Fargo with Zach Cregger

Summary

Blank Check with Griffin & David: "Fargo" with Zach Cregger

Original Air Date: August 17, 2025
Guest: Zach Cregger (Director of Barbarian and Weapons)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Blank Check delves deep into the Coen Brothers’ 1996 classic Fargo, with guest director Zach Cregger. The hosts—Griffin Newman and David Sims—alongside producer Ben Hosley and contributors, examine Fargo’s standing as a meticulously crafted black comedy, its peculiar editing choices, the Coens’ approach to character and tone, and the deeper philosophical questions the film buries under snowy Midwestern politeness. Cregger, a passionate Fargo devotee, discusses the film’s influence on his own work and participates in character dissections (particularly "Dark Marge") and scene analyses, with an ever-present undercurrent of humor and film-nerd camaraderie.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The "Fargo" Canon: Near-Perfection in Filmmaking

• Setting the Standard: The hosts and Zach agree that Fargo is among the very few movies with “not a hair out of place,” lifting even “shoe leather” moments into iconic territory through performance and editing.
• Quote: “This is a rare movie where you’re like, there’s not a hair out of place. Even just sort of shoe leather dialogue is so specifically honed in on character.” (Griffin, 01:48)

Dialogue & Quotability: Every Line Counts

• Iconic Lines: The episode recaps memorable moments (“Prowler needs a jump,” “Yeah, he’s fleeing the interview,” etc.) and the uncanny way even mundane lines become immortal through rhythm and performance.
• Specificity in Script: Stories are shared about the Coens’ fastidiousness—e.g., correcting “Where’s Pancakes House?” and Macy recounting that every stammer was scripted. (07:24)
• Quote: “Every stammer is written in that way. There’s no sort of riffing on the run up.” (Griffin, 07:57)

Editing Mysteries: Fades, Dissolves & Structure

• Obsessively Analyzing Edits: Both Griffin and Zach confess to poring over fade-to-black patterns, dissolves, and cross-cuts, playfully wrestling with the futility (“this is the kind of s*** they mock in essays”).
• The Mike Yanagita Scene: The lengthy, purposeful transition to Marge’s late-night call is dissected, raising questions about its place in the story and potential as a cuttable subplot. (03:33–05:18)
• Quote: “Is there any pattern as to when they fade to black as opposed to cross dissolve or just hard cut? …the kind of s*** they mock in essays about editing choices.” (Griffin, 05:28)

The Mike Yanagita Scene: Purpose & Theories

• Purpose Within Plot & Character: The infamous “Mike Yanagita scene” is explored as a philosophical pivot, showing Marge “containing a darkness within her” or at least a sharp worldliness.
• The “Dark Marge” reading is discussed—supposedly from a philosophy podcast—suggesting Marge’s decisions are more self-serving or self-aware than they first appear. (22:18–24:49)
• Quote: “They have a two episode thing just for Fargo and they get into why they consider Marge to be a dark character… which is interesting because she’s somewhat angelic in her presentation.” (Zach, 23:07)
• Counterpoints: The hosts weigh whether Marge genuinely “needs” the Yanagita meeting for an epiphany about human deception, concluding her cop instincts mean she always knows people lie, but the scene instead humanizes and deepens her.
• Production Backstory: McDormand requested a scene apart from “cop mode” or “wife mode” to round out Marge, leading to the inclusion of this now-classic encounter. (28:55)

Coens’ Tonal Balance & Directing Style

• “Tone Management” as Directing: The group highlights Ethan Coen’s definition: “Directing is about tone management.” Fargo is held up as the perfect mix of darkness and humor—grim crime filtered through Minnesota Nice.
• Quote: “Every scene is holding three tones that should not be able to coexist... the combination of Minnesota nice with deep darkness…” (Griffin, 33:14)

Crime, Incompetence & Moral Rot

• Mediocre Criminals: The ineptitude of Jerry, Carl, and Gaear is a recurring theme—“people who are mediocre, confident they know how to pull off something complicated (usually crime).”
• Jerry’s Internal Mess: The hosts speculate on Jerry’s backstory—gambling? A failed scam?—and how his desperate, escalating failures drive the plot.
• Quote: “I don’t think he’s innately a sociopath; it’s his insecurity and lack of confidence compared to masculinity in the world that’s curdled his brain.” (Griffin, 73:13)
• Everyone Hates Jerry: He’s the textbook Coen loser, despised by family and customers alike (“a rare example of a guy who everyone in the universe feels comfortable big-dogging,” David, 40:01).

Marge as Moral Center—But Not Naive

• Balance of Kindness and Realism: Though she projects warmth, Marge has seen plenty—her politeness doesn’t come at the cost of good police work.
• Dark Marge Revisited: The episode lands on the idea that Marge actively maintains belief in human decency in defiance of the darkness all around her, rather than out of naïveté.
• Quote: “Her optimism is intact... She is able to hold onto her soul, live around it like life in a cab.” (Griffin, 154:00)

The Visuals & Carter Burwell’s Score

• Deakins’s Understated Mastery: The use of real locations, fixed shots, and showing the environment as a character is celebrated. (62:03–63:36)
• Burwell’s Score: The episode repeatedly praises the haunting and tragic, yet never cloying, music. “It never winks at the comedy.” (34:27, 155:26)

Scene-by-Scene Highlights & Analysis

• Major Setpieces:
  • The kidnapping, shot for its clumsy, mundane horror
  • The cop murder and the “funny looking” descriptions of Buscemi
  • The repeated parking lot symbolism (trudging misery and small indignities)
  • Jerry’s cascade of lies and failures—practicing his ransom call (103:41), losing out on the parking lot deal, and fleeing the interview with Marge (139:25)
  • Gaear and Carl’s path of violence, culminating in the infamous wood chipper (“only Stormare knew how to work it,” 152:19)
  • Marge’s final, understated philosophical monologue

Actor & Production Stories

• Macy’s Audition Guts: Macy essentially stalked the Coens after their New York rounds, begging for the role: “Guys, this is my role. I want this.” (57:26)
• William H. Macy Origin of Pathetic: His performance almost doomed him as the original Marlin in Finding Nemo—“the audience hates this guy so much.” (76:31)
• Steve Park’s Legacy: His brilliant turn as Mike Yanagita paradoxically led to industry blackballing after speaking out on racism. He’s since been rediscovered and celebrated.
• Supporting Cast Naturalism: Local theater actors and a dialect coach make one-scene wonders “impossibly naturalistic.”
• Roger Deakins: Used a sparse approach, opting for “the best place for the camera to capture the actor’s performance” over showy technique. (62:03)

Larger Questions: Truth, Folktales, and Midwest Identity

• The Opening “True Story” Lie: The fraudulent title card primes the audience to accept all events, no matter how improbable (“locks the audience in a weird way,” 46:29–68:33).
• Tall Tales & Paul Bunyan: Fargo as a modern folk legend, riffing on both Midwestern myth and the peacetime malaise of the late ‘80s.
• Reagan-Era Context: Zach argues that setting the film in 1987 (the tail end of the financial boom) subtly informs its backdrop of individual ambition and collapse (64:47).

The Film’s Legacy

• Critical & Awards Run: Fargo won at Cannes (Best Director), swept critics’ awards, and scored two Oscars (Screenplay, Actress) from seven nominations (158:20–159:10).
• Influence: The combination of black comedy and criminal mediocrity became a cultural blueprint.
• No Country Comparison: Fargo and No Country for Old Men are identified as companion pieces in their mythic good vs. evil and their views on resisting darkness.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “This is a rare movie where you’re like, there’s not a hair out of place.” –Griffin (01:48)
• “Every line in this is a quotable line. Kind of like Big Lebowski has that.” –Zach (02:35)
• “Imagine having sex with someone. And they go I hear bells.” –David (07:45)
• “They’d say: ‘It just felt right.’ …And yet everything in their movies is so perfectly placed and so controlled…” –Griffin (06:03)
• “You want to describe Steve Buscemi? I’d go with the teeth first.” –David (82:44)
• “What trouble do you think Macy is in?... What have you done?” –David (37:41)
• “This movie is about the difference between being nice and being a good person.” –Griffin (40:48)
• “Dark Marge… One is that [Marge is] just as complicit in the deceit as Mike.” –Zach (23:37)
• “Directing is about tone management.” –Ethan Coen via Griffin (33:14)
• “Prowler needs a jump.” –David, an all-timer (01:14, 113:10)
• “He was always going to be face-down in a bed with two cops’ knees in his back in his boxers.” –Zach (90:45)
• “How do you split a car, you dummy?” –Zach (144:15)
• “Her optimism is intact… She is able to hold onto her soul, live around it like life in a cab.” –Griffin (154:00)

Timestamps of Key Sections:

• 01:48 – The “Perfect Movie” canon
• 03:33 – The Mike Yanagita scene & editing analysis
• 22:18 – Introduction of “Dark Marge” theory
• 33:14 – Coens’ tone management/directing style
• 37:41 – Jerry Lundegaard’s failings, motivations
• 62:03 – Roger Deakins’ cinematography philosophy
• 90:45 – Jerry’s inevitable downfall
• 113:10 – Marge’s introduction: “Prowler needs a jump”
• 139:25 – Jerry flees the interview, the unraveling
• 152:19 – Wood chipper scene, Stormare’s performance
• 154:00 – Marge’s optimism and the final coda

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Tone & Language

The conversation is a blend of sharp, encyclopedic film insight and loose comic riffing—a mix of “painstaking detail” and casual banter. The hosts stay playful (impersonations abound, as does ice-chewing from David), even when diving into arcane analysis, consistently channeling the Coens’ own balance of absurdity and everyday tragedy.

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For New Listeners

This episode is a definitive companion to Fargo, brimming with scene-by-scene breakdowns, big-picture themes (deceit, incompetence, kindness vs. goodness), and behind-the-scenes color. It’s an essential listen for both die-hard Coen fans and newcomers looking to understand why Fargo still stands as one of American cinema’s sharpest dark comedies—a “perfect” movie filled with imperfection.

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Next in Blank Check’s Coen Miniseries:
The Big Lebowski with (allegedly!) Seth Rogen.

Transcript

[Griffin Newman]

Blank check with Griffin and David. Blank check with Griffin and David. Don't know what to say or to expect.

[David Sims]

All you need to know is that the name of the shadow is Blackjack.

[Griffin Newman]

So that was Mrs. Lundegaard and the floor in there. And I guess that was your accomplice in the wood chipper and those three people in Brainerd. And for what? For a little bit of podcasting. There's more to life than a little podcast, you know, I feel like I went a little too. Dennis Farina.

[David Sims]

Uh, sure. Yeah. Well, yeah. You were about to soul Chicago, order a deep dish.

[Griffin Newman]

I was gonna dip my beef sandwich.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Yeah. Too many lines I can think of. I am at the point with this movie, and our guest can speak up if he agrees. Please just start talking.

[Griffin Newman]

You to give him permission to talk.

[David Sims]

Where there's lines where I'm like, iconic line from Fargo that I think are just normal expository lines. But, like, I've watched the movie so many times at this point that, like, prowler needs a jump is one of my favorite lines from Fargo.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I'm not going to.

[David Sims]

That make sense.

[Griffin Newman]

Absolutely. I'm not going to say we need to, like, fully.

[David Sims]

Yeah, Prowler needs a jump. I just, like, that's funny to me. I mean, and it's supposed to be funny, but, like, to me, that's like fucking. You know, Dalton Trumbo wrote that.

[Griffin Newman]

So to this point, well, let's check to see if the keys on the typewriter are wet or not. Let's not accuse Dalton Trumbo. He's been accused of a lot of things in his time. I'm not looking to build the canon here. We've covered a lot of great movies on the show. Ten years, A decade of dreams.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

I do think there is a pretty limited canon of, like, perfect movies in the history of cinema, but especially within the limited range of what we've covered in the last 10 years. And a lot of that is, like. A lot of movies that I think are masterpieces have, like, woolliness or weirdness that I love. That works for me, you know? But this, like, part there is. This is a rare movie where you're like, there's not a hair out of place. And to that end, even, like, just sort of shoe leather dialogue is so specifically honed in on character and then so nailed in performance that then the rhythm of it feels like, well, that's like an iconic thing. The fourth time she says, yeah, he's fleeing the interview.

[David Sims]

Yeah, he's fleeing the interview. Yeah, it's true.

[Zach Kreger]

Every line in this is a quotable line. Kind of like Big Lebowski has that, where, like, you could pick any line. You throw a dart at the board, and it's. And you kind of. You can hear it if you read it. You know, it's, like, tattooed in the mind. And this movie does that. You know, I was watching it again last night, and I was thinking about how perfect this movie was. And I was looking. I was like, is there a hair on the head of this movie that I would change? And I have one. I have one moment, and I don't even think it's wrong. It's not broken. It's great. But it's a weird. There's a weird moment in this movie that I locked in on this time, and I've seen this movie a thousand times, and it's more of just a question. And I wonder if you guys have the same issue. May I? Is this okay?

[David Sims]

No, no. I love it. Please. I was trying to think of you being like, I just don't like that lady who played the cop.

[Zach Kreger]

She.

[David Sims]

I just thought she was kind of.

[Griffin Newman]

Off, kind of bad performance, too much.

[David Sims]

What's with all their accents?

[Zach Kreger]

No, but there's a moment where we. We dissolve from. From Steve Buscemi's pounding on the tv. He's like, yes.

[David Sims]

And then we go to the hard cut.

[Zach Kreger]

We dissolve to the. To the screen. We have the bugs on the screen, and we pull out, and we realize that Marge and her husband are watching TV at night. And, you know, she says, time to turn in. And he kind of wakes up, and then we do a dissolve to black. And then we fade up, and the phone rings, and it's Mike Yanaguita. And I was just wondering. I was like, why. Why do we go from a scene with them in bed to a scene with them in bed with this dissolve in the middle? And she answers. And I was like, I wonder if they were hedging their bets that maybe they would cut the Mikey Oniguita out. Like, maybe they were nervous that, like, this storyline may not work. It's a risk. So we're gonna. We got this sexy transition that we love. Like. Cause they could easily cut straight to the mic and get a phone call. They didn't have to do that. Cool tv.

[David Sims]

This is what happens when you. You've been shipping for 100 viewings, where you start to just be like, is there? Right. Like, you know, you've gone so deep. I know what you're saying.

[Griffin Newman]

We're also going to spend 40 minutes on Mike Yanagida.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, we are one hour.

[Zach Kreger]

We have to go deep into Mike Yagita.

[Griffin Newman]

We have to go deep.

[David Sims]

I just saw him. Steve Park. Right. The actor's name in the Phoenician scheme. Literally two hours ago, it feels like.

[Griffin Newman]

Is having a bit of a renaissance because we've been so reclaimed by Wes. We'll talk about it for an hour. I'm going to pin that to the board.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

But that scene in and of itself is a thing that I feel like for a long time people were like, why is this fucking in here?

[David Sims]

What is the janiguita scene?

[Zach Kreger]

Turning Point. Marge's character.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

It's obviously a vital scene.

[Griffin Newman]

It is the scene in the movie. But I was. I watched it last night and then almost immediately after finishing it, I was like, am I going to fucking put this back on and watch this again? Because I had the impulse to watch it or at least scrub through and study. When do they do the fade to black? They do it.

[Zach Kreger]

Are you joking? You had that same thought about that exact same fade to black and white?

[Griffin Newman]

Not that one. But I got kind of stuck on. Not in a. Like a. In a. It was bumping on they do but one.

[David Sims]

Right at the start of the movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. I was like, okay, they're like five or six of them.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And is there any pattern I can discern as to when they fade to black as opposed to like cross dissolve or just hard cut? And then I was like, this is the kind of shit that they mock when people try to write essays about, like, why they made the editing choices.

[Zach Kreger]

But they still care about it. They do. So precise and intentional.

[Griffin Newman]

Absolutely.

[Zach Kreger]

It's worth exploring this and wringing your hands about this sort of things because they're that meticulous.

[Griffin Newman]

This is the fascinating thing about them is I'm sure if you ask them, they would say. It just felt right.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

We just got in the room and it just felt like a random energy.

[David Sims]

How they talk about things.

[Griffin Newman]

And yet everything in their movies is so perfectly placed and so precise and so controlled, as you said. Well. And feels so meaningful that you're like, there has to be something for me to solve here.

[Ben Hosley]

Right? Yeah.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I guess. Right. You get to. Will eventually get to serious, man, where the movie is almost around. Right.

[David Sims]

Them Mike telling you to accept the mystery.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Same actor.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Fargo is the film. But what's the podcast?

[Griffin Newman]

This is blank. Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

[David Sims]

David.

[Ben Hosley]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

Who's David? You're just saying.

[David Sims]

You betcha. I'm David. I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a podcast about filmography. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby.

[David Sims]

So when the sex worker is riding the second the escort, the second one is riding Carl.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Trying to get him to ring the bell.

[David Sims]

I hear bells. I'm like, did the Cohen's write that? It is such an odd line. I love it to be clear. Or did she go like, you know what? You know, like, like were they like what would you.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, like it has to be right.

[David Sims]

I think they write everything and I'm sure. Yeah. I don't think it's there.

[Zach Kreger]

There's that story that, that here's. Oh my God.

[Griffin Newman]

Storm.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah, right.

[Zach Kreger]

Jesus Christ. That would have been bad. He tells that story about. He's shooting that scene and he. And he thought there was a typo in the script for the where is Pancake? Changed it on take one. He goes where's the pancake House? And like Joel came up and was like hey, it says where's Pancakes House? Yeah, like that's. They are that specific.

[Griffin Newman]

And to that point I'm just like.

[David Sims]

Imagine having sex with someone. And they go I hear bells. Sorry, go on.

[Zach Kreger]

Or worse than that is where are you?

[David Sims]

Where are you?

[Zach Kreger]

So emasculating.

[David Sims]

Where are you?

[Zach Kreger]

Jesus.

[Griffin Newman]

William H. Macy has said that like every single stammer is written in that way. Like there's no sort of like riffing on the run up.

[David Sims]

There was something he improv that they let in. And I cannot remember what it is. I'll find it.

[Griffin Newman]

But yes, I hear bells. Feels like that has to be something they heard happen to someone they knew that they never forgot and joked about internally. And we're going like we're going to put that in a movie someday.

[David Sims]

Right, right, right, right.

[Zach Kreger]

It don't seem like the guys who like hang out with their buddies and talk about like sex stories.

[David Sims]

No, no, no. It.

[Griffin Newman]

You know what it feels like? It feels like they overheard a stranger say that at a bar.

[David Sims]

One of the few instances talking to.

[Griffin Newman]

His buddies is that they.

[David Sims]

He kept calling the sienna burnt umber. Which was not in the script. But the Cohen were amused and let that in because Macy's a. He's like a theater rascal. He likes to, you know, ad lib.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

He also did the doodles. Him. He was just doodling. I know that. And they Were like, oh, that's funny.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? That was him in between setups, just making those sort of like weird geometric patterns.

[Zach Kreger]

That's awesome.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, Listen. Massive success early on the career series of playing chess. Crazy passion projects. This is their first clear. This is their first unqualified.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, this movie was a hit. This is their first movie that didn't lose money. They are a rare case of a snap raising Arizona.

[David Sims]

Lost money? I. I don't think so.

[Ben Hosley]

Let's.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's look it up.

[David Sims]

No.

[Zach Kreger]

Blood simple couldn't have lost money.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[David Sims]

Racing Arizona cost $5 million and made like 30 worldwide. Okay. I think that movie is their first clue.

[Griffin Newman]

Fair enough.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But like, right, Barton Fink, Miller's Crossing, Hudsucker, all made less than they cost. But two of those three were like critically adored.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And it was like, these guys have the goods. We have to keep letting them do their thing. And this obviously breaks through on a whole other level. Of course. This is their 1996 film Fargo, which is based on the popular FX series. They made an interesting choice at this point in their career to adapt a TV show to film.

[David Sims]

Yes, of course. They. They love the TV show.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm told they love it.

[David Sims]

I'm sure they have never seen.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm also sure.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And I'm not even saying that in a derogatory way. I'm just sure they're kind of like, oh, okay, right.

[Griffin Newman]

When the show was announced, there was this sort of like. And the Cohen's gave it their blessing and then later came out that they were like, yeah, we don't care. If you want to do a show, that's fine.

[David Sims]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

Not that they were dismissive, but they were just like, we made the movie. You do whatever you want. Because there's also the weird fucking sitcom pilot.

[David Sims]

Was that a sitcom? Edie Falco.

[Griffin Newman]

I guess it was.

[David Sims]

No, it was like a crime show, comedy, procedural.

[Griffin Newman]

There was like an NBC pilot directed by Kathy Bates with Edie Falco playing Marge Gunderson.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

Really?

[Griffin Newman]

In the 90s, like a year or two after Fargo.

[David Sims]

No, no, no.

[Griffin Newman]

Well.

[David Sims]

Oh, yeah, it was in the 90s, right. It actually aired in the 2000s as part of like a brilliantly canceled.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Zach Kreger]

And wait, Kathy Bates was in this?

[David Sims]

So I think Kathy Bates, she directed it.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

Thank you, Zach.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank bringing that up.

[David Sims]

And we should introduce.

[Griffin Newman]

This is additional ammunition to the idea that there's some quiet feud between. Kathy Bates didn't do the dishes. She directed the pilot that they had no involvement in. It almost feels Vindictive. That she's like, I'll make my Fargo. You guys don't have the rights.

[David Sims]

Yeah, that's. That's. That's. I've never seen it. The. The Edie Falco thing. Have you ever seen it?

[Griffin Newman]

I've not seen it either.

[David Sims]

She's pregnant in it. I know. Which is sort of funny.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Like, she's pregnant again. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Was she going to be pregnant for five seasons?

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

We're talking Fargo. Our guest today is the great filmmaker, the director of Barbarian.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

The upcoming Weapons, which will be coming out right around the time this episode.

[David Sims]

Well, so this episode drops, Zach, on. Let's see, August 17th. Those weapons just come out.

[Zach Kreger]

It will be out for a week and change.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow.

[David Sims]

You know what? We did a pretty good job mining weapons.

[Griffin Newman]

Zach Kreger.

[Zach Kreger]

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

[David Sims]

Sorry for yelling. Weapons.

[Zach Kreger]

I love this show. So I'm really excited.

[Griffin Newman]

It's very kind of you to say.

[David Sims]

That's really sick. It's trusting. I mean, that's the kind of depraved shit that the director of Weapons would say. I love blank check.

[Griffin Newman]

We. We met last summer and you said that to me, and I said, that's stupid. And your response was, why do you think that's stupid? I appreciated you, like, being like. You have a show that people like. I don't understand why you're immediately turning this into an insult to me and a self put down. You, like, cut through it very quickly. But it has been a dream to have you on since then. We have a mutual friend, Leslie Headland.

[David Sims]

Yes, we do.

[Griffin Newman]

I said we're doing the Coens. I feel like this might be a moment to ask. Zack texted you, and you and Leslie both lucked into the same two movies.

[David Sims]

Right. Started fighting over him, essentially. Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

I wanted Fargo because this is quite. Arguably my favorite movie of all time, and I think she might feel similarly. And you guys had offered me no country, which is also. What an amazing. I mean, it's an honor, you know, whatever. But I don't know, I just.

[Griffin Newman]

I love.

[Zach Kreger]

I. I wanted Fargo really bad. I didn't know if. If she cared as much as I cared. And so we. We had kind of a. A little round and round about who got what. But she was very cool to give me.

[David Sims]

To give me this look.

[Griffin Newman]

It's also. It's a win. Win. It's like two masterpieces.

[Zach Kreger]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I could see both of you being good on both episodes.

[Zach Kreger]

It's funny that Leslie was like, I feel like, you should just take the classier movie. And I was like, which one is classier, Lindsay? They're both very classy, I think.

[David Sims]

In that it. Well, it won Best Picture. It's an adaptation of a sort of a novel from a great American novelist. So it's like maybe mildly quote unquote, classier. This movie has a lot of Minnesota accents in it and stuff. Like, it's like a little goofier. You had just worked with Josh Brolin, of course, in weapons, so you were sort of like, well, that would be interesting to talk about, but he's not in Fargo.

[Zach Kreger]

Is that right? He's not.

[David Sims]

I don't think so. I mean, maybe he played the big statue of Paul Bunyan. I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

There's a bit of a resemblance.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but. But you have worked with Mr. Brolin, who, of course, is a Cohen's fave.

[Griffin Newman]

But is this kind of your, like, default gun to your head, favorite movie?

[Zach Kreger]

It would be like a coin toss between this and Boogie Nights.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[Zach Kreger]

A year apart. So it just goes to show, you know, 16, 17, when these movies came out, it's like my formative, you know, film buff years or whatever, I'm trying to say. So, yeah, these were. These both hit me in the sweet spot and made it, made a mark.

[Griffin Newman]

Barbarian, it's a phenomenal movie. Kind of blew me away when I saw it in theaters, and it felt like had this mini phenomenon of people being like, where the fuck did this come from? Like, it felt like the movie just came out of nowhere.

[David Sims]

Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

And I. I really enjoyed the party trick of telling people when they were like, have you seen Barbarian? That thing rules. Responding with, like, you know, that was directed by one of the whitest kids, you know, which people could not believe. But you have this arc of. Right, but. But. No but, like, in a cool way. And I also think there's this weird cultural thing of, like, a sketch comedy to a horror movie pipeline that seems to be growing. But you also go to.

[Zach Kreger]

That's two examples. Is there more?

[David Sims]

I guess you got two examples.

[Zach Kreger]

Mooney.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I'd say.

[Zach Kreger]

I'd say made a horror movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, so now. Now we're looking at four.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Why not? Actually, yeah. Showalter should try a horror movie. I'm trying to think about, like, who are big sketch legends now who have transitioned to filmmaker.

[Griffin Newman]

Chevy Chase should direct a horror movie now.

[David Sims]

Great sketch comic. Chevy Chase. I know he was. I know he was once a great sketch comic, but you.

[Griffin Newman]

All. That group formed from all of you guys going to film school together, right?

[Zach Kreger]

Well, we were in the same dorm together, so we went to different schools, but we all were in the same spillover dorm in Brooklyn that like, if you were late on your housing application, you lived in the St. George Hotel. So it just kind of attracted.

[David Sims]

You lived at the St. George Hotel?

[Zach Kreger]

I lived in the same Clark street station. You got it.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, incredibly familiar.

[David Sims]

That is so funny. What. How do I know? I'm a dork.

[Griffin Newman]

I went to high school right by.

[Ben Hosley]

What's.

[David Sims]

What's it like at the St. George Hotel? I always wonder.

[Zach Kreger]

Well, it was different then. They've completely redone it now. But it was so bizarre because it was just like Animal House every night. But it used to be housing and there were tenants that just never were evicted. So we'd be like drinking 40s and smoking blunts in the hallway. And then a 90 year old would get off the elevator and walk sadly through the pots smoke into his room. I mean, can you imagine? And they're like, we're turning this into a dormitory. It's just like, I can't imagine.

[David Sims]

And the guy's like, I don't give a. I pay 60 bucks a month. I'm never leaving. I live in Brooklyn Heights.

[Griffin Newman]

I went to, I went to high school right by there. And I was always like fascinated by the exterior and how much it kind of looked like a Barton Fink hotel. Like it looked frozen in time. And I remember with my friend walking by and going like, I. I need to know, is this like an expensive hotel? And I wanted to.

[Zach Kreger]

Marilyn Monroe stayed there.

[David Sims]

It was once expensive.

[Zach Kreger]

They shot the Godfather in the basement and then they shot big in there. That scene where he's like in the hood and there's like gunshots and sirens and he's afraid, you know?

[Griffin Newman]

That's wild.

[Zach Kreger]

Yeah, that's in the St. George, right?

[Griffin Newman]

I was like, this clearly looks like it used to be really fancy, but also looks so frozen in amber. I wonder how much it costs. So I walked in and was like, how much is a room as like a 14 year old? And whoever's at the desk was like, this is for college students, right?

[David Sims]

Go away.

[Griffin Newman]

And then I was so fascinated by like, this has the outward appearance of a hotel, but also like rent controlled senior citizens live there.

[Zach Kreger]

Yeah, it has a crazy history, that place. It was, I heard it was in a quarantine zone for AIDS patients. And so a lot of people died in there like in the, in the 80s. And I know there was like, it was A junkie. Like a flop house shooting gallery at one point. And you used to walk by and there would be all these, like, bags on strings hanging out every window, which is where people would hide their heroin. Like, out. It would. It's had a crazy. And, you know, in the glory days, it burned down and.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Built.

[Zach Kreger]

It's. This cannot be interesting to any of your.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no. This is kind of fun. This is really good.

[David Sims]

Kind of cool lore, but you did not see Fargo in college. You saw it prior. You saw it in.

[Zach Kreger]

Yeah, yeah, I saw it in high school.

[David Sims]

Did you see it in theaters? You're older.

[Zach Kreger]

I did not see it in theaters. I don't believe I did. I don't think I did. I think I saw it on video, unfortunately.

[David Sims]

Yeah, Well, I mean, like, I would have been. I was. I. When Fargo came out. I think you're a couple years older than me. Like, it was a little too young to be toddling over to Fargo in the theaters. This was amazing.

[Zach Kreger]

I was 16 when it came out.

[David Sims]

Yeah. You could have snuck in. I could have snuck in, I guess.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

This was an early DVD for me. Like, I bought this on DVD and rewatched it over and over and over again.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I feel like I had gotten so Cohen's pilled by the early 2000s that I remember watching this, seeing that it was going to play on cable, and being like, oh, this is my big blind spot. Already knowing in a pre no country era that this was kind of considered their masterpiece.

[David Sims]

Yes. I also, you know the Hallowell's Film Guide, which I think I brought up before, which is a gigantic textbook that doesn't exist anymore, but used to get published every year of every movie. And with ratings from zero to four stars. Most movies get zero.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

By a grumpy old fuck called Leslie Halloway. Halliwell. He gave Fargo four stars.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And like, that. He gave, like, 14 stars a year or whatever. So I knew that Fargo was a big deal even when I was.

[Griffin Newman]

This was an infamous Siskel and Ebert movie, too. That it was, like, a thing they both agreed on and were not only in agreement, but were, like, advocating so hard and were rapturous about it. And there's the story. I think maybe JJ put in the dossier of the two of them seeing the screening together, and Ebert turning to Siskel and going like, this is why we do what we do. And Ebert, like, in his initial review, I think, called it, where he was like, this is one of the few perfect movies I've ever seen. And he, like, elevated it to his great movies list really early, but he just immediately was just like this. I have rarely seen a film that so successfully achieves its ambitions.

[Zach Kreger]

I think it's really odd, though, that he didn't pick on that. That fade to black off of the tv.

[Griffin Newman]

It's kind of a hack.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Keep your head on a swivel, though. I mean, Jesus. Films like Fargo or why I love the movies is how his review ends.

[Griffin Newman]

The thing I was gonna say that's kind of funny is the first time I watched it when I'm, like, 14 or 15. I remember not being underwhelmed by it, but going like, yeah, that's like another Coen Brothers movie.

[David Sims]

Wow, that's fucked up.

[Griffin Newman]

It's so fucked up. And then I basically have watched it once every two years since then, and every time I see it, it gets better. It is one of those rare movies for me that. Because I haven't yet clocked the weirdness of that one fade to black. Every time, I'm like, I get it more and more. And there's something just. I think what threw me off when I was seeing it the first time and had been so hyped up in my mind is it is kind of very simple. It is such a, like, focused movie, in a way, and I'm always surprised by how short it is.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean, all their movies are short. I mean, by and large, it is. It's an economical film. It gets through a ton of plot. It's a plotty movie.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

In 98 minutes. Like, it's.

[Griffin Newman]

And Marge is not introduced until minute 30 and solves the case by an hour and 20 minutes.

[Zach Kreger]

And it never feels rushed. It feels like kind of. It moved at a lazy pace. And I mean that in the best way. You know, like, they're.

[David Sims]

They're.

[Zach Kreger]

They're hanging out in bed talking about stamps, you know, and you. You never. You never feel it. It's.

[David Sims]

It's.

[Zach Kreger]

It's amazing.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So Fargo is good.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And Zach's here to talk about it. It is. This is one of those movies. I'm. I'm serious. It's like one of those movies where I'm like, yeah, I don't know. We're not going to be like, fargo is my favorite. Fargo is actually bad. Like.

[Zach Kreger]

No, but there is so much to debate about it, though.

[David Sims]

Like, Dark Marge.

[Zach Kreger]

Are we going to get into the Dark Marge?

[David Sims]

Zach, I don't know what you're talking about, but I want.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's Unpack what you're talking about.

[Zach Kreger]

Yeah, I don't really know it either. Okay. So do you guys. Are you familiar there's a podcast called no Podcast for Old Men? Do you know about this?

[David Sims]

No, but sounds like the kind of thing that exists in the world.

[Zach Kreger]

I'm surprised you don't. It's three philosophy professors.

[David Sims]

Oh, you know what I have? Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

They go through the Coen brothers filmography and each episode is two hours long and they only talk about them from a philosophical standpoint and the greater themes of every movie. It's pretty fascinating. And they talk. They have a two episode thing just for Fargo and they get into. Into why they considered Marge to be a dark character. And I think even Ethan acknowledged in an interview that he thinks of Marge as a dark character, which is really interesting because she's.

[David Sims]

She's somewhat angelic in her sort of presentation and her behavior. So why is she dark? I must know more. I'm gonna find out if there's more on this.

[Griffin Newman]

But that she is like, containing. That she is controlling a darkness within her.

[Zach Kreger]

Well, I don't know. I mean, I think that there's. There's a couple of. There's a couple of approaches you could take to the dark Marge theory. One is that she is, you know, if. If you look at this movie through the lens of deception.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[Zach Kreger]

And that applies on a lot of different layers. You know, the opening text, which I'm sure we're going to get into, is a lie, you know.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Zach Kreger]

And. And every character is kind of a liar. And Marge is not immune to that. You know her. Now, I don't. This is not my point of view. Okay. But this is just me putting the dark March theory out there. Is that the Mike Yaniguita thing, She's just as complicit in the deceit as Mike. Like that.

[David Sims]

She kind of knows. It's maybe a little out of pocket to get lunch with Mike Yanniguita. Like you think like that. She's no wide eyed innocent. She's like, oh, she probably knows, like, oh, Mike had a bit of a crush on me or whatever. Yeah, yeah, sure.

[Zach Kreger]

And you could even, you know, Mike tells her on the phone he's in the Twin Cities.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

And then when that other cop comes, and I noticed it on this watch, that other cop says, you know, they made a call to a Shep Proudfoot in the Twin Cities. And she's like, well, maybe I'll take a drive down there. And everybody is kind of surprised you're gonna Drive all the way to the Twin Cities on the thinnest. On a phone call. And she's like, yeah. And it's like, we. We can infer that she's going because she wants to see Mike Yanagida.

[David Sims]

We can infer that. I'm not sure I do infer that to be.

[Zach Kreger]

We could, we could. And then she's also, you know, she's. She's wearing a lot of makeup. She's going to a nice restaurant. She wants you to wear makeup because you want to look nice.

[David Sims]

She does want it to be reasonable, though. She wants the Marriott to be, hey, is it reasonable?

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

But it does feel like, right, there's something self serving going on there. Even if it's only. I want the confidence boost.

[David Sims]

The whole thing with Fargo is the Mike Yanagita scene.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Because like, the thing with Fargo is that it's perfect. And the first time you watch it, you're blown away by, you know, how dark it is and how funny it is the entire time, even though, like, horrible things are happening and all that, you know, and then just how visually striking it is. And so then you keep rewatching it, and then you keep. As you keep rewatching it being like, Mike Yanagida scene's weird. And then you realize, like, well, no, I see its plot purpose. It helps her realize, like, that she was lied to. It helps her, you know, sort of like shades, like, you know, the deception. And then you keep watching and then you're like, okay, but like, she's a cop. Wouldn't she know? You know, then you start, like, asking, you know, it becomes. It is so interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

It's really simple to read that. Seen as the Mike Yanagita exchange makes her realize for the first time that people could be lying.

[David Sims]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

Where you're like, no, she's a cop. Of course she knows that.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I know.

[Zach Kreger]

Of course she knows that because she is such a good cop. She's unfazed by these three dead bodies. She finds she has no problem getting on her hands and knees and examining the wounds. From a completely professional, clinical mindset. She's clearly done this a bunch of times.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

And. And so it's odd that they would put so much shoe leather in to be like, this is the moment she realizes that people can be bad.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[Zach Kreger]

People can lie. And it's like, what a wild thing to put into a hardened, seasoned gum shoe. You know, it's crazy, but it works.

[Griffin Newman]

So here I was, I was going down some rabbit holes and theories. I didn't Find the Dark Marge Theory. Also, I feel embarrassed that there's a podcast called no Podcast for Old Men and our miniseries is no Pod country for Old Casts. Whatever. Who gives a fuck? Me. Thank you.

[David Sims]

Sorry, I did the ice thing.

[Griffin Newman]

You're doing the ice thing. Ben, it might be time to take away the cup.

[David Sims]

No, I love my ice.

[Griffin Newman]

David loves chewing ice. No, if you're gonna do it, I have to say it.

[Ben Hosley]

Sorry.

[David Sims]

Sorry. I'm trying not to bite my nails. No, no. What was the theory?

[Griffin Newman]

It almost feels like a thing a character would do in a Coen Brothers movie during a dramatic scene is keep chewing ice and have Skip leave, say, just crank the audio.

[David Sims]

Skip, leave, say hit that ice hard.

[Griffin Newman]

The King I was going down different Marge and Mike Yanagida readings and one reading I saw that was interesting was they were saying it's basically the inversion of the scene you have in most noirs where a male hard boiled detective who is hyper cynical on the outside, meets with a random woman, gets engaged in like a romantic liaison with her and in the process uncovers something about the crime that shows how good he is at sussing out information. Right? And this is like a complete flip of that where it's like a, a non sexual encounter, right? This encounter of like weird deep awkwardness and emotion in history where nothing physical happens, that's all about longing and like unrequited love. But also perhaps this like, desire to be seen as desirable and that it gives her this lesson that is not directly related to the crime she's trying to solve is more just a philosophical reawakening of like, right, I should take a second look at this and not trust what people are saying, which, like, it is that simple. But also that's not giving the character enough credit. And then the thing I read, which I think I'd never heard before, is that scene was not originally in the script, Obviously, because Francis McDormand is married to Joel Cohen and is more involved in the development of these movies and is probably hearing about them as they're going along and knew that they were designing this character for her. Said at some point, I don't know if it was reading a finished script for the first time or if she was reading scenes as it went along. Said, can you please give me a scene that can help me define my character that isn't me on the case or with my husband?

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

She said, there are only two modes I have in this movie. It is either me in cop mode or me in wife mode. And I need you to give me one scene of additional context to show me relating to someone else, to help me solve what this character is. And that was the scene they wrote. And then she said. When I read it, I was perplexed. I didn't get it. I didn't get why this is what they wrote. And I couldn't make sense of the behavior in the scene. And her biggest thing was. And not that it was written differently, but I want to avoid the temptation of letting this character be too saintly by being too considerate of his emotions in this scene. That the firmness she shows in kind of putting down the lines of going, like, I'd feel more comfortable if you were sitting on the other side. But even just the energy as she's receiving everything he's saying. She was like, I can't just be like Mama Earth.

[David Sims]

Which makes. I get that.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah. I don't know. That's interesting. It does. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Zach, what do you think? Do you think Marge is dark? Dark Marge. Is she gonna join the Dark Avengers?

[Zach Kreger]

I don't think she's dark. I think I can't really embrace the Dark March theory. And I don't know if I've articulated it correctly at all. Like, I think there might be a more. A more kind of complex thing behind Dark Marge that I'm completely missing here. But what I love about the Mike Yanaguida scene, it's kind of what you just hinted on is that she is writing this really delicate line of like, am I in cop mode? Am I in person mode? You know, he is making this inappropriate adv, and I'm gonna keep my Minnesota nice kind of demeanor here, but I'm also gonna be firm and keep my. It was. There's just so many things happening with her in that scene, and it's so funny. It's just. That scene is a masterpiece because there's so many. There's so many layers happening. It works on so many levels. And it's so fucking funny. Mike Anaguida is.

[Griffin Newman]

It's an incredible character.

[Zach Kreger]

It's so funny.

[David Sims]

Everything I've read about. There's a big interview with Steve park that you can read. There's an Entertainment Weekly or something where he was like. I was convinced the scene would get cut because it has nothing do, ostensibly with the movie. And then Ethan Cohen called him and was like, your scene, like, crushes. You know, everyone laughs. And Sea park was like. Well, I was playing him as, like, this incredibly tragic person.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

But like, it is a very funny, like, cringy, uncomfortable. Like, I do think it's in this dark. Very funny, but nonetheless dark movie. It is an interesting little breathing point.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And that's probably another reason they were like, yeah, it's. It functions. Like, don't take it out. Like, keep the Yanagita scene.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know if this is their best movie. It is certainly in that top tier for me. They have made a handful of five star masterpieces in my mind. But this does feel like the ultimate Cohen's film. In the same way we were saying in our Blue Velvet episode, like, that's not my favorite lynch movie, but it is the movie that is the best encapsulation at the right point in the bell curve of the development of power, where you're just like, this is every single thing they do well, every theme they find interesting. The holding of, like, all the tones at the same time. There's some interview I'm totally agree, obsessed with where Ethan Cohen, you know, whenever people ask them, like, what's your directing style? Or how do you work with actors? And there's some interview I gotta find where Ethan Cohen says, like, I've never consciously directed an actor in my life. We, like, don't talk subtext with them. We write the script. If we give them notes, they're technical about just, like, what we need to do to get the take to work or whatever. And he said, over time and being asked that question so many times, the best answer I've ever come to is that directing is about tone management. And I think about that so much. And this movie is like the greatest study in that where you're like, every scene is holding three tones that should not be able to coexist. And they've made great films where the power is that they're able to successfully navigate the transitions in tone from scene to scene. But the combination of putting the Minnesota nice with the sort of deep darkness of man noir means that they're doing that tonal balance of just what we're talking about. The Mike Yamagita scene where you're just like, how can it be these things simultaneously? How can it be this funny and upsetting and confusing and clarifying?

[David Sims]

I mean, not to toot Zack's horn, but you made a scary movie that was funny, but not funny in a whatever, you know, like, not a parody scare. Like, you made a movie where I was laughing the entire time. I don't know if you're going for me laughing almost the entire time with Barbarian but, like, it is a movie with a lot of humor in it without sacrificing any of the darkness.

[Griffin Newman]

And I think the humor similarly stems from really drilling into like the bizarreness of human behavior.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So how'd you do that? Big jerk.

[Zach Kreger]

What are the things that kind of crystallizes what the Cohens are doing? And far. Thank you for that compliment. I'll say. Thank you. Thank you is, you know the Paul Bunyan shot where it's like under lit and Paul Bunyan, the big statue looks like demonic, you know, and it's that. That one shot is kind of like the perfect. The perfect encapsulation of everything they're doing in this movie where it's like this.

[David Sims]

It.

[Zach Kreger]

First of all, it's crystallizing the location. You know, all of their movies are so location dependent. It's kind of amazing. And this. This one is almost the most. And then it's this. It's this big kind of joyful thing and they light it and shoot it. Like the scariest fucking thing you've ever seen.

[Griffin Newman]

The fucking Carter Burwell score.

[Zach Kreger]

The Carter Burwell score is maybe his best score.

[David Sims]

Dude. Just.

[Zach Kreger]

It's so, so amazing.

[Griffin Newman]

But, like, even when Carter Burwell does comedies or has like branched out bagpipes on that thing, I just think he. There is always something ominous underneath any piece of music he has ever written.

[David Sims]

He does have a bit of a. Yeah, sure. Like a gothic kind of like. He's the best Carter. Well, such a sweetie pie too.

[Zach Kreger]

And this movie with all of the zaniness that's definitely in here. His score never really acknowledges any of it. I mean, the closest the score gets to anything playful is when they're breaking into the house, you know, and he's shattering the back door.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

And she's running into the bathroom. And it's like that. It's just that plucky doom.

[Griffin Newman]

Doom.

[Zach Kreger]

That's like the build up that's the happiest we get.

[David Sims]

You know, I mean, that. That scene, the break in, the kidnapping of her is perfect encapsulation where, like, that seems very scary.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And very, very upsetting and funny the entire time.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And I know it is the most trite observation in the world to say that Pargo is a black comedy. And nonetheless, I keep saying it, but it is the perfect black comet. And I do think in. It was so transgressive, this movie. People were just like, I can't believe how funny it is. Given that, like, people get murdered and families are sad.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

There's something about that scene that. That has to be talked about.

[Griffin Newman]

And by the way, are we ever.

[Zach Kreger]

Gonna, like, start at the beginning, go to the end, or do we just.

[David Sims]

No, I'm gonna open the dossier. And I'm sorry. We're jumping. It's just so exciting to talk.

[Zach Kreger]

I could wait till we get to that scene.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no.

[Zach Kreger]

Say about. About how inept these guys are. First off, Chef Proudfoot vouches for Gare, not Showalter. Right. So he. He likes Peter Stormer. He does. He does not know Showalter, which is really funny.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Incredibly funny. To imagine Shep and Gare hanging out.

[Zach Kreger]

I could see it.

[Griffin Newman]

Not talking time together and, like, grunted at each other.

[David Sims]

Right. In jail.

[Zach Kreger]

And we're like, you're all right, but. But it's just so amazing how terrible these guys are at crime. Especially, like, I. Every time I watch this movie, it blows my mind that Steve Buscemi knew they were gonna, like, take this car, abduct a woman, put her in the backseat, and drive out of town. And he didn't have the forethought of, like, putting the tags on the car that he had. It's like, oh, I forgot to change the tags. It's just the tags when they get pulled over, you know, I. It's like, that's the first thing you should have done. You know, they're terrible at crime. And then he wants to bribe the cop when he could have just shown him the tags. Okay, so all of that is. Is just lunacy.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

But then the front door's open and puts a ski mask on. He walks up the back porch, and you can look out that door and see, like, seven other houses.

[David Sims]

A million other houses. Yes. They're not in the middle of nowhere.

[Zach Kreger]

Of what he's doing. And then he smashes this giant plate glass thing with a crowbar. It's got to be louder than a gunshot. It's just so. Such. Such a lack of thought. It's wild. And I. I love it, but it's just crazy how much these guys suck at what they're here to do.

[Griffin Newman]

It does feel like it is their single favorite thing to explore in movies is people who are mediocre, criminal, confident that they know how to pull. That is incredibly complicated. And it's usually crime.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's also just, like, anytime someone's like, I think I can figure this out.

[David Sims]

What trouble do you think Macy is in? Is he just underwater already in some other real estate speculation or whatever? Like, why does he. Are he needs so much money.

[Zach Kreger]

And I love that. They don't, they don't, they don't tell.

[David Sims]

He's just like, I'm in trouble. Well, I, I, I, I am not going to talk about that. You know, like.

[Zach Kreger]

And it's like a 10% finders fee on 750 is 75,000. That's not going to do it. He owes this other guy. He's building this other guy out of 350,000. This is 1987 in Minnesota. Like, what have you done? How did you get in the hole like this?

[David Sims]

What do you have to show for it?

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, it's one of the most effective single lines in screenwriting history in my mind, which is when the Harv Presnell character says they will never need for money.

[David Sims]

Right. It's a, you know the names of the characters.

[Zach Kreger]

Scotty and Scotty never.

[David Sims]

Scotty and Gene never have to wor.

[Griffin Newman]

It's so perfect because I think from that moment you can extrapolate. William H. Macy has gotten in over his skis, basically, I assume five years trying to figure out some big scheme to impress his father in law and be like, look how much money I made.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And the deeper he gets in the hole, the more he doubles down and tries to find some other way to not only bail himself out, but get out ahead. And he just keeps falling deeper and deeper and deeper. And it's like that sentiment which you just imagine he's been hearing things to this effect for so long have gotten so deeply in his head, and yet that guy's read on him is a hundred percent correct.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

The most devastating thing is that he knows the guy knows he's got him pegged.

[David Sims]

Does anybody like Jerry?

[Griffin Newman]

No. He sucks.

[David Sims]

He sucks, right?

[Zach Kreger]

Does, does Gene and Scotty like Jerry?

[David Sims]

I don't think they do.

[Griffin Newman]

I think they tolerate.

[David Sims]

I think Gene thinks he's all right.

[Griffin Newman]

Scotty seems kind of embarrassed by him.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Although Scotty's like so into Accord.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Zach Kreger]

And another, that's an amazing poster.

[David Sims]

Unaddressed thing is that like the two things on his wall are a white snake poster and like an accordion poster.

[Griffin Newman]

But the evidence that no one likes him is how quickly all of his customers are like, fuck you.

[Zach Kreger]

Yeah. And his co worker who's chewing the burritos like he got extra tickets and he's like, what the fuck are you talking about?

[David Sims]

That is what I think about that guy all the time. That he won't even enter. He's like, why are you even asking? But he's Disgusted that Jerry is asking for a gopher stick.

[Griffin Newman]

He is like, a rare example of a guy who everyone in the universe feels comfortable. Big dog.

[David Sims]

I'm gonna open the dossier.

[Griffin Newman]

And just being like, you fucking.

[David Sims]

Yeah, you definitely suck. I'm gonna open the dossier. Now we can dig into the sort of genesis of this movie, but I do think the customer saying a fucking liar is the greatest, like, fuck in history. The way, like, he's so polite. He's such a good Minnesota guy. He's being screwed over so plainly that he's like, I think I can call this guy a fucking liar. And so. But it's hard getting it a fucking liar.

[Zach Kreger]

See him decide to cut.

[David Sims]

Exactly.

[Zach Kreger]

It's great.

[Griffin Newman]

Before you open the dosse, can I throw out my big thought I had watching the movie last night? It's not a profound thought. It's a very. It's a very trite thought.

[David Sims]

Growler needs a jump. What's your thought?

[Griffin Newman]

I think, if anything, this movie is about the difference between being nice and being a good person.

[David Sims]

Sure. Absolutely. Of course. That's why. That is why the setting is the setting.

[Griffin Newman]

That's, like the core tension of the movie. And that scene's a perfect example where that guy is just like, I have been wronged.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And I'm trying to decide, if I say right now, does that make me a bad person? And it's like, no, it's impolite, but it's justified.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Versus a bunch of people being very nice and polite and doing awful things. David.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

All summer. Every summer, I'm on edge. I don't want to get burned. Burned. Just even 30 seconds of direct exposure, sunlight could get me burned. And there's very little I can do to prevent it. Which is why I want to do everything I can to prevent getting burned by my wireless deal.

[David Sims]

Yeah, you're. You don't want to just get burned by the sun. You also don't want to get burned by the wireless deal.

[Griffin Newman]

Because I was setting up.

[David Sims]

Yeah, you're planning your beach Trips and your BBQs. That's what I'm talking about.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. That's the thing I love doing.

[David Sims]

But if my wireless bill is holding me back, I'm in trouble. So I made the switch to Mint Mobile, because with Mint Mobile, you can get the coverage and speed you're used to for way less money. For a limited time, Mint mobile is offering three months of unlimited premium wireless service for 15 bucks a month. So while your friends are sweating over their data overages and Their surprise charges. You're going to be chilling, literally and financially. Griffin.

[Griffin Newman]

David, the words you just threw at me, they're like aloe vera on the burns I have left over from my previous wireless provider.

[David Sims]

All plants come with high speed data, unlimited talk and text deliver on the nation's largest 5G network. You can use your own phone, you can bring your own phone number. All your existing content here, they don't.

[Griffin Newman]

Make you use someone else's phone. That would be really inconvenient if it was a good deal, but you had to borrow someone else's phone.

[David Sims]

That would be very annoying. Look, if I needed this product, it's what I'd use.

[Griffin Newman]

David. This year you can skip breaking a sweat and breaking the bank. You get this new customer offer and your three month unlimited wireless plan for just 15 bucks a [e-mail] check. That's mintmobile.com check. Upfront payment of $45 required, equivalent to $15 a month limited time. New customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slowly above 35 GB on unlimited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

[David Sims]

So this film comes after the Hudsucker Proxy. Obviously, the Hudsucker Proxy was a bit of a failure for the Cones. I don't know your take on the Hudsucker Proxy, Zach. It's a great movie in my opinion.

[Zach Kreger]

It's one of their.

[David Sims]

They're.

[Zach Kreger]

They're only like two con brothers movies that I. I don't necessarily fully connect with. And, And I want to love the Hudsucker proxy. I've probably seen it seven or eight times. I always start it and, and I'm so dazzled in the beginning, and I. I always kind of fall off the bike at some point in the middle of that movie.

[Ben Hosley]

What.

[Griffin Newman]

What's the other one? Or two, out of curiosity.

[Zach Kreger]

The other one is, is. And I hate to. I hate to do any. Any sort of negative talk about any Coen brothers movie because their. Their worst days is still, yes, really fascinating and worth, you know, study. But, you know, lady Killers, I. I have a hard time connecting.

[David Sims]

I don't think anyone's really gonna like, wrinkle their nose at you saying the lady Killers ain't the best.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

But re Hudsucker, I'm. It's like this movie was not a conscious reaction to that. They had already been writing it before they shot Hudsucker. The script was. I think they're always just kind of like working on the next thing as their projects spool up.

[Griffin Newman]

But certainly post Hudsucker, it wasn't like other studios were saying, you nailed it. Here's another 40 million doll, big special effects driven comedy.

[David Sims]

Right. Fargo is, according to the Cohens, and I think this is basically true, their most realistic script yet. It is contemporary. Ish. It's right slightly before Blood Simple. Blood simple is also contemporary and it's also very simple. I mean, honestly, it's kind of their most blood simply script since Blood Simple.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And it feels like them sort of going back to what they were trying to do in that movie with the knowledge they've gained over the.

[David Sims]

But they're like, yeah, we want to use unembellished sets. We want to use real locations. And they did include this title card saying the film was based on a true story. They've sort of said a lot of things over that over the years. Yeah, obviously this movie's not based on a true story. Supposedly somebody maybe died thinking it was based on a true story, which is the basis of the also not true movie, Kumiko the Treasure Hunter, which is a great movie. Very cool movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Just so conceptually smart. Have you ever seen that movie, Zach?

[Zach Kreger]

I haven't. I should. It's a good movie.

[Griffin Newman]

So fucking good. But it. It similarly is like. Starts with the title card, and this is based on a true story. And then as a movie based on an urban legend about someone believing that Fargo was true and going and looking for the bag of money.

[David Sims]

The Cohen say they kind of heard tall tales, essentially along those lines growing up in Minnesota of this kind of stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

There are little stories that are like little true crime newspaper clippings.

[David Sims]

But I think the Paul Bunyan stuff, it's like, Paul, like, this is a tall tale. Like a little bit, right? Like, it's a modern tall tale.

[Griffin Newman]

The stories that it seems to be riffing on feel very like. And I swear to God, this happened to my cousin's friend.

[David Sims]

Right. But I think they know, and they do acknowledge it in one interview that, like, saying a movie's based on a true story locks the audience in in a weird sort of a way where the audience is not going to be like, well, this is fanciful, or like, that would never happen. Because they're like, well, they said it was based on a true story. Like, so I also think they.

[Griffin Newman]

They post Miller's Crossing and Barton Fink are aware of the fact that eggheads are trying to overanalyze their movies.

[David Sims]

You should do that in front of the Resident Evil movie you're doing, Zach. You should Start with like, this is based on a true story. Umbrella is real and they are up to no good.

[Griffin Newman]

You should recut Barbarian to have that in. You should just make that like. Like, going forward. All movies have.

[Zach Kreger]

This is based on in weapons. The first line of the movie is, this is a true story.

[David Sims]

Hell yeah. There you go. So there have been lots of.

[Griffin Newman]

But yes, I think, no, no, it's because the other incident. There was some incident. The. The circumstances were very different, but of a guy hiring people to kidnap his wife to make the ransom money back. All these things that were very loose inspirations in a way that's sort of like Texas Chainsaw Massacre says it's based on a true story. And you're like, yeah, Ed Gain kill. This is not really basic.

[David Sims]

It's sort of a true crime movie. They consider Blood simple to be more like a James M. Cain type, you know, noir thriller. Right. Fargo, they wanted to be drier, less hard boiled. But then obviously they are also. Blood Simple's a Texas movie, and this is about where they grew up. Of course, the movie is named after a city in North Dakota where almost none of the action happens.

[Griffin Newman]

It is only the encounter at the bar at the beginning of the film.

[David Sims]

And they just like how far it go sounds. And they're right. It's a great title for a movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. They were like, brainerd's a bad title, right?

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Working Title Films had sort of co produced Hudsucker, proxy British production company and which it becomes one of their biggest collaborators. They financed this film. I think it cost about $7 million. Like it was not like a mega production or anything like that.

[Griffin Newman]

Look, their movies are not losing massive amounts of money up until Hudsucker. And as you pointed out, a couple of them made a little profit. But our buddy Alex Ross Perry was on Big Picture recently and was talking about this thing that's kind of disappeared from the American film industry, which is like Wes Anderson makes Bottle rocket for like $5 million at Columbia and it bombs, but it gets good reviews. And people are like, okay, you only get 15 to make your next movie at Disney.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

This sense of like, if there's innate talent and there's a voice and actors want to work with this person, that people will keep kind of investing in you in the hopes that it will pay out at some point, which certainly like Circle Films had with them and Working Title had with them.

[David Sims]

Many of the roles are written for the actors that play them. McDormand, Buscemi, Stormare. Had they worked with McDormand properly since raising Arizona. No, I'm bad at this. Is she in Miller's Crossing? I always forget. She certainly hasn't done a major role for them, basically, since Blood Simple. Yeah, no, she hasn't at all.

[Griffin Newman]

Shemi's been in all of their movies in small roles. Not all of them, but a lot of them.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Stormare. They wanted in Miller's Crossing.

[David Sims]

Yes. They grew up in Minnesota. They're very familiar with Minnesota. Nice culture, which is obviously something that I think was introduced to me and a lot of people via the movie Fargo, which we're discussing today.

[Griffin Newman]

I think my exposure point was probably the 1996 movie Fargo.

[David Sims]

Now, Zach, you're not from the Midwest, right? Where are you from?

[Zach Kreger]

East Coast.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Right. So you two possibly exposed to Minnesota. Nice type vibes. Swedish friendliness. Weird. You know all this through Fargo.

[Zach Kreger]

Fair to say.

[David Sims]

Joel's quote about Marge being pregnant and wearing a puffy coat is like. He's like. The sponginess is part of it. Like, Fermin is so nice. Everyone's bouncing off of people. They kind of like, we wanted her to kind of, like, talk funny and wear a funny hat and walk funny because she's pregnant, but not be a clown. Like, we wanted this kind of cliche cop, but she's a good cop. Like, she's good at her job, and she's very competent, despite being this, like, cartoon nice lady. Like, the way she's, like, toddling around and then being like, ah. You know, like, to this, like, grisly, miserable murder scene.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[David Sims]

And, like, it's not like they're like, what? You know those Swedish dramas about murder that are so popular? They're always like, oh, my God, murder in Sweden. This is so terrible. Like, in a country where no one murders, they should sort of be saying that here where they're. They. One would imagines they're like. We don't see a lot of, like, insane murders here in fucking Brainerd. Right. But they're never like that. They're more just kind of like, oh, boy. You know?

[Griffin Newman]

But that, like, speaks to this notion of a dark Marge thing where it's like, she's. This isn't her first day on the job. Even if this case. The fucking ice.

[David Sims]

No, I'm just drinking some water. Sorry.

[Griffin Newman]

I would say the audio says different. Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

But you can tell that she has seen many murders, and this is just her job.

[Griffin Newman]

And part of her demeanor is to sort of, like, cope with it and cover it, you know, and not like, I Mean, we've talked about other movies. Like, Manhunter is always the one I think about.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Where that, for me, is a movie about a guy who's just, like, spent enough time in the darkness that he's actually never going to come out now.

[David Sims]

Right. Manhunter. I mean, Will Graham is like, I'm so good at understanding murderers that my head hurts.

[Griffin Newman]

And I'm half the time the point of no return. Like, I no longer know how to talk to my wife.

[David Sims]

The way McDormand puts it about Marge says, she says, there's something scary about Marge that's hard to articulate. She's simple and on the surface, but she's not naive. She's not innocent because she's good at her job, which gives her contact with crime and murder. But she has absolutely no understanding of why people do the terrible things they do. Possibly she represents the certain feeling which I think Joel and Ethan felt felt growing up in Minnesota. But, like, she does. She's sort of hinting at, like, yeah, there's something kind of like, inherently odd about this case that might be the.

[Zach Kreger]

Core of Dark Marge is this willful sort of lack of acknowledgement that Minnesota Nice has. You know, Marge is looking out the windshield at the end of the movie. She says, and it's a beautiful day. And it is not a beautiful day. It is like sleeting. You feel like you're in Mongolia, you know, and it's like the worst day of all. And so this just total, like, I'm just deciding to only see the positive. Everything is fine. And it's an interesting sort of. Of dichotomy with her where she is unfazed by murder, and yet she is, you know, ignoring the darkness that is clearly all around her. She is maybe that's the core of it.

[Griffin Newman]

Active work into trying to maintain some core belief in humanity.

[David Sims]

Here's my. I've seen Thargo a million times, so I do not worry about Marge. Like, I know she's going to make it through the movie, and I probably always knew that because she does feel indestructible. But, like, when you're with Marge in this movie, I would say, let's maybe put aside the Mike Yanagi to see scene. You're very comforted. Like, them being in bed together is so comfortable.

[Griffin Newman]

It is one of the healthiest.

[Zach Kreger]

You want to just crawl into that bed and just snuggle off.

[Griffin Newman]

100% I've ever seen depicted.

[David Sims]

Gotta eat a breakfast. Is, you know, what her husband.

[Griffin Newman]

I saw someone else call out by.

[David Sims]

The Way, them eating Arby's together, like, you know, all their. Like. Usually you're just, like, very happy to be in her presence.

[Griffin Newman]

Every scene they have together, they're either eating in bed or both.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

It is literally always some form of, like, comfort, effort.

[David Sims]

And, like, I. I wonder about, like, watching this movie for the first time. Did you. Did it. Did people have the kind of. Like, Marge, is. Is she gonna be okay? Like, she's like, yeah. Kind of moseying into this, like, awful thing. Like. But I don't. I. I'm trying to imagine ever feeling that she's.

[Zach Kreger]

I think because she's pregnant. We know this.

[David Sims]

Yeah. It's like, they're not gonna do that. There is some sort of, like, fundamental, like. No. Like, she will.

[Zach Kreger]

They're not allowed to kill the.

[Griffin Newman]

It does bake innate sort of stakes into it. It does make your lizard brain sort of on guard. Like, you feel more worried about her. Even though it's hard to think of a movie with a character being pregnant where you see the belly less, in a way.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Because as you said, she's so bundled.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, you're sort of aware of it. But they're not constantly, like, showing you her in maternity pants or whatever.

[Zach Kreger]

And they only verbally acknowledge it. I think twice in the whole movie when she says, carrying quite a load here. And I think maybe at the end when they say two more months, but that's about it.

[David Sims]

It's Right. Right. No one is ever like, are you okay?

[Zach Kreger]

But when Mikey Anagita hugs her too tight, she. You know, she mentions it then.

[David Sims]

Buscemi, obviously, is in a lot of their movies. In Miller's Crossing is literally hired because they need a motor mouth. They need someone who can read dialogue fast. So they write this for him thinking, like, you will be the person who doesn't shut up.

[Ben Hosley]

Up. Yeah.

[David Sims]

He's also. And Ethan says this. He's the audience.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Like, 100%. He's the one who basically reacts to everyone with, like, what the. Is the matter with you? To Jerry, to Grim, to G. To Harvey Presnel when he meets him.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Like, like, he. He is an outsider and kind of an alien and, like, the only non Minnesota. I mean, I g. Is sort of, like, actually Swedish, I guess, but, like, he kind of accounts.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

Although steveishami, you do get the vibe that he is, if not from this neck of the woods, intimately familiar with. With these. These territories.

[David Sims]

He knows where to get laid. Go get laid.

[Griffin Newman]

To get laid. And how.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

William H. Macy is the only sort of star that was cast. Like, you know where they are.

[Ben Hosley]

He.

[David Sims]

He reads for the deputy detective for Carl.

[Ben Hosley]

Carl.

[David Sims]

Is that his name? I'm not sure. No. Lou. Lou.

[Zach Kreger]

Sorry.

[David Sims]

Not sure I agree with you 100% of your police work there, Lou. They like the audition. And the Cohen are like, that was funny. I mean, because William H. Macy at this point, I think is basically just kind of like.

[Griffin Newman]

He's like a mammoth theater guy and he's done something small.

[David Sims]

He's on ER in like a big recurring role. He's a Chicago sort of semi legend or whatever, but he's not like a big movie actor. And at his audition, the Cohens are like, you should read Jerry. Like, this was good. So they send him away and he comes back tomorrow and he does his audition and they said, that's real good. Thanks. And then he finds out that they're auditioning in New York still. So as he puts it, I got my jolly Lutheran ass on an airplane and walked in and said, I want to read again because I'm scared you're going to screw this up and hire someone else.

[Griffin Newman]

He has said, I want to get his quote here. He said. I actually said that, you know, you can't play that card too often as an actor. Sometimes it just blows up in your face. But I said, guys, this is my role. I want this. I like his acknowledgement that most of the time people do those fucking gambits. It is like, so beyond destructive and embarrassing to their careers.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, you hear about the rare examples.

[David Sims]

People shouldn't tell those stories because it emboldens people probably to act crazy. Right, Right. They had written the part as like a sort of slovenly guy. And with Macy, they're like, no, it's like a tightly wound performance, essentially. That's wild.

[Zach Kreger]

They have conceived of this as like a sloven.

[David Sims]

Like, like a kind of overweight, like, loser. Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

That is insane.

[Griffin Newman]

They also would have.

[Zach Kreger]

Who would have been right for that?

[Griffin Newman]

No one.

[David Sims]

The true coat scene where the guy calls him a liar is an experience Ethan Cohen had essentially word for word.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Like buying a car in Minnesota.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And never for forgot, clearly.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Harvey Presnell, who is so amazing in this movie and has a voice like a car engine.

[Griffin Newman]

You said this in our Jurassic park episode. But that the magic of that movie is any senior watching whoever's on screen at that moment you think is the best performance in the movie. And Fargo's another one of those. Every time I watch it, I'm like, who's my best supporting actor nominee?

[David Sims]

He's so good.

[Griffin Newman]

And, like, some of the one scene performances, I'm like, well, it's this guy.

[David Sims]

The thing with him is he is a sort of a Broadway legend and, like, a big singer.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And when you realize that about him, because then later in life, he was this kind of gravelly character.

[Griffin Newman]

I thought this was his first movie in, like, 15 or 20 years.

[David Sims]

I think it was a bit of a resurgence for him because then he's in Saving Private Ryan. He has an incredible monologue in Saving Private Ryan.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And he does.

[Zach Kreger]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

He does die, of course.

[David Sims]

Yeah, he was funny on that.

[Griffin Newman]

He was very good.

[David Sims]

But, yeah, he does, like, 10 years of fun, this.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Right. Yeah. But I obviously mostly associate him with Fargo. But they had. They wrote that character basically when they were raising money for Blood Simple. They met lots of, like, Texas businessmen, you know, who were like, sort of like, sort of little petty kings. And this is what that character is. A guy who's, like, made a lot of money, but kind of in, like. Like, his locality.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And so, yeah, Jerry's like, obviously the loser version of that. And this is. And then Joel, John Carroll lynch. The great, great, great John Carroll Lynch. They just loved his face.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

He's so good.

[Griffin Newman]

So they talking about, like, the secret edge to Marge, the hidden edge. McDormand. I just love this idea that McDormand felt comfortable enough to constantly push them to be like, like, what's going on under the surface here?

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Which other actors I think kind of wouldn't. She was like, what's our backstory? And they were like, I don't know. You guys figure it out.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And the thing they settled on was that they met on the force together when they decide to get married. They were like, this is too dangerous for both of us. And he quit because she was a better cop. But so there's the thing about that.

[Zach Kreger]

Backstory, though, that doesn't jive with Mike Yanagita together. Oh, you married old Norm? Son of a Gunderson. Like, Mike knew Norm back in the day.

[Griffin Newman]

So I guess maybe they didn't meet on the force, but that they were both cops. I mean, they also said the Cohens were like, I don't know, whatever, if that. If that makes you guys happier. But, like, the way they were playing internally was they both knew that she was the better cop. It would be absurd for her to retire, even if she's the one who's pregnant.

[David Sims]

Deakins. Roger Deakins shoots this Movie absolutely went insane.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Just incredible.

[Griffin Newman]

And yet coming off of Hudsucker in particular, I was watching some of his commentary on this.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

The DVD has a Deacon's commentary. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And he's his podcast now that he does with his wife. Team Deacons is so good.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

This commentary was recorded, like, 25 years ago, and it feels like he's not super comfortable talking at length about stuff.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Not that he's cagey, but it feels. Feels like he hasn't. Whatever. But he did say, like, I read this script, and it was just so good, and the characters are so good and they cast such good actors that I was like, I don't need to do anything fancy here. This location's interesting. And you just watch it with the commentary. And he keeps breaking down, like, yeah, this is another scene where it's two setups total.

[David Sims]

Well, they initially told him, we only want fixed shots, like, you're doing nothing. And then they realized, like, that's maybe a little too puritanical, but it is. And they do move the camera and, like, you know, there's a little bit of stuff, but it's a.

[Griffin Newman]

Pretty. In every scene, I was.

[David Sims]

No coverage.

[Griffin Newman]

What's the simplest way to cover this? And the only things I care about are, like, capturing the performance and the performance relative to their environment. As you were saying, Zach? It's like such a location movie that. And it's also. It's a thing that I find so fascinating about them and especially their work with Deakins, that they almost always, if not literally always shoot inside of the conversation. You kind of never get over the shoulder stuff with the Cohens, you're always placed in between the people talking.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And that part of it is, I think Deakins talks about. He came out of documentaries first and foremost and his school of thought for how meticulous he's able to meticulously construct what feels like the perfect frame. He talks about it being a pretty organic process that for him, it's like figuring out how to do with the fewest number of lights possible, the fewest setups, like, simplify it. And he's like, my guiding principle is just like, what is the best place for the camera to be to capture what the actor's doing? Because he's used to that from documentaries of, like, you might not get multiple setups. You just need to be. Have the right relationship to the subject in that moment. And so everything is just kind of like, drilled down to, like, you want to be right there, as if the person is kind of Talking to you in the center of the space.

[David Sims]

Movies entirely. Location basically no sets at all. There's one bathroom set. That's it.

[Zach Kreger]

That's gotta be the storm air shower curtain.

[David Sims]

Right where they're fucking things up. That makes sense. And they famously. I feel like it's the most disgusting thing about this movie. Had no snow. They had a weird mild winter. So they had to bring in a ton of artificial snow. Snow. And then they had to like go to North Dakota to shoot big exterior stuff because they had to go find snow essentially.

[Griffin Newman]

Deacon said the opening credits shot is one of the last things they shot because they finally had given up and were like we're not getting the snow we need. We have to travel out and we'll get that last.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Guys, do you want to talk about Fargo?

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Okay, great. Fargo.

[Griffin Newman]

So yes. Opens with. With true story cards than this negotiation between Macy and.

[David Sims]

I'm not going to debate you, Jerry.

[Zach Kreger]

Sorry that's such a big deal here. And, and, and I. David, I feel like you wanted to slide past it.

[David Sims]

But I have to put the brakes.

[Zach Kreger]

1987 is important.

[Ben Hosley]

Yep.

[Zach Kreger]

I think that's important.

[David Sims]

Why do you think that's important? I don't disagree with you.

[Zach Kreger]

I think it's because it's about the end of the Reagan era. It's about the financial boom that is coming to an end here.

[David Sims]

But there, you know, like the rugged individualism of Harvey Presl of the dad. Right. Being like this is my money. Like I feel. It all feels very 80s, very Reagan. Like he's like I'm as. I'm this self made like macho man. Right. And like that's what Jerry wants to be.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Also not. Look, Reagan was not a Minnesota guy.

[David Sims]

No, he sure wasn't.

[Griffin Newman]

Was not his kind of Persona and the way he like built off Hollywood history.

[David Sims]

I will trump trumpet. Minnesota is the only state that did not vote for Ronald Reagan in either election. It's the only state.

[Griffin Newman]

Pretty nice of them.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That's wild.

[David Sims]

Isn't that crazy? Now that's partly because Walter Mondale was from Minnesota. So he did win his home state. It was the only state he won.

[Zach Kreger]

He slept 49 states.

[David Sims]

Reagan won 49 states. And Walter Mondale won Minnesota and Washington D.C. wow. Yep.

[Ben Hosley]

Wow.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Reagan won by 18 points. It was a big win.

[Griffin Newman]

That as well for old Rob times.

[Zach Kreger]

No, I just think it's interesting that this opening title card doesn't just say this is based on a true story. It gives the year and then it says if I remember Correctly, names have been changed to protect the innocent, and out of respect for the dead, the rest has been told exactly as it occurred. It's like, that is a little bravado.

[David Sims]

Stating that of like, yeah, we barely wrote the thing. This is exactly what happened.

[Zach Kreger]

It's awesome. And it's more convincing. It's like they. They did it perfectly.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's also. I mean, it's where, like, I don't think this movie is even, like, incidentally based off of little snippets of news stories as much as it is based on the idea of reading something like this in the paper and being like, that's so bizarre.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

And you.

[David Sims]

The magic of true crime.

[Griffin Newman]

If you saw it in a movie, you'd be like, this is overwritten versus telling you this is real. You're like, I guess weird shit happens.

[David Sims]

Happens. Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

You must have seen that clip of William H. Macy describing the moment he learned it wasn't. And he's on set like, he was already in production.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, yes, they didn't.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

And they. And he found out it wasn't based on a true story. And he goes up to the cones. He's like, you guys, this is not true. And they're like, no. He's like, you can't do that. Yeah, we can. And it's just, like, one mix. He goes, okay. It's just like, there's nothing to be said, I guess.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

No one's gonna, like, find that.

[Zach Kreger]

You would get so deep in the process and. And. And not know.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, also just be like, you didn't, like, research the real guy, but yet you feel betrayed by this.

[Zach Kreger]

Think about. Yeah, you didn't want to meet anyone who knew Jerry Lundard.

[Griffin Newman]

You found no, like, supporting material to, like, look into. No, I was just gonna say there's something in the, like. I mean, it's the.

[Zach Kreger]

The.

[Griffin Newman]

The Phil Hartman Reagan SK.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

But there's something in, like, Reagan's public Persona that does feel a little adjacent to the, like, Minnesota. Nice energy of this movie where this guy, like, phoniness.

[Zach Kreger]

Is that the word?

[David Sims]

Yeah, sure. Yeah. Like, Right. Use his.

[Griffin Newman]

Sort of, like, old Hollywood folks see, like, I'm just the gipper kind of thing. And, like. Right. Sold this sort of like, it's morning in America. How can you argue with this?

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Don't we all want America to be like. Like it was in the morning. But it's. Right. Basking, like a very kind of mercenary, strategic mind.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

And it just sets the stage for the. For everything that comes after it's. Like everything is now seen through a different lens. You know, you engage with the movie in a completely new way, and you indulge these little scenes of slower pacing because you believe this really happened. I just think it's. You take that out, you know, you watch this movie without that title card, you have a completely different experience.

[David Sims]

I think you're right. I think it does. Right. It just sort of locks the audience in.

[Griffin Newman]

It's another read on the Mike Yanagata scene I love. Sorry. That I love is that it's in there. Because it's the kind of thing that would be included in a movie based on its story.

[David Sims]

We cut to her talking head, and she's like. And then I got lunch with my friend Mike Yanaguita, and it was a little funny.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, no one would write that, but if it was part of the real story, I guess you'd need to figure out how to dramatize it.

[David Sims]

So the first. But the first meeting in Fargo, trying to think what to highlight, apart from just, like, the clash between. Buscemi's kind of like, I'm not gonna debate Jerry, you know, energy, and Jerry's. Aw, shucks, Ness. Yeah. You're scrolling through the movie here.

[Zach Kreger]

One interesting thing about this interaction is it's the only window we get into Gar at all. Beyond, this guy's a stone cold psychopath because Gar leans in and he says, oh, your fucking wife. You know, like, he. Garrett, displays some sort of, like, moral judgment on Jerry for this. For this scheme. He's like, you want us to kidnap your own wife? It's just fascinating because for the rest of the movie, he. He shows nothing.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

He otherwise seems like the single most scrupulous character because, like, even Busemi sort of goes like, why the would you do this? You know, as much as I think he prides himself on being a guy who can override any sense of morality, Buscemi clearly has checks and balances in his head, and he feels fear from doing the wrong thing. Even if he's like, it's worth it for money, versus Gar just kind of.

[David Sims]

Seems to be like, well, Gare's like a psychopath.

[Griffin Newman]

He's a true psychopath. And he almost feels like a spiritual, demonic force.

[David Sims]

Right, Right. But, yeah, I guess Carl is a petty criminal, is basically right. Like, that is his general, like, prides himself on.

[Griffin Newman]

I can, like, do the unkind.

[David Sims]

He's certainly not. They're not being hired. No funny stuff. This is a no rough stuff type of deal.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And but yes, the idea, of course, is that they're gonna get 80 grand and split it.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

We do not realize until way later in the movie, obviously, that the real scheme is that there's a million dollars that the criminals will just get a tiny amount of. I feel like when you learn that, there's something so brazen about it that you're kind of like, God, that's so smart of Jerry. And you're also like, that's so stupid of Jerry. It's way too much money. Like, it's crazy.

[Zach Kreger]

You know what would have happened if, you know, when. When his father in law was listening in on the call with Carl, if Carl had said, bring the 80 grand, his father in law would have known in that moment, Right? Jerry did all of this.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Zach Kreger]

Why am I putting a million bucks in this briefcase when the kidnappers are asking for 80?

[David Sims]

And of course, there's so many tension points at movie if. If people would just kind of be like, yeah, fine, I'll pay you a little extra for the car.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[David Sims]

Or whatever. That, like, that's the magic of the Cohen, obviously, is here.

[Griffin Newman]

But also to your point, you're like, does he get away with it? If it's a million and they're doing.

[David Sims]

A split, there's no way they get away with it in any circumstances, Right? Like, there's no way.

[Griffin Newman]

You're right.

[David Sims]

There is no way that the wife gets returned.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And they escape with the money. And everyone's like, oh, well, that was weird, but who cares?

[Griffin Newman]

But it is, right? I mean, look, the core mistake, Jerry's.

[David Sims]

Like, oh, and I bought a parking lot, by the way.

[Zach Kreger]

Here's a question.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

Let's say that they had killed Gene and yet Jerry got the million dollars, right?

[David Sims]

Okay, so, like, everything proceeds the same way. It's just that Jerry escapes with the money.

[Zach Kreger]

He gets the money and. And he doesn't even have to flee. Like, he gets the money. They killed Gene. He never gets her back. The police are like, we're so sorry your wife was murdered, but he's a million dollars richer. Do you think Jerry considers that that kind of a win? I mean, is. Is he also a psychopath? I think he is.

[David Sims]

He is. Or he's at least the rest of.

[Zach Kreger]

His life with this terrible secret and not be so bothered by it.

[David Sims]

He's a bad person. And I'm not out here to call, you know, to cast judgment. But the moment where what's the. Stan Grossman is like, how's your son? And he goes, oh, oh, like and you see it dawn on him, like, right, my son's probably pretty up about this. This is so shattering because you're just like. So there's like a hint, right. Of like humanity left to Jerry. He doesn't love that this is happening.

[Griffin Newman]

That's why I don't think he's like.

[David Sims]

Jerry doesn't want his wife to die. I don't think he likes her like, that much.

[Zach Kreger]

Has never occurred to him in the weeks and weeks of putting this together. Like, oh, Scotty might be upset. It's not until that moment that. That somebody else brings it to his attention, I think reinforces that this dude would be fine if Gene died. He just doesn't care.

[Griffin Newman]

I, I think it's less innately a sociopath and more that like his innate insecurity and his lack of confidence in how he is perceived relative to like, masculinity in the world has completely curdled his brain. Like, it now overrides every other decision he makes. It's all through the calculus of, like, how do I impress people? How do I look like a guy that people have to treat with respect.

[David Sims]

Yeah. I. He's. Whatever. He obviously prioritizes his own security as well over his wife's life.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

He wants to pay off his debts. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And I think there's a version of him that's like, if he owns a parking lot and people feel sympathy for him because his wife died and he can get away with it.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

That's a win.

[Griffin Newman]

That's an additional win.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

I mean, let's say he never did this scheme. Let's say he was just on the up and up. He made some bad investments. He owes $750,000 or something like that, and he. He files bankruptcy.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

His father in law would probably pressure Jean to divorce him and he would be a divorced dad and he'd live at the Jolly Roger, you know, down.

[David Sims]

Down, down the road.

[Zach Kreger]

That that to him is so unacceptable.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes. That.

[Zach Kreger]

That this is the action he takes.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah. It's just fascinating.

[Griffin Newman]

I have no doubt that Jean's father would try to, even more than before, convince her to leave him.

[David Sims]

Him.

[Griffin Newman]

And yet, as much as we're saying that she doesn't seem to like, really love him. You. They make a choice to not have her be some nagging, rolling pen wife.

[Zach Kreger]

I think she would stick with him.

[Griffin Newman]

I think she'd stick.

[Zach Kreger]

Father in law would have to bail him out financially and it would just be this toxic, poisonous wedge. But in, in that relationship. But I think that is his ultimate fear.

[Griffin Newman]

That's his ultimate fear.

[Zach Kreger]

This man will. Will hate me more than he does.

[Griffin Newman]

And the ultimate admitting of defeat of this guy owns me. Because the only reason I'm still in the picture is because he bailed me out.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I couldn't prove myself right.

[David Sims]

How they ended up together is also a bit of a mystery. Like, how did Jerry ever charm anyone? In a way. But she does seem like she's not like a total idiot, but she seems like a bit of a kind of like, sweet, simple kind of gal.

[Zach Kreger]

I mean, she's laughing at the most vapid, like, tv, you know, she's not reading a Russian novel on the couch.

[David Sims]

You know, God bless. And that's the sort of, like the classic Cohen's thing where some people are like, are they being patronizing? Like, are they rude? You know, do they hate these characters or whatever? And I'm like, no, they love these characters. I feel like they even kind of love Jerry. Like, Jerry's demise at the end of the movie not to, you know, where he's getting dragged. There's this, like, twinge of sympathy for the guy. You know what I mean?

[Zach Kreger]

Where you're just like, I totally disagree.

[David Sims]

He's such a loser. Like, even. He can't even go at out, like, strong. You know what I mean? Like, them, like, dragging him in his underwear. You're absolutely like, yeah, he deserves it. Like, I'm not like. You're like, ah, poor Jerry. But you're just like, God, he's just always a loser, isn't he?

[Zach Kreger]

But the. The fact that they make him do these guttural grunts, like the crepe pump.

[David Sims]

Lady, like, it's so crazy. I mean, God bless Macy. He, like, goes for it.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You know what I find fascinating?

[David Sims]

I don't.

[Griffin Newman]

It has basically been confirmed, I think, at this point point, that William H. Macy was the original voice of Marlin and Finding Nemo.

[David Sims]

And he was like, too much of a loser.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And they, like, test screened it with, like, story reels before they started animation. And it was like, the audience hates this guy.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And he was like, I don't know. I thought this, like, made sense with the sort of, like, William H. Macy worrying Persona. And he was like, I gotta get someone who's, like, comedian first and foremost and can, like, own this as a dream joke. But it makes sense because there's something so contemptible about him in this mode of, like, pathetic that even when it's funny, it does make your skin crawl.

[Zach Kreger]

And think about him in Boogie Nights. It's like when he put the gun in his mouth, it's like we're all kind of like, oh man, what a loser.

[David Sims]

You know, he really was on such a run of losers right between this and the PTA movies. I know.

[Zach Kreger]

And Magnolia.

[David Sims]

Oh my God, he's the worst in Magnolia. Magnolia. He's amazing in it, obviously. Obviously. But that is a character where like compare, like Jerry is tough. Is a tough hang. He's a big loser. But Quiz Kid Donnie Smith, you're just like, I can't look at this guy.

[Griffin Newman]

Original trivia team name, by the way.

[David Sims]

That's true. Pilot circa CC pirate came up with that name. But like, you can't look at him.

[Griffin Newman]

You're just like with him and Henry Gibson at the bar. Tragic is like one of the most skin crawling things I've ever seen. That's basically what Stanton said is like he was too good of an act actor that you couldn't laugh at this guy being an erotic fish.

[Ben Hosley]

Dad.

[Griffin Newman]

You're just like, oh my God, this guy's up.

[Zach Kreger]

And it's funny to watch him in other movies where he's, he's not a loser. You know, like I watched, I watched Jurassic Park 3 last week. And, and he's. And he's, you know, he's not like a hero. But. But they've jettisoned all pathetic drip out of, out of his character in that. And it's like, what are we doing with this guy? Like, what is. What is happening?

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, now I need to sidebar here for a second because David and I are Both Jurassic Park 3 Defenders. But you're making.

[Zach Kreger]

And I am too.

[David Sims]

I. I had.

[Zach Kreger]

I enjoy.

[Griffin Newman]

I like it. You're making me realize something for the first time. Is that movie missing the Spice of Macy going full Jerry Lundergard?

[David Sims]

Oh, there's a dash of it.

[Griffin Newman]

There's a dash. But if that character totally unravels and becomes that pathetic, but then you need.

[David Sims]

Him to get eaten by dinosaurs, you'd be like, dinosaurs, eat this, man.

[Griffin Newman]

But I, I still think we're solving problems here.

[David Sims]

But what's interesting, Pleasant Phil's in the middle of this run as well, which he's so good. He's excellent in that movie. And he's also playing kind of a loser, but much more lovable character. Very sympathetic character. He can give sympathetic performances. Yeah, he's amazing in Air Force One.

[Griffin Newman]

Wild Hog's one of the most sympathetic performances in history.

[David Sims]

I. What does he do in.

[Griffin Newman]

He's good at computers. He. Marisa Toi.

[David Sims]

Great.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

While in Air Force One. It was you. You've never. Have you seen Air Force One? I have, but, like, it's not.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not one of my.

[David Sims]

I've seen it, like, 400 times. He says it was you. It's in.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, also, let's remember his most emotionally rounded and resonant performance.

[David Sims]

Seabiscuit.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Guy with all the things that make noises.

[David Sims]

He's got a little triangle.

[Griffin Newman]

Remember when they nominated him for a Golden Globe for that performance? Everyone's like, yeah, why not? Who gives a shit?

[David Sims]

So, all right, so Jerry hires these guys, and then we don't mean march for half an hour. So we're just in this immediately unraveling situation. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Like.

[David Sims]

Like, how quickly do we get. I guess we. We go from that to sort of setup of, like, Jerry and his family.

[Griffin Newman]

I think the beginning.

[David Sims]

Dork. Jerry is right.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And then it cuts back to the two of them in the car. And I feel like that's the immediate unraveling is these guys can't get along. Right.

[David Sims]

This is not a team.

[Griffin Newman]

By his silence.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

That he keeps going like, it's fine. I cannot talk. Let's not talk all day. And then he won't stop talking about not talking.

[Zach Kreger]

It's. It's. It's so, so brilliant.

[Griffin Newman]

It's so good.

[Zach Kreger]

Total silence.

[David Sims]

Where's Pancake's house? I, too, would get sick of pancakes. I get sick of pancakes. Usually in the middle of a pancake order.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

And the smoking with the windows up. I mean, that right there would.

[David Sims]

The move store mirrors.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Where. When in the murder. In the. The. You know, the. The crime. The. I don't know how to describe it. The triple homicide scene where he, like, rolls the window down. He just kind of, like, lets the cigarette out of his hand. I think about it all the time.

[Zach Kreger]

It so good. He's kind of, like, rocking in this sort of, like, strange, kind of, like autistic. Right.

[David Sims]

Him going into, like, full psycho mode.

[Zach Kreger]

It's beautiful. It's terrifying. It's.

[David Sims]

Yes, it is. He is so scary.

[Griffin Newman]

But even there's something so resonant in the. Like, hard cut to the two of them fucking in parallel beds in a shitty motel and seemingly getting, like, no joy from it. There is not even this sort of, like, kink to.

[David Sims]

Look, we're doing this together.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. It almost feels like they're annoyed that they just can't afford separate rooms.

[David Sims]

Right. Would you do that? It is so crazy that they do that.

[Zach Kreger]

Never in a million years.

[David Sims]

Someone you. I guess we're basically. These guys have ostensibly kind of just met. Right?

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Is that the idea?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, basically.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

But they don't know each other.

[Griffin Newman]

No. They were like basically set up on a blind crime scale.

[David Sims]

Is it kind of the hardened. These guys have probably both done time thing of like. Like I'm gonna. I need to Someone. I've taken a. In front of someone in a jail cell. Like I don't care. Like it's just kind of like. Right. I'm just gonna.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Let me ride.

[Zach Kreger]

Privacy has been beat out of them in.

[David Sims]

But they're getting the juice from it. Like there's no to it.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

To the sex scene. Is the cut to them then watching tv.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

That just rocks.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And the Tonight show.

[Zach Kreger]

It's just such a funny thing. Like are they gonna laugh once on this episode of the Tonight Show?

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

It's so good the way that the doughboys have turned pulling an autofocus.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Into a term I within a group of. Of friends. Pulling a Fargo is a. Is a joke we throw around a lot.

[David Sims]

The old double double bed hotel room.

[Griffin Newman]

Just kind of like dispassionately have parallel sex and then watch tv.

[David Sims]

It's great that we meet the girls after. And they are just so like chill and silly. They're so fun funny.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean it makes so much sense that they wrote this for Bush. But the repetition of just kind of funny looking.

[David Sims]

It's kind of funny.

[Griffin Newman]

Just more generally more funny looking than most.

[David Sims]

How would you describe him? Because I would go on the teeth first. I'd be like, he's got kind of prominent teeth. But I guess that's kind of like a weird thing to say about someone.

[Griffin Newman]

But the right.

[David Sims]

You would start with the eyes. I'd be like, he's got these like steepy Chevy eyes.

[Griffin Newman]

But this is why. This is why just kind of funny lookings the right thing. Because you're like. You ask 10 different people and they each would start with a different thing about him.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

His lips are French in a way.

[David Sims]

Right? Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

He's got so many different things that on any other person would be their only defining physical characteristic.

[Zach Kreger]

True.

[Griffin Newman]

And you just combine it and you're just like.

[David Sims]

I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

He's just kind of funny looking.

[David Sims]

Just kind of funny looking.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Well.

[David Sims]

Yeah. What else happens?

[Griffin Newman]

Why are you pointing at me?

[David Sims]

You had Fargo up.

[Ben Hosley]

Oh yeah.

[David Sims]

This movie is so perfectly constructed. I'm actually trying.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, so it's them and car. Then it goes to the first negotiation of The True code.

[David Sims]

Yeah, the true code scene. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is. Right, I think, just the depths of how pathetic he is.

[David Sims]

Early.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And then the real failure of that scene is when he admits that the true code is already on it, even though they didn't ask for it. So he's probably going to have to take the financial hit of not charging them for the thing that he thought he could talk them into. Like, there are all these little indignities that keep stacking up in his life.

[Zach Kreger]

What I love about that scene is he, he. He makes this like, totally phony, pouty, like, I'm a bad boy kind of expression at the end. You know, when the guy's pulling his checkbook out and he, he's looking down, Jerry's looking down and he, he's. He's like, you know, mock guilty. It's really. But he knows always the plan. It's great.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Like, everyone sees through him at all times.

[David Sims]

They put that on at the factory we're talking about. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So he's a big loser.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And then, and then it's the, the kidnapping.

[Griffin Newman]

You pretty quickly from there have the establishment of this previous scam he's running with the license plates.

[David Sims]

Right. Where he's what, borrowing money on cars that don't exist? Right. That's what he's doing.

[Zach Kreger]

Why wouldn't he just send in serial numbers of cars that are on the lot? I think I'm too dumb to understand.

[David Sims]

I'm possibly dumb too, but I mean, the reason is probably because, like, that is a crime and would be easily discovered, I guess.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[David Sims]

I don't really know that.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, it speaks to his confidence in something he does not have figured out in that the best I can make sense of his plan is just he thinks he can stall them forever and. Or get the cash.

[David Sims]

I think it's more of a multiplier. Find the money somehow and then return.

[Griffin Newman]

The money back to them eventually when he's like, well, a year from now I'll have 2 million. Billion. And then I go, oh, sorry.

[Zach Kreger]

But wait, because they are.

[Ben Hosley]

They've.

[Zach Kreger]

It seems like they've already fronted him the money because the guy says, or I'll have to recall the loan they've given him. The money says, I got the money. The money came through.

[David Sims]

And the, the assumption, I feel like is that money is gone.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

You got the money and it went wherever it's all going.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That money went to pay off debts that are still not made whole.

[David Sims]

Right. Even though it was three. 300 are the debts.

[Zach Kreger]

Is he a gambler? Like, what, what is it? I'm dying to know.

[David Sims]

That's my question. Ben, do you have a take?

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

I think he's such a bad car salesman that he has not been bringing in any money for his family. Because it's a commission based though.

[David Sims]

No.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

Well, but he's, it's his father in law's dealership, so he's kind of getting away with. With being one of the worst car salesmen of all time. And I really do think he's just like trapped and he's bad at this job. And that is basically how he has been generating money for his family.

[Griffin Newman]

But I also think he keeps like metaphorically going all in at the poker table. Right. Like he's sort of like one smart move and I get myself like ahead.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

And it truly could be like this guy went to a casino one weekend and lost $10,000. In over 15 years, it has spiraled to 2 million. Right. Like, I think it's just that he keeps doubling down on, I'll get the money back. This is risky, but if it works, then I'm.

[Zach Kreger]

He does, he does have some avenue of association with the criminal underworld. He knows Shep Proudfoot. I mean, I think there's a chance that he maybe rubbed elbows with some unsavory grifter guy who convinced him that he had this, you know, this get rich quick scheme. And it was not all the, all the way in the up and up and, and you know, Shep Proudfoot was probably adjacent.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

Things went south and up as his lifeline to maybe a new scheme to.

[Ben Hosley]

Get out of it.

[Griffin Newman]

That is a really good take because this is the exact kind of guy who gets scammed and never recovers from it.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

He's a rube.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? He's a rube. And that is a thing that would only emasculate him further on top of then having the financial anxiety of how do I make myself whole again?

[Zach Kreger]

Because I just don't think that he could have been bad at his job to the point where he secretly owes over half a million dollars dollars, you know, at his father in law's dealership. It's like, if you suck that much at selling cars, like that's gonna work. That, that's gonna, that's on the books.

[David Sims]

You know why? And I know the reason is I should stop nitpicking and who cares? But does he ever think about kidnapping the father in law?

[Zach Kreger]

If who's gonna pay? Stan Grossman.

[David Sims]

Maybe Grossman will do it.

[Griffin Newman]

Maybe.

[David Sims]

Maybe Grossman will free up the funds. But. Yeah, no, I don't know. It's just kind of like.

[Zach Kreger]

Can you imagine, like, trying to kidnap Clint Eastwood? It's just like, it's not gonna.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[Zach Kreger]

It's not gonna work.

[David Sims]

It's just so callous, obviously, to be like, well, my final, final, final bargaining chip is I'm married to someone whose dad is rich, so I guess I can ransom her.

[Griffin Newman]

I just think it's so great that when this movie starts out, you're literally opening with him proposing, you know, or confirming the deal to kidnap her and get the ransom money. We're already so deep into this scam he's been running with the cars, right?

[David Sims]

Which is great. I mean, this is exactly what need to be. We need to be seven eighths of the way into his doom for him to be doing this.

[Griffin Newman]

And he's preparing to pitch the parking lot thing. This guy's got three things that we know of going on at the same time.

[Zach Kreger]

We're in act two on page one.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

You know, yes, that's great. And just. I'm sorry to just. But, like. Because it's connected, right? This scene. I find this scene where he's revealed essentially to be kind of right in meeting, you know, where they're like, this is a good, good deal. The financials of this do kind of make sense to be so satisfying to watch. I watch it a lot because it's the perfect Cohen thing where, like, there's this little note of triumph for him where, like, this guy who clearly resents him for being such a loser and marrying his daughter is like, yeah, I mean, this is a fine deal. And he's like, great, so give me the money. And they're like, why would we do that? We're not a bank.

[Griffin Newman]

The most devastating moment in a certain way is you're like, he doesn't have a chair.

[David Sims]

We just went to a bank. Not that any bank would give him money. He's probably like up to his ears in debt.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's almost the most painful moment in the movie when they go, well, I hope if you're not interested in pursuing to steal your doing it without you. Like, dude, you just lost your finders fee.

[David Sims]

I think they're going to give him the finder's fee. I do think they. Well, maybe not. I don't know.

[Zach Kreger]

They're pretty ruthless in that scene is he has nowhere to sit. You know, he's like, right. He has to sit on the edge of A chair facing the other way. It's just like he is always at.

[Griffin Newman]

Odds, but he's like deep in one scam. He's setting up a crime and he's got a plan for like a legit business.

[David Sims]

He does. He has a way out, but he could never get $1 million essentially to get out.

[Griffin Newman]

No. And by the way, like, if he's smart, what he does is take the finder's fee from it and then go, like, let me find more things like this. Let me build a relationship.

[David Sims]

He's not that smart.

[Griffin Newman]

I also, if he's smart, that's.

[David Sims]

I also think, think if he bought the parking lot, he would screw it up somehow. He would.

[Griffin Newman]

Of course he would.

[David Sims]

He wouldn't like, do it. Right.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

Oh, he's just destined.

[David Sims]

He would mess it up.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

Absolutely.

[Zach Kreger]

He was always going to be face down in a bed with two cops and knees in his back in his boxers.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

I want to say about the deal with the parking lot, he mentions if he makes it happen that he wants to actually pull out on the ransom scheme.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Zach Kreger]

Because he goes to Shep to try and cancel him.

[David Sims]

He thinks he's going to be okay.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

So he set it up in a way where he's like my back backup. Even though his wife has already been kidnapped, Right?

[David Sims]

Well, no, he doesn't know that yet. Oh, okay. He goes home to her being kidnapped.

[Griffin Newman]

It is so stupid of him to engage these two guys before he takes his shot at the parking lot. Like that should be the backup option. He only goes to.

[David Sims]

I think he's in a lot of trouble. He's so desperate. Yes.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

He's so desperate.

[David Sims]

Well, parking lots kind of feature in this movie a lot. The most, I feel like the best shot in the movie is him. Him trudging to his car.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And it's like this lone car in the lot surrounded by snow or whatever. Right. And then like the scene with Carl having to pay four bucks for the long term parking.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And then later, Carl. Carl shooting the other parking guy. Like, parking actually pisses everyone off in this movie and does seem to be this kind of like inescapable money train in Minneapolis.

[Griffin Newman]

But that's also the moment that is so iconic where he loses it trying to scrape the ice.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Off the windshield.

[Zach Kreger]

So I'm.

[David Sims]

I'm having a flash to that dumb hat. Parking lot.

[Zach Kreger]

Larry. Look at that parking lot.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Oh, that's true. That's right.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

So then I think he goes home before we skip the scene where he goes home and his dad is having dinner with them, which is such a great moment, where he goes, dad's joining us for supper. And she's like, yeah. And he's. You can just see. He's just like, another miserable night.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And the kid just wants to go to McDonald's. They aren't drinking milkshakes, I'll tell you that.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

What does he think they are doing? The kid does not seem like that bad a boy.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no, no.

[Zach Kreger]

Yeah. They're not smoking weed at McDonald's.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Like, maybe they're, like, buming one cigarette and, like, passing it around or something. I don't know what they're doing.

[Griffin Newman]

Not drinking. Milkshakes are so funny, though.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

What else? So then the kidnapping.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Which, look, I can quote this movie. I'm sure you're like, this Zach in the. Like, it's like, I can quote this movie visually. You know what I mean? Like, I remember, like, seeing shot transitions and, like, you know, just, like, framing and stuff from this movie. I've seen it so many times, and.

[Zach Kreger]

I'm not the one who walks up the porch. It is one of the greatest. Terrifying and funny. I mean, it is so them. And it just works on every level. And he kind of presses his face to, like, peer through the glare at her, and she's just watching dumbly, like, uncomprehending of what this person is doing. And it's not until the glass breaks that she realizes, like, yeah, danger, idiot, get up. You know, it's so good.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Just her knitting, watching the soap opera, starting to clock him and taking her time to react, just kind of being.

[David Sims]

Like, it can't be what I think it is. Yeah, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Did you guys notice that it's Bruce Campbell in the soap opera?

[David Sims]

Yes, of course.

[Griffin Newman]

And it is an actual soap opera that Bruce Campbell did that they licensed.

[David Sims]

Oh, is that true?

[Zach Kreger]

I was wondering. I was like, this feels so authentic, the way this. The audio sounds and, like, the dial, it just feels so real.

[Griffin Newman]

It was one of his earliest acting jobs that I think they. They did almost in. In the same way that Raimi likes to torture Bruce Campbell.

[David Sims]

Now, Intolerable Cruelty has a soap opera thing, too. Right. But where they, like, made a fake soap opera, there's something with that.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Right. Where there's something on tv. I can't remember.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

Anyway, it's amazing in Fargo how many characters are watching television at all times or trying to watch television. It is a massive theme in this movie, which I think lends itself to the opening Title cards. I think there is something about our addiction to these stories and to this kind of being fed information through a screen that it has to be intentional.

[Griffin Newman]

On this escapism thing of these people who are living these very quiet, controlled lives and dreams.

[David Sims]

It's also so cold, and this movie is so cold. And anytime someone's outside, you're just like, go inside.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[David Sims]

And the movie's communicating that to you. It's hard to be outside and you want to just be warm and you just want to be in Marge's bed watching TV and talking about stamps. And anytime anyone's outside, it just looks so miserable.

[Zach Kreger]

And it looks miserable in the cabin. They've got the oven open and you can see Gene's breath coming through the hood.

[David Sims]

That cabin is tough. Yeah, it's not. That's not the nicest white bear lake owner. I mean, Minnesota has a lot of lakes, right? Famously, 10,000 or so. The kidnapping. Anything we want to say about the kidnapping? Apart from the.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, for how controlled and perfect it is, their ability to stage incredibly clumsy things without it feeling like hyper precise, like slapstick comedy. Like, part of what's upsetting about the kidnapping and also unnerving about it is that it feels like sort of so mundane and messy right in. In all of their movements, but also like the shot sequencing and there being sort of weird amounts of space there. There not being weirdly a sense of urgency to it as much as there's an urgency in her trying to like escape it. And I think she thinks these guys are there to just fucking kill her. They're being so slow and deliberate in their moves. Moves.

[David Sims]

Yep, yep. Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

Peter Stormer, having no concern for anything, you know, he pulls the mask off immediately.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

When he gets bit, you know, and he's. His concern shifts from like this felony, I'm in progress on to. I need to get ointment on my. On my.

[David Sims]

Unguent.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

Yeah. What the hell is unguent?

[David Sims]

Unguin is just a. A name for like a greasy substance, essentially an ointment. You know, like it's. It's so funny that he uses that with word. It's a very old fashioned word. I don't know if the. If the Cohen just think it's funny or if it's supposed to speak to his kind of like, you know, second language.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I need ungwent.

[Griffin Newman]

David.

[David Sims]

What?

[Griffin Newman]

This episode of Blank Check with Griffin David Podcast B Filmographies is brought to you by booking.combooking. yeah, I mean, that's that's what I was about to say. Booking. Yeah. From vacation rentals to hotels across the U.S. booking.com.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Has the ideal stay for anyone, even those who might seem impossible to please. God, I'm trying to think of anyone in my life, perhaps even in this room, Ben. Who's like what's an example of someone I know who maybe has a very.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

Particular set of terms bringing me in and there's only one other person in the room.

[Griffin Newman]

One other person in the room right now.

[David Sims]

This is so rude. I sleep easy. I'm definitely not a. Someone who insists on 800 thread count sheets. No, that's a, that's an example of a fussy person.

[Griffin Newman]

But people have different demands. And you know what? If you're traveling, that's your time to start making demands.

[David Sims]

Maybe you've got a partner who's sleep light, rise early or maybe you know, like you just want someone who wants a pool or wants view or I.

[Griffin Newman]

Don'T know, maybe I'm traveling and I need a room with some good soundproofing cuz I'm going to be doing some remote pod record.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

Maybe you're in Europe and you want.

[Griffin Newman]

To make sure that's very demanding to be in Europe.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

You got air conditioning. Well, think of one person in particular, although it's really both of you.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

You got to have air conditioning.

[David Sims]

I need air conditioning if I'm in the North Pole. Look, if I can find my, my perfect stay on booking.com, anyone can. Booking.com is definitely the easiest way to find exactly what you're looking for.

[Griffin Newman]

Like for me, a non negotiable is I need a gorgeous bathroom for selfies.

[David Sims]

You do. You love selfies.

[Griffin Newman]

As long as I got a good bathroom mirror for selfies, I'm happy with everything else.

[David Sims]

Look, they're again they're specifying like oh maybe you want a sauna or hot tub. And I'm like, sounds good to me. Yeah, please can I check that?

[Griffin Newman]

You want one of those in the recording studio?

[David Sims]

That'd be great.

[Griffin Newman]

You want to start. You want to be.

[David Sims]

I'll be in the sauna when we record.

[Griffin Newman]

I was going to say you, you want to be the Dalton Trumbo a podcast. You want to be splish splash.

[David Sims]

It would be good if I had a sauna and a cold plunge and, and while recording I'm on mic. But you just like as I move to the.

[Griffin Newman]

These are the kinds of demands that book is. Dot com booking.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yes. You can find exactly what you're booking. For booking.com booking. Yeah. Booking.com book today on the site or in the app. Booking.com booking yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

David?

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

I wear glasses.

[David Sims]

Ah. To see.

[Griffin Newman]

I do in fact wear them to see.

[David Sims]

I used to wear them as an affectation when I was a child.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I did the same thing.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I pretended they were real and then people found me out to be a fake. And then because of that, when I started actually needing glasses and wearing them for real, all my friends crying wolf, convinced that it is still just an affectation. But it is not. I, I assume them to see. My vision gets worse by the minute. It feels like sometimes, but I just stopped wearing mine.

[David Sims]

Fine.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

How's that going for you? It sucks.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

See this is the thing, Ben.

[David Sims]

What do you mean? Why'd you stop?

[Marie Barty Salinas]

I just got lazy.

[Griffin Newman]

You gotta get your butt to Warby Parker. You're the one who's always telling me the value of throwing a good fit. Right?

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And feeling good. It affecting your whole sense of self. Right. And Warby Parker is like throwing a fit for the face. Yeah, it is it, it truly it immediately improves, improves your quality of life.

[David Sims]

If you're on board with glasses.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, Right.

[David Sims]

Warby Parker use premium materials. They design frames in house. They've got silhouettes, colors and fits made to fit every face.

[Griffin Newman]

I love the frames themselves. But let me, can I just talk about the experience because David, I went through it again recently.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

I had an old pair of glasses that had been my mains for a while break on me. After several years of loyal service, I selected loot them and I, I went and it was one stop shopping. I said it's been two years. Let me get a new vision test, get your eye exam, get examined, new prescription, eye pressure test. And then immediately while I'm waiting for the results, I'm going around, I'm looking at frames, I'm trying them on and there's a flexibility there.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Folks just want cool sunglasses. You can get them cheaper at Warby Parker than a lot of other places. But sometimes you see a sunglass frame you like and you go, can I actually get this in clear vision lenses? Can I get this pair meant to be readers as sunglasses you can try on all sorts of crazy stuff. This is my new thing. I'm into sunglass clip on. So you just got the one pair.

[David Sims]

Sure. Pull the Chris Farley meme, the sort of flipping up.

[Griffin Newman]

Well that's a flip up, that's not a clip on.

[David Sims]

You know what Warby Parker glasses started $95 with prescription lenses, anti reflective scratch resistant coatings. And then many Warber Parker locations have the comprehensive eye exam starting at $85. You add a pair, you're going to save 15% if you're going to purchase two or more pairs of glasses.

[Griffin Newman]

It's the thing I love or sunglasses, I double up. I'll get one pair of each or I'll get two to have a backup pair.

[David Sims]

They got free shipping, they got free 30 day returns. It's a total one stop shop as you just said. You actually, actually use it.

[Griffin Newman]

I do. And let me say this, I use exclusively Warby Parker as I have for years. They have over 300 retail locations in both the US and Canada. But they also have great app, a great website, virtual try on program. You can sign up for a few, they send you a few for free. You try them on, you send back the one you want. There's a lot of flexibility. You can warby your way. This is a tagline I'm making up Warby your way.

[David Sims]

Warby Parker has over 300 locations to help you find your next pair of glasses. You can also head over to warbyparker.com check right now to try on any pair virtually. That's warvparker.com check warvparker.com check and if.

[Griffin Newman]

People want to flip it Griff style, I'll just say I'm currently rocking the toddy wide frame in Oak barrel.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

And it's cool too because you can.

[David Sims]

See, see if you get glasses. So she gets kidnapped. It's the car, the chase. Right. Or like is there anything in between the kidnapping and the, the murder? I mean the thing in between is what I just mentioned that the, the Jerry essentially losing the lot.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. But then also him coming home with the two bags of groceries and having this sort of processing walking.

[David Sims]

Right. Being like right.

[Griffin Newman]

They've done it happens and you don't.

[Zach Kreger]

And then rehearsing the phone call which is so good.

[Griffin Newman]

So incredible. I think that's why and fully as.

[David Sims]

Speaking to you sociopathic.

[Griffin Newman]

I think that was a Macy idea I saw.

[David Sims]

Oh really?

[Griffin Newman]

That he was like this is a fun beat.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And yes. The moment where he's, he's practicing it. You're like this guy's gotten the performance pretty close.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And then the hard switch when he gets to the receptionist or the like it's great. It's so.

[Zach Kreger]

I also love the framing of that shot. We're not in the kitchen with him. We're like kind of in the hallway and we've Got the banister in the foreground. And it's just like. It's voyeuristic. You know, we're just watching. I don't know. I love that choice.

[David Sims]

It's.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like the fucking taxi driver payphone scene.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Where you're like. You feel like you shouldn't get the camera away.

[Griffin Newman]

You're seeing something uncomfortable and embarrassing and too intimate.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And then that's one of the cuts to black, I think fades to black is after Y hold. And then it goes to.

[Zach Kreger]

And then we go to the night driving.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, then it cuts right to Paul Bunyan at night and the night drive.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

Amazing. And this is like the biggest set piece of the whole movie, arguably, you know, and it's so. So well done.

[Ben Hosley]

Done.

[Griffin Newman]

So we've gotten into this argument in the past about the. The Frances McDormand winning for lead, William H. Macy being nominated for supporting.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

The actual affront is the Macy being nominated for supporting.

[David Sims]

It's not. McDormand is clearly the lead. It's just. It's just Macy is probably. I mean, I have him in lead. He's the lead. I can sort of hear an argument for. Like, everyone else is kind of supporting, but he's in a lot of the movies got.

[Griffin Newman]

I believe he has 30 seconds more screen time than she does. I always question the way that people fucking stopwatch these things.

[David Sims]

Those stats are a little weird, but.

[Griffin Newman]

They at least have basically equal screen time, if not slightly more towards him. It obviously becomes her story, and she's the one who's sort of driving the plot. But I also think one of the things that's so interesting with the Cohens is that very few of their movies are really driven by one character. They are almost always plotted either thematically or by an event. Like, the event is sort of the thing you're following, and then you're attaching yourself to different characters in the arc of.

[Zach Kreger]

Yeah, I can think of a lot of counter examples to that.

[Griffin Newman]

Lebowski's obviously character driven. Llewyn Davis's true grit, I would say, is with Matty. Serious man is a lot of their crime movie, I guess, in particular.

[David Sims]

Yeah, but what's your point about Macy? Like, that he should have been nominated in Where'd they.

[Griffin Newman]

No, it's just interesting that we're.

[Zach Kreger]

The cynical calculation of, like.

[Griffin Newman]

Cynical calculation.

[Zach Kreger]

Let's do it.

[Griffin Newman]

It was more that. I'm just clocking. We're getting to the final shootout, which means. Or. Or what you described as the big.

[David Sims]

Indie Spirits put him in lead.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Basically. No one else. Even the gold globes didn't nominate him.

[Griffin Newman]

And SAG put him in supporting.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So, yeah, I mean, I think his nomination was like a mild and welcome surprise at the Oscars were because he was not a very well known actor at that point. But obviously he's so good in the film. But it does cost Buscemi. That's his maybe, like, most obvious chance at an Oscar nod before Ghost World, which is.

[Griffin Newman]

Which he's also stumped for. I just think he remains one of the most egregious, like, never get up.

[David Sims]

With the academy guys.

[Griffin Newman]

I write them a letter every day and they tell me to stop. But, yeah, no, it's just fascinating to think about how deeply we've gotten to the movie and that we're getting. You're, like, at the big set piece and she has still not been introduced. True that. It is like 30 minutes on the dot after the big blow up.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

This scene of once again clumsiness. Buscemi trying to pull the move of flashing the money in the wallet.

[Zach Kreger]

So stupid, so unnecessary.

[David Sims]

It took me so long to clock that that's what's happening.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And then the way the cop, like, flips the wallet shut. But, yeah, I mean, but I think Buscemi just thinks that's the only way Bishemi's stupid. The stupidest thing he does, we don't see, which is that he brags to the guy in the bar that he killed people. And, like, the way the guy describes what he was doing, you're like, I can exactly pick picture Carl, like, popping off and essentially being like, well, there's. There's a trail of dead people behind me that you don't want to with me.

[Griffin Newman]

But a stupid calculation he makes is the moment where the cop says, what's this? If Busemi is savvy in any way, he goes, oh, sorry.

[David Sims]

Right, sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, he acts like it was truly an accident rather than like, he quadruples down. He keeps rebuilding. Meeting. What if we just settle it here in Brainerd?

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And the guy is just not having it at all. And he's making it worse and worse.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I think there's no way out of it. They have a woman in the back seat.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Like, if she was in the trunk.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Do they get away with it? Do they? Basically.

[Zach Kreger]

I mean, he was still going to get in trouble because he's still going to try and bribe the stupid cop. And that cop was obviously not going to have it. And he was going to. He was to.

[David Sims]

Going.

[Zach Kreger]

Going to get. Someone was going to get shot no matter what, whether she's in the trunk or in the back seat.

[Griffin Newman]

This is what we keep circling back to. There are so many unforced errors in this movie, and yet the characters are making errors on top of each other. Where even if you're like, well, if they had just done this one thing differently, that's not accounting for the five things they did around it.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

I mean, if he just put the tags on the car.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Zach Kreger]

Everything would have been different, you know, and that's the first thing he should have done.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It's crazy. He should put the tags on the car so they kill the cop. The thing I think about the most is the little spurt of blood.

[Griffin Newman]

It's so onto Buscemi's face.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Just the little, like, pathetic fountain.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Like, it's more than nothing. But it's not like an insane geyser. It's just this, like. I just think about it all the time.

[Zach Kreger]

I also always think about the way the cop falls out of frame.

[David Sims]

The way. The way they. You see him for one second, his head covered in blood, but, like, literally, one second. Yes.

[Zach Kreger]

Yeah. He falls back on his knees, away from the camera.

[David Sims]

It's so.

[Zach Kreger]

It's sickening.

[Griffin Newman]

We talk about in the Blood simple episode, but they said so much of their, like, genesis of that movie is feeling like deaths in movies are always too clean. Like, even when they're bloody and messy, they're bloody and messy in the sort of, like, operatic way. And they're like. Death is, like, really clumsy and it, like, takes longer and you just have these sort of, like, odd embarrassments.

[Ben Hosley]

Right? Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But, yes. How quickly they just. Just get themselves into, like, a perfect knot of. Well, now there's a dead cop. Now there's a guy driving by. There's an eyewitness.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

There's, like, no way out of this.

[David Sims]

Without just more murder and insanity.

[Zach Kreger]

They're kind of doing what William H. Macy's doing. They just kept digging deeper and deeper and deeper into trouble.

[David Sims]

And essentially it's sort of like, we'll figure it out mentality. But, yeah, the people see them. That the shot of the guy's face, like, you know, is so good.

[Zach Kreger]

He looks like Louis Anderson.

[David Sims]

I always think about Louis kind of look like Louie Anderson. He's got a big orange coat on or something. It's kind of like a bright coat on.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And it's just. I mean, I just, again, just Imagine being in the theater in 96 and like the shot and the cut to black.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And just that like wave of like laughter and craziness that must have gone through the audience. So like, what the fuck just happened?

[Griffin Newman]

I feel. Feel like we talked about this and David and I being a little younger than you, Zach, that like for both of us, we think our first exposure to the Coens was watching Billy Crystal edit himself into the Oscar montage this year into Fargo and like sitting in a room of grownups laughing at it and both being like, what is this movie? It's got like broad comedy tone and it's about murder.

[David Sims]

Murder.

[Griffin Newman]

And I have a very similar memory of this movie playing in theaters in New York for so long and constantly walking by. When my parents would walk me to school, a theater that had the poster up and being so confused by the needlepoint poster and being like, what is this movie that has this sort of like cutesy depiction?

[David Sims]

What he did was crime. He. He's the other Lou. Right, Louis.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Talking to. In. In that first scene in the. The morning sickness.

[David Sims]

And then he's talking to Bumi in the car.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

They're like talking to each other.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he's playing pretty fast and loose with the narrative there.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then it's back to him talking to Jerry Maguire. And you know, there's some great stuff here.

[Griffin Newman]

All of that to say, like, our exposure to it was first the pre digested version of like, we all know how funny far go is versus. I wish I could have had the purity of being able to see this in theaters, like opening weekend and being like, what the is this? No one has ever done something like this before.

[David Sims]

Well, it's a good movie. What happens after?

[Griffin Newman]

No, I basically right. The body lying in the snow goes to go to Marge, we go to March, we go to her. Getting to call in bed.

[Zach Kreger]

The camera needs a chance jump.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Prowler needs a jump.

[Griffin Newman]

But the ducks, the painting supplies, the camera tracking over to them in bed. And her being woken up by the.

[David Sims]

Most like, you know, incredible introduction to a character. First this.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

But then her. The breakfast, you know, you gotta have breakfast is important.

[Griffin Newman]

I gotta go.

[David Sims]

Him being like, gotta have a breakfast. Is another acknowledgment of her pregnancy.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Like, I don't think he's just hitting that so hard, cuz he's her loving husband. He's like, no, you need to eat like you're pregnant.

[Griffin Newman]

But he knows if he said it that way, she would push back on the Idea that she's vulnerable. So.

[David Sims]

But then like. Yeah, and then just. I'm not sure I 100% agree with you on your police work there, Lou, where you're like, he's such an idiot. But she would never chew him out. She's being so nice about it. You know, just the. Her whole approach, her whole matter of factness about the homicide. This execution style deal, like the way she's talking about this horrible thing we.

[Griffin Newman]

Just witnessed, that's what like, like her, her sense of politeness does not override her doing the correct or responsible thing. Right. She's not going to defer to this guy out of being polite. She finds the most polite way to push back and explain her own theory. I also just love the sort of like just get breakfast out of the way vibes, but also them having breakfast in like pitch black darkness. That feeling of like when you are awake too early doing a thing.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

As if you're like eating before like a red eye flight.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah, yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

I also like that, you know, she gets there, she hasn't seen the, the dead trooper.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Zach Kreger]

She just sees the two bodies there in the. By the upside down car. And she's, she's good. She already can like put together exactly what happened.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

And she's right, you know, we got a. We got a shooting over there and then we got to drive by and they come here. We get the execution type deal. Yeah, it's.

[David Sims]

She's great. But then she has the little. And looks like a perfectly nice guy or what. Right. She has the little aside where she's like, she's acknowledging that this is a tragic situation. Yeah, she's not blase exactly. She's just even handed or what? Like she's just kind of like even temper.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's like what she's getting at with the last line, her last lines of the movie, which is just like.

[David Sims]

What could possibly, possibly have been worth all this? Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this is. Yeah, in a way, like they should maybe. I mean this is a cop killing. Like this is crazy.

[Griffin Newman]

It's crazy.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

And it's odd that she, she didn't have a relationship with the dead cop. Like that is never acknowledged, you know, like this is a tiny town, this is a small police community. You know, an officer is gunned down in cold blood and they don't spend any time time talking about that.

[Griffin Newman]

Although I guess it's basically he's from a neighboring precinct and got shut down in the sort of like liminal space between the two cities.

[David Sims]

They might explain it, but he wrote dlr and that means dealer plates. And, you know, I guess she finds the call girls first, right? The first thing they find where she's like, oh, that's a good lead. Is. Is that, like, two guys checked into a motel with call girls in a sier. In a burnt umber Sierra. Yeah, a Sierra is an Oldsmobile. I had to check. I don't actually. I didn't actually know what it was. They say Sierra so many times.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

It was my first car.

[David Sims]

Your first car was a Sierra?

[Marie Barty Salinas]

Was a cutless Sierra? It was a hand down from my grandpa. Burnt umber, but it was not umber. It was a dark blue.

[Griffin Newman]

How are the tags? Interior.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

How are the tags?

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

Regular license plates.

[David Sims]

Thank God.

[Zach Kreger]

Well, then that's the answer, Ben. Jesus.

[David Sims]

Okay. How'd it drive this year?

[Marie Barty Salinas]

It was a fantastic car.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

I loved it. And unfortunately got into an accident and it got totaled.

[David Sims]

Oh, that is too bad.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

It drove great. It was a V6. It had some power to it. And it just was so purposely designed for, like, an old man in this really lovely way. I had, like, light lights built into the rear view mirror so you could, like, you know, look at your map.

[David Sims]

Oh, very nice.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

Or it was also helpful for rolling a blunt in the car at night.

[David Sims]

That Sierra saw some blunts.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

Yes, it did.

[David Sims]

Yeah. She interviews the ladies.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, no, before that. You cut to Jerry meeting with the father in law, and Stan Grossman loves strategizing the. The ransom payoff S. Grossman's a great character. So good.

[David Sims]

Yeah, that guy's a. That guy's clearly a smart guy.

[Zach Kreger]

Yeah. The smartest guy in the movie.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

In a way, that's exactly who Jerry wants to be.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, even more than he wants to be hard press now. Like, that's the guy he aspires to be who's just, like, solid as a rock, responsible, has the respect of other men. He doesn't need to be like, the king of ship Mountain.

[David Sims]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

But that's when they bring up, like, how's Scotty doing?

[David Sims]

Right? And he's like, right, Scotty? Yeah, I'll talk to him.

[Griffin Newman]

And I think he scene where he.

[David Sims]

Tries to talk to him is so miserable.

[Griffin Newman]

I think he's doing a fairly good job of keeping a brave face on it. And yet every single thing that Scotty's bringing up is clearly something that he hasn't considered until this moment where, like, Scotty's first question is, what do you think they're doing with her right now? And his Response is nothing. These guys, they just want money, right? Which is him, like, knowing these guys are just waiting to be paid off.

[David Sims]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

But yet the more Scotty digs into it, the more he's like, you don't know these guys. They could be doing anything to her.

[Zach Kreger]

But I don't get the sense that that is really occurring to him. He doesn't. He doesn't seem to be that alarmed. He's more alarmed that Scotty could. Could, you know, let things slip to his wife's friends.

[David Sims]

You know what I mean? Yes, that's true. He actually is trying to maintain opsec.

[Griffin Newman]

He also thinks that, like, Scotty is worrying over nothing. I think he believes what he's saying.

[David Sims]

Jerry's right. Jerry always thinks he's in control of every situation, that he's clearly lost totally.

[Griffin Newman]

He's like, these three people are going to sit in a room together watching TV until they get the check and they'll bring her back.

[David Sims]

Never. The only time he ever says anything is in the first scene where he says, I'm in a bit of trouble, right? And then he won't go into it. But, like, those calls where the guys on the phone being like, well, if you don't send me these numbers, I'm gonna. He's just like, yeah, real shirt. Yeah, yeah, I'll fax it over to, you know, like, obviously, you can tell he's stressed out. He never says, like, God, what the fuck am I gonna do?

[Griffin Newman]

My favorite moment is when he goes, like, I sent them in the mail. They should be arriving. And the guy goes, that may be so, but I'm letting you know I'm.

[David Sims]

I'm out of patience.

[Griffin Newman]

Don't receive them by tomorrow. I'm filing charges. Like, even if they're in transit and they'll arrive two days later, your luck has run out. Your time has run out. And his response to it is still so contained.

[David Sims]

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Griffin Newman]

That is a moment where you'd expect them to give him another sort of like, ice scraper meltdown.

[David Sims]

Well, do a damn lock count. That's him melting down.

[Zach Kreger]

No, but he does melt down after that Griffin. Cuz then we cut to that wide shot through the window, and he grabs his keyboard, landed on the desk. He does.

[Griffin Newman]

You're like, you're right. But he. But he stays calm on the phone. Yes, yes, right. He's still trying to confidence his way through it.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

So then, right, it's Norm comes to bring her lunch.

[Zach Kreger]

You know, there was a scene that they filmed that they didn't put in the movie of Norm ice fishing. And they cut it out. Or so I. So I have been told. I don't know if that's true or not, but I don't know why they would shoot it. I think it probably makes sense that we don't.

[David Sims]

They do say, like, I thought you were going up ice fishing at Mill Lake or whatever. Like. Yeah, like. And obviously he needs his nightcrawlers and that does. Norm is like the salt of the fucking earth. And everyone does seem to respect the hell out of this guy. And then, like, the touch that he paints is just like the perfect final touch to this character of, like, he's got a sensitive, like, artist side.

[Griffin Newman]

You know what I love, too, when they're talking about. I. I forget the name, but the competition of the other person who's in the running for the stamp.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I forget his name.

[Griffin Newman]

They don't talk them. And even Marge is like, well, good. He's talented, but you're more talented.

[Zach Kreger]

Right. Like, you're better than them. They're good, but you're better than them.

[Griffin Newman]

You're right. It's the circle back to they're good, but you're better. She doesn't want to put the other person down. She just believes in him so deeply and.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

This notion that. It's like he comes and eats lunch with her every day.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

In the office.

[Zach Kreger]

He knows everybody in the building.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Which does sort of speak to. Maybe he used to work there. I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

Again, doesn't really matter. They such a welcome. Are. There's welcome seasoning for her character as well. Obviously.

[Griffin Newman]

And that's when Luke comes in with the lead of the two women.

[David Sims]

Right, right. And she talks to the ladies and they're so funny.

[Griffin Newman]

One of the two who has no idea.

[David Sims]

Circumcised.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's that one who has no other screen credits.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Was basically a dialect coach on this movie.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[David Sims]

That makes sense. Like the one on the left.

[Zach Kreger]

It's gotta be the one on the left.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

I think was like a local theater actress, but she was the one. I don't know if they hired her to do this first and then cast her in the role or vice versa. But she said, like, in particular, McDormand credits her.

[David Sims]

Larissa Cockernot with cracking the credible name.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And Melissa Peterman, who is the other one, is like a. You know, has been in a zillion things. Things. She was on Young Sheldon for a zillion years.

[Griffin Newman]

Hey, Nice work if you can get it.

[David Sims]

She's a main cast member. Yeah, I know she's recurring. I take it back.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, huge difference thing.

[Zach Kreger]

These two who are, you know, I presume, sex workers, because, you know.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Zach Kreger]

At least that's a safe assumption. But they have a completely different attitude. These women seem untraumatized and like. Like this, all in all seems like a good experience.

[David Sims]

Yeah. They don't seem to think they're, like, in trouble for, like, you know, patronizing these men or anything like that.

[Griffin Newman]

The third woman is unquestionably a sex worker.

[David Sims]

And she is like.

[Zach Kreger]

Does not love this. Where he's like, you find this line of work interesting? And she's like, the fuck you talking about?

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

She's over the job.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Every other time I watch this, I oscillate back and forth and thinking, are these two women sex workers or not?

[David Sims]

I think they are because he knows a place they can get laid or whatever. They're kind of like their girls who at least are like, you know, whatever. The bartender knows some gals and they're.

[Griffin Newman]

Interested so blasey say about everything right. There is like a lack of, like. It's not just that they're not worn down by the thing in the way that the third woman is, but they also just don't kind of seem canny about anything. Like they just feel like they just go out and they do what they want to do.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

I love when the one is like, go Bears. She's talking about her high school.

[David Sims]

Go Bears.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

She rocks.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

We also see them arrive at the lake house and Jeff Genie running around with the hood over her head.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

Hands tied behind her back.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

This is the scene where Carl, it really does show his hand that he is also a psychopath. You know, Gare's not laughing. Carl thinks this is the funniest in the world. I mean, that is just actual cruelty that he's displaying.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Here's the thing I think the Cohen's are about.

[David Sims]

I think Garrett doesn't find anything funny.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

Like, he. His brain is like, kind of like there's just like.

[Zach Kreger]

He's a lizard.

[David Sims]

Right. There's nothing. No, nothing reading in there. That's why Carl cannot make conversation with him.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Like, he is capable of having sex. So he sort of like, has some, like, animalistic function.

[Griffin Newman]

Doesn't seem to enjoy it even as much as he's like.

[Zach Kreger]

That's why it's so interesting when he cares. He seems offended that Jerry wants to kidnap his own wife.

[David Sims]

It's just.

[Zach Kreger]

That's interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I want to circle back to this because I, I I'm thinking about you calling that out, and I'm like, is he offended as much as he's just kind of intrigued by that being an interesting human behavior, you know, he clearly disapproves. There's a value judgment on it. But I'm also like, the only thing that activates him is, like, what he is perceiving as a level of cruelty that he seems unfamiliar with, if that makes sense. Like, this guy is desensitized to violence. And yet this sort of alarms him as just, like, that's fucked up.

[Zach Kreger]

He's like, what is the world coming to?

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Everything else, he's, like, numbing. And that's sort of just like, he cannot ignore.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[Zach Kreger]

This is like his Tommy Lee Jones in no country sort of, like, conundrum where he's like, I don't even know if I belong in this world.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's also, like, one of the things that the Coen brothers are as good at as anyone else is. In almost every scene, every character is ostensibly sort of focused primarily on something other than their main, like, textual objective in the scene, if that makes sense. Sense.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, I think they're really smart about, like, constructing environments for really interesting behavioral performances.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Where even when Lou comes in with the lead, Marge is clearly, like, you know, on her game.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Seizing the opportunity. But also her priority is, I, I gotta finish this lunch.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

I'm eating these French fries.

[David Sims]

She needs her Arby's. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And the same with, like, them watching TV while doing Jerry's Wife is Running Around. John Carroll lynch, in some interviews, said that the only direction he really remembers the Cohen's giving him was in one of the scenes. Maybe it's this one. He was paying too much attention to what Lou and Marge were saying. And Joel came up to him and said, like, you don't care. Just finish your meal.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[Zach Kreger]

I love that you're not ignoring this.

[Griffin Newman]

But, like, this doesn't matter to you, right?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

The guy's shoveling his front side, his front driver driveway. When the, when the cops interviewing him about the interaction at the bar with Carl, you know, it's like that's his focus right now.

[Griffin Newman]

That is a perfect example to me of a scene where when I am watching it, I'm like, this guy is the best guy in the movie for these three minutes.

[David Sims]

He's unbelievable. And of course, the most important thing in that movie is these guys who are wearing spacesuits yes. Being like, it's getting colder. Like, like it's going to be colder tomorrow. They had the weather combo with like, oh, yeah, there's a front coming in. I'm like, guys, it looks like it's minus 40 degrees.

[Griffin Newman]

Get a clear look at his face. He looks like Kenny McCormick. He is so naturalistic that it almost feels like they like hidden camera, an actual citizen. This guy I dug in a little bit is like a Minnesota theater legend who started like the most reputable theater company.

[David Sims]

Oh, nice.

[Griffin Newman]

But I think his only other one, one other film credit, but I think was sort of the activation point for a lot of the local actors they hired in the film and just kills this one scene.

[Zach Kreger]

He kills it.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

So I called it in like, like his story. It's like he's giving this like, valuable. Like he's like a witness, really important.

[Zach Kreger]

Information, the whole case.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

And he gets through and he's like.

[Zach Kreger]

So I called him.

[David Sims]

The guy's like, yeah, well, it's probably nothing anyway, I guess it'll be cold here soon in this frozen hole.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

It's almost presented as boring.

[David Sims]

Kind of like a boring.

[Griffin Newman]

But like when the two women at the bar won't stop harping on how funny looking Buscemi was, it's like, well, but they also had like a very intimate experience.

[David Sims]

But this guy's also like, yeah, he's just kind of fucking funny. I mean, what they're trying to say is like, he looks like a little weasel. Like, what do you want from him?

[Griffin Newman]

How do you define this guy? Other than that he is unusual. If he walked into a room, you would immediately, and I want to be clear, he looks hot.

[David Sims]

He has been styled to look like a weasel. It's just that you can get that guy to, you know, to a weasel faster than some actors.

[Griffin Newman]

Buscemi, I cite a lot as one of the prime examples of like, people who are cast to be ugly in movies. If you see them in person, you're like, they are so striking.

[David Sims]

Striking and good looking guys.

[Griffin Newman]

Because anyone who registers on camera is like innately kind of captivating looking, even if they're unconventional.

[David Sims]

But if you see him in. What's that movie he made when he was really young? That's Tree's Lounge. Well, he's. No, he's amazing in Trees Lounge, but he's obviously playing. Playing kind of a rough customer in Trees. That guy's had a couple drinks over the years. I don't know if you noticed that.

[Griffin Newman]

About him, but like New York stories.

[David Sims]

He'S New York Stories is an example. But what's in the Soup? The movie with Seymour Castell. Great little movie. Like, he's so cute in that movie. He's adorable.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's right. What they're really speaking to more than anything is like, look, he doesn't look like anyone else. He is unique.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And also this guy's energy is just weird. It's what you said. He's just like. There's something unsettling and weaselly about this guy.

[David Sims]

Yes. Ben, you keep coming in and out of the. The zoom and it always jump scares me. It's so funny. No one's watching the zoom, obviously, so it's just me that cares about this. So we're gonna cut that out of the podcast because who cares?

[Griffin Newman]

And keep it in, double it.

[David Sims]

It's just me that cares about this. So we're gonna cut that out of the podcast because who cares?

[Griffin Newman]

Also, if you could edit in a little bit of ice clinking. It feels like it's been a while. Maybe it's another good moment to place it in.

[David Sims]

Oh, thankfully it's melted after. This is my canny key, I'm saying.

[Griffin Newman]

But we have it on the soundboard.

[David Sims]

Do we have more? More on Mike Yanaguita?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I got an hour to do it.

[David Sims]

Well, we're not going to do an hour, but do we have more on Mike Yannagita that we want to explore?

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, Steve park at this point in time was most known for do the Right Thing and In Living Color.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

He's great in do the Right Thing.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

He talks about after this, he did a guest arc on Friends, experienced an incident of absurd racism behind the scenes scenes. Wrote an op ed letter about it that I think was published in the LA Times in 1997.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

And says that he was like soft blackballed from the industry for a number of years. And you look and like the credits dry up for a while.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is absurd because you watch this and you're like, this guy should have become the single most in demand character actor for the next 10 years. And it's so good. He's kind of on ice. And it takes until the mid 2010s that people start being like, why does no one hire that guy? Like, it's part of the persistence of Fargo is, I think when people rewatch it, they're just like, no one's using this dude. And obviously the Cohen's use him again really well. In Serious man.

[David Sims]

They do. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And then the final Segment of.

[Zach Kreger]

I'm embarrassed to say that I am just now putting together that. That's him.

[Ben Hosley]

That's him.

[Griffin Newman]

He's the dad of the student. Yes.

[Zach Kreger]

I did not realize that.

[Griffin Newman]

And also, we were making, like, a.

[Zach Kreger]

Weird joke when you said he. When you quoted that line from Serious man, but, yeah, okay, gotcha.

[Griffin Newman]

He's. He's like the secret sauce of the final segment of French Dispatch, too.

[David Sims]

Your favorite movie.

[Griffin Newman]

A movie I like a tremendous amount. But he's, like, transcendently good in it, right?

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

It's weird to me that he didn't realize that he was funny in that scene and that when Ethan told him that that scene slayed, he was like, but it's so sad.

[David Sims]

I think he's in that character, right? He's like, I am playing this truly sad guy who's. Well, I guess the question is, does Steven.

[Zach Kreger]

He's explosively crying, saying, you're such a super lady. Like, that's funny, you know? Yeah, no, I'm not with you on that.

[David Sims]

He's such a super lady. But, like, that's.

[Griffin Newman]

I think.

[David Sims]

I guess my question. Stephen Park. No, he's lying. I guess he probably was told, like, this is not true.

[Zach Kreger]

That's a great question.

[David Sims]

I don't actually know.

[Griffin Newman]

I think he's trying.

[David Sims]

Does it affect your performance?

[Griffin Newman]

Play the guy with, like, a level of psychological realism, even though it's in a weird tone and the language is obviously so specific, and there's no way to say without sounding a little goofy. I think he's trying to avoid being condescending to the character.

[David Sims]

Yeah, he's great. I mean, he does a great job.

[Griffin Newman]

In his mind, he's like, I'm not trying to make this scene funny. But of course, the sadder he plays it, the funnier it gets. Like, it is that you always talk about the fucking interview you had with Christoph Waltz promoting Big Eyes, where you were like, so you play a bad guy in this movie?

[David Sims]

And he's like, I might disagree with you on that point. And I was like, Jesus, I have 20 minutes with you. We're gonna fight about whether you're fucking.

[Griffin Newman]

Vill this contentious standoff. But you're like, no.

[David Sims]

The problem was that 10 minutes in, he was like, yeah, you're probably right. And I was like, well, then why'd you fight me on it, Waltz? He was like a cat playing with a mouse. Yeah, I was just this tired little guy, you know, with a low little notepad. And he was clearly just like, I'm gonna fuck with this guy. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Anyway, I. I just think, right. Like, he is a guy who is innately funny.

[David Sims]

Stephen Park.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And, like, has a comedy background and knows how to be funny. And they probably cast him for that reason, where they're like, if this guy plays it straight, it will still be funny versus hiring a dramatic actor who might just make it uncomfortable.

[David Sims]

It's a scene I sometimes struggle to watch. It is so uncomfortable. Yes, it is sad. The way she reacts to. Not before he's crying. To him moving next to her.

[Griffin Newman]

That is the roughest moment in the scene for me. It's like, it gets so much worse. And then it gets even worse in retrospect when you find out he was lying. And yet the absolute pit of despair.

[David Sims]

Flimsiness of him being like, how about I sit next to you? And her being like, oh, I. You know, wouldn't. You know, I can then have to turn to look at you.

[Griffin Newman]

Just immediately, a bad move. She's going out of her way to try to find the most polite reasoning for why she's putting a wall down the thing, too.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

That would, like, with finding out later. It's so insane that he is dressed up and wore a suit. There's something about that, to me, that, like, stuck out.

[David Sims]

But she's dressed up like they are. I feel like they are kind of.

[Zach Kreger]

Like, well, the rad.

[David Sims]

You want to dress up for the rad.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

I guess it's radon, you know, but.

[David Sims]

He is living with his mom, so it's, like, tough to imagine him, like, at home, like, putting on a. Putting on the suit. Yeah.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

It makes it so much more sad.

[David Sims]

How old is Marge? Is she, like, 32? Like, how old is she? Like, she's not 36 is what.

[Zach Kreger]

The number that I like, but I don't.

[David Sims]

That's.

[Zach Kreger]

That might be too old. But you know what's really interesting, though, is in the phone call with her friend where she's recounting the. The encounter with Mike. Her friend describes that he was really pestering her. Meaning the. The woman that Mike said was his wife.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Zach Kreger]

And it's like, that is be back in 1987. They didn't call it.

[Griffin Newman]

What?

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

That.

[David Sims]

Yeah, he was being.

[Zach Kreger]

And they. They use their. Minnesota. Nice. Yeah. Really bothering her. Really pestering her. And it's like, dude, what we're seeing is the first step or of Mike.

[David Sims]

Stalking Marge, possibly getting kind of obsessed.

[Griffin Newman]

With that and the fact that he's undeterred by the fact that he knows she's married to a guy.

[David Sims]

He also Knows and is seven months pregnant. Right. Yeah, right.

[Griffin Newman]

Like it is the Hyper Fixation.

[David Sims]

Why did she.

[Zach Kreger]

There's a whole nother movie here. I mean, there's a whole fascinating movie.

[David Sims]

He calls her because she was on tv. Right. Like he calls her because he saw her on television. Yeah, right, right, right, right.

[Zach Kreger]

Which is also so great.

[David Sims]

Well, how the heck are you?

[Zach Kreger]

It's like such an insanely obnoxious question to ask at 10:45 at night.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And also when you're in the middle of like fucking investigating a triple homicide.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

So 96. Frances McDormand was 39.

[Ben Hosley]

Right, right.

[David Sims]

So when she made the movie, she's about 38 or whatever. Yeah, yeah, that track. She's in her late 30s. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

About 20 years since they've all graduated.

[David Sims]

Right. So. But yes, it's not that meeting Mike makes her kind of reevaluate that first interview she did with Jerry. It's her hearing on the phone that he, you know, lied to her. That does seem to spur her to go back to Jerry and kind of press him a little harder.

[Griffin Newman]

And I think.

[David Sims]

And Jerry's a bad liar. Mike's a better liar than Jerry. Jerry is a worst liar.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah, right.

[Zach Kreger]

It's also interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

She.

[Zach Kreger]

She does go back and say, how do you know? But she doesn't seem to clock that he's a liar until he just completely disintegrates in that scene.

[David Sims]

He disintegrates under very little pressure.

[Zach Kreger]

Wasn't like, I think this guy lied to me. You know what I mean?

[David Sims]

Yes. She's initially basically just like, well, maybe the car went missing and you didn't clock it.

[Griffin Newman]

Essentially after the mic scene on this watch, I went back, rewound and rewatched the first Jerry Marge scene. Cuz I was like, I now want to see what she wasn't picking up on with him. And I think it's less that Mike makes her realize he could have been lying and more that Mike kind of reminds me her that everyone in this culture is putting such performative layer on type of all of their social interactions.

[David Sims]

Right, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That she's just like, well, everyone's lying all the time.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I need to like look deeper into their personality and the circumstances of their life. Because even when she goes in to see Jerry for the second time, she clocks the photo of his wife on the. On the desk. She's just like not really considering all the angles of who he is as guy versus what he's saying to her. And she's obviously not seeing him as a suspect. The first time, she's just like, there's so many disparate elements here, and I'm just trying to trace them. Where the fuck do the cars come from? Right.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And in the first scene, he's not a good liar, but the only thing he really fucks up is he takes, like, 10 seconds to answer one question. There's the moment I'm trying to remember what the question is, where she asks him something, something, and he just locks in eye contact with her, kind of pleasantly smiling for like, 10 seconds.

[Zach Kreger]

It's because she says Brainerd.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Zach Kreger]

And. And he knows because he's already had the conversation with Carl, who said three people in Brainerd.

[David Sims]

Right, Right. So it has been shed, Jerry. Blood has been shed.

[Griffin Newman]

And he's doing the math of trying to decide how much do I pretend I know.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

How much can I get away with? I. How dumb can I play here?

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And even so, she kind of takes him on face value, because I think, once again, she lives in a world where everyone is kind of putting on airs all the time.

[David Sims]

No, no, I. I hear you.

[Griffin Newman]

They're always sort of covering their real feelings and masking them. The second time, he so immediately drops.

[David Sims]

The COVID He's so fucked anyway, at that point. Like, he is, like.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And she doesn't know how deeply he's involved in all of this, but knows he's covering up something and it might help her get to it, that the second she starts pushing, pushing him, and he starts being like, I don't appreciate your rudeness. That's what really triggers her in my mind is her being like, if this guy's dropping the politeness this quickly, but he's 10 times guiltier than I thought.

[David Sims]

Okay, no, here's the thing.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes, she. She.

[David Sims]

Yes, she busts William H. Macy wide open, and he runs away. He's fleeing the interval. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

He thinks he can just drive away.

[David Sims]

And that means that, yes, you can.

[Zach Kreger]

He's not under arrest.

[David Sims]

No, he's not. But he is fleeing the interview. Interview.

[Griffin Newman]

But that's also. That immediately makes them look even 100 times more.

[David Sims]

That doesn't get her to the cabin. And there's things that happen in this movie that we don't see. They kill his wife.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

We don't. Ah. She starts screaming, you know.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Like, that's. That's the end of that. We never see it. We don't know how that transpired.

[Zach Kreger]

And rewatching it this time, this was the first time. I can't believe I've seen this movie countless times. It was the first time I noticed the torrent of blood on the stove.

[David Sims]

It's.

[Zach Kreger]

Yeah, it's awful.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

And like, everything disintegrates off screen, essentially. You know what I mean? Like, much like the move they pull in no country of just, like, you can figure it out.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, it's. I feel like they talk about this, but their process of writing together, they're like, if the idea of writing a scene doesn't seem exciting to us, okay, just move on. Then you just don't need to do it in the movie. Then, like, what's the next scene that's more interesting? And how do we get whatever information we need across in a different context?

[David Sims]

She doesn't find them because of Macy. She finds them because she essentially is like, well, before I leave, I'll just kind of drive around those lakes that that guy mentioned. Yeah, from the bar.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And she just fucking drives around and then she sees a burnt sienna and that's it.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And you have that moment.

[David Sims]

It's the most like, sort of caveman detective work.

[Griffin Newman]

Is it Lou, over the radio who's like, margie, be careful. And you do feel that sense of just like, is she really just gonna fucking pull up to the driveway?

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Zach Kreger]

This is the moment where her pregnancy, like, becomes a stage story point for real. It's like, you should not. You are the last person that should go, like, storming into this remote place with murderers.

[Griffin Newman]

Because he says, like, we'll send a couple cars over. And she's just like, I can't blow this.

[David Sims]

Yes. And she. She does a great job. She shoots him in the leg and, like, gets him. I mean, she does crouch him.

[Zach Kreger]

It's amazing. The framing is the same as when that. That man in the red jersey goes running into the tundra away from the upside down car.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Zach Kreger]

And now it's Carl.

[Griffin Newman]

It's the daytime version. Running angle, the exact same movement. And Carl goes for the kill shot. And she does not. She shoots him in the leg. It's a skill shot. She, like, nails it. You see her take her time, line it up.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Fire one bullet and she fires twice.

[Zach Kreger]

She misses the first shot.

[Griffin Newman]

The first shot, but she basically hits.

[David Sims]

It's pretty implausible that she hits him at all. She's, like, shooting with, like, a.29 revolver.

[Griffin Newman]

It's another thing that, like, belies that she is, in fact, she's a little magical, but also that she's like, good, right? You're like, this is someone who's gone through, like, insane firearm training. Has, like, spent time at a shooting range to nail that shot even in two. And also, she's not trying to kill him. She's trying to incapacitate him, which she does.

[Zach Kreger]

She gets him, and then she, you know, off camera, goes out on the lake, cuffs him, brings this wounded man back her car, takes him into custody and drives him into town, seven months pregnant. It's awesome.

[Griffin Newman]

And we don't need to see anything.

[David Sims]

And he's like, I just solved the murder of five people. Five. Six.

[Zach Kreger]

Well, there are six people killed in the movie Five that she knows of.

[David Sims]

Right. So the five are the three. You know, the. The two bystanders and the state trooper. The. The poor guy at the parking garage that Buscemi shoots. Harvey Presnell, who. And then. And then the wife. Oh, sorry. Himself. So, seven.

[Zach Kreger]

Yeah, seven. I forgot about the parking attempt.

[David Sims]

Everyone forgets about the poor parking attendant.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Who just was one parking attendant too many for Carl, I feel like. You know what I mean? Sure. Because, like, the thing with Carl we didn't mention, of course, that, like, when they shoot each other, which rocks so much, like, you know, it's just, you know, open a gate. You know, just him doing that where it's like, the guy could probably just open the gate, but clearly, like, the guy's like, huh? And Carl's, like, shooting him.

[Griffin Newman]

It's the moment the guy said, like.

[Zach Kreger]

Buddy, are you okay? That's what got him shot.

[Griffin Newman]

It is the moment in every Rewatch fucking face where I get so actively annoyed about Busami being robbed of the supporting actor nomination, because I'm just, like, him being able to play peak Buscemi irritation.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

While also playing the, like, I cannot talk. I am bleeding.

[Zach Kreger]

He enters the cabin, he's like, get.

[David Sims]

A load of me. Right?

[Ben Hosley]

It's so good.

[Zach Kreger]

And the way he walks out where he kicks the door open and then stumbles on the step as he's, like, going down into the yard.

[Griffin Newman]

It's amazing, the indignity of him trying to get the paper towels to cover up to stop the bleeding and having the weird scrap stuck to his face with the pattern on it. But I'm like. In that scene with Peter Stormare, he just doesn't cheat at all in terms of how limited this guy's jaw would be at this moment.

[Zach Kreger]

How do you split a car, you dummy?

[David Sims]

Right, Dummy.

[Griffin Newman]

And the feeling that, like, not only can this guy barely speak, but the more he talks, the more pain he's in. And yet he's so annoyed. He's going to keep monologuing. And you see like his eyes going bloodshot as like the longer he's fucking getting to this philosophical argument that he deserves the. The more he's like going white with pain.

[David Sims]

Yes. No, it's. It's wonderful. He never is. He's not even mad that he. He killed her.

[Zach Kreger]

No, no, he doesn't care.

[Griffin Newman]

He just wants the car.

[David Sims]

He just wants the car.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Zach Kreger]

You know what else we didn't talk about is at this point, he's already buried the money and put the world's weakest little marker that is obviously not going to be there tomorrow.

[David Sims]

It'll be like covered with snow immediately.

[Griffin Newman]

Another horrible plan. Another just like poorly thought in the middle of nowhere. Right.

[Zach Kreger]

Just drive like a block away from town, from the house, put it next to tree.

[David Sims]

A tree. Exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

But to your point, even if he makes it out, a confrontation with storm mayor ahead gets the car and is on his way. What are the odds he finds that spot?

[David Sims]

He's going to call the odds that.

[Griffin Newman]

The money is still there. What are the odds he lives for another 12 hours.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Zach Kreger]

Why does he even go to the cabin? Why doesn't he just take the million.

[David Sims]

Dollars and piece out that's actually an exceptionally. I guess he wants the car.

[Zach Kreger]

Or maybe he doesn't want storm air coming after him. He's like, I give this guy 40 grand and then I have one.

[David Sims]

I guess there's. Do we think.

[Zach Kreger]

Doubt he thinks that way.

[Griffin Newman]

Do we think at that moment that he doesn't know that storm mayor killed.

[David Sims]

He doesn't know. Cuz he says what happened? And he's like, ah, she started screaming.

[Griffin Newman]

So he's going back maybe to try. I think.

[David Sims]

I think Zach's right. He's kind of like, I do not want storm air on my ass. That guy's scary. Yes, I'll give him the money. And then.

[Griffin Newman]

And he thinks he can.

[David Sims]

And then they haggle and you're like, stop haggling. Jesus Christ. Give him an.

[Zach Kreger]

Give him the card.

[David Sims]

David.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep, Ben, what's up? We've been doing this Coen Brothers miniseries.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

The.

[David Sims]

The films of the Coen Brothers lot.

[Griffin Newman]

A bag of money Movies in this filmography.

[David Sims]

Sometimes people find a bag of money and it matters to the plot.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a thing Ben talks about a lot. Yes.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

Because for me, I always feel strongly that it's going to all work out.

[Griffin Newman]

That if you found a bag of money, everything would work out for you perfectly. But what you don't talk about is, what are you going to do once it works out perfectly, what are you going to do with that bag of money?

[Marie Barty Salinas]

Oh, I see exactly where you're going with this.

[David Sims]

I'd buy a bunch of clothes.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, but here's the thing, Ben.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes?

[Griffin Newman]

What if you want to preserve that bag, I'm saying, why drop a fortune on basics when you don't have to, right? What if it's possible to get the best of both worlds? Quince has the good stuff. Hi. Quality fabrics, classic fits and lightweight layers for warm weather. All at prices that make sense. Prices that even someone who didn't find a bag of money in the woods.

[David Sims]

I love quints.

[Griffin Newman]

Could. Could handle. David, tell me what you like.

[David Sims]

I just have. Well, I'm mostly, I'm addicted to their polo shirts.

[Griffin Newman]

You're addicted to the polo?

[David Sims]

The flip. Breathable, floating. Because, like, I spend all of summer basically needing to not look like a total piece of garbage at the office, but it's like, you know, 100 billion degrees in New York City. And those quince polos, which are very comfortable but very good looking and very professional looking and very breathable, really hit the spot for me. But they got a lot of great stuff. Got great sweaters and hey, sweater season's on the horizon.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, that's my season.

[David Sims]

So I'm gonna need a couple.

[Griffin Newman]

See, this is the problem.

[David Sims]

Great pants.

[Griffin Newman]

In summer, I'm a sweater. In summer, I. I am a sweater. In the fall, I want to wear sweaters.

[David Sims]

There you go. And you know, they. They work with those artisans. They cut out the middlemen. You know what that's giving you luxury without the markup.

[Griffin Newman]

That's exactly what they do. And here's the thing. They only work with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. You look good, feel good. That's great.

[David Sims]

And, yeah, apparently they've also got bedding and towels. I might want to investigate that next.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

Yeah, they got great swim trunks.

[David Sims]

Yes, they do.

[Griffin Newman]

I'll use those a bunch.

[David Sims]

I have a ton of swimsuits, like, because I swim a lot and I need to add a quint to my.

[Griffin Newman]

Are you still swimming every day?

[David Sims]

It's been a little bit of a struggle in the summer, but come the.

[Zach Kreger]

Fall, I'm going to be doing it.

[David Sims]

Every day again for sure.

[Griffin Newman]

So you. Let's. Let's slap a pair of Quince shorts on your booty. How about that?

[David Sims]

Yes, please. And get started talking about David's booty. I think you should. I think it's time for us to talk about it.

[Griffin Newman]

It's time to talk.

[David Sims]

I've never thought it was a particularly big asset of mine. But you know what? Maybe 2025 is the year of my booty at. Yeah, exactly. Keep it classic and cool with long lasting staples from quint. Go to quint.com check for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

[Griffin Newman]

That's one year.

[David Sims]

That's Q-U I N C E.com check to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quint.com check and indeed that is one year.

[Griffin Newman]

That's one. Now you said there's the moment where he leans in with sort of the shock at Jerry's cruelty in hiring them. Right. When he realizes the plot. The only other moment where Stormare has a really big reaction to something and he underplays it is like when he clocks McDormand. She's been yelling. He can't hear her over the wood chipper. Then he feels her in the peripheral of vision. He turns slowly and he looks to her like a small child who knows that they've just gotten in trouble.

[David Sims]

Right, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

He like plays that one moment with vulnerability where he kind of knows he can't beat this woman.

[David Sims]

Yes. And he knows he's caught, like you said.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And he, he looks, he looks scared and he also looks embarrassed. He looks embarrassed by everything he's done and that she's caught him in this moment not looking cool. And he obviously throws the log at her. Yes, he wants to get away, but.

[David Sims]

Like he's got no chance. He's walking into a leak.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like so apathetic at that point.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

It's the same as again, the parallels of Macy and these guys is the same. They just bad decision compounded on top of bad decision. And it ends with both of them just futilely running for where they don't know.

[David Sims]

You know, just Macy sees the get away. What's he going to do if he gets out that motel window? Like, right? Yeah, yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

You're going to get caught somewhere else. It's wild. I don't have that interpretation, Griffin. I don't, I don't see his expression at the wood chipper as like shame and embarrassment. I see it as like, oh, there's another person here, you know, the lizard continues.

[Griffin Newman]

It is just that there is a.

[Zach Kreger]

Moment where he, he shows a little inner life when he's watching the soap opera and the woman says, I'm pregnant.

[David Sims]

Yes. And he, he actually reacts.

[Zach Kreger]

He looks genuinely engaged in surprise.

[David Sims]

He is. And it is. You're right. It's the only moment he actually seems like to have a human understanding of emotions.

[Zach Kreger]

I can't believe she's pregnant and she didn't tell him.

[Griffin Newman]

Even if he's not embarrassed, he is so unflappable in every other moment where he is confronted with Jaws of Violence. Right.

[David Sims]

I mean, obviously, the entire. Again, I try to think of this entire audience being like, there's a foot in the wood chipper. Obviously, it became the butt of a million jokes.

[Griffin Newman]

Another thing where I knew. Watching this movie for the first time, you're getting to the iconic wood chipper versus that just being. Being like, what the.

[David Sims]

He says it in Monsters, Inc. I think about that all the time. He says it. Shammy's character says, I'll feed you into a wood chipper to somebody. And wood chipper is part of Monsters.

[Griffin Newman]

I swear I have it on my desk. But this was the promotional novelty snow globe they made of the wood chipper.

[David Sims]

Oh, there it is.

[Griffin Newman]

Came with the VHS he was released.

[Zach Kreger]

Is this. No white or red?

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

This is a reproduction of the vintage one. The snow is white. The vintage one, the snow was red, but they've all yellowed over time.

[David Sims]

Oh, yeah, sure.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So that's why I got a new, newer one.

[David Sims]

Yeah. I think there's some story, like, of.

[Griffin Newman]

This, like, the sort of, like, memified merchandise version of the wood chipper before I got to just see that scene hit out of nowhere.

[David Sims]

It's so annoying that when I search For Fargo on IMDb the TV show comes up first.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, yeah, this movie's based on the TV show.

[David Sims]

Oh, God. I was trying to find. There's some. Like, only Stormare knew how to work the wood chipper. Like, the cones didn't understand how wood chippers worked or something. Like, I can't remember what it was.

[Griffin Newman]

But yeah, you get her final monologue.

[David Sims]

The final monologue and then the coda of him getting the stamp. Like, you walk out of this movie really feeling kind of awesome.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I think that is part of the magic.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, she's still.

[David Sims]

You're sort of like, there's something right with the world.

[Griffin Newman]

It's speaking in a folksy way in that final monologue, but you can tell that she is actually disturbed by what she's put together in her. Her head. The understanding of, why did this many people have to die?

[David Sims]

Right, right, right. But, like, I just feel like you're watching this movie and you're like. Like the darkness there is, like, sort of Some, like, resistance to the darkness. You know what I mean? Like, she's still here. And there is something, like, comforting about, like. Yeah, like, it's not all evil.

[Griffin Newman]

Not to read too much into it, but, like, the last scene is basically a metaphor for what you're saying, right. Of Norm being like, they gave me the 2 cents stamp.

[David Sims]

3.

[Griffin Newman]

3. I'm sorry, the 3 cent stamp. And he's viewing it as this sort.

[David Sims]

Of like, it's a second place or whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

And she's just like, they're important when they raise the prices. You need the 3 cent stamps. And it's sort of like, does it feel meaningless for someone like Marge to exist in a world where this many deaths are going to happen and you can't prevent evil? And it's like Marge is a 3 cent stamp. She is making, like, some small contribution to trying to, like, stop the ugliness of the world, even if she's not able to do it, hopefully holistically, because she's not a.

[Zach Kreger]

She's. Her optimism is, Is intact.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes. You know.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, right. It has not curdled her soul. She is not, like, truly magical as much as the movie. Sometimes fears close to framing her that way. But she talks a lot about it, like, being really important to her that she pull it back from feeling like she is just this sort of, like, impossibly perfect comedic conceit.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But she's like, right. She, she is able to hold onto her soul, live around it like life and like a cab. But I watched this movie and I'm like, this is what cops should be. This is, like, the only positive prototype I've seen for, like, in a functional society, what a cop would do, kind of.

[David Sims]

Sure, I guess so. I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

You're short of making robot cops. Obviously you have.

[David Sims]

There's a cop and weapons, Right? Alden's playing a cop.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Excited. So he's not as, not as nice.

[Griffin Newman]

He's not as.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

Less nice.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

But I just know the weapons trailer, you know, that shot of Alden, it was just fun. Fun. I, I, I, you know, I like a up cop.

[Griffin Newman]

You like a up cop.

[David Sims]

It's a good movie.

[Griffin Newman]

You like.

[David Sims]

That's, that's, that's.

[Griffin Newman]

There's juice there a bad lieutenant.

[David Sims]

Sure, sure. Tell me this lieutenant's bad. What if there was a bad lieutenant? Zach, before we wrap to, you know, Fargo's sort of legacy or whatever, is there anything else we have not said about Fargo? We've been talking for a while.

[Zach Kreger]

I don't Think we praised the score enough. We praised it, but, you know, score's.

[David Sims]

Amazing, but it's like, operatic, like, for such a minor kind of like, story about. Yes, yes.

[Griffin Newman]

But you saying, like, there's the one moment where the score is sort of like playing up and joking with the movie itself in the breakin, I think you said.

[Zach Kreger]

Well, I'm not saying that it's playful. I'm saying it's as. It's as playful as it gets, that scene. And it's not that playful. You know, it's still kind of dark.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I forgot to bring this up in the Blood simple episode, but there's a really good feature on the Criterion Disc of Skip Luce and Carter Burwell talking and how Skip Luce was the one who brought Carter Burwell in the Cohen.

[David Sims]

Yes, right.

[Griffin Newman]

Recommended saying, I think you could be a good film composer, even though he had no previous ambition and brought him over to the Coens and thought, like, you guys would match in tone. And he said that they. He was like, I never thought about doing this for a living. I. I should try to study the art of film scoring.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And so he said the first movie he rented to try to watch through that prism. He was like, hitchcock movies have good music. Let me rent some Hitchcock movies.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

And he watched the birds. And then only at the end of watching the birds did he realize, oh, this movie has no conventional score.

[David Sims]

I picked a weird one, essentially, that.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, Herman worked with Hitchcock to intentionally build the soundscape of the sounds of the birds and use it in a way similar to music. But that is a movie where Herman was like, it's actually better, I think, if you don't have music on this. And he said that, like, it is complete chance and sort of a mistake on his part that that was the first movie he chose to study when trying to get his head around film scoring. And yet he thinks it was so instrumental to him to have the confidence to be like, sometimes the move is to not do it. Sometimes the move is to zag. I shouldn't feel the compulsion to literally underscore everything and accentuate what is there on the page. And you're right. It's like sometimes the score feels apocalyptic, but the quietest sort of piano version of the main theme is also so deeply sound bad. It feels so tragic. Yeah, yeah, sure.

[David Sims]

It's a tragic movie. A lot of people die. Family gets destroyed. It's kind of it, I guess most of the other people who die, who cares? That parking guy heard he was a jerk.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

The indignity of. You just saw me pull in here.

[David Sims]

Oh, yeah. You got to pay in the $4.

[Griffin Newman]

But that feeling. Another moment where I just pay up the fam.

[David Sims]

This could talk to you about, like, someone to you.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Zach Kreger]

And try not to stand out like that.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Zach Kreger]

It's wild how bad he is.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

The film was released in March. That is crazy.

[Griffin Newman]

It basically takes one year for it to win two major Oscars.

[David Sims]

But, like. But beyond that, it didn't premiere at a festival.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Didn't, like, have any particularly kind of, like, complicated rollout or whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Wins best Director at Cannes two months after it was released in the United States.

[David Sims]

Yes, it played at Cannes. The jury gave the Palme d'. Or. Francis Ford Coppola was the chair, gave the palm door to Secrets and Lies, Mike Lee's Secrets and Lies. But it won best Director. And then, of course, it won two Oscars, Actress and screenplay, and it was nominated for best picture. It got great reviews, basically swept the smart awards.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it won every category, maybe.

[David Sims]

And I. I think. I think it's still their. Yes. I think it's their move. Their most iconic.

[Griffin Newman]

It's their core movie.

[David Sims]

Despite no country obviously being the smash that it was, I do think you kind of can't argue with Fargo.

[Griffin Newman]

And in an interesting way, no country feels like a less humorous version of Fargo. They are so similar in so many regards. And even just this notion of, like, is it even worth trying to fight the darkness of the world? Like, what difference is it gonna make? Obviously, Sugar becomes more mythological, and the whole film has this more sober tone.

[David Sims]

That I think Sugar is this evil myth figure, and Marge is kind of a good mythic figure in a weird way.

[Griffin Newman]

But I was thinking about, like, at this point in time, Fargo winning Best Screenplay is, like, very in line with what they would do in the 90s and the early 2000s of, like, the movie that is really cool that the Oscar goes for. But they're like, is this a little too weird to actually give it Best Picture? Right. The Pulp Fiction kind of thing. And now I think, like, this movie would win best Picture.

[David Sims]

It is, like, completely different world and aura. Just won best. Exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

You can't imagine them being like, well, it's too funny or it's too slight or any of those sorts of things. No country has a sense of, like, overriding grimness that I think finally made it feel. These guys have gotten serious enough, we could give them the Oscar, which in the 90s, there was a prejudice of. Is this all kind of A goof for them, despite. You kind of can't deny the screenplay for this movie. It is so tightly plotted, but also it is such a great example of every single line that every character has in this movie could only be said by that one character. Every character's voice is so unique and distinct and serves a different fact function and is so right there and vivid on the page.

[David Sims]

Still beat Jerry Maguire in Secrets and Lies. It was tough competition that year.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

That's sort of the indie Oscars that year.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. That's the other thing Billy keeps joking about. That Jerry Maguire was the only studio movie.

[David Sims]

March 8, 1996. Griffin. This film's opening on limited 36 screens at number 16.

[Griffin Newman]

What was the widest it ever went?

[Ben Hosley]

Do you have that?

[Griffin Newman]

I'm just curious. I gotta ask questions.

[David Sims]

It made $24 million domestic. It opened 50 worldwide. I think 51. It went as wide as about 700 screens.

[Zach Kreger]

Okay.

[David Sims]

It is not number one. Number one is a big hit comedy. This is new this week.

[Griffin Newman]

March 96.

[Ben Hosley]

Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a big hit comedy.

[David Sims]

Made $180 million worldwide. Big hit.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a big hit with a comedy star, primarily comedy star.

[David Sims]

It. It features a major comedy star and then a major serious actor.

[Ben Hosley]

Okay.

[David Sims]

And then another kind of up and cominging comedy star or I don't know how to describe him.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay. Serious actor, major comedy star. March 96. Who was the distributor of this picture?

[David Sims]

It is from mgm.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not the Birdcage.

[David Sims]

It is the birdcage.

[Griffin Newman]

It is the birdcage.

[David Sims]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

My go. The bird cat cage.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Good movie.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Big hit.

[David Sims]

That's what's just crazy about it, that you're like, that thing was a blockbuster.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And was like, not like a. A political hot potato.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That everyone just went to see it and like. Funny.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Number two is also new this week. Less of a good movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

A sequel family film.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a family film sequel. It's not like it's. Is it a two? Is it a deuce?

[David Sims]

It's a two.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a two. It's not like Home Alone 2 or. Or, I'm sorry, Homeward Bound 2.

[David Sims]

That is Homeward Bound. I got it Lost in San Francisco.

[Griffin Newman]

The debut film from director. Do you know who directed Homeward Bound 2?

[David Sims]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, David Ellis. David R. Ellis, director of Final destination.

[David Sims]

Final Destination 2, 2 and 4.

[Griffin Newman]

I just rewatched all of them leading up to Bloodlines, which I just saw in Re. Rips so hard.

[David Sims]

What's so interesting about The Final Destination movies is that he made two, which I think is arguably the best.

[Griffin Newman]

Until Bloodlines. I thought it was the best.

[David Sims]

The logs one, the log scene is the greatest.

[Zach Kreger]

It's not. It's not just the greatest Final Destination sequence. And I haven't seen Bloodlines, so I.

[David Sims]

And you will love Bloodline.

[Ben Hosley]

But that.

[Zach Kreger]

Log sequence is that. That's a masterpiece of anything. It's just amazing.

[Griffin Newman]

I. I was. I was rewatching all of them and I watched the log scene and I was like, you know what? I'm not ready to move on from this. And I restarted the MO from the beginning and just watch. The first 15 plots are so good. It is so incredibly well staged.

[David Sims]

Yes, it is.

[Zach Kreger]

And the sound design, all of it.

[David Sims]

But then here's my thing. He made, in my opinion, what is also arguably the worst one, the fourth one, which is one of those things where you're like, I don't get why this is bad. And the others are good because it's not diverting from the formula. It is doing the same thing. And yet the tone of it is off. It's too nasty. All the characters kind of are just annoying.

[Griffin Newman]

I think, as the kids would say, it just feels like the TEMU version of Final Destination. Everything just feels kind of off.

[David Sims]

It's just funny that, like, he made the best one and the worst one anyway.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I was going down the rabbit hole of him and being like, man, Final Destination 2 is so good. Where did this guy come from? And he has one of those. He died weirdly young and bizarre circumstances that were never explained. But he has one of these, like, studio journeyman careers where he was like a. A stunt performer and then he was a stunt supervisor and then he was a second unit director. Yeah, he just had, like, 15 years of experience in different positions, then directed a fucking talking dog movie and then did Final Destination 2.

[Zach Kreger]

My wife worked with him on Shark Knight.

[David Sims]

Oh, that was his last film.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Zach Kreger]

And she loved him. Said he was just really great to work with.

[David Sims]

Was the star of Shark Knight, was she not?

[Griffin Newman]

She was Shark Knight 3D. Let's put on that.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

When's our last shark movie? Is it time for, I guess, the Meg 2? Yeah, I guess that wasn't that long.

[Griffin Newman]

And there was a 47 meters downstairs.

[David Sims]

Sequel that seems less. I just feel like every couple years, some guy in Hollywood is like. And pulls a lever and they're like, it's time for another shark movie. You know what I mean?

[Griffin Newman]

It is weird that there's just some.

[David Sims]

Guy in the bowels of Hollywood is like the shark movie. It's time for another one.

[Griffin Newman]

It almost always works. Yeah. If your button is low enough, anytime there's some shitty looking shark movie that comes out like 47 meters down two and you're just like, no one's going to see that. And then just quietly makes 45 miles million.

[David Sims]

Number three at the box office is a romantic drama with, like, big movie stars written by, like, big shots.

[Griffin Newman]

Is it the Baldwin, Meg Ryan one?

[David Sims]

No.

[Ben Hosley]

Okay.

[David Sims]

That's. No, you're thinking of Andy Garcia, Meg Ryan. You think of When a man.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I'm not. I'm thinking of Prelude to a Kiss.

[David Sims]

Oh, yeah, sure. No, it's not that. Even more prestige than that.

[Ben Hosley]

He.

[Griffin Newman]

He. Baldwin brings up Prelude to a Kiss so much on HBO Max's the Baldwins as if it was obviously his Fargo. Like every once in a while you end up on a perfect movie and it's so clear that he read the script and thought it was going to be the one that lasted forever. Had a great experience making it and it just didn't connect. Okay.

[Zach Kreger]

I remember, like, I saw it the year it came out, so I had to be real, you know, 16. I remember thinking, this is a great movie.

[Griffin Newman]

But it definitely has not lasted. And he talks about it as if it was like the pinnacle of his leading man career.

[Ben Hosley]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

So, yeah, Prelude to a Kiss has been on my mind. Okay. It's more prestigey than that.

[David Sims]

The actors involved are, you know, major sort of serious stars. They're getting a little older. Like. Well, although the female lead is.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not Frankie and Johnny. No, but it's kind of. Is it in that zone?

[David Sims]

No, that's based on like a play that people liked.

[Griffin Newman]

This is based on Pacino and Fifer's prestige. It's based on a book.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's based on a book that I think was about. About a real person. And it's sort of like fictionalizing it. It is like a forgotten movie. It is. It was nominated for an Oscar for its song because it has like an absolute banger of a like, big love ballad.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not like dying young, but is it like that level of weepy?

[David Sims]

I don't even know. I don't know if you need to weep. I think people die.

[Griffin Newman]

Who's the distributor?

[David Sims]

Disney. Touchstone.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a Touchstone 96. It's not phenomenon, which we talked about is in that same year and is obviously based on, you know what?

[David Sims]

You might not know this movie like, this movie Is so forgotten. It's best known because the people who wrote it wrote a book about writing it and how hard it was to write it.

[Griffin Newman]

Give me one of the stars, Robert Redford. Oh, fuck.

[David Sims]

It's got a great title. It's got the kind of title a grown up movie had in the 90s.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not Havana.

[David Sims]

No, fuck.

[Griffin Newman]

It's all right.

[David Sims]

The other star is Michelle Pfeiffer.

[Ben Hosley]

Yep, yep, yep, yep.

[David Sims]

Movie was directed by John Avnet.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And direct and written by Joan Didion and John Gregory Dunn.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. It's. It's. Is it called like blank and blank?

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

I knew. I know. It has like a clear.

[Zach Kreger]

Zach.

[David Sims]

I assume you don't know the title. It's forgotten movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Is it up close and personal?

[David Sims]

Up close and personal.

[Ben Hosley]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

I had the rhythm in my. I knew it was Dun dun.

[David Sims]

And Stalker Channing. Joe Montana, James Reb Horn. That's a movie about grown ups.

[Griffin Newman]

That is a grown up movie.

[David Sims]

I didn't. I don't know what it's about. I just knew when I was a kid, I was like. But it has the song because you loved me.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh.

[David Sims]

Written by Diane Warren but performed by Celine Dion, which does rock. It's like a. Just like a Diane Warren torch song.

[Griffin Newman]

It is fascinating to look through as we're in 20, 25, year of our life. Diane Warren losing her 30th Academy Award nomination or whatever. And I was advocating, like, give it to her this year. Let's just get this over with.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

You basically look the first 10 nominations, you're like, all of these would have been respectable wins.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Because you love me.

[Griffin Newman]

And now she's overdue in every song she's written in the 20 years. Has sucked ass.

[David Sims]

Stinks. Number four at the box office is a comedy that I'm sure Ben saw five to seven times on cable.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay. Now, Ben recently brought up to me in confidence that the most offended he has ever been by anything you've ever said on the podcast.

[David Sims]

I assumed he did or didn't watch some movie. You.

[Griffin Newman]

You said Ben. That's definitely one of your big movies.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

Box office game. One of the movies you described as. You must have been a huge.

[David Sims]

You must have watched this one. Sure. What was it?

[Ben Hosley]

No.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

You made it out to be like this defined your personality. Malibu's most wanted.

[David Sims]

Hell yeah. Are you sure it didn't.

[Griffin Newman]

In the last couple days, Ben was. Ben was still griping about this to me. Truly. Five days ago.

[David Sims]

Jamie Kennedy guy.

[Zach Kreger]

I mean, we got.

[David Sims]

We all got axed at One time, right?

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

America. Erica got X, like a couple of times.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

Sure, I got X, but I wouldn't.

[David Sims]

Say I'm a big fan. I don't care.

[Griffin Newman]

This movie framed it as like, Ben, this must have been seismic for you.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

I am realizing my outfit is giving.

[Zach Kreger]

Ben, your shirt is.

[Griffin Newman]

You're looking a little.

[David Sims]

It is. Not at all. You look like you're about to, like, do some B boy boobs, you know?

[Griffin Newman]

Well, that's more kicking it old school. That's a different Jamie Kent.

[David Sims]

This film is a broad comedy starring a sitcom star.

[Griffin Newman]

I just need to set up the stakes to see if Ben's gonna be offended by this.

[David Sims]

No, he definitely isn't.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's see. It's a broad comedy starring a sitcom.

[David Sims]

Star from a director of movies that Ben loves. Other movies.

[Griffin Newman]

Is it David S. Words? Down Periscope.

[David Sims]

Correct.

[Griffin Newman]

I believe that is one of your favorite movies. He's got.

[David Sims]

You got it, right. No, you're right. He's got you ever seen Down Periscope, Zach?

[Zach Kreger]

No.

[David Sims]

That's the Kelsey Grammer submarine sex comedy.

[Zach Kreger]

I can visualize the COVID Yeah.

[David Sims]

Never seen it. I personally have seen.

[Griffin Newman]

We're getting ready. It will have happened by this point. But to do a live show in New York about King Ralph, one of Ben's favorite movies ever, and a movie we've been threatening to Discuss for about 10 straight years, Ben quietly realized that he is a David S. Ward, a tourist. Over the course of doing this podcast that every movie. David S. Ward, Academy Award winning screenwriter of the Sting, directed Major League King.

[David Sims]

Ralph, Major League 2, down periscope, and then the program, the sports drama, I think. You don't know.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

I'm not familiar.

[Griffin Newman]

Every other one.

[David Sims]

James Caan.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

I gotta watch this thing. Probably like the movie.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

He's known for.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's pretty good.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, you should watch it.

[David Sims]

Number four, the box office is a horror film. The fourth. It's the number five at the box office. Sorry.

[Griffin Newman]

Number.

[David Sims]

The fourth.

[Zach Kreger]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

It's the fourth film in a series in 1996.

[David Sims]

I think it's the last theatrical.

[Griffin Newman]

Is it Hellraiser?

[David Sims]

Hellraise, Razor 4. Subtitled.

[Griffin Newman]

So 3 is Hell on Earth?

[David Sims]

Possibly. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

4 is. It's not Inferno?

[David Sims]

No, that's 5.

[Griffin Newman]

4 is. Do you know this A. Are you like.

[David Sims]

Are you a Hellraiser guy, Zach?

[Zach Kreger]

I love the first one.

[David Sims]

First one's incredible.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you know this, Ben?

[Marie Barty Salinas]

I don't remember the title.

[David Sims]

I'm the only person who knows this for.

[Griffin Newman]

No, but I know that's not true. This is somewhere in my. My brain.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I think I'm gonna just make you do it.

[Griffin Newman]

Is the word hell in the subtitle?

[Ben Hosley]

No.

[David Sims]

The film is Hellraiser 4. No, that has not yet. There have not yet been one of those. The 4 film is Hellraiser 4. Bloodline.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, like Final Destination.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David Sims]

I'd never seen it. That's a film where, like, the director got fired midway through by Miramax and was replaced. And, you know, I think it's a.

[Griffin Newman]

Because the director was a cenobite. That was the first time they trying to. Right. There was pushback of. Why aren't you letting cenobites tell their own stories?

[David Sims]

Number six at the box office is Broken Arrow. I'm just going by that. Number seven is Rumble in the Bronx.

[Griffin Newman]

Funny. And I think it'll stand the test of time.

[David Sims]

This is a fun, trashy time at the movie.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[David Sims]

You can go see Rumble in the Bronx and Then Homeward Bound 2 and Hellraiser 4. This is just a bunch of garbage. Happy Gilmore is still hanging around Mr. Holland's opus. The biggest piece of trash of all of these movies.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

No movie you've maybe attacked more in your life than Mr. Holmes.

[David Sims]

Do you like Mr. Holland's opus, Zach? I know you're not.

[Zach Kreger]

I haven't seen it since it came out. And I have very little recall of that movie.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't remember, like, take is that the opus sucks.

[David Sims]

It's seven hours of this guy abusing his students, his wife just being an absolute crank.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And then he's like. Then they're like, well, you should finally do your opus. We all actually loved you the whole time. And they do his opus and it just lays an egg. It's the worst opus ever.

[Zach Kreger]

The story is that the opus sucks.

[David Sims]

The story is that he's always working on his opus and he's so frustrated by how he has to be a teacher. And he's like, got hate being a teacher. This sucks. And then at the end, the students are like, well, we loved you and we'll play your opus now. And then they play.

[Griffin Newman]

It is a classic example of a movie writing a check for itself to depict a fictional, profound work of art. And by the time you get to the performance, you're like, am I supposed to think this is good? Frames it as an artistic trial.

[David Sims]

The movie's like, he did it.

[Griffin Newman]

He was just.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's the worst. I mean, anyone else in that movie. And he got an Oscar nomination. People like the performance. He plays it so Ornery. It's crazy. Number 10. I know this might shock you. Number 10. The box office Muppet Treasure Island.

[Griffin Newman]

One of the greats.

[David Sims]

Great movie.

[Griffin Newman]

That's much like Fargo. One of. One of the few perfect films. Not a hair, not a single Muppet fur strand out of place in that film.

[David Sims]

Zach, we have kept you for far too long.

[Zach Kreger]

Yeah, I've enjoyed every minute of it.

[David Sims]

Well, that's nice of you to say. This is a perfect movie.

[Griffin Newman]

It is.

[David Sims]

And I assume Weapons is similarly perfect and is in theaters now and people should go see it.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I am truly excited for Weapons.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I. I wonder.

[Zach Kreger]

Yeah, I wonder how this. Well, whatever. We'll see. Scratch that thought. Hope, Hope, Hope it's a good time.

[Griffin Newman]

I hope so, too. Yeah, we're very excited, Zach.

[David Sims]

It's going to go great.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

It's so stressful.

[David Sims]

You know, I'm very. I'm very moving.

[Zach Kreger]

Release is a. Is a terrifying time, and you're about.

[David Sims]

To enter, like, insane ramp up, like.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Right. You have to promote a movie and deal with the feedback and start your next movie, like, simultaneously. Yeah, sorry.

[Zach Kreger]

I. I comfort. Because I'll be working on the next one. Like, I'll be in Europe when this comes out, so I have to come back briefly for press. But, you know, whatever happens with Weapons, I hope it goes well. But no matter what, I'll be able to go back and. And just, you know, bury myself and in production, which is, you know.

[David Sims]

Right. But don't drink any, like, weird vials that you find in any, like, labs or anything like that. Okay.

[Ben Hosley]

Okay.

[David Sims]

Just make sure and like, you know, put all the gems in the correct gargoyle eyes and all that stuff.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Use the right color keys. I met you, like, a year ago and you had, I think, basically like, locked your cut of weapons, but obviously there were still, like, posts, production, finishing stuff to do. And you knew the release date was a ways off. And I said, how do you feel about it? And you just said, I love it so much. And you said it not with, like, a level of arrogance. You were like, I have no idea how anyone's going to receive it. I don't know if the studio's going to like it. I don't know if it's going to play well. But I like, I. I was like, that must be such a great feeling to, like, step back and look and be like, man, I made the thing I want, wanted to make. And I'm existing in this state of purity before anyone else has to see it.

[Zach Kreger]

Yeah, exactly. And right now, you know, in that time, I hadn't even done a test screening, and it was just my thing, and it was like. I'm very, very proud because the movie I had in my head when I was writing it is the movie that I see when I watch it. I was able to do that, and that's not always the case. So. So in that regard, I. I'm, you know, I'm totally in love with the movie. I really am, but now it's like, you know, you gotta, like, send your kid to the first day of school and hope no one's mean to it. You know?

[Griffin Newman]

Is everyone gonna think a loser?

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Zach Kreger]

So it'll stop being my perfect, pure, little, little thing, and it'll start being something that everyone's allowed to have a say on and all that, which is, you know, that's what I signed up for. That's okay.

[David Sims]

But it's. That's.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the job.

[Zach Kreger]

This is.

[David Sims]

Right. The bill coming due, but it'll be great.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

I like the title.

[Zach Kreger]

Thanks.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

I feel like I get what it's going to be about.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you. Have you seen the trailer?

[David Sims]

No.

[Ben Hosley]

Okay.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

But I. I am not necessarily a trailer guy. I'm more of. I just like to go in.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I love that.

[Zach Kreger]

Going blind.

[David Sims]

I, too, try to go in fairly blind. I have seen the trailer, but the.

[Zach Kreger]

Trailer is pretty mysterious. Will you go to a theater late that you skip trailers?

[David Sims]

I mean, I have.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

I mean, unfortunately. I mean, we were talking about this before we got started. I, you know, at times will be. Be late, and so I will miss them.

[Griffin Newman]

I can't relate. Yeah, but you're not a. Like, you close your eyes and.

[David Sims]

No.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Some people do that.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

No, I. I watch them.

[David Sims]

Whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, thank you for being here. Excited to see Weapons. Encourage everyone to go see Weapons in the future where this episode is coming out and it's playing in theaters.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Love that.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And thank you all for listening. Please.

[Zach Kreger]

Thank you guys very much for having me.

[Griffin Newman]

Truly an honor. Privilege. Look forward to doing it again if you will continue to tolerate us.

[Zach Kreger]

Absolutely.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Come back anytime and come to New York so we can, you know, do an irl.

[Griffin Newman]

You'll come on and talk about the. The Dangerous Apartment from Big. Tune in next week for the Big Lebowski.

[Zach Kreger]

Who's doing the Big Lebowski?

[David Sims]

Well, we'll cut it out if he's not actually available, but as far as we know. Seth Rogen.

[Ben Hosley]

Yes.

[Zach Kreger]

All right.

[Griffin Newman]

Another. Another future. Bet that everything has worked out, and if not that will be bleeped out.

[David Sims]

We keep booking busy guys including music and it's working out so far.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, we love our busy guys, don't we? And as always, all that just for a little bit of money.

[Marie Barty Salinas]

Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas and our Associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithee, research by JJ Burch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel with additional music by Alex Mitchell, artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Min. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy. Join our Patreon Blank Check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social Blank checkpod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.