No Country for Old Men with Leslye Headland

Summary

Blank Check with Griffin & David — "No Country for Old Men" with Leslye Headland

Release Date: September 28, 2025
Hosts: Griffin Newman, David Sims
Guest: Leslye Headland

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Episode Overview

In this deep dive episode, Griffin, David, and guest Leslye Headland dissect the Coen Brothers’ "No Country for Old Men," the Oscar-winning 2007 adaptation of Cormac McCarthy’s novel. They explore how the Coens’ signature style collides with McCarthy’s sparse, philosophical storytelling, debate what makes the film a masterpiece, and examine its legacy—both within the Coens’ oeuvre and 21st century film culture at large. The conversation covers the film's legendary performances, subversive narrative decisions, sound design, and its place in the movie landscape of 2007, while constantly interrogating what distinguishes "No Country" from other thrillers and what its prickly nihilism means for viewers and filmmakers alike.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

The Legendary Gas Station Scene & Performance Dynamics

[00:40–07:16]

• The hosts immediately zero in on the famous gas station coin toss scene, calling it the film’s essence.
• Griffin: “I could lock myself in a room and watch that scene on an endless loop every day for the rest of my life. I would be thrilled.” [01:23]
• Leslye Headland discusses the overlooked brilliance of Gene Jones’ performance as the terrified proprietor:
  “Javier did an interview where he said, you know, that scene is really great. Because of Gene. … He's playing the fear and the nervousness and the terror.” [05:07]
• The tension is not conventionally released; even when Anton leaves, nothing feels "solved."
• The coin toss isn’t a “fun” affectation—Chigurh derives no joy, underlining his role as something uncanny: “He’s not Two-Face, he’s not getting any joy from this … he’s just pure evil.” [07:04, 07:09]
• Discussion of the film’s script as an extraordinarily faithful adaptation of McCarthy (“cut and paste”), with essential moments translated visually rather than explained in dialogue.

The Coens' Craft—Construction, Tone, and Adaptation

[09:37–12:48, 59:22–67:42]

• Griffin recalls seeing "No Country" multiple times in theaters, thinking it was “the best constructed movie I have ever seen.” [10:20]
• While the hosts don’t think it’s necessarily the Coens’ absolute best, they consider it perhaps their best-made film—a "blueprint" for lean, tight genre filmmaking.
• David notes how difficult Cormac McCarthy is to adapt visually, praising the Coens for capturing his atmosphere and philosophical weight without over-explaining.
• Leslye observes that, because the script so closely mirrors McCarthy’s book, “it shows you what phenomenal filmmakers they [the Coens] are.” [61:21]
• They praise the minimization of dialogue, and the way the Coens define character through action, allowing Roger Deakins’ cinematography and the rhythm of editing to do the storytelling heavy lifting.
• Conversation on Deakins' craft touches on his ability to shoot both faces and inanimate objects with tension, dread, and beauty. His Oscar loss for this film (to "There Will Be Blood") is decried.

Subversion of Genre & Structure

[26:24–29:56, 157:43–159:41]

• The hosts unpack how the film wrong-foots the audience, building toward expected showdowns between protagonist Llewelyn Moss, antagonist Anton Chigurh, and Sheriff Ed Tom Bell – only to subvert those conventions.
• They discuss the off-screen death of Moss, which leaves audiences disoriented (“there must be a misunderstanding ... there's no way the movie has just ... and it's got 30 minutes left to go” [27:03]), and the lack of catharsis that makes the film feel both realistic and disturbing.
• David: “It’s a movie that seems to promise a showdown and the showdown never really arrives.” [26:48]
• Chigurh’s near-supernatural randomness is debated. Leslye: “There has been this online debatey idea that Chigurh is, you know, Satan … the personification of [Death]." [134:05]
• The haunting, abrupt ending sparks conversation about audience reaction—many felt adrift or unsettled by Bell’s monologue and the lack of resolution.

Themes: Nihilism, Fate, and American Anxiety

[22:47–25:13, 133:32–166:47]

• The hosts note recurring motifs in the Coens’ work (compared to "Fargo" and "The Big Lebowski"), focusing on the idea of “delving into darkness” and “touching the membrane of absolute darkness.”
• Chigurh as a vessel of fate (or chaos)—his coin toss is not, the hosts note, meant to absolve responsibility (“You say it's the coin, but it is definitely not the coin. It is you, my friend.” [08:05])
• The hosts analyze Moss’s “save-the-cat” moment—his doomed choice is presented as a dead-end for morality in a chaotic universe.
• Leslye: “The rule of you bring water to a dying man—what was the use of that after everything that comes after it?” [24:52]
• Tommy Lee Jones’ character represents old values in a fading America (“once people stop saying 'ma'am' and 'sir,' it was all slipping away … polite civility is eroding” [04:09–04:33])
• The cultural malaise of 2007 is foregrounded—pointing to the end of the Bush administration, coming financial crisis, and American uncertainty as resonant with the film’s atmosphere.

Oscars and 2007 Film Landscape

[30:19–38:48, 168:41–170:12]

• David marvels at the “unanimity” of critical praise, calling it the most well-reviewed film he’s ever seen.
• The hosts discuss its famous Oscar face-off with “There Will Be Blood,” noting how both films embody “America gone mad” but with different tones—“No Country” the cleaner, more populist, but deliberately unsatisfying pick.
• Leslye: “I wonder if [the problem with] There Will Be Blood is that it’s so arm’s length … you’re just watching them, you’re not [inside].” [38:28]
• 2007’s heavy-hitter movie slate is surveyed, observing how "No Country" stood out for its genre framework despite nihilistic content.

The Cast and Characters

[75:34–113:13]

• Detailed discussion of casting:
  • Josh Brolin’s late-career breakout, with context on how he almost missed the role. The hosts praise his “smarter than usual Coens idiot” performance.
  • Tommy Lee Jones as the "Route 1" choice for Sheriff Bell, but delivering a “magically emotional” performance stripped of usual bravado.
  • Javier Bardem’s intimidating but weirdly ambiguous Anton Chigurh. They recall his initial confusion at being cast (“I told them, I don't like violence and I don't drive … I have no idea what's happening” [87:31]), and how the unearthly styling (haircut, pale makeup) made him a pop culture icon, straddling lines between terrifying, silly, and alluring.
  • The coin toss scene’s supporting actor, Gene Jones, is celebrated for his subtle, fear-capturing turn.
  • Kelly Macdonald praised for her remarkable Southern accent and the tenderness she brings to Carla Jean.
  • Woody Harrelson’s “Janet Leigh”–style cameo and how it presaged his late-2000s career resurgence.
  • Steven Root, Beth Grant, and Garrett Dillahunt’s brief but memorable roles are also noted.

Production, Adaptation, and Behind-the-Scenes

[45:43–76:42]

• Production history:
  • McCarthy began as a screenplay (1980s), later reworked it as a novel (“that’s why that novel is so goddamn readable” [46:41]).
  • Scott Rudin acquired rights, orchestrated the Coens’ adaptation—David jokes about Rudin’s Oscar-hungry strategy.
  • The Coens’ approach: montage of action over psychology, stripping dialogue from the script, relying on visual storytelling.
  • Double studio co-production “between eras of two different tyrants” (Miramax and Paramount Vantage).
  • Deakins and Skip Lievsay’s technical brilliance—location shooting in Texas/New Mexico, use of silence and ambient sound.
  • Carter Burwell, a longtime Coen composer, wrote minimal music (“movie has no score until the end credits" [128:32]); the tension is “the sound.”

Recurring Coens Themes & Philosophy

[161:22–166:46]

• Griffin: The film’s spare nihilism is “kind of their retort” to critics who called earlier Coens films cynical—“are they just nihilists? Does none of this matter to them?”
• Comparison to “Fargo”—where Marge is a force of good, and the ending feels like justice; in “No Country,” Bell is exhausted and powerless.
• The final scene with Bell’s vulnerable dream monologue—presents loss, resignation, and old age with extraordinary subtlety.
• Leslye: “It did leave me like, you know, Mulholland Drive, Zodiac, where I was like, wow.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the coin toss scene:
  Griffin [01:23]: “I could lock myself in a room and watch that scene on an endless loop every day for the rest of my life. I would be thrilled.”

• On Bardem’s character:
  Leslye [07:05]: “He’s not getting any joy from [it]… he’s just pure evil.”
  David [08:05]: “You’re saying it’s the coin, but it is definitely not the coin. It is you, my friend.”

• On Coen craft:
  Leslye [61:21]: “It shows you what phenomenal filmmakers they are … a masterpiece has to have something personal about it. What this movie does … is show you they can shoot a movie better than anyone else."

• On Llewelyn’s “fatal” kindness:
  Leslye [24:52]: "The rule of you bring water to a dying man—what was the use of that after everything that comes after it?"

• On the 2007 movie context:
  David [31:56]: “I have never seen a film be as well received as this film.”

• On the ending’s emotional impact:
  Griffin [166:38]: “In the final shot, [TLJ’s] face to me is so heartbreaking where he looks so worried at how she is going to respond and what she thinks about what he just said.”

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Key Timestamps

• [01:00–07:16] — Gas station scene deep dive: tension, acting, the moral universe.
• [09:37–12:48] — Griffin’s film school obsession; introducing the film’s legacy.
• [22:47–25:13] — Llewelyn’s foiled morality; the movie’s bleakness.
• [26:24–29:56] — Non-traditional thriller structure, subverting genre.
• [30:19–38:48] — Oscar race, 2007 film ecosystem, and the film’s critical reception.
• [45:43–47:51] — Adaptation background: McCarthy, Rudin, and the Coens.
• [59:22–67:42] — Visual storytelling, Deakins, editing, and “hidden” craft.
• [75:34–113:13] — Full cast rundown: Brolin, Bardem, Macdonald, Harrelson, etc.
• [128:32–129:49] — Importance of sound, use of silence instead of score.
• [133:32–134:39, 161:22–166:47] — Chigurh’s (super)natural ambiguity, the ending, and existential meaning.

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Tone & Atmosphere

The conversation, as with most Blank Check episodes, is relaxed but passionate, veering between joke-laden cinephile banter and moments of heady analysis. Leslye’s contributions add a personal and philosophical dimension, and the hosts constantly circle back to the question of what, exactly, makes "No Country for Old Men" electrifying and unsettling for even the most hardened moviegoer.

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For the Uninitiated

If you haven’t seen the film or read the book, this episode is like a comprehensive seminar on the value of ambiguity, on- and off-screen violence, and the way cinematic craft can amplify or blur a story's philosophical undertones. You’ll come away understanding why "No Country for Old Men" still inspires awed, sometimes unsettled, admiration among filmmakers and critics alike, and why its shadow looms so large over 21st century cinema.

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Final Thoughts

“I just think there was something about being like, a guy finds a bag of money that he shouldn’t have, and someone’s chasing him. … There’s a framework of it that is so recognizable.”
— Griffin [39:55]

“It's a masterpiece because ... it did leave me like, you know, Mulholland Drive, Zodiac, where I was like, wow.”
— Leslye [163:09]

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Recommended if you love:

• Subversive genre cinema
• In-depth breakdowns of craft and adaptation
• Film industry and Oscar lore
• Philosophical musings on fate, evil, and the American psyche

Transcript

[Griffin Newman]

Blank check with Griffin and David. Blank check with Griffin and David. Don't know what to say or to expect.

[David Sims]

All you need to know is that.

[Griffin Newman]

The name of the shadow is Blackjack. What's the most you've ever lost in a podcast?

[David Sims]

I don't know. Four hours or so.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm teeing you up on that one.

[David Sims]

Was that Count Dracula?

[Griffin Newman]

What is the most you've ever lost in a podcast? Blah, blah, blah.

[David Sims]

How do you do him? Remember, that was the. That was the trailer. So much of him. Friend.

[Griffin Newman]

We. We are the two friendos. The two friendos.

[David Sims]

All right, warm me up. Warm me up.

[Griffin Newman]

There we go.

[David Sims]

Come on, Chris. Griff's moving the skill around.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. That. That scene is David slapping himself in the face.

[David Sims]

I'm every scene of. Not just that scene. Every scene of Anton Chigurh talking to a random Texan who basically starts the conversation with nice weather we're having and ends with, am I looking into the face of Satan?

[Griffin Newman]

I agree with you.

[David Sims]

He's so good.

[Griffin Newman]

Every one of those scenes is cracking. Yes, but the convenience store is mega crack.

[David Sims]

Of course. That's the piece.

[Griffin Newman]

I could lock myself in a room and watch that scene on an endless loop every day for the rest of my life. I would be thrilled.

[Leslie]

Oh, really?

[Griffin Newman]

I find that scene to be the most activating thing in the world.

[Leslie]

Well, why? Why?

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, this is what we're here to dissect, Perhaps. It feels like the perfect distillation of what this movie is doing. So much of it is his performance. The guy whose name I want to call out right off the bat.

[Leslie]

Gene. My wife did a play with him.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he's kind of what, Jones. And his character name is gas station proprietor. Hell, yes.

[David Sims]

And it's his first film credit. That's why I've done a couple TV shows.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

It's his first film.

[Griffin Newman]

A lot of theater, and then. Yes, he. He has kept working. He was the lead of the Sacraments, right?

[David Sims]

Yes. Which I think he actually got like a. Like a, you know, a golden chainsaw.

[Griffin Newman]

He probably got that chainsaw.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I never saw that one. That's the Ti west movie with Joe Swanberg.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Sounds normal.

[Leslie]

And it's a. Wow. Joe Swanberg. Wait, what did she say?

[David Sims]

I said, sounds normal.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. The Anton Chigurh. The Mumble. This movie. I feel like the magic of the sugar performance. Right.

[David Sims]

He's played by Javier Bardem in this film.

[Griffin Newman]

Are you sure about that? That doesn't sound right.

[David Sims]

Absolutely. The Spanish actor.

[Griffin Newman]

I feel like I would have known.

[David Sims]

Javier Bardemini won an Academy Award.

[Griffin Newman]

He did win an Academy Award for this. Yes. The magic of that characterization. And as you said, every one of those scenes where he's face to face with someone who's just greeting him with gentle charm, like a human.

[David Sims]

A human interaction every single time, like, how's it going? Like, what's the weather?

[Griffin Newman]

Like, Pleasantries.

[David Sims]

Where are you going tonight? You know, like, how's the day been so far, essentially?

[Griffin Newman]

And then he just goes, de.

[David Sims]

I gotta say, though, I kind of relate to not wanting to have small talk. It's like a real.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you think that's the driving force? I think the battery of this film is just this guy being like, I'm not that pleasant.

[David Sims]

I'm not. Yeah. I haven't been to the south that much. But I do think if you hate small talk, you probably shouldn't go there because I feel like that is part of the social contract.

[Griffin Newman]

Stay in the big mean cities.

[Leslie]

Oh, yeah, right, right.

[David Sims]

I feel like there's more chit chat.

[Griffin Newman]

Aren't you.

[David Sims]

Don't you think so?

[Leslie]

I. I don't know. I never. Texas, because of the thin blue line. I'm just not going.

[David Sims]

But you're worried that you'll get thin blue lines.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You'll, like, go to a convenience and then like, you're fucking doom.

[Leslie]

That movie. I did it. I was like, I'm never going to.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like the SNL Jumanji sketch.

[David Sims]

I'm not saying it's, like, overbearing. I think it's just like, there's a little bit more.

[Leslie]

Yeah. You know how y'. All. Yeah, it's also how y'.

[Griffin Newman]

All. It's also the thing that Tommy Lee Jones says.

[Leslie]

That's not a read, by the way. That's not a read.

[Griffin Newman]

There's the scene with Tommy Lee Jones where he's talking to the older cop and they're comparing notes and he's like these kids with the bones in their noses and all this sort of green hair. Right. And Tommy Lee Jones is just like, the second people stop saying, like, like, ma' am and sir.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

It was all slipping away. Right. And most of the people that Chigurh is dealing with are older. Right. And this feeling of, like, There is a sense of, like, polite civility.

[Leslie]

Yes, yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And a sort of, like, attempt to engage with all people with a good face that is perhaps like, eroding in culture. I think the Jean scene is the longest one. It is the most sustained. It is such a perfect, like, kind of like Rubber band pulled to its absolute breaking point.

[Leslie]

Absolutely.

[Griffin Newman]

And then the bizarreness of, rather than letting it snap, slowly putting it back into position, you know, the lack of release of tension in that scene in either direction is so bizarre. But I also think he plays the fear of it so well.

[Leslie]

Well, Javier did a interview where he said, you know, that scene is really great. Because of Jean.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

You know, he said, I'm just saying it. And he's playing the fear and the nervousness and the terror.

[Griffin Newman]

He's an incredible listener. He's not overplaying it. He still wants to be. I don't want to say gentlemanly.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But he's trying to treat this man with kindness with every answer, as his fear is increasing.

[Leslie]

Yes. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But he won't give that up.

[David Sims]

He's not gonna be like, what's your fucking.

[Griffin Newman]

Get the fuck out of here.

[David Sims]

It is also. He's starting to engage with him. Yeah. It's very funny that he keeps being like, you married into this? And he's, like, kind of blank, like.

[Griffin Newman]

Not getting chokes on the sunflower seeds at the notion that he inherited a thing from his wife's dad. And Jean doesn't respond with any defensiveness. He doesn't do, like a. Well, well, well.

[Leslie]

No. He's like, yeah, if you want to put it that way.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. He goes. And there is no way to put it. And even just down to. I think it's the final shot of the scene of Chigurh putting the sunflower seed bag.

[David Sims]

I love that shot.

[Griffin Newman]

On the crumpled up.

[David Sims]

And then it slowly uncrumples, expands.

[Leslie]

Yeah, it's the. Because it's the. The tension and then, you know, of just like, we are so tense. And actually, oddly, the release of that is, like, why you remember it. Because you're hoping for that. Like, you're hoping that that's gonna.

[Griffin Newman]

But also, much like the bag, you release it and it's still just like a crumpled mess. Right. You don't go like, oh, my God, you never see Gene again.

[Leslie]

Nope. Bye, Gene.

[Griffin Newman]

You're relieved Gene didn't die. But you're also like, nothing has been solved here.

[Leslie]

No, not at all.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's, in fact, almost scarier where you're like, this is so completely random and meaningless for him. Yeah, right.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That he throws the coin toss into it. And it doesn't feel like an element of, like, perverse fun. It's not like he's a fudgeing James Bond villain with a gimmick of the coin. He's not two Face, right?

[Leslie]

No, no.

[David Sims]

Two Face.

[Leslie]

No, no.

[Griffin Newman]

He's not getting any joy from.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

The idea of staking it all on that. It just feels like this guy, right? He's just. He's pure evil.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Or this is what we need to break, too.

[David Sims]

Face to toothpaste. Toothpaste is a new villain I'm pitching, which is a guy who a. Yeah, keep going.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Now with two Face. Not to get too deep into comic book talk, right? But it's like his, His. He's so traumatized by what happened, he cannot handle making any decision without flipping.

[Griffin Newman]

A kid fate to decide which side of his trauma response.

[David Sims]

But I think Anton Chigurh is doing a little bit of that where he's like, it's not all me. That. No, this is. This is faded or not faded. And like, I am merely an instrument of something I don't understand. And that's why it's so important that Kelly McDonald's still stayed at home.

[Leslie]

Right. It's interesting that you say.

[David Sims]

You're saying it's the coin, but it is definitely not the coin.

[Leslie]

Yeah, you.

[David Sims]

It is you, my friend.

[Leslie]

It's interesting that you say instrument. Cause so in the book, this is essentially word for word. It's essentially word for word, this scene, including putting down the rapper.

[Griffin Newman]

It is funny that they won a screenplay Oscar for this because they have been so open about the fact where.

[Leslie]

It'S just a cut and paste, right?

[Griffin Newman]

There's a line where they were like.

[David Sims]

One of us holds the book flat.

[Leslie]

And the other one and the other one ties.

[Griffin Newman]

Then they talk about how much they consolidated things.

[David Sims]

As a big fan of this book, they did a great job adapting.

[Leslie]

They definitely. No, they definitely.

[Griffin Newman]

But you're right that the dialogue.

[Leslie]

The dialogue is the same, you know, I wouldn't say cut and pests because there are many things. One of the things they didn't include, and you don't need to because of the visuals, is anything can be an instrument. Chigurh said small things, things you wouldn't even notice. They pass from hand to hand. People don't pay attention. And then one day there's an accounting. And after that, nothing is the same. Well, you say it's just a coin, for instance. Nothing special there. What could that be an instrument of? You see the problem? To separate the act from the thing, as if the parts of some moment in history might be interchangeable with the parts of some other moment. How could that be? Well, it's just a coin. Yes, that's true. Is it?

[Griffin Newman]

So that's I mean, beautiful writing, but also what a great underlining of the whole thing. And the whole thing. And also that the value of this movie is, as you just said, they don't need that because they're able to convey that through repeated.

[Leslie]

Yes. To the visuals. Yeah. And the performance.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. This movie came out in the very brief tenure in which I was attending film school before I dropped out and ruined my entire life. Or fixed it.

[David Sims]

Unclear right now.

[Griffin Newman]

Jury's still out.

[Leslie]

You're doing very well.

[Griffin Newman]

Jury's still out.

[David Sims]

Film school. Nobody ever learns anything of those.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure. But this is the period of time where I'm just like, all I need to do all day is watch movies and break them down because I'm trying to, like, figure out how to engineer these things.

[David Sims]

That's work.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And this movie comes out that fall.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Basically in the one semester. And change that. I'm in film school and I'm in Valencia, California. If there's an artsy movie, I want to see a more limited release. I need a friend with a car to drive me to the fucking landmark or the arc light or something.

[Leslie]

Yes. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But no country is mainstream enough that it goes to the Valencia Town Center. 16. Oh, wow. And plays there for months. And I saw this movie so many fucking times in the theater. Yes. And I just see it. I'd just be like, this is the blueprint. This is the best constructed movie I have ever seen. I saw it so many times. I hadn't watched it in quite a while because I was so obsessed with it in its year where I was just. And I was just like, well, this is just the pinnacle of everything. And I watch it now and I'm like, I don't know where I'm gonna rank it in their filmography. There's definitely a ton I put above this. I don't think it's their best movie, but it might be one of the best made films ever. It is just so perfectly made.

[Leslie]

Yeah, I saw it three times in the theater.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a lot.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I saw it once or twice. I've seen it several times since then. It's a movie I admire. It's a book I love, and it's an author I love. I do love Cormac McCarthy. Perhaps it's a little fucking, you know, boring of me.

[Leslie]

Why would it be boring?

[David Sims]

I don't know why I feel like so many 20something boys have a Cormac McCarthy face. Right.

[Leslie]

Maybe not.

[David Sims]

Maybe. Maybe I'm being too rude.

[Griffin Newman]

You're kind of built like the description from Blood Meridian, I was going to.

[Leslie]

Say, I do think there's like, Blood Meridian is like a gateway drug to something. I don't know what, but love him.

[David Sims]

And I love how he clearly. How he behaved his whole life. Totally normal. I love that. No, but I do love it.

[Leslie]

Well adjusted.

[David Sims]

He's one of those guys who. His books, I mean, the Border trilogy, all the Pretty Horses and the Crossing and those books are my favorite. And they will just once every two or three pages, just have a moment, have some line where you're just like, that's the best thing I ever written.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Like, that's the most incredible, beautiful evocation of light going through a fucking window that I've ever seen. And you put the book down and you just soak it in. And that's why I do feel like he's hard to put on film. And they did such an incredible job.

[Griffin Newman]

Putting him on film.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And so that's what I love about this movie the most.

[Griffin Newman]

This movie.

[David Sims]

And we haven't introduced this podcast yet.

[Leslie]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

And I'm gonna do it in a second. But this movie, watching it, I feel the way you just described reading Cormac McCarthy books where like every three minutes there's something that happens where I'm like, that's just. That's the greatest visual storytelling I've ever seen.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the greatest evocation of a feeling. Great moment, a communication of an idea.

[Leslie]

I agree.

[Griffin Newman]

Whether it's thematic or plot. This podcast is called Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

[David Sims]

I'm David.

[Griffin Newman]

We're the two friendos. And it's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce. Friendo. I'm just gonna keep saying friendo. This is a miniseries on the films of Joel and Ethan Cohn. Today we are talking about the titular.

[David Sims]

Film in our series Pod country for old casts.

[Leslie]

Oh, the titular. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, it is. It is.

[David Sims]

For old men is the film the.

[Griffin Newman]

Pinnacle of their career within the industry, Certainly, like within the arc of their career.

[Leslie]

Agreed.

[David Sims]

It's interest. It is both a pinnacle and a comeback.

[Leslie]

Yes, it is a comeback. That's right. Because Lady Killers is right before that.

[Griffin Newman]

And until we're Cruelty is right before that.

[David Sims]

It's sort of them.

[Leslie]

Right?

[David Sims]

It's them as. Look, when you two released all that you can't leave behind, we talk about this all interested in this right now. Sorry. Anytime I bring up YouTube, Ben is.

[Griffin Newman]

Holding a cattle gun to his head.

[David Sims]

They had just, they had made Zropa and they had made pop and they were kind of coin, you know, they were a little down and they were like, we're, we're auditioning, we're re auditioning for the role of like best rock band.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure. Yeah, sure.

[David Sims]

And this is the Cohen's being like, we're, we're re auditioning for like the best directors working this.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

The other thing I was thinking about.

[David Sims]

How to work out for you too. I don't know. Millions of records sold, biggest tours ever, won fucking Grammys.

[Griffin Newman]

But they never got Ben's respect. The ultimate price. I was thinking within the same year. This is very similar to the moment of Spielberg going from 1941 to Raiders of the Lost Ark of just interesting, right?

[Leslie]

Yeah, that's interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

Which in that episode I said was like kind of one of the greatest comeback moments movies in Hollywood history. Not moments because his, his cold streak was not sustained. No, it was a real like, we're ready to knock this guy down to size.

[Leslie]

Yes. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

He just kind of like pulled himself up and was like, I got to make something just like kind of so lean and focused and undeniable.

[Leslie]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And this feels similar to that where I'm like, I don't return to form Spielberg's best movie.

[Leslie]

Mov it. Nail it.

[Griffin Newman]

Best made film.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Like he's just like, I just got to make myself undeniable here.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I mean of course the cones just sort of like. No, we like the book. I mean, I mean I look at what.

[Griffin Newman]

They never talk about that strategy.

[David Sims]

Yeah. They're not like we need to fucking punch Hollywood in the face and knock everyone's teeth.

[Griffin Newman]

They talk about a deeply normal man, Scott Rudin, begging them to do it and being like, I don't know who's going to adapt? Cormac McCarthy.

[Leslie]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But this also comes in a three year gap. After Lady Killers there was this feeling of like, are they just cooked?

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Where did they go? And we were right before we recorded the great Leslie Headlands. Returning to the show podcast of the.

[Leslie]

Acolyte of Bachelorette, Leslie Nation. Rise Up.

[Griffin Newman]

Cult of Love. Cult of Love. Recently on.

[Leslie]

Recently on Broadway. Broadway Girl.

[Griffin Newman]

Soon to be a film.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

In front of cameras.

[Leslie]

A movie soon to be in front of cameras.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

Adaptation.

[Griffin Newman]

We'll see what happens.

[Leslie]

It's certainly not going to be this.

[Griffin Newman]

But we were saying like in you said, how's the series been going And I said, yes, great. Every one of these movies is a delight to rewatch every night. When I'm like, oh, that was what I was wondering. I gotta watch a Cohen movie tonight. I'm just always thrilled.

[Leslie]

Yeah, you're thrilled.

[Griffin Newman]

Always thrilled.

[Leslie]

Yeah. For different reasons.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

Because it might be just a disaster, and then it might be. Yeah. One of the greatest film adaptations ever. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But also, as we've been tracking the critical response of these movies.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

It was like there was such a skepticism about them. Then it's sort of squashed by Fargo. And then right after Fargo, everyone's like, fuck, no, we were right.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And there's a feeling of getting twice as angry as them. And then from this movie on, everyone was like, I guess they're undeniable. It does feel like they so completely won the argument.

[Leslie]

I think it was so interesting, too, that, like, one, two punch of Fargo, we. You know, exactly what you said, Lebowski. Which at the time, everybody.

[Griffin Newman]

People were furious, angry.

[Leslie]

And it's just so funny that that's the film that is culturally.

[Griffin Newman]

Absolutely.

[Leslie]

I mean, of course, Fargo is. But Lebowski has completely surpassed it in that sense.

[Griffin Newman]

It will be the movie in their obituary. Yeah, unquestionably. Right. They will never make something that has a bigger cultural impact.

[Leslie]

That's what it is. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

Is it a. Is it their best movie? No. Like, not at all, but. Yeah, but there's no. Although, you know what? I asked my assistant. I have an assistant. I asked her, like, I quoted the movie, and she was like, you know, she's my assistant. So she's like, uh.

[David Sims]

Huh.

[Leslie]

And I said, well, you know, have you seen the Big Lebowski? And she was like, I mean, I've heard of it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Interesting.

[Leslie]

It's not necessarily a next generation watch, but this is my point.

[Griffin Newman]

What is your assistant?

[Leslie]

She's late 20s.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay. Because my sister's 27. And I'm also wondering now, has she maybe never seen Lebowski?

[Leslie]

But she knows it like she understands something in the world. Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. It is just kind of universal shorthand.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

There is sometimes a question our listeners love to throw out of.

[David Sims]

Like, there's sometimes a buggy.

[Griffin Newman]

There's sometimes a buggy.

[David Sims]

I'm invoking Mulholland Drive, which was the last time.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, this is what I was gonna say. David, who. What guest has had the best run of movies?

[Leslie]

Mine.

[Griffin Newman]

You are a relatively recent addition to our regular guest canon, but you have, Leslie, exclusively covered three of the most important American films the last 25.

[David Sims]

Three films that are sort of, like, seen by many as the best of conversation I've honored.

[Leslie]

I can't believe it happened. This.

[David Sims]

You're out of control is what I'm trying to say. Next time you're getting.

[Griffin Newman]

You're getting dull.

[Leslie]

Exactly. Yeah. Please get me the.

[Griffin Newman]

Get a bowl of diarrhea.

[Leslie]

I was thinking, like, first of all, I was thinking that and, like, how honored and excited and, like, blessed I feel. Thank you all so much for boosting up my ego. But I also thought how similar those three movies are in terms of. Especially in terms of structure. Like, you're just. Again, you're like, wait, which scene is coming next? Like, there's this world that you live in, rather than absolute straight line. Absolute straight line. Like, I was buying a book at a bookstore. I was getting a Coen Brothers book, and they. And the lady was like, oh, this is, you know, so many blah, blah, blah. And I said, oh, I'm doing this podcast about no country for old men. And I previously did Zodiac and Mulholland Drive. And she said, oh, those are really interesting movies. About time.

[Griffin Newman]

This is true.

[David Sims]

Zodiac. Very much so. Obviously. Mulholland Driver. Yeah, no, absolutely.

[Griffin Newman]

Also, not to be reductive, but I think all three movies, at their core, are about touching the membrane of, like, absolute darkness. Right.

[Leslie]

Yes, that's true.

[Griffin Newman]

And this feeling of, like, can you make it through the other side? Once, you know, exist.

[Leslie]

That's the other side of the coin in inviting me.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Leslie]

You know, is that I get to do the. I get to do the best movies. But also, the flip side of the coin is you're here for the darkest shit.

[Griffin Newman]

I also think that you and I are similar. It's interesting. Look, your friend Zach Kreger, who we had on the Fargo episode.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

The two of you got engaged in your own Kong toss.

[Leslie]

We did.

[Griffin Newman]

Trying to pick between those two episodes, and you were going back and forth, and we said, look, we're gonna win either way. However this lands, we're happy to have either of you on either one. Figure it out amongst yourselves.

[Leslie]

And we hooked up and, you know, connected. And he said, you know, I really love to do Fargo, because I kind of went like, oh, Fargo's available. Let's do it. And then he, you know, he said, hey, you know, I really want to do Fargo. I have this personal connection to it. I love the film. And clearly he's a filmmaker. And I said, yeah, man, I just thought you'd want to do no Country. Yeah, I just wanted to give you that because it's their, you know, it's. It's everything that you're saying. It may not be the best film. I think we can talk about why it's a superlative. Very influential in their being taken seriously. Best picture, et cetera. And he really was like, oh, do you think that, you know, not in a derogatory way, but he certainly was like, oh, I would consider Fargo. Like, that's the one that I would lean towards.

[David Sims]

It worked out because that episode comes out close to the release of his film. And that's fun.

[Leslie]

Oh, that's good.

[Griffin Newman]

Everything worked out. But when you were texting with us about it, you were like, I mean, does it make more sense for me to do Fargo? Like, female protagonist.

[Leslie]

Yes, exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

The sort of like, black humor.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Versus, like, is Zack seen as a little more highbrow and thrillery and sparse and you were sort of like talking over the sides of it.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But I was gonna say, I think you and I are similar in this respect. Is like this feeling of constantly thinking about the absolute worst things in the world and like, needing to combat that with some sense of humor.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That is avoidance. That is like trying to push through it, which is a thing I think the Cohens do really well.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I think all three of the movies you' covered are funny in bizarre ways.

[Leslie]

In certain ways. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I think this movie is very funny in bizarre ways.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I think like, Fargo is more explicitly funny and has this sense of like, we are going to place goodness at the center of this. We're going to remind you that it exists in a very pure way.

[Leslie]

Yeah, I agree. And I think that when I was thinking of the three of them and then I am curious your guys feeling like the Fargo versus this movie. But, like, very quickly I was thinking about the three of those movies and. And how, like, in a personal way. Yeah. There was just this, like, delving into darkness and the, you know, at the times that those films came out, like.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

I said on Zodiac that like, you know, I watched it every day for a while because I was so depressed and then.

[David Sims]

It's comforting.

[Leslie]

It's very comforting. And Mulholland Drive, like I said, you know, lesbian working in Hollywood with suicide ideation. That's me. I totally relate with that. What's interesting is that I couldn't really figure out why this movie is hit me so hard. So I'm excited to talk about it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

I don't know how why it hit me so hard at the time and why it hit me so hard Rewatching.

[Griffin Newman]

It, I think that was part of it for me in this non conspiratorial way, because I like that the movie doesn't create some insane interconnected web of stuff. Right. Like, to a certain degree, the. The events of this movie are kind of meaningless.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

In a way, they love.

[David Sims]

Yes. The events of this movie revolve around things that are really not our business. Business.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Yes. And like Llewellyn, the only sort of quote unquote, kind of, you know, normal guy in his head.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

He just shouldn't have gotten involved in this business. Now Ben's about to say if he stumbled across he found the bag of money, he would have escaped scot free with no issues whatsoever. I'd be sipping on a Mai Tai somewhere for sure.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's been interesting in the episodes we've done leading up to this, and when no country gets invoked, several different guests have gone. It just always drives me crazy that he goes back and gives the water. That makes zero.

[Leslie]

Absolutely.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Leslie]

Yeah. I was, When I was rewatching it, my wife was like, so stupid.

[Griffin Newman]

Bring it up as such an urgent. Like, I still haven't gotten over this. As if it's like the kind of slam against a horror movie of why would he go in there? That's so dumb. Right?

[Leslie]

Yes. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But I think it's like the core of the movie is why it is so effective and maddening is you're like, the guy is basically doing the save the cat thing and it ruins his entire life.

[Leslie]

Ruins that. Yeah. Well, it's also like what Chigurh says to Woody Harrelson.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

If the rule that brought you here, it's like, if the rule that brought you here, what use was the rule?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

Right. So the rule of you bring water to a dying man.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

You know what I mean? What was the use of that after everything that comes after it?

[Griffin Newman]

As you said, David, he never should have been there. He shouldn't have gotten into this. Right.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But he would have been in a better place if he actually just took the money and ran. And the fact that he goes back and does the moral thing to, in his mind, kind of balance it fucks him to a far deeper degree in.

[Leslie]

A very intense way.

[David Sims]

Well, it's you, sort of. But also he should have just looked in the bag. There's a fucking tracker in the bag.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Can I just shut it out? Clever about the carve out.

[David Sims]

He's clever too, though. He's, you know, he's supposedly. He has clever moments Because I don't want to make it seem like I wouldn't. Like I have humanity.

[Griffin Newman]

I would feel for this deeply moral man.

[David Sims]

Yeah. I would have empathy.

[Leslie]

Empathy.

[David Sims]

So what I would have done is grabbed a cactus because, you know, they're full of water. I was gonna say they're all juice. Easy to grab.

[Griffin Newman]

Grabbable.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Well, yeah. You know, I would get like. I would. Ben is making hand movements. I would make it happen.

[Griffin Newman]

Also famously easy to do.

[Leslie]

Yeah. I was gonna say like, what is happening?

[David Sims]

And then once I've now got the bag back home. Here's the thing. I would definitely do.

[Griffin Newman]

You go through every bit.

[David Sims]

I would dump it out on the bed because I want to roll around in that friggin money. You're not even dumping it out to sort of take a closer look. You're like, I need to Scrooge McDuck it right away.

[Griffin Newman]

And in doing that you would end up discovering the track because you're not smart, but because your instincts. Yep. Are that kind of in tune.

[David Sims]

I want to throw it up in the air. I want to make it rain.

[Griffin Newman]

And would maybe make it work.

[Leslie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I think similarly, like spoilers for no country for Old Men. But like the most fascinating thing this movie does and the thing that Coen brothers said was the thing that made them ultimately decide, fuck, we should adapt. This is the feeling of this kind of wrong footed thriller where the lead characters never meet each other.

[Leslie]

Yes. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And it all ultimately feels a little meaningless.

[David Sims]

It's a movie that seems to promise a showdown and the showdown never really thrives.

[Griffin Newman]

All building towards these three characters ending up in a good, the bad and the ugly style standoff.

[Leslie]

Yes. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And instead. And I, you know, as someone who just kept seeing this in the suburbs of Valencia.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And would just feel the audience go like, what do you mean he's dead? The moment you cut to Josh Brolin on the floor and there's this feeling of like, there must be a misunderstanding. He's. He's pulling a Hannibal Lichter. Someone else is wearing his face. Whatever it is. There's no way the movie has just. And it's got 30 minutes left to go.

[Leslie]

It's such a weird shot as well. It's really in a place where you can't quite see his face.

[Griffin Newman]

The angle is.

[Leslie]

The angle is wild.

[Griffin Newman]

You're like under his jaw. And then it's not really. Until Tommy Lee Jones takes off his hat and Kelly McDonald cries that. You're like, I guess, I guess that was him. I Guess it's real.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But the moment before it, I think.

[Leslie]

What I'm saying is, like, there's no veneration. No, of course, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

There's.

[Leslie]

Yeah, that's what it's.

[Griffin Newman]

He doesn't get a hero's death and it's. You get this slow fade out and then the next thing you see is the police arriving. Right.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And the dissolve comes after a woman sitting by the side of the pool promising him beer.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Hitting on him.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And he keeps going like, my wife is coming.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm a married man. I don't want to.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And you're like, you keep wondering, is this a morality test that he's gonna slip?

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And in the universe of this movie, that is what causes his death.

[Leslie]

That's a good point.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Not that she's a temptress, a siren of evil or whatever, but that it's a sense of that, this gu.

[Leslie]

Right. But. But is it like. Is it like the water where he's punished for the good thing? Perhaps he turns her down? Do you know what I mean? Like, and punished for that?

[David Sims]

In the book, obviously, that character is more major.

[Leslie]

She is. She's like a runaway.

[David Sims]

Yes. They have a whole long section that all gets cut. Yeah, but no, his. His. No, it's his grandma. His sorry mother in law is the one who gets him killed, too. She gives him away.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, she gives him away.

[David Sims]

He shouldn't have called his wife.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Yeah, yes. He.

[David Sims]

Look, his biggest mistake is he stays in a fucking motel. Stay in a hotel with a desk, a concierge that like assassins can't just knock on your fucking door. Like, you just want, like one layer.

[Griffin Newman]

Of people to get food. This is a very good call.

[David Sims]

Instead, he's like, what's your cheapest motel? I'm like, you have a bag of money.

[Leslie]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[David Sims]

Spring for a presidential suite. I get the idea of, like, I don't want anyone seeing me. I don't want to CCTV what, you.

[Griffin Newman]

Know, like, with the AC vent is clever.

[David Sims]

That's the thing where I'm like, you're kind of smart.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

You know what's.

[Leslie]

Sorry. When he's looking at the. You know, the guy underneath the tree. You know, the way that he waits, the way that the time is expressed to us via the wristwatch. Like, you get a sense of like, oh, this guy was in nom. Like you get it. Like, you get that this is somebody that does have some sort of street smarts. Right. But then exactly what you're saying, David it's like, then he makes choices that you're like, I'm so sorry.

[David Sims]

What?

[Griffin Newman]

Like, he doesn't belong in this movie.

[David Sims]

He's not that good at this stuff. Exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

He's dealing with an entirely different league of person. But to your point, it's like, I think especially by cutting out all that backstory of that character. Right?

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

It's better to a moment of a choice.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And that choice doesn't gain him anything. In the same way that doing the kind thing to the dying man doesn't gain him anything.

[David Sims]

I want to open the dosing.

[Griffin Newman]

Please do.

[David Sims]

In a second. But I do want to know re what all you guys are saying. That's why I was on the one hand, mildly surprised that in the year of 2007, a big year for movies, Zodiac among them.

[Leslie]

Yes. Yeah.

[David Sims]

This won Best Picture. It won Best Picture over There Will Be Blood, which is kind of like a magnum opus from PTA, obviously. Michael Clayton, what were the other big.

[Griffin Newman]

2000 and atonement were the five nominees.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Atonement got Best Picture, but then Julian Schnabel got the Joe Wright slot in director David is miming praise. Applause. Taking a bow. Oh, no. He's jerking off a giant dick.

[Leslie]

Yeah. What's the giant dick about?

[Griffin Newman]

Sorry.

[David Sims]

I don't like Julian Schnaul.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't like Julian Schnabel. I. I like that movie a tremendous amount. That is an ultimate onion. Heartbreaking. The worst guy, you know, just made.

[David Sims]

A good point mov for me, and.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm like, he did kind of do this well.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Although I give more credit.

[Leslie]

Broken Clock is right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yano Chanel.

[David Sims]

This movie is obviously incredibly compelling and well made, but it is not satisfying, as you're saying, in the sort of, you know, maybe traditional Hollywoody Western way you might expect. And so it is sort of surprising to want Best Picture. You watch There Will Be Blood, which has Daniel Day Lewis screaming, I abandoned my boy. It's not like There Will Be Blood is like an easy movie, but you watch it and you are like, this is the kind of thing you would think, like, would kind of triumph. It's so epic. It's so. The acting is so big, like, in all this. And I just remember when this movie came out and I feel this way to this day, I have never seen a film be as well received as this film.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And I. Since then, lots of movies have come out to praise. You know, I remember when the reviews came out for this, I was like, I think this is essentially getting a 100 from everybody.

[Leslie]

Wait, I'm sorry, you.

[David Sims]

You're no country for old him.

[Leslie]

You're saying that for forever, like in all perpetuity.

[David Sims]

I've never seen a film as well received.

[Griffin Newman]

No one questioned.

[David Sims]

And I don't think people really remember how well this movie went over.

[Griffin Newman]

And I. I think there was a bit of this and There Will Be Blood were very much pitted against each other.

[David Sims]

There will Be what's an amazing movie. But like, there were some people that were. It was more divisive.

[Leslie]

That would be me.

[David Sims]

Leslie weighed in. She said, what a piece of shit.

[Leslie]

I just, you know, will be poop. Was your review sound off in the comments? Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

No. I was a little colder on that movie at the time and I have grown to like it more. But I do agree with you that these two films are pit against each other. There was weird synchronicity between them. They were both set in the same place.

[Leslie]

They were shot in the same place simultaneously, but in the same place they.

[Griffin Newman]

Were shot and they were shot at the same time.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, they talk about that the crews were having to avoid each other, like to like negotiate who got what location when.

[David Sims]

That's wild.

[Griffin Newman]

And they were both like American arturs who had kind of disappeared. And it was like, what are these guys doing? And it was seen as this sort of like, here's the next chapter. Yeah, right.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But you're right that this movie is bizarre in how sort of bracing and unsparing and it's like deliberately unsatisfying. It is. And yet it ended up being the sort of like. Like more populist pick, I think, relative to There Will Be Blood, which was seen as almost more nihilistic.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I don't know. They're only. But somewhat punishing.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And. But. And just. Just when you just think about it, it's like, right. How does this movie end? Llewellyn Moss gets shot by unrelated Mexican gangsters right off screen.

[Griffin Newman]

Then Tommy Lee Jones spends 20 minutes.

[David Sims]

Is like, I'm having this dream. And generally I'm kind of bummed out by the world. Yeah, the end. But there's been hit by the car and he's like, oh, Jesus, that hurt. And you're like. And that's it. That's it.

[Griffin Newman]

And you're like, does the car kill him?

[David Sims]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

He limps away.

[David Sims]

No, he's in pain.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And you're like, okay.

[Griffin Newman]

What were you going to say, Leslie?

[Leslie]

Well, I was.

[David Sims]

All those endings, to be clear, I think they're great.

[Leslie]

Incredible. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

David's eating a hot dog in a croissant kolache. Okay.

[Leslie]

I was curious when you finished eating, David, why do you think this was sort of universally acclaimed? Especially because you're claiming that it's, you know, 100% and then since 2007, there's.

[David Sims]

Been nothing like it. I mean, I think partly there was this vibe of, like, the Cohens are back. Thank God.

[Leslie]

Yeah, thank God.

[David Sims]

You know, it's basically been since Fargo, every single thing they've made since Fargo. People had been hot and cold on, like, even your Lebowskis or your old brothers. You know, those movies had more fans, but at the time, both got the reaction of, like, this. This kind of goofy thing is what they want to do.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

They'd been in such a goofy mode, and then they're just like, we just made the most, like, psychotic, cold blooded, like, crime thriller you ever saw.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

That's also shot through with, like, Tommy Lee Jones furrowed brow about what has happened to this, you know, world that we live in. And people were just like, I've never been so electrified. That's how I felt.

[Leslie]

Right, right, right, right.

[Griffin Newman]

Swiss watch construction film that is still somehow explicitly built around themes and ideas.

[Leslie]

You know, and this is right before Obama. This is right before. So we're all kind of worn out. Yeah, we're kind of worn out. What were the. What were, like, the four best pictures leading up to that?

[Griffin Newman]

That's a great question. So 2006 was departed.

[Leslie]

Yikes. Right?

[Griffin Newman]

2005 was crash.

[Leslie]

Crash. Jesus Christ. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

2004 was million dollar Baby, which is a Great Movie. And 2003 was Return of the King.

[Leslie]

Yeah, right. Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

And then what? Then Chicago feels like very Gladiator.

[Leslie]

Sorry. But it's all very, like, kind of genre y. You know, like, it's not. The Crash win is just so sort of bizarre. Everyone's. I mean, from. I think the people who want. I mean, think Paul Haggis was like, sorry, what? Like, I mean, you know, Brokeback was really, you know, seen as the front runner until, you know, gay people happened.

[Griffin Newman]

It is absolutely a. A defensive best picture win.

[Leslie]

Yeah, it's a. Yeah. And then Departed is kind of like this afterthought win for Scorsese, who's made 17,000 better movies than that.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, right, exactly. And that was even the line at the time of letting, like, is it a little silly that we're going to give it to him for this? And yet they were like, it's kind of a weak year. This movie was a Big hit. Why not this year?

[Leslie]

Right, right.

[Griffin Newman]

Versus this film being seen as, like, is this the Coen brothers towering achievement? Is that their magnum opus? And I think it was. I think David's right. The fact that there was this feeling of comeback, the fact that the movie is sort of just like, so clean and undeniable in its craft.

[Leslie]

It's also the. A throat slit of a movie.

[Griffin Newman]

It is like.

[Leslie]

It is not. It's not an easy one. It is like. I mean, we're like, hey, Departed. And, you know, of course, very violent.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

You know, but also very mainstream.

[David Sims]

You know, like, so incredibly funny. And, like.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And Wahlberg.

[Leslie]

Wahlberg handles it at the end. You know what I mean? Like, he handles it so it's not, like, as nihilistic as the quote, ending of that movie is, we still get the guy at the end, shoots the other guy.

[Griffin Newman]

I find this movie very comforting, but it is the kind of movie where I. I usually am on that island and other people are like, what the fuck are you talking about? Why do you want to live in that headspace?

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And, like, Mulholland Drive was wildly acclaimed, but was also, like, for a certain type of person.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Big flashing warning signs above that movie of like, hey, if you don't love David lynch, you're probably not gonna like this.

[Leslie]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And Zodiac was, like, not totally recognizing.

[Leslie]

You don't like David Fincher. You're not gonna like this.

[Griffin Newman]

And this is him going, like, very procedural and it's really dark. Right. But in a way, without the stylization and the pulp of something like seven.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And this movie, everyone's just like, yeah. Kind of undeniable. And I also think it's interesting that 2007 was such a humongous fucking movie year. And one that we keep pointing back to is like, was that the last time we were just kind of firing on all cylinders.

[Leslie]

Wait, can I say something about There Will Be Blood that I just thought of when you were saying that. I wonder if the There Will Be Blood thing is that it's so arm's length.

[Griffin Newman]

I think so.

[Leslie]

You know, I mean, this. It's incredible performances, but in a weird way, you're sort of just watching them. You're not.

[Griffin Newman]

Character study about a man. You cannot understand.

[Leslie]

Exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, no one is watching me.

[David Sims]

Wants oil.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, if you say he's an oil man, I would agree.

[Leslie]

I would be. I would be interested to challenge anyone to say, did you empathize? Or maybe not even empathize, but did you recognize or empathize the journey of that character. And I think 70 to 80 to 90% of the people would be like, no, he was just an asshole. And it was an interesting character study because of that. But there's a flawed guy.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I'll allow that.

[Leslie]

But I don't think that you're. I don't think you leave that movie being like Citizen Kane.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Leslie]

You don't leave that movie going, ugh, that guy. You know, at least I didn't.

[Griffin Newman]

I remember. I remember that movie, first screening, and some people going, that might be the best movie ever made. Like, there were those people. And then there were also people who were just like, I don't fucking get it. And there were people. You were never gonna get to sit down and watch it.

[Leslie]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And there's something about this, even though it is purposefully withholding the kind of denouement you want out of a movie like this.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I just think there was something about being like, a guy finds a bag of money that he shouldn't have, and someone's chasing him.

[Leslie]

That's exactly right.

[Griffin Newman]

And the film is so, like, to the bone as much as it is throat slit. There's, like, a framework of it that is so recognizable.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That helps people recognize what it's doing. Well, what's it called?

[David Sims]

Kolache.

[Griffin Newman]

A kolache?

[David Sims]

Yes. It's a Czech thing, I think, but it's very popular in Texas, in the South. Shout out my kolache eaters on this podcast. I'm sure there's a few. It's basically just like a savory sort of pastry thing with a hot dog in it. Sometimes it has a hot dog.

[Griffin Newman]

Yours did. Did not. Yeah, it sure did.

[Leslie]

Were you just eating it?

[David Sims]

Yeah, but sometimes, you know, you could put, like, eggs in there or jalapenos or. But they do sweet ones as well. They have sweet ones as well. Very nice. Brook, Clotchy Co. Decal, and Bedford. Anyone wants to go there? I go there all the time.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I. I just think there's something to the sturdiness of the genre setup of this movie.

[Leslie]

I agree. And I think that, like, in the 2007 of it all, we're kind of all over it.

[David Sims]

I mean, my favorite. My second favorite president. Sorry, Donald's with us now, of course. But at the time, my favorite president, he was just winding down.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm sorry, your first air president is George W. Bush. Donald 45. Your second favorite's Donald 47.

[David Sims]

Okay. You're right. Okay. But my current. My favorite President at the time was winding down a second perfect term with no issues whatsoever. Mission accomplished. Every mission had been accomplished. No, you're right. There's a lot of crazy how quickly.

[Griffin Newman]

We solved that one.

[David Sims]

It's an interesting era because it's like, it's a year before the recession where all the chickens have come home to roost.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Right, right, right.

[David Sims]

You know, so it's like the country is ostensibly, like, in, like, okay shape, I guess, but, like, everyone's just already like, nah, man. Like, the milk is spoiled. Like, we suck. This has been years of us sucking.

[Leslie]

It's the guy at the. In the wheelchair at the end. Like, it's like, can't stop what's coming.

[David Sims]

Right?

[Leslie]

You know, it's like, in a way, it's foreshadowing what we all already know.

[David Sims]

Yeah. We're like, jesus, we've just been, like, hearing about the fucking Iraq War and Katrina and, like, all this shit, it.

[Griffin Newman]

This wins. It is anointed. But yet you step back and look at 2007, which is studied as a year of just like, we got everything right.

[Leslie]

Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

The slate of the great movies of 2007 do not all reflect that feeling. It is not a year. You look at where you're like, there's something in the air.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I can see expressed in multi movies in different ways. Right? Yes. But I'm like Zodiac and There Will Be Blood and no country or on a spectrum. But then you're like. Like, Atonement and Juno are in Best Picture. Michael Clayton is a little closer to.

[Leslie]

That earlier batch that Michael Clayton feels like a. The departed of that year.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. You know, but also is very much like that. We got to keep our eye on the corporations. They might not have our best interest right now.

[David Sims]

They have our best interest. I believe you would say that.

[Griffin Newman]

Just raising the question. Ratatouille. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Ratatouille is about the corporations. You got to watch out for those guys.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

No, I don't know. David. What?

[Griffin Newman]

This episode of Blank Check with Griffin David podcast about filmographies is brought to you by booking.combooking.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, that's what I was about to say. Booking, dot. Yeah. From vacation rentals to hotels across the U.S. booking dot com. Booking. Yeah. Has the ideal stay for anyone, even those who might seem impossible to please. God, I'm trying to think of anyone in my life, perhaps even in this room, Ben, who's like, what's an example of someone I know who maybe has.

[David Sims]

A very particular set of concerns Bringing me in. And there's only one other person in the room.

[Griffin Newman]

There's one other person in the room.

[David Sims]

I think this is so rude. I sleep easy. I'm definitely not someone who insists on 800 thread count sheets. No, that's an example of a fussy person.

[Griffin Newman]

Look, people have different demands. And you know what? If you're traveling, traveling, that's your time to start making demands.

[David Sims]

You know, you've got a partner who's sleep light, rise early, or maybe, you know, like, you just want someone who wants a pool or wants a view or I don't know, maybe any kind of demand.

[Griffin Newman]

And I need a room with some good soundproofing because I'm gonna be doing some remote pod record.

[David Sims]

Sure. Maybe you're in Europe and you want to make sure.

[Griffin Newman]

That's very demanding to be in Europe.

[David Sims]

You got air conditioning, conditioning. Well, think of one person in particular, although it's really both of you. You gotta have air conditioning. I need air conditioning if I'm in the North Pole. Look, if I can find. Find my perfect stay on booking.com, anyone can. Booking.com is definitely the easiest way to find exactly what you're looking for.

[Griffin Newman]

Like for me, a non negotiable is I need a gorgeous bathroom for selfies.

[David Sims]

Y. You do. You love selfies.

[Griffin Newman]

As long as I got a good bathroom mirror for selfies, I'm happy with everything else.

[David Sims]

Look, they're. Again, they. They're specifying like, oh, maybe you want a sauna or hot tub. And I'm like, sounds good to me. Yeah, please. Can I check that?

[Griffin Newman]

You want one of those in the recording studio?

[David Sims]

That'd be great.

[Griffin Newman]

You want to start? You want to be.

[David Sims]

I'll be in the sauna when we record.

[Griffin Newman]

I was going to say you. You want to be the Dalton Trumbo, a podcast. You want to be splish splash.

[David Sims]

You would be good if I had a sauna and a cold plunge and. And while recording, I'm on mic. But you just. We're going back like, like as I move to the.

[Griffin Newman]

These are the kinds of demands that. Booking.combooking. yeah.

[David Sims]

Yes, you can find exactly what you're booking for. Booking.com booking, yeah. Booking.com book today on the site or in the app. Booking.com Booking, yeah. All right, I'm opening the. The dossier. Okay. In the late 1980s, Cormac McCarthy, normal guy.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Started working on a screenplay. Chill, dude. Chill, dude. From minute one. Started working on a screenplay. I mean, God, like the whole thing where his first wife Married him when he had no money and they lived in like a shack with no electricity or whatever. And he was like, you have to go make money because I'm writing my books.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Normal guy.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And like, he fucking got away with a lot of shit just by writing masterpieces that ass. You know, like, there's other guys who probably do that and they write unreadable shit.

[Griffin Newman]

It also took. It took quite a bit of time.

[David Sims]

It took him a long time, I think, for to get noticed. Like, his books, even his early books are very good. Like, he's a very interesting writer, but like, yes, took him a minute.

[Griffin Newman]

Can you just imagine this guy with this headspace being unsuccessful, just not gonna.

[David Sims]

Eat a lot of beans.

[Griffin Newman]

I gotta make this fucking work.

[David Sims]

So in the 80s, he starts writing a screenplay play called no country for Old Men. He couldn't find any funding for it, and he puts it on the shelf in 2005, of course.

[Leslie]

Oh, before writing the novel.

[David Sims]

Long before.

[Leslie]

Oh. So he. He originally was like, this is a movie.

[David Sims]

That is why that novel is so goddamn readable. Some of his novels are pretty tough to crack and it is so dialogue heavy. It's a little more propulsive and plotty or whatever. And you can find, if you go to Texas State University where I think, like, all his fucking documents are, you know, a lot of fragments of this screenplay or whatever. But. But he eventually turns it into a book, comes out in 2005, and the reviews even note, like, this feels like a Coen Brothers movie. You know what I mean? Like, they're also like, oh, in general, like, oh, it's quite cinematic. And like, I can see its origins or whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

When does the Road come out? Is it right before? Right after?

[David Sims]

The Road is right after.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

And so the whole thing with Cor McCarthy is in 2005, when he releases no country for Old Men. He is a major novelist, but one year later, he releases the Road and becomes basically like a celebrity and one of the most famous writers alive.

[Griffin Newman]

It is kind of his no country the Movie moment, where everyone's like, okay, we all agree.

[Leslie]

Yeah, well, it's a backdrop.

[Griffin Newman]

You're the president of literature.

[David Sims]

And he suddenly is like he's getting dragged onto Oprah. And he's like a guy who's like, never done any fucking press. And he's. But like, it's like he cannot avoid the phenomenon that that book is.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, well, and just him becoming a late in life parent and being like, oh, my God, It's a Cormac McCarthy novel with. With surface level emotion.

[David Sims]

Is about two people walking down a road, like, and it's a post apocalyptic book and it's about a father and son. It's so easy to get your hands.

[Griffin Newman]

On of it made him an Oprah book club guy for the first time because it's like Oprah can't be like, look, I like this, but this might freak you guys out. The road has that quarter. I mean the road. Phenomenal book.

[Leslie]

Yeah, phenomenal.

[David Sims]

It is. It's very good. It is not. Not my favorite by far, but it's very, very readable. Anyway, Scott Rudin, Normal guy.

[Leslie]

Normal guy.

[Griffin Newman]

Normal guy. Normal, yeah.

[David Sims]

Gets the rights to this book, I think, before it even releases. And he.

[Griffin Newman]

As he was wont to do.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Basically this era is just like a fucking vacuum cleaner for any kind of buzzy manuscript. Yeah.

[David Sims]

He has been working with the Cohen since Raising Arizona. He was oversaw production at the age of 28 on that movie. But this is the first time that he is the producer, the lead producer of a film of theirs and he does their next three.

[Griffin Newman]

I want to say that sounds.

[David Sims]

He does Burn after reading and True Grit. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Does he not do Lewin Davis?

[David Sims]

No, I think not. Let me double check.

[Griffin Newman]

Certainly True Grit.

[David Sims]

No, he didn't do Burn. I want to get this right. He did, but he did do Grit.

[Griffin Newman]

We talk about it.

[David Sims]

No, he definitely does Grit.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I just can't remember what the third thing he does is. It is Lewin. So those are the three movies he worked with them on.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

He gets them to commit to writing. He's hoping he can convince them to direct.

[Leslie]

This is their first adaptation, right?

[David Sims]

Yes. I mean, you could call O Brother an adaptation of sorts because it's the Odyssey. But they would say they never even like opened the Odyssey.

[Griffin Newman]

But when they win best Screenplay, Joel makes the joke of the only two authors we've ever adapted are Homer and Cormac McCarthy. Which feels right.

[Leslie]

Which feels right. Just very quickly. The.

[David Sims]

The Lady Killers is also an adaptation.

[Griffin Newman]

I will say not of a book.

[Leslie]

Remake. Remake.

[Griffin Newman]

That's true.

[Leslie]

That's true. I just think it's interesting, the sort of like forethought of normal guy Scott Rudin to approach the Coen brothers when they don't really adapt. You know, a lot of the appeal of their films is their language.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

And how funny they are and tone and. And, you know, commanding performances that are based on their scripts.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Here are a couple things at play though. One is Scott Rudin is so fucking hungry to win an Oscar. This is the movie that finally gets him Best Picture.

[Leslie]

Right, right, right.

[Griffin Newman]

And it felt like he had been running his entire life to get to that moment on stage.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And he gets on stage and goes, oh my God, what a surprise. And I'm just like my guy. You've been giving this speech in your bathroom mirror.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

For a long day of your life. And as David said, this movie has been on like a golden run from the moment it premiered at Cannes.

[David Sims]

But.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

It was a tough year. I'm sure it was a hard fought campaign or whatever. Especially because it was. I mean, Miramax is somewhat behind it, but it's a Paramount Vantage movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And I don't know how much Paramount Vantage, like was, you know, sharp EL Bowden.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. It's basically the final stages of post Weinstein Miramax, which will completely dissolve before once again getting revived within a couple years.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And Vantage is shut down basically within two or three years of this.

[Leslie]

Actually, I think that Miramax. Actually, I think that. I think that 2006, 2007 time period is when they end the partnership with Disney.

[David Sims]

That sounds about right.

[Leslie]

They stop being touchstone and they go to Weinstein Company.

[Griffin Newman]

They tell. I know the Weinstein because Grindhouse is this same. Same year.

[Leslie]

That's right. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And that was a Weinstein Company movie.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So definitely they had left before this.

[David Sims]

So.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

Yeah. Oh, I see what you're saying.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Right. I mean, they. They officially basically shut it down in 2009. Disney did.

[Griffin Newman]

But Weinstein Company is 05 or 06.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Fahrenheit 911 is the whole flashpoint. Anyway. It doesn't matter.

[Leslie]

And it doesn't matter. But just point being, it's the end of that run.

[David Sims]

Fahrenheit 9 11. Of course. A film that lied about my great president, George.

[Griffin Newman]

Your third favorite president.

[David Sims]

Sorry, Leslie.

[Leslie]

No, I was just going to say like this is the end of. Of. Of. Of the Miramax run and the birth of. Of Scott Rudd.

[Griffin Newman]

This is a weird co production of two companies that are in transitional space that hate each other.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And they're about to close down.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Stuck between eras of two different tyrants. Right.

[Leslie]

Normal guys. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. But Scott Rudin's playbook for so long, beyond throwing things at people and demanding string cheese, was. Was that he would just get in his mind the most talented auteurs under his wing.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

After they had proven themselves or once they needed some support.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And he was basically a human version of like Richard Kelly's the Box. Right. Where he'd be like Just don't look. And if you need something, push a button. And maybe someone gets hurt. But you don't have to know about it.

[Leslie]

But you don't have to know about it.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. I'm just gonna fight all your fights for you and insulate you from this. But his favorite thing to do was like, find the material.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Find the director. Or be like, what do you want to do next? And all of it felt like, in the grand scheme of things, one of these days, this is going to pay off in me winning Best Picture. Right.

[Leslie]

Yes. The bathroom speeches begin. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. I'm trying to find the right confluence of elements. So I think that's part of it. He's just constantly looking for what might have the juice and looking in unconventional places to his credit. The other part of it is post Lebowski, when they're kind of knocked down, they start taking four higher writing jobs for the first time.

[Leslie]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And so there's a lot of. I didn't realize, but Lady Killer starts out as a script that they were not supposed to direct. And Talbot Cruelty was a rewrite job. They were not supposed to direct. They get talked into both of those. And then there's, like, the Gambit remake that someone else ends up making. There's some other stuff. So they're in this zone where they're a little for hire. And Ruden's going by that playbook of, oh, I see.

[Leslie]

If they know. So it's a little more like set up than Rudin having the foresight of correct. Coen brothers could write this.

[Griffin Newman]

Now, the last two times times this happened, it didn't work out for them. But I think he's going, this feels like a better match for them. And if I can sneak them through the back door of just try adapting this, maybe they will once again fall in love with the material, agree to direct it, and this will actually work for them.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So obviously, the only real Cormac McCarthy adaptation that had appeared in theaters before this is all the Pretty Horses, which is basically the greatest book ever written. The movie is not very good. Supposedly, there's a better cut out there somewhere.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. It's a contested. Certainly the movie that was released in theaters was not what anyone wanted to make. And the question is, was there a version of it that would have worked?

[Leslie]

Well, I think that Billy Bob Thornton, by his own admission, essentially screened an assembly. That's what he said.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

And that everybody freaked out.

[David Sims]

Everyone was like. Like, right. Exactly. Exactly. That book is also poetic, spare, difficult to adapt, like, silently. Char you know, like, whatever. This is a pulpy thriller, like, and the Cohen are like, we're very aware of McCarthy, but, like, this felt like something we could get our hands around much more. But they love that it's a pulpy book that's an ordinary, straightforward treatment of a crime story. And then the ending is so weird. Yes, they like that. Three quarters in, suddenly they're like, main character's gonna disappear. You know what I mean? So they like the chase story then getting subverted.

[Griffin Newman]

There's another thing they love, which is that for the first half of the 2000s, their big dream project was to the White Sea, as covered extensively in our friends Ray and Jordan's podcast, which was a novel adaptation that is mostly in the one character's head that doesn't have a ton of dialogue and is this sort of odd take on a survival film. And they could never get that off the ground. Right?

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But they, in reading this book, link back to that. The same thing that animated them, which is having a character who barely talks, who you get to define by his actions within a survival situation. Right, Right. That it is circumstantial behavior. Can you paint a full character portrait through that? That this guy speaks so rarely. He's at the center of the story and we're only seeing him in a very specific set of circum. And we're learning who he is through how he tries to game out his continued survival.

[Leslie]

That is what's up.

[Griffin Newman]

And so. Right.

[Leslie]

That is what's up.

[Griffin Newman]

They try to make the movie that is just all that and it's a little too wild and a little too expensive.

[Leslie]

Right, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

They had Brad Pitt. He fell out. They were like, it's not getting green lit if you don't have him. Right. Suddenly it's like, Rudin's bringing them this. It's a smaller budget, it's a cleaner sell, but it's got the same juice that they had wanted to play with.

[David Sims]

J.J. thinks this, and I agree with him that it is a lot. There's a lot of it that reminds me of Miller's Crossing. Both adapting writers, Miller's Crossing, inadvertent, or more indirectly, doing Dashiell Hammett. Not as specific, but as they would put it, they like how Cormac McCarthy, this is a quote from Ethan, refuses to tell you what people are thinking and just describes what people are doing. Doing.

[Leslie]

I am.

[David Sims]

So they like the lack of interiority. They're like, that's engrossing. That's, like, interesting in a movie. And they, you know, you have in this book a bad guy, Anton Chigurh. I don't know if you guys agree he's a bad guy.

[Griffin Newman]

I think he raises some interesting ideas.

[David Sims]

He's a marketplace of ideas. You have essentially a good guy, Sheriff Bell. And then you have Llewellyn in the middle, who's kind of a gray guy, kind of a. Sort of like. He's not malevolent, but he's kind of, you know.

[Leslie]

Yeah. He's like. He's driven by greed, which we all can relate with. He likes his. He loves his wife, which we're all kind of down with. He does some stupid things where, you know, as the outsiders, we can definitely be like, I wouldn't do that. But, like, you don't know. You're kind of, you know, we're all kind of stupid.

[David Sims]

Relatable, 100%.

[Leslie]

And then, you know, just the classic in too deep, in over his head, recognizable beginning, middle, and end to your Everyman storyline.

[Griffin Newman]

And you start out with this triangle of, like, kind of an unlikely protagonist. Right. Thrust in the middle of the wrong story, being chased by an unstoppable force.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And the cop who is slowly narrowing in on it all from circling around.

[David Sims]

It slower and closer and closer.

[Leslie]

Right.

[David Sims]

They make it clear to Rudin, like, hey, hey, this is gonna be violent. Just make sure you're cool with that. Right. And he's like, yeah, they have the line of one of us.

[Leslie]

It sounded a little different than that, but. Yes.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, of course. One of us types into the computer. The other holds the spine of the book flat. That's very funny with the book. Every other chapter is narrative, and then every other chapter is an interior monologue from the sheriff, from Bell. They get rid of a lot of his monologues.

[Griffin Newman]

You only really do the open. And then some of it he says out loud in dialogue. But that's the only voiceover.

[Leslie]

Right.

[David Sims]

They basically. They strip out dialogue wherever they can. They like.

[Leslie]

Yes, they do.

[David Sims]

At least possible.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is another interesting thing of this movie, because they are perhaps. They are certainly in the conversation of the best dialogue writers alive.

[Leslie]

That's the thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Their movies are so talky.

[David Sims]

Certainly.

[Griffin Newman]

I think their films have always been consciously. I think they're never really defining their characters through their language in a traditional way. Because one of the things I think they're so smart about as dialogue writers is that their characters are usually using dialogue to lie.

[Leslie]

Yes, exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. If not for, like, devious criminal means in, like, saying who they want to Be. Or how they want people to see them.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And they've always been defining through action. And what's interesting is. Is the clash between the action and the words. Right. I think in terms of why this movie just connected with everyone, there's something about them pulling back the dialogue a bunch.

[Leslie]

Yes. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That I think sometimes their detractors would get distracted by the tap dancing of the verbiage and going like, who are they trying to impress?

[Leslie]

Well, this is the thing, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Like, is this too clever?

[Leslie]

Yeah, this is the thing. Like. Like, I am struggling with this because there are a lot of reasons I would call this a masterpiece. A lot of reasons. But the last two times that I've been on this podcast and I've gotten the opportunity to talk about masterpieces, I. And I've always felt this way, that a masterpiece has to have something personal about it. And these, like, Minnesotan Jewish guys.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

It's like. Like, if I'm. If I have that criteria, which I made for myself, by the way, so I can absolutely break that. But what I will say is that what this movie does, because the script is so faithful to the source material, is that it shows you what phenomenal filmmakers they are.

[Griffin Newman]

Exactly.

[Leslie]

It does not. There's nothing covering it. There's nothing going like. But also we smoothed it over with this thing and like, we created a character that represented that. And like. Like, you know, and then. Cause you could say Barton Fink. You could say Fargo. You could say Miller's Crossing, for fuck's sake. Like, there's also an argument for a serious man. For sure. Like, so I think. But what's so energizing about it, and I think it's exactly what you're saying about Everywhere one was like, their back. Is that you really get to see. My fucking God.

[Griffin Newman]

They can shoot a movie better than anyone else.

[Leslie]

Better than anyone else.

[Griffin Newman]

Basically from the beginning.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, just right out of the way from the start.

[Leslie]

Boom. Gorgeous shot.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Leslie]

I was sheriff of this.

[Griffin Newman]

Boom.

[Leslie]

You know, like, it just some of.

[David Sims]

The most amazing, like, shot making in this movie. It's. Look, it's pretty. It's really pretty movie.

[Griffin Newman]

It's really pretty. It's all the pretty.

[David Sims]

It's a dramatic part of the country. Looks really cool.

[Griffin Newman]

There will be Blood Wind cinematography this year.

[David Sims]

And there's nothing wrong with that win elsewhere. It's a genius.

[Griffin Newman]

But let's acknowledge the thing that happens. Happen. Double Deke Deacons was nominated against himself. Jesse James for Jesse James.

[David Sims]

The thing with so this, I think, is.

[Leslie]

So then it splits the vote, I.

[David Sims]

Think, a little bit of that. It's like this.

[Griffin Newman]

No disrespect to Ellsworth, who, once again.

[David Sims]

He'S a great dp and that movie looks very good.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

That movie's also got some shot, Megan, but no Country, I think, is Deacons. You know, just like tweaking the knobs perfectly. Right. Like, it is not. Not a showy piece of, you know, cinematography.

[Griffin Newman]

Jesse James.

[David Sims]

Exactly. Jesse James is like. You're like. Every single frame. You're like, good Lord. Like, I'd like that frame to please, like, actually hang that in my house. It's an amazing looking movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Perhaps prettiest movie.

[David Sims]

Right. It's a bit much at times, as is everything in that fucking movie, which I like. I do like that movie, but. Right. I'm sure he split the vote against himself.

[Griffin Newman]

This should be his crown of himself.

[David Sims]

He should be winning with the Coens.

[Griffin Newman]

It takes another 10 years for him to win cinematography.

[David Sims]

Jesus.

[Griffin Newman]

For the first time. And then he won three in a row. It was the same thing they did to Lubezki.

[David Sims]

Ooh, I think he won four.

[Griffin Newman]

It was Blade Runner. In 1917.

[David Sims]

He won for Blade Runner 2049, which is an amazing looking movie that rocks. But I think at the time, people were like, kind of a bummer. He went for a sequel to a movie he wasn't the DP on.

[Griffin Newman]

But it was also like, guys, please, can we get this? Awesome.

[David Sims]

And then he won again for 1917. And that's a movie that is loud cinematography. Obviously, it's a single shot and all that. And it was this sort of technical achievement. And that was a fine win. But I. It's. You know, he should have won with the Cohen when they won Best Picture.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, it would have been.

[David Sims]

He's more tied to the Cohens than any other film.

[Leslie]

I agree. I agree.

[David Sims]

And this is a triumphant work that he made with him. But whatever. I mean, I don't fucking know. Maybe I should just go sit in a chair.

[Leslie]

No, I'm with you.

[Griffin Newman]

I have a chair. The one behind the microphone in the office is where we record.

[Leslie]

But here's my. Here's my. Here's what I would say about that. Here's why there's a possibility. This is why that he may not have won. Right. Yes. There are gorgeous shots in this movie. Yes. There are beautiful landscapes. Yes. There's, you know, a lot of what I would call, yeah, beautiful, showy shots. Right. And this is not my idea. It's actually from the YouTube channel. Every frame a painting. Great, great YouTube channel.

[David Sims]

Check those guys out there. Not that they need.

[Leslie]

Check them out. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

His video on specific Spielberg wonder. Well, that. But the Cohen's one where he talks about the way they shoot conversation.

[Leslie]

So he talks about shot, reverse shot.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[Leslie]

So he says, you know, this is how they work. Essentially. That's where they shine. Right. And Deakins in that video makes the point that with the Cohen he uses the long lens for the coverage of the character.

[Griffin Newman]

He is basically always inside the conversation. You're almost never getting over the shoulders. The camera is in between the people talking.

[Leslie]

It's in between the people.

[David Sims]

Sonnenfeld loved a wide lens and Deakins is the one who's like guys, let's do it.

[Leslie]

And I think that for example, the coin toss scene, as great as Friendo is in terms of dialogue, which by the way, that's what they shine at. Right. The. What really kills me in that scene is the framing of them.

[Griffin Newman]

The sense of space.

[Leslie]

The sense of space. You don't need an establishing shot that tells you everything about that space. You see how out of place Sugar is and you see how much Jean Jones lives in that world.

[Griffin Newman]

And there's something even haunting about Gene being in this very busy frame behind the counter. All the stuff hanging behind him on the wall and then the window behind him and the sense of kind of endless emptiness behind him.

[Leslie]

Yes, that's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

This constant reminder that these big action sort of moments in this film are happening in spots in between emptiness.

[Leslie]

That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's exactly right.

[Griffin Newman]

And so you're in the middle of nowhere.

[Leslie]

And I think that's my. My point about Deakins is that he just doesn't like in this film. He's doing perfectly what they do.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

Their editor is doing perfectly what they do.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is the editor. Who is them.

[Leslie]

Yeah, who is them? Right, right. The. The rhythm of the dialogue. They understand even if it's not what they quote unquote wrote, it is what they do best.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a good match.

[Leslie]

Yeah. So it just. Yeah. I wonder if that's why he just didn't have the. The, you know, the landscapey, beautiful. I just. I don't know if. But I agree that he should have won with them is my point. He did the. A apex of what they do. I also think understood the assignment, as the kids say.

[Griffin Newman]

I've said this in other episodes. I think.

[David Sims]

I do think he's aura farming. Anton Sugar is aura farming a bit.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't even know what this is.

[Leslie]

I don't know.

[David Sims]

What's the new things the kids say? It basically seems to mean like aura. Aura. Like a U R A. You know how kids are always saying that like people have aura. It's like. I guess it's just any scene in a movie where you kind of stand there looking cool. Everyone's like, bro, is aura farming okay? Like I just, I've been seeing.

[Griffin Newman]

Trying to get the clout for.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Establishing great vibes or whatever.

[Leslie]

Yeah. But like reaching out to a new audience.

[David Sims]

It's both praise and slightly derogatory, I guess where it's like, okay, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And just to be clear, we're trying to make our show catch on more with the tick tock generation.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Is Llewellyn Moss Sigma. Can we talk about this?

[David Sims]

I do. I do think I'm pointing.

[Leslie]

I'm like throwing myself off a bridge.

[Griffin Newman]

Having a Brad summer podcast over. Well, no, Chigurh is having a brat summer.

[David Sims]

He is. He's quite a brat actually. It would be funny if Woody Harrelson was like Chigurh is having a brat summer to like Steven Root or whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

I Two things about Deakins. One, he's better at shooting actors than anyone else alive. Period.

[Leslie]

Period. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's so much his background as a documentary cinematographer. Not being able to compose a block.

[Leslie]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

He just has a really good instinct of understanding exactly what it's like.

[Leslie]

I didn't know that about.

[Griffin Newman]

To be in relation to the performer to capture best what they're doing.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So there is that kind of very unshowy. Camera's always just in the exact right place to make everyone pop because basically every performance is good in a movie.

[Leslie]

That Roger, he knows that the thing that is going to be scary about that scene is not the camera.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[Leslie]

The camera is not going to make the scene scary.

[Griffin Newman]

He understands always that he's in service of the thing. Right. And then secondly, he is able to shoot inanimate things with. I was gonna say inanimate things but just non people. Things that are not faces.

[Leslie]

Things that are. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

With a sense of innate power and dread. Shot early on in the movie. Of the scuff marks left from the boot.

[Leslie]

These. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Of the sheriff that Chigurh has choked out with the handcuffs is just like one of the most striking images in this film.

[Leslie]

I agree. I agree. And. And it also is the moment, the first time I saw is the moment where it's like, get on board. Yes. This is the movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep. Yep.

[Leslie]

There's no Fake out.

[Griffin Newman]

Starting here.

[Leslie]

There's no. It's just. We're starting here. It's only gonna go. We're starting at 11. Get excited.

[David Sims]

I do think it's weird. There's no bloopers at the end. Like, he flips the coin. He's like.

[Leslie]

That was the mid-2000s, by the way. Yeah. For the.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Laugh is a highway. Whatever. Just, you know, every time he.

[Leslie]

This is the dawning.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Every time Deakins captures the. The. The key lock being shot through with the cattle gun. Do you know what I'm saying? Whatever. The cylinder.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

The cylinder of the key at the door.

[Leslie]

Jesus. Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And there's the one time, maybe it happens a couple times. The one time I remember distinctly where he quickly cuts to a shot of the impact the imprint left on the back wall of the hotel room.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And stuff like that is somehow like the most upsetting imagery in the movie.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

More than the stuff that is aggressively bloody.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Just to wrap up the Dossier, the Doer McCarthy did visit the set, but I think they basically just described him as amiable and gracious. Not like there to render judgment.

[Griffin Newman]

They talk about him coming to a screening.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Early on. And they heard him laugh a couple times and they went. I guess that means he approves.

[David Sims]

I mean, famously, that means the Cohen's like. To take.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

I've heard that from multiple people. I feel like someone just text us that. That like. Like they don't really give a lot of notes. And then you do the take. And if they're like. Then it's like, all right, I guess we're done. Wrap it up in unison.

[Leslie]

Moving on.

[Griffin Newman]

And does not need to be a funny scene. They just giggle maniacally if they like what's happening.

[David Sims]

So this is a crazy. Okay, this is interesting. Just behind the scenes stuff. So Rudin is in the final stages of his deal at Paramount when he gets the rights to this novel. Paramount is turning Paramount Classics into Paramount Vantage, which is now Paramount Nothing, Paramount Cowards or Paramount Maga or whatever Paramount's up to these days.

[Griffin Newman]

It was just so funny when it went for Paramount Classics, which was like, this is the most erudite version of our, like, archway.

[David Sims]

Right, right.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, it felt like it was the Paramount, like, gates framed by, like, flowers and shit and this, like, dainty, like, calligraphy kind of thing. And then it was replaced with like, fucking punk rock bar bathroom label maker. The sticker isn't even staying.

[David Sims]

It's curved vantage. Click, click. Anyway, so he will then move on to Produce films. A number of studios, including Post, Harvey, Miramax.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

To deal with this transition, he proposes that both no country for Old Men and. And There Will Be Blood, a movie he also executively produced, be set up as co productions of Paramount Vantage and Miramax.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, right.

[David Sims]

They have Miramax essentially being, of course, a Disney label in the dying days of that.

[Griffin Newman]

But isn't it. No country was Miramax domestic, Paramount overseas, and There Will Be Blood was the opposite.

[David Sims]

I feel like something like that.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know.

[David Sims]

What. No. Are you gonna say no?

[Leslie]

I just. I feel like knowing Miramax.

[David Sims]

Yeah, you're right, Griffin.

[Leslie]

Okay. Oh, you were. That's what it is. Okay.

[David Sims]

It was Miramax Domestics on domestic, on this and international and Blood and vice.

[Leslie]

Versa for I cannot believe you knew that.

[David Sims]

Also produced Darjeeling Limited and Margot the Wedding in 2007. So he's just working a lot of tours making. But making difficult movies like Darjeeling is a bit of a. A difficult swing for Anderson that doesn't go over perfectly. Margo is an insanely difficult swing for Bomback that goes over horribly.

[Leslie]

Horribly. Yeah.

[David Sims]

And is still. I feel like the movie when people are like, I like Noah Bomback. I'm like, Margot at the wedding. And there's the 5% of psychos who are like, oh, my favorite. And the others are like, I never saw it.

[Griffin Newman]

Or I hated it.

[David Sims]

I mean, freaking poison.

[Griffin Newman]

The rude and magic was that he was like a fucking mafia boss who was like, if this is what you want to make.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I will steamroll anyone who stands in the way.

[Leslie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I got you 100.

[Leslie]

It's a really good, good strategy.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

If you think about it, it's how.

[Griffin Newman]

He attracted the best directors because he was just like, you will be protected.

[Leslie]

It's actually like, you know, actually Netflix kind of did that in its early days.

[Griffin Newman]

It was, we're not going to give you notes.

[Leslie]

We're not going to give you notes. Just come in here and do it.

[David Sims]

And now they still don't give notes.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

The normal.

[Griffin Newman]

No, the Netflix thing was for so long, what is the movie?

[Leslie]

Super chill. And they're all about artistic vision.

[David Sims]

And then.

[Leslie]

Right.

[David Sims]

They like everything to look however it should look.

[Griffin Newman]

Exactly. And they never demand that every movie open overhead helicopter shot of the city, etc.

[David Sims]

Where they're basically like.

[Griffin Newman]

They have some numbers that tell them if that isn't the opening shot, then people won't finish their.

[David Sims]

Like Trader Joe's dinner on their table with their mug, you know, like they don't want to pay attention for 35 minutes.

[Leslie]

No, thank you.

[Griffin Newman]

The Netflix strategy versus the Ruden thing. I feel like the Netflix strategy was for years them being like, what is the script everyone else has turned down?

[Leslie]

Yes, we will let you make it.

[Griffin Newman]

Here with a lot of money and no notes. And then some of those came out and you were like, oh, I get why everyone turned this script down.

[David Sims]

No country. They write, by the way, just to point out, they write at the same time as a serious man and burn after reading. I think it's important to note that because it's like they hadn't made an original movie in a long time.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Right at this point. And it's not like this is them. And then they're like, oh, maybe we should. It's like they do have these original ideas cooking at the same time, but.

[Griffin Newman]

Also this period of, like, profound productivity for them. They. They start being like once a year.

[David Sims]

Guys for a little while.

[Griffin Newman]

This run of bangers that all came out of the same creative bubble.

[David Sims]

An interesting fact about this movie is that apart from Steven Root, I think everyone in it is someone they've never.

[Griffin Newman]

Worked with, first timer.

[David Sims]

And it doesn't feel that way. Everyone in it, you're like, oh, these feel like Cohen guys.

[Leslie]

That's why.

[David Sims]

And obviously they worked with Brolin again two times. Did they ever work with Bardem or TLJ again, though?

[Griffin Newman]

No. I feel like.

[David Sims]

Did they ever use Garrett Dillahunt again? He's another guy that feels like they would have used him like five times.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, he auditioned for Llewellyn 5.

[Leslie]

Llewellyn. Yeah, yeah, yeah, five times.

[Griffin Newman]

That's what I read. And he could not be more perfectly used in the place he is who should have been.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

It is also funny that he is also in Jesse James and kind of plays a very similar role.

[Leslie]

What happened with the. The Heath Ledger of it all?

[Griffin Newman]

They said he was their first choice, which makes perfect sense after Brokeback. But also I think it would have felt a little repetitive. I'm sure he would have figured out a way to make it a distinct performance.

[Leslie]

That's a good point. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But you're casting him off of the strength of the thing he just did really well, which is Cowboy, who doesn't say much.

[Leslie]

However, you know, you've got. You've got Joker in the midst of all of that, so.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it would be an amazing in between seen if he'd been in this.

[Leslie]

I agree with everything you just said. I just wonder. Yeah, I just wonder if that would have impacted it at all. Probably not.

[Griffin Newman]

Dark Knight comes out like eight, nine months after this.

[Leslie]

Oh, after this.

[Griffin Newman]

I wonder if he had said yes to this, if he would have been able to do Dark Knight. He said he turned it down because his daughter had just been born and he wanted to spend time with her.

[Leslie]

I see, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Which makes sense. And then after nine, 10 months, whatever, he accepts the Dark Knight role.

[Leslie]

It feels like everything landed where it should have happened.

[David Sims]

It's just unfortunate.

[Griffin Newman]

It's unfortunate, yeah, very much.

[David Sims]

Brolin famously was shooting Planet Terror, which he's really good in.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Really funny performance. I. He should do more of that. He does. He. He works a lot, I shouldn't really complain. And famously got Robert Rodriguez and Quinton Tarantino to help him with his audition tape. And the Cohen, when they got it set, said, who lit this? Not joking.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

They liked it how it was lit. They didn't like him. And they said no. And he said that, like said he thinks it hurt that he was like really big and he had this goatee for the role in Planet Terror and he thinks he didn't look right. But he was also just like, I don't think they liked me. Like it's fine, Like I wasn't vibing for them.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's talk about.

[David Sims]

But they could, couldn't cast this role.

[Leslie]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's talk about Brolin's status at this point.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Leslie]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[Griffin Newman]

He's like a teen actor, a son of an actor.

[David Sims]

He's a Nepo baby. His dad is a pretty famous actor. I feel like maybe people don't put enough respect on James Brolin's name anymore. But he said the Cohen's would certainly know who he was.

[Griffin Newman]

But he was kind of like an A plus B list star, if that makes sense.

[David Sims]

He was very similar to James Garner to me. Like where it's like a big TV actor and a sort of solidish.

[Griffin Newman]

Had the absolute leading man vibes.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Never totally clicked his movies.

[Leslie]

Handsome. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Was famously very close to being James Bond. He was almost the only American James Bond.

[David Sims]

And of course he's been married to.

[Griffin Newman]

Barbra Streisand for a very long time. Right. But then.

[David Sims]

Which I'm sure is normal as well. We're talking about so many normal.

[Griffin Newman]

He has a super normal. He has this run of like thrashing and Goonies and all his teen performances. Right. Where he has just kind of like out of the box charisma as a kid and then talks about that he hit a point where he Was just like, I want to get good at doing this. And tried to really, like, yes, absolutely. Learn how to be better. And then yet was still stuck in kind of like a true B movie. Fourth lead, zone.

[Leslie]

Famous. It's a Jessica Lang moment.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[Leslie]

Right. Like, it's a King Kong. Hold on a second.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[Leslie]

Like, one moment.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep. You know, in 2000.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But he was stuck there for a.

[David Sims]

While as, like, the guy where you're like, hey, hollow man, bash this guy's head. What's the matter, girlfriend? You're like, it. I can't wait for the Invisible man to waste this guy.

[Leslie]

This guy.

[Griffin Newman]

He always had kind of like, he's gonna die.

[David Sims]

Like, second.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Fake lead.

[Leslie]

Get him out of here. Right.

[David Sims]

And then he's in, like, nothing.

[Griffin Newman]

Like into the Blue.

[David Sims]

Right. It's the. In 2004, apparently, he's in Male Linda. Melinda. I don't remember that. I did see that film. 2005, he's the villain in the Paul Walker Jessica Alba shirtless film into the Blue. One of those films where it was like, what's the plot? And they're like, shirtless.

[Griffin Newman]

Shirtless.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

2006, he was in the Dead Girl that didn't win. And then in 2007.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

He's in Grindhouse in the Valley of a Law, the movie that Tommy Lee Jones gets an Oscar nomination for no country for Old Men and American Gangster. And he's also in the Coen Brothers.

[Griffin Newman]

Short film to each His Own Cinema.

[David Sims]

To each His Own Cinema. The next year, he does W, where he plays my favorite president.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Besides Established. Besides the later one. Not Obama. Not Joe. No, it is Joe. It's actually Joe.

[Griffin Newman]

We're back.

[David Sims]

And Mill, which he is phenomenal.

[Griffin Newman]

He's fomo. His first Oscar.

[David Sims]

Yes. His own only. And then after that, he has kind of a weird are you a star? Thing where it's like Jonah Hex.

[Griffin Newman]

It doesn't work for a long time. Was one of those actors Black three. Like, he's good in it, but the.

[Leslie]

Old boy remake, so misguided, you know? Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

He felt quietly like box office poison for a while, where anytime he was in a supporting part, it worked, and anytime a movie was pinned on him, it was a disaster.

[Leslie]

It was a disaster bit.

[David Sims]

But he's a working actor. Yes, he's a working actor. And then he played Thanos, and it was one of those things where you're like, that feels like a bummer for him. And, like, Marvel's not going to pull that off. And.

[Leslie]

And then, God bless him, they pulled that off.

[David Sims]

And he pulled that off.

[Leslie]

It was when Ruffalo was cast as Hulk. Same sort of feeling, right. You're like, what?

[Griffin Newman]

Why is he doing that?

[Leslie]

Why is he doing that? And then fantastic. And then fantastic.

[Griffin Newman]

To your point, it's the fact that he pulled it off, that people were like, yeah, he actually gave a real performance here.

[Leslie]

He really did.

[Griffin Newman]

The only reason this is working, I.

[David Sims]

Mean, he has this run that's like Inherent Vice.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Sicaria. Which he's great in. He's one of the 10 people trying to climb Everest.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Hail Caesar. Which he's great. Only the Brave. He's phenomenal in that movie. And then the two Avengers movies. This is Sicario sequel. And then the Dunes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Which he's wonderful in.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I think he's figured out his thing now, but.

[Leslie]

And now he's doing quieter lately.

[David Sims]

But now he. He's in Zack's movie. He's in the new Knives out.

[Griffin Newman]

We're old about that.

[David Sims]

He's in the Running man, the Ed movie. And he's in this Ridley Scott movie called the Dog Stars. That's like a post apocalyptic movie with, like Jacob Elordi and him. I'm sure that'll be fun.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

It's just funny how they're like, fine.

[David Sims]

Ridley Scot shot it like two days. He just set up a bunch of cameras in a circle and was like, go on.

[Griffin Newman]

That moment in 2007 where suddenly it was like, Josh Brolin is in five movies this year working with all major.

[David Sims]

Directors who made a phone call.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Like what we were talking about in our Mulholland Drive episode. Like, why did Hollywood just all decide this guy. And then you see the performances and you're like, this guy figured his thing out.

[Leslie]

That's the thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. This wasn't like some concerted press effort.

[David Sims]

Roland famously was like day trading money.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

All the way up to making no Country.

[Griffin Newman]

Was married to Diane Lane. Was mostly at this point, the guy who stands next to Diane Lane while she's having a second act true sort of revival. Yes.

[David Sims]

He says he had a great unfaithful.

[Leslie]

Was like 2001.

[Griffin Newman]

He's sitting next to her at the office.

[Leslie]

Yeah. So five years he's sitting next to her. Yeah.

[David Sims]

I love that movie so much when she's so horny that the wind just fucking blows her across the street. It's one of my favorite movies of all. All time. That is a movie where people are like, oh, isn't it bad? And I'm like, watch it again.

[Leslie]

Oh, it is.

[David Sims]

Sit your ass down.

[Leslie]

Oh, it is a fantastic.

[Griffin Newman]

The horny version of Sandra Bullock being so racist. She falls down the stairs and crash.

[David Sims]

It truly is. That is what happens in crash. You can't convince me otherwise. She's so goddamn racist. The floor is like, down you go.

[Griffin Newman]

These people.

[David Sims]

I truly said to my brother, I remember on next, I was like, am I supposed to take away that she was so mean to her maid? The maid, like, cleaned the floors too hard and that's why she fell down the stairs.

[Griffin Newman]

She's so racist. She lost her center of gravity.

[Leslie]

Oh, my God, you guys, you're gonna kill me.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm gonna have a heart attack. But Brolin talks about that he had the clarity of just being like, I know this is my part. I, like, see how to do this.

[Leslie]

Yeah, this is me.

[Griffin Newman]

And I've said something in me that I haven't gotten the chance to show. And this is the vehicle and I have to figure out.

[Leslie]

I gotta figure out how to get it. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Then he. He said, like, I would. I had a very good agent who was very. Who wasn't like, he's perfect for the part, but was just like, can you just meet him?

[Griffin Newman]

And especially as we're not finding someone else, they could wait back and hold back six weeks later, go, like, you want to take another look at Josh?

[Leslie]

We have to. Yeah.

[David Sims]

He puts it is finally. They're like, fine, fine, fine, fine, fine. He can come down. He says, I started a few scenes, I came down and met them. There was really no reaction in the meeting. I walked out being like, well, it was really nice that I met the Cohen. I'm a big fan. And by the time he got home, he got. Got the part. You know, he was told he got the part. Ethan says, like, they had just talked to both Tommy and Javier that day, and he comes in and that combo helped them be like, yeah, these three guys circling each other, those make sense to us.

[Leslie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David Sims]

And I think there's also the kind of like, it's weird. It's like Tommy Lee Jones is a major star, but obviously he's not exactly like a guaranteed box office guy at that point. No, no, but he's a major star.

[Griffin Newman]

But, like, fucking man of the house had come out to pin drops two years before this pin drops.

[David Sims]

Javier Bardem is like a respected actor who is certainly not a box office guy yet.

[Griffin Newman]

He's got one Schnabel Oscar nom under.

[David Sims]

His for Before Nightfall, but this is.

[Leslie]

His first English speaking movie.

[David Sims]

He's in Collateral in, like, that one scene. But that's about it. He is largely a Spanish act.

[Griffin Newman]

During the press tour for this, he did not speak much English.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And his Oscar speech he gives is a minute and a half, and half of it's in Spanish. Like, it was that thing where you were like, oh, he kind of learned this phonetically.

[David Sims]

I've never. Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

He's.

[Leslie]

When I did Acolyte Li Zhengzhou did the entire show phonetically. Yeah.

[David Sims]

So interesting.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

That might have helped his performance in a weird way, just because, like, Jedi are so remote and his character's obviously kind of, you know, where it's like. That's sort of an interesting thing to hand an actor.

[Leslie]

Yeah. He also just.

[David Sims]

This probably seems hard, though.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

Yeah. But I think with Javier in this movie, what's great is that he's. Again, it helps. Like, he. He doesn't need to speak until he needs to speak.

[Griffin Newman]

And there's also something about the unease of the language.

[Leslie]

So everything is. Well, sugar, as you know. And you're probably about to read it. Cormac wanted to create a character that was ethnically ambiguous.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Leslie]

You didn't read it and imagine a human person. Right. So I think that was also. And I don't know if this is ignorant on their part, the Coen brothers, but it seemed to me that they certainly wanted someone that looked ethnically ambiguous. Like, what. You know, I. And what accent is that? Which is why the phonetic.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, I think so, too. That is good.

[Leslie]

You know, like the fact that. Yeah. It. When he spoke late, much later, I think actually it was. I told them, I don't. I don't like violence.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Leslie]

And I don't drive.

[David Sims]

He.

[Griffin Newman]

He told me. That's what he said, that he loved the Coen brothers so much. He said yes to this, even though he was like, I don't get this. I don't get qualified.

[Leslie]

I have no idea what's happening. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

This isn't in my wheelhouse.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But he. He has one of the most unique faces. Absolutely. I feel like he has talked about, like, thank God I broke my nose at a young age.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, I don't think I would have been a movie star.

[Leslie]

Oh, have you guys seen Haman? Haman, by the way?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. You have one of the wildest looks anyone has ever had.

[Leslie]

You know, Crazy.

[David Sims]

There was this thing in the 90s as I was a burgeoning cinema fan, and I realized there was this sort of. These Spanish films in the 90s.

[Griffin Newman]

90S.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Involved insane amounts of sex and Nudity. I don't know if you guys are aware of this.

[Leslie]

Yes. Insane.

[David Sims]

Biggest luna. One of these guys who'd be like, titties. You know, like, I was just gonna be, like, pulling that off the old library shelf.

[Leslie]

Yeah. But it is very funny to see him. Yes. You know.

[David Sims]

Well, first of all, that's young Javier.

[Leslie]

Yeah, that's him and her.

[Griffin Newman]

That's him and Penelope many years before they actually think.

[Leslie]

And he's, like, 24.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

But actually in that movie, I think.

[David Sims]

Very, like, skinny and sexy in it.

[Leslie]

Exactly. And it's. He's very aware of how his physicality is defining his character. Right. Like, there's a lot of shots of his cock. No, no, sorry. His. In. In underwear. Sorry. To be cleared for the viewers. Yeah. His bulge is. Is heavily featured. He's very much objectified by some of the characters in the film. You know, specifically. You know, if you don't know the plot of this movie, you don't really need to know it. It's. Everyone's having sex.

[David Sims]

Yeah. It's like a relationship that turns disaster.

[Leslie]

Yeah. Like, it's. Whatever. So it's called Hamon.

[David Sims]

Hamon. Which, of course means Ham.

[Griffin Newman]

Ham.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Leslie]

But point being, I think that was kind of his first.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

Role.

[Griffin Newman]

That was his calling card.

[David Sims]

That's his calling card. And then he does Live Flesh, which.

[Griffin Newman]

Rocks with Rosie Perez.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

He does the Before Night Falls, obviously, is the big breakout. And then the Sea Inside. Another fucking paralyzed guy movie. Sorry to be like painting with a broad brush. That and diving bone. Butterfly.

[Griffin Newman]

But there's something to.

[David Sims]

He's very good. That's a movie where you were like, he's very good in this.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, the movie is fine.

[David Sims]

It's a. It's a solid cut.

[Griffin Newman]

I think the whole Bardem thing is that, like, his energy, his look, his voice are all constantly, like, teetering on this very, very delicate edge between terrifying, sexy and silly. Absolutely right. That's what it is. Like, it takes, like, one degree for him to swing so wildly the other way.

[Leslie]

That is what it is.

[Griffin Newman]

And it doesn't make sense that he can kind of hold all three.

[Leslie]

There is something. It's gonna sound weird, but there is something that is silly about the sugar absorbent. I think that's something very small. It's like 5%.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

But if you. As an actor. Well, the only thing that's said about him in the book is that he doesn't have. Have a sense of humor.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

There's no description of him. There's no like, inside his head, what's going on? He thought, blah, blah, blah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

Or he does. It's a little bit. But I think you have to have a sense of humor to play him.

[Griffin Newman]

I agree. And I also think that's so much of the styling which they talk about. They. They.

[David Sims]

The hair. I was just going to say the hair is like.

[Griffin Newman]

And they put him in the outfit. They do a camera test. And he's like, is this a prank? Are you kidding me? Why would I look like this?

[Leslie]

That's the Five Princess.

[Griffin Newman]

And he was like, that's a silly haircut. They were laughing hysterically. I thought they were bullying me.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I thought they were setting me up for failure. But the thing he does smartly is understand the funniest thing he could do is not play the look at all right?

[Leslie]

And he does not. He lets it speak for himself.

[Griffin Newman]

He knows.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And that's the sort of, like, conflict within it of just. I cannot get my head around this guy.

[Leslie]

And they found nothing. They found the hair from a photograph of a guy in, what, in the 70s who's at a brothel.

[David Sims]

It's a book that Tommy Lee Jones had, supposedly. I just love the idea. Like, hey, fellas, want to. Want to read my book?

[Leslie]

That is a great accent.

[David Sims]

Fantastic violence. He does hate violence, but doesn't drive. He doesn't drive, but he would. He would, apparently. Like, he says, like, I managed to drive myself into the park to become evil, to become death. When the camera stopped rolling, I would bed the co. Bed the Coen brothers. Like, all right, all right. Can you get the gun out of my face? And said. He said they would just be giggling. I mean, which is just like the story of Reactors.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

The haircut. Yeah. Supposedly a photograph of a guy in a bar at a Texas border town in 1979. Their haircut is acting by itself. Bardem says you don't have to act weird.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? Yeah. Don't play the hair.

[David Sims]

No, you have. To me, he looks like. And this is the thing. They thought about it. He looks like a fucking monk or knight from, like, the Crusade.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

Like, that's like what people look like in paintings from the 10th century.

[Griffin Newman]

I feel like they also joke about Dorothy Hamill, but that's part of it of, like, it just looks like he.

[David Sims]

Walked out of another dimension.

[Leslie]

That's. That's what it is.

[David Sims]

That's just what it is. Where you're like, this is a human person and he does bleed and shit. Like, it's not like he's The Terminator, Exactly.

[Leslie]

I agree.

[David Sims]

But yeah, you are just like. Is this someone from. Yeah, just like another world.

[Griffin Newman]

Here's like. Here's.

[Leslie]

He's like an alien.

[Griffin Newman]

Here's the thing. I will admit that makes me sound stupid, because I am stupid.

[David Sims]

You're a big stupid idiot.

[Griffin Newman]

Excuse me. I'm a little stupid idiot. I'm very particular.

[David Sims]

You're physically small.

[Griffin Newman]

You're stupid.

[Leslie]

When I speak to you, I mean, the first thing I think of is ignorance.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, absolutely. First and foremost, I remember watching this movie for the first time. Time. And getting to the gravestone at the end and being like, oh, this was a period piece.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

They did.

[David Sims]

It's 1980. Yeah, they do.

[Griffin Newman]

Every time I watch it the first.

[Leslie]

Time I felt that too.

[Griffin Newman]

I still get so caught up in it, I forget. It was not set in 2007 until the Vietnam line, which somehow I just didn't clock the first time. I wasn't doing the math on the.

[Leslie]

Production design is astonishing.

[Griffin Newman]

Exactly. And they're not playing period that hard. Right. And it's like the earmarks are the lack of certain technology, whatever, what have you. Right. But there is something kind of timeless about it. And yet Shigur is the only character who is kind of styled specifically of that to the 70s in a way that is then so jarring.

[Leslie]

Yes, yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Why is this guy, like, a weird amalgamation of trends, you know?

[Leslie]

Oh, of trends. Yes, yes, yes. I see what you mean. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And not like high fashion trends, but you're like. No, I got like a Canadian tuxedo thing going on.

[David Sims]

He's got very 70s boots.

[Leslie]

Yes. Oh, yeah. The costume designer talked about how she wanted the boots to feel like a weapon.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

Like knives, basically.

[David Sims]

And she.

[Leslie]

She said she was like, no one else in the movie is wearing this style of boot.

[David Sims]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

They're all kind of flared out. Yes.

[Leslie]

It's got a heel to it, sort of.

[Griffin Newman]

But there's the moment late in the film when he's trying to extract the bullet from his leg. And they cut to him sitting in the hotel bathroom. Right. With his legs crossed. Gorgeous. Using tweezers to try to pull out a bullet shard. And he's like, bench down. And he looks hot. But also he's not posing in a naturally menacing way. Right. There's something as if he is posed as if he is painting his own nails.

[Leslie]

He. This is what I mean.

[Griffin Newman]

And he's like, slouched over.

[Leslie]

And I think it starts with Himon Jamon. Right. Is that. I think this is a man who Understands that a lot of acting is the neck down.

[Griffin Newman]

He's got a tremendous amount of body. He cuts just a big figure.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And he's really smart about knowing how to subvert what you expect him to do or how you expect him to play a scene without just feeling like he's being flippant, you know, or like contrarian or whatever.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's like.

[Leslie]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Somehow the fact that he's not playing that scene tough makes it tougher. Somehow the fact that he's like.

[Leslie]

I agree.

[Griffin Newman]

Slouching over in a way where there actually are tummy rolls rather than later when he stands up in the towel and you see him looking pretty cut. Makes him look more sexual.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But also makes it more otherworldly where you're like, it's even weirder to see this haircut on a naked body, you know? David.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Can I identify your single biggest issue?

[David Sims]

You. You might as well call me out.

[Griffin Newman]

I think I finally. It's been 10 years of the podcast, about 15 years of friendship. I think I finally nailed.

[David Sims]

Tell me, what is it?

[Griffin Newman]

Your butt. You're too much of a yes man. Like the Jim Carrey comedy.

[David Sims]

Okay. Yeah. Okay. So Zooey Deschanel's hanging around. Maybe.

[Griffin Newman]

Absolutely absolute Bradley Cooper. You need to start being more of a Dr. No. James Bond's first film entry.

[David Sims]

Of course. And we all know who played Dr. No. And you're going to tell me right.

[Griffin Newman]

Now if you're still overpaying for wireless, it's time to say yes to saying no. So maybe you actually need to combine yes man and Dr. No @ Min Mobile.

[David Sims]

Wiseman, just by the way.

[Griffin Newman]

No, of course. We all knew that I was saying that at Min Mobile. I was just ramping up to that. The favorite word is no. Dr. No, played by Joseph Wiseman. No contracts, no monthly bills. No. No overages, no hidden fees, no bs.

[David Sims]

Oh, my goodness. And. And, and what? What's the yes that you get? This.

[Griffin Newman]

Here's why I said yes, as in yes man, the Jim Carrey vehicle to making the switch and getting Premium Wireless for $15 a month.

[David Sims]

Wow. I know why you did it. Because it's $15 a month at Mint.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, yeah, sure. Yeah. You can ditch overpriced wireless and they're jaw dropping monthly bills, unexpected overages, and hidden fees. Jaw dropping is kind of like a thing for. From the mask. The different Jim Carrey movie plans start at $15 a month amand, as you said. But all plans come with high speed data and unlimited talk and text delivered on the nation's largest 5G network. That's 5G's. You use your own phone with any Mint Mobile plan and bring your phone number along with all your existing contacts. I mean if I needed to cell phone provider, I would be jumping over to Mint.

[David Sims]

Exactly. Are you ready to say yes to saying no? Make the [e-mail] check. That's mintmobile.com check. Upfront payment of $45 required equivalent to $15 a month limited time new customer offer for first three months only. Speeds may slow above 35 gigabytes on a limited plan. Taxes and fees extra. See Mint Mobile for details.

[Griffin Newman]

I was worried that I was going to say Robert Wise instead. That's why I didn't have the courage. I was like, I think it's just of Wiseman. But I, I, I was worried I was going to flip. David? Yes, I wear glasses.

[David Sims]

Ah to see.

[Griffin Newman]

I do in fact wear them to see.

[David Sims]

I used to wear them as an affectation when I was a child.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I did the same thing.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I pretended they were real and then people found me out to be a fake. And then because of that, when I started actually needing glasses and wearing them for real, all my friends crying wolf, convinced that it is still just an affectation. But it is not. I, I assume to see my vision gets worse by the minute. It feels like sometimes but I just stopped wearing mine. Yeah. How's that going for you?

[David Sims]

It sucks.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

See this is the thing, Ben.

[David Sims]

What do you mean? Why'd you stop? I just got lazy.

[Griffin Newman]

You gotta get your butt to Warby Parker. You're the one who's always telling me the value. Value. Throwing a good fit, right?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And feeling good, it affecting your whole sense of self. Right. And Warby Parker's like throwing a fit for the face. Yeah, it is it, it truly it immediately improves your quality of life if.

[David Sims]

You'Re on board with glasses.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Warby Parker use premium materials. They design frames in house. They've got silhouettes, colors and fits made to fit every face.

[Griffin Newman]

I love the frames themselves. But let me, can I just talk about the experience because David, I went through it again recently.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

I had an old pair of glasses that had been my mains for a while break on me. After several years of loyal service. I salute them and I, I went and I was one stop shopping. I said it's been two years. Let me get new vision test, get your eye exam, get examined, new people prescription eye pressure test. And then immediately while I'm waiting for the results, I'M going around, I'm looking at frames, I'm trying them on and there's a flexibility there. Right. Folks who just want cool sunglasses, you can get them cheaper at Warby Parker than a lot of other places. But sometimes you see a sunglass frame you like and you go, can I actually get this in clear vision lenses? Can I get this pair meant to be readers as sunglasses you can try on all sorts of crazy stuff. This is my new thing. I'm into sunglass clip on. So you just got the one pair.

[David Sims]

Sure. Pull the Chris Farley meme. Warby Parker has over 300 locations to help you find your next pair of glasses. You can also head over to warbyparker.com check right now to try on any pair virtually. That's warbyparker.com check. Warvparker.com check check.

[Griffin Newman]

And if people want to flip a grip Griff style, I'll just say I'm currently rocking the toddy wide frames and tortoise shell.

[David Sims]

Tommy Lee Jones, obviously, I would say is the most Route 1 casting decision in this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Like we're going to have Tommy Lee Jones play a Texas sheriff who's a little over over it.

[Griffin Newman]

And yet I, I think this performance was greeted as a like, welcome back.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And it's an amazing performance. They, they wanted this character to be tart. Like they didn't want like a sort of good old boy essentially. And that's what TLG TLJ is so.

[Griffin Newman]

Good at, but also what he's good.

[David Sims]

At from like the, he's from where it's set. They're like, he's the real thing for the region. He just checked every box. And then they'll, you know, there's some interview where someone's like, is he scary? And Ethan says he's a big pussycat. And Joel says, let's just say he doesn't suffer fools gladly, but he is fine.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I also famously, he sued Paramount and got like a fucking ton of money from them because they fucked him on some contract thing for this movie. Yes. They gave him like $15 million.

[Griffin Newman]

That kind of.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yes. But that was not a Cohen's thing.

[Griffin Newman]

But I think, right. He. He waived his quote for some back end that then they tried to withhold from him.

[David Sims]

Mess with him.

[Griffin Newman]

I was going to say, I think a lot of people they could have cast would then try to play, as you say, said, like tart, rough.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Haggard, you know. And what's smart is they like hire Tommy Lee Jones. That's his default setting. And then they're sort of saying, like, can you make this your most emotional performance ever?

[Leslie]

Absolutely. Absolutely.

[Griffin Newman]

And that's the magic of it.

[Leslie]

It's really magical from the get go.

[Griffin Newman]

There's something disarming about starting a movie inside Tommy Lee Jones's head where he's basically admitting to the audience, like, I. I just don't even know anymore.

[Leslie]

I mean, if you think about it about like, you know, him in pop culture, obviously he's acted in a gajillion things since the Fugitive, but like, that's his, you know, you look at him, that's what you think. Right. It's a defining role in many ways.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

You think high status, you think, you know, barking orders. You think, yeah, of course, like, you know, being the good guy at the end, but almost sort of reluctantly. Right. You know, but like, I killed. I killed my wife.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

I don't care. You know, like, it isn't even. I don't believe you. Yes, you did. It does not matter to me because I'm the Anton Sugar of this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

That line reading wins him the Oscar. From that moment on, every time he is cast, they are either leaning into that or trying to subvert it. Yeah, right. Like it, it becomes the unavoidable comparison point of. This is, as you said, this is what people have in their mind when they think about Tommy Lee Jones.

[David Sims]

I think so.

[Griffin Newman]

And he's not a guy who transforms himself, so he's going to be used differently, but you're never going to be like, that was Tommy Lee Jones.

[Leslie]

I also think I'm just realizing this in this moment, that actually it does narrative of the movie. Because there's this understanding that he, in his iconic role, tracks down the bad guy, quote, unquote. Right. Like, he is excellent at that. So you do continue to think, even subconsciously, he's going to catch this guy.

[Griffin Newman]

And not only that, you start with his interior monologue and then he's basically not on screen for like 20 minutes.

[Leslie]

Oh, is that true?

[Griffin Newman]

And his screen time increases as the movie goes on. But. But he's pretty backloaded. So it's important to be like, here's the big movie star. You know who this guy is.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You're setting expectations based on him being in a movie with this kind of setup.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

We're pinning him at the beginning. You're never going to forget about him.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You're keeping track of him the entire time, even when he gets.

[Leslie]

That's a really good point.

[Griffin Newman]

Elusive from the story.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, because we're going to have to get back to him at the end and he needs to have been felt the whole time.

[Leslie]

Yeah, he. He's. Yeah. Incredible performance.

[Griffin Newman]

And of course, right. He doesn't get nominated for this. He gets nominated for in the Valley of Allah, a movie that's completely forgotten. It is the same year.

[David Sims]

It's not, in my opinion, a mavening movie, but he is, unsurprisingly, very good in it. And it was kind of a combo nom.

[Griffin Newman]

And everyone knew that Bardem was basically walking away with supporting actor. So I think they didn't just quickly.

[Leslie]

Who was just a couple. A couple vibes of who the other guys were for.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, so lead that year is Daniel Day Wins.

[David Sims]

He wins.

[Leslie]

Yes, right there.

[David Sims]

Wins. I'm a man to my boy.

[Leslie]

I mean, that is cunt.

[David Sims]

George Clooney and Michael Clayton. Did you see that interview he gave about it? That was so. It was on one of the talk shows where he says, like, the thing Clooney says, like, the thing I get the most praise for from, like, people now is the final scene of Michael Clayton. Just drive. Right? And he's like. The reason I agree with them is that entire fucking scene we were shooting. Have you seen this interview?

[Griffin Newman]

It's incredible.

[David Sims]

Like, what? People on the street were going, hey, George Clooney. They were seeing it in the window because it was just filming live.

[Griffin Newman]

And they were like, we had one take of that. It was like one mag. We weren't going to get a second shot.

[David Sims]

Trying so hard not to laugh the entire scene.

[Griffin Newman]

And people are like, what is he thinking of? Like, the blankness on his face is so profound. And you're like, that guy's just trying to hold his together.

[Leslie]

Hey, Georgie, there's a. There's a story like. Like that about Dairo and. And Robin Williams in Awakening. My favorite story, which I'm not going to say on this podcast.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay. I was going to say, oh, you can do it. But the listeners can't say. Yeah, the listeners can look it up.

[David Sims]

Wait, wait, what is it again, Robert?

[Leslie]

Robin Williams. It's Robin Williams and De Niro in Awakenings. It's a similar vibe.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a sequence in the movie in which De Niro has not yet awakened.

[Leslie]

That's correct.

[Griffin Newman]

So he has a man trapped inside a body.

[Leslie]

And we've got bystanders, wanders.

[Griffin Newman]

He's back of a car, you know, screaming, hey, Daenery.

[Leslie]

You know, like. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And he's just keeping his stillness.

[Leslie]

That's correct.

[Griffin Newman]

This character Cannot react.

[Leslie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And then, because David asked.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

A guy yells out, hey, Bobby, you still like that black?

[Leslie]

Can you imagine?

[David Sims]

And De Niro's just like, no.

[Griffin Newman]

De Niro breaks.

[David Sims]

Oh, okay. That guy Williams was like.

[Griffin Newman]

It was the only time I ever saw him.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Where he had to be like, yeah, I did.

[Leslie]

It's so. It's.

[Griffin Newman]

It's. You got me there.

[Leslie]

It's dark, but it's a. It's a fucking. It's a.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a story.

[Leslie]

We'll say. It's a story.

[Griffin Newman]

We'll say that guys got me.

[David Sims]

The other nominees for best actor that year is a very strong year because Viggo Mortensen, Eastern Promises, which is another one where you're like, is this like a lizard from Jupiter? Like, you know, this guy shows up, is just like. I cut off hands and feet and you're just like. I.

[Griffin Newman]

Perfect description. Believe you.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Oh, boy. And then Depp in Sweeney Todd, which is this sort of divisive performance. Him trying something.

[Griffin Newman]

It is.

[Leslie]

It's him. Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

And then supporting totally normal guy.

[David Sims]

Just. It's the most amazing. We're seeing so many normal people and.

[Griffin Newman]

We love talking about supporting actor.

[David Sims]

We do. We've never done it.

[Griffin Newman]

No. It's never.

[David Sims]

Philip Seymour Hoffman and Charlie Wilson's War. He had just won an Oscar. But that's a showy supporting performance.

[Griffin Newman]

So, I mean, the one scene.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

It just lights up.

[David Sims]

Tom Wilkinson and Michael Clayton, arguably a worthy winner. Incredible performance. Obvious.

[Griffin Newman]

Casey Affleck, Jesse James.

[David Sims]

Yes. Total category fraud. He's a lead. But. But an astonishing performance, but really, really good performance.

[Leslie]

Another normal. Totally normal.

[David Sims]

And hell, Holbrook and Into the Wild, which is a career nom. But a great performance.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Like, Right. And I think was seen as. It might be his year in a gold watch, kind of thanks for a great career. But the sugar was just like. It felt like.

[Leslie]

It doesn't sound like the strongest year to me in terms of competition for him. That. That was sort of the question behind the question. I also just think, like, was anybody giving him a run for his.

[Griffin Newman]

No. I. I feel like he basically had this lock from the moment the film premiered. And I also think. I remember saying to people when this came out, like, this is the most iconic villain. Villain that anyone has created since Hannibal Lecter. I agree. Such a. Kind of, like, perfect, like, excellent. The voice, the look, the behavior agrees. Just this character. So fucking sticky.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And I said to a friend in film school, like, people are going to be parodying this character for 20 years. It is to my great relief that I feel like what happened is one year later, the Joker comes out.

[Leslie]

Yes. Oh, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And that becomes the villain that basically everyone is sort of trying to chase for.

[David Sims]

Would be funny if, like, dank memelords started. Like Anton Chigurring overall, you know what I mean? Like, if he became there, like, I.

[Griffin Newman]

Think it is to culture's great gain that somehow.

[Leslie]

That's a really good point.

[Griffin Newman]

Got spared the memeification that would have kind of flattened him a little bit based on the Joker, like nine months later just becoming the thing. And then also, like most other villains after that are sort of trying to iterate on what Ledger Ledger did.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And it still makes Bardem in this feel like this very unique, bizarre lightning in a bottle thing.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Also with the benefit of not being like. And then Hopkins played Lecter three more times, you know.

[Leslie]

Yes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. We suddenly throw that person in the lead and it's like, no, thank you.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Because I just still. I watch this and I go like, where the did this come from?

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And it still feels fresh to me.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So wait, back to The Dusty Kelly McDonald. Amazing in this.

[Leslie]

Unbelievable.

[Griffin Newman]

So good.

[David Sims]

Kind of a swerve casting wise, obviously, to get a little bit like a.

[Leslie]

Helena Bodham Carter fight club situation where you're like the girl from Trainspotting.

[Griffin Newman]

The most Scottish woman alive.

[Leslie]

Just dropped in the middle of the. Yeah. This, like, she's.

[Griffin Newman]

She's so. She's excellent. And just like, talk about perfect characterization in few words. Their first exchange on the couch of the trailer. Right?

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Where he's like, you keep talking like that, I'm gonna have to take you back and fuck you.

[Leslie]

Yeah, yeah. And then she's like, big talk, big talk.

[Griffin Newman]

And then he just sits there and continues to drink beer. And you see it on her face of like, keep it up. I wish he would.

[Leslie]

I know. I'm like, let's go cut to that. Not the fucking water.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Leslie]

Kelly McDonald. Much, much better than the character in the novel.

[David Sims]

I would agree with that.

[Leslie]

If there's any real kind of.

[Griffin Newman]

And the character in the novel is. Is much more overwritten.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Mother in law is Beth Grant, the iconic.

[Leslie]

Oh, the.

[David Sims]

You know, always good at playing a baddie.

[Leslie]

Absolutely. I'm starting to doubt your commitment to sparkle motion.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

And that is iconic behavior.

[Griffin Newman]

And is the pageant head in Little Miss Sunshine as well, having the freak out.

[Leslie]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Is very good at that.

[Leslie]

Steven Root being Steven Root.

[David Sims]

That's the root of the matter.

[Griffin Newman]

Is he the actor they have worked with the most? I was sort of trying to do a little count in my head.

[David Sims]

Who? Steven root.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm like McDormand Buscemi.

[David Sims]

But I mean, like, McDormand Wright is obviously up there.

[Leslie]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Root's in so many of them.

[David Sims]

He's in, let's see. So many.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So many.

[Leslie]

Remember him in True Blood.

[David Sims]

Fantastic. In True Blood.

[Leslie]

Isn't he incredible?

[David Sims]

Yes. I mean, but he's always good.

[Leslie]

He's always good. But that was a moment where I was like, oh, I was unfamiliar with your game.

[David Sims]

Right. He'll do something that's another string to his bow. You're kind of like, oh, I thought you played this kind of guy. This kind is O brother. His first Cohen's, though.

[Griffin Newman]

Is that possible?

[David Sims]

It looks like it is. And then you have. Have lady killer.

[Leslie]

He's great in that scene.

[David Sims]

No, conjure. He is. Scruggs.

[Griffin Newman]

Scruggs. Okay. Four. Yeah, four.

[David Sims]

I don't know. That was a cursory glance.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

McDonald. One thing that's interesting about her, though, is that she's sort of. Because she's so peppered in the movie, she said she would, like, shoot for a day and then be off for like two weeks.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Then shoot for another day, be off for another couple weeks. And she mostly just like hung out in South Texas where she's like.

[Griffin Newman]

So the energy of the character who's just sort of like. I don't totally know what this whole movie is going on here. Right. Something's happening.

[Leslie]

I have no reference for, you know, privy to. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, the other notable performance to call in this movie is like, they kind of save Woody Harelson from the wilderness with this film.

[David Sims]

It's the start of.

[Leslie]

Yeah, it's a nice little Janet Lee. Right. Like, it's a little like, oh, here comes the. He's dead.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, like 10 years earlier, you're like, he would have played Llewellyn.

[Leslie]

That's true.

[Griffin Newman]

And he definitely felt a little dinged at this moment. I remember even see him in the trailer and going like, Woody Harrelson. That's interesting.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

They think he has that just from like major Peck and paw energy. And they're like, he gives us. Yeah, like, you know, this. Yeah, whatever. Like that, that thing.

[Griffin Newman]

It's just like a perfect three scene arc. Like there's an entire mini movie.

[Leslie]

Bubonic playing.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. What Compared to what?

[David Sims]

The Bubonic Plague film costs about $30 million. Much of the film was shot in New Mexico, but also Texas, as we mentioned, Marfa, Texas and Marfa, famously kind of an arty town. They got a lot of, you know, boutique Y, little galleries and stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

The Prada store.

[David Sims]

Right, of course.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

I forgot about that photo.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank God.

[David Sims]

And right. And of course, there. There Will Be Blood is shooting at the same time.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And there is a time they're shooting Brolin in, like, remote West Texas and across the, like, horizon is Paul shooting like oil on fire or whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

It's insane, right?

[David Sims]

It's very cool.

[Leslie]

Insane.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. But, yeah, no, I mean, this. We. We've talked about a bunch of the scenes out of order, but you're really just dropped into the middle of it. Tommy Lee Jones's head. And then the cop trying to call in about chagrin immediately kills him. And then you're out on the road and you're seeing the first use of the cattle gun. Is that the right term?

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's a cattle prod or a bolt pistol or whatever you want to call it.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, just such an incredible choice. Yeah.

[David Sims]

It's right out of the book.

[Griffin Newman]

Going back to the power of objects. Right. This idea that he takes this thing that is obviously menacing and dark. It is a thing we use to like.

[Leslie]

Yeah, it's like a supervillain villain weapon.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

You're like, what the fuck is that? But yet in farming, it's used in a. Like. Well, this is just the nature of my job.

[Leslie]

And it's also. Yeah, there's a. There's sort of a quotidian thing to it. And also, people are cattle.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? Right.

[Leslie]

They're animals.

[Griffin Newman]

There is an innate dehumanizing in the fact that he is using this to kill people, even though that is what is meant to do. To take lives.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And. And just the. The eeriness of him telling the guy to stand still. Still.

[David Sims]

A thing to note about this movie is that it sounds really good.

[Griffin Newman]

Now all skip leave say.

[David Sims]

The go sounds good, but skip leave say. Of course, their sound editor really takes some pride in this one. They did a lot of on set sound rather than sweetening stuff in post. Leslie. Sorry, this is complete tangent. You did make the Acolyte.

[Leslie]

Please, please help me.

[David Sims]

When you're doing lightsabers and the acolyte has a lot of, like, a lot of them.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You know, I just watched Dan Door. No lightsabers. Which is fine. Like, it doesn't need any lightsabers.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Like.

[Leslie]

No, no, it's not. Yeah.

[David Sims]

What do they have now? Do they have like a full lightsaber or Is it like still like a glowy stick where like a lot of the work's thing done, you know, like how much.

[Leslie]

Yeah, it's.

[David Sims]

How complicated is it?

[Leslie]

It's the. So for our show, we were doing an immense amount of fighting and specifically woo influences. And so the action choreographer Chris Cowan and I were creating sequences where the lightsabers were used very quickly and swiftly, the way they are in the prequels. Right. The prequels obviously utilize an enormous amount of VFX to create the lightsabers.

[David Sims]

Those suckers.

[Leslie]

Yeah, yeah. You guys, are you familiar.

[Griffin Newman]

Familiar with the. Never seen him, have you?

[Leslie]

Yeah, 1999.

[Griffin Newman]

Never.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Leslie]

Ewan McGregor. We've talked about the guy from Strange bonding. So for our show it was very different. I won't get too in the weeds about it, but when I went to the. I said, okay, I want specific lightsabers that can do that, that can be light and thoughtless with that quickly. And I also want a lightsaber that has a shoto that you can unlock and pull out.

[Griffin Newman]

Am I incorrect?

[Leslie]

Lost their mind. They were like, what are you talking about? We cannot create lightsabers that are that light, that are that lightweight. My understanding, we cannot do that. We cannot do the lights. I also said I want the lights within. Like, I want it practical so that you can actually see the light on the actors faces. The show to was a big deal because they were like, it doesn't make sense for the handle to be that long. So they. These are guys, by the way. These are guys that I respect. They are doing their job. But I did have to essentially change the way that they had been thinking about lightsabers for, you know, the Disney reboot slash television.

[Griffin Newman]

Am I incorrect in thinking that in the 70s and 80s they were. Were basically using a lot of reflective tape.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

To be able to light them and get the glow. And then extensive post work to do the coloring and to actually give it the sort of power it needed. But that way there was a kind of light source and reflective off of it.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And in the prequel era, it was more just sticks that were emanating no light and the light was entirely opposed effect.

[Leslie]

And therefore you could have faster.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, right.

[Leslie]

Battles.

[David Sims]

Famously, Ewan broke a lot of the sticks.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And you wanted there to actually be interplay in camera between the actors and the weapons and the sticks had to.

[Leslie]

Hit each other over and over again.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Leslie]

So these were not like we're, you.

[Griffin Newman]

Know, that is interesting.

[Leslie]

So everything. So here we go. All the lightsabers are much, much Heavier than they can be. For the actors, the first round is actors going and action choreographers going. These are too heavy. We cannot. The poor actors are like, I can't listen to this. Like, let, let alone, you know, except for Manny Jacinto who was like, I just, I don't know what the fuck was going on in terms of how, how deeply he was able to, to adjust and create that character and, and do that much stuff. But so sorry, long story short, we, we had to essentially create lightsabers that aren't usually lightsabers.

[David Sims]

I just.

[Griffin Newman]

David, ask.

[David Sims]

You can't say this. You can't agree with, with me. And that's fine. You can't say anything on this. But like a lot of the post Disney Star wars stuff has not had good lightsaber fighting.

[Leslie]

Agreed.

[David Sims]

Okay. She can't agree with me.

[Leslie]

No, I agree. And part of it is because the lightsabers are so heavy.

[Griffin Newman]

This makes sense, truthfully.

[Leslie]

Like, that's what it is.

[David Sims]

The sequel films, the lightsaber fights are very kind of like, kind of old fashioned medieval. Like.

[Leslie]

That's right.

[David Sims]

Swinging these heavy swords.

[Leslie]

That's exactly it. They're medieval. They're not ninja or samurai.

[David Sims]

And the characters are removed from the helmet. Is public.

[Leslie]

But original trilogy is samurai. But the. It's not. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

In original trilogy, they barely move. Right.

[David Sims]

Big swings.

[Griffin Newman]

Everyone moves way too much. And then you got this. But then it's this tough thing of like what exists between those two poles between Alec Guinness standing planted and just swinging one time.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And you and McGregor being able to do like back flips and like basically becoming devil's.

[Leslie]

And I want to say like, these guys, Guys, I'm not talking, you know, about how they do their job. It's and, and create their lifesavers. It's just they're like, this is how they. They're just incredible. They're just like, this is how lightsabers work.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

You know, like. And they were very, very accommodating and willing to go with what my vision was. And so I will always be grateful to them for that because I think it really overstepped. What they're understanding was I just think.

[David Sims]

The acolyte was the first post Disney Star wars thing I saw that had good lightsaber. I'll just say it. Yeah. And you know, some of this post Disney Star wars stuff has not emphasized that at all. And that's fine. But other stuff, the lightsaber fighting has really bummed me out.

[Leslie]

Yeah. Yeah.

[David Sims]

And I know it's hard it's hard. It's hard to choreograph.

[Leslie]

Well, you got to, like, do all those types of things. You know, the actors have to. You know, I was like, we were talking before, I was not willing to do any face replacement. You know, so a lot of these people learned their. A lot of these actors learned, you know, not the wire work, obviously, and the, you know, but. But they did a lot.

[Griffin Newman]

But it. Right. You're. It's a tremendous amount of work to figure out how to solve problems that you're creating. Right.

[Leslie]

That's filmmaking.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, that's our job.

[Leslie]

Like, that's exactly. Oh, my God. I've never.

[Griffin Newman]

If you want to do it right, if you're like, it needs to be. Be this. And if I'm planting my feet down and saying, it's got to be this, then people are circling back and going, here's all the reasons. That's impossible.

[Leslie]

That is exactly what my job is. My job is solving problems created.

[Griffin Newman]

So here's my question off of this. I. I think a good on ramp back into the sound of no country, which I have a point to make about. How weird is it to be sitting on set watching extended lightsaber fights and just hearing like. Like, obviously so much of it is the sound of sound effects, which are done in post. And when you're there watching it and you're like, that looks great. Does it always fundamentally feel a little silly when they're just going like, well, because what.

[Leslie]

And I. Listen, I appreciate the compliment, and David and I so glad that you had that experience with it, because that was my intention.

[David Sims]

And I also think it was one of the only things that really engaged with the prequels in a meaningful way.

[Leslie]

That's what I was like. Again, you know, thank you.

[David Sims]

Big fan of the acolyte over here.

[Leslie]

Thank you.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank you very much. Original fantasy.

[Leslie]

A lot of work went into that, David. A lot of, like, Legends work went into that.

[Griffin Newman]

But that's weird.

[Leslie]

I thought it was kind of a.

[Griffin Newman]

You've never seen a Star wars movie?

[Leslie]

It was. Well, of course I have. I haven't. I just, you know, a lot of the disappointment that I felt was that, you know, there wasn't enough acknowledgement of that, David, if I'm being honest.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[Leslie]

You know, I just kind of thought, you know, I put a lot of work into. Into this and into canon and. And involving, like, video games, which, by the way, are canon and, you know, creating.

[David Sims]

No, it's a weird world. It's a weird world.

[Leslie]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And the cartoons.

[David Sims]

But Maybe we can bring some back.

[Leslie]

Yeah, exactly.

[David Sims]

Weirdly, are all canon.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Leslie]

And so there were a lot of like legend stuff that I dropped in and you know, like the tracker character is an alien from that, like. Anyway, point being. And we were engaging in those prequel kind of, you know, all of that. So I was a little disappointed that the show didn't get like a larger sort of, you know, what's the word? Like pat on the back for that, you know, like, I don't think people need to like fawn over it. But just. Anyway, point being. Cause you asked me about. I think that's how this started. The dull sound that you were asking about that, I think, because the choreography that Chris Cowan created and then the stunt team and then first team was so astonishing that I very rarely.

[Griffin Newman]

You were so impressed thinking about.

[Leslie]

I was just so impressed. Like, I was just like, jesus, this looks like the Matrix. This looks like Wujia. This looks like Crouching Tiger. Like, this is so. It was very goofy.

[Griffin Newman]

But then when you put the sound on top of it, it becomes magical.

[Leslie]

Exactly. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

On top of something that already was impressive.

[Leslie]

Right. And the thing that I think is so impressive about the sound in no country is that it's exactly what you're saying, David. There is not this reliance in post production production to create the sound of New Mexico.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

You know, they are doing it right there, I'm assuming. Right. Like the foley is all.

[Griffin Newman]

I want to say one final thing about Star Wars.

[Leslie]

Fine, go ahead. Fine.

[Griffin Newman]

That there is always this response to any modern Star wars thing of, that's not what we want. If they could just do this, we'd all be happy.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And of course, anytime that happens, there is a contingent of people who are very loud who are equally angry.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And go. Not that. This.

[Leslie]

Yes. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And I have contended with friends of mine who are Star wars fans who will say things like that. Like, I genuinely think, yes, it is somewhat unsolvable. Right.

[Leslie]

Yeah. I would make great Star Wars.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I would say relationship to Star wars is so intense in that way.

[Leslie]

And I think that's why it's hard for them to reach out in terms of an audience. Because so many people who are not Star wars fans, you know, I would say to them, like, well, okay. Before I started writing, it's like, okay, well, why are you not a Star wars fan? And they would say, well, I just don't know enough about the stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[Leslie]

And I was kind of like, God, that is so the opposite of. Of 1977.

[Griffin Newman]

And there is this Weird battle between. Is the goal here to make something for everyone? Is the goal something here to make something for people who don't think they like Star Wars. Is the goal to make something for specific subsections of fandom.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And all of it gets this weird intense response.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

There has not been any ability to allow Star wars to become a thing that can be prismatic.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And not have to represent all of it at once. Because the magic of those original movies is like holy. It's everything all at the same time.

[Leslie]

That's exactly right.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is impossible to replicate because it didn't exist before then.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

It was lightning in a bottle. Right. And all of this exists in the wake of it. The clearest distillation of this I have ever seen. And then we will get back onto no country for a time long men is the thing where they discovered the 70 millimeter print of the original theatrical release of Star Wars. And they were like, we didn't think this existed. And they screened it in London at the BFI and Kathleen Kennedy showed up and she was like, we've been searching for this. We're so happy. And they screened it and like five different journalists wrote reviews where they were like, it looked like. And these are the exact people for 50 years have been like, why won't they give us a theatrical cut? Get rid of the special editions. They just gave us theatrical. Be happy. This sucks. They're just like dog.

[David Sims]

There are certain things. Cuz you'll watch those despecialized editions of you where you're like, oh, that the X wings look like that. I kind of got used to them looking like that. You know. There's certain things where you're like, I don't need there to be a Looney Tune playing out in the background with a cartoon undeniably improved. Right. But then there's. Right.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[David Sims]

That's some of the sort of like little bits of cleanup. You're like, oh yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But now that dialogue has shifted to like what we want is someone cutting some of George's taste.

[David Sims]

Say it. I'll say it. I say it. I always say it. This is just what they want is to be 12 again.

[Griffin Newman]

That's whatever.

[David Sims]

So do I. Yeah.

[Leslie]

So. Same. Same.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Here's what I'll say about the sound of no country. The other big part of this and.

[David Sims]

Why my allowance was like £2 a week or whatever. I mean when I was 12.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I don't think I was getting up to much.

[Griffin Newman]

No. It take. It took five years to buy a CD rom. I remember doing that math, like, getting a catalog and being like, how much do CD ROMs cost?

[David Sims]

Nightmares.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

Oh, God, that's true.

[Griffin Newman]

I. I get a Anton pocket full of change every week.

[David Sims]

I was getting, like, £2.

[Griffin Newman]

I'd say to my dad, I'd be like, isn't my allowance like 45 cents? And he'd be like, I don't know. It's what I have on here.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

The day you remember to ask this movie has no score until the end credits. That's the other part of it stands out even more because this. The sound. Sound. The noises. And especially a movie that has less dialogue than their films usually have.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

The sounds are the soundtrack, but they.

[Leslie]

Must be augmented in some way. Right. You know what I mean? Like, they're not. So it's orchestrated, but that's true.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, there's no music leaves. Say magic is that he knows how to just over crank everything just a little bit.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

To make it feel hyper real.

[Leslie]

Yes. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And in the vacuum of stoic characters, lack of Carter Burwell's school, that becomes even more evocative.

[Leslie]

Right. I see what you're saying. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But it is a movie where you're just like, everyone walks differently. You hear and feel the differences in everyone's footsteps.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, and every surface they're standing on, it's just like, incredible, incredible shit. And it's part of what makes this movie, like, eerie in such a stained way is, you know, I think they show it to Cara Burwall and he's like, this doesn't need music.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

They were not intending it to not have a score. And he was like, I think the best thing I can do here is not do anything.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I'll write something for the end credits if you want, but, like.

[Leslie]

Yeah, I didn't realize that. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

There's a sustained tension from being like, why isn't this being cut by anything else?

[David Sims]

Race the rudders.

[Griffin Newman]

Raise the sails.

[David Sims]

Raise the sails.

[Griffin Newman]

Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over. Roger.

[David Sims]

Wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution?

[Griffin Newman]

Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title, and more. Start converting your B2B audience today.

[David Sims]

Spend $250 on your first campaign and.

[Griffin Newman]

Get a free $250 credit for the next one. Get started [e-mail] Campaign terms and conditions apply. David.

[David Sims]

Okay, okay.

[Griffin Newman]

I'll be very quiet.

[David Sims]

Oh, I'm. I'm used to it.

[Griffin Newman]

Producer Ben is sleeping.

[David Sims]

Oh, hy Hay boy is getting Some getting, some with multiple dashes. What's he sleeping on?

[Griffin Newman]

He's sleeping on one of the new beds we got from Wayfair for the studio.

[David Sims]

Look, apparently we need to talk about how when you hear the word game day, you might not think Wayfair, but you should. Because Wayfair is the best kept secret for incredible and affordable game day finds.

[Griffin Newman]

Makes perfect sense to me.

[David Sims]

Absolutely.

[Griffin Newman]

And just try to. David, just if you could please maintain a slightly quiet. We don't have to go full whisper. I just want to remind you that Haas is sleeping.

[David Sims]

I mostly just think of Wayfair as a website where you can get basically any.

[Griffin Newman]

Anything. Yeah, of course. But Wayfair is also the ideal place to get gameday essentials. Bigger selection, created collections, options for every budget, sl price point you want to.

[David Sims]

Make like a sort of man style. Okay, fine. Okay. All right. Sorry.

[Griffin Newman]

David, you have like, basically a football team worth of family at home. You got a whole team to cheer up.

[David Sims]

This is true.

[Griffin Newman]

You need cribs. Your place must be lousy with cribs.

[David Sims]

I. I do have faint hunting beds.

[Griffin Newman]

I have cribs, sconces, chaise lounges.

[David Sims]

I'm low on sconces. Maybe. Maybe it's time to pick up a few.

[Griffin Newman]

This is the kind of thing that would make your home team cheer.

[David Sims]

Look, I'm just going to say that Wayfair is your trusted destination for all things game day, from coolers and grills to recliners and slow cookers. Shop, save and score [e-mail] that's W A Y F A I IR.com Wayfair every style, every home.

[Griffin Newman]

David, there's only one shame to this ad read.

[David Sims]

Don't weigh cozy.

[Griffin Newman]

There's only one shame to this ad read that I didn't find out about this in time before. I already purchased coolers, grills, folding chairs, patio heaters, recliners, bar wear, slow cookers, sports themed decor, merch for my favorite teams and more. If only I team Cleveland Browns, of course, Fonte Macintosh no matter what.

[David Sims]

Draw two back no matter what.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, that's the end of the app.

[David Sims]

No country for old man. What do we want to say about it that we haven't been saying already? We've gone for two hours.

[Griffin Newman]

You talking about the. The ethnic ambiguity of Chigurh as a character, Right?

[Leslie]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

There's something in hiring a Spaniard in a western set in Texas and then basically giving him like Tim Burton baby makeup on top of how weird his styling is in the hair and the Outfit and everything.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And just being like, man, this guy's wearing a lot of dark colors for, like, brutal, son.

[Leslie]

It's very true.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm like, very image on my iPad right here. And you're like, they, like, pancake him with paleness right on top of his natural skin tone. And then this, like, deep redness around his eyes and his lips.

[Leslie]

Oh, I didn't even think about that. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That also makes it feel like, is this guy a ghost? Like, how is he not getting something sunburned?

[Leslie]

That's true. Yeah. There is this, like, otherworldly thing to him, which we've already talked about. But I think, like, in terms of the thrust of the narrative, which I think we're, you know, going to chat about now, is like, hopefully. No, but meaning, like, I think, you know, there has been this online debatey idea that Sugar is, you know, Satan is the. Is the personification is Joe Black. You know, it's like the personification of Jeff. Death.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

Jeff.

[Griffin Newman]

Or Jeff.

[Leslie]

You know. No, you guys, please make that the title of this personification of Jeff.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. I. I go back and forth every time I watch this. And whether I think he is, if not supernatural, at least explicitly kind of allegorical, or is he actually meant to be processed as a real human being?

[Leslie]

I think the ending says human being. And I agree with you that it's al. Allegorical.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. It's somehow holding both simultaneously.

[David Sims]

Like, Chigurh. Here's my thing. The movie begins with him getting arrested and strangling the deputy. The deputy, like, sits him down and, like, you know, so. Right. The big thing in this movie is it's like this country, it's just not for old men anymore, if that makes sense. And it's Tommy Lee Jones basically just brushing against evil or whatever, but also just brushing against a world where he's just like. I don't know where to begin again with this. I don't know how to. This isn't like crime like that sheriffs deal with where it's like, hey, why'd you do that to that guy? Well, he stole my. All right, well, you can't do that. He even shares that his. His grandfather and his father were both sheriffs and they used to not even wear a gun. Right, right. Like that. It's like you. And like, everything about Tommy Lee Jones's character, it's like he knows everybody.

[Griffin Newman]

This can be reason.

[David Sims]

He knows everybody. He knows everyone's name. Like, you know, when he's at the diner, he knows the name of the waitress. When he sees Llewellyn's car. He's like, I know this car. This is Llewellyn's car. I'm like, you must. He must be in charge of, like, a thousand acres of land. Like, it's like deep south Texas, like, you know, but nonetheless, like, he's whatever, you know, he's like, basically trying to sort of, like, keep an eye on the community.

[Griffin Newman]

He has the exchange with Garrett Dillahunt. I think it's when they go to the first crime scene and he goes. So it seems like they died of natural causes. And Garrett Dillahunt says, like, there are like 40 gunshots here. And he goes, well, natural in relation to the line of work they were in.

[David Sims]

Right, right.

[Griffin Newman]

The idea that this guy is, like, not numb, but it's like he's seen it all.

[David Sims]

But the. The great line that I think is in the trailer where, like, Dylan's like, do you think he's got any notion of this sort of. People are chasing him. He's like, he ought to. He's seen the same things I had. Right.

[Leslie]

And it's left an impression on me.

[Griffin Newman]

But this guy is increasingly going like, this is not something I understood. Understand There is something happening here that feels like emblematic of a cultural.

[Leslie]

Yeah. I do think we need to keep moving forward, obviously. But in the book, it's very. It's explained later on that he's a veteran.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Leslie]

So in a way, saying, like, this level of violence, I can't understand. I'm a little bit like. But you can, you know, like, he can.

[David Sims]

But it's also something he's so haunted by.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Leslie]

And the desertion and all of that.

[David Sims]

And he's just like. And Right. In the book, there's this specific memory he has of this terrible thing that happened during the war. And, like. But in this, it's just like, what happened? But we don't even know. But, like, a drug deal was going to happen and something went wrong. We don't know what.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. There's a shootout that loans.

[David Sims]

And they all murdered each other.

[Griffin Newman]

Hunting.

[David Sims]

Leaving behind an incredible amount of drugs. Yes. And a ray of guns.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Quite a lot of guns. And it's one of those things that, like, no one is. Nobody cares that this happened. That makes sense.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Everyone is basically, like. Basically some version of a cost of doing business thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

You know, natural cause. Right. Yeah. And Llewellyn is foolish enough to try to skim the money.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And. But, like, it's like, you don't feel like Sheriff Bell is like, I'll solve this.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Right. Like, he almost immediately, he's basically just like, I know Llewellyn's gonna die. I'm gonna try and find him.

[Griffin Newman]

I think Brolin's first line of dialogue in the movie is he's, you know, slowly surveying the situation. He finds the dying guy. He finds the bag. He's sitting down at the tree next to this dying guy. Or. No, that guy's fully dead, right?

[Leslie]

Yes. Oh, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And he opens the bag, he sees the money. He lifts his head up and then he goes, yeah. And it's such a good piece of writing that this guy is like, of course it's a bag of money.

[Leslie]

And claims that he improvised that.

[David Sims]

That rock.

[Griffin Newman]

That makes sense. And then similarly, when he wakes up in the middle of the night and it's like, yeah, you know, to go get the water. This guy's kind of silently in this monosyllabic conversation with himself.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

About, like, of course I got to do this, or of course this is what would happen.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I think, as you're saying, this is the kind of thing that Tommy Lee Jones has seen before. What's. What's activating him isn't, I've never seen this level of violence before. It's. This doesn't make sense to me.

[Leslie]

Well, I think.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's. I think that there's this clash internally between. Chigurh is killing so many people he doesn't need to kill, Right?

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's like he's trying to. Tommy Lee Jones is trying to solve this as a guy trying to clean up loose ends of a crime gone wrong. And yet Chigurh is also kind of behaving like a serial killer.

[Leslie]

Yes, he is.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's like, if a guy is a professional, why would he be this slopp?

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I think that's sort of what is unspoken of, like, it doesn't make sense, the level nature of the violence that is unnecessary.

[David Sims]

Right. And like, the Woody Harrelson character who shows up later feels like a more old school, whatever you want to call it, contract killer, fixer Jimmy, I'll Get It Done. Right. Where he tries to solve the problem of being like, can you just. Can we just fucking figure this out?

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Can we be gentlemen about.

[David Sims]

Give Me the Money.

[Leslie]

Like, let's get over it. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Sugar seems to have some weird, weird, you know, like, you know, code in his brain.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Because, like, why does he kill Kelly McDonald?

[Griffin Newman]

He doesn't.

[Leslie]

Well, he said. He just said that he was going to he claims that he told Llewellyn that he was going to.

[David Sims]

Right. But it's like, like, obviously the money is not a problem anymore. She doesn't fucking know anything.

[Leslie]

Yeah, no. And so.

[David Sims]

And, like, he has to go out of his way to do it.

[Griffin Newman]

So many of the people he. Cattle, guns. He doesn't need to kill them in order to get what he needs out of it. And then there are other people. They're not stopping him.

[David Sims]

But then there are other people he lets live.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And one time he flips a coin. But other times he just clearly has this moment of, like. Yeah, I mean, whatever. There's this woman in the hotel where he tries to get information. She's like this great, like, love her great character. She's, like, perfect. She looks like she's, like, painted into the floor. You know what I mean? She's just this, like. She just sort of swivels around like she's like a costume character at a theme park.

[Griffin Newman]

I was gonna say she's an animatronic robot that can't stand up.

[David Sims]

Yeah. But she's almost. I'm not giving out information. She's almost, like, intimidating, like. Like him in this weird way. And he almost respects her at first. Yes, I think he fully respects her. He's like, of course, I could kill this woman. But that actually might be a problem.

[Leslie]

Did you not hear what I said? I think, too, that she's, you know, it's when. I don't know, you guys. I don't know physics. I didn't know we were going to have to. But it's like, you know, force meets a movable object.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

So in a way, like, scientifically, he can't continue. I mean, Gene sort of folds right away. Right. He's just like, you know. And she's like, get the fuck out of here.

[Griffin Newman]

Which, like, disarms him. That Jean doesn't have more pride or defensiveness.

[Leslie]

Yeah, that's true, Sugar.

[David Sims]

We don't even know who hires him. But we assume it's one of the cartel.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

And I assume the other cartel or someone else are the. Is the people who've hired the various Mexican gangsters that eventually do kill Llewellyn. Like, I don't think they're in league. Maybe they are. I have no idea. Sugur gets the money.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, there's also the Steven Root Harrelson contender.

[David Sims]

They. Right, right. I don't know who they.

[Leslie]

I have no clue.

[Griffin Newman]

Me.

[David Sims]

Someone mentions, like, did you hire a bunch of me Mexican gangsters? And, like, they're like. Yeah. So, like, I guess this like the threat. And Shigur is like, I am the instrument for this. You know what I mean? Like, he has. He does get the money, which I guess is the goal.

[Griffin Newman]

Uhhuh.

[David Sims]

Right. That's the fundamental thing that wanted of him. He's the only person who figures out that it's in the duct. Right. This all happens off screen, essentially, but that is what happens.

[Griffin Newman]

Which. Another great job of him.

[David Sims]

Not necessarily the.

[Griffin Newman]

The trails in the dust in the vent for later. That's where he hides it.

[Leslie]

Oh, God.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

The whole thing, like the tent poles and stuff. It's just exactly what you said. It's like you learn about the characters by what they're doing.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

You know?

[David Sims]

Yeah, that's. Well, right. Exactly.

[Leslie]

He's an idiot for going back with the water, but, God, that vent thing was smart.

[Griffin Newman]

And you establish practical, like.

[David Sims]

Because he's like a welder, which they don't really establish him, but, like, that is.

[Leslie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You. You establish earlier that Llewellyn's. Or not Llewellyn Chigurh is going to use the coins for the screws on the vent so that later you can just cut to a shot of coins on a desk table.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And know what it means. Like, that's the shit in this movie that. When I was 18, I was like, holy fuck. Is shit filmmaking where you can, like, build up a language where then like, 40 minutes later, you cut to an insert shot of inanimate object.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Go. Like, I understand exactly what just happened in the last 20 minutes without a line of that a lot.

[Leslie]

Oh, God.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

So, right. Like Llewellyn, he's kind of stupid for going back with the. He's stupid to take the money to. I would say he doesn't really. Opportunity knocks. I know, but he takes the bag and he doesn't think that hard about it. He probably should search the bag or get the money out of the bag and put it in something else, dump it out, make it. It's like there's like there's like 20 dead people. There's not like two dead people.

[Griffin Newman]

No, there's a lot.

[David Sims]

There's so many vehicles.

[Griffin Newman]

There's a.

[David Sims]

And so he, like, clearly is kind of overwhelmed by which I would be too. He's like, I'm just gonna go home and maybe like, you know, my wife.

[Griffin Newman]

But also not fuck my wife. Make a joke about my wife.

[David Sims]

I think he fucks her.

[Leslie]

I think he definitely fits her.

[Griffin Newman]

Interesting. I. I also think.

[Leslie]

I mean, her face I think says it all at the. She's like, you know, got that little smile.

[Griffin Newman]

But I view that as her being disappointed that he's not gonna follow through on what he's saying.

[David Sims]

I think he's going to.

[Leslie]

I think he looks at it. We're moving on.

[Griffin Newman]

I think, unlike a lot of Cohen idiots who get in over their head and refuse to acknowledge it. Right. He's constantly feeling the pressure of, right, am I in too deep? Right. Yeah. Versus these guys who are just like, I'm going to get this right. I'm going to make this all work. And it also is. The guy lives in a trailer, but he is not set up with a pressure like, say, William H. Macy and Fargo, where it's like, this guy needs the money now. Where it's.

[David Sims]

He could still live his backstory. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

It's this sense of opportunity, but it's not a. Like, I can't turn this down.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Or at least that is not explicitly said to us, which also makes it this game for him of, like, is this worth the squeeze?

[Leslie]

I actually didn't realize, like, how similar he is to other until you just said that. Like, even Lebowski, it's like, I'm getting pulled into a thing. I don't know. I just wanted my rug back. Yeah. That's really interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

And I think they love when it's a confident moron, which he isn't quite. He's like, not the smartest guy, but he's smarter than a lot of their protagonists. And he also is more scared than a lot of their protagonists. Right. Even though he is a fairly stoic man, you're feeling the tension of him in his situation, not knowing if he's going to be able to pull things.

[Leslie]

This off when they sick.

[David Sims]

He doesn't pull it off, by the way.

[Griffin Newman]

He pulls the screws. Tightening.

[Leslie]

Yeah. By the way. Just spoiler he does when they sick the dog on him and he's swimming through the thing and then he shoots him. That was the kind of what you were saying about the tracks being. That was the moment for me where I was, like, masterful. Like, as the sun's coming up, all of that is timed so that by the time he shoots the dog, it's.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Yeah. It's just like, exquisite.

[David Sims]

Unload the final bullet. Get load it back. Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Leslie]

Beautiful.

[Griffin Newman]

You saying that TLG. TLJ's character is coded as a veteran. It's also interesting that Brolin is as well, but in, like, wildly different wars.

[David Sims]

Yes, Brolin. Served in Nam. TLJ served in World War II.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. So they both have a certain mentality and instincts and resources that come out of that experience, but in like wildly different situations that would have formed their role.

[David Sims]

Tommy Lee Jones is also part of a quote unquote righteous war.

[Griffin Newman]

Exactly.

[David Sims]

Like fought evil. And Josh Brolin's like, I was sent to a terrible place where I suffered, which to what end the experience.

[Griffin Newman]

Right now I'm in a trailer.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And you know, I came back and everyone thought that sucked. I mean, there's the moment, obviously, where he has the bond with the other NOM veteran who like lets him go through because he's.

[Griffin Newman]

Who doesn't want to let him through because he's worried he's a Mexican. And then he's basically able to flash the NOM thing.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Which I could do that.

[Leslie]

In the book, he says, just in.

[David Sims]

A cool movie way.

[Leslie]

In the book he says, you can't go to war like that about Vietnam. You can't go to war without God. I don't know what is going to happen when the next one comes. I surely don't.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a guy who just quietly is sort of like, world doesn't really make sense. And I kind of got a shitty hand without being self pitying.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is why I think he sees a bag of money and it's like, not, don't I deserve this?

[Leslie]

No. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But like, is there any reason for me not to. To try?

[David Sims]

Right, right.

[Griffin Newman]

And even knowing the inheritance, that's the Ben.

[David Sims]

That's the Ben feeling.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I don't know. Give it a whirl. Why not? But I would, of course, then live once and then he end up dead. Yeah. He does die. I'm so sorry. Here's the money back.

[Griffin Newman]

That's what you would say.

[Leslie]

I'm so sorry. Here's the money back.

[David Sims]

I'm really, really sorry. I. I wanted the money because there's so much money and it's all in just one little bag.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And it's $100 bills. I so wanted it so desperately so I could use it to buy things and such.

[Griffin Newman]

Perhaps you understand. I like country girl's like, let me.

[David Sims]

Just unscrew my little oxygen tank. You see the money you can buy food, toys, clothes. I mean, there's so many things.

[Griffin Newman]

The way Sugar is set up from the beginning of the movie, you're like, giving him the money back wouldn't solve anything.

[Leslie]

Yeah, it wouldn't. And you already know that. Even Carson went here is a Man.

[David Sims]

Who you could not buy off for any amount. Right. You couldn't say to him like, hey, I'll give you the money back plus 10 million.

[Griffin Newman]

What he tries. He's like, wouldn't you rather just we split it rather than whatever they're paying you?

[David Sims]

Right. And he's like, that's not how I like to live my life.

[Leslie]

Yeah. He's like, nah, it's not going to happen.

[David Sims]

Yeah. What I like to do is have the biggest silencer you ever saw and put it on a shotgun.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. There's, there's the one silencer with the.

[Leslie]

Shotgun is also like a great story because not unlike the star the lightsaber story, it's like you have to create that, you know, there are like silencers for shotguns. Like it's fucking hanging out.

[Griffin Newman]

Out. Yes.

[David Sims]

Betty rocks. My favorite, my favorite kill in the movie is shooting the guy behind the shower curtain. I just like shooting someone where it's such a big gun that like, it's like, you know, like, like the shower curtain goes like woo.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But also the cattle gun's kind of ingenious because the first couple scenes they survey, they're just like, what do you mean there's no bullet? Right, right. There's this bizarreness that they start to figure out through like the damage created in other spaces of like, oh, it is kind of a perfect weapon.

[Leslie]

He also never uses it on screen.

[David Sims]

He used it once.

[Griffin Newman]

The, the guy at the start, the very beginning.

[Leslie]

Yeah, no, no, that's what I mean. But yeah, besides that guy.

[David Sims]

The only issue with it is but.

[Leslie]

It'S hanging over the movie the whole.

[Griffin Newman]

Time and he's carrying it around like it's a fucking oxygen tank. Right, right, right, right, right.

[David Sims]

I mean he. Look, he's a bit extra not to drag him. I mean like for example, when he needs to get some bandages, he explodes an entire car to distract people.

[Leslie]

People, sure.

[David Sims]

Like he's stealing from the pharmacy. Oh, I understand. I just feel like there's, there's other ways to approach that of like, maybe I'll steal some money or maybe I'll like, you know what I mean? He's like, blow up this car.

[Griffin Newman]

But isn't that what's kind of breaking? Tommy Lee Jones is like, I don't understand when this guy is using a scalpel and when he's using a machete. Cuz he does both. Sometimes it feels so strategic and thoughtful and sometimes it is so messy. He is perhaps just a messy who lives through the drama.

[David Sims]

He's actually. And he is having a brat summer. Can we talk about the milk? Yeah. He goes to Llewellyn's trailer. He blows the bloody bolt off. You know, Thunk. Walks around, nothing in there. Sits down, jug of milk. In case you weren't sure, he was a psycho.

[Griffin Newman]

Another great Deacon shot. Yes. He sits there with the jug of milk. He's sitting motionless. He hasn't even taken a sip yet. And then it cuts to the reverse shot, which is his reflection in the television.

[David Sims]

And then we see it again with Tommy Lee Jones.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And it is this interesting moment where, like, Sheriff Bell is clearly, like, he looked at himself in this mirror. Like, you know, he's putting himself in the shoes of the guy.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And he's just kind of like, I wonder, you know, like, it's just in that sugar moment.

[Griffin Newman]

You're like, what is he doing? Why is he just sitting here with a jug of milk, not watching tv, you know?

[David Sims]

Yeah. I think he's just rebooting.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, it does.

[David Sims]

Like, what's the next target? But like, they just. I think they just wisely avoid the Terminator thing. There's moments like him blowing up the car with, you know, walking with the explosion behind him. Like. Right. He's like a robot. But not always. And he's not indestructible.

[Griffin Newman]

They throw it off the hump with his look. They're always finding ways to stop him from feeling. Yes. Completely T800.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And he's not invulnerable, as you said.

[David Sims]

Here's my take. You just give me a crack at the Terminator franchise. Now. What I'm going to do is I'm going to. I'm going to use Terminator 2 as my jumping off point. We'll make a sequel to that one.

[Griffin Newman]

I know the thing about how it's hard to please Star wars fans, but Terminator, I think we can, if we figure it out.

[David Sims]

David Cross interested development. Talking about non monogamy where he's like, it really. It could work for. I'm just like the sixth time.

[Griffin Newman]

Guys, if we just commit to not leaving this room for 45 minutes, I think we can walk down a.

[Leslie]

With the.

[Griffin Newman]

It's 45 and we're done.

[Leslie]

And we're done.

[David Sims]

Here's my take. Arnie's in it. We'll figure out how.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, that sounds. There's a bag of money and there'll.

[David Sims]

Be a new Terminator. And what will his vibe be? I don't know. He's bugs or something.

[Griffin Newman]

We'll figure that out later. His Vibe is something other than Arnold.

[David Sims]

Has anyone done Liquid? Oh, yeah. Somebody did that one. What if he's a Gas Terminator? No one's done Gas.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Who's playing John Connor? Someone.

[David Sims]

Who'S an okay actor who nobody really cares about. Let's get that guy.

[Leslie]

Ryan Philippe.

[Griffin Newman]

God.

[David Sims]

I was talking about someone 0 people would be excited about.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

What did I just watch? Oh, I know what you did last Summer.

[Griffin Newman]

I had never seen it before.

[David Sims]

Filet back then. He is a piece of meat.

[Griffin Newman]

He was. But also that movie is.

[David Sims]

Oh, he's an.

[Griffin Newman]

Want to meet the most repellent thing you've ever seen?

[David Sims]

Then he gets eaten by crowd jobs.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Great stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

You have not seen the new one, right?

[Leslie]

I have not.

[Griffin Newman]

It is funny how they're just like, we're just not even gonna invoke him, basically.

[David Sims]

Oh, yeah. He doesn't come up.

[Griffin Newman]

No. It's like Prince and Love Hewitt are in it.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And Geller is like, very much. Have you seen it?

[David Sims]

I have. Is Prince still a fisherman? My favorite thing about those two movies is that Freddie Prinze Jr. Plays a working fisherman in those movies.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay. Mild.

[David Sims]

He's like, I got to go fish. I'm like, you've never. You don't know what a fish is.

[Griffin Newman]

Mild. Spoilers. He owns a, like, fisherman's bar.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it is implied that he still fishes, but the primary business.

[Leslie]

He's like a commercial fisherman. So. Good to know for Cannon.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

Yeah. I.

[Griffin Newman]

He still has a boat. He still seems to fish.

[Leslie]

Good. Good.

[Griffin Newman]

But it feels like the town has become very touristy and he now runs, like, the locals bar that has the fishing effect camera in it. And the Billy Blue side of the boat is hung up above the bar. Prince.

[Leslie]

Jesus Christ.

[Griffin Newman]

Looks pretty fantastic.

[David Sims]

He's aged really nicely.

[Griffin Newman]

He has aged beautifully. Yeah. There was a. I've been, like, watching and I'm like, Prince have, like a brolin moment.

[David Sims]

He's not that good an actor.

[Griffin Newman]

He's not that good. And yet I was watching it and I was like, someone could cast him really well. Yeah, he kind of works in this.

[Leslie]

But Cohen brother.

[David Sims]

He's an iconic Star wars character.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

He's Kanan Jarris.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he's. He's very good in that show.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Leslie]

Yeah, he's a. He has a really. Sorry, we'll go off this in a second. But the. There's that video of him, David, Talking about Star Wars. Talking about.

[David Sims]

He loves Star Wars.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Leslie]

He has a really great. He's a big nerd. I'm not.

[David Sims]

He was fun on one of the Mass Effect games too. He's a good voice actor.

[Griffin Newman]

Were you going to say, Ben, I.

[David Sims]

Have a question about the motel where he hides. It's just. This is like no country for Old Men, you know, Ben.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. That's what the movie is about.

[Leslie]

The.

[David Sims]

Okay. The motel where he. He hides it in a duct and then he rents another room that's like connected to the room. Found out. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Because he sees that the curtain has been moved. Right. I'm assuming that's the. The Mexican. Yes. Whoever's looking for it. Right. Like the other party trying to track. Track him down. Do they have the device or are they just figuring out that he's there?

[Griffin Newman]

That's a good question.

[David Sims]

I've never been able to like determine because.

[Griffin Newman]

Because Sugar obviously has the receiver. Right. For the track.

[Leslie]

Right, Right, right.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't. And also they would have one as well. There may be tracking Sugar. They might be following his trail. Yeah.

[Leslie]

I mean, is the scene with the. The suits. The scene with the suits is AF after that or just meaning. I. I wonder if that answers your. Your question. Because if he's. I think it is. I think that we see. I think we see Suits.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

Before that. Suits have a tracker. I wonder if Mexicans also have a. Oh, sure.

[David Sims]

Cuz they're two separate. There might. I think there's some dialogue that alludes to this.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

But they also could have talked to the. That another great just random character. The woman that runs that motel. Maybe they went in and talked to her as anyone got in a room kind of thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[Leslie]

Yeah. It could be that simple.

[Griffin Newman]

There's the moment when he's doing the. The air duct trick for the first time.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And he's sitting in the room with the gun loaded, waiting for him with the lights off. Right. And he sees the shadow of the footsteps underneath. He's hearing it and he's seeing it. And he's seeing him continue to walk. But before that moment when he's hearing the steps off into the distance.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

He calls. You're like, why the fuck is he picking up the phone? He calls the front desk, hears the deadline and then hangs up. And it's just like the guy's smart enough to know. I've studied this guy's behavior. He's killing the woman at the front desk. If he's already here, she's dead.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. There's just stuff like that I love.

[David Sims]

I love it too.

[Leslie]

I feel like he hasn't encountered Sugar at that point. So there is this, like, anticipation too, with the audience of like, here we go.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[Leslie]

Here we go.

[David Sims]

They.

[Griffin Newman]

They never.

[David Sims]

They shoot at each other, but they don't really interact.

[Griffin Newman]

It's after that. I know, right? Yes, but they're. They're. They talk on the phone quite far from each other.

[David Sims]

They talk on the phone, though.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[David Sims]

And then after he talks to Sugar, he talks to Harrelson and he's like, you talk too much. Yeah, yeah. Which is kind of funny. But, yeah, he does. And Sugar does not get him. I mean, it's just so funny. I'm sorry to keep hitting that point. We just don't get that weird satisfaction. We don't get the defeat of Sugar, obviously.

[Leslie]

It is a great shootout, man.

[Griffin Newman]

It is.

[Leslie]

And really too smart. You know, for all of his stupidity, he is a smart guy when he's driving that truck and he's watching the bullet holes and the.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, he's using the. The rear view mirror and everything.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And just the way they build the tension with the increasing amount of bullet holes around him. But you can never quite track where Chigurh is. You can track the trajectory of the gun.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But you're never, like, seeing him.

[Leslie]

You know, you don't get into his. I think, if I'm remembering correctly, you don't really get into his pov.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't think so.

[Leslie]

And so therefore, it is also a subversion of hero versus villain, because usually you'd pop over to villain and then you pop over to hero, you know.

[David Sims]

Instead, Llewellyn dies and Sugar sort of, you know, completes his mission and moves on wounded. And then Tom Bell sits down with his dad.

[Griffin Newman]

I believe so.

[David Sims]

Played by the great Barry Corbin.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Who is actor. I mostly think of as playing like, yeehaw. Texas guys.

[Griffin Newman]

He was on Northern Exposure.

[David Sims]

He's great on Northern Exposure. But, like, he would just like. He was the guy who could swing in wearing a cowboy hat in your TV show, being, like, from Texas, you know, and he's good at it.

[Griffin Newman]

It's shorthand.

[David Sims]

And in this, he's, like, pretty, you know, like, calm and quiet, beaten down and awesome.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And then Tom just tells his wife about some stories, some dreams he had, and then he woke up and it cuts to black. And I just remember my audience being like, what?

[Griffin Newman]

What the are you talking about?

[David Sims]

That's it.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? They're already.

[David Sims]

I didn't even know he was done. Was he? He's done. He's done talking.

[Griffin Newman]

When Llewelyn dies, it feels like, okay, so I guess I was wrong, but the movie is building to a showdown between Tommy Lee Jones and Bardem.

[Leslie]

Right, right, right, right, right. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And then you're like, no, it's ending on the guy's dream, and it feels like he's sort of like, hanging middle mid sentence. Tess Harper, who is so. Goodness.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

With just a few moments from Tender Mercies, one of my favorite movies.

[David Sims]

And they also, off screen, do a lot of hand stuff. I will say in the film, I.

[Griffin Newman]

Have no doubt they're. They have a very physical.

[Leslie]

Oh, my God.

[David Sims]

They've got a great relationship.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[David Sims]

I just love it that she's like, oh, great dream. Want to do some hand stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

So when you're saying the. The masterpiece. Personal question. Right. And part of it. It is that It. When you're posing that. And part of it is that this is something they don't originate. It is something they are assigned to. It is something they connect with.

[Leslie]

And, yeah, like I said, because, you know, so much of the dialogue is Cormac McCarthy and not them, it does feel like this is the. This is the film of just, you know, we are master filmmakers.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And is it just, like, skillful interpretation of someone else's voice? I do, do think this movie kind of in its sparseness and in a way they maybe couldn't do if they were writing it themselves from scratch, identifies some key through line in their worldview that certainly is reflected in all their films. And when people, especially the early parts of their career, would attack them for being kind of, like, nasty, cynical, just, like, setting up idiots to be punished. Punished, you know, in, like, a cool and kind of merciless world.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I. I do think there is this thing of, like, are they just nihilists? Does none of this matter to them? They make these movies that are touching on this kind of darkness. And I do think this movie is kind of their retort. There's a reason why I think Fargo, if not their masterpiece, is their definitive film because it is the ultimate balancing of everything they do. Right.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But part of what makes Fargo so powerful is that they're placing this, like, undeniable figure of good at the center of it. Who is cutting through this stuff?

[David Sims]

Yes. And Ed sort of is that. But he's so, so tired.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And he's not gonna fix it.

[Griffin Newman]

Marge is someone whose life lies ahead of her. She's about to have a child. There's a new, exciting chapter that's unfolding. He just got the stamp. Right.

[Leslie]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

There's all this sort of shit. And she is sort of like comically good. The movie has that lightness.

[Leslie]

She is comically. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Even as darkest moments. It's funny.

[Leslie]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would agree.

[Griffin Newman]

Her goodness is funny.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And so it. It is, if not obscuring their real feelings, I think it was adding to this sense of. Are they just playing with toys? Right.

[Leslie]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

How much of this is just like genre riffs for them?

[Leslie]

Is just them. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

In them doing this strip down, like subversive kind of genre deconstruction.

[Leslie]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

They're doing a more focused version of the kind of thing at the center.

[Leslie]

I would agree with that.

[Griffin Newman]

Fargo.

[Leslie]

That's something I think that I've learned in doing this with you guys.

[Griffin Newman]

They're re expressing something.

[Leslie]

They're re expressing something and they're doing. Yes. The pinnacle of what they do.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Leslie]

And because they can't rely on witty dialogue.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

And you know, like you said, a character like Marge that will just like, cut through all the bullshit. Yeah. I would say. I would go so far as to say it's a masterpiece because if I use the criteria of the ending of the movie, it did leave me like, you know, Mulholland, Driver, Zodiac, where I was like, wow.

[Griffin Newman]

It's also kind of twinned with the ending of Fargo. That also comes back to a couple having a conversation.

[Leslie]

Yes, yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Leslie]

In their comfortable.

[Griffin Newman]

Dumbest. But for him, it's like this moment of extreme vulnerability. It feels like Tommy Lee Jones is transparent in this final scene.

[Leslie]

He's incredible.

[Griffin Newman]

There is an understated sense of deep sadness and him feeling unmoored and vulnerability in him even sharing this with her. That the scariest thing he could do is ever share his abstract thoughts. He has not been able to untangle yet, even to the person closest to. In what seems to be a very healthy marriage. Right.

[Leslie]

Absolutely.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's sort of this sense of like, unlike Fargo, this is not a universe in which Marge is able to stop.

[Leslie]

Yes. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

The evil. Right. Obviously, as she puts it all, that for a little bit of money, she didn't stop it in time. A lot of damage was.

[Leslie]

Was done.

[Griffin Newman]

Was done. Many people died.

[Leslie]

People died. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But ultimately, like, there was some sense of justice at some point. And she gets to look at Peter Stormara at the back of the car and say, and for what? A little bit of money. A little bit of money. She at least hopes that that stays in his head versus here, the fact that the three people never meet. You kind of come back to Tommy Lee Jones being like, to what end?

[Leslie]

Yeah. And you're right. The. The villain, you know, Stormmar in Fargo is kind of the prototype for Sugar. You're right. Because, you know, just, you know, Terminator esque has his own code. It's not really even about the trajectory of what he's planned to do. But then in that film, he gets his comeuppance or whatever. And in this film, you don't know the fate of this guy.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And in the dreams that Tommy Lee Jones is having, I think he's trying to reckon with these cycles of the stories we tell ourselves of, like, lawmen and bad guys.

[Leslie]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Griffin Newman]

In a kind of idea of an American west where these things can balance themselves out. And he's just sort of like, are we moving into a realm where, for better or worse, we don't fit into the model anymore? And then who am I?

[Leslie]

Yeah. I think what's interesting, like, in terms of the thesis of the movie and sort of, I think what you take away from you, from it at the end and is that, you know, that all the characters sort of get this, like, you know, meh, who knows? Luan's dead. But I also heard that from somewhere that Tommy Lee Jones did that in one take and only did one of them. And that he also did the fugitive. Fugitive, sort of famous, you know, after the train crash speech, also in one take.

[Griffin Newman]

I'd say if he just goes for it, I think I go, yeah, we don't need another.

[Leslie]

Yeah, we don't need to do this again.

[Griffin Newman]

We get it.

[Leslie]

Like, he's just. He's totally embodied the character and therefore the I almost said lyrics, but the dialogue is just. He's just speaking it, you know?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. In the final shot, his face to me is so heartbreaking. Breaking where he looks so worried at how she is going to respond and what she thinks about what he just said.

[Leslie]

Yeah. I think that it would be funny.

[David Sims]

He was like, I had the weirdest dream. Like, I was in class and I had to take a test, and then I wasn't wearing any clothes. Then my teeth fell out.

[Griffin Newman]

She's like, yeah, it's pretty standard, textbook stuff. You're worried about aging.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I had the weirdest nightmare. Donald Trump became president Fantasy.

[Leslie]

Don't bad mouth David Sky.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I'm sorry, David. This film, I'm just moving us along.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Premiered at the Cannes film festival in 2007. I'm noting that only because it's an insane can, because no country for Old Men is there. Zodiac is there. Stephen Freers in all his wisdom and. And his jury gave both of those films zero awards.

[Griffin Newman]

Why did I think no country won director?

[David Sims]

Because the Cohen have one director. But not for that one. Okay, for that one they won Buff Kiss and it's like four months, three weeks, two days, one the Palm. That's a good movie. That's obviously a very like powerful festival film. Like it's.

[Leslie]

Oh yeah, we talked about this. Yeah. For a Zodiac. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And it is an excellent. Impossible to imagine watching a second time movie. But if you see it at a festival out of nowhere hits you like a ton of.

[Leslie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

But it is a little rude that it just went over. Like it got well received. The critics like liked it there, but it didn't win anything. Paramount Vantage wanted to film release this in August, which is what crazy. They were going off of the success in the previous year of the Constant Gardener, which of course did win an Oscar.

[Griffin Newman]

We've talked about this sort of like August sort of Labor Day esque like focus features, adult thriller slot where you could have like kind of a modest counter program success.

[Leslie]

Yes, that's true.

[Griffin Newman]

Movie is not quite that right.

[David Sims]

The Cohen's perhaps wisely felt strongly about releasing this film in the fall.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Came out in November and was their biggest hit of the moment. True Grid eclipses it, but it made 74 million domestic and 171 worldwide. And it won best picture at the Academy Awards.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know if you know, director, screenplay, supporting actor.

[David Sims]

That's right, it lost. For sound editing, sound mixing, cinematography and editing.

[Griffin Newman]

I watched the three speeches this morning.

[David Sims]

Their speeches.

[Griffin Newman]

Joel tells the story. That's very funny. About or no, for screenplay. He says, he says the Cornic McCarthy and Homer thing, right?

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And then Ethan gets up and he goes like I thank you. And he walks off stage. And then when they win best director, Joel tells the story about them growing up making movies together and how it feels crazy that their life doesn't feel different from when they were.

[David Sims]

And they're like, we're happy you let us play in this little sandbox.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank you for letting us have our corner of the sandbox. And then Ethan gets up and goes, I think basically said everything I needed to say last time.

[David Sims]

Thank you.

[Leslie]

I love it.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a perfect bit. And then of course when they win best picture, they say nothing.

[David Sims]

Scott Rudin gets on his head and revolves around or whatever. Scott Rudin throws cheese strings from the stage. This film, Griffin came out November 9, 2007. Yeah, limited. So it's opening number 15, a robust $43,000 screen average, though number one at the box office, is sort of the no country for Old Men of animated films. Though in its second week at the box office. I'm joking.

[Griffin Newman]

It is called B Movie.

[David Sims]

That's right. It's Jerry Seinfeld's B movie now. Have you seen B Movie?

[Leslie]

I have not.

[David Sims]

He's a bee.

[Griffin Newman]

She's kind of a movie about an old man who doesn't understand it is no longer his country.

[Leslie]

My God.

[David Sims]

That's sort of slowly what Jerry SEINFEL his last 25 years have been.

[Leslie]

Oh, my God.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm just imagining.

[Leslie]

Yes, exactly. Yes. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm just imagining the last scene of no country with Jerry Seinfeld and his wife. This country just very quietly going, what's the deal? Pretty good with an old man.

[David Sims]

Number two at the box office is a film that I think was widely tipped as a major Oscar player.

[Griffin Newman]

American Gangster.

[David Sims]

Right. Did well.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Is not bad, but certainly underwhelmed.

[Griffin Newman]

Only the one nomination for Ruby D.

[David Sims]

I think I might have gotten, like, a costume nod, but yes, essentially. But not a bad movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Not a bad movie.

[David Sims]

Pretty rewatchable.

[Griffin Newman]

It was just on paper. You were like, this is going to be the greatest of all time.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

Well, also, it's the year after the Departed, so it makes sense. Yeah.

[David Sims]

It was number three at the box office new this week, I think. Very unhappy for the studio that this is opening number three.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

It's a comedy high concept. Comedy.

[Griffin Newman]

November 2007, what Studio released this picture? Warner Bros. Warner Bros. It is not Fred Claus, is it?

[David Sims]

It is, unfortunately, Vince Vaughn's Fred Claus.

[Griffin Newman]

One of the most repellent films I've ever seen. A film that actually embodies pure evil.

[David Sims]

Right. Now I remember, of course, this is when I was an intern at People magazine because I covered the B movie red carpet in London. I worked in London. I covered the red cover for this film. I've talked about it a lot on this podcast over the years. This is a huge, huge flop.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Opening new at number four. Drama. Serious drama. Oh, oh, oh, oh.

[Griffin Newman]

You're saying this movie is.

[David Sims]

I did not cover the red carpet for Fred Claus. I did for the kingdom, but that's not what we're.

[Griffin Newman]

But this is Lions for Lambs.

[David Sims]

Lions for Lambs, where it's just like everyone's in a room going, like, but the war. Is it good? We don't know. Yes. I've never seen Lions for Lambs. No, I haven't covered the red Carpet.

[Griffin Newman]

That is the fundamental yes or no question of our time. No, it's that thing of like the.

[David Sims]

Tom Cruz, Meryl Streep, Robert Redford, the Cruise implosion.

[Leslie]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Summer Redstone says we're ending our deal with him at Paramount. And then the big buzzy announcement is United Artists is being handed over to Tom Cruise. It is going to be his studio. He gets to make what he wants. And the first move was, I'm going to play supporting in a Robert Redford talkie drama. And it felt like, is he. Is this the next phase of his career?

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Is he not interested in being like action star, movie star anymore?

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And right after this he pivots, right?

[David Sims]

So far away from that.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Leslie]

And this is like the couch jumping era.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, this is like right after post.

[David Sims]

Couch, everyone's a little sick.

[Griffin Newman]

How do I reset? And then his second UA movie is Valkyrie, where he finds Macquarie and that sets the next 20 years of his career.

[David Sims]

Number five at the box office. Griffin is a film that matters very much to you and I. Not as a film, but as a thing we used to say to each other. It's a thing we used to say to each other. Film trivia a lot. And you would say it to a lot of people. A line from this film, put it on my tab. Put it on my tab.

[Griffin Newman]

What's it called? It is one of the great breakfast starch movie posters of all time.

[David Sims]

That's right.

[Griffin Newman]

It is called Dan in Real Life.

[David Sims]

The Steve Carell film Dan in Real Life. Have you seen it last night?

[Leslie]

I have not. I have not.

[Griffin Newman]

It's got one of the most weirdly photoshopped posters of all time.

[Leslie]

That I know the poster of his face.

[David Sims]

We all know the poster.

[Griffin Newman]

Nothing close to that happens in the film.

[Leslie]

Oh, really?

[David Sims]

No. He doesn't sleep on pancakes.

[Griffin Newman]

But it was clearly like a kind of like sub kind of kazdany attempt at a dramedy that then they were like, how do we sell this to look more like 40 year old virgin?

[Leslie]

Oh, right.

[Griffin Newman]

What can be happening in relation to his face?

[Leslie]

Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

A stack of pancakes. Put it on my cup.

[David Sims]

Number six at the box office is so Saw four.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

That's the one that starts with his autopsy, I believe. Okay, maybe, I think. No, it is where they're like, he's dead. Number five. Seven is the film the game plan. Now what's that one?

[Griffin Newman]

That is the Rock is a football player who finds out he had a.

[David Sims]

Daughter and she likes like ballet. And he's like, what's the game plan.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Or whatever.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the era where he's like, I am solely family movie star. And he does that tooth fairy and escape to Rich mountain in a row. And then was like, nevermind, never mind. Bailout.

[David Sims]

Never.

[Leslie]

Suck this. Yeah.

[David Sims]

Number eight at the box office is the, like, sort of, okay, thriller. 30 Days of Night. The vampire movie with Josh Hartnett. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

David Slade.

[Leslie]

Yeah. I've never seen it.

[David Sims]

Number nine is something that I do not remember what this is P2. The fuck is that?

[Griffin Newman]

That was a Wes Bentley. Evil parking attendant.

[Leslie]

I don't know how you know this.

[Griffin Newman]

Broken brain.

[Leslie]

How do you know what we've all parked? P2 is.

[David Sims]

Is. We've all parked in a parking lot. But what if it was evil?

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's Rachel Nichols and Wes Bentley.

[David Sims]

You are correct.

[Griffin Newman]

And I. It was. It was one of those distributors that only existed for, like, 18 months. Who are you?

[David Sims]

It was distributed, of course. Well, it was distributed by Summit Entertainment, so they.

[Griffin Newman]

They. Oh, okay. Maybe it was early Summit.

[David Sims]

Yeah. But it was Alexandra. Aha. He didn't direct it. He produced it. And he found, like, one of his freaks to have directed. I would not direct a parking movie. I assume that's what he sounds like. Number 10 at the box office is the Martian Child. What is that again?

[Griffin Newman]

Is.

[David Sims]

It's John Cusack.

[Griffin Newman]

John Cusack.

[David Sims]

And he's like, what if My Child was Martian?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Leslie]

When you hear, like, all the.

[Griffin Newman]

The.

[Leslie]

The log lines.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

Just diminishing returns of like, you know, we're going down to 10. And it's just like, my God.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's basically the movie is like, help, My son is killing Apex. I have watched this movie on a plane. But it's basically, I think, like, Cusack being like, I don't know, the kid thinks he's a Martian. And then someone plays the therapist who's trying to get through the kid. I want to say it has a maybe vaguely tasteless twist, but I might be misremembering that. I think it is one of the rare movies, though, where Jon and Joan plays siblings, if I am not mistaken. That's why I gotta say about the Martian Child. I don't know what to tell you. That's it, Leslie.

[Leslie]

Thank you, guys.

[Griffin Newman]

Pleasures all.

[Leslie]

Thank you. Three for three. I mean, really. That is. Those.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow. Yeah. And once again, we cannot oversell how much dog shit we're gonna sell you with next time. Yeah.

[Leslie]

You have to. There's no way. You've gotta.

[Griffin Newman]

Stinkiest shit we've ever covered. On this show.

[Leslie]

Yeah. Yeah. But you guys have been really lovely in terms of essentially offering me or letting me pick. Like, really incredible.

[Griffin Newman]

That's how we.

[David Sims]

That's what we.

[Leslie]

Oh, we heard you like Zodiac.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

You know, and then David texted me and was like.

[David Sims]

That was the weird thing also, where it was like, nobody was going for Zodiac, which is odd because it's, like, so incredible.

[Griffin Newman]

We raised, like, the flag to friends and we're like, who likes Zodiac? Why can't we find anybody? Yeah.

[Leslie]

I think, like, no country is just, you know, it's just an astonishing movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Leslie]

So, like, those three, I just am like, jesus Christ. I feel really lucky.

[David Sims]

You did great.

[Griffin Newman]

And I. I did. It felt like the pinnacle of their career to me at this time. And yet I. I think the run that comes right after it is sort of the kind of stuff you can only do when emboldened with this level of success.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's fertile stuff.

[Leslie]

It's a blank check.

[Griffin Newman]

It's really good shit. They were. They had quite a blank check run right after this.

[David Sims]

Leslie, are you doing good?

[Leslie]

Yeah, I'm doing okay.

[Griffin Newman]

You're about to go on vacation?

[Leslie]

I'm about to go on vacation. I. And bike vacation. I mean, I'm not gonna be with my wife and my child. As a parent, I'm staying here, but I'm not. I don't deal with it. No, I'm okay. I'm good. I'm good. Actually sort of not doing anything right now, which is really lovely.

[David Sims]

That's great. I feel like I last saw. Saw you right before my twins were born.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, that's true.

[David Sims]

You were beginning to spool up on. On Cult of Love or what, you know, like, you had stuff on your plate, right?

[Leslie]

Yeah. It was, like, about to. To start rehearsals.

[Griffin Newman]

You had a lot going. Yeah, I feel like actually had just come out and you were starting.

[David Sims]

And then, like, since then, we will text once a month. It's like, we should really hang out. And I'm like, I know.

[Leslie]

And then we never did.

[David Sims]

So sleepy.

[Leslie]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But I just wave and I'm like, I got no kids over here. You guys tell me when and where.

[Leslie]

I mean, I'm so tired that I'm not even playing. Playing, like, Night Rain with my RPG group, you know, Like, I mean, we're just, like. We started, and then everybody was like, what happened to you? And I was like, I. I just. I can't even bring myself to play a video game.

[David Sims]

I'm so tired. I started the Donkey Kong game, which is for Children. And I was like, this is kind of overwhelming. Yeah, this is a lot for me right now.

[Leslie]

Yeah. But yeah, that would.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's hang out.

[Leslie]

That sums it up.

[David Sims]

And obviously, you know, everyone should be hanging.

[Leslie]

But. Yeah, thanks for having me. Me, yeah, thanks for having me. It was wonderful to watch the movie again.

[Griffin Newman]

No, of course. A phenomenal film.

[David Sims]

Kind of an easy movie to talk about in a weird way where you're just like, who am I to say anything bad about this movie? Like, it all works.

[Leslie]

Yeah, you just kind of like roll through it. It's like absolutely brilliant.

[David Sims]

Not in like an uncomplicated way. There's complicated stuff to think about, but it's just kind of like, oh, I'm not really fault in anything here.

[Leslie]

One thing that I was going to say very quickly was, was the one thing that I love about the novel and the film is that, you know, then Seventh Seal. It's like I'm playing chess with death. And I just love that this movie is like, It's a coin toss.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, there you go. There's no game to win.

[Leslie]

It's a coin toss.

[David Sims]

I think we also have to mention that this is a dry movie. Well, that's true, Ben.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank God we said that.

[David Sims]

Although he does go in the water at one point to get away from. From the people and it looks refreshing. I know when he goes in there, I'm like, man, that's what I would be doing all the time.

[Griffin Newman]

But. But to. To back up Ben's point here, it's a movie so dry that the greatest mistake its lead character makes.

[David Sims]

Go by the pool.

[Griffin Newman]

Is getting a jug of water and.

[David Sims]

Going by the pool and getting a jug of water.

[Griffin Newman]

The water.

[David Sims]

I was kind of shocked you didn't have water, by the way. I'm like, you're out here like hunting in the desert. You don't have like a bottle of water like you serve in the army.

[Griffin Newman]

This guy is a dumb.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's a freaking dry movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank you all for listening.

[Leslie]

Thank you. Thank you, guys.

[Griffin Newman]

Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. Tune in next week for Burn after reading.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Just a really funny somebody follow up movie. Yeah, we'll have.

[David Sims]

That's one where like eight guests have rotated out of that spot. We'll see.

[Griffin Newman]

It's been an interesting. It's been like the crow read in terms of the number of different names the person.

[David Sims]

The standing name right now is wild. We will see. We cannot say it. We'll tell you afterwards.

[Leslie]

Oh, yeah, don't say it.

[Griffin Newman]

Don't Say it. What happens?

[Leslie]

I'll see you guys for the next masterpiece.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, absolutely. Penny Marshall's riding in cars with boys.

[Leslie]

I'm game.

[Griffin Newman]

David's taking a photo. Of what? Of the runtime.

[David Sims]

Runtime. Someone asked me how long this episode.

[Griffin Newman]

Was because it's not four. We came in no. Respectable no.

[David Sims]

Four.

[Leslie]

A respectful three.

[Griffin Newman]

A respectful three.

[David Sims]

Honestly, I don't know how you put up with us.

[Leslie]

I'm obsessed with this. This was actually like my. I. It's my happy place. I love talking with you guys. And I even said I was like, I just am so happy that I get to do something that I love. And I'm not like. And. And it's during a time when I'm not also, like, under deadline. It's kind of like a chill vibe.

[Griffin Newman]

And as always, I'm going to promise you that next time you're going to get the worst movie ever.

[David Sims]

Do you Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas.

[Griffin Newman]

And our Associate producer is AJ McKeon.

[David Sims]

This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithee. Research by JJ Burch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex, Alex Mitchell, artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon Blank Check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes.

[Griffin Newman]

Follow us on social.

[David Sims]

Subscribe to our weekly newsletter Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.