Inland Empire with David Rees

Summary

Summary of "Blank Check with Griffin & David" Episode: Inland Empire with David Rees
Release Date: November 24, 2024

---

Introduction

In this episode of Blank Check with Griffin & David, produced by Ben Hosley, hosts Griffin Newman and David Sims delve deep into David Lynch's enigmatic film Inland Empire. The miniseries focuses on directors who received early successes, granting them the creative freedom— the "blank check"—to pursue passion projects. This particular episode marks the exploration of Lynch's final theatrical feature film as of the recording date.

---

Ben Hosley's Connection with Inland Empire

Ben Hosley shares his personal journey with Inland Empire, recounting his initial viewing experience and subsequent deep dives into the film.

• First Viewing ([15:04]):
  Ben: "I saw it on March 10, 2007, at the Carolina Theater in Durham. It was spring of my senior year of high school. The theater was nearly empty, making it a unique and intimate experience."

• Subsequent Viewings ([04:14] - [04:39]):
  Ben: "The first and third times I watched Inland Empire, it was transformative. The third viewing, in particular, elevated it to my favorite David Lynch film."

---

Exploring Multiple Viewings and Insights

The conversation highlights how repeated viewings of Inland Empire unravel deeper layers of its complex narrative and technical craftsmanship.

• Second Viewing ([14:16] - [22:07]):
  Ben: "Watching with friends revealed nuances I'd previously overlooked. It demanded a collective engagement, enhancing my appreciation of Lynch's intricate storytelling."

• Live Scoring Experience ([125:34] - [175:36]):
  Ben: "We attempted a live improvisational score while watching Inland Empire. This immersive experience allowed us to interact with the film's emotional landscape creatively."

  Griffin: "Facing Laura Dern's character while providing a live score mirrored the film's themes of reality and perception, making the experience profoundly impactful."

---

Technical and Artistic Choices in Inland Empire

David Lynch's unconventional filmmaking techniques are dissected to understand their contribution to the film's haunting aesthetic.

• Digital Filmmaking ([65:56] - [84:03]):
  Griffin: "Lynch's choice to shoot on a Sony PD150 digital camera introduced deliberate artifacts and a raw visual texture, enhancing the film's dreamlike quality."

  David: "He described his digital camera as his 'beautiful little ugly thing,' embracing its limitations to foster artistic expression."

• Improvisation and Script ([152:00] - [167:27]):
  Ben: "The lack of a traditional script meant that performances were spontaneous. Laura Dern's ability to convey deep emotion without predefined lines showcased her extraordinary talent."

---

Performances and Character Analysis

The episode delves into the standout performances that bring Inland Empire's surreal narrative to life.

• Laura Dern's Role ([155:56] - [157:31]):
  Ben: "Dern's portrayal is mesmerizing. Her character navigates through various emotional states, embodying the film's central themes of identity and transformation."

  Griffin: "Her performances bridge the gap between scripted drama and raw emotional authenticity, making her a linchpin in Lynch's cinematic tapestry."

• Jeremy Irons and Naomi Watts ([123:18] - [157:31]):
  David: "Irons' character adds a layer of gravitas, while Watts' presence infuses the film with enigmatic allure. Their interactions with Dern's character are pivotal to the narrative's progression."

---

David Lynch's Creative Process and Influence

A deep dive into Lynch's methodology reveals his commitment to pushing the boundaries of traditional filmmaking.

• Artistic Philosophy ([173:10] - [175:36]):
  Griffin: "Mel Brooks aptly described Lynch as 'as close to the phenomenon of life and why we're here and why we have to die as any artist I've ever met.' This encapsulates Lynch's profound influence on his work and, by extension, on filmmakers like Ben."

  Ben: "Lynch's intuitive approach, where every moment is an exploration without a fixed blueprint, sets him apart as a true auteur."

• Flow State and Intuition ([175:36] - [177:02]):
  Ben: "Engaging with Inland Empire felt like entering a flow state. The improvisational elements required us to be present and reactive, mirroring Lynch's own creative spontaneity."

---

Symbolism and Themes

Inland Empire is rich with recurring motifs that explore the subconscious, reality, and the fragmentation of identity.

• Keys and Portals ([163:10] - [174:00]):
  Ben: "Keys symbolize access and transition between different states of being. Throughout the film, they're entwined with themes of control and release."

• Reality vs. Perception ([153:14] - [175:02]):
  Griffin: "The film blurs the lines between dream and reality, creating a narrative that challenges viewers to question what they're witnessing."

  David: "This ambiguity is a hallmark of Lynch's work, making Inland Empire a profound commentary on the nature of perception."

---

Conclusion: The Lasting Impact of Inland Empire

The episode wraps up with reflections on how Inland Empire has reshaped Ben's approach to film appreciation and creation.

• Transformative Experience ([171:00] - [175:36]):
  Ben: "Watching and engaging with Inland Empire has deepened my understanding of film as an emotional and intuitive medium. It's inspired me to pursue more interactive and immersive experiences in my creative endeavors."

  Griffin: "Lynch's unique blend of narrative and artistic experimentation not only captivates but also challenges the very essence of storytelling in cinema."

---

Notable Quotes

• Ben Hosley on the Film's Impact ([43:39] - [44:17]):

  "It's like, I really remember the shot of Laura Dern running towards the camera on that outdoor path, and then close up on her face with that agonizing grimace amidst an overlit scene. It was one of the biggest things I've ever seen."

• Griffin on Lynch's Process ([52:00] - [52:07]):

  "This is his movie, and it makes sense that this is what he would get to as the through line from the process of how he made it."

• Ben on Engaging with the Film ([69:06] - [78:27]):

  "Watching Inland Empire live with friends and scoring it was one of the great creative experiences of my adult life. It changed the way I engage with movies going forward."

• Griffin on Lynch's Artistic Nature ([173:10] - [173:23]):

  "That's why you cannot totally crack them because he's making movies about these unanswerable questions that fundamentally kind of don't make sense."

---

This episode offers an in-depth exploration of David Lynch's Inland Empire, highlighting its complex narrative, technical ingenuity, and profound emotional resonance. Through personal anecdotes and analytical discussions, Ben Hosley, alongside Griffin Newman and David Sims, unravels the layers that make this film a standout in Lynch's illustrious career.

Transcript

[David]

Blank check with Griffin and David. Blankjack with Griffin and David.

[Griffin]

Don't know what to say or to expect.

[David]

All you need to know is that the name of the shadow is Blackjack.

[Griffin]

Some podcasts change. Well, they don't change. They reveal. They reveal themselves over time. You know, kind of a low energy.

[David]

You didn't want to do, like, brutal podcasting.

[Griffin]

Something like that.

[David]

I'm trying to think of, like, it is true that even though Inland Empire has lots of dialogue, it's. It's not like a movie where I'm like, so quotable.

[Griffin]

Bam. I kicked him straight in the podcast so hard they go crawling into his brain for a refuge. He went down like a two dollar whore. I was the other. There are consequences to one's podcasts, and there certainly would be podcasts to. Wrong action. I blew whatever gives a. What would you do?

[David]

Podcasting.

[Griffin]

Okay, see, Ben's right. This is the right way to open with a quote for this movie is an eerie stare.

[David]

Yeah. Can you do it for me? Thank you. And with the teeth out. You're doing the. Trying to do the teeth.

[Griffin]

And just imagine, like holding a light bulb two inches below your chin, just blowing your face out.

[Ben]

You could say, hey, this feels just like dialogue from our podcast.

[Griffin]

That is good. How many times have you seen this movie?

[Ben]

Three times.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[David]

I've seen it four times.

[Griffin]

Well, it's not a competition.

[David]

Well, you kind of set it up like one.

[Griffin]

No, because I feel like our guest today, the movies we've had you on for, you're very particular about when you come on. It has to be kind of a totemic film. We always.

[Ben]

At least to me it does.

[Griffin]

Doors wide open. And there are other things we've kicked around that you've almost done, but it feels like it has to be the right kind of thing. But I also feel like despite the fact that you are a man who is very thorough, dare I say, can be obsessive within certain passions and interests, I think there is a ceiling on how many times you watch a movie. So even the movies that are the most impactful for you, I feel like you've never gone beyond five. Is that right?

[David]

You're not really a big rewatcher.

[Griffin]

28 Days later episode. I feel like you said that was the most you've ever watched a movie.

[Ben]

And that was that five times.

[Griffin]

That's my memory.

[Ben]

So I think I've seen. Yeah. 28 days later five times. And I think. I don't think I've ever seen a movie six times. But I Think there's multiple movies I've seen five times.

[David]

Not even as a kid. You wouldn't watch like, you know, whatever, some comedy?

[Ben]

Well, we didn't have a VCR for a long time.

[Griffin]

Sure.

[David]

And you probably didn't have like cable.

[Ben]

No, my parents did not pay for it.

[Griffin]

So no control. You're at the mercy of the network.

[David]

Programmer flipping around, watching the same movies over and over.

[Griffin]

But there was no like going to see Star wars six times in theaters.

[Ben]

No, that would have been an indulgence. That would have been beyond my parents imagination. But I wonder, over the course of my life, have I seen Star wars like all the way through five times?

[David]

Possibly. But then we're not, we're not talking about like. Right, about that. Of like. Yeah, through osmosis. Some movies are always playing the intentionality.

[Griffin]

I guess is what we're asking.

[David]

I like, I like the way you're putting it of like. Right. You going to your parents as a young person and being like, I'd like to see Star wars again. And they being them being like you.

[Ben]

But you've already seen, you've already seen it once, just exhausted. There's nothing more to see.

[David]

Like the outlay happened.

[Ben]

Right.

[Griffin]

It was like we have Star wars at home. Except it was. You have Star wars in your memory.

[Ben]

Yeah, exactly. Right. You can watch it whenever you want.

[Griffin]

That's why we paid for it the first time. So it goes in there.

[Ben]

No, I, I saw Inland Empire the first time. I. The first and third times I saw Inland Empire were two great, great experiences with movies. Yeah, I mean, when I, when I, when we were talking about David lynch and. And you said, are you interested in any of these? And I was like, I would do Inland Empire. Part of what I was thinking was I have a memory of the first time I saw this movie as being so fucking great. And since I agreed to do it, I was like, well, now I have to do my due diligence, I should rewatch it. I haven't seen it since it came out in the theaters.

[Griffin]

The fabled third time.

[Ben]

And I saw it the second time with friends, which was good. And then the third time was, well, I can't wait to talk about the third time. Because the third time was really special. And I related to the movie in a way that I've never related to another movie. And for me it took the movie to a whole new level where all of a sudden like, this is my, this is my favorite thing David lynch has ever done.

[David]

Then it's great that we have you here on what podcast?

[Griffin]

Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

[David]

I'm David.

[Griffin]

It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. This is a miniseries on the films of David Lynch. It is called Twin Pods Fire Cast With Me.

[Ben]

Wow.

[Griffin]

But I should say it is a miniseries on the films and television series of David lynch, because today we are talking about, to date, his final theatrical film, his final feature film. But this miniseries is obviously far from over.

[Ben]

Wait, are you guys doing Twin Peaks?

[David]

Of course.

[Griffin]

The whole.

[David]

All of it kind of can't not. You can't do David lynch and not do Twin Peaks, you know?

[Ben]

Are you doing one episode per episode?

[Griffin]

No, we are doing. No.

[David]

Six total episodes on Twin Peaks, plus.

[Griffin]

Wow. Plus Fire Walk With Me.

[David]

That's right. That's right. So seven. I suppose you guys are doing a.

[Ben]

Complete rewatch of the whole. That is correct.

[Griffin]

We have a time watch for me. First time watch.

[David]

I mean, and for Ben. For most of Twin Peaks.

[Dan]

For most of.

[David]

Right.

[Ben]

Do you know what I have here, Griffin? Well, we'll get to this.

[David]

Okay.

[Griffin]

We'll get to that.

[Ben]

Okay. But I have. I have someone else's recollections of the first time they ever watched Twin Peaks when it aired.

[Griffin]

Wow.

[Ben]

So we can get into that.

[David]

We should talk about that.

[Ben]

Compare notes.

[David]

But yes, we are doing season one, season two, and the Return. We're splitting the Return into four episodes. It's quite a dense.

[Griffin]

It's interesting because any other. I guess, look, when we did Wachowski.

[David]

And Cameron Crowe, we did do their.

[Griffin]

The Wachowskis and Cameron Crow. And at those two miniseries, the most recent project they had done was tv. And we did the seasons of their now largely forgotten TV shows, and then we kind of went, we never want to do TV ever again. And so we made that a rule. And obviously the Wachowskis and Camera Crow hasn't made another thing, but the Wachowskis did. This is such a bizarre example of, like, with other people, we'd be like, well, the series ends with Inland Empire. TV doesn't count, right?

[David]

Yeah, but I mean, obviously it's also. Look, we did the Wachowskis and Cameron Crowe, and they didn't even, like, direct every episode of. But obviously when Peaks, the Return is all directed by David Lynch. He made it all, and it won.

[Ben]

An award at a film festival. Right. Like at Venice or something. They gave it to him. Or it was on screen as best movie of the year.

[David]

We'll talk about it.

[Griffin]

But.

[David]

Right. Some people now try to sort of claim it as a movie. I used to be very resistant to that. Now that I know how he made it, I'm a little more open to it. He didn't quite make it as traditional television.

[Griffin]

Look, we're doing four episodes on the Return, and one of them will obviously be entirely devoted to whether or not it's okay to log it on Letterbox. We'll spend a full episode litigating that it's an interesting conversation.

[David]

People love that kind of film analysis.

[Ben]

Can you not put TV shows on letterboxd or miniseries? It has.

[David]

David.

[Ben]

What?

[David]

It's. It's. It's a contentious topic amongst. Oh, fidgety nerds.

[Griffin]

We're. We're. I mean, we're doing the bit now. Largely, people are not so annoying about this.

[David]

Largely, television is not on letterboxdog because it's quite unwieldy. But certain projects are. Projects such as Twin Peaks, the Return, that.

[Ben]

That's allowed to be on letterbox.

[David]

Well, allowed is a funny. It's a. You know, if you can smoosh stuff into their database, then, you know, it's not like letterboxd has total control over.

[Griffin]

People still fight this with the urgency of, like, Donald Trump is lowering this. The esteem of the Office. He is setting a precedent. We will never be able to revert.

[David]

If I cannot log Twin peaks the return 50 times on Letterbox, you know, why am I even.

[Ben]

But letterboxd is mostly for feature films. It does. Can't, like, go and look up, like, here's an interesting CSI New York on Letterboxd. No, it's not like IMDb where everything correct. Okay, got it.

[Griffin]

But here's an interesting thing. On Letterbox, you cannot log Twin Peaks. You can log Twin Peaks, the European cut of the pilot.

[David]

You can. Which was sort of a theatrical.

[Ben]

Oh, right.

[David]

Yeah, yeah, yes. Northwest Passage, it's called.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

The Pilot.

[Griffin]

So usually there's that kind of linear. But then short films are on there and TV movies are on there, and it starts to get sick. Slippery. That's not what we're talking about.

[David]

And you love Twin Peaks. But we're not here to discuss today.

[Griffin]

We're talking about Inland Empire, his last feature film. And as of the time we're recording this, there's been a lot of hand wringing recently about him saying that he, due to health, cannot be on set making a feature Film away from his home, which people took as a retirement notice. And then he put out a press release saying, I am not retired. I will never retire.

[David]

He also said he had quit smoking and then lovingly described the experience of setting tobacco on fire.

[Ben]

Setting them on fire made me want to spark up.

[Griffin]

We were texting, I was like, this is the best argument for cigarettes I've ever read. They sound incredible.

[David]

While he is saying, like, I have not touched a cigarette in two years.

[Griffin]

I barely can leave my home. If I take three steps, I almost crumble.

[David]

I shouldn't laugh, obviously.

[Ben]

I think, I think the press release ended with the immortal sentence, I'm filled with happiness and I will never retire. Yeah, I mean, it's like so glorious.

[David]

Yes. But clearly, you know, he may not make a traditional feature film again. We don't know. He's 78 years old and he does have emphysema. And who knows what the future holds for David Lynch.

[Griffin]

Let's congratulate Ben Hosley on quitting smoking. By the way, I saw Ben around the mic. Yeah, that press release hit you hard.

[Dan]

It did. It was hard to read because here's the thing, it's a terrible habit, but damn, is it fucking cool.

[Ben]

Can you imagine how many cigarettes he smokes?

[Griffin]

That's. No one makes it look cooler than him.

[David]

When it was like David Lynch's emphysema, I was like, that's not. That's like saying like, the sky is blue. Like, I've never not seen a picture of that man. Like, he's always smoking.

[Griffin]

Have any of you watched that? David lynch, the Art Life documentary?

[David]

Yeah, I saw that.

[Griffin]

Yes. Right, there's the. I believe the opening credits play out over a static like 3 minute shot of him just like lovingly smoking a cigarette while sitting back and looking at the painting.

[Ben]

Is that the.

[Griffin]

That he just finished? And I'm just like, right. This is the fundamental image of him as a guy.

[Ben]

Is that the thing where he. I was thinking about this when I was thinking about Inland Empire. He's, he's, he's like, if you want to know if a work of art is finished, you take a stick and you tie a ball to the stick on a piece of string and you point it at the painting. The stick will tell you if the painting is finished. And then he does it and you just walk. Is that what you're talking about, that thing? Because I know I've seen a video of that.

[Griffin]

Is it in that thing or is that just another. There's so many.

[David]

He's making rice. Is that what he's making or.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Fried egg or something like, you know, he has his cooking videos. I don't know, man.

[Griffin]

Look, he's the king of content. The man's been putting out 10. He's been pitching tent for decades. Our guest today returning to the show from going deep with David Rhys. A show I mistitled recently in an episode.

[Ben]

Oh, really?

[Griffin]

I combined it with how to with John Wilson.

[Ben]

I'll take it. I need all the help I can get. That was it. His was a hit show.

[Griffin]

Is. Is I have to ask this every time you're on the show. Is it streaming anywhere? Is it back anywhere? Do we know?

[Ben]

I think you can watch. I think you can watch some of it on Amazon.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[Ben]

And some of it on YouTube.

[Griffin]

I'll take that.

[Ben]

Yeah. David Reese and Dicktown starring Griffin Dicktown. Yeah, well.

[Griffin]

And starring David Reese and John hutch.

[Ben]

Right.

[David]

Season one is on YouTube for sure.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[Ben]

Okay.

[Griffin]

Thank God.

[David]

Not sure about season two. David Reese is here. Hi, David. How are you doing?

[Ben]

I'm good. It's nice to be in. It's nice to be face to face with all you guys in the room after almost two years more. Well, last time was his wedding.

[Griffin]

Yes, but not seeing you in person. It's been two years. I thought you were.

[David]

Season two is on Amazon. It's all on Amazon.

[Ben]

Great purchasable episode.

[Griffin]

In person, I believe has been five years. Is that possible?

[Ben]

I think the last time we did one, it was I was on a zoom.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Ben]

Yeah. Yeah. So it's been a long time. Whatever. The last time. Yeah.

[Griffin]

A sight for sore eyes.

[Ben]

You too. I like your mustache.

[Griffin]

Hey, you know what? I was shaving and I was like trimming around and I decided to keep the stash and I was like, the test of this is going to be if re approves.

[Ben]

I love it.

[Griffin]

That was my thought. I was like, if this works with David, I'm holding onto it for a bit.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

If he doesn't like it or he doesn't mention it. Gone.

[Ben]

I'm into it.

[Griffin]

Thank you.

[Ben]

I'm into it.

[Griffin]

Thank you.

[David]

So the last one you did in person with us, was it Spirited Away?

[Griffin]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David]

Right.

[Ben]

And you were in a different studio than I remember. You were in Manhattan.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[David]

And since then, right. You've come on for 28 days later. And something else. Right.

[Griffin]

There are a couple episodes that almost happened. Didn't. If we want to fucking crack open the books. Mamy vice was a thought.

[David]

Oh, yeah, yeah. That's Right.

[Griffin]

You were going to do one of the Buster Keaton episodes.

[David]

Oh, that's right. But then we. Then you wanted 28 days later, so we. Right.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Yeah. Right. Yeah. Because I live kind of near Buster Keaton's old studios.

[David]

And you love that guy.

[Ben]

I do, yeah.

[David]

I mean, so do I.

[Griffin]

So do I. Nah.

[David]

You don't think he's so great.

[Ben]

Oh, you weren't. You weren't into him.

[David]

No, he's. He spirited us doing Buster Keaton. He's a huge fan.

[Griffin]

Yeah. But I'm fascinated that. Yeah. You had only seen this once. It had a massive impact on you. And then in your two revisits in prep for the podcast, it grew. So the first half.

[Ben]

Yeah. So I brought a couple documents with carefully organized.

[David]

Classic David. Yeah, A couple documents. Big notebook filled with notes.

[Ben]

You know, I got to show up with all my paperwork.

[David]

I love it.

[Griffin]

It looks like an evidence layout. Like when you take all the evidence out of the joker's pocket.

[Ben]

This movie is weird.

[David]

Now you say you were at the bodega at 5:30pm that's what you're saying.

[Ben]

So I have three documents. Why don't I list the documents and you can tell me in which order you would like me to present my case.

[Griffin]

Fantastic.

[Ben]

The first is a green spiral notebook filled with, I guess, six pages of. Of sloppy notes that represent my reaction and recording of the second time.

[David]

Okay.

[Ben]

I watched Inland Empire.

[Griffin]

Can you. Can we time?

[Ben]

That was last week.

[Griffin]

Okay. Okay. Wow.

[David]

Last week was the second time.

[Ben]

Yeah, Second and third times I watched it for a second time. And then among my friends, a particular decision was made. And then two days later, we watched it for a third and Transcendence.

[David]

Fascinating.

[Griffin]

We got a great story on deck.

[David]

You hadn't seen it before?

[Griffin]

No, I watched it.

[David]

This was the one you'd never seen?

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Exhibit B is. So I saw. I saw it when it was released theatrically in North Carolina. I was in Chapel Hill in the spring of 2007. I think technically it came out in 2006.

[David]

It came out December 06, but a slow fall release.

[Griffin]

So.

[Ben]

Yeah, so I saw it on. I have the date. I saw it on 10 March 2007 at the Carolina Theater in Durham, a.

[Griffin]

Day after my sister's ninth birthday.

[Ben]

The Carolina Theater is a grand old theater. Yeah, it was gorgeous. And it was the perfect place to see this movie because it was like 10% capacity. You know, it felt like it's like.

[David]

You'Re at Club Silencia.

[Ben]

Exactly. Right?

[David]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And I went in absolutely Cold. It's one of my favorite memories of going into a movie. Absolutely Cold. All I knew was David lynch had a new movie out. I'd seen Mulholland Drive, right. Probably once in the theater and once on VHS or dvd. I like David lynch, as exhibit C will point out. I will prove. I beg your pardon. I have a long standing relationship with David Lynch.

[Griffin]

I feel like we lead with exhibit C because it feels like that's the earliest point.

[Ben]

Oh, you want to go chronolog?

[Griffin]

Okay, forget it.

[Ben]

B, Forget. Okay.

[Griffin]

Because we often ask our guest, what's your history with X? With this? Right.

[Ben]

Okay. Exhibit A. Renumbered. Yeah. Holy. Objection.

[David]

Object.

[Ben]

Approach the pitch.

[David]

The court will come to order.

[Ben]

I mean, fellas, I'm about to set it off with exhibit A. This is the May 18, 1990 edition of the Proconian. The official newspaper of Chapel Hill High School.

[David]

Wow.

[Griffin]

Let's say, also perfectly preserved.

[Ben]

It is called the Proconian because it discusses the pros and cons of life at Chapel Hill High.

[Griffin]

That is a cool fucking name.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Why is it 1931?

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah. It goes way back.

[David]

Wait, so you're allowed to be like, hey, I got a con this week. I don't like doing homework. Well, that.

[Ben]

On the front, I mean, that's kind.

[Griffin]

Of a regular column, right? It's a revolving door of who takes the man.

[Ben]

I mean. I mean, on the front page, one of my buddies, Matt, he wrote an article about how the Chapel Hill High School counseling department. Was encouraging students to limit their college admission entrance attempts to five. They wanted to cap the number of colleges you apply to. And the article goes on to say, like, that was really good. I reread. So I reread this whole issue the other night. Because I hadn't thought of. You know, I haven't thought about this in, what, 34 years?

[Griffin]

Have you kept every issue from your years there?

[Ben]

Well, Griffin, I kept every issue in which I was the movie critic for the Proconian.

[David]

So what's the. Can you tell me the year again? I'm sorry.

[Ben]

Sorry. Yeah, it's 1990. So this is spring of my senior year of high school.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

Okay. Senior year in high school's a daily newspaper, right?

[Ben]

You guys were twice daily. It was a morning and evening edition. Yeah. And it's still on paper? No, it was every Friday. I think it was a weekly paper.

[David]

Weekly is for high school paper.

[Griffin]

It's nice also to give you the weekend to sort of really sit with, Digest everything.

[Ben]

Yeah, totally. So I had an entertainment Column. It was called the Three Bean Salad of Entertainment. The three beans of the salad were movies, TV shows and music. Those were three of my interests.

[Griffin]

The three great beans of society.

[Ben]

And like every fucking know it all high school boy, I just used this platform to announce hyperbolic justifications for why the Minutemen are the best band that has ever existed. Or, you know, whatever, Just justify all my tastes.

[David]

Did you have an editor? Like, how much control?

[Ben]

Well, the editor was my high school girlfriend, so. Actually, this sounds like some antics. Yeah. Now what's. What's interesting about this edition is that.

[Griffin]

I like, yell a lot.

[Ben]

Remember when? Remember? So remember on Spirited Away when I brought in, like, one of my favorite pieces of criticism, 6 out of 5.

[Griffin]

Stars in the history of the.

[David]

And you checked with him and he maintains.

[Ben]

Yeah, exactly. Just such a great. Such a great. Also, it's another well preserved piece of newspaper criticism. Well, the wonderful thing you'll remember is that that was six out of five stars. Well, now, when I paid close attention to page 10 of the Prakanian, where the. Where the column title is, it doesn't say three Bean Salad of Entertainment. It says four Bean Salad of Entertainment. And then the column begins, as Burger King says, sometimes you got to break the rules. So I broke a few.

[David]

Did Cooper King say that?

[Ben]

I think that was a thing back in the 90s. Yeah. Okay, so I broke a. I broke a few rules, ordered a Whopper, and changed the name of my column. What is the Fourth bean? Because now, of course, it used to be the Three bean Salad of Entertainment, but now there's a fourth bean. Right. So like Nigel Andrews, unknowingly, of course, I was like, let me acknowledge up front what you're all thinking, which is, what happened to the Three Bean Salad of Entertainment? Why is it now a four bean salad of entertainment?

[David]

We've all gotten used to it.

[Ben]

It's all snowball.

[Griffin]

We've all committed to a prism through which we understand.

[Ben]

Exactly.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

What the fourth bean was. This week I decided to review all the comics in the Chapel Hill newspaper.

[David]

Oh.

[Ben]

So I added them as a fourth bean. The fourth bean is. Is the funny. Yeah, the funny pages.

[David]

Take on Curtis or whatever.

[Ben]

Yeah, Exactly. Prince Valiant, two stars. The Born Loser, 4.5 stars. Kathy, six stars.

[David]

Wait, you just bodied Kathy out of the room? Kathy's funny. She likes.

[Ben]

Do you want to hear my review? I mean, I haven't looked at Kathy in a long time. And you have to remember I was a high school boy and I was a total asshole. So it was probably Some misogyny. But here's the review of Kathy, Kathy by Kathy. How do you pronounce her last name, guys?

[David]

White.

[Ben]

Geis White. I gave it 0.6 stars. It says, oh, my. Here's the basic Kathy strip. Panel one, Kathy sits behind her desk. Panel two, she says, so you're doing this?

[David]

You're cold reading this?

[Ben]

Yeah, I haven't looked at this. Panel two, she says, it's so awful. Panel two, she says, I don't look good in a bathing suit. Panel three, mass hysteria. Kathy yells, oh. Panel four, Kathy looks guilty. Lines of exasperation shoot from her head. Kathy says, I need chocolate. There. Now you never have to read the stupid strip again. What an.

[David]

I mean, but.

[Ben]

I mean, that reflect, you know, that reflects my sense, you know, where I was, where I was at the time.

[David]

That was where America was on Kathy. Yeah, Kathy blazed a lot of trails. I'm very pro Kathy.

[Griffin]

That's kind of like the lights, camera, Jackson Girls trip review.

[David]

Oh, yeah. What was he. What happened with him?

[Griffin]

No, it wasn't that. What was the one Book Smart where he said, my. My grandmother always said, if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

And they just stares down the camera for a minute in silence.

[David]

What was your favorite funny page?

[Ben]

Like, what gets the highest Snuffy Smith. Snuffy Smith by Fred Laswell. Five stars.

[David]

I think of Stuffy Smith is like the sort of gasoline inhaling, like, absolute nonsense. Like, where it's like, Barney Google is a little too erudite for people. We need a yokel character to kind of like, bring the labs.

[Ben]

Can you.

[Griffin]

What was the case for Stuffy Smith?

[Ben]

Snuffy Smith? The art, especially the Sunday pages. The art was beautiful.

[David]

Yeah. Stuffy Smith is kind of a cool style.

[Ben]

It looked really, really good. It was just silly. I mean, it was like one of those things when you're in high school. And I think it was. I don't think it was a deliberate decision, but it's like you and your friends are like, let's all get really into Snuffy Smith and say, this is the best cartoon. And that'll be. Our thing is like, we're the Snuffy Smith gang.

[David]

I'm really sorry to do this. I know this is a big, dense movie. I just have to know what other funny pages you reviewed. Just. Just the names and I just want to see if any of the others.

[Ben]

I'll run through all the. All the. I'll give you the titles and the stars okay, we'll do that. Prince Valiant, two stars. Frank and Ernest, four stars. Out Outland one star. The Phantom, 3.6 stars. Calvin and Hobbs, four stars. The Born Loser, 4.5 stars. Kathy Point six stars. The Far Side, 3.4 stars. The Family Circus, 2.5 stars. According to Guinness, 3.7 stars. Peanuts, 4.6 stars. Snuffy Smith, five stars.

[David]

I mean, you're putting Snuffy Smith over Peanuts and Calvin and Hobbes. You're being a bit of a high school contrarian.

[Ben]

I was a high school.

[David]

Right. I know at that point every week.

[Ben]

Where I could just do whatever I want, you know, it's like, I mean, wait till I read this fucking review of Twin Peaks. I mean, if you think this is. This is queuing up him reviewing Twins.

[Griffin]

And by the way, we've already established it's a dense movie we have to talk about. We haven't even gotten to the Twin Peaks thing. I just want to read quickly a Snuffy Smith script.

[David]

A from, like recent.

[Griffin]

No, it's from 86.

[David]

Okay. Because I believe Barney Google and Stuffy Smith still runs. And you read it and you're like, who on earth even knows what this is about?

[Ben]

Well, like what? This is the original strip, I think was from the early 20th century. It's.

[David]

Right.

[Ben]

And Bernie Goul is gone. Like he hasn't been a part of it in like a hundred years.

[David]

I think it's literally still called though, Barney, Google and Snuffy Smith.

[Ben]

Oh, I wonder.

[David]

Yeah, but okay, well, read, please read me a snuffy, maybe from 06.

[Griffin]

I'm having a hard time reading the handwriting on the date on it, but it's. They're playing poker. Snuffy and his friend. I. Excuse me, I don't know the character's name. And he says balls of fire. Snuffy, I'm tired of all your cheating. Put up your dukes. Your spelled Y O R. Of course it's only a two panel strip.

[David]

Yeah. Snuffy Smith is usually two panels, which I'm starting to.

[Griffin]

No, I'm starting to see David's case here, which is There's a cleanness to it.

[Ben]

It's so clean. It's so freaking clean. It's like ammonia.

[Griffin]

Balls of fire. Snuffy, I'm tired of all.

[David]

You're harmful.

[Griffin]

Put up your dukes. Right.

[Ben]

Toxic. Yeah.

[Griffin]

And then second panel, Snuffy has dropped the cards and he's holding up two pennants, pendants that say jmu. He's putting up his dukes.

[David]

Oh, wow, that's so bad.

[Ben]

That's, like, more referential.

[David]

Can I read you today's Snuffy?

[Ben]

Are they still making Snuffy?

[Griffin]

We have to talk about the movie after we talk about twins.

[David]

Snuffy is talking to. I think his friend is called Doc. Snuffy says, why should one feller get to decide everything?

[Griffin]

Oh, wow. David's making a choice in the voice.

[David]

And Doc says, you know your rights, Snuffy. Okay, panel two. Doc is flipping three coins in the air and saying, I'll flip Lincoln, Jefferson, and Washington.

[Ben]

That's good. That's good. That's a good comic. I will defend that one. That's good.

[David]

Don't really get it, but I sort of.

[Griffin]

I really get it.

[Ben]

Yeah, that's. Yeah.

[David]

It's just like the logic of Snuffy saying, I don't like how one person decides everything, which I think Snuff's trying to talk about, like, executive power could be. And Doc is interpreting it as, like, the coin.

[Ben]

It's actually kind of deep. It's actually kind of awesome.

[David]

The president on the coin is kind of making the call. Right, Right.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

So he's going to flip three coins now. I don't know how flipping three coins is really going to help him make any decisions is the only thing I'll say.

[Griffin]

Well, sure, but if there were a sense of closure, then the strip would end. There has to be a yearning. There has to be something unresolved or Snuffy.

[David]

John Rose is the current.

[Ben]

Yeah. Fred Laswell must be long, long retired, if not deceased.

[David]

Yeah. But anyway, it's just really funny that you. You put Snuffy on top.

[Griffin]

Back to the Perkanian 4B.

[David]

John Rose has been doing it since 1998.

[Ben]

Oh, wow.

[David]

So I was 12 years old. Yeah.

[Ben]

Yeah. All right. So in the same. Same issue of the Proconian, I reviewed Twin Peaks, which was airing at the time. This I have reread. This is a. It's a tough read. I mean, this really.

[David]

Reading your high school writing.

[Griffin]

I was going to say there's a precedent for it on this podcast, and you couldn't come off worse than I did. So please proceed.

[Ben]

Right. I'm not going to read all of this review. I will just read the thing that I remember being so proud of when I wrote it. I can't believe David lynch recovered from this cutting remark. The critic says, I don't like Twin Peaks. It moves too slowly for television. It's pretentious to the point of being overtly obnoxious. Director David lynch has not changed the face of television for the 1990s. He's just made a tired genre more surreal. That's no great feat.

[David]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Wow.

[David]

I see. I thought you were going to be like, hey guys, check out this crazy show on abc, Twin Peaks. But you're like, no, no, no. Storm is, you know, like a little.

[Ben]

Armin White up in here. Like, oh, everyone's talking about this great show, the liberal elites. It actually is kind of boring and.

[Griffin]

Weird masses are falling for your.

[David]

Snuffy Smith is actually the best shit.

[Ben]

Some contrarian. Yeah.

[David]

You know, like where you're like the common man. The simple tales, you know.

[Ben]

But, but what's interesting, and I had forgotten about until I reread this review was at the time I had seen Eraserhead because so what I say, oh God, I talk about some other stuff and then I say Eraserhead is weird and it represents lynch at his best. Eraserhead is actually extremely bizarre, hot take and has some of the more disturbing images in the history of American film.

[David]

Right, so you're like Twin Peaks too. Sanded down.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[David]

Right.

[Ben]

But the weirdness in Eraserhead is not without purpose. It's a twisted sort of symbolism and makes the film agonizingly personal. Twin Peaks is not very personal. It's actually quite alienating. Anyway, so I had seen Eraserhead.

[Griffin]

Do you know when in the arc of Twin Peaks this review came out, like, how much of the show were you commenting on?

[Ben]

Well, if it's spring of 1990, I think it was probably within the first few weeks. I don't remember when it actually.

[Griffin]

First season is eight episodes that started late. Like it was like March to May or March to April or something.

[David]

That sounds right.

[Griffin]

I'm just curious if you're like reviewing the pilot or if you're probably the.

[Ben]

Pilot and maybe one other episode. I honestly don't remember.

[Griffin]

Wow. Okay. Yeah, okay.

[Ben]

But I know I watched it. I mean, I would have. I would have actually watched an episode.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

The only time I. The only, only time I behaved unethically as a, as a column entertainment columnist was I actually reviewed a GWAR concert before I went to it because we had to get the thing into press and GWAR was playing that night. But I had seen GWAR so many times. I was like, I know what's gonna happen. So I just reviewed it before actually.

[Griffin]

Wow.

[Ben]

Seeing that particular. Yeah, yeah.

[David]

A little different from a long running TV show.

[Griffin]

I tried to just talk about embarrassing high school newspaper things.

[David]

Yeah. Cause there's definitely enough. No, like History of you saying like stuff on mike or in paper that might.

[Ben]

So were you a high school movie critic?

[Griffin]

I. I had a. I had a column called Griffin's top five that was. It was usually more of a. It was a humor piece. It was a. I'd come up with a weird top five list.

[Ben]

Uh huh.

[Griffin]

Maybe it was top 10. It was top 10. It was top ten. But there was. They would, I feel like at the end of the year they'd ask a couple people to do end of year movie list and you'd have like four competing ones. Of course, on the page. I wasn't the regular movie critic.

[Ben]

Right, I see.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And you wanted to put on that sex tape and they wouldn't let you.

[Griffin]

Yeah. You know, Lucretia Martell's the holy Grail at number three. Paris Hilton sex tape. Number 10, I believe was my original list. And they wisely said, absolutely not. David, it's February, which means it is my birthday month. And all I ask for as a present this year is a robust slate of new theatrical motion picture releases. And that our listeners perhaps use our sponsor Regal and their Regal Unlimited program to see such releases. Yeah.

[David]

What do we got?

[Griffin]

Heart Eyes.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

From our friends, an original horror film directed by our friend, past and future guest. Overdue to have him back on the pod. Josh Rubin.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[David]

Well, he's been busy making films.

[Griffin]

He has. Which is wild.

[David]

And he's got a new one. Heart Eyes. That's. That looks really exciting.

[Griffin]

Love hurts. I would argue one of the weirdest.

[David]

Kehyu Kwan action movies.

[Griffin]

Movies to be pushing the fact that it stars two Academy award winners in history. All of the marketing is Academy Award winner Kikwan. Academy Award winner Ariana DeBose. And you're like, yeah, right. I guess so.

[David]

That's very exciting. You've also.

[Griffin]

Well, let's acknowledge that someone's coming.

[David]

Hail to the chief.

[Griffin]

Stomp Stomp.

[David]

President Red Hulk.

[Griffin]

Let me check my glasses here. I'm used to Hulks being green, but this one's red. Finally, finally we can stop talking about Red Hulk because we'll be able to see him and vote for him. Yes.

[David]

And also opening up. You know who's gonna possibly kick Red Hulk's butt? The monkey Paddington in Peru.

[Griffin]

Oh sure. But can we look pants and Peru. We're all obviously excited to eat some marmalade sandwiches with Paddington. Although I'm a little worried about how they've maintained with the long distance flight to Peru underneath a hat.

[David]

What's awesome about all this is that there's lots of interesting different kinds of movies in theaters that you can go see.

[Griffin]

And with Regal Unlimited, the whole point is you sign up and seeing three, four, five, six of those movies is easy and affordable.

[David]

And I find that once you have the Regal Unlimited, right, you know, sort of the option of basically like, let me pop over my theater, I have free more.

[Griffin]

That's what's nice. You do it more.

[David]

Go see the movies.

[Griffin]

Go see the movies.

[David]

Sign up now in the Regal app.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Or at the link in the description in our show notes and use code blank check to get 20% off your three month subscription. And then you're going to be in the Crown Club. You're going to get rewards. You're going to build up points and.

[Griffin]

Get free popcorns and sodas, 25% off.

[David]

Candy on Tuesdays, 50% off popcorn, discounted ticket.

[Griffin]

Go into the Regal Crown Club website. And as I said, it's a little deep, it's a little buried in here. There is a section where you can redeem your points for old promotional movie memorabilia like redone socks.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

Follow the link in the show notes, go to the Regal app, click on the unlimited banner and then follow the instructions to sign up and enter promo code blank check when prompted to receive your discount. And look, I'm just going to say it again, David. Signing up for Regal Unlimited or maybe gifting a membership to a moviegoer in your life.

[David]

Sure.

[Griffin]

Great way to support the show. This is, this is a dream advertiser. Yes, A dream partner for us. We want to keep this going. We think it could benefit everybody, especially the movies. David.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

You know what I love?

[David]

How about quints? New year, new chance for new clothes. Okay, well, listen to me. I think everyone needs to try and refresh their liquid quality pieces but stay on budget. I think everyone needs Quince's mango Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $60. I genuinely love quints. I think I've talked about this on the show before, but I am quint pilled.

[Ben]

Right?

[David]

I be loading up quints and buying some nice soft shirts and good fitting pants all the time. They've got some activewear performance tees, tech shorts. They've got, you know, soft shirts that are warm, which I've been really favoring in the winter. And you know, they're priced 50 to 80% less than the similar brands because they partner directly with the top factories. No middlemen.

[Griffin]

Perfect.

[David]

And they only work with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices.

[Griffin]

No sharks.

[David]

Anyway. So yeah, if you want to Upgrade your closet this year without the upgraded price tag. You should go to quint.com check for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U I n c e.com/check to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com/check by.

[Griffin]

Anyway. David lynch, great American artist.

[David]

So you liked Twin. You didn't like Twin Peaks as a young man? Did you come around on Twin Peaks or on David lynch generally?

[Ben]

I think before the Showtime thing started, I. I think I rewatched all of season one. I don't think I've ever seen all of season two of Twin Peaks. I think I just bailed at some point.

[Griffin]

It feels like everyone does.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

And I are currently working the same.

[Dan]

Thing with season two.

[David]

And.

[Dan]

Okay, there is the certain point, I think, where we all kind of drop off with.

[Ben]

Right. And I think that's because he wasn't involved as involved in it or something. Or he was. Or the other guy wasn't involved or something like that. Right.

[David]

And it was a little more chaotic. I think there's much to love about season two, but it's hard to feel motivated to watch it, especially before knowing the Return is coming where it's kind of like, well, I know this didn't really get to kind of resolve itself artistically like, blah, blah, blah. But it is worth watching season two if you ever have the time to get to the final episode, which is quite amazing.

[Ben]

I think I have watched the final episode.

[David]

I think a lot of people just skipped ahead, which is understandable.

[Ben]

And I've never seen the Twin Peaks movie Firewalk with Me.

[Griffin]

Oh, interesting. I would say it's quite good.

[Ben]

I've heard that. Yeah. But I have watched the Return, and that was a really special experience.

[Griffin]

Do you feel like Fire Walk with Me? Is that the only lynch movie you haven't seen? Possibly.

[Ben]

No, I haven't seen a number of them. I realized coming over here, I've never seen the Elephant Man.

[Griffin]

My favorite.

[Ben]

I think when I was a kid. I think when I was a kid, the Elephant man was always on hbo. I could be misremembering. So I don't want to say, like, oh, I watched it like through osmosis. But I think it presented as so heavy and intimidating.

[Griffin]

Sure.

[Ben]

That childhood David couldn't handle it, maybe was just like, that's. I'll never be grown up enough to watch the Elephant Man.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

It's in black and white. Like, what? So I've never seen that. And I And I've never seen the straight story.

[Griffin]

I would.

[David]

You would? I think you would. Really like. Great story.

[Ben]

Really? Oh, yeah. I'm excited.

[David]

I mean, you can watch it on Disney plus.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

If you have.

[Ben]

Oh, really?

[David]

Yes, yes.

[Ben]

And I think. I think I've seen all the other ones. I saw Eraserhead in middle school because I had this. I had this great book. It was called Cult Movies by Danny Perry. You guys ever heard of that book? He published three of them. And in the 80s, I have heard of this.

[David]

Yeah.

[Ben]

If you wanted to know about weird movies, he published these three collections of his, like, idiosyncratic personal essays and reviews of cult movies. And I, like, turned me on to, like, a lot of amazing movies. And he wrote about Eraserhead and included some stills in the essay. I think there's a photo of the baby. And my friends and I are like, well, we. We definitely got to see this movie. And also at the time in the 80s, I lived in a college town. So, like, I think at the record store, I think they had Eraserhead posters. You know, the iconic image of what's his name with the hair backlit. So I think it was like an image. It was like it had a currency like we talked about. You want to see that? Yeah.

[Griffin]

In our raceheart episode. That. It's just like, if you're someone who's kind of trying to find the subculture in any way.

[Ben]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Griffin]

In art, that's just an image that somehow gets exposed to you at a young age.

[Ben]

Right.

[Griffin]

I remember having. I had an Entertainment Weekly issue that I want to say was from 02 or 03. That was like their definitive ranking of the top 25 cult movies of all time. And I probably kept that issue for 15 years.

[Ben]

Yeah. It's like those books I had. Yeah, yeah, the cult movie books.

[Griffin]

Right. But like, to get that issue when I was in high school and be like, well, here's the guide. If I watch these 25 movies, right. I have some sense of, like, the weird corners of film and then I can go deeper from there right in that direction.

[Ben]

How am I going to get a copy of El Topo and watch it?

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Because that sounds really.

[Griffin]

Yeah. When a lot of this stuff felt like Superstar, the Karen Carpenter story, was on that list.

[Ben]

Oh, wow.

[Griffin]

And they mentioned in the write up.

[Ben]

You can't watch watch it makes you.

[David]

Want to watch it.

[Ben]

At the time that I was doing all this cult movie research, remember, there was no. There were no DVDs. There was obviously no streaming. It was just like VHS, like. And maybe they'll have it, maybe they won't. So Eraserhead was something that we really wanted to see. And I remember, like, we had a slumber party. It was like, we got it. We got it. Tonight is Eraserhead Night. And then we watched it, and it was great.

[David]

You know, it is, to me, the definitive cult movie.

[Griffin]

Yeah. Yeah. So aside from your distaste at the time for Twin Peaks.

[David]

Yeah. Well, you just got it. You know, you saw through the.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Through the fog.

[Ben]

I saw through society's lies. Yeah.

[Griffin]

You were otherwise pretty in the bag for lynch, it sounds like.

[Ben]

Well, I think for years. I mean, I only knew him from a racerhead. Like, I don't think I saw Wild at Heart until I was in my 20s.

[David]

You probably didn't see Lost Highway.

[Ben]

I only saw Lost highway last year when it was in Revival.

[David]

Pretty good.

[Ben]

I saw it.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Yeah, pretty good. And Mulholland Drive I saw in the theater when it came out and then maybe once or twice afterwards on DVD or something.

[David]

So let's take you to. In Dune.

[Ben]

And Dune I never saw.

[David]

Check it out.

[Griffin]

I can't believe Hodgman has let you get away with that.

[Ben]

Well, he summarized it for me like, 50 times. But, yeah, I remember once we were on tour and we were at a. We were performing in Alabama in this great venue called the Bottle Tree. It doesn't exist anymore. And when it was over and we were hanging out at the bar, they were playing David Lynch's Dune in the background. And it was just like. I've never seen someone struggle as much as, like, John trying to be sociable and make and. And talk to other people while also just like, his eyes are watching a movie 80 times. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But I've never seen that either.

[David]

Okay.

[Ben]

It just looks like. I don't know, man.

[Griffin]

Okay, so when.

[Ben]

Gnarly.

[Griffin]

When you walk into Inland Empire in.

[Ben]

Chapel hill in 2007.

[Griffin]

2007, you're not like, David lynch is my God. I'm obsessive. I'm encyclopedic. He's made a couple things that you love deeply.

[Ben]

Yeah. Yeah. I really, really liked Mulholland Drive. And I think that is, like, he was just in the pocket on that one. Like, he was in the sweet spot. And, you know, there's just moments. There's moments in that movie that are just so affecting. Um, just like, I. I think one. I think the thing. I think one thing that David lynch does better than anyone, he does it in the final scene. Of the Twin Peaks. The Return. He does it with Naomi Watts masturbating in Mulholland Drive. And he does it. Inland Empire is a sense of almost just like cosmic desolation.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Ben]

Just an utter reduced to rubble.

[David]

Someone who has been reduced.

[Ben]

Like a hollow feeling that is so haunting. Like it woke, like when we finished watching the Return. Like it woke me up that night that. When that. That shot of him where he's like, what, what's the line? What year is this against an absolutely black sky? They must have CG'd the sky to make it just totally matte black. And the same with Naomi Watts in Mulholland Drive when it's like you're back in reality. And the brick. She's masturbating in that brick wall is like. It's like going in and out of focus or whatever it is. It's just like.

[David]

Yeah, I think that's really rude because I usually jerk off to walls. You know, it's.

[Griffin]

Well, they have the right curves. If it's that kind of like what is almost like a stucco kind of thing.

[Ben]

Yeah, it's. I think he's so good at that. And it's also a feeling that. Anyway, so when I went to see Inland Empire, it was like, I like David Lynch. I'm not gonna.

[David]

You're not there with two like flags being like.

[Ben]

No, it's like, oh, David lynch has a new movie out. Like, I've never seen a movie at Carolina. It's supposed to be a great theater. I'll go see what. I'll go check it out.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And what's interesting is when we get to exhibit B. I mean, one of the reasons that this memory is so special for me is that I remember it in the context of thinking that was a great year for me going to the Movies 2007 about this.

[David]

Right.

[Ben]

I mean, it's nuts.

[Griffin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Right. Because this. This falls into 2007 for you. So you7 thought of as sort of like a high watermark.

[David]

A big.

[Griffin]

It's kind of a second 1999 of a lot of major young American auteurs.

[Ben]

So exhibit B is a printout of my Excel spreadsheet that I kept for tax purposes. I was a freelancer, so seeing movies was a tax write off according to my accountant. So I have like over 20 years of just like all the movies that I paid money for. And I mean, it's crazy. If you like, specifically, I realize if you like broy elevated genre movies that end with an unresolved kind of Crappy feeling. This is your year.

[David]

It's so true.

[Ben]

Children of Men, the Departed.

[Griffin]

Well, some of these are late 2006. That you bet. That I just want to clarify.

[Ben]

Yep, yep. The freaking.

[Griffin]

Because you have There Will Be Blood and no country at the end of the year.

[Ben]

Yep. You have soda. Freaking Zodiac, Michael Clayton. Yeah. The movie Eastern Promises.

[David]

The feeling you're talking about is present in all the. Right.

[Ben]

Gone Baby Gone, which actually I rewatched recently when I was looking at this spreadsheet. It got me so psyched for Gone Baby Gone. I rewatched and that might be getting up towards five times.

[Griffin]

Wow.

[Ben]

I freaking love Gone Baby Gone. I think it's so good and I think some of the sequences are so exciting and I think Casey Affleck is fucking mesmerizing in that movie.

[Griffin]

He is.

[Ben]

Before the devil knows you dead. Speaking of feel good movies.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

I mean, jeepers creepers.

[Griffin]

Do you know what I almost think was in the water that year? And I'll make it 2000.

[David]

George W. Bush and the Iraq War.

[Ben]

Yeah. I was wondering, what is it?

[Griffin]

I think. I think a lot of it is there was like the immediate aftermath of how do we reckon with 911? And a lot of movies that were trying to tackle it more directly or there was all the sort of like po faced Iraq war movies.

[Ben]

These are all taken elliptical approach. And that's why there's more just in.

[Griffin]

Yeah, it's like it took five or six years for people to be like, I want to make a movie about this mood I'm feeling rather than actually trying to talk about Zodiac, for crying out loud.

[Ben]

Zodiac. I saw. I mean, when I was thinking back on Inland Empire, when I think back on that memory, I think back of just being in the thicket of just like really good movies. Now, Inland Empire is obviously an outlier. Like, as much as I like Zodiac, like, Zodiac is not Inland Empire, you know, like, it's just. It's Inland Empire is just doing something completely different.

[David]

Sure.

[Ben]

The movie that I saw just about a week after I saw Inland Empire comes the closest to the experience I had watching in the Empire is this Romanian movie. Did you ever see a Romanian quote unquote comedy called the death of Mr. Lazarescu?

[David]

Of course.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[David]

Yeah, I remember that one. That was hot shit, though.

[Ben]

It was when Romanian cinema, it was after four months, three weeks, two days.

[David]

Christy Pugh. I'm bad on pronouncing Romanian names, but it is one of those things, right, where they're like, there's a great New comedy out of Eastern Europe. And I'm like, is it two and a half hours long?

[Ben]

Two and a half hours of an elderly alcoholic dying in real time as he is kicked out of multiple hospital emergency rooms.

[David]

It's basically people in Romania are like rolling in. The best I've seen in.

[Dan]

Why is this.

[Griffin]

It's bureaucracy refusing to let this guy die.

[David]

It's making fun of, you know, institutions. Right.

[Ben]

Yeah. Another great experience of just going into a movie cold. I saw it in Chapel Hill. There's an art. An indie cinema that was actually started by my old. My old high school English teacher, Bruce Stone. It's called the Chelsea and it's still in operation. And you could go there and just like. And watch all these funky, like. I saw Akira there when Akira came out. I saw the Vanishing there when the Vanishing was first released. Speaking of another great feel good movie.

[David]

Yeah. That ends really happy.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And so it was like, yeah, there's a new comedy out of Romania, the death of Mr. Lazarescu. So I went in cold. It's like Inland Empire. It's a long movie.

[David]

Yeah, it's two and a half hours long.

[Ben]

And at the end of it, an older guy on the front row literally yelled out, that's it. He was so pissed, he's like, yeah, that's it. He died. Like, it was in the title. You can't be disappointed. Like, you're not getting your money back.

[David]

I think it actually, from what I remember that movie, it ends with them being like, okay, we're finally gonna do like a brain operation on you. And the movie's like, well, leave it off here.

[Ben]

We're gonna.

[David]

We're gonna let you guys go now. And you're just like, no, I think.

[Ben]

He dies on a stretcher. I think it's a.

[David]

He's definitely on the table. I can't remember. Yeah, yeah, I haven't seen it. I mean, it is in the title that he dies. So, you know, don't be.

[Ben]

So my memory of Inland Empire is coupled with my memory of just being like, what a great year for movies. Like, I like bro y movies that end on a bummer note. I thought death of Mr. Lazarescu was fun. Like, I don't need to see it again, but, you know, it's like, if you saw that recent movie from Romania called Do not Expect Too much from the End of the World. Did you see that? Fucking awesome.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Another two and a half hour movie.

[Ben]

Absolutely. An absolute grind.

[Griffin]

12:08 Bucharest. Did either you see that? That was. That was 600 funny, very bleak. Romanian comedy.

[David]

That one, I think is at least short. I'll give that one credit. Yeah, I don't know what the rule is about Eastern European films needing to be very long. So Inland Empire in this beautiful.

[Ben]

I saw it in this beautiful, empty, almost empty theater. I went and just being like, oh, David lynch has a new movie and that's all he knew. And I remember, I just. I just remember it as just like a great experience, like rewatching. It was interesting. I had misremembered a lot of the movie and I'd obviously forgotten a lot of it. It's been 17 years, but there's some IM. You know, the shot of Laura Dern running towards the camera on that outdoor path, and then you close up on her face and she's got this agonizing grimace that's really her overlit. My memory of that night is seeing her face on a fucking. It was like one of. It was like one of the biggest things I've ever seen, if that makes sense. The, the, the hugeness of her emotion and seeing it on a big, huge screen. I just remember being just like, absolutely, like. I don't know, it was just like really intense. And then the other thing I remember is the credit sequence with Cinnamon and just a feeling of absolute relief and euphoria and catharsis.

[David]

There is a huge relief to the credits in the theater because it is an incredibly long movie and it is quite punishing at times. And the ending is fun and the music is so good. And yeah, there's just that sense of like, okay, I can kind of turn my brain back into low power mode a little bit. I've been straining, especially the first time you see this movie. Think you're like, yeah, I've been strained to kind of keep all these placement and try and think about what they are, while another part of my brain is like, don't worry about it, like, just soak it in or whatever. But if you're watching a movie, you can't help but try to grasp a narrative, I think, absolutely. Unless you're very, very used to, like, avant garde cinema where you're like, oh, yeah, sure, sure, sure. Like, I'll just bathe in it.

[Griffin]

Breeze. Early in this series, we've recorded almost all the episodes up until this point, basically all of them, but they haven't come out yet. So I just want to inform you Sims made a joke and maybe the Eraserhead episode, that his glib analysis for all David lynch movies, when people try to unlock them Was just going to be. It's about a guy who loses his keys.

[David]

It's clear what this movie is about. It's a guy who lost his keys. That's my jokey.

[Griffin]

Like, you have to lie.

[David]

I put the evidence together here. And this represents the keys. This represents the guy.

[Ben]

There are two stories in all of human history. Guy loses his keys, guy finds his keys.

[Griffin]

That's basically Sims's bit. I just want to point out he's been proven somewhat correct maybe four times across this series. 2 minutes and 12 seconds into this movie, a couple. A man and a woman in silhouette. Subtitled in Polish.

[Ben]

Right.

[Griffin]

We don't really have our bearings yet.

[Ben]

Faces blurred out.

[Griffin]

Interestingly, start having an argument about, I don't have the key.

[David]

Yeah, that's true.

[Griffin]

Four of these movies do.

[David]

Drive has key imagery.

[Griffin]

Losing keys.

[Ben]

Yeah, he's losing keys.

[David]

You're not wrong.

[Ben]

There is a lot of keys, passageways and portals. I mean, that's obviously like one of his recurring motifs and obsessions.

[Griffin]

You had your line on, I think, the Spirited Away episode where you said that you think all movies are puzzles or dreams. And it's a thing we cite a lot and think about a lot on this show.

[Ben]

And I think, well, not all movies, but, like, movies that you sit with and you. You know what I mean?

[David]

Like, flubber is a puzzle. You know, there's ones you ruminate on.

[Ben]

Like, you think about. Right. Like, can they. Can it be solved? Like, is it a. Is it about finding the solution? Or just like being in a feeling?

[Griffin]

Isn't what's interesting about lynch that he kind of makes films that are simultaneously puzzles and dreams?

[Ben]

Well, that's why I think Mulholland Drive is in the pocket.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Because that's in the sweet spot.

[Griffin]

It's the best version because you can.

[David]

Watch it as a puzzle or not.

[Ben]

You can watch it both ways.

[Griffin]

Right.

[Ben]

Inland Empire, I think you can't solve it all the way. I mean, this is the reason that I've really come to love this movie is. I think part of it was that, you know, it was like, improvised. Like, he didn't really have a script. Like, he was just, like. With it.

[David]

And we can talk about that. We.

[Griffin]

I mean, we should crack open the dossier. But I watched this movie last night for the first time with the. Like, I'm not gonna try to solve this because I understand the way he made it.

[Ben]

Right. Yeah. Yeah.

[Griffin]

It's not as intentionally designed with a simple codex in his mind.

[David]

I think there is still a sort of story you can pluck out of Inland Empire, but it's sort of like Mulholland Drive where you don't have to do that.

[Griffin]

At the very end, I suddenly had a read on it. Sorry, I feel like I interrupted you. Something you were about to say about not trying to solve this movie or whether it is solvable.

[Ben]

Well, I mean, the solution is in the posters. It's like a woman in trouble.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Like what?

[David]

More information of, like, there will be an emotion at the center of the story, I'm telling you, that will get through to you no matter how it's being communicated.

[Griffin]

And a performance that is so locked in that even if the actor herself does not really understand what movie she's in or what.

[Ben]

Right. There's a quote where she's like, I can't wait to see this movie and figure out what the fuck I was doing.

[David]

She talks about her, and Justin Thoreau would just kind of be like, what are you think this movie is about? Like, what?

[Griffin]

But the difference is that she's in almost every shot.

[David]

Well, no, she's not. She's not in quite a lot of it, actually.

[Griffin]

She's in a lot of it.

[David]

Of course, it's a big, crazy performance.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

But it was fun.

[Griffin]

It is more grounded that you kind of stay locked into whatever she's playing at that moment that the movie became.

[David]

This kind of, like, early Internet meme because David lynch rented a cow and went on a street and did an Oscar campaign for Laura Dern. And people were like, in a way, she should get an Oscar nomination. She has, like, 40 Oscar clips. She delivers monologues. She does accents, she cries, she dies. And at the same time, people are like, can you please be serious? No Oscar voter is going to respond to this movie. But it was such a thing at the moment where I feel like his Oscar campaign became more famous than the movie.

[Ben]

Oh, yeah, totally.

[Griffin]

In a certain way, despite not getting her nomination that she was never going to get, it has proven more effective than most Oscar campaigns and that we all remember the campaign.

[Ben]

Yeah, right.

[Griffin]

Like that. And the Melissa Leo. I'm buying out ads myself that say, consider.

[Ben]

Those are the two for your consideration campaigns that people still talk about.

[Griffin]

And they're the two times that people went crazy. Right. That they were just like, your, like, model of how you do this and good for them. And David lynch doesn't get the nomination, but he got.

[David]

He got attention.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And he knows how to get.

[Ben]

All right.

[David]

Yeah, I will. We have research on the film, so I will write. Okay, crack Open our dossier. Yes. Mulholland Drive, of course, came out in 2001. And David lynch doesn't really have any plans for another movie after that. He's much more interested in the Internet.

[Griffin]

And doing his dumb land.

[David]

Right. His own website.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Maybe starting his own television station is something he talks about. He starts David Lynch.com and for $10 a month, people will remember this. You would get his daily weather reports, something called Out Yonder, where he and his son Austin would talk to each other. Not sure I've ever seen those.

[Ben]

I've definitely seen the weather reports.

[David]

Of course.

[Ben]

Blue skies and golden sunshine.

[Griffin]

He would speedrun levels of Sonic and Knuckles.

[David]

Yeah, Dumbland, which we talk about a little bit on Earth. Do you remember Dumbland? It was sort of an animated. Crudely animated.

[Griffin]

Feels very people, actually.

[Ben]

Yeah, right. I get it confused with the comic he had that never changed. The Angriest Dog in the World or whatever it's called, where it's the same art every single time.

[David]

Yeah. Something called Head with a Hammer. Oh, yeah, I remember that. Which is sort of like an office drone satire. Something called Blue Bob, which was a blues industrial blues album he made with the guitarist John Neff.

[Ben]

Jesus Christ.

[David]

I mean, it's David industrial blues.

[Griffin]

But he was almost like doing an early version of a Patreon sort of idea.

[Ben]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Griffin]

You pay your subscription. Here's all my stuff.

[Ben]

This will be.

[Griffin]

Is where all of it will go.

[David]

In 2002, he released rabbits, which is probably the most famous thing that came out of all of this famous quote unquote, which footage of which of course is Inland Empire. We talk about that on our short film episode as well. Have you ever seen Rabbits?

[Ben]

I've only seen it in Inland Empire.

[David]

And so, you know, you've got Scott Coffey, Laura Herring and Naomi Watts in rabbit suits doing this strange sitcom. And they are in the rabbit suits.

[Griffin]

Oh, wow.

[David]

Confirmed.

[Ben]

Whoa. Really? It's really them.

[Griffin]

That's cool.

[David]

That's Laura Herring.

[Ben]

I mean, if you're gonna do it, do it like. That's what's so wonderful about him, right? Yeah. Yeah.

[David]

Laura Herring said her approach was. I closed my eyes and I followed his instructions. Like David Lynch.com shut down in the mid 2000s.

[Griffin]

Classic second.com bubble.

[David]

He did. Yes. He did keep up the weather reports sporadically and they sort of still exist. But he realized, he said, you can't charge people for a site. You don't update all the time. So I lost interest in it.

[Ben]

Would that others would take the same.

[Griffin]

Lesson gonna say he was quick to figure out the grind that doesn't a lot of people.

[David]

Right. And then he went from Internet to the most analog form of generating creativity, walking and running into Laura Dern, his new neighbor. He hadn't seen her in a while. And she's dating Billy Bob Thornton, apparently. And they ran into each other on yon street. Just walking around that. And they were like, you know, we should do something together.

[Ben]

Are you serious? That's how this happened.

[David]

Because, like, what would. The last thing. She'd have been with him, like, wild at heart.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

It had been.

[Griffin]

It had been 10 years.

[David]

More than 10 years.

[Griffin]

I just want to quickly.

[Ben]

Oh, in Blue Velvet. I've seen Blue Velvet. So.

[David]

Of course, of course. I figured you would have seen that.

[Griffin]

Don't spend time on this. I just want to quickly just jump back and circle a thing that I think people forget, which is that Billy Bob Thornton left Laura Dern for Angelina Jolie.

[David]

Yeah, he was. He was dating some really fancy folks in that crazy.

[Griffin]

Whatever. It was 18 months, two years of the Billy Bob Angelina thing. The quiet narrative was. And Laura Dern is sad.

[David]

Right, right, right, right. That he had dumped her. Yes.

[Ben]

Do you want to know something really crazy that I remember about Billy Bob Thornton? I think about this so often on Fresh Air with Terry Gross, the interview show. She once interviewed him and he said he was like. Yeah. He was like, I really get freaked out by old furniture. Like, I can't.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Ben]

I can't buy antique furniture or secondhand furniture. It like freaks me out. It really disturbs me. I have to buy new furniture. I think about that all the time, I believe.

[David]

Do you think there's a point at which his furniture becomes too old for him?

[Ben]

Yeah, I wonder. Yeah, right. Exactly.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Anyway, I believe he has like held up film productions. If they set dress. I. The thing about him is like, his phobias and hang ups are like complete and unbreakable.

[Ben]

Right? Yeah.

[Griffin]

And there are many of them.

[Ben]

It's not an affectation, but I know.

[Griffin]

The antique one like, carries over into all aspects of his life.

[Ben]

I love that they ran into each.

[David]

Other and they're like, we should do something together. So David lynch is like, let. Let me just film you doing some stuff. And she says she did tell her agent at caa, I'm going to do this. And her agent was like, what's he paying you? And lynch said, well, the Internet rate is $100. And so he paid her $100. And they shot this lengthy monologue which is you know, basically lots of it is in the film, which is her talking. They're called the Mr. K monologues in the film. But it's her when she's talking with the sort of Southern accent, recounting these things to a bespectacled man.

[Ben]

One of the actually creepiest characters in the movie.

[David]

Yeah, he's pretty creepy.

[Ben]

That performance is so unsettling of the guy behind the desk.

[David]

It's all shot in his painting studio, which they made a sort of set inside of. And she started speaking and they stopped twice. Once for an airplane, once to reload the camera. Just apart from that, they just did long, like 45 minute takes.

[Ben]

But we should emphasize they were not reloading the camera with film.

[Griffin]

No.

[Ben]

Because this movie is not shot on film. No.

[David]

You love to come on for movies that were shot.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[David]

Fax machines. What are you looking up?

[Griffin]

Yeah. Eric Crary, who plays Mr. K. Yes. Is kind of a Monty Montgomery situation.

[David]

Right. He's a film producer. Right.

[Griffin]

He. Here are the titles he held on this film in Lind Empire. Okay. He of course functions as an actor playing the role of Mr. K. He also was associate producer. He also was production supervisor. He also was camera operator at times. He was part of the construction team.

[Ben]

This. But this is how all movies should be made. It's like, yeah.

[David]

Yep. I mean, yeah. I mean, is the camera supervisor just someone who's like, hey, could you turn it on, maybe?

[Ben]

Make sure there's no film in that camera. Make sure that thing looks like absolute garbage.

[Griffin]

He was Mary Sweeney's assistant on Mulholland Drive.

[David]

Yes. Right. Okay.

[Griffin]

So you're like, here's his, like he's just in. Long time partner, creative collaborators, assistant. Who Then he's like, I'm working on a new thing. I don't really know what it is yet. Can you come and be the person Laura Dern monologues to? And also as the project grows, he starts putting them in all these different places.

[David]

They do this. And producer Jay AH Singh recounts that lynch afterwards was just like, what if this was a movie? And was just very excited.

[Griffin]

And so 2006, still a time where a lot of people would look at that and go, well, what we should do is reshoot this on film in a pro.

[Ben]

Never going back to film. Yeah, never going back to film.

[Griffin]

My biggest cultural memory of this movie having not seen until last night, but remembering reading reviews and interviews at the time was that he kept on referring to. And I don't know if this is in the dossier. The Digital camera as my. My beautiful little ugly thing.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

That he was in love with.

[David]

Like, we'll talk about it. But he could have shot this on higher quality digital film. It was available to him.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

He shot on very low quality.

[Griffin]

He liked that it was ugly in a way.

[Ben]

It looks so. It just makes. It looks forbidden. Like, it looks like you shouldn't be watching it. It's perfect.

[David]

So he starts writing pages. Jeremy Alter, who's a location manager on Lost Highway, a friend, you know, starts helping him type pages up and stuff. And they would just sort of sporadically shoot things. They refer to Jeremy Irons coming on board as the moment from when the film shifts from like a project they're working on to like a film.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

Like Jeremy Irons, I guess, makes them all be like, I guess we should like, come correct and like, act like this is a feature, not just like weird David Lynch.

[Griffin]

So that was one more structured.

[Ben]

Yeah. And his. And his performance is completely naturalistic as opposed to everybody else who's acting like they're in a dream. And when he showed up, when I rewatched it for the second time last week, he was one of the things I had forgotten about. It was like, what the is Jeremy Irons doing? He's lost. Like, what is he doing here? Not to mention Mary Steam Virgin and.

[Griffin]

Just all these other William H. Macy, basically reprising his role from Seabiscuit for one shot. Yep.

[David]

There's more of that on the. You like, they filmed plenty of, like.

[Ben]

That'S the whole thing.

[David]

They're just filming stuff. David lynch insisted that he could smoke at any location where he was shooting, so they had to find strange locations to film because it's the 2000. Smoking is going out of vogue. Like smoking in public places. He would do things like, say, like, hey, Jeremy, write this down. I need six black dancers, a blonde Eurasian with a monkey on her shoulder, a lumberjack sawing wood.

[Ben]

Natasha kiss. Right. That's for the credits, the closing credits.

[David]

You know, like, he would basically just be like, see if you can find this, this, this.

[Griffin]

Well, like a past and future guest. A friend of the show, Drew McGuinie, messaged us some months ago when lynch won March Madness and told us that he's in the special thanks for this movie. I don't know, is it one of the scenes that's in the film or is it. I believe so I couldn't identify which one it is, but that he got a call from his friend who was working in some department on this movie and was like, do you still have an empty room in your apartment? And he's like, yeah, my roommate moved out two days ago. I haven't found, like, a subletter yet. And he's like, can. Like, we'll be there in like three hours.

[Ben]

Can we smoke in it?

[David]

20 minutes.

[Griffin]

20 minutes.

[David]

He shows up, I have the text here, and he's with David Lynch. David lynch is like, can I use your room to shoot my new film? Drew says, yes, of course. And that night, right. So not even, like, later, like, oh.

[Griffin]

This is a location scout. You'll get back to us in two months. You'll come here.

[Ben]

Not on. Not on this one.

[David]

He shows up with Mary Sweeney, a cameraman, Laura Dern, four young European women, shoots for five or six hours. And after that would call Drew every few weeks and call, ask him what Drew says was just random questions about things.

[Ben]

Wait, David lynch would call him?

[Griffin]

Yes. Cool.

[David]

It's cool. And that's why he has a special thing.

[Griffin]

Yes. I mean, Dern always said, like, I'd wake up every morning and go, I wonder what we're gonna shoot. And I'd, like, arrive on set. And he'd deliver me pages he'd written the night before. But also, that's how, like, all of the department heads, if those even are really proper titles on this one, are processing it. And then everyone in real time is sort of like, great. Like it's a movie made, like it was chopped or something. You know, where it's like, here are the ingredients. Now figure out how to put this together in the next six hours.

[Ben]

Right? Shake it all up in this big metal bowl.

[David]

As lynch says, I never saw any hole W H O L E. I saw plenty of holes. H o L E S But I didn't really worry. I would get an idea for a scene and shoot it, get another idea and shoot that. I didn't know how they would relate. Production lasted about three years. Initially, it was self funded. At a certain point, he goes to Studio Canal and he's like, I'm making this. It's gonna be vaguely this. And they gave him a few million dollars. He's obviously shooting it on a Sony PD150.

[Griffin]

But what's also big here, he is credited as the cinematographer in a lot of the film. He is physically the one operating the camera.

[David]

He is the cinematographer, editor, and composer.

[Griffin]

A lot of Mary Sweeney obviously usually did his editing. And he said, in this case, there's no script to go off of. There's no order to put these things in. I was the only one who could edit it, because I was the only one who had any sense of looking at the footage and trying to figure out what it meant to me. But I think the whole point of the process of this movie is him just being like, how do I basically reduce this art form to pencil on paper? Even from the time he's at afi, it's like, well, you need a crew of a certain size and you need film. It has to be processed, and there's a structure and all of this sort of stuff. Film schools do not just teach you the creative aspects and the language of film, but they also try to train you in, like, how to behave like a proper film production. They try to teach you how to be, like, upright and upstanding and have everything covered. And this feels like him at this point in his 60s, being like, how do I turn filmmaking into something as direct as my painting, where it's like, I'm just moving, I'm holding the camera, I'm writing stuff, I'm handing it to people, I'm cutting it. I'm just like, it's whatever I fucking feel like in the moment.

[David]

The way he talks about is also how Soderbergh talks about.

[Griffin]

About it.

[David]

This, like. This liberation of, like, I don't have to take all day setting something up. Like, we, you know, we're no longer bound to, you know. He calls film a dinosaur in a tar pit. Much like Soderbergh, he now has kind of gotten over it. It's not like he doesn't like digital anymore, but now he's like, ah, film's nice. And, yeah, I might use it again. Who knows? You know, they kind of get nostalgic, I think. But there's something liberating, I think, of just like, oh, I just put the camera here and we're ready.

[Griffin]

Liberia, the word. But Soderbergh is so often working with writer collaborators, working with some kind of pretty fixed, honed piece of text. And then he likes the challenge of, how do I simplify the workday around this? The process, the language of the movie itself. Lynch is also generating the language in real time.

[Ben]

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the reasons the movie is so exciting is it's. It's so intuitive. Everything about it, right. The shooting of it, the writing of it, such as it is, and then the editing of it, obviously. So in a way, you know, David lynch is all into meditation and all this kind of stuff.

[Griffin]

I haven't heard that.

[Ben]

And this feels like the closest he gets to. I don't know, what you call, like a flow state or whatever.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And he did it for a whole movie, which is, like, bonkers.

[Griffin]

Like, over three years on and off, obviously.

[Ben]

Right. Yeah.

[Griffin]

Yes, he was.

[Ben]

But I can't remember another movie that I've seen. I can't remember another feature film that I've seen in a real movie theater. That is so intuitive.

[Griffin]

No, I don't think there's another film quite like this. And a lot of it is, like, the process and him having a reputation.

[Ben]

Right. I don't know who could make him.

[Griffin]

Trust him to do that.

[Ben]

Exactly.

[Griffin]

That he had. Like, in certain ways, it feels like this would be a lot of people's weird first film they made.

[Ben]

Yeah, exactly.

[Griffin]

Before they figure out how to hone their thing.

[David]

This is also just. This is basically an avant garde film. And it is the only avant garde film a lot of people have seen because they saw it because it's a David lynch film with, like, famous people are in it.

[Ben]

Totally. Yeah.

[David]

And it's kind of got a foot in each world a little bit, you know, versus like something you would see at a art museum or at a, you know, at the end.

[Ben]

But that's why it's so damn good, because movies always have to have a screenplay. And, like, screenplays are great, but it's.

[Griffin]

Like, they're for nerds.

[Ben]

No, but seriously, don't you kind of think. Don't you kind of get sick of it after a while? Like, of course. Like a good. A good movie. And it has a screenplay. Oh, the script is so good. Oh, I loved how they resolved act two, blah, blah, you know, or this character's theme was, you know, you're doing.

[Griffin]

A direct impression of this podcast, but.

[Ben]

You know what I mean? Like, I like. I like good screenplays. They're a lot of fun. They make movies really good. But to go, go. I mean, this is the thing about, like, to go to a big theater and sit in the dark at this massive screen in an almost empty. I remember it as almost empty theater and just watch a terrifying dream.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And knowing on some level this is inexhaustible.

[Griffin]

Right.

[Ben]

Because I will never be able to solve it. Because it wasn't made with that part of the brain or something. Like, this is. This is intuitive. This is pure emotion. There's just like, you can fit. You can solve it. Like, oh, she is the Polish prostitute. Or, oh, the family in the house. Wasn't her family, quote unquote, you know, and by her, I mean either sue playing Nikki or Nikki, like, who cares? Just to sit in that space and, and be like, like, really lost his keys. I mean, it's just like, it's so wonderful. It's like, yeah, like David lynch is just doing his thing. It's so awesome that I'm sitting in a fucking movie theater just watching David lynch do his thing.

[Griffin]

Well, and I think this is the breakthrough of the technology changing.

[Ben]

Right, right.

[Griffin]

Is that like there was a baseline that a movie cost, amount of crew, people you needed on set, you could.

[Ben]

Not afford to be intuitive because. Yeah, correct. Yeah, exactly.

[Griffin]

You need to hone your ideas. Even in a movie that is abstract or even in a film that is avent guard, you need to come kind of correct with some clear plan and sense of how to get all of this done. And he's like, not just rethinking the language of how the movie looks, but how he operates on a day to day basis. And we've talked so much across the series about his whole thing of like his routines around creativity where he's like, I have to be creative every day. I eat the same thing every day. So that leaves space for my brain to wander. And then there has to be some expression of it, you know, whether I'm painting every day or things like the weather, which people were like, what is this? Is this a bit? And it's like, no, it's all part of the. Just like, I need to do stuff and maybe something interesting comes out of it, maybe it doesn't, maybe it's shared, maybe it isn't. But like the gears operate. And then it felt like for him, every three or four years he'd be like, and now here's a movie. This is like a finished work. I do a lot of stuff on a daily basis, but these are the works that are real, concentrated, focused, resolved in some way, even if they feel ambiguous. And then this is the opposite. This is him making a movie out of basically his daily routine of creative exploration.

[David]

Laura Dern famously told the BBC before it premiered at the Venice Film Festival, I don't know who I was playing and I still don't know. I'm looking forward to seeing the film tonight to learn more. She references Catherine Deneuve in Repulsion as a big influence in terms of like playing a dismantled person is how she puts it. Basically.

[Ben]

Like, that's interesting.

[David]

She sort of like, I think David was giving me several characters. There may be aspects of a same person or a same vibe or whatever.

[Griffin]

And Repulsion has that same kind of like inscrutable reality vibe.

[David]

You're in someone's troubled mind and you can't tell what's real or not. Justin Theroux says Inland Empire is close to a spiritual opus as you're going to get. It's powerful. It's got all these inexplicably unforgettable images. A character standing behind a tree hiding a Christmas light, for instance. So strange and yet you remember it.

[Griffin]

David.

[David]

Oh, hello.

[Ben]

Hi.

[Griffin]

How are you doing?

[David]

I'm good, I'm good. I mean, Valentine's Day is coming up.

[Griffin]

I mean, I was gonna bring it up. You're a married man.

[David]

Sure. For me, there's only one place I trust. 1-800-flowers.com.

[Griffin]

You gotta show your wife that you love her and that you care.

[David]

Each year I'm ordering stunning, high quality bouquets from 1-800-flowers that my wife absolutely loves. And we're partnering with 1-800-flowers to make sure you're a Valentine's hero with this exclusive offer for our listeners.

[Griffin]

An easy sell. This is a great time of year to encourage people to order flowers for the love of their life. Look, and this doesn't need extra spin on it. We don't need to put any mustard on this ad Reid offer with double the flowers.

[David]

Double the roses for free. When you get one dozen, they'll double your bouquet to two dozen. It's the perfect way to say I love you without breaking the bank.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

1-800-Flowers. It always delivers.

[Griffin]

Trust. I trust you when you say that. Yeah. This is all that needs to be said. Ding dong.

[David]

And who's that at the door?

[Griffin]

We should check quickly.

[Ben]

Right?

[Griffin]

I mean, I know we're almost. We're getting through this ad read.

[David]

Okay. But I tell you that I got a great bouquet from 1-800-Flowers. It arrived right away.

[Griffin]

I'm just going to walk to the door quickly.

[David]

It's a really nice. Why do you get roses? I got a sort of double bloom. Yeah. Yeah. Hand outraged comes in a really, really nice container. Yes.

[Griffin]

Who can plant a rose bud?

[Dan]

My God, Dan.

[Griffin]

Pluck petunias, too.

[Dan]

It's been a while. How are you?

[Griffin]

Dan Candyman. Cam. Been a dog's age. It has. It's been a long time since you guys have invited me to come over.

[David]

No one invited you.

[Griffin]

I felt like a diplomatic. I felt it in the air. My ears were burning.

[Dan]

Wow. Dan Candyman, you look like crap.

[Griffin]

It's been a rough couple years.

[David]

Why? What's going on? Dan?

[Griffin]

I come from the Candyman family, of course, of the Montreal Candyman. And we're A flower family by trade. The name does tend to confuse people. Along with me singing a song that's a modified version of the Candyman, the Willy Wonka song. And it always confused people. People. So I'm actually here today selling candy.

[David]

Oh, okay.

[Griffin]

Well, I'll buy some candy to raise money for my high school's basketball team.

[David]

Okay, cool. How much?

[Griffin]

You're not gonna ask any questions about that? What are M M's?

[Dan]

Well, you know, these are just gray shells. There's not a color in sight.

[Griffin]

Look, I'll admit, yes, I'm selling candy. That's not really why I came in here today.

[David]

Okay, what's going on?

[Griffin]

I need flowers. I no longer have the hookup. My family has completely divested.

[David]

Oh, well. And I actually do have great news for you. Because all roses from 1-800-Flowers are picked at their peak, cared for every step of the way, and shipped fresh to ensure lasting beauty. The bouquet I got came fresh, sat on our table looking great for ages. Didn't like wilt after two days. Like some, you know, local sort of bodega flowers you might buy or whatever.

[Dan]

Comes with a little packet.

[David]

Little packet to sort of spruce them up and make them alive.

[Griffin]

Gosh. Because this is a stressful time of year for me. You know, Valentine's Day is really rough on Dan Candyman.

[David]

I don't.

[Griffin]

Because I'm part of a very large polycule. I have to get a lot of flowers.

[David]

I hate all your lore.

[Griffin]

I think it's interesting and people are going to be excited.

[David]

Well, you better get on it because bouquets are selling fast. Lock in your today. And of course, if you do order a dozen roses, they'll double the rose bouquet for free. That's a great value. To claim your double roses offer, go to 1-800-flowers.com check. That's 1-800-flowers. Com check to get your double your roses offer. 100flowers.com check.

[Griffin]

Now that sounds great, but I have to admit my many, many partners have some pretty specific tastes. Double roses sounds nice, but by any chance does 1-800-Flowers offer kaleidoscope roses, hand dyed, 24 stems in a purple vase with wind chime included. I'm looking it up. Okay. They do have it. Great. What a great product. Would you like to buy 1m?

[David]

Sure. Fine. Give me an M. There you go. Thanks.

[Griffin]

That'll be 25.

[David]

Wait a second.

[Griffin]

I have to raise money.

[David]

1,800Followers.Com Check.

[Griffin]

David?

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

If I know one thing about you, okay, it's that you're tired of Figuring out what's for dinner every night after night. Especially on those busy weekdays when you walk into the studio every day and you go, I'm so tired. I go, don't even finish the sentence. I know the one root cause of that problem.

[David]

Busy weekdays. I just had it. Busy weekdays.

[Griffin]

No, I'm saying it's you trying to decide what to make for dinner night after night.

[David]

Busy weekdays. How do make my weekdays less busy?

[Griffin]

These issues are linked. I go, how are the twins? Sleeping? You go, great, no problem there. I'm joking through the night. Yes.

[David]

I have to feed my family.

[Griffin]

You have more mouths to feed.

[David]

And that is true. Although they just eat. They don't eat lovely meals. But I have to make lovely meal. And I get home and my time limit is. My time window is limited. And it is hard to just kind of, you know, find a magic recipe in the fridge every single day.

[Griffin]

And personal it is sort of experience. This is.

[David]

Yeah, I mean if you really want to get into it, basically like it's 5:30. Right. Dinner's got to kind of be on the table because everyone's going to bed around seven.

[Griffin]

Right. Podcasting has ended 15 minutes before that.

[David]

That's. That is why be honest. Anyone who listens to the show might notice that I am a little. But look, it's easy to find time to eat well because you can get 50 wholesome hassles, free meals to choose from every week to get delivered right to your door. These HelloFresh ready made meals that go from fridge to fork.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

In just three minutes. One, two, three minutes.

[Griffin]

That's the journey. I like fridge to fork.

[David]

It's the same high quality ingredients in restaurant or the flavor you expect from HelloFresh, but none of the work. Okay, so it's not like I hate this stuff you're talking about. You know, they give you all these pre packaged ingredients. You make a meal that's fun. These things come together with minimal message than just five minutes of prep. Your oven does most of the work, not you.

[Griffin]

But this is what's nice about HelloFresh is they got a lot of variety. There's a lot of adjustment you can make on your end as the customer to serve your own needs. So as you're saying, you got two twins now that don't eat real food, but sooner rather than later.

[Ben]

They will, they will.

[Griffin]

And you can adjust your order 100%. Fit a family of five rather than a family of three.

[David]

Yeah. You can get up to 10 free meals and a free high protein item for. For [e-mail]. check 10 FM. That's Check 10 FM.

[Griffin]

That's interesting. That's interesting. Code. We've never gotten that code before.

[David]

No, that's why I'm repeating it.

[Ben]

Hey.

[Griffin]

And Green Chef is now owned by Hellofresh. So with a wider array of meal plans to choose from, there's something for everyone. I personally love switching between the brands because I'm verse. And now my listeners can enjoy both brands at a discount with us.

[David]

One item per box with active subscription free meals applied as discount on first box. New subscribers only, varies by plan. That's up to 10 free HelloFresh meals. Just go to HelloFresh.com. check 10 FM. It's HelloFresh, America's number one meal kit. So they shot a lot in LA, a little bit of Paris and a lot in Lodz, I think is how you say it.

[Ben]

That's all the Polish stuff. Yeah.

[David]

Lynch fell in love with it. He went there to, I think, photograph some abandoned factories, which sounds like something that David lynch would do and really liked the weather, the raininess, these big electrical plants.

[Ben]

Yeah, it's like an old industrial stuff.

[David]

But then it's got all this industrial.

[Ben]

Stuff to probably has like electrical hums in the evening that he loves electricity.

[Griffin]

Been to Poland?

[David]

I have never been to Poland.

[Griffin]

It is unbearably sad.

[Ben]

Whoa, cool. Really?

[Griffin]

Yeah. Yeah, in a way that's like kind of fascinating and profound. I mean, I, I am predominantly Polish in heritage. As am I, but is not a thing. Really.

[David]

Yes. Well, I'm my mom's side, not my Dad's side.

[Griffin]

I'm 50% Polish, Scots and French or whatever they are. My family has like no sense of like Polish pride.

[David]

No, they left as did mine. That's the thing.

[Griffin]

It was like we moved on.

[David]

It wasn't a country. Well, it might have been a country.

[Ben]

Yeah. Wait, what makes it sad?

[Griffin]

Just, I, I, I don't know how to verbalize. And I do think this comes across in the movie I was trying to crack why Poland? And maybe it is just he went there and started filming there and then was like, well, then I guess I need to Polish characters or whatever. There, there is this sort of like cosmic sadness. I feel like I had heard people say about like this city is still haunted by its past or whatever. And I'd always be like, you're being metaphysical. That's not a thing. It's a city. People are sad. Like 9 11. New York felt sad after that because the people were sad. I don't think New York still feels haunted in, like, the ground in that same kind of way. And then I went to Poland when I was, like, 20 or 21, to Warsaw, and I was like, this place has, like, ghosts in it. Like, it just. And there's something about you can feel in the way it was, like, destroyed and rebuilt.

[Ben]

Right.

[Griffin]

What remains of old Poland and what has been rebuilt both feel reflective of, like, this unspeakable horror that happens in the middle of these two points. And it just feels like there's a fucking heaviness there which I swear extends to, like, the air.

[David]

Let's talk about Inland Empire. The only other thing about the production is obviously, just because of the digital film, he could shoot incredibly long takes. It meant he had a mountain of footage that he himself edited over the course of six months in Final Cut Pro. And the resulting thing is the film Inland Empire, which was released in theaters in. Not, like, wide, but, like, was shown to Americans and took some people by surprise, I would say.

[Griffin]

This movie has its own Twin Peaks, the missing pieces type thing.

[David]

It's what also happened is what it's like.

[Griffin]

More things happened.

[David]

Right? That's it.

[Griffin]

Yeah. But there's an additional 75 minutes of stuff.

[David]

I've never watched them.

[Griffin]

Me neither.

[David]

Yes. It's on the disc.

[Ben]

So is the movie that I saw in 2007, the same version that I watched last week on itunes or however.

[David]

We watched it, he did minor changes.

[Griffin]

He did a fascinating, incredibly complicated and bizarre restoration process for this movie.

[Ben]

I read about that. Where make it look good and then make it look like again or something.

[David]

They had to use, like, AI tech to, like, clean up and then read filthy. I can find this. It was weird.

[Griffin]

We will. We will post on social media the actual document and the wording when this film had its re release in theaters and then the Criterion release. That explains it. But basically, it was like there was a certain amount of upscaling that happened at the time relative to 2006 technology to give it a little more detail. So it would look a little less shitty projected on a huge screen, but that was an artificial sharpening and a more limited sort of, like, I don't know.

[Ben]

So I can say. The important thing is, can I say that I had the authentic Inland Empire experience because I saw it on a big screen in 2007.

[Griffin]

Correct.

[Ben]

And half the time I couldn't tell what the fuck I was looking at.

[Griffin]

What he's done since then is they, like, dumbed it down and they went through a process to take away the sharpening from the theatrical. Yeah.

[David]

Scaled it to SD to the blurriness.

[Griffin]

Of the original footage, and then they used more advanced, a high sharpening.

[Ben]

AI was like, I've never been asked to do something like this before.

[Griffin]

But he's obviously not trying to make it look like he was just like, I need to make it a little easier to delineate between shapes on screen. So, yeah, it was like seven passes back and forth. Yeah.

[David]

I did see this restoration at the IFC center, which to me is like, where you need to see a David lynch movie. Because the IFC center is such, like, a. A hallowed museum of, like, early 2000s New York film culture. I still like going there to see anything. It's a totally nice place, Bob, but you know what I mean? Like, that reel they play in front. Do you know what I'm talking about? At the IFC center, they play this reel of, like, oh, like, directors come here to talk about their movies, and it's so much the same reel from, like, 2006 of, like, you know, Spike Lee discussing Passing Strange, or It's like they've never updated it. It's sort of adorable.

[Ben]

I like places like that.

[David]

Yeah. Yeah, me too.

[Griffin]

But I also feel like original run. This movie played for, like, what felt like a straight year at ifc. And even the restoration re release felt like it played for a very long time.

[David]

I think it's just regularly playing there. Honestly, it kind of is never a mini movie.

[Griffin]

In a weird way, more than his other films.

[Ben]

Wait, so when you saw it the other day, did you see it on.

[Griffin]

I saw last night? I projected here on the screen directly behind you in the office.

[Ben]

Okay.

[Griffin]

All right.

[David]

What'd you think?

[Griffin]

I will admit it is a slightly hard movie to talk about having seen only once. I, I felt like I, I. Some of it is inscrutable. I was very engaged by parts of it. I was like, I have no idea to talk about this. And then truly, in the last 30 seconds, I was like, before the end credits, I was like, I think I have a handle on this.

[David]

So what's your take?

[Griffin]

I don't know if my take is super reductive and dumb, but I think it's truly his movie.

[Ben]

And.

[Griffin]

And it makes sense that this is what he would get to as the through line from the process of how he made it, which just starts from, I should film Laura Dern doing stuff. Right. I think this is his movie of being like, what is acting? You know, like, certain directors will talk about, like, I am mystified by the process of watching great actors work, directors who are up there close with them, holding their hands and are still like, there is some weird supernatural conjuring where they are able to pull something from the depths of whatever it is. Their subconscious, their memory, their research, whatever it is, right? And here's like David lynch going through these experiments of filming Laura Dern doing stuff. And he's able to give her shit without context. He's able to pivot wildly, give her no prep time, and somehow, without fail, she constantly drops into something that feels incredibly rich, specific, honest, earned, deep. And I think as the movie goes on, he's starting to like, try to make sense of, like, what is this? I understand my own creative process and my conversation with my subconscious, my unconscious, you know, and trying to get to a flow state and everything, but the idea of physically embodying that and making it something that feels real enough that it passes people's bullshit test in this fake medium, right? Which he's sort of trying to collapse the wall of the medium in real time. When you get that final shot before the end credits of her sitting back on the couch, it's like in this Mulholland driveway. This whole movie has almost been a contemplation of how to figure out this character. And you saying, like, she is the Polish sex worker, right? It's like, well, part of it is, okay, she thinks she's just having to engage with this text and if it's about a relationship, then does she actually need to sleep with the guy? And then she finds out, oh, this is actually based on an older film and there's a Polish curse connected to it. So then she's going back to the original Give me goosebumps.

[Ben]

But then she want to talk about that part. It's so funny.

[Griffin]

Figure out like Polish history. Like, it's the way you'll hear certain actors. And sometimes it feels kind of foofy and academic. And you're like, is this actually necessary of like, well, of course. I had to read 10 books about Poland because the character is Polish, even though it's a present day film or whatever. Like the feeling of the lines being blurred of like you think you're watching an hour of this woman's life decay. And then that at her absolute lowest point is followed by Jeremy Irons being like. And that's a wrap on, we're done with her scenes. And now back to her. Like, the whole movie is just like, what is this weird fucking thing that some people are able to do that.

[Ben]

Is such an interesting Take it is. I would have never thought about any of that. Maybe because I'm not an actor, but I will.

[Griffin]

That's my fear is that I'm running it through the prism of my own experience.

[Ben]

No, but that makes sense.

[Griffin]

Cause I just think of like the opening of the couch right before she gets the monologue from Grace Zabritsky. This thing that's also implanted in her head that sort of then becomes like part of the process. And the way that actors will talk about like, you know what, this weird other thing happened to me when I was filming. And it wouldn't seem like that had anything to do with the project, but it kind of got worked into my performance. It's like, oh, that story starts to become a thing. The whole thing is like I have this exciting audition.

[Ben]

Yeah, she really wants to get the.

[Griffin]

Role right, this woman just sitting kind of like cross legged on a couch, just thinking about like, how do I get my head around this character?

[Ben]

How did the movie make you feel?

[Griffin]

Uncomfortable, I would say. Sure. Yeah. Confused and uncomfortable. I, A lot of it is what you said, the sort of cosmic hollowing out that I think he's able to capture better than anyone in this feels like a movie that is made up almost entirely of those moments. I think it has like real hammer blow versions of it. But I also think that's kind of a through line on this movie. Almost on scene to scene basis more than films.

[Ben]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Griffin]

What were you about to say, Sam? Sorry, I don't know.

[David]

Can't remember.

[Griffin]

Okay. Ben, had you seen it before? No, no, no.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[David]

What'd you think?

[Ben]

How did it make you feel?

[Dan]

It's fucked up. No, it made me feel confused. But I love throughout all of his work the dreamlike nature of it. And so once you can just kind of let go and lock in. I found myself getting really lost in the world, but also kind of in my own just internal interior worlds and thinking about dreams I've had and, and, and recurring motifs that have keep coming up throughout my life. You know, again, dreams and imagery and, and, and just, it's, it's easy to space out and not feel like you're losing out on too much.

[Griffin]

But that's also I think kind of a cornerstone of certain avant garde cinema and especially avant garde cinema that's done at feature length or even extreme lengths. I mean, this is his longest movie. Must be, right? Has to be.

[David]

Yeah, I would think so.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

I, I, I've invoked this before, but I remember reading this review of Goodbye Dragon in a Fantastic film. But a film that famously ends with an eight minute unbroken shot of an empty movie theater.

[David]

Yes. Oh, I apologize. Have you ever seen Simingliang? I am sorry. I got that. He's like a Malaysian filmmaker, but he's mostly Taiwan new wave guy. The Hole. Have you ever seen the Hole?

[Ben]

No.

[David]

You would love.

[Griffin]

Yeah, you should dig in, check it out. But it's a movie about a movie theater on its last night of operation, playing an old martial art epic.

[Ben]

I gotta say this, like, one of the things that David lynch does so well is. Well, we'll talk about this when I talk about the third time I watch this movie. But images of movie theaters in movies.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Ben]

It gives me such a shimmering, uncanny feeling.

[Griffin]

Well, so this Goodbye Dragon is made up almost entirely of that.

[Ben]

Right.

[Griffin]

And it's sparsely attended and it's all these employees. It has maybe 20 lines of dialogue.

[Ben]

Oh, I'm in a lot of it.

[Griffin]

Is watching the movie in the movie that was a real movie from the distance of an empty theater.

[David]

It's so funny because. Right. I mean, like. Like I was like this young film fan. I saw the whole thing. I saw what time is it there? And I was like, I'm so pumped for this guy. I'm now on board. And then Goodbye Dragon and really felt like him being like, oh, I'm even a little bit considered now.

[Griffin]

You.

[David]

You are about. You are in for. It's his kindness, limiting, distancing experience.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

And I have come around to that movie, but I remember at the time being like, like, huh. I don't know what to make of that one. That one kind of went over my head.

[Griffin]

I remember reading this critical discourse around this movie probably happening in timeout New York and people fighting over it. Right. I think maybe two different critics debating it and saying, like, I get the impact of having such an extended long final shot of this empty theater, the resonance of it. And now it's over. But is there anything that you get from the shop being eight minutes that you don't get from the shop being three minutes with sort of their argument? And this person retorts, like, when something extends to that length, part of it isn't asking you to engage and just give your full focus to watching it for eight minutes. It's what? Then it's sort of. It becomes about what you think about while that's going on.

[Ben]

Right.

[Griffin]

It's a very different way of watching and engaging with a movie where you're used to. It's holding your hands and it's begging for your attention. And this is saying, what else does this make you think of?

[David]

I mean, and it's the. It's the classic I was kiarostami quote about, like, I like films that make you like to put their audience to sleep in the theater. Like, those are the films I like. Like, I don't. I'm not trying to keep you awake, buddy. I'm trying to actually put you to sleep.

[Griffin]

David.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

That's gotta hurt. That's a quip. That's a quip that people make or like, do not go in there. That's like another quip. But if they're saying that's gotta hurt, maybe they're saying it about root canals. And if they're saying do not go in there, maybe they're saying that about a mouth with a bunch of plaque build up. My point here is if you want to avoid being the subject of quips like that, maybe you should use our sponsor today quip.

[David]

Yeah. So why don't you get yourself quip360? It's an oscillating toothpaste brush. Griffin, that's literally going to revolve around you.

[Griffin]

That's what I like.

[David]

I've been using quip for a long time. But the 360 is the, you know, the kind of like, round brush. Sure, yeah.

[Griffin]

Yeah. So the whole thing with quip, it's an electric toothbrush that doesn't overcomplicate the most basic daily ritual. I feel like quip just exists to make this as easy as possible.

[David]

Very simple designs, ultra quiet, super clean, you know, easy to maintain pain, and is scientifically, according to the American Dental association, scientifically proven to remove up to 11 times more plaque between teeth compared to a manual toothbrush and provide up to two times more whitening on day one. And if you don't like it, return it for free within 30 days.

[Griffin]

It's fine. It's. It's easy to travel with, it is convenient, it's easy to clean, and if you do love it, you can brush easy knowing you get a free lifetime warranty for purchasing on Get Quip. That's Q U I P.com and the opportunity to subscribe to refill heads by mail every three months so you never have to go to the store. This is a part I like. That's the kind of thing I forget.

[David]

You don't have to go to the store. It just happens. They just send it.

[Griffin]

It shows up and you go, oh, right.

[David]

I got a bunch of quip stuff sent to me every, you know, few months. It's really, really helpful. They've got 25,000 five star reviews and you know, people love Quip and they.

[Griffin]

Got a perks program. You know, I love perks program.

[David]

You, you do quit perks.

[Griffin]

Quip. Quip puts. Quip Perks is a little hard to say. I'm going to say that's just for me. Quip puts their money where their mouth is. When you subscribe to Auto Ship, you'll be enrolled in Quip Perks to earn credit back over time.

[David]

Just for listeners, a blank check. Get 20% off site wide and a free travel case and counters top. [e-mail] check. That's get Q-U I P.com check.

[Griffin]

Free your mouth today and save 20% sitewide plus a free travel case and countertop stand at getquip q u I p.com check.

[David]

Getquip q u I p dot com check quip quip.

[Griffin]

This episode is brought to you by Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify, home of the number one checkout on the planet. Shop Pay boosts conversions up to 50%, meaning fewer carts going abandoned and more sales going cha ching. So if you're into growing your business, get a commerce platform that's ready to sell wherever your customers are. Visit shopify.com to upgrade your selling today.

[David]

Inland Empire. I saw it when it came out and it had an impact on me. And I was so into Mulholland Drive and like, David lynch that I liked it. But I remember sort of emerging with, like, Laura Dern, though, like, what an interesting emotional experience I had with her. Right. And then every time I would revisit the film, I would always be like, I really remember the sort of premise of, like, she kind of gets lost in a movie she's making that's cursed. And I really remember the ending. And I always forgot that there was like, a lot of Polish and a lot of, like, yeah, right. You know, wandering around in, like, industrial spaces in the middle. And this is the first time because when I saw the restoration, I was like, like a lot of Poland, right? I always forget about the Poles. This time I was like, I am prepared for all the Polish stuff. I am prepared for the monologues. I am, you know, and the whole.

[Ben]

And the whole life with Smithy, the domestic drama going on in the house inside the soundstage. Yeah.

[David]

And I really kind of engaged with it a little bit more in a somewhat linear manner of like, right. This is about some sort of hearse or recurring recursive, like, story that Happens to this woman who has an affair and maybe gets murdered by the other woman and, you know, maybe is sort of being tormented by the other man. And, like, the rabbits are this the. You know, the Polish people are this the. The lost girl who's watching tv, right.

[Ben]

Crying.

[David]

Is this like. You know, it's like we're seeing just different versions. And of course, the movie version of her is this. But also the real version of her seems to be this. Like, she's. Oh, he's married to this guy, you know, who's this Polish guy.

[Griffin]

Like, you know, keep going back to the Twin Peaks it is happening again thing as such, like a key statement for lynch and especially his, like, fixation on the violence that is done to women and the cycles that, like, support it in society and how they process it. That it's like all of this shit is a continuum.

[David]

And I do get the sense in the film that something has happened at the end to maybe break the cycle.

[Griffin]

That it ends with us.

[David]

She destroys some sort of monster. Like that crazy thing we see at the end, that. Not just her face, but then the sort of other odd, weeping sort of clown face, Right?

[Ben]

Yeah. When she shoots the fans.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Right. And then. And then when we're seeing Grace the brisky again, like, it feels like. Yeah, there has been some shift or some.

[Ben]

Oh, I think it's definitely a happy ending.

[David]

Right? This is kind of a happy ending.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

And they all dance.

[David]

Then they all dance to Simoner man while someone saws a log indoors normal. Which is what I do when I feel like I'm kind of.

[Ben]

I remember being. I got. So when the guy sawing the log showed up, it's like it's all happening. It's like that Ron Paul meme. It's all happening. Or whatever Rand Paul or whoever is.

[David]

It's Ron.

[Ben]

Ron is the one. Yeah.

[David]

It was all happening.

[Ben]

Oh, my God. Got me so sad. S so excited.

[David]

Because the thing about Ron Paul is he does look like a little elf from another dimension. Rand Paul, you're just kind of like.

[Ben]

N. I don't want to see that face.

[Griffin]

Ron Paul looks like a time bandit, right?

[Ben]

Totally.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Anyway, the quote I think about.

[Ben]

The quote I think about when I think about this movie is I can't remember who told me this quote, but somebody who had some experience in psychiatry or psychology or something. I was explaining some dream I had had where I was like, I can't remember if we talked about. Did we talk on 28 days later about how I used to have these Recurring nightmares about being attacked by zombies.

[David]

I think we did.

[Ben]

Okay, So I was talking about, like, how, oh, I dreamt I was back in my parents house and all these zombies showed up. And I knew if I opened the door, like, they would tear me alive, tear me apart or whatever. Like, what do you think those zombies represent? And this friend said, the thing you need to know about dreams is everyone in your dream is you. It's all you. That for some reason, helps me make sense of Inland Empire when I'm like, well, wait a minute now. In this scene, she's referring to her husband by the movie name. But in this scene she's in, you know, it's a woman in trouble.

[Dan]

It's alarming though, when you dream of being someone else.

[Ben]

Well, I don't know. If you dream, you mean. Wait, hold on. Are you saying that you can dream that you're inside somebody else?

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

What, like who?

[Dan]

I've had the Fonz. Here's a great example of a recurrence.

[Ben]

Wait, you mean you're not you in your dream?

[Dan]

I'm someone else.

[David]

Who are you?

[Griffin]

Give your example. And then I want to build on this.

[Dan]

So I. I have this recurring dream that's kind of set in this world that's similar to where Bruce Willis is before he goes back in time in 12 Monkeys. I'm underground and it's this kind of like dirt factory. And I'm like, inhabit this worker who's controlling this equipment, like a crane, like operator. And. But my job is like, harvesting potato people. That's the best.

[Ben]

Well, sir, I understand, like, that's not your job in the real world. But how do you know you're not you in the dream?

[Dan]

Because I can see myself and see a reflection of myself.

[Ben]

You can look in a mirror in a dream and see not your face looking back at you.

[Dan]

Such cinematic dreams.

[Griffin]

But here's my question, because I'm the same way, Ben, in that moment, don't you go, oh, interesting. I'm this guy in my dream. Like when I dream as other people, it's like being John Malkovich style. Do you know what I'm saying?

[Ben]

Are y'all on about how can you not be yourself? It's just you.

[Griffin]

But this is what I'm saying. It's being John Malkovich, where it's like I'm inside this body.

[Dan]

It's like watching this narrative, but also knowing that, like, I'm in this.

[Griffin]

So that's the weird wrinkle.

[Ben]

You guys thought Inland Empire was weird? This should be your Favorite. This should be like watching like, like Toy Story to you guys. That's so much crazier than any dream I've ever had.

[Griffin]

Me to a tree with that one. But I know I, I, it's the same thing where I'm like, oh, it's interesting that I'm someone else in this dream. You don't have thinking that in your normal.

[David]

Know what they're talking about.

[Griffin]

My consciousness is in that other person. I'm perceiving being this other person with all my thoughts and experiences and personality. So I'm never fully like, of course I couldn't be someone else entirely because it's going to be me thinking it's.

[Ben]

A matter of embodiment. Like I am in a different person's body right now.

[David]

I do not have that kind of lucidity. But my dream as I remember them.

[Griffin]

And I kind of dream like the cobbler, if that makes more sense. If it's an easier way to.

[Ben]

I don't know what that is.

[Griffin]

Classic Adam Sandler Tom McCarthy movie in which a cobbler literally unlocks the ability to walk in another man's shoes by wearing the shoes of his clients and he gets to be.

[David]

Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin]

He won the Razzie. I think for worse. First picture.

[Ben]

Is this a David lynch joint?

[David]

No. My dreams are always the same. It's always just I have to do something. I keep getting like way later distracted.

[Ben]

Spreadsheet dreams.

[David]

Weird.

[Griffin]

You're trying to get the Inland Empire episode down to 90 minutes and somehow it's stretching off.

[David]

Well, we got.

[Griffin]

Oh, well, we just hit 90 that.

[David]

Good job. Yeah. So the. Right. The first chunk of Inland Empire is about an actress named Nikki Grace. Yes. We have other things that we're seeing such as this hotel room.

[Griffin]

Well, I mean, you saying you know what a is.

[Ben]

That's one of the early lines of dialogue.

[David]

It is. It's definitely like a. It's setting you up for like a chill time.

[Griffin]

The first stuff. You always forget how much polish there is in this movie.

[David]

It does kick off with it.

[Griffin]

I'm clocking about 10 minutes until Laura Dern appears.

[David]

Yeah. I think right.

[Griffin]

There's a hallway conversation. Then you're.

[David]

You start out with an honestly awesome and haunting title screen with this crazy noise and you're kind of like rubbing your hands together. Yeah, yeah.

[Ben]

Truly the sound design in the opening.

[Griffin]

Is great, but then you have like the lost woman watching rabbits on the TV. Like you're in all of that for 10 minutes before ostensibly the main threat of the movie.

[David]

If you Actually want me actually have, like, a synopsis that I can go through. There's an introduction to Axon N, the longest radio play in history, which we occasionally will return to. Some kind of, you know, these are. Like I said, these are all sort of renderings of the same sort of drama of some kind of, like, betrayal and cuckoldry or whatever. You have, you know. Right. This black and white footage of actors blurred out, you know, in this horrible kind of sort of sex worker situation. You have the girl watching rabbits on.

[Griffin]

Tv and the immediate sense that this is her in the aftermath of something traumatic, that she is watching TV in an attempt to process or at least take her mind off of her. Right.

[David]

But then she's seeing rabbits, but she's also seeing Inland Empire. She's seeing, like, Grace Zabriskie on the screen a little bit. And then you have the rabbit taking two Polish guys to a strange sort of hotel room. Lobby, banquet area.

[Ben]

Big, fancy room. A grand room. Yeah.

[David]

And they talk about an opening and if they understand each other, which is language that the movie uses a lot. Like, over and over again, these are. And something's going on there. And then we're with Laura Dern, and I'm like, okay, great. We're like, classic Hollywood setup. Movie actress.

[Griffin]

She's got a new role, Ian Abercrombie as a butler. Like, you're like, I get this.

[Ben]

We're.

[Griffin]

We're dealing in orchidized.

[David]

She seems to live in some sort of, like, incredibly, like, awful mansion.

[Ben]

The feng shui in her house is so up and, like, it's really something.

[David]

You do kind of get the sense that it's her husband's vibration. Like, she seems to have married some.

[Griffin]

Kind of some weird old money guy.

[David]

Yeah. Or like, you know, guy who's a tycoon of terrible things or something. Right.

[Griffin]

Like, like he's a shipping magnet.

[David]

Yeah. It's like, what's your, you know, what's your job? He's like import export. And you're like, oh, right. Okay. And. And it's awful in there. And like, the digital photography kind of enhances it. Makes it look kind of dark and oppressive. And like, there's curtains, and then you see the light coming through. You know? Specific, too. It is. Yeah.

[Dan]

It's so nails. I mean, like, the way people are dressed really, like, brought me back to that time. But the way that that space in particular looks, it just. It looks like what a fancy person thought was, like, it must be a real and nice and classy.

[Ben]

Right.

[David]

This must be someone's house.

[Griffin]

Well, it's like Queen of Versailles, too. Like, I feel like this is when they start filming that movie that is documenting someone ruining their life trying to make a version of a house like this that's 100 times bigger.

[David]

This has to be a real place.

[Griffin]

Yeah, yeah, right? Yeah. Like, they weren't building that for this fucking movie.

[Dan]

It looks like a trashy house in California, though, for sure. Someone who has money but no taste.

[David]

No taste.

[Ben]

Yep.

[David]

And then luckily, what you want in a David lynch movie, Grace Zabriskie comes to kind of, like, cool everyone off.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Just really settle you and make you feel, like, normal and not freaked out at all.

[Ben]

Lesson of this movie, never talk to your neighbors. Never invite them into your home.

[David]

I remember watching neighbors like vampires on TV at one point in my room in college with headphones on. And the whole thing where when she's just talking about a folktale and put in a Polish accent and brutal murder, like, having to turn the TV off, like. And, like, take a break.

[Ben]

You know that fisheye lens? He's shooting her in a fisheye. And then Laura Dern is an irregular lens. And then eventually he shoots Dern in the fisheye. And then you're like, oh, she's getting sucked in. Yeah, it's so great.

[David]

And she does a Lynch trick I really love, which I feel like he's. You know where she points to the couch and then where sort of Laura Dern is on the couch with her friends. And we've moved forward in time without any transition, really.

[Ben]

The couch where she winds up at the end of the movie.

[David]

Indeed.

[Ben]

Yep.

[David]

All the scenes with her and her friends are really funny to me, too, because it's like, you know, they are being normal.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

It's just that they're not David.

[David]

Right. But the aesthetic of it is so impressive that you're like, what is going. Why am I just seeing them chat?

[Griffin]

Well, that's so much of what I remember. The discourse being around this movie when it came out was like, you know, some people. And looking back, it was more positive than I remembered. People were just like, if you're in on lynch, this is uncut Lynch. This is the most unbridled lynch you're ever gonna get. We're eaten. Right. And then the counterpoint was like, I just don't get why it looks so ugly. And this was a thing that was also circling around Michael Mann movies.

[David]

Yeah. Spike Lee, anyone who trying this stuff.

[Griffin]

Why would you choose to use something that looks worse? And it was part of, like, lynch doing these interviews where he said, my beautiful, ugly thing, you know, and certainly, like, man, talking the same way, where it's like, it frees me up. I used to be someone who obsessed over having the light in exactly the right place in these immaculate frames. But there's something that. It just becomes so organic now. And I also think weighs a pound rather than, like.

[Ben]

Well, there's the production. There's the production advantages.

[Griffin]

10 pounds.

[David]

But.

[Ben]

But I do think that the way this movie looks, it really does to me look like a dream. It looks like how my dreams look, which is a lot of, like, gray, diffuse light.

[Griffin]

My dreams are also all kind of blurry.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

It's kind of off.

[Ben]

It looks like a. It looks simultaneously like. Like. Like a snuff film. Like. Like we said earlier, like something you sh. Like truly elicit, but then also when you remember it. When I remember this movie and the palette, it's like remembering a dream because it kind of. The lighting reminds me of a dream. And the griminess, the murkiness of it is the murkiness of a remembered dream. I think it really works. Even if he could have shot on a handheld camera that shoots in 4K and looks terrific, this was the right choice. I think.

[David]

There's no other way to think about this.

[Griffin]

And there's the weird artifacting and abstraction that happens with this level of DVD footage, sort of. My. My limited experience in film school before I dropped out was that, like, you know, when they talk about film as a medium and people are trying to teach you how to work with it, it's like, here are all these magic tricks where you can do this, and suddenly on film it looks like this thing that's a hundred times greater. Right, Right. And video is the opposite, where everyone's like, if you film like this, it's going to look like shit no matter what. You can't get around this. You can't be in any environment with fluorescent lights. You can't do this, you can't do that. Right. Like, all these things they try to warn you away from that he is kind of barreling headfirst into. Because how wrong it ends up looking. Is able to very cheaply conjure the kind of feeling and imagery that he used to have to, like, slave over.

[Ben]

Yeah. It's so evocative.

[Griffin]

Right?

[Ben]

Yeah. And he cannot. I mean, he can obviously make, like, a beautiful movie.

[David]

Yeah, it has. And I wonder if he made, like. If he had made like, six more films like this, would the magic of this film and the way it looks be a little like, you know, hurt by that.

[Griffin]

It is what is fascinating because at the time, in the way he did it, you're just sort of like. It's bizarre. He didn't go through a phase where he just.

[David]

Yeah, I'm just gonna keep. Right. Improvising.

[Griffin]

Even if most of your movies didn't end up being feature films, if some of them ended up being web series or whatever it is, it's interesting that then there's like kind of a shift and a gap after this.

[David]

Right. That's why this is not just like him being like, well, I filmed for three years and cut it together. It's like. No, he had eventually a thrust, you know, of storytelling with it. What were you gonna ask Dave?

[Ben]

Did he make a thing on Netflix where like he's talking to a monkey? Yeah, he was like, he and the monkey were solving crimes or something.

[David]

He's interrogating the monkey like he's a cop and the monkey is.

[Ben]

Is that a movie?

[David]

It's a short 25 minutes.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[David]

Netflix bought it at a certain point. It's like he made it independent, he still financed it.

[Griffin]

It was a big project. He talked about a lot.

[Ben]

What did.

[David]

What did Jack do?

[Griffin]

Yes. Or what? Jackson. Yeah, we covered it on our Patreon.

[David]

Yeah, it's called what? You know, he's done a lot of stuff like that over for his own.

[Ben]

Like what rabbits was, it sounds like.

[David]

Right. And then some things got incorporated and some things kind of just. And then he occasionally will do things like where Dior is like, can you do a commercial for Dior? And he's like, like, it's gonna be weird. And they're like, great. You know.

[Griffin]

But as you said, this is the only time he did this when it started to feel like, is this gonna be his model moving forward? He's just filming all the time. And whenever he feels like, oh, this might actually be a movie, he'll start shooting more intentionally and cut it together. And instead this is like an absolute weird one off experiment and already weird experimental career.

[David]

And then we have the sort of film section of the early production section of the movie. She's on stage, you know, at Paramount, on the Paramount lot near where, you.

[Ben]

Know, that was the filming location.

[David]

Yes, because David lynch loves, I think the scenes. I think it's in Sunset Boulevard, which are set at the Paramount lot. And like has great, like admiration for the Paramount lot as this like sort of hallowed old.

[Griffin]

It's a beautiful classical. Yes. It feels really preserved.

[David]

And so we meet Kingsley Stewart, Jeremy irons in like, you know, irons mode as like the pretentious director. And then Justin Thoreau is the kind of. As Devin, the, you know, sultry star.

[Griffin]

Knew he was in this.

[David]

Oh really?

[Griffin]

And just because, you know, we've, we've been trying to record chronologically we did. I think Mulholland Drive was actually the most recent lynch episode we had done before this. When they revealed Justin Throw sitting in an audition. I think part of my struggle for the first, let's say hour to hour and a half of this movie was like, Lynch, I'm waiting for you to make the case for why this isn't you just still exploring the same things as Mulholland Drive.

[David]

Right. Cause it's Hollywood again. It's a weird dream tale again.

[Griffin]

And Thoreau's here again. A lot of the dynamics feel very similar, but it becomes its own thing.

[David]

Yeah. You sort of get this sense like there's this thing where they appear on a talk show that's hosted by Diane Ladd and renounced by William H. Me Macy. This sense that maybe Laura Dern's character, Nikki has some sort of scandal in her past. That Justin Theroux's character is. Right. Someone who always hooks up with his co stars. There's a sauciness.

[Ben]

Right.

[David]

And then kind of my favorite scene in the movie is when they're shooting the film and Harry Dean Stanton there obviously is there looking for money. Yes. And wearing a suit and smoking. Right. Sees something and.

[Ben]

Yeah. This is one of the things I remember from 2007.

[David]

Yes. Like it's in the dark, you know, back there and they go and look. And I remember in the theater, as someone who had seen Mulholland Drive being like, am I about to be like scared out of my fucking skeleton?

[Ben]

Right.

[David]

Is something crazy going to happen?

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And it's not. It's more just this unnerving, dreamy. Please talk about it.

[Ben]

You're.

[David]

You're raising this yellowed notebook.

[Ben]

Well, I just wanted to. I mean, actually we should remember fear sieben 4 7, the number that comes up a lot. So this is the 4 of 4 7. But during this initial meeting, Kingsley says something after, After Justin throws like a run off to try to find whatever Harry Dean Stanton pointed at and was like, there's something there. Right?

[David]

Yeah.

[Ben]

This line is so scary to me when Kingsley's like, all right, I'm going to tell you guys the truth. We're actually remaking a movie. And then he says, it's this movie.

[David]

German film.

[Ben]

Yeah. They discovered something inside the story, and the leads were murdered. One of my real heebie jeebie things really gives me the he. Well, murder, of course, is murder. Just haunted.

[Griffin]

I don't like it.

[Ben]

Haunted productions, sure.

[Griffin]

Oh, sure.

[Ben]

Like the King in Yellow.

[David]

Yes.

[Ben]

You know, the. The weird tale where it's like, there's this haunted play and when they start to perform it, they all go insane. That kind of stuff. The idea of. I was thinking about it last night, really what freaks me out is humans. There's something so uncanny about this ancient tradition and art that we all recognize and love. Humans putting on special clothes and pretending they are other humans and acting out a story for people who are watching them in the dark. That is so fucked up and disturbing when you think about it.

[Griffin]

Like, if you take.

[Ben]

If you take it out of, like, just the fact, like, we've always done that, like, what are you talking about? It's totally normal. And so the idea of movie productions or TV productions or theater productions being cursed, where you're in the middle of the production, you uncover something, or something is revealed, and then it ends in despair, madness, death. That's so freaky to me.

[Griffin]

Have you seen in the Mouth of Madness, the Carpenter movie? That's basically about a book that makes people mad in that kind of way.

[Ben]

See, I need a list of, like, I want to. I want to have a little film festival where you just watch, like, the.

[David]

Classic thing of, like, am I now, Is this actually about me? Am I in it, like, getting.

[Griffin]

Yes, this is my fucking read on the movie. That it's this thing of, like, what is acting? Is it convincing yourself you are that person? Is it thinking a lot about that? Is it researching the things around it? You know, like, that that's part of what is being conjured here. How are you able to bring emotions out of nothing, right? Are you taking from actual emotions somewhere else in your life? Are you just empathizing and relating to the thing? What I find interesting about that scene is it ends up getting to this curse, right? There is a severity to which the tone in which Jeremy Irons, who is an actor who is capable of great severity, who can deliver anything with, like, a sense of grave importance that makes you sit up, right, in discomfort, if that's what's being asked of him, where he reveals, like, this is actually based on an older Polish film. And Lur dern's response to that is as if he's already revealed that there was a curse and a murder, right? Like, she's like, you told Us. This was an original attack, Right.

[Ben]

It's like the real Hollywood IP reaction.

[Griffin]

You told us this wasn't based on anything, right?

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Where I, like, sat forward in my seat and went like, wait, what just happened in this scene? Why is her response so extreme? And it's like she can already sense that this is going to a bad place in a weird way before you even get to the curse and the tragedy and all of that.

[Ben]

This is one of the big, like, story scenes. It's like one of the only scenes where it's really like, here comes the story. Like, I'm. And you're like, I'm really gonna hang on to this as we go out.

[David]

To see someone explain something.

[Ben]

Right? Yeah.

[David]

Everything else. Maybe you can sort of piece it together or go back later and sort of look at stuff. No one's actually saying something, but it.

[Griffin]

Makes sense that that was their attitude in terms of, like, bringing Irons on. And when Irons was on set was like, these scenes are more structured. He has dialogue that he clearly had time to memorize, is able to sort of just like, roll off. And these scenes are communicating clear things, right?

[David]

Yeah, yeah. So there's. Right. There's this sense of they're maybe playing with kind. Some kind of darkness here by engaging with this story again, even though the story they seem to be doing is just a melodrama. It's just like a romantic melodrama about an affair.

[Ben]

On High in Blue Tomorrow.

[David]

A very David lynch title. Should we keep moving through? Yeah, you've got this notebook, David. Is this Exhibit C? Yeah. I'm like, when I do this every.

[Ben]

Time, it's just the notes that I took when I was watching it for the second time. I mean, talk about your. There's no. There's no insights. It's just me recording what happens. So I later. I can go back, especially with this movie, and be like, what happened? Exactly.

[Griffin]

Is now a good time to introduce the experiences of the second and third viewings? I don't want to force your hand on this. Oh, I know.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

So talked about the first viewing a bit.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[David]

When we talked about it.

[Ben]

Yeah. So I watched it in 2007. I remembered it as a great night at the movies, but it wasn't a movie that I felt like.

[David]

Like, I gotta see that all the time.

[Ben]

Yeah. Right. So then I was talking to my friends that I play music with, playing a band together, and I was like, yeah, I'm gonna talk about Inland Empire. And they were like, oh, Inland Empire. Like, never seen that. One of them, Robert had seen it. He was like, like, let's have a. Right, come over to my house and I have a projector and we can watch Inland Empire. And I was like, great, because all. I don't have it. I just have a laptop. I was like, I don't want to watch this thing on my laptop. Because I remember it as this big, like, overwhelming night at the movies. You know, it's like when David. You know, you guys talked about the David lynch iPhone thing where he's like, now when you see a movie on your phone, that whole thing. Yeah, yeah. Such a sadness.

[Griffin]

So it's that and the clip where they ask about product placement and it says, bullshit.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin]

Fucking bullshit.

[Ben]

Right? Get real.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Anyway, so we went over to Robert's house and we watched it. And that was like, my time to, you know, take all my notes and all that stuff. I was like, yeah, it holds up. Like, it's pretty good, right?

[David]

You had a good experience here, but not. Nothing like. Like a bolt from the blue.

[Ben]

Right.

[Griffin]

But you felt like, okay. No, I feel secure in the fact that I picked this as the episode I want to do.

[David]

Yeah.

[Ben]

There's a lot going on in this movie, obviously. There's stuff. Most of the stuff I had forgotten. I. I thought a lot of the movie was her burning holes in camisoles and trying to save prostitutes. And that's. I thought it was like Mission Impossible, you know, like, I gotta burn another hole so I can jump through a wormhole and go save more prostitutes. But it wasn't that at all. It was like, so much more. Like. I think in retrospect, I tried to put a story on. On it.

[David]

Easiest way to engage with it, right?

[Ben]

Just like you do with dreams, right? You try to find a narrative or make sense of it. Then what happened was we were like, you know what we should do? Because after we watched it, they were really into it. It's like, we should score it. We should go to our practice space and set up a projector and screen the movie and mute it and respond to it with sound and music. Like, we'll do a live improv score of Inland Empire. Fellas, this was one of the great creative experiences of my adult life. It was just three of us. It wasn't the full group because people were traveling and stuff, but Catherine and Brian and I went to the practice space. I was like, this is like, Katherine.

[Griffin]

Didn'T know Brian Wilson.

[Ben]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And we had. We had a drum kit. We had, like, rototoms. We had bass and guitar at. You know, it's like we set everything up. Like, okay, we're going to set everything up so that we can just move from sound source to sound source. So, like, I had like a. One of those Korg bass synthesizers because I know, like, lynch is great at those, like, low tones with, like, texture. So we had to Volca bass. I bought a cello bow so that we could bow the symbols for that iconic horror. You know, when you hold. You like, stabilize the bell of the symbol and then you drag the bow on and it's like. It makes all these crazy overtones.

[Griffin]

This is like John Bryan at Largo. Just everything. We're about to peek out. The Muse can take over us.

[Ben]

Exactly.

[Griffin]

Over to any.

[Ben]

I brought a tape recorder and all these cassette tape loops I had made. You know, where you get the texture of the tape and the. The repeating click of the tape loop where you've spliced the tape and all that stuff, you know, and just. I had all this stuff set up and it's like, all right, let's turn out all the lights and we'll start watching the movie on the projector. And we'll just. We will engage with the movie. You know, we'll try to reflect the movie back to itself with sound. Right. And we had just watched the movie two nights earlier, so we kind of knew in a way what the dynamics were.

[Griffin]

Right.

[Ben]

Let's not.

[David]

You had things you could anticipate.

[Ben]

Yeah, exactly. And it was so fun and exciting. And we took like two breaks. Like, we took a break, like at an hour and then a second break, like within the last 45 minutes of the movie. So it wasn't nonstop for three hours. But it was so great. Like, I'd never, like. I've, like, played guitar, noodled on guitar while I'm watching a movie at home where it's like, just play along with the soundtrack or something. But I never, like, replaced the movie's audio and tried to really express what I was feeling about the movie or what the characters were feeling, like, through. Through making music or noise or just sounds right. Like a lot of it is just like, sounds right. Because that's what he does.

[Griffin]

I'm curious, did you have the film muted or at a low?

[Ben]

Muted, Muted.

[Griffin]

Captions on.

[Ben]

No captions. No captions, no.

[Griffin]

Just working off of images. And the fact that you'd all, as a group, watched it fairly.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Griffin]

Very recently.

[Ben]

Yeah. Two days earlier, I think it was.

[Griffin]

I feel like we must have talked about this in The Buster Keaton series. But it is fascinating how in a. In a pre sound era, a lot of those classic silent films, either original score lost or original score, was never recorded, obviously.

[Ben]

Yeah, right. You just have no idea what it was like to see that movie.

[Griffin]

Or even the ones. And wherever you were seeing it screened, if it was live accompaniment, there was subject to reinterpretation. But also even the ones that do have a quote unquote definitive score, there are so many people today who, like, write new scores for them, right? And depending on, like, what release of a Buster Keaton film, you get from which, like, disc manufacturer label, it'll have like two or three different scores. And you're like, this fundamentally alters the movie.

[David]

It's fucked up. When you watch, we all think about, right?

[Griffin]

You're like, well, Sherlock Jr. Is a definitive film. We all can talk about that and have the same experience. And it's like, no, are you watching the, like, the Cohen Media Group disc? Are you watching the Kino Lorber disc? Are you seeing it projected with live accompaniment? And we think about, like, film being such a finite, fixed thing and, like, the director's intent. You're seeing everything as they wanted it. When for the first couple decades, it was just like, no, this is. There's this whole big component that is one of the most emotional components.

[Ben]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin]

That is very, like, individual experience based.

[Ben]

One of the reasons I think it worked so well and was so exciting was because this movie does, as a movie, have a lot of obvious. Like, it was improvised, right? And it's so fluid and so open.

[David]

I mean, he would write things and give them to people on the day. But a lot of it is, right. It's just him capturing behavior.

[Ben]

So improvising back to it felt really appropriate.

[David]

I love it.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

Felt like.

[David]

Did you record this?

[Dan]

Just gonna ask.

[Ben]

We recorded it, but stupidly, I, like, I didn't set the levels on the zoom recorder before we recorded. It was like, really loud. So it's like all blown out and compressed. It doesn't sound. I mean, it's kind of perfect, actually, for the movie.

[David]

It does sound like the. Right.

[Ben]

Well, we got one thing right. It sounds like. Yeah, just like Hill and Empire.

[David]

I don't know. You should just do something.

[Ben]

You should, though. And the way it ended was. Well, we'll talk about that when we talk about the ending. Because we ended it in a way where I had a, like, almost like a genuinely new experience. It was awesome.

[David]

Anyway, fun having David on the show.

[Griffin]

It's always a Treat.

[David]

So I mean myself, by the way, I'm talking about having me on the show.

[Griffin]

Yeah. We don't have you on often enough.

[David]

So after all of the things we were just talking about, we have this sort of interlude with Julia Ormond is a character called Doris.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Who's talking to a police person. And she has a screwdriver inside.

[Ben]

There is.

[Griffin]

It is destabilizing. Anytime a quote unquote, like establish actor shows up in this film and you're.

[Ben]

She. She looks familiar.

[David]

She was great actor.

[Griffin]

Is a great actor. But is sadly kind of like largely known as this incredible example of like the star making machine where she was in Legends of the Fall. Right.

[David]

That was her big early Hollywood movie.

[Griffin]

And then it was like everyone in Hollywood decided she was the one and they cast her in the Audrey Hepburn role in the remake of Sabrina. And there was this New York Times article about the making of a star that's like, Julia Ormond's been going through the conveyor belt for the last year and a half. Everyone has anointed her there. Everyone's now weighing in on what her haircut should be in her dress. And this is the moment that she's going to become an A lister. And then that movie does not connect.

[David]

Is despised, I would say.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And kind of a classic. Like, what do you think you're doing remaking Sabrina in the first place? And it got her down our throat.

[Griffin]

Yes. Everyone was just like, enough of this. And now she's become someone who will pop up every couple of years. And like, she is the daughter in Benjamin Button is very good in that.

[David]

You know what, though? You love Mad Men, right?

[Griffin]

Oh, yes.

[Ben]

Mad Men.

[David]

Do you like Mad Men?

[Ben]

I like it. I don't know if I've seen all of it.

[David]

Megan's mother in Mad Men. If you remember Megan, the French Canadian girl that Don marries.

[Griffin]

Second wife.

[Ben]

Oh, okay.

[David]

She. She has this imperious French Canadian mother, Ms. Calv, who then ends up with. Spoiler alert, Roger Ster.

[Griffin]

This is the thing. She just become kind of a really interesting character actress who will pop up and you'll be like, Julia Ormond. She's still good.

[Ben]

Got it.

[Griffin]

She never stopped working. But there are these two phases of all this energy around her for her throttling. And then on the other side of her throttling way down and being like, I'll just show up and play with David Lynch.

[Ben]

Do you know who I thought she was? I thought she was the actress who did that thing where she dressed up as bugs and had sex.

[David]

Isabella Rosselli.

[Ben]

Yeah. I thought it was. Right.

[Griffin]

Yeah, yeah.

[David]

Right.

[Ben]

Okay.

[David]

And makes sense. Another sort of raven haired, you know, Euro tinged actor who kind of looked.

[Griffin]

Who was a 40s Golden Age movie starlets. They have that kind of classical beauty. Yeah.

[David]

Like. Right. Julia Orman never got to be the May, even the level of star that Isabella Rossellini was. But that was her. Right. The thing was, it's like, wow, this woman, she's a throwback. She's this. Right. The camera loves her and she's gorgeous.

[Griffin]

She is elegant. She is grace.

[David]

She also played Guinevere in First Night in that like two year explosion before. She then does smileless sense of snow and becomes a bit of a punchline. But yeah. She's sort of one refraction of this story. Right. When she appears.

[Griffin]

Well, the ripple effect. I mean, you're dealing with this kind of like broken chronology of the movie of like what happened to this woman. And then two hours later we get the scene of her finding out that this affair has happened. You're not really centered within it, but you're almost seeing kind of like these projections of the ripples of damage from small actions.

[Ben]

It's a network of associations and characters.

[David]

Right. Then we have various things that are sort of like flitting between them, making on high and blue tomorrows. Sort of flirting on set off, you know, off camera.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[David]

Justin Throw has a strange conversation with Nikki's mother. Husband. Right. Who's this kind of like bland, grumpy Polish man.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Who says. Talks about like the bonds of marriage and enforcing them and all that.

[Griffin]

But you do have. He's playing the trick. A lot of. You're deeply in a scene and then it's like, cut. Oh, that wasn't reality. It starts to create this pattern of destabilization where you can be so far into a scene and still not really know what reality you're dealing with.

[David]

And the most brilliant part of that is. Right. Wins. When they're having sex, it's all blue. And then she says this sounds like dialogue from her script.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

And Kingsley's like, what's going on? Because they are shooting the scene like she's gone the other way.

[Ben]

That's a really uncanny moment, that line. And it's really, really scary.

[David]

And that. That is really when things are. We sort of start to exit the loose frame plot framework that we're in which. Which is easier to grapple with of like, okay, they're on a movie and like reality is blurring. I get it.

[Griffin]

She kind of goes to advanced study and is like, what about the history of commodification of women as an industry?

[David]

That's when she is basically just like, completely immersed and, you know, ends up basically going into the movie. I don't know how else to describe it. Going kind of going through a portal. How would you describe it, David?

[Ben]

Like, this is when. With the grocery bag, when she sees Exxon and she walks in. And now she is the person that Harry Dean Stanton saw.

[David]

And you had the table read and you had Justin throw, like, pressing his head up against the window.

[Ben]

Right. And he can't see her. And now she is in what we thought was a prop house and is now a new reaction reality. She's in an actual house. And the reverse is like, when she looks out the window, like, there's a yard out there.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

And then it's like. Yeah. And now through the looking glass, like.

[David]

Right. I guess the closest way to understand it is she is inside the film in some sort of way, right?

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Because now we're kind of in this world where there's this sort of chorus of they're called the Valley Girls of these sort of women. Are they. You know, are they like representations of her feelings? Are they kind of like. Like an external force that's trying to help her or.

[Griffin]

One of them is Jordan Ladd, right?

[David]

I think so. I can tell you.

[Griffin]

Cousin.

[David]

Sure. Oh, yeah. Jordan Ladd, Taryn Westbrook, Kristen Care. There's a bunch of them, and I think they change sometimes. Like, it's not the same, like, group every time. Like, classic David lynch trick. They like to do things like Dance to the locomotion. Yeah. You know, although when they do that.

[Griffin]

They seemingly multiply it. It becomes like 10 of them.

[David]

Right. They like to check out each other's boobs. They like to talk about.

[Ben]

There are some great shots of Laura Dern leaned up against the wall looking at them like, what the fuck? It's so funny.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

It's the thing that I feel like has populated the Internet the most is just shots of Laura Dern head against the wall, smoking a cigarette with this kind of vacant, like, I don't know what I'm doing. Look at your face.

[Griffin]

Can we, like, take this moment to kind of dig into Laura Dern more?

[David]

Sure.

[Griffin]

Because there's. There's the stickiness of the cow campaign. Right. And part of that is, at this point, Laura Dern had gotten an Oscar nomination very young.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

For Ramblin Rose.

[David]

Ramblin Rose.

[Griffin]

But she's what, 20 or 21 in that movie.

[David]

Is she that young? Let's see.

[Griffin]

And it's born in 67.

[David]

Would have been like 23.

[Griffin]

Okay.

[David]

You know, but like. But obviously she's Hollywood royalty. She's the daughter of Bruce Stern and Diane Laddie.

[Griffin]

She's very young. When she's in Jurassic, she kind of has this like, crazy.

[Ben]

Oh, my God. She was in Jurassic Park.

[David]

Yes, but like.

[Griffin]

But like the highest gross movie as.

[David]

The female lead before Rambling Rose. She has quite a long come up.

[Griffin]

Like, it's fabulous stains.

[David]

Yeah, fabulous stains Teachers, which. She's one of the students in Mask, obviously. She's like fairly significant part in that.

[Griffin]

I think she's the best performance.

[David]

I might agree. She's good in that. And then Smooth Talk, which was like, that's breakthrough, right? This breakthrough, which is this early Sundance 80s breakout film, which is good. Recommends people sing. And then, of course, Blue Velvet is.

[Ben]

Oh, right.

[David]

The girlfriend first experience.

[Griffin]

Talks about Wild at Heart. And both of her parents, very famous established actors. Right. And she's one of these sort of like children of the industry. Industry babies, if you will. Nepo babies. Who was sort of like, I didn't have the intent to be an actor. I sort of started getting thrown into stuff in this way that I think makes people angry and envious of people who have this kind of access to the industry.

[Ben]

Because it sounds disingenuous.

[Griffin]

Well, I think she is genuine about it. But it was sort of like, I didn't want to be an actor. My parents want me to be an actor. I'm around, people notice I can't cast a role. I'm doing two lines in something, then it becomes a larger supporting role. I didn't really think of myself as an actor until I was already five or six credits in.

[Ben]

Until I saw the cow.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

And then as you're saying, there was this arc and then it's sort of like, oh, smooth Talk. Now she's kind of like fully realized owning this as sort of like a profession.

[Ben]

Right.

[Griffin]

And as a craft and whatever. And then. Yeah, works with really interesting directors, has these interesting parts. But by the time she gets to Jurassic, she's like a veteran. She's been doing it for like 10 years. And she's also 25.

[David]

Yeah, yeah. She is quite young in Jurassic park work, but she projects. I feel like she projects sort of experience partly because she's been in movies for 10 years at that point. Partly because she's.

[Griffin]

There's an.

[David]

In khakis and, you know.

[Ben]

Yeah, she's like a Super scientist.

[Griffin]

Right, right, right.

[David]

And then she kind of, you know, she kind of has a good. She's great. In a perfect world, obviously. Citizen Ruth.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

Is a great performance that gets her a lot of indie further and is incredible on that.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

But I do feel like it. It's kind of like the Kate Winslet thing after Titanic. Slightly less intense version of it where Kate Winslet really just does not make a studio film for years.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[David]

She does weird indie stuff. She, you know, works with cool directors if she wants to. She's like, she. Laura Dern doesn't really make. She makes October sky.

[Griffin]

And just the point I want to make. I feel like when you hit 2000, Laura Dern starts to enter, weirdly, a space similar to Julia Ormond, obviously, minus the backlash. Right. But of like, every two years she shows up and people are like, oh, right, Laura Dern. Laura Dern's really good. And then she kind of disappears from people's minds again. Like, one of her only studio movies in that era in the 2000s is Jurassic Park 3, where she has this bizarre role where, like, that movie's marketing is fucking. Sam Neill is back. Alan Grant is back. She's not in the marketing at all. I remember going to the theater and being like, she's in this too. And then her role is she's now a stay at home mom with two kids. Yeah.

[David]

Someone calls her on the phone and is like, hey, can you get a plane over?

[Griffin]

I don't really do that Jurassic thing anymore. And she's in like four scenes, but all within a kitchen.

[Ben]

Huh.

[Griffin]

And. And yeah, then she'll, like, pop up in things and be good When We Don't Live Here Anymore comes out a movie that had a lot of Sundance buzz and people were like, this performance is incredible. David Denby writes this very horny review that says she's maybe the best American actress. And then it's like she kind of dissipates again. This movie felt like this sort of monument built to, like, take Laura Dern seriously. We need to stop taking her for granted. And it works in some ways. I think it works. She continues on this other path. And then I feel like it took another five or six years before it's five years.

[David]

I think it's.

[Griffin]

It's starting with Wild. Really?

[David]

No, no. I think it starts with enlightened.

[Griffin]

It's like, oh, you're right.

[David]

It's like she does this and then. Yeah, she continues on the path, I think that she largely chooses for herself if she does stuff, if she Wants to. And it's often odd little indie movies or whatever. And then she does the HBO show Enlightened, which is not. I mean, in the middle. She did play Katherine Harrison Recount, which is kind of the other kind of Laura Dern thing. Like, Laura Dern can give you really big sassy acting if you want it. Right. She can do other stuff too, but she can play like a. A big sort of goofy part.

[Griffin]

She's in Mike White's you're the dog where she goes pretty big. But she's incredible in that. And I remember that being experience for me of being like, where's Lord Dern been? Why isn't everyone using her all the time? He writes enlightened for her off of.

[David]

Did you ever see Enlightened? I think you'd love it.

[Ben]

I did. That's where she. Working in an office and she wants to organize or get political and she's just like annoying the out of everybody.

[Griffin]

And it was two seasons of people being like, why aren't people watching Enlightened? Why isn't this winning Emmys and it.

[David]

Never kind of invented the half hour dramedy.

[Ben]

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin]

I think you're right.

[David]

Where people are like, I don't get it. It's not that long. But it made me feel sad too.

[Ben]

Right.

[David]

And. But it is kind of funny, but also like, I'm really moved what's going on here. Right.

[Griffin]

Then off of that. Wild is one of those famously short amount of screen time versus nomination performances where she's just kind of undeniable in three flashback scenes. And it feels like everyone going like, right, we should celebrate every single time she does.

[Ben]

What is Wild?

[David]

It's an adaptation of the Cheryl Strayed memoir starring Renee Zell. Sorry, Reese Witherspoon, not Renee Zell.

[Ben]

Witherspoon. It's like the Appalachian trailers. Yeah.

[David]

It's a movie I think is magnificent and people put it in the sort of chick movie basket or the. Yeah, good.

[Griffin]

Not great fantasy project to get an Oscar nomination showcase.

[David]

I've seen it several times. I think it is an incredible movie, which is shocking to me given that I largely despise the work of the man who made it. I. He seemed like a nice guy and he died, which is very sad. John Mark Valet.

[Griffin]

But who then does Big Little Lies, which she's also in the best show. This web of collaborators who are going like, I need to build more shit for Laura Dern.

[Ben]

Right. Yeah. Wild.

[Griffin]

She's Reese Witherspoon's dead mother. And I Think she truly has, like, seven minutes of screen time.

[David]

Very brief. She's this luminous. Her mother is gone at this point, but it's. She's this luminous presence in her memory.

[Griffin]

It's like three flashbacks.

[David]

Perfect. Laura Dern. Just like, she's like a planet.

[Griffin]

She's undeniable.

[Ben]

But that's.

[Griffin]

Everyone leaned in and were like, we have to nominate this. Right? I know it feels insane because she's not in it very much. It was seen as a slightly surprising nomination.

[Ben]

It was like the guy in into the Wild.

[Griffin]

Yes.

[Ben]

What's his name?

[Griffin]

Holber.

[Ben]

He has one scene, but didn't he get nominated more?

[Griffin]

But, yeah, scenes.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[David]

He's so amazing in that movie, but says he wants to be his grandpa. That. That movie. There's another movie. I love that movie.

[Griffin]

Yeah. 2010 feels like Laura Dern finally, like, fucking achieving icon status, right?

[David]

And then it's like, right, she wins an Oscar. She's in Star Wars.

[Ben]

She's, you know, what did she win an Oscar for?

[David]

She won an Oscar for Marriage Story, where I feel like she's sort of.

[Ben]

Oh, she's the crazy lawyer, divorce lawyer.

[David]

It's kind of like the big little lies. It's like, right. She can give you this, like, big comic.

[Ben]

Right.

[David]

You know, annoying personality or funny personality. You know, like, she's been doing that her whole life.

[Griffin]

This in, like, a cynical way, but it almost feels like a calculated. You know, what? If someone gave Laura Dern this kind of monologue, she would win an Oscar. Like, Bombach was just like, it's just waiting there for someone to take advantage of. If you just have her do this for 15 minutes in this kind of structure, people are going to flip out.

[David]

I feel like she's kind of at her most workaholic now. It might just also be because, you know, actors get older, they're less occupied by, you know, their kids or, you know, they go into the other side.

[Griffin]

Beloved. I. I feel like everyone just values her so much now, as they should. And even, like that show Palm Royal, the Kristen Wiig lure, Dern acquired it and developed it and then was like, I'm too busy to star in it. I'll ask Kristen Wiig to do it. I have other shoots to do. Like, she's kind of just fucking been on top of the world for a number of years now, I would argue.

[Ben]

So let me ask you a question about her Inland Empire.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

So obviously we're saying, like, David lynch obviously isn't. Loves Laura Dern, right.

[Griffin]

Is an incredible on camera Presence and even shot on the worst camera in the world is just radiant, as we're saying.

[Ben]

But given the fact that she never really knew what was going on, I think think this. Is it still acting? Like, is it still good acting? Well, I.

[Griffin]

This is my whole take on why this movie is about acting and why that's what he ends up finding as the spine across it as he's watching her react to this method of shooting is like. This is in a weird way the purest form of acting. But also, how many people on earth can do this? Like, so few. It's like maybe double digits for like. Like, who can hold the camera, understand how a shoot works, understand the mechanics of acting, but also on camera acting, which is a very different thing. And be this quick of a process of material. Be able to identify the truth in a scene without any real time to study it or crack it, which is.

[Ben]

How lived experience is. Now that I think about it, when we act in quotes, live our lives, express ourselves, we don't have, like, you can have a sense of what the arc of your life is like or what this weekend is going to be like, but we don't have a screenplay. So I guess in a way it does make sense. This was shot like day by day, the way life is lived, right? Day by day. And she just had to react in any given moment, I guess, to how she was feeling.

[Griffin]

And that also means you kind of got to be perfect in every take, right?

[Ben]

Yeah, right.

[Griffin]

Because there's no sense of intentionality or like strategy she can apply to how she constructs this performance. It's like in the way people saying that, like, acting is reacting and just being present, responding to your scene partner. It's like that's what she's doing with David lynch, right? He's her scene partner, right. She's reacting to what he's giving her. And I think he's just going every day. It's why he fucking rented a cow. Where he's like, I've watched the mechanics of this woman working. I give her nothing. And suddenly she gives you something that like most actresses would spend four months studying to crack that model up. Like, how is she capable of this? And also, as one of these people who is not by all accounts precious about her process is not a method actor, quote unquote, any way we think of, right? It's just like, I don't know, I just sort of feel it and I get there.

[Ben]

So you like this performance?

[Griffin]

I think it's incredible. I think it's stunning. I think she's one of the best actors alive. And I think she can be so entertaining. Entertaining. Which now she gets a lot of credit for that. Sometimes the, like, actual grit of the depth she can go to if she wants to. She doesn't often do this sort of torrid, tortured shit.

[Ben]

Right.

[Griffin]

Is taken a little for granted, I think. I know I keep saying this over and over again, but I think this film is so fascinating in her arc. And much like Mulholland Drive, there is this feeling in both cases of these narratives of these women who are just like, I am waiting for the opportunity to show everyone what I have in me. Which is most struggling actors is this feeling of like, I got all this shit bottled in me. I got these feelings I need to get out of my system, and someone just needs to give me the space for catharsis.

[Ben]

You're talking about the characters in the movies or the actual working actors who are collaborating with David?

[Griffin]

The characters in the movie, I think.

[Ben]

Like, when Naomi Watts has that incredible audition.

[Griffin]

Naomi Watts is interesting because it's a complete overlap of she, the actress is feeling the exact same thing the character's feeling. This is her chance. Lord Dern, I don't think, is feeling that Lord Dern is like, this is a fun experience of working with my buddy David.

[Ben]

Yeah. We're working on a little project together.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

But what she's playing is someone who. It does feel like in the immediate pressure of I got this big audition, it's like, is this a chance for something different for me? Maybe it's not the Naomi Watts. I'm unknown, and this is gonna make me immediately a star. But it's like, is there a thing inside of me I haven't gotten out yet? And he's like, these two movies back to back with some years in between. Both of them had very bizarre processes to getting to the finish line. Are both sort of about this sense of desperation, of if you really have something you want to say in an industry that is kind of, like, inherently ugly, evil feeds on that. Desperation feels lecherous and predatory. Even just every cut to Harry Dean Stanton's face is like, is this guy a problem? They're constantly just being some guy in a suit watching you and nodding approval approvingly or, like, frowning like the sphinx.

[Ben]

And then hitting you up for money.

[David]

Right.

[Griffin]

And then she's, like, spiraling into despair.

[David]

But I also feel like there's this sense of, like, this is a different take, but it's like you have this melodrama. They're Making. It's like, what if we keep tunneling down into a story, does it always come back to some sort of folktale that is like once there was a child and he went into the world and then there was evil.

[Ben]

He saw his reflection. Isn't that what it is? He saw his reflection and evil followed him into the world.

[David]

And you're like, right, right, right, right. If we just sort of like keep dissembling and iterating right. Over and over on some like, oh, I've written this melodrama and it's, you know, indicative of this and it's a reference to that and it's like, right, but at the end of it, all of the big tunnel, it's like we've been telling the longest story forever and the story is just like there's evil in the world or a person transgressed against something.

[Ben]

The Twin Peaks stuff.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Which is also interesting when so much of Lynch's work is. I'm starting with like a well worn, proven American genre staple and going into those cliches and then starting to pull them apart, reconstruct them. But I'm starting with a very basic noir setup or whatever it is. A woman in trouble, right?

[David]

He's like, the film's about a woman in trouble. And you're like, yes, sure it is. Laura Dern is in trouble. But then also the film stipulated with a person, a woman we don't know the name of or really anything about, in a hotel room who's clearly in trouble. And then we're seeing this snowy Polish street suddenly or whatever and like, you know, we're seeing the Valley. I don't know, like there's just lots of versions of the same thing happening in different reflections. And that's, that's what the movie's about to me.

[Dan]

Who's the wide eyed actor? I think he's a Polish actor who plays, I think, her husband.

[David]

Sure, yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[Dan]

Like when she is sort of inhabiting the working class version of.

[Ben]

When they're in the little house and they're having their domestic thing. Yeah, right.

[David]

It's this. Right. That's the same guy who's the fancy Polish guy.

[Ben]

It's the same actor who is her husband in real life.

[Griffin]

He's just opening her. His eyes much wider.

[Ben]

Yeah, right.

[Dan]

He is, is really striking, but scary. He's a scary presence.

[Ben]

Yeah, there's some intense, intense presences in this movie.

[Dan]

There are some mugs.

[Ben]

Yeah, there's some mugs. There's some mugs up in this one. Yeah. For sure.

[Dan]

Because the thing is, I'm also looking up and, you know, we've been at it.

[David]

Yeah.

[Dan]

Are we gonna get through it?

[David]

We are. Because it. At this point, there's less now it's.

[Ben]

Mostly vibes like, you don't have to worry about like, oh, I forgot the car chase where they realized that the diamond was actually in the right.

[Griffin]

I'll tell you the shot that's blew my mind. It's when he does the slow camera pan away from Laura Dern that within the shot transitions to Poland in the early 1900s.

[Ben]

That's dope. And also the match fade between the guys in Poland at the table who reposition themselves so that they're synced up with the rabbits when they. That scene is awesome.

[Griffin]

But I also. I feel like that time travel shot, basically the movie entering a portal.

[Ben]

Right, Right.

[Griffin]

It is the kind of thing I have seen so many, like, I don't know, the fucking. The walk or Gangster New York does a version of at the end where it's like, we're good staying in this location but traveling through time. And now I'm used to so many versions of this shot that are like big showcase of cgi.

[David]

Skyscrapers get built right.

[Griffin]

Or fall or whatever it is. And this is just truly. He's on her face. The camera is clearly on a tripod. It swivels. And as it swivels, the color pulls out of the image. It goes to sepia. And then you see like a horse drawn carriage.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

And then on the other side of the camera when it lands here are women dressed in period clothing. And you're like, oh, I guess we travel through time. It's so simple.

[David]

You're. No, it's a good call. You're making me want to rewatch it. It is very cool. And I do think, like you said, he does get so much out of. It's so freaky being there.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

The landscape is so cool and.

[Griffin]

Can I throw up my quick.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

So I. I was talking to someone, a native of Warsaw when I was there, and I was like, in the downtown area. And I was like, I find it so relaxing here. I'm used to cities like living New York, where it's this tightly compressed grid and everyone's crammed in and everyone's rushing. And here, like, the streets are so wide, the sidewalks are so wide. Everything feels so open. Why aren't all cities built like this? And she was like, well, they built it like this for the rallies. And I was like, that's why this place Is sad. Like, there's like that. Where anything you can point at, where you're like, there's an interesting vibe to. No cities laid out like this. And you're like, that's the thing they destroyed. We built it this way because of this. That's the last vestige. This is the only building that didn't get burned down.

[Ben]

Right?

[Griffin]

And there is. I just think there's something he's tapping into of that cultural identity. I just feel like, in my experience, the people of Poland just carry that shit with them. It just feels deep in there. And the fact that he's using so many Polish actors. He's not just hiring actors to put on Polish accents.

[David]

The first thing he shot in Poland, when he's there, you know, taking pictures of factories and shit. And he's like, I kind of want to write something and film it, is the scene where it's the three old men at the table. And that was just right. That was like a fragment that he came up with. And he's like, like, I'm gonna go from here. But, like, that's. That's the beginning of whatever this genesis is. She burns, you know, she. The Valley Girls. Tell her to maybe burn a hole in a. You know, in. In. In some tights or whatever and look through the silk. And we start to see, right, Things like the rabbits again, the lost girl again, the husband attacking his wife or mistress. Things like her talking, you know, the Laura Dern monologuing to Mr. K. Right? All of that stuff starts to pop.

[Ben]

That's the stuff at table when she has the accent and she's bruised up.

[Dan]

She's saying her a lot.

[Ben]

Yeah, she sure is.

[David]

The locomotion is happening. Then also, they dance to At Last, I think the Etta James song, You know. What else have we got?

[Dan]

There's a Beck song at one point, right?

[David]

One of the ones when we land.

[Ben]

On the Hollywood Boulevard.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

Yeah, that's later. Yeah, that's. You have the backyard party where some of the Valley Girls are there, where Smithy, her husband in this reality, has. Has ketchup all over his shirt and he's.

[Dan]

They're all talking absurdly and, like, very surreal. Like, have the hot dog.

[David]

That is definitely. I think if you are just like, I'm gonna go see a movie tonight at the IFC Center. When you're like, should I. I'm not. And I have no disdain for this. Like, should I leave?

[Griffin]

Like, right.

[David]

Have I just completely. Like. I just feel like I have spaghetti in front of me.

[Griffin]

I'VE read the temperature wrong. This is not the night I wanted. Right, right.

[Ben]

Like, yeah, because sometimes with David, like, especially in the return, when it's like 20 minutes of a guy sweeping a floor, it's like, are you fucking with me? Like, what's going on? Really? Like, come on, level with me, bro. What are we doing here? Yeah, but that's the scene. The backyard scene is important, isn't it? Because that's when Smithy's like, yeah, I'm gonna go take care of these animals with the. With this group of people, which is something that beat up. Laura Dern describes to the guy at the desk in. When she's talking. When she's talking.

[David]

The monologues, right. We're sort of seeing versions of that.

[Dan]

We should also say that she introduces the idea of the Phantom.

[David]

Yeah.

[Dan]

She's an important character in the climax.

[Griffin]

That's 3.5 stars.

[Ben]

Who she shoots. Right? Yeah, totally. The Phantom is sort of another hot mug. Intense mug.

[David]

That guy, right, is sort of the villain of the film, if you want to be.

[Griffin]

It's kind of the Thanos. Yeah.

[Ben]

Bob. Yeah.

[David]

Seems to, I guess, be, you know, the husband of the other woman, maybe. Right. Or something. You know, of the lost girl. The girl we see in the hotel room. But at one point, we see a guy with a red light bulb in his mouth being weird. That's the Phantom. But I also.

[Griffin]

He also is Axon M or whatever that.

[David]

I guess so. But also, I think the crazy iconic image of Laura Dern's face blown up on her head with the teeth.

[Ben]

On his head.

[David]

Yeah, on his. You know. That's him, right? Right.

[Ben]

Yeah, that's the boy who saw his reflection and evil followed him into the world. It's like one of the great David lynch doppelganger moments where it's like, oh, right. Everyone in your dream is you, right?

[David]

Yes. Right. Yes. That's a good way of thinking about it. At some point, someone mentions Inland Empire, which is really funny because it almost feels like late in the movie, they're like, has anyone actually said Inland Empire in this movie?

[Ben]

David lynch is like, there's one thing we forgot to shoot. Someone has to say the name of the movie.

[David]

Even though from my limited understanding of la, this is not really set in the Inland Empire. It's mostly.

[Ben]

No, it's set in la. Yeah. It's set in Hollywood on the soundstage.

[David]

I think someone said to David lynch, like, I grew up in the Inland Empire. And he was like, inland Empire.

[Ben]

I mean, it's a Perfect. It's a perfect name for a David lynch movie because Inland Empire sounds like a poetic way of saying, like your dream space. Right, Right.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

What is. It's just this giant, boring.

[Ben]

It's what you drive through to. To get to Palm Spring Springs.

[Dan]

Oh.

[Ben]

But it's huge. I mean, it's a huge metropolitan area. It's flat. It's east. East of la, you know.

[Dan]

Huh.

[David]

And it's a lot of desert and then just like super kind of. Right. Areas and. Right. You know.

[Ben]

But the movie is not set in. I mean.

[David]

No, it's not.

[Ben]

Not geographically. Psychologically. I think it's supposed to be like an inland. Inland empire. Right, Right.

[David]

If you think David was pointing at his noggin.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

That The. The real inland.

[Ben]

Yeah. It's as in. As you can get.

[David]

I can't get through all of this. But, you know, what we're eventually getting to is sort of the. The quote unquote end of On High and Blue Tomorrows, where suddenly Laura Dern, sue whoever, is with the Valley girl, she's back in her house and she sort of gets transported to the streets of la. She's being attacked by the Valley Girls or yelled at. She's.

[Griffin]

They review each other's.

[David]

No, no, that. I'm saying, like, you know, I'm saying like the sort of.

[Ben]

And I'm a whore, I'm afraid. And she starts laughing. Yeah.

[David]

You know, she ends up being sort of beaten. The Mr. K monologues kind of end and she gets, like, stabbed and dies on the street with Terry Crews there.

[Griffin]

Yeah. I'm glad he made it.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

You know, like, just because David lynch, you know, the work output slows down the last 20 years.

[Ben]

Right.

[Griffin]

There are a lot of modern actors who never got to work with him, which is why you get so many people jumping in on the return. Just like. I'm glad Terry Crews made the cut. I'm glad he's.

[Ben]

Was he famous at this point?

[David]

He was a former football player, but.

[Griffin]

He had done like, White Chicks and Right after Next.

[Ben]

Isn't he an idiocracy? When was idiocracy? That's true.

[David]

He probably died.

[Griffin]

Did, I think, narrowly escape into four theaters that the same year, 2006.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Right.

[David]

But he's basically Everybody Hates Chris started the year before.

[Griffin]

He's a growing kind of comedy character actor.

[David]

I mean, I remember when I saw him in Everybody Hates Chris because I think I didn't see Idiocracy till a couple years later on, like, video or whatever. I was like, where did they find this guy? This guy is hilarious.

[Griffin]

That was my feeling in White Chicks, a film I mostly find dire.

[David]

And then you're like, be kind of brilliant.

[Griffin]

That's the thing. If we rewatch it now, we're gonna have a Jack and Joe reappraisal. Yeah, he's incredible in that. Yeah. Basically playing the nobody's perfect role anyway.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Terry Crews is in there.

[David]

Yeah. There are these three street people, is what they're called in the credits. One of them played by the actress, maybe sort of singer called Nay, who is later in Twin Peaks of the Return, gives this incredibly long monologue about a friend of hers that is very compelling but completely inscrutable, at least about.

[Ben]

Nico, her friend, who you assume is like a sex worker, something. And then something very bracing, and it's really, really awful. Physical description when she says, yeah, she has a hole in her vagina that goes into her intestine. And it's like this really grounding, horrifying moment where you realize, like, for all of David Lynch's love of his female characters and all the violence that happens to them throughout all so many of his movies, and just how awful, awful men can be to women. And then. But it. But it also so often feels allegorical in a way as graphic as the visuals can be. But something about this line of dialogue is just like, oh, right, this is what violence does.

[Griffin]

Right.

[Ben]

Does that make sense? It's, like, very, very striking and bracing and sobering.

[Griffin]

I mean, I keep going back to this, but, like, the discourse after Blue Velvet of people arguing over whether the film was exploitative.

[Ben]

Right.

[Griffin]

I think in every film after that, when he wants to deal with violence against women as a subject, he really feels a responsibility to be like, I'm not dealing with this as a plot point.

[Ben]

Right.

[Griffin]

I actually need to engage with the effects of this.

[Ben]

Right.

[Griffin]

You know, like. And part of it is, I think him genuinely trying to. And this is so much what Twin Peaks is about, wrap his head around, like, how can this level of evil exist? How can people perpetuate this level of harm? You know, And. And how do people survive that? I think that's the other side of it.

[Ben]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Griffin]

Right. How do people go on from this sort of thing? And that whole monologue is being delivered to Lord Dern, who is then off camera, you're not sort of cutting back her reaction shots.

[David]

The actor.

[Griffin]

There's almost like five consecutive minutes where you're holding on her and almost forgetting Laura Dern is there and she's been stabbed at this Point.

[Ben]

Yeah. She's bleeding to death.

[Griffin]

Bleeding out on the street. And this, like, the film reaches, like, such a pinnacle of discomfort. And what you're saying, that sort of like absolutely barren, hollow despair. And then you see the fucking seat of a camera crane and Jeremy Irons calling put and doing the fucking picture rap.

[Ben]

Applause Right?

[Griffin]

It is so destabilizing to have the rug pulled out from under you and be like, yep, movies, right? Acting, right? Which is, of course, what you're fucking watching.

[Ben]

And you would think for a lot of directors, they'd be like. They would end there and be like, good enough. It was all a movie.

[David]

Instead, the film continues for a while. Laura Dern does not speak again in the film. She's like, in a strange fugue state for the rest of the movie. It's clear that what me saying it's clear right now.

[Ben]

It's totally obvious that what actually happens.

[David]

Is it feels like, like whatever, recursive kind of like dream. She was locked in. She has exited to some extent.

[Ben]

You read it as, okay, we are back, we're back.

[David]

And, like, she went into this loop and, like, was sort of moving through worlds or moving through stories also very.

[Griffin]

Fucking Mulholland Drive of like, right, we've landed.

[David]

And yeah, now she. She seems to be sort of empowered or in, you know, filled with some sort of knowledge because she then goes to find the Phantom and destroys it, right? Essentially, yep. Like, we're watching her. She goes into this movie theater, right? And then she.

[Ben]

This whole sequence is so awesome.

[David]

Sees herself on the screen. It is incredibly awesome. This is right? The point at which, if you did make it through the middle chunk of the movie, you're kind of like, I don't know what's going on, but I am right? So trust transfix you.

[Griffin]

Also in this section get. Am I wrong? The lost woman back in the hotel room. Now, instead of watching rabbits, watching the movie we've been watching. Yeah.

[Ben]

And then Laura Dern comes in and kisses her. And that sends the lost girl or lost woman back into the house, which is for me. And reunites with her husband and the son.

[Griffin]

A key part of my reading, which is like, why? Why do this? Why pursue this? Why? Almost like what you were saying about, like, this weird tradition of dressing up up and entertaining strangers in the dark. Like, why make a movie? Why try to act? Is like, in that instant, instant, a woman sitting on a bed in a hotel room after a bad experience, flipping through channels, lands on something that for 45 seconds helps her process her, which Isn't to say that art is therapy for others, but that it's about finding things that you can actually connect with in some way, you know, that help sort of reveal things to you or make you make sense of your own life. Life that aren't just reflecting back the things you know you like, but are challenging in a way that pulls something new out of you that sometimes can be productive.

[Ben]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[David]

And I mean, I don't know how to describe exactly what it is, but she moves through these sort of industrial spaces and doors.

[Griffin]

Lynchian.

[David]

And confronts the Phantom, who is first. The Phantom Man. Right. And then is this odd projection of her face and she.

[Ben]

Which is another thing I remember from seeing it in 2007 on the big screen. First we see her face as she runs towards the camera along that pathway, and then we see that same face kind of crappily put over the Phantom's face. I gotta say, no one does shitty FX better than David lynch in the Return. When she opens her face, like, he has such. He knows exactly how crappy special effects can be where it actually somehow, like, adds to the uncanniness or the drama of it. That it kind of just looks like. Like, even the title that. I don't know what he. What font this is. Inland Empire. It's like Helvetica, but, like, he compressed it and it's, like, so janky, but it's, like, so great.

[Griffin]

I was gonna say the poster is very graphic. Design is my passion. It absolutely works. Weird emotion, actually.

[David]

I don't know his process, but he does kind of feel like a guy who just played around with, like, iphoto in the early 2000s on a Mac, like, messing with pixels.

[Griffin]

But that's his whole David Lynch.com era is just like, what can I do with this new fancy computer machine?

[David]

When I talked to Jane Schoenbrunn about. I saw the tv. Like, great film. Great, Right. They told me that so much of the VFX conversations were that they were too good because it's kind of impossible for them to not be pretty good even on a lower budget these days.

[Ben]

Right, Exactly.

[David]

How do we degrade this without it feeling too insane? You know? Like, to what extent? No, show me that earlier rendering you had. That looked fucked up. Why did you, you know, not why did you clean it up? But, like, can we get it back to that?

[Griffin]

You know, it's what I find so interesting about what feels like a truly, like, new wave of. For 20 or 30 years, we've had people who are influenced by David Lynch. But it often feels like they're trying to copy Lynchian stuff rather than finding their own version of what lynch was able to express. And rather than trying to copy his visuals or language, they're starting to figure out their own language. But tapping into a similar creative process or finding things that have some weird uncanniness or some inexplicable power, like, that movie is a great example of that for me, where I'm just like, have you seen that film? I saw TV glow.

[David]

You like it? I think.

[Ben]

I think it's really depressing, isn't it? It's about two bonding over.

[David]

I don't think you would really find it super depressing.

[Griffin]

Oh, it's got some of the absolute hollowed out shit.

[David]

It is a melancholy, too upsetting, too disintegrating.

[Ben]

I can't get hollowed out too often, but the next time I'm due for a hollowing. Check it out.

[David]

Yeah, yeah. And so after destroying the Phantom, we're, you know, we wind towards the end. Seems like the lost girl is freed. Like, it feels like the rabbit. Nikki goes to the rabbit's house.

[Ben]

Four, seven.

[David]

She goes through the door and is in their place. And she's like, you say, ends up back on the couch, smiling, wearing a gown. And then we have a lovely dancing scene. Laura Herring is there. Natasha Kinsky is there.

[Ben]

Yeah, my man. Sawing the log. Twin Peaks. Shout Out.

[David]

Yeah, you know, a lot of. Anyway, it's really good. And people exit, being like, that was great and I loved it. I don't know.

[Griffin]

$24 million. Number one at the box store.

[Ben]

Let me tell you what happened. My experience of the end of the movie, watching it for the third time, when we were playing along to it, something really interesting happened. So at this point, we've been engaging with the movie for like, what is like 2 hours and 45 minutes. And now we reach this. This final sequence, which is now. It is so explicitly David lynch dealing with his. Some of his favorite themes, which is people watching other people through the radiator, through the closet door, on screens, on TV screens. And now Laura Dern is like watching herself. She. First she sees a snippet of the movie she was in. Then she sees herself and she goes up the stairs. All this crazy stuff is happening. So we're playing, like, making noises and sounds, all this stuff. Playing music. I remember that the music in the actual film is like a ballad. It's like a really melodramatic, beautiful, traditional song, right, that he probably co wrote with somebody So I had this little tape loop of some old snippet of a symphony or something. It's like orchestral strings, but it's just a little loop. It's like two seconds or something. So it's just looping and looping with, like, an echo pedal, like, making it get bigger and bigger and more abstract. And it's like we're reaching this climax, and drummer's going crazy on the cymbals and everything as we're watching Laura Dern watching herself. And it's like we know everything is wrapping up because we watched the movie. Like, we know where it's headed. It's headed to this resolution. Something really. A really great accident happened, which is that we stopped playing too soon. We stopped playing before the end of the movie. So that that final shot of Laura Dern in her blue dress sitting on the sofa looking at us, you're hearing, like, this echo fade away and the symbols fade away. And then we just kind of like. Because we're facing the screen. We've been facing the screen the whole time. We kind of just sat in silence and looked at Laura Dern looking at us. And I, like, I got goosebumps. It was a really great moment because it was like, so, you know, and also just thinking about, like, I've known, like, I've fucking, like, watched Eraserhead like, 34 years ago. Like, David lynch has been such. I'm not a completist, sure, I'm not a super fan, but it's like this guy has been a part of my adult life and a certain part of my sensibility, like, my whole life. And now we've just, like, engaged with this movie in a way that I've never engaged with the movie before. This movie is the last move. Could be the last movie made by a guy who is so into the porousness between dreams and realities and self and doppelganger and all these things and screens and watching and being watched. And now it's like this thing has ended. And we're just looking at Laura Dern and she's looking at us as if we had. Just as if it had been, like, an honest collaboration. The spirit of this movie, the fact that he's so freaking creative. Like. Like there are a lot of great auteurs and great directors. Like Paul Thomas Anderson isn't pointing a stick at a painting with a ball attached, trying to figure out if the painting is done, you know, like, this is a true artist. Yes, this guy is a true artist.

[David]

He has tunneled into another dimension in A way.

[Ben]

And it was so.

[Griffin]

And it has had a monastic, almost commitment to the idea of what it means to be an artist as a way of life. Not just I make art, but like, this is my. My primary identity.

[Ben]

Yeah, totally. And there was something so cool and uncanny, but like, in a happy way to be facing Laura Dern as if we had all just finished. Like, we did it. We're back. Laura Dern is back on her sofa. A woman in trouble can relax for a fucking minute, you know, for once. And we. Our ears are ringing. Like we're. Yeah, it's like that kind of feeling. And just sitting in silence because we had muted the movie and just looking at Laura Dern and it was almost like. Because so much of David lynch is about these. Right. Portals, openings, passages, keys. I had this crazy feeling that the world of the movie, like when you're watching a movie, you know that the world of the movie is this two dimensional plane that the light is being projected on and you kind of enter into it. But in this moment, I had this crazy feeling that the world of the movie is moving towards me in a third dimension. Like, I'm in it now. I don't, like, you know what I mean? Like. Like, it was just. I don't know how to explain it really, but it was like, holy. Like, we're kind of in this movie because this is a movie about moving between planes and realities. And like, we kind of did that. Like, when it was over, I said, you know what? I think I love this movie. Like, I love Inland Empire. It gave me such a special experience of engagement and creativity and being in active conversation with the movie that is really difficult, if not impossible to quote, understand. But by using a nonverbal technique of noise making and music making to really try to get a handle on it, it was so awesome. And I'm so grateful to David lynch for being a somewhat commercially viable director who can make something that can kind of like change the way I engage with movies. Like, this dude is the greatest living American director. Like, there is no one like him. There's no one like him. No one can do what he did.

[David]

You're right.

[Ben]

In part because of historical accident, in part because, like, he was an Eagle Scout who got into transcendental meant, like all these particulars. Like, he's just the greatest. I mean, he's the greatest.

[David]

I mean, you're just like ramping up. You just like keep finding another.

[Ben]

When I think about it, it's just like, so terrific. Like, what a nut job this guy. Is. And yet he has so much love for humanity. It's so inspiring.

[David]

You're right. That's. That's the thing is dark and despairing and hollowed out as it can get. It's not cynical and it's not like punishing.

[Ben]

No. It's not like, you know, like Neil Abute's always like, look at this play about how shitty people are. Oh, what you can't handle what ass.

[Griffin]

It's like point at dog and go, that's dog. It smells.

[Ben]

Exactly. Want to smell? Agree.

[Griffin]

Shitty people are bad.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

Who cares? Can I we. You know, JJ puts so much into all these dossiers or researcher who is fired, of course, and much more than we can ever say on Mike. And in our Elephant man episode, which was 15 years ago, I think approximately, there was a quote that has really stuck with me that I forgot to bring up in the episode. And I've been like, when is there going to be a relevant time for me to bring this back?

[David]

Here's the. What's the quote?

[Griffin]

But it's stuck in my cry. I haven't pulled it up here. And it feels your. Your manifesto you just went on feels like the perfect on ramp to this.

[Ben]

Okay. And then I have a quote.

[Griffin]

You even. You talk about him being a semi commercial artist. Right?

[Ben]

Right.

[Griffin]

The man who largely, like, helps him transition that state is Mel Brooks.

[Ben]

Yes.

[Griffin]

A guy.

[Ben]

Yes. Such a great story.

[Griffin]

Then takes his name off of the movie because he's like, I don't want people to get the wrong expectation.

[Ben]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

But his famous tale of like Stuart Kornfeld showing him Eraserhead as like, you want to see the we. Weirdest shit I've ever seen in my life. And then Mel Brooks is like, this is a real filmmaker. This isn't some guy making some weird gonzo thing. There's like a real filmmaker here. He could make a studio movie. Right. And then the whole arc we've gone on, obviously it's not done. Next four weeks will be Twin Peaks the Return. But this is his final feature film as of recording. Mel Brooks has this quote. He's from 2001, many, many years after Elephant man, looking back on it. And he says, I felt I was dealing with a true artist with David Lynch. I felt that he was as close to the phenomenon of life and why we're here and why we have to die as any artist I've ever met.

[Ben]

Perfect.

[Griffin]

Yeah, it's perfect. It is such a simple, direct statement for a guy who is often seen as so hard to parse and we're all going to spend decades trying to untangle the webs. But I just think like, fucking Brooks hit the bullseye there. And that's what he identified in watching his first film and working with him on his second film. And two very different movies in a lot of ways and similar in other ways, but like, in a way that's kind of what all of his fucking movies are about. It is why you cannot totally crack them because he's making movies about these unanswerable questions that fundamentally kind of don't make up sense. That kind of fundamentally are absurd.

[Ben]

Yeah. And I think.

[David]

I don't know why you guys want.

[Griffin]

Well, that's what it's about.

[Ben]

You just have to. It's just like with life, you just have to sit with it and react to it and try your best. You know, it's like the Eagle Scout way. You know, it's like Cal Brooks's other.

[Griffin]

Great line was he's like Jimmy Stewart from Mars.

[David]

Yeah, Yeah, I love that. That's right. Jimmy Stewart from Mars.

[Ben]

So when we were done watching the movie and packing up our gear and everything and just like marveling at it, like, that was so fun. Like, we gotta do this. Like, we should come up with a list of other movies that we can like do this type of engagement with this, this live scoring.

[Griffin]

Big Mama's House.

[Ben]

Big Mama's House. And. And the Clumps or the Crumps or whatever it's called.

[Griffin]

Crumbs would be good.

[Ben]

We were thinking, like, who are the other? Like, who, who are the other? Dave Lynch. Like, who else can do this? And it's like. Well, obviously no one is like David Lynch. Right. He's one of a kind.

[Griffin]

Walt Becker.

[Ben]

But I was thinking about like other artists who just have this fully realized vision. And the person I thought of was the French American artist Louise Bourgeois. You guys know her?

[David]

Of course. Yes.

[Ben]

She's famous for these huge metal sculptures of spiders.

[David]

She loves a big old spider. The movie Enemy uses them. Imagery like that. Yeah.

[Ben]

She died in her late 90s. And I was. I had. Was really struck with the comparison. So I never really liked her stuff. It's. It's like she was iconic 20th century feminist artist. She made a lot of sculptures that are like, like about being embodied and they have like protuberances and all kinds of growths and stuff. And she uses like sometimes untraditional sculptural materials. And it. It's like. Feels really intimate and really kind of like icky a lot of it. But she worked in all different types of media. So once I was in D.C. and the Corcoran Gallery was having a lifetime retrospective of Louise Bourgeois, it was like, I don't know, seven decades of her artwork. It was like a true lifetime because she was in her 90s at that point. My friend and I were like, all right, let's go check it out, see what it is. Room after room of these artifacts, of someone expressing all this inchoate, deep, deep stuff through art, through drawing, through prints, through sculptures, through things that look like they could have been sets or props in a David lynch movie. You know, the same type of interest in bodies or, like, who made video drum with that guy Cronenberg. Yeah, that kind of stuff. Like, a lot of unsettling, beautiful objects. And. And as I was going. As I was going through the exhibit, I was like, holy. This is. This is a real artist. This is someone who lived their life and ex and truly expressed it.

[Griffin]

I mean, you're asking who else fits into that bucket? The very few American artists we could describe that way. And I got one, top of my head, who's that?

[David]

Ben Hosley is pointing at that.

[Ben]

You got that Louise Bourgeois stuff.

[Griffin]

I feel that Ben is as close to the phenomenon of life and why we're here and why we have to die as any artist I've ever met.

[Dan]

Wow, that's a huge compliment.

[Ben]

So at the.

[Griffin]

So you have a similar commitment to. You said, who else would point a stick with a ball at a painting? Ben would do that.

[Dan]

I would do that.

[Ben]

You bury a pair of pants in the dirt for 20 years. Isn't that your business model? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Dan]

I'm actually. That's one of the things I'm doing in la.

[Ben]

Burying pants or digging them up, Burying them.

[Griffin]

The amount of projects that Ben has done that have might never be released. That he kind of does for himself.

[Ben]

That's the way to do it, man. Secret projects. So let me finish this story. So we. We go through this whole exhibit. It's. It's truly like a. An artist's life work. Someone that I had never really engaged with because it made me uncomfortable. And by the end of it, I'm like. Like, this is terrific. What she did is heroic. And then at the end, the thing that really put it over the edge, and I think this quote is almost like. Could be like a capstone to David Lynch's career. She had a little piece of embroidery. It was like a vintage handkerchief, like a cotton handkerchief with, like, a blue border or, like a light blue pattern. It was very old and she had embroidered text on it. It in light blue and all capital letters. Remember, I'm seeing this after I've just walked through a life's work of like really wrenching stuff. Right. Someone really seeking to express themselves, explain the world to themselves. All this kind of stuff on this. On this little handkerchief she'd embroidered. I have been to hell and back. And let me tell you, it was wonderful. Tears flowing from my eyes, like, holy shit, what an artist. What an artist. And I really do feel like David lynch has a lot of that energy, especially in this movie. Right?

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

It's just like so awesome because this is so inspiring.

[Griffin]

Process film. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ben]

It's just great.

[Griffin]

Yeah, I agree.

[Ben]

It's just great.

[Griffin]

Thank you for being here.

[Ben]

Thanks for having me back. It was great to see you guys.

[Griffin]

I just like the fact that you'd only seen this movie once and throwing you the lynch list and you saying, yeah, why not? Inland Empire gave you the opportunity to have this experience.

[Ben]

No, I. Thank you guys. No, I mean, yeah, I'm petition for that.

[Griffin]

It just feels.

[Ben]

No, it's true. It was nice to. It was nice to. Because of all the movies that I've come on to talk about, this is the one where I hadn't seen it in a long time and I wasn't sure I loved it. Like those other movies that we've talked about, like, I really love all those movies. They're terrific. You know, in this one I just remembered the memory of like, that was a total cinematic experience the first time I saw it. And so I'm really happy that I got to come back and then have this other total cinematic experience that I think is honestly going to like, kind of change the way I engage with movies going forward. So thank you to you guys.

[David]

Can you remind me the date you saw this film?

[Griffin]

March 10, 2007.

[Ben]

Oh, on Exhibit B was March 10, 2000. I saw on March 10, 2007. Three days later, I saw the Lives of Others.

[Griffin]

Good movie.

[Ben]

Yep. 310 to. We didn't even talk about the remake of 3:10 to Yuma. Another absolute banger.

[David]

Yeah. Yep. Secretly a western though.

[Griffin]

We are so excited to say that this week's box office game is brought to you by our friends at Regal with the Regal Unlimited program. It's an all you can watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in just two visits. See any standard 2D movie anytime with no blackout dates or restrictions. Here's what you should do. Follow the link in the show notes or go to the Regal app, click the unlimited banner and then follow the instructions to sign up and enter promo code. Blank check when prompted to receive your 10% discount on your first three months.

[David]

So we've done the box office game for Inland Empire before. It's the weekend the holiday came out.

[Griffin]

Oh, wild. Well, it's been a while. I wouldn't remember this, but we could.

[David]

Also do that weekend.

[Ben]

Oh, March 10th. Well, I. I won't play because I'm looking at all of the movies right here.

[Griffin]

I would do either. I genuinely don't think.

[David]

All right, well, here's the opening weekend, of course. Inland Empire opens on, like, you know, a couple screens. So it's not in the top. It opens on three screens. Yes, in fact. But number one at the box office is not the holiday, but it is a new film. It is a. A kind of amazing action historical epic directed by a guy who's good at that kind of thing, but also has a couple of, you know, behavioral.

[Griffin]

It's a Ridley Scott. No, no, no. He's got behavioral.

[Ben]

Oh.

[David]

He's done a couple bad things in his life. I don't know why I'm doing this voice to describe the actions of a sort of an awful guy.

[Griffin]

He's done a couple bad things in his life. Huh.

[David]

Had some bad opinions and also just sort of, you know, been a bad person.

[Griffin]

Yeah. It's 2006.

[David]

Yeah. Christmas time.

[Griffin]

It's December. It's Christmas time. It's historical epic, you said?

[David]

Yep.

[Griffin]

Oh, it is the very good film called Apocalypto. Yes.

[David]

Mel Gibson's Apocalypto.

[Ben]

Wow. Look at that.

[David]

You know, sort of adventure.

[Ben]

Was that you doing Mel Gibson?

[David]

It's just like that thing where it's like, how am I supposed to talk about.

[Griffin]

He's doing the. This is the voice we affect when we talk.

[David]

Yeah.

[Griffin]

So that we all like this movie.

[David]

Yeah. The movie's, in my opinion, kind of excellent. Ben, you. You're a fan of Apocalypto, right? I remember you've talked about it in the past.

[Dan]

I wouldn't say a fan, but I like that film.

[David]

Number two at the box office is a card.

[Dan]

You want more?

[Ben]

No.

[David]

Is an animated film We've covered.

[Griffin]

It's an animated film we've covered. Is it. It's not. It's a mechus.

[David]

Nope.

[Griffin]

And it's not Musker Clements.

[David]

No.

[Griffin]

And it's not a Selleck.

[David]

No.

[Griffin]

It's not a bird.

[David]

Nope. It's a guy who makes live action and animated Films, Sure.

[Griffin]

Oh, is it the motion picture Happy Feet?

[David]

It's Happy Feet. George Miller's Happy Feet Tap. A tap dancing penguin movie.

[Ben]

I've never seen that. Is that good?

[David]

It's. It's good. Yeah. I kind of prefer Happy Feet too.

[Griffin]

I was going to say your would be Happy Feet too.

[Ben]

Is that the.

[Griffin]

Is you're a happy feet 2 man if I've ever met one.

[Ben]

Is there. Is that a real sequel?

[Griffin]

Yeah, people didn't like it. Abominate Rules.

[Ben]

Is that the last movie he made before he made Mad Max Fury Road?

[Griffin]

Happy Feet two was Happy Feet one was such a success that they were like, we will let you make your Mad Max film if you make us a Happy Feet.

[Ben]

Seriously. That's what it was.

[Griffin]

And then Happy Feet two bombs. It's one of the wildest drop offs in box office from one movie to another. And Happy Feet won one best animated film. He gets an Oscar and everyone's like, oh, God, we're stuck making this Mad Max movie with him. And then he delivers the best movie ever made.

[Ben]

Wow.

[David]

Holiday is number three. Number four at the box office is a film featuring the character James Bond.

[Griffin]

That could be anything.

[David]

Still out of options.

[Griffin]

It is Casino Royale.

[David]

Yes. And number five, new this week and underperforming, Although it will have major decent legs. Okay, not major legs, but we'll get Oscar.

[Griffin]

Read your legs. Stand down.

[David]

Got a bunch of Oscar noms, including two acting noms. It's a big adventure drama, action, very serious. It's about issues.

[Griffin]

It's underperforming.

[David]

It's a huge movie star.

[Griffin]

It's a huge movie star. Is it a cruise? No, no. Is it Blood Diamond?

[David]

Blood Diamond, Yeah.

[Griffin]

There we go.

[David]

Leo DiCaprio in Blood Diamond. Then you've also got the wonderful, incredible Deja Vu at number six. You ever seen Deja Vu?

[Ben]

I don't think so.

[David]

I think you'd love it.

[Griffin]

A Sims favorite.

[Ben]

What is it about?

[David]

It's a Tony Scott film about a. Denzel Washington plays a guy who's investigating a terrorist attack and then like is exposed to strange surveillance technology that he eventually realizes is time travel technology. It's completely insane.

[Ben]

It's like Source Code with Jake Gyllenhaal. Did you ever see that one? That was one's good. He's on a train. He keeps like looping back to try to find the terrorists.

[David]

Weird.

[Ben]

It.

[Dan]

It almost feels like I've seen that movie before.

[Ben]

Nice comedy points.

[David]

You've also got unaccompanied minors, the Paul Feig kids.

[Griffin]

Film based on this American life story.

[David]

Yes.

[Griffin]

Yep.

[David]

You've also got the Nativity story.

[Griffin]

The Katherine Hardwick manger movie.

[David]

Yep. Deck the Halls. That's the jam. Lee Curtis is.

[Griffin]

Nope. That's Christmas with the cranks. This One is Danny DeVito and Matthew Broderick fighting over who has more lights on their house.

[David]

And you have the absolutely reprehensible. The Santa Clause 3. The Escape Clause.

[Griffin]

One of the most evil films ever made. A kind of Lynchian glimpse into the portals of madness.

[David]

Now when. And we really should just be done. But when David saw the film number one at the box office was a surprise smash hit R rated action movie.

[Griffin]

It would be called 300.

[David]

300, right. Did you see 300?

[Ben]

No. I was too. I heard it was fascist and so I withheld my money. I did not want to promote that ideology.

[Griffin]

Snyder's response was like, yeah, it was. It's about the fascism of our war in Iraq. Wasn't he kind of saying some shit like that?

[David]

It's not my favorite of his movie.

[Ben]

My favorite thing is to refuse to see a movie because I've decided it's fascist.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[Ben]

That's like my. That's like my. My hobby.

[Griffin]

It's good.

[Ben]

And then to announce it proudly to everybody. We actually. I never saw Happy Feet two. Actually I heard it was kind of fascist.

[David]

There's a lot of fascist movies in this top number two at the box office. Big family comedy starring Tim Allen and others.

[Griffin]

Well, it's Wild Hogs. One of the most fascist Films of the 21st.

[David]

Deeply fascist movie about the lure of motorcycle gangs. Number three is a adaptation of a young adult classic.

[Griffin]

2007 it Bridge to Terabithium.

[David]

Yeah. Hugely fascist movie. Of course. Number four, the box is too fascist. Right. I've never seen it.

[Griffin]

That's good.

[David]

I read the book. Number four is a comic book adaptation.

[Griffin]

Is it Ghost Rider.

[David]

Nick Cage and Ghost Rider.

[Ben]

Kind of a f. How do you do this? Man? Every single time.

[Griffin]

This is the matrix inside my head. What? This is why it takes so long for me to respond when you ask me a simple question is cuz I have to shut down the box office pages.

[Ben]

It's just like running like a crawl.

[Griffin]

When people ask me what time it is, I'm like I have to X out of like 17 tabs to get to it.

[David]

Yeah. Ghost Rider movie in which Peter Fonda plays the devil. It's kind of a fascist movie.

[Griffin]

A genuine thing I texted David last night is you know what I think about a lot that Angel Eyes And Shrek came out on the same weekend. It's true. It's a thing I think about way too often.

[David]

Number five of the box gives a one of the great films of 2007. David already invoked it many times.

[Griffin]

It's a holder from 2007.

[David]

No, no, no.

[Griffin]

Oh, oh. One of the early film. It's Zodiac. Zodiac, yeah.

[David]

And then you've also got norbit Fascist number 23. Fascist music and lyrics, not fascist. Breach, not fascist. Amazing Grace. It'd be rude for me to call the movie about the anti slavery movement fascist. So not fascist.

[Griffin]

Okay. Funny.

[David]

Yeah. So that's what was at. So actually, yeah, not a lot of the movie. But Zodiac you did see in the theater.

[Ben]

I loved it.

[David]

I think that's probably the only thing you probably saw. Well, the lives of others is here. As you mentioned, Pan's Labyrinth.

[Griffin]

You probably saw that a lot of the Oculus Antifasc. Very anti.

[David]

It would be really rude to call that fascist. That would be nakedly anti.

[Griffin]

You held a press conference to announce you were going to see that movie.

[Ben]

Only high school movie critic David Reese would dare to say that.

[David]

Right. You'd be like, I see through the year here.

[Ben]

Exactly.

[Griffin]

Yeah.

[David]

We are done. We have podcasted for a long time as we are want to do on our David lynch miniseries.

[Griffin]

People should watch Going Deep with David Reese now seemingly on Dick Town on.

[Ben]

Hulu and Election Profit Makers. Can I plug something?

[David]

Of course you should.

[Ben]

It's coming out before or after the election.

[David]

What y'all schedule after this is coming.

[Ben]

Out around depending on how the election goes. My podcast might still be going.

[David]

No, come on, you got to keep it going.

[Ben]

We'll see. We'll see.

[David]

Election Profit Makers is a great. Is a salve for me every week.

[Griffin]

Sim talks about it all the time.

[David]

You and the great John Kimball talking about, you know, skylines and.

[Ben]

That's right.

[David]

Foot pedals and I don't know, occasionally politics every so often and it's great. And you know, I was getting worried for you guys. Things just felt a little despairing in the Democratic Party.

[Ben]

That hollowed out feeling.

[Griffin]

Yeah, it was getting a little in the presidential Joe.

[David]

But things have changed recently and feel a little more energetic. So that's good.

[Griffin]

Here's another thing I texted you last night. Our biggest takeaway from 2024 should be that presidential campaigns, it should be illegal for them to be longer than six months.

[Ben]

Yeah, it should be like parliamentary elections.

[David]

The Brits have it right. Six weeks and out. Let's just, you know, race to the finish.

[Dan]

You can find all the links to David's work in the episode description.

[Griffin]

Great. Thank you for being here.

[Ben]

Thanks for having me. It was really fun. It's great to see all you guys again.

[Griffin]

Glad we made it happen in person. It was.

[David]

It was touch and go. We'll talk about it one day.

[Griffin]

We'll talk about it one day.

[David]

Take us out.

[Griffin]

Thank you you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. Thank you to Marie Barty for helping to produce the show.

[Dan]

Marie's gonna be posting a bunch of images on our social that've been discussed in this episode.

[Griffin]

Great.

[Dan]

And you know what? Hey, why not just get ahead of it and say we're gonna have a newsletter. It might even exist at this point.

[Griffin]

Love it. State that. Intent on like, let's make it happen. Let's Babe Ruth it be the newsletter we want to see in the world. Thank you to AJ McKean for editing the show. He's also our production coordinator. Thank you to JJ Birch for our research. Thank you to Joe Bone, Pat Reynolds for our artwork, Lane Montgomery and the Great American Novel for our theme song. You can go to blank checkpod.com for links to some real nerdy shit, including possibly our newsletter by this point in time. Tune in next week for the first chunk of Twin Peaks that return.

[David]

Is that right?

[Griffin]

Yes, that's what we're finishing out the rest of the year.

[David]

No, I know. I just couldn't remember if there was any other.

[Griffin]

I double checked.

[David]

Unless some crazy no here got moved up, in fact.

[Griffin]

I know. I'm just saying maybe. Unless Costner wants to sneak it in there.

[David]

Yeah, right, That's. That could happen.

[Griffin]

I suppose. We'll see what happens. But presumably next week, Twin Peaks, the return. Barreling straight into that to finish out lynch at the end of 2024.

[David]

Bye. Bye.

[Griffin]

Oh, and as always, yes, and as always, bye.