Vamps with Caroline Framke

Summary

Blank Check with Griffin & David: Episode Summary – "Vamps with Caroline Framke"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Blank Check with Griffin & David
• Hosts: Griffin Newman and David Sims
• Guest: Caroline Framke
• Producer: Ben Hosley
• Episode: Vamps with Caroline Framke
• Release Date: July 6, 2025

---

Introduction

In this episode of Blank Check with Griffin & David, hosts Griffin Newman and David Sims welcome film critic Caroline Framke to discuss Amy Heckerling's 2012 film, "Vamps." The conversation delves deep into the movie's themes, production nuances, character performances, and its place within Heckerling's filmography.

Overview of "Vamps"

Griffin Newman opens the discussion by expressing his initial reservations about the film's premise, particularly its focus on blogs and modern digital culture:

“Anytime the movie's about, like, blogs or complaining about blogs, I'm like, all right, because you're Junocor.”
— Griffin Newman [00:35]

David Sims contrasts "Vamps" with its contemporaries, noting its attempt to satirize current societal trends through the lens of vampire lore.

Thematic Analysis

Caroline Framke provides a comprehensive analysis of the film's underlying themes, emphasizing the metaphorical use of vampires:

“Vampires have always been a metaphor for marginalized people... But in this movie, it's much more drugs than sex until Justin Kirk and Mary Lou Henner have their moment.”
— Caroline Framke [03:33]

The hosts discuss how "Vamps" diverges from traditional vampire narratives by focusing on themes of immortality, relevance, and the exhaustion of maintaining youthfulness:

“They're trying to stay forever young, but it's not enough to just biologically be forever young. They need to figure out how to be relevant young women, which is this whole fucking game, this, like, rat race they have to do.”
— David Sims [07:58]

Performances and Characters

The episode highlights standout performances, particularly Kristen Ritter's portrayal of Stacy (Goody) and Alicia Silverstone's role as the enigmatic vampire:

“Kristen Ritter is so sweet and vamps. There's one line in it that's so the B that I was like, oh, this is where she was...”
— Caroline Framke [49:10]

Griffin Newman appreciates how the characters embody Amy Heckerling's duality between optimism and pessimism:

“Vamps is about commenting on her weird state as a person whose currency professionally comes from understanding the youth, the younger generations.”
— David Sims [72:38]

Production and Direction

The discussion shifts to the film's production constraints, particularly its modest budget of approximately $10 million, and how this influenced Heckerling's creative decisions:

“It's a very clear filmmaking. You're like, if you move it an inch, this entire environment's going to fall apart.”
— David Sims [05:44]

The hosts commend Heckerling's ability to infuse the film with rich details despite financial limitations, though they note areas where budget constraints led to executional compromises:

“She just has to adjust... It’s the moment where she realizes there’s a two birds with one stone solution, which is, I need to kill Sigourney to sever the stem.”
— Caroline Framke [73:54]

Critical Reception and Box Office

"Vamps" had a limited theatrical release, primarily due to its niche appeal and the timing of its release in the crowded vampire genre landscape dominated by franchises like Twilight and True Blood. The film garnered mixed reviews, with praise for its thematic ambition but criticism for execution flaws:

“Box office Final for this movie was $10,000, $3,000 dollars? It's not amazing. You're right.”
— Griffin Newman [68:51]

Despite its modest performance, "Vamps" found its audience through various streaming platforms, allowing it to achieve a cult following.

Reflections on Amy Heckerling’s Career

Caroline Framke and the hosts reflect on Amy Heckerling's career trajectory, particularly how "Vamps" represents a departure from her earlier successes like Clueless:

“She clearly loves making movies about optimistic people, but she also respects the necessity of pessimism, which is a recurring theme in her work.”
— Caroline Framke [50:22]

They discuss the challenges Heckerling faced in maintaining her artistic vision amidst changing industry trends and the decline of the high-concept, larger-budget studio comedy.

Rankings of Amy Heckerling’s Films

The episode concludes with Griffin Newman and David Sims ranking Amy Heckerling's filmography. Their rankings reflect their personal preferences and critical assessments:

1. Clueless
   “Clueless is the top because of its iconic status and enduring influence.”
   — Griffin Newman [154:00]

2. Fast Times Original
   “A foundational piece that set the stage for her later works.”
   — David Sims [154:04]

3. Look Who's Talking

4. Johnny Dangerously

5. Vamps

6. Euro Vacation

7. I Could Never Be Your Woman

8. Other Films

“There is no movie she's made that I dislike.”
— David Sims [155:30]

Both hosts agree on the significance of Clueless and Fast Times Original, while acknowledging that later films like "Vamps" showcase Heckerling's continued thematic exploration despite varying degrees of success.

Notable Quotes

• “We cannot do this for two hours. This is not an option.”
  — David Sims [03:00]

• “Bittersweet is definitely the word, especially we'll get to at the end.”
  — Caroline Framke [06:33]

• “This movie's a perfect cultural object. It is not a good movie, but it's a perfect cultural object.”
  — David Sims [160:15]

• “We are saying goodbye to Amy Heckerling.”
  — Griffin Newman [151:25]

Conclusion

Blank Check with Griffin & David provides an insightful and engaging analysis of Amy Heckerling's "Vamps" through the knowledgeable lens of Caroline Framke. The episode not only dissects the film's artistic and thematic elements but also situates it within the broader context of Heckerling's career and the evolving landscape of Hollywood comedies.

Stay Tuned: Join Griffin, David, and their guests in future episodes as they continue to explore the complete filmographies of Hollywood's most influential auteurs.

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This summary captures the essence of the "Vamps with Caroline Framke" episode, highlighting key discussions, thematic insights, and memorable quotes to provide a comprehensive overview for those who haven't listened to the podcast.

Transcript

[Griffin Newman]

Blank check with Griffin and David. Blank check with Griffin and David.

[David Sims]

Don't know what to say or to expect.

[Griffin Newman]

All you need to know is that.

[David Sims]

The name of the shadow is Blackjack. Ugh, it's so annoying. You have to keep learning to use new crap that doesn't actually do anything better than the old crap, which is incompatible with the new crap. So all so that you can have blogs and watch fake teenagers and Real Housewives, and it's all happening too fast, and I'm tired. I'm just sick and tired of it all.

[Griffin Newman]

It's okay. You don't have to do the podcast. That's one of my least favorite parts of the movie.

[David Sims]

Really?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Anytime the movie's about, like, blogs or complaining about blogs, I'm like, all right, because you're Junocor.

[David Sims]

You're honest to blogs.

[Griffin Newman]

I like. That's not that I like blogs, although I have no beef with blogs. No, it's just the only time where I'm like, oh, it's 2012. Or it's the. The time when I'm most like, oh, it's 2012.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, because, like, I'm like, oh, there are little did she know what modern horrors awaited, like, all the things she's complaining about. I'm like, oh, no, those things were pretty good.

[David Sims]

This movie is a weird period piece now.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It is carbon dated very much to the exact moment it was made and was even a script that she wrote in 2005.

[Caroline Framke]

But the most horrifying thing wasn't the situation's book launch party. That didn't get you.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, I forgot. I forgot about that. Didn't clock that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

Well, you seem in an irritated mood. Did you struggle with this movie?

[Griffin Newman]

Ben turned off the ac.

[David Sims]

It just.

[Griffin Newman]

It completely shifted my vibe.

[David Sims]

It is insane.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm not joking, because immediately I really.

[David Sims]

You were in a good mood, and now you are hostile. Now you're ready to rant about Julia.

[Griffin Newman]

It's so. It's so vital to my. To me. It's. It really is. I can't do that.

[Caroline Framke]

We're putting it back.

[David Sims]

I mean, Ben, we just. We cannot do this for two hours. This is not an option.

[Griffin Newman]

I just. I love air conditioning so much.

[David Sims]

And when I say this, I'm gesturing to the. It's one of those things where, like, red anger lines.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, well. And you know what? I'm trying to fit him into every episode, so.

[David Sims]

President role.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm a little roky.

[David Sims]

He was. It is.

[Caroline Framke]

Sims had a moodlet. Right?

[David Sims]

Now he Was in a completely fine mood. And then within 30 seconds, he was on. On the brink of roll game.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, what if when Harrison Ford, Thunderbolt Ross was getting mad, right? You know, in that movie where there's. You might notice a scene or two of him going like, right, yeah.

[David Sims]

But then he takes his anti roll.

[Griffin Newman]

Then he's like, pills instead. He was like, turn the thermostat down. And they're like, yes, press president. And he's like, okay, okay, I can't.

[David Sims]

Record my podcast unless there's a zwadi.

[Griffin Newman]

And then finally, the leader is like. And, like, turns the AC off or turns the heat up.

[David Sims]

The leader just writes him a new prescription. That's all his plan is.

[Griffin Newman]

The worst thing about that movie is the leader.

[David Sims]

Caroline.

[Caroline Framke]

See here I thought that the most relevant film for me to see this week for this episode would be Sinners. But no, apparently I needed to see Thunderbolt.

[David Sims]

Have you not seen Sinners?

[Caroline Framke]

I saw it yesterday.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[Caroline Framke]

And then.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, also to be part of America's favorite discourse.

[Caroline Framke]

Yes, exactly. But I was like, oh, vampire film. I should see the vampire film before we talk about the vampire film. And then I saw it, and it was kind of a mistake because. Because it fucking ripped. And then it was all I could think about. Yeah, sure, Vamps again. I'd already watched it, and I watched again this morning. To be clear, I like vamps a lot, but they are very different. The moods were.

[David Sims]

I want to say that wild mood swings.

[Griffin Newman]

My whole thing with vamps, and I'm sure we're about to discuss this.

[David Sims]

I think you're about to write the headline here.

[Griffin Newman]

It would be funny if my whole thing with vamps is. I just think Red Hulk is.

[David Sims]

Women shouldn't talk this much is the first.

[Griffin Newman]

What's a 90 minute movie? The first half hour. I'm like, right, the vampires are in the modern world and they have a BlackBerry or whatever. And then after about half an hour.

[David Sims]

Yeah, the T Mobile sidekick is much.

[Caroline Framke]

Cooler than a BlackBerry. Let's get it straight.

[Griffin Newman]

There was a moment in my life I thought about getting a sidekick. I think before I was like, I'm just gonna get an iPhone.

[Caroline Framke]

That moment was Gossip Girl. Gossip Girl was that moment.

[Griffin Newman]

Gossip Girl had it.

[Caroline Framke]

Blair Waldorf had a sidekick.

[Griffin Newman]

Gilmore Girls has a sidekick episode, which is one of the most naked, like, T mobile has paid for. One episode of your show.

[Caroline Framke]

Girls would not make me want to get a sidekick.

[David Sims]

Did you have an oka. Engage. Did you ever engage?

[Griffin Newman]

I never engaged as much as the idea of my telephone calls and My games in one beautiful, perfect, user friendly package.

[David Sims]

Those two things won't clash at all. You want me to do long form gaming on a thing that's also going to keep dinging?

[Griffin Newman]

No. After a little while, I was like, I think I'm kind of into these characters. I think I'm a little sold on this movie. To my mild surprise, I think the.

[David Sims]

First 30 minutes you're just like, yeah, okay, I get it. This is like kind of clever, but whatever. And then I think the remaining hour of the movie is kind of impressively well plotted. I think sort of suddenly you're like, fuck, this thing actually is a good narrative and the characters are all, yes, great cast, no money. That is what I thought you were going to say. The real highlight of this movie is you watch it and you're like, it is impressive that she made it as good as she did. Considering that it's one of those films where you can feel the lack of time. You can feel every single background, like, disappearing 2 inches out of frame. That is like one of the clearest filmmaking. You're like, if you move it an inch, this entire environment's going to fall apart.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, like, that stuff bothered me more than actually the special effects being janky. I think that worked.

[David Sims]

She. Even then I'm like, she is so close to figuring out how to execute the special effects on like an early Tim Burton level where it's like, oh, the jankiness is part of the charm. It's stylized in a comedic way, and yet it feels like she's still 5% short of the budget to being able to execute that properly. Like, everything's just a little under what it should be. In a way that makes this movie very bittersweet to watch because you're just like, God, if they could have just given her like 20% more to work with. Time, money, what have you, you're like, this would have been, if not received properly as like a commercial comeback film. It would be a movie our series could end on that would feel a lot more triumphant.

[Caroline Framke]

Bittersweet is definitely, I feel like the word especially we'll get to at the end is so bittersweet. I cried both times I watched this film this week.

[David Sims]

It's fine.

[Griffin Newman]

A little joke.

[David Sims]

The ending is very, very, very emotionally affecting and, like, beautifully built to and earned. And yet in that final second, you're like, God damn it, this effect sucks. This emotional moment relies on.

[Caroline Framke]

I mean, I grew up on Buffy and I've seen worse. Like, you know, I. So that didn't it didn't bother me as much as I should have. And also, I was thinking about it and not to come in here and be like, here's the TV critic ready to relate it to television.

[David Sims]

Here we go.

[Caroline Framke]

If she had been three years later with this.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Caroline Framke]

This would have been a Netflix show. I kept thinking, and I don't want to say that, you know, not derogatory. I mean, like, it could have been. It's a very. The world is defined, the characters are good.

[David Sims]

This movie kind of got made at the exact wrong moment.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. And like it. What if this is the movie she gets the. Well, how much did this movie cost? I don't. I guess we don't know. It might be in the dossier. But like, I was. What if she got the 20 to 30 million dollars she got for her last movie? For this movie?

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Just like, more than the. My guess is less than $10 million she got for this movie.

[David Sims]

The quote in the dossier is 10.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

The quote in the dossier is 10.

[David Sims]

Yes. It feels like this movie should cost 20. You're like.

[Griffin Newman]

Or just. Yeah. Somewhere. Right.

[David Sims]

Even 2015 would have made a difference.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, anything would make a difference.

[David Sims]

Anything would make a difference. It feels like if she had waited two years, Amazon either would have given her $30 million to make it as a movie when they were in their sort of Ted Hope led, we're bringing back the forgotten auteurs and giving them blank checks phase, or Netflix would have done it as a series, and either way, she would have had the support she needed. It would have been depressing that that's how it got made. But, like, this movie is in a crux point of, like, the high concept, larger budget studio comedy has kind of died and things have not shifted over to streaming yet.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah. I mean, when I was watching again this morning, I'd watched it alone the first time. The second time my roommate was around and. Or the. Some of the effects, especially towards the end, I was like, there's something so specific this reminds me of. Or something that it's trying to be. And she was like, oh, it's death becomes her. And I was like, that's it. Like, yeah, it's. It's close. It's almost that. But those effects are practical. They're different. They had more money. But there is such, you know, we'll get into. All right. That was the vampire things I love. But Death Becomes her is essentially a vampire movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Here's the whole thing with the N Gage, the thing they fucking and this is what I forgot about this. Thank God. And Ben, just to you know when you see this, you think high end video gaming, right. When you see that device, heart starts fluttering.

[Caroline Framke]

Can I, can I see this?

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, do you not know the end game? I figured you were just oh, cross. Oh no, no.

[Caroline Framke]

I've never seen that in my life.

[David Sims]

Was just like we are going to.

[Griffin Newman]

Make our own Game Boy.

[David Sims]

Right. And they were like, we will make the world's coolest cell phone. And the, the Game Boy killer. They thought they were going to like dominate two industries simultaneously.

[Caroline Framke]

I feel like where the buttons are on that stresses.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, there's a lot of stressful things about it. Here's the most stressful. To change cartridges for your games, you had to open the phone and take out the whole battery because they forgot like. Oh, right. Like the cartridges go behind the.

[David Sims]

They were sort of using like SIM card logic of like. Well, you don't change that very often.

[Griffin Newman]

It was like which was one of the most classic examples of like, you know.

[Caroline Framke]

What year was that?

[Griffin Newman]

2003.

[David Sims]

Wow. That late.

[Griffin Newman]

That late. It was a competitor to the Game Boy.

[Caroline Framke]

I was going to say when was the Game Boy? I'm like, that's not replacing the Game Boy.

[David Sims]

But the advance which had a similar. Was going wide mode.

[Caroline Framke]

I never had the Advance.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. But again, when you look at this screen, does that screen say wide to you? Doesn't say wide to me.

[Caroline Framke]

Skinny. Actually no. The skinny little screen.

[Griffin Newman]

Skinny screen.

[David Sims]

It has the screen of like an original Game Boy that looks like a postage stamp in smaller handheld. Can you show Caroline a photo of the Game Boy advance for comparison?

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I'm sure you know the Game Boy.

[Caroline Framke]

You've now said this twice and the dimensions have been unfamiliar.

[David Sims]

Both times of the screen are better. And also you will see there was a cleaning.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, it's one of those things you were like, oh, a gaming company made that. Like Nintendo actually has, you know, three.

[Caroline Framke]

No, I've, I have some place to.

[David Sims]

Put games and a larger screen.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Although the Game Boy advance had its own problems in that it was not backlit, it was dark as hell because they wanted to save battery power and they realized that was just sort of not going to work anymore.

[David Sims]

Right. You had to get the accessory. I remember I had a little light.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, you snap it on. Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

There was like third party companies would make little like book lights that would go into the, the port you would use for like linked gameplay.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I believe you're correct.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

See I just feel like my hands Wouldn't go that way. It's not natural. The Game Boy. Did you ever have those games, like, when you were really little and your parents were trying to keep you occupied and at a restaurant.

[David Sims]

Tiger.

[Caroline Framke]

Or like you press the.

[David Sims]

They look like LCD games.

[Caroline Framke]

They look. No, not electronic. They're just like. They look like fish tanks.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. With the.

[Caroline Framke]

You press the button and then you're trying to get the fish into the tank. I feel like my. My thumbs were already prepped for that motion. I feel like the Game Boy prime made sense to me in that way.

[David Sims]

But do you remember the Tiger LCD games that were just sort of like.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, there's like little, you know, the whole screen was just bits that could light up essentially with pixels like battletoads or whatever.

[David Sims]

Give that a Google while I introduce the podcast. I want Caroline to see this as well.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

This is important. This is important. To talk about Battle Toads was like.

[Griffin Newman]

Someone being like, what if I ripped off Turtles? Teenage ninja Turtles. No one checked me on.

[David Sims]

Open one tab that's Tiger Electronics LCD game and another tab that's Battle Toads. So we can write. This is Blank Check with Griffin and David. I'm Griffin.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm David.

[David Sims]

It's a podcast about filmographies. David's fast again. Thank God we turned the AC on. Directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. And sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. This has been a miniseries on the films of Amy Heckerling.

[Griffin Newman]

It has.

[David Sims]

We are sadly now discussing her final film to date for now, 2012's Vamps.

[Griffin Newman]

I suppose she could make another one. She's held 70 years old. It's not impossible.

[David Sims]

She can make another one. She speaks of wanting to make more movies, but. Yes. And these final two films are very much anti blink checks. They are movies where you're feeling the tension of the checks being pulled back.

[Griffin Newman]

Someone write her a check.

[David Sims]

Right? And unlike I could never be your woman where you're like, this movie is stuck in a perpetual fit of mania.

[Griffin Newman]

A little compromised. Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

Another one I'm glad I watched earlier this week, but it did make me feel.

[David Sims]

You did watch it. Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a little like you feel a little nauseous. It's a little like motion sick.

[David Sims]

This has the bittersweet thing where you watch it and you're like the. This should be one of her masterpieces. You can kind of see it pretty clearly.

[Griffin Newman]

Introduce our guest.

[David Sims]

Our guest today who has Done several power moves that we're gonna get into since entering the studio. It's the great Caroline Framke. First time in far too long.

[Griffin Newman]

It needs to be said.

[Caroline Framke]

Six years.

[Griffin Newman]

Caroline, here is an LCD game.

[David Sims]

Do you remember these?

[Caroline Framke]

I do. Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you ever have these flicker?

[David Sims]

Oh, yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

I clearly did not know the technical names of any of them.

[David Sims]

It was like a still image that you basically. You could move left or right.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Little bits of it would light up depending on where you wanted the guy to be.

[David Sims]

It was kind of the electronic version of the water ring game, and it was that primitive.

[Griffin Newman]

Do you remember the Battletoads? Because I feel like the Battletoads were pretty Ben coated.

[Ben Hosley]

I mean, that's a really good game.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. It's very hard.

[David Sims]

It is.

[Caroline Framke]

Are they toads that battle?

[Griffin Newman]

It's truly just them ripping off.

[David Sims]

They're cool guys. They have sunglasses. Their names are Rash Zit.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. I think we've talked about this before, because I remember us going through their gross names. I'll look them up. Their names, of course, are. Come on. Now. They have to defeat the Dark Queen. We know that. I feel like they fight Rash Zits with a Z. Two Z's and pimple.

[David Sims]

Yeah, there we go. They're gross.

[Caroline Framke]

Why are they bodily?

[Griffin Newman]

Because, like, that was cool.

[David Sims]

You know, it's like, yeah, boys like gross things, like mutated animals.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

That are absorbing the vibes of other cultures.

[Caroline Framke]

I think they fought pigs. Are pigs the natural enemy of frogs?

[David Sims]

I don't. People go to pigs a lot, right? Like Minecraft and Angry Birds both go, we got to take down the pigs.

[Caroline Framke]

Pigs who are, I think, quite nice and smart.

[David Sims]

And smart.

[Griffin Newman]

I would say the Minecraft movie using the piglins is actually a swerve. Like, those are not the traditional Minecraft villains. They're. They were introduced a little later.

[David Sims]

Pause for one second because Ruda has called me twice. Oh, boy.

[Griffin Newman]

What's up with Ruda?

[David Sims]

Dinner rescheduled. It was just. She was doing with an urgency that is not her usual behavior. Unless there's a health problem.

[Caroline Framke]

No. Twice in a row.

[Griffin Newman]

Griffin's grandmother is so old that any phone call, I think, understandably, from Griffin is like, okay, what's.

[David Sims]

What's.

[Caroline Framke]

My grandma calls once.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

Yes, we can keep that in now.

[Caroline Framke]

Sure.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

She is a sort of background character on the show.

[David Sims]

Absolutely. Yeah. Anyway, big announcement. Exclusy. I will be getting dinner with her sometime next week. Well, it's now in flux. There was a Monday plan that I've now Kicked to post record.

[Griffin Newman]

Where does she like to go? And of course you don't have to tell me or we can beep it out. But like does she have a spot?

[David Sims]

Yeah. She lives on the Upper east side.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And she is of an advanced age.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And her favorite place or whatever. Less than a block and a half.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, right.

[David Sims]

Of which there are a couple.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. I wish I had a place. I mean I do obviously have restaurants I go to or whatever.

[Ben Hosley]

The diner you were just talking about, that feels like your place.

[Griffin Newman]

No, but imagine the level of like.

[Caroline Framke]

If the diner were downstairs.

[Griffin Newman]

Well. Or more like I walk in and be like, David, your table.

[Ben Hosley]

You want like a cheers kind of like.

[David Sims]

I mean we were just talking.

[Griffin Newman]

The only place I have that is my local bagel place where they do know my name.

[Caroline Framke]

I have that with an Italian restaurant in parks.

[Griffin Newman]

I know you do. Lovely.

[Caroline Framke]

I talk about it all the time because it truly took a lot of work and a lot of money to get there.

[David Sims]

I. I'm not going to name it because we're. But it's a restaurant. We were just talking about where they do know my order. Now.

[Griffin Newman]

That's pretty cool.

[Caroline Framke]

See, that's nice.

[David Sims]

And I'm not gonna name it because it's a bit of a hot spot and it is one of the places where I get recognized by blankies most consistently.

[Ben Hosley]

Dave and Buster's.

[David Sims]

Correct. There we go. They know my order.

[Griffin Newman]

And your order is what, like Atomic.

[David Sims]

Wings nuclear level with 8, 000 credits.

[Griffin Newman]

Caroline and I went to Dave and Buster's.

[David Sims]

I know you and Caroline have been doing well because a lot of very.

[Griffin Newman]

Griff coated 13 year olds together like.

[David Sims]

Chicken fingers and playing video games and.

[Caroline Framke]

We did not get. No, we didn't, but we should have.

[Griffin Newman]

But you went to dnb because I. Well, you can tell the story.

[David Sims]

I mean, yeah, we.

[Caroline Framke]

We got lunch, we got a hot dog. You had a weird amount of time before. You had kind of stacked a bunch of stuff. Cuz now you're like out in the world more. We're very excited. You know the twins are sleep training or like they're sleep train. Oh, they're sleep trained now. See that was not the case before, but he was out in the world. He was like, I'm stacking like five things.

[David Sims]

They're getting a little lazy now. They got to get their asses out of bed.

[Caroline Framke]

They are trained to sleep. So he had like an extra hour, hour and a half before he headed to a movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Weird Gap.

[Caroline Framke]

And he just goes. He was like, I Just wish there was. It was heart eyes.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, yeah. That's why Hard eyes of Andrew.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, it was hard eyes.

[David Sims]

Josh Ruben, passing future guest.

[Griffin Newman]

Absolutely great movie. I really enjoyed.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah. And so he was like, I just wish there were, like, an arcade or something. I was like, david, there's a Dave and Busters.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, but that is the weird thing that I expressed that thought. A thought I had not was in that brain.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And then that you were like, well, there is one.

[Caroline Framke]

And I'd never been. You'd never been?

[Griffin Newman]

No. And we wandered in there, and I would say that the midday Dave and Busters wasn't really ready to help us.

[Caroline Framke]

No, it's not.

[Griffin Newman]

Like we walked in there and someone was like, and here's where you get your card. And here's how everything works. We kind of had to trial and error.

[David Sims]

That's what I like about Dave and Buster's is you. You have to take care of your own ass.

[Caroline Framke]

See, we did not know that. We walked in. I was like, there is no one here. There were maybe three groups of two children who were.

[David Sims]

This is what makes D and B different. Chuck E. Cheese, though, they're not gonna hold your hand. This place isn't for babies.

[Caroline Framke]

Around for an embarrassingly long time trying to find anyone or where do we get the card? Do we download the app? Whatever. And then we look up and there's like a giant here.

[Griffin Newman]

But it's.

[David Sims]

But also there are thousand giant flashing signs.

[Griffin Newman]

There's a lot of flashing things that.

[Caroline Framke]

Hits the planet in a way that I enjoyed. But it was overwhelming.

[Griffin Newman]

The thing we.

[Caroline Framke]

There was no one there.

[Griffin Newman]

The only thing we did that I regret no one was there is that I was like you. We both were kind of like, well, we should play one of the gun games.

[David Sims]

The only thing you did that you regret was, like, leaving.

[Caroline Framke]

I wish I were still there. Still be there.

[Griffin Newman]

And we're like, you know, we're looking at your House of the Deads, and you're like, oh, God, it's all so intense. And then. So there was a Tomb Raider one. And I was like, okay, Tomb Raider is kind of a slightly more. And we start playing it, and then they're like, you're being attacked by wolves.

[Caroline Framke]

Kill the wolves.

[Griffin Newman]

So it's just. Carolyn's a dog owner. We're shooting so many dogs essentially, just like Caroline kill.

[David Sims]

Like, why?

[Caroline Framke]

No, like, truly almost crying. I'm like, I'm an insane dog owner. I have my dog now.

[David Sims]

And you were overwhelmed by it.

[Griffin Newman]

It was also overwhelming just because they Were trying to get us.

[Caroline Framke]

They were. They were jumping.

[Griffin Newman]

Does put you right on a swivel, though.

[Caroline Framke]

I can't. Like, that was never. I didn't go to many arcades. We talked about how he went to arcades as a teen. I didn't really do that. And definitely if I did, my game was not shooting. I feel like it was, you know, I smoked him on basketball. Say that much. And Sims is solidly taller than me. So let us all.

[David Sims]

This is cool. This is cool. And I liked your good lore.

[Griffin Newman]

It was. It was a good time. And then we have gone bowling since because we were like, okay. Casting around for what are other things I did before I could Dr.

[David Sims]

Drink. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, like teen activity.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Collection together. And didn't invite me.

[Griffin Newman]

What is. Is there a third. Is there a third thing in the holy Trinity?

[Caroline Framke]

Well, for me. And I feel like Ben will stand as a Jersey. Well, I did actually get my ear pierced like a month ago randomly after I got a great haircut. And I was like, I think I'm gonna live forever. Oh, my God.

[David Sims]

You were feeling vamped up.

[Caroline Framke]

I was feeling vamped up. I did not think it through, I'll tell you that much. And I got like the upper thing. And then they were like, you're gonna need a sleep pillow. And I was like, what? I'm gon pillow. I did not get the pillow. It's like a donut. If you look up, like, I get it.

[Griffin Newman]

I get it to stop it.

[Caroline Framke]

There are some weird piercing pillows. It looks like other stuff, but I'm a. I sleep on my back, so it's not that big an issue. But it was like I have to think about things in a way I was not anticipating. But yeah, I did get my ears pierced. I'll get the other one pierced if you want to do that. But I do feel like the thing I would. My holy trinity in terms of teen activities. It would either be a mall or a diner. Because I grew up in Jersey.

[Ben Hosley]

Hell yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

A diner. Well, and we've been to many a diner.

[Caroline Framke]

Well, not the late night diner. I didn't go to breakfast at diners. I did breakfast at night.

[Griffin Newman]

I get no I.

[Caroline Framke]

What else is open?

[Griffin Newman]

That's teen. Very teen. We got to end up at Denny's or whatever because we can't go to a bar. Right.

[Caroline Framke]

The one like 24 hour place in my town. Besides for. I don't think the diner was 24 hours in my immediate town was a 24 hour combination. Baskin Robbins, Dunkin Donuts. So you can stay up, eat some ice cream, feel sick.

[Griffin Newman]

Where would you go back If Caroline.

[David Sims]

Successfully convinces David to get an ear piercing and then go to a 24 hour chain restaurant afterwards? That feels like he's then stepping in on your territory. He should do with you a little bit.

[Caroline Framke]

Wow, I'm really, I'm really taking over. I'm just encroaching the whole thing. That wasn't even one of my power moves.

[David Sims]

You're not doing anything wrong. The problem is if Ben or I suggested these activities. What are you guys talking about? You're insane. I'd never do that.

[Griffin Newman]

A lot of people say a lot of things about me. That's all I'll say. But Fran and I were briefly gonna get crazy. Our nipples pierced for the dragon tattoo episode. We were like, we're gonna go full Lisbeth.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

But then we, you know, whatever. We didn't get our act together. Like that was going to be complicated.

[Caroline Framke]

That wasn't. Number one.

[Griffin Newman]

Would have been pretty funny.

[David Sims]

Maybe you wouldn't want the eight if you had two metal studs in your chest.

[Griffin Newman]

I think I'd want it more. What were you gonna say?

[Ben Hosley]

Well, to answer your question, what did.

[Griffin Newman]

I do your diner or. Yeah, sure. What was your.

[Ben Hosley]

Yeah, I mean pretty much anywhere where you could loiter in the middle of the night.

[Griffin Newman]

You loiter?

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Teenage Ben. Yep. Loitering. Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

Crime loiter. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Reading a big leather bound book. Public parks, playground, cozy corner playgrounds.

[Ben Hosley]

But even just gas station, parking lot.

[Caroline Framke]

Oh, sure.

[Ben Hosley]

You know, go to the. Yeah, exactly. Go to the convenience store. Those are open 24 hours. We had a 24 hour diner near my town where I grew up called. We would go tick tock.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, classic.

[Caroline Framke]

Oh yeah.

[David Sims]

Perfect. Yeah, perfect.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, I see it here.

[Caroline Framke]

I feel like, you know, in keeping with sort of keeping with this episode, I feel like I have. As I have aged, I am looking back at like what did I like to do before? My default was going out to a.

[David Sims]

Restaurant or going to a bar.

[Caroline Framke]

Like are there other activities? I'm sure there are. You know, and I feel like as a teen you have to find those other things.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. We do funny stage.

[Caroline Framke]

We've done these things. You and I have done these teen things in like the smack middle of the day. Yeah, because that's when.

[Griffin Newman]

It's kind of when I'm doing people.

[Caroline Framke]

There and that's when you're doing stuff. But I do feel like, you know, doing that stuff later at night.

[Griffin Newman]

But I would.

[Caroline Framke]

That's where you could Go.

[Griffin Newman]

I would often do it in the day as a teen. I feel like. Right. It was kind of like, how do I feel this weekend day?

[David Sims]

And then, well, movies.

[Griffin Newman]

But if you're movies, video games, going to the park.

[Caroline Framke]

The park is nice. What's wrong with the park?

[Griffin Newman]

I don't know. When I was 14, my guess is I was sort of like, I.

[Caroline Framke]

You're. You're grimy London park.

[Griffin Newman]

So instead I would go to Rowan's, which was a bowling alley and an arcade. And that is a very, very cherished spot in my childhood. And it had a bar, and I could order food at the bar. And they had something called the combo platter for £5. It was like chicken fingers, fries, and onion rings, all one big plate.

[Ben Hosley]

All the food groups we covered the.

[David Sims]

Thing, the triangle, vegetables, starch, protein, the full pyramid. Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

By the way, I did briefly consider punishing you for dangling clueless in front of me by bringing back. Oh, I didn't know you grew up in England.

[David Sims]

Blah.

[Caroline Framke]

And I did.

[Griffin Newman]

You don't understand.

[Caroline Framke]

But I didn't want to do that.

[Griffin Newman]

Too complicated.

[Caroline Framke]

No, no, no. I know. So I briefly was like, I know. It's been retired. And I was like, I'm gonna un forcibly. And then I watched I can never be your woman. And I was like, if there were any episode to do it on, that be the one. So never mind it.

[David Sims]

We should have done it.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a heavy Brit.

[Caroline Framke]

I was like, I just. And I tried. I was like, I don't think it's funny. I think I just. I think I had a mean moment. I was like, I just want to see him squirm. And I was like, let's not do that.

[David Sims]

You even told me at David's birthday that you wanted my help doing a bit to torture him.

[Caroline Framke]

And then I thought about, like, what that would actually look like and the conversation I'd have with you to make that happen. I was like, you know what the.

[David Sims]

Should have been for? I should never be your woman. It should have been arguing that David grew up in California.

[Caroline Framke]

Sure.

[David Sims]

Being like, no, no, you're. That was Los Angeles.

[Caroline Framke]

No.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, of course. Sunny. So sunny. The sun.

[David Sims]

Remember, you were surrounded by people with perfect Californian accents.

[Griffin Newman]

Hello.

[Caroline Framke]

I do respect the David Mitchell Diego.

[David Sims]

I just got from the beach.

[Griffin Newman]

David Mitchell, right. Is the one who's like, I'm not doing it. Like, it's not. You don't want to hear what that is.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah. Okay, we're not gonna do that.

[David Sims]

I want to step back and doing a little Table setting here, because you've alluded to this. But all this conversation, by the way, was relevant because this is a movie about, like, do you want to stay young forever?

[Griffin Newman]

Right. What is it to be eternally a certain age?

[David Sims]

Right. Caroline, you had two blockbuster appearances on this podcast covering two huge movies.

[Caroline Framke]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Showgirls. A big episode, a big film.

[Caroline Framke]

I. I feel like I'm really glad I didn't think that one. I didn't overthink that one, because the second I left, I was like, I feel like that was a big movie.

[David Sims]

This is what you said at David's birthday. You said, like, I never would get an episode like that today. And I didn't even realize how big it was until I left. And we're like, Caroline, every time we put a new miniseries on the schedule, I say to David, what about Frankie? We haven't had Frankie on in too long. And your response is often, I don't want to do something if I don't feel strongly about it. I'm not gonna take a slot for someone who would care more about something else. Which I've always thought is very respectable. But you did that in Kiki. But I have two great movies.

[Griffin Newman]

Throwing you a lot of options.

[Caroline Framke]

He has thrown me options.

[Griffin Newman]

And you've usually kind of been like, David Lynch. I don't know that I. You know, I'm engaged enough with that to be, you know, and then, yeah, someone like that to me is like.

[David Sims]

I don't want to take it away from someone who really wants.

[Caroline Framke]

Right. I mean, you know, I feel like thoughtful of you. Yeah. Like, there's something. I feel like there would be something interesting about doing, like, if I were to do a David lynch, it'd be coming from the perspective of I've never fully engaged with this work in a way that maybe I wanted to and that would be different. But I'm like. But he's. There's so much to say about it from a perspective of people who know and love him. I have so many lynch obsessives in my life that I was like, I can't. I can't even do that to them. People who would. Who aren't even in contention to be on the.

[David Sims]

Just people to people. We put heck, early on the spreadsheet, I go, this feels like a Framke moment, right? David has some offline conversation with you that I'm not part of, and then you get slotted in for Vamps. And it was like, that sort of makes sense. That feels like a good fit.

[Griffin Newman]

And you'd seen it.

[Caroline Framke]

Well, that was the thing, is that.

[David Sims]

He said, you didn't know that.

[Caroline Framke]

You didn't. Okay, so you didn't know that. All right, I'll keep going.

[David Sims]

No, you jump in with what you were gonna say.

[Caroline Framke]

Well, it's just he asked me like, oh, do you have any strong feelings about vamps? And I was like, oh, yeah. I mean, I saw it and I liked it. And he was like, so you saw it?

[David Sims]

Like, that was already.

[Griffin Newman]

I was like, oh.

[Caroline Framke]

And I was like, yeah. And I. I guess I did not at that time know the full lore of just how limited this one theater release was.

[David Sims]

We will get to.

[Caroline Framke]

We will get to how. You know how I did see. But I was like, oh, yeah. And I saw it. And he was like, okay, so did you like it? And I said, yes. And he said, okay, great, you're doing that. And I said, fine.

[David Sims]

I think we knew when we committed to the series that it would be harder to book her final two films.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

In particular that didn't get real releases. And that you're like, you know, as much as heckerling is serious, there aren't a lot of heckerling of tourists out there who, like, are like, well, of course I've watched every one of her films. Most people don't know these two movies ever happened, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

So when we get to positions like this, there's often this thing of like, look, we can ask a friend of ours who's a good guest to watch it cold for the first time, but it's always better if we know someone who actually has seen it previously and has any feeling about it. Right. Where you're not just rolling the dice of someone coming in and being like, it was fine. I mean, right? There's love it or hate it, it's better if there's some feeling in history.

[Griffin Newman]

There's certain things like, I could never be your woman. Well, honestly, that movie turned out to be a lot weirder than I thought it was. But initially I was sort of like, at least it's not a big ask of an. Of a guest of like, hey, watch this 90 minute movie with Paul Ruddnet. Like, you'll have an.

[Caroline Framke]

You did ask me if I would be interested between the two.

[David Sims]

I would rather we kept asking people, hey, here's the heckerling list. But if you have any relationship to loser, I could never be your woman on vamps, please let us know.

[Griffin Newman]

Whereas there are certain movies, I feel like, where it's like you're making a, you know, a more consequential ask of someone to watch some heavy movie that nobody. I don't know. Like, it hasn't come up in a while because we've been doing all these big shots, but these have been.

[David Sims]

Right. Like, true kind of movies that don't exist. So David does not relay to me that you had seen the film. I thought you were doing us a mitzvah. Right. That you were like, I like vampires. I like comedies. It feels like a fun thing to watch for the first time. Then we have another past guest, hopefully future guest, reach out to us from out of town. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Who doesn't live here anymore.

[David Sims]

And was like, I might be in town in this exact window. Is there anything you guys could throw at me? And we said, have you seen I could never be your woman? And her response was, no, but I love vamps. And I was like, here's someone who's passionate about vamps. Do we bump Framke off of vamps? Because I thought you were just doing us a solid, replacing it with passion. Right. So then we bump you. David offers Clueless.

[Caroline Framke]

And I was like, all right. I. I truly was like, are you sure? Are you sure? Are you sure you're not gonna get someone for Clueless?

[David Sims]

Consolation prize. Trade up. Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

And I truly was, like, a little stressed about it because I was, like, clueless. Clueless. But I will do it. Like, what am I going to say no to Clueless? Like, I'm not going to say no to Clueless.

[David Sims]

And then this other person's and.

[Caroline Framke]

And that now it's there.

[David Sims]

Well, then David also relates to me. Framps is kind of bummed that she's not doing vamp, so I'm going to offer her clueless. And I was like, I didn't realize she actually liked it.

[Caroline Framke]

Sure, sure, sure.

[David Sims]

Right. Then the other person's travel plans got changed. Was like, I probably won't be here until the fall. And I was like, we got it. We kind of got to move Frankie back to vamps, because no one else will want to do vamps.

[Caroline Framke]

And I believe David's text to me was, caroline, I am on my knees begging you to do vamps a little bit.

[David Sims]

A little bit.

[Caroline Framke]

No, that's literally what you said.

[David Sims]

A lot of it.

[Caroline Framke]

And I was like, all right, so who do you have?

[David Sims]

We are very appreciative.

[Caroline Framke]

Oh, no, it's fine. And honestly, frankly, I think it did work out. I have, I think, a lot more specific stuff to say about vamps. And also, it is only spiritually correct. That blonde did Clueless. It's just right. Yeah, it's just right. It's not the first time a blonde has taken my thing and it won't be the last.

[David Sims]

And dare I say it, a raven haired snarkster doing vamps.

[Caroline Framke]

Thank you so much.

[Griffin Newman]

True, true.

[Caroline Framke]

It is aesthetic. I don't have my summer tan yet. I'm not, I'm not Kristen Ritter.

[Griffin Newman]

It's. I mean, May is just upon us. The tanning opportunities are just beginning.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

Now before we dig into the movie proper, I just want to give you a shout out beyond just you doing us a big solid in this crazy musical chairs of booking for this season. I walk in, you are finishing up a caricature of your own face and taping it to the front of your desk because you're jealous that you don't have a cartoon avatar. I say that.

[Griffin Newman]

She's jealous.

[Caroline Framke]

I mean I was.

[David Sims]

It's fine. You go, you go. That's much better now. And then you immediately say now I need shit on my desk to compete with me. Well, I didn't realize there were too much shit on my desk.

[Griffin Newman]

In general.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Caroline Framke]

I have not been to the studio yet. Last time I was on the show was six years ago for Kiki's delivery service.

[Griffin Newman]

It was at the old AudioBoom studio.

[Caroline Framke]

And I walked in. Ben was the only one here. I beat both of you. Which is again. No, I'm. I'm thrilled because I'm never the first anywhere as a mean shit.

[Ben Hosley]

I walked in those. I. I was not crying though. No, this time you were not dry eyed.

[David Sims]

But you very quickly established a good desk. Spread the kind of chaos.

[Caroline Framke]

I'm glad I had the bag I did today because I had a lot of stuff in it.

[David Sims]

Three beverages, notebook, novel.

[Caroline Framke]

Yep.

[David Sims]

And then vape.

[Caroline Framke]

No, that was actually lipstick, actually. And this is not a novel. This is Maeve Brennan's the Long Winded lady, which is anecdotes from New York City and actually feels very goody Rutherford in that way.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Caroline Framke]

But she's just like.

[David Sims]

It's lipstick.

[Caroline Framke]

Oh yeah. It's like. Okay. It's like a got.

[David Sims]

It's one of those. Okay.

[Caroline Framke]

And then I had an Omer Playbill.

[David Sims]

Yep.

[Caroline Framke]

I think this might. It's either. I think this is the tightest one. I saw both. And then I glow in the dark. Temp tattoos.

[David Sims]

You gave three Beetlejuice plushies and a Poppy from Trolls.

[Caroline Framke]

Yep. And then I have an assortment of Sour Patch Lemonade. Flavor or sustenance?

[David Sims]

We're doing great. Yeah, no, I'm.

[Caroline Framke]

I'm in it for the long haul. Here we go.

[David Sims]

Ben, why did this movie put you in a weird mood?

[Ben Hosley]

I don't know. There's the quality.

[Griffin Newman]

The sort of general, like, I'm eating a generic brand versus the, you know, this is the RC Cola.

[Ben Hosley]

It's a little cw.

[David Sims]

Sure, right?

[Ben Hosley]

A little bit.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

It takes you back to that time of the aughts.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, happy time for you.

[David Sims]

A chaotic time.

[Ben Hosley]

A chaotic time.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

I would say I was living my life in a certain way where I don't really remember much at that time.

[Griffin Newman]

Quarter mile at a time, you know.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah. David?

[David Sims]

Yes. I have this wild take. Imho, summer is the season of doing things.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

And enjoyment.

[Griffin Newman]

I love to enjoy things.

[David Sims]

That is what summer is for, enjoying things and doing them.

[Griffin Newman]

I do love to enjoy and do things. I love to do things that I really like. If I enjoy the things I do.

[David Sims]

Well, here's the thing I want to recommend that you can do and enjoy doing. Making meals with hellofresh.

[Griffin Newman]

I honestly, you're being a silly fella.

[David Sims]

I am.

[Griffin Newman]

But it is very satisfying to make a meal, serve it to people and have them enjoy it. Of course. Hellofresh. That stuff is easy.

[David Sims]

And you say I'm being silly, but I do want to start to push the narrative that maybe instead of like, brat, summer, hot girl summer. This is doing things and enjoying them Summer.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. This is doing things and enjoying them Summer.

[David Sims]

And hellofresh is a perfect way to kick off that spirit. David, what you been cooking up lately for summer?

[Griffin Newman]

Maybe you want something that's a little less of a, you know, standing over a pot.

[David Sims]

Exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

How about some sticky ponzu salmon rice bowls?

[David Sims]

Here's what I like about the salmon rice bowl. It's not going to fall out of my hands.

[Griffin Newman]

Sticky ponzu salmon rice bowls. I love ponzu. More ponzu in my life these days. Love bowls than ever before. Or what about this? A one pot creamy paprika chicken cavatappi. I love a one pot meal, Griff.

[David Sims]

The exact number of pots I'm looking exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

And you're putting all this stuff together and you're like, is this going to work? And then suddenly eat that magic moment when you're stirring and you're like, wait, this looks like a meal.

[David Sims]

Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, this was a bunch of stuff before and now this looks like something I want to put in my mouth.

[David Sims]

I know that feeling and that experience.

[Griffin Newman]

And hellofresh is really good at that, at putting together these quick, you know, home cooked meals. That are actually like fun and delicious, not just like, you know, food to put in your mouth.

[David Sims]

You get to have fun and enjoy doing the things.

[Griffin Newman]

They use high quality ingredients, seasonal fresh produce, proteins that travel from farm to doorstep. And they got easy to follow recipe cards. And yeah, you can even get the simple kind of heat them and eat them options if that's the, you know, that's the convenience you're looking for.

[David Sims]

That's a little more my temperature.

[Griffin Newman]

So you can make your summer enjoyable and delicious by signing up for [e-mail] Check 10fm and then get 10 free meals with a free item for life. That's hellofresh.com Check 10fm. 10fm.

[David Sims]

10 free meals for 10 free meals.

[Griffin Newman]

And a free item in every box. Hellofresh.com Check 10FM. One per box with an active subscription. Free meals are applied as a discount on the first box. New subscribers only. Varies by plan.

[David Sims]

What do you call this era? This is like post indie sleaze.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Has anyone named this? What's happening in the early 2000 and tens core?

[Caroline Framke]

I guess it's not. Not indie sleeves.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like the recession era, like, is the problem. It's kind of just like everyone's a little bummed down. Yeah.

[David Sims]

I feel like this kind of has to be post indie sleaze. Like I think no one has no for sure earmarked it, but I think some transition has happened that still owes.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Something to indie sleaze.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

I don't think it's been defined.

[David Sims]

Really is a good stance.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Right. What's the music people are listening to in 2012?

[David Sims]

I mean, I do Drake.

[Griffin Newman]

Jesus. Yeah, let's really junk that here in the bin.

[David Sims]

It does weirdly feel like Kristen Ritter is the perfect ultimate avatar of early 2010s New York. Not just because she was the Bee.

[Caroline Framke]

The Bee. See, we can talk about the Bee. This was a great episode.

[David Sims]

That show exists because it was just like she's embodying something that we gotta put on television.

[Caroline Framke]

No one like, she really wears a chunky necklace. Well, even though she's got, you know.

[David Sims]

She'S quite a skinny frame.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, yeah. But the jet, the necklaces still don't wear her. She likes a slightly puffed shoulder. We had a lot of like slightly puffed shoulders. So.

[Griffin Newman]

The Bee. We met the Bee. We met the Bee in 2012.

[David Sims]

The year amps came out the apartment.

[Caroline Framke]

23 and don't trust her.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Don't you trust.

[David Sims]

And I've told this story before. But I lived in a building in apartment 22 at that time. And I kept filling out forms. No, I truly. When I had to fill out my address, I kept thinking like, I live in apartment 23. Right. And I couldn't remember if it was me or the Bee. And mail kept getting delivered to my next door neighbor again.

[Caroline Framke]

Where?

[David Sims]

And they were like, he filled it out for 23 again.

[Caroline Framke]

Oh, wow.

[David Sims]

Yeah, that's true story.

[Griffin Newman]

The Bee is supposed to be. She's kind of. She's kind of coming off her indie sleep, you know, she's like a party girl who's sort of like, do I need to stop?

[David Sims]

Is this.

[Caroline Framke]

Oh, no, no, no, no. The Bee loves her lifestyle. That's the whole thing is she does not grow right.

[Griffin Newman]

She's no good because she's the bee.

[Caroline Framke]

She's the beat. Like, she, she. She's fond of the people. She's fond of her best friend, James Vanderbeek playing James Vanderbeek.

[Griffin Newman]

And it also was plausible that she'd be friends with, you know, kind of post, post, post Dawson's Creek James Van.

[Caroline Framke]

I mean, he's so good on that show. It's such a funny bit.

[David Sims]

And it was Eric Andre and Dream a Walker.

[Griffin Newman]

Eric Andre, Dream of Walker, was the nice girl, right?

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah. She was the nice girl who moved in as the roommate who won't be.

[Griffin Newman]

She won't be bead.

[Caroline Framke]

She won't be beat. And all the other roommates have been beat. So the Bee does begrudgingly respect her.

[Griffin Newman]

Apparently Eric Andre's character was meek.

[David Sims]

He was name or the personality?

[Griffin Newman]

No, the personality. I'm like, eric Andre seems bad because.

[Caroline Framke]

He was like, Dream of Walker's I'm trying. Co worker at Starbucks, basically.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Caroline Framke]

And he, like, liked her.

[David Sims]

He was an awkward guy, but it.

[Caroline Framke]

Was weird casting knowing what Eric Andre is and can do. And I don't think they ever really got a chance to let him do that. It also aired completely out of order. So just like, vamps. It got a very weird release situation and it never really. Yeah, but the second season aired completely out of order.

[David Sims]

Okay, Right.

[Griffin Newman]

The second season got that.

[Caroline Framke]

I think it's still out of order on Hulu.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, you do have to, like, treatment where they were like.

[Caroline Framke]

But there were some plot. Like, there wasn't a ton of, like, overarching plot, but enough where you're like, wait, what is this?

[Griffin Newman]

Like, I mean, Happy Endings had the same experience.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, right. ABC was just always a little bit like, I feel like, what, you like these.

[Caroline Framke]

I liked Happy Endings. I feel like I said this. You like the way a lot of people feel about happy endings and being. They were. You know, a lot of people were very devastated by Happy Ending's ending. I was sad, but I was so much sadder about the Bee.

[David Sims]

Kristen Britter was on her kind of version of a Zooey Deschanel track, where she kept playing, like, best friends and being like, man, she's really good with, like, the, like, off the shoulder, like, one line responses, the sort of side snark. And then they clearly were like, can we make her a lead? And don't trust. The Bee was like, part of that project, but the Bee and.

[Caroline Framke]

But the fact that the Bee didn't change is maybe what made people not totally get with it. They were like, but she's supposed to grow and change. And she was like, I don't have any interest in one.

[David Sims]

She wasn't really the protagonist of the show. She was the main character, right?

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

But this thing I think about all the time with her. I think she had several children and kind of like disappeared for a bunch of years. And now, of course, was in Sonic 3 and seems to be working more. But for someone who was so omnipresent, really, in, like, the first half of the 2010s.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah. Because it was that. It was Jessica Jones.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

She's so great in Jessica Jones.

[Caroline Framke]

She's great.

[David Sims]

She's great.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Jessica Jones.

[Griffin Newman]

Kind of season one of Jessica Jones. Such an unambiguous success in an era of superhero TV that is largely not so immediately different.

[Caroline Framke]

So.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[Caroline Framke]

Interesting. And the character is so scary.

[David Sims]

So kind of the only one of those Netflix seasons that has, like.

[Griffin Newman]

Exactly. I don't remember much about the other two seasons.

[Caroline Framke]

No. I kind of forgot there were there two seasons that I'm sure I watched and reviewed them all.

[Ben Hosley]

I don't know, guys. Iron fists.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, that guy did have Fist of Iron and it stuck with me. I remember every part.

[Caroline Framke]

It was like, it was just Jones and it was Daredevil and those. And now Daredevil's back. But where's Jessica Jones?

[Griffin Newman]

In my head, I was surprised she.

[Caroline Framke]

Wasn'T on it ever.

[Griffin Newman]

She. My guess is they're waiting to do something cool with it that's an alternative.

[David Sims]

Like, casting that everyone kind of agrees with unambiguously, like, worked.

[Griffin Newman]

It did work. Which when it was announced, I was completely like, not. That's not how I imagine that character. Yeah. But I like the character a lot in comics.

[David Sims]

Here's what I was going to say, I have a very vivid memory of this. And I think about this way too often. She does don't trust the bee. And it was just sort of like, okay, this lasted two seasons and it made it to air, but it didn't quite work. And it felt like all the networks were like, there's probably a hit show starring Kristen Ritter, and we want to solve what it is. She feels like she should be the lead of a hit show. And these are the final years of, like, the traditional pilot system.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's get you a show right, where.

[David Sims]

Like, every January, before they start auditioning, the networks all start, like, competing with each other. The pile of spec scripts that they have acquired being like, if we can attach a big name to this, this is a GoPilot. And someone like Krysten Ritter, who was seen as, like, hot, you know, and had, like, value and was ready to be the star of a TV show, they're all sending her their, like, 20 best scripts and being like, do you like any of these? And for, I want to say, three years in a row, Krysten Ritter signed on straight offer, first position, big pilot show that didn't go. And I would. I was stuck in these fucking pilot system runners every year and being like, well, this script's really good, and it's got Kristen Ritter. This show's definitely gonna happen.

[Caroline Framke]

Do you remember what any of them were about?

[David Sims]

One of them, I believe, was written by our friend Leslie Hedland. That was an adaptation of her play Assistance.

[Caroline Framke]

Oh, yes, yes, I remember that.

[David Sims]

Sort of loosely fictionalized her nightmare experiences working at the Weinstein Company.

[Caroline Framke]

Right. Yes.

[David Sims]

And Alfred Molina was going to play the Weinstein analog.

[Caroline Framke]

Oh, my God.

[David Sims]

And was a really good dart.

[Caroline Framke]

Yes. Let's clarify.

[David Sims]

There was another one that was like, I want to say, a 60s NASA space race show. And there's one other one I'm forgetting, but in that era, it's like someone like Krysten Ritter has to make a big choice every January of which pilot she's attaching herself to, and yet it just might not get picked up. And if that's the case, everyone basically goes, cool, we'll see you in a year.

[Caroline Framke]

Well, the interesting thing about her, too, is that when you mentioned those two things and then mentioning the bee vamps, that kind of stuff, her taste is, you know, a little bit more offbeat than I feel like she might get credit for. It's the kind of thing, too. When I was watching this and when I watched I Can Never Be a Woman for the first time, And I was kind of thinking about all the heckling stuff just to get myself in the state of mind. I was like, oh, Heckerling's a fucking weirdo too. She is.

[David Sims]

It's a good, complimentary.

[Griffin Newman]

She is a little goth weirdo herself.

[Caroline Framke]

Right. And like, you know, she like choices like, you know, Ullman is Mother Earth, that kind of thing where you're like, what are we doing here? That's a choice.

[Griffin Newman]

I might have advised her on her.

[Caroline Framke]

Royal vizier, but it's a strong choice nonetheless. And it's the kind of thing that it seems like Kristen Ritter really responds to is this kind of stuff where it's slightly off. And I'm not surprised that the pilots she chose then did not catch on.

[David Sims]

They were all good. I remember every year being like, well, this is the best script this year. And being astounded when it wouldn't get picked up for who knows what reason. I even think one of them got picked up and then like, unpicked up at some point.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah. I feel like probably especially knowing Leslie's, you know.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

What the plays are like. And then what happened? I mean, she. She did Bachelorette. She managed to make that right. Pretty vicious, but not as vicious, that kind of thing.

[David Sims]

I think it was trying to do this.

[Caroline Framke]

I'm sure she got network notes to death.

[David Sims]

Yes. But like the. The old rigid pilot system, network TV model at a time where people were still kind of wary of going to cable or going to streaming. And also the money was so fucking good. If you could get on a hit show. There was no off cycle. That was like the calendar of which the thing happened. And if you picked the wrong thing in the spring, you were fucked until the next year. Right. And in between, it's like Kristen Ritter's like, okay, so I do I, like, play X's snarky best friend again in a Paramount movie? Or do I play, like, the lead in a, like, a lower budget Amy Heckerling movie? And the next year, hopefully I get another shot at tv.

[Caroline Framke]

And.

[David Sims]

And then it felt like she did the Jessica Jones move at the moment where it was like, yeah, streaming does seem to be the place to go. And if you're playing a Marvel character that feels like you're set for your life and the first season totally worked. And then like the entire Marvel Netflix experience, like, dissipates and it's. Yeah, there's just like seven year run of interesting energy from Krysten Ritter that then has kind of like talking about.

[Griffin Newman]

Did you not hear the echoes?

[David Sims]

Oh, that was a Marvel spotlight, wasn't it?

[Caroline Framke]

No, it was not.

[Griffin Newman]

What if Orphan Black had an echo? Orphan Black echo. She on that or she was the star of it.

[David Sims]

Has that already come and gone? Yeah, of course.

[Caroline Framke]

What if Orphan Check.

[Griffin Newman]

You were like, you guys, echo tonight. You guys hear the echo.

[Caroline Framke]

What An Orphan Black did not have. Tatiana. Tatiana Maslani was basically.

[David Sims]

Well, this is like Hollywood's newest greatest pitch. Tron Aries. We all know that your least favorite thing about those Tron movies is that they take place inside a computer. Can we get out of that damn boring world and place Tron on the streets of Los Angeles? Look, every time I see that trailer.

[Griffin Newman]

Looks cool, right? But it is one of those things where I was just like. That was like, truly a great way to wound me.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Where I'm like, I love the insane logic of the video game world. Right. And they're like, no, no, the bike should go on a street, like a highway. I only trailed it.

[David Sims]

But it just. It feels so fundamentally perverse to me of being like, don't worry, no circuit board.

[Griffin Newman]

It's what you do with Tron 8.

[Caroline Framke]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, right.

[Caroline Framke]

You know, anyway, Tron is this.

[David Sims]

This three Tron Aries.

[Caroline Framke]

Oh, I'm sorry.

[David Sims]

In which Jared Leto plays a computer virus who comes to our world. He sounds.

[Caroline Framke]

You know, that sounds about right for where Jared Leto came from.

[David Sims]

Yeah. I forgot to mention, it's a documentary.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

My thing with Kristen Ritter was that she was on Veronica Mars for like eight episodes, and then she was on Gilmore Girls for eight episodes and then she was on Breaking Bad and it was one of those things where it's like hu. That saucer eyed goth keeps popping up. And so you did feel it in the air of like. Yeah, they're trying to find the thing for.

[David Sims]

That's another, like, sort of Star Trek thing is like giving people good extended runs.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Right. And it's clear that there's just like, we have negotiated for six episodes. Not that she's, like, being brought back because she's working. Like, they're like, we have planned an arc that we're pitching to you. And it just felt like she was on the cusp of something bigger for so long. I always like her. And I will say, watching this movie, it stirred things in me that I had not felt in a long time.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, you were.

[David Sims]

I find her very appealing in this.

[Griffin Newman]

You find a. A pale woman very appealing.

[David Sims]

This is what's odd. She is so much my type. And yet it was never registering for me. Previously as Hard as it did while watching this.

[Griffin Newman]

You were in a show with her, were you not?

[David Sims]

Was she on Political Animals?

[Griffin Newman]

No. Are you not in Gravity?

[David Sims]

I am, but I did not start with her. You are right. I was on four episodes of the Deeply remembered Stars original series. I think it was Stars first original series. This, of course, is a Stars movie. But yes, she was the lead of Gravity and I played a gay computer hacker.

[Griffin Newman]

Fabulous.

[David Sims]

That was one of my lines.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, that's right. I was trying to figure out, remember who Krysten Ritter played on Veronica Mars. I thought she was the recast of Leighton Meester, but no, she was playing Steve Guttenberg's daughter.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not Eddie. A a good time for the show. She often would appear on these shows when the show's kind of.

[Caroline Framke]

Or past the peak of the thing.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, right. Past their peak.

[David Sims]

Well, that was season two, which was kind of a dip. And then three was an upswing.

[Griffin Newman]

Is it two that she's in or three?

[Caroline Framke]

I think it's two.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. Yeah, yeah, it's flawed.

[David Sims]

Two's goody.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, it's real good.

[Caroline Framke]

It's very clear that it had the one season arc. But anyway, yes, she's very sweet and vamps. There's one line in it that's so the B that I was like, oh, this is where she was where, you know, the introduction of Homeland Security as the Big bad comes in, which I have so much to say about. And she just goes, oh, the terrorists. Ruined it for everyone.

[David Sims]

Ruined things for everyone.

[Caroline Framke]

It was such a Beeline movie.

[David Sims]

Has a lot of good lines. I do think maybe that's part of it, though, is like her thing is usually the, like, acid sarcasm and this.

[Griffin Newman]

Innocent here.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, she's just completely lovely bubbly, which.

[David Sims]

She does really well, and yet still has like the Kristen Ritter darkness to her, which I think so much of it is that, like. And. And we shall crack open the dossy. But so much of these interviews we read with Amy Heckerling, like, the ongoing theme of her work is like the fight between the pessimist and the optimist. That she inherently feels like this dark, tortured, agree. Critical person, and yet she loves making movies about optimus.

[Griffin Newman]

It's also. It's the New Yorker and the Los Angeles. Right? Yes. Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

I mean, it's very. What was. What was that? You know, not to go. Oh, let's quote a tweet. But the. The tweet. I do think the one tweet I think about the most is when someone called LA Shitty Heaven and New York fun hell. And you know what? Good having lived in both now.

[David Sims]

Yeah, you're allowed. I just think that there is. Both of these characters feel like stand ins for Heckerling in different ways. But there's something in casting Kristen Ritter to play an optimist that feels like you are, for the first time, physicalizing the innate tension within her work in one character.

[Griffin Newman]

So Amy Heckling releases a film called I Could Never Be a woman in 2007. It made like 2 or $300 million and so unsurprisingly starts to explore the world of episodic television after that because it's such an anonymous film. And so she does direct the sixth episode of the first season of the.

[David Sims]

Office, the introduction of Amy Adams.

[Griffin Newman]

Hot girl.

[David Sims]

Yes. Arguably the best episode of the first season.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm just gonna say it.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I. No, no Office. I won't be discussing it all down.

[David Sims]

It's the new Juilliard. We're never gonna let you live down Juilliard anger.

[Griffin Newman]

That's fine.

[David Sims]

Our Superman episode.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, the thing with the Office is.

[Caroline Framke]

Oh, see, we thought we were not discussing the Office.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. Oh, David, I just won't. I won't be engaging with that. Try to show me some nostalgic clip of.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, some hijinks on the other. I'm like, no, I don't wish for that to be in my life anymore. Not that it was ever a big part of my life because I never loved the show. But I certainly watched the show pretty much through the end. I guess I sort of fell off after Carell left.

[Ben Hosley]

They're making a weird face, looking at Griffin.

[Griffin Newman]

The camera's kind of zooming in on you.

[David Sims]

I'm doing like a crash zoom.

[Griffin Newman]

Maybe we'll check in with you later in the. In the talking headset.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Maybe you have something to say later. Behind closed doors, straight to camera.

[Griffin Newman]

So, like, when you say the Amy Adams episode of the Office, I'm like, I saw it one time.

[Caroline Framke]

Okay. But her directing that episode is actually kind of perfect.

[Griffin Newman]

Is it?

[David Sims]

Well, because she's.

[Griffin Newman]

She's a pro.

[Caroline Framke]

Well, because she comes in to sell bags and everyone thinks she's. And it's like she is presented very much as, what if Pam were hot? Is kind of the thing. Which is rude to Pam.

[David Sims]

Right. And it activates the thing. Like, she's.

[Caroline Framke]

Her hair is even redder. She's like, you know, her sweater is actually fit. Like, she and Jim get along and there's no obstacle. And that's. But it's like, that's very good at.

[David Sims]

That activates the thing in her of. She is still engaged to the guy in the. The Warehouse and is just sort of like, having fun. Like, sort of having this side flirtation with Jim. And then she sees for the first time, like, the idea of him being with someone else, which activates jealousy.

[Caroline Framke]

She didn't write that. I mean, I can't imagine she wrot that. But there's also that extended. The extended bit where it's. Because, like, there's a fire alarm or something. Is that. Or no, that's when that's later. Amy Adams comes back and there's a whole desert island.

[David Sims]

She did a bit and the first. Did a whole little arc.

[Griffin Newman]

Wasn't she already? I guess it's sort of like right when she's starting to get bigger. Like, June Bug era.

[David Sims]

Correct. It's like she. Once she gets the Oscar nomination for June Bug, she unsurprisingly, never comes back to the Office.

[Griffin Newman]

Interesting.

[David Sims]

But she is on it a handful of times, leading right up to that. So.

[Caroline Framke]

Yes. But Amy Heckerling doing oh, I'm Insecure around this Hot woman. That tracks.

[David Sims]

And like, the Office had kind of overqualified directors, especially as it went on. Yeah, I would have people and Harold Ramis and Jason Reitman, and it was just sort of like, this is a cool show the movie directors can work on and not have it seem like their career slipped down a rung. And there's maybe a larger sea change in the industry happening around that time where, like, her doing TV doesn't look as bad as it would have five years earlier, even.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, well, she does that. And then she gets signed on to 1985, which was basically like, do you want to do a Wonder Years? Like an Amy Heckerling Wonder Years?

[David Sims]

Makes sense.

[Griffin Newman]

A show that would center on a girl growing up in the 80s, narrated by a woman in the present day. I mean, it sounds fine. It plans to use music of the period as a bad. It truly is. They might as well just be like, Wonder Years. We're going to do a Wonder Years. But none of that came to fruition, and instead, in 2012, we get Vamps Now. In 2005, we get Twilight. In 2008, we get the movie Twilight. 2008, we get True Blood. 2009, we get CW's the Vampire Diaries. Relax, Ben.

[Caroline Framke]

He has a knife.

[Griffin Newman]

But Heckerling says she more is drafting off of Buffy as a sort of an earlier vampire work.

[David Sims]

And even more specifically, that her brother was obsessed with the Buffy movie. And she was like, I want to do something like this. And then she went to the original producers of the movie and pitched it to them and then was like, you already did this.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

They're not gonna say yes to this if they've already done a thing like this. But there was a bit of a micro trend, I feel, in the post Twilight Vampire Diaries True Blood landscape. Well.

[Caroline Framke]

And Buffy was pre.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

Twilight. And that's where that was my seminal vampire, for sure.

[David Sims]

Sure. But I think those three things getting big and being cool and sexy. Right. You would feel this thing of, like, maybe somewhat forgotten directors coming out and being like, well, I have a vampire script where it felt like, are vampires just innately bankable? Is it easier to get money if you have a vampire hook? Only Lovers Left Alive comes out two years after, One year after. Yeah, yeah. But was a similar thing, I feel like when he was doing interviews where he was like, this is not a post Twilight movie for me. I was not inspired by this. This is a thing I couldn't get made until Twilight, which is exactly what happened to her.

[Griffin Newman]

Makes sense that suddenly it's just a little bit more like, oh, well, vampires are in right now. So. Sure.

[David Sims]

And vampires are such an elastic metaphor. It is actually kind of wild how many different pointed ways you can use vampirism to say something, be it personal or cultural, that it makes sense that a lot of different directors would be like, yeah, I can make a personal vampire movie. That's not me just cashing in on trend. That's me, Trojan Horse. And something else I want to say.

[Ben Hosley]

What was Nosferatu's whole deal?

[Griffin Newman]

What do you mean, what is my deal?

[Caroline Framke]

Do we all enjoy Sigourney Weaver doing Nosferatu?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. She is so tall.

[David Sims]

She does a lot of. She does like a full kind of Mad TV audition.

[Griffin Newman]

A few racist jokes.

[David Sims]

Yes. Some of these cultural stereotypes seem antiquated.

[Griffin Newman]

I understand. That's the point of the character.

[Ben Hosley]

I also get full from Chinese food. I don't know what she's talking about.

[Griffin Newman]

That is one of those things where I'm like, chinese food. Food is very heavy.

[David Sims]

On two levels. No, it's culturally regressive and wrong.

[Griffin Newman]

Those racist old jokes you hear, I.

[Caroline Framke]

Guess puts on like a Gilbert Gottfried voice to do it. It's.

[Griffin Newman]

Maybe Sigourney's always had a bit of the Godfrey dinner. I don't know.

[Caroline Framke]

I mean, I kind of. She does. She's looking like she's having fun. She's basically playing like, you know, what if Zool had fun, right?

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

Right. That's very her vibe. Even, like, the ending scene where she's, like, floating towards people.

[David Sims]

There's the one scene where they dressed her in a way that feels very evoc, where they give her the full perm and she's in the kind of gold dress, and there's no way they.

[Caroline Framke]

Didn'T think of that. So this is also Mona May, right? The same costume designer as.

[David Sims]

Oh, really?

[Caroline Framke]

I think, yeah. This is the same costume designer as Clueless.

[David Sims]

And, yes, that makes sense.

[Caroline Framke]

Which, like, you know, you can also tell everything's so rooted in time period. There's so many very specific time period things. And that's something, too, that I feel like Keckerling is so, like. It doesn't surprise me at all that someone tried to get her to do a 1985 movie because each one of her films. And not even just because of the references they make.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

Like, not even just the references, which are obviously specific. Even though the situation has endured. He is a sober father now. He's doing very well. But everything is so rooted in the time period that it's in. To a degree that can be uncomfortable if you live through it. I get it.

[David Sims]

It can. And it's also, like, there's pointed content. I think there is a certain discomfort I feel watching it in, seeing them try to evoke that specifically on such limited resources, where it starts. Starts to feel like a weird kind of cosplay, hollow evocation, just because they don't have the space to get it right. Like something like Clueless, which is obviously exaggerated in a cartoonified version. And they talk about sort of like we were amplifying and exaggerating the fashion trends, and then they sort of became their own fashion trends, and they were.

[Caroline Framke]

Also working with, you know, more expensive clothes in the first place because these kids are rich.

[David Sims]

Monome did, like, a very good job with what. What she was allotted, but you feel it stuck slightly in a weird space of being, like, a little more heightened than realistic, but not heightened enough to be funny, if that makes sense.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's also because I feel like sometimes it's a little hard to tell when it is supposed to be like, I feel like a lot of the clothes Krysten Ritter wears in this movie are. They are of the 2012s, but through the. Like, they are also trying to be through the lens of she was turned in the 80s. So, like, everything is a little exaggerated.

[David Sims]

Yep. Here's what I think is so no silence.

[Griffin Newman]

I Had something to say.

[David Sims]

What do you have?

[Griffin Newman]

No, go ahead.

[Caroline Framke]

No, no. I just imagine you're doing the. The hands that they do in this.

[David Sims]

Movie when they're trying to get people to do. You think, oh, when you remember what you wanted to say.

[Griffin Newman]

I am displeased that sinners has done better than my movie.

[David Sims]

I'm so sad. I have no choice but to go.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm horny. Slow, horny. The kind of horny I am is very slow.

[David Sims]

I am single and ready to mingle.

[Griffin Newman]

He's like, he hollers at you, but he's like, he hollers at you by being like, in three days I will very slowly you like. So it's like, it's a long way.

[Caroline Framke]

It will be great, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Then when he. You. He's gonna like crawl up the bed. Yes. He's a big edger. God. Is he edging your father, a baker.

[David Sims]

Because it looks like you are smuggling two buns.

[Ben Hosley]

This is kind of crass of me, but let's go. I think Nosferatu probably goons.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm always gooning in my cast.

[David Sims]

I have so many tabs open.

[Griffin Newman]

I owe only funds, thousands of dockets. Whatever they.

[David Sims]

I send more duckets than they're asking for, right?

[Griffin Newman]

They're like, this will be $10. You can have 15. I'm big like that.

[David Sims]

How much for a decorating?

[Caroline Framke]

I'm so pleased I get to see that.

[David Sims]

Of course.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, my goodness.

[Caroline Framke]

Every vampire has their thing, you know, being sex freak. A lot of vampires are sex freaks. It's interesting that they're not here.

[Griffin Newman]

She says is often in vampire stuff. It's sexual, True Blood and Twilight. Obviously. That's the sort of big thing with the metaphor here. But no, she's much more interested in the agelessness. The idea of being eternally young, but from different time periods.

[David Sims]

Here is the super potent thing in this movie that once I locked into this is what she's doing. I was on board, which is she is commenting on her weird state as a person whose currency professionally comes from. Amy Heckerling is good at understanding the youth, the younger generations. What is hip, what is cool, what is new. She has done this across decades, right? Not just did she do it when she was young, but she was able to still lock into it 10, 15 years later. And like, what is this weird balance of being someone whose life is about trying to stay professionally engaged with what is young and new and hip, when part of her is also just like, I like old gangster movies, right? Like, I don't Want to deal with this shit. And it's this fight of just being like it is exhausting. As much as like people like the idea of staying young forever. How badly do I now just want to let myself be an old woman and just not have to keep up with this shit?

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah. Goody in the.

[David Sims]

How long can we just go to clubs every night, right. And have to worry about the right outfits and knowing the right bands and all this shit?

[Griffin Newman]

She's a night person. She says she's always figured such a lifestyle might be fun for a while. Eternal youth in New York. She liked playing around with the slang from different eras. It's kind of fun which she's always kind of like to play around with slang. She doesn't like the Twilight vampires. She doesn't like that they can be outside in the daytime.

[Caroline Framke]

I mean that is the thing. Like what I didn't. I wasn't a Twilight, you know, early adopter, Girly, ironic or otherwise. But when I found out that. That they can go into the sunlight and not only can they, but it makes them beautiful twinkling creatures.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

Like these are unicorns. Like these are not.

[David Sims]

Excuse me, Caroline. Let's not make him a beautiful twinkly creature. That is the skin of a monster.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm a monster. A horny monster.

[David Sims]

She's really good Edward Cullen impression there.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm Edward Cullen. You smell disgusting. Let me get up in those guys.

[Caroline Framke]

That's the Edward Cullen in the world where Wallace Shawn is. Mr. Van Helsing.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Well, God will take a long time to get there. Rated T for Teen. Each year, thousands of adults lose their shred. It's an epidemic simply known as shred loss. But it doesn't have to be this way. Because rekindling your shred is as easy as playing the new Tony hawk's Pro Skater 3 and 4. With new parks, cross platform, multiplayer and sick new game modes, we can put an end to shred loss everywhere. Hit the new Tony hawk's Pro Skater 3 and 4 and show the world that the shred's not dead. Pre order Tony hawk's Pro Skater 3 and 4 and play the Foundry demo. Jack Daniels is proudly served in fine establishments, questionable joints and everywhere in between.

[Griffin Newman]

So no matter where you go in.

[David Sims]

Every bar, you'll always know someone by name.

[Caroline Framke]

Jack.

[David Sims]

Jack and Coke shot at Jack.

[Caroline Framke]

Jack Daniels, please.

[Griffin Newman]

Right away.

[David Sims]

That's what makes Jack Jack.

[Griffin Newman]

Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org Jack Daniels and old number seven are registered trademarks. Copyright 2025 Jack Daniels Tennessee Whiskey 40% alcohol by volume 80 proof. One movie that she kind of liked was. She's obviously seen Nosferatu or Bela Lugosi's Dracula or whatever. She really kind of.

[David Sims]

This movie that shows no interest in German expressionism, but she really kind of.

[Griffin Newman]

Enjoyed Gerard Butler's Dracul Dracula 2000. Oh, sure, she says, I liked his take on it. It was as though Dracula was doomed or cursed because he was Judas and that's why he doesn't like seeing crosses. It's very different take on Dracula. She dugs that. She likes monster movies in general. She likes the Wolfman with Lawn Chaney, the Universal classics. She thinks vampires are a good metaphor for Jews, outsiders that feel disenfranchised, whatever else is doing, trying to pass.

[Caroline Framke]

So that's. I mean, that's the. Do you. Are you. Are you speed speeding through these, or.

[David Sims]

Should I. Carolyn, what gives you that vibe? I feel like he's taking a lot of time in consideration for everything you say.

[Caroline Framke]

He's got his bullet point. I'm just like.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm looking at the dossier. It's fucking long.

[David Sims]

Caroline, what do you. What did that spark in you?

[Caroline Framke]

Well, yeah, I mean, I do. I feel like with. When I first started rewatching vs. Oh, I don't think I ever said how I watched videos in the first place.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, yes.

[Caroline Framke]

I was trying to remember how the hell I saw.

[Griffin Newman]

I had not seen it until yesterday.

[Caroline Framke]

Really? Okay, so none of you had seen it until this week? Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

No, no.

[Caroline Framke]

So that's why when David expressed shock that I'd ever seen it, I was trying to remember how the hell I saw. But I was in LA in 2012. I moved out there in 2011. And I was like, did I go to the one theater it was released in?

[David Sims]

There was not very thorough box office reporting on this, but Box Office Mojo claims it played in one theater for two weeks now. I remember it playing in at least one theater in New York City. I remember intending to go see it, I want to say, at the Village East. And it was gone before I got around to. Was really like a movie that stars Anchor Bay primarily a DVD distributor and.

[Griffin Newman]

Not television of, like, fancy DVDs. Kind of a cheapo DVD distributor, like.

[David Sims]

Mostly like, cult horror movies doing like 40 editions of evil Dead and whatever. Got the distribution rights for this movie sort of a bit after filming had wrapped and they announced it as, like, Vamp's getting a theatrical release. Will be available to rent digitally 10 days later, which in 2012, that did not happen often. That the turnaround was that quick and was sort of like screamed contractual obligation to put this in one theater. Maybe it was one week in one theater in LA and one week in one theater in New York.

[Griffin Newman]

Quite possible, maybe.

[Caroline Framke]

I mean, but I. I do think I was trying to trace it and, you know, I don't have a totally satisfying answer to this because I never fully got it, but I asked my friend Karinza, who I hung out with a lot when I first was in la, where we might have seen this, because I was sure it was with her. Because I feel like when I first moved to la, you know, the idea was I'm working in TV and I'm gonna like, say yes to everything. Hollywood framkey. Hollywood fram. And I feel like it must have screened somewhere. Her best guess. And she.

[David Sims]

Interesting.

[Caroline Framke]

It might have been like a special screening at. There was a theater called Cine Family. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. On Fairfax, which has since shut down for sex pest reasons. But they screened a lot of things and it would not have been out of the question for this, something like this to screen there. And I feel like. Because I definitely remember seeing it in a. We could have rented it, but I think we saw it in a theater. And I was just going to screenings, Going to screenings. And when she was like, do you want to go to this thing? It's from the director of Clueless. It's about vampires. I'm like, what's not, you know, what's there not to like about that? And then I just never researched it any further and did not realize it was such a tortured, weird, obscure situation until basically David asked me to be.

[David Sims]

On the book was basically a like. Like a straight to VOD streaming disc.

[Caroline Framke]

Before that, I just. I didn't even know. I just was like. But again, that was all the pitch I needed. So it. There was an audience.

[David Sims]

Yes. Cine Family was the kind of place to be. Like, we're gonna take Amy Heckerling seriously. Right? But I. I imagine, yes, probably disproportionately the amount of people who ever saw this in a theater saw it at screenings like that versus commercial release. I mean, what is the reported final box office gross for this movie? $10,000, $3,000 dollars?

[Griffin Newman]

It's not amazing. You're right.

[David Sims]

You know what? You're right.

[Griffin Newman]

It's actually not amazing.

[Caroline Framke]

What was I going to say before that? Oh, yes.

[David Sims]

But you enjoyed it.

[Caroline Framke]

I enjoyed it. And I feel like what. What was interesting about revisiting it is that, you know, whenever you talk about any Vampire story. Any vampire story, whether it's a teenage thing, you know, a Buffy, a Vampire Diaries, a True Blood, a Sinners, any vampire story, inevitably there's going to be not just metaphors about sex or drugs. I feel like in this movie, it's much more drugs than sex. Until Justin Kirk and Mary Lou Henner have their moment, then it's sexual sex.

[David Sims]

And Justin Kirk feels like her pointed parody of the over sexualized.

[Caroline Framke]

Over sexualized for sure. But she's less interested in. I mean, it's basically drugs, but it's kind of. She's. That's not what she's interested in. But I was like this. Vampires are always a metaphor for marginalized people.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Caroline Framke]

Because they, you know, whether it's queer people, Jewish people, they're in the shadows. They're in the shadows. You know, sinners and the, you know, black Americans and Jim Crow south. There's always that. And when I first started this film, I was like, how weird to watch a vampire story where that's not the case. And then Wallace Shawn, King of Homeland Security, comes in.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

And suddenly the movie's about the Patriot act and having to delete people from databases so they don't disappear. And how interesting. What an interesting moment to watch that.

[David Sims]

As Dr. Van Helsing, head of Homeland Security. Like that. That full reveal. Like, first it's like, oh, here's Wallace Sean. He's like a New York beat cop or detective. This is interesting casting. And then you realize, oh, no, he is. He's homeless Dr. Van Helsing working for Homeland Security.

[Caroline Framke]

And there's a very. Like that first scene where he's going to find the body of the pizza.

[David Sims]

Guy with Ivan Sirjai, right?

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, but the. No, no, the. The pizza guy.

[David Sims]

Well, Ivan surgized his partner. Sorry. But Taylor Negron, reprising, implied the same pizza delivery guy from Fast Times.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. He's also a delivery man in Johnny Dangerously.

[Caroline Framke]

Yep. So this is his bit, but Sigourney killed him for. For real, Rip.

[David Sims]

Beheaded him.

[Caroline Framke]

And there's this such a funny moment between the cop and Wallace Sean, where the cop, like, disdains him for being Homeland Security. He's like, go find a subway map and an explosive and then we'll call you off. And I'm like, jesus.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, this movie is very, you know, again, like, locked into specifically satirizing things like the Patriot Act.

[Caroline Framke]

I mean, but that's so interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

It is.

[David Sims]

It's just.

[Griffin Newman]

But it also, like, locks it in.

[Caroline Framke]

Like, completely forgotten about that part of it. And it does, does give it something.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

That, you know, I don't know that she 100 needed to, but I find it really interesting that she wanted to and that she locked in on Homeland Security and the Patriot act. And, you know, what would, what would.

[Griffin Newman]

Vampires fear in modern America? Maybe that's.

[Caroline Framke]

Well, also because, you know, we're following two vampires who from the beginning were like, I have no interest in being a vampire who kills people, who enjoys killing, who likes human blood. I don't want any part of it.

[David Sims]

You're seeing this support group of like, here's the modern progressive vampire that wants to get away from negative stereotypes, including Vlad the Impaler.

[Caroline Framke]

Tepish.

[David Sims]

Yeah, we should mention Malcolm McDowell plays Vlad the Impaler. And he's very funny, he's very good in it. This whole cast is.

[Caroline Framke]

That's, that's the thing. But it's just like, these are vampires.

[Griffin Newman]

Qualified cast or whatever.

[Ben Hosley]

Well, he's a chef of caramel apples.

[Caroline Framke]

The thing is, it's not. He's not the, the amount of things she was like, what else could he impale? It's caramel apples. Oh, sure, it's his impaling caramel apples.

[David Sims]

Yeah, for sure.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, that in knitting. But it's like these are vampires who want to assimilate, who are trying to assimilate and just be as normal and as unobtrusive as they can be, and they still cannot do that. And that is really. That's the metaphor. Right? You can never fully assimilate. It's just not possible.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah. And also the, the sort of like the never ending pursuit of hipness, of trying to stay relevant. It is like a fucking treadmill that is impossible to keep up with.

[Caroline Framke]

Well, right, so it's interesting because she seems, you know, it's this weird tension in the film where it's both about relevance and it's about Homeland Security is going to get you right.

[David Sims]

Like, they're trying to stay forever young, but it's not enough to just biologically be forever young. They need to figure out how to be relevant young women, which is this whole fucking game, this, like, rat race they have to do. And then also, yes, like, the Homeland Security thing feels like.

[Caroline Framke]

I mean, I was kind of pleasantly surprised by it. I was like, me too. This is actually a very interesting route to go down.

[Griffin Newman]

A lot of things in this movie are interesting.

[David Sims]

I think, basically, I think this script is like borderline great. Like, I think if I read this, I'd be like, holy, this thing is going to be a knockout and unlike I can never be your woman, where you like, step back and squint your eyes and you're like, I see the six good ideas.

[Griffin Newman]

Right.

[David Sims]

But none of them are really executed well. I think in scripting, every idea in this movie is actually.

[Griffin Newman]

So why executed well, obviously there's not enough money for certain things, but there is a bit of a TV janky vibe.

[Caroline Framke]

That's why I was thinking like, oh, this could have been a series like this.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

Like in the, you know, the over explaining in the 21st, 20 minutes of like, here are the rules of this vampire world. Because every vampire world has its own rules.

[Griffin Newman]

Why is Clueless such an incredible piece of filmmaking, which I would also argue is true for a lot of her earlier movies and nothing after Clueless has the craft side so nailed down. Is it truly just money and time?

[David Sims]

At the time we're recording this, we have not yet done our Loser app, which was her last studio film. I. I think as much as that movie is not as loved as Clueless, I think it has a little more movies of that. I've seen some of Loser on tv and it certainly looks more like a real movie. I do think, if you want me to unpack this for a moment, he's kind of like.

[Griffin Newman]

He's sort of like a ship of.

[David Sims]

An L on his forehead.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Right finger in his thumb. A lot of it boils down to like time and support. I. I really do think so. Beyond the fact that you're just like, she's got cheaper locations, she probably has like harder outs on cast. Especially with a cast, a pretty large ensemble with a lot of big names. Right. A lot of these people are probably agreeing. If it's like, if you can shoot Sigourney out in two days, you can get her. So now you have like a kind of slap dash location that you're putting her in and you're having to run through these things.

[Griffin Newman]

Grant's tomb.

[Caroline Framke]

Grants tomb. I mean, good bit.

[David Sims]

I have not been there when I. I love watching whenever DVDs have any sort of BTS footage, not of like, you know, the interviews, but comedy movies being directed. And the Clueless DVD has a fair amount of this. And I remember something about Mary DVD being like as a comedy movie obsessed kid, like its own mini film school of just watching uncut footage of the director shaping the scene. And as much as you can write it well and visualize it well and cast the right people, so much of comedy is such a weird, precise tone thing that it's why these Movies need, like, studio funding, really, if they're gonna be more ambitious than, like, three people talking in a house. If they're going to be more ambitious than, like, mumblecore, where you're giving yourself that space and time because the budget is nothing and you just need people to stay in an apartment.

[Caroline Framke]

Especially for, you know, not just a movie that requires special effects. But I feel like I was also reading a couple interviews with her about this movie and how she would have loved to have done more of flashbacks or, like, more, you know.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. A lot of the flesh. What appeals to her is the, like.

[Caroline Framke]

Period stuff is really expensive.

[Ben Hosley]

Like, I love when they turn into a bat, too.

[Caroline Framke]

Oh, so you miss.

[Griffin Newman]

So you're just sort of like, why no bat?

[Caroline Framke]

Why no bat? Yeah, that's, you know, that's a fair. That's a fair day.

[Griffin Newman]

You just think that's a good bit. Yeah.

[Ben Hosley]

And then they're kind of like, talking as going, bat mode.

[Caroline Framke]

Sure. You didn't like straw on the rat?

[Ben Hosley]

I love that.

[Caroline Framke]

Straw and rat. Okay.

[David Sims]

Very fun.

[Caroline Framke]

I was like. That feels. That feels Ben coated.

[David Sims]

If I may close this loop for a moment, right? You watch her directing, like, Clueless, and this footage of her directing, like, the wedding scene at the end and, like, the actors throwing out ideas and her finessing it over and over again. And things being able to play out in a group shot where you're seeing the real timing of five people, like, finding a new moment, riffing on it and finessing it, and whatever that is. Like, the thing that, like, money gets you is the time and space to do that. Right. And I have been on so many shoots like this where they're like, we know we don't have that time. So this is going to have to be constructed in the edit. We can't spend five hours rehearsing this until it's perfect and then get 20 takes of the whole scene playing out in a master. They're like, we just have to start shooting. So then you get into this zone where your shots become tighter and less composed because you just need as many editing pieces as you can possibly get. And you need to start getting them fast. Just getting fucking footed. And I think that leads to this feeling of it being like tv, which traditionally was always more constructed like that. You hire pros and you get funny line readings from them, and you create the chemistry in the edit later versus the best comedy movies. You're feeling like it's like fucking old Hollywood musical shit where you're like, I cannot believe the relationship of These two people moving and speaking in the same frame at the same time. And like, I. That is even more than the effects because I actually think it is impressive what she got visually, considering how low this budget was.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, I mean, the moment when Van Helsing's first kill is pretty horrifying, actually.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Caroline Framke]

The burned alive vampire. It's pretty good.

[David Sims]

I just. She made certain balances of, like, these effects are important. I want to shoot enough days in New York, even though a lot of it was Detroit.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, a lot of it was Detroit. But it's also because it's a vampire movie, you got to do it at night.

[David Sims]

It's a big cast. She clearly spent money on the wardrobe, all this sort of shit. It's like the biggest, big concession she's making is time. And that leads to this feeling kind of clumsy in. In ways.

[Griffin Newman]

Now, the film, as we say, was made for about $10 million or so, because that's kind of what you could get from Lauren Vercel, the producer who made. Had made that movie, City island, another kind of low budgety New Yorky comedy.

[David Sims]

That was a mini breakthrough.

[Griffin Newman]

Exactly.

[David Sims]

Yeah. She also has Red Hour producing this. Stuart Cornfield, her old friend from afi, Ben Stiller's company, at a moment where they were very powerful.

[Caroline Framke]

Sure.

[David Sims]

I'm almost surprised that they weren't able to get her even like a couple million more to help out, but it also feels like her old friend is doing her a solid.

[Griffin Newman]

Let's get Ben on the phone.

[David Sims]

Let's get Ben on the phone.

[Griffin Newman]

So he'll be in a good mood the next one. One of the funniest things is, what was it? Was he at the Emmys or something? Or I forget. No, it was the Oscars. It was when he presented the Oscars then he was like tweeting like, you know, like, as he always does, like, minute by minute through the. And they were like, aren't you at the Oscars? And he was like, go next. Like, all right. Alicia Silverstone's in this film now. She's in Clueless, which is another film. Amy Heckerling made a lot about her.

[David Sims]

Performance in that episode. And we talked about the sort of ramp up of her as the Aerosmith girl. We did not talk larger career because the fall off of Alicia Silverstone is culturally one of the more interesting things we've lived through.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a bit of a boomer.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

A boomera.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Obviously, she's in Clueless and then her next real big role. She is in True Crime in a Small role or whatever, something.

[David Sims]

But that. I think it was shot before.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. It's like her Next is the 97 double barrel of Batgirl as Batman in Batman and Robin and Excess Baggage, which, with Benicio del Toro being very normal.

[David Sims]

She, like, immediately after Clueless signs, I think it was a three picture, six million dollar deal with Paramount where they were like, we are in the Alicia Silverstone business. Or was it with. I think it was with Sony, actually.

[Griffin Newman]

Excess Baggage, I can tell you, is certainly a film from the great people of Columbia Pictures.

[David Sims]

I think that was the first of what was supposed to be her three picture deal, but there was essentially a bidding.

[Griffin Newman]

She had a company called First Kiss.

[David Sims]

That was the thing. The label, like, Clueless is so huge. And people were even like, is she gonna, like, get an Oscar nomination? She deserved one.

[Caroline Framke]

Specifically, do the TV show. Because she was like, I'm going to do other things.

[David Sims]

Right. Yeah. She signs this deal, she's got three movies and they're like, we're giving you autonomy here. Like, you. You are a producer on these films. Pick your material, cast them. Then Batgirl comes up, which at that moment probably seems like, well, no, they want me to be in a Batman movie. I should do that. So that leaps frogs to her next project. And then her first thing in the Columbia deal is Excess Baggage, where she's like, I want Beno del Toro. I'm picking the director. They talk about that. The whole movie is like her selecting the things on the soundtrack back. This is supposed to be the real moment of, like, Alicia Silverstone builds a movie for herself and her taste. And it is just kind of like completely ignored.

[Griffin Newman]

It's an interesting movie. It's not bad, in my opinion. It's weird. And Del Toro is really, really weird in it.

[David Sims]

Like, they're an odd usual suspects era.

[Griffin Newman]

Del Toro as like these.

[Caroline Framke]

Who's actually weirder than we thought.

[Griffin Newman]

Exactly.

[David Sims]

But for like, then Batman and Robin makes her look kind of silly more than anything. People are like, this is embarrassing.

[Caroline Framke]

I mean, Batgirl's not a very.

[David Sims]

It's not rich role, but she's.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, she's. She's abominable in that movie.

[David Sims]

And people are kind of like laughing at her. Like, people laughing at her.

[Griffin Newman]

And people are mean and sexist to her. Like 100. She is also so bad in that movie. It's kind of crazy because you're like, what happened? You're clearly a talented performer. Character is a circus.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

And no one's good in that movie. Now, now, now, everyone says, uma, and Arnold are good in it, and I can kind of go with them in that. But certainly George and Alicia and Rob, Chris o', Donnell, but especially George Clooney and Alicia Silverstone. Just the line deliveries where they just kind of feel like they're like, did I get that right? And Schumacher's like, I don't know, let's keep going, like, you know, like on to the next crazy set.

[David Sims]

You know, say like Chris o' Donnell at least, like, wears the suit well. Like, he understands how to be the action figure.

[Griffin Newman]

He has a sense of Robin more than the other two.

[David Sims]

I think it is like the, the. The reason Alicia Silverstone is dinged harder by Batman and Robin than anyone else is. It's a little close to what we were talking about of like when Travolta up where you're like, you look silly. How do you not have enough self awareness to sort of like, protect yourself from this?

[Griffin Newman]

But it's also a horrible role.

[Caroline Framke]

Absolutely.

[David Sims]

And. But then it's just immediately followed up by like, okay, but here is her movie. And people go, eh. And Columbia never cashes in the other two movies in her deal.

[Griffin Newman]

No, but I will. I will always go to the map for blast from the past.

[David Sims]

A fun movie or a movie I.

[Griffin Newman]

Really like, that's kind of also like salty, sweet and interesting with Brendan Fraser. I think that movie's fun.

[David Sims]

An incredible premise for a movie and a premise that only could have worked in the exact year they made the movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Pretty much. I haven't seen it in, you know, 20 plus years.

[David Sims]

I've watched it recently. It is okay.

[Griffin Newman]

She's in the Kenneth Brana Loves Labors Lost, which is basically just ignored. Doesn't really make any money at all. And it, It's. That's it.

[David Sims]

She does the Graduate on Broadway.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure. But the boring role. Totally the. Yeah, the girl.

[David Sims]

Yeah, yeah. And then NBC's like, we've got Alicia Silverstone. We're putting her on TV. And it felt like, oh, she. That's someone who was a movie star. That's kind of a big deal.

[Griffin Newman]

I was pumped for Mismatch. It wasn't just that it was her, it was Darren Stone created it, right? No, dude, I was way pumped because.

[David Sims]

I was like, it was one of the most shows that.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And it's like, it's Silverstone is that kind of star. Where in the early 2000s you were like, well, they, they.

[Caroline Framke]

And was she playing a matchmaker? Of course she was. So it's Emma again.

[David Sims]

Yeah, exactly. The whole tone.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. And that show just kind of stayed.

[David Sims]

It just didn't work. Yeah, right. And she now, like, she'll. She.

[Griffin Newman]

It's over.

[David Sims]

Pops up in things in little parts.

[Griffin Newman]

But, I mean, it's like the idea of her leading a movie totally is gone when they. She pops up in beauty shop. The great beauty shop.

[David Sims]

Yeah. A strange performance.

[Griffin Newman]

Funny, strange things.

[David Sims]

She's like Diane Keaton's daughter in the book club movies. She's one of the.

[Griffin Newman]

And I remember she's in the Killing of a Sacred Deer.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

The Lanthimos movie, in, like, a small role. She's Barry Keoghan's mom in it. And when I interviewed Yorgos for that movie, I was like, alicia Silverstone. He was like, yeah, I love her. Clueless. Like, I love Alicia. Why doesn't anyone use her? Like, it was great to work with.

[David Sims]

Her, but more often it's like, it was almost like.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, this Greek pervert had to, like, appear and be like, y', all, like, Clueless is Alicia Silverstone. Does anyone have a number for her?

[David Sims]

She got zero bucks from that because.

[Griffin Newman]

It'S not a big role.

[David Sims]

Right. And like, I think more of where it's like, she was the replacement mom in Diary of a Wimpy Kid 3.

[Griffin Newman]

You know what?

[David Sims]

After the original cast left.

[Griffin Newman]

God bless Yorgos. She's in his new movie.

[Caroline Framke]

Great. And she is also. I don't know that you taped your Clueless episode before the Clueless TV show is announced that she is going to win.

[Griffin Newman]

No, but it was announced.

[David Sims]

But two days after we recorded our episode.

[Griffin Newman]

Dude, did you know that the cast of Begonia is. Is Emma Stone and Jesse Plemons. Alicia Silverstone and Stavi. Stavi.

[David Sims]

I did know that.

[Griffin Newman]

That's crazy.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Because people are just like, just get.

[David Sims]

Me another nearest pervert corner of the Internet that is really hyped on the idea of Stavi being a supporting actor.

[Griffin Newman]

In a Yorgos movie. I could see magic there.

[David Sims]

Absolutely. He might just, like, nail it.

[Griffin Newman]

Also.

[Ben Hosley]

He's one of our best.

[Griffin Newman]

He kind of is.

[David Sims]

He's great. I think he's basically kind of doughboys.

[Griffin Newman]

And being like, like, let's talk like nefarious fat guy guys. And him being like, let's do it. You know, like. Like, what kind of bad behaviors can we get into?

[David Sims]

Did you guys hear him on WTF as well?

[Griffin Newman]

I know. I should listen.

[David Sims]

He lost the gates and just basically talked about politics for, like, 40 straight minutes at the end of the episode and was so smart.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, he is very smart about this stuff. Imo she's done a lot of theater.

[Caroline Framke]

She's really good in this. She is. I think she's really good.

[Griffin Newman]

In my opinion, she's really doing a lot of the clueless stuff. The little, you know, the little mouth tug that does. So cute. You know, like, and the kind of, like, sweet with a little salty, like, curly hair.

[Caroline Framke]

Clueless.

[Ben Hosley]

What do you think of the makeup?

[Caroline Framke]

What do I think of the makeup?

[Griffin Newman]

The vampires got the eyeshadow.

[David Sims]

Now that, of course, is an Amy Heckling staple. Amy Heckerling always has the raccoon eyes.

[Caroline Framke]

Well, I will. Yeah, that's true. Right. That's one of her things. But it does feel very like. Okay, so these are the vampires. We're going to, like, put very intense eyeliner on them and sometimes. But I will say, like, of that era, like, I was putting a lot of eyeliner on then, so I feel like it was also just.

[Griffin Newman]

But I'm guessing you look better than Todd Berry. No offense sense the whole time.

[Caroline Framke]

Well, thank you so much.

[David Sims]

Don't we once again think that we're in an exact midpoint of like, you're 10 over it being realistic, but 20 under it being funny. Exaggeration.

[Caroline Framke]

Sure.

[David Sims]

Where it just sort of maybe looks a little sloppy.

[Caroline Framke]

I mean. Yeah, definitely. Like, it's. It's smeared. It's not quite there. It's been. That's kind of. What can I ask you guys, have you done over your many, many years? How many other vampire movies have you done?

[David Sims]

Really? Good question. Actually, not how many? That many?

[Caroline Framke]

I mean, every episode's in a spot.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, we did Twilight franchise on Patreon.

[Caroline Framke]

Okay.

[David Sims]

And we have covered John Vampires.

[Griffin Newman]

That counts.

[David Sims]

But for how sturdy a franchise this is, especially franchise mythos.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

I mean, it's just there's so.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, what are the big vampire things we might have done? Let's see. We Bought a Zoo. Was that vampire.

[Caroline Framke]

Okay?

[David Sims]

We haven't done Neil Jordan. We haven't done Coppola. We haven't done Jarmusch.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

We haven't done Herzog Her Dog. Like, I'm thinking of.

[Caroline Framke]

I'm like, are you. Did you guys, like, Was. You know, if you. As much as you liked monsters or any. I don't know if you were monster boys.

[David Sims]

Were you vampire boys big time monster boy.

[Griffin Newman]

But you're not as big a vampire.

[David Sims]

I was gonna say you like the.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm a monster monster.

[Caroline Framke]

Like a Frankie. Like a monster or like a the thing or like, you know, almost, you.

[David Sims]

Know, I'd say as a child, I. I Kind of my mind sparked the most at Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

[Caroline Framke]

Okay.

[David Sims]

That was very big for me. But I also think, like, Scooby Doo as a gateway into the monster Ghosts.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

But also, like, Frankenstein's mummies zombies. And then I was watching Monster Mash.

[Griffin Newman]

What's going on here? Movie. Another revisionist vampire film.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Caroline Framke]

Yes.

[David Sims]

But I was really into the classical monster types, both the funny versions and the older, quote unquote scary ones. But the ones that were not modern horror films. Vampires has always interested me less. And it is funny that every time I hear a director I like, and I had this exact feeling when Sinners got announced.

[Griffin Newman]

Isn't Dark Shadows a vampire?

[David Sims]

Yeah. Another good call. Every time a director I like, like, announces they're doing a vampire movie, I'm like, what is it with vampires? Most of the time I enjoy it, and yet I'm never amped at the idea.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And, like, I saw Sinners, and I was like, fuck, there's still juice in this vampire. There's stuff you can do with it. And yet I'm sure the next time someone I like announces a vampire movie, I will go, why again? Why another one?

[Griffin Newman]

Why do you not like my movie?

[David Sims]

All the movies we listed, I basically like, you know, And I'm like, as long as there was some personal point of view, like, Only Lovers Left Alive is one of my favorite movies of that decade.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, Only Lovers Left Alive is kind of the artier vamps because it's also like, we've lived through so many years of society. Here we are just kind of chilling. What do we do with ourselves? America's getting weird.

[David Sims]

I think his metaphor in that movie is more kind of like hipsters not being able to reckon with the fact that they're still alive. Right. It's sort of like that movie's about.

[Griffin Newman]

Junkies kind of being like, geez, we made it, and now we, like, live in Detroit and, like, world's going to.

[Caroline Framke]

And there's, like, elements of that, like, Interview with Vampire, like, that kind of thing. Like, I definitely remember when I first.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, I got to watch that show. Everyone's telling me that show is so good.

[Caroline Framke]

It's good. And I mean, the thing that.

[Griffin Newman]

And I hear it's a little horny.

[Caroline Framke]

It's very. David Rice is in.

[Griffin Newman]

I know. I know.

[Caroline Framke]

A little horny.

[Griffin Newman]

Pump your brakes. I hear a little horned up. Yes.

[Caroline Framke]

Sex. Wall to wall. Wall.

[David Sims]

Great wall.

[Caroline Framke]

Dicks on dicks, man.

[Griffin Newman]

Dicks on dicks. I need them on top of each other.

[David Sims]

Like, A little sandwich, no docket, just stacking.

[Griffin Newman]

No Big Mac, you know, moist maker.

[David Sims]

But you want Jenga Towers.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Does that ever happen? Is there like a sex act where people go to a sex party and just go like, how many dicks can we stack on top of each other?

[Griffin Newman]

Jenga thing. But then you're gonna need like ladders.

[Caroline Framke]

Are you talking horizontally or vertically?

[Griffin Newman]

Who knows?

[David Sims]

I'm talking.

[Griffin Newman]

Play around.

[Caroline Framke]

Oh, I was talking. See, I, I, my brain went to horizontally. So we've got a lot of different.

[David Sims]

That I feel like is more like building a rope bridge though, isn't it? Like sort of slap by slat.

[Caroline Framke]

Oh, boy.

[David Sims]

If you're going horizontally, I think Jenga Tower has to be vertically. It's the same game of like, how many guys can stack on top of each other.

[Caroline Framke]

The mechanics have rapidly run away from.

[David Sims]

I feel fully in control.

[Griffin Newman]

Never made one. I'm just looking at all our vampire.

[Ben Hosley]

The other one, Thirst Park.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, that's another good one.

[Caroline Framke]

Mm. Eczema isn't always obvious, but it's real. And so is the relief from EBGLIS. After an initial dosing phase, about 4 in 10 people taking EBGLIS achieved itch relief and clear or almost clear skin at 16 weeks. And most of those people maintain skin that's still more clear at one year with monthly dosing.

[David Sims]

EBGLIS Lebricizumab LBKZ a 250mg per 2ml.

[Ben Hosley]

Injection is a prescription medicine used to.

[David Sims]

Treat treat adults and children 12 years of age and older who weigh at least 88 pounds or 40 kilograms with moderate to severe eczema, also called atopic dermatitis, that is not well controlled with prescription therapies used on the skin or topicals or who cannot use topical therapies. EBGLIS can be used with or without topical corticosteroids. Don't use if you are allergic to Eglis. Allergic reactions can occur that can be Severe eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with EBGLIS before starting epglis. Tell your doctor doctor if you have a parasitic infection searching for real relief.

[Caroline Framke]

Ask your doctor about epis and visit epis.lily.com or call 1-800-lilyrx or 1-800-545-5979. I love vampires. I've long loved vampires.

[Griffin Newman]

Who's your favorite?

[Caroline Framke]

Well, I mean, I guess Dracula. No, no, I wasn't a Dracula. Girl, I did not like Angel. I did like. I liked Spike better than Angel.

[Griffin Newman]

Angel solves crimes in la.

[Caroline Framke]

Maybe he does. He does solve crime. Vanilla. He. He. Yeah, he took over a law firm. Sorry. Actually, you know, a vampire. I was thinking of a of lot lot during Vamps is Harmony, the blonde vampire from Buffy and Angel. She's a.

[Griffin Newman]

She's got a vamps. You're right. She's very.

[Caroline Framke]

She's very vamps. There's a really. I actually re. Watched an angel episode, Mercedes McNabb. And she's working as Angels, like, receptionist. And she has like a little montage in the morning where she's getting ready and brushing her fangs and, like, warming up the rap blood. And it's very fast.

[David Sims]

Oh, I have to swing in here for a moment. Hotel Transylvania trilogy.

[Griffin Newman]

Vampires in it.

[David Sims]

Trilogy.

[Caroline Framke]

I'm sorry, of course.

[Griffin Newman]

And that is a trilogy, and that is canon. And you could mark that down and you can put it right in the book.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, no, it's great. And vampires always, like, very much interested me, definitely. You know, they were sexy in a way where it's like, well, they're not having sex. They're having sex. Penetrative. It's interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

Who is your vampire? Is it Buffy?

[Caroline Framke]

It's got to be Buffy. I think it's definitely Buffy.

[David Sims]

Was that your activation? Like, do you feel like you were naturally inclined towards vampires as a child and Buffy was the best version of that? Or was that when you first locked in?

[Caroline Framke]

I. That's when I first lucked into, like. Well, actually, I was gonna say that was when I first walked into, like, narrative TV being a thing that I really fell for. But actually that was hey, Arnold, which got a shout out in this film in a slightly rude way, but I love a hey, Arnold shout out.

[Griffin Newman]

Just like Jake Vogel Nest gets a fucking drive by in this movie.

[David Sims]

Look, some of these Be friends. That feels really pointed. But all of these references feel like. Right. Oh, right. The first draft of the script is 2005.

[Caroline Framke]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Like, we're making fun of talking head.

[David Sims]

Shows, but there's also, you know, something.

[Caroline Framke]

That'S always transgressive about vampires.

[David Sims]

So.

[Caroline Framke]

One of my very best college friends is a drag performer in Brooklyn. I think I probably shouted on Showgirls because that was her favorite, the wonderful Ms. Malice. And every January, if you're in Brooklyn, you should go to their vamp themed show every January for their birthday.

[David Sims]

Not a vamps theme show.

[Caroline Framke]

Not a vamps. A vampire theme show. Every year they do it. Every year they find new to do. There's you Know, this year there is definitely more Nosferatu stuff. She likes doing vampire lovers, like, very classic 60s. Like Ingrid Pit. Like. Like vampires. Because there's that whole genre. There's a. There's a really good Lost Boys this year. And it was just the kind of thing where. Yeah, being in this room full of, like, you know, very. Like, only like queer trans people who are just like, vampires are a thing. They live in the dark. They are the thing that people are afraid of. Like, so for that room, it was like, this is queer coded in a way that we all cottoned onto as kids. I. I guess I. You know, I guess I was. I was closeted as a kid. I just don't even think of it that way. But I don't. I. For me, that's not what it was really about. It was more like that. This story is so interesting and intricate. And I liked learning the rules of the Buffy vampire world. So I always am interested in how the rules of vampires shift between depictions.

[Griffin Newman]

And if someone finds a new sort.

[Caroline Framke]

Of a new thing to do. Like, you know, the idea that a vampire, like all the vampires. Sorry, who, like, you know, one vampire sired will die if the sire dies is a, you know, an older thing. But this, the vamp one, the vamp version is very interesting of like, you will age back to the age you were. And if you are too old, you will die. And I think I was like, that is a really interesting twist on something I have seen many times. And the other thing about not to do my own David Bullet points where I'm like. And here are all my thoughts. One thing I find very interesting about vamps and something I was really trying to think about. And I don't think I can think of another example. And I'm sure someone listening to this will find it. I cannot think of another vampire thing where the primary love story is between. Is a platonic soulmate's thing. Because usually vampires are very tortured lovers over time. And it's like very, we are this. You know, like, only Lovers Left Alive is like, we are this couple. We have stated that the Hunger is very. That Another great movie.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, Love that movie.

[Caroline Framke]

Interview with the Vampire. Like, all these very tortured lovers over decades.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, yes, yes, yes.

[Caroline Framke]

Or there's a mortal and a not mortal. Like Twilight Buffy. But the platonic, like, we are roommates and we've been hanging out for 20 years. Having a good time. Is very different. Different.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And cute. And here's my vampire.

[Caroline Framke]

They're very cute.

[Griffin Newman]

Who makes a stem. How do the stems get Made.

[Caroline Framke]

Well, that's where I am. Just like if we had a TV show, we could get into that movie.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Correct me if I'm wrong. Attempt to explain.

[David Sims]

Let's do some of the table setting of the story because we've been talking around different aspects.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I mean, I was going to do more of the dossier, but that's fine.

[David Sims]

We'll circle back to that. Yeah, yeah. So these two women been living and like St. Mark's Place for 20 years.

[Griffin Newman]

Silverstone and native New Yorker. Yes. And Stacy, played by Kristen Ritter, who.

[David Sims]

Goody often is dressed in Heckerling outfits. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

We've talked about from the 1840s, Heckerling.

[David Sims]

Sort of like modified Charlie Chaplin couture that you see her doing behind the scenes a lot. Silverstone does like a lot of variations on that. They have been vampire roommate friends for 20 years. They live a very simpatico sort of tandem life where they go out every night and try to enjoy themselves and are. But as we were saying, are kind of starting to feel the wear of having to keep up with these people. Why is the technology changing? Why are the trends changing? It's too hard to like keep this all going. I don't know if you folks caught this, but the first scene where they go to a bar. I think the introduction of Renfield, the band that's playing is. Is Molly Israel's band.

[Caroline Framke]

No.

[David Sims]

Daughter of Amy Heckerland.

[Griffin Newman]

That's fun.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Caroline Framke]

That's cute. And I also love that Renfield is their gay best friend.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes, yes. The great. Exact. Great Zach.

[David Sims]

Great Zach.

[Griffin Newman]

I said he was great.

[David Sims]

I know, but I'm building on that.

[Caroline Framke]

I'm co Signing it or doubling down. He's great.

[David Sims]

The great. He's three times great.

[Caroline Framke]

Did you get that?

[Ben Hosley]

Then look?

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's very.

[Caroline Framke]

The look with the hair.

[David Sims]

Yeah. Oh, it's tough, swoopy hair, like vague and hearty thing.

[Ben Hosley]

Oh, yes, yes.

[David Sims]

Yeah, for sure.

[Caroline Framke]

Which I feel like was very. Like LA was swamped by Ed Hardy at that time.

[David Sims]

Sigourney Weaver is the one who turned them. They have an uneven with her.

[Caroline Framke]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Her assistant guy is Todd Berry.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, very funny.

[David Sims]

You wish there was more of him.

[Griffin Newman]

Exactly. Todd Berry is a vampire. Is a good bit.

[David Sims]

And there's not enough money in the bank. He's with fangs and you're like, holy shit, give me this all day. But they have an uneasy relationship with her. They have found their sort of vampire chosen family in the support group. People like Vlad the Impaler don't want.

[Caroline Framke]

To feed off animals who are like, we will stick straws and rats and be exterminators at night.

[David Sims]

We found a more humane way to live.

[Caroline Framke]

Oh, no. It's sanguine anonymous.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, yeah, yeah, Right.

[David Sims]

And they work as late night janitors so that they can have access to.

[Caroline Framke]

Terminators to dead rats. Pretty, pretty solid.

[Griffin Newman]

There's plausibility everywhere.

[David Sims]

Like, all of this is like. These are. This is vampire you. Like, where it's like any vampire movie. Getting into the. What are the structures of their life? What are the systems they have put in place to be able to like, like exist and sort of slip by?

[Caroline Framke]

I mean, you know, and I feel like for especially a comedic vampire thing, it's like very what we do in the shadows, where it's like. And they are just living life in Staten island and occasionally they'll go to the dmv and that's just what they're doing.

[David Sims]

The brass tax of how you stay a vampire.

[Caroline Framke]

They.

[David Sims]

Kristen Ritter meets Dan Stevens. A handsome young man.

[Griffin Newman]

Yep.

[David Sims]

This is the tail end of his fopish era. Like this.

[Caroline Framke]

No, but this is like peak. Downton, I was gonna say.

[Griffin Newman]

So downton starts in 2010, like.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

And he's left it by 2012.

[David Sims]

I just think every movie after this, there was the sort of guest thing of like, that's Dan Stevens. He changed his look.

[Griffin Newman]

So the guest is 2014, one of the hottest screen performances of my lifetime. And I like Dan Stevens and I think he's been good in other stuff. But the guest was kind of one of those things where you're like, oh, a colossal movie star has arrived. Right.

[Caroline Framke]

But I feel like if more people had seen this film, they would have been like, oh, and he's also a free freak. Like, why is. He's not like, he's not really allowed to be as much of a freak in this one. That's not his role. But the fact that he's in it at all is kind of nuts.

[David Sims]

This guy has great taste. Is. I do too. And I think he's really good in this.

[Caroline Framke]

The fact that he chose to do it.

[David Sims]

This feels like really interesting. Doing a funny mocking of how he was perceived from Downton. Right?

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Whereas he's like, through this romantic lead.

[Caroline Framke]

With the blue eyes.

[David Sims]

Yes. And then after this, it's like, no, I'm zagging so hard, I'm gonna, like, reintroduce myself and I'm gonna look different and I'm gonna have a jawline.

[Caroline Framke]

So you're talking about Beauty and the Beast.

[David Sims]

Y And I'm going to play maniacs. Yes, of course.

[Caroline Framke]

Maniac.

[Griffin Newman]

He is the beast.

[Caroline Framke]

He is the beast.

[Griffin Newman]

We cannot deny he's the beast.

[David Sims]

I think he basically always hits now, but it feels like he would not even let himself do something like this today. That is like conjuring too much how he was originally perceived.

[Caroline Framke]

But I mean, at least it's like he's surrounded by batshitary. Like his father is Wallace Shawn, the head of Homeland Security.

[David Sims]

100% why he wanted to do it.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, yeah.

[David Sims]

Like this movie's insane and I get to be funny.

[Caroline Framke]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Right, right, right.

[David Sims]

And he's very charming in this.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah. So he and Kristen Ritter's characters fall in love.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Caroline Framke]

He is unfortunate, star crossed classic, the.

[David Sims]

Son of Homeland Security Van Helsing. And another thing I love throughout these Heckerling movies is they will set up some sort of dynamic and you're like, oh, so the whole movie is going to be keeping the two of them apart until the very end. I like that. Basically 45 minutes in, he confronts her.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. She, she reveals herself and then they just start to deal with it. Right.

[David Sims]

And it's like, like always more interesting when the conflict isn't like external, forced things keeping them apart. It's like what are the struggles of how to be together?

[Caroline Framke]

Well, it's funny when she's like, so what do you want? Like you want a girlfriend you can go hiking with? You want to like try new restaurants? Like I'm not going to be that. And he's like, I don't, I don't need to do that. Like I kind of love these. Like I think actually we are compatible in this way. It's not just that I like you. I don't need to go hiking. It's a very funny thing to say.

[David Sims]

The core tension of this movie that kicks in is a Weavers get increasingly out of control.

[Caroline Framke]

She starts, Weaver is a monster.

[David Sims]

She's a monster. And she keeps.

[Caroline Framke]

And she's sloppy.

[David Sims]

She's sloppy. She keeps eating people. She's giving vampires a bad name. Page Six is all over it. Right. But also Kristen Ritter gets pregnant which is so interesting.

[Caroline Framke]

Like again, you know, something that's kind.

[Griffin Newman]

Of not allowed in vampire logic. And they don't address it for a while but then they do address it.

[Caroline Framke]

Actually think, yeah, I think I, I didn't remember how the mechanics of it worked because I was like, is this like a Twilight thing where it's just like, well, she's special. So that's what happened. I of like that Malcolm McDowell. Vlad, as he's poking the. The apples, is just like, yeah, she's pregnant, and it won't survive because it can't. So give her a week.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, it'll. Right. Within a month, it's gone.

[Caroline Framke]

That just, like, vampires can get pregnant, but it's not. We can't sustain life, so it's not going to happen. So I was like, oh, that's actually just a very elegant way of dealing with it.

[David Sims]

Now, Alicia Silverstone has been lying to Kristen Brer. She's the one who turned her.

[Caroline Framke]

Stacy. Stacy. Perfect 90s name.

[David Sims]

Goody. Cold Stacy. That she was basically the same age.

[Caroline Framke]

As her, but, like, clearly is not.

[David Sims]

Has been alive since the 1800s.

[Caroline Framke]

1840.

[Griffin Newman]

She's turned in the 1840s.

[Ben Hosley]

But she. I don't think she turned.

[Caroline Framke]

She did not turn Stacy. No. Oh, so Ciceros turned both of them.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Caroline Framke]

But it's like, basically just to. What was it? There's like, a very funny line where she's trying to get them to dispose of her bodies. And Stacy just goes like, but we're only good for, like, trying stuff on and, like, clerical work like that. Yes, we are your assistants. Like, that's kind of the vibe a lot of good. But basically, I mean, you know, there's even a line, like, towards the very end where, you know, we'll get to. And I'll cry, where Goody is like, I was gonna walk into the sun before you got turned. Like, I was. I was pretty much done. But now we've had a great 20 years. But it's like, she got a friend is what happened with that.

[David Sims]

It's part of, like, what I like about Only Lovers Left Alive. And a lot of the vampire stuff that I like the most is, like, the curse of immortality and getting to this point where you're just like, I kind of wish I could die. This is unnatural. I have had to live through too much and lose too many people and also have, like, whatever hedonistic pleasures and joys I could, like, indulge in from a life without consequences. I run through them, what's left.

[Caroline Framke]

And the interesting thing, I feel like one reason why. I actually also don't love the scene that opened this podcast, Honest, where, you know, she gets mad at the blog and, you know, we are famously critics in the room, but where she gets frustrated about the blogs. Not that I disagree with the sentiment at all. And actually, the more I thought about, the more I was like, yeah, no, maybe I also will shuffle off this mortal coil if I don't have to like, check my phone ever again. But I don't think. I think I am glad that that's not the only motivation for her being, like, it's okay if I die, because that's not enough.

[David Sims]

No, no, no.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. That's a bit of a huge bummer.

[Caroline Framke]

Because also, like, at that point, she's also. We haven't even. God, I'm glad that you are, you know, down to talk for way too long about so many things because we haven't even talked about Richard Lewis as the love of her life.

[Griffin Newman]

We'll get to Richard Lewis. We'll get to Richard Lewis.

[Caroline Framke]

We'll get to.

[David Sims]

But like my, my, my grandmother of some age culturing this episode. Right, Right. A lot of my life is now centered around me helping her with devices. And it will often be this wild oscillation between, like, this is incredible. Thank God. This is amazing. I can't imagine having lived this long without the resource of being able to watch like any movie at any time in my bed on a thing the size of like a piece of paper. Right, Right. And the other half the time, she will say things to me like, I was never supposed to live this long. I can't learn all these things.

[Caroline Framke]

Right. Like, this is.

[David Sims]

What am I supposed to do?

[Caroline Framke]

Do?

[David Sims]

Why is this no longer a thing I can solve in a phone call or a letter? Why do I need to sign up for more stuff? Right. And I think it's more like fair feeling. There was that feeling of like, Alicia Silverstone's character is secretly 100 plus years old. Older. Right, Right.

[Caroline Framke]

And she's much older than the other one. And I, what I. One thing I like too, is that it's not like she's very nostalgic for the time when she was turned, which we find out, you know, she was brewing cholera and it was.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. It was a horrible time to be a poor person in New York, which.

[Caroline Framke]

I guess probably like. And that her go to dressing style is not that. It's actually the 20s when it seems like she was happiest when, like, things changed, electricity happened, people were out having fun, and she was like, that's what she's nostalgic for. And also the, you know, movies because. And I also, she's a cinephile in this in a way that's very heckerling. Right. So it's not that she was always resistant to change. No. It's that she enjoyed the change she got and then it just kept happening.

[David Sims]

Well, so Kristen Ritter, inside her coffin has photos of like late 80s, early 90s pinup boyfriends. Right, Right. She's got Michael J. Fox and shit inside her coffin.

[Griffin Newman]

Right. Her taste has remained, you know, static.

[David Sims]

Right. It's the moment she was turned. Right. And it's basically like that feeling of this kind of point in a person's life in between your 20s and your 30s, where you're like, I'm out of the control of childhood, and there's a level of responsibilities have not really kicked in. And is my life mostly centered around, like, getting drunk and going out with friends and having dinner and having fun and all this sort of shit, which is what both of them kind of yearn for. Right. More than a specific era of history, it's the point in time where they felt that way for the first time, which for Alicia Silverstone, because her lifespan is so much longer and she was born into a culture that never allowed people to have an era like that, that it makes sense that the 20s would have been the first time. That was basically like the equivalent of her being 26 and also culture kind of exploding for the first time. And she's nostalgic for feeling that way for the first time. In the same way that Kristen Ritter is about, like, 1992. And Alicia Silverstone has been lying about them being on the same timeline and pretending they're in the same place because, as you said, basically finding someone else. She can relate to this hard, in a platonic way. Gave her the motivation to be like, I guess it is still fun to be alive. Life. I want to do this, but we have to be on the exact same page about all of this. And when Kristen Ritter gets pregnant and she realizes the baby is going to sort of, like, destroy itself, she realizes there's, like, a two birds with one stone solution, which is, I need to kill Sigourney to sever the stem, which will solve her. Like her.

[Griffin Newman]

It'll free her.

[David Sims]

It will free her.

[Griffin Newman]

You know, they'll revert back to the.

[Caroline Framke]

To the age they would have been if they had kept.

[Griffin Newman]

It will be the end of me.

[David Sims]

So Kristen Ritter is going to go from 20 to 40. And at least she turns 40 in.

[Caroline Framke]

This movie, which is also, like, very specific that she is turning 40 and that when she finds out she's pregnant, that's also such a cute little scene. I feel like Kristen plays it so well, too, and so does Alicia, because she said it being like, oh, I talked to Vlad, and you're just pregnant, and it'll be fine. She's so excited, and she's like, oh, shit, you want the baby? And I just didn't even consider that might be something you'd want. She's like, well, I'm 40. When am I going to get another chance? Like, that's the reason.

[David Sims]

Yeah, it's a good line. And Alicia Silverstone, like, does the math and is like, I can solve this, but the price of it is I will revert to my real age, which will be dead. It is basically a suicide mission. She has to sacrifice herself to this unknowing to everyone else around her. She's not letting Krysten Ritter know because Krysten Ritter thinks that she's going to turn 40 as well. I always kind of like this dynamic of two characters thinking they're on the same page about something and one person just sort of quietly, stoically suffering in advance of like, I'm ready to do this. And I don't want them to know that I'm doing this for them. Them because they will try to talk me out of it.

[Caroline Framke]

And I feel like, you know, Stacy kind of does suspect it that, you know, they're not quite the same age because good references are not, you know, with it. She loves a drop ways too much, even though, you know, you can only say Kieran Knightley wore it for so long.

[Griffin Newman]

She always claims that she learned something from the History Channel. And there's a really great gag. Every time I watched the History Channel, it was just about Hitler. That is, which is what the History Channel is.

[Caroline Framke]

But in this, it is still true. It was. That's. That's. I was so glad you wrote because I was like, that bit is not that great until that line.

[David Sims]

And the bit, the early step of the bit, which also feels very heck curling, is like the way her old timeiness kicks in is she just wants to stop in random corners in New York City and explain.

[Caroline Framke]

Remember when it was right, there used.

[David Sims]

To be this here.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, right, right.

[David Sims]

Which is like, I think how like a lifelong New Yorker like Amy Heckerling feels. It's certainly how you and I feel.

[Griffin Newman]

Absolutely. And talk my favorite things like, ah, there used to be like a dentist office there. And it's like, who cares, David?

[David Sims]

Right. She's doing the 1920s version of that. And Christopher was like, how do you know this? And she goes like, history Channel. As if History Channel.

[Griffin Newman]

What do you want to say?

[Ben Hosley]

It just doesn't seem like she was very savvy when it comes to real estate. Because if you've been around that long.

[Caroline Framke]

Get you in that apartment, be off.

[Ben Hosley]

The fraking park or something. Come on.

[Griffin Newman]

In the. The thick of it in St. Mark's Place or whatever.

[Ben Hosley]

Or even. I just love the eternal life thing of like you deposit a penny and then suddenly. And then like a hundred years later you're like super rich.

[Caroline Framke]

I feel like it's very like Interview with the Vampire is kind of like that, where they're like, we have figured it out now we own.

[David Sims]

But it's true.

[Griffin Newman]

She has always been kind of like middle income. It seems like she's never a masked.

[Ben Hosley]

Great working as like exterminators.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[Ben Hosley]

If anything, she should have.

[Caroline Framke]

You're making good money.

[Ben Hosley]

She should have made it like some investments, put together a portfolio.

[David Sims]

A purposeful statement, though, Ben, because it's like the whole point is they are relishing being stuck in a stage before you need to start to make future decisions. Oh, that's interesting in that way. Right? Like, it's that span of years where you're just like, at one point am I told I need to start figuring out. And they are stuck in like decades of. That's for later.

[Caroline Framke]

Also, that's one thing that I was thinking about when, you know, she does her little blog rant and then she very shortly thereafter realizes that she's gonna have to die if Stacy's gonna like, be happy and whatever is that, you know, for me, I was looking at it being like, but you did just have like a very fulfilling moment where you got your ex boyfriend who's now, you know, I will say a hunky ACLU lawyer who is, you know, down and ready to help. And you got all these people.

[Griffin Newman]

You're saying Richard L. Lewis now is hunky.

[David Sims]

I think, well, in 2012, he is now.

[Caroline Framke]

I mean, he's hunkier in the present timeline than he is in that wig in the 60s.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, the wig is.

[Caroline Framke]

I just. And I also like.

[Griffin Newman]

It's not a major studio.

[Caroline Framke]

I just love that that guy played by Richard Lewis is the object of Alicia Silverstone's like, utter.

[David Sims]

If you look at the man of Heckerling's life, and we have not acknowledged he also had a very long relationship with Bronson pincho in the 90s.

[Caroline Framke]

80S. Sure.

[David Sims]

Richard Lewis, you. It makes sense that you're like Amy Heckerling when she was 12. Probably saw him do Stand up on Late Night and was like, that is my greatest crush of all time.

[Griffin Newman]

The thing, right, that I like about Richard Lewis, I like pretty much everything about Richard Loose, but in this movie is that he's like, I'M playing as a kind of a tired, sad guy. Like, he's an old hippie. Right. Like, hi, Richard Lewis. You know, like, no, he's. He's quite locked in being not that funny.

[David Sims]

And Richard Lewis also was incredibly good at just maintaining his look. Right. Like, you even watch the final season of Curb where he is, like, so close to death, almost was not on the final season and dies, like, before it even premieres. And you're like, man, he for 70 years, kept the hairstyle, you know, he likes, and the all black outfits. Outfits and the attitude, like, in this sort of vampiric way.

[Caroline Framke]

All right.

[Griffin Newman]

He's like a nightclub comic forever. Right. You know, he's. Do you like Richard Lewis, Ben, you're making a little face. Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

I think the thing for me when I remember that that's. This is the way the movie was going is that I had a moment where I was like, but goody, you just found another gear. Like, this is some. You can help people. Like, you change people's mind. You. You like.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[Caroline Framke]

You connect people. And so I had a minute where I was like, oh, do you really have. Like, this is. It's not all just.

[Griffin Newman]

It comes a little bit out of nowhere when she starts talking about her kids and stuff.

[Caroline Framke]

Well, that.

[Griffin Newman]

Not out of nowhere, out of nowhere, because there's the scene where she, like, looks at old pictures and stuff.

[Caroline Framke]

It's layered it, but, like, I just. Like, that backstory is so good, I think, but exactly.

[Griffin Newman]

It's just resonant.

[Caroline Framke]

Anyway, it's kind of weird that she's telling Van. Dr. Van Helsing?

[Griffin Newman]

Why not? He's a nice man.

[Caroline Framke]

Was he a nice man?

[Griffin Newman]

Well, he's interested in her in a way that most aren't. Right. He actually cares about vampires.

[Caroline Framke]

Sure. And he is like, here's a new bit of lore I didn't know.

[David Sims]

Here's a great runner in this movie.

[Griffin Newman]

And he's learning to be sympathetic to them as she changes hearts.

[David Sims]

And other than with Sigourney Weaver, this movie constantly represents the idea that, like, any complicated dynamic can be worked out through a very good conversation. Right?

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, sure.

[David Sims]

And, like, in a way that doesn't feel like sloppy, like, whatever. Wave it off. Screenwrite. It's like, can she appeal to Dr. Van Helsing as a person and get her to, like, consider her as a person rather than as, like, an abstract enemy? In the same way that, like, Dan Stevens and Krysten Ritter can figure it out. And the Richard Lewis thing, when he's introduced, they're like, exterminating. At a hospital where his wife, Mary Lou Henner, is, like, in the latest stages of cancer, and Alicia Silverstone clocks him. This was, like, her greatest boyfriend ever. Her, like, political radical college student boyfriend from the 70s who she had to dump because she was starting to get to the point, I think she says it's seven years.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like, after seven years, I have to acknowledge I'm not aging.

[David Sims]

And that he wanted.

[Caroline Framke]

He wanted a family, and she couldn't do that. Which also, like, there's a lot of stuff about motherhood in here, too.

[David Sims]

Yep.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. In a way, that kind of stuff doesn't make sense. That she wouldn't know the deal with pregnancy. You'd think it would have come off at some point, but whatever, it doesn't matter.

[David Sims]

Richard Lewis sees her, is like, how is this possible? And she says, like, oh, what are you talking about? And then very quickly creates the COVID.

[Caroline Framke]

Story of, like, there must be a basic cover story for them. It's like, I must be the one recognizing the daughter. Right?

[David Sims]

Right. And I'm like, okay, so the movie's gonna be 90 minutes of her lying and pretending that she's the daughter. And then once again, the conversation comes much earlier than you would expect.

[Griffin Newman]

They dispense with it pretty quickly where.

[David Sims]

She'S like, I'm just gonna fucking own up to you. He's smart enough to figure it out, much in the same way that Dan Stevens was.

[Caroline Framke]

She stops a rob and. Yeah, there's no way to.

[David Sims]

And she. And she says, I could, like, hypnotize you. I think you deserve better. They have this really interesting emotional conversation about, like, why he. She had to leave him and said, you deserve to meet someone else.

[Caroline Framke]

And did you meet. Did you meet someone amazing? And he said, yeah, I did.

[David Sims]

And you're in the zone where you're like, so they're spending so much time together is the idea that they're setting up that now that. That he's lived a full life with his wife and she is sadly going to pass away, that the door will be open for maybe her and him to be together. Alicia Silverstone and Richard Lewis.

[Caroline Framke]

And it's just not really. I mean, I also appreciate that there's never actually a moment, because I had a minute where I was like, oh, my God, is he gonna hit on her? Because even though she's the. He thinks she's the daughter, and that never happens.

[David Sims]

No, he's not.

[Caroline Framke]

He's just like, your mom was great. Yeah.

[David Sims]

And he's holding A candle for his wife, who is still alive.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

And Alicia Silverstone the similar way. Like. Like, I think it's not that she has a death wish, but she realizes, like, I could do two great things for the two people I have cared the most about in my entire life. And also, as she says, I have lived so much. Like, I've had my fill. Like, not that I resent still being alive, but I. Like, I've been not greedy, but, like, I've been very lucky with how much I've gotten to experience.

[Caroline Framke]

Well, yes, it hurts. Explaining that the reason why she begged to be turned into a vampire because the, you know, people who are begging to be turned to a vampire is such. Also like, a very, you know, common trope in vampire stories. Like, people like, you know, like, Renfield in this. Like, he's like, awaken me. And they're like, that's not how it works. Or like, you know, people. Buffy, there's always, like, groupies or whatever. You know, people always want this or they think they want this. But her reason is also completely different from any anyone else. It's not like, oh, I just want to, like, not die. She's like, I have two kids who will be orphans if I die, and I would rather not leave them alone.

[David Sims]

Right. And she talks about that her kids lived until like, 80 and 99. I think she says her daughter set the record for the oldest living person.

[Caroline Framke]

It was just like, yeah, it was unprecedented at the time.

[David Sims]

And now she has gone on to live like another hundred years past that.

[Caroline Framke]

But she was like, but the only thing I wanted to do do with this was raise them.

[David Sims]

And I did it and I did that. So, like, what is it now? Right.

[Caroline Framke]

And I just. I had never. I really, like. I don't love, you know, all the. Some of the vampire stuff is cheesy in this in a way where I'm like, okay, you know, I don't. I don't need like a Bloodsuckers Anonymous situation, but I get it.

[David Sims]

Sure.

[Caroline Framke]

But I do feel like some of the. Like, she. Heck, early clearly did a ton of research. I mean, the vampire bat thing alone. Or she's like, we have an enzyme in our spit. And I just spit into him. I was like, know, you have done some Wikipedia whole research and I respect it. But some of her twists on the vampire thing, I think are really interesting and smart in a way that ties back to the themes she's the most interested in, like aging, motherhood. Relevance.

[David Sims]

Yeah, those. Those are the big three in this movie. Right. And they all track really well onto vampire history and our cultural understanding of them. And yeah, I just like, it was one of those things where as you said, like, first 30 minutes I'm like, okay, there's funny jokes in this.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I get the concept. Is this going to be sustainable?

[David Sims]

Next 30 minutes I'm like, fuck, I care about these characters. And the last 30 minutes I'm like, she has set up all the pieces on the game board really well and really effortlessly for now, this all being like perfectly set up for a very effective finale. Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

And it's definitely a kind of movie where I feel like she's so, like, it's so close to getting all the tonal mismatches. Right. Like, I feel like, you know, I, she, she definitely. She clearly loves like a voiceover, an exposition dump, etc.

[David Sims]

This movie starts with quite a clumsy one. Like it, it really like.

[Caroline Framke]

And it starts it off on a note where you're like, oh, okay, here we go. Like, I'm sure I, I can tell that Ben turned this on this morning was like, okay, right?

[David Sims]

Because it's starts and you're just like, is this like a student film?

[Caroline Framke]

It's just, it's a little like. And then, you know, then the 60s happened. I was like, oh my God. We're just, we're just doing, we're just.

[David Sims]

Doing the decade photoshopped, like pictures and like dumb motion graphics.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, right. But it's because she's like, I, she clearly has so many ideas and I only have so much time. This is the most efficient way to do it. Of course. Then I went to see Sinners yesterday and I was like, well, that's how you do it. He had opening thing like that was. It's crazy beautiful.

[David Sims]

But also he had same thing in Black Panther. He is kind of the king of doing that.

[Griffin Newman]

The like two minute animated in an interesting way intro that's like, got it, Got it. Let's go.

[David Sims]

Yeah, right. He's figured out how to make that about as elegant as you possibly can and, and successfully stick a bunch of info in your head that allows the rest of the movie to mostly be emotional.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I just. What was I gonna say? Oh, actually I was, I was reading David Sims's interview with Ryan Coogler.

[Griffin Newman]

Great guy. Really incredible guy to talk to.

[Ben Hosley]

David's a great guy.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah. You know, what a fun guy.

[David Sims]

We all love David, don't we?

[Caroline Framke]

But I was, I was interested. I feel like something. I don't remember why I thought this maybe. No I do. I opened my phone and I saw it. One reason why I think he really encapsulated something that I always, I feel like is the thing I liked about vampires and does come up in every single adaptation. And he really summed it up quite well in your interview. Vampires still have so much of their humanity left, their knowledge. And also they can present as something that's not what they truly are.

[Griffin Newman]

But I mean, Sinners is partly about vampires being great lovers of art, right? Like, and being drawn to like artistic sort of like like framers in the fucking force. They're like, yeah, like, oh my God, someone is speaking to.

[David Sims]

They can experience. They can steal it and repeat it in a way.

[Caroline Framke]

Sure.

[Griffin Newman]

And like. And like, like there's. It just rocks that that's sort of like he's thinking about vampires. And like he hits on that, right. Rather than just like, it's scary that they suck your blood. Which is scary.

[Caroline Framke]

Which is very scary.

[David Sims]

I want to keep that sexy and a little sexy.

[Griffin Newman]

I mean, my favorite thing about interviewing Ryan was when first name Bas. Yeah, he's. He's my best friend. Was when I was like, you know, can I bring up, you know, From Dusk Till dawn, obviously the most obvious sort of like analog.

[David Sims]

He was like, can I bring up Puss in Boots, the Last Wish? Well, that's exactly it, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Where he was like, dude, I obviously love that movie. I love Robert Rodriguez. And when I talked to Robert about From Dusk Till dawn, he was like, well, my biggest influence was Spike Lee. Like, I was just trying to copy Spike Lee. I didn't know about this and that or the other thing. I was a 25 year old or whatever age I was when I'm making these movies series. And I love Spike Lee, I love do the Right Thing is like a 24 hour movie. And then Coogler's like, and I love From Dust Till Dawn. But what I love is the faculty, because the faculty is two genres getting mushed together in a way that shouldn't work. And does like, that's my bigger inspiration.

[David Sims]

Is not just such a historian is so smart about the lineage of these things and what he's in conversation with, but also that he's like a omnivore, that his tastes are so varied. And you're like, this guy does just find, that's the thing, interesting aspects in everything.

[Griffin Newman]

And then so he's talking about the faculty and he's like. And then obviously inside Luyne Davis Lovers rock. The Steve McQueen thing. And then he's like. And then the biggest thing for me is this Twilight Zone episode called the Last Rights of Jeff Myrtle Bank. And I'm like, what's that? You know, like. And he's like, oh, it's about a small town, you know, that you said. And like. And then he's like, and Salem's Lot. The book, not the movie. I've never seen the movie except for the one shot. And I'm like, the shot of the kid floating in the window. He's like, yeah, the one shot everyone's seen from Salem's Lot.

[David Sims]

You know, remember what interview it was not to give credit to an interview that you didn't do, but someone else speaking to Ryan Coogler, he. He talked about how he was, I think, talking to Goranson as they were like, plotting out the movie about just, like, what sort of happened to the blues like there. I'm making this movie about spoilers for sinners. The biggest movie in America probably still has a big influence by the time this episode comes out. But this, like, lineage he's creating in the history of music and, you know. Right. The. The slipstream of all this stuff, right?

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

And he was just everything to the book. There's a big jump, right? Yes. You say this in the interview very wisely. And yes. And he was just like, I'm, like, trying to fill this gap between, like, the blues and hip hop and funk and, like, what is this missing piece here? And Gornson was like, grunch, nice grunge was like the 90s big wave, kind of capturing the spirit of the blues. And he was just like, I've heard the three Nirvana sounds that are on the radio all the time. And now he's like, all in on crunch now.

[Griffin Newman]

Good. A lot of good in there. Right?

[David Sims]

And it's like drug addicts, like, struggling with their sadness and being owned by corporations and, like.

[Caroline Framke]

And I mean, that. That mid movie sequence, you know, that Warner just like. You know, just all the different music era eras for. It's so impressive on 10,000 different levels, but it's also like very of a vampire movie. Like, you see all these different eras when that happened.

[Griffin Newman]

And I was completely. I saw the film very early, not to brag, because I was interviewing Ryan Cooper. Did I mention that?

[Caroline Framke]

David Sims.

[Griffin Newman]

And when that. So I was completely unprepared for that sequence. I really hadn't watched the trailer for Sinners. I just knew there was a. I didn't.

[Caroline Framke]

I didn't. I didn't even know that that sequence was in there.

[Griffin Newman]

I saw yesterday that's awesome that it caught you off guard or whatever. It's a sequence you're like, damn, he, he, he rocked that. But then you're also like, damn B boys spinning around while blues music play, you know, in an old saloon. Could suck. Like, could not work.

[David Sims]

It's a humongous swing. And part of what I think is so thrilling about the movie and has really captured people is it's the kind of sequence where you watch it and when it starts, you're holding your breath and you're like, he is so close to this up. And if he this up, the movie does not recover from this.

[Caroline Framke]

It's like, it's crazy that that's the be like that things escalate from there. Like, how is that not like. I mean, it is a peak, but then the things escalate from there. But it is the kind of sequence that underlines why he picked vampires. You cannot do that se. You can't do that sequence of the zombie movie. Like, it doesn't open a saloon. Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Zombie movies are.

[David Sims]

So what you were going to say, we should get a saloon. We're going to open a. Was that what you were going to say?

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, that is what he's going to say.

[Griffin Newman]

No, because I was just talking about zombie movies with my friend who are.

[Caroline Framke]

Asking, like, zombies are not my monsters.

[Griffin Newman]

And I was like, you know, with zombies, it's like it takes six, 40 years for Danny Boyle to be like, what if they ran? And people are like, hold on there, cowboys. I'm used to behaving one way. You know, it's like, there's not a lot of variation with zombie stuff.

[David Sims]

You know what. And this is.

[Griffin Newman]

And it reflects usually just one kind of thing, which is a. An apocalypse. Yeah.

[David Sims]

I am so much more innately drawn to zombies. Like, if you tell me that someone's making a zombie movie, I'm excited.

[Caroline Framke]

It's because they. The world has to be different. I don't know. Because the whole world has to be zombies. And the whole thing about vampires is that they're trying to be, you know, they're trying to pass unnoticed and have their space. And have their space and have a good sexy time.

[Griffin Newman]

I think Iing tomb interesting if, like.

[Ben Hosley]

Zombies could just, like, live in the world and, like, just eat leftover dead people.

[Caroline Framke]

Like tor cover your ears years CW show. I zombie does try to do that.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Caroline Framke]

I feel like Warm Bodies does a.

[David Sims]

Sort of version of that as well.

[Caroline Framke]

But it's like, there's only so much you can do with that. Like, with vampires, it's very much like they have one face. It's a human face. They have another. It's the vampire face. And they have enough of their memories and they have all their previous knowledge. Like, they don't suddenly factory reset in the same way that other monsters do. Like, I mean, in werewolves are kind of that where it's like once a month, but you. You. It's involuntary. But vampires give you so much room to work with in terms of a person's memory, what their relationship to the world is, how that changes. It's.

[David Sims]

Yes, it's much richer for storytelling. There's more baked in. That has interesting potential. I think. I do like societal collapse and apocalypse stories and, like, things that get to test human behavior, like zombies inevitably are that. I think I also like the iconography of rotting people. Like, I think if you show me a drawing of a zombie, I'm more engaged the face, like, of a cartoon than like a guy with fangs and blood.

[Caroline Framke]

You're a lot of rotting person, but.

[David Sims]

Yet you love rot. I love rot, but yet, like. And I think our buddy David Reese said this on the 20 Years later episode. He was like, I can't think of a type of movie I love more with a lower percentage of movies I actually like, you know, And I think, like, I will be pleasantly, like, entertained by some junky, shitty zombie movie. But, like, unquestionably, there are more vampire movies that I think are capital G great than zombie movies. And yet I hear someone's making a vampire movie. I'm like, again, I hear someone's making a zombie movie. And I'm like, yeah, even if it's a 2 out of 10.

[Caroline Framke]

That's interesting. I mean, I feel like, you know, because zombie movies are about the humans, they're not about the zombies.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Caroline Framke]

Because the zombies don't have thoughts.

[David Sims]

That's what I like that it sort of creates a template for an ensemble.

[Griffin Newman]

That is the reason for. But vampires being good, obviously.

[Caroline Framke]

Vampire stories are so still very human.

[David Sims]

But character studies.

[Griffin Newman]

The humans themselves are of secondary importance for sure. You know, they may be doing an interview with them.

[Caroline Framke]

They could be interviewing them.

[David Sims]

Yes, right. That's also good interview you do kind of like with cooler.

[Griffin Newman]

Perhaps I should interview.

[Caroline Framke]

Maybe you did interview a vampire.

[Ben Hosley]

What do they call humans in this movie?

[Caroline Framke]

Day players.

[David Sims]

That is. That is a film production joke. Day players are what you call an actor doing the one day who's only doing the one day. Yes, it's clever. To your point, she realizes that she can get this rush from Helping other people. And it sort of gives her a reason to live. But I think it's a really good unsolvable dilemma, which is like, she's found this new pap in her step, and yet she realizes the single best version of that, that involves her dying.

[Caroline Framke]

And she also. Yeah, it doesn't seem to bother her. She just has to adjust. And she's also like, my friend is about to have the opportunity I already had.

[David Sims]

I gotta give you.

[Caroline Framke]

Raise a child she wants.

[David Sims]

Right. And so she then also very generously is like, I can bring in horny Justin Kirk and save Richard Lewis's life. He's just pretty hot in this.

[Griffin Newman]

Marry me.

[Caroline Framke]

I like that. We're just like the energy on the side of the room. We like. Give us a second.

[David Sims]

I have a moment with eyeliner.

[Caroline Framke]

Justin Clerk Kirk, Ukrainian.

[David Sims]

He.

[Caroline Framke]

He emphasizes over and over again, that's funny.

[Griffin Newman]

That's a funny joke every time.

[David Sims]

I just think it's funny that that character is basically her being like, here's all the. I'm not interested in with vampires. And let me one character. And have someone very charismatically play the most annoying guy in the world.

[Griffin Newman]

The most stereotypically annoying vampirey guy wants to. With me.

[Caroline Framke]

It says juicy on her butt, and I am going to take her at her word.

[David Sims]

And he's got the, like, Nosferatu teeth that don't look cool.

[Caroline Framke]

My roommate was like, why does he have gopher teeth? And I was like, fuck, they are gopher teeth.

[David Sims]

They're. They're really hard to understand. Yes.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, the little. The little gopher teeth. But that. I. I'm sure you have talked. I did listen to your Fast Times episode with Sinner star Lila Kirk.

[David Sims]

Well done there.

[Caroline Framke]

But you. I'm sure you've talked about many a comedic sex scene at this point.

[David Sims]

Point.

[Caroline Framke]

Because Heckerling likes those. And they're a couple in this one. Like, there's the sort of, you know, Stacy and Ritter and Dan Stevens rolling off the bed and they're levitating kind of deal. But then, like, the. Absolutely.

[David Sims]

It's.

[Caroline Framke]

I mean, it's not great, but just.

[David Sims]

Pull it off well enough in a way that makes you wish it looked a little better.

[Caroline Framke]

It does actually remind me of one of the bits I like in this where she's just, like, levitating along the street. And Goody's like, oh, my God, you can't do that. She's like, it's New York. No one gives a. I will. Every time. That joke.

[Griffin Newman]

Someone levitating.

[Caroline Framke]

That joke is you know, could not be more bread and butter. Classic. Oh, it's New York. No one cares. It's true every time.

[David Sims]

Always funny. You were right.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah, but that. But the Justin Kirk scene where he's where basically good. He's like, before I die, I'm going to give Richard Lewis the option of would his wife like, would he. Would he rather his wife become a vampire and live than die as she is going to.

[Griffin Newman]

To.

[Caroline Framke]

And he thinks about it for approximately two seconds and says, yes, please. And she sends Justin Kirk in there for.

[Griffin Newman]

To ravish her. Essentially.

[Caroline Framke]

It's. That scene is insane. I got so drunk out. Yes, it's very. And then, you know, you have the comedic sort of like knocking on it, being like, it doesn't take that long.

[Griffin Newman]

You are milking it.

[Caroline Framke]

Like once he like, you know, does the slit across his stomach and is like. But I'm like, then Mary Henner comes out looking unbelievably hot.

[David Sims]

I'm gonna. She's technically checked my notes that I have from the Johnny Dangerously episode I'm seeing. I still have written here. Hum and a hum.

[Griffin Newman]

A A.

[Caroline Framke]

May we just reiterate. And also did you clock that the dress she's in is a redone hospital gown?

[David Sims]

I did, yes.

[Caroline Framke]

Very well done from Mona May on that one fits her like a glove. And she brings them, you know, brings them in and that's the last we see of him. But I'm like, that's a fine send off. I was like. But I was also like. She was like, you have to promise to like have her only eat animals and stuff. And then she comes out looking like that. And I'm like, you just made a new Sigourney. Like, she is not gonna play nice.

[Griffin Newman]

Again in the TV version of this. There's stuff to plumb this.

[David Sims]

As much as I hope and pray this is not the final film she ever makes, there is something in how much she brings back so much of her history of Heckerling Company players down to like Brian Backer who's rat in Fast Times.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes.

[David Sims]

Being.

[Griffin Newman]

Being the dentist who gets eaten briefly. It was nice to see him.

[David Sims]

Taylor Negron back. Wallace Sean back. Mary Lou Hen are back. Alicia Silverstone.

[Griffin Newman]

Obviously, I don't think because Kirsten Johnson's.

[David Sims]

In, she feels like she should have been weird.

[Griffin Newman]

Any of the others.

[Caroline Framke]

Well, it definitely feels like a part where she was like, I like you and you should be in it. But then she's kind of doing a not good British accent. I'm kind of like, you didn't because they. It's clear this is a waste.

[David Sims]

But I'm glad to see things of. She obviously wants Wallace Sean to be.

[Caroline Framke]

Van Helsing and she wants someone maybe comically taller.

[David Sims]

Dollar Right. And then a third wants to do it. And now you need to figure out like who is the woman that Wallace Sean could have made Dan Stevens with.

[Caroline Framke]

It's not Kirsten Johnson. I was happy to see her.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Caroline Framke]

But it was a waste.

[David Sims]

But I should be like Joanna Lumley or something.

[Caroline Framke]

But it is the kind of thing where I'm like, if Heckerling. I kept making movies after that, like she would have been in there 100. Well, she. Maybe she was in like a suburgatory. Because I know Heckerling went on to do a bunch of regatory.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Caroline Framke]

That feels like something.

[David Sims]

Did Carrie Diaries.

[Griffin Newman]

Did the Suburgatory arc a lot of Red Oaks. Yeah. Ah, yes, Red Oaks.

[David Sims]

And I feel like there's one of the big show she did a bunch of episodes on. Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

So but yeah, but it's definitely.

[Griffin Newman]

She directed the Hot Girls episode at the Office. But we're not talking about it.

[Caroline Framke]

We're not talking about it. David.

[David Sims]

She did a Quibi show. Of course. You remember you commissioned that, David called royalties that I've heard is good and is still watchable somewhere.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, cool. I mean that's awesome.

[David Sims]

Everything I commissioned six Red Oaks, one Suburgatory.

[Griffin Newman]

She did a rake.

[David Sims]

Three Rake with the steak on his face.

[Griffin Newman]

Steak on his face.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah. I didn't. I hope it's not a curtain call. But it is notable also because again, she didn't have a budget and that they were all like, yeah, we'll come do it. Like we'll go to Detroit or wherever.

[David Sims]

Absolutely.

[Caroline Framke]

And we'll do it.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Caroline Framke]

For clearly no money.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. 37 days in Detroit. But you know, some New York locations. No question.

[David Sims]

And it. It is often a real Achilles heel of the American filmography that we keep butting up against as she makes movies set in specific cities and then is told she cannot film in those places. And you have this weird kind of non specific doubling that is often then married to what is clearly two days of establishing shots that often don't really have the primary actors in them or only have them in one or two. This there is like she got her.

[Caroline Framke]

She got her people.

[David Sims]

She did. She got enough days of actual actors in front of real New York places to make it count, to mesh well.

[Griffin Newman]

Just to tell you some other things before we move. Move on to the end of Vamps first choice for Sisters was Michelle Pfeiffer. Liked the script, but she said I could never be your vampire was busy doing Dark Shadows.

[David Sims]

Well, well, well.

[Griffin Newman]

She saw Dan Stevens in a play with Judi Dench called Hay Fever. And then she does saw a lot of stuff in England because she was making I could never be your woman. And like, that's where she first noticed him. And then Downton Abbey, you know, helped him be. And yes, indeed, they. They did shoot in Detroit. They did shoot on a type, but I'm just making sure I caught everything here. And it was unserious. Unceremoniously dumped, essentially straight to dvd. I mean, vod. But it did, according to jj, it was released just at the AMC Burbank A. Oh, you may have gone to a press screening or something, to be.

[David Sims]

Clear, but maybe Family story checks out, though. It does sound right.

[Caroline Framke]

And we went to Cinefamily a lot.

[David Sims]

At that time, but that's not out.

[Caroline Framke]

Of the question for sure. I worked up there at the time. I worked in North Hollywood then.

[Griffin Newman]

And of course, as we noted, she has done a bunch of tv, but she's not. Has said that she's not particularly thrilled making episodic tv.

[Caroline Framke]

She's still, like, writing all the time. She was going to make a claim.

[David Sims]

Opening in the West End this summer.

[Griffin Newman]

Supposed to be God awful.

[David Sims]

She was doing it off Broadway with dove Cameron in 2020 with the hope it would transfer. And then everything shut down.

[Caroline Framke]

Right.

[David Sims]

It is now finally opening in the West End. And as we alluded to earlier, it was recently announced that she is executive producing a Clueless continuation show for Peacock with Alicia Silverstone.

[Caroline Framke]

But it's. But it's actually going to be written by the gospel people.

[David Sims]

Right? Right. It seems like it's a little bit more of a John Carpenter and she'll be the.

[Griffin Newman]

I think so.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Caroline Framke]

The Margaret Collin of the show.

[David Sims]

Like, look, three years ago, they announced that Peacock was developing a Clueless reboot that was like Clueless Riverdale where Cher is missing and Dion has to solve her murder. And it was going to be dark and gritty and like. Like, this sounds like the much better universe of things, but it is, like, a little bit. It's a. It's a slightly damning statement that, like, Amy Heckerling is here regularly doing interviews and talking about how much she wishes she could get to make her stuff. And the two things she can do are just circling back to Clueless.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Can I do this as a musical juice? Right. Can I. Yeah. Can I get A paycheck for doing this.

[Caroline Framke]

Well, I think at some point she's just like, if you're gonna to want to redo this, I'd rather be a part of the residuals. Like I'd rather get a piece. Of course.

[Griffin Newman]

Let her have her money. I. I don't begrudge Alicia Silverstone doing the legacy cool either. What's up?

[Caroline Framke]

Well, no, I've seen, you know, I haven't seen every heckerling, but what other ones are New York based?

[Griffin Newman]

Well, talkings, but they are all Vancouver. It's not really shot in.

[David Sims]

Right. New York Loser is nyu, but shot in Toronto.

[Caroline Framke]

Okay. Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Of course I can. Johnny Dangerously is New York. You know, got gangster.

[David Sims]

It's so sound stagey that it. It doesn't have the same problem.

[Griffin Newman]

So basically Clueless and Fast Times, her most famous works are the. The LA ones. I Could Never Be a Woman is also of course set in just. Just a. And then the European vacation film, this might stun you is actually set all over Europe.

[Caroline Framke]

Europe. And what is crazy is, does that include Britain or.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, there's a whole British section. And then Germany and France.

[David Sims]

Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

We had not Brexit.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[David Sims]

But that film actually like did filming in five different countries.

[Griffin Newman]

It was a nightmare.

[David Sims]

Like a nightmare. But it is. You watch it and you're like, holy. They flew everyone everywhere.

[Caroline Framke]

But it's really interesting that this one, you know, if it's her last, which I hope it's not, but it's so much like she's like, I want to tell the entire story. Like not the entire story of New York, obviously 1840 wasn't the beginning of New York. But she's like, I am going to tell you about how this city has evolved. And Goody is. It's because I feel like so many other vampires will like travel and they'll go other places. And Goody's like, I've got everything I need. It's very native New Yorker. Right, Got it.

[David Sims]

I saw the Shrouds recently, which I loved and I think is already being kind of slept on and misunderstood. Good. And of course I wasn't a huge fan of.

[Griffin Newman]

I'm sorry. I like the themes a lot, I think. I. I just not did not find it to be the most involving movie. I. I like the theme.

[David Sims]

I like. I found it very funny.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure, but it's kind of funny.

[David Sims]

It. It is to me a perfect example.

[Griffin Newman]

I want to defend it because I love him and I, I look, it's a very interesting movie.

[David Sims]

He is so Important to me. I don't think it's anywhere near his top tier of films. And yet I walked out of it and said that's kind of a perfect film if we're unlucky enough that he never gets to make another one. And it feels in a way similar. And some other filmmakers where they're just sort of like, it has been getting harder and harder for me to get stuff made and I have to make every movie with the awareness that this might be my final statement. And Vamps does feel like she's just putting so much in it. It. Not pessimistically, but just being like, who knows, right? It's kind of like her final statement on New York, on youth culture, on like relationships, on motherhood, like all these things.

[Griffin Newman]

I like Crimes of Future a lot more as a movie, but I think the Shrouds is a very interesting cuda.

[David Sims]

I agree with you career, which I feel Vamps, I'm putting in the same category where it's like, it's not her best movie, but if it sadly has to be her coda in feature films, it is a pretty good one.

[Griffin Newman]

I think when Cronenberg movies are mega chatty, it can be a problem, I guess is my take.

[David Sims]

I would say that my read is in that film. It is a form of knowing self parody. I think he is mocking his own critics analysis of his movies being cold and analytical about very emotional things.

[Griffin Newman]

Sure.

[David Sims]

That was my read. I will say. I also saw it at the Nighthawk in a row with five people who were committed to watching it as if they were doing a Rift Tracks commentary.

[Griffin Newman]

Oh, how fun.

[David Sims]

And thought they were mocking it. And I almost went full joker mode on.

[Griffin Newman]

I would go a little Joker mode.

[David Sims]

I did turn to this one moment at one point and go, can you please? With like the intensity of a thousand burning suns. And she was freaked out.

[Griffin Newman]

You may be right. Right. Because you're right. You started too quick. Yes, right.

[David Sims]

But she. Vincent Catal took his shirt off in a scene of mourning. And she went, yes, yes. And I was like, I can tolerate.

[Griffin Newman]

This to a lot. I mean, that is objectively hilarious that someone said yes during the Shrek.

[David Sims]

But it was coming off of 45 minutes of a meditation on death. No, they kept being like, what? Like just doing the sort of performative laughing at like, what? Who talks like this?

[Caroline Framke]

Vincent Cassell. And she flashed back viscerally to him in Ocean Stories 12 with his sweatpants very low.

[David Sims]

I was all for.

[Caroline Framke]

Which is the only proper response to that.

[David Sims]

I was all for her thirsting after Vincent Castell if I felt like it wasn't done. Mockingly.

[Caroline Framke]

Been there.

[David Sims]

It felt like she was mocking the idea of thirsting after him. And I'm like, that's unacceptable. He is hot. And this movie knows it's funny. And stop acting like you're smarter in it. Anyway. The film Vamps, directed by Amy Heckerling. Can we talk about the ending?

[Griffin Newman]

Sure. The ending's lovely. I mean, it's exactly what you want it to be, I guess is the best way for me to put it. It's a very good guy going to Times Square.

[David Sims]

Once again, his greatest place executed.

[Ben Hosley]

Center of the world is, she said.

[Caroline Framke]

The center of things all happening. I don't know. Did you read them?

[Griffin Newman]

I. Look, if you want to see 2010 Broadway musical billboards, watch the last scene of Vamps. It's kind of awesome. Like Spider Man.

[David Sims]

Turn off the dark. She captured it.

[Griffin Newman]

I forgot about the women on the verge of a nervous breakdown musical.

[David Sims]

The Sinatra jukebox musical. There's so much interesting stuff.

[Ben Hosley]

Adam's family.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

Yep. But it's just like she.

[David Sims]

They kill Sigourney Weaver.

[Caroline Framke]

They kill Sigourney Weaver in this very, like. It's almost. It's like the mummy Return of the dragon Emperor level graphics. Okay. When she comes out of the tomb with the saber and she's a skeleton and she's singing, my eyes have seen the coming of the glory of the Lord. I fully like. That was the funniest. It was so funny.

[David Sims]

Here's what I'll say about that as well. Still would let me add her. Sigourney with a skeleton and wielding body. I take my chances.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah. Yeah. But they don't. They.

[David Sims]

They kill her. And you have this very good gag that once again, you're just like. If she had a little more resources, this would be impeccable. Where Kristen Ritter, immediately, in a series of three shots, her butt gets a little flatter.

[Caroline Framke]

A little flat.

[David Sims]

The lighting changes on her.

[Caroline Framke]

Yep.

[David Sims]

And there's. Oh. And her arms start sagging. Right.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like two wrinkles.

[Caroline Framke]

But it's, like, pretty well done because it's like it's. She doesn't. It's just enough.

[David Sims]

It's just enough where you're like, I was.

[Caroline Framke]

I stayed out of the sun and I didn't drink or smoke. So good for me.

[David Sims]

Right. And then that worked for me.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

It's a good joke. Looks over to Lisa Silverstone, who is in not the world's best old age makeup.

[Caroline Framke]

I wouldn't say so no.

[David Sims]

Immediately clocks. You've been lying to me about your age. They bring up the History Channel thing and, like, are you going to stop aging now? Alicia Soron gives the knowing look of just, like, this is just going to advance. I. You know, clock is ticking until I decay. I. But I don't want to die here. I want to go to the center of where everything happens. And then they go to Times Square, and she, like, looks around at the world's greatest billboards and flashes back to, like, the history of New York City.

[Caroline Framke]

She gets a pretzel, which I'm sad for her for. I wanted her to get a hot dog, but she. Pretzels are not that good.

[David Sims]

She doesn't know, though, that's.

[Caroline Framke]

She didn't even get mustard. What doesn't know can't hurt dry. It's genuinely for a cool DC to wash it down with affecting, you know, but it's. But it is a really, you know, for as bad as the wig is or as fine as the dust effect is the music. I don't remember what the song is, but the song and her flashing back to, like, you know, all her stuff and her kids and everything, it got me.

[David Sims]

And also culture. Like, not just her own personal memories, but, like, everything she's lived through.

[Caroline Framke]

It's just. Yeah. I don't know. I felt very. I felt very touched. And then, you know, obviously. And one of the reasons Stacey's so sad is because she's like, now you'll never meet my baby, and we'll never. You won't raise this baby with me. And they hold hands, and it's just a very lovely friendship moment. And I will say an impressively straight vampire movie that I. And I don't hold it against it.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

Which is.

[Griffin Newman]

They don't really.

[Caroline Framke]

No, there's never that.

[David Sims]

No.

[Caroline Framke]

But I wouldn't expect Heckerling to do that, honestly.

[Griffin Newman]

No.

[Caroline Framke]

But it's a very. It is. You know, not only do they never have a little moment, but she gets pregnant. It's, like, very straight, but it is lovely.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, Dan Stevens will make anyone pregnant.

[David Sims]

You promise. It's. It's kind of a knockout ending, and it's one of those things.

[Griffin Newman]

I was a little moved.

[Caroline Framke]

It was. It was. And, you know, Times Square is Times Square. But I think there's a New York Times profile of Heckerling that I'm sure you've referenced, where it's like, you know, she's making the Clueless musical, but she. Times Square is, like, one of her first memories, like, coming out of the subway in a stroller, she's like, and there is Times Square. And it looked like that. And so for her to have this relationship with Times Square where she's like, this was where every, like, she described it as, like, the center of things. Like, this is like, she's. She was like, everything is here. And so for that, there's like, such. You know, there's always an analog. Like, obviously, many of these films are personal, but this is such a personal moment. And it's bittersweet because Goody seems to have accepted it and she's happy about it. I am not convinced. Is being like, and now I'm irrelevant and I'm going to die.

[David Sims]

I have always had a real similar affection and obsession with Times Square as a lifelong New Yorker. From how, like, overstimulating and exciting it was to me as a child to even now when every other native New Yorker I know is just like, why would you ever go there by choice? I have always found it weirdly relaxing and serene to just submit myself to the chaos of Times Square and stand in the middle or just wander around, whatever.

[Caroline Framke]

I went the night after prom, like, with my friends from Jersey, we went to Times Square, and I was like, because this is. This is the cool. Like, this is the busiest, most not New Jersey thing we could do right now is go to Times Square and get it.

[Ben Hosley]

Seaside Heights.

[Caroline Framke]

Oh, I mean, that's good, too.

[Ben Hosley]

I mean, that's the most Jersey thing.

[Caroline Framke]

That is the most Jersey thing you could do. Yes, they went the other way, but.

[David Sims]

It is so insufferable and annoying and impossible to navigate. And yet when I am there, I do feel like the way this character feels, this is the center of the world. World.

[Caroline Framke]

No.

[David Sims]

Interesting.

[Griffin Newman]

I am almost always like, get me out of here.

[David Sims]

I. I'm. I'm presenting myself as the weirdo and the freak. And I, in. In watching these movies and in reading all the Heckerling interviews and then living with her for the last couple months of we have in our head, I'm just like, I'm really just kind of on her wavelength. And I found myself defending a lot of her movies that people don't like as much. That just kind of work for me. And I just feel like I have a very similar outlook on a lot of things to her. And, yeah, it's like in watching this movie, it does feel like the ending is her sort of being like, has my time passed? Which more globally than just her and her career. Also feels like this is kind of acknowledging the end of a type of movie that doesn't get made anymore. And the last two films she made were basically made past like, on borrowed time. Right. Like, studios are no longer making these. So now you have to, like, scrape and scavenge and pull together. The wonkiest version of this thing too.

[Caroline Framke]

Is that she did have to scrape and scavenge for this. But she did get to do Times Square. Yeah, for one night she got Times Square.

[David Sims]

She, like, had her three main actors in the middle of Times Square. There's like triumphs in this movie that really got to me. I still think it is like, on whole a good movie that I enjoy quite a bit. It is frustrating, as we said, bittersweet that it is not like a triumph, which it should be.

[Caroline Framke]

But I feel like it dealt with a lot of the. I'm really glad that I watched I Could Never Be youe Woman before this because I feel like that one was so close to her experience that I feel like it was. I mean, you've talked about it. I won't do it. But I do feel like this movie, I felt like dealt with a lot of the same themes better because she could take a slight step back. It's actually sur. Like watching it, I was like, I'm actually surprised it took you this long to get to vampires. Like, they are so up the street of everything. You want to talk about that? I feel like this one, she did get to something there.

[David Sims]

Can I read an extended quote that I found the other.

[Griffin Newman]

David.

[Caroline Framke]

David.

[David Sims]

We're saying goodbye to Emily Heckerling. Goodbye to Amy Heckerling.

[Griffin Newman]

Enough.

[David Sims]

We're saying goodbye to Amy Hecker.

[Caroline Framke]

Patch Kid.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. I need like 20 of them. Come on. What's the quote? Come on.

[Caroline Framke]

He's getting sour. Patch Kids.

[David Sims]

Our friend Hillary Weston, friend of the podcast Criterion, did an interview with Amy Hecklering, I think around the time time that the Fast Times release was coming out. And she was talking about where Clueless came from. These quotes that we've sort of talked about before. The projection of the optimists, right? And she's talking about how much she admires the idea of the optimists and running the world and, like, putting the shine on them. And then she just says, also a world full of optimists wouldn't be a good idea because what if we all went, ha, global warming. It will be fine. We need pessimists. You can't just say, oh, here's this thing I made. It's great. Although a lot of people that are creative have that they Go, I'm doing this and I'm doing that. And they think everything they do is great. And then there are people say, you know, this has been done before and here's all the ways it could stink. And then you can't write one word without thinking about how bad it could be based on how people could react, how other ways have fallen flat. And then she basically immediately dunks on Life is Beautiful and the Day the Clown Cried. But I just think that sort of encapsulates the like essential tension between the two sides of Amy Heckerling in her work that is often represented. But also I think what must feel frustrating to her in trying to get stuff made because there was a point in time where the industry went like, you got it. We want whatever you're selling. And that self doubt she had was conquered by people begging her to come in. And I, I think in that New York Times profile where she talks about writing all the time time and similar thing with her having vamps on a shelf for years before she finally got it made, I think she is very self defeating if people are not banging down her door asking what she has, that's a bummer.

[Griffin Newman]

She made Clueless though. Yeah, she made I didn't make Clueless.

[David Sims]

Many great films that we don't discuss that enough that in fact you have never directed Clueless. And that's my entire life. Failure.

[Griffin Newman]

No, I didn't try. Didn't even try. Didn't even get off the couch and try.

[David Sims]

Cowardly.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, I think so.

[David Sims]

Yeah. We have not watched or done or loser episode at the time of this recording. So we're now going to place in the audio of the rankings that we will record after the fact of her entire career. Okay, this is Griffin David zooming in from the future Heckerling rankings. Here we go. David, you want to go first.

[Griffin Newman]

Number one, Clueless.

[David Sims]

Weird. Surprising.

[Griffin Newman]

Number two, Fast Times Original. On high.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Normal so far. Number three. Look who's talking. I have that over Johnny Dangerously in fourth and Vamps in fifth.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

And I could never be your woman in six.

[David Sims]

Wow.

[Griffin Newman]

And who's a her in seventh?

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Euro Vacation in eighth. Look who's talking to Bringing up the rear.

[David Sims]

That's maybe the root cutest thing you've ever done in a ranking.

[Griffin Newman]

What?

[David Sims]

Mr. Toilet man alone you're so deserves better than so funny.

[Griffin Newman]

Because you're like, how could you say that about look, look who's talking to. And I'm like, what? And you're like, Mr. Toilet Man. But then you don't have Anything else?

[David Sims]

That movie is like the holy mountain. It's just, like, deranged, like Fever Dream images. Okay, here's my ranking.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

You might be surprised to hear we have the same top five, just in a slightly different order. But I figured that's basically the Argu Inarg. Right? So I have fast times at number one. Oh, I love fast.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, that's fine. Yeah, sure.

[David Sims]

Clues. Number two, Johnny Dangerously. At number three. Look who's talking. At number four, vamps. At five. The number six. Exactly where it belongs. Look who's talking to Jesus Christ. Number seven, national amp, European vacation.

[Griffin Newman]

Whoa.

[David Sims]

Number eight, Lahu Zaher.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

Number nine, I could never be your woman.

[Griffin Newman]

How Pfeiffer. Dead in a ditch.

[David Sims]

Do you remember that? Watching that movie feels like staring into the sun.

[Griffin Newman]

It's like having a str.

[David Sims]

It has things in it I like.

[Griffin Newman]

Exactly.

[David Sims]

There is no movie she's made that I dislike.

[Griffin Newman]

Holistically, I would say there's one for me, which is a little film with Mr. Toilet.

[David Sims]

You're. By calling. By referring to it as a film with Mr. Toilet man, you're proving your entire thesis wrong. Wrong. He eats poo poo and pee pee. And he's voiced by Mel Brooks. Okay. Anyway, that's our ranking.

[Ben Hosley]

Spit is blue.

[David Sims]

Ben's ranking is look who's talking now. 10 times. Even though she didn't direct that.

[Ben Hosley]

It's fun.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[Ben Hosley]

And there's animals and they talk in it.

[David Sims]

It has talking dogs.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah, you don't have to tell me.

[David Sims]

Okay, back to the episode.

[Griffin Newman]

We've done this box office game game before.

[David Sims]

We have?

[Griffin Newman]

Yep. We've done it twice.

[Caroline Framke]

It's amazing that there is a box office game.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, that's the thing. It's sort of a nominal box office game, but number one is an animated film that Ben loves.

[David Sims]

It's an animated film that Ben. It is called Wreck It Ralph.

[Griffin Newman]

Correct. New this week. So Ben was wrecking it. I know you actually first watched that movie on a plane or something, but you were. Let's think of you.

[Ben Hosley]

I didn't end up seeing it.

[Caroline Framke]

He said you didn't remember. Yeah. You said he didn't remember much, but he wrecked it.

[Griffin Newman]

Number two is a box off at the box office is a serious sort of big scale ish drama. Got a couple Oscar nominations. Also new this week, and we've also covered it on the show.

[David Sims]

We've also covered it on this show in the year 2012. It is not a Fincher to do. It's not an angli. It is not A Demi. It's not a Myers. It's not. It's not Spielberg. It's not a crow.

[Griffin Newman]

November 2, 2012, by the way.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I know. November 2, 2012. Not a Cameron. It's not a Locust. It's not Shyamalan. David spinning his headphone cable really fast. Give me a serious Oscar film. Got a couple nominations. Tell me some of the nominations.

[Griffin Newman]

It got best actor.

[David Sims]

It got best actor. Actor. Yes.

[Griffin Newman]

I could have won if this guy hadn't already won an Oscar or two. And best original Screenplay.

[David Sims]

It got best Actor and best original Screenplay. And this person had already won two Oscars.

[Griffin Newman]

You sure had.

[David Sims]

It's not a densel. It is a densel. It's called Flight.

[Griffin Newman]

That's right.

[David Sims]

There we go.

[Griffin Newman]

Now number three, the box office wins best picture for 2012. And what is that?

[David Sims]

It is Z artist. Oh, it's what are you saying I'm right?

[Griffin Newman]

No, you are not.

[David Sims]

Pleasure with 2012. That's the. The year before artist is 2011. Okay, so 2012, the best picture winner was. Are Go yourself. There you go.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay, now number four. We just had to get to four. I believe has really befuddled you both times. I think both box times we played this box office game. You took several cracking my golf swings at this point is it is an action action film. It is directed by a first time director who's better known as a musician.

[David Sims]

Oh. The problem is I know exactly what this movie is and I always get the wording of the title wrong. Is it called the man with the Golden Fist?

[Griffin Newman]

You always say that and it's always what material?

[David Sims]

Iron.

[Griffin Newman]

There you go. There's one episode I think where you're like bro, bronze brass stone. Like, like it takes you way too long to get to iron.

[Caroline Framke]

Yes.

[David Sims]

The resistance fight.

[Griffin Newman]

Yes. The resistance martial arts film. I believe so.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Despite Ben's love of Netflix's Iron Fist, of course. Number five at the box office is an action sequel.

[David Sims]

It's an action sequel. It's number two. It's a deuce.

[Griffin Newman]

It's a number two.

[David Sims]

Is it a T O O 2 hikerling style?

[Griffin Newman]

No, it's not.

[David Sims]

It's an action sequel to Deuce. Did it keep going after this or since the end of the road? It kept going.

[Caroline Framke]

There's a sexy voice.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I'm doing the guy.

[David Sims]

Oh, he's doing it' John Wick. Chapter two is. But the guy's got a deep voice.

[Caroline Framke]

This guy should stay around.

[Griffin Newman]

Okay.

[David Sims]

Okay. And it's not. It's not Butler and It's not st. No, older. Older.

[Griffin Newman]

Who's old?

[David Sims]

Who's old? Stallone.

[Griffin Newman]

No, younger.

[David Sims]

Well, younger.

[Griffin Newman]

I think a little younger.

[David Sims]

It's not Ford and it's not Eastwood. No, no. But he's mostly an action guy.

[Griffin Newman]

Leader in life, Home, Me.

[David Sims]

Oh. He's got a very particular set of skills.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, I didn't want to do the accent, of course.

[David Sims]

This is Taken two.

[Griffin Newman]

That's right.

[David Sims]

Yeah. A movie, I often say, has one of the best setups ever.

[Griffin Newman]

I love the setup for that movie, but it sucks. Yeah, very sucks. Very bad. It's really shitty.

[David Sims]

A really bad movie exclusively.

[Griffin Newman]

Like. I think Taken one is massively overrated. It just has the Nissan Juice and like, it's kind of something, you know.

[David Sims]

You know what I'm going to say. The thing. It's a perfect cultural object. It is not a good movie, but it's a perfect cultural object. And two is a. Forget.

[Griffin Newman]

Forget it. Forget it. Just. No, because, like, what they then figured out is like, oh, Neeson can just do this kind of thing, right? It doesn't have to be in the Taken. Right.

[David Sims]

And then Taken three kind of has no hook. Yeah, yeah. It's just sort of like. Right, he's back. No, I think no one gets Taken three.

[Griffin Newman]

It's okay. I'm gonna take you.

[Ben Hosley]

I feel like they should have played around with the titling a little bit more Taken.

[Caroline Framke]

Oh, sure, sure.

[David Sims]

For sure.

[Caroline Framke]

That's about it.

[David Sims]

Right.

[Griffin Newman]

Well, hold on.

[David Sims]

Given Back. The third one should be called Given Back.

[Griffin Newman]

It's good when we're doing return bits and Ben goes, hold on. That's when you know good stuff's coming. Number six is Cloud Atlas. We've covered. Number seven is we've done this box office game three times. No, no, no, because this isn't new that week. I'm saying Ralph and Flight are both new.

[David Sims]

It.

[Griffin Newman]

Number six is Cloud Atlas. Number seven is Hotel Transylvania.

[David Sims]

There we go.

[Griffin Newman]

Number eight is Paranormal Activity 4. The one with the Xbox.

[David Sims]

The best three. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Number nine, the Connect 3 is 4 is not the best. Maybe the worst one. Yeah, four. Number nine is. Here comes the boom.

[David Sims]

Of course, there it went. What if we remade Warrior one year.

[Griffin Newman]

Later with Kevin James? And number number 10 is the absolutely indefensible Silent Hill revelation.

[David Sims]

Sure. Now, David, 3D, would you do me a kindness? Would you just. Just for my own joy, remind me what the numbers were on Ralph and Flight Opening weekend, Ralph was $49 million.

[Griffin Newman]

And flight was 24.9.

[David Sims]

Yeah, I remember feeling the Ralph opening was Lower than I expected out and had a long tail.

[Caroline Framke]

So this was November 2nd.

[Griffin Newman]

November 2nd.

[Caroline Framke]

They couldn't even give vamps, like a real still Halloween.

[David Sims]

You know what? You know, Caroline, you're right.

[Griffin Newman]

But maybe.

[David Sims]

Theater at least put it out before Halloween instead of two days.

[Griffin Newman]

We have done the week before his box office, which because it is Cloud Atlas's first week.

[David Sims]

Okay.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Wow.

[Caroline Framke]

It's just. It could have been vamps.

[David Sims]

It could have been vamps. I hope people watch this movie. I hope if you thought this is one, you could skip and just listen to the episode.

[Griffin Newman]

Check it out.

[David Sims]

I will say at the time we're recording this, it is on on all of America's most free streaming services. It is on Tubi. It is on Pluto. It is on Fubo. It's on all of it.

[Griffin Newman]

This thing is to be.

[David Sims]

You can watch it on Plex with ads. It's everywhere.

[Griffin Newman]

And do please.

[David Sims]

Yeah, but I think it's quite a good film.

[Griffin Newman]

Next up on our podcast is the Coen brothers. So it's not a surprise.

[David Sims]

No, big surprise. I keep asking people, like, are being asked by people what spoilers. But, like, what's the rest of the year year. And I remind them the Cohen's won and they made 20 movies.

[Griffin Newman]

A lot of their movies.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Are gonna be covered.

[David Sims]

Congratulations. That's the rest of the year. Along with new release films. Oh, and David's wearing his congratulations shirt. Carolyn, thank you so much for coming back. Thank you. Far too long. We'll have you on again sooner.

[Griffin Newman]

Yeah. You want to do Blood Simple?

[David Sims]

Just come back next week. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

You want to come back going.

[Caroline Framke]

Just keep this going. Keep this part going.

[David Sims]

Anything you want to plug?

[Caroline Framke]

Not really. I hope I have more stuff to plug by the time this comes out. I just want to issue a quick apology for anyone who was at a 2016 show at Little Field that had 12 of us, including mother of blankies, Emily Yoshida, taking a track for each Carly Rae Jepsen song on the hit album In Motion.

[Griffin Newman]

Great, great song.

[Caroline Framke]

Great album which featured me. I had taken the song Warm Blood and I decided to give a little PowerPoint presentation on lesbian vampires. I did get very nervous and too drunk, and I can't imagine that was good. Also, I did take that song away from the very wonderful, award winning national treasure writer Hanifa Durakib, who wanted warm blood. And whenever he tells the story about that night, he talks about how he didn't get warm blood and he wanted it.

[Griffin Newman]

What did he get?

[Caroline Framke]

I don't remember the song. Oh, maybe it was, I really like you. And he put up. And the reason why he talks about this is. Cause he put up a screen that just said, tell someone you love them tonight. And he just talked as he can and just gave a wonderful, moving, meaningful speech about telling people you love them. And people talk about it all the time and reference it. And I.

[Griffin Newman]

So stop complaining. Then he got a good one.

[Caroline Framke]

But he always talks about how he didn't get warm blood. And that's because it was me talking about lesbian vampires. And I thought this would be a great opportunity, a great forum to apologize for that, because I do feel like there are some people listening who probably went to that. Emily did the LA Hallucination song because she is an LA baby.

[David Sims]

I cannot think of another example of asking someone if they have anything they want to plug. Instead, they offer an apology for a thing that happened nine years ago.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Griffin Newman]

Do remember, I assume. No offense to that, I'm sure.

[David Sims]

I mean, I don't have any of those PowerPoint signs.

[Caroline Framke]

I'm sure I do. I think it's probably online somewhere. I have a shirt. But anyway.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

I just felt like, you know.

[David Sims]

Yeah.

[Caroline Framke]

In honor of vamps.

[David Sims]

You're the best. We owe you big time. For David is just. And he's up dropping a celebratory deuce to end the episode.

[Caroline Framke]

And disrespectful to Amy. Heckling.

[David Sims]

But I agree. We gave him air conditioning and Sour Patch Kids. We let him go hog wild this episode. And this is how he repays us.

[Ben Hosley]

God, those Sour Patch Kids hit.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah. I'm saying this is. I had them for a reason. This is how I've managed to do. Do it.

[Ben Hosley]

I have to go get a bag for myself.

[Caroline Framke]

Lemonade. Sour Patch Kids, they have apple flavors in the fall. Look them up. The only time I've ever ordered snacks off Amazon specialty Sour Patch Kids. Get into them.

[David Sims]

Okay. Okay.

[Caroline Framke]

Not sponsored.

[David Sims]

That's a good plug.

[Caroline Framke]

Yeah.

[David Sims]

Thank you for being here.

[Caroline Framke]

You're so welcome. It's such a pleasure.

[David Sims]

Thank you all for listening. Please remember to rate, review, subscribe, and tune in next week for Blood simple, the start of the Coen Brothers filmographies. And as always, canonically. And he's not allowed to say anything against this because he. He waived that right. David is currently taking the world's sloppiest. That's how he ended the episode. And if he disagrees, then here's his chance to offer rebuttal.

[Ben Hosley]

Blank check with Griffin. And David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims, our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley, our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas, and our Associate producer is AJ McKeon. This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alan Smithy, research by JJ Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel, with additional music by Alex Mitchell, artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to all of the real nerdy shit. Join our Patreon Blank Check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on Social blankcheckpod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.