The Sugarland Express with Esther Zuckerman

Summary

Summary of "The Sugarland Express" Episode on Blank Check with Griffin & David

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Episode Overview

In the January 12, 2025 release of Blank Check with Griffin & David, hosts Griffin Newman and David Sims, along with guest Esther Zuckerman, explore Steven Spielberg's directorial debut feature film, "The Sugarland Express." Produced by Ben Hosley, this episode delves into the film's production challenges, thematic depth, and its significance in both Spielberg's and Goldie Hawn's careers.

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Introduction to "The Sugarland Express"

Esther Zuckerman opens the discussion by highlighting the film's convoluted marketing strategy, evident from its multiple poster attempts featuring Goldie Hawn with varying taglines:

• [00:21] Esther Zuckerman: "The true story of a girl who took on all of Texas and almost won."
• [01:12] Esther Zuckerman: "A girl with a great following. Every cop in the state was after her. Everybody else was behind her."
• [01:40] Esther Zuckerman: "This true, but incredible event happened in Texas in 1969."

Griffin Newman critiques the ineffective use of the "based on a true story" tagline, questioning its placement and clarity:

• [01:44] Griffin Newman: "That's definitely not like, obviously everyone's always made fun of, like based on a true story being a selling point."

---

Goldie Hawn's Role and Career Trajectory

The conversation shifts to Goldie Hawn's career, emphasizing her post-Oscar persona and how "The Sugarland Express" marked a departure from her typical roles.

• [02:42] Esther Zuckerman: "But this Goldie is five years past her Oscar win. Like, she's like full star, like solidly in post-Oscar win era."

David Sims references Hawn's Oscar-winning role in "Cactus Flower" and her subsequent filmography:

• [02:50] Griffin Newman: "What does she win for?"
• [03:01] Esther Zuckerman: "Cactus Flower."

The hosts discuss Hawn's evolution from comedic roles to more complex characters, noting her performances in films like "Butterflies Are Free" and "Private Benjamin."

• [07:35] Esther Zuckerman: "Comedy star, movie star thing."

Griffin Newman praises her iconic status across decades:

• [08:13] Griffin Newman: "She's a weird movie star because she is an icon. I would say a four-decade icon."

---

Spielberg's Directorial Debut and Collaborations

Esther Zuckerman and Griffin Newman analyze Spielberg's approach in "The Sugarland Express," highlighting his collaboration with William Atherton and the integration of John Williams' unique score.

• [43:02] Griffin Newman: "It is a good title, but it doesn't really tell you anything about what you're in for."

The hosts commend Spielberg's decision to tackle a true story with personal undertones, setting the stage for his future cinematic endeavors.

• [53:28] Griffin Newman: "He is a very good one, but an expensive one."

Esther Zuckerman emphasizes Spielberg's intuitive direction and empathetic interaction with actors:

• [53:36] Esther Zuckerman: "Spielberg is someone who is Collaborative with actors. You really feel like he's trying to meet them where they are."

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Themes and Narrative Structure

The episode delves into the film's central themes of flawed parenting, desperation, and the pursuit of familial unity against societal constraints.

• [24:05] Esther Zuckerman: "There's things like 'Shampoo' where, like, you know, she's a character in crisis because she can't fully hold the guy down."

David Sims draws parallels between "The Sugarland Express" and other contemporary films like "Badlands," discussing the portrayal of rebellious youth and dysfunctional families.

• [70:11] Griffin Newman: "I'll say it. I love Badlands."

The hosts critique the film's pacing and character development, noting its departure from traditional Spielberg blockbuster formats.

• [90:43] Griffin Newman: "But it does feel that way where in 'Sugarland,' he's like, I'm treating this like pretty realistically. And this is a human movie about people in odd circumstances."

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Critical Reception and Legacy

Esther Zuckerman reflects on the film's initial reception, contrasting Pauline Kael's glowing review with general audience reactions that didn't resonate as strongly.

• [57:19] Griffin Newman: "But knowing George Lucas, he just, like, mumbled something."

Griffin Newman cites Spielberg's later success with "Jaws" and "Close Encounters" as milestones that overshadowed his early work but also built upon the foundational storytelling elements seen in "The Sugarland Express."

• [86:15] Griffin Newman: "I think of 'The Sugarland Express' as sort of what you have happening in 'Jaws' and 'Close Encounters' at a more personal scale."

The episode concludes by acknowledging "The Sugarland Express" as an essential, though less commercially successful, part of Spielberg's illustrious career and Goldie Hawn's evolving filmography.

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Notable Quotes

• Esther Zuckerman [01:12]: "A girl with a great following. Every cop in the state was after her. Everybody else was behind her."

• Griffin Newman [07:10]: "It takes her another five years until 'Private Benjamin,' like 'Foul Play' was. 'Foul Play' was a hit."

• David Sims [08:13]: "She made a movie called 'Lovers and Liars.' That's what the magic is."

• Esther Zuckerman [24:19]: "There's this sense of like, she's a spark plug. She's a firecracker, right? There's like a spirit within her you can't dampen."

• Griffin Newman [53:28]: "He [Spielberg] is a Collaborative with actors. You really feel like he's trying to meet them where they are."

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Conclusion

Blank Check with Griffin & David offers a comprehensive and insightful examination of "The Sugarland Express," shedding light on its production nuances, thematic complexities, and enduring legacy in the realms of both Spielberg's directing career and Goldie Hawn's acting repertoire. This episode serves as a valuable resource for film enthusiasts seeking to understand the underpinnings of one of Spielberg's earliest works and its place in cinematic history.

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Note: This summary intentionally omits sections related to advertisements and non-content discussions to maintain focus on the episode's primary analysis.

Transcript

[Griffin Newman]

Blank check with Griffin and David. Blankjack with Griffin and David.

[David Sims]

Don't know what to say or to expect.

[Griffin Newman]

All you need to know is that the name of the shadow is Blackjack.

[Esther Zuckerman]

The true story of a podcast who took on all of Texas and almost won. Oh, okay. So I found three different posters for this movie. All of them have very weird taglines.

[Griffin Newman]

Because this was a movie no one knew how to sell. You can tell by when you look at the three posters where you're like, ah, this is three attempts getting it across.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I want to take the. Let me recite the three at bats. The one unifying element is all of them were like, Goldie Hawn picture.

[Griffin Newman]

Big face. Big, big Goldie, please.

[Esther Zuckerman]

We have one undeniable movie star. A. A Academy Award winning movie.

[Griffin Newman]

But the one you're quoting from this one, like, it looks like she's just having a ball.

[Esther Zuckerman]

She's on the poster.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, she's just smiling.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Her giant, smiling painted face directly below it. Her holding a shotgun. The true story of a girl who took on all of Texas and almost won. Okay, then there's this one, which is my favorite graphic poster.

[Griffin Newman]

That's the poster I think of.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I think it's the best.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? With a teddy bear.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right. Her smile in that is a little more demented in a way that comes closer to representing the film where it's like, this is a woman on edge. The tagline is a girl with a great following. Every cop in the state was after her. Everybody else was behind her. And then the third poster I found the tagline, is this true? But incredible event happened in Texas in 1969.

[Griffin Newman]

Which.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And it's just big Goldie Hawn. Shotgun. Goldie Hawn in the Sugar Land Express.

[Griffin Newman]

That's definitely not like, obviously everyone's always made fun of, like, based on a true story being a selling point. But, like, based on a true story is supposed to come after your tag.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Correct.

[Griffin Newman]

It can't just be like, this happened. And I'm like, okay, what happened? Goldie Hawn.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And there were cars.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You won't believe it. She had a gun.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's just funny. The first two taglines almost tell this, like, something about Mary.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, everyone's after Goldie. A whole line of police. Cops.

[Esther Zuckerman]

This is a hard movie to sell, but I can understand how it was weirdly received at the time, especially if you're, like, expecting just a Goldie Hawn vehicle.

[Griffin Newman]

I understand, of course, why they were like, let's sell this a Goldie Hawn vehicle. Not as a Ensemble piece, which is what it is. As you're saying. Goldie Hawn was an Oscar winning star.

[David Sims]

William Atherton vehicle.

[Griffin Newman]

We got Atherton.

[Esther Zuckerman]

We're going to talk about Atherton.

[Griffin Newman]

We will.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But this Goldie is five years past her Oscar win. Like, she's like full star, like solidly in post Oscar win era.

[Griffin Newman]

What does she win for? Cactus.

[David Sims]

Cactus Flower.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Cactus Flower.

[David Sims]

Have you ever seen, should we say it?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Walter Massau, Ingrid Bergman, Cactus Flower. Introducing Goldie Hawn as Tony Cactus Flower.

[Griffin Newman]

Have you guys seen it?

[Esther Zuckerman]

I've never seen it.

[David Sims]

I write about it in.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, in your book, which we'll talk about. Cactus Flower is incredibly charming. It's really cute and she's good in it.

[David Sims]

But she plays a girl who's in love with Walter Matho.

[Griffin Newman]

Walter Matthau is this dentist. Is a fuddy duddy dentist. Ingrid Bergman, who rocks in it.

[David Sims]

He's like, he's so funny.

[Griffin Newman]

Shrinking violet. You know who really she had done.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Laughing and that was her first real movie.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm saying Ingrid Bergman. No, I'm sorry.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Of course, was a main cast member on Laughing.

[Griffin Newman]

And of course her first film was Cactus Flower. Everything else, she was uncredited. Casablanca. Uncredited.

[David Sims]

And Goldie is like this hippie.

[Griffin Newman]

She's a hippie. She won an Oscar for playing the first hippie in a movie. Is really how it felt.

[David Sims]

Who, like, says she's gonna kill herself. So Walter Matthau decides to tell her that he'll marry her, but he has to get divorced from his wife first. But he doesn't have a wife. So then he asks Ingrid Bergman to like, pretend to be his wife. And then obviously, like, he and Ingrid Bergman fall in love. And then there's this other young hottie who Goldie falls in love with.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It is. It is an Americanized, modernized adaptation of a French farce stage play.

[Griffin Newman]

It's one of those movies, you watch it and then someone's like, based on French farce. You're like, okay, okay.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Decades later, it was remade by Adam Sandler and Dennis Dugan as Just go with it. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, same basic.

[Esther Zuckerman]

In which Brooklyn Decker plays the Goldie Han role.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I mean, again, plays the Isabella Rossellini or Ingrid Bergman.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, Isabella Rossellini senior.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Should have gotten Rossellini play.

[Griffin Newman]

They should have. That would have been good.

[Esther Zuckerman]

We were talking about wrestling Sandler.

[Griffin Newman]

The math out of his time.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Kind of in his kind doggy.

[David Sims]

Kind of.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Different styles in a way.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But like, yeah, if Sandler announced tomorrow he was doing a pilum 123 style.

[David Sims]

Oh, that, that would rule. That would be so good.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, because we like Sandler in New York mode.

[Esther Zuckerman]

We all experience that. The thought of that.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, we just like him to be rumpled and New York Sandler in a.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Shitty Su as Pat eating a stale hot dog, looking hungover, just going my favorite description.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, like math now in Cactus Flower isn't rumpled. He's playing like. It's like when you watch Mad Men and you're like these kind of chubby guys with glasses would like pull babes and it's like yeah, man, New York in the 60s. And that's math out.

[Esther Zuckerman]

The pan line I love is that like the 70s were such a weird time for movies that your action films would be like, only one guy can stop this. And the camera pans over to Walter Matho in a crumpled suit eating a stale hot dog.

[Griffin Newman]

It's so true. But that's what she won her Oscar for. And if I'm not wrong, she's only had one nom apart from that Private Benjamin. She got nominated for Private Benjamin, right? Is that it? Yes, yes, let's find out.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But she laugh and starts the year before Cactus Flower comes out. This is a time when actors and look this law what we're talking about on early Spielberg, transitioning from TV to film was difficult. And she's transitioning from a sketch show to film. And then her first movie, she wins an Oscar. And then her follow up movies are There's a Girl in My Soup. I have not seen that great title Dollar Sign.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, Dollar Sign which makes a movie called Dollar known as Dollars.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Warren Beatty and Goldie Hawn in Dollars.

[Griffin Newman]

It's. That's a, that's a bank robbery movie where she plays a lady of the night.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Butterflies Are Free. Yeah, and then this.

[Griffin Newman]

Butterflies are Free was a big drama that won an Oscar itself, but not for Goldie Hawn, but like she was.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Undeniably a movie star. And yeah, it does feel like in that first couple of years she hasn't quite figured out how she works as a leading lady yet.

[Griffin Newman]

Definitely hasn't. And I think it takes her another.

[David Sims]

Five years until Private Benjamin.

[Griffin Newman]

I think basically until Private Benjamin, like Foul Play was. Foul Play was a hit. Yeah, yeah, that was so that, you.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Know, with, with Chevy, I think that starts the transition.

[Griffin Newman]

Obviously Shampoo, she's amazing in it, but that's about. That movie's about this guy and he's like hot or something. She made a movie called Lovers and Liars. That's an Italian movie. So. Yeah. And then I feel like Private Benjamin and then she has her whole 80s is like a pretty reliable sort of.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Comedy star, movie star thing. Yeah, right. Whereas in the 70s, she's still like. I mean, it's. What's fascinating about this is this is kind of an odd choice for her. Like, it's not an obvious movie star. She's well cast, she's great in it. Yeah, she's.

[Griffin Newman]

Would we all agree that Goldie Hawn good in the Sugarland Express?

[David Sims]

Yeah, but it's so funny actually, just sort of like looking at her, you know, filmography. It's so she hasn't made like all that many movies.

[Griffin Newman]

She's a weird movie star because she is an icon. I would say a four decade icon. 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. She is at the top of the heap of the type of like star she is. Right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Like sort of the point I'm trying to make is like she immediately becomes an icon the second she appears on screen and laughing.

[Griffin Newman]

Huge icon.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Here's this woman with blonde hair and huge eyes and she's got the flowers, huge mouth.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

The flowers painted on her body.

[David Sims]

Crazy mouth.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And she says, socket to me or whatever. And people immediately are like, this means something.

[Griffin Newman]

The mailbox was Haldeman.

[David Sims]

The mailbox was Haldeman.

[Esther Zuckerman]

No, but like people looked at her like she was the fucking.

[David Sims]

The mailbox was Haldeman all the time.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Pile of mashed potatoes in Close Encounters and were like, this means something. This is culturally important. Right. And then she, within a year, like goes to movies, wins an Oscar and they're like, you are legitimate. You're no longer just like pop iconography. We are taking you seriously. And so like throughout the 70s, she's just undeniably culturally humongous before figuring out what her thing is. And then she has a run that's like big in the 80s, she slows down in the 90s. She's made three movies in the last 25 years.

[Griffin Newman]

She has. So like. But even in the 90s, Goldie Hawn. We're just starting off with Goldie Hawn before we introduce the podcast. Which is fine, it's fine, it's good. Have we ever covered Goldie Hawn?

[Esther Zuckerman]

This is a great question. One time for the movie Swing Shift. Swing Shift, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I was the one time we covered.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Her, which is a very complicated film in her career.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, it is. But in the 90s, I would say the only hits she made were Death. Death, Excuse me, in order House Sitter, which is both a huge hit and kind of a well remembered Cable movie Death Becomes her, which is a big hit and well received. And then her 90s Apex's First Wives Club, which people forget, made tons of money. But I feel like it's also like, when you think of 90s Han, she looks like that. Yes, Right. Like the same with 90s Middler. And honestly, 90s. Yeah. Like, their looks are that.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But those are three big. Oh, when I said she's only made three movies in the last 25 years, I forgot that she did two Christmas Chronicles.

[Griffin Newman]

She is Mrs. Claus in the Christmas Chronicles 1 and 2.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right. Because I was thinking Town and country, long delayed in 01, banger sisters O2. Then she doesn't do a movie until.

[Griffin Newman]

And when we cover Chris Columbus on this podcast, we will do The Christmas Chronicles 2, but not one, because he didn't direct the first one.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But you're saying she. Those were her only three really big.

[Griffin Newman]

Hits in the 90s. In the 90s, she invert on a wire, like, is kind of a flop. Deceived is like forgotten. Crisscross is basically forgotten. Completely forgotten.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right. Everybody.

[Griffin Newman]

Everyone says I love you. It's an ensemble thing. And out of towners, it's kinds of out of towners. Town and Country Banger Sisters. It's kind of like, you know what? Yeah, I don't. I mean, I think she decides she's done.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

But like, it's like, I think, you know what the Goldie Hawn business is not.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Hollywood business anymore. Really.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But here's another thing. Like the three big hits you said in the 90s. Those are big Hollywood movies. Yeah. Where the other thing was, like, she was someone where you could just sell it on. It's Goldie Hawn. Plus, like, the pairing of Goldie and someone would excite someone. You know, Bird on a Wire is like melon. Goldie is like the whole selling point.

[Griffin Newman]

Definitely.

[Esther Zuckerman]

She did two movies with Steve Martin. You know, she like, did like four movies with Warren Beatty. Like, it was a lot of like, Goldie, Goldie plus someone equals excitement.

[Griffin Newman]

God bless her. Having the name Goldie, she really lucked out. Her birth name. It's a cool name. Goldie.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Is Han her real last name?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, Goldie Jean Hawn.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I mean, she nailed it.

[Griffin Newman]

She did nail it. Her parents, of course, Laura and Edward nailed it. I would say half Jewish. Is that right?

[David Sims]

Goldie Hawn's half Jewish. Somebody is half two Paul Newman's have to put them together.

[Esther Zuckerman]

That's one fine looking Jew.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Her mother was Jewish. Her mother was Jewish.

[David Sims]

Thank you, Griffin.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Of course, Haldeman.

[Griffin Newman]

I got you with the mailbox as Haldeman, though.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's not your fault.

[David Sims]

Well, okay. I had to. I will say that I do love the 30 Rock laughing parody. And the other one is like the fake Goldies. Like, like your pardon.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right, Esther, it's not your fault. And I'm not accusing you of mumbling or not pronouncing properly, but when you said half Jewish. This is just the cultured poison culture we live in. I heard it as hawk2ish, and I was like, are you accusing Goldie hawn of being hawk2ish?

[David Sims]

I think you should cut that.

[Griffin Newman]

Should Goldie Hawn go on Hawk to it.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I just need to talk to be honest about also.

[David Sims]

Sorry, it's twa.

[Griffin Newman]

What? I'm sorry, what?

[Esther Zuckerman]

What?

[Griffin Newman]

It's not talk to her. It's talk twa.

[David Sims]

Yeah, because she's.

[Griffin Newman]

Please, please finish the sentence because it's.

[David Sims]

Like she's sitting on the dick.

[Griffin Newman]

I understand what she was saying on.

[Esther Zuckerman]

The street Empire built on the fact that she said it a weird way that she didn't say the way that.

[Griffin Newman]

She spin on that thing.

[David Sims]

I think it's twa.

[Griffin Newman]

As someone who saw that TikTok like, naturally and had the same reaction that apparently millions of Americans did, where I was like, that girl's a firecracker. I love her. And so now we've crowned her queen of media. She definitely said tua.

[Esther Zuckerman]

She said tua.

[David Sims]

Then I'm wrong. I thought it was twa.

[Esther Zuckerman]

No, TWA would be if you were playing it real, if you were doing a realistic performance.

[Griffin Newman]

The whole reason Hawk Tua was funny is not because she says hawk to a spin on that thing that is funny. It's that she then lets out this kind of genuine laugh because she knows she said something silly.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And you're like, ah, she's not so bad. She should, like, throw out the first pitch at a Mets game. Maybe she should have a podcast. And then by 2025, I'm like, she's Secretary of the Interior. Are we sure?

[Esther Zuckerman]

If we're lucky, she only messed it up. The Secretary of Interior. No, but I look for our younger listeners and I say this as if the three of us lived through Goldie Hawn's emergence.

[David Sims]

We did.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But I do feel like Goldie Hawn appearing on Laugh and was similar to the Hawk to a girl immediately Griffin out of a cannon.

[David Sims]

Griffin.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I'm not comparing the work. I'm comparing the cultural impact.

[Griffin Newman]

I think I'm just pro Hawk people Said we're fire. I think she's great. Unless she's done something bad by the time this episode comes out, which is eminently possible, she is endorsed like Viktor Orban at this point. Again, I have no idea what she does on that show. I just. I'm like, you never know with Hawk. Tua. Has anyone listened to the podcast? I've seen clips from it on TikTok, but they tend to be 30 seconds long. Sure. I've heard that she brings on occasionally, like hometown friends.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I think that's fine. More than occasionally. I think that sounds great. Grandma's the co host.

[Griffin Newman]

That sounds good. Like her talking to other influencers. That sounds boring. Her just kind of being like, this is my vibe.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Sure. What it is. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Great.

[Esther Zuckerman]

None of us know what the third most popular podcast in the world is.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. But what I heard is that her friends were people who clearly had never, ever spoken into a microphone ever before.

[Esther Zuckerman]

In their entire lives.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And weren't the best at being able to have an engaging conversation.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Can all be hot.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Tua producer hands them on mic. They spit on that thing. They don't know what to do with it. They've never been on Mike before. They spit on that thing. This is Blankfeg with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm David.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's a podcast about filmographies and not about the Hawk to a girl.

[Griffin Newman]

Look, this episode's out in two months. It's not so dated. Except she's kind of. She's been a thing for a long time. So I was gonna say this is.

[Esther Zuckerman]

What I like about talking about the Hawk to a girl. In episodes we record far in advance. We can't imagine how much bigger she'll be by the time this comes out. It's not like she'll become passive.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

She's the star of Anyone but you Too, by this point.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Anyone but anyone.

[Griffin Newman]

Some Sony executive's arm hair just stood.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Straight hearing that Tom Rothman just ejaculated.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like, yeah, that's. Get that a green light at $82 million.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Look, this is a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion products they want. Sometimes those chicks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. We're talking about the most successful filmmaker in history, period. Right. I do think it's still basically uncontested.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, of course. Is there any dispute of that? No, of course not. He's certainly earned the most money.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, does James Cameron have him beat money wise? My guess is no, though, because Spielberg just has so many, you know, more movies.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Spielberg's more. More of a mogul, too.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, then. And there's that, too.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Cameron, I feel like, makes most of his money from his good deals making the most successful movies in history. Spielberg also has his finger and his fingers in many other pots. He's getting that fucking Universal Studios ticket Cut. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Looking it up.

[David Sims]

Isn't James Cameron getting Disney?

[Esther Zuckerman]

James, I will probably repeat this 8,000 times across this series. When Universal decided to start a theme park expand past just the backlot tour, the big coup was we get Spielberg to sign on as our, like, chief creative.

[David Sims]

Oh, so he gets, like, I believe.

[Esther Zuckerman]

He gets 20% as a director of ticket sales across all parks in perpetuity.

[Griffin Newman]

As a director. Just director.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

Spielberg has Cameron beat by $2 billion.

[David Sims]

Oh, that's a lot of money.

[Griffin Newman]

Again and again. Look, he's got. He's made many more movies, right? But, yeah, he's got him beat.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah. We're talking about the first half of Steven Spielberg's career in a series we're calling Podrasic cast. And today we are talking about his first.

[David Sims]

What, sorry?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Podrastic Cast. Spin on that.

[Griffin Newman]

Sound better the more you say it. Yeah, exactly.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Esther Zuckerman]

We should get Haley Welch to say it. She'd probably know how to make it sound good. I mean, I'm laughing already.

[Griffin Newman]

I love it.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Today we're talking about Steven Spielberg's first intentional feature film theatrical film. Yes, yes. He still calls it his first movie.

[Griffin Newman]

He calls this his first movie. And that makes sense because it's the first thing he made that was released.

[Esther Zuckerman]

In theaters around where someone said, we are giving you money to make a movie. Here you go. It's called the Sugar Land Express. And our guest today joining us, Blank Check's own little firecracker, Esther Zuckerman.

[David Sims]

I wear that badge proudly like Chuck's little firecracker.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Esther. You write about Goldie Hawn in your book?

[David Sims]

Yeah, you know, it's.

[Esther Zuckerman]

You have a new book coming out?

[David Sims]

I have a new book coming out. It will be out by the time this episode is. It like is Heirs airs Is the right word Drops. Drops. Yes, it is about rom coms. I write. Yes. I write about Cactus Flower a little bit. You know, it's funny. I write also about Goldie in the context of her daughter, Kate Hudson, who. You never heard of her? Actually, you know what? Something really fun. It's not really funny. Whatever. I was at brunch the other day at like a local restaurant and there was a girl trying to explain to her boyfriend, like, Goldie Hawn, she's Kate Hudson's mother. And he was like, I don't know.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Who those people are and I don't care either one.

[David Sims]

I. I'm not sure. He just seemed so like, stop talking to me Wild. And I'm not sure what brought it up, though. I think it might have been the fact that all of the. The Han Hudson family is doing a skims holiday ad campaign, though. Not Kurt and not Wyatt.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, you're kidding. They didn't want to jump in on that one.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But doesn't Oliver have.

[David Sims]

Oliver is in it.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Oliver's popular podcast in the world anyway.

[David Sims]

Oliver Hudson, of course.

[Griffin Newman]

The fuck is that?

[David Sims]

Kate's brother?

[Griffin Newman]

Never heard of this motherfucker.

[Esther Zuckerman]

He has a podcast called like I'm a brother or something. Shut the fuck up. To deal with the US Anyway. Trillion dollars. I swear to you.

[Griffin Newman]

The Agency of Global Commerce has signed.

[David Sims]

To Broadcast People's Brains promo.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, you have. Self promo.

[Esther Zuckerman]

What's the title of the book?

[David Sims]

Fallen in Love with the Movies. Falling in Love at the Movies and Romcoms from the Screwball Era to. To Today. And it's with tcm. And I talk about, you know, I talk about the female rom com star and sort of talk about, you know, Kate's run of, you know, being a major rom com star and how like. And the descendant and Goldie as sort of the. The sort of forebearer of that in. Especially with Cactus Flower and winning the Oscar.

[Esther Zuckerman]

There is an argument for, and I wonder if this is the argument you're making, that Kate was sort of the last person who got to pursue a conventional rom com movie star career at a high level.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I mean that's not. I don't really.

[Griffin Newman]

She's in that last generation with Heigl.

[David Sims]

And yeah, I don't really go chronologically the last generation.

[Esther Zuckerman]

End of it.

[David Sims]

But yes, I don't really go chronologically. So like, I sort of talk about, you know, when I talk about the female stars of the rom com, I sort of divided into two major types, which is the spitfire and the relatable queen in the sense that like, what is Kate Hudson? She's a spitfire.

[Esther Zuckerman]

She's definitely not a relatable.

[Griffin Newman]

That's what I was about to say. Maybe we're. We're maybe noticing what Kate Hudson's issue was, is she's a pretty poor spitfire.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I talk about goldie I mean, it's interesting because, you know, it's funny looking at her. She doesn't have that many straight ROM coms, which is sort of interesting in the context of, you know, obviously Overboard as a classic one. A Cactus Flower is one.

[Griffin Newman]

But she did a lot of, like, capers.

[David Sims]

A lot of capers. Like, Private Benjamin really isn't like, stuff like that isn't a ROM com.

[Esther Zuckerman]

No. But also she. So many of her movies were sold on. It's Goldie plus X. Right. Like, it was like two big movie stars. She does two movies with Chevy Chase. She does Best Friends with Burt Reynolds. Right. She does like two movies with Kurt. Bird on a Wire Is Mel and Goldie first names Only. She has two Steve Martin movies. Like, that was kind of the formula. But most those movies, even when there is a central romance, I would not.

[David Sims]

Classify as rom com.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right. House Sitter is not a ROM com. Yeah.

[David Sims]

So, yeah. So I do, you know, as a nice way to sort of like, sponge our way into promoing my book for this. For this podcast. Thank you, guys. I appreciate it. I do talk about Goldie and I do talk about Cactus Flower in a chapter about the man in Crisis rom com. It's sort of all about a chapter about all the rom coms that are basically about, you know, it's such a female coded genre, but so many of these rom coms are about men having deep problems.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah. But also, admittedly, not having seen it. Cactus Flower feels like one of those, like, pictures of the revolution, turning point movies.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Where you're like, Mathau is like an old guard movie star and here's a movie about him trying to reckon with a flower child.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

It is.

[Esther Zuckerman]

That is launching its own star. I know it has other things going on, but, like, isn't that part of the alchemy that.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Goldie was kind of the first off the conveyor belt of like, this is a new movie star who represents a new type of woman that has not really existed in the media up until this moment.

[David Sims]

Which also sort of makes, you know, Sugarland Express so interesting in her career.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Because I don't know, it feels so. It does. It feels so sort of outside of what she's known for doing.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, because I feel like the. Even when she's in kind of like I'm falling apart Liberty Jibbet mode. Right. There's a sense of, like, Goldie having some sense of self.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

There are things like Shampoo where, like, you know, she's a character in crisis because she can't fully hold the guy down. But there's still this sense of like, she's. She's. She's a spark plug. She's a firecracker, right? There's, like a spirit within her you can't dampen. And that's certainly part of the equation of Sugarland Express. But the other part of it is, like, what the fuck is going on in this woman's head, Right? Like, so much of this movie is everyone just being. And I guess this is what those poster taglines are trying and failing to capture is like, this whole movie hinges on what is she thinking, even just from the initial setup of like, why the fuck are you gonna try to break out of prison when you're four months away from being released? And athlete's like, I. I just don't. How do you deal with her?

[Griffin Newman]

And because it's Goldie, it makes sense. And it wouldn't make sense with everybody, but that is Goldie's magic, I would say she makes movie kind of logic make sense because she's such a big personality. And to the extent that later in her career or even in this movie, a movie like House Sitter is basically like, what if you met a Goldie Hawn type, like, can be basically kind of the premise of your movie of like, oh, she's crazy. Like, in fun, but insane. But, like, a lot. But, like, you know, bewitching. You know, it's like. It's just like, yeah, Goldie Hawn's in your life.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Is this the only movie that, like, makes her dangerous?

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know. Private Benjamin. She was in the army. The U.S. army.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Responsible.

[Griffin Newman]

She is. Oh, nothing goes wrong.

[Esther Zuckerman]

She gets there.

[David Sims]

She gets there. She's a Jewish American princess in that movie.

[Griffin Newman]

I know. That's a good movie.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Wildcats. Is she dangerous in that one? Running a football team?

[Esther Zuckerman]

I've got some dangerous plays.

[Griffin Newman]

The Banger Sisters. Did they make, like, explosives?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Is that why they're called that? Never seen. I gotta say, never seen the Banger Sisters. That's a classic movie that came out when I was a teenager where I was like, none of this. No part of this is for me.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I think I remember getting the completely expected perfunctory Best Actress in a musical or comedy nomination for Goldie at the Golden Globes. And when they cut her in the audience, you could on her shrug. He was like, maybe I'm retiring. Maybe.

[Griffin Newman]

Unless Amy Schumer makes a movie, I'm out 15 years. Is she good and snatched?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, I like Snatch.

[David Sims]

I Actually liked. I like that movie.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, it wasn't well received, but, like, quickly got a. There was a bit of a whispering of like, I know we're all over Amy Schumer, but Snatched ain't bad.

[Esther Zuckerman]

That was my take.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Snatch. Snatch. Loki. Good. And. And felt like one of those things of like, oh, here is one of the few like, major kind of eternal movie stars where her coming out of retirement is going to be a big deal and it wasn't.

[David Sims]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Where it's like, we got Goldie and audiences are like, who.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Even compared to like 10 years before that, when Jane Fonda does Monster in Law, it did feel like the press.

[David Sims]

Was like, oh, that was huge.

[Esther Zuckerman]

This is important.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. She's been retired for 15 years, shackled to Ted Turner's bed, and now she's free to be in this, like, you know, five out of 10 movie.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But made a ton of money.

[Griffin Newman]

Did. Yeah. People saw it, people showed up.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, Snatch made some money.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Snatch did not do very well.

[Griffin Newman]

How did Snatch do?

[Esther Zuckerman]

You know what I think a big problem with it was?

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, it made 45 worldwide domestic.

[Esther Zuckerman]

No. Okay. That's not terrible. I thought it was even. I thought it was closer to 30. I feel like it had a better title throughout development and then they changed it to Snatched at the last minute and it was like this. This was a mistake.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, that's if you change the title. Okay. But so what was the original title?

[David Sims]

It had the working. No, it had a Mother Daughter. Mother Daughter.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's better than.

[Griffin Newman]

That's better than Snatched.

[David Sims]

Yeah. It's still bad though.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

It got its ass kicked by King Arthur. Legend of the sword. Oh, no, it didn't actually. Actually beat King Arthur. Legend of the sword.

[Esther Zuckerman]

That's embarrassing for King Arthur. David.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

You know what I love?

[Griffin Newman]

I don't.

[Esther Zuckerman]

You never told me some guesses. You know, some things that I love. Correct. Da movies.

[Griffin Newman]

Da movies.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And glasses. Wearing glasses.

[Griffin Newman]

You do wear glasses.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Actually.

[Griffin Newman]

Didn't even know if you loved it or not.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I do. I hate contact lenses. I'll just speak candidly here.

[Griffin Newman]

Fair enough.

[Esther Zuckerman]

They creep me out.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Bit weird.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And I like having good vision. I don't like seeing things blurry. And I like the. The way the glasses look on my face.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you like shopping for glasses?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, here was the thing. I used to abhor it. It was a very complicated process. I didn't even know where to begin.

[Griffin Newman]

Uh huh.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Warby Parker's made all of that a lot easier and a lot More fun. I look forward to every time I get to refresh with a new pair of warpies.

[Griffin Newman]

I will tell you something about Warby Parker, please. They use nothing but premium materials in each frame and they design each frame in house. Okay. So they offer everything you need for happier eyes. Eyeglasses, sunglasses. Your hated contact lenses.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I'm just. That's my personal preference. I'm staying away.

[Griffin Newman]

But because of their process, their glasses start at 95 bucks.

[Esther Zuckerman]

This is the thing I really like.

[Griffin Newman]

Really, really cheap. I've got cheap eye exams starting at 85.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Because glasses can be so expensive from traditional retailers, the old dinosaurs of the glasses industry, that the pressure of that decision, what am I going to put on my face? Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Could be overwhelming. And with Rory Parker, it's not like I'm just throwing money everywhere, but it does feel like there is a flexibility.

[Griffin Newman]

I've been to Warry Parker too, but I have good vision, so I just get sunglasses.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, but wait a second. You have a couple pairs of sunglasses right there on your desk.

[Griffin Newman]

I do.

[Esther Zuckerman]

From our friend, the king of Tik Tok. They call him the king of sunglasses.

[Griffin Newman]

He sent some very nice sunglasses.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Warby Parker's been doing some collabs with some notables, including our friend Reese Feldman, who sent us these pairs of glasses. This is the thing I like about them. There's a lot of flexibility. They're constantly coming out with new looks. But you can take sunglasses and put prescription lenses in them.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, it's.

[Esther Zuckerman]

You can use them as reading glasses. You can use reading glasses as sunglasses. You could do anything you want.

[Griffin Newman]

You can also, when you add a pair, you save 15% when you purchase two or more prescription pairs as glasses. That's an offer they've got in home and it's in stores. They got free shipping. They got free 30 day returns. Let me say something to you. Get started with Warby Farker's virtual try on. You can try on glasses and sunglasses, seeing the realistic color, texture and size of each style. Right from home. Right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Now, let me explain what this is. This is literally, you go on their app, you go on their website, it uses the cameras, it shows you what those glasses would look like on your face. And if you're someone who's a tactile person, you can pick a glasses, they send them to you, you try them out, you send back the ones you don't want. 250 physical retail locations. And let me say, they're very relaxing spaces.

[Griffin Newman]

They're nice spaces.

[Esther Zuckerman]

They're nice spaces. And I Go there to get my eye exams as well. I've been a Warby or bus person for maybe a decade now. Yeah, I wear nothing.

[Griffin Newman]

But head over to warbyparker.com checkright now to take the home. Try on quiz and pick five pairs of frames to try on at home for free.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Easy. It's fun.

[Griffin Newman]

That's warbyparker.com check. Warbyparker.com check.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Look, I want to. I want to be on topic here. Let me just say this.

[Griffin Newman]

The Sugarland Express.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It is Wild Four. You know, this is a movie where Goldie is minted as a star, but has not quite figured out her thing yet. Spielberg is getting his first real shot at making a movie. Then both of them go on to have wild success over the next couple of decades. They never work together again in any capacity.

[Griffin Newman]

I wondered about this. Yeah. Why did they never work together?

[Esther Zuckerman]

I've sensed no ill will. He speaks very highly of her. You have to imagine they're constantly, like, overlapping parties, Right? And it's just funny that they never did anything together ever again. And it's almost as funny as when you remind people that Steven Spielberg's first movie was a William Atherton. Like, it just doesn't feel like. Wait, dicklas from Ghostbusters at one point was Steven Spielberg's leading man Atherton also.

[Griffin Newman]

Never, never worked with Spielberg again.

[David Sims]

You would think he'd pop up and, like, you'd think Spielberg could use him.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Like, I will say respect. I feel like Athron has a reputation for being very difficult, and I feel like, who knows? If J.J. gets into this in the dossier.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, we'll see.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But I think there was a bit of a narrative that he kind of blew. His leading man shot after this movie, and then when he comes back in the 80s as, like, it's like stiff ass. That was sort of.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, that's your Lane rebrand.

[Esther Zuckerman]

He came back a little humbled not.

[David Sims]

To jump ahead, but did you guys look up the guy who plays Slide and what his deal is?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Wait, what's the.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Should we just.

[Griffin Newman]

You mean Michael Sacks?

[David Sims]

Yeah, the guy.

[Griffin Newman]

Because he's in Slaughterhouse 5.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yes. But no one does that like what he likes.

[Griffin Newman]

Is it. Is it good?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Michael Sacks, he worked at.

[David Sims]

He worked at. He worked at Morgan Stanley for 10 years.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay. He's just like, oh, he just became a rich guy.

[David Sims]

Became a rich guy.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, interesting.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Michael Sachs did nine movies in total, Right? Two of them TV movies. Slaughterhouse Five, Sugarland Express, The Private Files of J. Edgar Hoover. Hanover Street, Amityville Horror, Split Image. His final film in 1984 is the House of God.

[Griffin Newman]

It's kind of crazy that he was the star of Slaughterhouse Five, which is not. People don't remember that movie now, but it was a big movie, George Roy Hill movie. And he was the out of nowhere Billy Pilgrim. And then. Right. He does this. He's pretty good in this. He's got the right look and yeah, like by the 80s he's done. And I guess he retired before.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, yeah, he's like doing movies with like Harrison Ford. He's doing medieval horror. Like he's in big shit. And then I'll just read this paragraph. After spending time working in technology positions on Wall street, in 2004, Sachs joined the online bond trading company Market Access A X E S S as head of global applications development. He was employed by Morgan Stanley from 1994 to 2004's executive director, global head of bond technology for the fixed income division.

[Griffin Newman]

Griffin, this is not interesting.

[Esther Zuckerman]

This is fascinating.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, reading it aloud. I mean, I mean, it's interesting that he just pivoted to being a rich guy, but it just held like all.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Of these positions for.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he's fancy.

[Esther Zuckerman]

40 years now and he's still alive.

[David Sims]

Yeah, you can look him. I just, I just looked him up on.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Ben Johnson lived a lot longer than I thought.

[David Sims]

Should I connect with Michael Sacks on LinkedIn?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, you should. The thing with Ben Johnson is you're like, oh, he lived like another 20 years after Sugarland Express. So he must have died at the age of 100. No, he died at 77. He's only in his 50s. In this movie he reads like so much older. And of course he won the Oscar a few years prior to this. And it was this Oscar that was kind of like, ah, the old lion of the, you know, Western, like this old vet. And it's like he was like probably like 48. And they were like, hi, oh, we're sending you out to pasture, Ben.

[David Sims]

You know, Rick Dalton.

[Esther Zuckerman]

The reason it felt that way is a lot of these guys died at 52.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I mean, to be clear, I think he was. He probably was in his 50s. Yes.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But still, like, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, Even like, you know, Robert Shaw, who will cover next week, was dead within three years of Jaws. A lot of these guys died very young and died very young basically of old age where people just lived so far kind of.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. They just accelerated down the old. Right age road.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Ben Johnson lives until the 2000s is making movies until the end. I was like, right, he's in Angels in the Outfield.

[Griffin Newman]

He lived until 96. 96.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I'm sorry, yes.

[Griffin Newman]

No, 96. Yes. He. He died of a heart attack visiting his still living mother at a suburban Phoenix retirement community where they both lived. So I guess he was like going to the building across the street or whatever, and she lived another four years and died at the age of 101.

[Esther Zuckerman]

That's insane.

[Griffin Newman]

It's kind of insane. And there's a sculpture of Ben Johnson in Pawhuska, Oklahoma, that you can go see.

[David Sims]

Pawhuska. That's where they filmed Killers of Flower Moon.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, then we should go see the statue and then the location of that film.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Pawhuska Live show.

[Griffin Newman]

They have a venue, do you think? Like, what's a comedy lounge? What's like a. What's a chain? What are they Exactly.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Bananas with a Z. David, crack open the dossier. Because there is more of a gap between Duel and this than I remembered.

[Griffin Newman]

Duel. Have you seen Duel? Esther Zuckerman.

[David Sims]

I have never seen Duel all the way through. I've seen clips of Duel.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It rules.

[Griffin Newman]

Duel does rule. Check it out. Dual rule. Dual rules to stop. Steven Spielberg makes Duel.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, it's.

[Griffin Newman]

It's kind of hot stuff. And everyone's like, at least in the.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Industry, not saying, like, but there's buzz.

[Griffin Newman]

Everyone's like, okay, what's Steven gonna do? And Steven says, Steven Spielberg says he was offered a bunch of movies right out a Duel, but they were kind of bad, right? Like suddenly it's like, yeah, yeah, get that guy. But I think he's probably being sent whatever warmed over projects are kind of sitting around, right? So instead he does two more TV movies, which I think we're planning on discussing on our Patreon. Yes, Something Savage, right? And you know, he basically. So something evil was for cbs. Universal let him out of his contract to do it because they had nothing for him to do. And then Savage, which has Martin Landau, was a true. Like he says, the only real time that Universal was like, you have to do this.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Literally, like, you owe us.

[Griffin Newman]

Exactly, yeah. Have not seen Savage. Have you seen Savage?

[Esther Zuckerman]

No. We will watch it land out mugging.

[Griffin Newman]

It up in that one. And then he's thinking of making a movie called McCluskey based on. Sort of based on something that Greedo once said to Han.

[David Sims]

Oh, you.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's based on that in the same way that Sugarland Express is based on True story. It takes some liberties. It changes some of the words. Clunky yeah, that's what I'm saying.

[Griffin Newman]

I know.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's sort of based on inspired spirit.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Okay. Because that is the real thing that Greedo said a long time ago. Still, it's the funniest in the world.

[Griffin Newman]

Weird that he just says McClunky.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Conor Ratliff. When we do George Suga's talk show, anytime he refers to the McClunky cut or he tries to, like, sort of pathologize the thought behind the McClunky change at the last minute, it feels like the kind of thing Connor would make up. And it's so weird that it's just really the last thing that George Lucas did before selling the company.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Like, one little, like, perfect change, and.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Then I'm ready to let go of Star wars forever. And his final statement was McClunky. Anyway, Spielberg wanted to make McClusky a.

[Griffin Newman]

Burt Reynolds vehicle, which is later made by Joseph Sargent and is given the slightly better title of White Lightning, which is, you know, a good title on Spielberg. Truly works. Like, comes aboard that project but decides not to do it because he's working on it for, like, two months, scouts some locations, is starting to casting, and he's basically like, this is like a journeyman movie that, like, is a Burt Reynolds vehicle. Why am I doing this?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And so he backs out and decides, like, I need to do something a little more personal, which is why I'm sort of like, how'd you get to Sugarland Express? But we'll get to that.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes. Major pin in that, because I got some. Some thoughts.

[Griffin Newman]

He also briefly was flirting with California Split.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

And cruisin'I'm. Assuming that's not the freakin moving. Not the freakin moving. That's Cruising with apostrophe.

[David Sims]

Imagine Steven Spielberg directing Cruising.

[Griffin Newman]

Steven Spielberg's Cruising. Like, they go into the gay bar, and the camera just doesn't go in. It's just like, let's. Let's leave.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I was gonna say it's the most explicit handshaking movie you've ever seen. Hello. Nice to meet you.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, God.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Just leather daddies tipping their cat, right? Good afternoon.

[Griffin Newman]

She was like, this is sick.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Unbelievable. The violent underbelly is Cruising with an apostrophe. The movie that ends up being the. The Curtis Hansen, Tom Cruise, Jack Yellow Haley movie or a third, entirely different movie that's losing. Oh, I'm sorry.

[Griffin Newman]

I. I don't know what Cruising is, but okay. JJ has highlighted it. Now. Spielberg had been thinking about the Sugarland express since, in 1969. He had read A news story about this true story. He'd pitched it to Universal back then about this Texas couple that took Highwayman hostage. Universal is like, eh, this seems like a bummer. No. But now he's got a little juice. Okay. So he's trying to revive it. He takes it over to Jennings Lang, who pairs him with these screenwriters Hal Barwood and Matthew Robbins, who have a credit on the movie. Right. Along with Spielberg. Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And Robbins becomes a major collaborator. I mean, he's in the Spielberg Amblin ecosystem. He's working with Lucas a lot over the next couple decades. He's a major recurring figure.

[Griffin Newman]

He wrote even recently, he wrote the screen story for Guillermo del Toro's Pinocchio.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah. He wrote Batteries Not Included.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Which. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so they have a title, Carte Blanche. Oh, interesting. French for blank check. He knew they wrote a script in like 13 days. And universal thinks about it, but puts it in turnaround. But then they revive it and for whatever reason, you know, Hollywood, crazy business. I guess they respect Stephen enough to be like, okay, let's fucking do it.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Do you have any sources on that? Can you cite Hollywood?

[Griffin Newman]

Hollywood's just a crazy old town.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah. It's hard for me to believe that.

[Griffin Newman]

Uh huh. Spielberg says he likes the kind of media circus part of it. Right. It's not just that he's interested in this couple. He likes the sort of American condition of today. You know, sort of statement you can make about it. Like he relates it to Ace in the Hole, the great Billy Wilder movie. Right. About. It's not just about the event, it's about the thing that unfolds around the.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Event, which, you know, does start to become a major theme in American movies across this decade. Like Dog Day Afternoon is sort of the apex of this.

[Griffin Newman]

A better film than the Sugar.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I agree. But this, the modern relationship to crime and news and. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

The first wave of. I mean, Ace in the Hole is actually more of the first. But. Yeah, but of like television and television, all that stuff.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Sugarland Express becomes the title. I don't know.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Universe title.

[Griffin Newman]

It is a good title, but it doesn't really tell you anything about what you're in for.

[Esther Zuckerman]

No, but it's kind of like the catchy title. It's the. The Peter Bogdanovich Paper Moon story where he's just like, that just sounds good.

[Griffin Newman]

It does sound good.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And he reaches out the worst and Wells and he's like, what do you think of Paper Moon? He's like, the title's so good, you don't even need to make the picture. Like, Sugarland Express doesn't tell you anything about the movie, but it is just kind of a fun set of words.

[Griffin Newman]

Universal is basically like, we will do this, but you need a star. And so that's how Goldie Hawn comes aboard.

[Esther Zuckerman]

He has two recent Academy Award winners in this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Who's the other?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Ben Johnson.

[Griffin Newman]

Ben Johnson, you're right. Of course.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Had just 1971. Right? Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Spielberg has acknowledged later on that casting Goldie Hawn was risky because you do kind of expect a Goldie Hawn picture, and this isn't that. Right. But also think of this movie is sad. Like, this is a downbeat, you know, experience. It's not a Goldie Hawn picture in that.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Our point, she has not quite figured out what a Goldie Hawn picture is. True. So, like, you're playing with sort of, like, weird elements, but I do think.

[David Sims]

That the Goldie Hawn, like, idea is still the girl from Laugh.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Absolutely.

[David Sims]

She's just gonna be wearing a little mini skirt and doing a little dance.

[Esther Zuckerman]

This is what's interesting about it. And, you know, you can listen to our Swing Shift episode.

[Griffin Newman]

Come on, Liz. It's the 90s. That. That is maybe the greatest line delivery in that episode.

[David Sims]

It's the perfect episode.

[Griffin Newman]

It is my favorite episode of 30 Rock.

[David Sims]

Probably never follow a hippie to second location.

[Griffin Newman]

Never follow hippie to a second location is just unbelievable. It to me, that's the epitome of what I think 30 Rock is about, especially in the early seasons, which is about Liz. The allure of Jack Donaghy to Liz. Right. Of like, no, I don't want to be like you. But also, this era of politics and thought kind of is like, eh, I have to stop worrying about being radical and just make money. Like. And Jack Donaghy is the devil on her shoulder being like, yes, big office. Be me.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's the heart of the show.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is the heart of the show.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Tina Fey's relationship to Lorne Michaels, 100%. Her, like, alternating confusion, revulsion, admiration.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, not romantic attraction, but, like, you know, just, like, to that lifestyle. And, like, the most good 30 Rock episodes end with her going to his office and him being like, well, lemon. And she's like, yeah, I don't. And he's like, you know? And you're like, this rocks. Is the best.

[Esther Zuckerman]

My favorite running thing on 30 Rock is when they get angry by people suggesting there's maybe sexual chemistry, but never. Right. The show is like you.

[Griffin Newman]

That's also the Episode where Jack Donaghy says, ship a robe.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Oh, okay.

[Griffin Newman]

When he does the entire group therapy with Tracy Morgan playing, like, 16 characters. Like, right? Yes.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But that's not the lemon. It's 5pm what am I, a farmer?

[Griffin Newman]

No, that's not. That's early.

[David Sims]

That's. That. That is in.

[Griffin Newman]

Is that black tie?

[David Sims]

No, that's in Tracy does Conan.

[Griffin Newman]

That. Right. That's really early. Yeah, that episode's good.

[Esther Zuckerman]

That's just. I rewatched it, like, two years ago now. I want to just watch it all.

[Griffin Newman]

Solid gold.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Here's what I was gonna say. Ten years later, she does Swing Shift. We covered slingshift many years ago on the podcast. Right. Swing Shift is a movie where this calamitous production birth, post production battle. That's basically because Goldie won't let go of what a Goldie Hawn movie is in her head. That she could not accept a movie being a piece of a Jonathan Demme movie. And was like, my Persona is this. Kurt and I have this chemistry, this and that. Right. It's interesting that Goldie Hawn represented a very clear thing at this point, but hadn't figured out how to successfully build a movie around it. So she seems more open to just being an instrument for Spielberg.

[Griffin Newman]

She's a very good one, but an expensive one. Griffin, because she had a deal with Universal so they could get her, but she costs 300 grand. The movie's budget is about $2 million. So, like, she's. She's a big. She's a big ticket to a fourth of the budget. And. But she says recently, she said this.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I guess it was the 1/5 of that.

[Griffin Newman]

Whatever. But she says it was the most beautiful time. I love Spielberg. I was amazed that this young man I worked with so many years ago went on to make all these movies. I love you, Steven. That's her take. William Atherton, Spielberg says. And I do like this take from him. He says, very soft spoken, but with wild eyes. You could easily misunderstand him, like looking through a pair of binoculars.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

You know what I mean? It's sort of like I wanted to cast someone who maybe looked crazy, but not in, like, an obvious way. Atherton. And then he says he cast Michael Saxton because he looked like Atherton and he wanted them to resemble each other. Like, he wanted them to be two sides of the coin.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, kind of straight laced and crazy. It is funny, but it can be distracting sometimes.

[David Sims]

They kind of look alike.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's just funny that Atherton's thing. At this time is, is this guy insane? And then it just. Within a decade, like, this fucking suit.

[Griffin Newman]

Is here to ruin your party. Like, yes.

[Esther Zuckerman]

The second he walks on screen, you're like, get him out of here. Buzz kill.

[Griffin Newman]

Spielberg says Han is Wonderful on take one and two. Her gets her second win on take seven and is Marvelous again on take 12 or 13. On the other hand, Atherton is this New York actor who's very serious and demanding and he gets better with takes. So Goldie would be weighing wearing thin as Bill was getting better. I love to hear directors talk like that. Like. Like I. Because then you. You really are like, yeah, they know. Like, they think about this stuff and they won't talk about it too much because. Because it's a little impolite.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But also, look, this is Spielberg.

[Griffin Newman]

But now it's like 50 years from now. Spielberg can talk about this first proper movie.

[Esther Zuckerman]

He's directed less than 10 professional things at this point, right? In total. And for him to already have a sense of like, you know, when people talk about, you know, an actor's director, director who's good with actors, what that really means is someone who is intuitive and empathetic and observant and understands how to deal with different people differently, right? Because there is no one size fits all right thing. And like, you do have actors who have different processes, different like arcs of when they're going to have the most juice and shit like that. And for Spielberg to already, at this age, be able to clock that and be able to manage that and figure out how to like create a flow around that. It's like the Spielberg blocking shit, right? Not to get ahead of conversation here, but it's like, you know, you look at this movie and it already has the crazy Spielberg 1ers that are totally unshowy. You don't notice until like two minutes in, like, wait, there hasn't been a cut. And it's always. It feels like for the sake of. How would I put it? It's like story economy, right? Like he's trying to simplify things and I'm sure also simplifying his shoot day by figuring out how to get thing in one extended shot. And the blocking is so precise. But you compare it to someone like Hitchcock who would do similar things, but was so contemptuous of his actors and talked about them like paper dolls and puppets, right? And he would like hire a movie star and just be like, do your movie star thing and then hire a woman and yell at her, you know? And like, Spielberg is someone who is like, Collaborative with actors. You really feel like he's trying to meet them where they are and like synthesize different sort of acting styles, performance styles, tones and whatever. But in an era where a lot of other filmmakers are going like, I let the actors do whatever they want. They're free. There's no blocking, the camera's loose, we're shooting it almost verite, style. Like that's the style that's on the rise because this kind of traditional blocking framing, sort of like intentionality of shot structure is starting to seem a little rigid and classical and passe. And he's like this one guy who's able to marry the two things, like the modern style of performance and like treating actors as collaborators, but also have these sort of very intentional man, the actors keep on landing at just the right spot at just the right time.

[Griffin Newman]

Absolutely.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's just wild to me.

[Griffin Newman]

They shot it for 60 days on location in Texas, shot in continuity to keep costs down. Makes sense because of all the cars you need at the end of the movie. Spielberg is basically never working, has never worked with a crew this big. Right. So Saul, sorry, Zanuck, the producer is like, well, let's ease him in, give him a sense of control. And then gets to set on the first day and says he was about to get ready for his first shot. And it was the most elaborate fucking thing I'd ever seen in my life. All in one shots. Camera going and stopping people going in and out. And he had such confidence in the way he was handling it. And I was kind of like, oh, I don't think I need to warm this kid up. He'll be fine.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Also, this movie, he's already working with Vilmos, John Williams and Verna Fields.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And Vilmas Jigmund had just done McCabe and fucking Long Goodbye. Right? Like, it's not like he's some amateur they picked up off the heat. He's already like really hot stuff.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right. This, this Spielberg, Altman overlap, I. I keep finding fascinating.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Because Williams had done Close.

[Esther Zuckerman]

They were at this point in time for very different filmmakers. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And Spielberg had loved McCabe, which is, he says is his favorite film that Zigman ever shot. And images. And he loved Deliverance and he loved the Long Goodbye. And he said, I'd heard about this crazy Hungarian who lights with six foot candles and would try anything. So I sent him the script and he loved it. And I said I wanted to shoot this whole picture in the rain with windshield wipers going. And he was like, let's do it, bro. They only shoot. They only work Again on Close Encounters. Also a good looking movie, though.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I think a pretty terrific looking film. I think two of the three best looking things he ever shot.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Along with the pilot for the Mindy project. That's his final credit.

[David Sims]

He's so.

[Griffin Newman]

She's so funny. I can't do. I don't know what he sounds like.

[Esther Zuckerman]

How can she balance her work with her.

[Griffin Newman]

I think three of the guys here need to sort of be cycled out for other guys. Remember how many project would be like, that guy's fired. This guy's in, like, over and over again.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Two new guys.

[David Sims]

Maybe too much Ike Barinhole.

[Griffin Newman]

Lots of, oh, you want less? Okay, okay. We can last. We can have last. Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I just believe that was straight up his last thing he ever shot.

[Griffin Newman]

Wow.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Spielberg says he's an interesting man. You employ his great camera eye, but for gratis, you get his thoughts as well. He's opinionated and sometimes he'll conflict with your own ideas. But he's enough of a professional to do immediately any way you wish.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But Spielberg likes that, like, for how much this guy has, like a vision. He's not someone coming in, being like, it's all in my head and all of you need to do what I'm telling you to do.

[Griffin Newman]

They get along really well. It's almost weird that they didn't make more movies together, because it does. They do talk about each other, both so positively. And Sigmund's like, he's the most talented filmmaker I ever worked with.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And this movie looks incredible and has, like a kind of surprising look. Like there is a kind of muted quality to it.

[Griffin Newman]

It always feels like it's like sunset or like, you know, early morning. Like, you know, the way the light.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Daylight scenes are still, something's a little, like, shadowy and sort of sad about them.

[Griffin Newman]

It's using this new Panaflex camera.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I think this was the first feature film ever.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. And so it can do these big pans, I think, like 360 degree pans. They can, like, move around the car really easily. And. Yeah, I mean, another person he collaborates with for the first time is John Williams.

[David Sims]

I worked with someone else. On the square, right?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes. Toots was the main harmonica player. What's his name? Let me pull it up. Who isn't Toots?

[David Sims]

I just. I clock Toots.

[Griffin Newman]

Clock Tootsa.

[Esther Zuckerman]

You know, your job. Okay, well, ten comedy points, Ben.

[Griffin Newman]

Like that or is mad at me one or the other.

[David Sims]

I'm mad at you.

[Griffin Newman]

I looked up Toots Sugarland, and I got Toots Thielmans, a Belgian jazz musician who is known for playing the chromatic harmonica, also known for his whistling skill.

[David Sims]

I don't think. I don't think I. I don't know if you'll listen, but.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, he's. He does the harmonic on Sesame Street.

[David Sims]

Oh, wow. What a legend.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Holy. It's too.

[Griffin Newman]

I think.

[David Sims]

I do think Jordan Hoffman probably is deeply aware of who Toots is.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I'm not gonna get Jordan Hoffman started on that. I get 18 text messages about Toots before breakfast.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Jordan Hoffman has a whole shelf of Toot 75s.

[Griffin Newman]

Exactly. Toots died in 2016 at the age of 94. He tooted his last toot. So Spielberg had really liked. I think we mentioned this on last week's episode, the Mark Rydale film the Revivers, which had a John Williams score. And he was always like, I want the guy who did the score to.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Do my movie 75 instead of 78. It's gone. I know. Ben was just really shooting some dirty glances at me.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, it was also, but it's fine. William Goldenberg, who scored Duel, thinks he might have been able to sneak in there and beat John Williams to the punch if he'd read the script faster. This may just be William Goldberg sitting there full of regret, being like, why didn't I turn out to be fucking Steven Spielberg's go to composer or whatever. But he's like, it's all to do with my procrastination. I was the first person he gave the script, and I didn't reply, and he probably thought I didn't like it. I don't know, man.

[Esther Zuckerman]

The. I'm gonna be citing the John Williams Disney plus doc a lot in these early episodes because we're recording them close together, and I just watched it. But Spielberg says that he saw the Reavers, which is the.

[Griffin Newman]

That's what I said. Oh, you. I said revivers. It's the Reavers. There you go. The Mike Rydell movie, right?

[Esther Zuckerman]

And he said to himself, if I ever get to make a movie, I'm hiring this guy. Right? It was, like, locked in on his mind, and then his career got bigger. By the time he goes to him, obviously he'd won the Fiddler Oscar. He wasn't John Williams legend status, but he was like, this guy might turn me down, Right. But it seemed very locked in on the idea that this was the guy he wanted to work with. And I think had a notion. The thing he said was that at that point in time, the sort of big classical orchestral score was going out.

[Griffin Newman]

Of fashion and Spielberg wanted it. He wanted an Aaron Copeland 80 piece orchestra score.

[Esther Zuckerman]

That when he hears the Reaver score in some of those other 60s Williams scores that he's like, this is the last guy keeping up this old school tradition. And I want to support him. And this is what I want my movies to sound like.

[Griffin Newman]

And John Williams is like, no, no.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Like, that's not right.

[Griffin Newman]

We're not doing that for this. We're going to do a small string ensemble. And I'm getting toots.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, I'm not joking.

[Griffin Newman]

He's like, and harmonica.

[Esther Zuckerman]

This score is incredible.

[Griffin Newman]

It's great.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It basically was not really in circulation. It just got put out on CD in the year 2024 for the 50th anniversary. But outside of like times, he's performed the main theme as part of like concerts. It's never been like, that's when people.

[Griffin Newman]

Like go get a hot dog. Right? If you're at the fucking Boston Pops or whatever.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I think it's a quiet.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I think it's a lovely score. I'm just saying if you're there to see John Williams do all this, you don't. He's like, and now the Sugar Land Express. And you're like, I'm going to make an express stop at the bathroom.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's a Browntown Express. Yeah. I'm sorry, you set me up.

[Griffin Newman]

This music's making me need to poop.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Is playing the brown note. Toots knows the brown.

[David Sims]

I mean, I'm sorry. Going to the bathroom is a major plot point in this movie.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's true.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, if it's something you always think about with car movies where you're like, when's anyone peeing? Or.

[David Sims]

And they make it very explicit that it's like she's gonna need to go, but then she doesn't go.

[Esther Zuckerman]

This is one of the only movies with like basically a porta Potty heist. Yeah, we gotta go. I just think this score sounds like nothing else in the rest of John Williams entire entire career. Right. It's a total one of one. It is fascinating that this is what starts their relationship and that what starts their relationship is Spielberg being like, I want you to do the John Williams thing. And he immediately pushes back and is like, hear me out. Right? And Spielberg talks a lot about that. He would go to John Williams with ideas in the early years. And then John Williams would be like, what if I veer here? You think Joss is going to sound like this, I'm going to play two notes, right? You want sweeping orchestra. I'm going to bring in toots, whatever it is. And Spielberg is like, at this point, he has this line that's very touching in the doc where he's like, anytime I'm making a movie, the thing that keeps me going is like, oh, man. At some point at the other end.

[Griffin Newman]

Of this, John's gonna be like, showing me the first.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I get to hear John's first idea, and I have no idea what they're gonna be. And I've never been disappointed by them. And there's some amount of conversation, but I love seeing his first instinct without me giving him any guidance and me not giving him temp or anything like that. And then in that same documentary, they cut to Lucas and he goes, you know, a lot of people, you work with them. And they go, well, I have this idea. And you go, no, that's not what I want. And they push back and you get into a fight. And John's never fought me on anything. He's a real prince. And you're like, God, what an interesting comparison point for these two guys where Lucas is like. And first of all, I'm like, what other composers were you working with? You've worked with so few other composers in your life. But he's like these uppity guys who are giving you ideas, right? And Spielberg's like, I like the John Williams, like, zags. And that our relationship was formed on him zagging right off the bat.

[Griffin Newman]

I also just truly wonder how much, yeah, like, George Lucas is informing the music of Star wars, which is so clearly, like, John Williams is like, ongoing opus, right? That like, every time there's a sequel, he's like, I actually have something new. Like, you know, every time.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, there's a part where he's like, you know, some of the stuff John gave me, it wasn't right. And I had to explain to him how the mood was wrong. And they play the Luke to Sunset moments with his original track and Toots.

[Griffin Newman]

Is going crazy.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But they play it and you're like, this doesn't work. And then they play the final version and it's like a transcendent moment that, like, immediately solidifies that movie and, like, cultural history. And I'm like, I cannot imagine what the note George Lucas gave in between it. Like, obviously they got to the right place.

[Griffin Newman]

But knowing George Lucas, he just, like, mumbled something.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Was he just like, oh, no, it's wrong?

[Griffin Newman]

Louder.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

French horn.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Don't you dare disagree with me.

[Griffin Newman]

He's over there. You can't see him. What if George Lucas buys Star wars back and then just puts Sebulba in like one scene of the original Star wars and then sells it again?

[Esther Zuckerman]

That's the biggest mistake Kathy Kennedy's made.

[Griffin Newman]

Not like doing a Sebalba.

[David Sims]

Not going all in on Sebalba story.

[Griffin Newman]

I think it is a mistake how they did a bunch of Star wars shows, but they never like had the guts to do like a pod racing show where it's just like that's so built for a show.

[Esther Zuckerman]

The world of pod racing, just synergy. Walt Disney company, right? Their whole portfolio. Just start animating full pod races and airing them on espn. Don't make a show that's like a narrative. Just let me watch.

[Griffin Newman]

Invent. Pod racing is a real sport, right?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Script it, rig it, animate it, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Like, you know, you're going to have to rollerball it. It's going to have to be in some. Right, right. Some country where, you know, you can do that.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Like, you know, some regulations, maybe record new color commentary.

[Griffin Newman]

That's got to hurt. I don't care what country universe you're from.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Dad's losing it. Okay, back to the Sugar Land Express.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's begin the plot. Hello?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, you can't say hello. The door's not going to open on its own. David.

[Griffin Newman]

Hello? Creek. Wow. I opened it on my own by.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Saying, you know what? I stand corrected. Hello?

[Griffin Newman]

Who's this?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Sheriff Brody.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, okay. Sheriff Brody from Jaws.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Amityville. Yeah, right.

[Griffin Newman]

It's Amity. Amityville is where the horror was.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, no, there was a horror in Amity. There was a shark that was very scary. Don't diminish the terror.

[Griffin Newman]

Amity Island.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right. And so now I actually transferred to Amityville and I think it's gonna be a lot calmer.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, okay. Just don't go near that one random house. Everything else seems fine.

[Esther Zuckerman]

What, the spooky one that I'm patrolling.

[Griffin Newman]

Specifically that kind of looks like it has eyes.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah. Listen.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I've had to do some real climate related locations. I went from New York to sort of a Martha's Vineyardy type place to now Amityville. It's a new year. It's a new Brody. I'm trying to get away from trauma. I think I need to mix up my wardrobe.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, then that helps me understand which tab I should open. Thank you very much.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I don't even know what you're talking about. I'm just telling you my honest truth.

[Griffin Newman]

My Lived new year, new chance for new clothes. Okay, well, listen to me, Sheriff. I think everyone needs to try and refresh their liquid quality pieces but stay on budget.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, I like that. I'm on a. I'm on a sort of.

[Griffin Newman]

You got a public servant budget?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Absolutely, yeah. How about Quint's like my friend.

[Griffin Newman]

Not like Quint the guy.

[Esther Zuckerman]

No, no, no, no. I know. Let me clarify. There's a different guy I know who is very different than the shark hunter Quint and his name is Quince and he helps people find clothing.

[Griffin Newman]

I think think everyone needs Quince's Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $60.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Okay. Yeah, no, that sounds great.

[Griffin Newman]

I genuinely love Quince. I think I've talked about this on the show before, but I am Quince pilled.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

I be loading up Quince and buying some nice soft shirts and good fitting pants all the time.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I'm a blankie. I've heard you talk about it.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, got some activewear, performance tees, tech shorts. They've got, you know, soft shirts that are warm, which I've been really favoring in the winter. And you know, they're priced 50 to 80% less than the similar brands because they partner directly with the top factories. No middlemen.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Perfect.

[Griffin Newman]

And they only work with factories that use safe, ethical and responsible manufacturing practices.

[Esther Zuckerman]

No sharks.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't think there are any sharks involved as far as I can tell. Thank goodness they do have premium fabrics and finishes for luxury feel that doesn't include sharks.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I don't hear anything shark esque in what you just said.

[Griffin Newman]

Anyways, so yeah, if you want to upgrade your closet this year without the upgraded price tag, you should go to quint.com check for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U I n c e.com check to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com check.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And that completes the trilogy. And this was the one I was avoiding because it was hardest to find the take.

[Griffin Newman]

Kind of not really.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Impression.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, Impression to be.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I don't know. What do you. What do you mean by. I don't get this guy's vibe is strange.

[Griffin Newman]

Talking about himself in a weird way.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Bye.

[Griffin Newman]

Bye.

[Esther Zuckerman]

David.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

There's something that's always bummed me out in life. It's that previously there was only one AG One.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, explain.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Al Green only ever had one number one hit single. Let's Stay Together was the only one. That's disgusting. For a man with his catalog, the breath of his work sure. And I would go, oh, I'd love to wake up every morning and set things right with another dose of AG1. And in fact, it just meant I was listening to the one admittedly great song over and over again every day. And as much as that song put me in a good mood, I would not say it helped with my gut health.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. You know, he spent time looking that up.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I looked it up.

[Griffin Newman]

He did.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I knew the answer. I just had to double check. I didn't want to get it wrong. I looked it up before I had to double check. I didn't want to get it wrong.

[Griffin Newman]

Good job.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Our sponsor today has solved multiple problems at once. AG1.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay. Well, you are the biggest fan of AG1, Griffin. I mean, we've talked about it. Oh, he's putting on his AG1 baseball cap.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I wear this around town, and I proudly billboard to everyone the fact that my stomach works better now with a daily dose of AG1.

[Griffin Newman]

It's just one of those things where the ad copy is like, oh, do you want to, you know, personal experience, talk about how it's impacted your digestion or gut health? It's like Griffin basically just, like, would explode if he didn't eat his Ag one every day.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I swear by this. Drink it. Although there are many different ways you can ingest it. I just take 8 ounces of water, put some. Put it in my AG1 branded shaker, pour the powder in, and, oh, boy, it hits just right. And you're right. Here's Look. They're looking for personal endorsement of endorsement experience with the product. I'll do a reverse endorsement. Here's my experience of not taking AG1 hell. Absolute living hell. But today, I'm in fine form. You know why? I got an AG1 hat atop my head. Technically, atop a ski cap. I'm wearing two hats at once. Yeah, It's a hat on a hat. And I got a belly full of AG1.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Well, I'm really glad you're enjoying AG1.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's an understatement.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm glad to hear it. But your recipe.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And I'm glad to tell people that on this holiday season, you can try AG1 for yourself or even gift it to someone special. It's the perfect time to focus on supporting your body with an easy and surprisingly delicious daily health drink. And that's why I'm so excited to be partnering with them. Griffin.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

AG1 is offering new subscribers a free $76 gift. When you sign up, you'll get a welcome kit, a bottle of D3K2 and five the pills. Five free travel packs in your first box.

[Esther Zuckerman]

This kit, this kit just hits. Right. I gotta tell you, it's a fun box to receive.

[Griffin Newman]

It's big.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's big.

[Griffin Newman]

So make sure to check out drinkag1.com check to get this offer. That's drinkag1.com check to start your new year on a healthier note.

[David Sims]

Look.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And if you're looking for kind of a fun way to make this morning routine kind of hit different, maybe. Maybe put on some Al Green while you're doing it.

[Griffin Newman]

String Land Express is, is. It's not a short film, but I do feel like it's a. It's a pretty. It's one hour simple, you know, economical kind of straightforward, moving movie about a couple Luan played by Golden Han and Clovis, played by William Atherton. Kind of crazy names. And Clovis is in jail and they have a son and he's. The son has been given to foster parents. And even though Clovis is about to be released from prison just a few.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Months, four months, he's on pre release.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

They're in the sort of like lower security.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. The sort of halfway back she gets him out, breaks him out of jail and they are going to go retrieve their kid, I guess, which is stupid.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But this whole movie hinges on the plan being inexplicable.

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

They never really have a plan. They don't have a beyond. We're just going to go get him. And it's like, okay. And then what? It's like nobody seems to have an answer.

[David Sims]

By the end she's like, oh, like we're going to go to Mexico. We're going to do.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

Like at the very end she's like, we're going to do this. Right. We're going to do parenting.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right.

[David Sims]

And it's like, wasn't this your whole lot? Doesn't this your whole idea?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Now the major difference from the real story is that in the real story he was not breaking out. He.

[Griffin Newman]

No, they had already been released.

[Esther Zuckerman]

He had been released, she had been released. And then they proceed to hold this cop car hostage.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And have them escort him across.

[Griffin Newman]

They did want to try and get their son and had the same basic ending of he died. I think he was shot and killed instantly. And yeah, she went to jail.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah. It is very fascinating to think about this and Badlands coming out in successive years. Badlands is 1973.

[Griffin Newman]

Is that. Yes, it is. Yes.

[Esther Zuckerman]

They feel amazing movie, an incredible film. A similarly striking debut film from a better film.

[Griffin Newman]

I'll say it. I love Badland.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I do as well. But they do feel like twinned movies in a weird way. Badlands is obviously like a period piece, but they both have this sort of like, what is up with the youth vibe, this sense of rebellion, where Badlands also hinges on like, why are they killing people?

[Griffin Newman]

Right?

[Esther Zuckerman]

And it's like, it's never really clear. They never like become malicious. You know, there is one death that sort of makes sense in terms of them trying to secure their freedom. And then you're like, why are they making this situation worse for themselves? But it is this sort of just like young in love feeling some sort of like conflict with the culture around you and the old institutions and being like, we want to just do shit our way.

[Griffin Newman]

Badlands actually is 74. It was actually released pretty much at the exact same time. It's a 73 movie on like, because it was at the New York Film Festival, but it was actually pretty much released like the same week as this movie. So you could basically see them around the same time.

[David Sims]

But I will say one thing about, you know, the parenthood aspect of Sugarland Express is really interesting and also like, interesting in the context of like the whole Spielberg deal. Yes, with parents in the sense that like, obviously they are not primed to be good parents, but the sense of like flawed people wanting to, wanting to care for this child feels, you know, feels like, sort of justifies their wrong headedness in a way. Like they have this love for this kid, which obviously we never see in practice. But there's a sense that like, yeah, she'd do anything for her kid, even though we like, she obviously messed up in the past.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I mean, the, my read on why they make the change that he is being, that he is escaping, right? That he is on the run before he's finished serving his time. Not just, obviously it adds some greater movie stakes, but also it's like from that decision you're immediately like, well, I understand why they lost custody of the child.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

You know what I'm saying? Like, beyond just the fact that obviously both of them went to jail, there is just the feeling of like watching this thought process or lack of thought play out of like, right, one bathroom conversation turning into like, you're gonna put on sunglasses, we're going to get someone to drive us, we're going to go pick up our kid. You're like, this is not going to work. This is so poorly thought through. You can't even really explain this. Why this sudden immediacy? And like, yes, if you wait four months and then you calmly go to the foster home or you go to whatever government office and you plead your case, you're going to have a better chance of getting that kid back. Then like holding someone hostage, getting them to drive you to the door and then like negotiating with Ben Johnson and being like, and we want our kid back.

[David Sims]

But it also adds to this, you know, even though there are no stakes to. I mean, there are. Sorry, no stakes is the wrong word. Even though, like there's no reason that they have to be acting so quickly and like her and erratically. Her desperation to get her child also, I think like endears you to her a little bit because it's like, you know, this sense of, well, I fucked up, but all I want to do is be with my kid, even though she's going about it in like the worst possible way.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, and Badlands has the same thing where in both cases the couples feel like they're kind of just overgrown children.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Like they just don't know how to be grown ups.

[Griffin Newman]

In Badlands, Sheen is just sort of this agent of chaos, Right. Like he's just like doing and sissy SpaceX kind of along for the ride.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But he's an agent of chaos in like, in a very disinfective boy lighting shit on fire. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

And then in this, Hawn is the driver of everything and Avatan is kind of like. Yeah, I don't know, you know, like I'm, I'm. He's. He's the one along for the well.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And she's the one thing she is fully in power of is knowing how to use her charms to get people to do what she wants. But it's not in some obvious like seductress, feminine wiles way. It's more just like, well, she's Goldie Hawn. She has movie star energy.

[David Sims]

She's cute.

[Esther Zuckerman]

She's cute, she's compelling. People just are kind of taken by whatever she's saying. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

So they initially just hitch a ride. They just hitchhike. But then they get stopped.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Parents.

[Griffin Newman]

But then they get stopped by Maxwell side, the patrolman played by Michael Sachs of J.P. morgan fame.

[Esther Zuckerman]

A man who I'm sure has done great things behind the scenes.

[Griffin Newman]

And so they hold him hostage, but it is. And have him drive them. But it is the most chill hostage situation.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It's nice. They're. They sort of become friends.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. This is not a thing where they're basically just like training a gun to him on all times. At a certain point, they're basically just all hanging out together.

[Esther Zuckerman]

He doesn't. I don't think he really views them as dangerous, but he also is just immediately kind of like, what are you doing?

[David Sims]

Well, there's also the really good sort of establishing, like, moment with him with the sort of junk guy in his car before he pulls them over, where you're sort of like, this guy is sort of like, whatever with the people in his car. Like, he's sort of. He's sort of tolerant of them and their weirdness in a nice way, which I think sort of sets up the fact that he's gonna be like, yeah, okay, guys, like, let's just deal with this and move along.

[Esther Zuckerman]

So Sims and I were kind of teeing this up at the end of our dual episode that this movie, much like the score is in John Williams filmography, a total, like, one of one outlier. There's no other Spielberg movie like this. And we were like, what tone is even close to this in one of his movies? And I do think, like, tonally, Catch Me if youf can has a similar vibe, melancholy too.

[Griffin Newman]

Like the same kind of, like, light.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Drama vibe and almost a similar kind of look like color palette and shit.

[Griffin Newman]

But Catch Me, Ken is more self conscious, obviously, because it's doing a period.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Thing and it's him kind of doing a bit of an epic. Like a weird kind of epic on its own.

[Griffin Newman]

Odd way, it's the same kind of vibe of like, you're like, I'm having fun, but I have a feeling this won't end well. Now, Catch Me if youf can sort of has a happy, ish ending. Yes, but it's not like, you know, he gets away with it ending. It's kind of a.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But the thing he truly never comes close to doing again in his filmography is this being a hangout movie. Like, as we said once, like, 30 minutes in, they're in, like, Sax's car.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a slow chase movie. It's not like a real propulsive chase movie. It's everyone's kind of ambling along.

[David Sims]

Ambling.

[Griffin Newman]

This is entertainment.

[Esther Zuckerman]

This is what I'm kind of locking into. Right Amblin. And this do not feel insincere to me.

[Griffin Newman]

Rickman is, of course, referring to the short film that he made in the 60s. This bill for made in the 60s about a couple of hippies Hitchhiken A.

[Esther Zuckerman]

M B L I N apostrophe, which then he later removes the apostrophe and Makes it a production company as if, like, oh, yeah, I guess it's a real world that means something. It's like, no, it's just ambling without the G. Right. I don't think either one's insincere, but these are the kind of, like, personal films that directors of his generation were making at this point in time, speaking to their. The youth. Right. And the vibe and these sort of like character pieces and actor driven pieces and hangout pieces and all this sort of kind of innately not who Spielberg.

[Griffin Newman]

Is, not what he becomes for sure.

[David Sims]

And he seems so, you know what we know about his youth, like, so disconnected from all of that in any way shape.

[Griffin Newman]

But he did.

[Esther Zuckerman]

He was like a very serious, moody kid who was like, very focused on his work.

[Griffin Newman]

But he lived out in the desert in Arizona. I feel like he does have some sense of that.

[Esther Zuckerman]

He moved a lot too, and he lived in wildly different states. So he has this kind of sense of America.

[Griffin Newman]

And like, I do say, the shadow of Seth Rogen cucking his dad looms over this sugar.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Absolutely right. You hear the laugh.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I mean, echoing. Close Encounters is the movie, his third film, where you're like, oh, okay, this has been torn out of his soul for us. Right. Like, that is. This is everything that's going on in this boy's brain. This and Jaws is a little more. Both of them. They're both good movies. Hot. Take Sugar Land and Jaws, but they're both. And Duel, but they are both like, this is a supreme stylist who has grown up on a fire hose of television and movies who just has such a sense of how to deliver entertainment.

[Esther Zuckerman]

So Duel is just like Ty as a drum filmmaking exercise. Right. And then this is like, character loose hangout, like, charm.

[Griffin Newman]

The map still, like, quietly flashing.

[David Sims]

I don't know. But I do think it gets at something that, like, has preoccupied him for, like, his whole career, which is like the sense of how flawed people sort of sacrifice for their children.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes. I mean, let's get back to that because there's a lot more to unpack in that. Right. But I think, like, Jaws is fascinating because it's basically combining everything he figured out on Duel and Sugar Land into one movie.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Which then becomes the alchemy of, oh, can he make, like, thrill ride entertainment that also has this level of characterization, specificity, performance, charm, wit, empathy, what have you. Right. But Jaws does feel, in a way, more personal than this movie does in a certain way. It feels more reflective of his psyche, whereas this movie feels like what you said. A story he remembers hearing on the news and being kind of compelled by. Which is also how Malik talks about the Badlands.

[Griffin Newman]

The Badlands.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Badlands. Coming about was him being like, that's so weird that these two kids just killed a bunch of people. What were they thinking, right? That he's sort of trying to, like, psychoanalyze them.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's also a movie that's kind of about, like, I don't know, right?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Like is the answer.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But in the soup of his generation, the movie Brats, there's the story that gets repeated a lot where, you know, Cassavetes was a big mentor to Scorsese, And Scorsese invites him to a screening of Boxcar Bertha, and he's like, what did you think? And Cassidy is like, what the fuck are you doing? And Cassavetes is basically like, you're wasting your life. And he's like, you thought it's that bad? He's like, it's not bad. It's just whatever. Like, this isn't what you. You became a filmmaker to make. This is you trying to, like, make strategic career moves, pay your dues, whatever it is. Like, make the movie you'd be willing to die for. And that conversation motivates him to make Mean Streets, to basically sit down and be like, what's the movie only I can make?

[Griffin Newman]

And Cassidy saw that, and he was like, f. I hate this.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Total F. Right? But there was this feeling. A lot of these guys, it's like, you're paying your dues in the corpsman fields, right? De Palma is, like, basically coming out of experimental theater. Greetings, High mom rule. But are, like, fairly inaccessible movies. And then he figures out, like, thrillers, right? Lucas is making a thx, and people are like, make something about people, right?

[David Sims]

And he's like, I'll try, right? But, like, I know American Graffiti.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But he's like, my point, like, American Graffiti is the movie that comes out of, like, Coppola shaking Lucas the way that Cassavetes shake Scorsese, right? Shook Scorsese. Like, make the thing that only you can make. Like, what's your story? And Spielberg, like, doesn't know how to tell his story directly. He starts making these entertainments that are unbelievably personal and emotional because he knows how to tell it through refraction. But this feels like a distant movie that has all of his themes in it made very warmly.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I mean, the refraction thing. Like, I'm sure it's, like, impossible not to talk about, like, the Fabelmans now like talking about him. But like. Yeah. The only way he can look at his life is through. Is to watch. The only way you can watch his parents divorce is. Is to take out a camera. And I do think that. Yeah. That he. He finds even though this film has the sort of. Yes. Impetus of like, oh, I heard this on the radio and I think it's interesting. I think he finds this really sort of perfect which. This really personal story which is ultimately what makes it so tragic, you know, by the end is that you do start to feel for. Feel for how much they care despite. And especially how much Lujean cares just despite her wrong headedness.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, he also like not. Not to psychoanalyze him too much. Right. But like this feeling of kind of what you were saying of like his relationship to his parents for so long. And we talked about. I think in. At this point in his life he was sort of like, I could not imagine being a parent. Right. And that's reflected in shit like Close Encounters where he watches that today and he's just like, I would never do that today as a filmmaker because if you have a child you could never imagine doing that in a certain way. Right. And I think a lot of that is like the kind of thing a lot of people go through in their 20s where they start to take the toll of the way in which their parents fucked them up. And there's like an anger that then goes to like. The worst part of this is they actually were trying their best. I can't really villainize them.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Which is sort of the stance this movie has of like it is so commendable. They are willing to put everything on the line for the sake of their child. And yet everything they're doing is wrong and is actually just gonna up their ability to have a relationship with their child.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, it really up African's ability.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I think majorly.

[Griffin Newman]

He gets shot with a gun.

[Esther Zuckerman]

He's in a pretty bad position as a father by the end of this movie.

[David Sims]

It also just. There is this sort of trick too of, you know, that first shot of the child, you know, in the foreground and he's with the dog and he's just like crying. And also Xanax son is the kid. But like is like, you know, there's this misery to the kid and obviously he's. The kid is probably fine with these stuffy Duffy parents. But you know, you there. The fun and the life that this couple, Lou Jean and Clovis has is so inherently attractive.

[Esther Zuckerman]

The first moment you see the Kid, I believe, is like, minute 47. Right. And you basically have these two mirrored shots. It comes right after the port, a potty standoff. And then you have this shot of basically from inside the porta Potty, of Goldie opening the door. Right?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And then it cuts to. Right. Goldie opens the door from inside the porta potty. She closes the door, and then it cuts in the blackness to the kid opening the door and outside.

[Griffin Newman]

Verna Fields worked on this movie, obviously.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Like a legend in the outside, the press coming to interview the kid and the foster parents about this growing story. Right. The shot of the kid in silhouette from behind the door opening is so similar.

[David Sims]

Yes, yes. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

The MO. Probably like the most famous shot of his. Yeah. Right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Except this is the first time we're seeing the kid, and it's a moment of just like, this kid doesn't know what's about to hit him. Like, this kid is oblivious, but also.

[David Sims]

The kid is oblivious the whole time. Like, that is also the sort of the. The tragedy of it, too. This kid has no idea what's going on. Like, he's so little like that. There's just this sort of aura of trauma around him. But, like, we don't. But he probably has no actual conception of what's going on in his life.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But, like, Spielberg is so close to making this pivot, to realizing a lot of his magic is the ability to tell stories from the vantage point of a child. Right. And children who are cognizant at the center of this kind of chaos, and they're processing it, they're digesting it, it's changing them. Even Close Encounters where the kid isn't the main part.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Or does. Where the kid is part of the cast, but the kid is very specific.

[David Sims]

And in some ways, I think the fact that this kid is just not really cognizant and, like, sort of overwhelmed, and you see him crying and, you know, is just being sort of shuffled from place to place. Also, like, sort of fits with the theme of the movie, too, and that, like, no one has any fucking idea what. What's going on here, you know, so. And then, you know, and then you get back to the thing which you guys said, which is basically like, Lujean and Clovis are children. And there's like, the incredible, you know, so Spielbergy moment when they get in the. The. The van, one of those cars called, like, the. And they're watching the Looney Tunes through the. Through the window, and you see it reflect in their faces. And Clovis is doing the sounds and you're just like, oh, yeah. You know, these are children themselves and they, they are Looney Tunes characters in a way.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I apologize, I correct myself. You have the earlier glimpse of the song on the front.

[David Sims]

That's what, that's what I was talking about. Which is the, like that first, you know, there's the shot.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, right, cool. But that's, that's foreground. The kid just kind of playing innocently as the cop is pulling up in the back.

[David Sims]

And then the cop is pulling up and the kid starts like sobbing.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes. So minute 27 is the entrance of Ben Johnson. Right. And in this movie that's already taken this pivot of like, oh, how quickly they get comfortable basically being in a throuple with this cop. A non sexual throuple. Right. Like now they're just like three folks hanging out on a road trip. You know, there's that immediate sense of like, are they like bulletproof? Because they have this guy on their side. They have this kind of like magic armor. And now they're just gonna drive to their destination and they think they will be able to make this work. And everyone else thinks, like, this is gonna end up badly somehow. Ben Johnson's introduced Eminent 27 and he gets a kind of very classical movie star introduction.

[Griffin Newman]

And he looks great.

[Esther Zuckerman]

He looks incredible. And there's this air of like, here's a legend in your movie. Like, here's like a heavy hitter coming in and the moment you'd expect in most movies. Like, okay, now the plot's really going to kick in because now this guy is on the hunt. He's going to be like a fucking sniper rifle trying to take them down.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, we're going to be bouncing between these and this is right, going to be the dominant supporting performance of the movie. And he's going to get an Oscar nomination and Tommy Lee Jones or whatever, you know, in the Fugitive.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Totally. And yet he also has this much sort of like more melancholy, wistful energy.

[Griffin Newman]

Hugely understated performance.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Totally good, incredible performance, I think.

[Griffin Newman]

But not like a big dominant character at all. Basically kind of just does it all through nothing. You kind of get everything you need to know about this guy through very little dialog.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Like, well, also the feeling that he. It's not outspoken, but that he's like, this is a tragic story.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. That he knows right away exactly that nothing good is coming of.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's already a bad situation. And like, I mean, they either have.

[David Sims]

To shoot them or figure out a way to stop them.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right. Like Last Picture show is one of the shorter runtime two Oscar win performances ever. He's very little of.

[Griffin Newman]

He just has the amazing monologue.

[Esther Zuckerman]

He has one amazing monologue in the.

[Griffin Newman]

First 30 minutes as does Cloris Leachman basically. And each of them win an Oscar for it. Really amazing in the movie. And she's all over it. But I think they both are winning for these big speeches they have that they crush. Right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But hers comes at the very end. And Ben Johnson, without spoiling. Last Picture show, if people haven't seen it, is basically out of the movie at the 30 minute mark.

[Griffin Newman]

He is good though.

[Esther Zuckerman]

He's fantastic.

[Griffin Newman]

The lion. Right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

You compare like that movie like Sam the lion foregrounding him so much at the beginning, giving him one big emotional speech and then he's gone. Right. Versus this where he's just kind of steady and stable throughout.

[David Sims]

Yeah. I mean he's just, he's almost not. He. He's just this steady hand and you sort of. Yeah. You come in expecting him to be a villain, quote unquote, maybe. And instead he sort of is resigned as everyone else to. Ah, these kids are like, I don't, you know, I have to handle this in the best way possible. But I feel for these kids.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, there are two takes, there's one in which he's the villain and you want to see our heroes outwit him, right?

[David Sims]

Yeah. And then you know, they're never gonna out with them him because they're silly.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right. But the way this movie is characterized with them being silly. There's also a version of this. At the 30 minute mark he enters and you're like finally a grown up someone who's gonna take responsibility, he's gonna sort this out and we're rooting for him to find some amicable. He'll solution.

[Griffin Newman]

Everyone else is running off half cocked but he wants to cool it down and maybe get them out of this alive, you know. That is your hope. Sort of. Yeah. But then it doesn't happen.

[Esther Zuckerman]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

Gets shot.

[Esther Zuckerman]

He's just kind of patiently. Yeah. I mean I love the scene where he takes down the. The two local dudes who have sort of been like self deputizing and unloads their guns and it's just like this isn't like a game, you know.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, right, right. And I think that's Spielberg's take. Right. Is that it's like you have this tragic little story and wrapped around it is this little circus, this media circus that like helps nobody. And the movie isn't like Dog Day Dog Day Afternoon is loud and very forceful and political. Political and so, like compelling to watch. And Sugarland Express never gets to that kind of fervent polemical point. It's more just quietly saying, like, you know, isn't it a little sad how, you know, the story becomes people almost waiting to watch these guys get shot versus trying to figure out, you know, how to help them?

[David Sims]

No, I mean, well, but also, you know, the Dog Day Afternoon thing, you're saying it's like, yes, there's this sort of don't you want, like, yes, everyone's sort of itching to watch them get shot. And it's interesting here. There's a kindness to the way people are perceiving them. Like, yes, there are the, you know, self deputy guys who are like, you know, let's, let's shoot them very, you know, which feel, I don't know, feels very modern in a way, in a gross way. But then there's also this like, you know, but then there's also when they arrive at the town and they're just like, they're welcomed with open dolls, they're folk heroes and they become. Which it's like, you know. Yeah. I mean, there's this weird kindness to the whole movie about them too.

[Griffin Newman]

They kind of know they're screwed.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, and also the spirit of it is like Spielberg reading this story in the newspaper, Right. And you have to imagine he's probably reading this as a resolved story. Hey, weird thing happened.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure, right. He's dead, she's in jail. Maybe he later learns that she got out and did manage to get custody. I don't know.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's basically been packaged into bite size entertainment as a story with a beginning and middle and an end of an odd thing that happened. And that becomes the kind of thing that you can sort of gawk over.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And he's making a movie that's focusing on all of the things that the newspaper would not cover, which is what is. What are the fucking conversations they had. So wait, these three people were in a car together for how many hours? How many days? How did they eat? So they had to go to drive throughs only. So what, they're just hanging out and eating chicken? Like the movie is all the hangout that is. Well, you could just hit the big bullet points of they hold this guy at gunpoint, they get the car, there's a final standoff, whatever it is, you know, some big emotional reckoning with the foster parents or whatever. And he's like, no, the movie's about like all this stuff in between that happens.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And that weird reality where it's like they're basically holding existence hostage. They're in this like transitory state that is not sustainable.

[David Sims]

Yeah. I mean, there it is, their moment of liberation. You know, they. He was in jail, she was in. We know she was in jail beforehand. You know, this is the one moment where they have this idea that they can do anything. And they're doing it with this ostensibly, like, good natured thing, you know, in their. In, in the back of their minds, which is like, let's get our kid. But it's also. It is a joyride. It is, it is fun.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I mean, I'm basing this predominantly off of movies and TV shows. Right. But all the scenes we see where someone's holding a bunch of people hostage inside at gunpoint, and they're demanding a helicopter and a million dollars and a private island and whatever the it is. I'm just like, how many stories historically are there of, as Ben would say, it. It all working out? You know, like, I just figured out the situation and they never caught up to me. I negotiated so successfully that I released all the hostages. I got everything I wanted. I had political immunity. And they never caught up with island.

[Griffin Newman]

It's beautiful, right?

[Esther Zuckerman]

And I'm like, I've seen 8 trillion fictionalized, completely false versions of it and versions of it based on true stories that are fictionalized and whatever. But all of them end with eventually. They just. You can't outrun it. Right. These weird, like, standoff situations where you're in conversation with authorities and they're just trying to get you to let go, let go of the vehicle, of the weapon, of the hostage, of whatever it is, and they'll promise you everything. And you think you can game this out to your own advantage and it just like, fucking never works out. Like, maybe our listeners will write in and be like, here. Here are the 20 most famous examples of someone just nailing it. But I feel like those stories existed. We would know them. So from the moment you get into this situation where you're like, the longer this goes on, you're just kind of prolonging the inevitability. How does this end? Do I fight it violently? Do I just like hand myself over and go back to prison? Like, there's no version which they go like, you know what? If you let go of the car, we'll let you move into this house and raise this child, no questions.

[Griffin Newman]

Because they don't kill anyone. There is a version of them being like, look, we're sorry. We shouldn't have done this. And the answer is like, well, you're going back to prison, probably with a little extra. You kidnapped a cop, but you're not going to die. And you're, you know, who knows what.

[David Sims]

Will one day you'll see.

[Griffin Newman]

Maybe one day you'll see.

[Esther Zuckerman]

You know, the logical fallacy of people in this situation is they're like, fudge, I just can't go back to prison again. Is there any other option? But also, third option.

[Griffin Newman]

These are people in desperate circumstances. A movie about people where it's just kind of like, they just know, like, now, man, like, it kind of has to be all or nothing. That's the vibe of this couple of, like, look, either we're going to somehow pull this off in some fantasy cartoon way, we'll make it across the border and live this paradise life, or what's going to happen is what we kind of don't want to think about but is always sort of going to be our end, which is like, yeah, either we're in the slammer or we're dead or whatever. And, like, at least we gave it a shot.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But it also speaks like, they're just.

[Griffin Newman]

Not going to be like, you know, I'm going to put my nose to the grindstone and I'm going to convince these people.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But the larger cultural themes that the movies are really tackling at this point, as the movies are trying to speak to a younger generation without options.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Feel without options and are just like, all of this feels wrong. I want to fight against this without any sense of what I'm looking for instead. Other than that, I need to push past everything that's being told to me as a given.

[Griffin Newman]

Ben, I feel like you wanted to say something. Often when people commit crimes. Yes. They're. I was kind of trying to cue Ben up. I'm really thinking it. Exactly right. And so people, for whatever reason, just go through with it and don't think beyond just the goal of, I'm gonna rob this liquor store and I need to have money. Right. And then I'll figure it out. And then. Yeah, that's today's problem, is I need money.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Parenting. I'm a parent.

[Esther Zuckerman]

You are times three now.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, there's sort of. There's the sort of gentle parenting world or whatever. And sometimes people say, like, you shouldn't say be careful to your kid all the time when your kid is fetching knives from the stove or, you know, whatever your, you know, insane thing your kid wants to do? Climb the Empire State Building.

[Esther Zuckerman]

You shouldn't say. You shouldn't say, be careful, Nemo. But you can't.

[David Sims]

Wait, what do you say instead of be careful?

[Griffin Newman]

I'm gonna get to that. But like, the idea being you say, be careful. You're kind of instilling fear in them. Like, this is what awful parenting blogs do. They're just like, watch your language in every single way. And if you don't behave this way, you're terrible. But nonetheless, instead, you're supposed to say, what's your plan?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right?

[Griffin Newman]

You're supposed to say, as your kid, I guess, is climbing up the couch, you're supposed to be like, what's your plan? Right? Like, you're like, so that's sort of the thing where the kid is like, well, I want to get to the top of the couch. And you're like, you're the one who has to instill in them. Like, well, what's going to happen when you get to the top of the couch?

[David Sims]

Are you doing this now?

[Griffin Newman]

I've done it. But I say be careful all the time because I'm a bit of a nervous Nelly.

[David Sims]

Yeah, no shit. But like, I don't know. But I'm not a parent. But I think that's.

[Griffin Newman]

Someone should say to these guys, what's your. What's your plan? But if you ask them, they would be like, our plan is to make it to Mexico and we'll figure it out. A couch good. I mean, hell yeah. Raising Arizona couch good.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Who are you? J.D. vance?

[Griffin Newman]

Like, raising Arizona. Wait, no. Raising Arizona. I'm just barreling past. No, no Raising Arizona.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Griffin, he likes the inside of the couch more. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Raising her movie comes out in.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I'm sorry Enough.

[Griffin Newman]

Movie comes out in the late 80s.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Kind of has a plot like this.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes, it does.

[Griffin Newman]

Obviously a much more third movie. Right. But it's the state, and they're not kidnapping their baby. They're just kidnapping a baby that they kind of feel like is a sort of a free baby that they can have.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And that is a movie that walks you through them being like, society basically is set up in a way where we're. This is our only way to solve it.

[Griffin Newman]

We deserve a baby. We're good people. We're sweethearts. We. We. We're just gonna go get a baby and we're gonna figure it out. What I love about era Raising Arizona is they kind of are, you know, doing it for a while, and then of, yes, it comes apart and they return the baby, and it actually works. Out for them.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And the ending of Raising Arizona is so moving.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

But that, to me, is the sort of fun version of the Sugar Land Express.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I agree. But here's like the.

[Griffin Newman]

The even more Looney Tunes that.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah. The lack of a plan in this movie is what makes it most fascinating to me. Right. And yet I bought a bag of Beetlejuice gummies, discounted Halloween candy.

[Griffin Newman]

And they are so addicted to them.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Unbelievable.

[Griffin Newman]

Weirdly good.

[Esther Zuckerman]

So I went back to Target to be like, they must still have some more. Probably even more discounted. And they're not there. And now I'm like, fudge. Do I go online and figure out where to buy more of them in bulk? Because these are. These are somehow the best sour gummies I've ever had.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know why.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And on top of that, they look like spiders and skulls and eyeballs and they come in bags with sandworms on them.

[David Sims]

There's only one gummy in each bag.

[Griffin Newman]

Huge waste of plastic.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I mean, I think they're meant to be fucking trick or treat.

[David Sims]

Even if I was trick or treating, I'd be fucking pissed.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I agree. But. But I like that they're big. I like that they're hearty gummies. David.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I just heard something mind blowing.

[Griffin Newman]

What?

[Esther Zuckerman]

My mind is blown.

[Griffin Newman]

What's going on?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Netflix. Have you heard of them?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, of course.

[Esther Zuckerman]

They have more than 18,000 titles globally. Oh, this. Oh, it's impressive. Oh, my God. Wait, but what? Only 6,000 of those are available in.

[Griffin Newman]

The U.S. ah, you're more than all those shows, Griffin.

[Esther Zuckerman]

This is the problem. The overseas show, they're all kind of hidden.

[Griffin Newman]

Unless. Unless you use ExpressVPN.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Netflix, for example, highs content from you based on your location. All the streamers do. ExpressVPN lets you change your online location so you can control where you want Netflix to think you're located.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Look, I understand. It's a frustration sometimes for people who listen to this show. We go through careers in order. We have a very set schedule. There's a movie, you see, it's on the streaming service. You have.

[Griffin Newman]

You go, great.

[Esther Zuckerman]

That episode's coming up in six weeks. I'll watch it then. And you come back six weeks later, it's been pulled down.

[Griffin Newman]

Where to go?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Where to go hungry. Where can I find it? Well, sometimes that's the answer. Sometimes they're hiding the movie in Hungary.

[Griffin Newman]

Netflix has servers in over 100 countries, so you can gain access to thousands of new shows. Never run out of stuff to watch. If you use a VPN like ExpressVPN. This works with Disney, BBC, iPlayer, and more. You fire up the app, okay. You click one button to change locations.

[Esther Zuckerman]

You just pick. You pick where you want to be.

[Griffin Newman]

It works on all your devices, phones, laptops, tablets, smart TVs and more. Anyway, can stream in blazing fast HD speed with zero buffer.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's not throttling anything.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's rated number one by top tech reviewers like CET and the Verge. ExpressVPN also keeps you private and secure by rerouting all your traffic to an encrypted tunnel. Like, we tend to focus on the. Just like Coraline's tunnel. No, we tend to focus on the streaming benefits because that's what you know.

[Griffin Newman]

It's security.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's security as well. And sometimes, look, maybe you're traveling overseas, you want to watch your favorite show, but that streaming service isn't available in the country. And then you can pretend you're back home.

[Griffin Newman]

Have you watched anything, Griffin? Do you have any examples? One to two, maybe.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah. Look, I don't. I don't want to. I don't want to spoil, but our next miniseries has a director whose stuff.

[Griffin Newman]

Is really hard to find.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Several films are just weirdly gone. Not on any streaming service. Not rentable legally through digital platform.

[Griffin Newman]

Interesting.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And then suddenly I'm going like, oh, wow, wow, Disney plus and Belarus is looking pretty nice about now.

[Griffin Newman]

That is fascinating.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, so it will be expressly useful for.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Expressly, expressly useful. Listen, here's what I think. I think everyone should be smart, stop paying full price for streaming services and only getting access to a fraction of their content. What you should do is get your money's worth at ExpressVPN. Don't forget to use our link. That's ExpressVPN.com check to get an extra four months of ExpressVPN for free.

[Griffin Newman]

And then all you have to do is you open it, you select your country, you tap one button to connect, you refresh Netflix or whatever, and then. That's how it works.

[Esther Zuckerman]

That's how it works.

[David Sims]

It's great.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Listen, what I was going to say, there's this weird kind of ju. Position, I would say, of like, you know, William Athenan goes to the bathroom. She's waiting in the stall. This is the beginning of the movie, right?

[David Sims]

She leads him into the bathroom, right? She leads them into the men's room. And he's like, you got to get out of here, right?

[Esther Zuckerman]

And he's like, what are you doing here? And she's like, I Can't wait. And he's like, right here, right now. And she's, he's like, I'll be out in four months. And she's like, I can't wait that long. Right. So you're like, oh, basically like unplanned conjugal visit, right? Spur of the moment, heat of passion, they're making out. He pulls down her pants. Great Spielberg shot of her with second pair of jeans underneath. He goes, there's another pair of pants underneath. And she goes, yeah, we're leaving. And you're like, oh, she did have a level of plan of wearing two outfits at once so that she could go into the bathroom and like quick change and pass clothes off to him and they could walk out of there. So there's a level of intentionality of she left home that morning with that much figured out.

[David Sims]

Well, but that's, I think that is very purposeful. It's like she only has that figure correct. She has, she has a plan. She does have a plan.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But the plan.

[David Sims]

But the plan. And there. And it's like we're going to walk out and we're going to get in somebody's car and then we're just going to drive it.

[Esther Zuckerman]

The least plan I've ever seen. And yet it's not just that in the spur of the moment, she's like, fudge it, let's make a run for it.

[Griffin Newman]

She's planned, she planned enough to wear.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Two pairs of jeans. And that's the end of it.

[Griffin Newman]

It's the cake in the cartoons. Yes. With the nail side.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right. And you're like, even if the cake makes it through. Right. And the guy's able to slowly but meticulously grind through the bars, then what? Then what? That's just the start of it.

[Griffin Newman]

Has anyone ever actually done that? You know, like, has anyone ever actually. Yeah, my uncle, my Uncle Ken, he nail filed his way out of a prison.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Is that true? No, I don't know. I believe it. Okay.

[David Sims]

I just think of the cake in the. The cake escape in. In. Yeah, yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, that's. It's a great question. Is that a thing that became shorthand in cartoons and such? Because there was some example happen one time that actually you're like, no, the origin of that is Bugs Bunny.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? Bugs Bunny came up with that.

[Esther Zuckerman]

No criminal ever.

[Griffin Newman]

I attempted still watch learning students with my kids sometimes. And I watched this Daffy Duck one that's set on the Hollywood lot in the 40s. He's just, it's just filled with jokes about, you know, 30s and 40s Hollywood. Sure. And I was like, this is the most inscrutable thing I've ever moved. All of this is flying over her.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Do you understand how important that was imprinting upon me where I, like, see that cartoon? I'm like, I need to figure out who all these people are.

[Griffin Newman]

Me, too. It's called Hollywood Daffy.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And it's got, like, you know, Betty Davis, Johnny Weissmuller, Charlie Chaplin, Jimmy Durante, Bing Crosby, like, and all the caricatures.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And you're like, are there people who really look like this?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Jimmy Durante's nose is the size of his leg. And, like, the joke is Clark Gable has dumbo ears.

[Griffin Newman]

Jimmy Durante has, like, a. A house that he's in, and there's, like, an extension for his nose.

[Esther Zuckerman]

That's a. That's 100 comedy points.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he did. He had a big schnoz.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah. The picture, so.

[Griffin Newman]

But Sugarland Express.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah. Sorry.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I'm just trying, like, are there plot points we need to. It's somewhat of a tough movie to go beat by beat through because it's shaggy. But I'm trying to think of, like, what are other plot things we need to mention?

[David Sims]

I do love the bathroom, like, when she needs to piss. And there's, you know, he has that frame witch where he keeps Atherton in the foreground and she's in the background and she keeps running back and forth and she's doing her little pee pee pan dance.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But this is what I mean about the Spielberg. Like, it's all storytelling economy, where he's like, how do you get as much in one shot? Yeah, in one.

[David Sims]

And it all feels so him in terms of the framing of faces and, you know, it's all there.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

I don't know. They. They go. They go get chicken, they go to the car lot, they sleep in the rv, which is a term I remember today.

[Griffin Newman]

The term is runaway vacation. But, you know, RV for short. Six inch Summer. Is that it?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah. He had a six inch summer. Robin Williams gives Josh Hutcherson a motivational talk about the fact that he's picked on by the bigger kids at school. And he's like, I. I was like you when I was younger. It's very short. And then one year, I had a 6 inch summer. I came back, it spreaded like a beanstalk. And six inch Summer lives in my head forever. Especially because Josh Hutcherson never got anything.

[Griffin Newman]

Anything got shorter. Robin Williams, negative 6. Exactly. I was watching clips of Robin Williams on Craig Ferguson recently. Fun to watch.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, yeah, that's. That's a real. We didn't know what we had. We took him for granted.

[Griffin Newman]

We took the Late, Late show with Craig Ferguson for granted.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, that's what I meant. I feel like Robin got his flowers in his lifetime. Not consistently, but across, on balance, Craig Ferguson, it was just like, we let this go and now, like the late night talk shows. Horrible.

[Griffin Newman]

The shift from Ferguson to Cordon.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Beginning of the end is beginning of the end.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's also. Is that the most drastic shift in vibes, like, in quality? Because it's like, from Leno to Fallon, it's kind of like.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, you know, from Carson Aleno. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Carson Aleno isn't great, but I guess old Carson was pretty phoned in, right? Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But Corden is just like doubling down on everything that was already heading in a bad direction.

[Griffin Newman]

Kilborn to Stewart is like one of the biggest leaps in history. People try to act like Kilbourne was good, Kilborn was terrible. That Kilbourne was so bad.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I talk about a guy who had a six inch summer. Did he have a tall drink of water? He had to at some point, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, he had several.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, maybe. I. I just like that when. What else happens when Atherton's being questioned by his friend who's trying to stop him from, like, you're gonna ruin your life. Don't walk out of here. His response is just, I got it. If I don't, she's gonna run off.

[Griffin Newman]

Right? Yeah, that's something. He's along for the. Right. She's. She's the. She's the driver, he's the passenger.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But everything is just sort of like caught up in the intensity of a moment.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't. I don't dislike William Atherton at all. I think he's a very good screen presence and he's fine in the movie. I kind of wish someone else was in that role who sort of popped more.

[David Sims]

There's something.

[Griffin Newman]

There's nothing wrong with this movie. There's a good movie. So it's not like I'm like, ah, if only fucking, you know, Robert Redford had played that role.

[David Sims]

I'm not saying that nice about him being such a. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

There is zero.

[David Sims]

You know, like, she's so vibrant and he's sort of in the. As you said, like, he's along for the ride. I just want one more, like sort of a nerdy little, you know, can.

[Griffin Newman]

I have, like, one more fun character in this movie?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Because it's basically Like, Han is a firecracker.

[David Sims]

Slide is pretty bored.

[Griffin Newman]

Johnson is very compelling. But you know, it's a quiet performance.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

But yes, Slides a little boring. Atherton, he's doing his thing, but it's not, you know, like, what if there was just like, I don't know, like a funky grandma or something? Like, just like someone else. Right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But Atherton is what Ben's describing. He's like a low level criminal who's not really thinking. This is kind of like driven by like energy.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't think we have already recorded our Jaws episodes since it's not like we start the Jaws episode by being like Steven Spielberg after making the Sugarland Express, was like, I need a fucking movie where a shark bites someone in half, God damn it. But it does feel that way. Where in Sugarland, he's like, I'm treating this like pretty realistically. And this is a human movie about like people in odd circumstances. And in Jaws he's like, quint will go and like, it's going to be big and like explosive.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Can I circle back to this was a thesis forming in my head, right? All this stuff about the cultural movements looking at him relative to the other movie brats. And as they're developing, right. All the other guys, I said, who basically, basically had to be forced to make a personal film away from commercial instincts. And then they found their voice, right? Where Spielberg starts with something that feels more like a smaller, more personal film on its face. And the other guy who's kind of similar to him in this way is Coppola, who kept doing these sort of like exercises. And it was like, no one wants these. These are not connecting. And then it's sort of like if you don't make a hit next you're done. You're like, wunderkin status has enough with.

[Griffin Newman]

Your finny rainbow and your rain people.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And it's like, take this fucking beach read and make this something that works. And what's weird is in the case of both Jaws and Godfather, these guys find really personal ways into this material. It's not just like the sort of, I gotta take a job for hire and just make it the best that I can in the sort of, let's say Zemeckis Romancing the Stone thing. I just need a hit. Give me a solid script, I'll direct the shit out of it. But that feels like a job for hire for him. Whereas Godfather and Jaws, those two guys found things that no one else could have found it.

[Griffin Newman]

They're working off best selling material. So they. You're right. That they have that in their hands of like, well, that's a bit of a guarantee, isn't it? Like, this is something that people have even heard of. Right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

This movie's gonna sell itself in a certain way. But also.

[Griffin Newman]

But those are not movies where they were like, yeah, I'll just direct the shit out of it. You're right. It's much, much more. More expansive than that.

[Esther Zuckerman]

What they did there, they, like, tunneled into it. And they both were guys who maybe needed to, as I was saying, kind of refract themselves through someone else's story.

[Griffin Newman]

But I just feel like with Sugarland, like, there's just a lot of restraint with Spielberg, not that this is. It has flashy moments. And obviously people like Pauline Kael watched it and were like, wow, this guy is a stylish filmmaker.

[David Sims]

But, I mean, it's so stylish. But.

[Griffin Newman]

But it is not. I mean, what are. Like, let me look at the movies of 1974.

[David Sims]

Like, I mean, and I think what that gets down to, ultimately, and I don't want to repeat it, but it's like this weird sweetness to it, too, that it's like, you know, Spielberg, which is. Yeah. Which is so Spielbergy. But, like. Because I think the thing is, is when you're dealing with people like this, there's a. You know, making it flashier might mean sort of like, obviously there's a Looney Tunes element to them. So I don't want to say, like, cartooning about, but. But might turn them into, you know, more over the top characters. But instead, sort of the, The. The. The lack of flash is just him burrowing into character.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Is that.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, it's fascinating because, you know, famously, Pauline Kale put her, like, chips down and was like, this is one of the most exciting debuts in movie history.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And then she saw Rage, the Lost Ark.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It was like Hack Dog. He, like, went all in on him on this one. And you read the tenor of that review and you look at the other reviews that this movie got, most people are kind of like, whatever. It's like some flashy thing. It's got moments. We'll talk, really hang together.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

We'll talk about it, but talk about it. There was a feeling coming out of this that it was like most people were not bowled over by this. It didn't even have the sort of dual, like, oh, people in the industry are sitting up straight. He was in a position where he needed to coming off of this, make something that worked. This thing totally flatlined. Commercially, you know, and people were just kind of comparing it unfavorably to Bonnie and Clyde and other like this Lovers on the Run movies.

[Griffin Newman]

I can tell you a little bit about that. But is there anything more we want to talk about in the movie before we do that? Talk about the reaction to the movie.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Should we talk about the ending proper? I mean, sad. I think that is funny.

[Griffin Newman]

The bear gets me.

[Esther Zuckerman]

If you try to put yourself in the headspace of 1974, sure.

[Griffin Newman]

X is Chainsaw Massacre, but you're also.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Like the Spielberg kid. Sheinberg's folly. Right. This young kid, he signed to like a multi year deal. What's he doing? He just makes car pictures in the desert.

[Griffin Newman]

It's true.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And you look at the negative reviews for this movie and people are like, he just seems really interested in the cars.

[Griffin Newman]

Gearhead.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah. They truly were just sort of like.

[David Sims]

It's so weird because it's such a.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Character based, humanistic, but it's got really.

[Griffin Newman]

Good vehicle action in it. When it. When it has that stuff, it's well done. But it's. Yeah. This is not. Movie is not like an evil Knievel style like car phantasma, you know, like.

[David Sims]

You know, credits rolling over just like slide just, you know, sitting there by the water.

[Griffin Newman]

Similarly to the ending of Dude.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Exact same shot.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And Jaws has similarly Sundown, the silhouettes and just someone left to kind of process what they've just been through.

[Griffin Newman]

It's. It is interesting to think that Texas Chainsaw Massacre came out the same year, which it did, because it's, you know.

[David Sims]

Obviously Portrait of Texas.

[Griffin Newman]

True Spielberg, like big Times. Toby Hooper. 10 years later. Right. Or yeah, about 10 years later with Poltergeist.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But is another film that feels weirdly twinned to this in certain ways it is.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. But they. But it's like they are contemporary, really. Even though by that point Spielberg was more powerful. This film. Yeah. The ending. Yeah. Atherton dying. Yeah. I don't know. Is there anything else to say about it? It's sort of like this is what's going to happen. It's not even some big moment. It's just like, yeah, someone was finally going to just get off a shot because they've been waiting to.

[David Sims]

I also think there's just the credit to Goldie's performance though, too, which I do think is really.

[Griffin Newman]

She can't believe it.

[David Sims]

In that moment, her whole world collapses.

[Griffin Newman]

Even though it's like everyone might have seen this coming.

[David Sims]

Everything. Yeah, yeah. And. But everything has drained out of her face and she, all that light is gone. And I do think, like, you know, I do think this movie, you know, like, it does really sort of surprise you in what she can do. And I think she sort of, in some ways, rarely like, used that full toolbox in the rest of her career.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, and when we did our Swing Shift episode, the fascinating thing is, you know, she demands these recuts and reshoots because she feels like she was being minimized in the movie. Christine Lottie was getting the attention she wanted, more the focus on the chemistry between her and Kurt. And then you watch the original cut that we did, and she's so much better in the Demi cut. She was wrong, but it's like a performance that's tonally much closer to her in the final moments of this movie. And then, like, Goldie's, like, sort of rock solid movie star Persona from the late 70s on becomes like, she seems just kind of like a ditzy, funny girl, but she's smarter than she seems and she's got a deeper well of emotion than she seems. Right. And this is not that we're like this. You're watching it the whole time and you're like, is she crazy? Is she an idiot? Is she, like, playing everybody? Like, you can't quite figure out what's driving her. And then what is so effective about that final moment is she plays in a way where you immediately see, oh, she genuinely just never thought this could happen.

[David Sims]

It's pure impulse. Like, every. You realize that, like, everything she was acting on is pure impulse. And I think that's sort of what makes the plight of, like, her trying to get the kids sort of so moving too. Is that like. Yeah, she doesn't realize this is a bad idea because she does sort of truly love her kid and she does just wants her. She does just want to take the. There's nothing else going on in her head other than just like, that pure goal. And so it becomes so sad versus.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Like, from not here on out, but shortly hereafter, Goldie's whole thing being like, you think she's just dumb, but actually she has the bones to be the best soldier in the army. This is a movie where the reveal at the end, not that it's like a twist or anything, is like, there's actually kind of nothing else going on. Yeah, she's not.

[David Sims]

There's no, like, a shell of it. She's. She becomes a shell of a person and you're just like, holy shit.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know. This is not one of my favorite Spielberg movies. I mean, is anyone.

[David Sims]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

But every time I've watched it, which is basically like three times in my life, right? Like every 10 years or so, I've always been quietly impressed, like, you know, and I know what to expect.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And nonetheless, you saying, is it anyone's favorite? I've relayed to you a number of conversations I've had with people. When people off the record ask me, hey, who's coming up on the podcast? And I go, we're doing the first half of Spielberg. I've had a couple people, particularly filmmakers, say, you know what fucking rules? Sugarland Express.

[Griffin Newman]

It does rule. And I think it's for those guys also. Probably they're just so used to the imagery of his big movies. And you watch something like Sugar Land, you're like, wow, there's stuff to discover over here.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It also feels like. And part of it's like, maybe, you know, 50th anniversary stuff, but, like, it is recirculating a bit more. For a long time, it was like, only available in Spielberg box sets.

[David Sims]

I hadn't seen it, and I went to see it at Film Forum. Griffin and I tried to organize it, but it didn't work. But it. I also think it did, like, a big Tribeca thing.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes. And Spielberg spoke and was like, this might be the first time it's screened commercially in decades. Which I kind of feel like can't be true. But also it does feel like for a long time it was treated as like, weird early curio.

[Griffin Newman]

The film was tested in the fall of 73. Universal loves it. They're, like, really impressed with the movie. But preview audiences were shown it, and this is interesting on a double bill with Paper Moon, which makes sense vibe wise. Right? But maybe they're also just kind of like, I'm loving that movie. I just watched it like, okay, here's Sugarland Express. And it's like, that's not jiving with them or whatever, but it basically got kind of bad test results.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Paper Moon's also just like a crowd pleaser. Like, you read the way people were talking about it at the time. Tatum, like, being all cute despite it getting Oscar nominations. People were like, this is just sort of like popcorn fluff for the masses. Like, this thing's fun, quaint, black and white.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. About a Bible salesman.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Spielberg says, you know, oh, sorry. Universal executive Bill Gilmore says, like, the first half, audiences were with when it was more of a caper. That's fun. And then as it starts to kind of curdle into, you know, melancholy and darkness. They would lose the audience. And ending. They would just kind of be sitting there in silence.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Doesn't ever become like a proper chase movie.

[Griffin Newman]

And it doesn't ever. Or it becomes less and less of a Goldie Han picture as it goes on. Spielberg. The original cut was about 121 minutes. Spielberg cut it down a little bit, trying to kind of hone it a little more commercially. It wasn't forced to, but he just sort of did it. They intended to put this movie out Thanksgiving 73, but because it's not testing very well, they kind of dumped it into March 74. And it made $7 million and was pulled from theaters quickly. And like, meh. And it came out around the same time as Badlands and Thieves Like Us.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Oh, Wild.

[Griffin Newman]

And there was kind of this, like, yeah, there's a little too much of the same thing right now.

[Esther Zuckerman]

The long tale of Bonnie and Cloud, of people trying to recapture that type of movie. None of those are carbon copies. But I also think Badlands was not a big hit, but it was like. Like kind of a film festival sensation. And there were like 50 people who responded the way that Pauline Kael responded. We're coming off of that. It was just like, Malik's anointed people want his next project, and Paramount's going like, what's the most ambitious idea you got? Whereas coming off of this Universal is not, like, great. Do another one of those Universal's. Like, you got to figure out what your thing is. And it's. And it's. I think the reason we've been saying that a lot of filmmakers now seem to be rediscovering and finding a new love for this movie. Is it. Is this kind of, like, fascinating sliding doors glimpse into, like, what if Steven Spielberg wasn't forced into becoming Steven Spielberg? And in a way, what he became feels like the most honest reflection of who he was meant to be.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. It worked out.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Imagine a path in which this movie. You could imagine this movie making $14 million and the studio being, like, cool. You make youth pictures. And he just stays there for a while.

[Griffin Newman]

He could sort of turn around there. I mean, Spielberg recollects, you know, that period when it was supposed to come out. You've got Exorcist, the Sting, Papillon, American Graffiti, Serpico. These, like, big movies, you know, with big stars making a lot of money. And by the time Sugar Land came out, he just kind of felt like an afterthought. The fact that it was like, oh, based on a true story. It's like, that's not that juicy a pitch.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right. There's another movie saying that it's about a guy named Leatherface. The story's a little bit.

[Griffin Newman]

Now. Now, the title of the movie is very subtle and will not grab your eye.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Wait, you tell me this shit's true. Texas Chainsaw is the funniest based on true story. Where it's like, what's the true story? And they're like, some people have killed people in the past.

[Griffin Newman]

Murder exists.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's kind of about Ed Gein.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not like remotely about Ed Gein in that Ed Gein also used human skin. That's like it. Anyway, Spielberg, this is a good quote, says, after Sugar Land, I learned how important marketing is. I think it's as important as making the picture. And that is part of the Spielberg thing. Without a doubt. He says if he did it again, he might make it differently. He might have the first half really be focused on Ben Johnson's character, Captain Tanner, and have everything sort of from inside the police part of it. And don't see the fugitives until you get to them later. Interesting. Spielberg kind of swerve.

[David Sims]

It feels like a late Spielberg thing in the sense that it's like. It's like, okay, like a Bridge of Spies type of thing. Or like, you know, it feels like, you know, procedure and authority feels like something. Yeah. Like he would definitely do later in his career.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It also feels like Spielberg's still being haunted by the energy dip from test screening audiences.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Still 50 years later, trying to game out, like, is there a way I could have kept them locked in the whole time? Time. Because starting with Jaws, he becomes the guy that like, straps you into the roller coaster and you're with him.

[Griffin Newman]

Pauline Kael, after a few jabs about how, you know, she's not sure if Spielberg is actually smart and the movie is commercial and shallow, but she's like. Composition seems to come naturally to him, as it does to some of the young Italians. I assume she means Marty and Francis and Brian.

[David Sims]

American.

[Griffin Newman]

Spielberg uses his gift in a very free and easy American way for humor and for physical response to action. He could be that rarity among directors. A born entertainer, perhaps a new generations. Howard Hawks. The thing with Pauline Kill, where you're reading her reviews and it happens all the time when you read them, where she's like, this piece of. And then four sentences later, she's like, I don't know, maybe he's the next Howard Hawks. And you're like, that guy was pretty good.

[David Sims]

Look I also like a pretty good comparison for Spielberg.

[Griffin Newman]

It is. He is.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I mean, she's right. Yeah. Goosebumps from that sentence to just be like, like, God. The degree to which she.

[Griffin Newman]

She just was right. The only thing she's wrong about is by the time he makes, like, Raiders of the Lost Ark, she's like, poo. He's just treading on his own jokes. And this is airless. And you're just like, pauline, what's the matter with you? Who, like, stepped on your feet today?

[Esther Zuckerman]

I wish I could go in a time machine and show Pauline Kale Red notice. Exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, don't you understand? Yeah.

[David Sims]

So you mean red one. No red either. Oh, wait, what's red notice? I'd love to show the table red notice.

[Esther Zuckerman]

That's so weird because you're a professional entertainment journalist that you forget Red notice. The most watched movie in the history of movies.

[David Sims]

That's the Netflix one.

[Griffin Newman]

It's Dwayne Johnson, Ryan Reynolds, and Gal Gadot.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Eight trillion minutes watched every where.

[Griffin Newman]

They're like all art thieves and cops. I can't remember. I watched it.

[David Sims]

I did not watch it. I'm bad at my job.

[Esther Zuckerman]

That's mathematically impossible that you didn't watch it. Everyone watched it. It. Every day.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

The film won best screenplay at the Ken Film Festival, which people forget, came out in March 1974. End of March 1974. Griffin. And it was not charting. Number one at the box office is the best picture winner of 1973, the Godfather part two. No.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Oh, oh, oh. Huh. It's not French Connection. No, it is.

[Griffin Newman]

That, I believe, is 71.

[Esther Zuckerman]

1970. Nope, it's not Midnight Cowboy. I'm trying to think of the early 70s winners.

[Griffin Newman]

That's 69, I think.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Oh, you're right. But it wins in 70. Okay, so it's not.

[Griffin Newman]

What's the movie that wins in between the Godfathers?

[Esther Zuckerman]

That's what I'm trying to. David. In fact, that's what I'm trying to remember. The movie that wins in between.

[Griffin Newman]

It was a gigantic hit starring two major stars.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Fiddler in the Room. It's. It's stars. Two major stars. It's the Sting. The Sting, one of the highest grossing movies.

[David Sims]

Should have done that. I was just rewatching.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Adjusted for inflation, the Sting made like.

[Griffin Newman]

It's right up there. Made like $20 billion. I mean, Thanos was in it, to be fair.

[Esther Zuckerman]

He was huge hit.

[Griffin Newman]

It's been out for four months or whatever, and it's still completely crushing it. Number two at the box office. Is a big flop. It is a musical film starring someone who didn't make a lot of movies.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Interesting. It's based on.

[Griffin Newman]

Based on a musical.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Is it Mahogany or Lazy? No, but when you say someone who doesn't make a lot of movies, is it someone like that who's primarily musician or a singer?

[Griffin Newman]

No interest. What's the other medium of performance?

[David Sims]

Comedy.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah. They're primarily television star of a TV star.

[Griffin Newman]

Not that she didn't make movies.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But it's Mary Tyler Moore.

[Griffin Newman]

No. Nope.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And it's not Lucille Ball. And it is mute.

[Griffin Newman]

Lucille Ball in maim. That's exactly what it is. You did her last role. Lucille Ball's last film role.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right. Because she didn't make a lot of movies. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Now, she did tell J. Edgar Hoover to go take a hike, though.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And everyone did that.

[Esther Zuckerman]

No, it's the opposite. J. Edgar Hoover said, I like you. And everyone was like, yay. You haven't seen drawer number two yet.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

Maybe tomorrow.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It'll be old business by the time this episode comes out. But I'm sitting there watching it. It made me so retroactively angry that J.K. simmons got an Oscar nomination for Being the Ricardos. I'm like, Jason, J.K. simmons should get four acting nominations just for juror number two. That's exactly what you want him doing.

[David Sims]

Yeah. He does the Chicago accent.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Oh, my God, David, that sounds good. You're gonna nut.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm gonna nut. I'm already nutting. Number two is Mame. Number three is the film that the Sting beats to Best Picture. That is another of the, adjusted for inflation, like, highest grossing movies of all time.

[Esther Zuckerman]

That's not. It's not the Exorcist.

[Griffin Newman]

It sure, sure is. William Friedkin's the Exorcist.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Which is good.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Was Exorcist. The expected winner was Sting. Just a juggernaut.

[Griffin Newman]

I think this thing was a juggernaut. But I think that was a pretty hot Oscars because the Exorcist was such a, like, hot button sensation.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And you had two of the highest grossing movies of all time, like humongous cultural phenomenons.

[Griffin Newman]

And then you've got three of the other three biggest movies of all time. Cries and Whispers, A Touch of Class, and American Graffiti, which was a big movie. Yeah, that is. It's a really good fight to have.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Like three full on blockbusters.

[Griffin Newman]

Sting, Graffiti, Exorcist, Cries and Whispers, which is a wonderful nomination. And then Touch a Class, where you're like, yeah, they had to have, like a British thing. Right. But it's not the worst movie.

[Esther Zuckerman]

European, emotionally devastating films. And then like three, like, raw looking.

[David Sims]

So sort of like goofy.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Okay.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Such a. Classes.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I've never seen such a class.

[David Sims]

I watched it for my book.

[Griffin Newman]

Exorcist is a far better film than the Sting, in my opinion. But I get it with the Sting. Just in terms of, like, the vibes were. Were great. Right. I mean, like. Right. I mean, everyone had a good time. Tinkly piano, cons, hats, things slowly transitioning.

[Esther Zuckerman]

From daguerreotype into real image.

[Griffin Newman]

That's good. That still gets me. People were losing their number four at the box office.

[Esther Zuckerman]

So Bradford would have been Captain America and Paul Newman would be Tony Stark.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, he would.

[Esther Zuckerman]

If. If Robert Shaw is Thanos. Right, right, sure.

[Griffin Newman]

And Marvin Hamlisch is our. Is great. Number four. It's a adventure action adventure movie. One of the drunkest films ever made.

[Esther Zuckerman]

One of the drunkest films ever made. It's an action adventure movie.

[David Sims]

I'm just assuming the people were drunk.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I'm assuming it's not like Kelly's Heroes or something like that.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Is it.

[Griffin Newman]

That was probably a drunk one too, though.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Is it a war film though?

[Griffin Newman]

No. No, it's not.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's not one of the drunkest films ever made. Does it have a lot of old British theater act?

[Griffin Newman]

Correct. A lot of Brits.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's got a lot of Brits, including.

[Griffin Newman]

One who was just like a walking barrel of wine.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Oliver Reed.

[Griffin Newman]

Correct.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Like one of those guys with, like. He was really famously drunk. You're like, that guy. Are you sure nothing about him reads that way?

[Esther Zuckerman]

I mean, I just love, like, maybe twice a year, I read the Wikipedia entry on Oliver Reed's death. Death during the filming of Gladiator. And they were like, he's uninsurable. If he has one more drink, he'll die. And they hired a body man to watch him at all times to make sure he didn't drink. And then he was found dead at a pub sitting next to his body man. And they were like, you had one job. And he was like, I was never gonna stop.

[Griffin Newman]

Kidding me. He died doing a drinking competition.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And they were, wait, really?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

The guy was basically like, what did you expect? And everyone's like, yeah, we press no charges. He had, like, an accountability buddy.

[Griffin Newman]

It was. I believe it was truly David Hemings, who is in Gladiator, another great British actor who had been drafted into that. And he was like, yeah, I'm sorry. I don't know, man.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Right. And you're like, what? He died of old age. No, he's 27.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, Oliver Reed is one of those things where you see him in Gladiator and you're like, oh, he's like 75 in this. Right? They're like, no, he's like, just turned 60.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Like, he now is 15 years.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Gladiator.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Like, he could, like, have sex all day in that movie and does in the movie. He really is very good. He's so good in a film I think is totally fine and entertaining, but, like, he is just sort of so good.

[Esther Zuckerman]

You see, we got the Bucket little by.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's a good.

[Esther Zuckerman]

The Bucket's good. I haven't seen the movie, but I'm a big fan of the Bucket.

[David Sims]

The Good Bucket.

[Griffin Newman]

Anyway, what's this movie it stars on Reed.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Okay. Oliver Reed, Drunk adventure film.

[Griffin Newman]

Action adventure.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Can you give me, like, is there another sub genre? Is there a setting? Is there Washbuckler? Oh, is it Three Musketeers?

[Griffin Newman]

The Three Musketeers, a film I've seen. Don't remember very well, but I've seen both it and the Four Musketeers. But, you know, it's just. It's not just that. It's like Oliver reading stuff. It's like, Oliver, Richard Tameline. They're, you know, they've got their hats like. Ah, you. You know, waving swords around like.

[Esther Zuckerman]

These are not like. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

These aren't really, like, nuanced performances.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, I've never seen those. People love them. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

I think now they would probably play a little, like, stiffer than we think.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I feel like a reclamation project recently on them.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, because Soderbergh is so fond of the Richard Lester sort of vibe.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Tarantino loves those movies. They shot on a really unique film format too.

[Griffin Newman]

Drunk O Vision.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I was gonna say they just poured brandy into the camera bureau.

[Griffin Newman]

Vision. They used a beer bottle as the lens. Alcoholism is a serious business, except when it's British actors from the 60s say.

[Esther Zuckerman]

That while I'm already laughing.

[Griffin Newman]

Then it's funny because now they're all old and. Or dead. So it's like, okay, you know, remind.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Me who the four were.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, in the. In the Three Musketeers, Michael York is D'Artagnan. Oliver Reed is Athos. Frank Finlay, the great Frank Finlay, who recently died as Porthos, and Richard Chamberlain as Aramis. Who is America Richard Chamberlain. But, you know, kind of in that world.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Love to pull the cork. You know, I've been misattributing that.

[Griffin Newman]

You have. You've been Or. Or I have. One of us has been misattributing the speaker of that line.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Because Dakin Matthews is in the scene, but he doesn't actually say it.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Dakin Matthews is the one who she.

[Griffin Newman]

Negotiates with, and he's amazing in that scene.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And I already forget the name of the actor, but it's my favorite actor of all time. My favorite performance in movie history.

[Griffin Newman]

Number five at the box office. I already mentioned it. It's a big drama with some big stars. Big, long movie.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's a big, long movie. Touch of class.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no, it was a big hit. It was like a big, expensive film. I think of it as kind of a boring movie. Honestly.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Interesting. Major director.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Kind of. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, yeah, major. Ish. He made some big movies, including this one.

[Esther Zuckerman]

You think?

[Griffin Newman]

Two huge stars.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Kind of boring. Two stars.

[Griffin Newman]

Dalton Trumbo wrote the script, so it was a wet one.

[David Sims]

He was in the bathroom.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Splish, splash, click, click, clack. Dalton Trumbo wrote it. You think it's a boar? Male and female star.

[Griffin Newman]

No, two boys. She's a boy movie. Big boy movie.

[Esther Zuckerman]

The big boy.

[Griffin Newman]

The movie is a teenager that boys would tell me rocked. And I'd be like, it's okay.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Really?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. It was remade recently, like, completely irrelevantly.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Teenage boys loved it.

[Griffin Newman]

Now, but that's a kind of a bad clue.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Because I feel like I'm just.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It was remade irrelevantly.

[Griffin Newman]

It's in the last 10 years.

[Esther Zuckerman]

In the last 10 years.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm going to give you. It's a prison movie.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Oh, pep. What?

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, I'm not wrong, right?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Kind of boring.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, well, we disagree. Wow. I completely disagree. It just goes on a bit. Yeah. It's got cool stuff and, like, they're good.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah. I've told that story on the podcast about Steve McQueen smuggling the coke and the tires of his luxury sports car that he made them fly to the island.

[Griffin Newman]

That rings a faint bell.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But I've ruined the story.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure have.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You just told it.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It was Dustin Hoffman recognizing that's the level of star power this guy has that he demands they fly his sports car so he can drive it around the island in between.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And he's like, oh, ho, ho.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And he was like, that's a power move. And it's like, no. The car is the packaging system for the cocaine.

[Griffin Newman]

This car.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Number six at the box office, I just want to say. Is a. I think Hong Kong action movie called Blood Finger Fingers. Looks fun.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Cool.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know how that's in the top 10, but it is Blood Finger. You've also got Serpico. You've heard of that one?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, a good movie, although lower on my 70s. And 70s Pacino. But I. I kind of rocks. Yeah. No, it doesn't.

[Griffin Newman]

It just kind of rocks that it's about a guy who's like, I don't want to be a cop. I want to be, like, kind of a dirty hippie guy.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Peter Seraphinowich would always talk Serpico. I've had this conversation with him, like, 15 times where he's like, you know what? I don't like Serpico. And I'm like, really? Why? And he goes, kind of an annoying God.

[Griffin Newman]

The whole movie is kind of about it being annoying.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Dude is annoying. I've always. I like. I love them.

[Griffin Newman]

He's right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

He is right.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, like, Serpico's in the right.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Infamously annoying. He's. Yeah, it's annoying that he's so right.

[Griffin Newman]

Number eight is a movie I've never heard of starring Elliot Gould and Robert Blake, the mystery man himself.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Busting.

[Griffin Newman]

Busting, yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, that's the Heims movie.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know that movie.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, it's a Heims movie.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a cop movie.

[Esther Zuckerman]

We talked about it in our 2010 episode. A little bit.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't remember. Good name.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I've seen it. It's a gold blind spot for me.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you think it makes them feel good?

[Esther Zuckerman]

In the 70s, busting didn't really make anyone feel good.

[Griffin Newman]

Number nine at the box office is the great Blazing Saddles Gun My Head.

[Esther Zuckerman]

My favorite comedy of all time.

[Griffin Newman]

Good call. And number 10 at the box office is a major flop of the year. The Great Gatsby.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Oh, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Jack Clayton's terminally dull, nice looking.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Just one of those, like, inexplicably inert movies.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. And that's why when people on the Lerman movie, I'm like, I don't know, man. That movie is fun and moves and the. You can see the really boring Lerman movie. I've seen it 1,000 times. I.

[Esther Zuckerman]

You know, I think if they try doing four more Broadway musicals, they're gonna crack.

[David Sims]

But at the same time, okay, apparently the one that was in Boston was good.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. The other one that we haven't gotten.

[David Sims]

Currently on Broadway is Garb, but apparently the other ones.

[Esther Zuckerman]

But is the other one gonna transfer or.

[David Sims]

I think. Yeah, definitely. Probably.

[Griffin Newman]

Definitely, Probably. It does seem like the. The bad one made so little impact that they can probably just have another one.

[David Sims]

Also the, the one from Art is like, has music by Florence the Machine. So it's probably a little bit. It is like, like more grabby.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Sounds like the dog days were over. Here's the thing that's interesting about this current era of David Sims.

[David Sims]

We're living through this current era of David.

[Griffin Newman]

What's the great thing of what.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Okay, admittedly pretty stressed and sleep deprived at all times.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Sometimes you have 90% less tolerance for my jokes than you usually do and other times you are so susceptible to them.

[Griffin Newman]

Very amused by that.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I'll throw out just real weak tea and I'll break you.

[David Sims]

You do see, David does seem just to place this episode real tired all the time.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm. I think that's not going to change for a little bit.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And you know, previously you've always been considered a bright eyed and bushy tailed.

[Griffin Newman]

Leave me alone. We're done.

[David Sims]

We're done.

[Griffin Newman]

I think David said to me recently when I asked him, how's it going? He said, hanging by a thr.

[Esther Zuckerman]

We're living through good times, Esther.

[David Sims]

Oh yeah, buy my book.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Buy her dang book, folks.

[David Sims]

Buy my dang book if you want to.

[Griffin Newman]

The link's in the episode description.

[David Sims]

It's in the episode description. By this time I will have had a wonderful launch, hopefully with David Sims moderating.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Where's that happening?

[David Sims]

The Strand. I emailed you about it. You got to check your email. Ben also got it. And Ben, Ben, Ben acknowledged it. It's on December 3rd and it'll be fun. We're gonna go drinking afterwards.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, Ben did respond. Okay, I'll repeat right now.

[David Sims]

But yeah, I, I am proud of that. And it's. I think it's fun. I think it's a fun, fun little read.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Is it the dumb question you've been asked 8 trillion times? I may be asked you in the past what you're. Do you have a like sort of perfect rom com in your mind? Not even favorite. I saw you're doing a Philadelphia Story.

[David Sims]

Yeah, that's my favorite.

[Esther Zuckerman]

That's.

[David Sims]

Yeah, that's my favorite. I don't know. Perfect is so hard.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Is there one that you just think is like, I mean it might be.

[David Sims]

Philadelphia's Story, but I do think that movie is brilliant.

[Esther Zuckerman]

The sort of like ultimate example of what you like or want out of the genre.

[David Sims]

Roman Holiday always ends up real high.

[Griffin Newman]

Really good movie.

[David Sims]

Sabrina always ends up really high on my list.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, we're both, we're both horny for Bogey, actually.

[David Sims]

And Bill Holden. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

He's hot.

[David Sims]

We. We. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Bogey. Ah, Bogey in that Sabrina mode. You don't see it enough.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I just never can process how short he was.

[Griffin Newman]

He's a little guy, but he's one.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Of those guys where just on screen, it doesn't make sense. And then you hear that he was like, my thigh.

[David Sims]

So those are. I. Those are obviously. Obviously. I think.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Oh, a great pick.

[David Sims]

You know, the Nora is like when Harry is pretty boring to pick. But I do think it's pretty perfect.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's pretty Leopold K. Someone like you raising Helen.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm trying to think, is there a third Hugh Jackman rom com?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Oh, you just like the Hughes.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

X Men Origins. Wolverine.

[Griffin Newman]

Beautiful. Him and Dominic Monahan.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, there isn't. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. I mean, it's just so annoying where it was like, let's get this guy in some rom coms. They make Caitlin Leopold, which Loki rocks. Someone like you, which is fairly anonymous. And then they're kind of like, yeah, forget it. Like, that era is over.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's the thing we talk about a lot that he was like in the last generation where they were trying to do the conventional movie star track of like, we got to get you in one of each. We got to build your audience piece by piece. And then they were like, what if you're just Wolverine? And then every 10 years you get. That's what I'm saying. Like, it was basically like, if you do six Wolverines for every six Wolverines, we let you do your own thing one time. And then. Greatest showman work.

[Griffin Newman]

I just love the premise of a Someone like you, where Ashley Judd's like, someone dump me. Greg Kinnear, dump me. And Hugh Jackman plays a guy who's like, well, men are pigs. Yeah. He's like, man or pigs? And she's like, oh, you. I can't listen to you. Handsomest person who ever lived. And he's like, all right, I'll just sit over here. And after a while, she's like, like, you want to. Maybe you're like, yay. And then it's like, roll credit.

[Esther Zuckerman]

That's a Tony Goldwin picture. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Pretty funny that it's a Tony Goldwood movie. I don't really know why he made that movie. Is fine. And then the Last Kiss, that movie with Braff.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Is so execrable that you were like, banish this man from filmmaking.

[Esther Zuckerman]

And then he just had, like an incredible second wind as like a hunk.

[Griffin Newman]

Once again, as sort of hunk for Mom.

[David Sims]

I Went to go see the Last Kiss in a movie theater because I was so excited about the new Zach Braff picture. Makes me feel like a piece of.

[Esther Zuckerman]

No, but it was like his first big move. Oh.

[Griffin Newman]

100. It was.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Zach has something to say.

[Griffin Newman]

It has his fingerprints all over it like that. Braff clearly was like, I'm. Here's my ipod. I'm doing the soundtrack for this movie and all that you.

[David Sims]

It's so bad. Anyway. Yeah. Not a good movie, but there are a lot of good movies in my book, which has also some nice pictures.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Can we restate?

[Griffin Newman]

I just out of here.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Always like this game. Especially as now we're firmly in our 10th year of the podcast, the Esther Zuckerman blank check. Canon is.

[David Sims]

Huh?

[Esther Zuckerman]

I'm. I'm not going in order here. The Little Mermaid.

[David Sims]

Huh?

[Esther Zuckerman]

The Piano.

[David Sims]

Huh.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I'll do anything. Regular musical. Cut.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Gone girl.

[David Sims]

Huh?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Sugarland Express. I feel like for a while you were like. You guys saddled me with the bad movies.

[David Sims]

You're getting the big one. My first one.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Well, aloha. Which of course is about the sky. Am I forgetting another one?

[David Sims]

You can't see this. We can't see the sky in here. It's so dark.

[Esther Zuckerman]

I do think you've. You've won back the narrative.

[David Sims]

I have.

[Esther Zuckerman]

You' You've now covered more good films than bad.

[David Sims]

I know you can. Next time you can give me a piece of.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Okay. You're gonna get a finger.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Next time you can Shy first movie.

[David Sims]

No, I'll refuse.

[Griffin Newman]

Just heaven almighty.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah. 20. 20. Get on the arm.

[David Sims]

No, you're welcome to give me a piece of next time. They are fun. I've had some real nice luck though. Doing some good ones.

[Esther Zuckerman]

You're one of the best. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Best. Esther. I don't mean that to sound sarcastic. You are.

[David Sims]

Yeah. You sounded like you're the best.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Sugar Land Express. Great movie.

[David Sims]

Woo.

[Griffin Newman]

Next week, Jaws.

[David Sims]

Never heard of it.

[Griffin Newman]

What's up with that one?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah. And just pre warning that one's kind of more of a mini sode. We just didn't have much to say about it.

[David Sims]

Who's on your Jaws?

[Esther Zuckerman]

Timothy.

[David Sims]

Timothy Simons.

[Esther Zuckerman]

The great Tim Simons is back to talk about Jaws in what is definitely.

[Griffin Newman]

These 20 minutes to talk about her text styles.

[Esther Zuckerman]

There's a lot of sex talk but. But a lot of very on topic conversation about the movie Jaws and what is jokes aside, a very long episode.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, it's long. I don't know you. Hey, not you. The listener. You don't like it listen to talk to her. Let's see how long those are. How long those episodes are.

[Esther Zuckerman]

How much do you think she talks about Jaws per episode? You're complaining that we're talking too much about other.

[Griffin Newman]

I don't think she does. About an hour.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I would guess she's maybe never seen a movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, she's seen like parts of movie.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Since probably seem like the Lion King.

[Esther Zuckerman]

We're still waiting to hear back if she wants to do Empire. This one. Come on.

[Griffin Newman]

She's serious.

[David Sims]

My dad on Empire the sun my dad loves.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Really?

[David Sims]

Yeah. My dad loves Empire the Sun. Well, it's one of my dad's faves.

[Esther Zuckerman]

It's between him and Haley Welsh, so. Yeah, tell him to work on his okay, I just typed in Haley Welsh movie.

[Griffin Newman]

I typed in talk to his favorite movie.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Yeah, I like just calling her talk.

[Griffin Newman]

To which I should have called her something else. And Google's AI which to be clear, I don't think should exist answered that her favorite movie is the Jazz Singer. And I'm just trying to think of like this sort of brain 1927:1. This sort of computer like brain fart that would lead to it being like, I don't know. It's kind of just the first movie with talking in it would be the answer to that.

[Esther Zuckerman]

To us sound like jazz scatting. Like what is the man they're doing. Well, that's.

[David Sims]

Oh, talkies.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, I believe that's what it's doing.

[David Sims]

It wasn't like choosing between Neil Diamond.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Think of no more appropriate way to end this episode. Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review and subscribe. Tune in next week for Jaws, a very successful film.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep, big one.

[Esther Zuckerman]

Over on the Patreon, we're doing our Spielberg bonuses covering a lot of his early short films and TV work. And of course, most importantly, we are finally tackling the Jelly trilogy as commentary. And as always, from the bottom of my heart, I implore all of our listeners to spit on that thing.