Miller's Crossing with Ari Aster

Summary

Podcast Summary: Blank Check with Griffin & David – "Miller's Crossing with Ari Aster"

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Podcast Information:

• Title: Blank Check with Griffin & David
• Hosts: Griffin Newman and David Sims
• Guest: Ari Aster
• Episode: Miller's Crossing with Ari Aster
• Release Date: July 27, 2025
• Produced by: Ben Hosley

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Blank Check with Griffin & David, hosts Griffin Newman and David Sims welcome acclaimed filmmaker Ari Aster to discuss the Coen Brothers' cult classic, "Miller's Crossing." The episode delves deep into the film’s intricate narrative, stylistic elements, character dynamics, and its place within the Coen Brothers' illustrious filmography.

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Overview of "Miller's Crossing"

Griffin Newman kicks off the conversation by referencing the film’s opening line about ethics:

"That's the opening line of the movie." ([00:31])

The hosts set the stage by explaining that "Miller's Crossing" is not just another entry in the Coens' filmography but a complex exploration of loyalty, betrayal, and moral ambiguity within a gangster framework.

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Themes and Symbolism

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the film's exploration of ethics and friendship. David Sims emphasizes:

"It's about ethics and game journalism. That's what this movie's about, right?" ([01:45])

However, Ari Aster offers a nuanced take, suggesting that while ethics are a surface theme, the film delves deeper into the complexity of human relationships and the moral decisions characters must navigate.

A recurring symbol in the film is the hat, which serves as a motif for status and vulnerability. David Sims reflects:

"The hat is a symbolic representation of one's standing in the world." ([52:29])

This symbolism is further explored when Ari Aster notes:

"The hat doesn't represent anything. It's a hat blown by the wind." ([50:19])

This duality showcases the Coens' mastery in embedding layers of meaning within seemingly simple elements.

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Character Analysis and Performances

Gabriel Byrne's portrayal of Tom Reagan is lauded for its stoic yet emotionally charged performance. Ari Aster praises Byrne:

"He really didn't ask for any of this... He just... he's very, very wonderful." ([63:43])

John Polito's role as a volatile and cunning enforcer is another highlight. Griffin Newman shares:

"Polito is one of the best actors to ever do it, you know?" ([67:57])

The chemistry between the characters, especially the dynamic between Tom and Leo (played by Albert Finney), underscores the film’s central themes of loyalty and betrayal. David Sims observes:

"Tom Reagan is a stoic who seems to be a brilliant improviser." ([41:08])

The guest, Ari Aster, adds depth by discussing how Finney's last-minute casting elevated the character:

"It is astonishing that he didn't get a supporting actor nomination." ([68:04])

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Coen Brothers’ Stylistic Choices and Influences

The Coen Brothers' distinctive visual style and dialogue are dissected, with David Sims noting:

"Their films are immaculately made, very designed." ([78:04])

Griffin Newman compares their work to that of Alfred Hitchcock and Stanley Kubrick, emphasizing their attention to detail and rhythmic pacing:

"They feel like the true successors to Hitchcock... Their sense of humor is something between misanthropic and Jewish." ([80:33])

The influence of Dashiell Hammett and classic noir is evident in the film's narrative structure and character archetypes. The discussion highlights how "Miller's Crossing" pays homage to these genres while infusing the Coens' unique storytelling techniques.

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Production Insights and Behind-the-Scenes

The episode provides a peek into the production challenges faced during the making of "Miller's Crossing." Ari Aster recounts:

"They couldn't keep up with Mink's dialogue. They started dropping every other sentence because they weren't going to attempt to do this." ([07:44])

The transition from Trey Wilson to Albert Finney is explored, showcasing the Coens' adaptability and commitment to authentic performances:

"They had to get Finney on set within a week after Wilson's untimely death." ([47:43])

Filming locations, particularly the choice of New Orleans for its classic architecture, are discussed as pivotal in establishing the film’s period-specific atmosphere.

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Ari Aster’s Perspectives and Filmmaking Philosophy

Ari Aster shares his admiration for the Coens and how "Miller's Crossing" has influenced his own work. He emphasizes the importance of tone management and subtle character development:

"Miller's Crossing is an exercise in tone management... Polito is doing a different size performance than everyone else in this movie." ([108:57])

Aster reflects on his own directing style, drawing parallels between the Coens' meticulous planning and his approach to creating emotionally resonant narratives.

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Symbolism and Thematic Depth

The hat motif is dissected further as a symbol of respect and power. David Sims connects it to broader societal hierarchies:

"The central tension of this movie is, can you do something that breaks the gentlemanly nature of crime?" ([54:07])

The discussion delves into how minor gestures, like the manipulation of a hat, can signify grander themes of power dynamics and ethical dilemmas within the criminal underworld.

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Legacy and Critical Reception

Griffin Newman and David Sims discuss the film’s initial reception and its enduring legacy. They highlight how early criticisms have given way to widespread acclaim:

"Raising Arizona was barely 10 years later, it had gone from overwritten stuff to one of the 50 best American comedies ever made." ([34:14])

The hosts reflect on how "Miller's Crossing" serves as a bridge between the Coens' earlier, more comedic works and their later, critically acclaimed films like "Fargo." The film's craftsmanship and thematic richness are celebrated as key reasons for its lasting impact.

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Key Takeaways and Conclusion

The episode wraps up with a comprehensive appreciation of "Miller's Crossing" as a testament to the Coen Brothers' ability to blend genre homage with original storytelling. Ari Aster underscores the film’s role in shaping modern cinema’s approach to complex character studies and ethical narratives.

David Sims concludes:

"Miller's Crossing is such a successful tribute that I put it with those classic gangster films. It fits into the essence of the genre while standing out as a meticulously crafted piece of art." ([58:49])

The hosts express their enthusiasm for future discussions, ensuring listeners that the deep dive into the Coens' filmography will continue with more insightful episodes.

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Notable Quotes

• Griffin Newman [00:33]: “I was trying to see if there was a hi hat; it's my favorite thing in this movie.”

• Ari Aster [00:36]: “I think people need to say that more.”

• David Sims [41:08]: “He seems to be a brilliant improviser.”

• Ari Aster [50:19]: “It's an image that came to us that we like.”

• Griffin Newman [65:00]: “The sound design, the pacing, it's like it's underwater.”

• David Sims [54:07]: “The central tension of this movie is, can you do something that breaks the gentlemanly nature of crime?”

• Ari Aster [108:57]: “Polito is doing a different size performance than everyone else in this movie.”

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Final Thoughts

This episode of Blank Check with Griffin & David offers a rich, multifaceted exploration of "Miller's Crossing," blending enthusiastic analysis with expert insights from Ari Aster. Whether you're a seasoned film aficionado or new to the Coen Brothers' work, this discussion provides a comprehensive understanding of the film's enduring significance in cinematic history.

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Transcript

[Griffin Newman]

Blank Check with Griffin and David.

[David Sims]

Blankjack with Griffin and David. Don't know what to say or to expect.

[Ari Aster]

All you need to know is that the name of the shadow is Blackjack.

[David Sims]

Talking about friendship? I'm talking about character. I'm talking about. Hell, Leo, I ain't embarrassed to use the word. I'm talking about podcasts.

[Ari Aster]

What's the word you're replacing?

[David Sims]

Ethics.

[Ari Aster]

Ethics.

[David Sims]

That's the opening line of the movie.

[Ari Aster]

That's Polito.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

I'm gonna give you the hi hat. No, I'm not.

[David Sims]

I was trying to see if there was a hi hat is my favorite thing in this movie.

[Ari Aster]

I think people need to say that more.

[David Sims]

I think it needs to be said all the time.

[Ari Aster]

Right, right. Or. Or I need to give people the hi hat more and tell them I'm doing. So we need. But I feel like you actually can only say, are you giving me that?

[David Sims]

No, I think we need to be doing it and saying it. I think you're right that you can't tell someone else you're giving.

[Ari Aster]

I'm giving you the hi.

[David Sims]

You can accuse someone else of giving you the hi hat, and you can give someone else the hi hat, but you can never call it before you do it. Lex G. Always talks about getting the hi hat, which is why he's one of our finest film critics. One of. Not number one. I was trying to find a hi hat quote.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, sure. But it's mostly just him screaming, are you giving me the hi hat? Or like you're giving me the hi hat?

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah. Drawing.

[Ari Aster]

Keep going.

[David Sims]

Last time we jawed. What?

[Ari Aster]

Calling women twists.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ari Aster]

That's something that they do in this movie.

[David Sims]

My stomach has seized. I like everything he says. I think he's a good man of good character.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, he's kind of a nightmare.

[David Sims]

No. Okay. No, no, no. Good man, good character. And he's letting you know from the beginning. It's about ethics.

[Ari Aster]

It's about ethics.

[David Sims]

It's about ethics and game journalism. That's what this movie's about, right? No, no. Motors Crossing isn't about ethics in Cape Journal.

[Ari Aster]

I don't think so.

[David Sims]

I think it is.

[Ari Aster]

Do you think the Cohens have played video games and you can talk guest. It's fine. You can weigh in on this. They do have kids.

[David Sims]

They have children.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm mostly here to listen. I just want to.

[Ari Aster]

That's fine.

[David Sims]

It's time for you to take some of the.

[Griffin Newman]

I think they have.

[Ari Aster]

So they probably played Hippity Pants.

[Griffin Newman]

All you.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Have the.

[Ari Aster]

Have the Cones played a video game.

[David Sims]

You're doing that as a Google.

[Ari Aster]

Do you think you could do a Miller's Crossing video game? Be fun. Like that video game where you were the guy from Mad Men and you would guess if people are lying. It was like a gangster video game.

[David Sims]

Oh, La Noir.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I thought you were describing like a guy would be like, video game.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, A guy would be like, yeah, I know. I didn't see nothing. You would like press X and be like, you're lying, you piece of. Or whatever. Like, that was the game.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, they should do that.

[David Sims]

Those games that are basically like cutscene. Choose your own adventures. I never play any of these, but I'm like, this just looks like you're watching a bad animated movie, basically. Yeah, but you're telling me you're gaming. Are you giving the high up right now?

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, I'm giving you the hat. Can you introduce the podcast?

[David Sims]

Hey, don't give me the hi hat. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

[Ari Aster]

I'm David.

[David Sims]

It's a podcast about filmographies and ethics and game journalism. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. This is a miniseries on the films of Joel and Ethan Cohen. It is called Pod country for old cast. Today we're talking about Miller's Crossing, kind of. Well, we said Raising Arizona is their.

[Ari Aster]

Guarantor, I think so. Raising Arizona is the mood, the big hit. Raising Arizona gets them this movie, don't you think? Like, they can't make a movie at this scale.

[Griffin Newman]

With Blood Simple. With Blood Simple. Because that. That was also a huge hit and that. And that. Well, I mean, Blood simple was a reliable, huge sleeper hit, right?

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

For.

[Griffin Newman]

For a film that cost basically nothing.

[Ari Aster]

And then Raising Arizona was like kind of a proper hit. Like, you know, people really went to see it and obviously it was well.

[David Sims]

But they talk about how they were chasing Raising Arizona for a while because there was the feeling of, are these guys ever going to make a profitable movie again? And this is the start of them releasing a run of incredibly well reviewed movies that don't make money.

[Ari Aster]

Right. It's this Barton and Hudsucker all kind of.

[Griffin Newman]

They don't cost much either.

[David Sims]

They don't.

[Griffin Newman]

They're smart about Hudsucker costs a lot. It's like they're Joel silver, you know, $40 million. I mean, it's Hudsucker for me. Is maybe the one I've seen the most.

[David Sims]

It's my favorite.

[Griffin Newman]

I love it. I love it very, very much.

[David Sims]

I would never argue it's the best. And part of it being my favorite is just that every time I watch it, I go, I can't believe they got to make this.

[Griffin Newman]

I would say from a. Like, a directorial standpoint, it might be the high point. It's up there with their most beautifully, like, realized films.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ari Aster]

I feel like their entire. Well, I really like almost all of their movies, but that 90s Miller's starting with this all the way to Lebowski. There's never, like, a foot wrong visually. There's never really a foot wrong at all.

[Griffin Newman]

No. Although this is Sonnenfeld. And then Deakins comes right after this. And there's a big difference between, I would say, the, you know, the looks of those films.

[Ari Aster]

Yes. And there's this sort of notable, like, shift, gear shift sort of thing to Deacons coming in. Every time the camera rushes in this one, you're like, barry, we're going for autumnal. He's like, I want to run the camera one more time. Let me just run it out.

[David Sims]

It feels like they're trying to push Sonnenfeld toward what they ultimately would do.

[Ari Aster]

With Deacons is giving them more of the right class.

[Griffin Newman]

But there's still. You still got the, you know, the Evil Dead impulses right with. With the careening camera, which they only do, I like, once or twice. Once here.

[Ari Aster]

I think it's only once.

[Griffin Newman]

It's just. It's just with the screaming and, you know, always put what in the head and, you know, the going into. I forget the wrestler's name.

[David Sims]

Oh, the. The ape. Is that what they call him?

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, the big guy. I also forget his name.

[Griffin Newman]

It's boxing, isn't it? It's not. It's. It's not wrestling. I'm thinking of Barton Fink now, but.

[David Sims]

Yeah, Wallace Berry, wrestling picture. I'm gonna. I'm gonna admit transparently because I got a bunch of plot stuff wrong on Blood simple, which our listeners have been haranguing me for. I'm. I'm not even gonna pretend I can recount the actual inner workings of this movie. This.

[Ari Aster]

I think this movie is simpler than Blood Simple. Maybe I'm wrong. I've seen this movie a lot, too.

[Griffin Newman]

Characters. It has more characters and more names that you have to memorize. Like, you know. And like, you know, you're right. Rug Daniels, you've got. You've got one shot, right? Or not. Well, you Got one scene. You got one scene with Rug.

[Ari Aster]

The moment at the end where Gabriel Byrne clears up, like, who shot Rug Daniels? And why is real like Dashiell Hammett stuff where it's like, by the way, we know that wasn't just totally like a plot dead end. Like, we do know why that happened.

[David Sims]

Which is something they love doing. No, I mean, I. I think the magic of this movie for me is that it is really clear and easy to track the character story within this movie, even though every scene is them discussing deep inner workings of a thing I can barely get my head around. I understand what every character is doing, but it's pretty.

[Ari Aster]

It's basically just. There's just this side and this side and one guy kind of flipping.

[David Sims]

Well, that's what I'm saying. I understand that.

[Ari Aster]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm not sure how well I understand Mink.

[Ari Aster]

Well, you know, sometimes, Ari, a man loves a man. I don't mean to go on. No, it is funny how Mink just swoops in. He has that one incredible, you know, like run a dialogue and you basically never see. See him again. But you hear about him a bunch and he's. His body is vital.

[David Sims]

You hear him over the phone too.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Ari Aster]

And his dead body is a vital plot point. But that's. It's.

[Griffin Newman]

I want to see him with. With the Dane. I want to see, you know, what that relations they get up to behind closed doors.

[Ari Aster]

All right, well, all right. Miller's Crossing side equal with. Is J. Freeman still alive?

[David Sims]

I don't.

[Ari Aster]

No, he's not. That's too bad.

[David Sims]

I. I watch this with captions on as I'm want to do. And they could not keep up with Mink's dialogue. Yeah, they just started dropping every other sentence because they're like, we're not even going to attempt to do this.

[Griffin Newman]

Buscemi can do the. The rat attack.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ari Aster]

This is the first show.

[David Sims]

It is wild that this is the first.

[Ari Aster]

Well, it's only the third movie.

[David Sims]

I know, but it still feels like he comes on screen and you're like, this is a guy they've been working with for centuries.

[Ari Aster]

But he's a brand. He's kind of brand new. Like mystery trains the year before. I think of his first big movie as parting glances. Right. That's 86.

[David Sims]

Sure. What year is New York Stories?

[Griffin Newman]

When it was in the soup.

[Ari Aster]

In the soup. Great movie is when is in the soup? When's in the soup? It's 92. So it's after this. New York Stories is 89. So the year before, the same year as Mystery Train. And yeah, those are the two big.

[David Sims]

I just feel like all of these.

[Ari Aster]

Like, Slaves of New York, the James Ivory movie, which I have never, never seen. The rare, like, James Ivory being like, can we do a contemporary movie in the 80s? No one watches. And he's like, fine, get the. Get the dresses out. We'll do another one of those.

[David Sims]

It just feels like this entire, like, spat of early Buscemi one scene performance movies. He just arrives and everyone is like, oh, cool, I know what to do with. This guy was just fully formed. It's like this guy has ultimate utility. Hit the ground running. Our guest today talking about Miller's Crossing is Ari Aster direct. Eddington in theaters now.

[Ari Aster]

Eddington in theaters now.

[David Sims]

Eddington in theater. And that is the full title, right? Eddington in theaters now.

[Griffin Newman]

Eddington in theaters now.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

Hereditary Midsommar. Bow's Afraid. I don't know. Ari Astor's here.

[Griffin Newman]

Tina Stick fart.

[Ari Aster]

Oh, yeah.

[David Sims]

Was that a short film? Yeah. What's.

[Griffin Newman]

What's.

[David Sims]

Can you repeat the title?

[Griffin Newman]

Tino's Dick Fart.

[David Sims]

That's a good title.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm in it.

[David Sims]

You're in it. Were you the titular dick fart?

[Griffin Newman]

No, no, no, no. But I. It's a product and I. And I use it.

[David Sims]

Okay. You're a customer.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Oh, it's like.

[Ari Aster]

Oh, it's. But it's one of those. You have. I'm watching it. Just. Sorry to sell you, but it's one of the. The squeezy bulb things here that I used to suck snot out of my children's noses is. Is a crucial part of the movie.

[Griffin Newman]

But you can also put it into your dick.

[David Sims]

And that's.

[Griffin Newman]

That makes it far anyway.

[David Sims]

No, that's a good credit. That's a very good credit.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't actually want people looking for this.

[Ari Aster]

Sure.

[David Sims]

A couple of years ago, we. We. You've long been a white whale to get on the show, and there are episodes we had talked about in the past. And a couple of years ago, I don't know if you remember this, but Marie, producer on the show, and I ran into you and we're talking to you and you said, I only want to do a movie, and if it's a movie, I have memorized. And I said, give me some examples of movies just in case we ever get to them. And I believe what you said was anything by Hanukkah, anything by the Coen brothers. And I think the third was Scorsese. Does that sound right?

[Ari Aster]

You definitely love Marty Scorsese. Who doesn't?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, well, I'm not sure. I don't remember saying that. But, but all of those sound, the picks make sense, more or less. Right. To me. I, I love all those filmmakers. This is a movie that I have more or less memorized. I wasn't able to rewatch it last night, which I intended to do. I just had no rustier than I wish I was.

[Ari Aster]

I had no fear. You've memorized this?

[David Sims]

You have in your head. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. This one's important to me. But those guys make sense to me too, as people that you could talk me into doing this for. Especially while I'm in press mode. In press mode, which is not a mode that I tend to.

[David Sims]

Before you go back into hibernation. Press hibernate.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, I hate it, but I, but, but I'm, you know, I was gonna say I'm happy to be here. I don't, that, that also, that also strikes me as not quite sincere. But I, but I, I, it could.

[Ari Aster]

Be worse, I guess I feel that's, I feel like that's how you feel being here. You're like, that could be. There is worse places I could be. At least in press mode, it could be worse.

[Griffin Newman]

And.

[Ari Aster]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And I, I, and I, I, I'm happy to just to have the opportunity to say publicly that I love Miller's Crossing.

[David Sims]

I mean, it's important stance to take in this day and age.

[Ari Aster]

It would be really fun.

[Griffin Newman]

And now I've said it, if you.

[Ari Aster]

Came on and you were like, miller's Crossing, it's kind of a C minus. Yeah. Like, not my fave.

[David Sims]

Cohen, what's your history with them? Do you remember what the first movie of theirs you would have seen would be?

[Ari Aster]

Yeah. What's your. Cohen's sort of. Right. Yeah. Like, what would have been the first theater Cohens? I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

I think the first one I saw was. I think it was actually just on television. I think I saw it pretty young. I think I was like 10 and I saw Raising Arizona. And that for me was like, whoa, what the hell is this?

[David Sims]

Immediately locked down.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Just like, this is a language that, you know, like, I haven't heard before, but like, I. Speaking to me. And I kind of watched them all from there. I, Well, I mean, I mean, you're my age.

[Ari Aster]

Like, I feel like we were both too young to have seen Fargo in theaters. Probably sort of mid.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. But I was aware of it because I loved the poster. I Loved that, like, embroidered.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, the. The homespun mystery poster. And also, that was a movie that was at the Oscars and Francis won. And I remember my mom, me being like, what's that? And my mom being like, you know, it's hard to explain Fargo, but almost.

[David Sims]

Every episode, talking about Billy Crystal cut into Fargo. Oh, sure, as a child being like, what is this movie?

[Ari Aster]

But I don't think I saw Cohen theater until. Oh, brother. This is a point I've made.

[David Sims]

Same for me.

[Ari Aster]

Big lebowski was rated 18 in the.

[David Sims]

UK he grew up in England.

[Griffin Newman]

I did see. I think the first one in theaters was. Was Lebowski for me, and I think it was because my dad thought it was so funny. And then my mom. And so he recommended it to my mom, and then she took me. Was that 98? So that would have been 12.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So Fargo did come out when I was 10, which is, I think, around the time I saw Raising Arizona, which makes sense that I would have kind of, like, set my sight.

[Ari Aster]

And Is this general early for you? Kind of like, I'm starting to understand what a director does. I want to, like, watch a movie and then see more by X person versus just watch movies.

[Griffin Newman]

I can't trace exactly when those things were. I do remember, I would say the first time I, like, really became hyper aware of the director was when I watched Goodfellas when I was really young as well. And I remember just thinking, what makes this feel different? Different than other movies? Like, who? You know, what's he doing that's different? Because this feels. I did. You know, I. I obviously didn't have, like, you know, I didn't have the language for it or. Or, you know, but I. But I. But I just could see that somebody was doing something behind the scenes that was making this different.

[David Sims]

Raising Arizona, as you said, is the same, and you locked in on that same thing.

[Griffin Newman]

And at that. At that point, I. You know, I would have been still addicted to cartoons. And it's like, whoa, this is.

[David Sims]

You know, it's a straight line. They're creating an on ramp for you to.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, totally. Yeah. Just making these cartoon, like, miniature worlds.

[Ari Aster]

Wait, who's your cartoon guy?

[David Sims]

Yeah, let's get into this. This is important.

[Griffin Newman]

Who's my cartoon guy?

[David Sims]

Who are your tunes?

[Ari Aster]

You know, it's like your favorite tune. Someone points a gun at you and is like, you have to make a feature adaptation of a cartoon character.

[David Sims]

And let's be clear, the gun they're pointing at you is a big cartoon gun. It's got a big cork in it. If they shoot it, a flag will come out that says bang.

[Ari Aster]

You know, it's like Daffy Duck, Woody Woodpecker. I don't know, like fucking Wiley Coyote, whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, my. Guys.

[Ari Aster]

Or Dean, maybe you don't have a guy.

[David Sims]

You're doing wtf? We have to prep you for this by asking your tune, guys.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I'm talking about myself as a little kid watching Raising Arizona. So I guess let's just go. Let's, like, take a little time machine. Yeah. Back to 1996 or whatever it was. And I. And you know, I'm watching Rocco's Modern Life. I'm watching. That makes Ren and Stimpy. I'm still watching the Rugrats.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, yeah. They're getting a little. They're getting a little whatever. Yeah, I. Crusty around the edges, those Rugrats. But they were okay.

[David Sims]

I'm still, like.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm still identifying with Chucky Fenster, though.

[David Sims]

You know, I was gonna guess that I didn't want to autocomplete. I was Angelica. Rocco also has some bow. Energy, like, character to character. I think there's a little rock the way rocker Rocco engages with the modern life around him.

[Griffin Newman]

There's some Ren and Stimpy in there, too. Yeah, but.

[Ari Aster]

But.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, Rocco's Modern Life has one joke that I identified as, like, that's my humor when I was really young, which was the episode where. Where Heer becomes convinced that, you know, that. What is it? I'm not sure what the. The chicken place is.

[Ari Aster]

It's Chokey Chicken.

[Griffin Newman]

I can't remember, but something chicken is.

[Ari Aster]

Chewy Chicken. Initially called Chokey Chicken.

[Griffin Newman]

Chewy Chicken. Chewy Chicken is people. Chewy Chicken is people.

[Ari Aster]

Soylent Green.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And then. And so he. You know, he comes out screaming that. And then there's, like, a family of chickens going up the stairs, and they're like, well, that's a relief. I just remember, really.

[Ari Aster]

That's a good gag.

[David Sims]

That's a good.

[Griffin Newman]

I remember just. That had me laughing for, like, 10 minutes. I was a really stupid kid. But I. So, no, no, no.

[David Sims]

That's not sophisticated. Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

We grew up in a perfect era for that of, you know, cartoon like that was that we had it best. I really think we had it. Well, the nickname revolution stuff was just slipping by.

[David Sims]

You also basically doubled the amount of cart that were being made because of cable. Right.

[Ari Aster]

We need stuff.

[David Sims]

Like, so much of cartoons was still us watching the things our parents grew up on. And suddenly there's this wave of like cable channels making new shows and Nickelodeon in particular pulled a bunch of like underground cartoonists and were like, just do your thing. So you had these shows that were, if not subversive, at least were quietly kind of like for their own entertainment, which then could transmit a signal directly to the type of kid could be like, I get this. This is doing something different. That's, I mean it's the thing I feel like we talk about on this show all the time. But that feeling of watching something when you're young and going, like, why is this different? The way you're describing watching Goodfellas, it has to be the person who made this because this is doing something different than anything else I've ever seen.

[Ari Aster]

But so then, all right, Miller's Crossing. When do you get to Miller's Crossing? I watched this in college for sure. Like I don't, you know, I had long, you know, I'd seen a bunch of Cohens or whatever. By the time I finally rented this on Love Film and watch it on my college like 10 inch TV, I.

[David Sims]

Think this is the last one I saw, not counting like new releases that came out after I saw in my Going Backwards in Cohen's. I think they played this at film form some point in the last 10 years. And it was my blind spot. And I also had only seen it the one time before rewatching last night versus every other Cool.

[Ari Aster]

So this isn't a big one.

[David Sims]

I feel like I've seen five times. I love it. I was kind of surprised when I put it on. Why haven't I rewatched this? Because all their other movies are movies I tend to throw on if I can't fall asleep. And this one I just never go back to.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, this was, this was an early one for me. This was really early as I was first digging in. This was one of the first movies that I, that I rented of theirs. And I, and I remember this is around the time that I also was obsessed with Goodfellas and I, and, and this, this came out the same year. This is the year the big three gangster movies overshadowed by that. Although, but, and, and, and it makes sense because, you know, Goodfellas is the best movie ever made. But I agree, but then I agree, but, but this is one of the best movies ever made. I, I was completely blown away. And this is a film I just kept re watching and you know, and I, I was a kid who, you know, I was a fat kid with like a debilitating stutter. So, you know, I keep hearing about These kids who are making Super 8 movies with their friends.

[Ari Aster]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But, you know, what do you do when you have no friends? And so I, you know, instead of making movies, I just like, wrote scripts. And this was one of the scripts that I was completely obsessed with. You know, I, I, I.

[Ari Aster]

Would you get your hands on scripts to see, like.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, no, I, I, I was printing scripts from like, like from the Internet, like, like Drew's scriptor Rama.

[Ari Aster]

And there's. Their scripts are, I feel like, unique, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Simply scripts, you know, simply scripture.

[Ari Aster]

Like, don't the Cohen's kind of write their scripts more narratively or what? I feel like there's some approach they have that's not typical.

[Griffin Newman]

The Cohen's. Yeah, no, the Cohen's are. They, they write them as like prose. They don't do, like, I think they do do interior, but, but they, but they are, you know, they're, they're literate. Well, they're literary and in a way. And this, this film especially because, you know, I mean, the dialogue is just, is so musical and so beautiful and has such like, rhythm to it. And obviously, you know, the film is like something between pastiche and homage and it's specifically got its sights on Dashiell Hammett. But one of the first scripts I bought was. One of the first script books I bought was this and Barton Fink's screenplay published together with the Roderick Jaynes introduction.

[David Sims]

We have that somewhere here. There's a third one in there, I think as well.

[Griffin Newman]

No, it's just those two. Okay. It's just those two. The Faber.

[Ari Aster]

The Faber, the, the published, the Clapper, you know, cover.

[Griffin Newman]

Those were the best. If you were, if you were, if you were collecting scripts. The Faber series was, you know, was absolutely the best.

[David Sims]

Is it titled as like Collected Cohen Screenplays, Volume one?

[Griffin Newman]

No, no, no, you're. Yeah, I know what, you know what I'm thinking? That came later.

[David Sims]

But then there's no Volume two. There's a Volume one that's three of them together that I got recently. And then Volume two never happens.

[Griffin Newman]

Is that right? I mean, Faber published like almost all of them.

[David Sims]

They started doing them solo and they.

[Griffin Newman]

Did, they did, yeah, they, they did the man who Wasn't There again with another Roderick James intro. Which. Those are the funniest.

[Ari Aster]

Roderick James, of course, is their editor. Who is them?

[Griffin Newman]

Who is them?

[Ari Aster]

Although I think they didn't start doing that until. Is it Barton, like they did they initially? Or like Miller's Crossing was edited by somebody else, right? It was Michael Miller, right. Barton Fink is Roderick James. So that's where. But did. Is raising Arizona. Did they edit that one themselves? I'm gonna check. No, Michael Miller is there. Right. Is there editor on that one, too? Yeah, so. But Roderick James, famously, they wanted to dress Albert Finney up as him one year when he was nominated maybe for Fargo. They were nominated under that, and they were like, we're gonna put Albert Finney in a costume and have him, like, sit there. I don't think it actually happened.

[Griffin Newman]

Who's the guy they use for. They have like, a photo for Forever Young films.

[David Sims]

Oh, yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Which he shows up for Blood simple and he goes, forever young. Forever young. They've used him a few times there.

[David Sims]

Absolutely.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. That guy is so funny. So funny.

[David Sims]

When you're young and you're reading this script and trying to, like, pull the math from it to be able to apply. To learn how to write your own scripts, what are the. Are there things you remember latching onto or observing and engaging with it in that format?

[Griffin Newman]

Well, you know, I mean, the film is like, you know, famous for its labyrinthine plotting, which was so complicated that they had to take a break from it to write Barton Fink.

[Ari Aster]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Because they got confused.

[David Sims]

Most productive writers block of all time. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. But when I first started writing screenplays and, like, kind of obsessively reading them, I was just obsessed with dialogue writing. And. And so I was really into, you know, David Mamet, Paddy Chayefsky and the Cohen's. Really. And there were a lot of other screenwriters that, like, still, that meant a lot to me. Like, you know, I was really into Paul Schrader when I was young and I was really. I. And. And I got into Bergman pretty young, and I really loved his screenplays. And, you know, and Kenneth Lonergan, who's. Who's still maybe the best dialogue writer, you know, like, living.

[David Sims]

I'm with you on that. I. I was looking at his IMDb the other day because I was like, how few credits does Lonergan actually have? There's the early run of him getting the credit on Analyze this, which he says they basically totally rewrote.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And he showed up for Gangs of.

[David Sims]

New York, and he's sole credited screenwriter on Adventures of Rocky and Bullwinkle, which is incredible.

[Ari Aster]

Forget.

[David Sims]

Yeah, no one else gets credit on that. But the thing I always forget is he wrote two episodes of Doug going back to Nicktoons, which makes a ton of sense.

[Ari Aster]

Yep. He wrote series four. He was in the writers room for that one, I guess. I don't know, Doug. A tough protagonist to write for.

[David Sims]

I think a lot of the. Animated by Porkchop, that's really who he dug in his.

[Griffin Newman]

And. And his plays, you know, are. Are incredible.

[Ari Aster]

His plays are incredible.

[David Sims]

I read his plays obsessively in high school. I think, in a similar way of just being like, what. What is this? And how does he do this?

[Ari Aster]

I've also talked about this, but, you know, this is Our Youth was revived in London when I was a teenager as this, like, rolling, like, thing with celebrities.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ari Aster]

Like, it was. The initial cast was Hayden Christensen, Anna Paquin and Jake Gyllenhaal, but then they would just bring in all these other young, hot Americans.

[David Sims]

I found one the other day, which.

[Ari Aster]

Was, I have the Pope. Damon did it, which is bizarre. He was way too old to be doing it.

[David Sims]

Freddie Prinze Jr. And Chris Klein did it together.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And, like, one of the worst titles for anything.

[Ari Aster]

This is Our Youth is a very, very bad title. I'm sure he regrets that title a little bit. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, it's a very good play.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

With a. With a horrendous title.

[David Sims]

That's another thing. I found this Playbill article where they were talking about.

[Griffin Newman]

But you can Count on Me as a bit. Sorry, I'm. I'm.

[David Sims]

No, no.

[Griffin Newman]

Just musing on. On bad. Bad titles for great things. You can Count on Me. I remember being. Because I love that film.

[Ari Aster]

Incredible.

[Griffin Newman]

And I remember almost not seeing it because the title and then being so happy that nobody said, you can count on me.

[David Sims]

Yes. It sounds there the whole time going, like, don't blow it, my guy.

[Ari Aster]

It's.

[David Sims]

Especially the final bus stop scene. It could come at any second.

[Ari Aster]

Sun Dancy kind of movie.

[David Sims]

I mean, I know it was the title kind of.

[Ari Aster]

No, it's a totally fine title. But now I'm realizing, like, actually, he usually shits the bed with his titles. No, I'm kidding. I mean, Margaret is a great title for the movie. It's a tough sell, maybe.

[David Sims]

Right. It also falls into the tootsie problem of, like, so who plays Martin?

[Ari Aster]

Right. Nobody.

[David Sims]

It's a poem. There's a Playbill article I found that was when you can Count on Me was about to come out, and they're saying, like, everything's coming up. Lonergan, he wrote the Rocky and Bullwinkle movie, his first directorial effort. Like, this is Our Youth continues to, like, sell out in London. And he was like, my next thing I'm doing is this is Our Youth as a movie.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Just like, it is absolutely as long as people don't think I the bed on this first film. I'm doing that next.

[Ari Aster]

But it's not a doubt. It's not cinematic at all.

[David Sims]

At all.

[Ari Aster]

Set in a freaking dirty apartment. Like it's a play. I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

It makes sense because it was so beloved.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And you know, everybody likes young people, Right.

[David Sims]

He could, in theory, get three big stars to do it.

[Ari Aster]

Damon Affleck, Casey Affleck, and Summer Phoenix. Was that cast wild. I gotta find the Kieran Culkin one. I saw it like three times. I just kept going.

[Griffin Newman]

I saw the Kieran Culkin. Michael Cera.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I saw that at the Roundabout. Yeah, yeah.

[Ari Aster]

And Tavi, right?

[David Sims]

Yes. Find out who played the female part against Klein and Prince, though.

[Ari Aster]

Colin Hanks did it in London, I think. Anyway, this is not important.

[Griffin Newman]

Now I'm seeing why these go for two. Sorry.

[Ari Aster]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Miller's Cross.

[David Sims]

Because we talk about the important things that everyone else is afraid to talk about. Here's what I want to ask about Miller's Crossing, or rather a point I want to make. Blood Supple does not have a ton of dialogue in it. The dialogue that's in it's really strong, but there are extended sections that play out in silence.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, it's mostly just the. The. The private eye who, who, you know, is. Is. Was a real get for them in their first film.

[Ari Aster]

He's a proper, recognizable character actor.

[Griffin Newman]

You guys seen Straight Time?

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Heather Burns, the greatest.

[Ari Aster]

The great.

[David Sims]

Oh, oh, yeah. Love Heather Burns.

[Griffin Newman]

But.

[David Sims]

Yeah, but that's a good point. That, like, what they did for M.M. walsh, a guy who was always kind of taken as sturdy but never got that good of a showcase, I think immediately gives them so much clout with other actors of. Well, I want them to do for me what they did for him. And just from Raising Arizona on, they're getting great people. But Raising Arizona is so dialogue forward. But the criticisms at the time, as we read all the insane reviews when it came out, are people being like, why is this so overwritten? There's all this insane criticism at the time from Arizona critics. Yes. Being like, no one talks like this. Rather than getting that. That's the point.

[Ari Aster]

The critics don't really fully align on the cones until Fargo. Like, I mean, obviously they were critically beloved in their way. But like, every movie, there would be a huge swath of usually older critics being like, this is all sizzle. Like, you know, this is pastiche. Like you say, like, this is not.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, and there's that there's that. Like, I'm always mystified by this one, but the. They judge their characters. They don't like their characters. Right, right.

[Ari Aster]

They're patronizing. Yeah.

[David Sims]

They love their.

[Griffin Newman]

I've never understood. I've. Well, no, I've just never understood that as even a criticism. It's like. It's like. Especially when you're making a genre film, it's like, I. I want you to destroy everybody you create. Like, I. You know, like, that's. That's, like, I've paid for this movie also.

[David Sims]

Their movies are about cruel and in different universes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. And they. And they've all. They've. They've always been world builders, you know, and. And. And they're. They're people who are very conscious of kind of all the traditions that precedes them. And what kind of distinguishes them is that they're. They're both like. Like a reverential thing going on where they. Where they absolutely, like, you know, love these traditions. And then they're also totally irreverent, where they're, you know, kind of blowing them up. And. And. And so you do have something, like, with Raising Arizona, you've got, like, a lot of, like, Tex Avery and all the. You know. But. But then, you know, with. With Miller's Crossing, you have, specifically Dashiell Hammett. You've got Howard Hawks. You've got this, like, really explodes with Hudsucker Proxy, where it's like, okay, this is sort of capra. It's like Mr. Deeds goes to Town. And, like. Okay. It's also like the Big Clock and it's. And, like, you got Sturgis, and it's. It's mostly Capro with, like, the speed of Howard Hawks. And then with Miller's Crossing, you. You've got, I would say, mostly Hammet with, again, the, like, the. The treatment of dialogue that you get from Howard Hawks. And then. And then, like, a minimalism that, like, even just the rooms are empty.

[David Sims]

Yes. And after how kinetic and sort of like, thoroughly stylized Raising Arizona is, I think you're right that they didn't totally align until Fargo. But this is a movie where you see a lot of their critical critics swing back and go, maybe these guys have depth. Not everybody.

[Griffin Newman]

This is the first of their films that feels. That has, like, an elegiac quality.

[Ari Aster]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And I. And I do feel that if you're one of the people who, whatever, was, like, saw Raising Arizona and was, like, weird enough to be like, they don't like these people. I don't like this, you know?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

This movie's really moving. And it's a great film about friendship.

[Ari Aster]

That's the. I think you have to watch it a couple times to figure that out. Maybe because the first. Cause it's so visually overwhelming and because the plot is ostensibly naughty and complicated, that. So you're, like, trying to keep track. And then the more I watched it, the more I locked in on, like, yes, it's a film about friendship. It's a film about a person weighing whether there's any morality in, like, what he does. Right. You know what I mean? And, like, making a moral decision and then regretting it, essentially. Like, I'm reading the Ebert review. The Ebert review is interesting where. Because he is. He has the criticism I think a lot of people had, where he's like, this is a gorgeous movie. I don't believe that anyone would live in these rooms. Like, these rooms are too beautiful. It's not a gangster movie. Like, and can be in the Times, who I think of as, like, one of the kings of the old guard back then, like, futsy, kind of a. Whatever. Bad critic. Sorry. Vincent was a big hater. Who is like, this is like fucking Dick Tracy. You know, the Warren Beatty movie.

[David Sims]

Toy Train, Pesticides.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah. This is just these kids playing with gangster action figures. And you're just like, I'm just saying, not to diss my own community, but.

[David Sims]

But I think this movie is, even on a surface level, more sincere and less ironic. Less. Right. Which broke down some of their detractors who get fully won over by Fargo. And I think part of. Is to your point, when you're talking about all the different elements, they're synthesizing in, like, you know, Hudsuckers after this. But in Blood simple and in Raising Arizona, they're getting the charge from putting disparate things together. Right. What if you combined Mad Max with Flannery o', Connor, with Wile E. Coyote, and to some people, they just short circuit and go. You can't put those things together. The things that Miller's Crossing is synthesizing are all starting at a closer place to each other. So I think people were just like, okay, this is a less manic thing. A thing that I find funny because I was trying to remember why I saw Miller, not Miller's Crossing, Raising Arizona at a young age. And it was that I was obsessed with. The AFI did their hundred years, hundred laughs list. After their first 100 years of movies list, they tried to do every year a new one as a TV special. That I was obsessed with. And then Blockbuster had a little pamphlet where you could check on which ones you had watched as a comedy obsessed kid. And in 1998, raising Arizona was 30 on 31. 31. But like, barely 10 years later, it had gone from like, what is this overwritten stuff? To we all agree this is One of the 50 best American comedies ever made.

[Ari Aster]

Yep. Fargo's also on that list.

[David Sims]

Where was Fargo?

[Ari Aster]

93.

[Griffin Newman]

And I'm sure Big Lebowski's on there now.

[David Sims]

And now would be.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ari Aster]

Right now. I wonder if Raising Arizona Noel. Who knows? Just because Big labowasti sort of became their most famous out and out comedy in a way.

[David Sims]

But with the Venmo debit card, you can Venmo everything. Your favorite band's merch. You can Venmo this or their next show.

[Ari Aster]

You can Venmo that.

[David Sims]

Visit Venmo Me debit to learn more. The Venmo MasterCard is issued by the Bancorp bank and a pursuant to license by MasterCard International, Inc. The card may be used everywhere. MasterCard is accepted. Venmo purchase restrictions apply.

[Ari Aster]

I'm opening the dossier. We have research. All right. We don't just make stuff up. Okay. So obviously, right, they're pivoting out of Raising Arizona. Joel says we don't want to do another out now comedy. We wanted to do something that was a little bit morbid. We've always liked gangsters, and they talk about the visual. The starting point is the visual is the hats, the long coats, the hat blowing onto the ground. Tommy Guns, Dirty Town Gangster Stories is, how Joel Cohen puts it, more pulp lit than movies, per se. Right. Like they're starting more with this.

[Griffin Newman]

The sound of the cork being pulled out of a skip.

[David Sims]

Once again, the goat. No movies sound better than Coen Brothers movies because every single action has such a distinct resonance to it. Any, like, shifting of weight in a chair suddenly is the most visceral thing you have ever experienced.

[Griffin Newman]

I'll just say, since I'm only able to talk on the Miller's Crossing podcast, but I've got a lot to say about all their films. I will say for. For sound design, the road trip sequence in Inside Lewyn Davis is. Is. Is so mesmerizing.

[David Sims]

The John Goodman, Goodman, Garrett.

[Griffin Newman]

Everything about it, it's so just.

[David Sims]

It.

[Griffin Newman]

It is such a hypnotic, like 20, 25 minutes. I. It's. It might be their best filmmaking, but also the. But just the sound design, it's like the whole thing is like almost underwater.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's really. It's really eerie. And. And also just their, like, metronomic sense of like, pacing, like reaches, like a sort of apex. They.

[Ari Aster]

That's. That they have a lot of the.

[Griffin Newman]

Rhythm, a lot of like, apogees. Like, you know, they do.

[Ari Aster]

They have multiples.

[Griffin Newman]

I can't talk on. On Hudsucker Proxy or Serious man podcasts, but I.

[David Sims]

But I will say you can share my thoughts here. This is your space.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I will say Serious man, the Goy's Teeth and then Hudsucker Proxy, the. The Hula Hoop, which I know Sam Raimi was. Was involved in. In. In. In helping to. To. To direct. Those two are like, I mean, just, you know, as far as the medium has been, like, pushed as far as montage is concerned, just absolutely amazing.

[David Sims]

And the Hudsucker. Right. The Hudsucker sequence feels mathematical in the way it is interweaving different games that are being heightened and dehghtened. You basically, within one extended montage, have like 10 different narrative tracks that you're keeping your tabs on. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And. And just like what they're doing in that movie with the Catchaturian, you know, it's. I mean, it's. It's. It's Carter Burwell kind of riffing on Catch A Turian's Spartacus.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Mostly the Adagio, but it's. I mean, just what they're doing with music there is so great. It's like, you know, it's very. It's like it's very Rube Goldberg and they're very Rube Goldbergy filmmakers.

[Ari Aster]

This sort of Serious Man, True Grit Inside Lynn Davis, whatever. Apogee, one of. One of like several ap. Is that does feel like trying to.

[David Sims]

Circle, like, for kids.

[Ari Aster]

Like, for kids. That feels like where they're just like, we can. I'm not saying in an arrogant way. It's just they're so. They can do anything.

[David Sims]

Right?

[Ari Aster]

Like, they can work in any genre at that point without any kind of like, oh, let's see what this is like.

[David Sims]

We. We recorded our Hot Sucker episode quite, quite a bit ago, and I was trying to do some tighting around the Office, and I found this, which I don't think was shared on mic and never went acknowledged. Ben, I believe, drew this up, which is a chain, and it says, you know, for kids. Was this your handiwork?

[Ari Aster]

Just like an idea I was playing around with.

[David Sims]

Just pitching the idea of a chain to play with.

[Ari Aster]

Oh, you like. Just like a metal chain.

[David Sims]

Like chains. Right.

[Ari Aster]

It's A.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a quality of.

[Ari Aster]

Of something I love in film.

[David Sims]

I'm sorry.

[Ari Aster]

You know, in general.

[David Sims]

You know, for bad kids. I missed the key word. The chain is for bad kids.

[Ari Aster]

There's no re. Movie with chains, though. You've never really done chain work in your. In your oeuvre.

[Griffin Newman]

Bo was afraid. He breaks the chains. Remember, in the play?

[Ari Aster]

Yes, okay. Yes, that's right. That's right. Okay, so you've done some chain. It just must be fun to, like, as a director, evaluate, like, piles of chains, right? Like, is this the right chain?

[Griffin Newman]

It's more in my private life.

[David Sims]

When you were visited by Jacob Marley, Ari.

[Ari Aster]

Same, I gotta say.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ari Aster]

So, okay. Millers Crossing, as you already, you know, noted, Dashiell Hammett is obviously their biggest inspiration versus James Cain, Raymond Chandler, whoever else that they've also sort of paid homage to over the years. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Chandler would be Big Lebowski. Kane would be man who wasn't there.

[Ari Aster]

And kind of blood simple, definitely.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blood simple for sure.

[Ari Aster]

Kane, the horniest. I would say Chandler kind of the coolest. And Hammett, I feel like, is the most emotional. I don't know. Maybe that's very broad of me, though, actually. Maybe it's.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm sure if I would say Hamit was the most emotional because, well, Glass.

[Ari Aster]

Key is emotional, which is a book I love because that is about friendship. That is about a guy being like, I can't be friends with you anymore.

[Griffin Newman]

But you're also outside of the characters in Hammet. Whereas with, I would say, is Kane the most emotional? Not necessary.

[Ari Aster]

Kane's just so horny.

[Griffin Newman]

With Mildred Pierce, maybe. But Kane is, like, so just bare bones and. And, like, nothing extraneous. Whereas Hammett is, like, more colorful, I would say, and is having more fun with language. And. And then Chandler is. Is. You're. You're just always inside of, like, Marlo's.

[Ari Aster]

Right. A drunk motherfucker, God bless him.

[Griffin Newman]

Point of view, who, like, can't put.

[Ari Aster]

His pants on, but also is so cool. Just speaking to what you're saying, Ethan. This is a quote from Ethan Miller's Crossing. Definitely an exercise in doing a Hammet story. It's that thing of not being in the character's head. And part of the mystery is who is the main character? Because with Sam Spade, who I feel like is the most famous hammock guy, you are spending the whole thing being like, yeah, what does he want? Actually, Like, I don't get. He's cool.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he's an Enigma and Gabriel Byrne in this movie. Tom. Tom Reagan. He's.

[Ari Aster]

You might not know, character. Irish. You might. Did you pick up on that? The. Right. Yeah, yeah, he's stoic.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he's. He's a stoic who.

[Ari Aster]

Sort of man. A few words.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

Stone faced, often very, very Red Harvest.

[Griffin Newman]

And you know, it's like he's doing something. We know, we know he's got a plan. We don't know how much of a plan he has. He seem. He seems to be a brilliant improviser.

[David Sims]

Have ideas for a plan. What's the line?

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, right. Something like that.

[Griffin Newman]

And I guess, you know, Red. Red Harvest is infamously the, you know, the sort of the. The text for Yojimbo. And then like, you know, and then those. Those. Sergio Leone.

[Ari Aster]

The man with no Name.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, the man with no name. But specifically A Fistful of Dollars. Right. And then. Yeah, just a guy who in the case of like Yojimbo, like, you know, rolls into a town, a street, you know, like a. A drifter who then pits, you know, pits two warring gangs against each other. But here, Here, you know, it's somebody who, who's of the world and in the world.

[David Sims]

And what's the line they used to describe him too? He's like the guy behind the guy whispering in the ear. This sort of notion of the type of guy who's not usually at the center of these stories.

[Griffin Newman]

The right hand man.

[David Sims]

Right. And is so reluctant to reveal himself in any way. There's the tough to date.

[Ari Aster]

I feel like this guy might be tough.

[David Sims]

Well, there's the exchange he has with Marcia Gay Harden where she's like, that's a hell of a long way to go to get what you want. And then he says, what would that be? And she says, me. And it's a thing he would never ever say to her that she's basically pulling out of him. Of, I think you just got fired and got your ass beat, rather than saying I love you, which is the thing you would never do. And yet the whole time, in almost every scene, I'm trying to figure out is he manipulating this current situation to his own ends for what he wants, or is he battling back and forth in terms of what he actually wants? I think what makes this character interesting to me is at different times, I think he's in complete control or complete chaos. Based on. Is he cleaning up the messes of something he did wrong before or is this all how he was trying to build it out purposefully? Because I. I think there is some Shifting of at moments in this movie, I'm thinking he's planning all of this so he can get out or he's planning all this so he can be on top. Or he's planning all of this to help Albert Finney or just to get Marsh, Gay Harden or all of them. Does he think he can pull it all off?

[Griffin Newman]

And then, and then by the end it turned out he, you know, he, he did have the plan.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ari Aster]

Do you think he. The whole time is like, that's how it's gonna unfold. I'll switch sides and ferment chaos?

[Griffin Newman]

Well, of course not. When he like lets Bernie Bernbaum like go in the woods, you know, that's.

[Ari Aster]

The one time he's letting the mask slip or whatever. That's the sort of crux. Right. It's like it actually. And I would let him go too. He won't shut up. I would, I would struggle to shoot.

[David Sims]

Let him go.

[Ari Aster]

And then it's so great when he shoots him.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ari Aster]

It's one of the most satisfying murders of a person ever in a movie.

[David Sims]

Having only seen this movie twice, admittedly.

[Ari Aster]

Okay.

[David Sims]

I did in this watch. Feel like there is a midsection where his priority becomes Marcia Gay Harden. I mean, and then he's sort of trying to untangle the damage he causes by letting his emotions override that much. I think there's a window where that becomes the dominant driving force for him. And then he starts to close up again.

[Ari Aster]

He's definitely, look, he's a compulsive gambler and he likes, he likes a drinker too.

[David Sims]

He likes to pull the cork.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah. It's not like Tom is a completely straightforward person. There is obviously a lot raging inside of him that is, you know, that he deals with in traditional 1920s gangster ways. Be funny if he went off and like did art or something, but you know, really good painter, right?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

But yeah, he's not sentimental, I guess. And he's. And Albert Finney. Leo, right. Is such a sweetheart in this movie, which is so he never stops being a sweetheart. Like he's really not a cold blooded. He's a very warm blooded guy. Right. Like, he's a. And I feel like Tom is like, I don't know how to be like that or I don't know, understand like how to sort of handle this like, you know, this emotional person. Right. I don't know.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Albert Finney at the end of his career was in those last like, you know, 15 years, was playing a lot of warm guys.

[Ari Aster]

He's.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, Aaron Brockovich and all this. But.

[Ari Aster]

But my favorite actor, basically.

[Griffin Newman]

I. I mean, Saturday Night and Sunday Morning is one of my favorite performances.

[Ari Aster]

That is basically one of my.

[Griffin Newman]

That's where he plays core movies. That's where he plays like a brute.

[Ari Aster]

He. As I've told. I've said on this podcast, that is. That's like my dad was always just like, that was me.

[David Sims]

You were raised on that movie.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, yeah. It was a working class British guy, like in that era, drinking all the time. He just always just like. We just got food back, like proper like. And I don't mean even good food, but Britain in like the late 50s is basically like. We're now allowed to eat regular amounts of food again. We've basically just been drinking our brains out.

[Griffin Newman]

If a character was just beer.

[David Sims]

He'S a human.

[Ari Aster]

What I love about that is that's 1960. 1963. The next movie he makes is Tom Jones in 1963, which is basically like, what if a guy his way through like England in like, you know, whatever era coming out, the Oscars were like Best Picture, I think, like this is. This is the best picture of the year.

[David Sims]

He always had that, like. Not to be corny, but the twinkle in his eye and there was this like, well of warmth that you could apply in different ways. But there was something of like an Aaron Brockovich. You want to see him be won over. Right. But something like this. What's funny about it is that he's not doing the tough layer on top of it. I mean, it's. One of the most insane things is that this was not only not written for him, but written explicitly for Trey Wilson, who dies two days before filming.

[Ari Aster]

Right. Who's obviously wonderful in Raising Arizona. And you get it. I mean, you can see him in this. But then I also cannot imagine anyone else but Finney in the robe with the Tommy gun in that whole sequence. You're like, yeah, it's incredible. Yeah.

[David Sims]

And the weight of the history of what he provides, like Trey Wilson clearly would have knocked this out of the park cuz he eager to have this kind of opportunity.

[Ari Aster]

Scene one of Finney sitting there, you're like, yeah, I get that this guy's run this town for 20 years or whatever.

[David Sims]

It's like production value and like weight. Especially because the movie basically opens on him silently, largely just reacting. You know, that's sort of like worth its weight in gold. But it is wild that it not only was not intended for him, but that he jumps in so last minute where you're like, this is Finney with zero prep.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, right.

[David Sims]

Like, if Trey Wilson dies two days before, like, how do they even get to Finney that quick? Get agreement out of him, get him on set within a week.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, it's a really soulful performance, but also he's so clearly tapped into whatever they're doing. You know, I mean, like, there's the gag where Gabriel Byrne breaks into the ladies room and he's dressed. He's dressed in drag as like one of the attendant. It's like, you know, which he asked to do. It's just like clear that he has the same sense of humor as the right.

[David Sims]

It was into the idea of being Rod Jane's at the Oscar. Like, I'm just like, it's so, so great. Funny, but also beautiful. Freak feels like a movie, especially at this point in their career that you imagine only gets greenlit if they have someone like Finnie in the supporting role. Well, this feels like a classic.

[Ari Aster]

Like, let me get back to the research then, because. Okay, so famously. Yes, it usually they say they write very fast. Like, that's. I feel like their typical explanation on screenplay writing. But as we said, the plot slows them down. It takes them, they say, about eight months because they stop in the middle to write blood about Barton Fink. They get some distance from it, they kind of go on vacation, they come back to it, they figure out the plot. And they also say they don't change the dialogue, but they rewrote part of the script during filming, which I don't really understand, but maybe they just kind of restructured the, you know, plotting in some way. They obviously are not very into symbolism. Explaining symbolism. Barry Sonnenfeld says, like, they won't say, like, the hat represents this.

[David Sims]

We're going to talk about that.

[Ari Aster]

But they will say, yeah, we wanted to make a movie with hats. You know what I mean? Like, that's the thing with the cones. They're like hats. Like, we. We started with hats. What are the hats mean? And they're like, oh, I don't know. We just like hats.

[David Sims]

Right before we recorded, we were talking about how you were worried going into the series of like, isn't it going to be tough? Because they famously don't want to talk in interviews and we're not going to get the context that JJ is usually good at digging up when he's not busy being fired and that you've been surprised that there is a lot of stuff they say, despite the reputation, you can pin all this together. But I feel like so much of the reputation comes from the hat, where this movie comes out and everyone's like, what does the hat mean? And they kept on being like. We just thought it was kind of an interesting image. They really downplayed any weight behind it.

[Ari Aster]

And I feel the hat doesn't represent anything. It's a hat blown by the wind.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ari Aster]

It's an image that came to us that we like.

[David Sims]

And then Barton Fink almost.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't think that's disingenuous.

[Ari Aster]

I don't either.

[Griffin Newman]

I think that. I think that that strikes me as. As being right, you know, I. I don't see that and think like, man, that hat represents. You know, I agree with you.

[Ari Aster]

I think that's the secret. You gotta just. I mean, look, I thought you have made movies, I'm sure, where people are like. But, Ari, what does this mean? Like that. That scene. Come on, now. Explain it to me now, Ari. You know, I'm like. I'm sure you get this all the time.

[Griffin Newman]

Totally.

[Ari Aster]

And that's really fun. And you love those questions and you love to answer them.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ari Aster]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And. And sometimes you dangle stuff, knowing that it's gonna, you know.

[Ari Aster]

Right. You're not.

[Griffin Newman]

It's gonna waste people's time.

[Ari Aster]

You're not a babe in the woods being like, la la. You know that? Sure. Like, okay, this will.

[Griffin Newman]

Sometimes. That's the joke. The joke. This joke is like, you're gonna think this means something because part of the thing.

[Ari Aster]

Why the dick in the attic and boys afraid. Yes. Makes my favorite thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, that's the whole point. The whole point is like. The whole point could be up there, the whole movie. You're like. You know, you build the intrigue and you make it like an object of suspense, and then you reveal, like, you've just wasted your time and your thought and your energy on this. And.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's. It's the stupidest possible thing that could mean nothing, but also kind of complete.

[David Sims]

Like everything. It's like, isn't everyone's father no penis?

[Griffin Newman]

That's the trap. You know, even. I mean, it's almost the. It's almost like the one thing I regret where it's just like. Like, I. I.

[Ari Aster]

Are you having too much fun or.

[Griffin Newman]

Such a. Well, no, it's just such a You and it. And. And that was sort of the point was, you know, I guess to. To quote Susan Sontag.

[Ari Aster]

Please, I.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a. It's. It's a. A gesture that's against the very idea of interpretation. Right? Like, just, like Try. Yeah, just try to interpret this.

[Ari Aster]

I just gave Ari the finger.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, exactly. Well, that's exactly right. It is. It is a middle finger to anybody, you know, investing anything, like sort of.

[David Sims]

Doing semiotics, I mean, against everything we've just said. Can I give my hat read? Oh, something kind of click watching it this time.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah. The hat is a penis.

[David Sims]

The hat is a penis. It's Bo's dad.

[Ari Aster]

What's up?

[David Sims]

The hat is Bo's dad. It's a call forward.

[Ari Aster]

Right. What's the hat?

[David Sims]

No, I think. I think it is literally just a hat. Right. But I think the reason. Not just the imagery. Right. But then also the high hat being thrown out as the term all the time.

[Ari Aster]

Give me the high hat. Sure. Refers to symbols, but.

[David Sims]

Yes, yes. And the first scene after the opening credits and the hat imagery is them calling out that Gabriel Byrne lost his hat.

[Ari Aster]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And it goes back to the Leo.

[Ari Aster]

They are very into knocking his hat off his head.

[David Sims]

Absolutely. And there's a lot in this movie of when people are wearing a hat when they're not, when they take it off. Right. Which I think is just literally what it is. And down to Polito talking about, like, ethics. Right. That this is a movie to me, in many ways, that is about this kind of, like, early 1900s, all the immigration happening, these different cliques from different countries coming to the major cities and trying to establish a social hierarchy. You know, where did the Irish stand relative to the Italians and to the Jews, and all these people trying to make a name for themselves. But all of this was couched in this idea of, like, manners and ethics and gentlemanly behavior and who can you trust? You know, the Sopranos thing of, like, do you feel like we got in after all the good stuff had happened? Right. That that era of, like, mobsterism and even what Goodfellas is kind of addressing is like, this is starting to get tacky. And the. That they talk about being so animating to them is like, these movies that have this kind of dialogue and the hats and the long coats and, like, they're fetishists. These guys used to talk well and dress well.

[Ari Aster]

That's right. That's absolutely right.

[David Sims]

And the idea of what you did with your hat was shown could be an ultimate sign of respect or disrespect to someone else. That the major thing in play here, that in many ways the central tension of this movie is, can you do something that breaks the gentlemanly nature of crime?

[Ari Aster]

Sure.

[David Sims]

And if you do that, is this irrevocable Polito's hatred of the double cross.

[Ari Aster]

We're all pretending to be gentlemen.

[David Sims]

Exactly.

[Ari Aster]

To what extent Are we really. Yeah. No.

[David Sims]

That is a meaningless thing that all this weight is put on of. It could be the ultimate affront. If you do the wrong thing with your hat or if you lose it, do you feel like you're no longer a man? But it is just literally a hat. It's nothing.

[Griffin Newman]

It's just a piece of poetry. Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

I gotta say, about tailors and haberdashers during this era. They were fucking cleaning up, okay.

[David Sims]

Go off.

[Ari Aster]

They were making so much money because you gotta think like, these knuckleheads show up, they get a full wardrobe, right? Then they get shot by a Tommy gun. Minutes later, they just then turn out another henchman.

[David Sims]

They're not just gonna patch a hole, they're gonna give you a new hat from scratch.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

If you go to the Shenandoah Club, you know, there's a lot of henchmen up on that.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That upper floor, in that hallway, they were working in.

[David Sims]

In quantity, for sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah. It was a good time.

[David Sims]

Do you know, also, Ben, do you know that the. The reason the Mad Hatter exists as a character is because hat glue used to make people literally insane?

[Ari Aster]

Yeah. They would use mercury, right? Yes.

[David Sims]

So they were cleaning up, but then they were also probably like, hitting themselves in the head almost crazy back then.

[Ari Aster]

You know what I mean? No matter how you travel, it's good.

[David Sims]

To have a plan.

[Ari Aster]

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[David Sims]

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[Ari Aster]

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[David Sims]

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[Ari Aster]

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[David Sims]

Every bar, you'll always know someone by name.

[Griffin Newman]

Jack, Jack and Coke. Shot of Jack.

[Ari Aster]

Jack Daniels, please.

[Griffin Newman]

Right away.

[David Sims]

That's what makes Jack Jack.

[Ari Aster]

Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks.

[David Sims]

Copyright 2025.

[Ari Aster]

Jack Daniels Tennessee whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume, 80 proof. As Ari alluded to, you got three big gangster movies this year. You have Miller's Crossing, which is this sort of stately, almost to a point film, Right. Like, where it's, like. It's so painterly and beautiful. You got Goodfellas which is like Scorsese poking the gangster movie in the eye. I feel like, right. Like, he's like, this isn't. This is not the Godfather. These people were not classy. They did not, like, all dress, like, beautifully and, like, have poetic conversations in dark rooms. They were like weird little psychos as God bless them.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's about how being a gangster is fun.

[Ari Aster]

It's super fun. Someone might shoot you because you were annoying for one minute or said something in the Godfather. It's like, may I have permission to shoot? Yes. Yeah. You know, I love the Godfather, to be clear, but I feel like Scorsese's like, come on. Like, let's.

[David Sims]

And then you have. Was Home Alone.

[Ari Aster]

No. You have the Godfather, Part 3.

[David Sims]

I put home alert in there. I think Home Alone is kind of important in this.

[Ari Aster]

I don't know that the wet bandits were organized crime. I think they were kind of just a service operation.

[David Sims]

That's the pointed satire of the film. They're disorganized crime. What were you going to say about the Godfather Part three?

[Ari Aster]

Well, it's just obviously, that's a flood movie. I don't know if you agree. Maybe you think The Godfather Part 3 is perfect up and down.

[Griffin Newman]

But, you know, I. I do think it's flooded.

[Ari Aster]

It's a movie where you feel like Coppola's maybe not his heart isn't in all of it as much as the first ones. There's lots of interesting stuff, but it's got a bit of a relic. Right. It's, you know, like. And it is also kind of about, like, the gangsters of old, who are so, you know, finally appointed, are getting a little garish. There's a lot of gross money. Right. There's the whole thing with the Vatican, you know, whatever. It's just like. Like tarnishing, you know, and the Miller's Crossing is. Is more the sort of picture perfect, like Norman Rockwell gangsters, I don't know how to describe, which is what they're.

[David Sims]

Obsessed with preserving this sense of, like, this means something.

[Ari Aster]

And the whole Bushido, you know, of, like, if Leo says so, then you got your marching orders. And, like, that's what you do.

[Griffin Newman]

Miller's Crossing is pastiche. And.

[Ari Aster]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's like, you know, like a tribute to a way of making movies and a style of filmmaking that, you know, that is very classic but. But is dead. And so, you know, it's. It. It's not a surprise that that Miller's Crossing, like, wasn't a commercial hit, but now for now, for me, I, I feel like it's such a successful tribute that, like, I, I, I put it with those movies. I put it with.

[David Sims]

Sure. It fits into the.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah. With, with those gangster films of the Easter year, right? Yeah. Of like the, the 30s and 40s and, you know, films like. God, I'm trying to think like I'm a roaring 20s.

[Ari Aster]

It's a little. I mean, those Cagney movies are not quite this energy, I guess.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I, I'm trying to think like, what, what would I put this with? Because it is so hammock that it's, that it makes me think of those books more than it makes me think of any film, which is what they're saying.

[Ari Aster]

Like, they are like, our big inspiration is more books versus us doing our version of the big sleeper. What? You know, like, whatever. You know, Key Largo. I mean, I don't know any gangster movie. There's so many gangster movies that you could think of.

[David Sims]

Well, and for how classical it is, I think it's hard to put it up against the films from the actual error because what it has is the distance and the perspective to be mourning the loss of this.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I mean, it feels like a Michael Curtiz film or something. I mean, as far as how, how they shoot it, how, you know, the, the dialogue is more stylized than anything.

[Ari Aster]

Should I watch every Michael Curtis movie? No, 400.

[Griffin Newman]

There's so many of them. But there, but there are so many great ones. I feel like I've seen so many great ones.

[Ari Aster]

The only gangster movies I've seen is Angels of Dirty Faces, which is very, very good.

[Griffin Newman]

That's great.

[Ari Aster]

But I don't, I, I'm not actually that up to. On, you know, up on his, like, his vast amount of output. I've seen Casablanca, which I'm, I'm a fan of that one.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's good. I actually think that movie's.

[Ari Aster]

I've seen, like, Captain Blood I've seen. But, yeah, I'm not a big mich. I have seen that many years ago.

[Griffin Newman]

Breaking Point, the Seawolf.

[Ari Aster]

Seen that. That sounds good. What's that? What's up with that? Is that a boat movie or a wolf movie?

[Griffin Newman]

It's another boat movie.

[Ari Aster]

Okay.

[David Sims]

Michael K never made a talking wolf movie, did he? Like a talking animal picture?

[Griffin Newman]

No, I don't think so.

[Ari Aster]

He was, what, Hungarian, Right? Yes. Anyway, okay. Miller's Crossing. This is their second Circle film, which Blood. Blood Sip will also.

[David Sims]

Yeah, Circle just signs up and is like, we get it. We're in The. The Cohen's business for the long term.

[Ari Aster]

It's 20th Century Fox who funds most of the MO who had obviously done Raising Arizona. Ben Barinholtz is the guy they're working with. And basically they had this arrangement early in their career. Circle Film was basically like, do what you want. We'll sell the movie. And, you know, I mean, there's nothing like that arrangement now. Like, the way things worked back then does seem kind of unique. Or maybe the art film scene was a little.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, you had, you know, you had home video in the piece. And that. That just.

[Ari Aster]

That.

[Griffin Newman]

That made everything less of a risk. You know, like, if it doesn't make its money in theaters, it's. It's. You know, it's. It's gonna make its. Its money on. On video.

[David Sims]

This movie was seen as a flop, but it also cost less than $10 million.

[Ari Aster]

So, yes, the budget's a little.

[David Sims]

Right. They're like, between foreign sales and TV and video, I'm not worried.

[Griffin Newman]

I think they're only. Their only meaningful flop was. Was Hudspraxy.

[Ari Aster]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the only one that ever, you know, probably like, led to some serious discussions about, like, how do we play the next one?

[Ari Aster]

Yes. Right. We actually need to think, be sort of thoughtful of our budget. Next.

[David Sims]

And now this also feels like a movie that today, even if a studio were to say, sure, we'll make this, it would be green light. Contingent on you getting one of 10 actors.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

That they could get people to sign up. Right. That. Well, that's contingent on you getting five of them. Right.

[Ari Aster]

Get a bunch of big actors.

[Griffin Newman]

Gabriel Byrne is not a star.

[David Sims]

Exactly.

[Ari Aster]

No.

[David Sims]

And be like. And by the way, this is our guy we're picking. And they're like the fifth lead from Excalibur.

[Ari Aster]

Right. A casting director turns them on to him.

[Griffin Newman]

He.

[Ari Aster]

Right. He'd done Excalibur and, like, the Keep and, you know, Lion Heart. You know, it's like, he's a guy. He's not famous at all.

[David Sims]

Ever been the center of a movie?

[Ari Aster]

Certainly not a Hollywood film, not a big movie.

[David Sims]

And then he basically becomes shorthand for noir for the rest of the 90s.

[Ari Aster]

Now, you've worked with Gabriel Byrne.

[Griffin Newman]

I have. And. And he's one of my favorite people. He's a. He's a really, really wonderful man.

[Ari Aster]

Famously a guy I've seen on the street many times for some reason, to.

[Griffin Newman]

The point where I was like, let's say hello.

[David Sims]

He's.

[Griffin Newman]

He's just a good guy.

[David Sims]

He's Brooklynite.

[Ari Aster]

I am a big fan of what happens to him and Hereditary. I think one time I interviewed you. I just think it's so funny that if you think about that movie just from Gabriel Byrne's perspective.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he really didn't ask for any of this.

[Ari Aster]

He asks for none of it. Almost every scene he's like. Like what? Like as. As some fucking insane, you know, further breakdown is occurred and then he just catches on fire. And that's the. I'm sorry that I'm spoiling all your movies on this podcast.

[Griffin Newman]

Fine. I mean, but if you, if you.

[Ari Aster]

Rewatch Hereditary and you're like, let me just get right into Burns perspective. He really shouldn't have married her. I'm sorry to say. Sorry to be rude to Tony, who's, you know, a luminous creature or whatever, but he should not have married into that family.

[Griffin Newman]

No, he, you know, he. He took a wrong turn somewhere.

[David Sims]

Was casting him in Hereditary, partially inspired by this.

[Griffin Newman]

Is this performance of his. Yeah, I was super starstruck by him because. Because of this.

[Ari Aster]

And he's got an iconic face, like a low key iconic.

[David Sims]

No one has.

[Griffin Newman]

Nobody really looks like a great face, great eyes, great presence. Very like there. He's just a very grounded, like, authoritative, you know, you just. You take him seriously and incredible deep.

[David Sims]

Well of bottled emotion. You can just cut to him listening to a conversation and be endly, endlessly fascinated by what is this guy thinking right now?

[Griffin Newman]

He's.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, they love him. He is the one who insists on the Irish accent, which they're resistant to. But obviously I think, good, good call.

[David Sims]

It's also a light lilt.

[Ari Aster]

And sure, yeah, he's not like, oh, hello. You know.

[David Sims]

Yeah, no, it's not chomping on potatoes, but it helps in this way that, like, these people are the early wave of Americanization. They're all kind of one foot in, one foot out.

[Griffin Newman]

It also makes him a bit of an outsider in the film.

[David Sims]

Absolutely.

[Griffin Newman]

Even though, Even though Leo, you know, the Albert Finney character is also, you know, ostensibly, you know, like Irish, and Finney has similar.

[David Sims]

He's putting a little tiny inflection sometimes. Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

He says, obviously, as you often will hear about, Cohen's directing style would be fairly just kind of like, you know, rudimentary or not, not too involved. And one point he said, what's the significance of the hat? And Ethan replied. And that was it.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ari Aster]

Another point he said, like, I think in the scene, I'll, like, walk out of the room, I'll put the drink down, walk out of the room. And they were like, he would never leave a drink, like, in the glass, finish the drink.

[David Sims]

But that's good direction.

[Ari Aster]

That's what I mean. Like, they're on. They're on those points. Like.

[David Sims]

Right. That's a key detail of the character.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, obviously. Right. Trey Wilson dies right before the shoots. Fart's going to. They delay 10 days, and Albert Finney pops in.

[David Sims]

Like, how do they even get through to him?

[Ari Aster]

I know they're at Fox 1, 800, Albert. No, I don't. I don't know. Finney says he also. Finney apparently also got a little. Put a little more Irish on it. Ethan. Quote from Ethan Cohen, we got mugged by the Irish. Albert Finney, of course, is not Irish, but he is British. And, yeah, he just really wanted to do it. And he was really into the. The attendant thing. He begged for that. They were like, no. And he was like, please. I mean, British guys love to dress in drag. Like, that is number one. Like, you know, just to do some panto, essentially. Yeah. This is Marcia Gay Harden.

[Griffin Newman]

The tea over there.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, 100%. This is Marcia Gay Harden's, like, first role, basically, in a movie. She's in Angels in America on Broadway.

[David Sims]

Okay. But she didn't originate it.

[Ari Aster]

Yes, she did.

[David Sims]

But Deborah Messing originated.

[Ari Aster]

You thought very wrong, my friend.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Ari Aster]

But that, I think, is actually maybe after this. Yeah, that's in, like, 93.

[David Sims]

This is one of those performances where I. When I. When I saw this for the first time, I went like. I kind of now understand better why she won the Oscar for Pollack.

[Griffin Newman]

It's also because she says, in that movie, you've done it, Pollock. You broke it wide open. Which is something you have to do in a biopic.

[David Sims]

You have to say.

[Griffin Newman]

You have to have somebody say, this is history.

[David Sims]

No pressure, but if you fleck this paint correctly, you might be remembered for the rest of time.

[Ari Aster]

Best scene. The best scene in Pollock is when he's biking and he's got all the fucking booze on the bike, and he falls off the bike. I don't see.

[David Sims]

I don't think she's bad in Pollock, but this is one of those things where you.

[Ari Aster]

I haven't seen it in 30 years.

[David Sims]

Performances Someone gives before they win the sort of surprise Oscar. And you're like, oh, this is everyone, years later, catching up and being like, we probably should have given her more credit earlier. She's phenomenal in this.

[Ari Aster]

She's a great actor.

[Griffin Newman]

She's great in this. She's very. She's Very sexy. Are you allowed to say that?

[David Sims]

We're allowed to say that, yeah.

[Ari Aster]

We don't tone police on this podcast, okay? We are allowed to call Marcia gay Harden, circa 1990, sensuous.

[David Sims]

She's. She's very sexy.

[Ari Aster]

Very, very smoky sexy. I feel like, you know, they're. Again, you know, like they're evoking.

[David Sims]

Obviously, the sexiest performance in this film is John Polito.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, Polito is one of the. The best actors to ever do it, you know?

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

John Plato is so amazing.

[Ari Aster]

He. I mean, apparently basically just walked in and they were like, great. Like, you know, like they saw tons of guys.

[Griffin Newman]

Then he walked in, and he continues to be amazing in all of their films as. As Creighton Tolliver.

[Ari Aster]

He. He feels like they built these sets, though, and he just walked in. You know what I mean? Like, the sets just summoned him in costume. Like they didn't even have to find out about him. He's great, and I love him in Lebowski.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, of course.

[Ari Aster]

He's so funny in that movie as a brother.

[Griffin Newman]

Seamus.

[Ari Aster]

Yes, exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

He's one of those great character actors because he just is a type. Like, he's just.

[Ari Aster]

He.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, you couldn't get somebody to play Johnny Casper who wasn't Johnny Casper.

[David Sims]

I'm trying to see if I can find this because it doesn't look like JJ put it in the dossier, but I think it's his random roles he did for the AV Club, where he talks about that he wanted this role really badly. And the Cohen's wouldn't see him for it because he had read maybe for Blood Simple. And at that point he was like, I was a heartthrob. I had a full head of hair, and I was like 40 pounds lighter. And they were like, that guy's a pretty boy. And he kept being like, you don't understand what I look like now. And he was saying this all with this attitude of, I'm so glad I'm no longer a pretty boy and I could get to play guys like Johnny Caspar. Like, there was this part of him that this was always in his soul and the body was wrong for a while, and then he aged like milk and walked in and they were like, as you said, holy shit, you're right. You're perfect. And it was like finally unlocked for him of like, this is the guy I've always wanted to be. This movie, it is astonishing to me that it didn't get a supporting actor nomination. But then every time I watch it, having Only seen it two times. I'm doing the math, being like, well, who do you put?

[Ari Aster]

Well, Turturro got critic awards and critic attention. I feel like Turtle probably was the play because it's the showiest performance.

[David Sims]

And Finini would have been a star student. Right?

[Ari Aster]

Obviously.

[David Sims]

But then Polito, I think, look, I love Police, the MVP of this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Polito is amazing. I love. Did somebody hit you?

[Ari Aster]

Just the look.

[Griffin Newman]

What's a matter?

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Coming in with the little sailor outfit.

[Ari Aster]

This is the first Turturro collaboration that he went to school with Frances McDormand, so they knew him, obviously. He also just sort of feels like a guy that's been in Coen Brothers.

[David Sims]

Movies that they built in a laugh.

[Ari Aster]

100%. And I do think that he's amazing.

[David Sims]

Like, yes.

[Ari Aster]

He's. You just want to reach in the screen and punch him. Like, he's so awful and slimy and, like, so satisfied with himself.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

He's so unafraid of being a little douchebag.

[David Sims]

The scene where he comes back and.

[Ari Aster]

Like, same in the Spike Lee movie. You know what I mean? Like, I just feel like that was his. Like, he's like, yeah, yeah, the right thing.

[Griffin Newman]

And, yeah, this is the year after Jungle Fever.

[Ari Aster]

He's so, so nasty in that one. Yes.

[David Sims]

But that. The scene where he shows up and now is, like, really feeling himself. I actually hold all the cards. Right. I'm gonna tell you what's up, Tom. And then within that, he starts to break down about his vulnerability of. The actual reason he has to put his thumb on Tom is because Tom saw him break, and he doesn't want Tom breaking his tough guy image. And then he flips it back into, if you ever tried to shoot me again. I just scored a few tears. Like, this flip of, I actually have the power because, you know, I'm not powerful. But also, if you ever try to get the power back on me, I'll pretend I'm pitiful again. When in reality, that wasn't a fucking move from him.

[Ari Aster]

No, he doesn't want to die. Yes. I mean, he's. I guess, the kind of guy that, like, if. If Tom has a gun pointed at him, he's probably just going to, like, stoically be like, all right. Right. I mean, he's probably not gonna drop to his knees and go, look at your heart.

[David Sims]

You know, he'd do it again. He's still.

[Ari Aster]

Bernie would do it. I'm saying, like, that's in Bernie's nature.

[David Sims]

Tom would just. Yeah, he'd Take it.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, yeah. Steve Buscemi gets the part because he can say the lines. Essentially they were like, we need someone fast. Ethan calls it a lost art, like horseback riding, which I like. And of course Sam Raimi's in this film. They're still very close with him. They filmed the shoot in New Orleans, which I feel like is a classic place to film all the way up to now because it has all this old fashioned architecture that you can still just use. It's why Ben, like Fincher uses it for Benjamin Button and all right. You know, like you just like free production.

[Griffin Newman]

Okie.

[Ari Aster]

Yes. Right. That's Hammond, Louisiana is the, the, is Miller's Crossing. The, the trees and all that. But yeah, like, right. The, the general look is brown. Where did you shoot Eddington? You shot Eddington in New Mexico, in Arizona or like around there?

[Griffin Newman]

I shot Eddington in New Mexico. Primarily Truth or Consequences, but also a lot of stuff outside of Albuquerque and in Madrid. And I grew up in New Mexico. This is my New Mexico movie.

[Ari Aster]

My cousin lives in Silver City, which I think of as the sort of wrong side of New Mexico. Not in a bad way, but not near all the sort of New Mexico stuff. Like you're not going to go get ceramics or, or see opera or like, like visit the Georgia o' Keeffe house or whatever. It's all the way on the other side. But it is very, very, very cool over there.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, it's, I, I, it's a, it's a very specific place.

[David Sims]

A weird place.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a weird place.

[David Sims]

I found the Polito interview. It was, he had done Death of a Salesman and they had seen him in that and he was 35, 150 pounds lighter, full head of hair. And they called him in and wanted him to read for the Dane because they were like, that's his physical type. And he was like between 35 and 39. I aged like 30 years, doubled my weight, lost my hair and had to beg them to let him read for Casper. And then when he walked in the room they were like, oh, you didn't tell us you look like this now.

[Ari Aster]

Very Sonnenfeld. This is the last time he works with them. They wanted him. They just kept saying handsome and he didn't like that word. And they went back and forth and back and forth. And finally Sonnenfeld said, quote, what if we just make it look nice? And they were like, yeah, that'd be great. So they agreed on nice versus handsome. But they, you know, I feel like they're, they want to Be more conventional, less flashy. Right. Like not as it's a deeply brown. Yeah. And the camera needs to be more stationary and it's a lot of conversation. So we're going to be, you know, being conventional.

[Griffin Newman]

Their films with Sonnenfeld are, you know, the lighting is a lot more flat than what Deakins brings. He brings them like a lot more mood and a lot more texture and, and depth.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

Sonnenfeld never shoots another movie again. Right. Like this is it like Adam's family is what, 91 or 92.

[Griffin Newman]

And Sonnenfeld's films once he starts directing look like these films.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Like Get Shorty, you know, kind of looks like a contemporary Miller's.

[David Sims]

Yeah. No, absolutely.

[Ari Aster]

He shot Misery the same year he shoots Misery for It's Right.

[David Sims]

And When Her Met Sal is the year before this.

[Ari Aster]

Yes. And then that's it. And Addam's family is 91 so it's like really much, you know. And like look, those early Sonnenfeld movies are so good looking. Like I love those 90s Sonic movies. Like they look fabulous. Like Adam's family values is a masterpiece. Men in Black is wonderful.

[David Sims]

And then Wild Wild west still looks good.

[Ari Aster]

Sure.

[David Sims]

I'd argue everything from the 2000s on stops looking good.

[Ari Aster]

It's weird that they stopped looking good. That's what I was trying to describe him. And it's not like I hate Barry Seinfeld and I know you weren't worked with Barry Sonnenfeld but like I, I never, I guess he never worked directly with him.

[David Sims]

He had a contractual position. I, I just, I want to make clear with no description, I never met the man.

[Ari Aster]

But it is odd that he went away from the really ornate stuff like and started doing more conventional comedies.

[David Sims]

RV looks insane.

[Ari Aster]

Okay.

[David Sims]

He's doing a thing in that or whoever his DP is but it's, it's, I would say not successful. And then seen rv?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Runaway Vacation.

[Griffin Newman]

I have, yes, I've seen it. I, I saw it in theaters and it didn't make the biggest impression on me.

[Ari Aster]

Fair enough.

[David Sims]

It didn't make your site and sound top 10, right? No, I'm trying to remember. It was 11 on the list.

[Griffin Newman]

It was edged out.

[David Sims]

Yeah. That has like the widest angle lenses in the world and has the color palette of like a bag of skittles. But then like nine Lives looks terrible. Sure.

[Ari Aster]

Well there were some challenges with that one probably. Carter Burwell score. You could say this, about half a dozen Carter Burwell scores for the Cohen's but it might Be the best score he ever gave him.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, it's great.

[Ari Aster]

He's got so many great scores.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's very romantic, right.

[Ari Aster]

Using these Irish melodies and, like, all that stuff.

[David Sims]

He can identify how in the middle of a piece, he can just hit one note that suddenly fills the entire thing with dread and melancholy.

[Ari Aster]

They have Frank Patterson, the singer, like, record a new version. Like, that's not a vintage Danny Boy. Like, that's a. That's an original Danny Boy.

[Griffin Newman]

That's probably the best sequence in the film. Yeah, it's. It's pretty amazing.

[David Sims]

It's transcendent.

[Ari Aster]

What do you think of the guy going the. Shooting the Tommy gun in a circle like, five times while he's dying?

[Griffin Newman]

It's just the greatest.

[Ari Aster]

I agree, I agree, I agree. If you don't like that, then, like, you can just take your toys and go home. Different people. Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And one of my favorite traditions in, you know, just. Just in movies is, you know, the gun that. That has endless ammo. And I feel like that's a gag that they kind of keep going back to, like when the bar is being shot up by all the cops and there's the. Just that, you know, it's just endless.

[Ari Aster]

You know what's fallen out of favor when. When characters are shot by a Tommy gun and they go like this. Yes. Like. Like the. The real gyrating.

[David Sims]

They still standing up straight, taking the bullet. Bullet after bullet. It's the Robocop board.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

The guy who does not lose his ability to stay upright while being filled with, like, 800.

[Ari Aster]

He gets. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Which. Which also. Which also happens to. To Peter Weller.

[Ari Aster]

Yes, yes. He get shot one gazillion times, but.

[David Sims]

You don't fall over until the squib stop. Was Edington upright And take the Swiss cheese.

[Ari Aster]

Your first gun movie, Right? Are there guns in bow?

[Griffin Newman]

There are. There. There are guns in bow. Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

But, like, Eddington is like, action. Like, I feel like you'd never directed, like, gun action in that scale before.

[Griffin Newman]

Beau has action scenes in it. They're just Casey and they're comic, but they're.

[Ari Aster]

But it's amazing.

[Griffin Newman]

It's actually the same. It's actually the same challenge, which is like, how do I sustain this action for as long as possible? You know, an action is just cause and effect. And. And. But the Cohens are masters of. Of prolonging set pieces, which, again, is the Rube Goldberg thing. Right.

[Ari Aster]

You kind of can't believe we're still going. Yes, yes.

[Griffin Newman]

But. But Eddington is the first Time. I've done, like, maybe what I guess you might call proper action, even though it's meant to be funny as well.

[David Sims]

You have, like. Right. All the Denis Minoche chase stuff and Bo.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, exactly right.

[David Sims]

Which feels a little. Raising Arizona. Yeah. We've been saying this in other episodes that I'm sure will come out 15 years from now, but they are, like, for not being thought of as action filmmakers at all. Anytime they do an action sequence, you are reminded they are amongst the best on the planet. I mean, obviously, like, they have as good a sense.

[Griffin Newman]

No country.

[David Sims]

They're better at establishing spatial geography.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, no, they're. They're. They're incredibly lucid. Everything they do is right. In some ways, they feel to me like the true successors to Hitchcock. And I mean, they're the opposite in that in their method where Hitchcock would do. Or. Sorry, I'm saying I said Hitchcock. I actually meant Kubrick, but. But both actually. They. So now that I'm scrambled and I. And I said Hitchcock, but I. I. But I said Hitchcock for a reason. Even though it was an accident. It was positive Freudian, which is, you know, that they. Their films are incredibly designed. And when I was saying Kubrick and I was saying, you know, opposite methods, which is, you know, that he would do endless takes, and they. They tend to do very few takes. I find that their films are immaculately made. And then I think what really ties them to Kubrick is. Is their sense of humor.

[Ari Aster]

Right. This particular kind of sense, which is like, something.

[Griffin Newman]

It's something between. Well, it's. It's. It's. It's sort of misanthropic. But then at the same time, it's also, you know, they're just Jews. It just varied. Jewish.

[David Sims]

It does boil down to that.

[Ari Aster]

Whereas Hitchcock is just British. Like, and, like, all of his weird. You're like, right, he's just a weird British guy. And, like, they are just Jews. And this. I mean, like, what I'm thinking of. No country. Like, no country is like, would you. Would you take the money? Right. You know, like, right at the start, like, there's a big briefcase full of money and, like, the Jewish mother in me or the Jewish. Like, part of me is like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, if you take that money, like, Javier Bardem's gonna shoot you.

[David Sims]

Right?

[Ari Aster]

You know, like, I can't. Yeah, Right. Well, we're gonna. We'll talk about it on that episode. Ben, usually in these. When he watches these movies is like, I would take the money and be.

[David Sims]

Fine if I were in this movie, it would end with me owning an island and being happy. I'd make the right choice.

[Ari Aster]

Like Ben watched Sam Raimi's simple plan and was like, yeah, that would work out.

[David Sims]

I could solve this. On WhatsApp, no one can see or hear your personal messages.

[Griffin Newman]

Whether it's a voice call message or.

[David Sims]

Sending a password to WhatsApp, it's all just this. So whether you're sharing the streaming password in the family chat or trading those late night voice messages that could, could basically become a podcast, your personal messages stay between you, your friends and your family.

[Ari Aster]

No one else, not even us.

[David Sims]

WhatsApp message privately with everyone.

[Ari Aster]

Leo Bannon is the mobster of a town, city, Whatever. We don't need to. We don't care to know what it is. I guess in the pro in prohibition, yes, he's the Irish boss of what I consider to be sort of like a mid sized city. Right. Like, this is not New York, Louisiana Or Chicago. Right.

[David Sims]

Doesn't seem like it.

[Ari Aster]

Like it's, it feels more just like Gangsterville.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Although if, I'm not sure if it's not Chicago, maybe it's.

[Ari Aster]

It feels, it just feels like smaller than Chicago, if that makes sense. Just because it is like he has a nice house and he has a nice club, it doesn't feel like he runs this like, big industrial city. And like the mayor is just a schmo that he knows and the chief of police is another schmo and all that. But he really likes this girl, Verna.

[David Sims]

Birnbaum, I guess is her name, Leo's twist.

[Ari Aster]

And she's related to. She's the sister of Bernie, who is a bookie who has been skimming off of the match fixing arranged by Italian gangster Johnny Casper. And Johnny wants him dead and Leo doesn't want him dead because he doesn't want to piss off Vernon and Tommy. And Tom is in this situation of like, do I give. You know, my boss really needs to kill this annoying Jewish guy. God bless you, Bernie. I'm Jewish, just to be clear, but I do hate Bernie because he's Jewish, obviously.

[David Sims]

Bernie Sanders.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah, you backed yourself into that one, my brother.

[Ari Aster]

You know, like, Tom is like torn between, like, I must show loyalty to my capo, you know, like, right, you know, like, I have to be like a loyal soldier. And like, I'm watching Leo piss it away. And Leo, maybe because he's old, maybe because he's getting sentimental or whatever, is just like, I'll be fine. Like, who cares? Like, he has this, like, kind of suave, like, you know, like. Like I deserve to be in love. I don't know. Am I? Does anyone want to. I'm just summarizing the plot of Miller's Crossing at this point, I feel.

[David Sims]

Well, you've left the Dane out of it before.

[Griffin Newman]

We leave the Jewish thing too early?

[Ari Aster]

No, I think never leave.

[Griffin Newman]

I just think. I think there's also this really interesting thing that happens when they first start making films where especially Jewish critics like J. Hoberman.

[Ari Aster]

Right. Are like, alarmed.

[Griffin Newman]

Accuse them of being anti Semitic. Which is so. So weird. And there is an interesting tradition among Jewish critics to. To disdain Jewish filmmakers.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

I won't expound too much further on.

[Ari Aster]

That because as a Jewish filmmaker.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, as a Jewish filmmaker who has recognized that. That tradition playing out before his very.

[Ari Aster]

Eyes, I. I think there can be this reactionary sense sometimes like a month, you know, of just like, don't get us in trouble. Or don't, like, sort of like, shine a spotlight on all our nonsense or I don't know what it is, you know, like.

[Griffin Newman]

Or is it.

[David Sims]

It.

[Griffin Newman]

Why these Jewish guys.

[Ari Aster]

I'm guy. Maybe it's just rank jealousy there also.

[David Sims]

There is a thing we've talked about. And the Coen brothers are like a big notable exception from this trend. But very often when the highest level, most prominent Jewish filmmakers finally make their sort of explicitly, culturally Jewish movie, it feels like they are trying to goy wash it a little bit. There is this feeling that I've always found fascinating within these studios that are often run by Jewish people. And these filmmakers that are predominantly Jewish making Jewish family movies and being like. But it can't be too Jewish.

[Ari Aster]

What are you thinking of?

[David Sims]

I mean, we talked about a bit with the fable. Yes, sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, that's funny because. Yeah, the Fableman's and the. And Serious man couldn't be right further. Like, it's like those are two very different Jewish.

[Ari Aster]

Jewish American films. You know, it's like Serious man to me is like the ultimate film about being like, Jewish American. Yeah, right. Like that sort of crazy dichotomy.

[Griffin Newman]

Especially the great movie about Jewishness.

[David Sims]

On your sight and sound. Top 10. Right. I think that was your. It's Serious Man.

[Griffin Newman]

It's another one that. Well, Serious man is there.

[Ari Aster]

It is. It is there. Wow. I have this right here.

[Griffin Newman]

It's there right under Showa.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ari Aster]

You're right.

[David Sims]

They're the two.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, the double feature.

[David Sims]

But Armageddon Time was the same year as failments. I love both of those movies.

[Ari Aster]

Right.

[David Sims]

But they both have that thing of not casting a single Jewish actor.

[Ari Aster]

Well, with Armageddon Time, I'm very sympathetic to James Grade needs actors who are famous to fund his movies and all that. But whereas Fabelman's. It was kind of interesting, but Fabelman's felt very honest to me from Spielberg in terms of, like, this is about my Jewish identity and my upbringing. But we were also this kind of assimilationist family. And it's like, it's very vital to that movie. I love that movie.

[David Sims]

The one I always throw out.

[Ari Aster]

His punching bag is Armageddon Time is like, we live on poisoned land. Yes. A darker film.

[David Sims]

The one I always throw out as the punching bag is. Is. Is Sean Levy's. This is Where I Leave you.

[Ari Aster]

Sure, sure.

[David Sims]

A sitting movie with a family comprised of Jane Fonda, Justin Baitman, Jason Batman, Tina Fey, Adam Driver. Adam Driver, Corey Stole. Yes.

[Ari Aster]

No, no, I've never seen that film.

[David Sims]

Deeply bizarre. That's on my site in Soundtop 10.

[Ari Aster]

Of course.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And there's like, you know, 10 Woody movies.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah. Who? What? Which guy? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

But that becomes like his sub genre. Right. Like, I feel like he's viewed as one of the few guys who. Where it's like, this guy makes Jewish family movies.

[Ari Aster]

Yes.

[David Sims]

In a sort of sustained way.

[Ari Aster]

He didn't make a lot of movies about his childhood.

[David Sims]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, there's Radio Days.

[Ari Aster]

There's Radio Days. There's the stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

There's a lot of stuff in any hall.

[Ari Aster]

Right. But he rarely did the. You know, he never made the Fableman's real.

[David Sims]

Radio Days is kind of Radio Days Radio.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It's the closest. Yeah. Yeah. I do think there's some weird kind of like, call is coming from inside the house thing with the way people reacted to this at the time.

[Ari Aster]

But not Miller's. Wait, wait, no.

[David Sims]

When you were saying the. The sense of some accusations of this movie being anti Semitic.

[Ari Aster]

Right. Or their general. Well, because like, also, like, again, John turturro, who is 100 Italian guy.

[David Sims]

Isn't that Anthony Quinn Motive. This guy has a lot of faith, so we'll have him play every single ethnicity.

[Ari Aster]

But also, like, it's like this quiz show. I feel like there's a Barton Fink.

[David Sims]

He had a big Jew run.

[Ari Aster]

Right. He was playing these kind of these Jewish characters who are often, like, perceived by the world to be very annoying in the movie.

[David Sims]

I mean, that is what Quiz show is about.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah. Quiz show is basically just the whole movie is them rubbing their temples, being like. But he's so annoying on television.

[David Sims]

TV executives will literally commit fraud in order to get John Turturro off television.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, yeah, yeah. If it were radio, it would have been fine.

[David Sims]

Absolutely.

[Ari Aster]

And this movie is just like. You know, the problem is if. If they just fucking shoot. Bernie is like, we're fine. Right. Like, there's no plot.

[David Sims]

I think.

[Ari Aster]

So I guess Verna breaks up with Leo. Or is Casper probably going to, like, cause trouble anyway?

[Griffin Newman]

No, I mean, there's. There's still a movie probably, but it would just. But, you know, but this is such a. Like a. There are a lot of dominoes here. So that's just one. That's just one of the dominoes.

[David Sims]

I. I think the. The world around is acknowledging what you called out or sensing what you called out, which is like, is Leo getting a little complacent?

[Ari Aster]

Yeah. And a little bit soft.

[David Sims]

Is there an ability to grab the chair here? It just feels like there's an energy swirling around of, like, can the hierarchy of power change in the D.C. universe?

[Ari Aster]

Right. And Black Adam is just lurking around the corner. No. What happens in this movie is like, Leo gets more power, knocks off his enemies, I guess, gets married to the lady he loves at the cost basically of his buddy Tom being friends with him. He really doesn't lose. Like, it's actually. Everything works out great for him.

[David Sims]

But also Tom is the one who.

[Ari Aster]

Tom takes a bunch of punches. Tom makes all this happen through and like, Tom sacrifices their friendship, I guess, or decides not to be friends with them anymore.

[David Sims]

There's this feeling for all of the internal conflict. The movie almost circles all the way back to the starting point. Obviously a tremendous amount has happened at the center, but in terms of the key dynamics between the three people, they've all reset to where they were at the beginning.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, it feels like Tom. By the end, you realize that Tom was ready to sacrifice everything to basically just win Leo the. The war, you know, like, like to basically, like, like Leo gets himself into this fix and Tom doesn't agree with it, but every. But everything that happens in the film is kind of revealed to be Tom, despite, you know, having misgivings there, like, you know, kind of putting himself in hot water to. To get Leo out of this.

[David Sims]

He basically has two great loves in his life that are almost equal. Who are Verna and Leo?

[Ari Aster]

I would say his two great loves are booze and gambling.

[David Sims]

But yes, drink and. And game.

[Ari Aster]

Right. But I mean, his relationship with Berna, Verna is not loving. He doesn't seem like a guy who's very good at being emotional.

[David Sims]

He's in love with her. It's not a loving relationship.

[Ari Aster]

Definitely obsessed with her.

[David Sims]

Right. But that's what I'm saying in both cases, like the whole thing of him getting in the fight with.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, he loves Leo more. I think that's what it is, is that. Is that he. He has really strong feelings for her, but he. He can't, you know, he can't allow it. The moment we're fighting the fact that he's doing it.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ari Aster]

He's doing it.

[Griffin Newman]

But he gets in the fight with.

[David Sims]

Leo to say to her, I love you, because he can never say that. And even when she calls him out, he won't admit it. Right. And likewise, the entire movie is his way of saying I love you to Leo, which he could never say verbally. And the moment he decides to actually shoot Bernie is the moment that his love for Leo trumps his love for Verna. That's true in my mind. Not to over.

[Ari Aster]

He's also pretty sick of Bernie at that point.

[David Sims]

A huge part of it. But there is this kind of like.

[Griffin Newman]

Also Bernie has to die so that Albert Finney can go to the funeral and wear a yarmulke.

[David Sims]

One of the greatest decisions.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is just such a funny.

[David Sims]

Do you know what I love about that moment? I love imagining this entirely dramatic scene playing out and the Cohen's just laughing hysterically behind the monitor at we got Alberta Finney to wear a yamaka. That it was the only thing they were paying attention to. It is the most justified the entire movie. You're right. Is setting up just to get to that one image.

[Griffin Newman]

But.

[Ari Aster]

But it's also, I mean, the emotional decision. I like. I don't think Tom makes a strategic decision in not killing Bernie. Right. Like, no, that's. That is his heart, I agree. Or whatever getting the better of him. But don't you think.

[David Sims]

Yes. No, because if he was doing it for Verna, he would have told her much sooner. He holds onto it for so long, lets her hate him.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, no, I think he's doing it for her in the truest sense.

[Ari Aster]

When he says look into your heart, that's literally what he's. She's in his heart.

[David Sims]

But he's not letting himself get any credit with her for doing that.

[Ari Aster]

Because like that scene is so iconic. Obviously it's the. The poster of the film and it's sort of the best title.

[David Sims]

It's the notion of what happens in this place in the deep world.

[Ari Aster]

It's so funny because it's like, yeah. He throws his shot away and he's like, get out of here. I'll never see you again. Bernie is back in 10 minutes.

[David Sims]

Right?

[Ari Aster]

Bernie. Do you think Bernie even, like, goes to another town? He just, like, does a walk around the forest and it's like he starts.

[Griffin Newman]

Feeling embarrassed and he's like, I don't like this feeling. Right. Fuck him. Right?

[David Sims]

What am I going to do with my life? Like, I ultimate threat is like, I'm going to start going to Bernie France.

[Ari Aster]

Right? Yeah. Yeah. That is a good threat. Yes.

[David Sims]

No, that's what's so stupid about it, is like, you can't trust this guy for a millisecond. He's going to get so antsy so quick. Well.

[Griffin Newman]

Because ethically, he's kind of shaky.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

You think Bernie. Yeah, he's not. He doesn't have, like, a rigid moral code that he abides by or anything like that.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm quoting John Polito, just to be clear.

[Ari Aster]

Yes. There's one moment where they use the word glitch in this movie.

[David Sims]

Oh, interesting.

[Ari Aster]

Oh, no, no, I'm sorry. That's in no country. Sorry. I was also Right now, anyway.

[David Sims]

And Wreck It Ralph, that's the movie you're thinking of.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

They use the term glitch.

[Ari Aster]

They do. You see America, Ralph. You're Finn.

[Griffin Newman]

Wreck It Ralph never saw it.

[David Sims]

Princess Vanilla.

[Griffin Newman]

Isn't that John C. Reilly? Yeah, I'm a John C. Reilly fan.

[David Sims]

I mean, additional writing credit. John C. Reilly as well. Well, I think he did a pass on his dialogue.

[Griffin Newman]

Maybe I'll watch it.

[David Sims]

Ben's Number one hero, Dr. Steve Brule. Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

So. Yeah. So, okay, so Leo is. Johnny's basically saying, I want to kill this guy Bernie. Leo will not lift his protection on Bernie. And so a sort of mob war heats up in the background, which is mostly like them just with each other's clubs and Tom getting, you know, the beat out of him. I think the scene where who's the big guy, who Tom hits with the chair, who's the actor?

[Griffin Newman]

He's the guy from Dumb and Dumber.

[Ari Aster]

Exactly like that. That it's. It's one of those guys. Wait, he's the guy with the most annoying sound in the world?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. And. And he's the one who goes, jesus, Tom.

[Ari Aster]

Jesus, Tom.

[Griffin Newman]

There's a little piece of trivia there that. That gets cut out of the Criterion version.

[Ari Aster]

What? Why?

[Griffin Newman]

I. So my. My editor, Luke Johnston, is Joel's editor right now. Luke's been working with him since Buster Scruggs I. I know that they went back into the cut and they. And they just took out a few things. And one of the things is him saying, jesus, Tom, that's so funny. Another is the woman in the Shenandoah Club who's like.

[Ari Aster]

Who goes?

[Griffin Newman]

Who, who. Who screams that.

[Ari Aster]

I can see them being like. Like we're being a little too silly here. Like, I can sort of understand losing that moment because it's almost like a raising Arizona moment in Miller's Crossing.

[Griffin Newman]

Raising Arizona. They do it in Hudsucker, too. When, When.

[Ari Aster]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

When he says flats.

[Ari Aster]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And there's the. The big lady. It's there. It's always a big lady.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

But isn't there also a moment in the Hudsucker at the party where he tries to speak. I forget what language it is. And says the thing that offends the one so dearly. They do the same moment again in the What?

[Griffin Newman]

In the.

[David Sims]

In Hudsucker. He's at.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, well, there's our gallery. No.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

There's the blue letter.

[David Sims]

Right, right.

[Griffin Newman]

Where, like, he comes in with the blue letter and we push into the screaming mouth of.

[Ari Aster]

Oh, yeah.

[David Sims]

The greatest.

[Griffin Newman]

Of one of the women in the. In the. The waiting room.

[David Sims]

Yes. The Paul Newman secretary. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And then. What's the one you're talking about? You're talking about.

[David Sims]

Maybe I'm. I'm confusing this, but there's at the. The Peter Gallagher ball.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, Peter Gallagher. There are the two, like, rich women.

[David Sims]

Yes. I think ladies speak to the woman in like. And says something that's accidentally.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, right. He says something in. I don't know if it's Dutch, but. And then the woman is scandalized and she screams and the guy throws his martini in his face and punches him.

[David Sims]

Right. But it feels. That's a very Raimi influenced thing that feels like. Right. The evil in the woods as the camera. Those moments where they go off. Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

In this early chunk of the movie, you have this sense of like, everyone's still with Leo, the cops and the political firm, but Tom is sort of pointing out over and over again like your. Your support is kind of weak.

[David Sims]

The moment the cops come in and raid Casper.

[Ari Aster]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Yes. No, but even his weird, like, hideout.

[Ari Aster]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ari Aster]

His. His.

[David Sims]

Right. Guess they had been his warehouse.

[Ari Aster]

Right.

[David Sims]

The gambling.

[Ari Aster]

Right.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Yeah. Just this feeling of there still are all these gentlemen agreements that are holding all these systems together.

[Ari Aster]

Then they try to kill Leo. The Tommy Gun sequence we talked about, I mean, that sequence is perfect, but it's after that that Tom admits to Leo, like, you know, bernie is not worth it. Verna is not worth it. She, for example, I am having an affair with this woman.

[David Sims]

Right. Because there's the earlier scene with Leo where he keeps Verna in the room with the door closed and doesn't give it up. And at that moment, right. He, he creates the fissure.

[Ari Aster]

So why does he say it? Explain it to me. I'm dumb.

[David Sims]

I think in that moment, he is considering the possibility of prioritizing his own happiness.

[Ari Aster]

Sure.

[David Sims]

I don't think he's committed to it. That was my read, watching it last night, but.

[Ari Aster]

Or is it him being like, I have to break with Leo to, like, whatever, survive or have him survive or anything like that? Like, is what, why does he reveal the affair to Leo? Or does he think Leo would be like, oh, well, actually, then I don't like her. I love you?

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's because he want. I, I think it's because he know. Has to.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ari Aster]

He needs to, like, push away.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, but, but, but he also needs. He needs there to be a story like, like, he needs it to reach Johnny.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, right. This is a real, like, I'm not an undercover agent.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. He can't just come over saying, like, yeah, we got into a fight.

[David Sims]

It's his Departed. It's his, like, look, would a guy go this far just to, Right. Take down a whole system?

[Ari Aster]

Man, the Departed's so good. When are we doing Marty? What Marty would you want? What's your favorite Marty?

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, I know Marty would I want maybe Age of Innocence, maybe Last Temptation of Christ, just because that one doesn't get talked about enough, or I would say I love Casino. I love Raging Bull. Love them all. I love them all. After Hours King of comedy. Actually, Silence, I think, is We've talked about fucking. It's so under.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Like that. That's one of the greatest films ever made, and it doesn't get talked about.

[David Sims]

It's an astonishing movie. It does feel like it's weirdly been.

[Ari Aster]

It needs, like, another 10 years for everyone to sort of, whatever, settle down and be like, right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I would say Silence, for me, is, is his best film this century.

[Ari Aster]

And you like basically all the films you made this century?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah. I, I, I love them all. I love Shutter Island.

[Ari Aster]

I love Shutter Island.

[Griffin Newman]

It's amazing.

[Ari Aster]

That's a movie about.

[Griffin Newman]

Irishman is incredible, too. Irishman is just great, great, great.

[David Sims]

There's that interview he did a couple years ago where he's, like, in Retrospect, I regret making Shutter island just because I'm getting older and who knows how many films I have left.

[Ari Aster]

Sure.

[David Sims]

It is such a.

[Ari Aster]

Like, that's the one you regret.

[David Sims]

You were operating at such a high level that you're like, shutter island was maybe kind of a toss off. I could have done something better with my time.

[Ari Aster]

So fucking good.

[David Sims]

It's incredible.

[Ari Aster]

But I really think that's a movie about friendship too, because that's Ruffalo being like, I made all this because I'm worried about you, buddy. I'm spoiling every movie. All right, so, okay, so, yes, he goes over to Casper. Casper is like, prove your, you know, make your bones by killing Bernie. And he does. He can't do it. And we've talked about all of this. I don't know why I'm going through.

[David Sims]

He looks into his heart.

[Ari Aster]

He looks into his heart and he sends Bernie on his way. And then I do feel like they must have gotten stuck on the last, because that is when suddenly a ton of untangle. You have the sort of like the Dane who is Casper's right hand man, but has a thing going on with the Mink. But Mink is obviously with Bernie now. And that's probably the chain of information that is the problem more than right. You know, I want to call it.

[David Sims]

Something in the Miller's Crossing sequence, the first one, which is that it is the most iconic part of this movie and I feel like is a thing people cite as like a level up move moment for Turturro in his career of like, how did he access this level of like, absolutely heartbreaking, pathetic vulnerability that is so uncomfortable. And then watching it last night, realizing 80% of that sequence plays out on Gabriel Byrne's face. So much of what Turturro is doing is not on camera. Most of his pleading is off camera dialogue over Gabriel Byrne weighing it. And it speaks to how effective what Turturro is doing. That in your mind, you almost correct it to being like four minutes exclusively on him.

[Ari Aster]

It's a great performance and it's a great scene because you really have. I was watching with my wife and she was like doing other stuff and I was like, by the way, they're going to the. This scene is going to be impossible to ignore. If that makes sense. Like, you can't even look at your laptop. Like, if you're just working while that scene is happening, you're like, burn. Can you just let him go? Like, can you shut him up? Yes, let him go. I don't care. I just can't listen to him anymore. Isn't this the part of the movie where they start the whole, like, shoot him in the head kind of runner joke?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, one in the head.

[Ari Aster]

One of the Henchmen is like, you.

[David Sims]

Got to do it twice.

[Ari Aster]

Gallows humor.

[David Sims]

It's.

[Ari Aster]

But it's. It's very funny, and I love that it just becomes this recurring line.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm gonna say one in the brain, specifically. Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

Polito really nails that part when he does it. When he kills.

[Griffin Newman]

Always put one in the. Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

The Dane was written for Storm Air, I've heard, which is crazy.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ari Aster]

And he's wasn't available because he was like, Peter Stormer was always, like, doing, like, the Swedish King Lear or whatever. You know what I mean? Like, he has like, this whole other life where he would come into America and be like, yeah, I'll play some psycho for you. And then in Scandinavia, he's trending the.

[David Sims]

Freeman's great in this. And Fargo ends up being, like, the greatest role you could ever write for Storm Mayor. I almost think Stormare would have been. He is so innately odd that it might have unbalanced this movie a little bit. There's something about the Dane being fairly stoic.

[Ari Aster]

Yes. The Dane's just kind of this rock.

[Griffin Newman]

He's stoic, but he speaks more than. Than Storm Air in Fargo.

[Ari Aster]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Than Grimsrud. Where. Where I think his only line is unguent.

[Ari Aster]

Unguent.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ari Aster]

Where is Pancake House?

[David Sims]

It's the inverse is like.

[Griffin Newman]

Like Freeman hungry Now you know.

[Ari Aster]

Hungry now you know.

[David Sims]

Freeman can deliver this much dialogue.

[Ari Aster]

Suppose you set up this entire car ride.

[David Sims]

Freeman can deliver this much dialogue and still feel stoic and mysterious. If Peter Stormare is standing somewhere, you're just like, what the is going on with that guy? Right.

[Ari Aster]

But there you have this, like, the most vulnerable moment Tom is in, I feel, is when he gets Polito to kill the Dane instead of him.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ari Aster]

Right. Like, it's like that's the sort of, like, shakiest part of his entire scheme is. Is Polito's the most volatile. Casper. Johnny Casper is the most volatile element here, right?

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ari Aster]

And he has to basically convince him, like, hey, no, your guy who's been with for a long time is actually the guy double crossing you, not me.

[David Sims]

It's also interesting that so many of their films are people getting in over their heads who don't understand how complicated the situation they're in is that they believe they have all the angles figured out and the movie Is constantly pulling back to reveal. Like, there are 20 things they're not considering. This is all gonna bite them in the ass.

[Ari Aster]

Because all this stuff's very simple. It's like he then handles Polito by being like, if I put him in the room with Bernie, one of them will kill each other.

[David Sims]

But this is one of, like, their only movies.

[Ari Aster]

And he's like. And I figured we. Bernie. Because he's the more desperate and that he'll have the. He'll know what's coming.

[David Sims]

Whether or not you believe that. Tom has all of this figured out from the beginning. Is one of their only movies where the person at the center is. Does have a handle on everything. He seems pretty evolving, right?

[Ari Aster]

Yeah. I feel like a minute one, you're like, this guy's smart, Right?

[David Sims]

There are other films are just. Someone immediately gets in over their head and keeps digging deeper.

[Ari Aster]

They usually make movies about idiots.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ari Aster]

Or like, you have like, Francis McDormand and Fargo or Tommy Lee Jones in no country where you're like, this person is upright. But they're not really. They're coming in and viewing what's going on.

[David Sims]

Isn't an idiot, but he does kind of understand what he's getting into.

[Ari Aster]

I think.

[David Sims]

L. People thought I was too critical of the characters in Blood simple being dumb, but it's more. It's more that they're oblivious.

[Ari Aster]

You don't think Will m. He's not an idiot. Josh Brolin in no country, he just.

[Griffin Newman]

Makes some mistakes, you know, bringing the water back out. I mean. I mean, even if he didn't do that, though, he still would have the tracking device with the.

[Ari Aster]

Right. He's no matter what.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

And also, the thing in no country is like, you could give the money back. It doesn't matter.

[Griffin Newman]

And Tommy Lee Jones there is. Is ineffectual. Like, he's.

[Ari Aster]

Or he's just like, I can't. I don't know what to do about this.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, yeah.

[Ari Aster]

He's like, I can't operate on this level. Like, this is exhausting.

[David Sims]

I think the defining feature of a Cohen idiot, though, is the confidence that they have it figured out.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Llewellyn doesn't.

[Ari Aster]

May see every Clooney character. Right? Yeah.

[David Sims]

Right. Pit and burn after reading the sort of. Like, I. I have every angle.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, everybody burn after reading everybody in Bird.

[Ari Aster]

Like, even Malkovich. Like, who thinks he's smart or whatever. Like, yeah. Yes. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

He's the one who at the end runs out of his house in a.

[Ari Aster]

Robe with a hatchet with A hatchet and chops George Clooney to death. Right?

[Griffin Newman]

No, it's. No, it's not Clooney. It's Richard Jenkins.

[Ari Aster]

Jenkins. Poor Jenkins. Jenkins. Is that classic Cohen. Like, they find him, I think, for. Is it intolerable or is it. Man who wasn't there is the first.

[Griffin Newman]

Time he works for the man who wasn't there. He plays the. The lawyer, the alcoholic lawyer.

[Ari Aster]

And I feel like they're just like, oh, we. We need to, like, just put this guy through the blender. Every. Like, they love and bring came into.

[Griffin Newman]

All of Kitteridge, which is great.

[Ari Aster]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Whoever hasn't seen Olive Kitteridge? That's listening in on this is a. That's a great. It's a miniseries.

[Ari Aster]

I watched it at the time. It was on hbo. Yeah, it's great.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Jenkins, the King.

[Ari Aster]

Love Richard Jenkins. You've never used Richard Jenkins. What's the matter with you?

[Griffin Newman]

He's busy.

[Ari Aster]

He is busy. That guy works. He's been a little. He hasn't really done much recently, but he played Jeffrey Dahmer's dad in the Dahmer thing. It's one of those things where you're like, where's Jenkins? And then you're like, ah, fuck. He was busy playing Jeffrey Dahmer's dad.

[David Sims]

He's in season 12 of a CBS sitcom called Rich.

[Griffin Newman]

He had one, like, leading role, like the Visitor, right?

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

The Tom McCarthy.

[Ari Aster]

He's great in.

[David Sims]

There was one that came out during the Pandemic. That was a Sundance movie that then went straight to Drive ins. That was him running, like, a restaurant.

[Ari Aster]

It's called the Last Shift.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

And I know that because Divine Join Randolph is in that movie. And when she won the Critic Circle Award for New York, she asked for him to introduce her. And we were like, why Richard Jenkins? She was like, we did this movie together and we love each other. And he gave the sweetest, like, most loving intro for her. For a movie rooted in a movie I've never seen, the Last Shift that.

[David Sims]

Felt like a movie that people liked at Sundance. And it was like, this is going to be one we'll talk about in the fall. And then the fall.

[Ari Aster]

Was that 2020? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Could we just quickly shout out if we're going back into the plot? I love Polito's cousins, the twins trying to get the position. It's just such a stupid, silly.

[Griffin Newman]

And the mayor. And the mayor. Tom, can't you tell him?

[David Sims]

Polito kicking the mayor out of his own office so he can sit behind the desk.

[Ari Aster]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Polito's just extraordinary in this. And it is, you know, I'll keep talking this series about Ethan's line about he thinks the defining trait of a director is tone management. And Polito is doing a different size performance than everyone else in this movie. And yet there is like a core humanity to what he's playing that stops it from being a cartoon character.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's the biggest part he ever had. I mean, even with the Coens, you know, he shows up.

[Ari Aster]

He's more of a sort of 1, 2.

[Griffin Newman]

He seems pretty silent in Barton Fink.

[David Sims]

They use him basically as a joke of misdirect in Barton Fink. To be like, you're used to that guy yelling.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But Michael Lerner comes in and right.

[David Sims]

Here'S who yells at Polito.

[Griffin Newman]

That's a great performance.

[David Sims]

Incredible.

[Griffin Newman]

I, I, he's amazing. I, I had an experience working with Michael Lerner on Bo is Afraid.

[Ari Aster]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I'll actually leave it at that. But he was, but that was very.

[Ari Aster]

Near the end of his life. I meant because he died in 2023. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. But yeah, he's, he's amazing.

[David Sims]

It felt like Lerner kind of got not the praise that Polito should have gotten of the rolling effect of the Cohen's building this type of character and the fun of watching a guy like this burst blood vessels and speak continuously.

[Ari Aster]

Aren't learners only two cone roles. Barton Fink and Serious Man. Like, is he in another Coen Brothers movie? Because him and him and Serious man is such a funny end to his collaboration where he just walks in the room and kills. I think that's it. I don't think he's in, yeah, he's not in any other pipe with the pipe he's got where they're like he's figured out. And then he just.

[David Sims]

Where he comes in with all the pages.

[Ari Aster]

One of my favorite gags. So Miller's Crossing.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

You know, a bunch of happens.

[David Sims]

Will just do these like precision turns though, within a monologue. Like the density of the language it, which is so precise and so often playing out in these long takes. And then he will have like six emotional swings within it. And it never feels like he's pushing. And there are moments where he's doing like sketch comedy esque moves of like, like sitting with his jaw hanging open in like disbelief. Like sort of like cartoonish shorthand of a visual representation of an emotion. And yet he's still making it feel like this is a real person and a person who has a Credible threat. I. He's just, like, extraordinary in this.

[Ari Aster]

I love Oleg Krupa.

[David Sims]

He's the guy, right?

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, yeah, He's. He's. He's great.

[David Sims]

Bernie's ersat's roommate, right?

[Ari Aster]

Right.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah. I don't know. Michael Jeter's in this movie.

[David Sims]

Didn't clock him. And I also didn't catch.

[Ari Aster]

No, no, no, no, no. It's Danny. A third. That's why it's Danny. A son. Okay, who is one of the cops.

[David Sims]

Got it.

[Ari Aster]

But not senior, right?

[David Sims]

No, I was looking for Jader. I don't know where he is.

[Ari Aster]

I don't either. Yeah, yeah, apparently he's, like, one of the gangsters.

[David Sims]

We just always like to do a Jeter corner.

[Ari Aster]

I like that old. The Captain.

[Griffin Newman]

The old guy.

[Ari Aster]

The police captain. The police captain. That guy's great. Yeah, that guy really gets made fun of, too. And, like, he's. He's making a good point. And, like, you know, Tom's too hard on him. Even the way Tommy has a relationship with the cops, every time they show up is a funny gag too, where he's just like, good to see you, bud, and he just, like, strolls out.

[Griffin Newman]

It's also like the rain nor wind nor snow. That's the mailman.

[Ari Aster]

So kind of.

[David Sims]

No, but there's, like, the tribalism vaguely of, like, the Irish cops are always gonna side with the Irish gangsters. It's better that they're running the crime.

[Ari Aster]

You rather that be it, Right. This film. Right. Also Right. I love this film was initially called the Big Head, which is supposedly, like, the nickname for Tom Reagan that, you know.

[David Sims]

That is a good title. Miller's Crossing is a better title for this movie. I would.

[Ari Aster]

Crossing is a great title for a painterly gangster.

[David Sims]

I would like to see. See a movie called the Big Head.

[Ari Aster]

Sure.

[David Sims]

I want that to exist.

[Ari Aster]

Ari, is there anything in this movie we haven't touched on that you want to talk about before? You know, I just, you know, I don't want to, like, bring us into the box office game and such before, you know, because it is so rich with little details. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know. Let me see. The last scene is a. Is like something of a nod to. To the third man.

[Ari Aster]

Yes. No.

[Griffin Newman]

Definitely yes.

[Ari Aster]

And the third man is always a great way to end the movie. Yeah. I think, like, you know, having everyone kind of take stock and be like, I guess we're not friends anymore is a great way to. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And just. Just like a long. A long forest road where somebody's walking towards you and then walks right past, which is a little different than. It's a little different here, but it's definitely evoking that.

[David Sims]

But you also have Tom tilting his hat down and then the camera kind of swooping up under him to be able to catch his eyes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And staying on. Gabriel Burn with the saddest eyes in the world.

[Ari Aster]

What's he going to do now?

[David Sims]

It is my favorite kind of just.

[Ari Aster]

Drink like 11 billion gallons of whiskey.

[David Sims]

My favorite kind of ending in movies, period, is character goes through a whole insane thing. They've made it out the other side, and then the ending is. What the do I do now? Yeah. Anytime someone pulls that card, I, it works for me. And Gabriel Byrne is like a perfect face to do that with.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And I think, I think just going back to the Third Man, I, I do feel like that a lot of their DNA is there in that film. They've talked about that film being important to them, but I, I, I mean, even just the eccentricity of the score in that film. Yeah. The zither and then the opening, the opening narration, which I believe is Carol Reed speaking. Oh, sure. Which is, you know, Graham Greene writing. The irreverence of that opening narration in the Third man just feels like. It just feels important for them.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And, and the friction of these elements shouldn't be put together. This is not the normal way to tell the story. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, yes, there are a lot of filmmakers I would say are very important to them. Like, like Lubitsch and Billy Wilder and Preston Sturgis, obviously.

[Ari Aster]

They cannot shake Preston Sturgis.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. No.

[Ari Aster]

Nor should they.

[Griffin Newman]

No. And then, and then the Third man, especially, just feels important.

[Ari Aster]

Carol Reed's so weird to me because he's made a bunch of great movies. He also won Best Picture for Oliver, which is not a film.

[David Sims]

Not his best.

[Ari Aster]

I was a kid.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ari Aster]

But I doubt one of his better movies.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's say three especially great movies like.

[Ari Aster]

Third man, the Fallen Idol, and what's the Other One?

[Griffin Newman]

And Odd Man Out.

[Ari Aster]

Right. Those are. And like. Yeah. And yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And they're all Graham Green.

[Ari Aster]

Right. And the Third man is correctly venerated, but I feel like he is not talked about out in the sort of whatever great directors of his era.

[Griffin Newman]

The Fallen Idol might be my favorite.

[Ari Aster]

Fallen Idol's so good. One of the best kid performances ever.

[David Sims]

I just remember seeing Third man for the first time after hearing people talk about it so long and that so much. The framework was also an. Obviously one of the Greatest film scores of all time. And I'm seeing these noir images and Orson Welles and the hat and the tunnel and all this stuff, and in my head I'm like, oh, I can imagine what the score is. And then the movie starts, as you said, with this, like, jaunty narration and the zither music and that immediate feeling of. Of this is not what I think the tone of this movie is supposed to be. How is that going to get to that point? Is the kind of thing that it feels like animates the Cohens.

[Griffin Newman]

Also, Joseph Cotton's kind of, like, bumbling buffoon, like, the audience surrogate. Being something of a. Of a buffoon is important for them as well.

[Ari Aster]

Joseph Cotton, the John Goodman of his day. You know why?

[David Sims]

Why?

[Ari Aster]

Never got an Oscar nomination. Oh, and he's like one of those guys where you're like, he's in, like, half of, you know. To 12 masterpieces.

[David Sims]

John Goodman of his day. Yeah. No, fair enough. To the. To the hat point.

[Ari Aster]

I'm glad that I got you with that one.

[David Sims]

Just. Yeah, no, it was good. I was trying to do the math on. Did he ever play Roseanne Bar's husband?

[Ari Aster]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Did he live long enough?

[Ari Aster]

His last movie is Heaven's Gate. I think, like, he doesn't live.

[David Sims]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just because you invoked Lubich. There's the famous Lubich anecdote that I don't think ever made it into a movie is always retold as, like, a great example of the Lubitz touch. But I think was in some development session where they were had, like, four pages of dialogue of a couple fighting to show that the love had gone out of their marriage. An older couple. And then he said, scrap all of that. They're in an elevator. He's wearing a hat. A younger woman walks onto the elevator, and he takes off his hat.

[Ari Aster]

Oh, wow.

[David Sims]

And you're like, it's one of the greatest, like, show, don't tell examples of a thing that maybe never made it to screen. But I kept thinking that while watching the movie last night. And the importance of the hat of just, like, it's not that the hat represents something. It's that the hat can be a communicator. Definitely what people put on the hat is the point.

[Ari Aster]

And if you get your hat knocked off, you're vulnerable.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Ari Aster]

Feel vulnerable, you're exposed.

[David Sims]

The movie kind of uses the hat in a similar trope of, like. Right. That. That's when you've lost your status.

[Ari Aster]

Do you think Tom's good At sex. I think he's really bad at it.

[David Sims]

You think he's really bad at it?

[Ari Aster]

It. Yeah.

[David Sims]

He's not good at talking. I think he has to be good at bad communicator. I think he has to be good at sex. Otherwise, no.

[Ari Aster]

He cries for one hour after he has sex.

[David Sims]

I think during, but he lasts the full hour, so you gotta weigh that.

[Ari Aster]

Sorry for throwing that out late. Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Tom's a choker.

[Ari Aster]

There's just so much buried in that man. There's so much rage and feeling.

[David Sims]

He's a clean line. Oh, yeah. What you see is what you get with tomorrow.

[Ari Aster]

Like, imagine watching a baseball game with that guy. You feel like, get me away from this person.

[David Sims]

Imagine his, like, Manosphere podcast. He just sits there and lets the other person talk.

[Griffin Newman]

He's like.

[David Sims]

That's his energy in.

[Griffin Newman]

Tom likes to watch. I think, actually.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah, you're right. You're right. And he actually.

[David Sims]

He's kind of got the cuck chair in his apartment.

[Ari Aster]

He does have a. Yeah, a cuck chair.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

Glad we said chair on this episode.

[David Sims]

Hey. It's part of the. The legacy of our show, as I've.

[Ari Aster]

Said about the hotel chair.

[David Sims]

Chair.

[Ari Aster]

Where else is the chair supposed to point? Hotel rooms just have a bed in them.

[David Sims]

Correct?

[Ari Aster]

You know, everyone makes fun. You know what I'm talking about, Ari?

[David Sims]

Do you know what I'm talking about? The one plus, you go to a.

[Ari Aster]

Hotel room, there's always a chair pointed at the bed. And it's like, joke on the Internet has become like, that's the cuck chair. We gotta paint. Face it to the wall. Like, I mean, like, it's just. It's not a big room.

[Griffin Newman]

Some hotels have, like, a sibian in the bathroom.

[David Sims]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Griffin Newman]

That's important.

[David Sims]

Yeah. The good ones.

[Ari Aster]

We're gonna play the box office game, Ari. If you don't know, we're gonna. Girlfriend is gonna try and guess the films that were the top five at the box office when Miller's Crossing came out, which was October 5, 1990. So when does Goodfellas come out? Because Goodfellas is early in the year, isn't it?

[David Sims]

Isn't Goodfellas like March or April?

[Ari Aster]

It was September. I should know also that this very. Opened the New York Film Festival this year.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Ari Aster]

And, you know, generally, I think was. Was treated with, you know, a lot of falter all.

[David Sims]

So was Goodfellas in the top five?

[Ari Aster]

No. Yes. It's number five. It's number five at the box office.

[Griffin Newman]

Where does Miller Crossing Over Dances with Wolves, maybe. That's very summer.

[David Sims]

Dances with Wolves comes out December.

[Ari Aster]

Dances with Wolves is not on this list. Okay, so, okay. Number one at the box office. Griffin. It's new this week. It's an action film. Stars an action star. A new action star.

[Griffin Newman]

Die Hard.

[Ari Aster]

Not Die Hard.

[David Sims]

Is it Seagal?

[Ari Aster]

It is Steven Seagal. And here's the challenge. Name his third movie movie.

[David Sims]

It came up in Box Office Game, the website the other day and it completely foiled me. It's the one with Kelly LeBrock. I think it is the one with Kelly.

[Ari Aster]

It is not.

[David Sims]

It's not above the law.

[Ari Aster]

It is not above the law. Which is his first film.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ari Aster]

It's very good.

[David Sims]

And it's not the one with Kelly Brock.

[Ari Aster]

Which is his second film, which is called Hard to Kill.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Ari Aster]

Which is a great title.

[David Sims]

This movie is called Tell Me how many Words it has in the three.

[Ari Aster]

He was a three word title guy.

[David Sims]

Is it blank to blank?

[Ari Aster]

No, it's blank for blank.

[Griffin Newman]

Out for justice.

[David Sims]

There we go.

[Ari Aster]

That's a great guess. Oh, it's wrong. That's his fourth movie.

[David Sims]

It's not out for Justice.

[Ari Aster]

For justice is the next year. And that's the one with Jerry Orbach. Yeah. Good movie. Or maybe it's bad. I can't remember.

[David Sims]

Is it Cars for Kids?

[Ari Aster]

It is directed by Dwight Little, who made, you know, the fourth Halloween movie and murdered 1600. A lot of glorious trash. H. Little. Well, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You're a rose for Emily.

[Ari Aster]

And I've never. I've never seen this movie because I feel like I would remember the movie where Keith David is the second lead. He's probably having fun.

[David Sims]

It's called Marked. Marked for Dead.

[Ari Aster]

Marked for Death is the name of the film.

[David Sims]

There we go.

[Ari Aster]

There you go. I almost got there. Number two. The box office Griffin is a re release of a Disney film. An old classic.

[David Sims]

It's an old.

[Ari Aster]

Yep.

[David Sims]

Give me the decade of its original release. 40 forties. Early.

[Ari Aster]

Early, early forties.

[David Sims]

Early forties. So it's not.

[Ari Aster]

Okay.

[David Sims]

So it's not white. It's not Bambi.

[Ari Aster]

Nope.

[David Sims]

Is it a princess movie?

[Ari Aster]

Nope.

[David Sims]

No. It's an animal movie.

[Ari Aster]

Nope. It's a weird one.

[David Sims]

It's a weird one. It's not. It's not an animal. It's not a princess. It's a weird one. It's not Fantasia.

[Ari Aster]

It sure is. Fantasia.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Ari Aster]

Yep. Fantasia. Do you like Fantasia?

[David Sims]

He does have animals in it.

[Griffin Newman]

I love Fantasia.

[Ari Aster]

Do you like Steven Seagal? I forgot to ask.

[Griffin Newman]

Do I like Steven Seagal?

[David Sims]

Not his work. You like his person?

[Griffin Newman]

I like him as a person. I think he's. I think he's a good guy.

[David Sims]

His values, his physical appearance.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I mean. No, no, I don't. I don't. Let's just. Let's face it. Fantasia.

[David Sims]

I do love Fantasia's great.

[Griffin Newman]

Fantasia's amazing.

[Ari Aster]

Number three is a psychological horror film starring one of your favorite act.

[David Sims]

Is it Pacific Heights?

[Ari Aster]

Yes. Michael Keaton is the scary guy.

[David Sims]

Movie I watched the first time last year, like quite a bit. John.

[Ari Aster]

That's right.

[David Sims]

Got a stack supporting cast. Everyone in that is like a five star actor.

[Ari Aster]

Mako.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ari Aster]

Lori Metcalf. Yep. Carl Lumbley. Tippy Hedren's in this?

[David Sims]

Yeah, everyone's in it.

[Ari Aster]

You seen this movie? What's this? Pacific Heights?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I've seen Pacific Heights.

[David Sims]

It's fun.

[Griffin Newman]

Pacific Heights is great.

[Ari Aster]

Number five is Goodfellas. Number four is another of the big hits of the 1990s of the year 1990. 90. Giant smash hit. One two Oscars.

[David Sims]

It won two Oscars.

[Ari Aster]

Yep.

[David Sims]

Is it City Slickers? No.

[Griffin Newman]

Come on now, give me another Romance.

[David Sims]

It's a romance that won two Oscars. Major categories.

[Ari Aster]

Yep.

[David Sims]

It's Roommate. It's not Pretty Woman.

[Ari Aster]

Nope. Weepy.

[David Sims]

A weepy romance.

[Ari Aster]

Sad romance.

[David Sims]

Is it Ghost?

[Ari Aster]

It's Ghost. It's ghost.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh yeah, of course, Ghost. So Ghost must have been out for a while then.

[Ari Aster]

That was a July film because I.

[Griffin Newman]

Know that that was crushing. That was the movie of that year.

[Ari Aster]

Absolutely.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

All right, you've also Office Postcard to the Head from the Edge. Just been out for about a month. Flatliners. Joel Schmucker's flatliners. You've got narrow margin.

[David Sims]

Is that a JCVD Peter Himes film with Gene Hackman.

[Griffin Newman]

Narrow margin is, is. Is. Is actually pretty fun.

[David Sims]

What is that? Is that like a remake?

[Griffin Newman]

Hackman thriller.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Ari Aster]

Gene Hackman and Anne Archer.

[David Sims]

What is. Is he a lawyer? Is he a cop?

[Ari Aster]

He's an LA deputy district attorney trying to keep a murder witness safe.

[David Sims]

I like the sound of that. And I'm sure he's very even keeled.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah. Right. You've got bad but fun. Right. Ninth you've got opening is a neon war called. Oh, the Michael Cimino movie. Desperate hours. Right. Like late Chimino with Anthony Hopkins and a normal Mickey Rourke. Huge bomb. And then funny about love, the late.

[David Sims]

Gene Wilder movie directed by Leonard Nimoy. Yeah, yeah. That's a weird. It's Gene Hackman. Is the poster him with a clock on his Head.

[Ari Aster]

Yes, that's right.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ari Aster]

Because the biological clock is ticking or something.

[David Sims]

Yes. I think he's an old dad is the premise of the movie. Sure. You said that one.

[Griffin Newman]

I haven't seen Funny About Love.

[David Sims]

No, I feel like that's one where the people who worked on it were like. Yeah, he just seemed really sad, like he didn't want to be in a comedy. I think he did it right after Gilda died, maybe.

[Ari Aster]

All right, we're done crossing open. You didn't say this, like, number 50. It's, like, you know, in one screen or whatever. Whatever.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Ari Aster]

Yeah. It made, like, $4 million. It was.

[David Sims]

Unfortunately, got zero Oscar nominations, which is crazy.

[Griffin Newman]

But forever young.

[Ari Aster]

It is forever young, but it is. They're a few years off from, like, their real Oscar breakthrough.

[David Sims]

It is a forever movie, though. And Barton Fink will get two. Yeah, but then Fargo is the breakthrough. Ari. Thank you.

[Ari Aster]

All right, you have to catch a plane. You got to go.

[Griffin Newman]

Thanks for having me. I got to go.

[David Sims]

Eddington. One of the best movies of the year. Ben and I saw it and had a great time. And by a great time, I mean we were thrilled at the level of Panic Attack we were having.

[Ari Aster]

Perfect.

[David Sims]

I recommend to everybody, I think it's. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Especially in the theater, funny and exciting.

[Ari Aster]

Locked in with that movie. And I mean that, like, as the highest compliment.

[David Sims]

Absolutely, yes. And. And thank you for being here and thank you for doing this, and I wish you a great, long sleep as this press tour comes to a close.

[Griffin Newman]

Thanks for having me. This is fun.

[Ari Aster]

Can you take it easy? You take it easy. You're good at that, right?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know.

[David Sims]

You're kind of a map.

[Ari Aster]

Playing some video games. You love video games.

[Griffin Newman]

Sorry, I don't play video games.

[David Sims]

Donkey Kong Bonanza. Pauline is back. Does that move the needle for you?

[Ari Aster]

All right, all right, all right. Let's get Ari out of here.

[Griffin Newman]

Might just go to that hotel with the. With the Sabian.

[David Sims]

And that's your plug as well, right? Yeah, in multiple ways. Thank you for being here. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. Tune in next week for Barton Fink, with our friend Chris Weitz returning to the show.

[Ari Aster]

That's right.

[David Sims]

And as always, better stop giving me the fucking hi hat. David.

[Ari Aster]

Blank Check with Griffin. And David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas.

[David Sims]

And our Associate producer is AJ McKeon.

[Ari Aster]

This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithee. Research by JJ Burch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery and the Great American Novel with additional music by Alex Mitchell, artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon Blank Check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at blankcheckpod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.