Benjamin Frisch (1:58)

In what way?

Bilga Abiri (2:00)

I am watching every single adaptation of Wuthering Heights ever made, and not just, like, the BBC adaptations and whatnot. I am watching all the Indian adaptations, the Pakistani adaptation, the multiple Filipino adaptations, the Turkish adaptation, the Egyptian adaptation, and it has taken me the better part of a year, and I'm still not done. I'm, like, desperately trying to make my deadline.

Alison Wilmore (2:24)

You did this to yourself as well. This was a project you took on.

Benjamin Frisch (2:27)

Did you know how many there were when you.

Bilga Abiri (2:29)

I knew there were a lot. I knew there were a lot. And in fact, at one point, I had to draw the line at telenovelas because there are multiple telenovelas, like, you know, 50 episode series from, like, the 50s and 60s, from, like, Venezuela that I was. I don't even know how I would find these, let alone, like, watch them.

Benjamin Frisch (2:47)

Bronte just cash in those royalty checks.

Bilga Abiri (2:49)

But it is, it is fascinating. How so? It's funny though, because like, I've been hearing people talking about the new Wuthering Heights and some of the things it does, they're like, oh, it takes liberties. I'm like, well, they all take liberties, don't they? And of course, I. In this world where I'm watching like a loose adaptation of it molded to the Bollywood model, or even ones like the updated ones like the MTV Wuthering Heights and then Wuthering High from the Asylum or the gender flipped modern day British one, Spark House.

Benjamin Frisch (3:20)

Right, but you're not doing any of the porn parodies.

Bilga Abiri (3:23)

I am not doing any of the porn parodies. Although, you know, at one point I thought I should check and see if there are some porn parody. And I was like, no, I can't go.

Benjamin Frisch (3:30)

I don't know that you want the word Wuthering in your porn.

Alison Wilmore (3:34)

I do like Spark House, though, as a. What is a flipped version of Wuthering Heights?

Bilga Abiri (3:39)

It's like, I mean, gender flipped was kind of the way they sold it, but it's actually very loose adaptation. Updated. Made in, I want to say 2002. And I mean kind of an MTV ish. All the boys in it look like they could be members of Oasis. It's, you know, it takes a lot of liberties and kind of feels like an after school special on crack. Wow. It's got all sorts of topical things like rape and suicide and all sorts of things, but. And it's kind of crazy and fun in a weird way, but also, you know, really dodgy in other ways. But, you know, not the worst adaptation.

Benjamin Frisch (4:25)

Is this all for a ranking that you're going to be doing?

Bilga Abiri (4:27)

It's for a ranking. It's for a ranking that no one will read.

Benjamin Frisch (4:30)

But, you know, I'm going to read it.

Alison Wilmore (4:31)

Yeah. Well, if you're listening to this, please go year worth of work.

Bilga Abiri (4:35)

I feel like people will check it out just to see where like, you know, their favorite versions ended up on the link. But it is, it is kind of funny because, like, while I'm writing it, I'm also thinking I am talking about the Same story like 36 times. And each blurb is like, I'm like, I have to keep myself from just saying the same things over and over and over again.

Alison Wilmore (4:54)

Well, you haven't seen, I haven't seen the new one, but do you, do you at the moment have a number one?

Bilga Abiri (4:59)

I don't have a number one yet. I have Kind of a top buy.

Alison Wilmore (5:02)

Okay.

Bilga Abiri (5:03)

And it's kind of a how I'm feeling on day of. Also, I want to see the new one too, before I. Before I kind of make a decision. There's kind of this, like, thing I'm struggling with, which. Which often happens with these kinds of lists where I'm like, do I make my number one, like a really different adaptation that I happen to love, or do I make my number one, like the best of the kind of more faithful adaptations?

Benjamin Frisch (5:25)

Because technically there is a Transformers movie that's Wuthering Heights, thickly veiled.

Alison Wilmore (5:30)

I would love that. I say go with your heart. Go with the one that speaks to you.

Bilga Abiri (5:35)

I know. This is the theme of the thing, right?

Alison Wilmore (5:38)

Yeah. Yeah.

Benjamin Frisch (5:39)

How have you found. How are these available to watch like, that feels like that would be the trickiest.

Bilga Abiri (5:44)

It's been a journey. I have bought discs from India, from Italy. In fact, I had this whole thing with. Cause there are two Italian miniseries of it. One of them, I've managed to find a German DVD that I bought through Amazon France of the Italian. The newer Italian miniseries. And then there's an older Italian miniseries actually starring Massimo Girotti as Heathcliff that is also available. And I found a seller in Italy who would sell it to me, but then they ran into like, tariff issues.

Benjamin Frisch (6:25)

Oh, my God, this is geopolitical.

Bilga Abiri (6:26)

And it actually got to this point where I was like, I really need this. And she was like, I'm trying, but I don't know if I'm going to be able to get it to you in time. And finally she was like, what if I just sent it to you? What if I just like burned it to you and sent it to you as files? I was like, please, go ahead, do it. That's fine.

Benjamin Frisch (6:43)

Now, in Italian, do they call her Katarina Earnshaw or did they say Kathy?

Bilga Abiri (6:47)

It is Katerina. They actually do. They don't move it to Italy in that one. Like, it is still like Liverpool, you know, but it is Katerina Yorkshire. Yeah.

Unidentified Participant 1 (7:00)

Are you always so thorough in your. In your viewing habits? I feel like you guys, like, you know, when you're reviewing something, you're often watching the previous, you know, directors films.

Alison Wilmore (7:12)

Yeah, you know, I try, but I don't think any of us holds a candle in this regard.

Bilga Abiri (7:17)

Well, it was kind. I used to do these lists back in the day for Vulture, and I think they sort of like the fact that I would be thorough and in terms of, like, when I would. I have this ongoing list of great car movies that I update every time there's a new like racing movie or whatever comes up. But, you know, I went around and actually found car movies from all over the world to include in that. I just kind of enjoyed the idea of like trying to find rare stuff that people might not be familiar with. Once upon a time, people tend. Readers tended to appreciate that it's been long enough that now people actually kind of get angry at you if you include films they've never heard of. So. So that's been a fun little sea change to experience. Years ago, I did a big list for Vulture of the best foreign language musicals and foreign language meaning non English language musicals. Because you would see lists of musicals and people would be like, oh, you know, it's all like, you know, star is Born, Singing in the Rain, stuff like that. And I was like, well, there's so many. Like every culture has. The Soviets had like musicals. Egyptian musicals are a thing. Obviously, Bollywood movies.

Benjamin Frisch (8:28)

Yeah.

Bilga Abiri (8:29)

And so I did this like 50 title list of like the greatest musicals not in English. And that was fun because I spent like a year. I spent like two years doing it. And it was, you know, you'd find like ebay, you know, you'd go on ebay and find like dodgy, you know, sort of gray market copies of films that you've been looking for. And there were films I couldn't find, but I just enjoyed that. Like my cinephilia began as trying to find rare, then rare Italian movies like Pasolini movies through like, you know, disreputable sources and stuff like that when I was a teenager. And as everything has become more available now, I'm like expanding to try and find really, really rare stuff.

Unidentified Participant 1 (9:14)

Spend a lot of time on Dailymotion.com.

Bilga Abiri (9:17)

I spend more time than I ever thought I would.

Benjamin Frisch (9:19)

But yeah, see, I thought dailymotion was just to watch Australian Survivor, but I guess not. That has other.

Alison Wilmore (9:25)

There are some real gems on there.

Bilga Abiri (9:26)

Dailymotion is where I found the Egyptian Wuthering Heights, which is actually really good. And I discovered a new director. Not a new director, but like a classic Egyptian director whose work I was unfamiliar with, but a guy named Kamal Al Sheikh, who's actually a very well regarded director in Egypt. And talking to, you know, a couple of my Egyptian friends about him, I'm like, oh, this is like a really interesting guy. He was known as the Egyptian Hitchcock and he specialized in kind of noirish type films. And even though his Wuthering Heights isn't a noir, it has some of those elements which Actually fits that story really well. And it's kind of a surprisingly faithful adaptation, even though it's, like, updated and set in Egypt. Anyway, all this stuff is just kind of fun.

Benjamin Frisch (10:11)

How deep is your Frankenstein knowledge? Because there have been, you know, a kajillion Frankenstein movies. Right.

Bilga Abiri (10:16)

I mean, yeah, I haven't watched all the frankincense, but. But I went. When. Around the time the Kenneth Branagh version came out. Years ago. I read the novel and, you know, sort of tried to familiarize myself with the story, but that was a long time ago.

Alison Wilmore (10:34)

To close the loop on the Wuthering Heights Frankenstein, I will say Jacob Elordi, who plays the monster in Frankenstein, I feel like there's a lot in common with the kind of middle thread of Elordi in Wuthering Heights when he is not yet reinvented himself as Heathcliff, but is kind of grown up, but still.

Benjamin Frisch (10:55)

Kind of a brute.

Alison Wilmore (10:56)

Yes, he's like this kind of brute. He's got a bit of a. They're kind of the same, like his friend.

Benjamin Frisch (11:01)

And then he comes back with kind of a makeover, a bit of a glow up.

Alison Wilmore (11:03)

Yeah, yeah. He's like. It's like Colin Firth in Pride and Prejudice, but with a gold tooth and an earring.

Bilga Abiri (11:10)

Yeah.

Benjamin Frisch (11:10)

Oh, he does have the gold tooth. They're subtle about, but it's.

Alison Wilmore (11:13)

Yeah, it's a delicate touch. A delicate touch. Well, yes, we can. Since it's. Since this is podcast, is Wuthering Heights, is this going to be an Oscar movie, do we think?

Benjamin Frisch (11:24)

Oh, boy. I mean, I mean, we're going to get into like, technical category stuff with Frankenstein for sure. I mean, I could see that being something that Wuthering Heights has, you know, in its favor, like cinematography or certainly there's a best song in there, right? From Charli xcx, probably.

Alison Wilmore (11:40)

I do love that song.

Benjamin Frisch (11:42)

Yeah. Yeah. I was not a fan of the movie, so I'm having a hard time thinking positively about its awards chances. But sure. I mean, I think that Saltburn, her last movie, probably underperformed in that regard. People, I think, thought it might get some attention and it just really didn't. So I don't know. This coming out in February, so it's a long haul to the Oscars. I don't know.

Bilga Abiri (12:00)

Yeah.

Alison Wilmore (12:00)

This Wuthering Heights, it's for the fans, not the critics, I think.

Benjamin Frisch (12:03)

So I am.

Alison Wilmore (12:04)

This criticism.

Bilga Abiri (12:05)

Did. Love one.

Alison Wilmore (12:05)

Yeah, for another time.

Benjamin Frisch (12:08)

Yeah, for another time.

Alison Wilmore (12:08)

Maybe this time next year we'll reconvene on this topic.

Benjamin Frisch (12:11)

We just want to acknowledge that it is out this week.

Alison Wilmore (12:13)

It is out this week. And it does. It does have a star in common.

Benjamin Frisch (12:16)

Yeah.

Alison Wilmore (12:17)

Who is really, I think, like, really kind of like owning the. The hot hulking brute, you know?

Benjamin Frisch (12:25)

Yeah.

Alison Wilmore (12:25)

World right now.

Benjamin Frisch (12:26)

Congrats to you, Jacob, of the class of those, like 20, late 20s into mid-30s guys. Your mescal and your Joshua Condorses and all those people. Callum Turners. Elordi is only the second to get like, Oscar attention, really, because Meskell obviously got there first with After Sun. And I was joking to some friends over text. Cause I was rewatching Frankenstein last night and I was like, like, isn't it kind of funny that Jacob Elordi's first nomination is for playing Frankenstein's monster? Like, would you have thought that watching Euphoria? And then it's like, well, he is really tall, so maybe that does. Maybe it's not that surprising.

Alison Wilmore (13:03)

I mean, it has informed a lot of his roles.

Benjamin Frisch (13:06)

You know, he was deemed. Back when he was a teenager in Australia, his mother, he was doing acting classes, became obsessed with acting. His mom was like, you should also consider modeling. It would be a good way to like, make money or whatever. And he tried. And they were like, you're too tall for the sample size clothing.

Alison Wilmore (13:20)

Wow.

Benjamin Frisch (13:21)

Yeah, there. There is actually. There is. I didn't. I didn't realize there was a ceiling.

Alison Wilmore (13:24)

Yeah. I feel like that the height thing even figures into his Elvis. You know, in Priscilla. Like, they. It uses the height difference between them to almost like, emphasize also the power imbalance and the kind of like her youthfulness is like, also becomes compounded, but it's like physically smallness by comparison.

Bilga Abiri (13:43)

This is actually. I remember. Sorry, tangent. But when I was a kid reading about Elle McPherson. Oh, sure.

Benjamin Frisch (13:51)

Yeah.

Bilga Abiri (13:52)

Generation X represents. But she often talked about how she had difficulty getting modeling contract because she was tall. And in Australia, it was like really seen as like a. Like a real knock against you. If you were like a certain height above a certain height, I guess, like.

Alison Wilmore (14:10)

You were getting too uppity.

Bilga Abiri (14:11)

I don't know. I. You know, but it was like she was like, what do you think?

Benjamin Frisch (14:14)

You're from the northern hemisphere up there?

Bilga Abiri (14:15)

Like, you know, like, that was the thing that she was. Say. I don't know if it's actually true, but that's.

Benjamin Frisch (14:22)

Well, I mean, I got. Well, well, we. We had an Australian listener write in about the Tony McNamara thing. So, yeah, if you have any opinion about the hype. Yeah, but yeah, no, I. I do think that, like, rewatching this, I. I do think Elordi is good and it is exciting for him, but it's just. It is still a little funny to me. Did you see the Paul Schrader movie at Can Bilga? The. Oh, Canada? Yeah. So he plays the younger version of Richard Gere in that, which is like. Okay, so as he got older, he shrank about a foot.

Bilga Abiri (14:52)

Well, those happen.

Benjamin Frisch (14:53)

It does happen. But that's. That's a movie where. And I think that maybe Schrader, who's obviously a brilliant director, but like, in that, I think he seemed to maybe a little bit unsure how to film someone that tall and how to like, frame him. Because there were times in O Canada where, you know, it's in the past with the Elordi stuff where he's sitting in a chair or something and you're like, is that like doll furniture? Because he just looms in it. And then sometimes it feels like the camera's straining to capture him in full. That was the really only time in a movie where I thought his height was a detriment, to be honest.

Alison Wilmore (15:26)

Yeah. I mean, I think you see it a bit sometimes with fellow Australian Elizabeth Debicki.

Benjamin Frisch (15:31)

Sure.

Alison Wilmore (15:31)

Where sometimes when she is just like shot without anyone accommodating the height, you're like, wow. Like everyone else. The scale of everything looks different.

Unidentified Participant 1 (15:39)

They could put him in the bar in Blue Moon.

Alison Wilmore (15:41)

Yes, exactly. And then you wouldn't need to make Ethan Hawk look smaller. He could automatically.

Benjamin Frisch (15:55)

David.

Unidentified Participant 1 (15:56)

Yes.

Unidentified Participant 3 (15:56)

This episode is brought to you by mubi, the global film company that champions great cinema.

Unidentified Participant 2 (16:03)

It champions it unlike the others.

Unidentified Participant 3 (16:05)

No, they cry it barbarian it. From iconic directors to emerging ot, there is always something new to discover with mubi. Each and every film is hand selected so you can explore the best of cinema.

Unidentified Participant 2 (16:19)

You can log on to MUBI and check out all the movies they got. You know, art house, you know, cool indie stuff, foreign stuff. Okay. This is awesome. What? There's a movie star movie now streaming on MUBI in the us covered on Blank Check.

Unidentified Participant 3 (16:32)

I think that's the headline.

Unidentified Participant 2 (16:34)

Yeah. Die My Love.

Unidentified Participant 3 (16:35)

Yes. You're gonna need to watch it if you want to keep up with the show.

Unidentified Participant 2 (16:39)

True, true. I mean, I guess, you know, do what you want. You don't have to. But we recommend viewing the film.

Unidentified Participant 3 (16:44)

Please view the film.

Unidentified Participant 2 (16:45)

Die My Lovely. And Ramsey's film, Great came out last, was a canon that came out last fall in 2025. It's a visceral and uncompromising portrait of a woman engulfed by love and madness, starring Jennifer Lawrence, who was nominated for a Golden Globe. Robert Pattinson. It's kind of mostly those two. So very heavy on the two of them.

Unidentified Participant 3 (17:04)

Yeah, some. Some top shelf Nolte. I was gonna say some seasoning of Nolte and Spacek, but this is dry.

Unidentified Participant 2 (17:12)

Age, let me tell you. Oh, yeah, you've got them in there, but yeah, it's a lot. It's a big showstopper movie for J. Law and our paths.

Bilga Abiri (17:23)

Yeah.

Unidentified Participant 2 (17:25)

Knows he's playing second fish.

Unidentified Participant 1 (17:26)

Sure.

Unidentified Participant 2 (17:26)

But then there's busting out the Cello.

Unidentified Participant 3 (17:28)

A lemon pepper dry rub of Nick Nolte.

Unidentified Participant 2 (17:31)

I love lemon pepper, guys.

Unidentified Participant 3 (17:33)

I love Nick Nolte.

Unidentified Participant 2 (17:34)

I love Lignolti, too. Look at Lynn Ramsey making her eagerly awaited filmmaking return. Obviously, that's why we're covering her.

Bilga Abiri (17:40)

Thank you.

Unidentified Participant 2 (17:40)

Because we've been waiting for her to make another movie. And it was on the shortlist for cinematography. The 90th Academy Awards. I didn't even know that.

Unidentified Participant 3 (17:49)

That's awesome.

Unidentified Participant 2 (17:50)

It's a passionate, complicated, destructive love story between two major stars in Lawrence and Pattinson, who'd never been together on screen before.

Bilga Abiri (17:57)

I know.

Unidentified Participant 2 (17:58)

I guess that's not that surprising. But they are quite a pair.

Unidentified Participant 3 (18:01)

The Bat and the Cat. K A T N I S S oh, Katniss.

Benjamin Frisch (18:07)

Yeah.

Unidentified Participant 2 (18:07)

The Bat and the Steek Mystique.

Benjamin Frisch (18:09)

That is.

Unidentified Participant 3 (18:10)

Oh, sure.

Unidentified Participant 1 (18:10)

Yeah.

Unidentified Participant 2 (18:11)

It's an awesome movie.

Unidentified Participant 1 (18:11)

It's an awesome.

Unidentified Participant 3 (18:13)

Is that something. He's played a lot of freaks. Sure, sure.

Unidentified Participant 2 (18:16)

The spoiler alert for the episode. But I was a big fan of the film. I know you were, Ben.

Unidentified Participant 3 (18:20)

Have you seen it yet?

Unidentified Participant 2 (18:21)

I haven't seen it yet.

Unidentified Participant 3 (18:22)

You're gonna like it a lot.

Unidentified Participant 2 (18:23)

It's also based on a book by Ariana Horwitz.

Unidentified Participant 3 (18:27)

Anyway, there's so much good stuff to watch on movie.

Unidentified Participant 2 (18:30)

There's also awesome.

Bilga Abiri (18:31)

Yeah.

Unidentified Participant 2 (18:31)

Other good.

Unidentified Participant 3 (18:31)

Look, if you're not a member, this is a perfect month to sign up. In order to keep up with the show, to stream the best of cinema, you could try MUBI free for 30 days@mubi.com blankcheck that's m u b I.com blankcheck for a whole month of great cinema for free.

Unidentified Participant 1 (18:55)

So Elordi has a nomination. What are the other noms for Frankenstein?

Benjamin Frisch (19:01)

Picture not director is visual effects, art direction, adapted screenplay, I believe.

Alison Wilmore (19:10)

Elordi for a supporting role, writing, adapted screenplay, original score, best sound, best production design, best cinematography, makeup and hairstyling, costume design. So a lot of the crafts.

Benjamin Frisch (19:24)

Yeah. Did very well. It's one of those movies. I mean, they're every year. I was looking back at Wikipedia, it feels like obviously it happened pre Titanic, but post Titanic, the sort of floodgates opened for these big blockbusters that also had this kind of prestigy thing to it. And also you add like the very modern, like, computer effects and all that, like Lord of the Rings, obviously, would be the next thing that kind of like, satisfied both the sort of serious cinema people and the people who want the big spectacle. And Frankenstein seems to be that movie this year.

Alison Wilmore (19:55)

Yeah. Like, I mean, these are movies, right, where they often get nominated for Best Picture, but the. The categories they actually win in are technical categories. Like Dune, I think.

Bilga Abiri (20:06)

Right.

Alison Wilmore (20:06)

Like, Dune got nominated for a lot of things, but what it won was like Best Music, Best Sounds, Cinematography Productions. Like, it was like it was not the big. What do they call them? Like, the big awards. The.

Bilga Abiri (20:17)

I mean, the one I will always think about is Fury Road.

Alison Wilmore (20:20)

Yes, of course. Which is like the classic.

Bilga Abiri (20:21)

Which is classic because also it's. Obviously it deserved Best Picture, but also earlier in that night, it was winning all these technical awards. And I think a lot of us, like, briefly got our hopes up.

Benjamin Frisch (20:34)

It really seemed that that whole evening. And it was fun because it was a George Miller production and it was Mad Max. And so each successive round of Australians that went up to take the awards was kind of kookier than the last. It just kind of kept getting weirder and weirder. You're like, okay, maybe this is really something. And then of course it didn't, because there is still that sort of threat, like membrane separating these big technical achievements. Like, even though Dune kept winning that year, I didn't think that was going to win Best Picture. And it didn't. You know, Return of the King did win. So eventually they wore them down. After three Lord of the Rings movies, Titanic obviously won, but, like, it is rare for these big. Like Avatar didn't win in its first, you know. Well, I mean, yet, we don't know. Maybe. Maybe Avatar 4 will make a comeback.

Unidentified Participant 1 (21:17)

That's because the craft categories, the voting bodies are specifically the people who work.

Benjamin Frisch (21:22)

In those for the nominations. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then everyone gets to vote for, you know, the actual work.

Alison Wilmore (21:29)

Yeah. And I do think there is a perception that, you know, it like these movies, which often tend to be genre y genre adjacent, that they're giant spectacles and you can salute that by not like, you know, like saluting their technical expertise, but that there is somehow something less serious about them as a kind of artistic achievement. So you wouldn't give them the, like, big prizes.

Benjamin Frisch (21:50)

It's why it's rare to see acting nominations for these movies. Like, like, Ian McKellen got in for the first Lord of the Rings. Obviously, Elordi's in here. Titanic got two. Titanic is kind of more of a. It's not like fantasy or action. Yeah, but I think, yeah, like, like, like someone from Avatar was never going to get nominated for. Even though that first movie got nine. Nine nominations. It just wasn't going to happen.

Alison Wilmore (22:11)

Yeah. Or something like the Last Jedi. Right. You're like, you can get technical nominations. You're not going to get, like.

Benjamin Frisch (22:16)

Yeah, I mean, Babu Frick deserved an Oscar nomination for the third Star wars, but, you know, and like, you know, you watch, like, Furiosa, which kind of flamed out in general, but, like, Chris Hemsworth is legitimately incredible in that movie. Like, it's like this big Shakespearean performance.

Unidentified Participant 1 (22:30)

Also.

Alison Wilmore (22:30)

Where's a fake nose? A classic sign of good acting.

Benjamin Frisch (22:33)

That's right.

Richard Lawson (22:33)

Yeah.

Alison Wilmore (22:34)

Yeah, that's serious acting right there.

Benjamin Frisch (22:35)

I think he got it from Stephen Daldry from the Hours costume closet.

Alison Wilmore (22:39)

Like, it's your turn now. Yes.

Benjamin Frisch (22:41)

Yeah.

Unidentified Participant 1 (22:41)

But I guess if you have. The entire voting body is voting on, like, best sound editing or whatever, and actors make up the largest portion. Is there some kind of, like, I kind of wonder what they look for in terms of those categories.

Alison Wilmore (22:57)

I assume, like many of us, a lot of people in other parts of the academy really don't know what good sound editing is. You know, like, I think that a lot of these categories. Yeah, you're. You're just kind of being like, this seems like a good achievement. Like, this is a place to salute your achievement.

Benjamin Frisch (23:11)

You know, there was some rubric that you could. That I. You could kind of roughly follow back in the day before they. So only very recently. Well, so it used to be just best sound. Then for years they split it up into sound mixing and sound editing, and now it's back to just best sound for whatever reason. But it was separated. There was kind of a through line where you could say if a movie has music, if it's a musical or whatever, that will get mixing because it's balancing vocals and instruments and all that. And then the best sound editing would be, like, special effects. So like foley work or digital stuff like that. So I would go to like, a bigger kind of spectacle movie that was. But, like, that didn't even always really match up. But I think a lot of times they're just like, oh, that was the fun blockbuster. So let Me vote for that in this technical visual effects or whatever.

Alison Wilmore (23:55)

Yeah. Do we feel like Frankenstein is a blockbuster? I mean, it certainly is. It announces its desire to have, like, to operate on a grand scale quite early on.

Benjamin Frisch (24:07)

But, like, I'll tell you this.

Alison Wilmore (24:09)

Yes. I mean, it's also obviously a Netflix movie, we should say, which, like, makes it impossible to gauge from one of the traditional metrics of a blockbuster, which.

Bilga Abiri (24:15)

Is to say, like, did get a theatrical release. And it was interesting because, I mean, Guillermo del Toro himself on Twitter and elsewhere was kind of sort of promoting this and talking about how, you know, they were selling out all these theaters. Of course, Netflix doesn't report it, so we don't really know it, but it did kind of expand, and it actually had, like, a real theatrical life. We have no idea what kind of money it made, and I don't think it was ever wide enough to, you know, qualify as, like, technically qualify as a blockbuster. But, you know, a lot of people obviously watched it on Netflix, I'm sure. Or at least I'm sure they did.

Benjamin Frisch (24:51)

Yeah. No, I would think so. And, like, I was at a dinner at the Savannah Film Festival. I got invited to a dinner with Oscar Isaac, and I. It was in the basement of this really great restaurant in Savannah. The dinner for Train Dreams the night previous was upstairs. And I was like, oh, they're putting. But because it was more dungeony, it was more Frankenstein y upstairs. And for whatever reason, it was me and, like, six other gay guy journalists. And then Oscar Isaac walks in, and he's like, what's happening? But anyway, at that dinner, there was someone from Netflix with us at the dinner, and Oscar had mentioned that it was playing in theaters, and this person from Netflix was like, yeah, actually, we're gonna keep it in theaters. And Oscar was like, really? I had no idea, because he said it was doing well.

Bilga Abiri (25:34)

Yeah.

Benjamin Frisch (25:35)

But again, we don't know any numbers, but I think it has this sort of aura of a blockbuster.

Bilga Abiri (25:39)

And I will say, I mean, having watched it now on Netflix as well, but seeing it at Venice on the big screen there, it looked so, so much better on a big screen. Like, it really does deserve a big screen.

Alison Wilmore (25:55)

Yeah. That's interesting, because, Ben, you had observed to me before we started this that you thought it maybe looked better on a laptop screen.

Unidentified Participant 1 (26:01)

Well, so the first time I watched it, I watched it at home, as Netflix intended.

Bilga Abiri (26:05)

Sure, yeah. On your phone, on my tv.

Unidentified Participant 1 (26:08)

And I have a nice tv. But the second time I watched it, I watched it also as Netflix intended on my laptop while playing a video game. And I do feel like I noticed less of the things that bothered me visually when it was on a smaller screen. Specifically, the sets and the lighting just meshed a little more when I just didn't have so much space to consider.

Benjamin Frisch (26:32)

Them in the video game. Were you at the level where Victor takes Elizabeth out to dinner or whatever.

Alison Wilmore (26:38)

Dialogue tree comes out, and you're like, what to say, what to say?

Bilga Abiri (26:41)

What were the visual things that bothered you?

Unidentified Participant 1 (26:44)

I guess the first time I watched it, the sets just, like, they're beautifully constructed, but they look like sets, but they just don't look real. As opposed to the costumes, which I think are wonderful.

Bilga Abiri (26:59)

Well, it's something that about this film that I find fascinating and at times troublesome. It does, you're right. I mean, it does look. I don't wanna say fake, but it does look kind of like, if I'm being less generous, the Disneyland version of this world. Like, there's a scene. I mean, it's just kind of a. It's not even like a particularly visually significant scene, but when he's hiding out in the cottage and there's this kind of stone wall behind him. And the stone wall. Watching it last night, I was like, looking at it, I'm like, that stone wall looks like, literally, like a Disneyland story.

Benjamin Frisch (27:42)

The side of the tavern in Pirates of the Curve.

Alison Wilmore (27:44)

Yeah.

Bilga Abiri (27:44)

Yeah. But I think it's partly intentional. Like, I do think that Guillermo del Toro has this storybook conception of these worlds and that aren't particularly lived in. Like, he wants them to be kind of like this almost like a distancing element. The sort of picture book kind of fantastical spaces that don't feel particularly lived in or real. Guillermo del Toro is a filmmaker who's made a number of movies I do like, but I'm always baffled by how I don't particularly gravitate to his work in the way that I would expect. Because I love maximalism. Right? Yeah, I love maximalism. Tracking shots, elaborate, fantastical creations. I'm a Paolo Sorrentino and Terry Gilliam dead ender. Like, I love those guys. I love this style of filmmaking.

Benjamin Frisch (28:39)

So you have to go in a can for the rest of your life, is what I'm saying.

Bilga Abiri (28:42)

I love this style of filmmaking. And there's a lot of stuff in del Toro's films I like, and a number of his films that I do like, but. But I often I watch them and I'm like, I don't feel transported into his world. He's got great Visual imagination.

Alison Wilmore (28:57)

But his.

Bilga Abiri (28:57)

Situational imagination or his kind of imagination of incident is a little more mundane.

Alison Wilmore (29:04)

Yeah, I find there's something, I think I found increasingly stifling about it. Like, he's clearly thought through these so obsessively. Like, but, you know, as opposed to someone, say, like a Tim Burton, where there is that kind of maximalism. But it's, it feels, I don't know, like, it's hard to say, like, lived in, because, like, Tim Burton's things are also outrageous and like, Max, but, like, they.

Benjamin Frisch (29:22)

Tim Burton at his best, too. Like, 80s 90s.

Alison Wilmore (29:24)

But there is, like, a kind of coherence to the world that, like, makes it feel like, not quite lived in, but you believe that these characters are living in this world. You know, Whereas I feel oftentimes, like, with more recent Del Toro films, like, my eyes keep drifting away from the action to the backdrops because he's, like, thought about them so much, but they are almost, like, overwhelming the actual content of the film. I mean, like, I, I, I think I've even maybe said this on this podcast, but, like, with Nightmare Alley, a film that is supposed to be this kind of lurid exploration into, like, the dark depths of human nature and all of that, the thing that always stuck in my mind is, like, Cate Blanchett's incredible 1930s, like, Art Deco office, you know, And I'm like, it's a beautiful thing, but that should not be the first image that sticks in my head. But it, I mean, I think that is the thing that I feel like he thought the most about. Yeah.

Bilga Abiri (30:13)

I mean, in Frankenstein, for example, and I, I'll say, Frankenstein is not a movie I dislike. There's a lot of stuff I like.

Alison Wilmore (30:20)

Like it the best of.

Bilga Abiri (30:21)

I mean, I actually, on the whole, enjoy this film mainly because of Elordi's performance. But, you know, early on, you know, outside the ship, when the monster shows up and is just, like, throwing down, like, throwing sailors all over the place. I mean, it's a scene that I think is probably about five minutes long, feels like ten or longer even. And as I'm watching it, I just, My attention just starts to drift. Right. You know, like, I'm watching it and he's like, you know, supposedly this is an action scene. This happens later, too, where I'm just like, oh, you know, what am I gonna make for dinner tonight?

Alison Wilmore (30:53)

You know, like, if I catch the.

Bilga Abiri (30:55)

9:05 train, I can be home by 11:30. And it's like, you know, and I usually try to pay attention during These things. And the film is like. It feels like it really wants to command your attention, but, like, what's happening? I'm. Oh, yeah, the big guy's throwing sailors around, of course. Or he's ripping somebody's.

Alison Wilmore (31:13)

And it's also like, that scene you're supposed to be like, these are, like, desperate men who are really worried they're going to die out here in, like, you know, on this, like, doomed expedition to the North Pole under this captain that they don't trust, and they're being told to work themselves to death, to, like, dig this ship out of the ice so they can keep going. You feel like, none of that desperation because. Yeah, yeah.

Benjamin Frisch (31:34)

I mean, I always think back to. I don't forget how many years ago it was, but that great New Yorker profile of Del Toro where it's kind of documenting his getting ready to, like. I don't know if he was ready to shoot it, but certainly in pre. Pre production for at the Mountains of Madness or whatever that the Lovecraft thing is. And the writer of the piece goes into his workshop and all these models and little monster figurines and all of the sort of stuff of his head kind of made manifest, and I think that's where he excels. But I think when I actually see the movies, I feel like I'm watching little figurines on a set design model. Like, I think he's such a good conceptualist. But then, yeah, he doesn't, ironically enough, given that it's Frankenstein, give it that spark of life that I really want.

Alison Wilmore (32:21)

Yeah, I mean, I've kind of, like, jokingly, but not really jokingly. I mean, I really like the Shape of Water. I really like Trans Labyrinth. But, like, my favorite movies of his are Hellboy 2 and Blade II, and I think that is. Blade 2 is incredible. It feels like he is freed up in those movies to feel like, you know, less of this pressure to also be like. And in a funny way, you know, as he's leaned into being like, I want to find these kind of, like, perverse, dark things. I feel like there is, like, weirder, freakier stuff in those movies because, like, it kind of comes out around the edges than when he has tried really hard to actually pursue it directly.

Bilga Abiri (32:57)

Well, it's like another scene in Frankenstein early on when, you know, we see Victor's father feeding his mom the steak, right? He's like, you gotta eat the steak. You know, the salt's good for you. And as soon as he feeds her the steak, I remember thinking, oh, now we're gonna see a little droplet of blood run down, and sure enough, that's what happens. And I'm like, this is supposed to be. I feel like this is supposed to be, like, a kind of a dark moment, and instead, it's kind of just a predictable moment. And there are, like, moments like that throughout the film that sort of. I'm like, I kind of know what I'm. I know what's gonna happen. He's gonna lift the guy up and the brain's gonna fall out. Like, you know, and maybe that just is a measure of how just jaded and cynical I am. I mean, you know, I will say my wife loves Del Toro's movie. Like, she's a horror fiend, and she loves his movies. And I remember, you know, she was like. Like, you gave a negative review to Crimson Peak. What the fuck is wrong with you? You know, like, so there are a lot of people really, you know, love this stuff. So sometimes I watch the films and I think to myself, I didn't really respond to it. And sometimes I wonder if it's just more of a me problem than anything else. I'm also not a fan of Pan.

Alison Wilmore (34:07)

I mean, I will say, like, in Crimson Peak, the part of that movie that really comes to life to me is Chastain. I think Chastain is delightful in that movie and is, like, really giving. Like, I think the whole. She's great, yeah. But also, like, giving the kind of thing that I felt like the rest of the movie was aiming for, but felt like the rest of the movie felt much more beautiful. Like, incredibly incredible looking, but, like, kind of dramatically inert to me.

Bilga Abiri (34:27)

And I think that at the same time, you know, you talked about, you know, his conceptual mastery and watching Frankenstein. And I think I even said this in my review. As much as I, like, I have. I have a big problem with the first half of the movie. I think Isar Isaac is, like, totally misgassed, which we can get into. And then Elordi comes in and just absolutely breathes life into the movie. But then I'm like, well, that kind of makes sense for Frankenstein. I wonder if part of this is intentional, and maybe he's kind of going too far in one direction and sort of handicapping the movie a little bit. But. But I feel like. I mean, the whole thing has been conceptualized so that Elordi comes in, and he is, in fact, as you guys said, like, the spark of life that kind of gives the movie its soul. And there is this whole question throughout the movie of where is this creature's soul? And so it kind of makes sense that, like, the first part of the movie, it kind of does not have a soul, and then the creature comes in, and suddenly it has one. So there's a part of me that's like. I mean, it would be too perverse for, you know, del Toro just, like, sacrifice his movie for that. But there is something weirdly compelling about the way Elordia comes in and just basically breathes life into this thing.

Benjamin Frisch (35:39)

And I think it's interesting that a lot of. At least the early stretch of Part two, a lot of the ornate production design is gone, and he's the special effect, you know? And I think that ratio, for me, works better than the opposite, I guess.

Bilga Abiri (35:53)

And it changes visually, too. I mean, you know, first half of the movie, Oscar Isaac is often backlit, which I think is a mistake as well, because then we really don't get to see much of his face. And, you know, that's kind of where the drama should live, right? But once it becomes the creature story, once it becomes the monster story, he's in light, right? I mean, the light is shining on him, and we see his face, we see all his features, and that is, I think, intentional. Like, I think that is something that, you know, that's part of the film's design and also explains why suddenly, like, we're seeing a face, a human face, the monster's face, but also a human face. And suddenly, like, we're starting to recognize real emotions and starting to feel something.

Alison Wilmore (36:37)

But also, I don't know. Like, Del Toro has said that he originally thought for a while that this would be two movies, you know, like, the first would be the Victor Frankenstein version, and then the second would be the creature. And it just seems so disastrous to me because already, the first would he.

Benjamin Frisch (36:51)

Add new songs for the second one.

Alison Wilmore (36:52)

Though, you know, no one would like them, though. They'd each get one. One new song. But I. I do think the major weakness of this movie for me is just how much leans. It is so much more interested in and sympathetic to the monster. And I feel like, well, one, you know, this movie actually, at certain points is you are the monster, Victor Frankenstein. And you're like, yeah, but also, like, I don't think that you. You know, like, if you were going to make a whole separate movie just about this guy, first you have to find some soul to him as well. Like. Like, even though he is doing these hubristic, like, kind of awful, doomed things, you also have to, like. Like, understand him. In some way and sympathize with him in some way. And he is just so kind of like, off putting from the beginning that it is really difficult to latch onto him in that first half.

Bilga Abiri (37:45)

If you're going to tell the full Frankenstein story, Frankenstein has to be your protagonist at some point, you know, and here's where, you know, I should also say I am a fan of Kenneth Branagh's Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, a film that famously, everyone hated when it came out, including me. I hated it when it came out and kind of almost destroyed Branagh's career as, like, a serious director at the time. But then over the years, I've gone back to it and now I actually love it. And that movie leaves me in tears now and we can get into sort of the performance stuff. But it does also make me think, well, maybe there's a world in which 20 years from now, I watch this Frankenstein and I'm like, wait, I had it wrong. I love it now.

Alison Wilmore (38:28)

I am so curious about. I saw the Browneau Frankenstein. Oh, it's like 1994, right in theaters when I was very young. And it is very, like, imagery from. That is. I haven't seen it since. I'm very curious to go back and watch it. But also, it's so seared in my brain. Like. Like, that movie has much freakier imagery than the Del Toro by far. Like, just like all kind the amniotic fluid, like the all. Like, there's just like. It does the whole bride thing, which is like, kind of just like gestured to in. In this version, you know, like, it. It is filled with some really dark, genuinely weird imagery and I've never forgotten it.

Unidentified Participant 3 (39:15)

David.

Unidentified Participant 2 (39:15)

Yes.

Unidentified Participant 3 (39:16)

I am so excited about this episode's sponsor.

Unidentified Participant 2 (39:19)

Yes, me too.

Unidentified Participant 3 (39:20)

You might truly be the most excited I've ever had for anything to sponsor this podcast. Today's episode.

Unidentified Participant 2 (39:26)

We're excited to, like, sponsors that tell you how to, like, help your finances.

Benjamin Frisch (39:29)

Hey, easy.

Unidentified Participant 2 (39:30)

Okay, okay, Sorry, sorry, sorry.

Benjamin Frisch (39:32)

Easy.

Unidentified Participant 3 (39:33)

Today's episode of Blank Check is brought to you by Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie.

Unidentified Participant 2 (39:39)

Nirvana, the band, the show, the movie. Marie's here too, because everybody's so excited.

Richard Lawson (39:43)

Yeah, I love this movie. I mean, I love this band, this show, this movie.

Unidentified Participant 3 (39:46)

Yes. Important correction. This film is finally coming to theaters. February 13th is the start of the theatrical rollout from our friends at Neon.

Unidentified Participant 2 (39:55)

Mion's Bringing it out.

Unidentified Participant 3 (39:56)

We have been waiting impatiently almost a year to see this film. We saw this at south by Southwest.

Richard Lawson (40:02)

One of the best screenings of my life.

Unidentified Participant 3 (40:04)

Truly Truly, it was an unbelievable experience. Ben, you were there, had a blast.

Unidentified Participant 2 (40:11)

And I had never seen or engaged me neither show previously, neither in the group. Don't really need it. It was like 7 of the context to enjoy.

Unidentified Participant 3 (40:18)

Absolutely.

Benjamin Frisch (40:19)

It's a big thing.

Richard Lawson (40:20)

I think you need to know, like.

Unidentified Participant 3 (40:21)

What Toronto is because you knew nothing other than us hyping you up for you. Well, this was the.

Unidentified Participant 2 (40:26)

We should say it's a city in Canada.

Richard Lawson (40:28)

Yes.

Unidentified Participant 2 (40:29)

I went in. You guys had just been like, it's the best thing ever. And not just you, other people. I can't believe how good. And I was like, this is so overhyped.

Unidentified Participant 3 (40:37)

And here's the great thing about dating.

Benjamin Frisch (40:38)

I'm.

Unidentified Participant 2 (40:39)

I'm walking in like I felt mad about it, where I was just like, they've. They've primed it too much.

Unidentified Participant 3 (40:43)

I like that you acknowledge this because sometimes if we tell you something's good, I see you go like, you put your fists up.

Unidentified Participant 2 (40:48)

Well, I'm just like, relax, because I need to. I can't go in with too much hype because that's not good for my critical experience of a movie. And then I thought it was better than the hype.

Unidentified Participant 3 (40:57)

This is the thing. This movie is truly a miracle. I think it is the funniest movie of the last 10 years, easily. And listeners of the show know I am often bemoaning the state of the theatrical comedy. And this is a movie that provides the thing I've been longing for, which is you go see this with a crowd. It is just electric. Every five seconds, rolling, laughter. And the movie just builds and builds, builds and builds. This is a movie from Matt Johnson. Yes, Director BlackBerry. One of my favorite movies the last couple of years. Him and Jay McCarroll started as a web series, became a TV series, and now is a movie. But you don't need to know any of that. This works as a clean entry point. It's a movie about two friends who are obsessed with their band playing at one venue.

Unidentified Participant 2 (41:42)

They want to play at the Rivoli.

Alison Wilmore (41:43)

They want to play it.

Unidentified Participant 3 (41:44)

All you need to know about these guys. Before the lights went down at the south by Southwest screening, I believe you turned to me and said, what do I need to know? And I said, all you need to know is they want to play the.

Unidentified Participant 2 (41:52)

River, they gotta play the Riv. I've, you know, I've been to Toronto many times. I've stayed.

Richard Lawson (41:55)

Have you been to the Rivoli?

Unidentified Participant 2 (41:56)

Never. I've stayed on Queen west though, and I've certainly walked by the Rivoli many times. And I was like, oh yeah, the Rivoli there.

Unidentified Participant 3 (42:03)

It's not Carnegie Hall.

Unidentified Participant 2 (42:04)

No, it's a bar.

Unidentified Participant 3 (42:05)

You never see these guys.

Bilga Abiri (42:06)

What do you mean?

Richard Lawson (42:07)

It's the most important music venue in Canada.

Unidentified Participant 3 (42:10)

You never see these guys practice their music. But all you know is that everybody episode starts with, here's the plan. Here's how we play the Rivoli, right? We got to play the Rivoli. And this movie starts from there and explodes in unbelievable ways. I think this movie is truly like a magic trick beyond just how funny it is and for how much. It's caked in the deep lore of this Nirvana the Band the show universe that's existed for 15 years. You can just go in knowing nothing and be blown away. And for a movie that seems kind of slapdash and roughly made from the start, it starts to pull off genuine like cinematic magic tricks where you cannot believe how this thing was made.

Unidentified Participant 2 (42:48)

What was my letterbox review, Griff? Did you see it?

Benjamin Frisch (42:50)

No.

Unidentified Participant 3 (42:50)

Please tell me.

Unidentified Participant 2 (42:51)

Lol. How did they make this? Truly, that was how I found it.

Richard Lawson (42:54)

How did this get made?

Unidentified Participant 2 (42:55)

No, but man, I was also just like, how did they make this? I don't get it.

Unidentified Participant 3 (42:59)

You don't understand how they're getting away with it legally. You don't understand how it was cleared for release. And there is a melding of of scripted and non scripted them engaging with real people on the street where the line between what is planned and what is not boggles your brain. It was my favorite thing I saw.

Unidentified Participant 2 (43:18)

All of 2025 and now it's coming out in 2026. Now listen, I do have to do some talking points, okay? Nirvana the Band the Show the Movie is in theaters February 13th. Get tickets. Now we must say this. Nirvana the Band the Show the Movie. They're very clear that we have to say the title of this show the Movie.

Unidentified Participant 3 (43:37)

Why? It's a really simple, easy title.

Unidentified Participant 2 (43:39)

Nirvana the man, the show the Movie. It really is a kind of like going cold, expecting something fun. I don't think you need too much more than that. No, I know it sounds unwieldy or whatever, but just like I think you're going to have a pretty good time.

Unidentified Participant 3 (43:53)

If you trust our opinion at all. Take this recommendation. Don't look it up. Go in and I really, really doubt there is any chance you will be Disappointed.

Unidentified Participant 2 (44:05)

In theaters February 13th. Get your tickets now. Nirvana the Band the Show the Movie.

Unidentified Participant 1 (44:18)

Do you have a relationship with Frankenstein as a franchise?

Benjamin Frisch (44:22)

We don't Know each other that well. We've run into each other at things.

Bilga Abiri (44:26)

That's not what I heard.

Benjamin Frisch (44:27)

Well, with the monster, that's a different story. Talk about tossing sailors around. But my sister and I loved the Kenneth Branagh version. We were probably. I was probably 11 or so, or 12 maybe, when it came out on video. And we rented that thing so often, we would come home from the video store. My mom would be like, frankenstein again. It was like Clueless Days of Confused, a couple other movies, and then that. Cause we thought it was so ornate and scary and grim, and there was something really visceral about it. And it was also because just to. My Frankenstein origin story is when I was a bit younger than that, my mom had gotten. Fisher Price used to do these kind of books on tape of classics with a sort of graphic novel comic book thing to follow along with as you listen to it. And the production value on the tapes was actually pretty good. They had, like, from what I remember, good actors.

Bilga Abiri (45:24)

I had one of these.

Benjamin Frisch (45:25)

Yeah. And we had Frankenstein, and we had that and 1001 Arabian Nights or whatever. But Frankenstein was really the favorite because it was so grim and gothic and scary and, like, people got strangled and a kid got killed, you know, and we thought we were very mature, and it scared the hell out of me. The illustration of the monster was terrifying, but that was firmly like, Victor made a mistake, but good and compelling protagonist. Monster, tragic, but also bad. And that was a much clearer sort of. And maybe it's not as nuanced or interesting, but, like, that was a Frankenstein I could really respond to. And I think the Branagh version does that as well, I guess.

Alison Wilmore (46:04)

Yeah. I mean, I didn't. I don't have a very storied relationship with Frankens Frankenstein as a kind of concept monster franchise. I was always much more of a vampire girl, obviously, like, as a. As a, you know, middle school and teenage goth girl. Like, I was like, it's sexy. Let me wear lace and eyeliner. Things that Frankenstein can't do, obviously.

Benjamin Frisch (46:26)

Well, no.

Alison Wilmore (46:26)

Well, a Frankenstein. If you're a Frankenstein, you've got a loom and you've got to do other stuff, and you have a bolt through your neck. We all know this. These are the.

Benjamin Frisch (46:33)

You also can't be goth and scared of fire. That's not really.

Alison Wilmore (46:36)

Yeah, it just doesn't work how. All the candles. You've got to light so many candles if you're Goth.

Unidentified Participant 2 (46:41)

So.

Alison Wilmore (46:41)

Yeah, I. But, I mean, I saw, like, the 1931 version. Like, I feel like when I was maybe a teenager or something. And that. That also felt very seared into my. My mind.

Benjamin Frisch (46:52)

And I think, is that classic? Like, bolts and neck? Like, is that that or no, Is that Karloff?

Alison Wilmore (46:57)

It's the Karloff. And it also. I think it has, like, something. And I. We should talk about this. Also, in comparison to the. The kind of like Oscar Isaacs kind of like ego driven, kind of also incel, you know, Victor Frankenstein, the, you know, monster in this is like, so much more just like both, like, handsome and also, like, just like wronged. You know, like, and kind of, if not totally blameless, he does commit a lot of acts of violence. Like, not the same kind of acts of violence. Like, famously, in the James Whale version, there is that scene where the monster runs into this little girl by the side of the water, and the little girl is showing him to throw flowers in the water. And then it becomes clear that he run out of flowers, throws a little girl in the water and she drowns. And it is such a great uneasy element where you're like, you have this creation who is not necessarily actively malicious, but is also frightening, even without knowing. And I think to remove that element from this version of the monster, you know, Del Toro is like, that's his big thing, right? I love my. Like, the monsters, like, the real monsters are always.

Benjamin Frisch (48:08)

Well, in this, he's like the monster. He's like the black sheep rejected. You know, Arty's son. I mean, I think he, like, went to Skidmore or something. Like, it's okay.

Alison Wilmore (48:17)

Well, I mean, like, that's another thing about, you know, my. My love for Hellboy 2 and Blade 2 is that he. And I think he has even said as much. He has done, like, test runs of this type of character before, right? Like, both played by Luke Goss in these movies. What is this? The Reaper? Was it Reaver? I can't remember. Blade 2? The villain who is also pallid looking and turns out to be the son, right? Like the kind of estranged son who was experimented on by his Vampire Lord father and is resentful and now wants to kind of destroy him. And then the Prince Nuada in Hellboy ii, also this kind of alabaster looking, resentful estranged son who, you know, is mad at his dad. It's. He definitely. This idea has been sticking around and I don't know how much it is related actually to Frankenstein versus just, like, these ideas that he wants to deal with and, like, has been grappling with multiple times in his work that he is now bringing To Frankenstein, but, like, yes, the apparently extremely pale but beautiful, resentful son who in this case finally becomes, like, the flat out hero, not just the antagonist.

Benjamin Frisch (49:28)

Right? Yeah. And an action hero. And I think going back to the tossing the sailors around part, like, when I saw the trailer for this, I was like, oh, no. He's, like, super strong. It just, like, now it looks like a superhero movie. And, like, I think I just wanted it like a Frankenstein. And it's crazy to say this about the Branagh version, but, like, lower to the ground or, like, feeling a bit more human. And this just feels like, you know, in trying to get us to see the awesome power of this creation, he kind of over. It's overstated or something.

Unidentified Participant 1 (50:00)

Could some of these be, like, Netflix notes?

Alison Wilmore (50:03)

I wonder. I don't know how much. Like, I mean, the question of how much Netflix gives notes is, like, an eternal one. But I think with the auteur, they're kind of chosen. Auteur is. I don't know that they give any.

Benjamin Frisch (50:13)

Well, because the monster in this is supposed to be Vecna's brother. Right? So they're gonna get a spin off. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Alison Wilmore (50:21)

It's gonna be a sitcom, though.

Bilga Abiri (50:23)

I don't think. Think. I don't think Netflix gives notes to Del Toro anymore, especially at this point, because he's done a number.

Alison Wilmore (50:29)

What's funny, though, is that opening scene is like a classic Netflix opening scene where they're like, we have to start with the action. Like, you know, we have to keep people's attention.

Bilga Abiri (50:37)

That's true, but it's also. I mean, it makes perfect sense for.

Alison Wilmore (50:40)

The story to start that way.

Bilga Abiri (50:42)

But, yeah, my Frankenstein. I'll just tell very quickly. My very first introduction to it was we had, you know, before we moved to the US and discovered videotapes, we had Super 8 millimeter films of different movies and never a full feature, but, like, we had a lot of, like, three minutes of a Disney movie, that sort of thing. And then we had, like, the last.

Benjamin Frisch (51:10)

That's Bambi's mom dying.

Bilga Abiri (51:11)

Yeah. We had, like, the last reel of King Kong, and then we had the scene with the little girl from Frankenstein. So, like, I just watched that over and over and over and over.

Benjamin Frisch (51:23)

Jesus.

Bilga Abiri (51:24)

But there were some Laurel and Hardy things.

Benjamin Frisch (51:27)

The episode where Laurel dies.

Bilga Abiri (51:28)

Yeah, the episode where Hardy, like, you know, throws a girl in the water. But so that was kind of my introduction to it. And I don't even remember when I finally saw the. The full James Whale movie. I mean, it was still fairly Young, but Young Frankenstein. I probably saw Young Frankenstein before I saw the full James Whale Frankenstein.

Benjamin Frisch (51:50)

Yeah.

Alison Wilmore (51:52)

So I don't know. How much do we feel like this. Like, Del Toro has said, Frankenstein was this incredibly formative text for him, like the James Bond movie, the book. Do we feel like this is him ultimately rendering the vision he's been trying to make the whole time?

Bilga Abiri (52:08)

I think so. I mean, I do feel. I mean, he's been working on it for so long, I'd be shocked if it wasn't. I mean, it does feel like this is the movie he wanted to make. I mean, the film is incredibly controlled. Right. I mean, it's a remarkable display of his vision. I think. It's like, I have problems with a lot of it, but nothing in it feels like a misstep on his part. Like, it all. Like, every decision feels like, oh, that's exactly the thing he wants to do.

Benjamin Frisch (52:35)

He didn't run out of time or whatever, not get the shot he wanted? Like, yeah, it feels like he got what he was.

Bilga Abiri (52:40)

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And I think that that's maybe. But maybe his empathy towards the monster or his, you know, ability to relate to that. To that character, maybe it sort of backfires a little bit in the fact that his. His vision of Victor Frankenstein is just so dull. Right. I mean, you know, it's a very big, broad performance by Oscar Isaac, but Oscar Isaac, as far as I'm concerned, is not the kind of actor who gives that kind of big, broad performance. Oscar Isaac, I think of as a much subtler actor. I love him in something like the Card Counter, Right. Or was it the Most Dangerous Year?

Benjamin Frisch (53:22)

Most Violent Year?

Bilga Abiri (53:22)

Most Violent Year. Like, I think he's. He's very good in those kind of slow burn parts where you're just kind of watching his face and just kind of watching things dawn and register on his face. Him sort of running around yelling like a crazy person. He's just a lot less interesting that way. In contrast to Kenneth Branagh, who is the king of big bellowing, laughing.

Benjamin Frisch (53:46)

What are you talking about? Come on. Subtle act.

Alison Wilmore (53:50)

And also, I mean, like, a great fit for playing a character who is kind of like this egotistical, you know, like, demanding of people.

Benjamin Frisch (53:57)

Again, I don't understand what you're imagining. I know Kenneth Branagh.

Alison Wilmore (54:01)

Yeah. I mean, I don't know, like. And this is a movie, this Frankenstein is a movie where, like, you know, Victor literally falls in love with his mother, right? Like, the same, like, Mia Goth playing, like, his beloved mother. He's fixated on. And then the woman he, like, sees his brother, fiance, who he's instantly, like, smitten with. You know, like, that should be a kind of, like, grand and slightly. Instead, it just feels like. I don't know nothing.

Bilga Abiri (54:26)

It feels so programmed.

Alison Wilmore (54:28)

Yeah.

Benjamin Frisch (54:28)

The Isaac thing is weird because I saw him on stage at the Public Theater in Hamlet. Like, God, it was almost a decade ago at this point, I think, and he was so incredible that I think my headline was, like, he's the best actor of his generation. I think he's been so good in the movies. You mentioned Builda. And I like when an actor goes big. And so I thought it would be kind of exciting to see Oscar Isaac do it here. And yet it just does not work. There's something a bit too kind of cliche about it or something. Like the British accent is sort of not work. I don't know. Like, Allison, what do you think?

Alison Wilmore (55:05)

I think. I also think Oscar Isaac is an incredible actor. I do think part of it is that I think he's a little too in tune to the idea that this character is supposed to be this, like, dislikable. I mean, like, so much of what's on the page with that character is already tilting him towards villainy, you know, like. Yeah, his fixation on this woman who, like, gives no real kind of reception. Right. Like, he, like.

Benjamin Frisch (55:32)

And she's never even, like, remotely.

Alison Wilmore (55:33)

No. And he, like, at a certain point, like, even berates her for, like, you know, like, not basically being, like, giving to him. Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, really. I mean, that's in the text, right? And then, yeah, like, his. The ways in which he instantly kind of turns on his creation. Right. Like, you know, in this. I mean, it's not a subtle screenplay, but, like, you know, his father is so incredibly hard on him, and he feels like he is just not the right son that his father wants. And whereas his brother, you know, he seems like the perfect child, and then immediately his own surrogate son, when his surrogate son is not, like, developing at the rate that he wants, he's like, you're useless to me. Like, you know, like, this is a disaster. Like, why did I even do this? I don't want. And becomes, like, abusive and awful to him. So, like, he's. There's so much on the page that is villainous, and I feel like Isaac just leans into that so much. I mean, it was interesting to me to read about Del Toro saying he wanted to cast this version of Victor Frankenstein, not just, like, as a mad scientist. But as like a kind of rock star.

Benjamin Frisch (56:34)

Right.

Alison Wilmore (56:34)

And like that the clothing was supposed to be inspired by like 60s and 70s, like.

Benjamin Frisch (56:39)

Well, the hat, that one hat after he does his presentation.

Alison Wilmore (56:41)

But I do not think that comes through in the performance. I think the performance like tilts more peevish and tilts. And I don't think that there's. I think there's a reason that he latched onto that, but I think it makes the character so difficult to attach to in any way ever. And I think if you're going to lean into the rock stardom that you want to be like, oh, this character is so compelling. But like the one time we see him kind of performing for an audience. Right. Of like all of the medical establishment.

Benjamin Frisch (57:11)

Being like the same people who told Charlie Hunnam he couldn't go to the Amazon. You know, it's the same exact.

Alison Wilmore (57:18)

Exactly. They're just waiting the whole time like that. It's a little known fact about older England is that they just had a bunch of guys in wigs waiting around to be like when young men came in to challenge their. Their preconceptions. Yeah, but I mean, like, that it doesn't feel like he is performing in this way to be like, look at how incredible I am. You know, from the beginning it's clear. Like, he's not. He's like, you know, already going to be driven out. Like, there's no sense of like, why he would have like, followers or like why people. Like, he's just from the beginning, such a kind of outlier and so off putting. Yeah.

Bilga Abiri (57:54)

We should feel sorry for this character and we really don't. And we should wonder what he's up to. I mean, that's. To me, that's Oscar Isaac's great power, is that you look at him and I mean, when he's acting, this is, you know, when he's being subtle or understated, you just sort of see the emotions kind of dance across his face and you start to wonder where he's going with this. And in his best roles, you know, that's marvelous. And here there's just no shading, no dimensionality, no sense of unpredictability or anything. He's just, you know, he's just kind of this like screaming guy. And you're watching because we've seen, I mean, you know, the movie is two creation sagas. Right. I mean, we see how Victor became the person he is and then we see what happened with the monster. And as a result, we have all this backstory of him we should feel like we understand something about this man, and we don't. We really don't. He becomes progressively more and more, like, one dimensional, you know?

Alison Wilmore (59:05)

Yeah. I mean, I thought about Inside Lewyn Davis, which, you know, is an incredible movie and has an incredible Oscar izing performance in it. And it is one that I think bears some relation in a little bit to this character of this. You know, he is someone who is, like, yearning for this kind of, like. For this ability to chase his, like, creative or artistic dream and realize his vision and to kind of, like, also be recognized, you know, for his genius, and never has that, and is also a character who does a lot of very dislikable things, you know, but, like, you have no trouble understanding that character and have no trouble, I think, like, empathizing with him, even when he can be, like, a piece of shit.

Benjamin Frisch (59:41)

I mean, his Hamlet was so good for that reason, but it was, like, so human. Even when he's acting. Well, play acting's crazy, or being petulant to Ophelia or whatever. Like, you got the. You felt so sad for him the whole time, and that's hard to do, you know, And I've always had issues with Llewyn Davis because I find that movie, like, I'm into it, and then it just gets a little too prickly and it puts me off or something. But the more I watch that movie, the more I appreciate what Isaac is doing in it. Yeah, yeah.

Alison Wilmore (60:08)

And I think that. But there is something missing at the core of this Frankenstein, which is to be like, the idea of wanting to best death, to be like, death is something we should not have to put up with. And this is born out of my own ego, but also my terrible loss of the only person in my life who showed me love and softness. It should be those two forces. It should be present. And you don't really know. I don't think in this movie you watch him and be like, I know why you're so obsessed with doing this impossible thing, you know, like trying to beat God. Like, I don't really know in this. It's entirely an academic kind of exercise for him.

Unidentified Participant 1 (60:44)

Yeah.

Bilga Abiri (60:45)

I mean, Isaac can do ambitious. He can do longing. Like, these are things that are within his powers as an actor to really convey and make impactful. It's almost like Del Toro didn't trust him, or Del Toro had, like, his visual style and his vision of the movie in hand before he cast that actor, you know, And I think it's a miscalculation on that part.

Benjamin Frisch (61:11)

Yeah. And I also, like, between Star wars and this, it's like I just would love him to ask Isaac to get back to the smaller stuff. I mean, he did do a play a couple years ago that transferred to Broadway. That was. I saw it. It was fine. He was good in it. But like, I just. I'm yearning for more of the, you know, most violent year. Llewyn Davis kind of.

Alison Wilmore (61:30)

Of. I mean, hell, Ex machina.

Benjamin Frisch (61:32)

Ex machina is incredible.

Alison Wilmore (61:34)

Another, another.

Benjamin Frisch (61:35)

And that's kind of mid range. Like, he's not too, too subtle in that, but you know, you know, he did that big Christian Bale epic about. Was it about Turkey and Armenia? Right. The Promise, you know, like, he's done kind of different sized things, but I just want him to. I want to see that sort of more present, accessible Oscar Isaac again. I don't know. It's been a while. It feels like.

Unidentified Participant 1 (62:00)

Can we talk about Mia Goth in this? I think she looks great.

Alison Wilmore (62:04)

She does look. I mean, she has an incredible face. I do feel like. I don't know, that performance is like almost just like, though, like, you know, like.

Unidentified Participant 1 (62:11)

But when she's wearing like a feather.

Alison Wilmore (62:13)

Headdress, like all of her like incredible veils, like, like. And the colors she's wearing, I think are amazing. But you know, when she keeps great veils. Amazing when she gives this speech about how. How she and the butterfly are basically the same. These like strange creatures. But like, like, I just, I feel like I'm like, that's every role you play me a goth is like, you know, like that. You're like. I'm like the, the delicate, weird butterfly.

Benjamin Frisch (62:37)

Like, again, it also feels expected. It's like if Del Toro makes a Frankenstein movie. Of course Mia Goth plays, you know, it just. It. It felt obvious in a way. Kind of like the brain's falling out of the head or whatever. I. I kind of expected exactly that performance and it's. And that's what's. What's given to us.

Alison Wilmore (62:54)

What do we think of Christel Faultz, though?

Benjamin Frisch (62:57)

Well, I mean, having just seen him in. In Luc Besson's Dracula, I think he.

Alison Wilmore (63:02)

Wasn'T acting in that, though.

Benjamin Frisch (63:03)

He had just gone by the set. That's right. He was like, oh, you guys are where we have common cause today on hunting the sponsor on second rewatch. I think Waltz is good. You know, I mean, he's doing his waltzy thing, but it really works here. And I also think that that desperate almost final scene where it's revealed that he has syphilis and he delineates, like, how it's gonna progress and it's gonna be horrible. Like, that, to me, is the sort of raw, squalid, squirming humanity that you're dying for from that whole first half of the movie.

Alison Wilmore (63:32)

Yeah. I mean, something. I think Del Toro pointed out this comparison himself, which I thought was funny, which is like, that there is an aspect to which, you know, Victor is the director and Waltz is playing, like, the studio.

Unidentified Participant 1 (63:46)

Yeah.

Alison Wilmore (63:47)

And especially in this case of this project, like his. Like, Del Toro's dream project, where they're like, you can have all the resources you want, but I will ask you for this one thing later. Maybe it will involve streaming.

Bilga Abiri (63:59)

Yeah.

Alison Wilmore (64:00)

But, yeah, sometimes you're also Ted Syphilis Sorrence. Right, right. Sometimes it's also, you're like, maybe you don't want to get all the resources you want in exchange for one thing. There's always a catch.

Benjamin Frisch (64:11)

Yeah, that's. Well, that's an interesting point. I like that. I just. My problem is. And it's not just with this movie, but maybe especially with this movie, but there are times I don't like some of the surreality of Del Toro's world. And in this, I'm just like, oh, so then Victor moves into Crimson Peak. Like, that house with the creepy staircase, the circular window up in the attic. Like, I feel like I've seen that a zillion times, not just in Del Toro movies. Like, it just. It didn't feel inventive. And so I didn't really know why he was doing this. And then when you get to the monster and that version and that performance, you're like, oh, okay. So there was a distinct idea of how to do this. But, yeah, like, you guys have already said that the first half of the movie feels like sort of. Prof. Just kind of going through the motions to get to where he wants to go. That's a problem when it's an hour and a half of the movie.

Alison Wilmore (65:01)

Yeah. I think also. I don't know. I think now if I just gonna keep steering the conversation back to Hellboy.

Bilga Abiri (65:07)

2.

Benjamin Frisch (65:09)

But I think it is nominated for best picture this year.

Alison Wilmore (65:11)

So I think, like, you look at, you know, this kind of like, comic book monster. In this case, comic book hero. But you're like, okay, he is a giant red guy, you know, has, like, a stone hand, has horns, is the son of the devil. May or may not stop talking about.

Benjamin Frisch (65:28)

Kenneth Branagh this way. This is getting ridiculous.

Alison Wilmore (65:31)

I respect his work as an actor, you know, may destroy the world someday, like, has like, genuine kind of like baggage in terms of the idea of actually being the hero. There is an aspect of the Elordi Frankenstein's monster here where I'm just like. It's almost like a. Like a kind of stereotype of like a YA fantasy thing where you're like, oh, it's so awful that I'm like. Of these both worlds. I'm just super strong and I'm immortal and I'm tall and, like, you know, hot and just striking looking and everyone hates me because of that. You know, you're like, kind of like, I don't know that your problems are real here.

Benjamin Frisch (66:08)

Get sorted into Gryffindor.

Alison Wilmore (66:09)

Yeah, I'm like. I'm like, I need, like, like real discomfort or real kind of like hazos from the reason. You know, like, it's funny, like when he first goes out into the real world and then he, like, has that moment with the kind of like the deer or whatever, and the people, like, shoot at him immediately, and we're like, why are they shooting at him? He mostly looks like a guy wearing a cloak. Like, there's no reason to look at him and immediately be like, what is that monster?

Benjamin Frisch (66:33)

They're super Prometheus. They know what things that look like that can do.

Bilga Abiri (66:36)

Well, there's that. That shot of him waking up and in that puddle of water with the castle burning. What I call the Prometheus shot. Yeah, it is. But that's the moment when the movie comes to life for me. Cause suddenly I saw that shot and I'm like, I'm up. Okay, what's happening next? Because it felt like such a dramatic change in both tone and also lighting that at that moment I thought, okay, wait, something interesting is about to happen. And it does. But you're right. I mean, the thing I keep thinking, sorry, this is just gonna turn into just a giant reclamation project for Kenneth Branhouse. Frankenstein, which is a movie still widely hated by people. But, you know, De Niro in that film is so pathetic, Right? And that pathos, that smallness actually works really well, especially contrasted with Branagh's kind of bellowing performance. And here, I mean, again, Elordi is fantastic, but there is like, the cards are kind of stacked. Like, it is kind of like, well, of course you're gonna love this guy, you know.

Benjamin Frisch (67:43)

Yeah. And one of the people looking after him, the younger woman on the farm, is Lauren Collins from the Next Generation. I mean. I mean, this is teen royalty all grown up. So that's another way that he's trying to win your affection.

Alison Wilmore (67:54)

Well, it's funny that even, you know, Frankenstein himself is like jealous of his supposedly, you know, nightmarish monster creature because he's like, you know, like the girl I like, she likes you more. And I mean that's an element that is like underplayed in the movie but is definitely like.

Benjamin Frisch (68:10)

So Frankenstein's a real Mary Sue.

Alison Wilmore (68:12)

Basically you're saying Mary sue, you know.

Unidentified Participant 2 (68:23)

David. Yes.

Unidentified Participant 3 (68:24)

Hello fresh.

Alison Wilmore (68:25)

Whoa.

Unidentified Participant 2 (68:26)

Hello fresh.

Unidentified Participant 3 (68:28)

Hello fresh. This new year, nothing hits like home cooking. Boy, do I know it. HelloFresh brings back the joy of the kitchen with recipes that feel good and taste delicious night after night. Feel good and taste delicious. That's a potent mix.

Unidentified Participant 2 (68:42)

Hellofresh. It's a very, very, it's, I feel like it's the number one meal kit service because like I'm always. Whenever you see one of those kind of recommendation websites with like, ah, here are all the options. Hellofresh, always at the top.

Unidentified Participant 3 (68:53)

It does feel like that, doesn't it?

Alison Wilmore (68:54)

Yeah.

Unidentified Participant 2 (68:54)

Over 100 mouth watering recipes each week. I'm going to take a look at some. I got some a loaded shawarma style chicken and rice bar. 30 minutes it takes to make this. I like protein veggie packed difficulty medium.

Benjamin Frisch (69:09)

Okay, what's the easiest?

Unidentified Participant 2 (69:10)

Okay, you want an easy one?

Unidentified Participant 3 (69:11)

Give me the easiest.

Benjamin Frisch (69:12)

All right, listen.

Unidentified Participant 2 (69:13)

One pan cheesy chicken tortilla melts dark meat, chicken green pepper, spicy cream sauce. 20 minutes difficulty easy. This looks pretty good.

Unidentified Participant 3 (69:22)

I like every one of those words.

Unidentified Participant 2 (69:23)

I love how like the menu at least like it tells you like what are the allergens, what may be, you know, little things might you need extra like some, some butter, some cooking oil but almost everything else is there different?

Unidentified Participant 3 (69:34)

People eat differently and with HelloFresh you can choose from 35 plus high protein weekly recipes including new Mediterranean and GLP friendly options made with wholesome ingredients like sustainably sourced seafood and 100% antibiotic and hormone free chicken.

Unidentified Participant 2 (69:51)

So hellofresh, I've used this. You should too. Go to hellofresh.com check10fm. That's check1 0fm.

Unidentified Participant 3 (70:01)

Yeah, I know this. This is a deal they've had for a long time. And you can finish speaking because there's no added bonus onto this deal to.

Unidentified Participant 2 (70:07)

Get free 10 free meals, right? Exactly. And what a free Zwilling knife.

Unidentified Participant 3 (70:13)

A free Zwilling knife. That's a $144.99 $0.99 value.

Unidentified Participant 2 (70:17)

You are correct on your third box offer. Valid while supplies last. Free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only varies by plan, but hellofresh.com check 10fm for 10 free meals and that freeze willing knife on your third box.

Benjamin Frisch (70:35)

Goodbye.

Alison Wilmore (70:45)

To bring this back around to the Oscars, like, this is, I think, like. Like, obviously, like, this incredible feat of production design, of costume design of, like, all of these things. Do we see this as a movie that is going to do well in those categories, or does. Is. Is this a movie that, like, is going to get nominated? It got. Got nominated for a lot of things, but then doesn't end up winning anything.

Unidentified Participant 1 (71:06)

Sinners is nominated for a lot of these same things, Right?

Benjamin Frisch (71:09)

Yeah. That's the thing, is that it's the other kind of. Of really, like, juggernaut blockbuster, but that also has the political weight behind it. And these great performances looks more alive as a movie. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I think that. Look, the Academy clearly really likes Del Toro. Something about, I think. I mean, Pan's Labyrinth thing was like, the. The sort of, like, broke the dam a little bit. And then obviously, Shape of Water performed so incredibly well. Nightmare Alley managing to get a Best Picture nomination when that movie was pretty, you know, tepidly received as something. So I would be surprised, in a way, if it went home with nothing. It's just a matter of, like, where is Sinners? Or something else a little bit weaker, you know.

Alison Wilmore (71:49)

Well, here's my other question. I feel like there was this moment, especially with Shape of Water, which, again, is a movie I like a lot, but I think is a movie that, at the time, everyone was like, can you believe this movie about a lady who, like, has sex with a fish man? Like, that's gonna win Best Picture, but it is actually, like, really not. Not that wild. It's a mental love story.

Bilga Abiri (72:10)

It's a remake of Splash.

Benjamin Frisch (72:11)

Yeah. I mean, exactly.

Bilga Abiri (72:13)

How do you rewatch Splash? Last year I was like, wait, this is the Shape of Water, right down.

Alison Wilmore (72:18)

To, like, the coolest.

Benjamin Frisch (72:19)

I've always said that Sally Hawkins is our modern Tom Hanks.

Alison Wilmore (72:22)

You have often said that. And I've been very confused until this point, and now suddenly, it makes sense. But, you know, Shape of Water is supposed to be, like, the wild, freaky choice. And I think it is, like. But it is, like, I think much gentler. And, like, actually, I mean, it is a kind of Beauty and the Beast story. Right. But without even the rage. Like, the monster in this is like, in many a Del Toro thing, actually like, the kind of most sympathetic and not misunderstood creature of them all. And Aside from, you know, like, that one hand gesture that Sally Hawkins gives to explains how she and the Fishman had their night together, it really. I think it doesn't get as freaky as maybe everyone would like to be. Like, from the description, I wonder if, like, maybe there was this. If. I don't know if it's del Toro seeing himself that way, but there was this moment where del Toro was going to be the kind of, like, the freaky side of the Academy. And like, now, actually, I feel like Yorgos Lanthimos is, like, much more like bringing the genuine, like, freaky stuff.

Benjamin Frisch (73:19)

You know, we talked about social mess.

Alison Wilmore (73:21)

But, like, is like, really kind of like, pushing harder in terms of, like, of doing weird stuff. Like, where does that leave del Toro? Is he, like, a safer choice?

Bilga Abiri (73:30)

Well, he's kind of. I mean, he's almost like kind of this establishment choice at this point. I mean, especially because he's one and has had the kind of. There is the kind of Oscar gauntlet, career gauntlet that you go through. You win, and then you become. You get nominated for things that people didn't expect you to be nominated. I mean, Spielberg is kind of the classic example. He's just there every year, you know, and so he's. Yeah, he's become kind of the establishment, but at the same time, it's. It is an interesting sign of how far we've come, you know, that Guillermo del Toro is, like Oscar royalty at this point. Like, he makes a movie and it's kind of like, yeah, it'll probably get nominated for Best Picture at this point. No matter what it is, you know, whether it's a remake of Frankenstein. I mean, it's not that common for, you know, these types of films to get nominated.

Benjamin Frisch (74:20)

I mean, I think probably Coppola would have loved if it was 30 something years ago.

Bilga Abiri (74:24)

Oh, yeah, Yeah. I mean, yeah, Coppola is a great example of that. I mean, you know, I mean, I love Bram Stoker's Dracula, but that's another film that at the time, a lot of people, including me, were kind of like, this is a little over the top. This. Not all this work. I'm not sure all these performances are doing what you want them to.

Benjamin Frisch (74:41)

I saw that in the theaters when I was about nine years old with my friend. Cause his parents were going to see. I believe they went to go see the Don Johnson Rebecca De Mornay thriller Guilty as Sin, and they were like, that's too grown up for you. So we'll have. We'll buy you tickets to Bram Stoker's Dracula. We'll have this younger couple, like, you know, young adults escort you in as if they're your, like, babysitters or whatever, and then so the ushers won't kick you out or whatever. And about 30 minutes into the Coppola movie, I was like, I think I'm too young for this. Like, I just sort of almost like. I mean, I sat through the whole.

Alison Wilmore (75:15)

Thing, but, yeah, I had, like, looked up. It was referenced somewhere. I looked up the. What was described on YouTube in the clip as, like, Dracula Bites Lucy. And someone in the comments was like, oh, is that what we're calling it? I'm like, yeah, that is a scene I should probably not have seen when I. When I.

Benjamin Frisch (75:33)

The age I did Belga. How are you feeling about. I mean, I know that Oscars aren't your number one interest in the movie world, but how are you feeling about this year's race? We had joked at the top of the show that we were a little hard on Train Dreams and maybe a little less hard on Hamnet, but we had some critiques. Do you feel like. Do you like the 10 or are there favorites among them?

Bilga Abiri (75:54)

I like the 10. I mean, I don't think there's a single movie on there that I would say I don't like.

Benjamin Frisch (76:00)

Okay, that's great.

Bilga Abiri (76:01)

That's great. I mean, there are films that I. I'm more ambivalent about than others. My top four movies this year were Train Dreams, Caught by the tides, hamnet, and F1. So.

Benjamin Frisch (76:14)

Hey, so you did really well.

Bilga Abiri (76:15)

I did well. You know, and. And it's funny because I feel like the three nominees in that four are, like, you know, have all become, like, villains of one, you know, one form or another. This season with F1, everyone assuming that F1 somehow took the place of it was just an accident, when clearly it was Begonia that took the place of it.

Benjamin Frisch (76:39)

I would agree.

Bilga Abiri (76:41)

But, yeah, you know, what was your.

Benjamin Frisch (76:45)

Kind of response to either the Hamnet or the Train Dreams backlash? As much as.

Alison Wilmore (76:49)

Is there a Train Dreams backlash?

Benjamin Frisch (76:51)

There was briefly on Train Dreams.

Bilga Abiri (76:52)

I wrote a whole article about it, the Train Dreams Wars. When it first showed up on Netflix, there was this initial wave of people kind of hating on it, but also kind of being baffled by the love for it. This was before it was nominated, which I thought was actually delightful. I mean, even though I absolutely adore Train Dreams, I was like, this is kind of the power of Netflix, their ability to get a movie out in front of everybody. And even if it's just for a weekend, get them talking about it in a way, especially with a film like Train Dreams.

Benjamin Frisch (77:24)

Because.

Bilga Abiri (77:24)

Because you look at what the fate of Train Dreams would have been otherwise. It would have been picked up by a smaller distributor. It would have played IFC Center. It probably would not have, at any point become like a trending copy.

Benjamin Frisch (77:38)

It would come in that rubber banded pack of Magnolia DVD screeners, which they.

Bilga Abiri (77:42)

Don'T even send anymore, which I still. I mean, I cherished those. Me too. But so, you know, like, ultimately, Netflix buying that movie turned out well for it, even though, you know, a lot of us were kind of not upset, but a little concerned when. I mean, my. Literally, I think the last line of my review was, please, for the love of God, don't watch this movie on your phone. Because they had just bought it when I reviewed it, but. And they did write by it. They did put it in theaters. You know, it wasn't around for that long, but they did put it in theaters. It did play. Same with Frankenstein. You know, I feel like they're kind of coming around to the idea of putting movies in theaters, but who knows.

Unidentified Participant 1 (78:25)

What, you know, you said it was your number one.

Bilga Abiri (78:27)

It was my number one, yeah.

Unidentified Participant 1 (78:29)

What did you like about it?

Bilga Abiri (78:31)

I mean, I respond to these stories that kind of try and take in a large swath of someone's life. I mean, it reminds me a lot of other films I enjoy, like Barry Lyndon, which is probably my favorite film of all time.

Benjamin Frisch (78:44)

Frankenstein.

Bilga Abiri (78:45)

Frankenstein. But I love the fact that it's. It's a film built out of relatively mundane details that, you know, leads to an overpowering conclusion or overwhelming conclusion. And I think. I mean, it's probably. Of the films I've reviewed this year, it's probably the one I've gotten the most feedback on from people, a lot of people who really love it. The question is, you know, why don't you love it?

Benjamin Frisch (79:15)

Well, yeah, I mean, I think that I appreciate a lot of the aesthetics. I've seen it three times, and I think that I started to see a little bit of some synthetic fabric in there, like the way that it's trying to get us to feel things and think about America, life, and, you know, life in the world. But when that backlash happened and your piece came out, I was very. Even though I wasn't the hugest fan of that movie, I was very much on your side because I thought the critiques of it. And this is people snarking on Twitter.

Bilga Abiri (79:44)

You know, which is.

Benjamin Frisch (79:45)

Which is, you know, but like it's their God, given the voiceover makes it like a credit card commercial or whatever. And I was like, well, that's not really true. I think the voiceover is really nice in that movie.

Bilga Abiri (79:54)

But, yeah, yeah, I said my piece. It was interesting. I wrote another piece, something I wrote for the Yale Review, about films that are influenced by Terrence Mao. I mean, looking at kind of the whole last 20, 30 years of films influenced by Terrence Malick, and that was one of them. I mean, it was pegged to that and Hamnet, actually. And while there are clearly Malick like touches in the film, I found it fascinating that people said that the voiceover was Malickian, which it isn't.

Benjamin Frisch (80:27)

It's not at all.

Bilga Abiri (80:28)

You know, Terrence Malick does first person voiceovers. Very limited stream of consciousness and very fallible voiceover. He does not do kind of omniscient narration. And I found it fascinating that people kept saying, oh, this is just like Terrence Malick, light this voiceover. I'm like, actually, it isn't. It's more kind of the jewel ajime model of voiceover.

Benjamin Frisch (80:52)

Yeah. I didn't hear Will Patton ever say, father, mother, you always wrestle in me or whatever. Yeah. You know, that didn't happen one time.

Bilga Abiri (80:57)

Yeah, I think I'll be a mud doctor, you know, but at the same time, you know, he's become kind of synonymous with voiceover. So maybe that's what it is. But, you know, I think. I think it's a beautiful film. I do think, you know, the differences with the novella that people have talked about and how the novella is a lot thornier and more kind of politically complicated, that's all well taken. I actually think that by making this character less complete, illicit, and less guilty, but still racked by guilt, I actually think in a weird way, it's more politically damning. Right. I mean, the idea of kind of a person who watches this stuff happen, doesn't partake in it, but still feels the guilt of what he's witnessed and what he's failed to intervene against, even though he couldn't have done anything, he would have just gotten shot along with everyone else. But that, to me, I think, is one, on one level, very relatable, but also on another level, you know, like I said, incredibly damning. Right. I mean, and it's a feeling that I think a lot of people sense. And even though Train Dreams is not ultimately all about that, I mean, it's about a number of different things. And the idea of feeling like, you know, there's some kind of, you know, that you've been condemned karmically, almost, which feeds into both the. You know, both what happens with the migrant workers, but also with the idea that they're just, like, tearing down these forests. And they become, you know, later on in the film, when you see kind of how mechanized the whole logging operation has become and how careless, you know, you feel bad for him and you feel bad for the other old timers in the way that they've kind of been cast aside. But at the same time, this is the world they've created, you know. Right. I mean, they were kind of, you know, the vanguard of this. So how complicit are they? I think these are all interesting things that the film, I think, tackles in a fascinating and very compelling way, but obviously different from the novella. And I know a lot of people have issues with that, but, you know.

Benjamin Frisch (83:10)

Well, unfortunately, you've now given yourself a new role in that. Every time we're negative about a movie, you have to come two weeks later and offer the rebuttal. That was. I appreciate that, Billy. Thank you. We're going to put you on the spot one more time.

Bilga Abiri (83:24)

All right, let's do it.

Benjamin Frisch (83:25)

Defend Hamnet in five minutes or less.

Bilga Abiri (83:29)

Good.

Benjamin Frisch (83:29)

Which I like, by the way.

Bilga Abiri (83:30)

I like him, okay.

Benjamin Frisch (83:30)

You like him? Yeah, I do. I think people. I think I maybe didn't sound as positive about it as I meant to be. The ending makes me sob, so that's an effective movie.

Alison Wilmore (83:39)

I'm dead inside, so you're dead inside.

Bilga Abiri (83:40)

Well, it's okay. I mean, again, a film that absolutely wrecked me, reduced me to tears. I've seen it, like, four times at this point. Every. Every time I cry harder. I think it's beautifully done. I love Again, actually, as I was saying, it kind of has that same cadence. Not quite the same cadence as Train Dreams, but it does have that sort of just marches forward with these lives. I love the novel, too. And the novel is. I mean, the film is faithful. And somehow also not because the novel, it doesn't have a linear structure. It just keeps coming back to the day of Hamnet's death. And it kind of just circles that. And I remember when I went into the film, I thought to myself, how the hell are they gonna turn this into a movie? Like, this is gonna be just absolutely. You can't just keep going back to this child dying. It'll be horrible. And obviously, they don't do that. They kind of forge forward, you know? Cause the novel doesn't feel like A book about the writing of Hamlet. The film does feel like a film about the writing of Hamlet. Hamlet, which is, you know, I mean, it's my favorite play, you know, widely considered by a lot of people, you know, the greatest play in the English language. Although, you know, others may disagree, but the fact that they would take on a topic like this, the fact that they would say, okay, we're gonna do the creation of Hamlet, I thought that was just like, brazen and beautiful. And I think. I mean, to me, it works really well. I love the fact that there are two versions of the to be or not to be speech in it. Two very different versions of it. As if to kind of say, hey, you know, everybody has their own version of Hamlet. That final moment, I mean, is probably the best depiction of catharsis I've ever seen. I just saw a film, it was at Sundance, where they're talking about catharsis and how catharsis works. And I just kept thinking, Hamnet is like a perfect example of, you know, like, this is what it is. That one to one connection is. Is, you know, Is representative of what great art is supposed to do.

Benjamin Frisch (85:44)

So I agree with a lot of that. I just do wish that it had ended with Hamnet chasing his father across the Arctic. I think that would have really been a lot more powerful.

Alison Wilmore (85:51)

But that's how most movies end. So I feel like maybe it's good that every once in a while we mix it up.

Benjamin Frisch (85:55)

Yeah.

Bilga Abiri (85:57)

What's the Shakespeare play with Exit Chased by a bear.

Benjamin Frisch (86:00)

Winter's Tale.

Bilga Abiri (86:00)

Yeah. Should have had that.

Benjamin Frisch (86:02)

I played a guard in that and as a teenager.

Unidentified Participant 1 (86:05)

Well, speaking of great art, Richard Lawson's doppelganger, the A.I.

Benjamin Frisch (86:11)

Richard Lawson. Yeah. So Bielga, last week, Ben found my alternate. What? Existence. Right. Like, there's an AI journalist named Richard Lawson who I think they're just trying to make me kind of.

Alison Wilmore (86:23)

Well, they're clearly just like, this is the thing where, like, these slop sites will, like, put things under a byline, and it won't be claiming to be this Richard, but it will be like, Richard Lawson. And they have a whole bio and a picture of someone, and they're clearly trying to get, like, SEO traffic.

Benjamin Frisch (86:40)

We think, God, at any given time, there are thousands of people searching my name on Google. I'm assuming I'm doing it right now. Yeah, yeah.

Unidentified Participant 1 (86:48)

Well, the other Richard Lawson was writing about the Super Bowl.

Benjamin Frisch (86:52)

Sure.

Unidentified Participant 1 (86:52)

Last night.

Benjamin Frisch (86:53)

Yeah, that makes sense because I wasn't watching it, so my doppelganger had to.

Unidentified Participant 1 (86:57)

So the other Richard Lawson has already today published nine pieces.

Benjamin Frisch (87:02)

Yeah. No, I'm amazing. I'm incredible.

Bilga Abiri (87:05)

That's the Richard Lawson.

Benjamin Frisch (87:06)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, I've reviewed so many things.

Bilga Abiri (87:09)

Would the AI Richard Lawson like to finish my Withering Life ranking for me? I need some sleep.

Alison Wilmore (87:15)

Yeah.

Benjamin Frisch (87:15)

Yeah. The AI somehow, like, names number one, the Kate Bush song. Like.

Bilga Abiri (87:21)

Yeah. It is not a bad choice.

Unidentified Participant 1 (87:23)

So I thought it might be a good opportunity to talk about some of the Super Bowl.

Benjamin Frisch (87:28)

Oh, yeah.

Unidentified Participant 1 (87:30)

Collaborations, new trailers and stuff that.

Benjamin Frisch (87:33)

Yeah. Well, there was the surprise trailer for the.

Alison Wilmore (87:36)

The Adventures of Cliff Booth.

Benjamin Frisch (87:37)

Yeah. Which Fincher directed. Tarantino written.

Bilga Abiri (87:40)

Yes.

Benjamin Frisch (87:40)

And I gotta say, when I read about that movie, I kind of didn't believe it was actually a real thing for like, the better part of a year or whatever.

Bilga Abiri (87:47)

Neither did I.

Benjamin Frisch (87:48)

And then I watched the. And then I kind of started dreading it when it became clear that it was real. But I don't know. The trailer.

Alison Wilmore (87:53)

The trailer looked amazing.

Bilga Abiri (87:55)

I actually missed the trailer.

Alison Wilmore (87:56)

Oh. And they haven't put it online officially yet. Yet, so they've been really sneaky.

Unidentified Participant 1 (87:59)

It's online now.

Alison Wilmore (88:00)

Is it, like. Is it official?

Benjamin Frisch (88:01)

Yeah, it's. It looks fun.

Alison Wilmore (88:02)

It looked great. Yeah. I don't know. I. I mean, I loved Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. I love David Fincher. I was. I've been worried about his, like, weird tenure with Netflix, which seems to have led to making. I don't know, I mean, odd, sometimes likable projects, but, like, with them increasingly being like, that's too much money. You can't have it. So, like, Tarantino to be like, here's a script. And Netflix to be like, okay, have a lot of money. Brad Pitt will be in it. I. I'm all for it. Elizabeth Debicki is in it, being tall, as previously discussed, one of. One of her many strong suits. Yeah. I don't know. I. I thought it. It looked great.

Benjamin Frisch (88:38)

Did any of you watch any of the ads that were, like, directed by big directors? Because I kind of.

Alison Wilmore (88:44)

Yorgos one.

Bilga Abiri (88:44)

I missed that one. I missed Yorgos. I. I heard. Were there multiple Yorgos directed ones?

Benjamin Frisch (88:49)

There was a Yorgos. There was a Taika Waititi one.

Alison Wilmore (88:52)

He's been directing a lot of ads. Yeah.

Benjamin Frisch (88:53)

Yeah. Was there anyone else?

Bilga Abiri (88:57)

Probably.

Alison Wilmore (88:57)

I mean, everyone. There's a. There were a lot of big actors also in this.

Bilga Abiri (89:01)

Remember, it was a Dunkin Donuts thing. That was an atrocity.

Alison Wilmore (89:04)

Yeah.

Benjamin Frisch (89:05)

Wait, tell me, what was that? Because I want the.

Bilga Abiri (89:07)

Oh, God. It was. Well de. Aged versions of. It was kind of a Goodwill Hunting thing. Except that.

Benjamin Frisch (89:14)

Oh, dear God.

Bilga Abiri (89:14)

Yeah. You know, the Matt Damon character was played by Ben Affleck in this case with like a. A bad wig. But it was all kind of characters from 80s 90s sitcoms. And, you know, I mean, Ted Danson was there from Cheers. Oh, wow. I mean, it was horrifying. And everybody's face kind of looked like.

Benjamin Frisch (89:37)

It was sort of floating Princess Leia stone. Yeah.

Bilga Abiri (89:40)

It was like bad de. Aging. And I don't even know what the point of it was ultimately, other than at the end, Tom Brady showed up, and I was watching with my son and his friend, and they had no idea who any of these people were except for Tom Brady. They're like, what's Tom Brady doing?

Alison Wilmore (89:54)

I was like, with all those randos. Well, so apparently so. Taika Waititi did the Pepsi ad, which I do not remember. Spike Jones did the Ben Stiller ad for Instacart, which I vaguely remember. Joseph Kosinski, your guy, he did the Kurt Russell, I guess, Lewis Pullman one.

Bilga Abiri (90:15)

I didn't see that one either.

Benjamin Frisch (90:16)

Wait, it's Kurt Russell in an ad for Lewis Pullman.

Alison Wilmore (90:18)

Yeah, he's like. I think it's slightly confusing because it's like Lewis Pullman is like, oh, no. If you always have to. Like, you're the. The worst skier of the friend group, so you always have to buy the round at the bar. And then Kurt Russell turns up at the bar and is like, I can help you with that. I can train you how to ski. But then you're kind of like. It feels like it should be either Wyatt Russell or Bill. Like, like, you know, you're like, there's a celebrity dad. Like, like, kind of like weirdness there that you're like. And then your girls, I guess, did two ads, Squarespace and grubhub, so.

Benjamin Frisch (90:46)

Oh, the George Clooney grub. People were mad about that.

Alison Wilmore (90:49)

I missed that one. But, yeah. Do you remember when, like, it used to be embarrassing for stars to do.

Benjamin Frisch (90:55)

Well, they would go to.

Alison Wilmore (90:56)

Go to Japan and like. Yeah, I kind of missed that. I think we need to bring up.

Benjamin Frisch (90:59)

Well, that. Yeah, the sentiment I saw last night that was kind of centered on the Clooney thing was like, we need to bring back, like, a really stringent 80s or early 90s sense of selling out.

Alison Wilmore (91:09)

Yes.

Benjamin Frisch (91:09)

Because, like, we've gone too far.

Bilga Abiri (91:10)

What. What was the commercial that sort of broke that. Damn. Do we remember? I feel like. I feel like if I thought about it for a few minutes, I could remember.

Benjamin Frisch (91:19)

I mean, the. The George Cloning espresso ads did make their way over the Atlantic from Europe at some point and became like an ongoing punchline. Right.

Bilga Abiri (91:27)

Like, yeah, to this day, maybe the American Express ads, that was the whole thing. Like, they would have famous people. You know, Stephen King did one and.

Benjamin Frisch (91:36)

You know, I think that the American AMEX definitely was or was an early thing, honestly. And this sounds like maybe I'm, I'm nagging like a major, you know, media platform, but, like, I kind of feel like when movie stars started doing television, that sort of was like, start blurred the lines enough. They were like, okay, well, how blurry can this get? You know, like, we could. Because yeah. Now I think it was also like, voiceover stuff. Like, not that he was a big star, but Billy Crudup doing MasterCard for years.

Bilga Abiri (92:03)

Right, right, right.

Unidentified Participant 1 (92:04)

Activia.

Benjamin Frisch (92:05)

Jamie Lee Curtis doing Activia. Absolutely. And then parried it on SNL. You know, I think Billy Crudup did.

Bilga Abiri (92:13)

Did MasterCard before he kind of hit it big. Right.

Benjamin Frisch (92:16)

He had, he was around like, he had done his earlier stuff and he'd done Almost Famous and all that. But, like, yeah, he wasn't like, you know, it was before all this current success. But, but yeah, I mean, I, I guess, like, I don't know, I just bring back sort of of shame about that. You get paid enough, you'd have to.

Bilga Abiri (92:34)

Bring back shame on many, many levels before you. Like, that's the, the problem isn't those commercials. The problem is just shame.

Benjamin Frisch (92:41)

Although I will say I, I, I spent my weekend watching the Olympics mostly on like, the Peacock app, which is great. And you can you. But you still do get commercials. And for whatever reason, all I've seen are commercials for Red Bull and then like, medicines with horrifying side effects. That's it. Which I guess Red Bill is. Red Bull is kind of too.

Alison Wilmore (93:00)

The side effects may include death.

Benjamin Frisch (93:02)

Did you know that one symptom of depression is sadness?

Alison Wilmore (93:05)

I like when they're like, do not use. If you are allergic to this medication.

Benjamin Frisch (93:08)

Have you ever, ever even thought about being pregnant? Do not come within 50ft of this drug. Like. Yeah.

Bilga Abiri (93:14)

Is it a side effect of depression or side effect of the medication you take for depression?

Benjamin Frisch (93:18)

That one of the potential side effects of the depression medication is depression symptoms. Like, sad.

Bilga Abiri (93:23)

Oh, my God. Which is.

Benjamin Frisch (93:25)

Yeah.

Bilga Abiri (93:25)

So it's like another way of saying our medication doesn't work.

Benjamin Frisch (93:28)

Exactly, exactly. But, you know, it does work. Good old Team usa. We this. The team's figure skating. So happy about that. No, I wanted the Japanese to win. They were better. But anyway. Well, Bilva, thank you. This was great. We'll have to have you back at some point. And do we have a winner or loser this week or a a poke in memoriam we want to do?

Alison Wilmore (93:47)

I guess our our winner is Ben Affleck for sure. Continuing the Dunkin Donuts thing even while making fun of himself for still being on that Boston shtick, as I think is part of the ad someone makes making fun of him for that.

Benjamin Frisch (93:59)

And you know, I'll say as a native of Boston from the actual city of Boston, by the way, not some stubborn no, I it still works on me a little bit. Like, I still am kind of charmed by it. Even though he did not have a Boston accent growing up. He's from Cambridge, not Boston. I still kind of like it. So I will probably go watch that ad, even if it is an abomination next week. A certain corner of the Internet might be excited because we're headed to Brazil, so we're gonna bone up on our Portuguese to talk about the Secret Agent, which is available to rent now. It just got, I think, put on demand last week, so if you're watching along at home, it should be accessible to you.

Richard Lawson (94:42)

Critical Darlings is a Blank Check Production in association with Vulture Hosted by Allison Wilmore and Richard Lawson Produced by Benjamin Frisch Executive produced by Griffin Newman and Neil Janowitz Video production and distribution by Ann Victoria Clark, Wolfgang Ruth and Jennifer Jean.