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Blank Check with Griffin & David
Critical Darlings: Train Dreams, And Netflix’s Quest For Best Picture
01:03:57
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- [00:07]
A
Welcome to Critical Darlings, a conversation about the awards season. Conversation one contender at a time. Please welcome to the stage your hosts, Richard Lawson and Alison Wilmore.
- [00:26]
B
Thank you as ever, Marie, for that lovely introduction. Although I feel like this whole episode should be voiceover.
- [00:34]
A
Yeah. We can just sit here quietly, Mamarie.
- [00:37]
B
And very, like, poetic.
- [00:39]
A
Explains our lives and our interior, but, you know, in a way that's, it's. It's touching. It feels poetic. Yeah. That's podcast magic, I think, is when the hosts just don't talk.
- [00:50]
B
Yeah. Well, so we're going to talk about Train Dreams this week because, you know, it is a best picture nominee.
- [00:57]
A
It's the other surprise, I would say, like, not totally unexpected, but like the kind. It was a long shot for best picture, I think.
- [01:05]
B
So I think that one thing that about this movie that is worth getting into is like its arc from its premiere at Sundance almost a year ago to a best picture nomination and a couple other nominations, because that's not a unique story. Sundance has had a, you know, a presence in awards for a long time. But you also add the Netflix of it all. And like, Netflix bought this movie and it wasn't one, you know, they had a bunch of, like, homegrown movies that one of which performed well at nominations last week. But Train Dreams, I don't know, it seems to represent a certain kind of best picture nominee that I can't tell if that's a dying breed or just a breed that's here to stay.
- [01:51]
A
The kind of scrappy indie that the.
- [01:53]
B
Little Sundance movie that could.
- [01:54]
A
Yes.
- [01:55]
B
That gets swept up in a bigger narrative somehow, and they're just kind of riding this wild wave, you know. And, you know, there are, there have been years recently where there has been no movie that came from Sundance nominated, but it's actually pretty rare that that happens within the last, like, I don't know, this century, basically.
- [02:13]
A
Yeah. You know, the funny thing about Sundance is that I feel like in the larger Oscar narrative that we've talked about before of like, this feeling that, like, these smaller movies are coming in and getting these big nominations, and that has led to a feeling of increased irrelevance. Now suddenly the Sundance movies are the kind of more crowd pleasing or accessible ones. And it's the Cannes movies where you're like, this is international film. It is like often like a genuine art house film. It is going to be like, much more challenging in terms of its choices. That is now the force that we're seeing shape a lot of the Oscars. And now suddenly the Sundance pictures are looking like the kind of safer bets in terms of that sentiment of worrying about accessibility.
- [02:57]
B
And I think that reflects a festival that is still important but has lost maybe some of its white hot relevance. They could gain that back. So we're leading with Sundance talk because I'm currently there. Isn't that weird?
- [03:10]
A
That is weird. It's spooky.
- [03:12]
B
The magic of things. When you are watching or listening to this, I'm actually in Utah. Isn't that weird? And this is a big year for the festival. It's their last year in Park City. They're home for 40 plus years. They're moving to Boulder next year for various reasons. I think mostly come down to money. And I think it's arriving at a time when people are sort of not really sure what a Sundance movie is. Is it the quirky comedies you think of? I mean, everyone thinks that, like Juno premiered at Sundance. It didn't. It premiered at Toronto. But movies like that, because Little Miss Sunsh is sort of similar. That did premiere attendance. It went on to a Best Picture nomination and a win. Right. For Alan Arkin. But being on the ground there for the past decade plus, I have felt the festival sort of straining to figure out what kind of movies it should be showcasing. People who are going to the festival are like, what am I expecting here? And it's interesting that the last two really big, like, well, relatively speaking, Sundance to Best Picture nominee conversions have been Train dreams and past lives. Movies that I could easily have seen premiering at Cannes.
- [04:20]
A
Sure.
- [04:21]
B
You know, yeah, they feel a little bit more cinematic and poetic than I think of a Sundance movie being.
- [04:28]
A
Yeah, they're not like Happy Texas. Right? Like, they're not what we often associate with Sundance for Better and Worse, which has been these kind of very quirky, offbeat, but like, still, like fairly crowd pleasing, scrappy movies that, you know, kind of like are a little saucy but are ultimately heartwarming. And I feel like, no past lives and train dreams, aim for something else.
- [04:52]
B
They're like uncertain regard movies, you know, like the Cannes sidebar. You know, I think about, like being at Sundance, I guess it would have been in 2015, and going to the Eccles, the big high school auditorium, which is the big theater where things screen there and sitting down for a screening. The premiere of Brooklyn, the John Crowley movie with Saoirse Ronan. And I was like one of two press people that I knew there, which is rare because you think, oh, it's a big. There must have been something cooler at the library, which is the somewhat smaller room that premieres, like, you know, eighth grade and things like that. Cool things like that. And I was like, I guess I kind of get it, though, because Brooklyn, which is this stately period, sweet period romance, you know, whatever, it doesn't feel very Sundancey. And yet that was the movie that year that really, like, took it all the way to the Oscars.
- [05:42]
A
Yeah. I mean, there are often also. I don't think that this is where Brooklyn premiered, but, like, the international sections at Sundance are often, like, just vastly ignored. Right. Even though they have, like, yielded occasionally very talked about movies. We think about Sundance as much as we think about it still and try to figure it out as, like, the place for American independent film. And part of the reason that I have like, not. I am not in Utah right now, as we speak, through the magic of anything, I'm here and you're in Utah. I'm not here that I haven't really pushed to go much in the last few years because I've just felt like when I. When I've been to Sundance lately or looked over the lineup, just been like, man, American independent film is down bad lately.
- [06:22]
B
Well, I mean, if I can speak candidly, there are times in recent years where I'm like, I'm sitting here in the Eccles watching Tribeca movies. Why am I watching Tribeca movies at Sundance? And, like, to explain, like, Tribeca, it comes after Sundance. And so the thinking about that festival is it gets the kind of dregs that Sundance didn't pick up or south by didn't pick up. And I just don't think that the amount of independent American films are being made to, like, that Sundance can, like, skim off the top. You know, they're kind of having to dig a little deeper.
- [06:49]
A
Yeah. And I think that a lot of American independent filmmakers who are making work that, like, feels maybe more offbeat or like, maybe more like kind of artistically or thematically ambitious, they often end up, like you said, like, going vying for a slot of Cannes or Locarno or, like, these European festivals that feel like they anoint your film with this, like, seriousness that Sundance at this point doesn't. I mean, like, there was a time a few years ago I was watching mostly, like, like, remotely watching some of the films, and I was just like, I, like, feel like so many of the films at Sundance are just like calling cards now to be like, give me an apple original series or, you know, like, like, put me in the mix for directing, like, whatever installment of the latest franchise.
- [07:30]
B
I just want to buy a house in Los Feliz.
- [07:33]
A
Or like, I just want to be a commercial director. Here is me making a movie that was made on the relative cheap, but like shows my commercial instincts.
- [07:40]
B
Yeah.
- [07:40]
A
And I feel like that's one of the reasons it just doesn't feel that interesting. That and the fact that other movies I saw would be like, everybody's like, this feels like it was made by a creative director on sabbatical. And like, which is to say it feels like someone's personal enrichment project rather than like, oh, this is something that like was fighting to get out. Like I, you know, like this is an idea that like I've been stuck with. It's more. It has more felt like it would be such a nice thing for me to do to, to make an independent film, you know?
- [08:05]
B
Yeah, yeah.
- [08:06]
C
So you can just, you can just watch these movies like virtually now.
- [08:11]
B
Some of them since the Pandemic, they introduced an online platform basically. So they. So the 2020 festival happened in person. That was like promising young woman Minari, a couple other big eventual Oscar players, partly because the rest of the season, the year got fucked up. And so Sundance benefited from the fact that like, well, everyone saw our movies in the real way. So they. But they introduced an online thing and then in 20, because of like the Omicron or the Delta variant, they had to cancel the fest, the in person festival, very last minute. So like I took a huge bath on like my Airbnb which was non refundable whatever. And that was when the online platform really became sort of, you know, it was really put into place that year and the festival made a ton of money from it.
- [08:57]
A
Yes.
- [08:57]
C
Oh yes. So you can just get like a ticket for the virtual world.
- [09:00]
B
You can buy virtual tickets? Yes. No, it's basically double tripling their, their sales. Yeah.
- [09:07]
A
So not everything goes on like is digitally available. And also like it should be said they, I think they like, they sell a limited amount of tickets, like virtual tickets. They try and make. So it's not just like, oh, this is the equivalent of getting dumped on streaming now. No streaming thing will want to buy.
- [09:23]
B
You know, like there's demand. Yeah, they want.
- [09:24]
A
So they try and limit it. They try and make it to feel like, yeah, it is like, you know, they're both like touting it for like greater accessibility for people who cannot make it to the extravagantly expensive to attend Sundance Film Fest. But also there is this like weird strata that forms which is like if you are in a competition, you have to be Available digitally. That's part of the rules of Sundance. But if you are say past lives, you know, like the A24 film, which already had A24 as a distributor, you were going to go in as like a premiere screening or you know, whatever their designation is.
- [09:55]
B
Non competition.
- [09:56]
A
Non competition. So you get the showcase at the festival, but you don't have to put your film online because there's no benefit for you. You're like going to be. This film is going to be released.
- [10:04]
B
In theaters like last year. Show there's a. There a potential real serious downside.
- [10:09]
A
Right. So like piracy. Yes. Twinless, which is a film that we both like. You're a huge fan of this film with Dylan o' Brien and then also Selena Ilostinos, the Selena documentary. Both of those were pirated by like they. I mean both of them, I think like speaking to like the enormous fan bases that like, you know, have like interest in them. But like Twin List, they like people clipped the Dylan o' Brien sex scenes and just put them online.
- [10:34]
B
I apologize for that.
- [10:35]
A
Just you're like, those were for private. Those were for private use. They were intended for private use.
- [10:40]
B
I thought Twitter was private.
- [10:42]
A
Yeah.
- [10:42]
B
When I uploaded it.
- [10:43]
A
Often the case downfall of many has come from that. And then the Selena talk is just like, you know, there's obviously still huge.
- [10:49]
B
Enormous.
- [10:50]
A
Yeah. But yeah, I think, I mean you could certainly.
- [10:53]
B
And that affected sales for Twin List for sure.
- [10:55]
A
Are you.
- [10:55]
B
Yeah, like it was one of the bigger hits at the festival, but it didn't sell forever because I think a lot of potential distributors were like, well, it's already online.
- [11:01]
A
Yeah.
- [11:01]
B
So now and this year they're. They've scaled it way back and so it. The competition films are still on the online platform, but almost nobody else is willing to go on there. Which I get.
- [11:14]
A
Yeah, yeah. And I. And I think it creates like a weird burden on the competition films where you are going to be. As much as they've taken all of these precautions to try and stop piracy from happening, you are more exposed and your film will have had a life online long before you know, you necessarily have distribution. So I think it is one of the benefits of having an in person only event which is like this whole other window that films count on, which is your digital release eventually is not imperiled.
- [11:45]
B
Yeah. And it affects the buzz. Weird. I don't want to imply that there aren't still good things that happen in Sun. I really like Twinless. I really liked I had Legs. If I had legs, I'd Kick you. That was their. They're really doing well in documentaries. The perfect neighbors nominated. But Sundance, I think, really has to fight to rebuild its sense of occasion and exclusivity. And the online thing, while a necessary function of the pandemic, I think, should have stopped immediately when vaccines went out. But the problem was the institute was making too much money off of it.
- [12:18]
A
Right. And they had such a good narrative of being like, this is about accessibility. And you're like, but it's just another means.
- [12:24]
B
And then if they scale it back, then a lot of people who had saw Sundance movies for the first time are like, wait, all of a sudden, now you're taking it? And so they created this real PR problem in addition to a financial problem. And it's just a festival at a lot of different crossroads. And I'm sure they're very happy in some sense that, like, train Dreams managed to, like, cut through all of that and, like, sustain itself from January to January to. To end up with, like, some Oscar attention.
- [12:51]
A
Yeah. What. Okay, so aside from Coda, what would you say are some of the most famous movies, like Best Picture contenders that have come from Sundance?
- [13:01]
B
That is a great question. There have been a lot.
- [13:05]
A
Do you associate. Let's say yes. Okay, so Minari.
- [13:08]
B
That feels, like, very Sundancey to me.
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A
The father. Do you associate that with.
- [13:14]
B
Yes, because I saw it there, and I, like, stumbled out of the Echols and was like, anthony Hopkins is gonna win Best Actor. And I guess I was right eventually. But. But no, again, the father. What. Why was that there? That. That's a. That's a Venice movie.
- [13:27]
A
Yes.
- [13:27]
B
Right.
- [13:28]
A
Yes.
- [13:28]
B
But for whatever reason, they decided that, like. Well, you know, look, there's a simple reason why they do this. Oftentimes the movies need to be sold.
- [13:34]
A
Yes.
- [13:34]
B
And. And. And Sundance is a huge buyer's market. But. But yeah, so the father. Sort of call me by your name 100%. I'll tell you why.
- [13:44]
A
Yes.
- [13:44]
B
That was at Sundance in 2017. There were two things happening. It didn't stop snowing for four days. Like, it was just relentless. So you're slogging through at one point, like, almost like. Like, thigh high snow. And January of 2017, I don't know if you remember this, but a certain president was sworn in.
- [14:04]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [14:04]
B
During, like, right at the beginning of the festival, there was a women's march on Main street that I tried to get to. I was in a bus stuck in crazy snowstorm traffic, and eventually we gave up, and everything just felt really dark and, like, scary and like, hard to navigate because of the snow. And you know, and then at like, I think it was like a 9pm premiere at the Eccles, like on, you know, I think the Saturday, I just went into that to see Comma by youy Name and felt like I was like thawing out both physically from the snow and like, emotionally and mentally. And so that is a cherished Sunday's memory.
- [14:41]
A
Do you know who was at that January 2017 Women's March?
- [14:44]
B
Who?
- [14:45]
A
Harvey Weinstein.
- [14:47]
B
That's a track. Sure.
- [15:00]
C
David.
- [15:00]
D
Yes.
- [15:01]
E
This episode is brought to you by mubi, the global film company that champions great cinema. It champions it unlike the others. No, they cry it barbarian it. From iconic directors to emerging ot, there is always something new to discover with mubi. Each and every film is hand selected, collected, so you can explore the best of cinema.
- [15:24]
D
You can log on to MUBI and check out all the movies they got. You know, art house, you know, cool indie stuff, foreign stuff.
- [15:30]
B
Okay.
- [15:31]
D
This is awesome. What? There's a movie star movie now streaming on MUBI in the US Covered on Blank Check.
- [15:37]
E
Well, I think that's the headline.
- [15:38]
B
Yeah.
- [15:39]
D
Die, My Love.
- [15:40]
E
Yes. You're gonna need to watch it if you want to keep up with the show.
- [15:44]
D
True, true. I mean, I guess, you know, do what you want. You don't have to. But we recommend viewing the film.
- [15:49]
E
Please view the film.
- [15:50]
D
Die, My Lovely Ramsay's film.
- [15:52]
B
Great.
- [15:53]
D
Out last year. It was a canon that came out last fall in 2025. It's a visceral and uncompromising portrait of a woman engulfed by love and madness. Starring Jennifer Lawrence, who was nominated for a Golden Globe, Robert Pattinson. It's kind of mostly those two. So very heavy on the two of them.
- [16:09]
E
Yeah, some. Some top shelf Nolte. I was gonna say some seasoning of Nolte and Spacek, but this is dry.
- [16:17]
D
Age, let me tell you. Oh, yeah, you've got them in there, but yeah, it's a lot. It's a big showstopper movie for J. Law and our paths. Yeah, our Pat's knows he's playing second fiddle.
- [16:31]
E
Sure.
- [16:31]
D
But then there's busting out the cello.
- [16:33]
E
A lemon pepper dry rub of Nick Nolte.
- [16:36]
D
I love lemon pepper, guys.
- [16:38]
E
I love Nick Nolte.
- [16:39]
D
I love Nick Nolte too. Look, it's Lynn Ramsey making her eagerly awaited filmmaking return. Obviously, that's why we're covering her pod, because we've been waiting for her.
- [16:46]
B
Yes.
- [16:47]
D
To make another movie. And it was on the shortlist for cinematography, the 90th Academy Awards. I didn't even know that. That's awesome. It's a passionate, complicated, destructive love story between two major stars in Lawrence and Pattinson, who'd never been together on screen before.
- [17:02]
E
I know.
- [17:03]
D
I guess that's not that surprising. But they are quite a pair.
- [17:06]
E
The Bat and the Cat. K A T N I S S oh, Katniss. Yeah.
- [17:12]
D
The Bat and the Mystique. Mystique.
- [17:14]
B
That is.
- [17:15]
E
Oh, sure.
- [17:15]
A
Yeah.
- [17:16]
D
It's an awesome movie.
- [17:16]
E
It's an awesome movie. I mean, is that something. He's played a lot of freaks. Sure, sure.
- [17:21]
D
The spoiler alert for the episode. But I was a big fan of the film. I know you were, Ben.
- [17:25]
E
Have you seen it yet?
- [17:26]
D
I haven't seen it yet.
- [17:27]
E
You're gonna like it a lot.
- [17:28]
D
It's also based on a book by Ariana Horwitz.
- [17:32]
E
Anyway, there's so much good stuff to.
- [17:34]
D
Watch on movie, but there's also awesome other good.
- [17:36]
E
Look, if you're not a member, this is a perfect month to sign up. In order to keep up up with the show, to stream the best of cinema, you could try mubi free for 30 days@mubi.com blankcheck that's m u b I.com blankcheck for a whole month of great cinema for free.
- [18:00]
C
Can I ask what makes something a Sundance movie as opposed to a Venice movie? Like, you talk about these things as though they have, like, specific characters. Like, give me what makes a Sundance movie a Sundance movie?
- [18:12]
A
Yeah, I mean, I feel like what makes a Sundance movie a Sundance movie, beyond its American ness usually, is that it tends to. Yeah. Like, have a bit of a, like, conventional arc underneath, layers of kind of quirkier trappings. That, for me, is one of the main things. One of the reasons we're like, you know, like Brooklyn, you know, was a Sundance movie, but it doesn't really feel like a Sundance movie. Whereas Manchester by the Sea feels like a Sundance movie and was a Sundance movie.
- [18:44]
B
Small, American, you know, auteur driven, which most festival movies are auteur driven. But like. But American. Yeah. The American ness of it, I think is big. I also think that there's. They have people who come back, you know, with every subsequent movie. They do, you know, some of them migrate to other festivals. But, like, it's hard to say, Ben. It's a bit like porn. I know it when I see it.
- [19:12]
A
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, I think an interesting case is like Whiplash, right. Which was a 2014 Sundance movie. And it feels to me like a very 2014 or like a Sundance movie. But also I feel like if that movie were to premiere this year, it would be at, like, Venice. It would not be at Sundance, you know, I think.
- [19:29]
B
But I think Whiplash also had something that had qualities that were very Sundance, which is that the main one being that people knew who J.K. simmons was because he was a character actor, but no one knew. I mean, a lot of people didn't know his name. Miles Teller. Nobody knew who that was really. And Damien Chazelle. No one knew who that was. And so it was a discovery. And people, when they're at Sundance in particular, really like to come down from the mountaintop being like, well, have I got the film and the filmmaker and the star for you? You know, like, I discovered something strange and rare up in the mountains. Um, and that can be complicated over the years when, like, suddenly Taylor Swift is premiering her Netflix documentary there and big, big movie stars are doing movies with big directors. At Sundance, it stopped feeling like this organic indie discovery machine and, like, just promo and sales.
- [20:21]
A
I think it also, like, it no longer is a place that exists kind of as a counterpoint to mainstream commercial studio as much as, like, whatever that means these days. I mean, now it is. Just feeds into it, you know, I mean, I was looking back at the 2010, these two 2010 films, one of them classic, to your point. Winter's Bone. Right. Starring a baby face. Jennifer Lawrence.
- [20:44]
B
Yeah. Breakout role from a director people were not that familiar with. She had one film and.
- [20:49]
A
And just like, also a terrific thriller that also was, like, set in, you know, like this kind of in the Ozarks. It was like, about this kind of slice of America that you don't. Yes, very much. Exactly. It was. And. And I mean, for better and for worse, a lot of Sundance movies also are like, look at poverty. Isn't it?
- [21:09]
B
100% Americana poverty.
- [21:12]
A
Yes.
- [21:12]
B
Dale Dickey being involved makes it a Sundance movie.
- [21:15]
A
Yeah, yeah. She's one of the main requirements. Yeah. Another one.
- [21:20]
B
She is, in fact, at a Sundance movie this year. Don't worry. Yeah.
- [21:24]
A
Or the kids are all right. A movie with big movie stars in it. But that is also about, like, you know, like both. It's about a lesbian couple. It's about sex. You know, like, it is like, so.
- [21:34]
B
You know, it's funny. It's also a little serious.
- [21:36]
A
Yeah, yeah. It is like a family dramedy, which is like a classic Sundance thing, but it is about topics and, like, with elements that feel more kind of grown up. Things that, like, mainstream Hollywood would not necessarily be willing to tackle certainly in 2010. So I feel like those are your classic Sundance type things.
- [21:53]
B
The political statements are less sweeping maybe, than you'd see at Cannes, where, like, whole movies are allegories for, like, the Romanian government, you know, like. Like quirky, smaller, a lot very American focused. That's a Sundance movie. Now the question is, is Train Dreams a Sundance movie?
- [22:09]
A
It does not.
- [22:11]
B
I mean, technically, yes, it is.
- [22:12]
A
Yeah. I mean, like. Yeah, it was at Sundance. Yeah. It. That's a good question. Because it does not feel. It does feel to me like something that I'd be more likely to see except that I will say this.
- [22:23]
B
Yeah.
- [22:24]
A
I like this movie. Okay. I do not like it, I think, as much as you do.
- [22:27]
B
No, I don't care for it at all.
- [22:29]
A
You loathe this movie.
- [22:29]
B
I really don't like this movie.
- [22:31]
A
Interesting. Okay. I think it's fine. I think it is, like, it is very safe with its kind of characters. Right. Like, it is, like. I think for all that, it is trying to be a sweeping story of, like, changing America over, like, decades through this one guy who was just, like, a cog in the machine, that it is, like, very kind of, like, inoffensive. It, like, sweeps away a lot of the kind of, like, darker, weirder stuff that happens. It happens. He observes it. He does not participate. Right. I don't know. In a weird way. You know what this makes me think of is the Luca Guadagnino film Queer.
- [23:07]
B
Say more.
- [23:08]
A
Yeah. Well, so where he was like, I read this William Burroughs novel when I was a teenager, and it was hugely meaningful to me as a gay man. Like, it was like this, like, kind of one of these early, like, formative experiences, like, with, you know, like, queer literature. And it was, like, influenced me, blah, blah, blah. But then also was like, no, this is a sweet love story. Like, this is not. This is not a movie. Like, this is not a movie about a guy paying teenagers for sex and, like, you know, doing smack in. In Mexico City. It is actually, like, an misunderstood love story. Yeah. And it was like. I know. I don't think it, like. Like, whatever. You can do what you want. You are adapting this. Right. But I was just like. I felt like it was someone trying to be like, I love this work, but also I need to sanitize it or, like, make it into something that is gentler and less spiky.
- [23:54]
B
Prettier.
- [23:55]
D
Yeah.
- [23:55]
A
And I feel like Train Dreams is, like, a gentle, inoffensive movie that also. I think it feels like it sands off, like, all of the, like, spikier stuff that is in the novel, but also, like, that is just, like, that could give you anything to kind of, like, stick to this character.
- [24:15]
B
And it sands that down for the sake of a sort of, like, homey but elevated profundity about, like, the human condition and life in America, that. I think the first time I saw this movie, I thought it was fine. And I liked the ending. Cause it's a wistful, pretty ending. I watched it again because I was doing some Q and A stuff for them, and I was like, okay. For whatever reason, in the third viewing, I was like, I'm now really not feeling this.
- [24:43]
A
It's the opposite of growing on you. Yeah.
- [24:45]
B
And I think what I kind of located was that the filmmaker, Clyn Bentley, he's a really nice guy. I think he has definitely clear talent visually and all that. So I'm not. Not describing him when I say the following, but, like, it just feels so straight. Guy with the cool haircut and desert boots and a flannel overshirt, waiting in line for a flat white in Echo park, but talking about this earthy time he spent out in the woods, like, connecting with, like, you know, log logging workers back, you know, like, it just feels. It feels kind of. And a bit like posery. And that's probably really uncharitable to say, but I just. This movie feels so fakey to me. And I think that part of that is because those edges are sanded down.
- [25:36]
A
Yeah. I mean, so we should also point out that Clint Bentley and Greg Kwidar are this kind of filmmaking team. They switch off directing, like, Mona Fast folder. They're not, as far as I know, married, but, like, maybe, you know, give them time. But. Yeah. So, like, where Greg Kuidar directed Sing Sing, which was kind of in the mix the other year. And. Yeah. So which is, like, I think, why. Also, they feel Sing Sing premiered at Toronto, but, like, they feel very. In this festival. Particular slice of festival, you know, is like, they've been working.
- [26:12]
B
Sing Sing not premiering at Sundance is crazy. Why wasn't that at Sundance?
- [26:15]
A
I know. It feels like an incredible. Yeah, they made Jockey before that, which was at Sundance in 2021 with Clifton Collins. Been working in this realm of trying to do kind of like, slightly more elevated, I guess, like, in terms of just, like, production value. In terms of, like. But, like, still, like, pretty classic Sundance stuff. Like, Right. Like, kind of.
- [26:37]
B
Yeah.
- [26:38]
A
Like, nothing. I would say the push is too hard.
- [26:41]
B
Sort of cool. Inspirational.
- [26:43]
A
Sure.
- [26:43]
B
Not, like corny inspirational, but like, uplifting in a way. Positive. I do also kind of think that, like, God love her, but, like, the Rider, Chloe Zhao's movie, the Rider really got in people's heads, and now a lot of people wanna make that movie.
- [26:59]
A
Yes.
- [27:00]
B
And there was a movie that was at Sundance last year or something. What's the one with the horse riding family?
- [27:07]
A
East of Wall.
- [27:07]
B
East of Wall. I watched that and I was like, okay, you can't just do the Chloe thing.
- [27:12]
A
Right.
- [27:12]
B
Right. You know, you can't just repeat the formula. Like, it doesn't really work. And I'm not saying that that's what Train Dreams or Jockey or whatever are doing. Exactly.
- [27:19]
A
Right. I mean, this does, like, Train Dreams, to distinguish them, is filled with professional actors. Right. As opposed to.
- [27:26]
B
And it's based on, like, you know, literature, you know.
- [27:29]
A
Yeah.
- [27:32]
C
Hey, Ben from the future here, we're gonna talk about the plot of Train Dreams. Now, if you don't want to hear any of that, you can skip forward 12 and a half minutes or you can just, you know, go watch it. It's out there on Netflix.
- [27:46]
A
I read the novel, like, very hastily, so the novella to kind of like. But, like, I. Like, I have read a few pieces that I thought were interesting. I didn't. I dwelled on the novel enough to really form an opinion on this. But, like, who felt like the problem with this movie is that it misses the point of the source material? And I'm like, I don't want to hold that against something, because sometimes you could be. Yes, like, trying to do something totally different, like, your project is your project. But I do feel like in making so much of this movie about him mourning his wife and child as opposed to them being, like, one element in this. Otherwise, you know, like, it becomes, like, very conventional in that sense. It becomes something that, like, is the core of, like, half of the Christopher Nolan movies, at least, which is, like, my job is taking me away from my faith.
- [28:37]
B
Are you saying that a lot of art recently has been a meditation on grief? Perhaps too much art.
- [28:42]
A
Also about being torn between your work, slash, maybe your calling, and then, you know, the family.
- [28:49]
B
That this is basically interstellar.
- [28:50]
A
Exactly.
- [28:53]
C
I think one of the deviations from the novella is that the Joel Edgerton character is more involved in the killing of the Chinese immigrant at the beginning of the story. And in the movie, he's sort of witness to it. And the way that he's haunted after the fact by that event makes. Makes Would make a lot more sense if he was somehow complicit.
- [29:20]
A
Yeah. Like, I think that the movie would like him to. Is worried about making him too unlikable. Even if it would be say, period appropriate for him to be like, oh, we're gonna go lynch this guy.
- [29:31]
B
I think he helps carry him.
- [29:33]
A
Yes.
- [29:34]
B
He throws him over the air.
- [29:36]
A
He like grabs his legs. But then it's like, keeps being like, what did he do? What did he do? You know, like, it does make it feel much more like he was just happened to be there. And his like guilt came from not. Not intervening, you know, as opposed to being like, oh, we helped try and you know, kill this guy who I think in the novel he escapes, he runs away. So like there is also this like possible threat, right, like of someone coming back. But yeah, like, I think that. I think the kind of like, like both of these things are front loaded too. Like the he. He runs into a guy like I. I think like a. Just someone who's riding the rails who is like got his like leg cut and is dying and gives him some.
- [30:17]
B
I think that's Clifton Collins.
- [30:18]
A
Yeah, Clifton Collins. And that's like just like a weird flicker of a moment, like this almost hallucinatory thing in the beginning montage. And then. Yes. But like, I think that like these like more jagged.
- [30:28]
B
And I think that character in the book or this novella like was a child molester or something. Like they take away some really dark details.
- [30:36]
A
Confesses that he molested his niece who got pregnant and then her dad like, like beat her to try and like make her miscarry and she died.
- [30:44]
B
Right. So really dark, really dark stuff.
- [30:46]
A
Yeah. Or like I think he has like a friend who in, in the movie he has a friend who runs a store. I think in the book that character is like more just like a guy who dies horribly through this like kind of random incident the first time he gets drunk and like. Yeah, like these are like much darker fragments that also I think like the ways in which they affect this character are feel like kind of like less clear and interesting. Whereas I think in the movie you just get this sense that he is kind of. He is gliding along but maybe haunted a bit. Right, that's it. Like his main quality is feeling haunted.
- [31:22]
B
Quietly haunted.
- [31:23]
A
Yes. And I feel like the idea of being like this like pebble being thrown into this enormous rushing stream of kind of like industrial change and history does not come through as much because it is sort of just about a guy sad about his family and it sort.
- [31:41]
B
Of mythologizes a period of American, you know, history that like, yes, was progress, but Also like brutal and violent, like All American Progress tends to be. And I think you really lose. You lose the more profound meaning on the positive side if you don't have the negative. Because I think this movie just kind of, like you said, floats along. It has this beautiful ending that is very reminiscent of like 20th century women's. I mean, both end in biplanes with a narrator talking about the end of their life and whatever that is speaking to the smallness of his life. But the profundity of that smallness, but also the profundity of his just tiny part in the bigger, like broader swirl of history and American ecosystem. But you're like, but I don't really. What are you tethering this to? Like, I don't feel like there's any event even in some ways the death of his wife and child significant enough to sort of earn this big profundity at the end that I think on my first two viewings I was like, no, that's enough. The ending is powerful enough that I think the whole movie has sort of can stand on its own. And I just don't know if I feel that anymore. I don't mean to come down hard on the movie because I do think it is well intentioned. I just think it handles stuff with kid gloves where especially right now, given what America is both revealing of itself currently, but also of its past. It's just like we don't. Let's be a little more honest about where we are and where we live.
- [33:03]
A
Yeah, I think so. Why do you think this movie got traction? Is it because it feels like it's nice?
- [33:09]
B
I think the ending, honestly, I think it looks great. I think Will Patton's voiceover is like selling that movie really well, you know, And I think that at Sundance last year, you had if I had legs, which was completely off putting to so many people at the festival. Just as many people liked it, but it was ditto twinless, which, you know, had gay sex scenes and blah, blah, blah. And then you start to kind of pick away at the other highlights. Sorry, baby. You know, was maybe not. What I'm saying is I think a lot of straight guys really liked it.
- [33:44]
A
That's fair. Okay. Yeah, yeah. It also, I mean, it has like, yes, like dad angst, which I think is something that does seem to keep going over well. Can we talk about Edgerton a bit? Because he feels like one of those guys that has just been around forever but like never gotten the role though. I don't know. I have a personal favorite. Egerton role. But is there something for you that stands out otherwise for.
- [34:10]
B
Well, I just want to remark on his completely normal career. I mean, so many actors have been in Train Dreams, directed Boy Erased, co written a Shakespeare adaptation for Timothy Chalamet. Like his career has so also been in the Great Gatsby. He's had such a weird career both in front of and behind the camera. But I'm curious what your. What you think he's doing.
- [34:28]
A
I was also gonna mention he produced the Plague, which was like a great movie that just kind of into nowhere. Like, unfortunately just came out at the worst possible time. Like it got a Christmas release, but is like a kind that was the better movie about kind of like crowd bullying. Kids bullying each other with this about a disease at Cannes this year. Much less high profile than alpha. But yeah, and he produced that and is in it. And you're like, oh, that's interesting. Like he made this happen for like a first time filmmaker. He just spotted talent. I think the best Exodus role is clearly Warrior. Talking about straight male angst. I love warrior.
- [35:05]
B
People upstage are agreeing with you, Alice.
- [35:06]
A
I know. I love that. Warrior is a great movie. I've talked someone into watching it recently who was like, yeah, you're right. But it's. He. Even in that he plays like the less flashy guy, right? Like Tom Hardy is there with no neck. He looks like he's built like a minotaur. He's like so. And is like. Comes in, like, rushes in to fights and like beats people bloody in like two seconds and then rushes off again. And then meanwhile, you have Joel Edgerton as like the. The high school teacher who is like getting back into MMA because he's underwater on his mortgage. You know, like, he is almost always the more regular guy or the. The kind of like more unassuming guy. And in this movie, he is playing an unassuming guy that is like the like kind of definitionally like this guy who leaves no trace. Right. Like at the end, it's like he had left no heirs, he had no family.
- [35:53]
B
Nature literally just reclaims him like as if he never existed.
- [35:56]
A
He like becomes like a. Yes, like a fertilizer bed at the end.
- [36:00]
B
Like Stephen King in the Creep Show.
- [36:01]
A
Exactly, but in a. In a poetic way.
- [36:04]
B
In a beautiful, pristinely framed and lit way.
- [36:09]
A
Yeah, yeah. So I, I mean, like, is there something funny about the fact that it like just like this is the role that this has happened? Like, like, kind of like. I mean, he. He did not get the nomination, but like, this is the role that's like.
- [36:21]
B
I think it's one of those things where, you know, you need a familiar face to take you through this sort of like wandering, sort of dreamy thing. You know, he's a good person to sort of like have lead you through that. Everyone has seen him in something and probably liked him in that thing. You know, it is funny that like, this Australian guy's playing this American Everyman, but like, whatever. That's the era we live in.
- [36:47]
A
He's done it a few times now. He's kind of one of our. Go to Everyman. Yeah, but I don't know.
- [36:51]
B
Cause I tend to think of him as sort of more menacing. But Great Gatsby, Animal Kingdom. You know, he wrote. He directed this. Written. He wrote and directed this movie called the gift in 2015 where. Well, there's sort of a twist in that movie that I won't spoil. But like, he's kind of playing a creep in that. So to see him, like softer, gentle teddy bear. I mean, he played a great Falstaff in the King, the Timothy Chalamet movie I alluded to. Yeah, he makes sense because he is sort of the actor equivalent in this of like the flannel overshirt orange at the Echo Park Cafe.
- [37:23]
A
Yeah, no, that's true. It's also. It's funny because you're like, this is a role that requires someone to be like. To not give you a lot. You know, like, he. I think he is compelling. Like, he holds his screen. As you said, he barely talks in this movie and he does not feel like he knows what's going on much or has much control of his life.
- [37:42]
B
Nor does he care to.
- [37:43]
A
Yeah, like really. Right. Like the idea of having. I mean, that's. I think the most interesting part about this movie to me is the idea of grappling with the idea of feeling like, you know, you have no. Not even. You have no agency. Which I mean, also you could argue is like a much more contemporary expectation. But like, that you. The idea of even occurring to you that you could have agency is gone. You know, like, you just take life as it comes to you on a moment to moment.
- [38:08]
D
Yeah.
- [38:08]
B
I mean, maybe in some ways he represents like the sort of final generation of like pre New Deal, pre union people who were like, oh, I'm just part of. I just get an honest wage. But also like, you know, like when.
- [38:24]
A
When guys get like stuff dropped on them or they have to keep working, they're like, you have no power to.
- [38:28]
B
Be like nails, boots to the tree.
- [38:29]
A
Exactly. You're like, whoops, yeah, that branch just killed you.
- [38:32]
B
I mean, there are interesting things in the movie. I feel bad that I said I really didn't like it. No, I appreciate, like, yeah, I just like they're just something independent film apart. Right. I know this well intentioned, genuinely from nice people, like who I've met. Like I went to a dinner like with them in Savannah and that was back when I was more positive on the movie, I think. But like they were all very nice and earnest and I like that. And I like that. Of all of the sort of bigger, flashier things that Netflix had this year, that Train Dreams is the one that sort of stuck it out alongside Frankenstein all the way.
- [39:05]
C
Can I say something just nice about Train Dreams? I think the score in this movie is really, really lovely. It's by Bryce Desner, who is one of the members of the National. Speaking of like flannel clad Maggie Rock.
- [39:24]
B
I'm telling you, I'm onto something.
- [39:26]
C
Yeah. But the, I don't know what set this movie apart from like other kind of malicky, you know, visually dense movies is that the score really has a pulse to it. I don't know, it keeps the movie moving in a way for me.
- [39:41]
B
Yeah. No, the aesthetics in the movie, like all of the technicals are really, really great. And I should say, Ben, if you like Bryce Desner score for this. Have you seen the Mike Mills film? Come on, come on.
- [39:51]
C
No, No, I haven't.
- [39:52]
B
Okay. That's A, a beautiful movie. B, the score for that is something if I. If I need a cry, I put that on. I put the last little selection from that soundtrack on. So you should listen to it. He's an incredible composer. I love his work. I wish he worked more.
- [40:14]
E
David.
- [40:14]
D
Yes.
- [40:15]
E
Let me put this into a language that you'd understand because you don't glasses.
- [40:19]
D
No, I don't.
- [40:19]
A
No.
- [40:20]
D
Sometimes a sunglass, never an eyeglass.
- [40:22]
E
Some big, strong, tall guy with perfect vision.
- [40:24]
D
2015, baby.
- [40:26]
E
Listen. Some of us used to have to engage an experience that was like the, the worst of slow cinema. Trying to pick out a new pair of glasses. It was an impossible, tedious process. That made you ask. Is there a point to this?
- [40:44]
D
Yeah, it does sound quite irritating.
- [40:46]
E
But since I made the switch to Warby Parker, a big switch in my life that has changed the last decade of my life. I've become basically a Warby Parker absolutist.
- [40:56]
D
And you probably lose a pair of glasses every other week.
- [40:58]
E
That's not true. That's actually not true.
- [41:00]
D
Okay.
- [41:00]
C
I'm so sorry.
- [41:01]
E
I usually find them after a while, but the experience. Yes. Of picking out new glasses of Warby Pop Parker. It's just like a quibi or two, it seems. Do you understand how I converted this to your language? Yeah.
- [41:15]
D
And it costs a micro. Black hat.
- [41:17]
A
Oh, my God.
- [41:19]
E
Ella McKay actually might be the new black hat. Glasses Shopping. Used to be. And Ben can back me up on this.
- [41:25]
D
Yes.
- [41:26]
E
So complicated and overpriced. Over complicated and overpriced. I'm trying to buy glasses. I don't want to feel like I need a spreadsheet to understand what's going on on. Spreadsheets are what we use for this podcast, not glasses Shopping. But at Warby Parker, they have their specialists there. It's so easy to try on pairs, to browse the website, do virtual try on to see how they look on your face, which I love. Love that. Right.
- [41:55]
D
You take a little pic and then you. It shows you what it looks like on the face.
- [41:58]
E
Live time, live tracking. It's like seeing the piece of furniture.
- [42:02]
D
In your room, right?
- [42:03]
E
Yes.
- [42:03]
D
And glasses are the furniture of the face.
- [42:05]
E
They are. They're the windows of the face. Because the eyes are the windows to the soul. That's the soul. So that's like. All right, drapes on the window.
- [42:13]
D
What are you wearing right now?
- [42:14]
E
What am I wearing right now? The toddy.
- [42:16]
B
Oh, yes. Okay.
- [42:19]
E
And dare I say it?
- [42:20]
D
They're hot.
- [42:21]
E
They're pretty. You're not supposed to take it out of my mouth. This is my. That was my line that I was teeing. I teed it up. And then you stepped in front of the ball. Back that tortoise shell, perhaps.
- [42:33]
D
I. I've never worn prescription Morby Parkers. I have worn many a sunglass, though, and they do have nice sunglasses. I always get compliments.
- [42:39]
E
Well, well, well.
- [42:41]
D
They are always.
- [42:41]
E
I'm not going to give you one now. You're not wearing them.
- [42:43]
D
No. I would be a little obnoxious to wear sunglasses indoors. You can always tell they're really well made, they're solid. They don't just, like, fall apart on you.
- [42:50]
B
No.
- [42:50]
E
And they're also. These prescription classes start at $95, so if they were to break a thing I have not experienced often, or you were to lose them a thing. That doesn't happen to me that often. It doesn't feel like you're putting yourself into jeopardy.
- [43:08]
D
I also want to point out every pair the War Vorker sells, they also give a pair to someone in need. They've distributed over 20 million pairs of glasses to people in need through its Buy Pair Giver program. And they're on most eye insurance plans. So if you're eligible for that, they'll automatically apply the insurance plan to you.
- [43:24]
E
They have so many locations and they're not just about glasses. They got contacts, they got online eye exams in person. Eye exams look.
- [43:31]
D
Warby Parker gives you quality and better looking prescription eyewear at a fraction of the going price. Our listeners get 15% plus free shipping when they buy two or more pairs of prescription glasses at warbyparker.com check, check. That's 15% off when you buy two pairs of glasses at w a r b y parker.com check. After you purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show's interest you.
- [43:58]
A
Please. Can we talk about the Netflix of this all a bit?
- [44:08]
B
Yeah.
- [44:08]
A
Okay. So Netflix has been trying now and that's a.
- [44:11]
B
What is that? That's a. I get the discs in the mail and then I send them back.
- [44:14]
A
You send them back but make sure they're all scratched up first.
- [44:16]
B
That's like part of when I moved apartments most so like five years ago, my, my, my last move, I found one Netflix dvd. It was like in a box or something. Could you ever guess what it is?
- [44:31]
A
Was it Asia Argento's Scarlet Diva? Because that was the one I had sitting around for like several maybe like a year without having not watched.
- [44:41]
B
I wish it was. That would be better. It was a movie called the Switch that is basically centers around Jason Bateman Seaman as it pertains to Jennifer, a movie I never watched. But I had the DVD for some reason. Forever.
- [44:56]
A
Yeah. I don't know if I ever watched Scarlet Diva. No. Do you know what I did? Because there is. She directed it. There is a long scene in which she just puts on her own eye makeup and I'm like, that is autourism.
- [45:06]
B
I was gonna say we can co opt the blank check Patreon and we'll do a watch along to the Switch.
- [45:12]
A
Yes.
- [45:12]
B
And yours.
- [45:13]
A
Everyone will love it.
- [45:14]
B
Yes. But yes, the Netflix.
- [45:15]
A
So Netflix has been trying now for Oscars for since what?
- [45:22]
B
Roma.
- [45:23]
A
I guess like before Roma. Like it's been I think a solid decade at this point. Right. And I do get the feeling that maybe like not that they're going to stop doing this anytime soon, but maybe like a certain amount of like investment in this is. They're starting to question.
- [45:44]
B
Yeah.
- [45:45]
A
You know, like the years in which they just did this enormous spend on A bunch of stuff, including movies that no one expected to go anywhere, like the King say, which they did. They were obligated to do a certain Push Awards Push.
- [46:02]
B
It was at Venice. It was supposed to be Timmy's coronation or another one of those coronations.
- [46:06]
A
It did not go anywhere. But. So I don't know. In this case, we have a kind of classic Netflix situation, which is to say they had a bunch of movies that on paper looked like they were made to win Oscars.
- [46:17]
B
Noah Baumbach, Katherine Bigelow, you know. Oh, Edward Berger. Who's all quiet.
- [46:22]
A
Exactly. And all of those movies turned out to be non existent. In one case. This never made. J. Kelly.
- [46:29]
B
No, they said they were going to. They announced it. Everyone got too busy.
- [46:34]
A
George Clooney, he's got a lot going on. He's got kids now. Yeah. The only one of this slate of movies that has gotten traction in ways that I think still kind of surprise us is Frankenstein. Of like the movie, but that's a.
- [46:46]
B
Doc, so it's different.
- [46:47]
A
Yeah. I mean, you know, it's got a lot of authenticity behind it, but. Yeah. And then Train Dreams, which they bought at Sundance. Oh, and then K Pop Demon Hunters, which they bought off of Sony. Sony, who clearly had never expected that it would become the phenomenon that it did. And I don't. Maybe it wouldn't have in the same way if they had put it out, like, as a release, you know, in a kind of like. I don't know, like maybe.
- [47:14]
B
My hunch is that. I hate to even say this. I think it needed the accessibility of streaming to take off the way.
- [47:20]
A
Yeah. Because people kind of of saw the combination of things. It was promising. Kids loved it.
- [47:24]
B
Then you can rewind and play the song again. I mean, song. It's a great song.
- [47:28]
A
It's a great song.
- [47:28]
B
There is a great song.
- [47:30]
A
Yeah.
- [47:30]
B
Those songs and at home you can do it. And then it. Then it. Then it builds snowballs into a thing that then you're like, okay, for your 19th viewing, we're going to see it in a theater.
- [47:37]
A
Because they put it right and it made a lot of money that way.
- [47:40]
B
It did.
- [47:41]
A
But yeah, like, Netflix has not had a great time developing stuff in house that has been Oscar y. I mean, look, they have.
- [47:50]
B
I think I just did a count. They have 11 best picture nominations since 2019. But then when you actually look, and I'm not maligning these films necessarily, you got your Manx, you got your Irishmans, you've got your trials with Chicago Sevens, you've Got your. Well, Emilia Perez's, your maestros. I mean, those are movies that have their merits. I really like some of those movies. I don't hate any of those movies. Don't look up. I do hate. But they're not like, you know, the movies of that year. They don't. They have not really found that yet. I think Roma, weirdly, their first, came closest to that in some ways, though also maybe Emilio Perez last year. Cause it was the villain of that year.
- [48:34]
A
Yeah, well, I think. And so Netflix has been, I mean, a kind of ongoing Oscar villain in terms of the industry because of how they've been perceived as increasingly as just eroding, you know, the foundation of Hollywood and kind of pushing everybody and also.
- [48:50]
B
Like social life in the world.
- [48:52]
A
Yes, right, right.
- [48:53]
B
About being like third spaces, third places.
- [48:55]
A
They'Re getting rid of. Yeah. I never forget. Was it Ted Sarandos, I think, who said no, like, years and years ago. Just a quote that is etched into my brain forever that Netflix's main competitor is not like the other studios. Netflix's main competitor is Sleep. That is one of those things where you're like, no, keep that to the investor.
- [49:11]
B
He finally killed Morpheus, got asleep last night.
- [49:14]
A
But don't say those things out loud. But so, so. And of course, like, Netflix this year is being set up as, like, one of two villains competing to buy Warner Brothers. You know, I feel like I. I don't know that anyone is taking, like, has, like, any, like, thing to root for in that, but, like, you have, like, Warner Brothers, which has this year of, like, having a defining year of, like, releasing these.
- [49:35]
B
An admirable, commendable people should emulate year.
- [49:38]
A
You know, like, of. Of like, making these movies that are made from, like, incredible, like, with real authorship that also, like, you know, were incredible theatrical experiences and that people were talking about and that made money, if not maybe as much money as some people would have liked, but like, like, true cultural phenomena, like, proof of, like, cinema being, like, alive and well. And of course, then the. The. The result.
- [49:59]
B
You're talking about Minecraft, right?
- [50:00]
A
Of course.
- [50:01]
C
Yeah.
- [50:02]
A
Hey, do you know what? Minecraft kids came out to see it. They were screaming chicken jockey stuff at the screen like that.
- [50:08]
B
And our coal production is. Is up through the roof because of all these new minors we have in our country.
- [50:14]
A
But. Yeah, so I feel like. I don't know how much do you think that a general skepticism, dislike of Netflix, which, I mean, the Netflix opening gets booed sometimes when their films play at festivals.
- [50:30]
B
Oh, especially overseas.
- [50:31]
A
Yeah.
- [50:31]
B
Overseas I mean, well, you don't see it. Cannes. Because they won't show them anymore.
- [50:35]
A
Yes.
- [50:36]
B
Because France has literal laws about what can play. It can. It has to be theatrical. And at some point, so. And so that Netflix had one year where they had movies. There was like, Okja and Meyerowitz stories and a couple other things, and that was it. I mean, looking at their Best Picture nominees, I'll just read them. Roma in 2019. Well, the 2018 movie. So this is the ceremony.
- [50:59]
A
Yeah.
- [51:00]
B
Roma. 2019. 2020, the Irishman. 2020, Marriage Story. 2021 was both Mank and Trial of the Chicago 7. A Covid year which Ben Netflix benefited from. 2022, Don and the Power of the Dog. 2023, All Quiet on the Western Front. 2024, Maestro. Last year, Emilia Perez. This year, Train Dreams. Looking at all of those, I'm like, there are maybe two Power of the Dog and Roma, where those kind of were the assumed Best Picture winners at some point in their seasons. And then I can't help but. And they both won Best Director. I can't help but think. Think a Netflix bias ultimately made them come up short.
- [51:45]
A
Yeah. And I feel like that bias is only more powerful.
- [51:49]
B
Now you're telling me if Roma had been a Focus Features thing or a Searchlight movie, that would not have won Best Picture?
- [51:55]
A
I think it probably would have, though. Also, remember how much money Netflix spent on Roma? Like, that is the one thing that they also.
- [52:01]
B
They invented a whole country called Mexico. I mean, it's crazy.
- [52:06]
A
You fully canceled? Canceled?
- [52:08]
B
I went to the party for Roma at Toronto and it was, like, decked out.
- [52:12]
A
They were not kidding around enormously. Yeah. I mean, like, no one spends like Netflix does on these things. They still. They have, like, a ability to splash out on this stuff in ways that, like, no one else does. And, I mean, I think that's a benefit. But also, I think people resent that. Like, you know, like the. Like just throwing enormous amounts, trying to, like, looking like you're trying to buy an Oscar.
- [52:34]
B
Yeah.
- [52:34]
C
Why do they want one so badly?
- [52:37]
A
They. Because everyone wants, like a. They want a trophy. Everyone wants approval. Everyone wants their peers to tell them they are not just really successful, but also so good at what they do. I don't. I mean, I know for a fact.
- [52:48]
B
And it would help attract further filmmakers.
- [52:51]
A
Right, right. I mean, like, they have such a kind of. They've had so much pushback from filmmakers who lately, you know, like, there was such a narrative for a long time, like the accessibility narrative. Like, oh, nothing will Put you out there, like, get your film out there, like, like Netflix. You, you know, you'll be available instantly around the world. But like, but like, the truth is, as we have seen things on Netflix come and go really quickly. They have a much shorter, like, life in the. In the conversation with, like, rare exceptions. And also it's just like a platform that suits itself to. To series, like, much more. Like series get better, you know, do much better on there. People seem to look for them more. But I think, like, right, like Bella Bajari, who is like the. The kind of head of like Netflix's original productions now, famously said in a New Yorker profile, like, that what they. To make now is the gourmet cheeseburger.
- [53:40]
B
Right?
- [53:41]
A
The thing that like, goes down very easily but is like, nicely made. And I think that you could argue whether they've actually achieved that. I feel like maybe they're aiming closer to maybe just a regular old McDonald's hamburger at this point with a lot of their stuff. At best, maybe a microwaved White Castle slider from the frozen food.
- [53:58]
B
Amtrak cheeseburgers.
- [54:00]
A
Speaking of trainers, I really like those cheeseburgers, though. There's something.
- [54:03]
B
Oh, do you? Well, because they're a specific kind of food. I know they're not a cheeseburger, they're an Amtrak cheeseburger.
- [54:08]
A
Um, but so, like, you know, you. You are putting out stuff that I think a lot of people internally, even no matter how much you've drunk the Kool Aid, with regard to like, Netflix's kind of branding and dominance, I think a lot of people will be like, yeah, I know a lot of this stuff is just slop. So I think, like, to counter that, they really, really want to be told like, oh, this Harlan Coban series that is like, you know, has been on the top 10 in streaming. It's also like, Emmy worthy, you know, like, they really want to be told, like, the stuff that they're doing already because it's so pop. Also, like, worthy of prizes.
- [54:41]
B
I have heard anecdotally that they are trying to. There's a concerted effort that I think like, something like the Beast in me represented last fall that, like, they're like, we need to have some TV shows that look good.
- [54:53]
A
Yeah.
- [54:54]
B
Because we're. We're losing that. That upper tier audience of like, snoots, you know, who, who are like, I'm not going to watch, you know, Georgia or whatever that show, you know, like, like, I'm not going to go that day down that level because. Because they want to. They want to Own everybody.
- [55:09]
A
Right?
- [55:09]
B
And if they don't make stuff that is respectable and looks good and whatever in TV or film, they're going to lose a certain contingent of people to the glossier, you know, stuff. I also think that, as Elon Musk teaches us, it is not enough to own everything and be the richest entity in the world. You also want to be funny and.
- [55:26]
A
Snl, you want to be like, everyone likes me. Yeah, yeah. Well, and I think also, you know, like, Ben and Matt, my close personal friends, you know, have just made a Netflix original movie called the Rip that of course is going to be an Oscar contender next year.
- [55:42]
B
But best rip got that sewn up.
- [55:46]
A
Best Joe Carnahan movie of the year. They went on Joe Rogan and they said something out loud that I feel like I have only ever seen reported, but, like, not attributed to a source, which is that they were like, yeah, you know, they were telling us, like, one, it's really good to have, like, a big action set piece in the first five minutes of the movie because, like, we need people to stick around. But two, it would be good if people could reiterate the plot a few times, like, because people are watching while on their phones. And that is something that I feel like has existed in a place of, like, semi confirmed. Like, oh, we know this to be true. But like.
- [56:22]
B
But mostly with TV series.
- [56:23]
A
Yes.
- [56:24]
B
Yeah.
- [56:24]
A
So to have actual. Not just name people who've made this, but big old movie stars be like, yes, we were told that you need to say what's happening in the plot more because people might not be paying.
- [56:34]
B
Attention in a two hour movie.
- [56:35]
A
Yeah, I think that that is one of the reasons that people are very increasingly skeptical.
- [56:40]
B
Is that why Joel Algerton keeps saying, I'm having a train dream?
- [56:43]
A
Yes, exactly. And then he goes, chugga, chugga, chugga, chugga.
- [56:45]
B
And they did that in anticipation of being bought by Netflix. They were like, let's just make it.
- [56:51]
A
Also, why there's that really kind of shocking giant action set piece in the start of the movie that we never go back to when they.
- [56:58]
B
The Rip. Yeah, yeah.
- [56:59]
A
I think he just shoots up so many people with a machine gun and then, like. And then we never talk about that again.
- [57:04]
B
And then Felicity Jones is like, wake up, you're having a train dream.
- [57:08]
A
He's like, what?
- [57:11]
B
No, that's so depressing and not surprising. But they're going to have to figure out a way to balance that sort of algorithmic thinking. Or like, like, not even algorithmic thinking, but, like, really grim. Like, AI Understanding of human behavior, which may be accurate with like this other thing where they are trying to attract top tier filmmakers, they haven't. It's debatable whether they lost Scorsese because he did go to Apple, he did Irishman with them, then he went to Apple to do Flower Moon. But the thing about Flower Moon is It costs like $900 million to make like. And even Netflix was like, I don't know about that. You know, Fincher has stayed loyal to them for the most part. They've, you know, they've campy and probably as grateful for, you know, they got an Oscar. They didn't get her, she did. But I do think when they have a year like this year where I don't know if I'm Kathryn Bigelow, I could be like, why'd you make my movie look like shit? Or if I'm Noah Baumbach, I'm like, you marketed this wrong. Or bubble. There are ways that Netflix could be blamed for the failures of some of its most high profile things and then also be like, but wait, this tiny little movie you bought at Sundance, that's the one that got Oscars. So it's bad for like attracting the A list talent in some ways. But also if Netflix is a, a big content moss sucking everything into it, this just gives them more evidence. When they sit down with a filmmaker at this year's Sundance, which I currently am at, and they say, come with us, let us buy your movie, your little movie. They can be like, well, look what we did for Clint and Train Dreams.
- [58:47]
A
Yeah. Though I also feel like there are so many counter examples where they bought something and it just plopped on there and then vanished.
- [58:52]
B
There are tons, right?
- [58:54]
A
Yeah.
- [58:54]
B
I always think about this filmmaker, Sarah Colangelo. Do you know who that is?
- [58:57]
A
No.
- [58:58]
B
And Netflix is probably to the blame. She made a remake of the movie the Kindergarten Teacher with Maggie Gyllenhaal, which is an incredible performance that should have gotten all the way to Oscar nomination. 100%. She's incredible. It's also a really well made movie. Netflix buys it, it completely disappears. Sarah Colangelo's next film, a really sturdy post 911 drama called Worth with Michael Keaton, a great Stanley Tucci, a really good Amy, renowned Ryan was at Sundance, Wasn't like one of the big hits at the festival, but I really liked it. Other people did too. They buy it, completely bury it, release it a year and change later on September 11th. Or at least around September 11th. Yeah, they did that twice to the same filmmaker.
- [59:40]
A
Yeah.
- [59:41]
B
And if I'm her, I'd be drunk at like industry parties being like, don't go to like, don't go to Netflix.
- [59:46]
A
I mean, like Richard Linklater, who's movie Vogue got bought by them. Like, like he. When they bought his animated film Apollo 10 and a half.
- [59:56]
B
Oh, right, right.
- [59:57]
A
A movie that might as well not exist. It, like, it, you know, they. They dropped it on Netflix. It got no attention at all. He in interviews afterwards complained about that. But then of course, when Netflix came around and like, threw up like tens of millions of dollars or whatever on the table for Hitman. Yeah, his investors.
- [60:15]
B
Sorry. Nope.
- [60:15]
A
That's what we're taking. And Hitman is a movie that I think would have had a much longer and like, more kind of like storied life if it had theatrical release, a real theatrical release. Like, it played so well in the room.
- [60:26]
B
Especially because at Venice. Yeah, I saw it at the Venice premiere and people applauded min movie at that one big scene. And he had done an interview for the festival that I read, I think before I saw the movie where he was like, I noticed that there aren't a lot of fun Saturday night date movies existing. So I wanted to make, you know, Hitman B. That the presumption, the implication being you leave your house with your partner and then an hour later it was like, Netflix buys it. No one's leaving their house ever again. It's depressing. The whole reason that movie existed was something that Netflix immediately squashed.
- [61:06]
A
Yes. And then this year they bought Nouvelle Vague, one of his two movies, and I think a really fun, delightful movie. Not.
- [61:15]
B
Not played well in Cannes, if you can imagine.
- [61:17]
A
Yes, yes. Somehow of the two of his movies this year, it was maybe the least easily awardsy one, though there were one or two plays they might have made. But they bought it and it really. Yes, again, might as well not exist. Whereas Blue Moon, his other movie this year with a very kind of Oscar y central performance. And this. It has gotten traction. Yeah.
- [61:38]
B
I mean, the new Evoke thing is interesting because after I saw that at Cannes, I was getting drinks with Kyle Buchanan and a couple other people being. Being like, well, Netflix buys that obviously. Right? Like that would be their foreign language play, whatever. And we were right. But I don't think I. Any of us at that table would have predicted that, like, come post nominations, it would have nothing. Like, it just didn't like.
- [61:59]
A
But the thing is, also, like, it was not a good foreign language play because.
- [62:02]
B
Because France wasn't going to pick it.
- [62:03]
A
France wasn't going to pick it. Right. And so. And France, you know, chose Panahi film.
- [62:07]
B
Of movie set in France. And about France, of course.
- [62:11]
A
And so like, yeah, it was really. It was a confusing pick for them. But yeah, if I were Richard Linkl later, I would be like, I'm so tired of having to pretend this is like a great thing when they swoop in.
- [62:33]
E
David Scoop. There it is.
- [62:36]
A
Look.
- [62:36]
E
This episode's brought to you by AG1.
- [62:38]
D
They definitely didn't tell you to say that in the comments.
- [62:40]
E
They've been a proud sponsor of this podcast for years. I've been a proud user endorser of their product.
- [62:47]
D
Yep, you do be scooping for as long.
- [62:49]
E
And you look like a marriage. You got to find ways to keep it fresh.
- [62:52]
D
Hardly scooping.
- [62:53]
E
I've not started an ad read yet with Scoop. There it is. But I. I do start every morning. Where the hearty scoop of AG1.
- [63:01]
D
Every morning. Now you just travel. Did you bring it with you?
- [63:03]
E
Yeah, I got those travel packs.
- [63:05]
A
Okay.
- [63:05]
E
You better believe it.
- [63:06]
D
Okay, good. I just know you were on. You were in California. I wondered if the AG one came with you.
- [63:10]
E
Yeah, it always comes with me. And it. If it hadn't, I wouldn't have made it back from California.
- [63:14]
D
Just would have gotten sent a pile of ashes.
- [63:16]
E
Yep. When it died on the Oregon Trail.
- [63:19]
D
In a cardboard box. Look. Sustainable health, Griff. It's about consistency, not perfection.
- [63:24]
C
Okay?
- [63:25]
D
Simplify your nutrition with AG1. You got a multivitamin, you got pre and probiotics, you got superfoods, you got antioxidants, all in one scoop.
- [63:32]
E
David, that's such a long list. I wouldn't know what to do if I needed to consume all those things separately.
- [63:36]
D
But of water Scoop.
- [63:38]
E
There it goes into the 8 ounces.
- [63:40]
D
It says 20 seconds. Is that like how long you keep it? You stir it around or whatever?
- [63:44]
E
I like to shake it.
- [63:45]
D
Oh, he shakes it.
- [63:46]
E
Shake it off.
- [63:47]
B
Shake it off.
- [63:48]
E
How many songs can I put in here?
- [63:49]
D
Yeah, I'm hearing this next gen formula. They've added more vitamins and minerals than ever.
- [63:53]
E
You better believe it.
- [63:54]
D
That are clinically proven to fill common nutrient gaps.
- [63:57]
E
Have you noticed that I'm a little further from death recently? It's because of that improvement to their formula.
- [64:03]
D
The nuclear clock went to two minutes to midnight after one year.
- [64:07]
A
Right.
- [64:09]
E
Let me tell you, if AG1 didn't exist, we would have been a black years ago.
- [64:13]
B
Yeah.
- [64:13]
E
Yeah.
- [64:14]
D
Well, you know what? AG1 is great. You use it every single day. Your very favorite flavor. Let me Guess still citrus.
- [64:22]
E
I'm rocking citrus right now. I've been doing the Tour. Look, I'll say this. I went, let me do three months of trying out the new flavors, you know, alternate between them. I think I like the idea of cycling to keep it fresh.
- [64:33]
D
Yeah, sure, right. You don't get bored of it. Makes it exciting. Look, AG1 has over 50,000 verified five star reviews and comes with a 90 day money back guarantee. Go to drinkag1.com check to get their best offer. Get a free AG1 flavor sampler and AGZ sampler to try all the flavors. Plus free vitamin D3 plus K2 and AG1 welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription order. That's drinkag1.com check. Drinkag1.com check. And it is impressive that I said all that with no mistakes.
- [65:02]
B
Yeah, that's a lot of letters that.
- [65:04]
E
Came out of your mouth so cleanly.
- [65:06]
D
I did my best.
- [65:07]
E
It's almost as if AG1 was helping the flow through your system.
- [65:12]
D
Scoop, there it is.
- [65:13]
E
Scoop, there it is. And everyone's saying scoop, there it is.
- [65:21]
B
So my question now would be nominations are out.
- [65:25]
A
Yeah.
- [65:25]
B
We've got, you know, just under two months before the big show. If you're Netflix, you've got Frankenstein who is like this big lumbering object you spent a billion dollars on and maybe has a good chance of winning in some craft categories. Maybe that's it. Do you devote all of your attention to that or do you try to keep the train dream's flame lit?
- [65:47]
A
Train dream alive. Yeah.
- [65:48]
B
Do you try to keep the train dream alive?
- [65:51]
A
I don't know. I think at this point they do have a lot of fair, very like, like experienced, well paid people who now are just going to have to. Only two things to focus on.
- [66:02]
B
Who are talented and lovely. I should add. I do like, you know.
- [66:05]
A
Yeah. So I feel like, I don't know, I mean like, I don't think they really stand much of a chance in, in terms of, and it is funny that like in terms of like adapted screenplay they're competing against each other. But I don't know.
- [66:20]
B
This is another year where they, it's, it's. They don't have a best practice picture this year. Like and I really did think this, this summer looking at their upcoming slate like Bombax do White Noise was just a weird little bobble like J. Kelly is gonna like do what marriage story couldn't or it'll be campy and again or it'll be this Edward Berger film no one knows anything about or It'll be Frankenstein if Frankenstein's good. And now it's like, oh, I don't think they have. There's not even close.
- [66:45]
A
No, there's no.
- [66:46]
B
And no wonder. Now they're trying to buy the studio. That's like eating their lunch. You know, it just feels very right.
- [66:51]
A
And I guess that's the interesting question then is like, in a future in which that deal goes through, presumably it will that. Do you feel like Netflix, like a Warner Brothers win under the auspices of Netflix, however, they're gonna start calling things, like, I don't know, what does that look like? Like, do we. Do people still feel like they're rooting for Warner Brothers in that context?
- [67:15]
B
I mean, like, super intra industry. If there are people they know still working there, maybe, but. But like, but no, I mean, because, like, any promise that Netflix is making. And look, Netflix puts out plenty of things I like, I don't, like, hate the company, but like, but, you know, anything that they're putting out, like, they're not gonna actually do real theatrical releases for Warner Brothers movies for very long, if they do it at all. You know, I'm sorry, I mean, maybe I'm wrong. I'll stand corrected. If that actually does happen. But, like, everyone knows that the erosion will happen inevitably and probably quickly, you know, and so, no, I think that you kind of lose a major player off the kind of award studio board when it comes to awards. Yeah, for sure.
- [67:57]
A
One last question. Do we think that Netflix pushes hard for being like, come see Train Dreams at this screening? Because it does obviously play better in a. In a theater.
- [68:07]
B
The irony being.
- [68:08]
A
Yeah, but.
- [68:09]
B
Yeah, I don't. I can't even imagine. I mean, I guess maybe that's why I didn't like Train Dreams on Thursday, third viewing. Because I. I watched it at home.
- [68:15]
A
Yeah.
- [68:15]
B
But I think they will. I think that they probably think they've got a shot in cinematography, which is. I don't think they're wrong. Yeah, they have the song. Right. The original song got nominated.
- [68:26]
A
The Cave, I think. Right.
- [68:28]
B
I mean, obviously we know what's going to win that it's the song from Viva Verde.
- [68:32]
A
But.
- [68:35]
B
Yeah, I. I think maybe they make a cinematography play.
- [68:37]
A
Yeah.
- [68:38]
B
Yeah. And then they say to Clint Bentley, like, we'll make your next movie, and. And, you know, we'll go from there.
- [68:43]
A
I mean, it is just funny. You're like, oh, you've got. You've just spent. Yeah. A billion dollars for a potential best cinematography award.
- [68:51]
B
Well, look, you know, that's how this. This thing this world works. That's. That's the train, baby. Get on or get off or just.
- [68:58]
A
Be a cog in. In this whole industry.
- [69:01]
B
Yeah. I feel bad that I was mean about train dreams. I. I don't. Again, you should not feel bad.
- [69:05]
A
I just really. Just come smite it from above.
- [69:08]
B
I just have this vision of it as this kind of guy I don't like, you know?
- [69:16]
A
Yeah. No, he didn't do anything particularly wrong.
- [69:18]
B
No. I just saw him on Instagram and I was like, I don't like you. That's it. Yeah.
- [69:32]
A
Critical Darlings is a blank check. Production in association with Vulture Hosted by Alison Wilmore and Richard Lawson Produced by Benjamin Frisch Executive produced by Griffin Newman and Neil Janowitz Video production and distribution by Ann Victoria Clark, Wolfgang Ruth and Jennifer Jahn.