Critical Darlings: The Secret Agent And The Increasingly International Academy

Summary

---

Blank Check with Griffin & David

Critical Darlings: The Secret Agent And The Increasingly International Academy
Date: February 19, 2026
Hosted by: Allison Wilmore, Richard Lawson (with Griffin Newman, David Sims)
Main Focus: Deep-dive on the Oscar-nominated Brazilian film The Secret Agent and the evolving place of international cinema in American awards culture.

---

Episode Overview

This episode dives into the internationalization of the Oscars, using The Secret Agent—a dense, political Brazilian film now making major awards noise—as a touchstone for wider trends. The conversation also explores recent international cinema at festivals (especially Berlin and Cannes), the politics (and messiness) of the international feature Oscar, and how art house, popular, and awards-friendly films intersect globally. The hosts, with their signature blend of insight and irreverence, also touch on the late Robert Duvall, festival culture, movie politics, and standout performances in The Secret Agent.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Remembering Robert Duvall

(Timestamp: 00:26–03:31)

• The hosts open by honoring the late Robert Duvall, recalling his legendary career, Oscar history, and memorable performances.
• Quote:
  “He was just such a natural in a way that I think was maybe taken for granted.” —Richard Lawson (03:09)
• Some gentle ribbing of how even titanic careers get distilled down to awards trivia in the Oscar-centric world.
• Duvall’s Oscar win: Tender Mercies (not The Great Santini or Deep Impact, despite Richard’s soft spot for the latter).

---

2. Berlin Film Festival Recap & International Festival Vibes

(Timestamp: 03:31–12:14)

• Richard, fresh from Berlin Film Festival, shares logistical and cultural quirks:
  • Berlin’s decentralized screenings feel “like the city is your campus.”
  • Less theatrical than Cannes or Venice—more subdued audience reactions (“no 10-minute ovations”) and reserved screening culture.
• Noted political tensions:
  • Press conferences saw debates over avoiding politics, triggering controversy.
  • Novelist Arundhati Roy withdrew in protest over a “movies aren’t political” stance.
  • Rupert Grint’s viral moment:
    “They asked him about fascism and he was like, obviously, I’M against it.” —Allison Wilmore (09:45)
• The uniquely charged context of Berlin’s recent past frames conversations about art, politics, and responsibility.

---

3. International Films on the Awards Trail: The Case of The Secret Agent

(Timestamp: 12:13–18:42)

• The Secret Agent’s awards journey has surprised many: acclaimed at Cannes but not considered a crowd-pleaser, it gained momentum through the season.
• The film’s challenging nature:
  • “It is a film that has rewarded multiple viewings... It’s also, like, not an easy film.” —Allison Wilmore (12:59)
• Winning the Spirit Award marked a “penetration into even basic voting bodies,” defying expectations for a “prickly and tricky and esoteric” film.
• Rapid recap of the 2025–26 international Oscar contenders and their varied fates at the box office and on the festival circuit.

---

4. The Global Art House vs. Domestic Blockbuster Dynamic

(Timestamp: 18:42–27:52)

• In Brazil, political/festival films like I’m Still Here and The Secret Agent perform well, but the local box office is otherwise dominated by Hollywood.
• International art house is often “made for” festival and critical attention more than native audiences:
  • “A lot of these films that end up on the festival circuit...their primary audience is the international festival circuit.”
    —Allison Wilmore (20:31)
• Comparison with other countries:
  • Many acclaimed international films are barely seen or banned in their home countries (e.g., Iran).
  • American audiences see a curated sliver of foreign cinema—mainly “serious” or art house titles; comedic and blockbuster hits don’t often cross over.
• Notable example: French “Les Bronzés” series and Iranian comedies/romcoms never get US releases.

---

5. The Byzantine Politics of the International Feature Oscar

(Timestamp: 30:23–36:41)

• Nomination isn’t automatic for the best film—a country’s national committee chooses which film to submit (often amid deep politics and cultural debates).
  • “It is Eurovision.” —Griffin Newman (34:42)
• National pride, political grudges, and internal cinema politics abound:
  • Example: France declining to submit Anatomy of a Fall, despite its later major Oscar nominations.
  • China now often submits nationalistic blockbusters—signaling a shift from playing for international approval.
• Countries sometimes “pass” films between themselves if circumstances warrant (e.g., French financing or directors in exile).

---

6. The Shifting Place of International Films in Best Picture & More

(Timestamp: 36:41–43:10)

• Historical rundown:
  • Non-English Best Picture nominees were rare until the 2010s and Best Picture expansion (only two in the 70s, none in the 80s; Parasite’s 2020 win a watershed moment).
• The Academy’s expanding, international membership helps drive this change.
• Ongoing debates:
  • Broader global membership may mean less receptivity to specifically African-American stories.
  • The myth that films with nonwhite leads don’t play overseas has been disproven but lingers in business strategy.
  • “It has long been used especially with like big studio movies to justify not spending on marketing.” —Allison Wilmore (43:01)
• Famous example:
  • The poster for 12 Years a Slave abroad, where only Brad Pitt is visible.

---

7. Deep Dive: The Secret Agent

(Timestamp: 43:21–84:43; spoilers from 61:01–84:43)

7a. What Makes the Film Work (Non-Spoilers)

• Period piece, yet deeply relevant:
  • About life under Brazil’s military dictatorship, but resonates with both the Bolsonaro era and universal modern anxieties.
  • “It also is this kind of, like, big, swaggering... at certain points, it’s an action movie... it’s colorful.” —Allison Wilmore (43:36)
• Style echoes 1970s American thrillers (“muscular New Hollywood swagger”).
• Lead actor Wagner Moura is praised for his grounding, magnetic presence:
  • “He has a... quality that, like, when he’s on screen, I feel safe... he so anchors everything in this like very chaotic place.” —Griffin Newman (45:34)
• The film’s texture: swinging “from warmth and vibrancy to the rot of government violence” in a single shot.
• Universal but specific: Depicts the everyday endurance and community under oppression—reminding us life, love, and even parties (Carnaval!) go on.
• Brazilian cultural love letter:
  • The film “does not do the very heavy handed, like, here’s a note” for outsiders.
    —Allison Wilmore (81:59)

7b. Spoiler Discussion

(Timestamp: 61:01–84:43)

• “He’s not a secret agent!” Title is a reference to a comic film showing at the local cinema; a red herring.
• Plot centers on deeply personal stakes: Moura’s character, Armando, isn’t involved in spycraft or organized resistance—his struggle is to preserve the memory of his family, especially his mother, whose existence is nearly erased by social forces of race/class.
• The finale:
  • The adult son, played in a subtle double role by Moura, is largely indifferent—his father’s memory faded, highlighting the fragility of history and memory.
  • “You remember my father better than I do.” —Allison Wilmore (68:07)
  • Powerful meditation on the loss and distortion of personal and national history over time, as well as on institutional memory (through the parallel with researchers’ audio tapes).
• The infamous “hairy leg” subplot—an urban legend in the film, both comic and chilling, is revealed as a symbol about distraction and distortion in the press.
• Casting praised: “This movie is so beautifully populated,” with standouts like Maria Thaísia Maria (Dona Sebastiana)—a nonprofessional actor with an instant cult following.

7c. The Film’s Political & Emotional Impact

• The hosts debate whether the film was built for international audiences (they think not; it’s deeply rooted in Brazilian culture, politics, and codes).
• Visual and narrative references, period-specific aesthetics, and loaded historical allusions offer a dense fabric for local viewers.
• Yet, the universality of its themes—corruption, resistance, memory, pride—resonate across borders.
  • “The more I talk about this movie, the more I think it is just a stone cold masterpiece.” —Griffin Newman (83:39)
• The “Viva Brazil!” moment at a US screening sparks reflection about national pride—how the film balances love and critique for a country.

---

8. Wagner Moura and the Best Actor Race

(Timestamp: 87:37–93:16)

• Moura’s nomination is seen as a surprise, but his likelihood to “pull an upset” has risen as The Secret Agent gains momentum.
• His American “profile” also helps—appeared in English-language roles (Netflix’s Narcos, Civil War).
• The rarity of non-English leads winning, but that could be changing:
  • “Here comes this, like, solid man... warmth. A warmth. Kind of nice masculinity.” —Richard Lawson (92:14)

---

9. Fun Anecdote: Il Postino and Psychological Experiments

(Timestamp: 93:17–96:51)

• Allison recounts participating in a psych experiment which involved watching Il Postino while being randomly shocked—a pop culture legend in the podcast.
• Griffin tracks down evidence that Il Postino has long been used in psychological studies as an emotionally neutral stimulus.

---

Notable Quotes

• “He was just such a natural in a way that I think was maybe taken for granted.” —Richard Lawson, on Robert Duvall (03:09)
• “They asked [Rupert Grint] about fascism and he was like, obviously, I'm against it.” —Allison Wilmore (09:45)
• “You can just pay to be a [Spirit Awards] voter... So that it really seems to be like penetrating even voting bodies that I think of as frankly being a little more... basic is interesting.” —Richard Lawson (14:33)
• “A lot of these films that end up on the festival circuit...their primary audience is the international festival circuit and not a domestic audience sometimes.” —Allison Wilmore (20:31)
• “It is Eurovision.” —Griffin Newman (34:42)
• “The more I talk about this movie, the more I think it is just a stone cold masterpiece.” —Griffin Newman (83:39)
• “You remember my father better than I do. Like, even this horrible image of, like, him as a child...I know I've created, like, this kind of like, stand in memory because my grandfather told me this, but, like, I don't remember it.” —Allison Wilmore (68:07)
• “Here comes this, like, solid man... warmth. A warmth. Kind of nice masculinity.” —Richard Lawson (92:14)

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:26–03:31 — Robert Duvall: Remembering the Actor
• 03:31–12:14 — Berlin Film Festival Recap & Context
• 12:13–18:42 — The Secret Agent’s Awards Journey and Reception
• 18:42–27:52 — Global Festival vs. Domestic Box Office; Art House vs. Pop
• 30:23–36:41 — How International Feature Oscar Noms Work
• 36:41–43:10 — International Films in Best Picture History & Academy Demographics
• 43:21–61:01 — The Secret Agent (deep dive, no spoilers)
• 61:01–84:43 — The Secret Agent SPOILERS: Plot, Themes, Casting, Climax
• 87:37–93:16 — Wagner Moura’s Awards Chances
• 93:17–96:51 — Il Postino Psychological Experiment Anecdote

---

Tone & Style

The hosts are smart, loose, and sharply funny, mixing rapid-fire film analysis with wry pop-culture asides. The episode is packed with cinephile detail but avoids pretension, inviting listeners to rethink both films and the awards ecosystem with humor and candor.

---

Conclusion

This episode offers a sweeping, nuanced look at the state of international cinema in the context of American awards, using The Secret Agent as a prism to discuss politics, history, storytelling, and the emotional core of movies. Listeners come away with a richer sense of both cinematic art and the machinery (and messiness) of global recognition.

---

Transcript

[Allison Wilmore]

Welcome to Critical Darlings, a conversation about the awards season. Conversation one contender at a time. Please welcome to the stage your hosts, Richard Lawson and Alison Wilmore.

[Richard Lawson]

Marie. Thank you as ever, for that wonderful introduction and for being a guest on the show last week. We don't have a guest this week, but we are, of course joined, as always, by producer Ben. Hello, Ben.

[Griffin Newman]

Viva Brazil.

[Richard Lawson]

Guten tak to you. We're mainly today gonna be talking about the Secret Agent, but also international films, their presence in America, in the box office and at the Oscars. I'll get into a little Berlin talk from. I was just at that film festival. But before we do that, we should acknowledge that this week the legendary Robert Duvall died at the ripe old age of 95. I was asked by Rolling Stone to contribute a little blurb for my favorite of his movie performances. And embarrassingly, I've seen him be great in many things, but I was like, I think he's wonderful in Deep Impact. And they were like, we don't want that. But obviously that's not one of it. But he's really good in it.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, no, he definitely is. And of course, because we do talk awards here, let us reduce that legendary career to a series of Oscar nominations.

[Richard Lawson]

It was impressive.

[Allison Wilmore]

And one win. Do you know what the win was for? I feel like it's not maybe the one you would expect.

[Richard Lawson]

Is it for Great Santini? No.

[David Sims]

Mm.

[Richard Lawson]

Mm.

[Allison Wilmore]

Tender Mercies.

[Richard Lawson]

Tender mercies.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. 1984.

[Richard Lawson]

Right, right.

[Allison Wilmore]

But was nominated for best supporting for Godfather, Apocalypse now, and then best actor, Deep Impact.

[Griffin Newman]

No, he did get a favorite supporting actor, Syfy, from the blockbuster entertainment.

[Allison Wilmore]

Aw, wait, for what? For Deep Impact?

[Richard Lawson]

For Great Santini.

[Allison Wilmore]

No, I appreciate it. No, I'm just like, they do. They divide them all up by genres. They're like, screw you. A comedy, musical, sci fi category. But yeah, Best Actor nominated for Great Santini for the apostle one.

[Richard Lawson]

That was big in the 90s. That was kind of a comeback for him in the 90s.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. And then Best supporting for A Civil Action and the Judge, that movie we all love and talk about.

[Richard Lawson]

And let me tell you, that judge nomination, he debases himself in that movie in one particularly graphic way.

[Allison Wilmore]

Okay.

[Richard Lawson]

That you're like, the Academy was like, oh, good God. We gotta, like, make sure this wasn't all for. Not like, we gotta give him the nom here.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, yeah, that's definitely a movie that I saw that does not live in my.

[Richard Lawson]

In any way in imax, because for whatever reason, it just played at the IMAX theatre in Toronto Festival. But no, he obviously an incredible actor, and I think that when I was younger, he just sort of existed in my movie consciousness because of various movies that my parents liked. And then the older I got and I revisited some of those things or even watched him in new stuff. I mean, he was acting well late into his life. He was just such a natural in a way that I think was maybe taken for granted. Because he was so natural, it didn't really seem. Even though he could be kind of big and blustery, it always just felt like. Well, that's just that. I know that man, you know?

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

One of those people that you take for granted because they have just been, you know, part of the.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

The foundations of moviegoing for so long. But, yeah. Richard, this morning you were in Berlin.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. Yeah. Good.

[Allison Wilmore]

And, Morgan, you're having a long day. Such is your dedication to the art of podcasting.

[Richard Lawson]

As you can hear, I kind of lost my voice. I actually spent about five days wandering around Berlin with a cold, so I felt very Tom Hanks and Bridge of Spies. And, you know, Berlin is a very modern city now and all that, but it still has a lot of vestiges of that sort of Cold war era. Like, a lot of the subway cars are like these boxy yellow things, and the streets aren't very brightly lit. Like, it felt very, like, atmospheric in that sort of spy movie way, which I enjoyed. Um, but I wasn't there for that. I was there for movies.

[Allison Wilmore]

You weren't there to go try and get into Berghain. Is that how you say it? I've actually never. Yes, okay.

[Richard Lawson]

I was. No. God, no.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[Allison Wilmore]

I would just need to know.

[Richard Lawson]

I know.

[Allison Wilmore]

You have to wait in line for a really long time, though. What if you just. You're like. You get the wave in and you're like, that's all I needed.

[Richard Lawson]

And you need your banned for life. Yeah, that would be it. No, I didn't try for that. Maybe another time. But it. It's an interesting trip, this Berlin Film Festival, because it's, like, it's in the winter, but it's not Sundance. You're in a big city, which a lot of the festivals, like Cannes is a big town, but there's a little, like, area where that festival happens. Ditto Park City, ditto Telluride. Obviously, Toronto, Venice even has its own sort of localized thing. There aren't screenings all over Venice, but in Berlin, they're all over the city. There is a festival hub where, like, the kind of main you know, all the big premieres for the competition films happen there, all that. But otherwise I was kind of just like riding the subway, seeing movies in different neighborhoods, which was kind of cool if it felt like a little bit. What's the thing they say about NYU kids? Like the city's your campus, you know, and people are like, I want a quad, I want a real campus. And I kind of felt a little bit of that here where I was like, I wish I kind of felt like I was with other festival people.

[Griffin Newman]

How German does it feel like? Do germans give like 10 minute long standing ovations? That seems somehow less German to me.

[Richard Lawson]

Not in my experience. I mean, I didn't go to any of the premieres, but like, apparently there was one movie called Rosebush Pruning that is like a Brazilian something else co production. It's in English and it was one of the big star studded movies. So like Callum Turner, Tracy Letts, Elle Fanning, Riley Keough, Jamie Bell were in it. And apparently it's quite bad. It's like an attempt at like. Oh, like it's Lanthimos former or frequent collaborator. The screenwriter.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, he wrote the co. Wrote the screenplays for Dogtooth Alps, the Lobster Killing, a sacred deer kind.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. So it's that sort of sensibility, but then mixed with this Brazilian director who made like Motel Destino and a couple other things. And it apparently went over so badly that there were some whistles of derision at the end of the press screening, but no booze. So I think it's a much more like reserved. Had that movie been at Cannes, from the sound of it, I didn't see it. I think people would have been really, you know, vocal about it. Of the big three Euro festivals bat, Cannes, Venice, it definitely feels the least like clamor, Pomp and circumstance, all that.

[Griffin Newman]

That's where the Golden Bear.

[Richard Lawson]

That's the Golden Bear, yeah. Dennis has the golden lion and Cannes. Well, the palm for the Golden Place gold is really the name of the game. And then the acting prize at Berlin is the Silver Bear, which used to be divided by gender, but I think about six years ago they combined it into one lead, one supporting, which Andrew Scott won last year for Blue Moon, which I think is kind of the first Oscar y movie that Berlin has.

[Allison Wilmore]

Had in a while.

[Richard Lawson]

In a while, like 45 years. The Andrew Haig film. That was a while ago. That led to a Charlotte Rampling nomination and some other buzz. But other than that, Berlin does not seem to function as like an awards.

[Allison Wilmore]

Clearinghouse in the context of awards, at least this is not the place that you would look to.

[Richard Lawson]

And even, like. And we're going to talk more this episode about, like, international films in how they play in America, especially at the awards. And I think even from that context, like, I don't know that a premiere in Berlin is giving a movie that, you know, a stateside distributor would want to have a high profile. I don't know if it's giving it that.

[Griffin Newman]

But there were American celebrities there. Wasn't there something with Calum Turner and Tracy?

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, that's the bad one that people hissed at.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, and there was some sort of viral thing.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, yeah. So someone at. So the press. So one at one. Yeah. A hallmark of these three big European film festivals and others, I'm sure, are these press conferences. And so you get all these journalists from all over, and then there's a panel of the director and the. The stars. And it's usually the morning of the premiere. So all of the cast from Rose Bush Pruning was doing that, I believe, on Friday morning. And some journalists asked Colm Turner, kind of assuming, so, you're gonna be James Bond. And Colum Turner was like, oh, I'm not gonna answer that. And then Tracy Letts said, oh, actually, I'm gonna be James Bond. But that was kind of a nice moment of levity because the press conferences this year at Berlin had mostly been mar. This very strange political discourse where the jury president, the director of Inventors, who's, you know, been around forever, is a kind of. He won a Palme d' or years ago. Like, he. For what? Wings of Desire, you know, a pretty respected director. And he basically said, like, we're not going to get into politics. Like, movies aren't political.

[David Sims]

Like.

[Richard Lawson]

And everyone was like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it kept coming up to the extent that the director of the festival issued their own press release saying, like, please refrain from like or something. Like, to the effect of, like, let's not drag politics into this where it doesn't need to be. And it was like.

[Allison Wilmore]

So, yeah, well, also, like Arundhati Roy, right, The novelist. She was supposed to be at the festival, and it was like a film she wrote in 1989. They had a restored version, and she, like, withdrew because she was so, like, irate at that sentiment that femmenders expressed. So I did really enjoy that. Someone, I guess, asked Rupert Grint a question about this at his press conference and led to the immortal quote. They asked him about fascism and he was like, obviously, I'M against it.

[Richard Lawson]

So I was, I was at dinner. Oh, that's one good thing. Amazing food in Berlin. I was at dinner with some colleagues and we were talking about that. And do you guys remember that when Rupert Grint, like, when the kids were like, old enough, the Harry Potter kids, old enough to like, maybe have access to the money they'd been earning, some journalist was like, what's the. Have you splurged on anything? And Rupert Grant was like, I bought an ice cream truck. And so I was imagining Rupert Grint driving his ice cream truck around one day, and all of a sudden it's just like a light bulb over his head. He was like, I oppose fascism, as the song is going, you know. But no, I'm glad. That was a bold stand.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, I know. I'm never gonna look up what the actual question was that he was asked, because I just prefer that it was.

[Richard Lawson]

How'S the ice cream truck doing? Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

Or someone was just like, fascism. It was like, obviously I'm against it.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

And then everyone just.

[Richard Lawson]

I mean, it's. It look. I mean, obviously, like, I don't. I'm not a German historian, not a European historian. Like, obviously Berlin is the locus of a lot of anxiety and, and you know, historical sort of reckoning over things that happened, you know, almost a century ago. And like, the Berlin, Berlin Ali palace, where like all of this stuff is happening is maybe not even a 10 minute walk from the Holocaust Memorial and all that. So, like, sensitivities are high. And I. And I understand. But it was just kind of interesting where, like, whereas at Cannes you kind of expect these crazy, like, political things to happen in like, Lars von Trier to like, make Kirsten Dunst look miserable while he talks about Nazis and stuff.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. Or like at the awards last year, I mean, a lot of people brought up Gaza, you know, so it is interesting to see.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, and we'll talk about, you know, Philharves films. Like, when I saw Aquarius at Cannes years ago, there was a huge, like, anti Bolsonaro protest on the red carpet. Like people holding banners and unfurling them in the theater. And Berlin just seemed really, at least this year, totally averse to any such expression or even like, questioning of the filmmakers. So that was kind of put a weird sort of mood in the air, I would say. And then the movies themselves, I didn't see that many. Cause I was sick and tired and like the schedule was kind of not. Didn't work in my favor.

[Allison Wilmore]

But you were there with a specific set of assignments so. Right.

[Richard Lawson]

No, no, I was just kind of there. No, I was just there. I mean, I had an ass. And I had to do a prisoner exchange with a sort of like.

[Allison Wilmore]

Well, that was just like. On your own time, though. On your own time.

[Richard Lawson]

So, yeah, I didn't see anything that I think will, like, set the world afire. Like, let's say the Secret Agent when it played at Cannes.

[Allison Wilmore]

But the Secret Agent, I feel like at Cannes was not necessarily the movie I would pick up to be like, this is going to start picking up a lot of steam. You know, I mean, we have, like, two international films that have really, you know, done quite well across these Oscars. You have sentimental value. You have the Secret Agent. Yeah, I don't. I mean, I saw the Secret. Both of those films at Ken. I saw the Secret Agent there. And it was a film I liked a lot, though. I like you. Was, like, pretty tired when I saw it. So I did not feel like I was giving it, like, my entire due. But it was not a film that I would have guessed would have.

[Richard Lawson]

No.

[Allison Wilmore]

Gone as far as it has, by any means. I mean, like, it, I think, is a film that has rewarded multiple viewings. I think it's a great film. It is one of my favorite films of the year. It's also, like, not an easy film.

[Richard Lawson]

No, it's not. And yet that it keeps winning and getting nominated, being nominated for and winning awards that like. Like it won at the Spirit Awards this past weekend. And not to knock that voting membership, but that's. You can just pay to be a member. You can just pay to be a voter. I think it's like something. A hundred bucks a year or something.

[Allison Wilmore]

I mean, this brings me to my eternal question. How real are, in this case, the Spirit Awards? I feel like they're approximately as real as the Gotham Awards. Right. Like, they have a bit of an edge.

[Richard Lawson]

They're a little realer than that.

[Allison Wilmore]

They're a little realer. I mean, they have a bit of an edge in that the nomination committee, which in this case is always kept secret, is larger.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. It's not really even known, like, how. Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

The Gotham Awards, the nominating committee is like, five critics.

[Richard Lawson]

And it's public.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yes, and it's public. No one ever knows who's on the nomination.

[Richard Lawson]

And there's photos of you being handed bags with dollar signs on them. And then there's writing that says, nominate celebrity.

[Allison Wilmore]

And then I scurry off going like.

[Richard Lawson]

The Berlin subway rattling above you. Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

Just like silhouette. In silhouette. Yeah. As opposed to that. You know, the Spirit Awards are very careful about keeping who's on the nominating committee secret, but it is more people, and I think people from across the film industry.

[Richard Lawson]

And they still have a budget cap, unlike the Gothams.

[Allison Wilmore]

They do still have a budget cap. Yeah. But then the people who vote on the actual awards are just anyone who wants to be a member of Film Independent.

[Richard Lawson]

Right. And so oftentimes with the Spirit Awards, like, you'll get a really interesting list of nominees. A lot of times I'm like, I haven't heard of that movie. Like, cool. That's something that I can check out. And then the winner is the most basic choice among those nominations. You know, it's the biggest celebrity in lead actor category, oftentimes the same in supporting. And so a movie like Secret Agent, I forget what it was nominated against, but like, winning the international feature one, it's like I thought that movie was kind of prickly and tricky and esoteric and sort of hard to kind of grasp. At least that's how I found it the first time I saw it. So that it really seems to be like penetrating. Even voting bodies that I think of as frankly being a little more like basic is interesting. And I guess maybe, I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, it was a surprise, right, that it. That we're talking about it, that it's like a best because everyone. It sort of seemed like it was just an accident the Iranian film was gonna get that slot.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. I mean, like, this year's Cannes was like. I thought like this past year's Cannes was a very good can, but it was a very internationally driven one, you know, not that it isn't always international. Like, we. Like the United States does not go there being like we are the center of the universe. I mean, it can. I mean, or we do do that. No one necessarily listens.

[Richard Lawson]

You had the. You had one big English language film in Die My Love, but. But Lynne Ramsey is from Mars. So, like, that doesn't.

[Allison Wilmore]

It doesn't count. Yeah, right. And you, you know, you had. Some of these did not stick. Julia Ducro Corneau's Alpha, which is coming out now, that never got any traction. It did not go over well.

[Richard Lawson]

Ben, were you a Tatan fan? Did you ever see Titan?

[Griffin Newman]

Her did.

[Richard Lawson]

No. I think you might like it. I think you might hate Alpha. Her follow up. That's probably the steepest Palme d' or win to like, complete disaster that I've seen in a while. I mean, in my campaign.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. It was not received well. Die My Love was There, Eddington was there. But neither of those has gotten the kind of awards traction. History of Sound was there, but Eddington.

[Richard Lawson]

Did great at the Turning Point USA Awards. They also misunderstood it, I think.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, okay. But, yeah, it was just an accident. Which won the Palme d'.

[Richard Lawson]

Or.

[Allison Wilmore]

You have Nouvelle Vague, the Richard Linklater.

[Richard Lawson]

Which at the time. It goes down easy. You know, it's kind of. It's sweet, it's sentimental. And that just. Yep.

[Allison Wilmore]

Didn't Began's resurrection, which went over really well with critics, even though it's way too long and it's just too, I think, like, difficult for. Yeah. The Secret Agent sentimental to value Seurat. Sound of Falling Seurat doing better than.

[Richard Lawson]

A lot of the movies you just named, like, kind of. It's like really surprising because that too is also really brutal and, you know.

[Allison Wilmore]

Harrowing and runs into certain taboos that I would not spoil here. But it deploys them so deliberately, like a statement, you know, you're talking about.

[Richard Lawson]

The techno music which we had banned. We had tried to ban in America.

[Allison Wilmore]

And I'm just like, it should be illegal.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

No one should be allowed to play techno music.

[Griffin Newman]

But I don't agree with this.

[Richard Lawson]

No, I'm kidding. I like it in Europe, you can.

[Allison Wilmore]

Get away with it. No, I like Seurat a lot. But yeah, that was a film. I was kind of surprised how well that has continued to do over. Also, the Mastermind, the Kelly Reichert film, which I love, was also in competition. I never expect Kelly Reichert to make a movie that is necessarily going to cause an enormous splash here. That's not really just the kind of movie she makes. But I feel like in a quieter year, maybe Josh o' Connor would have been more in the discussion, considering how.

[Richard Lawson]

Much he was in in 2025 and was good in all of the things he was in.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, he's so good in the Mastermind.

[Richard Lawson]

I love him in that. And you would have thought maybe something would have collect, like in combination, somehow he would have broken through. But yeah, Secret Agent. I don't know my guess about why that sort of endured post Cannes is that rewatching it, I was like, okay, there are accessible elements here. There's a sort of suspense angle. There's. You know, I also think that Brazil, it just sort of is looming a lot in, like, movie consciousness in America right now after I'm still here last year, political, you know, kind of parallels between our country and theirs. And obviously we've talked about it on this podcast. Like, Brazilian film fans are super activated. And so I think they've just permeated the consciousness of people in a way that. And also, you know, he's a great filmmaker.

[Allison Wilmore]

He is a great filmmaker. I mean, it's interesting because I do feel like the Secret Agent is a much weirder movie than I'm Still Here, right?

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

Like.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, what is it I'm still here about?

[Allison Wilmore]

So it's about a former Brazilian congressman who is just kind of, you know, not in politics at the time. He is, like, living this kind of lovely life with his family. And then he. But it continues to be a kind of, like, vocal figure, and he has basically just disappeared. And it is about the horror of that, but also just the aftermath and just, like, how it affects everyone else in the film.

[Richard Lawson]

Focusing primarily on his wife.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Where. Who was nominated?

[Griffin Newman]

Are these kinds of political films, like, mainstream in Brazil?

[Richard Lawson]

No, I don't think so. I think that it's kind of like, I remember years ago, I was saying to some French person at Cannes, I was like, wow, you guys are so lucky. I mean, all of your movies have plenty. You know, they were like, richard, no, the popular French movies are the worst comedies you've ever seen. Terrible action movies. Like, it's not that dissimilar, I think. I mean, I don't know for sure.

[Allison Wilmore]

I did look this up. If you look up the Brazilian box office for 2025, the. The top slate of movies for, like, is all just, like, Hollywood studio stuff for, like, a long stretch. But then 13 was I'm still Here, which did really well, you know, and. And Secret Agent did not do quite as well, but, like, it still did. It made, like, over $6 million, I believe, domestically in Brazil, which is a lot of money, you know, so these are not small films. But I feel like it raises. I feel like what you're getting at a bit is a lot of these films that end up on the festival circuit are made. You can argue that their primary audience is the international festival circuit and not a domestic audience sometimes.

[Richard Lawson]

There were also forces within the government, you know, past administrations in Brazil that were kind of actively suppressing these films. And, you know, in something as, like, ultimately petty, as, like, not nominating it or not submitting it for the Oscars, but in other ways being more regressive about it.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. I mean, and certainly in some countries, like in Iran, you know, a lot of the films that are the most lauded internationally, you know, these films from Iran are not shown because they're all banned. Right. Like, they don't get approval to be shown in theaters. And oftentimes the filmmakers are living in exile. So.

[Richard Lawson]

And I think that sometimes that's like, a really beautiful function of something like Cannes. Although sometimes I can detect there's. I don't know, maybe I'm being silly, but like a sort of like, are we being a little patronizing here? Like, I remember there was this movie at Cannes years ago called Rafiki, and it was from Kenya, and it was, I think, the first Kenyan film ever to be, like, in a competition at Cannes. And it was about two teenage girls who fall in love in Nairobi. And it was a sweet movie, first time filmmaker, like, nice energy to it. It wasn't like, the best movie anyone's ever seen, but it was, like, solid. And I think it maybe won an award or something or was at least close to. And the Kenyan government had banned the movie from playing in. In. In Kenya. And. And a lot of people on the ground at Cannes were like, well, we're going to show them and we're gonna, you know, look, the rest of the world will teach that. And I. And I understand that sentiment, but I think sometimes, I don't know, it can feel a little bit like, let's not overstate what this festival's doing to the politics of another country.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, I think it's also. It's an impossible to resolve divide. Like, I was talking to a filmmaker who'd grown up in Iran, and I'm not gonna blow up his spot, but was just talking just, like, so much shit about other. I was like, oh, the world of, like, the Iranian filmmakers is just as small and petty as, like, all other kind of, like, you know, artistic worlds where everyone is also placed directly in competition. Everyone has their, like, friends and then their. Their enemies. But he was. He was talking about just like, that frustration of feeling like, there is pressure for you to also. I mean, there is, like, people that want to hear stories about how awful things are right. In your repressive country, because that's a symbol of, like, one, like, you're speaking out against this. And also, like, you know, it is offering this insight into, like, what life is like there. But obviously it's like, a particular kind of insight. And, like, he was talking about how. Yeah, on, like, on one side, he's like, I don't support the regime. Like, obviously. And on the other side was like. But also, it feels so uncomfortable to be, like, kind of like, always leaning into that for the benefit of, like, international audiences who watch that and feel kind of Very, like self satisfied about what. Yeah, like kind of what they're showcasing and why.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, like my idea of life in Tehran is like, if I was just like reading all of those movies one way, it's like, oh God, everyone's just walking around completely miserable there. And I don't think that's. People like find a way to live. You know, an old therapist used to say, even during the Siege of Leningrad, people took piano lessons. You know, like, life goes on. And I do think that the best of these Iranian films or whatever, you know, from other countries that are dealing with real political hardship, like, they do show at least some aspect of that. Like, I don't know, I think two.

[Griffin Newman]

English films or films from Great Britain, they are so sold on their Britishness and. And that kind of just becomes a market reality when you're trying to sell things to an American market, which is one of, if not the largest English speaking market certainly, oh, 100%.

[Richard Lawson]

And if you look at like Oscar, like history, like 80s 90s, there have been different waves of a sort of Anglophilia within the academy of like Billy Elliot and Full Monty kind of ushered in this sort of like, you know, pip, pip, sort of like quirky, cute, like, let's put on a show British movie, you know, the. The Working Title, a production company, distributor in the uk. Those sort of like glossier romantic comedies that Americans became addicted to for a while and thus Britain, the film industry there became addicted to because they could make them and sell them overseas. Yeah, there's just as much fetishization there as there can be with other stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

Or, I mean, you brought up France and like, you know. Yes. Like for a long time American art house cinemas were sustained by talky French dramas about infidelity. Right. Like, like that was just like, with.

[Richard Lawson]

A woman's name as the title.

[Allison Wilmore]

Exactly. Like that was just. And like, you know, to the point where especially like as like a teenager with. Those were the. Mostly the French films I was exposed to. I was just like, well, this is what they watch in France all the time. And then you go to France and all of the posters are for something called like Les Bronze, like a sex comedy about like these middle aged friends going to, you know, on vacation together or. I don't know. I was looking at the highest grossing French film in France last year was like the fifth, fourth or fifth installment in a comedy series called like God Save the Touche, I think it's called, which as far as I can tell is about this weird family who wins the lottery in the first installment and then just keep ending up in fish out of water situations in different parts of the world. I apologize if I'm miscategorizing that. Yes, I do think, like, this most recent one, did they end up in the uk, but yeah, like, like those do not come.

[Richard Lawson]

So we're going to do a Patreon podcast.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yes, all of the Touche. The Touche series, those films do not come over here. Right. Like, and I think there is also an interesting phenomenon where you have, I mean, like, the most. The highest grossing film in Iran is a comedy that came out in 2024 called 70 30, you know, does not come out here. Like, there is like a particular. There are market forces that also in particular, like, we still mostly play international films here in the context of art house. Right. So, like, we don't have a lot of places to play something like a broad French comedy beyond the fact that I don't think we would necessarily get the jokes. You know, like, it feels very, like the humor feels very specific. Where is that going to come out?

[Richard Lawson]

You know, films from India, from various, you know, Tollywood and Bollywood, those play at, you know, in New York City. They'll play at one of the bigger multiplexes for a weekend or two. And some anime especially, increasingly, it does, weirdly, even though that's, I don't know, it feels like K Pop Demon Hunter sort of broke the seal on that.

[Allison Wilmore]

Well, there's also been. I mean, there have been one offs of all of these. Like, like, it'll be a film attached to an anime series. It will do, like, enormous numbers, you know, like those, those are wildly popular in its, like, kind of own way that I feel like clearly is speaking to people who love a series and want a communal experience with other fans. But yeah, you have like, Indian films that are often sometimes like huge hair, but are marketed almost exclusively to a.

[Richard Lawson]

Diaspora audience in bigger cities where there's.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, yeah, Chinese blockbusters will play. If you go to the 42nd Street AMC here in the top floors, they will often have like, you know, like Chinese blockbusters that also are not marketed outside of diaspora audiences. Films from the Philippines, like romantic comedy, like, there is just a whole realm of, like, popular international cinema that for the most oftentimes, we do not even hear about.

[Emily Yoshida]

David this episode. Don't act so surprised because it's a familiar friend. This episode's brought to you by Mubi Yawn.

[David Sims]

Just kidding.

[Emily Yoshida]

Comfortable.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[Emily Yoshida]

We love them.

[David Sims]

They are a global film company that champions great cinema. Iconic directors, emerging auteurs, there's always something new to discover with Mubi. Each and every film hand selected so you can explore the best of cinema. Nothing more to say, I guess.

[Griffin Newman]

Wrong.

[Emily Yoshida]

There's a new film coming to theaters.

[David Sims]

Yep, movie theaters. February 13th. The first Nigerian film ever in official competition.

[Emily Yoshida]

Again, that's pretty wild.

[David Sims]

This is a film by Akanola Davis called My Father's Shadow. It was BAFTA nominated, poetic, tender portrait of a father son bond framed within the political landscape of 1993, Lagos in Nigeria. It is about a father and two young sons as they journey into and around the vibrantly rendered Nigerian metropolis, reckoning their relationship, navigating the city that's in the middle of a democratic crisis. Written by real life brothers Akanola Davis Jr. And Wally Davis.

[Emily Yoshida]

Love it.

[David Sims]

Brothers co wrote this groundbreaking feature debut. And you've got Sofie Derisu. Oh, from Slow Horses. I love him. I hope I'm saying his name right, but he's a really good actor and he's the star. It's worth seeing. It's in theaters. It's great to go to a theater.

[Emily Yoshida]

It's in theaters. We love that Mubi puts Mubies in theaters before ultimately ending up on their wonderful platform.

[David Sims]

Dang.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Emily Yoshida]

I'm just looking at some of the stuff they got right now. Die, my love. Of course.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Emily Yoshida]

An important watch, a necessary watch for any blankie. La Graza La Grazia, the new Paolo Sorrentino movie which I missed in theaters. Good moment to catch up with it. The great shall we dance? Oh, the classic, the original.

[David Sims]

Oh my goodness. That's fun. Like a restoration.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Emily Yoshida]

And look what they. They got a collection called Heartthrob. Nicolas Cage. It's young, dreamy Cage.

[David Sims]

Wow. Still dreaming to me.

[Emily Yoshida]

Hey, you're very open hearted.

[David Sims]

Anyway, to stream the best of cinema, you can try MUBI free for 30 [e-mail] blankcheck that's m u b I dot com. Blank check for a whole month of great cinema for free and then go see My Father's Shadow in theaters, please. Thank you for listening.

[Richard Lawson]

Thank you.

[David Sims]

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

[Emily Yoshida]

Thank you, very kind.

[Griffin Newman]

So something I have always wondered about or been confused by is the process by which a film becomes an international nomination because it's different. It sort of seems like there's a Eurovision sort of situation where countries submit films, but you can apparently submit a film that's not from your country because it was just an accident. Was the French.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, it was the French.

[Griffin Newman]

How does all of this work?

[Richard Lawson]

So what happens Is there's a Japanese lightning God named Raiden, and he'll travel around and recruit various movies to compete against. He's really busy.

[Allison Wilmore]

Like that time of year. He's just zapping around.

[Richard Lawson]

I always see him, like, drunk at, like, Cannes parties. It's really embarrassing.

[Allison Wilmore]

Like, you need a vacation now.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, it'll just zap away. No, I mean, it is up to the discretion of each country. Some of the selection committees, I think, are much more tied to the government than in other some countries. It's more independent. I mean, obviously they are in some way affiliated with the government because the film is representing that country to the extent that when Almodovar won Spain got that Oscar, he didn't get that Oscar, even though he held it on stage. But I think it really depends on the country in terms of it's oftentimes very political. There was that thing a couple years ago where there was a film from India called All We Imagine is Light that was at Cannes a few years ago. It performed very well at Cannes, which is somewhat rare for an Indian film. The knock against it from people who are much more closely associated with the Indian film industry is like, well, it played well at Cannes because it plays like a western movie. Like, it has this similar style to like a French indie that you might see at Cannes. It's kind of dreamy and sort of. It has. It uses more Western film grammar. And then the Indian. The board in India that would select what gets submitted to the Oscars picked a different film that they said in a statement better reflects India. And everyone was outraged because this female directed movie that everyone had loved at Cannes that a lot of Western people really loved was not chosen as the selection. And they said, well, that's so stupid, because it would have gotten nominated and that would have been huge for India. But in that case, the board of people deciding that didn't really care if it affected their Oscar chances.

[Griffin Newman]

Would that other film have been still eligible for Best Picture?

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, yeah, yeah, very much so. It's just that one category that has this kind of weird submission process that a lot of people think should be done away with. They've made some effort to correct it. Where they do, like, the long list thing now, they just. Because it used to just be, is there a French film? It's getting nominated. And now that's changed a bit. Like, they've tried to diversify what movies these, you know, the nominated people are seeing. But in the case of a movie like it was just an accident this year, or Seed of The Sacred Fig, another Iranian film that went through Germany in its Oscar campaign. A country can, if there is some connection, I believe it was just an accident, had some French financing and sea to Sacred Fig, Mohammad Rosslov, the director of that, was living in exile in Germany at the time. And so there was a connection enough to the country that they were like, our stuff is not that good. We'll just do this. And it's political goodwill.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. It's also, there's so much politicking. I mean, like, famously, a few years ago, France did not pick Anatomy of a Fall. Right. Which did go on to get a Best Picture and Best Director nomination and won a screenplay. Yeah. They chose the Taste of Things instead, which is with Juliette Binoche, a movie I also really liked. But that caused a minor controversy. People thought it was because Justine Triat had criticized Macron in his speech. I believe, like, people were kind of like pinning that. I mean, it was also like Anatomy of All is in a mix of languages, including English, which kind of like, that raises a question about, like, whether it has to be a certain percentage of. Not in the English language. But I think also then, according to a friend of mine, that led to a lot of voters feeling like they shouldn't vote for a Taste of things, especially in Europe, which sucks.

[Richard Lawson]

Because that movie was good. Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

But that, because they were. Felt like it was, you know, they had to kind of punish France. And so there's all kinds of politicking behind the scenes. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So it is Eurovision.

[Allison Wilmore]

It is Eurovision.

[Richard Lawson]

It is Eurovision. Yeah. Look, imagine this. And I'm saying imagine it for different administrations. Imagine if the US had to do this, like, for, like, if the Oscars were not American. If, let's say the Oscars happen every year in Amsterdam and we're trying to get American movies, like, attention that it's hard to get. Imagine the Trump administration, what movie? I mean, they would be picking. They'd be like, can we do Sound of Freedom for the fourth year in a row?

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Or whatever.

[Allison Wilmore]

Of course. Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Or like Brett Ratner's Rush Hour 4 would definitely be that. When that gets made.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. I mean, I was thinking about the year, like India chose like last film show for their submission, which did not. It got shortlisted, it did not get far and it's fine. But it was like one that year. There were, I think, a bunch of kind of like starry eyed films about film and the magic of movies. Right. And you're like, yeah. You can see them being like, this is what we gotta do to get It. We gotta. Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And so when they're submitting a film, do they tend to go more political or artier or like, it can be.

[Allison Wilmore]

All over the place. I mean, I think it's always interesting to look at what like China submits now, especially recently, you know, like, Like China has like, increasingly had its own like, enormously homegrown, kind of like blockbuster, you know, world of blockbusters that make enormous amounts of money. And sometimes when you look at earlier, you. You have films from like, Jang Yi Mo, you have films, you know, from these different filmmakers whose films played really well on the international circuit. And like in more recent years, these have just all been like. Some of which are just like, yes, like big blockbusters like The Wandering Earth 2, you know, was their submission a few years ago, Wolf Warrior 2, like a super nationalistic, like, action movie. There almost is this like, fuck you. Like, we don't need to play by your game anymore. It doesn't matter.

[Griffin Newman]

Alternatively, so over the weekend I saw Kokuho, the. What'd you call me? The Japanese submission for best foreign film that also did get a best Makeup Oscar. And that movie, which is like Kabuki, Star is Born sort of thing, makes a lot of sense because it's about this sort of Japanese cultural heritage. And then in 2021, they submitted drive My Car, which won.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. Which got a Best Picture nomination as well. Yeah, I mean, it's. I think, like there is an interesting tension always between. I mean, Kokuho was like a very successful film in Japan, like an enormous hit. But yeah, it also feels like it is very much showcasing an idea of Japanese ness that, you know, should. Should be pretty clear to audiences and.

[Richard Lawson]

We should look to what the Japanese government is right now and versus what it was during the Drive My Car year. Like, like the, the administration's changed. It's become a bit more, you know, conservative and, and, you know, and I think that the, the one heartening thing about this byzantine kind of like process with the different countries having their own agendas, is that for many, many, many years that was the only route that a non English language, non American or British film really had toward the kind of awards attention that, yes, can lead to financial, you know, success, all that. Increasingly these movies now are like. Well, actually with 10 best picture nominees to fill, like we could actually get them. It's okay if they don't get. Not that their country doesn't submit them because maybe they'll do well anyway, you know, and obviously Parasite broke the dam in terms of being the first international film to win. No, to win. Best Picture ever. Yeah, I did it. I did a rough tally, if anyone's curious of. And I could be wrong. Cause I might have missed something here or there. But I only went back to the 70s. In the 70s, there were two non English language films nominated for best picture.

[Allison Wilmore]

Both Swedish.

[Richard Lawson]

Both Swedish.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Cries, Whispers, the immigrants, Cries of Whispers. None in the 80s. Not a single one. And granted, this was back when there were only five Best Picture nominees for any given year. 95 had two in Il Postino, which was sort of a sentimental hit with.

[Allison Wilmore]

And obviously a formative Clockwork Orange style viewing experiment for the.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, Life is Beautiful, obviously, which did win some things. Crouching Tiger in 2000. So then we're in the 2000s or the aughts. Crouching Tiger. And then 2006 has two that I think are sort of like nebulous. One is Letters From Iwo Jima, which is in Japanese and stars Japanese actors, but it's directed by Clint Eastwood and it's a Hollywood production, so that's kind of dubious. But that same year is also Babel, which is a big international co production with some big movie stars in it in Brad Pitt and Cate Blanchett and then, you know, other segments that are not in English. The artist in 2011, also kind of dubious.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Because it's a Harvey Weinstein production, but it's French filmmakers.

[Allison Wilmore]

But also it's. It's.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

Silent for the most part. Yeah, yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

And then something changes in 2012 and this is around when they start expanding the Best Picture, you know.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, it was. It 2010 was when they announced they were expanding, Right? Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

So Amor, the Michael Haneke film about dementia, that is one of the most harrowing movies you could ever sit through. But also beautiful, that broke through and got a Best Picture nomination, a Best Director nomination and a Best Actress nomination. Then it took. Then Roma happened, which again, Netflix, it's a little bit whatever, but that is, you know, a Mexican production. Parasite wins in 2019. In the 2000s, things have picked up. You know, if you think about the 80s had zero in the 2000s alone, you could count Minari to some extent. Drive my car. Big one. Two in 2022, which were all quiet on the Western front. And Triangle of Sadness, some in English, but not an American production. Anatomy of a Fall, which won a screenplay Oscar. Emilia Perez, which is winning all this year's Oscars as well as last year's. And I'm Still Here. So that was two in the best picture lineup in 2024 and we have two this year in Secret Agent and Sentimental Value. So things seem to be progressing. Only Parasite has one. But it's still great that all of these movies and more in other categories are like part of the party now.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. And I think, you know, we can't talk about this without noting that at this point the Academy is I think like a quarter international, like in terms of where they're based.

[Richard Lawson]

On their mother's side.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, on their mother's side. And you know, the Academy has made a really kind of like, like aggressive move to expand its membership, but particularly to expand its membership in terms of diversity, which has been long been criticized for. And part of the way it's done that is by becoming more international, which you could speak to another testament to the sad state of America, the American film industry, where they just ran out of kind of people to invite who are not white men, I guess, or.

[Richard Lawson]

And there has been some criticism that I don't think can be founded in anything but like a feeling right now necessarily is that for all of the good that making the branches like the Academy as a whole more international and that you bring in different filmmakers, more exciting films from all over the world is that these people are also bringing in some other prejudices, you know, And I know one thing that people are concerned about in terms of like the performance of the nickel boys or perhaps even sinners ultimately in March this year is that like that stories about black Americans might not be of interest to like 70 year old French directors who are now part of the Academy, you know, which is, you know, white French directors, I should say, which like again is not based in any fact, but it's necessarily. But it's based on sort of lived experience and intuition based on what we know about various other countries, film industries and.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, there is, it's a long been held as like a kind of like ironclad fact, though it's actually not. It's like much more complicated than this that like films about, you know, characters of color just don't perform as well abroad. I think that like the numbers have actually proven that is not the case. But it has long been used especially with like big studio movies to justify.

[Richard Lawson]

Not spending on marketing and not.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, exactly. And kind of like not counting on these films giving them as big a boost as you would a blockbuster starring a white character.

[Griffin Newman]

I think about the poster of 12 Years a Slave in which it's just like Brad Pitt is the only character on It.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yep. Yeah. It's a kind of amazing, famous one.

[Richard Lawson]

Literally horrifying. Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. Well, let's turn our attention to the Secret Agent, a film that addresses tricky.

[Richard Lawson]

Issues of race and class and politics and. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a really dense movie that, while a period piece, speaks to. To hear analogy.

[Allison Wilmore]

But I think one of the reasons that I think it is done so well is that it also is this kind of, like, big, swaggering kind of. Like, at certain points, it's an action movie. At certain points, it's a thriller. You know, like, it's colorful. It is like. Yeah. You know, and I think, you know, Griff brought up a great point when we were talking about Marty supreme, which is like.

[Richard Lawson]

We were talking about Marty supreme with Griffin Dunn, though.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, he just always comes by, actually. We're always like, here he is again. Griffin D. Griffin Dunn. If you ever want to come on the podcast, I would love to have you. That, like, this feels like a 70s. It has a bit of this, like, muscular 70s, like, you know, new Hollywood swagger, like, in terms of not just its setting, you know, and that, like, the really, like, rich, saturated colors that it has that feel like they evoke this.

[Richard Lawson]

He's singing the like. Like. Like, it. It feels there. There are aspects to it that feel a little bit like the conversation or something like that, and. But also, like, you watch, like, Costas G versus Z from. From that era. Like, it also has that vibe, which I grant is not American, but, like, has that fun, shaggy, 70s energy that's also sophisticated intellectually and politically, and that's a really interesting, heady mix, I think.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. And then, you know, you have Wagner Mora, who. I've seen it so many things before. You know, he has been kind of, like, working in Hollywood, in American productions a lot in more recent years, you know, including. Well, he was in Narcos, the Netflix, kind of like one of those really big.

[Richard Lawson]

And I. Wasn't there some controversy that a Brazilian was playing famous Colombian Pablo Escobar?

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, that would make sense.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, I think there was a little bit. Some people from Colombia were like, wait a second.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. And then, you know, he was in Civil War. He was in Dope Thief. He's been working a lot. An actor I've always liked. But, yeah, when he comes on screen, he gets out of the little yellow, like, VW beetle in this in his sandals and his, like, scruff and his, like, polo shirt open to a very 70s length down his chest. I was like, oh, wait, Dr. Mora is like, the most handsome man alive.

[Griffin Newman]

He has a, like, safe quality that, like, when he's on screen, I feel safe.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And I feel calm. And he so anchors everything in this, like, very chaotic place, both politically, but also in terms of, like, there was just a party happening at all times. And when you're with him, his soft, soothing ASMR voice.

[Allison Wilmore]

No.

[Richard Lawson]

There's a warmth to him. Yeah. And actually, I think that's what made his performance as Escobar so compelling was because he was, like, really sympathetic. I mean, you know, this man was doing horrible things. But compared to the cops on that show, you're like. But he so has that quality there to describe it. No, I mean, he's perfectly cast in this.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. And I mean, I think, like, I was rewatching it, you know, in preparation for this, and that there's a little scene where he first. Cause he's, like, returned to Recife, which is where director Claire Mendoza Filho is from, and kind of resets all of his movies, aside from Baccarau. He picks up his child, which is the reason, one of the reasons he's come back to this, to this, his hometown. And he is, like, driving with his son in the backseat and, like, listening to his son talk about, like, Jaws, which he's obsessed with, and just, like, reaches his hand back to, like, hold his son's hand. And there's something that is just so, like, very unforcedly, just speaks to this enormous affection, you know, that you believe it so much. It does feel. I think a lot of this film feels. And not in a dreamy way, but it feels like it is informed by Filio's, like, memories of this era in this. Like, you know, a lot of this film is a bit about this child and kind of, like how much we retain in terms of memory and how much gets lost and especially with no physical records. And I think there is that touch of memory, not in a way that's distant, but in a way that feels warm, like you're remembering this warm moment from your childhood.

[Griffin Newman]

You mentioned the first scene, which I think is so important and is one of these opening scenes that serves as sort of a metaphor for the film as a whole, in which maybe we should just describe it as, like, there's a. He arrives in this little.

[Allison Wilmore]

It's like a little gas station on the road, and there's a dead body that's, like, just there, covered by a cardboard box, basically. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. And the cops arrive, and it sort of seems like they're going to inspect this body. But instead they just take him down.

[Richard Lawson]

They take him down for a fry.

[Griffin Newman]

And you can sort of. It's incredibly tense, but. But is also there's this unspeakable thing that we cannot speak about that's just in the background. We don't know this guy's name. I think we learned that he's like a thief.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, he tried to rob the station.

[Griffin Newman]

But otherwise is not a presence in the rest of the film. It's just this kind of thing that hangs over it.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, there's a lovely image of Maura and this lovely yellow car and this landscape behind him. And then right, you know, 15ft away is a rotting dead body. And that's the kind of feeling the dogs keep trying to eat throughout the rest of the film is like, you know, that seems to have been, at least in this movie's memory or estimation, like the sort of bizarre juxtaposition of life in parts of Brazil then was like this loveliness, this warmth, this vibrancy. Carnival's happening, all this stuff is happening. And yet next door or down the street or right in front of me is this the rot of government, the violence of government, you know, all this stuff. But it's not heavy handed when it does that, which I think is hard to do.

[Allison Wilmore]

I do think one of the reasons this movie has performed so well, despite not being conventional by any means in the terms of the path it takes is that it is about the experience of living under a kind of a dictatorship. Right. Which is to say these certain things are so fundamentally broken in ways that make life unstable and hard to count on.

[Emily Yoshida]

Right.

[Allison Wilmore]

Like yeah, the police come around and instead of, of doing their job, they just like shake you down for money.

[Richard Lawson]

The.

[Allison Wilmore]

There's just so much naked corruption. Like the. What we learn about the. The main character who's. Whose name is Armando but goes by Marcello or Marcelo. Sorry. Throughout most of the movie is that, you know, like he basically ran into this like corrupt businessman who has also like had ties like very high up in the. To the government and it basically destroyed his life. But like, like to show the ways that all of those things are so broken and at the same time, day to day life continues, right. Like Carnival continues. Like it. Like the bustle outside.

[Richard Lawson]

People are taking piano lessons.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, people are taking piano lessons. People are going to jobs. Yeah, they're going to see jobs. Or the Omen, which features in quite.

[Richard Lawson]

A few recording podcasts about awards shows.

[Allison Wilmore]

Exactly, exactly. And I do think that is part of the reason. I think it speaks to people so much, you know, even as it is like a kind of. Of beguilingly weird movie for ways we can get into later. It is about the kind of the juxtaposition of living under this totally kind of like a government that has thrown out all of the rules, you know, And I think there's one point where Maura's character, like, is describing what happened to him, and he's just so. He's not outraged in, like, a kind of, like, blistering, like, angry way. He's outraged in that way of just being like, I'm sorry that I should have to even find myself in this situation. It is so unjust, but also so absurd. Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

And I think the way that the film is careful to, you know, we have our hero, we have our antagonists, but even those antagonists are given these curious, humanizing anecdotes and vignettes. And, you know, the young assassin and, you know, his older colleague and these kind of corrupt policemen in town. Like, yes, they're bad guys, but also they're also kind of looking out for each other and they're trying to get by in this horrid system that has sort of put them in this place. I mean, they're feeding off of it certainly more than other people are. But, like, the way that it shows this sort of sprawl of life during wartime, essentially like life, you know, that very few people involved are these kind of cinematic, monolithic villains. They are people who have been, to varying degrees, corrupted by something above them.

[Allison Wilmore]

David.

[Richard Lawson]

What?

[Emily Yoshida]

Do you know what that was? Roadrunner motivation. That's how quickly it comes and goes, baby.

[David Sims]

I felt like it was more like a roadrunner, like the cartoon.

[Emily Yoshida]

Yeah, but roadrunners come and go.

[Richard Lawson]

They go F1.

[Emily Yoshida]

Here's a new. Another impression I have. Ding Dong. That's not a ding dong. That's my impression of bad habits.

[Richard Lawson]

You're right about that.

[Emily Yoshida]

They show up even when you don't feel like it.

[David Sims]

I thought you just meant that it's a bad habit that you lean on a ding dong for ad reads sometimes.

[Emily Yoshida]

No, that's a good habit. That's smart business strategy. And AG1 is the easiest habit that you can start now.

[David Sims]

Wow.

[Emily Yoshida]

To support consistency even when motivation isn't perfect. Perfect. All parts of this ad are really speaking to me right now. Especially in February, the month that sucks, when January motivation dips and winter routines need a reset. I added the month that sucks, and that was not in the copy. But let me be clear. Despite being my birthday month, it's it's empirically the worst month.

[David Sims]

It's a pretty tough month.

[Emily Yoshida]

It's a month for losers.

[David Sims]

Clearly what's getting you past is that little scoop of green power.

[Emily Yoshida]

Kind of the only thing that's getting me through. See, most supplements overcomplicate things with tons of pills and confusing timing and impossible schedule to maintain long term. But AG1 simplifies your nutrition. Multivitamin, pre and probiotics, superfoods and antioxidants all in one scoop. It's an easy daily reset that brings foundational nutrition no matter what your schedule throws at you.

[David Sims]

Can you confirm some things for me?

[Emily Yoshida]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Does it take 20 seconds to put one scoop into 8 ounces of water?

[Emily Yoshida]

If even that.

[David Sims]

If even you're saying you've got down to 15.

[Emily Yoshida]

They call me fast hands Griffey gnomes for a reason.

[David Sims]

What do you stir it with?

[Emily Yoshida]

The scooper?

[Griffin Newman]

That was my question.

[David Sims]

You don't use a different stirrer or.

[Emily Yoshida]

If you get the starter kit, they give you the shaker bottle.

[David Sims]

I get very, you know, I want a good stir.

[Emily Yoshida]

Then you can do that.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[Emily Yoshida]

You got options. Ask me other questions.

[David Sims]

The new next gen formula, does it have more vitamins and minerals than ever? Clinically proven?

[Richard Lawson]

Obviously, bro.

[Emily Yoshida]

Obviously.

[David Sims]

How about like some energy support? B vitamins?

[Richard Lawson]

Superfood.

[Emily Yoshida]

Absolutely chock full.

[David Sims]

Now you don't. Everyone already knows this, but you use this every single day. Correct?

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[David Sims]

And your favorite flavor is. I know you like to rotate, but.

[Griffin Newman]

Is it still citrus?

[Emily Yoshida]

Yes, I'm a citrus boy.

[David Sims]

But they've got the berry, they've got the tropical.

[Emily Yoshida]

Oh boy do they.

[David Sims]

They've got original.

[Emily Yoshida]

Original. And sometimes nothing hits like a classic.

[David Sims]

AG1 has over 50,000 verified 5 star reviews and comes with a 90 day money back guarantee for a limited time only. Go to drinkag1.com check to get a free AG1 flavor sampler and AGZ sampler to try all the flavors. Plus free vitamin D3, plus K2 and AG1 welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. This is a limited time offer only available while supplies last. That's drinkag1.com check drinkag1.com check.

[Griffin Newman]

It's about something that we can obviously relate to now, but it's also specifically about not only this past military dictatorship, but also the Bolsonaro regime and Wagner. Mora spoke about this when we saw him accept that award.

[Allison Wilmore]

You know, especially given, I think a certain amount of national envy here about what happened. You know, how the response was to, you know, the balls and narrow government and like, the end of the Bolsonaro government versus, you know, maybe certain more local.

[Richard Lawson]

I mentioned Aquarius, the first of his films that I saw in 2016 at Cannes, and that is set in the present day with the great Sonia Braga living in Recife. And, you know, and that's very much smaller about some basically, government officials trying to get her out of her beloved condo or her apartment so they can do some, like, gentrification, redistricting, whatever. And that, you know, compared to something like Baccarat, which is this violent, you know, sort of like pushback against predacious capitalism and whatever, and Secret Agent, which is, you know, much more forceful in its sort of political, you know, intent. Aquarius seems sort of quaint. And yet that was the movie during the Bolsonaro government that had this huge protest at the. At the. You know, I mean, it was. People were in support of the film, but they had, you know, banners and all this stuff. And, yeah, this has been on his mind, the filmmaker's mind for a long time. And it's interesting to see that in some ways, only after the Bolsonaro era had somewhat ended did he feel like he could go and make the film. Even though it's a period piece about a different regime that was sort of more full bodied about what that is.

[Allison Wilmore]

I think it's also like, it ties in a lot to a documentary he made, like, three years ago called Pictures of Ghosts, which was about Recife and in this case, a lot of his memories, but also specifically memories of, like, the movie palaces there, which is another theme that kind of ties into what happens in this movie. It was a film I really liked. But, yeah, I mean, I think, you know, like, one thing about this film also is, like, I have kind of, like, broadly described it as a movie about, like, acts of resistance. And I think it is. But it. I think it is much more deliberately tying together. I mean, there's one part where, you know, Armando arrives at this apartment complex that is like, kind of. He's going to be sheltered there. And it turns out to be filled with all of these different people. Yeah. Like, who are on the run from different things. And I think that is something that is very pointed about, which is to be like, there are some people here who have run afoul of the military dictatorship. There are other people who have come from, like, Angola. There is someone who is on the run from his, like, mean and, like, kind of, like, abusive, like, yeah, homophobic, like, father and uncle there. There are people who are there for all different Reason it is not just like. And, you know, there's a. They have a conversation where one of them calls them refugees and someone else is like, we don't use that word. He's like, what else would you call us? It is less about kind of like, taking, like. As opposed to, say, like, one battle after another, which opens right, with, like, these kind of, like, acts of, like, deliberate. Kind of, like acts of activism, Right. Against resistance against the government. This is about people who have all been kind of, like, oppressed in different ways. And, like, it is about the kind of, like, sanctuary they find together, but it is about, like, the people who help them.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, yeah. And you get the sense, you know, that Armando, like, his antagonist, this corrupt, is using the levers of corrupt government against him directly, whereas in other of these sort of refugees cases, it's not so much that their antagonist has political sway or access, it's just that they can take advantage of a somewhat lawless system where they're like, you know, they could disappear you. Or they could. You know, there are bodies lying on the ground in front of gas stations. Like, who's gonna really prosecute? You know? But, yeah, the sense that, like, that this rot has not just sort of affected those who have direct or even somewhat indirect ties to the government, but just really every. It just. It just affects how people view life and live life. And then that he colors that with, like, Donna Sebastiana, which is such a great character. And then the helpers, you know, is so nice because it's, like, what a testament to people doing that then. People doing it now. And that's a real parallel to why.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, And I think it probably is something that resonated with people a lot. Before we get into spoiler territory, I do want to shout out to one of my favorite ongoing threads in this film. I mean, one of them, like, in a broader sense, is just this, like. Like, deep, like, love for Brazilian culture in it. Like, in kind of, like, a very distinctive and, like. Kind of, like, diverse and, like, singular celebration right up to and including Carnaval, even while he's in this incredibly situation, incredibly stressful situation. There is a scene in which Armando walks out into the street and Carnaval is happening. Everyone is partying, and he, like, joins.

[Richard Lawson]

He does a little.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, he kind of, like, shimmies into the crowd in a way. That's lovely. My other favorite thread that is ongoing here is just a kind of constant reminder of just be, like, people be fucking.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

There are, like, multiple scenes in which they just kind of like, walk in or, like, spot some people having sex in sometimes public places. Many bunches of public places.

[Richard Lawson]

Why not? You know. No, it's true. Like, yeah, like that, like, life, you know, life carries on.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. Yeah. No, it is.

[Richard Lawson]

Which isn't to say that, like, these repressive, you know, governments should be tolerated, but, like. But yeah, there is something survives.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. Life does not stop.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

All right, we're going to talk spoilers for the Secret Agent. This section lasts about 23 and a half minutes, if you want to skip ahead.

[Allison Wilmore]

Well, biggest spoilers about the secret agent, now that we are. We are over the spoiler wall.

[Richard Lawson]

He's not a secret agent.

[Allison Wilmore]

He's not a secret agent. No, I was going to say that is, like, one of the funniest things to be like, where does the title come from? And you're like, it comes from. I had to look up the name of this movie because I could not recognize it. Like, it comes from a movie that is playing at his father in law's cinema, which is also an important location throughout the film that they keep returning to. It is the 1973 spy spoof the man from Acapulco starring Jean Paul Belmondo and Jacqueline Bissette.

[Richard Lawson]

Ah, okay.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yes. I looked through the credits for it, but, yeah, so that, I suppose in Brazil was released as the Secret Agent. And so that is where the name comes from. Yeah. I mean, like, when the movie starts, there is this moment where you're expecting him to turn out to be a spy or like a undercover part of.

[Richard Lawson]

Some underground political resistance. Yeah, but I also think that there. I mean, maybe I'm maybe sitting in the back of the car with his dad. That kid is looking at his mysterious father who disappeared for a while and be like, I think he might be a secret agent. You know, like, there's a sort of, like, awe almost projected from son to father about this. And like, you know, all the movie theater stuff is so much from Phil Hill's own life. And, like, I mean, that shot that pushes out through the window and looks at the like is like, one of the most stunning shots of last year. Like, it's so good. And I make this comparison favorably. I realize it might not sound that way to other people. I see a lot of Roma in there. Like, the sense memory stuff and like, the. The grand old movie palace kind of stuff. And a real. Let me do the best I can to make manifest, like you were saying, distinct memories of an egg on a table or whatever. The way that my dad looked in the rearview mirror.

[Allison Wilmore]

The drawings he makes of. The son is obsessed with Jaws and keeps drawing these amazingly adorable photos of our pictures of Sharp, including the poster. There's an incredible rendition of the Jaws poster with Shark coming up. Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

And it's funny to remember, and I don't think it's overstated in the film. In the States, too, when that movie came out, people had a really hard time dealing with the violence of that movie and the suspense of that movie. People vomiting and running out of the theater and fainting and all that. That was real.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. No, I like the people who kind of. They watch the Omen and they come out and they're like, I might be possessed in the lobby. It's just like a background thing going on. I appreciate that. That. Yeah. So. So this is a movie that is not about a secret agent.

[Richard Lawson]

We.

[Allison Wilmore]

But for a long stretch, because he is, like, operating under the kind of like, c. The certain. Like, what we expect from someone who is, like, maybe undercover, on the run, but undercover, you know, like. Yes, he is ghost.

[Richard Lawson]

He's meeting with contacts. They're setting him up with different things.

[Allison Wilmore]

He's like. They're setting him up with a job at, like, the identification card office. Right. And that makes him. Puts him in the orbit of the corrupt chief of police, which he doesn't want to know about.

[Richard Lawson]

There's a sense of mission here.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yes. And then that all kind of slowly dissolves the further we get because we learn he's not. Like, the thing he's trying to achieve is intensely personal. Right. And, like, what we're doing here is not some kind of, like, mission on behalf of some other force. It is him.

[Griffin Newman]

Act of memory is an act of memory.

[Allison Wilmore]

It is him trying to get this card, this identification card of his mother and the context of which we do not learn until the very end of the movie. But he is willing to risk so much, like his personal safety to find this card before he and his son flee the country.

[Richard Lawson]

Because there was a very real chance and it happened where, like, their memory would. They would be totally kind of wiped from existence in a way, as if they were never there. Right.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

Well, and I, you know, I think. Think one of the great moments in this movie is when we learn. We do not learn until literally years in the future. You know, in the coda, which skips ahead to, you know, a present day where we have his son now played by Wagner Mora, in this incredible, I think, like, double role that is, like, very carefully delineated, but he explains that his grandmother, Armando's mother was the daughter of like the housekeeper in this house. And basically at 14, was impregnated by the son. The 17 year old son had a baby. The baby looked white enough, as he said. Like he kind of like lays that out, right. His. His mother was nicknamed India. He was beautiful. So they kept him, they took him away from her.

[Richard Lawson]

Right.

[Allison Wilmore]

And she had no choice about keeping him or had no say about that at all. And they raised him in this kind of like more moneyed family. So that was it. Like the only trace he has of his mother's existence is this identity card.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, exactly. When he's playing the Sun.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yes.

[Richard Lawson]

I've heard two schools have thought about this. Do you think he's playing it as gay?

[Allison Wilmore]

Someone mentioned that to me as a possible reading. The time I rewatched it this time with that in mind. I feel like it's not there. Or it could be there. Yeah. Like, I feel like people were like.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh no, it's so interesting that he had the son be gay when he's an adult. And I was like, oh, was that a thing in the movie?

[Allison Wilmore]

I don't think that. I don't think it is. The way he plays that character repels that reading, but I do not think it is. Like, obviously I'm not sure that's.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, I just don't think that's certainly not text. I've had people say it to me with such conviction. I think that if that were the case, I guess you could understand it as like just further evidence of like, look how far the country's come. Like, you know, like progress has been made in some arenas, not in others, you know, whatever. Like that this gay out gay man, whatever, you know. But it's just like a funny little added theory about that at the end of that movie.

[Griffin Newman]

One thing that I love about that scene and how it's scripted is that when he's recounting some of his experiences, he misremembers things that we have already seen happen. In the film where I think he talks about how he had wanted to.

[Allison Wilmore]

Go see Jaws, his father says, absolutely not. He's like, you know, like he already has nightmares all the time. It's a grandfather who wants to bring him to see it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, right. And then in his mind and then when he retells it, he reverses that, which, you know, goes back to all of these themes about memory and how, like if we don't speak the things, if we don't have the ID card, if we don't talk about the man under the cardboard at the gas station. Then we. We lose these things and we don't have them at all.

[Richard Lawson]

And then we repeat them.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

You know, because we repeat the bad stuff because we didn't learn from them.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. No, I think there is a tremendous worry about what the cost is of just effacing history. Like, obviously, time goes on, right? Like, the. Not the. It's not supposed to be the movie theater the movie keeps taking, like, returning to, but another movie theater. The theater where he says he saw Jaws is now the blood bank that he's, like, working at as a doctor.

[Richard Lawson]

Y.

[Allison Wilmore]

That's like a real thing from Pictures of Ghosts. Like, that was really a movie theater that the director had gone to see movies at as a kid and is now a blood bank. But, yeah, I think there is so much about the ways in which it's easy to kind of manipulate the record, historical record, and then to manipulate memory that way. Right. Because, like, I mean, even, like, it's like. So it's kind of of Mora, like, under delivers it. And it makes it even more devastating when he tells Flavia this. This researcher who has been listening to tapes of his father. You know, like, you remember my father better than I do. Like, even this horrible image of, like, him as a child on the day that his father turns out to be killed, shot in the street, like, waiting for his father to pick him up. You know, he tells a story and he's like, I don't remember it myself. I know I've created, like, this, you know, kind of like, stand in memory because my grandfather told me this, but, like, I don't remember it.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. And I do think that there is definitely. I like to do this set up strawman movies that don't exist. But there is a worst movie, a worse version of this movie that's like, we see him gunned down. The boy is just out of reach, and he falls dead on the street in front of his son.

[Allison Wilmore]

Or even, like, it's intercut. Like, he's trying to get there. He's waiting. And like, he never knows.

[Richard Lawson]

Instead, like, in a way that I think really does risk alienation with American viewers. Well, a lot of. And it did me at first, I was confused. Is like, we only find out that he got shot and killed from a photograph when the movie has fully moved into the present tense, you know, and we never see that. There is no resolution to even did it happen that day, like an hour later, 10 minutes later, like, we see the one assassin see his Dead colleague and then kind of disappear and it's like, oh, I guess the understanding is he caught up with him and killed him. Yeah, but like, you know, it, it, it's, it's so blunt. But I think that's so effective because that's exactly. In some ways it was how it was experienced by the sun. It was not in sight. It was just something he heard about. And maybe he saw that newspaper photograph at some point, but like it's an abstraction to him in a way.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, well, I think, you know, like the kind of most outsized version of that is hairy leg. Right. Which is the story that the newspapers run with in this like kind of outrageous tabloid, you know, like supernatural story where they're claiming that this leg, just like a kind of like severed leg, is menacing people who are cruising in this various spots and like everyone who reads the story, the newspaper story, can read between the lines and know that it's like people who are cruising. But like. Yes. And then this leg attacks people and this is like a huge newspaper story. Like all of the newsboys are like clamoring for that because they know it's going to sell so well. And then when you get that kind of final scene in which Bobby, like the one of the two assassins is like killed and they put the newspaper over him, you see the headline, it's like carnival deaths are up to like 91.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

And you're like, oh, that was sort of a distraction from like the actual ongoing violence that is happening.

[Richard Lawson]

You know, like the leg in question is. Right. It's alluded to that. That's the leg of someone that was killed illegally by the police or at least disposed of.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, right.

[Allison Wilmore]

Except then when they build out the hairy leg mythology, eventually hairy leg is the one stealing the leg from the morgue. So then it becomes like you're like, wait, are there multiple legs out there? What is going on? But yeah, I mean like when you actually see the rendering of Harry leg, like a stop motion monster movie, right? Like jumping around and like kicking people in the face.

[Griffin Newman]

A shocking scene just because it is so. It's almost like you are in a movie within the movie. Yeah. It looks completely different.

[Allison Wilmore]

It feels, the music is different. Like the music is like monster, like throwback monster movie music. And it's really funny, but it's also funny that it is left to life like pretty late in the movie. Also, like, you know, the ways in which this movie unfolds and the way in which it event like it waits so long to let you know why Armando is on the run and like being hunted, you know, like has like literally a hit out on his head.

[Richard Lawson]

You know, and some might say, I mean, I have heard the criticism. It does try patience a bit. Like it's not as fast paced as a movie as it maybe sells itself at the beginning. It takes a long time to really find out what the hell's going on.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, no, it is. It does not unfold in a conventional way at all.

[Richard Lawson]

Which again is why it's surprising that it's gotten all this Oscar attention.

[Allison Wilmore]

So I think like that scene where Armando finally just talks to the head of this kind of group of helping people get out of the country just tells the story of what happened is so good. I don't know what, I don't know if you've mentioned, but Wagner Moore is obviously nominated for Best Actor. His like snippet is going to be. But I have to imagine it's going to. Has to be from that scene.

[Richard Lawson]

I would think so.

[Allison Wilmore]

He's so great in it. Like the particular version of outrage he expresses. Yes. Is like, I am so upset that not just what was done to me. Yes. But like that it should have been able to happen at all. Like, I am so offended by the kind of like brash corruption of this man. Yeah, yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

I mean, you can see where his nomination comes in. I think also the coda with him playing another character helps. But also I think the real triumph with of the academy in regards to this movie is like the best casting nomination. Like, it's the first time they've done this category. Everyone was like, well, how's this gonna work? Is it just gonna be like. It is. It turns out five best picture nominees. Hopefully in the years to come they can think a bit more broadly about like what specifically is working casting wise in a movie. It doesn't just have to be. I like that ensemble from a best picture nominee. But in the Secret Agent's case, they could have gone a different direction with the casting. There were, you know, four other choices. But like this movie is so beautifully populated. Like from the woman who does the interviewing to Donna Sebastiana to these gangsters to the kid to the leg to whatever. Like, it's just, it's a, it's. And I would have to imagine that the branch nominating it for casting has not worked with this Brazilian casting director before. She's. They're not a colleague of, you know, theirs, but they just see how beautifully, you know, everyone fits so perfectly into this tapestry. I think that's for me that's the coolest nomination it got.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, it is, really. I mean, because the casting is amazing. Like, this. This movie has an enormous cast of.

[Richard Lawson]

Like, memorable faces and voices and, you know, and bodies.

[Allison Wilmore]

Honestly, like, one of the things I love is just, like, how many bodies, like, and types of bodies you see on screen. But, yeah, like, these are. There are a lot of actors that he's worked with before. There are a lot of repeat faces from Baccarau. For instance, like, he clearly has Udo Kir. Yeah. And then terrific. In this, like, single sequence in which he plays a Jewish man, brings to.

[Richard Lawson]

All this other Brazilian history. And, like, of course, like, World War II, like, you know, like, it wasn't just the Nazis who fled to South America. There were. There was tons of other people from Europe who ended up there. Like, and that. He doesn't, like, turn that into some sort of bit of didactic. Like, this is also part of the tapestry of this city and this country. It's like, no, no, that's another movie. But I just want to touch on it briefly, you know, and affect the.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. And just also the ways in which the police chief just kind of has no interest in understanding what this man's actual background is. They're just like, show us your scars. Like. Yeah. Like, you must be a soldier. And you're like, he wasn't a soldier. This is not where those scars came from. But, yeah, that scene is terrific.

[Griffin Newman]

Special mention for Donna Sebastiana.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, she's so good. Maria, Tanya. Maria, Tanya, Maria. Yeah, she's amazing. That's the one thing that would be. I mean, it would take a lot for the Oscars to pay attention to a performance that's, like, that far down in the.

[Griffin Newman]

This is why we need our special appearance.

[Richard Lawson]

We need the third Oscar.

[Allison Wilmore]

That's true.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, perfect. She's so wonderful. She's so. She, like, especially contrasts to Wagner. Just, like, she's so tiny. And. Do we know anything about her?

[Allison Wilmore]

She was in Baccarau as well. She. It's funny, she's listed as an actress, artisan and seamstress on Wikipedia.

[Richard Lawson]

She might just be some colorful character.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. Like, I. I think the first, like, the Bucker House seems to be her first acting credits, so, you know, she was just someone that he found. And she seems to have, like, an amazing kind of, like, storied life. And her character has an amazing storied life. One of my favorite lines of hers is when she says, you know, like, I did three things in Italy when I was in Italy. During the war. And I'm not gonna tell you what they are, but I had to do them. And you're like, oh, she's been through so much. She's done so much.

[Griffin Newman]

What did you think of the sort of wraparound story with the two researchers who you don't really know. They kind of pop in for the first time maybe halfway through, and you don't really know why they're listening to these tapes. At first it was like, are they making a podcast?

[Allison Wilmore]

No. I mean, it is a wild. That is like, even more so than hairy leg, I think is like, the wildest jump when, like, halfway through the movie, we suddenly leave, like, decades to these two characters he's never seen before who are listening to audio tapes.

[Richard Lawson]

And even the shock of seeing modern technology, you're like, whoa, wait a second. Yeah, but I think that the way that it works so well when it arrives, because it's like this mounting worry that there will be no kind of acknowledgement or reckoning with this past at all. Because in the 70s present tense of the movie, they all feel so swallowed up by this thing that there's a sense of comfort and sadness when you're like, okay, so, like, this is all at least known by these two, you know, researchers or whatever. Like, at least someone is.

[Allison Wilmore]

But it also, like, just becomes. I think for one of them, it is, like, the thing she does for her job. You know, it is, like, unusual that Flavia is like, there are still people attached to this that I can find through great effort. Right. Like, but that.

[Richard Lawson]

That's a job at all seems of value. Right.

[Allison Wilmore]

Like, but, like, even that is, like, Right. You're like, all of this through the grace of, you know, this. Yes. Like, daughter of a wealthy, corrupt Sao Paulo family who decided to invest her money into this kind of underground, including taking documentation, which is never explained why she is invested in that. But, yeah, you're like, oh, that is the only reason why we have this chorus of voices, you know, documenting this time. Because, like, one of the things about being an underground kind of like. Like this underground world is that there is no kind of public facing history of that. Right. Like, it is at the time. You have to live in secret. This is all being done in secret. So, yeah, those audio tapes become, you know, the only record. And I think you feel in the movie the delicacy with which, like, you know, like, real historical record versus, like, the kind of history that then gets created officially.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. And I do think that that kind of present tense framing device, like, runs the Risk of being a little bit. Not gimmicky, but a bit like a little cloying or something. And I've seen some criticisms of this movie that kind of say something to that effect, like, we didn't really need this. It kind of. It telegraphs what the movie's about too much. I kind of. On second viewing, I disagree. I think it's deployed effectively and with restraint enough that even the sort of more sentimental ending with this meeting of these two people who seem to be bridging all these different divides. And I think it works because similar to the sort of unseen death of Armando, like, the direction, the writing doesn't sort of just overplay it. It's.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. No, I think one of the things that makes it so heartbreaking is the way that Mora plays that second character, you know, like, in this.

[Richard Lawson]

He's kind of indifferent to it, or.

[Allison Wilmore]

Just like, he's like. I cannot pretend to feel these enormous, like, feelings of grief. This person is gone from my memory, you know, like. Like, he is only a concept to me now. Like, you understand him as a person more than I do. You're like, that's such a sad thing.

[Griffin Newman]

It's also a very real thing. I think when I've done documentary projects and stuff, I've interviewed people and this. That happens where it's like, you know, you know more about the subject than they do. You want something from them that they can't always give you.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Both on an emotional level and on a textual level of like. Like, I need this for my work or just my personal self knowledge. Self satisfaction.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

But, like, life moved on for him. And, like, both Armando and Flavia are doing a homecoming, you know, to find something. You know, he's looking for this car, this identity card for his mother. Flavia's looking to, like, just kind of make a connection with this family she's been essentially, you know, listening to or one member of and the kind of. Yeah. He basically tells her. He's like, oh, I don't know. Life moved on. You know, like, yes, I know it was a big thing, and I appreciate that you care about it, but, like, I can't dwell on that, you know?

[Allison Wilmore]

And I think also he's just like, that's just not the life. You know, Like, I was raised by my grandfather. He is who I think of as my father. Like that.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

Before we. I do want to talk a bit more about Wagner, Mora. But before we do that, I did want to ask you, in light of our earlier conversation, do you feel like this movie is built with international audiences in life.

[Richard Lawson]

It doesn't feel that way to me. I mean, I can't infer anyone's intent behind the camera, but like, it, I think because of the sort of, like the plotting that is a bit obfuscating the strangeness of it. The deep, from what I understand, like this sort of. I hate to use this fucking term, but like the sort of deep roster of like Easter eggs for like references to Brazilian culture and history and very specific stuff. No, I think it's made for Brazilians because obviously they're the ones who are gonna, you know, feel it most potently.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

I think, you know, it's great that it does. It has appeal beyond that.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. I mean, one of the things I appreciate is that it does not kind of do the very heavy handed, like, here's a note. I mean, like, even the opening, like, crawl of text, right. Is like, It's Brazil in 1977, a period of great mischief and is not like the military dictator, you know, like.

[Griffin Newman]

So I had a funny thing happen at my screening.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, pretty solemn ending. The credits roll, A woman stands up and shouts, viva Brazil.

[Richard Lawson]

Okay, all right.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, to the crowd.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And it sort of got me thinking about how the characters in this movie kind of talk about how much they hate Brazil constantly. Like, they're talking, you know, it's like they're very put upon living in this place where they are oppressed. And yet the movie so clearly loves Brazil.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, there are parties in the streets. It's so colorful. It has a sense of national pride. And nobody is standing up at the end of one battle after another and saying, like, God bless America.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, you don't know that.

[Griffin Newman]

And I just kind of think I.

[Richard Lawson]

Was cheering on Team USA in the figure skating, though. You know, like during the Olympics. Like, I, like, like I. I can understand some degree of that duality. I mean, like, obviously in this case it's much more about like national identity than it is like these, you know, kids are skating well.

[Allison Wilmore]

But like, you know, how does. What is a song that one battle after another ends on?

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

So I think, like, maybe we're also in a place right now where maybe most of us are not inclined to stand up and yell. You know, I think God bless America.

[Griffin Newman]

We have a. We're having a hard time understanding what national pride means and how to have national pride if we should have it at all. And I just found it kind of inspiring that this artist was able to make a movie that is both self critical and proud of itself. The more I talk about this movie, the more I think it is just a stone cold masterpiece.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, no, I think it's a tremendous movie and I think you were totally correct. I think one of its greatest strengths is. Is the boundless wells of affection it has for the culture and people and landscape of this culture.

[Richard Lawson]

And thus the sadness about the fact that it has to be so marred and derailed and harmed and made ugly on the international stage by this cabal of horrible military politicians and stuff in that Long live Brazil. There's also a sadness and a defiance and a rage there, you know?

[Emily Yoshida]

David. What D. Oh boy. Donna oh.

[David Sims]

Is legendary and very old composer John Williams in the room.

[Emily Yoshida]

It was just his birthday.

[David Sims]

I know. And he was celebrated.

[Emily Yoshida]

He is the man who tried to warn us about the sharks. He said, here is their theme song. If you hear them notes, right, if you hear those two notes, suit up, get safe, hit dry land. Because it's scary to swim in open waters when there's a risk of a shark attack. And even scarier is going online without ExpressVPN.

[David Sims]

Would you say that's like scuba diving in a suit made of meat?

[Allison Wilmore]

Yes.

[Emily Yoshida]

It's not. It's even worse than scuba diving in your birthday suit. It's scuba diving in a meat suit, begging people.

[David Sims]

I would say just for me, for.

[Richard Lawson]

Me personally, I actually, my birthday suit.

[David Sims]

Suit is a suit made of meat. I got it made for a birthday one time.

[Emily Yoshida]

Okay, that's a birthday suit, not your birthday suit.

[Richard Lawson]

The.

[Emily Yoshida]

The real lesson here is that thank God Lady Gaga didn't go for a swim after the Grammys that one day.

[David Sims]

The runtime when she was in the meet. Remember that?

[Emily Yoshida]

And thank God ExpressVPN exists to keep you safe while surfing the world Wide Web.

[David Sims]

Exactly. This is all a metaphor. But when you think about it, when you're connecting to an unencrypted network, say you're an a hotel or a cafe, an airport, so on and so forth. Your online data is not secure. There are sharks, AKA hackers, trying to steal your personal data. Doesn't take much technical knowledge to do it. Just some cheap hardware is needed. Your daily data is valuable. They can make a thousand a person selling it on the dark web.

[Richard Lawson]

So.

[David Sims]

ExpressVPN. Listen, I have some stuff to tell you about it.

[Emily Yoshida]

I can't wait to hear it.

[David Sims]

It's at its lowest price ever. Prices start at 3.49amonth. That's 12 cents a day.

[Emily Yoshida]

12 cents a day.

[David Sims]

Drop flicking a 12 pence at you a 12 pence. It would take a hacker with a super computer over a billion years to get past ExpressVPN encryption. And it's easy to use. You fire it up, you click one more button, you get protected. That's it. It's been rated number one by top tech reviewers like CNET and the Verge.

[Emily Yoshida]

I'm going to go on a limb and say that 1 billion years is longer than the average life expectancy for a hacker. I'm gonna say most of them probably succeed in getting there.

[David Sims]

So I use it. It's on my phone. It's on my laptop.

[Emily Yoshida]

I have it on my laptop.

[Richard Lawson]

Yep, yep.

[David Sims]

Clicky, easy. Because I don't know how any of this works. I'm confused by it. I'm an old man when it comes to VPNs. I like how simple it is to use. And you too, can secure your online data today by visiting expressvpn.com check that's E X P R E-S vpn.com check to find out how you can get up to four extra month. Expressvpn.com check. Ex P S S vpn.com check. I did it right.

[Griffin Newman]

I just.

[Emily Yoshida]

You did it right. Believe in yourself letters.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Emily Yoshida]

And Happy birthday, Johnny Williams.

[Allison Wilmore]

All right. Vogner, Mora Y. There is, like, a part of me that is like, if anyone pulls an upset in. In Best Actor, which everyone has been like, it's Timmy's, you know, like, Timmy's gonna get it, it would be Wagner, who, I don't know that any of us would have called as like the. A nominee, you know, like, even a few months before. Like that. Like, watching him kind of like rise through the ranks in terms of, like, all of these kind of like the praise he was getting. But also certain precursor awards where you're like, oh, it's gonna. It's gonna happen. He's gonna get elimination.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

They clearly like that movie, the Academy. And I do think that, you know, usually we think of a vote split happening between people from the same movie, but in this case, like, can two frontrunners In Chalamet and DiCaprio, presumably, can they split it? And there comes this, you know. Yeah, I could see it. I mean, I think that last year, yes, the conversation was very much like Mikey Verse, Demi Moore, but I think that Fernanda Torres from I'm Still Here, I think she came pretty close, you.

[Allison Wilmore]

Know, I mean, she won the Golden Globe.

[Richard Lawson]

She won the Globe. Yeah. Which, you know, doesn't always mean anything, but, like, there was moment I think if that movie had had two, three more weeks momentum time, they would have been a much, much tougher competition. It was just that I'm still here sort of arrived kind of late in the consciousness for a lot of voters. Whereas I think that Secret Agent has had a lot more time to linger for a variety of, you know, like it was at Cannes, you know, a while ago. Neon did a good job of making sure people saw it. I mean, that's reflected in the amount of nominations it got. And so that means that Maura is probably way more front of mind than Fernando Torres was.

[Allison Wilmore]

The history of actors winning in languages, in performances that are in languages other than English, is, like, it's a fairly limited one. You know, though, as you mentioned, we are in a moment of like, a much more kind of like, slow but Long and coming opening up of not just Best Picture, but these other categories to non English language films.

[Richard Lawson]

We had what you showed Young for minor.

[Allison Wilmore]

Zoe Saldana.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, of course.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

That is largely a Spanish speaking role.

[Allison Wilmore]

That's true. Yeah. Yeah. And then I know you go back to, like, Marion Cotillard. Roberto.

[Richard Lawson]

There are some angels in this city.

[Allison Wilmore]

Roberto Benini.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

Unforgettable. Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

But, like, you know, if you go and sit in the old Oscar auditorium, you can still feel him dancing on the seats behind you. Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yes.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah.

[Allison Wilmore]

I do wonder.

[Richard Lawson]

I don't believe that there's been a whole goddamn Olympics in Italy and they have not sent him falling down a fucking ski jump hill or just doing a pratfall.

[Allison Wilmore]

Why is he not doing pratfalls all over the place?

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah. Why isn't he the mascot? They're giving all the winners this little, like, stuffed stoat or, like, weasel or whatever, and it's like, no, it should be Panigni.

[Allison Wilmore]

I know. Did he do that acceptance speech for nothing?

[Richard Lawson]

I know. I wonder if he's fallen out the. Of. Of, like, favor in Italy.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. The truth is, I have not kept up with what Roberto Benigni has been up to lately, so.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, guess what? Our guest next week, we're going to.

[Allison Wilmore]

Look this up, and it's going to be like, he is a serial killer.

[Richard Lawson]

He is a close advisor to Giorgia Maloney.

[Allison Wilmore]

Like, okay. But I do think that, like, one thing that Maura has as an advantage is that he has been in. He, like, lives in LA with his family. You know, he has been in a bunch of American productions. Like, he is someone that, like, craftspeople are aware of.

[Richard Lawson]

Narcos was big, was a very popular show.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. Like, that was like, one of those, like, Netflix giving one of those flickers of, like, the last gas of monoculture. Right. Like, every once in a while, Netflix is like, one of the last places.

[Richard Lawson]

Capable of pulling that off the tractor being pulled in. Like middle aged dads.

[Allison Wilmore]

Exactly. You're like, oh. And then you're like. You'd hear people talking about it in the wild, which is not always the case with major Netflix.

[Richard Lawson]

No, that definitely is to his advantage.

[Allison Wilmore]

That's true. Yeah. So do I think it's gonna happen? I don't know that I'm feeling that. But, like, I. I think if. If there is an upset, it would be him. Like, if someone does not.

[Richard Lawson]

Yeah, no, I know. I think 100. And I do think that, like, DiCaprio's disadvantage is, like, fat. A certain kind of. More like legacy fatigue of, like, we gave that kid the thing 10 years ago. He's not a kid anymore. Like what? Like, he's part of the club. He, you know, bangs all these young models and makes $20 million a movie. Like, I don't want to give him another award. And then Timmy, it's like, oh, he's too young and, like, cool, and my daughter is obsessed with him. Whatever, you know? Whereas here comes this, like, solid man, you know, like, but, like, warmth. A warmth. Kind of nice masculinity. You know, in this, like, big. Like, even in the movie, there are.

[Allison Wilmore]

Characters who's like, see? That is a man.

[Richard Lawson]

I could see all members of, you know, different, you know, quadrants of the. Of the Academy being like, that's our guy.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

That'd be thrilling. I mean, that would be thrill. I'm. I think I'm still kind of weirdly rooting for Chalamet, even though, like.

[Allison Wilmore]

And, like, think of Cliff Chalamet. What would become of her if you didn't win?

[Richard Lawson]

I mean, I'd be very worried. She'd be under a piece of cardboard outside a gas station.

[Allison Wilmore]

She would just put herself there. Just like, kind of crawl there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, I would not be sad if that happens. No offense to Timmy, who I think is incredible in Marty supreme, but the.

[Richard Lawson]

Closer we get to the ceremony, I mean, we're only a few weeks away. I am in full just surprise me mode.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

After watching the Spirit Awards, where it was like, the winners were kind of like, okay, so it's train dreams for director and picture, it felt kind of. I mean, I was thrilled for Rose Byrne winning, but, like, okay, you know, like, I mean, if she won at the Oscars Holy cow. That would be crazy. But, like, I just. I want surprises now. And Mora would be both that, but also something I could actually, like, root for.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Before we go, I wanted to do our. Our weekly Il Postino corner.

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, yeah, of course. Okay. Yeah. Bob, do you have the electrodes to strap to Allison's head?

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I don't have the electrodes.

[Allison Wilmore]

I wear them all the time now.

[Griffin Newman]

But I do have. So I did some digging to try and find this study.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

So you went to the records office, posed to someone else.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, well, I actually, you know, I did a little bit of search through the literature.

[Allison Wilmore]

Sure. I mean, you are a research professional.

[Griffin Newman]

Sort of.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank you.

[Allison Wilmore]

You.

[Griffin Newman]

I should also say that a blankie on the subreddit also dug this up. So it's not like this was an incredible feat of research, but. So, anyway. Well, maybe we should remind people what.

[Allison Wilmore]

Actually, when I was an undergrad, I did a lot of psych experiments for money. They would, like, literally pay you cash for you come in and participate in this. And one of the most involved ones that I did, which paid more money than the other ones for obvious reasons as a. Is that I. I got electrodes strapped to me, and I had to wear headphones. And then I was. I watched, like, I think, like, 15 or 20 minutes of Il Postino with the subtitles on, because.

[Richard Lawson]

And we established this was years after that movie.

[Allison Wilmore]

Yeah, years after it came out. I don't know how they ended up. They landed on Il Postino, and then every once in a while, I would hear, like, a loud noise in the headphones, or I would get a mild electric shock. And then afterwards.

[Richard Lawson]

And they never.

[Allison Wilmore]

And then they were like, go home. You know, I think they did then quiz me about details in the movie. So I think the idea was that it was supposed to affect how much this distraction affected my ability to follow the opening of the film.

[Griffin Newman]

So I was able to find multiple references to the use of Il Postino as a film used in psychological experiments. But the only experiment that I could find that was sort of close was one called Orbitofrontal Cortex and Dynamic Filtering of Emotional Stimuli, which was performed at the University of California, Berkeley.

[Allison Wilmore]

Oh, yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Not far from where you're from.

[Allison Wilmore]

This is true.

[Griffin Newman]

I think that you may have been in a mirror experiment, because it sounds very similar. Let's see. The set of auditory stimuli consisted of 144 environmental sounds. Train whistle, dog bark. Each sound was unique and thus was presented only once during the day.

[Richard Lawson]

Allison's eyes have rolled Back in her head. I just wanted to tell the audience.

[Griffin Newman]

To maintain a relatively constant level of arousal, the subjects watched a movie with the audio off Il Postino with subtitles. During stimulus presentation, we obtained EEG recordings with electrodes placed on three midline scalp locations.

[Allison Wilmore]

But they don't say shock, do they?

[Griffin Newman]

I don't think they say shock.

[Richard Lawson]

And it says that after the experiment, if either Angela Lansbury or Meryl Streep called anybody and said a certain set of words, they would assassinate well, or.

[Allison Wilmore]

They would become a. It was like a horrifying side effect of this. Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Well, that explains.

[Allison Wilmore]

And that's why they wiped the experiment from the records after that, because they were like, what have we done?

[Griffin Newman]

Anyway, I just thought you would maybe be interested to know that you were part of a long tradition of Il Pastino related style.

[Allison Wilmore]

I think the great relief is just that I wasn't participating in someone's highly specific kink. You know, like, it was weird afterwards, they're like, this is in a basement. And then he has to take pictures of my feet. Yeah, yeah. So to feel like there's actual academic backing here is.

[Richard Lawson]

I would like to get to the bottom of what the reasoning for that particular movie, because that's pretty random. Even in the early 2000s.

[Allison Wilmore]

I just like it. Maybe, like, maybe psych departments across the.

[Richard Lawson]

Country, they were like, there's a sexy element to it. And maybe the other language element is part of the sort of cognitive thing.

[David Sims]

I don't know.

[Richard Lawson]

But that's fascinating. I wish I had done that.

[Allison Wilmore]

Thank you, Ben.

[Richard Lawson]

I appreciate your validating.

[Griffin Newman]

This is your life.

[Allison Wilmore]

It's a bit of my backstory. Yeah.

[Richard Lawson]

Now, 30 years from now, when some girl shows up to ask you a. About your life experiences. Right.

[Allison Wilmore]

Like, well, it all goes back to this one moment.

[Griffin Newman]

What are we doing next week?

[Richard Lawson]

Oh, so we're gonna get on an SAS flight from Sao Paulo all the way up to Oslo, where we're gonna be talking about sentimental value, the last of our two non English language features. Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna have a special guest for that, which is very exciting.

[Griffin Newman]

Is that one streaming?

[Richard Lawson]

You can rent it at the $9.99 level. So I think it's worth it. Maybe watch it with a couple people, you know, split up the cost. But. But yeah, we'll be doing that. And then if you're doing your homework, doing your math at home, that will leave two more movies to talk about before we get to the Oscars, which we would argue are the two biggies. But. Yeah. So we'll see you here next week.

[Allison Wilmore]

Critical Darlings is a blank check. Production in association with Vulture. Hosted by Allison Wilmore and Richard Lawson. Produced by Benjamin Frisch. Executive produced by Griffin Newman and Neil Janowitz. Video production and distribution by Ann Victoria Clark, Wolfgang Ruth and Jennifer Jean.