Hail, Caesar! with Shirley Li

Summary

Blank Check with Griffin & David

"Hail, Caesar!" with Shirley Li

Release Date: November 9, 2025
Guests: Shirley Li (The Atlantic)

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Episode Overview

This episode, part of the Blank Check miniseries on the Coen Brothers, is devoted to “Hail, Caesar!” (2016). Hosts Griffin Newman and David Sims are joined by recurring guest and fan favorite Shirley Li to dissect, deconstruct, and celebrate the Coens’ homage to—and critique of—classical Hollywood. With their trademark blend of deep-dive cinephilia and warm, chaotic banter, they explore the film’s themes of art versus industry, faith and meaning in show business, the making and breaking of movie stars, and the Coen Brothers’ own late-career perspective.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Meaning of “Hail, Caesar!” as a Coen Brothers' Film (~08:00)

• The group contextualizes "Hail, Caesar!" as potentially the last "true" Coens collaboration before Ethan stepped away (“this does sort of feel like a retirement film in an odd way, even though it certainly didn’t seem like it at the time.” — Griffin, 08:53).
• Themes of burnout, questioning the worth of making art, and how the work of movies stacks up against “serious” work like, say, building bombs at Lockheed Martin.
• Shirley notes: “It all works itself out. It does, but does it without someone caring about it? That’s...the X-factor.” (~28:10)
• David links it to the recurring Coens motif: “So much of the magic that has worked in this movie is sort of serendipitous... sort of ‘Burn After Reading’-adjacent in a way.” (27:44)

2. Hollywood Machinery—Insiders, Fixers, and Faith (77:28, 79:02)

• Central discussion of Eddie Mannix (Josh Brolin), both the historical fixer and the fictionalized version. The contrast between Hollywood problem-solving and the “serious” work offered by Lockheed.
• The system’s moral ambiguity: “The only reason you do it is if there’s nothing else you can do.” — Griffin (143:11)
• The ‘show folk’ identity: Even Mannix, the most businesslike, is moved by creative problem-solving and movie-making magic, as seen in the editing-room scene with Frances McDormand.
• Contrast between cynical and romantic attitudes toward movies ("Weirdly, this movie is simultaneously more cynical and more romantic than Barton Fink..." — Griffin, 91:54).

3. Parody and Tribute: The Films Within a Film (23:18, 24:18)

• Lively breakdown of the various fictional movies inside “Hail, Caesar!”: Lazy Old Moon, No Dames, Jonah’s Daughter, and the title biblical epic.
• Griffin is particularly fixated on the grace and complexity of the “No Dames” tap number (“every time I watch that, it is like nirvana for me,” 22:58) and how the set’s moving pieces are as much movie magic as the choreography (103:00).
• The gang imagines which of the fake movies they’d most like to watch (21:49). “I do...want to know, like, how the relationships evolve in Lazy Old Moon,” muses Shirley.

4. Casting & Star Power: Tatum, Ehrenreich, and the System (48:44, 54:03)

• A deep dive into Channing Tatum’s career, work ethic (“He learned 10 years of tap in three months” — David quoting the choreographer, 62:00), and the odd tapering of his superstardom despite his seemingly boundless charisma and talent (“He was on a real...a fucking masterpiece. But he was on such a hot run.” — Griffin, 51:34).
• Alden Ehrenreich as Hobie Doyle—discovered by Spielberg, loaded with DiCaprio-like expectations, and delivering a performance the hosts call “one of the best movie performances of the decade” (~57:02). The group laments the public's harsh response to Ehrenreich after Solo.
• Parallel between real star-making and “Hail, Caesar!”’s meta-commentary on the studio system’s manufacturing of stars.

5. Meticulous Craft: Deakins, Technicolor, and Old Hollywood Style (60:53)

• Praise for Roger Deakins’s cinematography: “This is one of the only modern movies I can think of that actually somehow captures Technicolor feelings. Like, three-strip, you know...” — Griffin (61:06).
• Admiration for how the Coens (and Deakins) play with classic genres and recreate the magic—and chaos—of old Hollywood.

6. The Writers' Room: The Future, Communism & Satire (82:24, 139:03)

• Extended examination of the Marxist writers’ subplot: a simultaneously silly and pointed jab at the labor politics and radical undercurrent of Hollywood in the 1950s.
• “For how much they’re espousing serious political opinion, the actual means to an end for them is they would like it if they had nice houses too.” — Griffin (82:54)
• The submarine scene (139:03): The episode relishes the absurdity and theatricality of the Communist writers handing off a suitcase to a Russian sub, poking fun at both period Hollywood and political naiveté.

7. The Small Parts: Scene-Stealing Supporting Players (86:11, 87:16, 99:03)

• Celebration of the ensemble: Tilda Swinton as the twin gossip columnists (“Every time either of her characters says ‘Eddie’, I transcend to a higher plane of existence.” — Griffin, 87:28), Scarlett Johansson as a Brooklyn-accented bathing beauty, Frances McDormand as the editor, Wayne Knight as the sus extra, and Jonah Hill’s bail bondsman (who, Griffin notes, “is on screen for 90 seconds. They use every line of dialogue he has in the trailer...” 89:08).
• Discussion of “Would that it were so simple?” with Ralph Fiennes and Alden Ehrenreich (“one of the funniest scenes in the history” — Griffin, 130:49).

8. Hollywood Nostalgia, Real Locations, and LA Lore (134:03, 134:36)

• Shirley celebrates the film’s use of real LA locations, drawing connections to beloved spots like Good Luck Bar and Formosa Café.
• Odes to “the aesthetic pleasures of this movie, the tuning of every single performance...” — Griffin (138:28).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On The Nature of Hollywood (Faith & Industry)

• Griffin, 08:53: “This does sort of feel like a retirement film in an odd way... it certainly didn’t seem like it at the time.”
• Shirley, 28:10: “It all works itself out. It does, but does it without someone caring about it? That’s...the X-factor.”

On Channing Tatum’s No Dames Sequence

• Griffin, 22:58: “Every time I watch that, it is like nirvana for me...I am most interested in the idea of watching 90 minutes of lazy Old Moon.”
• Shirley, 51:01: “I want to give Channing Tatum a medal. I want to give him so many medals.”

On the Romantic vs Cynical Coens

• Griffin, 91:54: “Weirdly, this movie is simultaneously more cynical and more romantic than Barton Fink...”
• David, 92:08: “It is largely cynical, but then at the end of the day, it is about the system working.”

On Hobie Doyle and the Making of Movie Stars

• Griffin, 57:02: “Like, one of the best movie performances of the decade, in my opinion...people were so rude to him after Solo...I want to be like, watch Hail Caesar, you ingrates.”
• Shirley, 67:16: “There will always be headlines about [Channing] because he has one project or another...his personal life is part of his professional life.”

On the Religious Consultants Scene

• David, 98:19: “My favorite scene in Hail, Caesar! is the scene where he talks to the religious leaders about the divine presence... it's this perfect parody of moviemaking especially right at that time...We need to calibrate our message so it appeals to everyone without offending anyone.”

On the Making of Movies vs. Serious Work

• Shirley, 142:06: “For me, I was kind of like, yeah, this movie is about...whether to have passion for the job that you do? And is it—how much do you sacrifice in order to feel fulfilled...?”
• Griffin, 143:11: “So much of it is so unglamorous, so annoying, so soul crushing that the only reason you do it is if there’s just nothing else you can do...”

On Supporting Cast & Poster Gags

• Griffin, 89:08: “[Jonah Hill] is on screen for 90 seconds. They use every line of dialogue he has in the trailer. They put him all over the fucking trailer because he was hot stuff...I have often contested that this is the smallest role to receive a designated character poster...”

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Noteworthy Segments & Timestamps

• Coen Brothers’ Late-Career Perspective & Burnout: 08:53–10:59
• The "Hail, Caesar!" Miniseries Context/Intro: 07:01–08:28
• No Dames Discussion/Channing Tatum: 22:58–24:39, 62:00 (his tap training)
• Making & Fate of Movie Stars (Tatum/Ehrenreich): 48:44–67:16
• Religious Consultants Scene: 98:19–101:15
• Fake Movies-in-Movie Game: 21:43–23:19
• Jonah Hill Poster Bit: 89:08–89:32
• “Would that it were so simple?” Scene: 130:49–131:53
• Discussion of Classic LA Bars & Locations: 134:03–134:36
• Deep Coen Ensemble Appreciation: 108:31–110:18

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Listener Takeaways

• Appreciation for Craft: Even amidst their comic chaos, the Coens are meticulously attentive to both cinematic history and the nuts-and-bolts labor that makes movie magic possible.
• Understanding Mixed Feelings: “Hail, Caesar!” is both a loving tribute and a wary satire of the studio system—the duo finds beauty, frustration, and transcendence in the act of making art.
• Meta-Take on Stardom: The cast and their real-life trajectories (Tatum, Ehrenreich) refract the film’s themes about the constructed—and precarious—nature of showbiz success.
• Enduring Importance of Collaboration: From editors to extras, everyone plays a key role in the resulting “miracles” of moviemaking.
• Classic Blank Check Energy: Tangents abound but almost always loop back to a greater understanding of both the art and business of film.

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Final Thought

As Shirley remarks toward the close (142:38):
“...what I love about it is that the Coens kind of push you to see it as more optimistic...they’re reassuring. They’re like Jonah Hill to me.”

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This episode is highly recommended for anyone who loves movies, moviemaking, and the inside stories of Hollywood history—whether you’re a Coen Brothers completist or just looking for an entertaining, thoughtful deep-dive.

Transcript

[A]

Blank check with Griffin and David. Blank check with Griffin and David. Don't know what to say or to expect.

[B]

All you need to know is that.

[A]

The name of the shadow is Blackjack. You're gonna do it because you're an actor, and that's what you do. Just like the director does what he does, and the writer and the script girl and the guy who claps the slate. And you're gonna do it because the podcast has worth. And if you have worth. And you have worth if you serve the podcast. And you're never going to forget that again.

[B]

It's so good.

[C]

I'm going to cry.

[B]

Should we take it again?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I stumbled on the one line. Do you have any. Any note? Do you have any. What do you think? More tripping?

[B]

I think just, like, with more roof.

[A]

Rueful. Okay. And I'll do a merciless chuckle at the beginning. Oh, yeah. Ready? Yeah. That was a little too small. Let me try that again. Oh, you're going to do it because you're an actor, and that's what you do. Just like the director does what he does, and the writer and the script girl and the guy who claps the slate. You're gonna do it because the podcast has worth, and you have worth if you serve the podcast. And you're never gonna forget that again. Is that too rueful?

[B]

No, that was great.

[A]

And the cough was good. I think that was good that we captured. David has been sick for six months.

[B]

It feels like, since the live show.

[A]

Since the live show, Yeah.

[B]

I, like, got sick right after the live show, and then I was like, I guess I'm not sick anymore. And then I was like, I'm sick again. Is it the same or is it new? I think it's new.

[C]

It's. JJ brought it.

[A]

J. You're right. It is JJ's disease.

[B]

You know what? Now that we actually have someone who knew JJ when he was.

[A]

Wait, what?

[B]

Awful teenager.

[A]

Essentially, I forgot this.

[B]

They went to college.

[A]

The Lord.

[B]

Our guest went to his wedding to whatever fool married him, which is the.

[C]

Last time I've seen jj.

[A]

Shirley, here's my question.

[C]

You guys have seen JJ before? I have, yes.

[A]

But we've also only seen him two times ever in our life. Hi, jj.

[C]

I've shouted out JJ every time I've been on, and I feel like it led to this point.

[B]

Jj, literally. I literally got in touch with JJ because Shirley was like, hey, can my annoying friend like, DM you on Twitter?

[C]

I'd be like, I never said annoying.

[A]

Can my annoying friend Ruin your lives forever.

[B]

It was basically not annoying, but sort of like, hey, my friend's like a huge fan. Is it okay if I. I like.

[A]

Yeah, surely was like mind if I. What about Bob?

[C]

I asked for people to group chats.

[A]

Yes, we love jj. But I have a question for you, Shirley, because someone needs to take responsibility for this. Did you know that JJ was hot or was he not hot back when you. Because you should have warned us and we shouldn't have hired him.

[C]

He was telling me that his trip to New York has involved what was it like a startling number of people telling him how tall he is.

[A]

People are thirst trapping. He's a fucking tall drink of water.

[C]

I mean I always knew JJ was cute. Jj, you're a cutie.

[A]

He's just fucking.

[B]

He's a good looking guy.

[C]

All of my friends are hot, including the three of you. You feel better.

[A]

Thank you, I appreciate that. But here's the thing.

[B]

You're a journalist and so your responsibility is to the truth.

[A]

Yes. I am just going to say to my 20 million readers, yes, I appreciate you saying that. But I'm going to say this candidly. Aj, Alan, Smithee and JJ are all so much hotter than the three of us. And it sucks.

[B]

They're good looking guys.

[A]

It sucks. Sucks. It sucks that the three guys who are not primarily mad on Mike are.

[B]

So editing just puts you in some kind of like great like workout. Like they're all in good shape.

[A]

They all got great hair.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

They all got good posture. Yeah. I don't know.

[C]

It's not a competition, Griff.

[B]

The whole thing with jj.

[A]

I serve the podcast cuz the podcast has worth and that's what it's about.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't know if you would agree with me or not. Shirley Lee, who we haven't introduced yet. That's okay.

[A]

And we won't introduce the show yet.

[B]

Right.

[A]

It's going to be a while.

[B]

Shirley Lee, my close friend.

[A]

Well, please don't. Don't even get close. Introduced.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But that is the main credit.

[B]

We introduce my friend Shirley Lee who works with me Atlantic. But we haven't introduced her yet.

[A]

No, not to the podcast.

[B]

Jj, you know, online and sort of in his communication comes off like a little shy or more introverted I suppose.

[A]

And then he's got that bde and.

[B]

Then we're like right. We're like hey, so JJ like hi, nice to meet you finally IRL so the show tomorrow and like just you're cool with us like bringing you on stage and like doing bits with you.

[C]

I'm imagining your mouths, like, agape, like, wide open.

[A]

We were. We were worried that we were going to be just like, hey, doing something cruel by even asking him to appear. Are you actually gonna be a nervous wreck?

[B]

And JJ's like, yeah, I mean, it's fine. Let's do that. I've. I've lectured in front of people at college and I'm like, yeah, oh, yeah, sure. I mean, I guess it's sort of like that. And then like, he walks on stage.

[A]

Like Arsenio Wolf walks on stage.

[B]

Everyone's. He does everything perfectly. And then where. I'm like. I'm like, this guy doesn't want to get off the stage. And not in like a. He needs like the. He's drinking and he's just kind of like, yeah, I'm chill up here, as long as you need.

[A]

We called Sandman to give him the cane and tap dance him off the stage. And Sandman was like, no, I like this guy.

[B]

Him and tried to get me off. I'm like, wait, what's going on? And. And then like he walks off stage and afterwards he's like, that was fun. And then he's like tweeting like, you know, what a great moment in my life. And I'm like, in chillest irl.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

JJ is the chillest person.

[A]

Texting with him is not a chill experience. And I was just like, oh, my.

[B]

God, me, an airplane, you know, sweating meme.

[A]

Right? He's going to be fucking like Luca Brazzi, preparing to meet Don Corleone, having dinner with him. And then I show up and it was the energy of like. And you are?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't want JJ to have the same fate as Luca. But jj, yeah, is the.

[A]

Is the chillest person, like, to good life, right?

[C]

I suppose.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How old's Luca Brasi, do you think? When he gets absolutely murdered?

[C]

I can't tell. Ages.

[A]

Yeah. And I'll tell you, look, JJ's not going to have the same fate as Luca Brzzi. Luca Brazzi was murdered and JJ is only fired.

[C]

Oh, I'm sorry. I thought this was a mob.

[A]

It is. In a way.

[B]

It's true. Kind of.

[A]

I mean, it's kind of like hail Caesar. It's like, right? Does it take organized crime in a form a legalize organized crime ring?

[B]

Context. Context clues. According to Google says it's reasonable estimate. He was in his early 50s.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Okay. So I was pretty far off.

[A]

Had those city miles on him.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, it feels like Luca Brasi's had, like, exactly, like, kind of a crazy, like. Yeah, yeah. He's done some stuff, at least seen things.

[A]

Like the Cheers meme, though. If you told me Luca Brasi was like, 26, right.

[B]

Who is it in Cheers? It's like Norm is like, right. Norm's five.

[A]

At the start of Cheers.

[C]

He's graduated kindergarten.

[B]

Everyone's like, 28 years old.

[A]

Everyone other than Nicholas Cono was under 37. Right.

[B]

And even coach is only 42.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right. He's like, I'm old. I mean, like, it's kind of that vibe back then. Right?

[A]

I think he was like, 52. He wasn't even that old. Ratzenberger was the oldest looking man who has ever lived. And you're like, they plucked him out of high school. This is Blank Check with Griffin and T. I'm Griffin.

[B]

I.

[A]

This is a really good intro.

[B]

Died at the age of 61. Okay. It's like, such a bummer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He was just in his 50s on Cheers.

[A]

Yeah. And he was already in bad state. They offered him the party. Didn't want to do it because he said, like, I'm too old. My mind is going. I don't think I have the strength for it. And they were like, you're 57. And he was right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's incredible in that show.

[C]

Wow, what a note to start on.

[A]

This is like a perfect intro to scare off any new listener.

[B]

I'm sorry. Who's jumping on with.

[A]

Straight into deep lore. Our own internal fudgeing lore. But here's the thing.

[C]

Thing.

[A]

I'll build to this point, this blank check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin David. It's a podcast about filmographies, Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear. Sometimes those checks clear. And sometimes they bounce, baby. I was trying to think of a serves the picture thing, but I. I couldn't do it. It's a miniseries on the films of the Coen brothers. Joel Nathan Cohen.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

It is called Pod country for old casts. Probably we. We actually can't remember. There's no way to double check at this point. And people are just gonna have to listen to four months of us second guessing ourselves every time we say it. But this, today, we're talking about Hail Caesar.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Which it's funny to think, sort of feels like their last film together because of the weird nature of Scruggs. And Scruggs being like, was this meant to Be a TV show. Was this designed to short films? It was released as a film, but that was, like, a very last second switch. And this does sort of feel like a retirement film in an odd way, even though it certainly didn't seem like it at the time.

[B]

No, but I know what you mean in terms of, like, it's a sort of farewell to movies or what. Yeah.

[A]

The way Ethan and Joel has talked about Ethan's burnout and just being like, I need to take a breather.

[B]

Right.

[A]

This feels like a movie of guys who have just been, like, working nonstop and are sort of like, why do we care about movies?

[C]

Why do we care about art? Is there any worth in what we do?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes. And it, like, comes to, like, a place of, like, confidence, but also a place where it feels like maybe I'm ready to step away. Right. Is that my final statement?

[B]

Ethan's like, yeah. What motivates me now? Lesbians.

[A]

Yes. Dildos.

[B]

So many lesbians. Just the more the better.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How many lesbians are in this movie? Like, two.

[C]

He's like, not enough.

[B]

All right, we've added eight more. Okay, okay, I'll direct it. Right now.

[A]

Can I become the bizarro DJ Khaled of cinema? Hail Caesar. A great film. A masterpiece.

[B]

Yes. A wonderful.

[A]

I have a very distinct memory of you and I. We were at Ray's Pizza getting ready to go to the final showing ever at the Ziegfeld Theater.

[B]

We certainly did go to that Force.

[A]

Awakens playing in its second month in January before it closed. And we went to that. We were getting pizza beforehand. You told me you saw Hell Caesar earlier that day. You said, it's really great. And I said, that's awesome. I love when the Coen brothers do their kind of just, like, fun romp things. And you looked at me very seriously and went, no, this is like, a masterpiece.

[B]

Absolutely. I mean, right? It was released in, what, February? Right. So it's like, I feel like everyone was kind of like, okay, so this is just a confection, you know, sold.

[A]

In a very similar fashion to Burn after reading of, like, we got a bunch of big stars doing silly stuff. And that movie, as I like to remind people, did bizarrely well, is completely forgotten. It felt like they were doing the exact same marketing tactic. And I was like, I'm on board for another one of those. And you were like, this is profound. This movie is profound. It's about everything. I saw it. I was not befuddled by it, but I was like, yeah, it's fun. I don't know if I quite see what David's seeing.

[B]

I think you more had the reaction most people had to it of like fun.

[A]

Fun.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And some great stuff in it. And then is one of those movies that like two weeks later I was like, I gotta go see that again. And I watched.

[B]

I saw it three times in theaters.

[A]

I saw it at least two, if not three. I've watched it at least five times since then. It. It's a movie that rocks and rolls. And speaking of rock and rolling, our guest today, you might know her best as.

[B]

Should we hold off on this? No.

[A]

Friend and coworker.

[C]

What if you never do it?

[B]

We've done that bit and it's fine. But I feel like it's sort of.

[A]

Like, you know, it also works better when we do it to Hoffman cuz he gets more irritated by it.

[C]

Oh, he wants to be introduced.

[A]

Yeah. And we've. We've held off and now he starts introducing himself from the atl. Shirley Lee. Far too long. One of the most requested. Why has it been so long since Shirley was on the show? And the reason why is people go all around, great guest, great personality, great jokes, great laugh. But more than anything, she unlocks David. David is in rare form whenever Shirley is on leave the room. Oh, Shirley Dog is off the leash.

[B]

I feel like you've only been on two episodes.

[C]

It's crazy. I'm nervous being here. I mean, the last time I was here, I don't know, I caused a ruckus.

[B]

That's.

[A]

People want the ruckus.

[B]

What was the ruckus? I remember that's a famous episode that got fucked up in the Audioboom days.

[C]

That's the ruckus.

[B]

Wait, what episode? Ponyo. I mean, I mean it was mostly fun, but it was one of those episodes where chunks of it got messed up. Oh, I don't remember that. It's like Mad Max Ponyo. Public enemies are the big three. I remember, yes. Where like after the fact you were like the system overloaded.

[C]

Geez.

[A]

Then you turn 40 and you forget. Well, I think there's a reason why.

[B]

I've blocked them that and I think it's because it became an actual nightmare.

[C]

Right.

[B]

That year, which is the last year at Audioboom Studios, it started to really be a problem.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Cuz then we had the Mad Max episode that got all fucked up. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Those and then this, which was not my fault.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

2020. I wasn't accusing you. You were pointing at me this entire Time there was like, your honor, he's fine.

[A]

20, 20, 20, 20.

[B]

Something went on then. And that was also called the David just saluted. Never saw that one. Never, never. Check. I know. Ben saw it. I know.

[A]

Ruefully, in the Pandemic, being like, can you believe we didn't? We bring opportunity to go all the.

[B]

While in a theater.

[A]

We're here in our bedrooms, locked up in June 2020, and we could have been seen call the Wild with a sad bucket of popcorn, surrounded by rowdy strangers.

[C]

So this is your Eddington.

[B]

So, Shirley, you were on our Sense and Sensibility episode, of course, in which Ben was baffled by the concept of a death.

[A]

I've never forgotten what happened to that guy. You see him dying at the beginning of the movie and they never follow up. One of the greatest Ben questions of all time, asked in earnest. And I think you even said, that guy's on his deathbed. And then they never tell you what happened to him.

[B]

Did he make it?

[C]

Well, you said that in the first, like two minutes, I think.

[A]

Yeah, it was.

[B]

I needed to get clarity.

[A]

Right?

[C]

It was. It's important.

[A]

And it was framed as. I was so confused by this movie. And we're like, list the things that confused you. And that was top of the list.

[B]

You're on a Ponyo episode, a movie that back then I had seen many times. Now I have seen such a staggering amount of times that I know, like, every. Single.

[A]

You've watched Ponyo as much as you've brushed your teeth.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Wait.

[B]

And then we cannot forget Shirley.

[A]

His hygiene is not great.

[B]

Oh, boy. You cannot forget, Shirley, that you did appear on our Wendell and Wild episode to recount.

[C]

Oh, yes. That terrifying evening when I saw you as like. As like one of the infected from 28 days later.

[A]

Yeah, he was infected with the rainfall.

[B]

I was like.

[C]

I was like, you're so pale.

[B]

Like, I was like hammering like a panel.

[A]

He was on all fours eating worms out of the ground.

[B]

And then we just went to some random room in like the middle of the building.

[C]

We went to. They had like lounges upstairs and lounges downstairs.

[B]

And we just like sat there looking at each other in our pajamas, just like, what time is it?

[C]

I tried to sleep and you just.

[B]

Kind of continued to go stared into space. My daughter woke up at 3am a couple days ago.

[A]

Nice work if you can get it.

[B]

Seriously. And I go up there and I'm like, what is it? You know, what's going on? You know, Cuz you're like, okay, you had a bad dream. Yet, like. And she was just like, it's dark outside. And I was like, it's the middle of the night.

[C]

That's what happens.

[A]

How funny would it be if your daughter, you find her awake at three o' clock in the morning and she's just tapping a security panel. Blurry eye, like she really is my child.

[C]

I want to be clear. It was the tapping of the security panel while also trying to message the Airbnb hosts while also. I don't know how you did this. Both hands rubbing against each other in.

[A]

Fright, but it was the.

[B]

The fire alarm was going off in the building.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Which was not our doing. But then I used to compounded it by activating the. Activating like a security alarm on top of the fire alarm.

[C]

I mean, it's funny thinking back, right? It's funny. Not.

[B]

It's funny.

[A]

It's funny.

[B]

I just remember that I couldn't see. And this is a true tragedy. Darren Aronofsky's the Whale at Tiff, because I was so fucking tired because of that, so I had to see it later. But I did get to see it, though, so don't worry.

[C]

Yeah. While you were at Tiff, though, the only thing you knew about it was that one image.

[A]

That one David for the list is doing a perfect impression of the picture. And now can I. Can I make requests?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Can you do Leo at the Flowers Moon?

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

He's. No, he's.

[C]

Isn't he looking up?

[B]

Oh, is he looking up?

[A]

Aren't the hands more forward on the table?

[B]

You're. You're correct. You're referring to. Again, this is somewhat deep lore for our listeners.

[A]

Might not know one publicity. Still.

[B]

Two movies that had four, what felt like a year, only one public. Still now, the Killers of the Flower Moon one was fine. It was Leo and Lily Gladstone sitting at a table. It was a boring. But there was nothing that odd about it. The whale one, of course, was just, you know, Brendan Frazier in this makeup going like. And you're just. And like. It's called the Whale. And at a certain point you're like, this is starting to feel insulting.

[A]

It was just. It was just that one image. And then they revealed the poster. And the poster was that image with text over. That was the funniest. Heightened to just be like. And the poster is once again just the look.

[C]

Just the look.

[A]

The look.

[B]

Okay, so let's get that Flowers of the Killer Moon face one more time. Also, it's called Killers of the Flower Moon, but I'll actually change it to Flowers of the Killer Moon.

[C]

Did you say cut on yourself?

[B]

That's the horror version.

[A]

That's the live, die, repeat.

[B]

And then, of course, there's my favorite movie, Flowers of the Lazy Old Moon.

[A]

Oh, here's a conversation I want to pin that we're going to have. Which of these fake movies.

[B]

Great question. Okay.

[A]

Who do you most want to watch?

[B]

All right, so let's talk about.

[A]

I said pin for later, but I guess we're doing it now. David's trying to skirt the impression.

[B]

Oh, what's the impression?

[A]

I have to do the table.

[B]

Oh, let me get the image.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I want to. I want to really study it, you know, I want to, like, bring in my, like, sense memory. Okay. Yeah, it's this.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, the hands are under the table.

[B]

They're under the table. And then I'll do. I'm going to do Lily Gladstone now.

[A]

Okay, good. Right. And she's kind of bummed.

[B]

David kind of.

[A]

Yeah. Cradled himself.

[C]

She looks cold and he looks sweaty.

[B]

The thing is. And then I saw that movie really early.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because of can.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it was the Leo pointing at the screen meme. When they're sitting at the fucking table, you're like, yes, yes.

[A]

Here they are. Our buddy Siddhan's past and future guests wrote a really good piece about how interesting that shot is in the context of the movie.

[B]

I mean, that scene in the movie is so good, right.

[A]

And is so different than what as a, like, online pilled movie obsessive. You would imagine the scene was, after 18 months of seeing it, the scene.

[B]

In the whale too, where he goes like this.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was also so good.

[C]

Again. Again.

[B]

Again. 80% of the movie.

[A]

The look. Again.

[C]

Again.

[A]

One more. You know what movie blows goats?

[B]

The Whale. The Whale is one of those movies that, like, my children will come to me decades from now being like, is this fake? This one awards like. Like people melted gold and put them in casts.

[A]

It is an anecdote I've repeated so many times. But my. My younger sister Romuli, who was born in 1998, this anecdote watched American time, like five years ago in the pandemic and was like, can you explain to me how this happened? Was like, I'm. I'm just actually befuddled. Explain to me what I was too young to understand. This came out and was a box office sensation and swept the Oscars in one of the most iconic years of all time in American cinema.

[B]

What do you mean? American Beauty. It's got a great pitch. So there's this Pedophile.

[C]

And. What are you talking about, Griffin? I mean, like, all she needs to do is just watch a plastic bag.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Drifting in the wind.

[B]

It is so funny. They're like, what's the A plot? It's like he wants to A high school. And like, Jesus. Okay, what's the B plot? These teens get really into a plastic bag. Like, are you kidding me? This is the B plot.

[A]

This guy wants to his daughter's friend.

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

So that's the conflict. No, he gets what he wants.

[B]

No, he's. That's the goal.

[A]

He's miserable that he has a career in a nice house.

[C]

I have no notes. I don't know what you're laughing about.

[A]

He gets shot at the end. And the audience cheers. No, they cry.

[B]

No, they're sad about it.

[A]

Yeah, we want the death of a hero. Berman said what we were all afraid to say.

[C]

Best Picture. Best Picture.

[B]

It's also so weird.

[A]

People were yelling, best Picture.

[B]

Best Picture. But he, like, jacks off to roses. What a weird guy.

[A]

So weird.

[B]

What a weird movie.

[A]

Doesn't he say.

[B]

Does he say that movie has so much masturbation in it.

[A]

Does he say bashing the bishop or choking something?

[B]

Like, he has the whole bit where he says, like, five of, like, walks.

[A]

In on him in the show.

[B]

I was doing this, doing that, you know, but I can't remember what they were. But, yeah, saying hi to my father.

[A]

Spanking the monkey.

[B]

It's sort of like an Austin Powers moment.

[A]

Yeah, it is.

[B]

Right. Where he's like.

[A]

And of course, he would later become Dr. Evil in many ways. Hail Caesar.

[C]

Yes, I have. I feel like we're bumming people out. We keep going down.

[B]

Lazy old.

[A]

Okay, yes. Let's get back to this. This. When I'm out on the lazy old moon sequence, I am like, it would be really fun to watch this whole movie. It's. It's hardest to imagine the scenes around it where I'm like, this could go anywhere. I don't. What.

[C]

What do you think happens?

[A]

I don't know, because it feels like.

[C]

He lassos the moon.

[A]

I hope so.

[C]

I hope he lassos the moon. Oh, my God, I hope he lassos that damn moon.

[B]

So I opened the, you know, the dossier, which we can start looking at for hail scenes written by J.J. bersch. And then I got a chat notification within the dossier from JJ Burch saying.

[A]

How are you liking Shirley for me? Tell him he's fired. Tell him that Shirley has fired him.

[C]

Hey, J.

[A]

Miss you JJ what's the name of the no Dames movie? Do they. Do they.

[C]

Homoeroticism.

[A]

Because we have Hail Caesar, the tale of the Christ we have. Right. There's. I guess the main ones are Lazy Old Moon, the no Dames film, the new Lawrence Lawrence film that Hobie's doing.

[B]

I'm trying to find the names of all of the.

[C]

And then the Aquatic, Merrily We Dance, Esther Williams one.

[A]

I think Merrily We Dance is the. The is the Tatum.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, I'd assume. Right. Which is that sort of an Anchors Away or On the Town type movie? Obviously, Hail Caesar's sort of like a Ben Hur movie.

[A]

To me, that is the most transcendent sequence in the movie, which is no Dames is like. Every time I watch that, it is like nirvana for me when we will talk about it in that. It smells like teen spirit. But I do. I am most interested in the idea of watching 90 minutes of lazy Old Moon. Whereas watching the no Dame sequence, I'm like, that's a full meal.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And I think it is that I want to know, like, how the relationships evolve in Lazy Old Moon and what.

[B]

I like the old guy, too. Yeah. A portly restaurateur.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's always good.

[A]

Like, here's. Okay, going off of what you're saying, Shirley, I could imagine the plot of that movie being Crazy Old Guy, Lazy.

[C]

Old Moon, Crazy Old Guy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Tell Colby.

[A]

This dang moon keeps eluding me. Don't you have a good lasso? You have to bring the moon back to me. And Hobie's character has to figure out how to satisfy his demand. Right. And then in the process, like, fucking romances his daughter or whatever.

[B]

Okay. The movies are Hail Caesar, a Tale of the Christ, which has obviously been her covadis, those kind of movies. Lazy Old Moon, a classical. What variety used to call an otuner, I think, which is like, basically like a cowboy film with music. Exactly. Sort of a Roy Rogers type movie. Jonah's Daughter is the name of the mermaid. Busby Berkeley type movie.

[A]

The whale.

[C]

Did someone say the whale?

[A]

Do the look.

[B]

I think there's literally a movie called Million Dollar Mermaid. That's one of those Bucsie Berkeley.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Obviously on the town. Anchors Away is sort of being done as that movie doesn't have a title. So no Dames, I think, is the best.

[A]

Okay, we'll make that.

[B]

The functional Merrily We Dance is the kind of lubichi, you know, society comedy. Right. It's complicated. Pretty funny joke there.

[A]

There. That moment is another moment in this film that almost tears me up.

[B]

Oh, like the. The. The final hammer of that joke dropping an hour later, basically, or 45 minutes.

[A]

It's funny. And I love how they. Yes, the. The patience and also the sort of circuitous way they resolve that storyline. But also, I'm like. I actually find it kind of emotionally profound. Like, I think that is not to get ahead of things, but, like, especially that. That scene is Frances McDormand, right? Wife of one Coen brother playing an editor. The position that the other Coen wife occupies, right? These two ultimate wife guys who love making movies with their wives, right? And love movies. And you have this scene where, like, she is playing an editor showing this footage and. And in it, I think they are quietly capturing the magic of, like, you have seen this fucking disastrous day of shooting where you're like, how is anything good gonna come out of this, right? And they can't get this fucking line out. And even before the hammer blow of, oh, they cracked it. They figured out what his movie star Persona is. You need to adjust it around him. But if you change the line, he'll nail that delivery so fucking hard. And it will convey something greater than what was the original plan. The sort of like living text of, like, what they say that, like, movies get written three times, right? They're written on paper, they're written on the shoot, and they've written in the edit. And that's like a thing that I think the Cohen's like, love that feels like magical about movies. But also in the assembly she's showing him. Before you get to that line, you see two shots of him closing the door and him walking from the door to the couch that when you see them play out earlier in the movie, you're like. Like, this is horrendous. His walk is so awkward. He's doing this cowboy walk. He's like, clearly self conscious about how big the door was. And he looks behind him, and in that moment, it's like, these are laughing films of, like, this guy can't pull this off. And in the way that they edit it, it suddenly has a new context where him looking back at the door behind him is because they placed the insert shot of the briefcase in the hallway before it. And his awkward walk, when framed from, like, shoulders up, feels like nervousness rather than, this guy doesn't know how to walk. And, like, that magic of it. And he doesn't, like, fucking brolin. Doesn't overplay it. He doesn't have some tears in his eyes moment he doesn't go. That's the magic of the movies. But I do see on his face, he's like, yeah, these things, you give them time and they work out. I was right. You know, it's true.

[C]

And then she nearly chokes to death.

[A]

Well, no, it happens right before. That's the thing. He saves her from death and then he sees. It's complicated. It's a miracle.

[B]

Well, so much of the magic that has worked in this movie is sort of serendipitous. It's not Eddie. Eddie is often kind of like, oh, I figured itself out. You know, sort of burn after reading. Adjacent in a way.

[A]

That fucking moment at the table too with Allison Pill where he's like, oh, that problem solved itself.

[B]

Right, right, exactly.

[C]

I find that moment and it ties the whole film together for me.

[A]

Right.

[C]

It's like, it's like at home, at work, he has all these things that he needs to take care of or he thinks he needs to take care of. But it's kind of like the magic of the movies that you're talking about also kind of bleeds into just the magic of working in the movies. Yes. And it all. It all works itself out. It does, but does it without someone caring about it?

[A]

That's surely. That's the X factor. Right. Like the moral conflict at the center of this movie, at least within the Eddie Mannix character and his arc Mark. Right. Is the like, is this job killing me? Am I like a babysitting lunatic children all day and like putting out insane fires for something that feels frivolous. Right. At a time where like Hollywood is mostly into like distraction entertainment, escapist entertainment, light fair. Because people need to like forget their troubles, you know.

[B]

Got you guys this character post David painting that.

[A]

We're going to talk about that for I do not exaggerate. 45 minutes. Pin in that.

[C]

But that's also the magic of the movies. If it's doing the whale again, it really doesn't work for a bunch.

[A]

I know, but it's so funny when he does it. And by the way, guys, we're not.

[B]

Going to video, so wouldn't be as funny on video.

[A]

It wouldn't. I agree. It's. It's the theater of the mind. Eddie Mannix is a real guy constantly, but.

[B]

But also semi fictionalized version of a real guy.

[A]

This movie is not attempting to represent the real Eddie Mannix at all. But they're using the name of a gu. Was this type of guy who's played by Bob Hoskins in Hollywoodland that's right.

[C]

Hollywoodland. Yes. I once had a. Well, okay, I had a birthday party at a Lowe's theater, and we watched Hollywoodland. And I. Well, there was nothing coming out that week.

[B]

Five or six or something. Like, when was that?

[A]

My memory.

[B]

We're not very young.

[A]

My memory is that all Lowe's theaters in New York were became AMCs.

[C]

Yes, they did.

[A]

Around that time.

[C]

This one did. This was in New Brunswick, New Jersey. And I turned to look at my friends and four of them had fallen asleep.

[B]

Yeah, four out of four.

[A]

Friends.

[B]

Wait, so 2006. Shirley, I'm gonna. I'm gonna say you were, what, 17? How old? 18, 15. Jesus.

[A]

You're 16.

[B]

Young person. Although it's not like now. And Shirley's having to deal with this now at the Atlantic.

[C]

Oh, yes.

[B]

People. And I'm like. And they're grown people. Yeah, fully grown.

[A]

You know, they work. This is the worst.

[B]

And then I'm like, wait, when were you born? And they're like, you know, well, I'm this. Or they say their age, and I'm like, were you born after 9 11? And they're like, no, no, no. I was born two months before 9 11. I'm like, the.

[A]

The. I remember the first time. I remember the first time I had a conversation with a child who had been born after 9 11. And I. I had the thought of, oh, it's crazy that children born after 911 can now string together sentences.

[C]

You should meet my sister.

[B]

And now they went to an 8 year old.

[A]

And I was like, it's crazy that someone born after 9, 11 could be old enough to walk on their own two feet without support. And now, yes, they. They're taking over our work.

[C]

They have their. They have their own jobs. They have their own opinions. I'm sorry, we're the last generation allowed to have opinions, Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's disgusting. They should. Right, Exactly.

[A]

They should be silent, engage in the marketplace of ideas, exit.

[C]

They have a role.

[B]

I cannot believe you saw. Wait, so you said 15? You saw Hollywood Land when you were.

[C]

There was nothing else.

[A]

David, this is why Shirley stays with us. I'm telling you, this is why Shirley is on our show. I'm telling you, this is some real blankie coated tea. That would be like high school Hollywoodland birthday party.

[C]

I was like, we're gonna go see Hollywood Land.

[B]

Do you like it when Adrien Brody's tired?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Oh, he's so tired in that movie.

[B]

Because it's like that. The jacket. Cadillac Records. Brothers Bloom like this Run of Like, well, he's still an Oscar winner where he has to play a tired guy.

[C]

But don't you love Ben Affleck trying to be Superman? Trying to do like.

[B]

I have never seen Hollywoodland. Is it any good?

[A]

I remember.

[B]

I remember Affleck was the one.

[A]

People talked about not liking Affleck's performance in it. It cool. Liking everyone else in it, thinking the movie was overall kind of a snooze. Not bad.

[C]

But you were one of my friends who fell asleep a little.

[A]

I might have taken a quick nap in the middle.

[B]

Now, Cheryl, your birthday is early September. I know this because we often celebrate your birthday at tiff.

[C]

Yes, we do.

[B]

So I'm looking at movies you could have seen then just doing a little sort of micro box office game. You could have gone to see the Covenant.

[C]

You think I want to see?

[B]

Come on. Isn't that like hot boys doing magic or something? Yeah.

[A]

Steven Straight. Sure.

[C]

Well, are you saying that Ben Affleck's not a hot bo.

[A]

Way. Yeah.

[B]

Sebastian Stan. You could have gotten on this stage.

[C]

No, I know. That's a. I missed that train.

[A]

That was one of the poutiest movies of 2000.

[B]

That was. But that's when, like, the Sebastian Stan train was like a guy operating a hand, right? It's like, so now this push cart.

[A]

Man from over other.

[B]

Exactly. He's like a sleek bullet train that everyone's like, get me on that train. You.

[A]

I mean, fantasy put it so well beyond just like him having these two movies last year that were such good showcases for actual acting, right? He was like, sebastian Stan shows up in Thunderbolts. And you're like, is this guy James Dean? Now he's played Bucky, and suddenly I'm like, griffin dude is liquid gold.

[B]

Exactly how I felt watching Thunderbolts. And like, he's in the first chunk where he's playing sad congressman Bucky. And I'm like, this is kind of funny. But like, whatever. And then he rides in on a motorcycle looking like the Terminator. He finally has his own theme.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

His only theme before then in all his movies is just like a scream. Because he's the Winter soldier, Right.

[A]

Did Sebastian stand. But come.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Really nice burn on that movie. I did Sebastian Stan, but I'm like, I'm excited. CEO of Minute Maid. Because this guy has all the fucking juice.

[B]

He really wanted to get that out. I just could not believe that, like, my blood pressure was going up at the site of Sebastian Stan.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

After years of me being like, yeah, C plus B minus on that guy.

[C]

Like, yeah, the train. I got on the train with Gossip Girl.

[A]

But then.

[B]

Did you ever get off the train?

[C]

Did I. No, I didn't get off the train. I never got off the train. I was on the train during Once Upon a Time. I'm so sorry.

[A]

I was talking to past and future guest John Gabris, friend of the show, who I believe has a February birthday or January birthday. I'm a February birthday, but September is similar. Where in our childhoods it was like.

[B]

You'Re guaranteed Slim Pickens.

[A]

If you are a movie kid and your default is, can we do a movie birthday? You're gonna go see some. And there was one year. I'm sure I've said this on the show, but despite being a February kid in 2002, I was like, I'm gonna make my birthday say Spider Man. And people were like, that's May. And I'm like, yeah, I'm just gonna.

[B]

Right. It's. You're like the Queen of England where you're like, two birthdays now, right?

[A]

Yeah, I'm just saving my birthday party until Spider man comes out.

[B]

You could have seen the third weekend of the inspirational football drama Invincible. Not a bad movie. Saw it on a plane.

[C]

Oh, no. I'm so sad I missed Invincible, directed by Erickson Core.

[A]

Yeah, you never forget a name like Erickson.

[B]

You never do. He sounds like a sort of of thing you have to buy for your car.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You're gonna need an Ericsson Core. Your battery is low, you know, is burning out.

[C]

I mean, you're not gonna find a film that I'm gonna be like. Yeah. Oh, wait, I saw Crank.

[B]

So you'd already seen it before.

[C]

I had seen Crank with my dad.

[B]

Illusionist with. I had seen the Illusionist Orange Tree.

[C]

Yes. I had seen all other options. I don't know. I thought I was getting on a horse that would run far. I don't know why.

[B]

You know what I mean? There was the mild, quiet, kind of.

[A]

Like half like, back my friends will than when Affleck is accepting an Academy Award seven months from now.

[C]

They will be so sad that they're missing 15 minutes of this.

[B]

No, because it's 2006. It's not. It's that he makes Gone Baby Gone the next year. And everyone's kind of like, okay, Affleck back. Yes, but I'm saying get an Oscar.

[A]

Buzz in the summer.

[B]

Oh, was. Maybe he'll get out.

[A]

Surely logic was, my friends will judge me now. But when he wins the Oscar for Best Supporting actor, they'll be like, surely.

[C]

They'Re going to like, she knows her shit.

[B]

So I'm going to open the dossier instead.

[C]

I had to apologize to them.

[B]

Yeah, I think all of us in this room, Ben, probably not, but the rest of us have had that screening we dragged our friends to where afterwards you had to actively be like, I'm sorry that I made you come to this.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

For me it was Alexander. Like I got a lot of people ready, you know, like and they that they were ready to feed me to a mob after that. Like they like throw me to the lines.

[A]

I had already seen Hulk and I told all my middle school friends, you don't understand. Movie of the summer. I'm going again. We all gotta go. And I truly I, I, I cannot believe I made it out of that night alive.

[C]

They were all, they were all just as angry. Was the titular game.

[A]

Are you talking about. What's the energy? David?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

This episode is brought to you by mubi, the global film company that champions great cinema. From iconic directors to emerging auteurs, there is always something new to discuss. And with mubi, each and every film is hand selected so you can explore the best of cinema. Streaming anytime, anywhere. But also. David.

[B]

No.

[A]

That's it.

[B]

That done no good. Recommendation of mubi.

[A]

No. What Also projected upon the silver screen.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Movie releases films too in physical movie theater.

[B]

And they've got a humdinger called Die My Love.

[A]

It's the new picture from Lynn Ramsey, someone I have long maintained is one of our finest living filmmakers.

[B]

That is true.

[A]

A genius in my opinion. It is coming to US theaters on November 7th. It is a visceral and uncompromising portrait of a woman engulfed by love and madness. Who's playing that woman, David?

[B]

Jennifer Lawrence. Have you heard of her? This film is excellent.

[A]

You've seen it?

[B]

I sure have.

[A]

I am dying to see it, I guess. Dying my love to see it.

[B]

Yes. It starts with Jennifer Lawrence and Robert Pattinson. Two of our are very exciting stars.

[A]

And stinkin Batman themselves.

[B]

They are playing a couple who moves out to the woods to Montana to raise their kid. After they have a kid and feel normal, everything goes regular for them in their brains when they do this.

[A]

This is her first film since youe Were Never Really Here. One of my favorite movies of the last decade.

[B]

Yes, it was a can. It's very, very intense. Very incredible performance from Jennifer Lawrence. Especially in my opinion. Awesome soundtrack that I think Ben's gonna dig.

[A]

I think Lynne Ramsey makes movies differently than anyone else on the planet. I feel like she is uniquely skilled at a kind of method she has created for depicting the inner life through sound and image. Her movies thrill me. And I will say, if you're a listener of this podcast, it might be beneficial to go see Die My Love sooner rather than later. Winky, Winky. Die My Love is now in theaters.

[B]

Go see it.

[A]

You can visit mubi.com dye my love for showtimes and tickets. And to stream great films at home, you can try Mubi free for 30 [e-mail] blankcheck that's M U B I.com blank check for a whole month of great cinema for free.

[B]

In 1998, I'm opening the Cut Dossier. Ethan Cohen said, I'm gonna finish my.

[A]

Annie Manx point later. I'm just pinning that along. I just want the listener to know I haven't forgotten.

[B]

Told the Los Angeles Times that he and his brother had done some writing assignments before adapting other people's scripts on an unattributed basis. The Cohen say, we don't really want to put our names on stuff like that because we're not really in control of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I feel like movie fans know that, that occasionally the Cohens have done a pass on a movie you liked that much.

[A]

Pta, Right? Like pta, where now there's more stuff he gets credit for. But I think there's a lot of shit where people are like, pt, can you spend a weekend and just make this dialogue more interesting? Yeah.

[B]

In the middle, late, early to mid 2010s, they get start to get some credit for some of these. So you got Gambit, of course, which was eventually released, sort of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You. The Angelina Jolie film Unbroken, which they have a credit on.

[A]

Bridge of Spies, of course.

[B]

Bridge of Spies, which supposedly they really just did the sort of chunk in the middle.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Where he's in Berlin, right?

[A]

Berlin. Jesus. Yes, yes.

[B]

And Unbroken. They came aboard late after Jolie was attached to. Angelina Jolie directed that movie. And she basically was like, I want you guys to come aboard. I want the film to have structure and wit and playfulness between the men, which is very interesting. That, like, I don't think that movie's very good, but that Jolie, who I think is a more talented filmmaker than some credit her for, had the sort of, like, knowledge of, like, here's the pro. Here's what needs strengthening in the movie. And weirdly, I think the Cohen brothers will work for.

[A]

I'm not hiring you to do the Coen brothers thing. I'm recognizing that you are multi skilled and you're good technicians and I want you to just help crack this. Of course. Lady Killers and Todd Cruelty both start out as assignment jobs for them that they weren't going to direct and then become. We've.

[B]

When we've talk about those movies already, Brad. And she mentions that she knew them partly because Brad Pitt had done Burn after Reading when she was. She was with him when that happened.

[A]

And she was with Notes and that marriage ended perfectly and she was with Billy Bob Thornton.

[C]

It was unbroken. Yes.

[B]

People forget she was with Billy Bob Thornton when he did. Man who wasn't there. So she had experienced.

[C]

David is pounding the table.

[A]

I don't want to be crass, but I'm just quickly imagining a life in which you wake up every morning next to Angelina Jolie. You go to set and film the man who wasn't there.

[B]

Right. You have to play cuck of the.

[A]

Year and then you wrap production for the day and you go home and you have sex with Andrew.

[B]

Guilty. He. I'm sure he could not. It would have broken his character into a billion pieces.

[A]

I think. I think Billy Bob got the range.

[B]

Yeah, he does.

[A]

I think that's what makes Billy Bob Billy Bob is that he could do that. That he. He would rap for the day, take off his toupee, put his vial of blood necklace back on.

[B]

Now around when they're.

[A]

And they go to Pound town.

[C]

I don't want a picture.

[B]

No, picture it.

[A]

Picture it.

[B]

Around the time that they work in Hail Caesar. These are certain things. That's why J.J. i think, is giving us this color. This is the kind of stuff they're working on around Hail Caesar.

[A]

And this is a nice kind of swan song for JJ as he's fired.

[B]

Yeah, exactly. They claim that they were working on a sort of Sword in Sandals movie. I always wondered if that was a joke or not because obviously this movie has a parody of a sword and sandals movie in it.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

They also claimed they were working on a musical where the main character was gonna be an opera singer. Never has been realized. Another thing that happened around this time is that Suburbicon, which is a script that they had written back in 1986, essentially starts to spool up with George Clooney in the director's chair. And George Clooney added a little twist to it.

[A]

Poop. A movie I still never seen.

[B]

You never seen Suburbicon? It is insane.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because it is half a Coen Brother script and half a George Clooney script.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the Coen Brothers script is like, you're like, yeah, this is like a Coen brothers movie. It's like, you know, dumb, dumb gangsters. Then the other half is this, like, really somber tale about, like, integration. And, like, it's so weird. Such a weird.

[A]

It is. It is just funny that I feel like, right, this era of their names actually getting credited on these things they wrote kept having this juice of like, holy shit. The Coen brothers wrote Unbroken. Is this gonna win best Picture? And then people saw it and they were like, oh, they clearly were like, skilled hired hands on this. This does not have Coen brothers identity.

[B]

They screwed some nuts, right?

[A]

And then like, Suburbicon and Gambit, people were like, oh, I guess these scripts only work if they direct them themselves. And like Bridge of Spies, which we love, as you said. It's like they were kind of pinch hitters.

[C]

Suburbicon. I remember being one of those when I was still at ew. I don't know if this is shame sharing trade secrets. Maybe it is, but it's like when we would do the fall movie preview, summer movie preview, whatever, insert season here, movie preview. Some people would see some of the films in advance. And I remember this one because of the pedigree. It had a little bit more room on the page. And then as the Clooney, as the bus died down, it got smaller and smaller. And I remember it was a tiny.

[A]

Little piece of that preview circle.

[B]

Tiny little circle.

[A]

It was one of those movies where you were looking at the fall preview and you were like, I don't know if this is going to win best picture, but I am guaranteed to have a good time. You're like, clooney's directing a coin script with Julianne Moore, Matt Damon and Oscar Isaac.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I will have a blast. And everyone came back and was just like, huh, Weirdly anti fun. No opposite of interesting.

[B]

So back when George Clooney first works with the Coen brothers in a little movie called oh, Brother, Where Art Thou?

[A]

They sort of fall in love. They're like, this guy is so good at playing idiots. We love idiots.

[B]

They match. Really?

[A]

We have a movie star who unlocks financing immediately.

[B]

Also true.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And they at that point, apparently tossed off an idea to him that's kind of like, what if, like, a matinee film idol who's making, like, a Ben Hur type movie gets kidnapped?

[A]

Sure.

[B]

That was sort of the intent. That was like, the entirety of the pitch.

[A]

There was also, at some point, they were teasing because they do intolerable cruelty, which once again, like, kind of comes together weirdly. Sideways. And they plug Clooney into it. And they're like, now that we've done two, we need to complete our Idiot trilogy. And they kept saying, the third movie in the Idiot trilogy will be Hail Caesar. They had the title.

[B]

They did. They always had that title.

[A]

People would push them on it. They were like, it's basically a one sentence idea. There's no script. We haven't really cracked it, but we like the idea. And the other thing that would always get thrown out was like, he's in a traveling company doing a production of Julius Caesar.

[B]

That is another idea that they definitely explained is like, maybe that's what Hail Caesar is. I feel like, like you said, they were sort of like, hail Caesar. Set in past acting involved Clooney, stupid.

[A]

Him playing tiny dumb star in some kind of period piece.

[B]

Apparently. Another thing they pitched at that time was called Adolf Terry Hitler, an alternate universe comedy in which Hitler's parents immigrated to LA in the 1900s and their son grows up to be a Hollywood big shot and the eventual manager of a Hitler agency.

[A]

There's like that where I wonder if they're trolling us or if on their cloud drive there is the greatest.

[B]

Or they wrote 30 pages and they were like, what are we doing? And then those 30 pages are very funny.

[C]

No, no, no, guys. I think they were just, you know, they're brothers playing Mad Libs.

[B]

Adolf Terry.

[C]

I think they were having a great little sleepover.

[B]

They start generating, right? And they would always tell George that his character would, quote, be a gas baggy fathead. And for some reason that really appealed to him. Ethan. Gas baggy fathead is George's forte. So Hail Caesar would come up a lot. But of course, what they call the Numbskull Trilogy, they end up making a tolerable cruelty. And then they do burn after Reading.

[A]

And people are like, I guess Hail Caesar was never a thing.

[B]

Right after burn after Reading, George said, like, have I played my last idiot for you guys? You know, it's sort of like, you know. But it was always on IMDb. Clooney notes this, that because I guess they talked about it enough, there was literally just kind of like, hail Caesar. Joel Cohen, Ethan Cohen, George Clooney. No plot, no nothing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so finally they sit down to write the thing because they're like, everyone's gonna get too old anyway. And they describe it as a movie about the movie business and life and religion and faith. Faith in the movie business. And they eventually decided to make Eddie Mannix the main character. And George is Like an important character, but he's.

[A]

George Hash.

[B]

Brolin is the lead of the movie.

[A]

Yes, it is funny how this film with its all star cast just settled its billing order by alphabetical and yet that alphabetical ends up being Clooney, Brolin, Clooney, Aaron Reich.

[C]

I mean, it's serendipity outside of the movie and in the movie, right?

[A]

Totally. But it's like the three guys are in the right positions and you're right, you're right. I just always. It's kismet.

[B]

So, you know the characters they create. Scarlett Johansson. Johansson's playing kind of Master Williams. Alden. Eric is like Tim Holt. Channing Tatum is like gay. Or Gene Kelly. Clooney is kind of like a Robert Gay communist.

[A]

Gene Kelly.

[B]

Right.

[A]

One of the coolest movie star moves for Channing Tatum. At this moment of so much heat, to be like, I'm doing deep supporting for the Cohens. It is only three scenes, but one of those scenes is going to require months of choreography. And I'm playing a gay communist. He's just like King Schmidt. I want to explore stuff. I'm not like, trying to preserve a, like, safe career.

[C]

I mean, the months of training. Because he wasn't a tap dancer.

[A]

Right, right.

[C]

Like, and tap, like, so he, he does hip hop dancing per person.

[B]

Step up boy.

[C]

But yeah, tap.

[B]

I mean, stick it to.

[C]

No, yeah, Step up.

[A]

Step up. Stick.

[B]

It is gymnastic.

[A]

Yes. Yeah.

[C]

You don't, you don't stick it in dancing.

[A]

Yeah, you're right. Stick it to Missy Peregrine. And is. And we love five star masterpiece. Yeah.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

And we love gymnastics.

[A]

We do. Yeah.

[C]

Right. So he, he spent months training in tap. And tap is like. I mean, I don't, I, I'm not a dancer. I, I take like adult ballet classes. I know I'm in Hobby City over here.

[A]

Okay. Okay.

[C]

And it's just kind of like tap is sort of impossible to, to get within a couple months. But look at this guy. He did it. Here's the thing, right? Like, tap is like. The skill of tap is relatively invisible. We do not have to go down this tangent, but like, tap is one of those, you know, forms where it's kind of like you can't really tell what the skill is when you're watching tap dancing. You hear the rhythms and things like that, but it's just like, it just doesn't translate well as, like a really skillful piece of, I don't know, like a form of dancing.

[A]

Well, the magic trick is that it?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Especially I Think how it's been historically used in American movies is that it is this kind of like. Like, quietly graceful off the cuff. I'm doing nothing.

[C]

Sort of like that's the gene matching around.

[A]

Yeah, right. And it's like, you have to put so much work into getting it perfect and then additional work into doing it without showing any effort.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And it's like, even beyond him having to learn tap on top of, like, what were obviously trained, like, dance muscles and the right brain for and all of that. This sequence is so complicated and just plays out in fucking, like, elegant wide shots.

[C]

And he sells it, like, every second of it.

[A]

Yeah, right. Like, and. And you're just like, that guy had to do a ton of fucking work for a really small part.

[C]

Yeah. I'm like, this is Olympic level work. I want to give Channing Tatum a medal. I want to give him so many medals. I believe every second of that choreography. Because, yes, he trained until he got it right. But at the same time, it's like there's. There's joy and delight in his face. The whole. The whole performance comes together and it's. And that is so hard to do.

[B]

But this is the second to last good movie. He made that.

[A]

Okay, so this is what I want to call out. So this was. He was at this point of, like, ascension. Ascension. Ascension, Right. Save for, like, a Jupiter Ascending or two.

[B]

We love those.

[A]

He was on a real. A fucking masterpiece. But he was on such a hot run. And it was like, this is the guy. And then he makes this.

[B]

Yes. In 2016, in 2017, he does Logan Lucky, which I think he's great in, but weirdly flops. It doesn't do that well.

[A]

And then he kind of disappears for, like, six years.

[B]

No. Kingsman, the Golden Circle, which he's bad in. And that Movie's bad. In 28. No, he's bad.

[A]

I think he's good in it. I think that movie is so insane because they clearly wanted him and he was too busy. And so his character, like, shows up, then is on ice, and then comes back at the end.

[C]

His character's name is Tequila. You just said he's on ice.

[A]

The Pedro.

[C]

I just want to put an asterisk.

[A]

10 comedy points, but the Pedro Pascal character is clearly supposed to be him as well. And instead the movie does this like.

[B]

You'Ve done this rant on this podcast before, which is fine. In 2018, of course, he is Migo.

[C]

Because Andea is Mei.

[B]

Correct. In Smallfoot. And then, yes, after that, it's basically like Cameo and Free guy is pretty much it. Until, of course, he returns with Dog Dog. Right.

[A]

Which is a big.

[B]

Which is a hit and charming.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it was like, okay, I got it back. Bullet Train. Yeah.

[B]

And then Magic Mike's Last Dance, which is. Which is charming.

[A]

A movie I love, but really kind of belly flopped and was not well received.

[B]

And then Fly Me to the Moon, which is unfortunately never good.

[A]

I respect him for trying that. He's quite miscast.

[B]

And then. And then he was like, I'm about to go. He's got Gambit.

[C]

We do that again.

[B]

What does he say? What's the. What's the line? We about to name it. Make a name for ourselves. Whatever his thing is. The thing he does.

[A]

He also. He blinked twice.

[B]

Yeah. I don't.

[C]

He really shouldn't quite work.

[A]

I think he's good enough.

[B]

He's totally fine in it. I really hated that movie.

[A]

I love him so much. But it is interesting that this felt like. Weirdly, him doing this movie felt like such a show of power that it's like, I'm so above it. I can do anything I want. I'm not worried about the game. And then he kind of, like, completely, like, loses it disappears, like, waxes and wanes. Lost City felt like, oh, he's back in the pocket doing the thing everyone loves from him. And it was such a hit after years of no comedies connecting, that it was like, okay, so he's unstoppable again, and then once again, he's stoppable. Yeah, but this. I watched this movie and I'm like, this guy's like, one of the best raw movie star talents we have.

[B]

All right, but okay, anyway, back to the dossier.

[A]

Yes. Back to the doc.

[B]

Alden Ehrenreich famously discovered when Steven Spielberg saw him on a video made for a friend's bar mitzvah.

[A]

Correct. It was a comedy sketch that played at a bar mitzvah.

[B]

His initial big role is in Tetro, a normal movie directed by Francis Ford Coppola. That's normal. Highly normal film. And then he's also in Twixt. Another normal one from Coppola, I believe.

[A]

A small part, although I haven't seen that one.

[B]

He's also in Beautiful Creatures. That's him and Zoey Deutch being Beautiful creatures. No.

[C]

Alice Engler.

[A]

Yes. It's. It's Gene Campion's daughter.

[B]

Yes. Beautiful Creatures.

[A]

That was an attempt to find him.

[B]

He's like the lead of Twilight, right?

[A]

Yeah. He's the Edward Cullen. And I think it's like Southern Gothic witches or some.

[B]

He has a smallish role in Stoker, being a naughty boy.

[A]

Quite good.

[B]

He's good in that. Yeah, yeah. He's in Blue Jasmine. I honestly do not remember him in that. He is Time.

[A]

I want to say he's Cate Blanchett's son or he's Alec Baldwin's son.

[B]

Right.

[A]

He's got like two scenes he's very good at.

[B]

And there was this film that the rules didn't apply to, that he happens to, which comes out this same year.

[A]

Because Spielberg identifies him and marches him into whatever big agency he marched him into and was like, I'm telling you, this is like the discovery of a century.

[B]

Which, I mean, Spielberg kind of not wrong based on what we've just been.

[A]

Talking about the actual ability of this guy. Right, right. But there was this feeling of like, he's got it. And I. I think I knew him a little bit back in the day. And it was very interesting because you could feel the sort of pressure he had on him of everyone around him. Was like, you're the first DiCaprio we found in 20 years. We have to game this out really, really carefully. And so there were, like, big things that he would pass on or that they would tell him to pass on because they were like, is that the move young DiCaprio do?

[B]

Right.

[A]

We should position you for a tours. But then the Otur movies are like, right. Tetrone Rules and Apply, which was this.

[B]

Really coveted, interesting movies.

[A]

But then they don't totally work. And then they're like, I guess we need to make you a teen idol so you have the box office cachet to get the better OT movies. But then Beautiful Creatures is the one that doesn't work. He, like, tested for Spider man multiple times. He tested for Harry Osborne. There was all this sort of like, runner up. And he had sort of gotten into this place where there had been, like, so much energy around him for a decade, but he hadn't actually done that much because everyone around him was so overly cautious about what's the right move. And it's better to do less.

[B]

They put it in the lazy old moon.

[C]

That's.

[A]

That's the magic of this movie being like, oh, Cohen movie. And like, it's just suddenly this miracle, like, fully arrived, perfectly packaged. Incredible. An incredible showcase role to launch a new talent, but also about a guy.

[B]

Who does it all.

[A]

Nailing kills it so hard.

[C]

So charming.

[A]

Like, one of the best movie performances of the decade, in my opinion. I believe I nominated as such I.

[C]

Love his spaghetti lasso.

[A]

It's astonishing. And people were so rude to him after Solo. We're like, why the. Did they hire this guy? Yes, but not his fault. He was hired by different directors. I know what happened. Different movie. It doesn't work. But. But there was this energy of like, why'd they pick this rando? And I want to be like, watch. Hail Caesar, you ingrates. It was the wrong move for everyone involved.

[B]

Did you like him in Fair Play?

[A]

I never saw Fair Play.

[B]

I didn't like that movie. Did you like Cocaine?

[A]

I actually liked him a tremendous amount in Cocaine Bear, a movie that I think is quite poor. Yeah, it's fairly rancid, and I think he's very good.

[B]

Did you like him in Is the name of a Senator here? Like Oppenheimer? He's good in that.

[A]

I do think he's good. And he unfortunately gets saddled with the line.

[B]

Can I ask a question? What is Cocaine Bear about? Oh, it's about.

[A]

Reaganism run amok, guys.

[C]

No, it's about a whale.

[A]

It's about a. Do the look. It's gonna hit every time.

[B]

So one note on Channing Tatum. He had auditioned for no country for Old Men for the Josh Brolin part, which is hilarious.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

He's like, I was far too young, but I was so desperate to just literally get in front of the Coen brothers. Then I just wanted them to see. See me, you know, what I like.

[A]

Also in a meta way about.

[B]

So it paid off.

[A]

The use of Tatum here is that Tatum does feel like he's a bit of a Hobie, right? Sure. This guy that was sort of discovered without the aspirations of being a movie star. And it was just like, well, just dance on camera. And the people were like, you're pretty good on camera. Can we give you words? And it was like, well, you're not a great actor yet, but there's something here. And then he just, like, built and built and built and developed and unlocked all these skills.

[B]

This film was shot in.

[A]

In.

[B]

Huh. Los Angeles.

[A]

Crazy happens anymore sometimes. Call it On Shirley's Birther.

[B]

Obviously they needed it. You know, they needed to use these, you know, studios and back lots and all that fun stuff. It was universal release, although, of course, Capital Pictures made it as far. Yes. They used the Warner Brothers lot, though, mostly, and Union Station and things like that, which was a real.

[A]

I mean, it made for a difficult shoot because Yakko, Wacko and Dot kept escaping from the water tower and interrupting production.

[B]

Jesus. And the good. The good Feathers showed up Up. And that squirrel with the purse.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's her name?

[A]

And there were hippos who were a couple or some shit. It's funny that, like, you know when.

[B]

You watch Animaniacs and it's like, ah. It's the squirrel with the person going to zone out for five minutes. I hope they do the pigeon soon.

[C]

The truth is when they have the shot of the water tower, that's immediately where my mind goes.

[B]

It is funny like you'll be watching Oppenheimer and it's like. Or Tenant or whatever. And I'm like, yeah, but where's Wacko?

[A]

It is funny that Animaniacs and Pinky in the Brain were immediately and remain so sticky and everyone just forgets. There were like five other segments.

[B]

Yeah, good. Feathers was good. Got sa was good.

[A]

But I do think it's under sung.

[B]

And then what was the name of the squirrel with the purse?

[A]

Slappy.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

I think.

[B]

I think you're right.

[A]

And she had a. A little kid or some. Yeah. Who she. Who'd she slap with the purse? She hit someone with the purse. There was a sidekick squirrel. Oh yeah, yeah.

[B]

Elderly grouchy cartoon tree squirrel.

[A]

Did she have a little squirrel?

[B]

Skippy Squirrel. Was the.

[A]

A goddaughter or some.

[B]

So the Cohen said this. This was shot on film. And they were like, this is probably the last movie we're going to shoot on film.

[A]

Sad.

[B]

A little sad. Bruno Del shot inside L. Davis, of course.

[A]

And then getting back to the DE.

[B]

They go back to Mr. D. I think Deacons doesn't do Davis Cuz of Skyfall.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So this was Deacon's returning to films eluloid for the first time in a while. And you said like we kind of had to. We felt like for the era that we're, you know.

[A]

And I'll say this. This is one of the only modern movies I can think of that actually somehow captures Technicolor feelings. Like three strip, you know.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

Like when you watch old movies and you're like, why does nothing look like this anymore? And Eggheads will explain to you the alchemical process that changed. And it's like, but why can't we with our digital technology make anything look this good again? And this movie like has so many different styles. It has to emulate and it emulates all of them better than I feel like most people are able to pull off with one focus.

[B]

They are the best.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Retate Tatum's dancing. They. The Cohen's offer him the part.

[A]

Part.

[B]

And he's like, I don't sing or tap dance. Like, I want to work with you so bad, but I just FYI, I do not sing or tap dance. It became a six minute song with tap dancing and the script, apparently it's basically just like they do a song or whatever. So they tried to embrace his physicality, Shirley, that you're mentioning, because he can do things like flips and jumps.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So they try to put as much of that. And as Gattelli, the tap coach, what's his full name? Christopher Gattelli says it's a really hard skill and he'd never tapped before, ever. He learned 10 years of TAP training in three months. It was the most amazing thing to watch. I'm just kind of like, is this Johan Santana throwing a no hitter? I know nobody gets that reference, but after he did that, he was never the same pitcher ever again. And it's not like Channing's gone, but it's almost like, did Channing overload himself learning to tap dance for Hail Caesar? Those six minutes, him years to recover, truly.

[A]

I'm like, it's. I don't know. I don't. Like, in interviews with him, it doesn't feel like this guy lost it or he's washed. And I do feel like he talked about that, like when he hit so big, when he had his, like, Magic Mike vow, what was it? There was the one year where he had three hits in a row.

[B]

Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

$300 million hits in a row. And he became the most in demand guy. And I think he's like, I work too much. I, like, all the opportunities came in and I couldn't say no to anything and I burnt myself out. And I, like, my marriage fell apart and I wasn't seeing my kid and I was like, I want to take a break. And the break felt like a good mental health, like, space that then was maybe also elongated by pandemic and such. But I don't get the sense from him that, like, oh, there's something he lost that he can't get back or there's something broken.

[C]

Yeah. I think it's circumstances around him.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But like, if he has circumstances, decision.

[A]

We don't know. We don't know.

[B]

I feel like there was a time he talked about burning his penis on set.

[A]

The production of the Eagle is a profile that I believe was an esquire.

[C]

Maybe I just want to say that the choreographer for that sequence, I'm reading here on the Internet, he was also the resident choreographer for the Rosie Odonnell sh.

[A]

Hell, yes.

[C]

Do we care?

[B]

That's important.

[A]

Choreograph the arc of those Congress.

[B]

They need to know this. The year is 2012. Griffith the Vow, 21 Jump street and Match.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

That's his sort of really, really insane.

[A]

$300 million movies in the first six months of the year. And they. That's when they push back GI Joe, which was going to be his fourth movie that year, to be like, we fucked up. We got to shoot new footage.

[B]

And they. They split him up across the entire.

[A]

Movie because he originally died in the opening scene. Right? Yeah. I just think. I think you're. It's interesting what you're saying because you do watch this, and even though this is a small performance in a small part of the movie and so many ways, you're also like, the skill of what he's showing in the wattage and how hard he is selling just, like, multiple things at once while also, like, taking real chances. It was like, has this guy just unlocked, like, 20 new chambers?

[C]

Yeah, but here's the thing. He unlocks these chambers. I don't think. I don't. I. I don't think the opportunities unlocked for that for him because they weren't available. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's. It's kind of like. Well, it's kind of the argument that there aren't movie stars and that the real movie stars became superheroes, and then he was lined up to. And then that didn't happen.

[A]

Here's the thing I want to get your opinion on, because we've talked about this in the past, is like, part of the Wheel of the weird where did Channing go? Thing similar to Swayze, where they were both male stars who were disproportionately popular with women and were very comfortable making the genres of film that are often seen as women's films. And is that an audience that perhaps then wants to refresh with the younger guy faster versus, like, did Channem ever totally channel. Did channel ever totally win over, like, dudes?

[C]

That is a good question.

[A]

Not to be very binary.

[B]

No, no, I don't think so. Not really. Channing Tatum was never cool.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

In that. In the way you're describing.

[A]

And there is.

[B]

He was fun.

[A]

There is a thing when, like, guys are.

[C]

People didn't take him seriously.

[B]

Serious by being a big old goofball. Like, he's not real. And then when he did Foxcatch, like, when he's like, I'm making serious movies, it's like, you're really Suited to this role of like, kind of a lunkhead. He's amazing in that movie. I think he's crazy. I agree.

[A]

I think he's the best performance in that movie. But there's a similar weird. David's doing the Foxcatcher look. My nose is so big. I. I think there's a similar weird Swayze drop off where you're just like, how did this guy, like, have solid Ghost, Dirty Dancing, Point break? This guy's at the center of the culture and he can do everything. And it's not like he has like three embarrassing flops in a row. And it makes sense. You're just like. It just weirdly kind of tapers a little bit.

[B]

Wait, Ben. I was gonna add, I feel like though he has pretty consistently done modeling and fashion related work.

[A]

Yeah. Channing remains a major celebrity even as his, like, movie stardom goes through weird waves.

[C]

There will always be headlines about him because he has one project or another. Like, I don't mean film or TV projects. Like, he wrote like some picture books. Right. With his daughter or something. Yeah. So, like, his personal life is part of his professional life. Even though I just said that the circumstances outside of his professional life affected him.

[A]

I know we're hyper fixing and changing this episode, but part of what's interesting about this movie is how much it examines, like, the making of a movie star. Right. And how much of it is, like, timing, circumstance, crafting of a team around you. You know, sort of like context, opportunity, but also these weird X factors that are like, someone connects. Right. They work well on camera and the audience forms a relationship with them. And then you're sort of like, what is this relationship? And the like, success or failure to identify what is the thing that works about you and how can that be transmuted into other spaces so that you don't get repetitive. And some people, it's a real struggle to figure out, like, what is the thing I need to keep track of while also not getting stuck in a rut.

[B]

He's in Avengers Doomsday. His gambit. Yeah.

[A]

Thank God.

[C]

Did he get a chair?

[B]

Yeah, he got a chair.

[C]

He got a chair.

[A]

He got a chair.

[C]

Oh, man. Imagine getting a chair grocery.

[A]

Okay, I'm gonna do a sidebar for a second.

[B]

Right.

[A]

That's a gambit.

[B]

Let go.

[A]

Brian Reynolds did so many fucking emotional posts of like, I'm so proud of my friend Channing Tatum. We had similar journ of wanting so badly to play these Marvel characters and getting stuck in development hell. And I knew that feeling of fighting 10 years to get the Deadpool movie made when no one believed in it. And I saw the same thing happen to him, but he never actually got to make it. And to see us finally find a way to let him play Gambit and the public react so strongly, such a win from him. And I'm like, the whole fucking movie frames Gambit as being, like, a dumb fucking idiot. The bit is like, he's boomhower.

[C]

Nobody understands him.

[B]

But Gambit kind of is a dumb fucking idiot. I know, but I. I mean, God bless him.

[A]

I'm like, look, like Triumph of, like. Yeah, he got to wear the costume and people cheered and, like, you know, he's funny in it.

[B]

He's funny.

[A]

Like, this clearly isn't what he wanted to do with Gambit.

[C]

I mean, it's not really the return of Gambit if you don't have Anna Paquin back as Rogue. And we really set that up. I'm just saying I have opinions, but she's.

[B]

A woman can have opinions.

[A]

I don't know.

[C]

Did she get a chair? I didn't watch that. I rely on you to tell me.

[A]

They'Ll do an Avengers recap from me. Yeah.

[C]

I turn to you every day and I'm like, david, chair.

[B]

Chair. News.

[A]

Chair.

[B]

Chair.

[A]

What's.

[B]

What's chair? It would be funny if they restarted that, then added one more chair.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just like a random guy. Just like, oh, and the. The catering's being done.

[A]

That's a good question. Is that feed still live and just hasn't been updated in two months.

[B]

So do you want me to do the chairs?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You want me to read them aloud? It's two minutes long now.

[A]

Suck.

[B]

Chris Hemsworth.

[A]

The worst thing was when it was the live stream during the day, and every 30 minutes, they had another chair.

[B]

Anthony Mac.

[A]

I really thought that five hours on my life.

[C]

I don't know. I think I watched two chairs and then, I don't know, like, what's your threshold?

[B]

Letitia Wright.

[A]

I kept going in and out, and then I went to see a movie and then I came back.

[C]

So you dipped. You dipped with the chairs.

[A]

Chair was small. It was a smaller chair. The camera.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

Because he's.

[C]

I think someone sent, like, a screenshot to that, to a group chat or something. I was like, well, maybe I'll dip back into the chairs. But then I thought they wouldn't do anything else.

[A]

I was texting one of our group chats, and everyone was like, I can't believe you're still watching this. And I was like, just to be clear. Clear. I. I refresh it once every 30 minutes. I'm not glued to it.

[B]

I was glued to it.

[A]

I have control. I have power.

[C]

Also, when you said group chat.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I thought group chair.

[B]

Joseph Quinn.

[A]

That's actually really funny. Maybe we should rename.

[B]

It's just the thing.

[C]

I don't know what that is.

[B]

Here's an interesting Duke.

[A]

Here's the interesting thing. In retrospect. They announced the entire Thunderbolts cast other than Olga Korenko. Tom hit a real signpost of the fact that, like, this person not making it past the first trio.

[B]

Do you think.

[C]

Do you think. Do you think someone on Olga's team was, like, watching the whole thing, just hoping. Hoping they'd do a fake out, you.

[A]

Know, it was just so.

[B]

I think Olga's team was like, we'll happily take the fourth billing in $1 million for five days of work.

[C]

David, are you done reading the chairs?

[B]

Channing Tatum. Okay.

[C]

I mean, it's kind of like, you know, she shows up, does one line. It's holiday day's work.

[B]

Downey Jr and there he is, sitting in the chat.

[A]

Heard of him and her. One line is her superimposed. Her face superimposed into a stunt woman's body as her mask retreats quickly and it goes back.

[B]

She's like, I'm not here for you.

[A]

And it's like, she might have done that in her.

[B]

I mean, I swear to God, I mean, I know. How could you be mad? I. I take God's name in vain. Yes. Just that. Where they were, like, how many people in this team, like, fight with sticks? It's like, yeah, like, four. It's like, okay, we gotta lose at least one of those guys.

[A]

Like, Jesus, how many, like, foreign ladies with severe personalities and masks?

[C]

And she has the skills everybody else has because she can copy. Right.

[B]

That's the other problem. Taskmaster. No, it's Taskmaster's power. He copies other powers.

[A]

Like, okay, I think they were right to do it.

[C]

But once again, Rogue loses.

[A]

It's such a funny, like, Feige public handcuffing where they, like, make this big announcement of. Here's the cast of Thunderbolts three years ago. And they show the image, and they bring them all out on stage, and at some point, they change the plot, and they're like, maybe we need to drop one person. And they're like, fudge. We're still contractually obligated to give her fourth billing. She has $1 million, and we have to put her all over the marketing to trick people into thinking she's a proper team member. But the most half hearted effort. Effort.

[B]

I took the fourth billing as an apology as a sort of like you.

[C]

Know what happens in Hollywood land. Griff.

[A]

This is true. But also sometimes there's marvel you'll get fourth billing like fudgeing Michael Stolberg getting like fourth billing in multiverse of madness greatness. Sometimes there's like hey, if you do a sequel, you up in the billing and even if we end up giving you a tiny part, we can't knock you down.

[C]

Yeah, that's kind of like yeah. When you go from junior varsity to varsity and if you've still stuck around.

[B]

What were you?

[C]

Varsity volleyball.

[B]

Did you let her?

[A]

Yes.

[C]

I found my varsity jacket over the weekend show we don't need.

[B]

Where'd you play?

[C]

What do you mean?

[B]

Front, back, middle.

[C]

I was a barrow.

[A]

What's that?

[C]

That is like a defensive specialist but not the ds which is the defensive special.

[B]

You know, my wife was.

[C]

I'm the one who wears a different jersey color.

[A]

Your wife was a center?

[B]

A setter.

[C]

Oh, I mean great role. That's what most captains are, right?

[A]

I thought you were saying a center in basketball.

[B]

You know what I like to do?

[C]

Smash you like to smash your Hulk.

[A]

So I've got a question for all.

[B]

The gamers out there. Are you seriously going to miss out on Alienware biggest gaming sale of the year? I mean these are Black Friday prices we're talking about. So it's not quote, just another sale. I took a look and this is some pretty big bang for your buck. You know, it's alien Aware. I have an Alienware PC myself that I use for gaming. There's got some of the most advanced engineering out there with systems at the top of reviewers lists. And what about a gift for yourself? You can get gift yourself a new Alienware 16 Aurora gaming laptop. I mean this thing's got performance at the absolute next level with intel core processors. And even better, you can get it during Black Friday starting at 899.99plus you can save on all kinds of displays and accessories like the Alienware 32.4K QD OLED gaming monitor for ultimate visual fidelity. These really are incredible deals on PCs with otherworldly performance. So I'd visit alienware.com deals soon and grab what you can before their biggest sale of the year goes dark. That's HTTP alienware.com deals.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

I'm unlike most people, of course. You know why one of one. Do you know why? Why? There are many reasons, but here's one.

[B]

What's that?

[A]

Murray?

[B]

What?

[A]

Murray. That's what I named one of my financial accounts. And see, most people can't name all of their financial accounts, but I've named all of them. One of them's named Murray. One of them is named Tiffany. One of them is named Rebecca.

[B]

See guys, sometimes Griffith will look at the ad copy and he will just sort of UCB style kind of be like, what can I make with these words?

[A]

This is a damning accusation. Sometimes Griffin will look at the ad copy. Yeah, yeah, listen, most people can't name all of their financial accounts or what they're worth.

[B]

I like, right? If you asked me like, hey, can you just get everything like financial that you have in front of you? I would be like, absolutely not. I have no way of organizing this.

[A]

And, and some of us kind of think A to C and they look at a 401k and they say, that looks like a Murray to me.

[B]

So you can feel organized and confident in your finances with Monarch, an all in one personal finance tool that brings your entire financial life together in one clean interface on your laptop or your phone. Griffin.

[A]

Because lack of awareness can lead to money being left on the table and that's a terrible place for money to be.

[B]

Money should be in your pocket or.

[A]

Hands of good business underneath a mattress in a boot.

[B]

Right now for our listeners, Monarch is offering 50% off your first year with code check monarch.com so like if you organize everything with Monarch, right, All your sort of statements or whatever.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You might see some inefficient investment allocation.

[A]

Hate it when that happens.

[B]

You might Discover a forgotten 401k from a past job. That can happen, right? Put a little bit of money into something and then you forgot it existed. You'll realize how much they want worth. You'll understand how much cash you're sitting on not being used.

[A]

And it's, it's stressful, time consuming, juggling multiple apps. Monarch just makes it all in one.

[B]

It's built for people with busy lives. Monarch is for you. If you need anything to do all the heavy lifting for you. Link all your accounts in minutes. Get clear data, visuals, smart categorization of your spending, real control over your money, all that stuff. It's a great way to organize all your finances and maybe look at the with your partner or your financial advisor. I find it very helpful to give a clear view of your financial health.

[A]

Look, it would mean a lot to us if you signed up for Monarch, but more than anything. It would mean a lot to Murray. 401k plan.

[B]

So don't. Yeah, think of Murray.

[A]

Think of Murray.

[B]

Don't let financial opportunity slip through the cracks. Use code checkonarch.com in your browser for half off your first year. That's 50% off your first [e-mail] with Code Check.

[A]

Do it for Murray.

[B]

Hail Caesar is about Eddie Mannix. Sort of about. It's set in the early 50s in Hollywood.

[A]

It's about a character named Eddie Mannix.

[B]

Right. Who is the. Cohen said like the real Eddie Mannix was like a thug who beat people up and threatened people and look how you want that vibe, right? Exactly.

[A]

But they do a lot of this, like Papio Daniel being 90% of the name of a real guy. Sometimes they'll like base a character on a person and then be like, we're still going to name it after them even though we made it. Not actually one to one anymore.

[B]

He works at Capital Pictures, which of course is the same studio from Barton Fink. And he is a fixer. So he deals with scandals and he massages egos and he basically just kind of like handles problems for the studio.

[A]

In an era where because of studio contracts, studios viewed stars as investments. They were property, they were thing that they had to like manage and build and maintain. And this weird. It's often when this is talked about, is talked about in a very dark way of people like Eddie Mannix who like maybe murder people, you know, and do these things by like force and like covering up the CD side. But the magic of this movie is this quiet Eddie Manx arc is he is being courted by Lockheed Martin normal company that's never done anything wrong for.

[B]

A stable at the dawn of the.

[A]

Space age with better hours and the promise that you would get stock options so even if you quit in a couple years, you'd be set for like life. And do you want a more normal life? They're also telling him that they're working on something really big, which happens to be the hydrogen bomb. Kind of a scary thing. But there's sort of like, aren't you done doing frivolous, like fucking singing cowboy pictures?

[C]

It's just the most serious thing you could imagine.

[A]

Babysitting divas. Yeah, right. We do serious things like bombs. And the magic of this movie is this very quiet arc that Josh Brolin plays basically through looks and in between words. Because it is classic Josh Brolin stoicism with something kind of softer going on on inside where this guy is slowly kind of Realizing why he cares about this, that he is, at the end of the day, kind of dirty show folk do his score. Even though he is the type, a normal businessman version of that. The reason he's here is because he loves this and he loves these people for as much as they drive him crazy. He would be doing something creative if he could, but he's doing this because it's the most creative adjacent thing he can do with his weird powers of like alpha dog dog, you know, negotiation. But yeah, it's like it. He ends up what the movie set over like 24 hours.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Starts at night, ends the next night.

[A]

I guess it's 40, 48 hours, whatever. A short time frame, but a. Just a kind of whirlwind of problems that he's trying to fix while also being courted for this job. Right. So here are the questioning.

[B]

Why run down the problem? George Clooney. Clooney plays Baird Whitlock, who's this sort of like, aging movie star with a hint of lavender. A hint of lavender to him, as they used to say. Like the joke being that, like, there would be like. Robert Taylor is the example they're drafting off of, like, guys where people would be like, he's secretly gay and maybe like, slept his way to stardom. Totally scurrilous. Like, no, no actual. Right, like evidence for this. But it would become a thing in the 50s.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Because that's what. On what's on Wings of Eagles. What?

[C]

On wing. On wings of Wings and eagles on.

[B]

Like, that's what they're referencing.

[A]

One of the best sound effects jokes. Yes, yes. But I also. I think it could be really on Wings as Eagles. Yes. It's such a good title. On Wings as ambiguity in it. I also think it could be.

[B]

I'm quoting the Cohen when I say the lavender thing.

[A]

Sure, yeah. There it could be read as. This was one strategic, like, casting couch decision he made to get his foot in the door versus closeted sexuality.

[B]

Possibly hanky panky. Something is past.

[A]

Seemingly happened. Everyone reacts with the intensity of. There's a touch of truth to that.

[B]

So he gets kidnapped by a bunch of Marxist writers. Communist writers, yes. Who wish to sort of rearrange his brain in support of their principles.

[A]

They're deeply radicalized. They've been trying to smuggle communist ideology into the margins of their studio for higher work, but now they've decided they need to do something to change. Change the system.

[B]

Because they're a great bunch of guys.

[C]

And each of them is more exciting.

[B]

To see than the last Melamed, Patrick Fishler, Fisher Stevens, Alex Karpovsky. Am I forgetting there's a couple other guys.

[A]

Yeah, it's an incredible group.

[B]

Greg Baldwin, who's the. The big guy.

[A]

Who's the British. Oh, with the. The perma pout.

[B]

Right. Yeah. Who wrote all the.

[A]

Who's the British guy who does most of the time?

[B]

Yeah. Who is the British.

[A]

That guy.

[B]

The best guy is the guy who keeps saying shut up.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Oh, Max Baker.

[B]

Max Baker. Yeah. I don't know where they found that guy, but he's so mellifluous.

[A]

But they. They basically are trying to radicalize Clooney. They're using him as a hostage to get the cash they want, but also as a bargaining chip to try to change the system. Because they think if they can win him over while he's being held ransom, that he will be at the forefront of their argument, which is basically them trying to create some system of profit sharing. It is basically them arguing for, like, res.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Participation.

[B]

Right. They don't actually have, like, insanely. They're. They're pretty silly. They're fun and silly.

[A]

They do want to hand a fucking briefcase of cash over to Dolph Lundgren on a Russian submarine.

[B]

But, like, they don't understand what they're doing with that, basically.

[A]

And ultimately, study group, ultimately. This is like, what I love about it is like, for how much they're espousing serious political opinion. The actual means to an end for them is they would like it if they had nice houses too. That here they are meeting at Channing Tatum's house, which is like the most beautiful Hollywood home you've ever seen. And all these guys are like, I get paid $200 a week to write scripts, and if one's a hit, I don't get any upside from it. You know, they're. It is the thing that allowed the destruction of the studio system is it gave actors the ability to build a career without career stability of a guaranteed contract. Because if you hit, you'd hit big and it could cover the times where you were weren't working.

[B]

The next most important character I feel like is Alton Ehrenreich is Hobie Doyle, who is in four movies at once. Essentially. He's like going for movie. He's like shooting a Western.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

A comic. A cowboy musical. Or the cowboy musical's raps.

[A]

He's going to the premiere.

[C]

That's done.

[B]

Okay. So he's shooting. Right. The Western and then merrily. Society comedy, I think, at the same time.

[A]

And then Pivot point is, here's a guy who's a beastar. He makes programmers in a sort of like, he's a geno shineless genre. Right? Yes. And they're going like, does this kid have the X factor? Could we, like, develop him into something more? He gets slotted into an A movie and all the pressure is on is like, this is the test.

[B]

Which he's not doing very well at. And of course, he's being directed by Lawrence. Lawrence, yes. Played by Ralph Fiennes, who turns out.

[A]

To be the person that Baird Whitlock allegedly had. I like just how tightly there are.

[B]

A lot of hints and references. Exactly. You're right. To how things crossed over in the past. Or are. Yes.

[A]

And it's almost structured like a mystery novel.

[B]

Right.

[A]

You know, there is like, it's a who, done who.

[C]

It's a who.

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[B]

Oh, well, well, well, well.

[A]

There's a touchy Hammett, you know, all these, like, kind of gumshoe books that they love and like hard, bold noir and whatever where, like the answers kind of happen in the margins. You don't have a scene where Humphrey Bogart like, explains everything he figured out about the Maltese Falcon.

[C]

The footnotes are available to you if you want to look for them.

[A]

Yes, yes. But it happens. And part of it's the fast talking, constantly moving Hollywood thing that, like, stuff's just getting thrown out as like collateral.

[B]

Right. I don't know exactly who Lawrence Lorenz, because, like, people bring up like Vincente Minelli or like Cukor or whatever. Like, those guys were American, but it's like, yeah, those sort of like Lubitsch sort of makes sense.

[A]

It's one of these touch a class.

[B]

You know, guy from Europe who's more urbane and literates.

[A]

Any of these directors are one to one with anyone.

[C]

It says things like mirthless chuckle, mirthless chuckle.

[B]

We can use Christian names, boys.

[A]

This is a movie where you could have given it all 5 Best Supporting Actor nominations.

[B]

I think we talked about that that year at the blankies. 100%, yes. So you got Scarlett Johansson as Deanna.

[A]

Moran, who's a elegant Esther Williams bathing beauty, who actually is like, hey, you, Brooklyn tuck talk.

[C]

That's her favorite accent.

[B]

She's pretty good at it. And she has been been knocked up by somebody. She thinks she knows.

[A]

The guy, we believe it is the. The director played by Christopher Lambert.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Which I feel like this model of like these like, kind of severe, brutish, alpha European men who would become like dictator directors of the Studio system. The movie's so good at capturing the different types of, like, who were career directors at this point in time. And like, you have your kind of like, corsage, like the.

[C]

The champagne. I can't say this word.

[B]

Aesthetic.

[C]

Aesthetic, no, but. Aesthete.

[B]

Yes, aesthete.

[A]

But also a guy who's like, my name means something. I have a reputation to present versus, like, these guys who are like, I show up, I yell at five people and I get it done.

[C]

And I show you a picture of me skiing because I am macho, right?

[B]

Yes. Then those are the three main storylines. And you have smaller characters, like Frances McDormand as an editor who's sort of like a Margaret Booth, like lots of famous lady editors. Jonah Hill, Tilda Swinton as twin. Identical twin gossip columnist. And sort of like the Hedda Hopper. What Luella Parsons like. Yes.

[C]

Name is Thessaly.

[A]

The. The deep bucket of just simple pleasures in this movie. Every time either of her characters says Eddie, she's really. I. I'm just. I transcend to a higher plane of existence.

[B]

Channing Tatum, who really just has the one big scene. Allison Pill, who is Eddie's wife. Wayne Knight, of course, is the wonderful operative.

[A]

And never totally trust an extra.

[C]

You see him and you think sus.

[B]

And then.

[A]

And I love that he says, now, mind you, some of them are good. Jonah don't want to paint with a broad brush.

[B]

Who maybe we want to talk about now as a sort of professional person.

[A]

Is the thing they're saying.

[B]

Yes, technically, a sort of. He's like a bondsman or whatever.

[C]

I still feel like an amateur person. What about you guys?

[B]

Same.

[A]

But it's also, more than ever, honestly, it's also. It's part of the weird machinery of this of, like, the relationship that the studios have with the gossip columnists. Right. Where like, sometimes they are basically working them to carry water for them to help sell a fictional narrative, and sometimes they are working overtime to try to squash a potential narrative that they would actually want to crack journalistically. And so all of this machinery of maintaining the images and the reputations of these stars. And yes, Jonah Hill is this guy who's like a bail bondsman, but also his real utility is they will pay him money to basically slide the crimes or misdiscretions, indiscretions, misdeeds of any major star onto him, and he will take the rap or pay the fee or do the time or whatever. It is the fall guy and is paid handsomely to be the fall guy so that none of these stories ever stick to these people? Joe. Jonah Hill is on screen for 90 seconds. He has one scene. They use every line of dialogue he has in the trailer. They put him all over the fucking.

[B]

Trailer because he was hot stuff at the time, you know. 21 Jump street era, Jenna Hill.

[A]

I have often contested that this is the smallest role to receive a designated character poster as David turned his laptop around maybe one hour ago.

[B]

It's low there. It's down low.

[A]

It's the funniest character poster. Just big joke. Jonah Hill head with owl glasses.

[C]

Well, it also says Hill.

[A]

It says Hill.

[C]

It's humongous.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And then Hail Caesar is smaller. So you are like this guy is the star.

[A]

If that was the only poster you had seen for this movie.

[B]

The joke, of course, is that he's. The scheme they work out is that Deanna will have the baby, give him the baby, and then she will adopt the baby almost immediately and act like she's doing it out of the goodness of her heart, not because she's the mother of the baby.

[A]

Right. Because the father of the child is the director of no Dance who has a wife and children back in his home country.

[B]

Not acceptable.

[A]

They can't break that up.

[B]

But anyway, she ends up falling in love with Jonah Hill and they get married, which is very sweet.

[A]

And it's something that basically. Right. Happens.

[C]

They went on like one date and then went immediately to Palm Springs and then got married the next day.

[A]

She just immediately locks in on this guy in a scene that's so funny, where he's giving like anti charisma very well.

[C]

But he's reassuring.

[A]

Yes. Then he's a he. Dare I say he's a serious man. I think she respects that this guy's got like a focus.

[B]

I think this film is such a fascinating counterpart to Barton Fink, which is like, about a person who is outside of this bubble, thinks he's better than it.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And will not, like, lower himself to the trash, you know, it represents or whatever. And never like gets anywhere essentially and is trapped in hell. And this is like inside the bubble. All that he's doing is dealing with problems.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's like this like big, complex clockwork machinery. And he's just sort of walking around, like fixing that are like dark, banging on stuff. Yes. Often kind of nasty and he has to just sort of be like pragmatic about everything.

[C]

But I think it's important to point out that it's not always so in the bubble that it's like navel gazy and insular.

[B]

Like little. Like he has to just like.

[A]

Yeah, he's like a preschool teacher.

[C]

You have. I mean, you have one. You have the Jonah Hill character, but I think he exists in a different. Like that. There's a Venn diagram here. But the two. The twin journalists, like, one. One of the problems one of them has is that she considers herself an actual entertainment reporter, trade reporter versus a gossip columnist. Right. And that feels like a little bit of, like. It's both very inside baseball, but it's also the real world bleeding in with the judgment of the work that they do.

[A]

Right. And people keep getting them confused.

[C]

Yeah. And I think. Yeah, exactly.

[A]

Saying the wrong thing to the wrong person or repeating it twice with an attitude. Yeah.

[C]

And I think without that piece, you get a film that's way too insular.

[A]

I agree.

[C]

But because of that, of this. Because of this, it's delightful.

[A]

I also think this movie has such a love of film history and a sort of recognition of, like, not like things used to be better. It's. Weirdly, this movie is simultaneously more cynical and more romantic than Barton Fink, which is the fascinating juxtaposition.

[B]

It is largely cynical, but then at the end of the day, it is about the system working.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And then the one guy, the one real problem that Eddie actually has to solve. Most of the problems sort of themselves out.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Is Baird returning and being like, I'm a communist now, like, I, I, we must. And him just being like, no golden age of Hollywood works. You know, like, you are not allowed to defy this system, but also, in.

[A]

20 years, it will be dead 100%. But can't fight the future. And the future is on the phone.

[B]

Eddie is just like, you will do what you do. You're, you know, you're a member of this machine, just like me. Right. And Bear's like, okay. And he does it, you know, And George gives the big speech at the end.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And it's like, great. That's exactly. That's how this works.

[A]

And you're watching Clooney magic of like. Oh, right. George Clooney is George Clooney. We've had so much fun watching him play like a idiot, trying to figure it out. Clooney's so. Well, playing the. The awkwardness of trying to be in casual positions wearing that costume. He does so much good business with readjusting. You know, these, like, chest plates that shouldn't be in, like, a lounge chair.

[B]

Yeah. I think all of those physical bits are funny with a sword and all that.

[A]

But then we get to this final moment where you see him deliver the big monologue, including like a fucking movie star holds the camera and turns it on and nails it. And you're like, right, Baird Whitlock might be a moron to a degree, but also there's a reason he's their top star. And here's the magic. And then he loses it and the take is blown and everyone's like, yeah, that's what the movies are. We'll just try it again. Yeah. And you feel like you're witnessing a miracle and then the miracle falls apart.

[C]

But he understands the words be a star. Yes. Right. Like, anyway, you think, David, go.

[B]

The Cohen's are steeped enough in movie history to know that there is something so hilarious about. You watch some old movie, that's great. Some, you know, classic movie, and you're like, oh, God, this is great. And then you read the behind the scenes thing and it's basically the most sorted. Everyone was on fucking speed or gay or a communist or insane.

[A]

They want gay communists.

[C]

Everybody sleeping with each other.

[B]

The whole thing was created through like blackmail and coercion and madness.

[A]

20 people got murdered in the making of this film.

[B]

And you're like, wait. Just to create this sort of like delightful confection that I watched today, you know, on tcm and like, to help.

[C]

You escape, they had to go through hell.

[B]

It's like the movie Babylon, which is loud and obnoxious and a movie I like a lot in many ways, but it's like sort of the loudest version of like. Don't you realize how insane Hollywood was? This is a much more whimsical.

[A]

I love Babylon, but I think this movie gets at a lot of the same ideas a lot without having an.

[C]

Elephant defecate on camera.

[B]

Yeah. And indeed I believe half the time. I can't remember how long Babylon was, but it's long.

[A]

A couple of days at least. No. Yes, you're right. And it's like the movie is making.

[B]

Three hours and nine minutes.

[A]

Good.

[C]

Ooh, those nine minutes were necessary.

[B]

The people at Paramus eating razor blades. The test script.

[A]

Remember that two of those minutes were Avatar.

[B]

That's so true.

[A]

So who's laughing now?

[B]

T2 was in there too.

[A]

Yeah. I think that this is a really good, like, everything has always been great. Everything's always been terrible movie. Yeah. These two things, like exist in tandem, but also the sort of like Sullivan's Travels thing, which it makes sort of unspoken, but is like Eddie Max is like, I'm like losing sleep and Barely seeing my kids, and I'm so stressed out, and I'm eating this microwave plate of loose meat, you know, as I like, try to unw before I go back to the office for another night shift of dealing with nonsense.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Why am I doing this? And it isn't serious work. Like, in the name of what. And the opposite is Lockheed Martin will give you, like, shiny tchotchkes and a nice office, and everyone there will behave like a proper adult gentleman. And you'll bomb people.

[B]

But, right. The gag is that Lockheed Martin. All right, look, she's like, we like what you do. We think it would be perfect for creating death that rains hellfire across the earth.

[A]

And is Eddie not at the lazy old moon premiere. But I feel like in that scene, you get the Soldier Travels moment. Eddie, images, please.

[C]

Not the real Eddie Mannix.

[A]

Yeah, in. That's the real. You get the feeling.

[C]

Stop threatening me.

[B]

Never.

[A]

How much people are laughing at this old coot falling into, like, a fucking water trough. Right? And you're like, this is why you do it. Yeah. Like, this might be the silliest movie ever.

[C]

Well, I mean, I want to go back to what you were saying about when he's with Francis and they're editing that reel and he has that look on his face. That look doesn't say, like, I have so much power. I could make this happen. That look instead, is like awe and tenderness toward this strip of.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Five seconds of a scene.

[A]

But you're right, he's not patting himself on the back for, like, I always knew it. And he's also not doing this kind of maudlin tears in his eyes. Like, I. I love Moneyball. But there's the Moneyball moment where Jonah Hill shows Brad Pitt normal male marriage. The. The clip of the guy who doesn't know that he's hit a home run and hit. Has his incredible moment. Right? And it's like there's a version of this that is entirely unspoken because Eddie Mannix is a guy who would never let himself say anything like that.

[C]

But I also think it's the. It's. It's. It's very Cohen's. For it to go like. Like, they never push it that far in this. Like, it's. Like it's. Or ever.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, here's the thing, right? Like, we're talking about the juxtapositions and everything working in tandem. And I think it's because. Because there's. They clearly now we're many years removed from this, and they have their own projects. They have their own visions. And I think because their visions have competed. I don't know. Without us really knowing it in these films. That's why there's this push and pull and a balance to what we're seeing.

[A]

I think so too.

[B]

Now, can I talk about my favorite scene in the movie?

[A]

Please?

[B]

I used to do a feature at the Atlantic where I summed up my 10 favorite scene scenes of the year.

[A]

Bring it back. It's a good feature.

[B]

It's a lot of work.

[A]

Good feature.

[C]

It's Anne Commascene.

[A]

What else do you have to do with your time?

[B]

Time? I. No, the problem is that it would always come at the end of the year, which is like an incredibly busy time for my editors where they're doing all these other top 10 and. Yeah, anyway, never. I would love to bring it back, but my favorite scene in. In Hail Caesar is the scene where he talks to the religious leaders.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

About the divine presence that they have yet to shoot in the movie.

[A]

And the incredible Robert Picardo.

[B]

Picardo. So good.

[A]

Just fucking raining, son.

[B]

What does he have a dog?

[A]

As a rabbi who's willing to. To play. I haven't an opinion.

[B]

The correct assumption, of course, that they would get Protestant clergyman played by the great Alan Harvey. An actor. I love a stand up, you know. Very funny guy.

[A]

Yeah. Great on Mad Men.

[B]

Incredible on Mad Men is that guy that hated On Draper so goddamn much.

[A]

The grumpy boss who secretly all he wants to do is draw a comic.

[B]

Book about like the dog that's just like.

[A]

That's the shit that makes Mad Men the best TV show of all time. Is you're like, this guy is killing it as like grumpy boss who doesn't like. And you're like, oh, I. I would have no notes about this and I would happily take this all day. And then the shameful secret of this guy is he spends all his extra time trying a little three panel strip about a silly duck. That isn't good.

[B]

Wait, what, what is the name? It's so. I'm trying to remember the. The name of the comic book that he draws. But anyway, sorry, I'll find it later. And right. That they wouldn't, you know, they're not getting a nim in here or like a. You know, they're just. It's like a Catholic priest, Greek Orthodox priest and a rabbi who's closest.

[A]

It's like checkbox one of each in the surrounding 10 mile area.

[B]

And it's this perfect parody. I feel like of. I don't even know if the Cohen's were going for this, yeah. But of moviemaking especially right at that time, like, right. Pretty pre trump, I would argue.

[A]

Kind of presages it. Like you think about it.

[B]

Exactly. We need to calibrate our message so it appeals to everyone without offending anyone. But it's still going to be about a sensitive topic. Can you help us, please?

[A]

This movie comes out six months before Ghostbusters answered the call. Like, I just think that's interesting that what you're saying is like, this is. They were like meeting the moment of something circular coming around again. That tends to happen in 20 year rotations of the entertainment industry being like, we have to be important in everything we do. And it's always this kind of hollow diagrammed. Yes.

[C]

And yet in the work in progress frame, it says divine presence to be shot.

[A]

So good.

[C]

I mean, and because the scene itself feels like the setup to a joke.

[A]

Right, right.

[C]

Like a rabbi and a Protestant padre.

[A]

Of some sort and a walk into a bar. What I like about it is he's framing it as like, my esteem men.

[B]

Right. Hey, I just want to check with you.

[A]

I want your blessing and your insight.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

But they're squabbling so much that he eventually gets down to the brass tacks of just like, I just need to know that we're not accidentally doing anything offensive. He's acting like he's bringing them in as like esteemed consultants. And really he's just like, are you guys going to complain about any of this shit when the movie comes out?

[C]

But it's also why this movie holds up where it's just kind of like he brought them in and now it's like, well, that's enough.

[A]

Yes, we've.

[C]

We did that.

[A]

Right.

[C]

They came in.

[A]

Right, right. We. We can say in the marketing, which is part of the machinery. Jeffrey Cantor, I just want to call out, plays Sid Siegelstein, who is the lawyer at Capitol Pictures. Right. Who sort of facilitates the deal with Jonah Hill and Scarlett Johansson, an actor I worked with on Patrick Willems short film, which will maybe be out by the time of this release. The. The dinner plan. He is so fucking good in this.

[B]

He's like, it's never been done before about the adoption or. But like, you know, yes, that guy.

[A]

They'Re pitching him like, what's a way we can get Johansson's baby? And he and Mannix start to like piece together, like, is there a way to have her adopt it? We'd have to get a foster parent this and that. And he's reacting with the energy of like an artist being hit with inspiration. He's like, huh, that's good. I like that. And he's not. It's not like a dark energy. It's like all of these people are artists, right? Like Mannix loves figuring out how to talk to different people, right? There's what he needs.

[B]

Sort of a joy in it or.

[A]

A skill or whatever. And this weird lawyer who you just imagine has been covering up some of the darkest, most criminal shit, loves being like, oh, what if we did this?

[C]

It's a puzzle to solve. Yeah, right.

[A]

And he underplays it, but it's so fucking good.

[B]

And this is all in service of making silly movies for us.

[A]

And. And that's like. The silly movies aren't ruined. They're not tarnished by the real world, right?

[C]

Lazy Old Moon is the most serious movie I've ever seen.

[B]

Oh, that's so true.

[C]

So.

[B]

And actually I've heard that they're remaking it for modern day, but it's woke.

[C]

It's. Well, you can't wake up the moon.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, right.

[B]

Don't disturb the moon. I don't know what the.

[A]

This time it's going to be Lazy Old Venus.

[C]

Oh, yike.

[A]

Shocks full of women.

[C]

You know, that, that, that's not a. It's a mostly gaseous planet.

[A]

Excuse me, surely. I hate to big dog you on this, but I actually, I read a scientific textbook.

[C]

Oh, man.

[A]

And I never explained to me that.

[C]

There are no women in space.

[A]

Men are from Mars and women are from Venus. And that's a fact. And when I say read the book, I mean I read the COVID That's exciting.

[C]

I only looked at the pictures.

[A]

The no damn sequence is so triumphant as a performance from Tatum, who we've talked about a lot already in this episode. But the moment that I truly just lose my mind with joy is when they cut out to the wider shot after this beautiful kind of elegant, sweeping, long crane movement. And you see that the floor of the set is separated into blocks that roll away, that they had to move away in order for the crane to move in closer. And now seamlessly, as choreography, not from the performers, but from the crew, they have to roll right back into position as the crane is pulling back. So when it goes back to its original angle, the floor is in shape. And I'm like, that's fucking magic of the movies. And that's the shit. When you watch a movie from the 1940s where you're like, they had to figure this out.

[B]

It is amazing. What they figured out for some of this stuff, and they're right. They had this heavy ass cameras that can only do so many things. They didn't have steady cams back then.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Yeah. You know, they're athletes and scientists.

[A]

And you watch this take, that feels like perfect. That feels like a miracle where everyone's just nailing everything and the crane comes down and Christopher Lambert with his fucking dumb director bullhorn goes like. Don't put the bar rag on the guy's head. You're too big of a star. You're bigger than that. Right. Like gives him a direction that is not like you. Anything up. It's sort of in the name of his star Persona. I think a. Correct. He says it in a way that offends the bartender actor. Right. But I think what he's really saying is that's you kind of punching down.

[B]

Do you think the Coen brothers talked to Christopher Lambert about how he played Raiden in Mortal Kombat?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

I hope so.

[C]

It's the only thing they talked about.

[B]

Or do you think when he was in character she's like, this reminds me of Mortal Kombat.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Sorry.

[A]

Heather Goldenhurst.

[B]

Oh, I love her. You know what? You know what show?

[C]

She's a mousey assistant.

[A]

What?

[B]

Can you guess?

[A]

Madman.

[B]

No. Although was she.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because she does have the look. You're right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Let's find out if she was on Bad Men.

[A]

She's such a good fast talker.

[B]

She never was. She was on the show the Class, which is a show I think about all the time.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

It ran for one season.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was a big CBS show.

[A]

I watched and I forgot that she was on there.

[B]

Right. From the creator of Friends. And the gimmick was that it was eight 28 year olds who had been been in the same third grade class 20 years ago and they somehow reunion.

[A]

And then they become reunionize. But then they become a regular friend group. Jason Kaplan, Jay Jesse Tyler, Tyler Ferguson, John Bern.

[B]

This is why I wanted to bring it up. It had an insanely stacked cast of guys who are about to happen.

[A]

Andrea Anders, Lucy Punch.

[B]

Right. A couple of the guys. Andrea Anders had already done Joey and was kind of like, you know, in the sitcom mix. Jason Ritter had, you know, he was in the sitcom mix a little bit. But like Lizzy Kaplan, Jesse Tyler Ferguson and then insanely John Bernthal, who never did anything like this again, were all in it. But it was such a weird show because they mostly wouldn't interact.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like it was mostly like four separate Tracks of stories like. And they would only occasionally cross over. It was so weird.

[A]

But it was also David Crane creator Friends.

[B]

It was the creator Friendship Philadelphia. And it had 0 non white people in the cast. And people were like, are you guys crazy? But also, you can't do this anymore. Anymore.

[A]

Right? But it had been a winning formula up until that moment.

[B]

Until it was right around then when people were starting to ask questions, starting.

[A]

To push back on it. But the famous story they tell is that they.

[B]

Anyway, she was really good in it.

[A]

You know, Right before the first episode aired, Crane and Burrows took the whole cast to Las Vegas. Have you guys heard the story before? All expensive.

[C]

I'm just reading about this now.

[A]

And they were like, guys, we don't want to stress you out, but you just need to. Unless understand this is the last time you're ever gonna be able to go out in public again as normal people and especially as a group. We saw what happened to the Friends cast and I want you guys to have a great.

[B]

Savor this.

[A]

Savor this.

[B]

And Bernthal was like, for me, this is actually sort of true. Yes. And everyone else is like, huh?

[A]

And then the show, like just collapsed immediately. But the. The confidence of this is it. We are holding a hot hand. This is new Friends.

[B]

Anyway, she's great in this as the right.

[A]

The assistant to man who's constantly filling him in.

[C]

The thing is, I feel like probably happens a whole bunch, right?

[B]

We never hear it's like the, you know, NBA champion, you know, shirts they printed for the other guys who then get shipped to, you know, whatever.

[A]

It's just a particularly infamous one. And because most of that cast has then ended up finding success somewhere else, they all retell that story whenever they do press about. Like, you're right about careers.

[B]

Like, if James Burroughs was directing a show back then, it was kind of like, okay, this must be the next big comedy.

[A]

Like that guy always directs a 25 year run where he had not directed a single pilot that didn't go to series and last more than one one season. It was insane.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Like, was just a king maker. Yeah.

[B]

But anyway, love her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In this. And liked her find in the class. From what I remember. Don't really remember.

[A]

This is a movie where everyone is great and wait, is anyone bad though? No. No, no, no, no. And there are people in it where you're like, you're going to hire Dolph Lunger into like stand at the top of a submarine for like a day and basically be art direction.

[B]

It kind of nails it that's the thing.

[A]

It doesn't feel like an abuse of power on the Cohen.

[B]

Clancy Brown showing up for two seconds as CL Love to see him.

[A]

Every one of these people who shows up, you're like, well, but it. Could anyone do what they're doing better than them?

[C]

I mean Dolph stands so well on that submarine. Well, he's so imposing. I'm like, that guy's a commie.

[A]

But it's like, it's, it's presence. It's like history. It's reputational casting. As we said. Like the fucking like the future is loaded with.

[B]

Right. All the.

[A]

Just incredible that guys where you're like Melamed. You're giving him two lines of dialogue.

[B]

Melamed. I feel like the other thing is like a lot of them are guys who haven't been in Cohen movies. But you're like, how have they never been in a Cohen?

[A]

Right. This is the first Krumholtz and then he does Buster Scruggs after.

[B]

And then it's the. I don't think Fishler had done one. And that's another guy who feels.

[A]

Feels like, right.

[B]

Like that he had popped up in.

[A]

A con before Karpowski had done Lynn Davis.

[C]

I was just about to say Karpovsky. But does he have a line in this?

[B]

He just takes the pictures, right?

[C]

He just takes.

[B]

He just moves around.

[C]

He just smirks.

[A]

But I'm like, he's giving so much.

[B]

Had Ricardo.

[C]

It's giving so, so much.

[B]

I don't know. That's kind of helped.

[A]

Yeah. You do have to just think about like True Grit was their biggest hit. That comes only a couple years after they sweep the Oscars. And then Inside Llew and Davis is basically immediately greeted as a masterpiece. Even though it doesn't become a big Oscar movie. It's like this is maybe their best thing. They were just running so hot where like anyone would show up for one one day for them.

[C]

And we haven't even shouted out the narrator, Michael Gambon.

[B]

We love to hear him.

[A]

Yeah. But this movie has a 22 million dollar budget. Like think about how much value there is. This is a movie with like big sets and big costumes and like an all star cast and everything. People just wanted to play.

[B]

Do you think about how Inside Lun Davis wasn't nominated for any Oscars?

[A]

I think about it constantly.

[B]

That is crazy. Or did maybe get like a cinematography.

[A]

It must have gotten song instead of cinematography.

[B]

I think sound and cinematography and no song.

[C]

No song.

[B]

No, because remember they, they submitted the like, oh you know the. Please, Mr. Kennedy.

[A]

And they didn't rather.

[B]

That was too silly.

[A]

Right, okay. Yeah. No, that's some of the dumbest of all time. That movie is. I'm excited to rewatch it. We will have done it at this point.

[B]

It's too hot in New York right now to watch that movie.

[A]

Thank God we. We can like.

[B]

That movie is so cold like that. I sort of be like, no, no. It's never felt like this in New York. This is science fiction.

[A]

It's one of the great coat movies.

[B]

It is one of the great.

[C]

I can't believe I come here and it's so hot.

[B]

It's so hot.

[C]

You guys won't come to la?

[A]

I, I come gladly and with pleasure. I fly to la.

[C]

With pleasure.

[A]

We were just having text conversation about a thing that David won't go to LA for. No, it was a hard, dramatic. We assume you're not doing, but I support it. Yeah.

[B]

I'll film a video message train.

[C]

You'll just. You could just drive the whole way.

[B]

Great idea. I would love to do that. I would love. It's not. I don't like flying.

[A]

I know.

[C]

That's why I'm saying.

[B]

And it's of course flying getting a bit of a bad rap right now. I will say couple of red flags in the old news for airplanes, but no, I have. It's the children, not the flying guys. Children, Children.

[A]

You say this, but the arguments were not very different. Pre children.

[B]

I took planes. Pre children. I did. I did. I took planes. You did?

[A]

Yes, I did. Cross country train trip to California. It was wonderful.

[B]

You enjoyed it, didn't you?

[A]

I had a grand old.

[B]

Were there any hiccups? And I'm not talking about the star of hit live action remake how to Train.

[A]

I didn't realize there wasn't going to be WI fi on the train because you go to areas of the country where there is nothing thing and they were like, you will not have cell phone signal, let alone WI fi on the train. And so I should have downloaded a bunch of stuff to my iPad before.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I got on. That was the mistake I made.

[C]

What did you do instead?

[A]

Did some reading, did some thinking, staring out the window. A lot of time in the. Whatever they call it the. Not the viewer car or whatever, but they had the one car that's like all big windows. And you drive through. Drive through. The train runs through these areas where you're like, there is no other sign of human life untouched beauty anywhere. You're like. You only get to see this land, if you're on this train.

[C]

Is that the panoramic car or something or.

[A]

I think that's right.

[C]

You know, if we had the Internet, we could look it up.

[A]

We could and we don't. We are recording this episode on a cross country train.

[C]

A bunker. Because it is hot outside.

[B]

It is a bit of a bunker that we're in right now. Hail Caesar.

[A]

What are things we should call out?

[B]

Well, I'm sorry, actually, the. That's time for a union break. I'm gonna call it.

[A]

So.

[B]

Lunch.

[A]

Yeah. Box lunch or hot lunch?

[B]

Hot lunch.

[A]

David? Yes. This episode of Blank Check is brought to you by Warby Parker. Our friends at Warby Parker. And boy, do I have a lot of things to say about them.

[B]

You're a committed Warby Parkerer. Ding dong, who's at the door?

[A]

Creek. I guess I'll have to hold my thoughts for a second. Hold on.

[B]

Who is that?

[A]

Someone's rolling in their own microphone and their own desk. Hello. Hello. This is Eyewear Glasses. Welcome to this American site. This is a podcast about wearables that can improve your eyesight. Glasses, contact lenses.

[B]

Griffin, you talk to this guy.

[A]

You want me to talk to Ira Glasses? All right.

[B]

What's up, Ira Glasses?

[A]

I'm here with a really fascinating story. It's about a company called Warby Parker. They use nothing but premium materials in every frame. Warby Parker designs every frame in house. And our collection includes silhouettes, colors, and fits made to suit every face.

[B]

Do you have anything for this character beyond this voice you're doing?

[A]

Excuse me. Just gonna say I'm here in good faith speaking to you about an astonishing story, a story of human perseverance.

[B]

Everyone knows what Warby Parker is, right? Because it's basically. They've got retail locations across the US And Canada, so you can go in and get stopped by an expert advisor. They've got glasses that are affordable. Griffin. And you, not Ira Glasses. Who I don't know. You are very like. You're always using them, right?

[A]

I use their glasses a lot, but I really want to hear what Ira Glasses has to say. They.

[B]

A lot of Wary park locations offer comprehensive eye exams starting $85. That's really cheap.

[A]

Yeah. David, I was about to say that I don't appreciate you refusing to acknowledge me.

[B]

I just don't think the character should just roll in and then verbatim read adcom.

[A]

That's all I'm gonna say.

[B]

That's all I'm gonna say.

[A]

This is a story I am breaking. Okay. It's A story of the human spirit.

[B]

I just feel like usually the characters got like a big thing we have to sort of sort out and then we really.

[A]

What's your big thing? What's your big thing?

[B]

I want to be done with the ad.

[A]

Well, we have different approaches to podcasting. My name is Ira Glasses and this is this American site. Many Warby Parker locations offer comprehensive eye exams starting at 85. I already said that. Well, did you say this? Add a pair and save 15% off when you purchase two or more prescription pairs of glasses or sunglasses.

[B]

I do appreciate you saying that. I do think that's a pretty good.

[A]

So maybe I have something to catch.

[B]

You that's available both online and in store. And if you're to buy something online, they got free shipping, they got free 30 day returns and they got that thing where you take a picture of your face and you can kind of put the glasses on your face.

[A]

Hey, I don't come to your door and knock the microphone out of your mouth.

[B]

Well, you literally did just do that.

[A]

But did I knock the microphone out of your mouth?

[B]

Well, I mean, I suppose you.

[A]

I came to your door, but let the record show. Did I knock the microphone out of your mouth?

[B]

No, you're.

[A]

No. Okay, so I'll, I'll accept that. I came to your door.

[B]

Hey, Griff, just real quick.

[A]

Yeah, hey, this is Griffin. Very different voice.

[B]

I. I just wanted to ask.

[A]

Ask.

[B]

Have you picked out any glasses of Warby Parker? Of course.

[A]

All my glasses are from Warby Parker. Right now. These are my manes I'm wearing. They are the toddy. They are the toddy and tortoise shell. I love them. I often buy two pairs at once so I can get the same style in two different colors and make one sunglasses, one clear lenses. And I can swap them out if I'm feeling a little saucy. But who cares what I have to say. Hourglass is. What do you have to say? I use this product and you should too.

[B]

Okay. Warby Parker has over 300 locations help you find your next pair of glasses. You can also head over to warbyparker.com check right now to try on any pair visually. That's warbyparker.com check. Warbyparker.com check. Ira, get the hell out of my studio.

[A]

I wear the bodie. That is the pair I wear just so you have a visual picture of me in your head. I wear the boat Ira glasses. This American site, the kind of shit as like students of filmmaking that, you know, they just love Digging into the details of, like, the. The lunch strata were used. David crunching ice directly on Mike. Almost leaning in to make sure we capture it and full quality again. But yes, that bit of, like, you never seen the Jesus actor who. They're just like, we found a guy who has the right look from behind and doesn't have to deliver dialogue feet wise. But the movie also never shows us the guy head on. And you just hear this meek voice of a guy who just kind of works as Jesus from most angles. And that just cut in.

[C]

Well, I mean, for. For a film that's about faith and art and faith in oneself's work and passion and purpose, like, for Jesus to not be a principal is very funny.

[A]

That's the other thing I think this movie captures really well is like, the thing that kind of goes away with the death of the studio system is this sort of feeling of like, this is just a job. People clock in and clock out. Right. Because you have, like, a contract and you know when one production ends, you're going to be put on the next one. Right. This backlot is your office.

[C]

Office.

[A]

Right. You're not like, negotiating to be like, oh, God, I hope I can get this grip job in Bulgaria. I haven't booked anything in 18 months. And this sort of like, kind of wrote, like, banal routines of these things.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And this guy just going up to the guy who's literally, like, mounted on a cross and being like, are you principal or extra? And the guy's just like, I actually don't even know. And it's just a matter of which lunch do I give you?

[C]

Right. Exactly. I don't know. It's. It's worth. It's like, it's. Yeah.

[B]

But it's always loving or at least affectionate.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And there's a world where that's almost kind of glib, where you're like, come on, guys, like, what are we glossing over? Like. But it never feels like they're glossing anything over. They're giving you the kind of nasty side. Yeah, absolutely. Without it being hectoring or, you know.

[C]

Yeah. It's nasty and nostalgic at the same time.

[B]

Just like me.

[A]

Can I circle back to a couple. Yeah, big time. Can I circle back to a couple more Hobie things?

[B]

Hobie, yes.

[A]

1. I love that Mannix trusts him and tells him what's going on.

[B]

Hope. Yes. That, like, it's like he's. There's someone who's like, he's been. And Hobie goes like this.

[A]

Bad.

[B]

Real bad. Or Whatever.

[A]

Bad for movie stars everywhere.

[B]

Hope he's kind of a Tom Cruise. Like, he believes in protecting movies, you know what I mean?

[A]

And his speech about, like, you should look at the X extries, which is like, is this a sort of, like, classist, I'm a star. Look at the lowest guys in the rung. But then he explains that he's just like, you know, I, I, I knew. I know the gaffers, you know, like.

[C]

I know the script girls, right?

[A]

You're like, he is someone who, like, has such respect and love for everyone who works on these movies and understands that it's like we're all part of the same thing. I don't have ego, but just simply. The extras aren't here every day, so you just don't know. And some of them I like quite a bit, you know? But some of them you don't know. But, yeah, Hobie, like, clocks the briefcase thing. And you see this moment where Brolin does the math, and it's like, is he just so tired that, like, this was what he had lauded to be his three minutes of closing his eyes and decompressing. And Hobie comes in and he's just like, fuck it, I'm gonna tell you. Or does he correctly read that, like, Hobie's smarter than people think? He's, like, considerate, he's thoughtful, he's observant. He might actually have good intel, which is rewarded in the fact that Hobie's the one who puts it together and rescues Barrett.

[C]

Well, Eddie reads Hobie so well also because Hobie is like, whatever you need, I can get you. Yeah, like, and, but it's not like. But he's not saying it in this, like, cloying way or like, he. Hobie never comes off as someone who wants to climb the ladder.

[A]

No, they talk. They talk about that.

[C]

He genuinely wants to help.

[A]

The other thing I want to bring up. Veronica Osorio, UCB alum, is so phenomenal in this, playing like, a Carmen Miranda type who the studio was trying to. Now that they're trying to make Hobie an A list star, they're trying to set him up with one of their other stars to get more press to present him as a bit of a lothario. And it is such a sweet little romance in this movie that they go on this arranged date, and you can tell they actually connect.

[B]

She's so cute.

[A]

They're catching a manufactured thing that is becoming real. And them having the two fucking Swinton stop by the table, and they have the lines they've been coached to say. And yet they're just sort of like, there's an actual energy here that isn't fake friendly. It's so good. She is so good.

[C]

It's endearing. She's great.

[A]

Chemistry is so good. I love the brass tacks of them explaining their routines. How do you balance the fruit on the head? How do you do the lasso shit? You know, like just like this is the grunt work that goes into then making something look really effortless.

[C]

And lassoing her finger is such an innocent, innocent move that then they have to like that. That when they are confronted by the two tildes, it's like suddenly they have to be on, but then they're already on.

[A]

Italian origami, I think he calls it. I Italian origami.

[C]

Italian origami spaghetti. They're so good. I believe them more than I believe Shawn Mendes and Camila Cabello.

[A]

I believe them more than other manufacturers.

[B]

Many people who should.

[A]

This is a great question I've been too afraid to ask.

[C]

I don't, you know. And he never got a chair, so I also don't know. Canadian.

[B]

Is Camila Cabello the one who is Cinderella?

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

In the. In Amazon. Cinderella, that is.

[C]

She comes in a little package.

[B]

That was a tough. That was a tough watch.

[A]

I feel like that was a tough one. That might be your least favorite movie of all time. I feel like you sometimes identify it and part of it was also like Deep lockdown.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It wasn't Amazon streaming bullshit. But that is like maybe the closest I've ever seen to like, is David going to be okay?

[B]

I like Kate can like I liked Walkers. And it was one of those things where I'm like, is this like, you.

[A]

Love James Cordon and supporting roles in movies?

[B]

I like James Aaster, who's also. And. And Ramesh Rang and a heck of people involved.

[C]

Not enough.

[B]

But it felt like the apotheosis of a sort of like, we can't just be like, guys, did you know Cinderella is kind of problematic. There has to be more than this.

[A]

Right?

[B]

We cannot do this.

[A]

Well, this is.

[B]

We must cease recently. And I. I want to say that I love and respect our friend Rachel Zegler. I cannot wait for her to come back on the show.

[A]

Same it. Yes. Possibly will have happened recently if not. Cut the statement out, Ben.

[B]

But nonetheless. But I watched that Snow White movie.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And he is stinky poo poo.

[A]

It's stinky poo poo now.

[B]

No good.

[A]

I will say this.

[B]

She acquits herself just about as well as you could.

[A]

And Rachel situation a movie star in the way that this movie is about where you're just like, anytime she is doing something on screen is magical. And she is so multi skilled and smart about what she she's doing that anytime it is a close up of her face, you're like, this is a real movie. And then it cuts out to a wide shot. Of the eight worst looking characters I have ever seen. More every time these CGI dwarves were on screen, I wanted to eat glass and then spit it into my eyes.

[C]

Well, let me tell you, Rachel, Rachel, a star so talented.

[A]

You're trying to start not forcing anybody good in the movie.

[C]

Yes, yes. But the dwarves showed up at my screening. The child behind me screamed, yeah, they came out, they're like, they're shadowy. And then they walk out and they're like, hey ho, hi ho, whatever. Or whatever.

[B]

No, it's hi ho with a bunch of new stuff.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And the kid behind me goes, I.

[A]

Turned to my girlfriend and I said like 30 seconds into them being introduced, I said, I am physically suffering from having to look at them on screen. And I think this is going to be a big issue for the rest of the movie. Anytime they were on screen, I was like shaking.

[C]

You would think that they're a scary small issue, Griffin.

[A]

They should be a little issue. And in fact. But, but is another example of what you're saying of like, okay, we want to make a big expensive liveaction Snow White. Obviously Snow White is problematic now, so we have to address all the controversies head on. And I'm like, or maybe you should take the lesson here, which is don't make modern Snow White. Don't make modern Cinderella. You're so worried about these movies. Don't do that. Right.

[C]

It's also the new songs never mesh well. I never watched the Cinderella. I mean, I'm always concerned about David. But yes, that period of time was no good. No bueno.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Concerned about me.

[A]

Yeah, of course we're all worried about you.

[C]

We're all worried about you all the time.

[B]

Stop being me.

[A]

Snow White already only had like three songs to begin with in the original movie. And then this one of them involves.

[C]

A lot of whistling.

[A]

Right? This movie cuts out one of the three songs because it does woke and you're like, so we're down to two.

[B]

And then it's like dog fun. And you're just like, what's this song about? Like, I don't know.

[A]

They also, they, they don't want the dwarves to Be dwarves, Right? Because they think that's condescending. So they're like, sorry for my. It is them. And they look like the cartoon designs and they have the same names, but they're actually some kind of weird magical creature. So they do hi ho. And in the middle of hi ho, they add three verses being like, we are immortal. We come for a sacred realm. I'm not you. They do have. And they're doing, like, mining as if.

[B]

It was kind of like Lord of the Rings.

[A]

Dwarfs start explaining like, we're our own thing.

[B]

We can detect jewels with a special sense. We're not exaggerating.

[A]

It's absurd. And I'm, like, ripping out my seat cushion.

[C]

Children are crying. Children are screaming.

[A]

Rachel Tickler's face.

[B]

She is. She really does acquit herself. Someone else in the film I thought was no bueno. There was another actress.

[C]

Oh, I believe she sings quite a bit in it. And it sounds.

[B]

Something was happening in those scenes. Yeah, I'm not sure if I'd call it that.

[A]

In her defense, there was such a warm reception to her singing the song imagine on Instagram in the year 2020, that who wouldn't then follow that lead and say, I gotta quadruple down on this.

[C]

I mean, I thought that video was so powerful and meaningful, and it really turned my pandemic experience around. And right. Right now, I really would love to lead us in a rendition of it. Yes.

[B]

Let's do it.

[A]

Okay. And, guys, just to pay proper tribute to the original video, let's make sure that none of us are in the same position that when we hand off.

[C]

From one line to another, I vote not going outside where it's hot.

[B]

And if you want to, like, jam some sort of sand into your iPhone microphone, you know, really make it hard for it to pick up the noise. Right.

[C]

Because you want to hold it up to your nostrils.

[A]

Some people are doing it amidst whipping winds. Some people have dogs barking in the background. Oh.

[C]

I'm also a part of the cast of the Wonder Woman 1984.

[B]

So, yes, they should make Wonder Woman 1985. What if they did that? They were like, now we're slowing it down. Like, it's not present.

[C]

Except it's not about 1985. It's about the Bowling for Soup song.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Please elaborate.

[C]

No.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Other Hopi stuff, I want to say yes. In that date scene, she goes to. How did you end up in this position? And he says, the spirit kind of story. That's this thing that used to happen that doesn't really happen anymore. But Chang Tatum is sort of one of these guys where he's like, I was a rodeo guy proper. Then I got side work as a wrangler. Then at some point they just go like, can we throw you a line? Then they realized I could speak. I think he became a stunt person. Then they threw him a line like this, like Slow Evolution. And then they like, they heard I could sing and then they decided I got to be the guy. You know, the line of and then I get to be the guy.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Is just. It's. I don't know.

[C]

Channing is such a good comp. I haven't thought about it that way. He's.

[A]

It's why I think his casting is so good.

[B]

Alton himself, I suppose a little bit this sort of. I mean, he's a little bit more of the like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

We found this gem on a fully form.

[A]

That's the difference. Like, where do we place him? Whereas Channing, like, we all got to see him build.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

We can see at this point weapons has come out. And I hope he's really good.

[A]

Very, very excited to see him in it. Yeah.

[B]

And of course, he's an Iron Ironheart.

[A]

Of course.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The world's most iron heart on time series. The most being released exactly when it was originally planned.

[B]

You know who he's playing in it, right?

[A]

He's. No. Who's he playing?

[B]

He's playing Ezekiel Stane. He's playing Jeff Bridges son.

[A]

And Anthony Ramos is the Red Hood. Oh, boy. They're pulling oh boy, 80th tier characters and signing like wildly over actors to play.

[B]

Well, that is the Marvel TV way. But like I occasionally will. I'll send any tweet I about Iron Heart to my brother because we're like obsessed with iron.

[A]

Not the Red Hood. The Hood. The Red Hood's a DC idiot.

[B]

And like there was some tweet that was like, iron Heart will not use magic until later in the series. And I was like, she's using magic.

[C]

Is that like the Dwarves?

[B]

Like, when did that get.

[A]

Well, that's what.

[B]

She had a suit.

[A]

By the time this episode comes out, it will have been a long settled thing. But isn't the rumor that Sasha Baron calls plays Mephisto in the series?

[B]

Are you kidding me?

[A]

I believe the show gets into the satanic arts, which is. Then you realize that he was pulling the strings on the Hood. I think that's where this is going. Or perhaps that was five versions ago.

[B]

Right? No, I think you're certainly. That's rumored.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Anyway, anything Else you want to say about beautiful Hobie Doyle, we must just call out.

[A]

Would that it were so simple. Which is, for my money, one of the funniest scenes in the history. And I know that I like to make hyperbolic statements as such, but this thing hits so hard every single.

[B]

It's kind of like, oh, brother thing of like doing the, you know, damn, we're in a tight spot four times of like, what did. It's like, it takes. It goes on for so long that you're like, this can't be funny anymore. And then of course it gets funny.

[A]

But also like, it's such a slow burn of just like him arriving on set. Lorentz immediately clocking like, this isn't my kind of guy. Right. I love the character detail. It's the kind of thing that finds play so well. But like, he is such a fucking pretentious snob that he's actually doing a bad job as a director in the process. Because it's like, dude, stop using the fucking $40 words.

[B]

He's kind of bullying.

[A]

Clearly not getting through to him. And it's not helping your movie.

[B]

I like the little jokes that get built in, such as when he's like, switches from Mr. Lawrence to Lawrence. And Hobie's like, wait a second, I thought. And he's like, no, you can use our Christian names. You know, like, you know, things like that.

[A]

Have you seen this before?

[C]

The sub jokes?

[B]

No, I had never seen it.

[A]

I want your overall pins. But this scene in particular, it's the.

[B]

Physical comedy of it is something that I've really dug in on. I think he just plays the physicality and just like conveying how out of depth he is just.

[A]

And just by a little bit. Right?

[C]

Like.

[A]

But it's just subtly off enough, even in like the same steps. And the handling.

[B]

I love when they pull out and all you can hear is his shoes squeaking, echoing in the room.

[C]

Here comes Obi, who.

[B]

Who's playing the female.

[A]

It's Emily Beam.

[B]

Right? Right. Very funny.

[A]

They did a really good. And you have Agnes Dean in here as well and Jack Houston. Like some of the fake movie stars they cast that you only get to see in snippets are correctly identified. These people have old fashioned faces. These are like old movie beauties with like old school kind of. They hold themselves in a certain way.

[C]

And they make the most of their two lines. Whatever it is, I adore that. She kind of like, what does she say? She says, allegra can't make it or something. I can't remember the exact line, but the more frustrated she gets with Hobie. Like you can see it little by little. And Hobie's clocking it, getting more flustered.

[A]

Where she has to react to him. And you see, I think they do a close up on her as he delivers his first line. And you see it in her eyes of like this whole movie is going down the drain and she can't totally blow it because she's got to stay in the scene. But she looks like they pulled her out of a time machine.

[C]

They also costumed her as such, right? Like the costume.

[A]

And they let her.

[C]

We haven't talked about the costuming in this. It's also. It's so perfect. We are in 1951.

[B]

God, even the hair, they really capture that perfect beauty.

[A]

Like in a way we don't get anymore.

[C]

We haven't shouted out, good Luck Bar. Rest in peace. Good Luck Bar in Los Feliz.

[A]

Oh, tell us about that.

[B]

I don't know what you're talking about. This is some LA nonsense.

[C]

This is not LA nonsense. The place is la.

[A]

Going for the meeting with the Lockheed bartender. Right?

[C]

It's like the. It's the Chinese restaurant.

[B]

Chinese restaurant.

[C]

Great old fashioned Chinese restaurant. Great bar. Went on a date there once. Great vibes.

[A]

Went all right, okay, whatever.

[B]

I've been to that restaurant as well. It's awesome.

[C]

There you go.

[B]

Yeah, I've never been there. Great food.

[C]

But I feel like the. The locations they ch. Not only is like, I don't know, like, like, like you could see it as an equivalent of like the Formosa Cafe, right? Where it's kind of like people went there all the time back in the golden age of Hollywood. And it's like the places they went were also just as much like facades as the studio, you know, like it's. And so this is their entire world. And it is like them attempting to leave the studio, but at the same time they're still in this like set surely.

[B]

Very well, Formosa is where LA Confidential. Which.

[A]

Where.

[C]

Yes.

[B]

Where he's like, you know, you look like. Don't just. Cuz you're a look cut to look like blah. Just like. No, it is her.

[C]

I love that all of these locations are like scattered around la, right? Like, it's not just this. I mean like Formosa's near where I live. Los Feliz had Good Luck Bar. There's like in Koreatown, there's a bar called the Prince, which was used in Chinatown. It was also the bar in New Girl. This is good and they never change.

[A]

I'm in love with this. I love control.

[B]

No, I know. I know. The prince, but because I think our friend Allison Herman had her one of her wedding events there.

[A]

Oh, Peewee Sisser.

[B]

Yes, exactly. Have you ever thought that, like, Los Angeles, another term for it could be like, the City of Angels?

[C]

Oh, man.

[B]

It's like Los Angeles, you know?

[A]

Do you remember that time that I won the Oscar for Best Actress? And it hit me in that moment. It's true what they say about this city. It's full of angels.

[B]

There you go. I'm sorry, guys. I just got to say, can we skip. Stick to the script, please?

[A]

That. That really was just me. Can you give me any direction? Anything you want differently this time?

[B]

Try doing what you're doing, but better.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

It is true what they say about this city.

[A]

Jet fuel doesn't melt steel beams.

[B]

She did say that. She did say that. We never went to the moon. Fake. Too lazy to go to the old moon.

[C]

Fly me to the moon.

[B]

You know what my favorite LA bar is?

[A]

All together?

[B]

It's a little place called Chicken on a Stick. Little jazz bar.

[A]

The.

[C]

Well could have just called it Sticken.

[A]

That's where jazz was created.

[B]

That's where Jaz is created by this really shiny white guy.

[A]

The, like, Copa Cabana Club.

[C]

How shiny?

[B]

Very shiny.

[A]

The Copa Cabana Club, where Hobie and Bron Carara's character home for Carlota. Carlota go on the arranged date. Right there is that feeling of like, oh, this is living the biggest Hollywood life, which a. Things were so much cooler when movie stars weren't going to the Viper Club or wherever the they're going.

[C]

Viper Room.

[A]

Okay. And it was like, man, I don't.

[C]

Think they go there anymore.

[A]

Hard days. Hard day of work. You got to go out and party. You sit a white tablecloth place or some big band plays this most brightly lit room in the world, and everyone has to dress nice and then just point at each other. But, like, yes, Channing Tatum's also there with the screen. Like, the two gossip comics are there. Like, this is, like, their nightlife, and yet this is all part of the machinery. This is basically a nighttime version of the studio commissary.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's so controlled, but it's supposed to not feel controlled.

[B]

Can I shout out another guy this movie? One of the actors in the Roman movie, Senator Systemis.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Is played by a guy called Clement Von Frankenstein.

[A]

Quite a good name.

[C]

Ooh, say it again.

[B]

Clement von Frankenstein.

[C]

Faster.

[B]

Clement Von Frankenstein. Slower. Clement von Frankenstein. Yeah. Isn't that a cool name? He's a member of the Frankenstein family.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would go by Frankenstein.

[A]

Well, Frankenstein.

[B]

What if my name was like, David Dracula? And I'm like, it's Dracula, actually. That's what I'm saying. Saying, just go with it, man.

[C]

He died in 2019.

[B]

He did.

[C]

And his rest. He's. He's. He's interred in the Hollywood Forever Cemetery, also in la.

[A]

Did we know that Heather Goldenhurst is married to Brian F O Byrne?

[B]

No. That's wonderful.

[A]

That's a cool fucking couple.

[B]

Couple great character actor legends there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, Brian Ern, great theater actor.

[A]

Yeah. I love this movie.

[C]

He has a little accent over the eye. Everyone knows this.

[A]

Brian Ethelburn. Brian.

[C]

Anyway, everyone has great names.

[A]

This is just a movie I find so relaxing for how much it is like a movie that really spins my brain. It gets me thinking off about a bunch of different things.

[C]

Right, your brain is thinking off.

[A]

My brain is thinking off. But the aesthetic pleasures of this movie, the, like, tuning of every single performance and that it does ultimately, like, reassert why I am so obsessed and build my life around these stupid things that are so hard to make and evolve, like, so much pain and suffering and also involves, like, the worst people in the world ruining other people's lives. It just makes me feel very romantic.

[B]

I love the name the Future. It's so dumb. So extremely dumb.

[C]

We are the future. I like that their ransom note is also just like somebody, you know, got on a typewriter, wrote four lines, cute, cute little note, but none of this cutting things out of magazines.

[A]

Also that they're literally. Their plan is to hand a big briefcase of money to a submarine captain so that he, like, remembers them fondly.

[B]

Take it to the Soviet Union, be like, here's a, you know, demonstrably small amount of money, compliments of the future.

[A]

Right. It doesn't feel like they want to go to Russia. I think they're more like, in case they take over, they'll, like, look kindly upon us or whatever.

[C]

I'm amused. Okay. That sequence does feel like. Like it's. Everything about it is hilarious to me. It's also like they all. They all have the same raincoats.

[A]

It feels like a fantasy sequence.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

It also. It, like, looks like tank photography in this very traditional. Even though it is ostensibly a quote unquote, real world sequence, it is as coded in the language of the genres of films that you're seeing in the productions. And even the look of the submarine having this kind of model. And then you're like, now we're just on a big balsa wood. That's clearly only the top of the movie.

[C]

That's the one where, like, that's the one scene I feel like doesn't have that dichotomy that the rest of the film has. That's kind of like it's fake, but it's real at the same time. We pull away, we see the set.

[A]

It's a classic Cohen deflation, right? Of, like, this is the big meeting. And then, like, Channing does his, like, perfect, like, dancer jump, but his. His foofy little dog jumps off and he has to catch him, which then causes him to drop the briefcase and it was all for nothing.

[C]

God, 100k.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I think we're going to play the box office game unless there's anything else.

[A]

I just call one tiny thing I like, please. Jonah Hill tells a story about the weekend that Superbad came out. And he went out to a bar with his friends and they were like, you're a fucking movie star overnight. This is crazy. You got to have, like, the best weekend of your life, right? You've just, like, immediately made it. And they go to this bar and Scarlet Johansson's there, and they were like, you should go talk to Scarlett Johansson. And he was like, a guy like me can't talk to Scarlett Johansson. And they were like, my guy. You just became a number one at the bottom. This thing's a hit. You can go talk to her. And he went over and talked to her, and she clearly had no idea who he was. And he talks about it as, like, the perfect, immediate deflation at the moment. He was riding high. There's something kind of nice about this movie ending with him getting married off screen.

[C]

It's. It is beautiful. I like that she pruned his ego and then, you know, off screen inflates his character.

[A]

It also feels like part of what attracts her to him is that he is some schmo, where she's like, this guy isn't going to get caught up in some crazy fucking ego.

[C]

Totally. Well, she likes again that he's reliable and he's. Well, I. I don't know. Can I say one more thing about. Listen, you're not tired of me yet. I mean, here's the. It's like, I feel like rewatching this. For me, I was kind of like, yeah, this movie is about. I mean, it's about a million things, but it is also squarely about whether, you know, to have passion for the job that you Do?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And is it like, how much do you sacrifice in order to feel fulfilled to an extent at what you do day in and day out?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And there is a way to read this film as, like, well, the problem is he could do Lockheed and he would just be dead inside. Or he does this and he continues to not see his family and he's, you know, dying in some other way, and there's no. And there's no middle ground. And that's such a bleak read. But the film. But what I love about it is that the Cohens kind of push you to see it as more optimistic than that. They're reassuring. They're like Jonah Hill to me.

[A]

Well, also that Alison Pill is like, it would be nice to have you around more, but isn't like, you better take that job.

[C]

Right, right, right.

[A]

And his children still love him. And you, you can tell that he clearly wishes he could be there a little more, but he is so relieved that, like, oh, my God, his problem got solved.

[B]

I'll tell you something, please. I was married to Allison Pill. Home every night. Knock, knock.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Open the door. I guess I would have keys. Key and door.

[A]

I got a prescription. It says, one pill.

[B]

Exactly, exactly.

[A]

Do not skip.

[B]

And thank you for saying that. And I do think it's important.

[A]

Take with water. I, I, the reason I said that there's this sort of, like, realization within Eddie that he is dirty show folk is that point, which is just like, it's not about just finding joy in a job, but the whole thing about the entertainment industry making stuff is for all the, like, perceived glamour. If you make it all the way to the top, which is a fucking moonshot, a lazy moonshot. So much of it is so unglamorous, so annoying, so soul crushing that the only reason you do it is if it, there's just nothing else you can do, right? Like, to some degree, you're broken inside where you're just like, even just being the guy handing out the box lunches who, once George Clooney is giving his speech, seems like the most checked out dude in the world until that moment. And you see him lock in and be like, oh, Baird's doing a good take, right? As does everyone else on set. Starts to look up with this, like, Spielberg gaze of like we're witnessing missing something cool happening. That's why we do this job rather than work at a restaurant. Right? And I think it's telling that there are the couple of moments where the Lockheed Martin guy is interviewing Eddie and he'll say, like, do you really want to spend all your time, like, babysitting children? You know, like carny circus folk? Like, he'll say these kind of derogatory things, and every time he does something like that, it cuts back to Mannix and he winces where he's just kind of, like, holding it together, but he's like, don't talk that way. Way about my people. Right. I know you think that I'm the serious grownup who gets things done and they're the silly petulant, but it's hard for them.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah. And, like, I am one of them. I just do it in a different way. Yeah.

[B]

He cares.

[A]

He cares.

[B]

Can I just share one final thing?

[C]

Yes, please.

[B]

Me, too.

[A]

Make it three.

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

We'll see.

[B]

But the water sequence is awesome.

[A]

The. The. The Johansen.

[B]

Yeah. I like when cameras get splashed with water, and I want to see that more. You like a wet cam? I do, yeah. I do. Okay.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[C]

Sometimes blood does that, Dirt does that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But you want the water stain the lens.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Mess with the lens, throw stuff on it. Yeah. Don't check the gate.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You want a dirty lens.

[A]

Keep the gate unchecked.

[B]

And then I'll just say with the Roman kind of opening, when you see Clooney, I think arches for pedestrians. Yeah. I want to see more of that. Again, I'm sorry. It's so epic to walk under an arch. So you just want to be, like, on the street and, like, here's an arch. It's not serving any real purpose. Yes. But now, do you ever feel that way when you're, like, walking under some scaffolding on a New York City sidewalk? I don't feel that way.

[A]

I'm more like.

[C]

Like, that's arch in progress.

[B]

Arch in progress.

[C]

Do you go.

[B]

Do you arch to be shot?

[C]

Go to Washington Square park and just.

[B]

Big arch loop around.

[A]

You should be crouched down every day.

[B]

Absolutely.

[A]

Doing laps.

[B]

Grand Army Plaza. There's a few big arches around.

[C]

Then you should go to Paris and then go into the middle of the ar and just go.

[B]

Last summer and I got a lot of. I got a taste of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Fucking point me to the French triumphs of late. Jesus. Got a whole arch for it. I don't.

[C]

You're being so nasty and not nostalgic today.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, that's so true. I should be, ah, par.

[A]

You're being more of a Thessaly Thacker when you should be more of a Thor thacker.

[B]

I can't wait to revisit France in my most excited upcoming new movie, Ratatouille 2.

[C]

Why don't they just call it Ratatouille?

[A]

I hope that by the time this.

[B]

Episode comes out, that rumor has has been quashed definitively.

[A]

But I also wonder if 50% of the meeting where they're batting about is just like. I mean, you put the 2 numeral 2 in the title, the thing sells itself.

[B]

Could really put it anywhere.

[A]

A marketing department could take the year off.

[B]

My guess is it's a cat that now cooks with the rack.

[A]

That would suck. Ben, I've liked every idea you've ever had.

[B]

They have to figure out how to get along.

[C]

They can't put a cat in a chef's head. It's just the cat in the hat.

[A]

Yeah, you can't. And he's already got his own movie coming out.

[C]

He's already.

[B]

Damn.

[C]

Okay, we got to workshop this.

[B]

Yeah, the film came out. Oh, what are you going to say, Shirley?

[A]

Tell me when the film came out to the box office.

[B]

We love Shirley so much.

[C]

I love you guys. I've missed you guys.

[A]

We've missed you. Our listeners have missed you. Do you remember this?

[C]

I've missed hearing Griffin say totemic, which he hasn't said today.

[B]

Totemic.

[C]

You use the word totemic a lot.

[A]

I'm going to save it. I do.

[C]

Haven't I said that to you before? Never mind. Okay, going on.

[B]

Do you remember?

[A]

I was debating whether to say it now or save it for in the episode. Make it count.

[B]

You were in town last year.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

I mean, you're off. Here's some. You come into town sometimes I come into town. We had dinner at Place Tiffet.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Nice work if you can get it.

[B]

And then we walk out. If you remember this, we're walking in Clinton Hill, and then I see just out of the corner of my eye into the window of, like, a person's house. And what was happening on the television was something we had successfully blocked out, which was the Trump Biden debate. Annihilated Biden. Biden for good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, I think we had been like, let's have dinner. And we're like, we won't worry about the, you know, like, ah, you know, so stressful.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then, like, I got home and, like, my brother was texting me the way, you know, my wife, where they were like, it's the apocalypse. He's basically stood there not speaking for an hour. Even Trump seems concerned.

[C]

No, that was the last happy moment.

[B]

Like, you went home to Ariana was like, one of your friends.

[C]

I was staying at Ariana's, and I think she was like, I walk in the door and she goes, biden's gonna win.

[B]

And you were like, oh, really? She's like, no.

[A]

I looked up because I knew I had deliberately planned something else on that one.

[B]

We all had the same thought of, like, I can't be, you know, watching.

[A]

And we were like, grab dinner.

[C]

After our very hard job, Romley and.

[A]

I went to see Little Shop of Horror for the third time. And I walked out and I was.

[B]

Like, little Shop, little shop.

[A]

And then I got like 40 texts that are like, it's awesome.

[B]

It's collapsing. Truly. It was one of those things where I was like, well, I assume you do bad. And they're like, well, you assumed wrong. It's a billion times less.

[A]

I think, like, 10 different people in my life texted me skull emojis.

[C]

Wait, that's right. I, I, I remember being like, oh, no, he didn't do well, did he? And she was like.

[A]

Right.

[B]

First minute was fine. I feel like it pretty quickly went off the rail.

[A]

He started with Corn Pop. Great opening.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Oh, man. They just kept telling him that General.

[B]

Motors is alive and Corn Pop is dead. What if he started with that?

[A]

All right.

[B]

The film came out February 5th, 2016. Number two at the box office, opening to $11 million.

[A]

It ends up at.

[B]

Domestically, it ended up at 30.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And worldwide, it was 665.

[A]

It is kind of crazy that the Cohen brand was so strong at this point that they can make a movie for $22 million that just gets to $30 million dollars. Even though most of the public is like, huh, sure, on to the next one. But okay, yes.

[B]

So number two.

[A]

Number two.

[B]

Number one at the box office is a animated sequel. Number two, like in a second weekend.

[A]

It's a deuce. It's in second.

[B]

No, no, it's not a number two.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

It's in its second weekend. It's an animated sequel.

[A]

Is it a three?

[B]

Yes, it is.

[A]

It's a three. Is it Kung Fu Panda 3?

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Kate Hudson, is that right? I believe his lady panda in that. Oh, Bryan Cranston is dad Panda. He finds all the other pandas. It's a movie set in the land of the pandas. I have never seen it.

[C]

I think I've seen and you know so much.

[B]

I think the only one I haven't seen is Four.

[A]

I haven't seen either of those. I know that one was a co production with, like, I believe Pearl Animation.

[B]

You know, I've never seen it. I've only seen one and two.

[A]

I guess DreamWorks specifically launched a Chinese animation company to get funding from the Chinese government and be like, and we're going to make movies for your market. And it was called Pearl Animation Studios. And I think that one, they were like, we're doing something kind of interesting. We're not making this one. Pearl is making it a different company.

[C]

That really worked.

[A]

Really worked. Pearl was shut down five years ago.

[B]

Three and four are holdovers from Christmas time. Both very successful movies.

[A]

Okay. From 2015, I would have to imagine that one of them is Star wars episode seven, the Force Awakens.

[B]

That is number three at the box office. It has made $906 million in eight weeks.

[A]

Like to forget that it is still domestically the highest grossing movie of all time.

[B]

Number four at the box office is.

[C]

I do like to forget that people.

[A]

Forget that people think that Endgame overtook it because it did worldwide. But domestically it's Force Awakens by a good margin.

[B]

The other one is a best picture nominee. Won some Oscars. Big hit.

[A]

Star Wars Counter programming, I guess. So.

[B]

Grown up movie for sure.

[A]

Grown up movie. 2015. It was a big hit. We crossed over. Oh, it is the Revenant, which made.

[B]

A lot of money and was a.

[A]

Big hit, I think sucks and is for losers.

[B]

I've only. I am more of a fan of it than you, but I'm wondering if.

[A]

I were to watch it now.

[B]

It's an incredible looking movie.

[A]

I expect it more. But I.

[B]

It's like sort of an unbelievable technical achievement.

[A]

I will brag that. I saw it early and I was like, this thing sucks. This is doa And I had the opposite Hulk reaction where I walked out and I was like, this thing is making $0 and it's fucking coming up empty at the Oscars. Like, I had an unvarnished opinion before I heard any reviews and that thing just completely bounced off.

[B]

It is not your kind of movie. I would say sort of Mountain Man. Serious survivalist epic thing.

[A]

But I also think Leo winning the Oscar for that is like a good encaps of a lot of what's wrong with the Oscars and their mentality.

[B]

Definitely.

[C]

You don't think actors should suffer.

[B]

He ate liver.

[A]

Exactly.

[C]

I saw the Revenant with my dad and he walked out and was like, that bear was too small. He fixates on like one critique.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And it takes him out of it mostly because if there's a bunch of talking, there's a language barrier and he needs A minute.

[A]

But that movie, there wasn't a ton of talking. But the bear was too small.

[C]

No, the bear was too small.

[B]

Number five at the box office is new this week. It is a romantic drama, a Sparks. One of. I would say the more forgotten Sparks.

[A]

One of the more forgotten sparks is interesting. Is it the one with Marzin?

[B]

No. No.

[A]

Okay, I'm gonna try to get to this by Star. It's not the Julianne Hough Josh du Mel one. Yeah.

[B]

You're gonna struggle with Star because I would say this one is a little light on. On, you know, Stardust from the disguise.

[A]

It was a. It was a mardin. Michelle Monahan, I think were the one.

[B]

You can talk about other Nicholas Sparks movies if you want, but this kind of had. I feel like there. These are two guys who they are hoping, you know, a guy and a gal who they are hoping to make stars.

[A]

It's not the lucky ones.

[B]

No, no.

[A]

Is it younger?

[B]

Nope.

[C]

Look this up. And I forgot this existed.

[A]

Are the stars young?

[B]

They're in their 30s.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, early 30s.

[A]

But they're trying to launch them as stars?

[B]

I think so. Yeah. These one. The guy is someone that Hollywood for a few years is like, should he be a star?

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

Then was like, no.

[A]

So it's not that. Yeah. Did Patrick Schwarzenegger do one at some point. But it's not that.

[B]

I mean he's about to be like Cyclops.

[A]

I know he's gonna be something. Hollywood was trying to make them happen.

[B]

I mean, sort of. I'll tell you that the film made 23 million on a budget. Budget of 10.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I'll tell you that it was directed by Ross Katz. That also made Adult Beginners.

[A]

Does not help at all.

[B]

No, it doesn't.

[A]

Who was the distributor of this?

[B]

The distributor was Lionsgate.

[A]

So it was also kind of maybe a lower tier one.

[B]

Yeah. And I. I feel like the spark shine is kind of going away at this point. Like this is a leader, you know, this one's tough. Yeah.

[C]

I mean I. I completely forgot this.

[A]

Give me one of the stars and see if I might not even be able to get this title. But give me, give me one of the stars.

[B]

Benjamin Walker.

[A]

Oh, fuck. Yes. And it's Teresa Palmer.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And it is called.

[B]

You've also got Maggie Grace. I can picture the Alexandra Daddario.

[C]

You know, the truth is, you could just toss out any word.

[A]

He's wearing sunglasses and got a dumb smile. It's not called like the Best of Us, is it? No, but the title's Almost. I mean, it's something that.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Just.

[A]

It's not called all of Me. Is there an of in the title? No, there's the, The. The. The blanks.

[B]

It's called the Choice.

[A]

Yeah. That's one of the least existent movies we've ever had from box office.

[B]

Alexandra Daddario, Tom Welling, Tom Wilkinson. That's the one getting you going.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Panned by critics. Also new this week at number six.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is Pride and Prejudice and Zombies, another sort of bomb.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Directed by Burr Steers.

[A]

I believe I went down a weird Wikipedia rabbit hole on how fucking hot the development of that movie was for 10 years before it ended up just getting kind of fucking dumped in theaters. But people forget that was supposed to be Natalie Portman starring in David O. Russell directing.

[B]

They dumped it. Right. It was like the juice of that gimmick had like long since vanished.

[A]

And fucking Benjamin Walker as Abraham Lincoln, vampire hunter had bumped.

[B]

Had happened.

[A]

The thing was over.

[B]

You've also got a movie I stand for, Craig Gillespie's the Finest Hours. And get getting over that bar. We gotta get the boat over the bar. You got ride along 2 film you tried to get in a part of.

[A]

Right. I was.

[B]

You were close.

[A]

I was close, yeah.

[B]

And then they replaced you with what, Ken Jong or something?

[A]

I don't know if I've ever talked about this on Mike or if I've talked about on Mike 80 times, but they. They wanted me to. I. I would have had to have quit the pilot of Vinyl before it was shot.

[B]

Yes. That was it. Right.

[A]

Which was like, at the end of.

[B]

The day, I think it's better that you did Vinyl. You got directed by Martin Scorsese.

[A]

That's the biggest thing. And it did go to series and it did pay my rent for a year when this podcast made no money too.

[B]

Like, you know, no one remembers. Right along too.

[A]

Do you know the other part of it is the casting director who was really kind of championing me for this part, which was written to be a 20 something Zuckerberg annoying guy. And it was me, Will Poulter and Dylan o'. Brien.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And it was a test and they wouldn't let me test unless I quit Vinyl. And I came to Trivia and I hadn't slept in two days and I was like, this feels like the biggest decision of my career. What do I do? And it was an overlap of two days between the two productions, but they wouldn't allow it and I had to quit the one job and I chose Vinyl, which was the right move. But the other thing that happened was that casting director had such a bee in her bonnet of like, I want to fucking hire him, that a year later, she gets hired onto a new series and says, this is my chance to hire Griffin. And it was the Tick.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

If I had done two, I probably also wouldn't have done the Tick, which is more important to me. And that's how I met you.

[C]

That's how we met.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You reviewed him for the Tick.

[C]

We're being nostalgic and not nasty, dude.

[A]

Shirley showed up on set in what I'm not kidding, was probably the hottest day we ever filmed. Was in a cooling tent. The day before that, the tent was a cooling tent that didn't have a fan. They bought the fan because that previous day, Peter. Peter had fainted. And so Shirley at least got to be in a tent with a fan. And we. We met.

[B]

Yeah, we love Shirley.

[C]

No, I love you guys.

[A]

Griffin. Him in Breaking Big.

[C]

I mean, I. I remember you guys were. Yeah, you guys were doing your podcast. I remember meeting you, and you were. And David was like, you're gonna meet my friend. And I was like, I know this.

[A]

But we've only been doing the podcast for a little over a year at that point.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You were very neat. I still remember when you were. We were walking to Olive Garden. I was a fellow at the Atlantic, and you were like, I'm. I think my friend and I are gonna do a Star wars podcast. And like, I was like, that sounds fun.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Sounds neat.

[B]

That sounds right.

[C]

You should do that.

[A]

Good luck with that.

[B]

Weird choice.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Remember Garden?

[B]

It was kind of a weird choice.

[C]

I still.

[B]

The only time I've ever been.

[C]

Yeah. I don't know why we did that.

[B]

You, Joe and Kevin.

[C]

Yeah, I think it was a bit.

[B]

Because we were like, Kevin being like, let's. Yeah, I love Olive Garden. You've never been. Yeah, whatever.

[A]

The Breadsticks are good.

[B]

The Breadsticks still hit Decade of dreams number 95. Decade dreams number. Night of the Box. No, out of the box office. The Boy, that movie about the boy with Jared Kushner.

[A]

Oh, right, of course. Which then led to Brahms Colon the.

[B]

Boy, the Boy Too, of course. Which is directed by Tarkovsky.

[A]

I don't know. It's one of the weirdest titles ever.

[B]

Brahms the Boy Too.

[A]

Is Katie Holmes in both of those movies?

[B]

She's in Brahms the Boy Too, but she is not in the Boy.

[A]

How absurd.

[B]

She doesn't get enough until Brahms enters Number Number 10 of the box office is dirty grandpa.

[A]

Uh huh.

[B]

And that's the 10 of the Hail Caesar. And that's that. That's over.

[C]

February 2016.

[A]

Yeah. Shirley, thank you so much.

[C]

Thank you for having me.

[A]

I'm so glad we made it happen. It's gotta happen again sooner.

[C]

I'll be back in town.

[A]

Get David on a train to la. David is asleep.

[C]

No, he's just doing the whale again.

[A]

He's too tired to even do the whale. Shirley, is there anything you want to plug? Kind of a whale. It was like whale post heart attack.

[C]

It was a tiny whale.

[A]

It was a little whale.

[C]

It's the dead whale in the film the shallows, Baby beluga. Anything I want to plug?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't know my iPhone in because it needs charging comedy points.

[A]

Great job.

[C]

Thank you. I don't know. I'm still at the Atlantic with David over here.

[A]

Hell yeah.

[C]

You know, great to always work with David.

[A]

Can't believe how.

[C]

How things have changed over time.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. I don't know. I. I'm. I'm around.

[A]

Hell yeah. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. Subscribe. Tune in next week for the ballot of Buster Scruggs.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We don't know who's on that one. No, probably Buster himself.

[A]

I think we're very close to booking Buster, but he also has thrown his hat in the ring for League of Their Own, so it's. We don't know which one he's going to end up on. And as always, truly thank you for another totemic episode of this podcast.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

Oh, man, I'm honored.

[B]

Okay, that's a wrap on Shirley. Great. D. You two have to stay and record ads. Okay. All right, gang.

[A]

All right, let's go. I got my quote ready to go.

[B]

All right. I like us to have fun out there. All right, thanks. Really bring your true self. Feel authentic.

[A]

Okay, I can't. Is this your impression of a director? It does feel very soft. Soccer coach.

[C]

I'm suddenly nervous. I don't know what to tell you.

[A]

You need to have big director bullhorn energy.

[B]

All right, well, listen, I think we should get into it.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

All right. Action.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Bar Hardy Salinas.

[A]

And our Associate producer is AJ McKeon.

[B]

This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithee, research by JJ Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the great American novel with additional music by Alex Mitchell, artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the content.

[A]

The Real nerdy shit.

[B]

Join our Patreon Blank Check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at Blank checkpod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.