The Man Who Wasn't There with Jordan Hoffman

Summary

Blank Check with Griffin & David

Episode: The Man Who Wasn't There with Jordan Hoffman

Release Date: September 7, 2025
Guest: Jordan Hoffman

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Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Griffin Newman and David Sims, along with returning guest Jordan Hoffman, delve into the Coen Brothers’ stylish and haunting 2001 noir, The Man Who Wasn’t There. The conversation orbits not only the making, meaning, and legacy of the film, but also Billy Bob Thornton’s unique run as a late-'90s/early-'00s star, the film’s muted release post-9/11, the Coens’ preoccupation with existential emptiness, and much more. As always, Blank Check’s inquiry is deep, hilarious, and digressive, with robust detours into Star Trek, Star Wars, and even Beethoven’s bowels.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Billy Bob Thornton’s Arc and Persona (00:01–29:00)

• The hosts revisit Billy Bob Thornton’s “blank check” era and star persona, comparing his late-‘90s/early-‘00s run to that of Tim Robbins—never quite the A-list lead, but always an asset on a call sheet.
• Quote:
  “From ’96 to about 2003 or 4, there’s the argument that he’s Hollywood’s best working actor.” — Griffin (01:14)
• They recap all the prior times Billy Bob’s come up on Blank Check, remembering his turns in Simple Plan, Tombstone, Princess Mononoke, and more.
• Discussion: Billy Bob’s public image whiplashes from “blank check” actor to “public kook,” with tangents on his TV career (Goliath, Fargo, Landman) and the infamous “Boxmasters on QTV” interview (30:00–32:20).

2. The Film's Place in the Coen Canon & Release Context (07:20–16:41; 42:00–44:17)

• The Man Who Wasn’t There feels “unheralded” and “forgotten” amid the Coens’ celebrated oeuvre, yet for another director, it’d be a career peak.
• The hosts discuss the repercussions of its post-9/11 release: “This movie came out like five, six weeks after 9/11… Everybody was like, it’s so—I can’t. I didn’t want to see it. So depressing.” — Jordan (42:00)
• Even among the hosts, consensus is it’s great, perhaps a “masterpiece” (David), but not their personal top-tier Coens. A testament to the Coens’ deep bench.
• They note that, despite a warm reception and festival accolades (shared Best Director, Cannes), it was their lowest-grossing film since The Hudsucker Proxy.

3. Visual Style & Technical Achievement (38:02–43:44)

• The film’s genesis came from a fascination with old barbershop posters—“We started thinking about the guy who did these haircuts and wrote the character of a barber...”
• Visually, the Coens and Roger Deakins took inspiration not just from noir, but B-movie sci-fi and Cold War paranoia, using stylized grayscale instead of deep, shadowy black-and-white.
  Quote: “A thing I love about this movie is that they’re like, ‘No, visually, what we were studying were like low-budget B sci-fi films.’” — David (41:05)
• Deakins’ black-and-white cinematography is universally praised, and the technical process of shooting in color for later digital desaturation is discussed.

4. Readings of Ed Crane: Motivations & Ambiguity (73:33–113:27)

• Unpacking Ed’s Passivity: The central mystery: why does Ed do what he does? He’s outwardly placid, “the most passive, placid guy,” but sets tragedy in motion via one bold (if ill-thought) blackmail scheme.
• The hosts dig into possible interpretations:
  • Is it mid-century masculinity anxiety? Blackmail as an attempt to escape “the second chair” and traditional powerlessness?
  • Unspoken queerness? “There is a wide interpretation of this movie, that he’s a closeted gay man.” (55:26)
  • Is Ed a barely-diagnosed autistic character, or a parable about emotional inarticulacy and existential emptiness, as in No Country for Old Men or A Serious Man? Quote: “He is a man who, despite his misdeeds, is a largely benevolent sociopath. It’s almost a borderline sympathetic portrayal of someone who is incapable of feeling or expressing…” — David (94:41)
• The critical line:
  “The more you look, the less you really know. It’s a fact. A true fact. In a way, it’s the only fact there is.” — Tony Shalhoub’s lawyer character (61:34, 161:08)

5. Supporting Cast & Acting Showcase (59:08–61:23)

• Frances McDormand’s role is significant but purposefully sidelined: “I’m here to play an image… I’m not an important character.”
• Gandolfini’s performance is recognized as a big selling point at the time (fresh off The Sopranos premiere), while Tony Shalhoub’s oily lawyer is a show-stealer (“lube it up”).
• John Polito’s role as a closeted dry cleaning conman is a highlight: “He is this incredibly aggressive, sloppy con man who is also desperately lonely... There’s so much going on with this guy…” — David (76:13–76:28)

6. Digressions & Blank Check Staples

• Billy Bob's Personal Eccentricities: Phobias of antiques, obsession with routine, deep neuroses (57:19–58:32).
• Star Trek/Star Wars Tangent: The ever-evolving fate of streaming-era Trek (14:01–16:35) and a long riff on the “Yub Nub” Ewok song and “Jizz music” (22:26–24:05).
• Cohen Brothers' Dynamic: Theories on what caused Joel/Ethan’s creative split, their marriages, and working relationships with Frances McDormand (78:27–81:17).
• Box Masters QTV interview: Detailed breakdown and philosophical musings about artist personas and Billy Bob’s legacy (29:04–32:23).

7. Beethoven's Suffering (89:44–93:11)

• In classic Hoffman fashion, a digression about Beethoven’s chronic diarrhea as he wrote immortal music: Quote: “From his teens until he died he suffered from crippling diarrhea... While his body was falling apart, literally falling out of his ass, he wrote the most beautiful works of art...” — Jordan (90:53–92:13)

8. Box Office & 2001 Movie Landscape (132:05–144:00)

• Amélie opened the same weekend in limited release, showing the stark contrast in reception to whimsy vs. noir at the time.
• Monsters, Inc., The One, K-PAX, and more characterized the post-9/11 box-office mood, which seemed to demand either pure escapism or uncomplicated moral clarity.

9. Final Takeaways & Reflections (151:43–153:27)

• The film stands as a self-interrogation by the Coens about the criticisms of their supposed nihilism and mockery.
  Quote: “It’s more them interrogating how they’re perceived. If you truly just don’t care, how would that person even function in the world?” — David (153:09)
• Overall, The Man Who Wasn’t There is an “emotionally sincere” film about someone for whom sincerity is elusive.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Billy Bob’s Prime:
  “From ‘96 to about 2003 or 4, there’s the argument that he’s Hollywood’s best working actor.” — Griffin (01:14)
• On the Coens’ deep bench:
  “Is this in my bottom five? Even though I think it might be a masterpiece?” — David (08:05)
• On Ed Crane’s inner life:
  “He’s a man who, despite his misdeeds, is a largely benevolent sociopath… a tragedy of a guy who just can’t care.” — David (94:42, 105:52)
• On the film’s ambiguity/meaning:
  “The more you look, the less you really know. It’s a fact. A true fact. In a way, it’s the only fact there is.” — Tony Shalhoub as Freddie Riedenschneider (61:34, episode’s closing words 161:08)
• Beethoven’s suffering as inspiration:
  “He was creating these works of art that have stood and will stand for centuries while his body was falling apart, literally falling out of his ass.” — Jordan (91:08–92:13)
• Hoffman’s recurring personal line:
  “My wife and I have not performed the sex act in some time.” — Billy Bob as Ed Crane, invoked by Jordan to reflect on marriage (66:56–68:59)
• On Frances McDormand's role:
  “I’m here to play, like, an image… I’m not an important character.” — Griffin referencing McDormand’s self-aware performance. (59:08)

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Timeline

00:01–07:20: Billy Bob career arc, his place in late-’90s cinema, and the public’s shifting perception.
07:20–16:41: Introduction to the film; its “unheralded” quality, release context, and reception.
16:42–29:00: Digressions on streaming TV, Star Trek/Star Wars, and Blank Check in-jokes.
29:00–33:00: Billy Bob’s infamous Boxmasters interview, artist eccentricity, and the line between performance and persona.
33:00–38:00: Tangent (ad break).
38:02–43:44: Origins of The Man Who Wasn’t There, visual and genre influences, technical production.
44:17–57:03: Further background on Deakins and the film’s “cold” critical/box office fate.
57:03–73:33: Eccentricities of Thornton, Frances McDormand’s character, supporting cast, and Cohen-verse connections.
73:33–113:27: The big read—what’s Ed Crane’s deal? Sexuality, sociopathy, emotional dysregulation, and the existential void.
113:27–129:50: Plot recap, further theorizing, and Billy Bob’s post-film trajectory.
129:51–153:27: Legacies—of the movie, Billy Bob, and the Coens. Box office, culture, and critical standing.
153:27–End: Plugs, shilling Hofstack, listener questions, and classic Hoffmanine closing bits.

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:14 — Best working actor debate
• 07:45 — Film’s “unheralded” status
• 42:00 — Post-9/11 release woes
• 55:26 — Is Ed Crane a closeted gay man?
• 61:34 — “The more you look, the less you really know.”
• 94:41–105:52 — Sympathy for the sociopath: Is Ed’s emptiness the point?
• 132:05–144:00 — Box office game; where the film landed in 2001
• 151:43 — Coens vs. their critics—what’s this movie really about?

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Conclusion

The Man Who Wasn’t There is a complex, melancholic inquiry into passivity, masculine failure, and existential blankness, reflecting both the subject of its title and the criticisms sometimes attributed to its creators. The hosts’ analysis amplifies the film’s surprisingly profound, subtly emotional core, and, as always, offers a torrent of laughter, deep contextual knowledge, and indelible podcast moments. From Billy Bob’s “unclassifiable” stardom to the Coens’ fascination with meaninglessness, this episode affirms the Magic of the Blank Check method: a forensic yet humane investigation into cinema’s oddest corners.

Not sure what to think of the film? As Freddie Riedenschneider says:

“The more you look, the less you really know.” (61:34)

Transcript

[Griffin Newman]

Blank Check with Griffin and David Claving.

[David Sims]

Don't know what to say or to expect.

[Jordan Hoffman]

All you need to know is that the name of the show is Blank Check.

[David Sims]

He told them to look not at the podcast, but at the meaning of the podcast. And then he said the podcast had no meaning. Pretty good speech. I. Last night I was like, I almost have a Billy Bob and I lost it today.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, it's. But he's. He's. He's in a specific.

[David Sims]

He's in a very specific moat. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. He wasn't usually doing this. Usually he'd be talking about French fried potaters.

[David Sims]

Right. Or as Andy Samberg likes to do his impression. Talk about Kangol caps.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He doesn't have much of a Southern accent.

[David Sims]

No.

[Jordan Hoffman]

But there's.

[Griffin Newman]

There's the slightest little.

[David Sims]

There's the little. I was like, I was getting. I was trying to pick up on which syllables he'll like, but I couldn't.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I just kind of throws it all away.

[David Sims]

I mean, look, this is. In many ways, this is the ultimate power of the movie. This guy's one of one. David, you love to mount the argument. I'm going to say it again. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

From 1996 to about 2003 or 4, I would say there's the argument that he's Hollywood's best working actor.

[David Sims]

I. I think it's a fascinating argument.

[Griffin Newman]

I like to make it this case now more and more, because it's like, now he's not like. And he's so far from being thought of kind of as an actor. Like, now he's just like public kook Billy Bob Thornton, but also the star.

[David Sims]

Of, like, America's biggest streaming show, Land Man.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, that is true that he's on Land Man.

[David Sims]

That's the thing you forget is you're like. And he like Goliath.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? Goliath.

[David Sims]

And he won awards for Fargo. Like, he's like, spent 10 years Fargo. He's incredible. And you don't like that show. And you have to concede he is unbelievable on that.

[Griffin Newman]

Would never. Would never not.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Is Landman good?

[David Sims]

Many are arguing this. Many.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I. I think with all Paramount, plus.

[David Sims]

It is Taylor Sheridan.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Oh, yeah. All right.

[Griffin Newman]

With all those Taylor Sheridan shows, I feel like they are very enjoyable as sort of the ceiling. Like, no one's out here being like, you know, this is the great American literature of our time. Because, like, Land man, you're always just getting served clips where, like, his daughter. There's the clip where his daughter is like, I only let him come on my tits like a good girl. Like, we're not, you know, we're not that serious. And he's like. And it was just like, what the is this?

[Jordan Hoffman]

But it's huge.

[David Sims]

I mean, this is one of those things where it's like oil. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And there's like Yellowstone is cat.

[Jordan Hoffman]

You would think it'd be oil, man.

[David Sims]

I know, but it's. Well, you have to own the land that the oil is under.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Do you or can you not steal it? I saw a flower moon. You just steal it. You know when Bill, I'm curious about this for. For Mr. Thornton and that when. When I really decided this guy's a dick. And it's a pretty famous moment. It's when he was on that Canadian dude's Gene Gammachi.

[David Sims]

We've talked himself a deeply normal man.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, well, he's. Yeah, he got. He did terror. You know, I don't know what he did, but he. Many bad things allegedly did lead to bad things. But he. That guy with the long last name, he. He was doing a normal interview with Billy Bob and Billy Bob was acting like a real jackass because he was the only one. His record.

[Griffin Newman]

He only wanted to talk music. We have talked about this on this show.

[David Sims]

It's one of the 10 greatest moments in media.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I want to know. But here's the point. What year did that happen?

[Griffin Newman]

Kind of like 10 years ago.

[David Sims]

I'm gonna say it's like 2012.

[Griffin Newman]

It was on QTV. Of course.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I remember thinking, wow, like, you know, I understand like somebody who goes in to do like as someone who has.

[Griffin Newman]

Had an interview celebs since 2009.

[David Sims]

Jesus.

[Griffin Newman]

So that was a very long time ago.

[Jordan Hoffman]

That was when he just totally. I just. I turned my back on him.

[Griffin Newman]

But see, because America did. And yes, Gin's right that yes, he be. He has become a streaming TV star. Sure. But that is when he's kind of stops mattering.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. He just became. He just announced the world. Behold, for I am a dick. He was just like, I feel like.

[David Sims]

We'Re rushing through so many things. There's so much Billy about to talk about in this episode. That's true.

[Griffin Newman]

But we have done many Billy Bob.

[David Sims]

Talks, but this is one.

[Griffin Newman]

I guess he's always.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Bbts. Bbts.

[David Sims]

This is one of the Billy Bob movies.

[Griffin Newman]

So wait, but. Okay, no, but when we've talked about.

[David Sims]

Him as a side dish. You want to see which times we've covered Billy Bob on the podcast?

[Griffin Newman]

Because we. We. We covered the Gift, the film that he wrote. Which of Course was, I think, very obviously an homage to his mother who was a psychic.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, I don't know anything about that movie. I know the Perry Farrell the Gift, but I don't think that's this.

[David Sims]

It's a Sam Raimi picture. It's the film he makes right before Spider Man.

[Griffin Newman]

Gothic.

[David Sims]

Southern Gothic. Clairvoyant.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Forgot about that thriller.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, we covered Simple Plan, which obviously he's incredible.

[David Sims]

Incredible in very good movie. We did Tombstone with the Doughboys.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, but he's. He's a small princess.

[David Sims]

Mononoke. We discussed his infamous voiceover performance.

[Griffin Newman]

He's very interesting casting in that project.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I'm not a fan.

[David Sims]

In the American version, we did an Armageddon Drive in.

[Griffin Newman]

No, but we one day won't do a proper. You know.

[David Sims]

Yes, that's. Hey. And by the way, that's a promise.

[Griffin Newman]

That's a promise and a threat.

[David Sims]

I of course constantly bring up that he is actually very good in Bandits.

[Griffin Newman]

Uhhuh. But okay, so like the 96. My, my. So obviously it's like before 96, he's in good movies. Dead Man. He's incredible. Obviously in. Well, One False Move, which he also wrote.

[David Sims]

He was on. What was that show called Hearts of Fire.

[Griffin Newman]

It was called Hearts of Fire.

[David Sims]

He was on an NBC Billy Bob Davis. He was kind of a James Carville, I think.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, it was like a John Ritter sitcom that was like a lighthearted kind of Bill Clinton y thing, you know.

[David Sims]

Like who's the female lead of that Markie Post.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, absolutely.

[David Sims]

Great rip.

[Griffin Newman]

But like 96, obviously he wins the Sling Blade Oscar and is becomes a somewhat inexplicable movie star. Sort of, sort of character actor slash lead of a Cohen's movie.

[David Sims]

I was talking, I was talking to my brother about this where we were talking about the Tim Robbins fall off. Right. Another man who's been the lead of a Coen Brothers movie and another man.

[Griffin Newman]

Who definitely is like not prickly at all.

[David Sims]

And he was like. But don't you feel like at his peak he was like one of the 10 biggest A list movie stars. And I was like, he is a fascinating example in a way. I think Billy Bob is like Tim.

[Griffin Newman]

Robbins, to be clear, is who I'm saying no to.

[David Sims]

Right? Where he was just like. He was kind of the top of the B list leading man pile, but also near the top of the A list. Second lead, third lead villain, one small scene like. And Billy Bob has.

[Griffin Newman]

He was a teacher name. And Tim Robbins, I mean, Billy Bob is, is a good looking guy and like, this is an example of a movie where you're like, yeah, God, what a face he's got. But, like, he was wearing the suits. He's very handsome. He wasn't, you know, traditionally handsome. Tim Robbins is pretty handsome. He is, but he's kind of baby face.

[David Sims]

He's got the baby face and all this stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

Tim Robbins was right. He was sort of what you describe. But he also did art housey stuff.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And directed as well.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, he did. So he had the kind of intellectual.

[David Sims]

The argument is like, that's kind of what made them so valuable, is that they were just like absolute Swiss army knives of like, just constantly in demand for something because there were so many different things they could deliver and they were not easily defined.

[Griffin Newman]

What's the podcast?

[David Sims]

The podcast is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

[Griffin Newman]

David.

[David Sims]

It's a podcast about filmography. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear, and sometimes they weren't there. Baby is a miniseries on the films of Joel and Ethan Cohen together and separately. Today, we are Talking about their 2001 film, a film that I think is kind of forgotten.

[Griffin Newman]

I think this film is slightly unheralded at this point. It's funny to think about that. You're right.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It's a film that isn't there.

[Griffin Newman]

It's partly.

[David Sims]

A little bit. A little bit.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's partly, obviously, that they've made a lot of very, very celebrated films.

[David Sims]

They have.

[Griffin Newman]

So even a movie that is good and handsome like this one will be somewhat on the lower end.

[David Sims]

Look, not to keep building tension for the final episode rankings, but I'm just like, is this thing in my bottom five? Even though I think it might be a masterpiece?

[Griffin Newman]

I don't think it's a masterpiece, but I do think it's good.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I think it's terrific. And it's also not in my, like, you know, it's not in my top.

[Griffin Newman]

Tier, but it's really.

[David Sims]

Certainly a movie is only suffering from being in insane rarefied.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Somebody else direct if. If Billy Bob Thornton directed or Tim Robbins directed it, it would be their. They're crowning Jews.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, indeed.

[David Sims]

But, David, finish your thought here.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, our guest, of course, is Jordan.

[David Sims]

Hoffman from the Messenger. As you might remember, in our last episode, Yentle from New York City talked about your exciting new job. An actual physical newspaper.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Can I. Yeah. So this is kind of funny. First of all, the last I'm Only.

[David Sims]

Teing you up for this because you said you wanted to.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Well, the last time I. First of all, the last time I was in this room was. Was among the first times this room was used to record this podcast.

[David Sims]

I don't think that's true.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It was one of the. It was one of the first. And I'll tell you why. I know.

[David Sims]

For Yentle.

[Griffin Newman]

For Yentle. It was on the early stage.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Because I watched. No, here's what happened during the opening bit before we recorded, when we were waiting for Griffin to show up.

[David Sims]

I don't know what you're talking about.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I watched David pay his first rent check.

[David Sims]

The podcaster who wasn't there. Okay, interesting.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And he. And then he had to be like, oh, Christ, what's the rent on this place? And he had to, like, look it up.

[Griffin Newman]

It may not have been the first.

[David Sims]

So what did.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I know? You were looking it up. But the.

[David Sims]

I wanted 22.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It doesn't.

[David Sims]

He's.

[Griffin Newman]

Don't worry about Jordan.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Let me get to the point. There's the point.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it was 2023, and we. We moved in here. I watched.

[David Sims]

But I'm saying that series kicks off. I can't remember 2023. Calendar year.

[Griffin Newman]

No, it kicks off the 24.

[David Sims]

So then it would have been fall 23. So I think we did move in here in 22, right?

[Jordan Hoffman]

We did.

[David Sims]

I think David just doesn't know.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He doesn't know how much the rent cost.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm sorry, I. You know. Yeah, I was.

[Jordan Hoffman]

But my point is he knows the.

[David Sims]

Rent is too damn high, but he doesn't.

[Jordan Hoffman]

When I came here, I. Breakfast, dinner, you know, I try to do it at home, do it at home in the morning, but sometimes the call of nature. And I did have to go into your restroom.

[David Sims]

The morning constitutional.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I had to drop anchor in your restroom. And what happened when you weren't here yet and we were waiting and I.

[David Sims]

Went, this sounds impossible, but go on.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And I was. I was just floored, absolutely floored by the amount. And I recorded this amount of spare toilet paper in the restroom, and I dropped that.

[David Sims]

I had just like $30. I bought, like, Right. Because there was a. There was a Target promotion, Costco or something. I got like, 372 packs.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Of Ultra Gent.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Oh, yeah.

[David Sims]

You have to go ultraviolet.

[Jordan Hoffman]

But my point is this. Not to be disgusting or scatological, but I just went back to the restroom, only for a number one this time. And I went back in there, and I was flabbergasted to how much of that toilet paper still remains?

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, I'm not shocked. You were live here, like, so, like, it's not.

[Jordan Hoffman]

That's like the Beatles. You hang out and help. You know, you hang out here all the time.

[David Sims]

Clear. That's not like, oh, we still have a lot left from what I bought in 2023. Every time Target offers that deal, I jump on it.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, so Billy Bob Thorpe.

[Jordan Hoffman]

No, no, no, no. What? I really. The real reason.

[David Sims]

How dare you.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I mean, the real reason. The last time I was here, I was working at this other company and I was all like, hey, guys, guys. You know, I took the day off work. You got to let me promote this new company.

[David Sims]

It's exciting.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Bring the paper back. The literal paper. I'm working for a new news outlet. You got to let me puke on the fingers. It'll make my bosses real happy. And you graciously allowed me to waste the listeners time. And I talked about the glory of this new outlet. And then two weeks later they folded.

[Griffin Newman]

And, well, I feel like. Didn't they have like one week where they were like, AI slop only? And then they're like, forget it. Just fucking turn it.

[David Sims]

What if we print the slop? It was sort of clickbait. What a finger bait.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It was a very. It was a very public dissolution. I wrote an article about it. The messenger was the name of the news outlet. And I wrote something funny about how it was a disaster to work for. So now I'm here to promote a new, new outlet.

[David Sims]

And you know what? I like your boss a lot better this time.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Oh, and David knows all about it. And now you're going to know about it. To the listeners. It's a new substack.

[David Sims]

Here we go.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Run by me, where I publish what I want to publish. And it's all great.

[David Sims]

The only name I can trust is journalism.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Maybe it's called Hofstack. H O F F stack.

[David Sims]

Yeah. This is Hof to table journalism.

[Griffin Newman]

Jordan.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I enjoy your substack.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Thank you.

[Griffin Newman]

Which wonderful. It has very much that right. All of Jordan's interest. But you got to get back to reviewing New York City's library.

[David Sims]

This here. I know you promised if you. If you go look at the substack, it's promise you did a movie, music and New York City libraries as part of the sales pitch.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, Sufyan was like, oh, doing all 50 states, baby. And you were like, I'm doing every New York City public library. I'm going to get in there and review the location and I did it. I know you moved to New Jersey.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Well, that's the, that's the punchline is I don't live in New York City anymore.

[Griffin Newman]

But I. You got to catch that bus, baby.

[David Sims]

So fucking NJ Library.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I was.

[David Sims]

Tell me about them. I know nothing.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Well, even less the books are on the different shelves over there. No. So I started doing write ups of the different branch libraries. You know what, which one has a smelling problem? Which one has a this where you know, where you could sleep? And then I moved. So I haven't been doing as much of that. But I'm doing my usual shtick. Movies and life in general. And please, for the love of God, I would hope that if 2% of the people listening. Well, let's bump it up. 12% of the people listening. How many listeners. 16% of the people listening could, could get a monthly subscription. It would really help my bottom line.

[David Sims]

Just asking for 19%. That's all he's asking.

[Griffin Newman]

Subscribe to Jordan.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It's not expensive. It's $5 a month. It's less than whatever. Get rid. You're not watching Land, man.

[David Sims]

You're not watching land.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Hofstack.substack yeah, forget about your Paramount plus landman. You got to watch Landman.

[David Sims]

And look, we will settle for 22% of our list.

[Griffin Newman]

You Trek fan. Surely Paramount plus is one of your.

[David Sims]

Why are you throwing them under the bus?

[Jordan Hoffman]

That's a good point. That's a very good point.

[Griffin Newman]

Keep them around.

[Jordan Hoffman]

How great is Strange New Worlds? It's so good. I love that show.

[Griffin Newman]

I love that show too. I just, I have a lot of concerns about, you know, this new Starfleet Academy show.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, I'm, I, I'm suspicious.

[David Sims]

Starfleet Academy, the Giamatti, Holly Hunter, Tatiana.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, Tatiana, our friend of the show will be on it. It's just, you know, Star Trek Discovery.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He's gonna. Everything David's about to say Jordan sort of coast. I agree.

[David Sims]

David's baby, Joey.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, Star Trek Discovery when it was launched was like, hey, it's set sort of in the Kirk era. Even though it's much, you know, glitzier, modern looking and you know, everyone was a little like, okay, you know, because like they've never really broached like what happened after like Star Trek Voyager essentially. You know, like we've never seen more of the sort of Star Trek timeline. Right.

[David Sims]

Voyager is still the latest thing in the timeline.

[Griffin Newman]

I think Star Trek Nemesis technically was the last thing.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Basically the answer to your question is sure, yeah. Voyager is the end.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, then obviously we had to Abrams movies which were distinctly in their own timeline and all that stuff.

[David Sims]

The Kelvin timeline.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And then as Star Trek Discovery was set in the Kirk era and then the ship zapped to the 30th century or whatever the it is for the last sort of two and a half seasons of that show. And it was set in this kind of like far future where Starfleet is lost and they kind of rebuild it and blah blah, blah, blah. And I sort of got it as like okay fine, you're setting it in your own little corner where you're not really going to fuck with anything. Quadrant indeed. And now the Starfleet Academy show is also set in the 30th century and is like following on from that. And I'm like, can we not just do Star Trek? Yeah, they're going strange new worlds. Of course the show we like is the one show where it's like, what if there was a spaceship and it went on missions that were kind of like episodes of the week and the crew had interpersonal dynamics. Everyone's like, we love this.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Do this.

[Griffin Newman]

And then they keep not doing it.

[David Sims]

This also remains my frustration with Star wars where I'm just like, why do we keep going back to the same corners? Specifically in between.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Tight with areas in between others. They've got like a little like wedge that they're like, you know, like a little shim. I think there's two years here. There's a week Eby like what was going on there.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

An hour where Luke isn't accounted for.

[Griffin Newman]

And I know just to acknowledge my listeners. I know Star Trek Picard was set after, you know, it was where I want it to be. But of course that show was terrible. Was and was very backward looking because it's about all the old guys going like, okay, one more, you know, like Jonathan Frakes getting on the treadmill.

[Jordan Hoffman]

So he can kind of be like.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, you know, let's, let's put some green black back in the gray beard, whatever.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It's. It was pretty rough.

[Griffin Newman]

And then the, the wonderful animated show.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Very funny.

[Griffin Newman]

Was so. And, and it was canon and it made an effort to be but like it was obviously, you know, silly, you know.

[David Sims]

But I've heard that Star Trek is now a priority at the sky downs paradox.

[Griffin Newman]

The Lizard King David will be creating a new Star Trek.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, they're just going to wipe the slate clean, I think with I, you know, I don't, I can't predict what the hell they're Going to do. But what. Everything David just said is. Was correct. Which is a rarity, by the way. Everything he said.

[Griffin Newman]

Two Star Trek fans agreeing about, like.

[David Sims]

The direction of the show.

[Griffin Newman]

Also unusual.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. This new show, they've been wanting to do a Starfleet academy since the 90s, you know, and it's a great idea.

[David Sims]

Was always pushing for it really hard. Right. Didn't he write those books about it?

[Jordan Hoffman]

No, that was something. He wrote other books.

[Griffin Newman]

Tech War.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He wrote. He wrote. He wrote some Star with Judith and Garfield. Reeves Stevens were the actual authors.

[David Sims]

But did he write books that were Kirk and Spock meeting for the first time?

[Jordan Hoffman]

No, he wrote books where he dies in Star Trek Generations and then he comes back.

[David Sims]

I remember that when the JJ movie came out, Shatner kept saying this was my idea, and I kept pitching it to Paramount. I wanted to direct.

[Griffin Newman]

Shatner saying stuff is, I want it.

[David Sims]

To direct prequel Young Spock and Kirk.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Right. Well, it's possible that that is. There is a new.

[David Sims]

I don't know.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I never read his books.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, it's crazy how they might end up making another, like, new Star Trek movie.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

That William Shatner will still be alive and not involved with. Where he'll be like, I'm ready for my cameo. And they'll be like, oh, we're going through a tunne.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Anyway, the Starfleet Academy thing is upsetting because they're going in with one arm. They're going in with one arm tied behind their back, though, because they're connecting it to Discovery, which they should. It's an original sin. They just shouldn't be doing it. But Paul Giamatti plays a new alien race that we've never seen.

[David Sims]

Good.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Holly Hunter is the head. She's the headmistress. She's the, you know, great. The Dumbledore, if you will, and others. And then a bunch of hotels, young.

[Griffin Newman]

Kids running around, you know, like, that's fine.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Great.

[Griffin Newman]

School stinks. That is always. Because, like, there.

[David Sims]

Ben raises some interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

For, like, 40, 50 years, people have been like, when do we do our Starfleet Academy show? And I do feel like it's always bumped up against, like, doesn't school stink? Like, yeah, you know, they have to be at a school. They can't, like, go on adventures.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Space school. They're gonna, like. They're gonna, like, go with, like, you know, they're quantum realm and algebra. You could do space algebra.

[David Sims]

But it is telling that I feel like this Facebook JJ movie got through Starfleet Academy really fast.

[Griffin Newman]

But I mean.

[David Sims]

And yeah, it has Three very fun scenes.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Trying to make this like Riverdale. They're gonna be all stupid each other. Space. Stop. It's gonna be great. Maybe zero gravity.

[Ben Hosley]

Maybe space wedgie.

[Griffin Newman]

That could be fun. I just want another show about a, you know, ship that.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Well, I think. God bless strange new worlds. You know, it's.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, it's doomed. It's. It's. They're wrapping it up.

[Jordan Hoffman]

No, they have.

[Griffin Newman]

I know they have another.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And the next season and. But, you know, Diana, I mean, we got a lot of good.

[David Sims]

Sector 31 put some new kind of blood in the veins. Didn't that get people rearing for more?

[Jordan Hoffman]

What is the worst thing in Star. The worst thing. The worst show movie. What is the worst Star Wars?

[David Sims]

Me. I'm. I'm a bit of a neophyte in this area.

[Griffin Newman]

In Star Wars.

[David Sims]

Star Wars.

[Griffin Newman]

He's trying to save that section 31.

[David Sims]

Got it, got it, got it.

[Jordan Hoffman]

What is the worst element of Star Wars?

[David Sims]

Good question. I mean, I've largely tapped out of the last couple years.

[Griffin Newman]

I still think the worst thing is Episode nine, which you liked, of course. And we were raving. Episode 9. We Were Walking out of that screening and you were like, it had spaceships in it, dude.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Is better than Episode two.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not.

[David Sims]

Well, no, wait a second. No, I fundamentally.

[Griffin Newman]

Episode two.

[Jordan Hoffman]

What's wrong with Episode nine? They running around.

[Griffin Newman]

Nothing. Exactly.

[Jordan Hoffman]

They go. They go in like quicksand. Chewbacca shows up. Land. You know what?

[Griffin Newman]

All of those things do happen.

[David Sims]

Those things. By the way, I can point to some other movies you might really like.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Mock this.

[David Sims]

I got a couple movies with sand and Chewbacca that I strongly recommend. Great.

[Jordan Hoffman]

There's a moment in. In the. The ninth Star wars when the stormtrooper flies and they go. They fly now. And that's become a meme. Is like, bad that when the stormtrooper flew, I was like, holy. That's a flying stormtrooper. This is cool. I was in the moment. I thought it was great. I'm.

[David Sims]

I'm moderately surprised that you're the first episode as much of a nine Defender.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I think it's fine. But.

[David Sims]

But I am extraordinarily surprised you're not an Episode two defender. Episode two is full of Hoffman coded.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Well, there's. Which, like. Well, there's the.

[Griffin Newman]

It's got the diner with 50 space.

[David Sims]

Dinos in his own war movie investigating a rain planet with a clone.

[Jordan Hoffman]

You know, maybe I meant to say Episode three.

[Griffin Newman]

Fine.

[Jordan Hoffman]

That one's very boring. Number two is fine. And also Timothy. Timothy. Natalie Portman wearing.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm sorry, Timothy went to Natalie Portman.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Kind of similar, you know, Timothy Portman, whatever. They have a similar vibe. No, at first she's wearing an outfit and then the outfit gets ripped in half.

[Griffin Newman]

Two for the first time in Hoffman battle.

[David Sims]

How is that Hoffman?

[Jordan Hoffman]

No, that's good. I meant to say episode three, the third, the prequel. I've never. I fall asleep every time. It's very boring.

[Griffin Newman]

The whole thing with you, right, is that Star wars. As much as you're a nerd who likes space, like you're. No, it was never your. Your primary thing.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I listen. I remember the first time I ever saw the first Star Wars. It was thrilling. I love Star Wars. Jabba the Hud, of course. Obviously I was in the first one.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, I just remember that Jordan and I both like Yubn.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I love Yubnub. And I love all the jizz. I love all the jizz music. I love Jabba's palace songs.

[David Sims]

You've never wailed though, right? You just appreciate.

[Jordan Hoffman]

No, I was not a jizz. Not a jizz whaler. But I'm gonna say I. I just enjoyed a nice shot of jizz and.

[Griffin Newman]

Shot a jizz.

[David Sims]

Night before bed, you pour yourself three fingers of whiskey and a shot of jizz.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, it's very healthy.

[David Sims]

But the, the David's doing the motion which by the way, I'm not realizing does kind of look like something else. Yeah.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I think though that the Jabba's palace scene of the third Star wars movie is just when I saw that when I was out. It's outrageous. Nine shit. It's so good.

[David Sims]

I have long contended that is my favorite thing in all of Star wars is Jabba. The Jabba palace sequence. The first 20, 30 minutes of return of the Jedi. I would live in that. That is my favorite shit in the universe. I wouldn't want to live there.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It's so hard.

[David Sims]

I want to live in this. Watch.

[Griffin Newman]

Come on, let's.

[David Sims]

I don't want to rent a room in the back.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It's terrible. The dancing girl goes and gets eate by the monster in the basement. And then hardworking. It's a living frog and all that.

[Griffin Newman]

He's always eating a living frog. Salacious, Salacious Crumb. Now Salacious Crumb is a truth teller. He pushes boundaries. Sometimes he misses.

[David Sims]

Did you see him on Kill Tony recently?

[Griffin Newman]

There's just so many like dumb comedy podcasting jokes you could make about Salacious Crumb. Like most Austin based comedy podcasters basically are Salacious Crumb.

[David Sims]

Did you see Salacious Crumb went on a Breakfast Club and talked about why he doesn't eat pussy. I'm just gonna keep making jokes of Salacious Crumb doing other podcasts.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He is Salacious.

[Griffin Newman]

Billy Bob Thornton, Billy Bob the 96. Billy Bob Thorne in Sling Blade. He does wins for sling blade in 96. And so he starts to show up.

[David Sims]

And by the way, he's got, like, you got popping in and Tombstone. You have one false move, which he obviously wrote.

[Griffin Newman]

Like I said, you have a different proposal.

[David Sims]

He does the Sling Blade short film, but then a dead man. But then obviously, yes. 96 is one word.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm doing this.

[David Sims]

Do this.

[Griffin Newman]

97. He's got stuff that he clearly made pre Oscar. He's in Soul. He's good. He's in Uturn.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I love the Apostle.

[Griffin Newman]

That's what I'm saying.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Great.

[David Sims]

98. You're right. It's the first 98 booking with the Oscar in hand.

[Griffin Newman]

Simple Plan, which he gets another nomination for. He's wonderful. Armageddon, where he's German, of course. Down in the space base. Telling everyone where to point their drills.

[David Sims]

Right. And he was nominated for four Oscars for that. He was nominated in all four acting categories.

[Griffin Newman]

He's good at that movie. He's in the Stephen Gyllenhaal film Homegrown.

[David Sims]

Is that a movie that you love? I could see that being. Oh, no, no.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't think Jordan's seen it. It's such a forgotten movie. And he's fantastic, of course, as the James Carville of Primary Colors.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yes, that's good, too.

[Griffin Newman]

99. Of course, one of the most forgotten movies ever made. Air traffic controller, sex comedy. Pushing Tin with Thornton, Cusack, Blanchett, Jolie, like, just.

[David Sims]

That's the most insane. It was a sex comedy movie that turned into a sex comedy playing out in our tabloid as he started pushing Tin with Jolie.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Who directed?

[Griffin Newman]

Mike directed it. I think it was his follow up to Donnie Brasco.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. Weird movie. I saw that.

[Griffin Newman]

Pushing 10. It's not good.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I saw it in the theaters and thought it was okay.

[Griffin Newman]

It's just one of those things where everyone was like, everyone wants to learn the lives. And it's like, no. No one actually cares.

[David Sims]

It's everyone figures brothers made, Right? Who did Cheers and Taxi?

[Griffin Newman]

They wrote it.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Glennon Charles. Right, right.

[David Sims]

And Mike Newell directed it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Oh, that's. And they. That's kind of dark because didn't them one of them die in 9 11?

[Griffin Newman]

I thought it was the Other Frasier guy who died.

[David Sims]

I think so.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Wasn't it David angel who died?

[David Sims]

Sounds correct.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

They're both still.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It's about near plane crashes.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, that's true, but neither of them died.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

I will just point this out.

[David Sims]

Just another thing that, you know, any of our younger listeners might not understand. That's important context for this movie. For the first couple years, the 2000s, the world was obsessed with Billy Bob Thornton's sex life.

[Griffin Newman]

That is true.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I thought you were gonna say 9 11, because I actually do have some 911 worth noting.

[Griffin Newman]

98.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He.

[Griffin Newman]

He gave good performances in movies. 99. Less so. But he does at least become famous boyfriend to Angelina Jolie.

[David Sims]

Right. And there's like, two years of them showing up on red carpets saying weird and being like, we can't stop.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Didn't they keep each other's blood in a vial around their neck?

[David Sims]

Just a drop. Just.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Would you keep Angelina Jolie. His blood in a vial around your.

[Griffin Newman]

Do whatever. 1999, Angeli told me to do Salacious 2000 of he wrote the Gift and of course, all the Pretty Horses kind of blows up in his face. His Scarlet Johansson directed. No, no, she's not.

[David Sims]

No, that's a horse whisperer.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Oh, I got my horses confused.

[David Sims]

Sorry.

[Griffin Newman]

So that's a bit of a Rocky year. But in 2001, this year, he's fantastic in Monster's Ball. He's fantastic in this film. He's fantastic. As Griffin has noted many times in Barry Levinson's Bandit. One must acknowledge, he does also write and direct the film Daddy and Them, which I've never seen, which he's also the star of Jim Varney's Last Theme. Texas Comedy.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And then it's like 2002, he didn't really do anything waking up in reno. Yeah. But 2003, he had bad Santa.

[Jordan Hoffman]

That movie's great.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Which is another one of those things where he's like. Where it's like, he's making this work. Right? You know, like, and it was a hit.

[David Sims]

And suddenly you were like, is this guy like mainstream comedy?

[Griffin Newman]

Kind of do whatever he wants, even though he looks. Right?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Like he looks.

[David Sims]

And he's like, levity. You're like, bad Santa. Love actually intolerable cruelty. Right. And Top of Cruelty Love actually are both kind of extended cameos.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. But he kind of pops them very funny and bows.

[David Sims]

And you're like, has he unlocked a new chamber? Is there a new era? And then, like, Friday Night Lights is.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, he's fantastic in Friday Night Agreed.

[David Sims]

And then the album never seen. But everyone always says that he is the one good part of that.

[Griffin Newman]

Played Davy Crockett in the Alamo and.

[David Sims]

He plays him as a coward.

[Griffin Newman]

And then 2005, he had ice Harvest. A movie you stick up for.

[David Sims]

I stick up for really hard.

[Griffin Newman]

The Harold Ramos movie.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And this is where it starts to just go away. Well, there was just a few years there where it was like, what can I do?

[David Sims]

But that run of just being like, we gotta replicate the bad Santa magic. People love Billy Bob Thornton. Being an.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I just remember him is a little bit coarse when he's like, she ain't get a rat for a week.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the best.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I mean, it's just a little bit.

[David Sims]

Of a shocking joke, but it's bad news. Bear school for scoundrels. Mr. Woodcock.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Oh, yeah, yeah. This is where.

[Ben Hosley]

This is around the time when the. He starts the Box Match Masters. Let's not forget.

[David Sims]

Yes, the Box Masters was his group. That was he.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Which caused the fuss in Canada with. With.

[David Sims]

Yeah, right. The big.

[Griffin Newman]

They've released 17 albums.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I know.

[Ben Hosley]

I was gonna share that.

[Griffin Newman]

Isn't that the big thing? Crazy.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Well, did he have like 17?

[David Sims]

Did he interview? That's part of his thing is like, we released four albums this year. Why are we talking about my movie work?

[Griffin Newman]

He should have said like, well, maybe stop releasing so many albums just to explain about it on this show.

[David Sims]

Not talking about it here. Then when we already did Primo Levy over here that everyone's listened to every.

[Ben Hosley]

Are you just doing the bit where now you guys are replicating the interview?

[David Sims]

Probably.

[Jordan Hoffman]

The interview is great because the guy G. I can't say his name. Gian. Him. He. He stands up for himself so well, he's like, look, can I explain this.

[David Sims]

Quickly before you say this?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I really am putting a one minute time limit on this.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Okay, do it.

[Griffin Newman]

I really am.

[David Sims]

Billy Bor went on with his band and in the introduction, Gian Gi goes like, box. Boxmasters have done this and 14 albums in the last two years.

[Griffin Newman]

D d D Was it a Canadian show? Keep going, keep going, keep going.

[David Sims]

That doesn't count. And then he's like. And you might recognize their basist for his film work, Billy Bob Thorn Thornton. And then he starts exclusively asking questions about the album and the music. And the other bandmates respond. And Billy Bob Thornton every time says, like, when I was a kid, I like to paint models of monsters. And he's like, oh, okay. Then he'll like circle around and Ask another question. I'll be like, so tell me about the writing on this album. And he's like, sometimes I would go on Boxcar Race. And then like 40 minutes in, he's like, okay, what's going on here?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. So finally Gian is like.

[David Sims]

And he said, well, apparently you're treating my music like it's a hobby, so why shouldn't I talk about my other hobbies? And he's like, what did I do to anger you? And he says, you were explicitly told not to talk about my acting work. And he was like, I think it's relevant in the context of an introduction. I have no questions planned.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And Billy Bob Thorton just had flipped out him.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He's such a dick. And the other guys in the band.

[David Sims]

Famous Monsters of film land.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, he's talking about, like, famous on. And you can watch the video of the other guys in the band going like, why are we with this? Oh, yeah, because he's famous. Because, by the way, nobody on planet Earth would ever listen to a game.

[David Sims]

He says. But he's just like, would you ask Tom Petty if he takes music seriously?

[Jordan Hoffman]

That's the best part. Because if Tom Petty wrote and directed a movie, you'd for sure ask him about damn Torpedoes.

[David Sims]

And by the way, the Santa sketch from I think you should leave his door. Direct parody of that.

[Griffin Newman]

I love how you said that. Like, it's like, oh, of course I think you should leave. Which is very relevant to the men who wasn't there.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

No. The reason I hate talking about this is that Gene Gameshi sucks. Thornton wins. And so it's like, he wins in.

[Jordan Hoffman]

The long run, but not that guy.

[Griffin Newman]

Jean Gi who sucks on the record.

[David Sims]

David, how dare you not let me lay the table for this? For you to make this point. I just alley ooped.

[Griffin Newman]

I hate that guy.

[David Sims]

I've allowed you to make this point now.

[Griffin Newman]

And we have now, twice, if not more, on this podcast. Been like, he really got fucked over by Billy Bob Thor. And I'm like, good, he should get fucked over again by him now. I'd pay 30 bucks to watch it.

[David Sims]

Okay, like, not 50, like on a POV.

[Griffin Newman]

Like a PPV. Thornton is rude and kind of gnarly in a microphone.

[David Sims]

What if Jane Gmeshi starts an only fans artistically respectable people.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no.

[David Sims]

Cut him down to size.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I will not contribute money to him.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I think now it's true. We've talked about this enough. Cuz you know what? You know what's great? Great?

[Griffin Newman]

What's great?

[Jordan Hoffman]

The man, who wasn't there.

[David Sims]

Ben. What's up, Griff? This is an ad break. Yeah, and I'm just. I'm. This isn't a humble brag, it's just a fact of the matter. Despite you being on mic all oftentimes, when sponsors buy ad space on this podcast, the big thing they want is personal host endorsement.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[David Sims]

They love it. They get a little bonus ban on the ad read. But technically that's not what they're looking for. But something very different is happening right now.

[Ben Hosley]

That is true.

[David Sims]

We had a sponsor come in and say we are looking for the coveted Ben Hosley endorsement. This is laser targeted. The product we have copied. That app asks, is the product a porch movie?

[Griffin Newman]

It certainly is.

[David Sims]

And what is today's episode sponsored by.

[Griffin Newman]

The Toxic Adventure, the new Toxic Avenger.

[Ben Hosley]

Movie is coming to theaters August 29th.

[Griffin Newman]

Macon Blair's remake of Reimagining. Reimagining, whatever. A reboot of the Toxic Avenger.

[David Sims]

Now, David and I have not gonna see it yet, but they sent you a screener link.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I'm gonna it.

[David Sims]

We're excited to see it. But Ben, you text us last night. This rules it.

[Ben Hosley]

It honks. Yeah, it's so great.

[Griffin Newman]

Let me read you the cast list here in. In billing order as they asked, which I really appreciate. Peter Dinklage, Jacob Tremblay, Taylor Page. With Elijah Wood and Kevin Bacon.

[David Sims]

Tremblay is Toxi's son.

[Ben Hosley]

His stepson.

[David Sims]

His stepson. Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Wade Goose.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Great name.

[David Sims]

Give us the takes. We haven't heard them yet.

[Ben Hosley]

Okay, you got fucking. Dinklage is fantastic.

[Griffin Newman]

He's talk.

[Ben Hosley]

Plays it with so much heart.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

It's such a lovely performance. Bacon is in the pocket too, man.

[David Sims]

He's the bad guy.

[Ben Hosley]

He's the bad guy. There's a lot of him shirtless.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Ben Hosley]

Looking like a snack.

[David Sims]

David. Sizzling. Yep. And then Elijah Wood plays like a dang ass freak.

[Ben Hosley]

He certainly does. He's having a lot of fun.

[David Sims]

Tell us some things you liked about the movie. Okay.

[Ben Hosley]

Well, I'm a Jersey guy. I just gotta say the original movie was shot in the town where I went to high school.

[Griffin Newman]

Trauma. Yes. Yes, that's right. The original film.

[David Sims]

Yep.

[Ben Hosley]

I grew up watching Toxie and Troma movies on porches.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Ben Hosley]

With my sleazy and sticky friends. It informs so much of my sensibility.

[David Sims]

Your friends like Junkyard Dog and Headbanger?

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah, exactly.

[David Sims]

Making Toxic Crusader jokes.

[Ben Hosley]

And so when I heard that they were doing this new instead of installment, I was really emotionally invested.

[David Sims]

It was in limbo for a while before our friends at Cineverse rescued it and are now releasing it uncut. But I feel like there have been years of you being very excited at the prospect, but also a little weary. They're playing with fire here. Yeah. It's just.

[Ben Hosley]

It's something that means a lot to me. And they knocked it out of the park.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Okay.

[Ben Hosley]

It somehow really captured that sensibility, that sense of humor, even. Just that, like, lo fi, scrappy kind of nature that's inherent in all of the Troma movies in the original Toxie movies. And they have, like, updated in. In this way that it was just. I was so pleased with it.

[Griffin Newman]

It's gooey.

[David Sims]

Sufficiently gooey.

[Ben Hosley]

Tons of blood, tons of goo. Great action. It's really funny. It just.

[David Sims]

It.

[Griffin Newman]

It hit.

[Ben Hosley]

Hits all of the sensibilities that you would want in an updated version.

[Griffin Newman]

Cineverse Last year released Terrifier 3. Unrated.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Big risk for them there. I feel like it's a very, very intense movie and one of the more interesting.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Theatrical box office phenomenons the last five years.

[Griffin Newman]

Want to make that happen again?

[David Sims]

Here.

[Griffin Newman]

Tickets are on sale right now. Advanced sales really matter for movies like this, so. So if y' all were planning on seeing Toxic Avenger, go ahead and buy those tickets. Please go to toxicavenger.com blankcheck to get your tickets. Blank check one word.

[David Sims]

In theaters August 29th.

[Griffin Newman]

Yup.

[David Sims]

And Ben, it just says here in the copy. Wants to call out that Elijah Wood plays a weird little guy who says, summon the Nuts. Can you tell us anything about that moment without spoiling it?

[Ben Hosley]

Summon the Nuts is in reference to a psychotic nu metal band.

[David Sims]

Hell, yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

Who are also mercenaries.

[David Sims]

Cool.

[Ben Hosley]

And drive a van with a skeleton giving two fingies up on the grill. And that's all I'll say.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Ben Hosley]

And they are the most dang ass freaks of dang ass freaks.

[David Sims]

I'm excited to see it. And your endorsement, I think, carries more weight than anyone else's in the world on this.

[Ben Hosley]

Seriously, get your tickets now. Go to toxicadventure.com blankcheck do it.

[Griffin Newman]

Do it. In 2001, the Coen Brothers released their ninth film, The man who Wasn't There, which is, of course, the 18th film in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

[David Sims]

But is the Mini wasn't there ever gonna reappear? Or is he just sitting on the bench with Star Fox? Avengers Assemble could put some hair in.

[Griffin Newman]

The dirt when the Coen brothers are making the Hudsucker Proxy. This is the whole thing with the Coen Brothers is anytime they make a new movie, everyone's like, oh, what'd you think of it? They always had their story.

[David Sims]

And this one addressing. There was an old timey 50s barbershop poster with all the model kids.

[Ben Hosley]

Kids.

[Griffin Newman]

They said 1940s style haircuts.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And they said, we started to think about the guy who did all these haircuts and we wrote this character of a barber and it all came out of these pictures of haircuts.

[David Sims]

This movie feels like a bit that then starts being taken seriously.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a little bit their thing.

[David Sims]

Totally. But it feels like an improv run of like, who's the funniest guy to be doing these haircuts? And you're like, what if it's like a Billy Bob Thornton type who talks as if he's in a noir? Right, right, right. The stoic cigarette smok sociopath and really.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Like Albert Camus character, but just like in the 50s and. But you know, the, the working title of this movie was the Barber, which is cool if you know it and watch it again because they say the barber like 25 times in this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Is that a better title? I do like the title and I do think it's appropriate. Like it makes sense.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I think the Barber might have been.

[Griffin Newman]

I think that might be kind of a cool title.

[David Sims]

I think man who Wasn't There is a better title for this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

The Barber sounds like a movie now that stars a 50 something comedian who is kung fu, you know, like a Bob od. And Kirk decided to do an action movie. So like he was just a barber and then he does like barber.

[David Sims]

No, but you and I both know if that movie was made tomorrow, it wouldn't start. Bob Odenkirk and star John Cena. And the premise would be this guy is an everyday barber. Can you believe he secretly has fighting skills?

[Griffin Newman]

John Cena, who I think can be very funny, but like his, his arms are like this because his pecs are so mad. Like he's.

[David Sims]

If more of these were Odin Kirk's, we'd be fine.

[Griffin Newman]

I know.

[David Sims]

You know, like, my problem is these movies where you're just like, Mark's going.

[Griffin Newman]

To play a guy. I'm like, let me guess, he's a sleeper agent.

[Jordan Hoffman]

No, no, no.

[David Sims]

He's a super.

[Griffin Newman]

As a kid.

[David Sims]

You will not believe that this guy can hold a gun.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Did you see the union where he was a union delegate?

[Griffin Newman]

Is that Mark Wahlberg? Yeah, I did not see that one.

[David Sims]

It's terrible timing. Holly Berry.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, yeah, it's Awful. And. And. But he again, he becomes. He saves the day.

[David Sims]

He has made five of these where it's either. Can you believe this guy? Guy's mistaken for.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yes. Now when you say a lot of union jokes, which kind of union are we talking?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Labor unions. Like it's all about. They go to Europe and it's like, ah, the, the Plumbers Guild will help us with this. And then all these plumbers come out.

[David Sims]

And all of them are by Herve Village.

[Griffin Newman]

So, so post Labowski the plumber, the Cohen basically have two scripts ready. They got the barber, they've got O Brother. George Clooney apparently becomes available. So they're like, great, let's do oh Brother. But they go right from that to man who Wasn't There. And it may shock you guys to learn that the sort of pulp novels of the 1940s were a big influence on this. But visually, James M. Kane, etc.

[David Sims]

A thing I love about this movie is that they're like, no, visually, what we were studying were like low budget B sci fi films.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, that's true. That's absolutely.

[David Sims]

Because black and white and shadowy, a lot of people were like, oh, they're just doing like noir riff. And they're like, no, no, there's like a major difference here. There are a lot of gray tones in this. We're not doing the sort of like black dark shadow.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And it's their only black and white movie.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And how many Roger Deacons shot it? Of course. How many black and white movies has Roger Deakins done?

[David Sims]

That's a good question. I wonder how many.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, this was where I, I feel like it was a true novelty when this film came out. Like black and white movies had really, you know, gone out of style. I guess Soderbergh had made one like.

[David Sims]

I'm trying to later.

[Jordan Hoffman]

No, the good German that was after. It was around the same time.

[Griffin Newman]

I know it was, but like was.

[David Sims]

Black and white was a cut of it. Black and it's half color.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Halfway. But that was a decade earlier.

[David Sims]

Edwards. Right. Edwards 95. And that was largely blamed for why the movie like just bottomed out. The same for this one, but obviously very well.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I disagree. I think the re. And I. I wanted to bring this up. I. I remember when this came out and it is a downer of the film. Even though I think it's really very good. It's depressing. This movie came out like five, six weeks after nine. Eleven.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And I remember talking to people like, I like my cinephile friends at the time. And everybody was like, it's so. I can't. Like, I didn't want to see it. So depressing.

[Griffin Newman]

No one was in the mood. You're not wrong.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I think if it came out a year before, it would have been more. More of a substantial hit. Don't you think? No, not at all.

[Griffin Newman]

There's no way this.

[David Sims]

I don't think this movie's ever.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Well, not a hit. But it would have been like nobody.

[Griffin Newman]

Saw if he thought Thanos originally planned.

[David Sims]

This wins best director at con.

[Griffin Newman]

It did it tied with David lynch from Mulholland, dropped Drive. They both. They split the best director prize between 9 11.

[David Sims]

But. So they were right. They were giving it to Mulholland late and man who wasn't there early. Is that right?

[Griffin Newman]

No, it's the same year 2001.

[David Sims]

I always get confused about for some reason thinking Mulholland's 2000.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

No. Liv Ullman gave the Palm d', or, of course to Nanny Moretti's the Son's Room over. Which is an. Okay.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I do like that movie over Mulholland.

[Griffin Newman]

Drive man who wasn't there. Moulin Rouge, the piano teacher and was in. He was in competition where he belongs and where he shall remain. Do you think Shrek 5 will be in competition?

[David Sims]

I hope so. If they have any respect. No, but I think you are right, Jordan, that there's no version of this movie that's like a slam dunk. But I think there's something to not just let like coincredibility. Right. But there's something to that movie playing at can before 9 11. Then the response it got in the release afterwards versus Mulholland being a movie that weirdly in its sort of tapping into a deep existential sadness, felt more welcoming to the public.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

Post 9 11.

[Griffin Newman]

So like, we're gonna look at the box Office game for 2001. It's so fascinating to see. See how unfortunately, you know, Hollywood could not meet the mood of the country because the stuff that they're offering definitely is not. Like, have you recently experienced the national tragedy? Would you like to see a film? We're gonna talk about, like, it's a lot of weird dark.

[David Sims]

In 99 and 2000 you had a lot of very serious movies that did well at the box.

[Griffin Newman]

That's what I'm saying. Like you're.

[David Sims]

You're seeing like they're following that trend.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So. Okay. All right.

[David Sims]

It's the thing that everyone talks about of. Just like Lord of the Rings was the movie that met the moment. And people were like, thank God this thing got made. Yes, we needed this now.

[Griffin Newman]

So obviously, James M. Kane is the biggest inspiration other, but the Kane is the big one because Kane is always about like, a guy makes a bad decision and he just, like, it gets worse. Right. Like, it's. The narrative is always like, Postman Always Rings Twice.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And that kind of. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Now, Mildred Pierce is the most famous James and Kane novel in a way. And of course, there is a Michael Curtis 1945 film that is well regarded, but the Cohen don't like that it. And they initially were like, should we do Mildred Pierce? Should we get the rights? I never knew that because they're kind of fascinated by Glendale, which is where Mildred Pierce is set, and they're like, could we really do the Glendale saga? Because the movie doesn't bother to get into any of that. Of course, Todd Haynes eventually made his miniseries version of it, but instead they were like, now let's write a weird thing about a barber and Shadow of a Dan. Doubt. The Hitchcock film, obviously another big influence, they say.

[David Sims]

I'm not seeing another Deacon's black and white film, by the way.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I wasn't either. I took a. I mean, I don't know some of those early ones, but I doubt they were. I do always forget that he did shoot the Siege and the Company Men. There's the bad ones, but mostly.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And the Buster Scruggs. The final chapter is not in black and white, but it's close. Right. They really play with the.

[David Sims]

It's.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It's desaturated, but it's not black.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah, but as Griffin said, Cold War.

[David Sims]

Shoot Buster Scruggs. He doesn't shoot Buster Scruggs.

[Jordan Hoffman]

That wasn't Deacon.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[Jordan Hoffman]

My God.

[Griffin Newman]

Cold War sci fi.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Is another influence, especially visually, but like the sort of.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Who's a great guy. He shot Lun Davis, too, you said.

[David Sims]

Yeah. As if it was obvious, even though you didn't provide that answer I was giving.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I don't.

[David Sims]

I'm.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm looking at the dossy about this. I'm not looking.

[David Sims]

Multiple conversations at once. Jesus.

[Griffin Newman]

Sci fi saucers, pod people, atom bomb anxiety, all that stuff. Right. You know, like. Right, that's. That.

[David Sims]

You're right. Like, absolutely.

[Griffin Newman]

The film I unfortunately thought about a lot when I saw this film in theaters when I was 15 years old was Pleasantville, because it feels like it's set in Pleasantville and it's got the black and white and everyone is kind of initially just sort of like a Little stiff character before.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And the music in Pleasantville is. Is, of course, Randy Newman, the great Randy Newman. And this music has Beethoven and they're about equal in.

[Griffin Newman]

Remember when you finally engineered the Critics Circle giving Randy Newman a special award, he, like, hurt his hip and he couldn't.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He couldn't make it.

[David Sims]

What year was that?

[Griffin Newman]

It was like two or three years old.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, it was.

[Griffin Newman]

It was.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It was like a year of marriage story.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And I had been campaigning to get him a lifetime achievement award because the New York Film Critics Circle does not give music awards. And I. I took me a couple years to get that Sisyphean thing up the hill.

[Griffin Newman]

It fell on deaf ears a couple times.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And then finally we gave him the award and he had hip surgery and couldn't come from Elvis.

[David Sims]

He was accepted on his behalf because it happened.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He thought he was going to come. At the last minute, he couldn't come. And our chair.

[Griffin Newman]

It was Wazowski, our chair.

[David Sims]

But ironically, in the photos, he's blocked out. You can't see the chair.

[Jordan Hoffman]

When it was Allison Wilmore, who, of course. And she had so much else going on, right. There was a lot of chaos. That year was. Happened to be the best year.

[Griffin Newman]

It was.

[Jordan Hoffman]

That was the Irishman year, right? So much going on. And she. The last one is like, randy Newman's not coming. You're going to talk on his behalf. He's going to send you. His people are going to send you a speech and you're going to read on his behalf. And I'm like, I am.

[Griffin Newman]

When is this kind of a. Like, Jordan, you asked for this.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It was funny.

[Griffin Newman]

You must.

[Jordan Hoffman]

But, you know, it's a funny story because I get up.

[David Sims]

You also must play his Great American Songbook.

[Jordan Hoffman]

That's right. I get that. Well, let me tell you story. And so I get up there and it's the. You know, it happened to be a big year.

[Griffin Newman]

It is like Marty De Niro and Pesci sitting right in front.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I go. Go up on the stage and I go up there and I start doing Hoffman shtick and I kill good. I make a couple of good jokes. Can I tell. Can I repeat one of the jokes?

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, wait. Salacious Grum.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I thought it was a good, you know, Quentin. Quentin was there.

[Griffin Newman]

Quentin Tarantino.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Brad Pitt was there. And so I was like, hey, it's a great night here.

[David Sims]

Tarantino is a big fan of Salacious Podcast, by the way.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It's a great night for the four movies. It's a great night for New York. We're all here.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And I said, listen, I know we're a little nervous because the film critics are here with the stars and you're worrying. Can, can any of. Can maybe we meet one of these people? Can we make an introduction? So I said, don't worry. Hey, Brad Pitt. Don't worry. If you want to meet Eric Cohen. I know him and I can make an introduction. Eric Cohen, for those listening. He's a film critic and what.

[David Sims]

Whatever executive at now.

[Griffin Newman]

He works for Harmony. Korean.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He's a great guy.

[Griffin Newman]

Whatever.

[Jordan Hoffman]

But I picked Eric Cohen. Cohen is a funny name.

[David Sims]

Yes. So.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Got a K. So everybody laughed. Everybody laughed at my joke. Brad Pitt laughed at my joke. But I looked down, front, dead center. Three feet away from me. Spike Lee, Martin Scorsese, Robert Dairo. Stone faced. As if they could not wait to strangle me because I was wasting their time.

[David Sims]

De Niro. Unsupported surprise. Dairo. Unsurprising.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Dairo doesn't strike me as a big laugh.

[David Sims]

Sc and Lee love to laugh. They're youngsters.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I've seen the, the. The. The Friend Fran Lebowitz documentary. All it is is Marty laughing all day.

[Griffin Newman]

You're. You're a. A cousin to Fran Le.

[Jordan Hoffman]

So I. I gotta admit, when I looked down and I saw Marty and Spike dead, I was a little bit upset.

[David Sims]

It's upsetting.

[Griffin Newman]

Sorry.

[Jordan Hoffman]

But I moved on. I moved on. I. I persevered. Nevertheless.

[Griffin Newman]

Maybe Spike had just said, like, I don't like Kundun and Marty been like, well, I don't like how, you know, you know, he got game.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I don't know any who. The point I'm making is this.

[Griffin Newman]

Those came out the same year.

[Jordan Hoffman]

The man who wasn't. So we were talking about the man who wasn't there, right?

[Griffin Newman]

What's the point?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Or yeah. The music in Pleasantville.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, yeah, of course.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Randy Newman style. Classical. The music in the man who Wasn't There. There is not. It's film noir brass. No, it's all Beethoven.

[Griffin Newman]

Beethoven.

[David Sims]

Just you. You couldn't figure out why Spike Lee didn't like your. Your shtick? David, You're British, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Huh?

[David Sims]

You're British. Yeah. Was it not as cup of tea?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Very good.

[Griffin Newman]

That is one of pretty good. It's one of those things where you're like, he's clearly had it in his, you know, he's ready to go. It's not like he's coming up with it off the top of his head. But it's so wonderful that he's like, little impish Mr. He's just like, Mr. McCarthy. He's, like, all in purple.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He's very happy. You know, I just saw it, like, literally last night. There's this new documentary called Mr. Scorsese.

[Griffin Newman]

Which I'm very excited to watch.

[Jordan Hoffman]

By the time this airs, it'll be on Apple plus the whole day Lewis.

[Griffin Newman]

Family is out there this year.

[David Sims]

He's the only equally good films.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Everybody in the whole universe calls Martin Scorsese Marty, of course, obviously, except for Daniel Day Lewis calls him Martin. Never calls him Marty. But Spike Lee has a great moment. Almost as good as. Not my cup of tea. He just goes, thank God for asthma. Such a great quote.

[David Sims]

That's a good.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Because he would have been a priest otherwise. Okay. Man who wasn't there. They didn't write the protagonist with anyone in mind, but of course, they wrote Fran's part for Fran. And they wrote Michael Botolucho's part for Michael Botoluccio. Brian lebowitz. No. Fran McDormand.

[David Sims]

Of course there is. I. I could not find any substantiating of this, but there. There had always been whispers that they had wanted Bill Murray to do this.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, that's a really cool idea.

[David Sims]

It's a cool idea. They would have beaten Lost in Translation to the punch.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I also.

[Griffin Newman]

Obviously, Rushmore's happened already, but, like.

[David Sims]

Yeah, the only reason I. I feel it is worth giving that he was.

[Griffin Newman]

Too busy talking to the other Ethan Cohen writing who wrote Garfield or whatever. Right. The old.

[David Sims]

Yes. Well, I just want to tie this in. Bad Santa came because what are the Requa and Farrar that I always.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

They were, like, obsessed with the Coen brothers.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

And we're like, can we write a movie for you?

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And they said to me, if you're.

[Griffin Newman]

Obsessed with the Coen brothers, you should.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Probably know that you can't.

[Griffin Newman]

But anyway, whatever.

[David Sims]

That was their response.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Right. And they were like, we really. We like writing our own things. And they're like, is there anything we could do? And they're like, look, we've always thought it'd be funny to make a movie about a mall Santa who robs people, but we never actually had.

[Griffin Newman]

It's so funny that they're like, here's our stupidest idea. Do you like it?

[David Sims]

They were like, we never had an idea past that.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, right.

[David Sims]

If you guys want to run with.

[Griffin Newman]

That, we'll take 10 points.

[David Sims]

We'll do something. Right, right. And they, like, brought it to them. And they were like, this is good. We'd produce this. And that movie was designed to star Bill Murray. And Bill Murray famously would never commit to the contract. And it was like on the Runway with Bill Murray for a long time. And Billy Bob Thornton slots in really late.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's that movie this.

[David Sims]

Because of their working relationship on this. I have to think, Think that they.

[Griffin Newman]

Hooked, like, he's, He's. Can you imagine? But, like, they're behind the camera, right? They're setting up a shot on men who wasn't there. He's in his barber smock, and then like, Joel just like, takes a little Santa hat and like, starts holding it over the frame or whatever.

[David Sims]

But I just think both of those movies were designed to be Bill Murray vehicles. It did feel like the Cohen had some desire to do some Bill Murray sad sack thing.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I mean, I. I love the Bill Murray sad sack, obviously, but I. I think it would. It would have been too funny.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it would have been a.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Tougher needle to throw because Bill Murray is inherently funny because he has a funny looking face.

[Griffin Newman]

And beyond that, it's like, I sort of more assume Bill Murray's gonna make wrong decisions and get in trouble. Then Thornton, where you're like, the whole movie, you're like, is this guy like, a psycho? Is this guy, like, a damaged war veteran?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Like, what's going on behind.

[David Sims]

We're gonna get all. We're gonna get to all this. But I, I do think also, like, Thornton has that, like, Humphrey Bogart thing where you're like. Like, this guy is such an unconventional star. Right. Everything about him is, like, odd and prickly, and yet he is just the most compelling guy on screen.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. Like, the thing is, in this movie, you're kind of like, why is this guy such a loser? Like, he's a handsome dude. Like, why doesn't.

[Griffin Newman]

Why isn't he not handsome in a, you know, thing?

[David Sims]

I'm like, in this movie, he is weirdly magnetic and attractive. But you're also like, Billy Bo th could be the worst looking guy in movies, right? Like, it's just he. He's such an extreme visually in terms of his voice, in terms of his affectation. Like, even if you're doing a subversion of the Bill Murray Persona in 2001, you're playing with what is a Persona that we've all gotten our hands around versus Billy Bob Thorton. Despite being at the end of this, like, run that you're talking about, where he was on fire, still, no one could really classify what is the magic with this guy? As evidenced by him being this kind of like, legit austere, like, writer and movie star who also is, like, doing vampiric sex with Angelina Jolie and then like, fucking clocking into, like, you know, fifth leads and blockbuster films and killing it and not seeming above the material. You're like, what is this guy's?

[Jordan Hoffman]

And especially because the first movie most people saw him in was Sling Blade, where he's, you know, not fully transformed. Fully transformed right now. I would imagine at some point we'll talk about how there is a wide interpretation of this movie, that he's a closeted gay man. Man.

[Griffin Newman]

We'll talk about all that. I'm finished. Thornton and the Cohen's had a mutual friend, a producer I don't know who, who apparently would throw super bowl parties. And they met at a Super bowl party. Insane to think about. Joel Cohen considers him one of Hollywood's true chameleons. Despite his reputation as like, oh, he's a Southern guy. He likes French fried potatoes and. But they had known him for a while. They keep saying. They keep stressing like, he was in our orbit. Essentially.

[David Sims]

Makes sense also just from his. His screenwriting days. I mean, similar with Tim Blake Nelson and, you know.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, no, that's. You're right. You're right. Absolutely. And he makes like, you know, like one false move. Feels like a movie the Cohens would love or whatever. Ed Crane. They're like, he's a very passive character. He's mostly reactive. It's so hard for an actor, you know, to throw them a role like that. And like, we just thought Billy Bob would understand, like, the stillness and, like, saying very little and all that.

[Jordan Hoffman]

That.

[Griffin Newman]

And yes, he loved it. And apparently while they were shooting it, he would sort of hint at a smile and he'd be like, too much. Or he would cock and out. He knew I can barely do anything. Thornton's like, this guy and the guy in the Simple Plan are the closest to me. I agree. I'm like, okay, Belly Bob. But okay, that's interesting.

[David Sims]

There's also a lot of space between those two guys. There's a broad spectrum.

[Griffin Newman]

But I kind of, as we noted what he's saying, he seems like an odd interview. So maybe he just kind of says.

[David Sims]

Stu also infamously, like, one of the most neurotic men in Hollywood. Beyond being, like, prickly. Right. And being very hair trigger. There are all these things about Billy Bob Thorton where he's, like, terrified of water. He has, like, a well established phobia of antiques.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Wait, doesn't he not fly.

[Griffin Newman]

He has a crazy OCD that's, like very, as he puts it, geometrical. And there was an incident on set where he had to, like, drive around the set a certain number of times before he went to the Coffee Bean. And he's like, fortunately, the Cohen were, like, completely amused by this. Not annoying, but it's like one of.

[David Sims]

These things where, like, you know, you read it online and you're like, that's not true. And then you look for the interview where he dispels it, and he'll go on some morning drivetime show, and they'll be like, now, I read somewhere that you have a phobia of antiques. And he's like, yes, I do. I don't like being surrounded by old. You know what, Billy? He's like, I get hives. It freaks me out.

[Griffin Newman]

You kind of get it.

[David Sims]

They're bad spirits. Creepy. You know, Like, I know there was a whole. To do. Like, there's a.

[Griffin Newman]

There's a big. Like, they take a blindfold off from on, like.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Like, no grandfather clock.

[David Sims]

It's like one of those things he's, like, very severe about. Right. Like, he's not like. Yeah, I know. It's kind of embarrassing. His WTF is fascinating because Marin's kind of, like, going through his reputation with him and, like, his sense of defensiveness, you know, and, like, all of this sort of stuff. And he basically just keeps being like, I'm like an ugly, dorky kid. I don't want all this attention. Why are people talking about me?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Don't be in the movies.

[David Sims]

Exactly. He has that inner conflict.

[Jordan Hoffman]

What is your illogical fear in life? Yeah. Like what. What freaks you out? That shouldn't. What's your grandfather clock to Billy Bob Thornton?

[David Sims]

Eggs.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Much discussed on this podcast.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I have a similar revulsion to being in a room with an egg. Any.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Any style.

[Griffin Newman]

Obviously.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Once it's cracked.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Okay. What about you, David Sims?

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, I don't know. Obviously, not finishing the dossier is my big fear. Obviously. This is their first collaboration with friends.

[David Sims]

10,000 you the list after the episode.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, sure. Fine. Francis McDorman since Fargo.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Which is.

[Griffin Newman]

And she's very much like, I am here to play, like, an image, you know, she's like, I'm not an important character.

[David Sims]

Although I do think she's very good.

[Jordan Hoffman]

She's great.

[Griffin Newman]

She's. She's.

[David Sims]

She has more to do in this than I remembered.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, because she's in a lot of, like, you know, Gandolfini. This is like that sort of early Sopranos has just hit phase where he's.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Still doing the voice.

[Griffin Newman]

He's, he's. He's closer to Tony baby mouth kind of thing. And well, he eats during a scene and anytime Gin eats, I just think it turns like, like the.

[David Sims]

But my memory of this film is so much that like you know, the Entertainment Weekly previews and everything, you know, the long lead previews before 911 and everything. The hype on this movie was like Gandalfini. This is his first big movie move since Sopranos in a Cohen's film. This feels like a perfect tee up to a supporting actor nom. And here's Frances McDormand. She hasn't worked with him since Fargo when she won best actress. Perfect tee up to a supporting actress Nam. And then the movie comes out and people are like, oh, they really don't have that much.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I mean they're both good.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Shalhoub is amazing.

[David Sims]

Saloob is incredible.

[Griffin Newman]

And like I remember him having brief.

[David Sims]

Sort of like they tried AFI nomination the only year that the AFI did a televised award song with multiple categories stories.

[Griffin Newman]

He rocks.

[David Sims]

But yes, I think they tried too late to get a kind of.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He's doing his character from Barton fink just times 10. It's the same. It's great.

[David Sims]

And he is slowed down. You know, it's. It's less stylized.

[Griffin Newman]

Sometimes you need a little lube. Thank you for that.

[David Sims]

Producer Ben thank you very much for adding something. It's been too long. So we added a new term to the glossary. This is a film that decides to lube it up.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, they do. They are lubin it it up. Is that. Is this the last Shalub Cohen.

[David Sims]

He's in Barton Fink, obviously our friend who runs the. The blank check meta account. I asked him to do a full tally of Coen brothers repeated appearances. I was going to save it for the Scrugs episode.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

But I have the full data.

[Jordan Hoffman]

We don't need no scrug.

[Griffin Newman]

But did Salub ever wait?

[Jordan Hoffman]

No. What was the point? I interrupted your.

[Griffin Newman]

He never did that.

[David Sims]

This is his last.

[Jordan Hoffman]

This is his last. Oh yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Too bad. So this film of course was shot in color and then you know, they turned it into black and white basically.

[David Sims]

Both because at this point in time the resources were so limited for shooting and processing that they, they just basically always advise you to shoot in color and adjust it later. And obviously this is Posto Brother where like, like Deacons has kind of started to break down all the doors of.

[Griffin Newman]

Post F, there's also the classic, you hear this and I for this, it is true of, like, we need a color version to sell to European markets.

[David Sims]

It is always this thing that European markets are like, we will not.

[Griffin Newman]

The film was cheap, which is weird.

[Jordan Hoffman]

They're supposed to be so intellectual over there, so bizarre.

[David Sims]

And like, Ed Wood, I think, is one of the rare, like, post 90 examples. I think Dead man as well.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Black and white or shove.

[David Sims]

It actually shot in black and white. There's nothing you can do with this. But, like, Nebraska is one that was shot in color, and they aired the color version. European TV and then epics made a big deal of, like, we have the color version, and Alexander Payne basically sent a cease and desist.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Oh, that's so funny.

[David Sims]

There's a similar thing where the Coen brothers are like, not only do we not approve of man who wasn't there in color, but it, like, looks bad. There's shit in it. We did that doesn't work.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not designed to be seen.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, all those scenes in the jail with the shaft of light and whatnot, that's got to be in black opinion.

[Griffin Newman]

But Deacon's also said I fucked around with, like, you know, existing black and white stocks. And I felt they were too, like, grainy, too documentary. Feeling like they felt like ghost movies is one way he puts it where he's like, when I'm shooting in color, I can adjust the light to give it, like, more of a noir feel, less of one, depending on the scene. I mean, Deakins has been working with the Coens for years at this point. Deakins is like a obviously celebrated dp and he had done Kundun for Marty Scorsese, Martin himself. But I remember this was the year where everyone was in my silly little film cinephile world. He absolutely needs the Oscar for this. And, of course, the movie lost to Lord of the Rings first cinematography, which, of course, is a gorgeous film. And the camera's flying all over and all kinds of cool shit is happening. But I remember it being that year where Deacons cleaned up the critics awards and all that.

[David Sims]

And I think almost most telling, he gets the nomination even though this movie completely blanks otherwise. And it is the start of the bit of that run of just like, even if the movie doesn't hit with us, Deakins is basically getting Auto nominated, not even out of respect, but because, like, every year. His work is so undeniable, so recognizable, that even if we bounced on the film, we have to pay did respect.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Assassination of Jesse James did that get him a nomination?

[David Sims]

So we talk about this in a future episode, but that year he is nominated against himself. So he loses the Oscar to Elswit for There Will Be Blood because he's nominated for both Jesse James and no Country.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I see.

[David Sims]

I think he would have won that year had it been one film or the other.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

He does not win until Blade Runner, which is crazy.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I would never have remembered that was what he won for. I knew that he did win, but I didn't know it was for that.

[Griffin Newman]

And yes. So you've also written Beautiful Mind, as you mentioned, and you know, Lord of the Rings. It's a big. It's a crazy movie year. And this one was a like, I would say, fairly warmly received small movie, like in a pretty kind of loud, noisy year.

[David Sims]

It was there I. The stat I saw was it was their lowest grossing film since Hudsucker.

[Griffin Newman]

That makes sense. It didn't cost a ton, which is partly why they got to make it in black and white and all that. But it just felt like the. The reaction at the time was a little golf clappy. It was a little kind of like there's nothing this good hand. Handsome.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

I not like another masterpiece from the Coen brothers.

[David Sims]

I was so recently Cohen pilled at this time as like a 12, 13 year old having just seen oh Brother. And that being like my activation moment. I'm starting to fill in the gaps. But so I was like so electrified by this at the time as a youngin who's just like, you guys are telling me they've made better movies than this. If this is my entry point, you know, there.

[Jordan Hoffman]

There is an aspect of this movie. Movie that plays in my head fairly regularly. It's a line from this film and it's a little. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. Because I'm a little older than you guys. So I'm gonna talk a little bit honesty here. I was, I was debating whether or not I bring this up, but I'm just gonna go for it. And now's the time. You are not married.

[David Sims]

I am. I am unmarried. I'm very unmarried. Yeah.

[Jordan Hoffman]

David Sims is. Is not only married, he has so many children, I can't even count how many.

[David Sims]

Sometimes I look across the room here and I feel like I'm. I'm tuning into fox in the mid-90s because this guy's married with children.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It's true there. I've been married for a very long time. Happily, happily married for I Just want.

[Ben Hosley]

To say I also recently got married.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Hey, mazel tov.

[David Sims]

That's very recent. He doesn't have the years on you.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Well, so loving, a loving and caring relationship is something that I, I, I have and I'm proud to have it. And but when you've been married for a really long time. I've been with the same woman for a really long time. We met, we met before this movie was in theaters like by two weeks or so, but we met in July of 2001 just before 911 we met and coincident. Her name is Muhammad Ada. No. So the Our salacious love story. So here's the thing. Even when you're married to someone that you love and there's, and there's still there the line when Billy, Billy Bob says my wife and I have not performed the sex act in some time.

[Griffin Newman]

He does say that is something to a coroner who's telling him his wife was pregnant. FYI, it's not like he says that.

[Jordan Hoffman]

To a random bar every now and then.

[Griffin Newman]

The guy's like, okay.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And maybe, maybe David can, but I don't know that he does because he has so many children. He clearly has the sex act all the time. That's the thing. He can't stop having the sex act. So when you've been married. Every now and then in my life, I'll think to myself, gee, it's kind of been a little while. I mean, not that that this is any. We still love each other, we still care for one another.

[David Sims]

But has. Has it been some time since the sex.

[Jordan Hoffman]

But I might think to myself, gee, it's been a little bit of a.

[Griffin Newman]

Strange starting horizon for Gandalfine.

[Jordan Hoffman]

What I immediately do, immediately.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Is I hear that line from this movie every single time. And it happens. And as one day maybe Griffin, a woman will be. Will be wise enough to accept your hand in marriage.

[David Sims]

If only. I'm so lucky to go years without the sex.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I'm not saying years.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's ask. Why are we discussing this right now?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Because it's the.

[David Sims]

Because our guest on this episode is Jordan.

[Jordan Hoffman]

What do you mean because? Because. No, the poor. The thing about this movie that has lived with me. Am I the only one who applauds for himself? The only part, the part of this movie that lives with me constantly, but not constantly. I don't want to make it sound like it's constantly that I'm not having the sex act. But the thing since that I play in my head the most is when I realize that it's Been a little while. And then I have a conversation between myself and the conversation between me and Billy Bob Thornton. And he says, my wife and I have not performed the sex act. And I think, oh, Christ. All right, I better shave. You know, something's going on. I better do something that's the butt takeaway candle or something. I don't know what's going on. And put on the. The. The Barry White record. And then maybe I can break the spell. And that's what it is. And it's always that line from this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

It's just so funny that. Because it's not like you watch this movie and you're like, this movie is about, like, healthy sexual relationship. I mean, but sure, the sex act.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

Hey, Griffin. David. Oh, wait, they're both asleep. Sleep. And the new beds we just added to the studio. So I'll just have to be extra quiet.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[Ben Hosley]

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[Griffin Newman]

Oh.

[Ben Hosley]

They'Re dreaming.

[Griffin Newman]

Damon.

[Jordan Hoffman]

What?

[David Sims]

This episode of Blank Check with Griffin David podcast about filmographies is brought to you by booking.combooking. yeah, I mean, that's what I was about to say. Booking. Yeah. From vacation rentals to hotels across the U.S. booking.com bookend. Yeah. Has the ideal stay for anyone, even those who might seem impossible to please. God, I'm trying to think of anyone in My life, perhaps even in this room. Ben, who's like, what's an example of someone on know who maybe has a.

[Griffin Newman]

Very particular set of concerns bringing me.

[Ben Hosley]

In and there's only one other person in the room.

[David Sims]

There's one other person in the room right now.

[Griffin Newman]

I think this is so rude. I sleep easy. I'm definitely not a. Someone who insists on 800 thread count sheets. No, that's a. That's a. An example of a fussy person.

[David Sims]

But people have different demands. And you know what? If you're traveling, that's your time to start making demands.

[Griffin Newman]

You got a partner who's sleep light, rise early. Or maybe, you know, like, you just want someone who wants a pool or wants a view or I don't know.

[David Sims]

Maybe I need a room with some good soundproofing because I'm going to be doing some remote pod record.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[Ben Hosley]

Maybe you're in Europe and you want to make sure.

[David Sims]

That's very demanding to be in Europe.

[Ben Hosley]

You got air conditioning. Well, think of one person in particular, although it's really both of you. You got to have air conditioning.

[Griffin Newman]

I need air conditioning if I'm in the North Pole. Look, if I can find my perfect stay on booking.com, anyone can. Booking.com is definitely the easiest way to find exactly what you're looking for.

[David Sims]

Like, for me, a non negotiable is I need a gorgeous bathroom for selfies.

[Griffin Newman]

You do. You love selfies.

[David Sims]

As long as I got a good bathroom mirror for selfies, I'm happy with everything else.

[Griffin Newman]

Look, they're. Again, they. They're specifying like, oh, maybe you want a sauna or hot tub. And I'm like, sounds good to me. Yeah, please. Can I check that?

[David Sims]

You want one of those in the recording studio?

[Griffin Newman]

That'd be great.

[David Sims]

You want to start. You want to be.

[Griffin Newman]

I'll be in the sauna when we record.

[David Sims]

I was gonna say you. You want to be the Dalton Trumbo, a podcast. You want to be Splish splash.

[Griffin Newman]

You would be good if I had a sauna and a cold plunge and. And while recording, I'm on mic, but you just. You're like, is that. No move to the.

[David Sims]

These are the kinds of demands that booking.com booking. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. You can find exactly what you're booking for. Booking.combooking. yeah. Booking.com book today on the site or in the app. Booking.com booking.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

This is a film about a quiet barber named Ed Cross Crane, the second chair. He keeps saying it like he's a violinist.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

At a barber shop in a. In the city of Santa Rosa, which is a city in north. The North Bay.

[David Sims]

He got kissed into the barbershop from the. His brother in law.

[Griffin Newman]

I guess. So is that Battalucho is his brother in law, Right?

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Am I wrong about that?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yes. He's the brother of friend. Yes. Doris McGrane.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And he is a barber who it seems like says like two words out loud. He's Calvin Kulage.

[David Sims]

You know, I finished watching this and I immediately said. I wish I had thought to. To like do the tally on.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

I. I truly would be curious. How many things does he say out loud?

[Griffin Newman]

He is, of course, narrating the film.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. Yes.

[David Sims]

Voices across the whole thing. But I was thinking this might be a guy who has less than 20 lines of dialogue, which is also just interesting to consider in the production of this movie. Movie that Billy Bob Thorne is often just showing up, standing there holding a fucking close up for three minutes that later will be soundtracked by his own voice.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He might as well be wearing a Mandalorian helmet, for God's sake.

[David Sims]

Might as well be wearing a Mandalorian helmet. This is the way.

[Griffin Newman]

And Kangle is married to a bookkeeper at a sort of department store, I guess it is. Or whatever. Yeah. Who is a bit of a lush, I would say.

[David Sims]

She likes to. Dare I say, pull the cork.

[Griffin Newman]

Cork. He's in some. He's in one of those marriages where they don't seem to like each other or talk to each other, but, like they're not like fighting.

[David Sims]

Well, let's do pin in this. I think this is kind of the key to the multiple interpretations of this movie. And it's interesting how wildly different. I've seen reads for this movie before center around the marriage.

[Griffin Newman]

In the James L. Kane style movies where it's like the first half of it, the plot moves relatively deliberately and then the second half, shit really just keeps happening over and over. Because the first half is this kind of quiet. Will he, won't he? Where it's like John Polito, who we have not yet mentioned, but is kind of at his best in this.

[David Sims]

You. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, is this his best? Cohen's performance?

[David Sims]

There's. I mean, he's so good in Miller's cross Toliver.

[Griffin Newman]

He's amazing in Miller's crossover.

[David Sims]

He's such a skill piece. Performance. But this is, in a way, it's his most rounded performance.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. He's playing a. He is playing an actual closeted homosexual. Barely. They call him the pansy who is like a classic 40s guy. Right. Sort of a con artist who's like, dry cleaning. It's the future of cleaning. All I need is 10 grand.

[David Sims]

It's a classic. Cohen's character who's full of all these inherent contradictions where you're just like. He is this incredibly aggressive, aggressive, sloppy con man who is also desperately lonely. Lonely, Right. Barely closeted. Right.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And is like, his pants up over his belly. They love that.

[David Sims]

But you're like, this guy is constantly at risk of torpedoing his own hustle out of his desperation to be loved, even momentarily. You know, there's like, so much going on with this guy, even down to sort of like the whole relationship to his rug, that he. He's interested in the movie. Going into a barber shop, needing to get a trim underneath, but not revealing that in fact the hair on top is fake until the. The first chair leaves. Yeah. He's remarkable in this film.

[Griffin Newman]

He's wonderful. And he is like, oh, if only I had $10,000 for my dry cleaning.

[David Sims]

And I love the connection to Hudsucker.

[Jordan Hoffman]

There, because Hudsucker, of course, is about the Hula Hoop, and then it becomes about the Frisbee. And this is about dry cleaning.

[David Sims]

Can you believe this thing? Well, because in the context of this movie, you. You could see the Billy Bob character walking away at the end and being like. And I guess he was just making up that dry cleaning thing, right? Like, the way Polito explains it when he's in the chair. Dry cleaning. You heard that, right? Dry cleaning.

[Jordan Hoffman]

But it made me Google, like, who invented dry cleaning.

[David Sims]

It is. It feels like A 50s B movie science fiction plot of, like, they just spray it with chemicals, no tear on the fabric.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, I will say that to this day, I am kind of like.

[David Sims]

I. I don't understand. I do not understand how that works.

[Griffin Newman]

It's basically like they just wash it in chemicals rather than in water. I mean, that is. And the chemicals don't get it wet. I don't know how else to describe it to you.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I've never actually seen dry cleaning.

[Griffin Newman]

No, because you.

[Jordan Hoffman]

You give it to somebody. Well, I mean, what do I get dry. I got a suit dry cleaned once a year, and you give it to the guy and then you pick it up a few days later.

[David Sims]

If there was a Netflix series called what is Dry Cleaning?

[Griffin Newman]

That was billion views.

[David Sims]

Yeah. 8,000 episodes. Episodes. I'd be watching all of them. I would quit this podcast and just start doing a what is Dry Cleaning? Recap podcast. Can I Can I just for one moment, just, if not pull the brakes, just kind of slow the car down for a moment. Because I'm realizing, Jordan, what is your general relationship to the Cohens? I think this is an important question to ask.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Huge. I mean, I love obsessed.

[David Sims]

You know, you calling out that you're a little older than us. You were able to come up with their rise in a way that David and I are entering midstream.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I'm a little older than you. So I discovered the Coen brothers when Raising Arizona was on Cinemax 20,000 times a day. And I discovered them. And I did not see Miller's Crossing in theaters, but I was aware of it, but I was too young.

[David Sims]

But it feels like a very Jordan movie.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Oh, yeah. So I saw Miller's Crossing the minute it came out on vhs. And then I, from there and on I saw everyone in the theaters. So I saw the first one in the theaters was Barton Fink, which is a huge deal. Deal. And I loved it, obviously. And I, I, I, I mourn the schism, you know, because I feel that I've never been able to watch all of the Macbeth film. It put me to sleep both attempts. And I know that's fine.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a good, I mean, I like that movie.

[Jordan Hoffman]

But like I was. You're not gonna. Yeah. And then I thought that Driveway Dolls was pretty bad. And I haven't seen Honey Don't. I Hear it's awful. And I didn't see Ethan's the Jerry Lee Lewis. I haven't watched that.

[David Sims]

I mean, that's maybe the most damning statement in the world that Jordan Hoffman has not watched Ethan Cohen's Jerry Lewis.

[Jordan Hoffman]

That's a little weird. I should probably watch that. Is that on the streaming? I can stream it somewhere.

[David Sims]

It's like, not now. That's the thing. I felt like I watched it on Plex for free like three months ago. Not on someone's server. The Plex streaming library.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Wow. It's probably Canopy. It's probably on Canopy.

[David Sims]

But then now it's gone and I, I was seeing it only available as like $20 purchase.

[Griffin Newman]

It is rentable.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, I've read what I bought.

[Griffin Newman]

Only 71 minutes long, so it's a breeze if you want to watch it.

[David Sims]

It also looks like it took about 65 minutes to make.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I, I've read, I've read Ethan Cohen's short stories. Yeah, I think they're very good. Garden of Eden, I think the name of the book is called. And so they were my favorites. I I have my own theories as to why they split. I don't want to get into that, but I, I hope they get there. I hope they get back together again because they can't do it on their own.

[David Sims]

They always say we're still writing stuff together. Yeah, I mean, we needed to explore some side. I could understand the break.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I could understand it. I mean, listen, I'll just, I'll just say, if you were Ethan Comb, would you want to hang out with Frances McDormand that much? I mean, she's a pill. She's very talented. She's very talented.

[David Sims]

But your sister made it take for Jordan to launch an hour into this episode.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I mean, if you're, if, if your sister in law is Francis McTominay, like, oh, Christ, I gotta hang around Fran some more.

[David Sims]

I think they're two very, very complicated marriages going on in that partnership. I think they're just interesting dynamics.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

In all directions.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I would not want to hang out with Fran all the time. I mean, she's talented as hell, but like every movie and she's, you know, I don't know. She's too much, man. And so that's my take. But I think that they should get back together because they don't have the juice on their own and everyone knows it.

[David Sims]

And it's certainly not the same. And there are. Together, they have more juice than basically anyone else on the planet.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I know they're one of the best. Like, if I had to name my all time, all time favorite directors, you know, they're in the top five. It's, it's them, it's Woody Allen. It's, I mean, it's like a schmuck. It's Kubrick and Square.

[David Sims]

All the, all the Cliff Salva.

[Griffin Newman]

Jian Ghomeshi.

[David Sims]

I think he's got a good movie in him, even if he hasn't technically directed yet.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He should cast Billy Bob. No, I mean, I, I, it gets a little cliche, but I think they're that good. You know they are, but there are some people that just don't, that don't like the Cohen's at all. They are a little bit of like, if you don't like their shtick, you're, there's not. Even though they have a broad palette. I mean, they're inside. Lewin Davis and Raising Arizona are very, very different movies, but you can tell that the same, the same author.

[David Sims]

It is interesting to read the reviews of this film at the time and as we said, a lot of it came out at a Bad moment. Right. But there was a sense of, like, is there anything to this movie beyond stick? Right.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

No, there was a. A response to it at the time, you see, that was not this sort of like, is this all a joke? Is this all a lark? But it was like, are they just kind of so obsessed with the idea of the vibes and the look and the character and, like, what is this movie actually about?

[Jordan Hoffman]

I think it actually is what is driving. I. I personally come away from this film and. And find it meaningful.

[David Sims]

I do, too.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Which. Which is funny because the whole premise is don't look for meat. And the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, which, by the way, I once made Joel and Ethan Cohen laugh.

[David Sims]

Well, I share this.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I made them laugh at a.

[David Sims]

You shared your opinions on Francis McDonald.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I made them laugh. And they don't like doing press, as you know. But I did press for a Serious Man. I had to do a round table interview, which is awful. They have you with the dregs, with the movie guru and all these schmucks. I don't even want to get into it.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it's more humanist or special.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Effects, just whatever, the inside joke. But so. So. So I agreed to do a roundtable because I'm like, I'm gonna get to meet Joel, Ethan Cohen. So it's after Serious man. So I got a chance to make a statement. I said, hey, guys, this. This film, the Serious man, has a lot to do with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. You know, he's on the blackboard. You know, he talks about the cat. Even I don't understand the cat. And I'm like, man, who wasn't there hinges on the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle. This guy Fritz, or maybe it's Werner. I'm like, what's your third? Are you going to do the trilogy? And that made Ethan chuckle and made Joel smile. So that's a major win as far as I'm concerned.

[Griffin Newman]

And then they didn't get the fuck out of my round table.

[Jordan Hoffman]

They didn't give me an answer.

[Griffin Newman]

They don't give me the high hat.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I got the high hat.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, well, all right. To briefly summarize what the movie is about, because I do think it is more interesting to talk about. What do we think, right. Is actually going on?

[David Sims]

You were throwing out the basic setup, right?

[Griffin Newman]

The basic setup is he. He's the most passive, placid guy, but he makes this one decision that's kind of out of the ordinary, where he's like, I will get ten grand to give to this rando. And I'm going to do it by blackmailing the man. My wife is cuckolding my wife's boss.

[David Sims]

Who, by the way, is about to, like, expand his business and give her a prime role in the operation.

[Griffin Newman]

So essentially, I'm fucking her over, right?

[David Sims]

And by the way, fuck over his household, right?

[Griffin Newman]

I'm essentially kind of dynamiting everything for this kind of cockamamie thing.

[David Sims]

And his evidence is a husband knows he's not wrong, right? But it's not like he doesn't have photos in the act.

[Jordan Hoffman]

No, no, but he knows, right?

[David Sims]

He's. He's sensed a vibe. He decides to leverage this to get $10,000 to give to a con artist who also maybe just wants to him. And I love that when he shows up in Polito's room, Polito doesn't. Doesn't even recognize or remember him. You get this reveal later with Gandolfini where you're like, he's throwing out 40 of these an hour, right? And he's surprised if anyone follows up.

[Griffin Newman]

And when he almost gets away with it. But there's a couple problems. One, of course, there is no dry cleaning business that will soon furnish him with this investment. And two is that Gandolfini does eventually figure out that he's the blackmailer, and so he murders Gandalfini. But then he almost gets away with that because the crime gets pinned on his wife, and she, after, you know, a couple twists and turns, is sent to the chair, and before she goes there, she fucking kills herself, right?

[Jordan Hoffman]

And when he accidentally. He kind of accidentally on purpose kills Gandolfini, there's the great shot. He looks at his hands. His hands do not have blood on them.

[Griffin Newman]

Pretty cool. And then the bizarre kind of final act of the film plays out where it's like he sort of has, like, all the knots have been tied up, right? Like, he's gotten away with it in a sort of way. But then he starts being crazy. Like, he decides he should make a piano star out of his lawyer friend's daughter, played by Scarlett Johansson.

[Jordan Hoffman]

How awesome is Richard Jenkins?

[Griffin Newman]

He's amazing.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He's.

[Griffin Newman]

And obviously he's amazing in Tall, his.

[David Sims]

First film with them as well. And Sid didn't want to audition because he'd been rejected, directed by them so many times, right. That he was like, I can't go through the heartbreak of missing out on another cone.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I would love to know what parts he's auditioning.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, there's a lot of parts in Cohen's movies that would be.

[David Sims]

And they use him so well, from this moment on. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And then she like, makes a pass at him in a car, he crashes the car and then when he wakes up, he's. He's accused of murder because they find. They found John Polito's body, who I think Gandolfini murdered.

[David Sims]

Correct.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Beat the pansy to death for making a pass at him.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And you know, and so then he goes to trial and then Battalucho, who put up like, you know, the barbershop as the mortgage to try and protect his sister, attacks him in court. And so the case falls apart, declared.

[David Sims]

A mistrial, and he throws himself at.

[Griffin Newman]

The mercy of the judge who sentences him to the chair. And before he goes to the chair, he sees a ufo, ignores it and is executed. Executed for his crimes.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

That is.

[David Sims]

I mean, let's do. Of course. Right?

[Griffin Newman]

I guess so.

[David Sims]

But like, his wife has shown up at his door.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Oh, yeah.

[David Sims]

After he's seemingly gotten away with the murder.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Who is that actress?

[David Sims]

She's got a great wife. She also plays the woman at the picnic on the beach in Serious Man.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Her name is Catherine Borrowitz.

[David Sims]

She's a great, great, great face, but.

[Griffin Newman]

Great face.

[David Sims]

But those two performances, she is like two phenomenal. I know she appears in a couple other moments, but bas are killer one scene performances in Cohen's films that are wildly different. And in Serious man, she's like the one figure of intense empathy and human connection where I feel like the great tragedy that movie is you're just like, just connect to her. Right. This guy's life is crumbling and this woman, like sees him and hears him.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. It's a great scene.

[David Sims]

And then she does the opposite thing in this film, which is basically shoves.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Him over a cliff mentally.

[David Sims]

Billy Bob Thornton's in this pocket of just being like, why am I getting away with this? Why is the universe lining up to. To escort me through.

[Griffin Newman]

I should be in a James M. Kane novel where it's all going wrong for me. And it doesn't seem to be.

[David Sims]

We're going to circle back to my bigger take on the movie. But she shows up at the door and he thinks this is like the wife who's put together the pieces and now she's going to blackmail him and instead she goes like, hey, I know your wife's not guilty. I know what happened. We witnessed an alien a year ago. We saw a flying saucer. Yeah. It changed us. We know too much. Someone had to like, close the loop you're good. Your wife's good. I'm sorry for your loss. Yeah. For the, for the tragedy of. Of your wife. Yeah. Getting pinned with this.

[Griffin Newman]

The. The. You know, imagine. Okay. I remember seeing this for the first time. The UFO thing does throw you for a loop the first. First time.

[David Sims]

I had completely forgotten that was part.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, you'd forgotten. Even on re watch because like once I saw it I was like, that's the movie where they throw in the ufo.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Right. And the ufo, of course, visually it's the same as the hubcap from the car crash and the surgeons classic silver.

[Griffin Newman]

Saucer UFO right out of Plan 9 from outer.

[David Sims]

So there's a movie called. I think it's literally. It had a couple different titles, but I think its main one was Earth versus the Flying Saucers.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yes. Great movie.

[David Sims]

Which was at early Harryhausen film. That is one of the movies this feels most matched to visually. Yeah. Even before you actually start putting flying saucers in it.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Can I talk about. Because we mentioned the Scarlett Johansson character, because this is something that I wanted to bring up. There were two things I wanted to bring up today. One was I had to remind the listeners to subscribe to hofstack.substack.com the other thing was there's the great scene in this where Scarlett Johansson is playing one of the Beethoven sonatas. And the whole movie is like sonatas from Beethoven. They're beautiful. And she mentions what I think is something that we all know. Beethoven was deaf when he wrote this. And that's when you learn that Beethoven when you're a kid and you're.

[Griffin Newman]

It seems impossible.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It seems like when you're. I don't know how old you were, but at some point some teacher said to you, Beethoven, you know, Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, they're the big three. This guy was deaf. You're like, what. That makes sense.

[David Sims]

Sounds like, like a weird, like quirk. Like he's a. You know, an X Men or whatever.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Exactly.

[David Sims]

But then like I. I think this movie also circle. You're like a. It's impossible. How could he do it that well if he couldn't even hear it? And then this movie also circles the tragedy of like. And this guy didn't even get to hear it.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I know. Yeah.

[David Sims]

He wrote this.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Oh. But I. Here's what I had to say. Everybody, please. I need.

[Griffin Newman]

Go ahead.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I need the floor. I got both my. I got a visual. I got both my arms up like I just scored a touchdown.

[Griffin Newman]

Just talk.

[David Sims]

This is so good. Give him space. Let my man Cook Ludvig van Beethoven.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Is a man who everybody knows was deaf. He was not just death his entire life. From the age of his teens until he died. He suffered from crippling diarrhea. He had. And I'm not.

[David Sims]

You're speaking my language.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Google this. I'm not joking. I read an 1100 page biography by Jan Swafford on Beethoven. 900 of those 1100 pages are about him shitting Beethoven shat nonstop. Now here's the thing. He. Toward the end of his life.

[David Sims]

Why this was a good guest book. It always is.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Toward the end of Beethoven's life, he was writing this makes me cry. The most sublime music anyone's ever heard. Except for him, because he was deaf. The Ode to Joy was one of the final things he wrote.

[Griffin Newman]

That was how it feels to really like clean.

[David Sims]

Out a true bop.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Jordan Hoffman]

When you.

[Griffin Newman]

Joy is a bop.

[Jordan Hoffman]

There were quotes of the people who would like in his. In his apartment. Towards the end of his life, there were bowls of shit at his feet everywhere. He just. He was just shitting and writing music and his aids.

[David Sims]

And he hadn't lost his sense of smell, so he was smelling shit while writing.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Old to drink. They couldn't even visit here. They wanted to go, have you seen Ludwig? Is he writing? Is he. Well, we can't go in there. It's too disgusting.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He was the most putrid and vile man that ever lived, sitting in his own shit.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Jordan Hoffman]

But he was creating these works of art that have stand and will continue to stand for centuries. The most beautiful works of art man has ever created while his body was falling apart, literally falling out of his ass.

[David Sims]

And yet David looks really happy. Yeah, go on, turn.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I'm just telling you that I find this to be so touching and I feel that people. People should stop say, oh, Beethoven was deaf. Scarlett Johansson should have said he was deaf. And he was for 20 years.

[David Sims]

Brains out for 20 years.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Don't you hate when you have diarrhea?

[David Sims]

Yeah. My friends, it's not fun preaching to the choir.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It's not fun.

[Griffin Newman]

The man who wasn't there and he.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Was suffering and yet he still created.

[David Sims]

He gave us joy.

[Griffin Newman]

What do we want to say about.

[Jordan Hoffman]

So that's all.

[David Sims]

I have many, many things. I'm just getting started here.

[Griffin Newman]

Know.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

What do you want to say about the man who was.

[David Sims]

Yes. Yes. I have many, many things to say.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I think there are people who think I'm making this up. Jordan, go to Google.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm actually going to tell you to please be quiet.

[David Sims]

Now we discuss the film interview with the Box Masters 2009, which by the way, let's just add.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, fine. Can we talk about comedy points? All right, take a comedy point. Let's talk about the movie, please. Two can give me Griffin. Can we talk about the movie, please?

[David Sims]

Please?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Thank you.

[David Sims]

I think this film is a little bit of a. In certain ways an answer key for their worldview at a point in time where they're at an interesting. In what transition?

[Griffin Newman]

I'm interested. I think this movie not interested in Beethoven's.

[David Sims]

But I think this movie is in certain ways a rebuke to the notion that they are nihilists who are mocking all their characters and don't care about any. Anything, right? I think this movie is an interrogation of a man who seemingly doesn't care about anything. What, despite the fact that he does end up murdering, sucked into a Cohen's and pulls crimes. I think this movie is kind of about, despite his. His misdeeds, a largely benevolent sociopath, right? It is almost a. A borderline sympathetic portrayal of someone who is actually incapable of feeling or at the very least is incapable of being able to have any healthy relationship to his emotions or express them to anyone in his life.

[Griffin Newman]

He's right. He's so far gone in terms of like. He'll remark on things like the sex act, having not committed it and like, you know, whatever. Like his relationship with his wife and how it's.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He knows it's not normal. He knows his life is weird, but he doesn't seem to mind.

[Griffin Newman]

But he won't say like, and I didn't like that. What's weird, obviously, right, is that he makes the decision. He makes the initial decision where you're like, why? Why? If he's so mal. You know, like contented with just kind of like doing nothing and cutting hair and kind of just doing. Going through the motions. Why does he do this?

[David Sims]

I could give you. I could give you.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm not saying you need to explain.

[Jordan Hoffman]

The only thing he doesn't like is people who talk too much. That's the only thing that he ever expresses.

[Griffin Newman]

He's surrounded by people who talk too much. Like, everyone's always fucking talking too much.

[David Sims]

There's a part where he talks about who is. Oh, when he hires the new barber to replace Baldalushi, once he starts pulling the cork, right? And he says, I hired this guy because he seemed quiet like me. But it turned out he was just nervous at the interview. Just another gabber, right? There's this. This term of like it's just another guy wants to talk all the time. And his disappointment at realizing that this guy's another one of those. Right. And. And yet he talks so much about him meeting Doris, his wife, and immediately feeling this connection and him being embarrassed that he couldn't speak to her and her saying, it's fine, I'll do the talking. This sense of like there being a balance there. Right. And when he has the moment where his life is flashing before his eyes in the car after his rebuked.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Right.

[David Sims]

He seems, yes, he says my life flashes before my eyes. And the memory he goes to is basically this one kind of innocuous exchange. They had Chris McDonald as a door to door salesman who he kind of didn't have the social acumen to send away. And Frances McDormand was able to cut out and neutralize. And then she sits on the couch and they don't know what to say to each other. And you kind of feel her waiting for him to say anything. Right. That they rushed into this marriage. I know everything I need to know about you, but you kind of of get the sense, I think that she thought at some moment he was going to be able to give her something at some point would open up. Right. And even the moments of recognition, what he reveals when he's making the defense to Shalhoub, you know, there's the scene where he confesses basically to Shaloob to everything he did. And Shalhoub responds as that's an interesting legal strategy, assuming that he is making up a yarn to be able to take the heat off of his wife. And Shaloob's kind of giving it a test drive to see.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I can see how that would work.

[David Sims]

That were.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And she seems touched.

[David Sims]

She seems touched. And part of that is him revealing that he knew she was having an affair because a husband just knows and that he caught it and he did it. And you see the look on her face of her kind of wanting to apologize for hurting him and yet being like this happened. Cuz you don't touch me, you don't talk to me, you don't hear me. He's not inherently a bad guy or a dispassionate guy or. Well, he is dispassionate to a fault. To a fault. That is his core issue.

[Jordan Hoffman]

This is probably a great opportunity to talk about something that never dawned on me but is a widely accepted theory among many.

[David Sims]

I want to fold this in.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, fold it in, fold it in.

[David Sims]

Okay. So I didn't know this was a Big read. And I was. I was finding a lot of this as I was looking at, like, letterbox logs and reviews and analysis different pieces over the last. Since last night. Right. Trustee. Like, what are people's reads on this movie? And a lot of people read it as. He's a closeted gay man at a time who could never come to terms with that himself. He perhaps is not even. Even cognizant enough to know it's not.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, he. He knows a pass gets made. Because when Polito makes a pass and he's like, was that a pass? That's not. I'm all business. And that, I feel like, is way out of line. Right. If you're like, okay, that's what this movie's about. That's where you're like, yes.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

He. Clearly, there's something demonstrative about where he's like, I am going to not have sex with this guy to prove the point that I am definitely not.

[David Sims]

Also, Gandolfini responds to that by beating this guy to death. You know what I'm saying? Like, it is a movie in which you expect him to react in a more extreme way. And he just kind of goes like, was that a pass? I'm not here to have sex. How do I give you money?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You know, like, there's a little bit of that feeling.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I would be very curious to know how, first of all, was this in Joel and Ethan's mind when they were writing this? And. Or if they. I. I sometimes feel with their work.

[David Sims]

Work.

[Jordan Hoffman]

They are. They. They oftentimes are allowing. They know that, oh, people are going to interpret this all kinds of ways, and they just move on.

[David Sims]

I agree.

[Jordan Hoffman]

So they might just be like, yeah, hey, like, it might have been after, like, they might say, hey, some people are going to think he's gay. Great. Let's talk about.

[David Sims]

There's the three. There are three big moments, right? It's the Polito moment. It's obviously the recognition of we have not had the sex act in several years. And is Scarlett Johansson attempting to give him a sexual favor? Yeah, but kind of out of the this.

[Jordan Hoffman]

But she's also, like, 16. I mean, he, He. We should applaud him for rebuking.

[David Sims]

He has, like, a very, like, what are you talking about? Kind of response. It's the most animated he gets by anything in the film.

[Jordan Hoffman]

That's true.

[David Sims]

Stopping her from going down on him. Right. And she's doing it out of this sense of, you've done me a. A kindness. I owe you the favor to Repay you. But also what I think is being. What is unspoken in that scene is Scarlett Johansson's assumption. That must be why you were doing this the whole time. It's not just. I feel like I owe you this. I assume if my father's stoic older friend starts wanting to give me a.

[Griffin Newman]

Career, it must be, I need to essentially.

[David Sims]

And if I've gone along with it this far, I understand the agreement. That's what I'm trying to do. And his reaction is like, what? How could you possibly read it that way? Well, he's more.

[Griffin Newman]

Heavens to Betsy. He says.

[David Sims]

Right. Physically recalls in a way that causes the car to crash.

[Griffin Newman]

It does, but it feels. It does feel a little performative. Like, I do think he does. Or like, much like with pido, like, it's like, I mean. And again, look, I don't want to like Jordan saying, I do feel like the Cohen are like, look, make of it what you will, but both times it feels like he's like, no, I am not here for a pass. And with ScarJo, he's like, I'm not here for a blowjob. And I'm like, I think you wanted to see if that one was coming.

[David Sims]

I think he is obviously hyper fixated on her in a way that he cannot process. This is that era. Well, yeah, because this is Ghost World and this are the same year.

[Jordan Hoffman]

So she was probably not 18 because.

[David Sims]

She'S only like 18 in Lost in Translation. She's so young and Lost in Translation. It is bizarre, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, no, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jordan Hoffman]

She was pretty. Damn.

[David Sims]

She was born in 1984.

[Griffin Newman]

She's like two years older than me. Yeah.

[David Sims]

So she would have been 19 when lost a translation comes out. 17 when they shot it.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. When this movie.

[David Sims]

I think she maybe turns 18 when they're filming. But yes, she's actually a teenager in this film. It is bizarre to watch her at this age now that we're just like 25 years later and she's apparently the biggest. This was the year this, this is the year where she.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Ghost World came out in 20.

[Griffin Newman]

This was the Ghost World year where it was like, oh, like the. The Horse Whisperer girl is like going to be a star like Manny and Low.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Manny and Low was before this.

[Griffin Newman]

I never saw Manny and Lo.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Manny and Low is great.

[David Sims]

Let me continue to try to lay these bricks. Okay. I. I think she's recognizing that he has some obsession with her. It is driving him. Right. But we're also living in this guy's internal monologue. I think this Is him being as honest as he can possibly be. And I think in the same way that, like, if he's gay, it's something he has not worked through. He is almost in denial of whatever sexual attraction he has going on here. In the same way that he still, in my opinion, loves his wife. And I think she would love for her to touch him.

[Griffin Newman]

Him.

[David Sims]

And he cannot explain why he is not doing it.

[Griffin Newman]

That's a solid. I get that. I don't. Okay.

[David Sims]

I think it's. It's why this title for me is the right title of the film. Right. Is there is a core emptiness to this guy that I think is both an analysis of a. The archetypes of the types of guys at the center of these types of noir stories. These sort of, like hardened men who have seen it all and get a bad shake, you know, all the tragedies pile up on top of them and they maintain this sort of stoic face. And you're like, well, that's a psychopath, right? Who can just sort of like smoke a cigarette and make a pithy comment and move along and walk off into the rain. The other part of this is this is very much a post war movie of men being defined. And Gandolfini is a character who has lied about his service. Right. That men are defined by. Either you didn't go. And you live with deep insecurity about the fact that you seem as less of a man because you didn't serve because of your fear, your physical whatever it is.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And he goes, that's a tough break. Great kid. Fallen arch.

[David Sims]

Or you served in the war and something broke inside of you psychologically and emotionally. Now you have to just go back and cut children's hair and act like.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Everything'S okay or be a total drunk like Richard Jenkins.

[David Sims]

Right. You just can't work through it anymore. And here's this guy where it's just like, I think the gay reading comes from. And obviously sexuality is this thing that keeps coming up in this movie. An interesting way of just like there's something that feels unsolved in this guy that he cannot figure out. He is holding something within him. And so it's obvious to go, go. Like, what is his secret that he. That is animating him that we are not solving. But I think this movie is about the unsolvability of this guy, which is like the great tragedy of his life is he can't say what he wants. He cannot express what he wants. He does not know what he wants. Our friend Jordan Fish, who A recent guest on the episode, his letterbox log was. I. Now, on watching this film, my biggest takeaway is he loves his wife so much that this is a movie of like, a tragedy of a guy who, like, literally just can't say it.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Wow.

[David Sims]

Right?

[Jordan Hoffman]

He's a wife guy.

[David Sims]

Can't say it in his actions, can't say it in his words, like, any of it.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Well, I do. I. I think the fact that he's such a conundrum is the Heisenberg kernel of the film. The more you look for facts, what does Tony Shalhoub say is like, it's what you started the podcast with. The quote from. If you. If you look for something. Yeah. If you look for the facts, you'll find they don't mean anything. And I find that to be rather profound. However, I could see a Cohen's critic saying, and, you know, give me. That's a whack off type thing to say. Like, you know, if you look to. If you try to understand it, you never will. Like, I could sort of see a critic condemning the cones. Like, ah, those tricksters, they're so smart, their heads up their ass. They made a movie that if you try to figure it out, that's the point that you can't figure out. Figure it out. I think this movie has enough juice that you can come correct, as they say, and do something. This pretzel logic. Like, I think if a lesser director tried to make a movie, like, if you try to figure out the main character, it'll break your brain. It's annoying. But I think, I think this actually.

[David Sims]

Works because I think it's the point. I think it's about a guy where there's no there there. He's almost like a parody of the criticisms of them. Right? Yes. Style, this affectation. Yes. This is mood, this is energy, this is conf. Evidence. But is it just rooted in a sort of like, cynical nihilism? Who gives a right? And you're like, no. It's actually a fairly sympathetic portrayal of a guy whose great curse is that he can't care.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

You know, I saw someone in letterbox say that there is like very much an autistic reading of this movie at a time where you could not diagnose this guy in that way. And that they said. I. I kept thinking while watching this film of Temple Grandin's quote that making it through daily life makes me feel like I'm an anthropologist on Mars. Right.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Even just the way he talks about these. What do we do with the hair. You ever think about what hair is? You know, like all of these weird broken things inside of him manifest in this way that seems like a cool fucking noir character. And you're like, this guy just literally doesn't know how to be a person.

[Jordan Hoffman]

That's kind of cool. Like, yeah, I mean, forget. I mean, there's the gay read. And then it could be the asexual reader, just like you say. He's just. He's. He's. I mean, I don't know if the Cohen said let's make a movie about an autistic person, but just somebody who's not on. Not vibrating on this plane, you know?

[David Sims]

David, I feel like you have some.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I've just been listening.

[David Sims]

You have to let me go. He.

[Griffin Newman]

It's just interesting that there's a film with a narration where the narration, in my opinion, is basically lies and misdirection or just unreliable. And he says lots of stuff and explains nothing. And he does not explain why. Like, as I keep pounding, why he does the thing. Why does he blackmail James Candle? Because it's an insane thing to do.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It's weird because it does. He doesn't look like he's somebody. What he.

[Griffin Newman]

When he's describing, he doesn't say, you know, and I finally wanted to get one over on my way.

[Jordan Hoffman]

No, no, he makes it seem to be.

[Griffin Newman]

But he doesn't say that either.

[Jordan Hoffman]

No, no, he. No, no, no, no. He does because he says that like he's stuck in a rut. He's the second chair care. And he makes it seem as if he were to get a lot of money from being dry cleaning, being George Jefferson, he would finally get a piece of the pie. Yeah, finally. It would be like he's. He'd be on easy street. But the thing is, like, it's almost like he doesn't covet fancy clothes, cars or houses. Like, what is he going to do with that money if he gets the dry cleaning money? It's a little bit weird.

[Griffin Newman]

We don't know what he wants, but I think he is kind of like, do I want. Want sex? Do I want money? Do I want my wife to die? He's mad at thinking about these things.

[David Sims]

May I give my read?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Specific question, please. Do I think he is once again, in a way he would never be able to work out, even to say internally. Right. These are things he could not even admit in an internal monologue. We should mention, as you said, the narration is mostly lies. The reveal at the end of the film is that he's writing this for a men's magazine. His entire story is going to get turned in some tawdry like, I killed my pregnant wife. Why? Right. Like he's going to become tabloid fodder that will then basically probably become a. A highly fictionalized B movie.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Right, right, right.

[David Sims]

Like that's what his story is becoming and we're seeing the. The toniest version of it. But I think he thinks he's telling the truth. I think he is explaining stuff as much as he thinks he can. I think this guy has no relationship to himself and I think he can't explain the. The dry cleaning thing for that reason. I think what is going on? And I tied this back to in no country, obviously a later film. But the moment of the gas station owner having inherited from his wife being this moment that Anton Chigurh shows such disdain and terror at. Right. And obviously a lot of the Cohen films deal with the sense of. Of different forms of cucking.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And. And men being defined by their relationships with their wives and living in fear of them or living through them or all these different things. I think there is this part of Billy Bob where he feels like he is failing his wife by being a man of no ambition who is stuck at the second chair in a job that her brother handed to him. Right. And now her career is about to level up. Now she is about to be even more the breadwinner dinner. And he is like, I am not worthy of her if I am not contributing more to this.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's interesting read.

[David Sims]

He already knows his wife is slipping away from him.

[Jordan Hoffman]

But he also says, I don't think he's.

[David Sims]

I don't think he's putting money into this because he wants to buy her nice things. I think he's putting money into her because he feels like if he doesn't have money, then what the status. Does he.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Does he plan to make a fortune?

[Griffin Newman]

I just don't.

[Jordan Hoffman]

In dry cleaning and then buy her things.

[David Sims]

He's not incredibly smart. Hard.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Well, that's not a well thought out. No, it's not a good point.

[Griffin Newman]

But I just don't buy that he likes his wife as much as you do. I think he kind of.

[David Sims]

I think he likes as much as he likes anyone.

[Jordan Hoffman]

That's exactly it. I mean when he has that death. They've had the death vision of the great scene. He. He's watching her kick. I mean she's being awesome by telling the salesman to go go f himself. He doesn't smile and say good one hun. He's still as stoic as ever, but you get, you project onto it. When he's sitting in that chair watching her go to town down, he's thinking, wow, my wife kicks ass.

[David Sims]

Also, she seems like an emotionally unregulated woman and it makes it difficult for him to deal with her. But also she's one of the only people in this sort of vaguely polite picket fence society who like cuts through and says the thing that no one says.

[Jordan Hoffman]

She gets drunk at the wedding. She gets drunk at the wedding. And, and of course, and then tells the woman who's about to get married how.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Jordan Hoffman]

How marriage sucks.

[David Sims]

For a guy who like basically doesn't know how to talk. That's what he would want to say.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Exactly.

[David Sims]

Put the thoughts together.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And his brother in law's riding a pig and eating blueberry pie.

[David Sims]

No, Like, I don't think his love of his wife is motivated by anything sexual. Right?

[Jordan Hoffman]

No, no, no.

[David Sims]

Like I, I think he is largely an asexual person, but I think he feels a fondness for her. That is the closest thing he has to a motivating force in his life. And yet the whole point of this movie is it's like, why does this guy do anything? What drives him? So many of these noir films are like, why does this guy get tangled up in this mess?

[Griffin Newman]

They want money. It's always because they want money.

[David Sims]

But like, but if he doesn't want money for himself, then who does he want it for?

[Griffin Newman]

I don't think he wants money. I think he wants to ruin his wife.

[David Sims]

Like, I just don't read it the opposite way.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. But he makes a decision that's destroying her and then he takes. Well, he is calling pleasure in watching it happen.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He is, he doesn't care for James Gandolfini. That much is clear.

[Griffin Newman]

He's sort of an offensive creature.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. He wants, clearly he's not, he's okay to stick it to him. Not he doesn't want to kill him, but he wants to give him, give him the works, they say.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Ben Hosley]

I kind of feel like in this type of situation where you find out that your partner is cheating on you, it makes you kind of not think.

[Griffin Newman]

Rationally, but he, he's not finding it out.

[Ben Hosley]

He knows he's kind of sense, but it's even, it's so, it's so outrageous that then Gandolfini would talk to him.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Like, because about hypothetical, that's a.

[Ben Hosley]

Obviously.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, right. But it's, it's like everyone doesn't take him very Seriously.

[David Sims]

As like, right, I'm having an affair with a married woman. No one, you know is what I feel like.

[Ben Hosley]

That would make you kind of crazy to like, know that this guy thinks so little of you that he's going to do. He's going to disrespect you in this way right to your face.

[David Sims]

But this is also the core of sociopathy, right? Like, where you hear these accounts of like horrendous crimes and they track down the person and they interrogate them for days and they just never get to the bottom of like, why did you do this? You know, and they go through the checklist, like, did you get a sexual satisfaction from it? Is it revenge? Is it power? And sometimes these people just go, like, I don't know.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

You know, sometimes these people have a whole system in their head. Right. And it all ties together in a logic, a warped logic, but there is a chain within it. And sometimes these people are just. Just like, I don't know, I just started doing it just kind of happened.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I mean, I think about the movie Detour a lot while watching this, which very much feels like a Grim's fairy tale.

[Griffin Newman]

You mean the version of a classic.

[David Sims]

Right. And that is a movie where a guy who isn't that smart and isn't that interesting just keeps on stepping further and further into. And at times it starts to feel like the character is supernatural. Right. Like mild spoilers. The guy seems to like murder people by accident. Yes. Right. What is almost like Final Destination style setup, suddenly like phone cords become tied around people's necks and they die in front. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, that movie was. Was kind of like. Right. That was like very dark, even for the noirs of the era or whatever. Yes.

[David Sims]

But that's a movie where this guy is just trying to fucking outrun this thing that, you know, is going to catch up to him.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

It is so fascinating that the structure of this movie is basically every time he does something terrible or something terrible happens in his vicinity. Vicinity. Almost immediately someone shows up and like hand delivers him a mulligan.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. When the cops come to tell him the news that she's been arrested, he's ready to confess. He's. He says, well, I guess we're going downtown. I'm like, what?

[David Sims]

See it on his face? The second they walk through the door, it's over.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Right. And he's not gonna fight it. You can tell, I think on his face that he's about to tell them everything.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Right. And also, he didn't. He only killed Gandolfini, by accident, he did kill him, but he was being strangled. He was about to die.

[Griffin Newman]

Want to kill.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And he had that.

[Griffin Newman]

He's not looking.

[Jordan Hoffman]

No, he happens to have that. That thing. I think he would have been just as happy.

[David Sims]

Which they go, that's a lady's weapon. And he's like, it's a cigar cutter. It belonged to the guy.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Right? Right.

[David Sims]

And they're like, no, it looks like some lady.

[Jordan Hoffman]

But he would have loved to have got him in a less lethal spot had he punched cheek and Galini have stepped back. And then they would have taken a breath. He would have been just as happy. He didn't mean to kill him, but he got him in the carotid artery and. And thus the story progresses.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. But I mean. Right, he more wants to humiliate him, like publicly or whatever, privately, but he wants to humiliate him.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Can I mention now the second line that plays in my head all the time from this movie, other than my wife and I have not performed the sex act in years, which, by the way, my wife. My wife and I perform the sex act plenty of times. Don't, don't. Don't worry about that. But the, the. The other line, and I actually find it to be quite, quite touching, is Battalucci. What is. How do you pronounce his last name?

[Griffin Newman]

Michael Vatteluccio Battaluccio.

[Jordan Hoffman]

When, when the trials go on, off the rails. And he says, is this procedure such a strange line reading? Because he's new to the court system and he's. And earlier he's like, don't. Don't let these rich guys fool you. They're just like us. They put their pants on one leg at a time. They use the toilet just like us. Ed, you know, it's a great moment. And then he's like, ed, is this what happens? And Ed doesn't say anything because he doesn't know. Ed. Ed, is this procedure? And I find that, you know, we all think of like, God forbid we should ever be in court. But you do think that when you're doing something real professional, like a medical thing or a courtroom thing, like, it's going to be by the book and it never is. Like, if you ever go in to get your tonsils out, you would think, I find, like, you, you know, you go to. You go to a medical thing, and it's like, oh, we're going to text. We're going to text you to have you come into the next room. It's like, text what From Text, I mean the, the years ago, there was no text. This is how it's done. Is this procedure? Sure, that's how I feel constantly in life. Is this procedure like procedure? Shouldn't this be. You know, I recently, I recently moved to New Jersey. I had a change.

[David Sims]

Congratulations. You held for applause.

[Jordan Hoffman]

No, I recently changed. You want to Ben? Yeah, Ben's gonna fly. He loves New Jersey. Grandparents used to live in Point Pleasant, which is a great spot.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah, lovely town.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Just changing your Verizon account. Just changing. You would think. What's this thing?

[Griffin Newman]

You know, the, what you're referring to is the enshidening of modern life. I will say.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Well, this movie was written in modern times. You know, battle characters, representative of the past. But I think he, he, he speaks to me in the now. Now. Well, but Geico is the friggin company. You would think I was the first person ever to move from New York to New Jersey and get my. It's so complicated. It's so. You have to have four. You know, I'm gonna tell you something, you're gonna fall out of that. Very comfortable.

[David Sims]

You want to burn this entire chunk right now. Because I know you're working on a comedy dynamic special move into New Jersey.

[Griffin Newman]

To speak to Battalucha's character.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Well, I, I gotta talk about Geico real quick. This is what? You can't just say, hey Geico, David's.

[David Sims]

Taking out a cigar cutter.

[Jordan Hoffman]

This is so quick. This is so quick. You can't just say hi guys, Hoffman here. Geico, how you doing? I moved to New York, New Jersey. Okay, bye. No, yeah, you have to officially change your, the license plates and go to the dmv. Wait, wait, no, this is the funny part. This is the funny part. You have to call Geico 10 minutes before you go to the DMV. I'm serious. He says to me on the phone, call me back. When you're about to walk into the dmv. You have to do it the morning of. Why can't I do it after? No, no, no, you could get a penalty. So why can't I do it two weeks before I go? Why do I have to do it like a maniac in the parking lot of the dmv? Do it right before you go to throw a bottle. No, it's true. I don't care.

[Griffin Newman]

I want to talk about the movie.

[Jordan Hoffman]

But is this procedure. That's what it was. It's insane.

[Griffin Newman]

If I can speak to Battalucha's character. I had thought 15 minutes ago about the movie.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. All right.

[Griffin Newman]

Shut up, Jordan.

[Jordan Hoffman]

All right, all right, all right.

[Ben Hosley]

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[Griffin Newman]

Botolucho's character is a guy. He's the boss at the party barbershop who has hit his spot in society and is like, I am so happy here. Right? And all he does all day is talk defensively about how great it is to be exactly him, right? You know, it's like, yep, this is where I gotta be, right? No higher, no lower. Small business owner, one employee, that's it. I own the store. And there's a tragedy to what happens to him, which is he gives away everything to protect his sister, who is, you know, he shouldn't do that. But there's also something again with Ed Crane where you're like, ed Crane clearly is like, I can't stand this fucking. Yeah, right, like, and I hate that.

[David Sims]

He thinks he doesn't say it now. Maybe if you're 11 or 12 years old, Frank's got an interesting point of view, but sometimes he got on my Nerves, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I hate that he thinks like, this is, you know, whatever the best you can get. So that also comes close to an explanation for why Ed is like, maybe I should try to get some dry cleaning money. Like, maybe I should escape. And like, why Ed is sort of so disdainful, quietly, of all the normal people around him. And it speaks to socio. Sociopathy or whatever, a sort of antisocial kind of feeling that he's not really expressing. But that's all just like Battalutro is kind of like a quiet, like, little guy.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I mean, if you had to work with that guy all day, maybe he would.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he would drive you fucking house.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He would make you want to, you know, blackmail James Gantz.

[David Sims]

But all of his lines, lines that sound like kind of cool, stylized, like funny dialogue when you actually look at the text, them are just like, I don't understand these people. Right. Like, I'm confused by behavior, basically. And I was just. I'm looking at some of the quotes here, but like the line where he talks about him and Doris getting married, he said, you know, I think her line was, I know you as well as I'm ever going to. And she's right. She was right. You know, this notion of the relationship never got deeper from that moment. Moment. This feeling of like absolute confusion. Even the opening lines of the film are him talking about like the other people, right. They're going about their day and I'm holding a secret.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And there are all those shots in the car of him just watching passers by, like. Like an anthropologist on Mars.

[David Sims]

Yes, exactly. This, like absolute confusion at it as we're saying. Things keep lining up for him so well. Right? Absolutely. Like in sync with tragedy that it feels like is cosmically this guy, like, blessed in some way. Like, why is this the luckiest man in the world who keeps dodging the.

[Griffin Newman]

Car Extent that at the end of the movie, aliens try to abduct him and he's like, no, I don't think so.

[David Sims]

But also that happens after he has now gotten pinned with the one thing he didn't do. What takes him down, what sends him to the electric chair, what makes the aliens decide that he's not worthy of their time, that they don't give a. He's not worth studying. Right, Right. There's just nothing really going on here is that it's like the one thing I didn't do ends up being the thing that sends me to death. And I'm just sort of like, I don't really know what's on the other side of this.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And he doesn't see well, in a way, I'm about to say, he doesn't really seem to mind death. He, in a way, is saying, maybe it'll be better.

[Griffin Newman]

He's definitely like, that'll be a place where things will make sense.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. No, he's kind of. He. The last line is actually very touching. He says, I'm going to be able to say something. Something to Doris that they didn't have.

[Griffin Newman]

Words for here or something touching and also psychotic.

[David Sims]

But it's what I. Why I think this film is a weirdly emotionally sincere film because it is like a sympathetic tragedy about a psychopath. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Maybe not a psychopath, but someone sociopath is struggling with whatever, interacting with human people.

[Jordan Hoffman]

A little meug.

[David Sims]

And I think it speaks to the like Scarlett Johansson thing where he's just like, I don't know, something's animating me here. I got to keep going here. Do you want a blow drop? No. What are you talking about? Right? She has that speech where she tries to give him the gift of being like, you know, they're people like you. They're like patrons of the arts. What's the line she uses?

[Griffin Newman]

You're saying it. I mean, I don't know.

[David Sims]

She's almost trying to give him like, here you go. Here's your label. Here's what you do. I know you're.

[Jordan Hoffman]

You're an enthusiast.

[David Sims]

You're an enthusiast.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. Which is.

[David Sims]

I know you're confounded about the fact that nothing drives you. Maybe this can be it. Right. But in exchange for what? And then he goes and sends her to the expert, and the expert's like, nothing. And he's like, she's bad. And it's like, no, it's just. There's like, nothing. She's like a girl plays piano.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, yeah, the expert, of course, played by the chubby rain guy from Bowfinger.

[David Sims]

Love that guy who transitioned.

[Jordan Hoffman]

There's another.

[Griffin Newman]

Is that right?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Correct.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[Jordan Hoffman]

There's another parallel universe in this movie which has a happy ending, which is he accepts the blowjob from the underage girl and he learns to love life.

[David Sims]

And the car doesn't crash.

[Jordan Hoffman]

The car doesn't crash. He's like, what? Wow. Blowjobs from Scarlett Johansson are terrific. I love life. And. And the movie ends and then it goes into color. Right? And then everybody's happy.

[David Sims]

But there's also no takeaway from that scene. Movie goes into color. Age of Aquarius place.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

There's no takeaway from that scene where he leaves that room and is like, it. They're wrong. I know you're a star. We're driving to New York City. I'm getting you on the Ed Sullivan show, right? Where he's a guy who's now fanatically devoted to proving everyone wrong. Wrong. And, like, you know, Colonel Tom parkering her into what she means to be.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It just feels like he's like, I don't know. Is this the answer? And they're like, no, that's nothing. And he's like, then I got nothing.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. Yeah, that's funny, right?

[David Sims]

And like, my life flashes before my eyes, and the one thing I regret most is not saying to my wife, hey, thanks for that, you know, or like, good job out there with Christopher McDonald's.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It's shocking. This movie wasn't a hit.

[Griffin Newman]

I was about to say, no wonder that it was not that well.

[Jordan Hoffman]

But I get back to the Billy.

[David Sims]

Bob Thornton thing where you're like, is this guy, like, a pill or is he a genius? Is he, like, completely out of touch with himself or more in touch with himself than anyone else where he ever.

[Griffin Newman]

Sort of spoke to these ideas. It was on Canadian Public Radio or anything like that.

[David Sims]

I don't know if you've seen the fits he has thrown at the recent Landman premieres.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I will say I have not been checking in with his.

[David Sims]

He looks a Captain Jack Sparrow on Crystal Mask. Cool. He is like, oh, wait.

[Griffin Newman]

To be clear, that doesn't actually sound cool. I don't think I want Captain Jack Sparrow.

[David Sims]

Google Billy Bob Landman premiere.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Is it still season one of Landman?

[Griffin Newman]

Season two is about to debut in.

[Jordan Hoffman]

The fall, so I got time. I'm going in on Landman. I'm going to be your Landman.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, wow. It's interesting because again, on Landman, he's just like a guy with glasses and a button down, down. But yes, he is kind of giving, like, you know, male Ani Defranco or whatever.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Like, wow.

[Griffin Newman]

He's like.

[David Sims]

He's making his stage Johnny Depp look minimalist.

[Griffin Newman]

His beard looks like he's got, like, a hat on top of a kangal. Correct.

[David Sims]

And like, the. The most.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Wait, that looks like. That looks like Aquaman. What the hell's Aquaman's name? He looks like a deflated momoa there.

[David Sims]

All these guys.

[Ben Hosley]

It is the biggest earring, too.

[Griffin Newman]

A big earring and a lot of chains. And I don't mean chains like Ben chains, like a lot of, you know, peace and love and dog tag.

[Jordan Hoffman]

What a weirdo.

[David Sims]

I find the WTF interview very interesting because he talks so much about how defensive he is. Right. And that his attitude has always just been like, I don't care. I shut it all down. I'm me. And then you're just like, this guy is so hair trigger. Right. He cannot find peace within himself.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He needs to get Ed Crane in.

[David Sims]

He's the opposite of Ed Crane. And that like he cares too much about Ed. Everything, all the time.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He's the man who's everywhere. Right. The man who was there.

[David Sims]

Do you know he was married five times before Jolie?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. No, I didn't.

[David Sims]

Was he before Jo?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Was he married or dating anyone other in the public eye other than Jolie?

[David Sims]

He was in a years long relationship with Laura Dern who he left for Angelina Jolie. And then after Angelina Jolie he said, I'm never going to get married again. And he ended up getting married to the woman he's been with for the last 20 plus years.

[Griffin Newman]

Years. He met up in England, who's a makeup.

[David Sims]

He is the adopted daughter of Walter Murch and she is often credited as a makeup artist, but she was primarily like a special effects puppeteer. She worked on a lot of the Full Moon pictures. She worked on like Puppet Master and Prehistoria. She seems like similarly odd and driven by her own interests.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Can you imagine what their home is like?

[David Sims]

I cannot.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It must. And then, you know, that's normal. No, I think their basement is like as the greatest Halloween basement of all.

[David Sims]

I think they have a well decorated house.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

But I just think there's an interesting kind of like thing between two.

[Jordan Hoffman]

The character and the actor here did has. He doesn't really direct like Sling Blade he wrote and directed and One False Movie he wrote. But Carl Franklin directed.

[David Sims]

Right. And all the pre horses and then he did the aforementioned Daddying them and he did a film called Jayne Mansfield's Car and both of those barely got released. Both of those are kind of dramedy ensemble pieces. It's not about Jane Mansfield.

[Griffin Newman]

No. But there's a car she may have once owned or something like that.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Well, that I would not want that car.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, it's the car that she died in.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. No, that's of all the cars. It's the one you don't want.

[David Sims]

That film's 20 years ago.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. You'd think he stopped and he put out 17 albums. I mean, Jesus.

[Jordan Hoffman]

No wonder he was angry. He put out 17 albums. Yeah. Listen up.

[David Sims]

You're like, he's kind of the king of these shows. Where you're like, who's watching that? But also apparently everyone's watching it. And he's got a mantle full of awards.

[Griffin Newman]

Landman is the. Is the true hit. But Goliath, yeah, was Goliath was something of a hit. I. I mean, and obviously he was good on Fargo, like, you know, playing a sociopath, like playing a crazy killer, man.

[Jordan Hoffman]

You know, he. He was in a very bad movie with Sheila Boo Goof called Eagle Eye. And he's good in that.

[Griffin Newman]

You're in a mess of trouble. Yeah, that's like what he does.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, that movie is so bad. But he was so good in that that I've actually watched that movie a few times.

[David Sims]

That's the thing he stopped doing because of the TV work.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He doesn't need to do Landmarks.

[David Sims]

Talk about that. He would do the things that animated him, right. Coen Brothers movie. He'd write his own thing and his agent would go, it's been three years since you've been in a movie that's after advertised at a bus stop. And he'd show up and he'd be the Europe in a big world of trouble.

[Griffin Newman]

You're in a big mess of trouble, son.

[David Sims]

Now, right? And now he just like does the one thing.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Do you remember who directed Eagle Eye? Yeah. What's that guy up to?

[Griffin Newman]

He made the triple X movie, right? The third.

[David Sims]

Triple excellent. I want to say triple excellent. It's triple excellent. It's the best of the trilogy. Easily.

[Griffin Newman]

That is true. He has made three movies since then. Redeeming Love a Christian faith based movies.

[David Sims]

I was gonna say one of them.

[Griffin Newman]

Was at least Shut up in, which is sort of like a thriller that didn't seem to go anywhere. And then yet another religious movie. Mary about.

[Jordan Hoffman]

So his Eagle Eye is his. Is his. Is his masterpiece.

[Griffin Newman]

And it looks like Anthony Hopkins was in the one. I bet he was working real hard. The film came out November 2, 2001 in limited release. But this is to speak to the sort of, you know, the box office offerings at the time. I want to note that while this movie was not a big hit hit, it's opening the same weekend in limited releases. Amelie and Amelie was a movie that obviously post 9 11, America was like, we like this whimsy, please.

[David Sims]

And you know, was like the film that broke box office records in Europe in 2000. You know, it took a long time to come to the States and then it landed at just the right moment in just the right climate. Climate.

[Griffin Newman]

I need a French pixie to tell me how to live Right now. And then like building. And people are like, no. Where's the French mixing now? Number one at the box office this weekend. Griffin is an animated film that is good. We have remarked upon its possibly deleterious effects on animation.

[David Sims]

It's called Monsters, Inc. As a whole, it's Monsters, Inc. And is also cited as one of the first big 911 post 911 hits.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

It has a huge opening weekend, $62 million. And the Pixar folks were like, we thought the film was good. It was tracking well. But then it kind of of like wildly overperformed. And there was this feeling of like, oh, this is exactly what people want.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I paid to see it now. You know, it's funny, I. I mentioned that my wife and I first met right around this time period. How we. We. I remember the first time I ever saw the trailer for Monsters, Inc. Was like one of the first dates with my wife, with whom I have the sex act. Perform the sex act.

[Griffin Newman]

A little Lady Duff protest.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It's not. It's not much of a performance. But we. We performed the sex act and early on we did it more frequently. And I remember going to see at the Ziegfeld, may she rest in peace. We went to the Zigfield and saw a funny girl. They had a reborn. And we saw the trailer for Monsters, Inc. And we've been dating for two weeks. And I'm like dying at the trailer because Mike Wazowski.

[David Sims]

And so I was going to say.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Dying at the trailer. I go, I can't wait to see that.

[David Sims]

Mike was asking. A bit of a spiritual animal.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I love Montrazen, the sequel, which was a pretty prequel. Not so good.

[David Sims]

I like it quite a bit.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I've only seen it once, but Monsters.

[David Sims]

Inc. Is five star.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It's very good.

[Griffin Newman]

I've seen it.

[Jordan Hoffman]

So I applaud it being number one at the box office. And I. I think it should have been. Thank you.

[David Sims]

What it open to?

[Griffin Newman]

50 or 60, $62 million in 2001.

[David Sims]

That was one of the bigger. I think that was one of the 10 biggest openings of all time at that point.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I don't know. And we'll never know. Number two at the box office is a science fiction action film starring a major star who is sort of trying to cross over into Jet Lyric stardom. It is James Wong's film, the one starring Jet Li and Jason Statham. Jason Statham's kind of the two in that one.

[David Sims]

I don't want to be the two and the one. It's like that.

[Griffin Newman]

It's sort of like Highlander with like dimensions, right?

[Jordan Hoffman]

I've never seen the one.

[David Sims]

It's multiverse Highlander.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like almost every Jet Li Hollywood movie. There's stuff but it doesn't quite the premise on paper.

[David Sims]

Like just if someone hands you a slip of paper and it says Jet Li has to travel across the multiverse killing other versions of himself so he can absorb their power.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Oh, that's.

[David Sims]

The more them he kills, the more powerful he becomes. You're like, great. And you're like, congrats, $5 million, we're buying. You pitch, you open up the. The final draft. You're like, what is this? What? How do you write this movie? Like, you feel it where you're like, the premise is so good and there's kind of no good way to drama it.

[Griffin Newman]

It's got some cool stuff.

[David Sims]

It's got some cool stuff in it.

[Griffin Newman]

It's James Wong's follow up to Final destination too. Made 43 million in the US not a. You know, did okay. And it indeed it does have a young Statham back when he was like a true martial artist. Number three. Also new. These are all new. This week is a thriller starring actors.

[David Sims]

And you know, 2001 thriller is a domestic disturbance them.

[Griffin Newman]

Thank you. I just somehow knew you needed nothing.

[David Sims]

I can tell you why.

[Griffin Newman]

Travolta in his shoulder. Ish length. No, he's.

[David Sims]

I think he's pretty close cropped in that one.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's see.

[David Sims]

He's his wife.

[Griffin Newman]

John Travolta, Terry Polo. Terry Polo.

[David Sims]

And Steve B. Sami is dating Vince Vaughn and he's convinced that her, his wife's new boyfriend slash husband is a psychopathic murderer and he's trying to protect his son. But it turns out Buscemi is actually the villain. That's the reason this is his sort.

[Griffin Newman]

Of like half cycle swordfish with the.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Goatee shaped so double busimi. Because he's in Monsters Inc. As well.

[David Sims]

That is why I remembered and got it so quickly because it was a big busimi weekend and also busi weekend. I got caught up on saying busemi and then stumbled on weekend.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I think it's. I think it's bus.

[Griffin Newman]

It was the one where he got like, bus. It's busi. Seth Rogen corrected me and I.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And it's Scorsese.

[Griffin Newman]

Scorsese.

[David Sims]

It's scorchesi.

[Griffin Newman]

It's scorchy. Busemi got like slashed in the face in a bar fight while they were making that movie.

[David Sims]

Vince Vaughn and Steve Buscemi went out Drinking in North Carolina where they were filming the movie and Steve Buscemi was stabbed in the head.

[Jordan Hoffman]

That's terrible.

[David Sims]

And they were trying to keep his character a secret because he was kind of the John Doe in the seven of the film film. Because if you know Buscemi's in it, you're like, I bet he's gonna turn out to be the bad guy.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[David Sims]

That's the misdirect. But then it got all this news coverage because you're like beloved character actor.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

Stabbed in head with beer bottle. But yes, Buscemi was king of the box office this weekend.

[Griffin Newman]

Number four at the box office is a film in which an alien is allowed to be frank.

[Jordan Hoffman]

An alien is allowed to be frank.

[David Sims]

It's a motion picture called K Pax Film is kpax.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Wait, this is so funny. This. They.

[Griffin Newman]

Let me tell you one thing that K packs ain't is funny.

[Jordan Hoffman]

No, no, no. But this is funny right now. The day we're doing this recording, like less than 24 hours ago, I a friend of mine texted me they're doing like a special Blu ray re release in a steelbook of K packs. I'm like, who the is going to pay for that? Who wants that?

[Griffin Newman]

This is the. The. The disastrous end game of steelbooks or whatever where it's like, I guess we have to do K packs.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I.

[David Sims]

No, Ben, don't do it. I'm not doing it.

[Griffin Newman]

Griffin bought cap.

[David Sims]

I'm not.

[Griffin Newman]

He just did it.

[David Sims]

I bought the rights. I'm putting it on my own label. Griffin Select.

[Ben Hosley]

He's eating a banana with the skin.

[Griffin Newman]

Did you know that there's 5k PAX books? They only filmed the verse Wild.

[David Sims]

Wow. I just want to bring up his el packs and NPACs in in future episode shortly upcoming episode and terrible cruelty next week's episode. Or is there one in between?

[Griffin Newman]

No, I think you're right. Right.

[David Sims]

We talk about how at one point point, Jonathan Demi and Will Smith flirted with making that movie together. Apex while while they were trying to make a toble cruelty together came out of originally Truth about Charlie supposed to be Demi and Smith. Demi was so desperate to work with Smith, they also flirted with doing K packs.

[Griffin Newman]

We've all flirted with K packs.

[David Sims]

Demi, Will Smith, K packs.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I love intolerable cruelty. But Demi's intolerable cruelty would have been.

[David Sims]

Great too be fascinating. Yeah, his. I. I'd prefer his K packs too.

[Jordan Hoffman]

You know, I will say something to be you all listeners and people in the room. I've never seen kpex.

[David Sims]

Jordan, when's your birthday? Send me your new address in New Jersey.

[Jordan Hoffman]

That's right.

[David Sims]

Dan, I know you said that I can't buy the KPAX Dealbook, but can I buy it for Jordan?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Can. Can do they get K packs in New Jersey. I'm going to buy a K and J Pax. What? Why is he. Is that his name? Is his name K Pack?

[Griffin Newman]

No, his name is. He's playing. Claims to be from a planet called kpax.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Crazy.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He's Mork from work.

[David Sims]

He's Mork from. Or Jeff Sunglasses.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Jeff Bridges was the starman.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[Jordan Hoffman]

So it's starman meets Mork.

[David Sims]

Sure. In this he's the therapist. In this he's the. He's the Robin Williams in the Awakenings.

[Griffin Newman]

Number five at the box office.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Is the rare Shalhoub star first build in this film? He's first build.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Wait, no.

[Griffin Newman]

That's ripping with lube.

[Jordan Hoffman]

What? Big night. No. How would that.

[David Sims]

That made 12 year 2001. There's a movie where Shalhoub is first built. It's a live action movie picture. Can you give me a genre Horror.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Oh, that's.

[David Sims]

Oh, okay.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Like the insidious of 2001.

[David Sims]

It's not like 13 ghosts. It is 13.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Wow. Shaloob is the first build in 13 ghosts.

[Griffin Newman]

He's a ghost hunter.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Oh my God.

[Griffin Newman]

I stuck in above Emeth Davidson, Matthew Lillard and Shannon Elizabeth. When will they bring us the 14th ghost? One of the past guest and friend of the show Pilot verut. Favorite movies, 13 ghosts. I multiple times went to Pilot's house and was like, what's going on? Watching 13 Ghosts. And I was like, 13 Ghosts? Yeah. Shalhoub's a ghost hunter where has to wear weird glasses to see the ghosts.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Blu Ray.com a great resource, has some of the most deranged message boards. And there is a thread that for me is one of the greatest American texts of the last 10 years. That is a guy who is adamant that 13 Ghosts was released in 3D and keep saying, anyone have any word on when it will come out in three D? Blu Ray.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Oh my God.

[David Sims]

And people respond, There is no 3D version of this movie. It wasn't released in 3D. And he keeps describing how strong his memory was of seeing it in 3D and saying, and the 3D was really good. And then people are just pulling out digital 3D doesn't happen until this point in that year. It would have been anaglyph. It wasn't anaglyph. There's no record of anything. And then he starts going to other movies, message boards and being like these people shut me down. Wow. You must have the answers. He's living in his own alternative reality.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Thirteen ghosts. The thirteenth Floor. Remember that movie?

[David Sims]

Yeah, thirteen.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Was that the same year?

[David Sims]

No, no.

[Griffin Newman]

I feel like the 13th floor is like 99. Cuz that was a. That movie is sort of Matrix.

[David Sims]

Was that in your cyberpunk watch?

[Griffin Newman]

Sure was. That is a movie that is based on a very, very dense hard sci fi novel called Simulacrum 3 and the Rainier Verner Fastbinder fam. Like miniseries Worlds on a Wire is.

[David Sims]

Based on that same text.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I had no idea. I've seen both of them and I.

[Griffin Newman]

13Th Floor is based on both of those things, which are both. And World on a Wire is someone.

[David Sims]

World Under Wire is not based on that same source material. But it is.

[Griffin Newman]

No, it is. But like. But like it's. It's using both. That's crazy. Got such dense ideas. And. And at the same time you're like, Craig Beo is the star of this.

[David Sims]

Like it's bco and mall.

[Griffin Newman]

It's Beo and Mall, baby. How did this go wrong? It's a movie and it's got like 15 twists, you know, it's got all this like, what is world?

[Jordan Hoffman]

I. I'm. I'm. I'm comfortable enough to say. I don't think I understood.

[David Sims]

I don't understand it at all. I also know it's six hours long. Felt like it was rushed. So I can't imagine like the Columbia Pictures 100 minute version.

[Griffin Newman]

Let me tell you. You. It feels a little rushed.

[Jordan Hoffman]

There's another. There's a French movie called. I think it's called Jitem Je T, which is also like about brain universes. And I don't understand that movie.

[David Sims]

Levels of consciousness.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean a lot of the time these things are. That's an Alan Renee movie, I believe. You know.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Are about how we can't understand.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Much like the man who Wasn't There. If you look for the facts, the facts aren't there.

[Griffin Newman]

Number six is box office. I agree with that. Riding Cars with Boys. The solid Penny Marshall movie that I assume we'll be covering anytime very soon. Any day now.

[David Sims]

Eminently. You can start doing the math. How many episodes until we cover that?

[Griffin Newman]

Number seven from hell. Speaking of Johnny Depp on meth. Not a bad movie on Opium or something, but you know, I like that movie. Really?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. I like from.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, I Love the graphic novel.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Obviously saw it in the theater and said, this is a nice way to spend two hours.

[Griffin Newman]

Remains insane that that graphic novel was adapted by the Hughes brothers starring Johnny Depp. But.

[David Sims]

But yeah. And was a moderate hit.

[Griffin Newman]

It did okay. Yeah. Number eight is Training Day, which did great, huh? Obviously that was the kind of thing again in the fall. People like, we like this kind of darkness. Like really, really kind of like over the top.

[David Sims]

My memory also is that it was a movie that was supposed to come out like September 16th and they like kicked it like a month out of fear of like, is this too intense for people? And then it over performed.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And people were like solid programmers. And then it wins Oscars.

[Griffin Newman]

It sure did.

[David Sims]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

Number nine is the Bandits. The aforementioned Bandits. So Thornton is. Although that movie underperformed, obviously.

[David Sims]

You love to remind.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, it did. It did. Because it was right after six Sense and stuff where it's like his will is Willis back. And then 10 is serendipity, the.

[David Sims]

Oh sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Bad rom com with few second about.

[Jordan Hoffman]

The Russian Tea House.

[Griffin Newman]

Hot chocolate.

[David Sims]

Yeah, Serendipity.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah, Serendipity.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I never saw it.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not very good.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I've had their hot chocolate.

[Griffin Newman]

Those Cusack movies after High Fidelity where Hollywood is like, you're a romcom star and he just seems so angry about that fact.

[David Sims]

Say this and yet I watched America's Sweethearts and I'm like, he is on fire in this. I can tell he doesn't give a.

[Griffin Newman]

You have defended that. He's in it on several episodes at this point. Because you've watched it sometime in the last episode. Six months probably. And your defense of it is like spread out over a few episodes. And now I'm gonna have to go and watch like, who directed that? Who's the studio executive director?

[David Sims]

Joe Roth.

[Griffin Newman]

Joe Roth's America's, which I remember being a two star movie.

[Jordan Hoffman]

What was the last Two and a half? John Cusack was in that wasn't. That was.

[Griffin Newman]

That was like.

[Jordan Hoffman]

That wasn't a direct.

[Griffin Newman]

What about Shyrak?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Nothing. Yeah, forget that.

[David Sims]

He's in that.

[Jordan Hoffman]

But he is good in that.

[Griffin Newman]

It's an interesting performance.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, yeah. Let's say he's notable in that, but it's not a direct to video shot.

[David Sims]

I mean, Lee Dale's the Butler. One of the weirdest performances ever.

[Griffin Newman]

He's Nixon in that one.

[David Sims]

He's Nixon. He plays Nixon like Lloyd Dodler. And he's like, I'm not a crook.

[Griffin Newman]

Checkers, but Love and Mercy. He's the less engaging part, although I.

[David Sims]

Do think he is quite good.

[Jordan Hoffman]

That's. No, he's great. That's. But that's all. That movie's at least seven years years old. Loving.

[David Sims]

More. More. That movie is like close to 10 years old.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It's really good.

[David Sims]

It has been that. It's. He's a weird millionaire. He's like. It's. I forget the guy's name, but he was like a film financier who was like, I want to make something. And people were like, yeah, good luck with that, buddy.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And Steve Bannon.

[David Sims]

Well done. It's Steve Mnuchin. That's who it is.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Is it really?

[David Sims]

No, no, no, no. I. I forget the name of the guy, but I'm. I'm truly. I'm scrolling back and I'm not finding. The last thing he was in, I would say of any legitimacy was Shyrak, which was now 10 years.

[Griffin Newman]

That's like 2016 or 2015.

[Jordan Hoffman]

You know, F that guy. He's got to get his.

[David Sims]

Since then. Arsenal Blood Money. Singularity. Distorted. River Runs Red. Never Grow Old. Pursuit. I mean, like.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And he doesn't even really have an excuse because when Nicholas Cage was doing this nonsense, he was in debt. He had to do it.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a Bill Pod who is like part of the Pod family who own the Minnesota Twins.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He's the one who did 11, mostly.

[David Sims]

Produces, and he did the. The Casey Affleck one.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Dreaming Wild.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I believe that John Cusack could say to his managers, Look, I make 10 of these movies a year. Let me do seven instead and give me one real movie. There's a director that would love to cast.

[David Sims]

I think he's deeply cynical and doesn't care enough anymore.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Well, then F, him.

[David Sims]

I agree. That's always the vibe I've got, because.

[Jordan Hoffman]

There are people that. That want to work and he's talented. He's wasting his time.

[David Sims]

I. He meant so much to me. And it's like, while I will defend, like, Serendipity and America Sweeter, where I'm like, this guy on autop had juice that people today wish they could conjure up. That was him at his most checked out.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Recent movie where. Where you could, like, Richard Jenkins shows up in the man who Wasn't There. Where could you plop John Cusack and say, what a great performance.

[David Sims]

He's truly like, sure. My quote is $5 million. And they're like, you're not getting that if you do one good scene in a Coen Brothers movie. Like, I think he's just Got a huge ego.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He doesn't want to do it.

[David Sims]

He is notoriously one of the biggest assholes in Hollywood.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I mean, Nick Cage had to do it because he was in tax. He had tax problems. Of course, Bruce Willis, we know he was banking up because.

[David Sims]

And like all of Cusack's closest friends and collaborators no longer speak to him anymore. It's pretty obvious how Steve Pink Tip.

[Griffin Newman]

Robinson, everyone who, like, works on a right flow by himself.

[Jordan Hoffman]

You're not within enough about him.

[Griffin Newman]

His politics are. Are normal.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Oh, he's not normal. He was. He's post swastikas on. On. On X and then he deletes them. I didn't know that was anti Semitic.

[Ben Hosley]

You know, I just wanted to share something.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

So, Jordan, a running theme with these kinds of movies is that I watch it and I'm like, this would work out.

[Griffin Newman]

I would get away with all of it.

[Ben Hosley]

And so I just want to kind of walk through, if I may, how I feel like I could pull off a happy ending.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay. All right.

[Ben Hosley]

I want to still blackmail that.

[Griffin Newman]

So you want to do that, right?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Okay.

[Ben Hosley]

But I don't invest in dry cleaning.

[Griffin Newman]

I see that coming a mile off.

[Ben Hosley]

Moment money, right?

[David Sims]

Yeah. I'm also gonna say right off the bat, even before that point, I think just like a bed of 10 years of being open and communicative with your wife.

[Ben Hosley]

Sure, I like that.

[David Sims]

Having a healthy trust.

[Griffin Newman]

But he's having the.

[Ben Hosley]

Having the sexual relations.

[David Sims]

Yes. Right. But then, of course, blackmail.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Performing the sex.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Okay.

[Ben Hosley]

We quit our jobs. Me and Francis go to the happiest place on earth. Disneyland.

[Griffin Newman]

Hey, I like this. The forties, I think. It doesn't exist yet, but I'm gonna allow.

[David Sims]

Okay, you go. You start buying land.

[Griffin Newman]

You.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Wildwood, New Jersey.

[Ben Hosley]

We rekindle the marriage.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, so maybe Niagara Falls, let's say. Sure.

[Ben Hosley]

Salacious Crumb Rye.

[David Sims]

Playland.

[Griffin Newman]

Was that going?

[David Sims]

Yeah, I think that one's really old.

[Ben Hosley]

Gaylofini still gets in trouble for the embezzlement. Okay.

[David Sims]

Yeah, right.

[Ben Hosley]

Maybe he kills Polito. I don't know.

[David Sims]

It's not my problem, by the way. This is.

[Ben Hosley]

I had to work it out.

[Jordan Hoffman]

No, no, it's. Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? Playland opened in 1928.

[David Sims]

I told you. I knew it was old.

[Ben Hosley]

Me and Francis, Mo move to New York City, buy a brownstone.

[Griffin Newman]

Hey, that real estate, baby, that will pay off.

[David Sims]

Now, you're generational, right?

[Griffin Newman]

You've got investment insight. Okay.

[Ben Hosley]

I become a successful abstract expressionist artist because that seems easy.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Totally easy. And also, it's getting deeply cynical.

[David Sims]

Also, maybe Ben, buy some IBM stock.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, yeah. Also place bets on winners of the World Series that you know.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, right. Be like, the bulls are gonna run the table. The nineties.

[David Sims]

I like that. This is the first time you're. If I had been in this movie, it would have worked out. Basically involves you being a time travel.

[Griffin Newman]

Just. It's just like googling stuff that will happen.

[David Sims]

You're in the period the movie, but you have the knowledge that you have.

[Griffin Newman]

Lastly is like, wait, someone did dots before I thought of that or whatever.

[David Sims]

Copyrighted the term computer.

[Griffin Newman]

Jackson had ice cream.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Invest in tax tang. Buy Tang stock.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[Ben Hosley]

Lastly though, I see an alien, they take me on their ship. We become good friends, besties.

[Jordan Hoffman]

That's the thing. Do you think Joel and Ethan ever had. By the way, that was terrific. Then I.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you think the Cohen would appreciate you saying all that?

[Jordan Hoffman]

For sure, yes. Individually, though. Though not as a unit, unfortunately. Now, do you feel that there was ever a moment when they were spitballing the script where they said, and. And then Billy Bob gets on the spaceship?

[David Sims]

No, no, no, no. If only because, you know, there's a clip that goes around a lot of Guillermo del Toro interviewing them for the Lewyn Davis dvd. It's one of the best extended talks they've ever done. It's like 45 minutes. Talk to him of talking shop and he says, like, you know, the moment to jump ahead. You know, we'll cover this in weeks from now. But where Lewyn Davis sees the offering to the town where he knows his illegitimate son lives.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Devastating scene. In all sincerity, drives past remarkable scenes.

[David Sims]

And you think, you know, well, I. That's obviously where the movie's going. That's going to be the next 20 minutes, if not the ending. And he said, did you ever consider that? Did you do the exercise? And he went, you know, it's funny, we never once until this moment considered that we could have written that. He drives there. And I think that is just kind of the way they think. Like the ends are you write the moment of the person not choosing the thing. They never do the mental exercise of what if they did the thing. Yeah, yeah. It just seems to be a pattern with them for sure.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah. And that's why they're great.

[David Sims]

And I think this movie, if I just kind of conclude my read on it, is like this tragedy for them about the way that they think people perceive them as. Like, imagine if you actually didn't care about anything, you know. Well, yeah, because a miserable way to.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Live like they had. They had been now making movies for. For almost 15 years. Right. So they've been around the block and they'd received plenty of criticism. And even though they're cool guys and they're the smartest guys in the room.

[Griffin Newman]

No, but they.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It had gotten under the skin. This, I appreciate your. Your read on this as this is their rebuke to their critic and they.

[David Sims]

Have this kind of steely, deadpan vibe. They don't want to speak much. They're stone faced in interviews, you know.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Well, I did make them laugh.

[Griffin Newman]

They are funny. Not forget that they are funny in interviews about this movie though, where they're like, of course Labowski got ignored by awards bodies. Of course. O Brother was sort of like, you know, just this com, you know, like, and then this. We take it to. Can we win best director? Because they're like, like, yes, black and white. You know, like, we made Nardi movie again. Like, they are always so deflective of any kind of like, oh, no, we really care about what, you know, the critics think or what the voters think. And I believe them. I don't think they really care. They know that stuff helps.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Obviously.

[David Sims]

I think if this movie was meant to be like an aggressively defensive retort to their critics, it's not that. Right. They would have been more direct about it. I think it's more them kind of interrogating the idea of how they're perceiving perceived. Right. This notion.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I think you're right. And I think if they, if they had gone stronger, they would have said themselves, why are we care? Like, you know, like, who are we to be upset about our critics? Like, we get to make movies. Like, let's shut up and make movies. You know, I think they're.

[David Sims]

They're too much like an imaginative exercise of like the type of person there accusing us of being. How would that person even function in the world?

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah, right.

[David Sims]

If you truly just don't give a. And just kind of stand around looking cool, saying cool stuff. David's checking us. Watch.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Is it time to go? We've been yapping.

[David Sims]

We come to our listeners with one simple request. We just want 157% of you to sign up for Hofstack.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Hstack.substack.com and your writing is elsewhere.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I write for. About movies and TV and stuff. But it's true. The kids are going crazy for hstack.

[David Sims]

They're loving it.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Tik Tok is out. Hovstack is in.

[David Sims]

We got any new seltzer reviews coming. I miss you doing that work.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I'm. You know, it's funny because I've been. There might be some listeners who do subscribe to the Hofstack saying, hey, buddy, when. When's your next update? I don't write constantly. I need to get back into that. But what I predict is that when this episode airs in X amount of weeks, there will be a torrent of material and it's going to be great. So if you buy now, right now, the low, low price of X amount of dollars per. I should probably raise the price real quick.

[David Sims]

No, lower it.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I'll lower it. Okay. Yeah, lower it. It's going to be great. And the people listening, you know, the blog that was there is my Hofstack. Oof. Is it? Let me tell you. Vlon vlog. Occasionally I vlog when I'm too lazy to write. I.

[David Sims]

The camera loves you.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I did a vlog about weapons. I loved Weapons. That was a good movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Loved it.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Do you think Weapons will be nominated for the best original screenplay nomination?

[Griffin Newman]

That's a request on Katie's podcast. Katie Rich from the show also subject where I was like, if that movie is a true phenomenon, you never know. And it's kind of heading in that direction. It's kind of heading in that direction.

[David Sims]

Recording this on the eve of its second box office weekend.

[Griffin Newman]

And she rightly was like, you know, there's a big, big sort of, you know, barrier to that kind of horror movie. Something like what Coogler did with Sinners where it's mixed with other genres.

[David Sims]

I was gonna say it's also Coogler's at a little bit more of an anointment point versus Craig being fresh.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I could see you can't have Sinners and Weapons nominated for best original screenplay. You never know much. I agree. It's too much. One of the other.

[David Sims]

I wonder if it's a bridge too far. But I also think Weapons has a stronger acting contender than Sinners does.

[Griffin Newman]

No, Sinners has the stronger acting contender.

[David Sims]

Who do you think the.

[Jordan Hoffman]

You think Double mbj? Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

He plays two people. The Oscars love that.

[David Sims]

And you don't think Amy Madan's gonna get nominated?

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, I would love to see that. Truly would love to see.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Wait, let me ask.

[David Sims]

We got a long season ahead of us.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I think she Did Ruth Gordon get nominated for Rosemary's?

[Griffin Newman]

She won an Oscar, my friend. That's why Crazy win.

[David Sims]

She won.

[Jordan Hoffman]

So could get nominated as I would love to see.

[Griffin Newman]

I really think that performance is Very special.

[David Sims]

I agree. And I think it's sticky.

[Griffin Newman]

And she's an Oscar nominee.

[Jordan Hoffman]

When I was.

[David Sims]

It's been a while.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I. I think Weapons. I don't think it's.

[Griffin Newman]

Ed Harris could yell at people for her.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I don't think. I don't think Weapons is.

[David Sims]

They could sit the Oscar anywhere. Arms cross, not applauding.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, exactly.

[David Sims]

Mean muggin. Looking like two grumpy cats.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Iconic stuff from that.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I don't think Weapons is anywhere near as good as Rosemary's Baby, obviously. But I do think it's kind of.

[David Sims]

One of those movies. I think, like, kind of pinnacle, a Hollywood filmmaker.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I think Weapons as a horror film is. It's not crazy to say it's. It's Rosemary's Baby.

[David Sims]

No, it's not wrong.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And you know what's so funny is that this gal who we both love, Julia Gardner, she was in the Rosemary's Baby, which is.

[Griffin Newman]

Nobody saw in apartment 70, which I thought was pretty good.

[Jordan Hoffman]

You saw it? I never saw it.

[Griffin Newman]

I watched it. It was good.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Should I watch it? I love her.

[Griffin Newman]

Each one of those things where it's like. It's directed by the person who did Relic, which is a movie I liked, which is why I watched it. And it's one of those things where, number one, you're like, I wish this just wasn't a Rosemary's Baby prequel. Right. Like, it would be fun if this was just a horror movie set in an apartment building. Number two of it is obviously be nice to see in the theater. I saw it on Paramount. Plus number three. Is it really just. It's not perfect, but it has two or three. Three beautifully directed, like, sequences that are so cool.

[David Sims]

Diane Weiss plays the Ruth Gordon. The cast of.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I'm watching it tonight. Watching it tonight. But I love. If we're talking Julia Garnet talk. I love that Australian movie. Now, Davidson does not like.

[David Sims]

Right before record about the.

[Griffin Newman]

I love the movie.

[Jordan Hoffman]

It's called the Hotel New Hampshire or something. I don't know what it's called.

[Griffin Newman]

Royal Hotel.

[Jordan Hoffman]

The Royal Hotel New Hampshire. It's very, very.

[David Sims]

Documentary is called Hotel Normandy. I think I get the name confused. Based on documentary. Yeah, it's based on the documentary Hotel for Dogs.

[Jordan Hoffman]

By the way, the. The Yelp reviews of Hotel Rwanda are terrible.

[Griffin Newman]

We gotta go. Salacious Crumb is asleep.

[David Sims]

Well, no WI fi, you know, that's no free WI Fi looking at his phone.

[Griffin Newman]

Luckily, we already recorded our ads, but I think Griffin has to record, like, a radio play.

[David Sims]

Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe, tune in next week for more podcasts and terrible cruelty.

[Jordan Hoffman]

By the way, can I just say one thing? This is kind of funny. I'll make this so quick. Once in a blue moon, I go on the blank check Reddit page.

[David Sims]

Normal place.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I'm going to the bathroom.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no, no.

[Jordan Hoffman]

This is so quick.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't care.

[Jordan Hoffman]

All right, I'll just talk to the others.

[David Sims]

My man's about to take a number three.

[Jordan Hoffman]

He's going to rub one out. Now listen to this. I will occasionally.

[David Sims]

He's going to do the sexual act.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Perform the sex act with the toilet paper. I will occasionally go on Reddit and look up myself. Of course, obviously. And look up myself on the blank check Reddit page.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Jordan Hoffman]

And this is the comment there always.

[David Sims]

Many fans on the.

[Jordan Hoffman]

No, no, no, no, no. There. This is the comment made about me. Jordan Hoffman, an underrated guest. Now that's an honor. But when will I be a rated guest? Why am I the.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm dubbing you now. Blank checks Most rated guest.

[Jordan Hoffman]

I would like to be. Right.

[David Sims]

That is your title. From here on, I feel in life.

[Jordan Hoffman]

This is my entire every. Everything I do, whether it's going to work for a company that then closes two weeks later after I promoted on this podcast, whether it's performing the sex act with my wife, of course, it's always like, hey, that was better than I expected, you know? And I'd like for once to be expected to be okay.

[David Sims]

Sims. We have dubbed Jordan Blank checks Most rated most.

[Griffin Newman]

You think I didn't hear that? You think that was quiet?

[Jordan Hoffman]

I heard that in Queens.

[David Sims]

I will say, the way you come up often in the subreddit is like once a month some user will make a post that's asking the question that people ask once a month, like clockwork. What's the best episode? What's the worst episode? What's the funniest moment? Who's the best guest? What's the worst guest? Right, These same things. And every time people do the what's the funniest moment, very often somebody will say at the top of the. The list, and I'm quoting here. Yeah, Jordan Hoffman screaming your mother's cunt. And David Sims responding. We are in a place of war.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Ben, who said that?

[David Sims]

Oh, yes, I saw somebody in the audio.

[Jordan Hoffman]

One of, one of the, one of the readers or redditors, what the hell you call them on New Year's Eve, said if you start, if you press play now on that episode I will shout your mother's at midnight. And you could. You could then usher in the new year on your mother's cunt.

[David Sims]

And what better way. Thank you for being here, Jordan. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate and review and subscribe. I feel like I said this and then I got this rail. Now I'm resetting. Tune in next week for Entitled Cruelty. And as always, I just want to end with the mirror of the quote I started the episode with because I started with Billy Bob paraphrasing, David's already left lube.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, my friend calls masturbating a number three. By the way, I think it's funny.

[David Sims]

That was the joke we made when.

[Jordan Hoffman]

You were in the bathroom while you ran doing it.

[David Sims]

We said sex act with the toilet paper.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Francis McDormand getting her legs shaved.

[David Sims]

I think she'd be nice to be married too.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Sure, yeah.

[David Sims]

Listen, the salute quote, which I do think is as much as an answer to this movie as the movie gives, is the more you look, the less you really know. It's a fact. A true fact. In a way, it's the only fact there is your mother's content.

[Jordan Hoffman]

Oh my God. Salacious. Be crumb.

[Ben Hosley]

Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas, and our Associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithey. Research by JJ Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel with additional music by Alex Mitchell, artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy. Join our Patreon Blank Check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on Social blankcheckpod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.