You Were Never Really Here with Sean Clements

Summary

Blank Check with Griffin & David – "You Were Never Really Here" (February 15, 2026)

Guest: Sean Clements
Hosts: Griffin Newman, David Sims
Producer: Ben Hosley

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Episode Overview

In this episode of Blank Check, hosts Griffin Newman and David Sims are joined by comedian and screenwriter Sean Clements to dissect Lynne Ramsay's 2017 neo-noir thriller, "You Were Never Really Here", starring Joaquin Phoenix. Part of the ongoing Lynne Ramsay miniseries ("We Need to Pod About Castvin"), the episode investigates Ramsay's singular filmography, the handling of trauma and violence in "You Were Never Really Here", Joaquin Phoenix's performance, adaptation choices, and the cultural climate surrounding the film's release. The conversation is steeped in the hosts’ signature blend of cinephilic analysis and comedic rapport, offering both granular insight and meta-commentary on film culture.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Film's Tone, Marketing, and Initial Impressions

• The film is notably minimal in dialogue, which sets a challenging mood for viewers and marketers alike.
• The hosts riff on how hard it is to create compelling taglines for this kind of movie, joking about alternate poster quotes and parody taglines.
  • "There's a pull quote on the poster that is 'Taxi Driver for a New Century [...] Joaquin Phoenix looking tortured and a girl, like, drowning superimposed inside his body.'" – Griffin (00:45)
• The marketing and initial audience perception are debated, with Sean admitting he almost skipped it based on the poster’s ambiguous, moody quality.

2. Joaquin Phoenix’s Performance as Joe

• General agreement that Phoenix's performance is among his best, using understatement and a sense of embarrassment as tools—a shift from his more mannered roles, such as "Joker."
  • "Harnessing that aspect of him as an actor that always feels a little embarrassed to be acting." – David (02:40)
• Discussion on Phoenix's physical transformation; he sports a paunch rather than a Hollywood six-pack, suggesting a real, grizzled antihero:
  • "If he had been, like, shredded, he wouldn't be nearly as scary or powerful looking as he is in this movie." – Sean (74:28)
• The counterintuitive choice works to make the violence more credible and the character relatable in his brokenness.

3. Adaptation from Jonathan Ames’ Novel

• Both Griffin and Sean read the book, highlighting how the novel is heavy on internal monologue—a challenge Ramsay overcomes by externalizing Joe's PTSD and emotional state through quiet moments, visuals, and editing rather than voiceover.
  • "It feels like the book is like the backstory an actor creates for their character." – Griffin (05:53)
• Ramsay's process is discussed as reverse engineering, taking deeply internal narratives and making them cinematic; compared to her handling of "Morvern Callar".

4. Handling of Trauma, Violence, and PTSD

• Ramsay's aesthetic choices stand out: violence is suggested rather than shown, with security camera footage and aftermath shots replacing on-screen brutality, underlining the psychological toll.
  • "This feels like a really brutal, violent movie where you almost never actually see the show." – Griffin (06:23)
• The film is contrasted with "Taken" and traditional action revenge thrillers, with the hosts agreeing Ramsay’s focus is on aftermath and psychology, not cathartic violence.
• Sean shares a personal PTSD story, relating it to the film's honest portrayal of living with trauma (61:07–66:26).

5. Plot & Thematic Analysis

• The protagonists' purpose: Joe’s sense of duty and self-loathing, his care for his mother, and the spiral into violence.
• The hosts elucidate the plot’s deliberate simplicity: Joe is hired to rescue a senator’s daughter, only to become ensnared in a deeper web of corruption and violence.
• Emphasis on how the film removes “distracting pleasures” of genre (i.e., a typical cathartic rampage/climax) to force the audience to sit with the “lingering image of what’s going to stay in [Joe’s] head.” – Griffin (122:14)
• The ambiguous, emotionally raw ending wherein the rescued girl reaches out to Joe, giving him a glimmer of connection and meaning.

6. Lynne Ramsay as a 'Blank Check' Director

• The episode addresses Reddit criticisms that Ramsay is not truly “blank check” material (i.e., seldom given large budgets/free rein).
  • "There isn't one [blank check for Ramsay]. So, like, I guess it’s your podcast to do whatever you want." – Sean (36:05)
• The hosts defend her inclusion as a “refusal” of blank checks with strings, and for making uncompromising, distinct films against industry norms.
• Context is provided about Ramsay's troubles in Hollywood, notably the "Jane Got a Gun" debacle, and her resilience in rebounding with personal, independent projects.

7. Broader Industry Context & Amazon Studios

• Discussion of Amazon (and comparative mention of A24 and Netflix) as 2010s havens for auteurs pushed out of studios, buying up films like "You Were Never Really Here."
• Analysis of why Amazon's commercial bets both failed and succeeded (e.g., "Manchester by the Sea," "The Big Sick") and subsequent shift away from auteur-driven fare.

8. Violence and Cultural Paranoia (Epstein & Pizzagate)

• The film’s release and its resonance with (and distance from) contemporary conspiracy culture are discussed, including discussion on the rise of "Pizzagate," and "Sound of Freedom."
  • "At the time...I didn't clock that [conspiratorial undertone] at all...But now, it's basically like, yeah, well, that shit's all true." – David (96:02)
• The hosts condemn the shift in cultural focus onto "vengeance against evil men" and argue the film's value is in its empathy for victims, not sensationalizing villainy (139:19).

9. Technical Elements: Score, Editing, Direction

• Johnny Greenwood's score is praised for channeling Joe's inner chaos and for the pulsing, anxiety-inducing sound design.
  • "Johnny Greenwood score in this movie is un musical." – Griffin (124:59)
• Ramsay’s structural and tonal minimalism, her resistance to over-explanation, and the influence of films such as "Le Samouraï" are highlighted.

10. Memorable Moments & Bits

• Multiple recurring gags about hammer-based violence in cinema:
  • "Should we talk about his choice to use a hammer? And is this one of the greatest hammer violence performances of all time?" – Sean (89:16)
• Spirited sidebars about movie posters, Ed Burns’ directorial career, JGL, “Don Jon”, and more, reflecting the podcast’s signature mix of deep-dive and digression.
• Box Office Game (146:19–156:01): Playful guessing of 2018’s April box office, connecting to the film’s release climate.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Phoenix's acting style:
  "He always sounds embarrassed to be saying what he's saying. If he's saying." – Griffin (02:36)

• On adaptation:
  “The book is like the backstory an actor creates for their character.” – Griffin (05:53)

• On Ramsay’s handling of violence:
  "This feels like a really brutal, violent movie where you almost never actually see the show." – Griffin (06:23)

• On the blank check debate:
  "There's so many movies she walks off of, or lets fall apart because she's just like, this is going in the wrong direction. I'd rather not make a movie than make a movie." – Griffin (37:28)

• On the ending’s emotional resonance:
  "The moment of outreach, which is like the first and only time in this movie that you see anyone try to do anything to help him emotionally...is so profound and emotionally overwhelming to me." – Griffin (135:11)

• On the morality of violence and vengeance in stories:
  "There is this, like, perverse kind of, like, morbid fascination with...how can anyone be capable of something that evil? But spending more time thinking about them than the people who are on the receiving end...is part of a giant cultural problem." – Griffin (139:30)

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Timestamps of Important Segments

• Phoenix’s performance, physicality & career context: 02:40–04:18; 74:28–77:39
• Book vs. film adaptation, internal vs. external monologue: 04:29–06:04; 46:07–51:40
• Ramsay’s direction, violence, and POV: 06:23–07:36; 117:16–118:59
• Blank check director debate: 35:26–39:06
• Jane Got a Gun saga: 39:06–44:16
• Amazon, A24, and indie film industry's state: 28:07–33:02
• Ham-fisted hammer talk: 89:16–93:34
• PTSD discussion (Sean’s story): 61:07–66:26
• Plot breakdown, differences in book and film: 108:39–113:19
• Ending analysis (Joe & Nina in diner): 133:07–135:30
• Box Office game: 146:19–156:12
• Cultural paranoia (Epstein/Pizzagate): 95:49–103:13; 139:19–140:49

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Memorable Moments

• Hammer Movie Hall of Fame: The hosts run through other iconic hammer-wielding characters in cinema, comparing "You Were Never Really Here" to "Oldboy," "Drive," and “Thor” (89:16–90:55).
• Adaptation as Backstory: The concept of Ramsay’s scripts feeling like deeply considered actor backstory rather than exposition-heavy adaptations.
• Sean's PTSD story: A vulnerable and gripping story about escaping a car fire, which feeds directly into the episode’s discussion of trauma depiction (61:07–66:26).
• Ed Burns as Irish-American Tyler Perry: Quick-witted comparison and a running bit about under-the-radar directors.
• Meta-commentary on Moviegoing: Conversation about Amazon's successes/failures in theatrical releases and the shifting model of indie/arthouse distribution.

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Podcast Tone & Style

• Highly referential, with jokes and asides on film poster copy, podcasting in-jokes, and ribbing each other about their respective habits and fandoms.
• Willingness to veer into personal territory and broader media critique, yet always tethered to an earnest cinephilia and admiration for craft.
• Dialogue is warm, fast-paced, and full of comedic flourishes, never belittling the heavier subject matter but instead contextualizing it within both film analysis and personal experience.

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Conclusion

This episode is a rich, accessible entry point to both Lynne Ramsay’s work and the complex adaptation "You Were Never Really Here." The trio’s conversation is a deft mix of plot summary, adaptation analysis, actorly insight, and cinephile banter, with sufficient care paid to tone and content. Listeners unfamiliar with the film or director will find enough context to become invested, while aficionados will appreciate the granular and sometimes irreverent dissection.

Endnote: Next up in the miniseries: Ramsay’s "Die My Love."

Transcript

[A]

Blank check with Griffin and David. Blank check with Griffin and David. Don't know what to say or to expect. All you need to know is that the name of the shadow is Blackjack. Joe, wake up. It's a beautiful podcast.

[B]

So this is.

[A]

It's the last line of the film.

[B]

That is true. But this is a dialogue light movie.

[A]

It is.

[B]

I was like, what's he gonna say? I guess that's true.

[A]

Lynn Ramsey, testing me on the opening quotes.

[B]

Was there a tagline? What if he's like, get ready to meet Joe? Like, how do you. Like, what's the, like, worst tagline you could.

[A]

Joe does things a little differently. There's a quote. There's a pull quote on the poster that is Taxi Driver for a New Century, which is a way to attempt to sell this movie with the moodiest poster of all time. Just like Joaquin Phoenix looking tortured and a girl, like, drowning superimposed inside his body.

[B]

Right? That was. That was the. That was the poster.

[A]

And, like, Wong car. Why lights? I think it's a great post.

[B]

It's a pretty evocative post.

[A]

It's a mood poster, like all of hers. But, I mean, there's like. There are more quotes here.

[B]

Duck. And it's him. He's swinging a hammer. Just be funny. If they, like, marketed this like, nobody too.

[A]

It's Hammer time.

[C]

It's like Joe was having a very bad day and it's about to get even worse.

[A]

When Joe's on the clock, it's always Hammer time. There are more quotes for this than there are for. Than there were for Morv and Keller. And you look at them and you're like, well isolated. These feel like quotes that could be out of Taken too. Right, right. Like McCleary said, you were brutal. I can be. I want you to hurt them. There's a version of that that you see as, like, a tense fucking Europa Corp thriller that's like Russell Crowe being.

[B]

Like, putting down his sandwich and being like. All right, okay, yeah, sorry. I'm really bagging on Russell Crowe.

[A]

Do you know what paradise is? It's a lie, a fantasy we create about people in places as we'd like them to be. That. That's like a. That could be a fudgeing Steven Seagal, like, stares off is also distance.

[B]

It's making me realize. It's like when Watchmen, the movie Watchmen. Watchman, you know, would just. Would just paraphrase dialogue and quotes and stuff from the comic. And it's like, no, you can't speak that aloud. Seriously.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, it'll sound ridiculous now in this. It's all mumbled or it's all like.

[A]

You know, that's the magic of it to me. It's like they get away with it.

[B]

They completely get away with it.

[A]

He always sounds embarrassed to be saying what he's saying. If he's saying.

[B]

That's why it's one of his best performances. Harnessing that. That aspect of him as an actor that always feels a little embarrassed to be acting.

[A]

You're divisible on him in general. You. You have oft referred to him as a ham sandwich.

[B]

I mean, maybe introduce me before you start putting words in my mouth. But yes, I occasionally have called Joaquin Phoenix a ham sandwich.

[A]

But you agree with me. It is perhaps his best performance. And it's certainly in that conversation.

[B]

Yeah, it's a good performance. And it's. It's the mode I often like him in.

[C]

Is it the last one before he went so hard, before he took stage? Kind of the same thing all the time.

[A]

A little bit. Well. Cause this premieres at Cannes in 2017.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

It comes out in the States in 2018 and 2019. Is Joker.

[B]

Yeah, in 2018. So sort of in between him making this and Joker coming out, he's got some weird stuff. He has. The Jesus movie nobody saw.

[A]

Doesn't exist.

[B]

He has. Don't worry, he won't get far on foot, which is like Buried, Forgotten. The Grass Van Sant movie. I saw it too. It's pretty bad. It was okay.

[C]

It was. Yeah. It had. It had some charm, but.

[B]

And he does Sister's Brother, which I really like him in.

[A]

Have you ever seen that?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Pretty fantastic movie.

[B]

But obviously was sort of doa audience wise and then. Yeah.

[A]

I mean, but that's like an interesting range year for him when you think about this coming out in 2018. Sisters, brothers. Don't worry. You were never really here. Is like that. That's an interesting range of three different projects with three different. Really interesting directors in different modes. And he's not overdoing any of them.

[C]

No, I mean, this one is so, you know, obviously this one in particular that we're all saying we like is very, very understated.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I know, you know, it's light on dialog. You read the book too, right?

[A]

Yeah, I. You do?

[C]

I watched the movie first.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And then I read the book. And you're getting so much of his internal monologue and. And what, you know, what is going on for him. And it's amazing to me how much that is coming through Without. Without any of voiceover. Yes.

[B]

The same trick she pulls with Morvern Kaller, which is another movie of hers that's based on a book that's all internal monologue.

[A]

You know, it was a thought I had.

[B]

There's none of it in the movie.

[A]

I thought I had while watching this and then reading the book, which I only read recently, finished it last night and it's not long. It was a slim volume, not as like a Kindle single, but it was like an experimental ebook novel when that was a medium people were trying to test out. And then now, since the movie, it's been published as like a 97 page thing. But reading the book after seeing the movie, and I've been trying to do this with her other films as well, it feels like the book is like the backstory an actor creates for their character. Right. Where like really prepped, kind of studious actors will be like, I'm going to write this whole fucking thing. I don't need to communicate it in the movie. It helps me ground it and place it and know what I'm playing internally and hopefully not feel the need to like actually communicate it in an overstated way. And she somehow knows how to like reverse engineer that. Extrapolate from these books that are so much about the internal life. Pull out the plot of your elements.

[C]

The thing I saw in a review of Die My Love too, which I haven't seen yet, but was like, somehow her camera movements make you feel the internal life of the character.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And like the sort of the way she chooses to like show the violence or like even show moments of him at rest and how restless he is in those. In those spots is like, you know, the. The way that it's shot just like really makes you feel what he's feeling. And he's great.

[A]

Yes. I will add on to that. The additional trick in this movie that feels unique in her filmography is so often her movies are like, you are 100% in the head of the character. You are seeing the whole movie from their point of view. You are placed in their inner life. And the film is like expressing that. This movie, in its sort of handling of PTSD and a sort of disassociation is going between being really close in on him and feeling really distant, removed. And the violence is a fascinating part of that where this feels like a really brutal, violent movie where you almost never actually see the show.

[C]

They don't show the actual. Which also is obviously a very. A huge stylistic choice that is different from the book, which the Book graphically explains a lot of the brutality. But, like, when he goes through the, like, you know, brothel or whatever, and you're just getting security camera footage and it's sometimes cutting to a different angle of, like, the bottom of the stairs, and then it cuts back and you just see, like, what he has done, but you don't see him do it. That sequence is fucking awesome.

[A]

Rules.

[C]

It's not even in a. Like, you want to. You wish you were seeing it. It's like, oh, I like. Like, I have such a sense of what's going on and also, like, how scary it would be.

[A]

Everything about it.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

This is a podcast called Blank Check with Griffin and David. I am Griffin.

[B]

I'm David.

[A]

And we were never really here. It's a podcast about filmographies, directors who have massive success early on in their careers and are given a series of blank checks to make whatever crazy passion projects they want. Sometimes those checks clear and sometimes they bounce, baby. This is a miniseries on the films of Lynne Ramsey. It's called we need to Pod about cast vin. And today we're talking about my favorite film of hers and one of my favorite movies the last 10 years. You were never really here.

[B]

Yeah. A film that I've seen twice and really like. And a film that I think for you is basically like, sleepy time. Happy once a week. Just like, ah, I need to unwind. It's time to meet the hobo assassin again.

[A]

It's not quite that often. I do have some strange comfort movies that are in a real steady rotation. This is one that's more selective when I want to feel a certain way.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

But I also. I just. I find the filmmaking in this movie astonishing. There are choices she makes that still every time I watch it, and I've seen it many times. I think I saw it three times in theaters, you know, for a long time. It's an Amazon movie. They bought it. So it's just always streaming on the world's worst streaming service. And now I finally have a physical copy of it, thanks to Australian distributors outside of Amazon's reign. But there are scenes in it I'll watch. But even every time I watch it, I kind of. There are things that still surprise me in it, in what it does and what it doesn't do.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

Who's our guest who come.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Our guest today shares with me. This is one of your favorite films in recent history as well. Correct.

[C]

I love it. I mean, I were the first people I texted when I watched it. I. I think It's a totally slept on movie.

[B]

Amazon thing.

[C]

But, yeah, everyone who would listen that I was doing this podcast, just grabbing people on the street. I'm going to be on blank check. Have you heard the news?

[A]

In person for the first time?

[C]

And they said. And they said, what movie are you doing? And I'd say, you were never really here.

[A]

And they go, huh, what is that? And who made that?

[C]

Why are even people who I think would love the movie? Yeah, I'm just like, you got to watch it. But I also had kind of missed it.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

The poster, which I agree is cool, didn't sell me on it. Like, I was like, okay, this looks like a moody thing. Maybe I'll try it sometime. But I don't know why I threw it on on some streamer. But maybe like a half hour in, I was like, I gotta text Griffin and David. Like, yes, this movie rocks. Like, I was just like, holy shit, it's awesome. Like, Joaquin's unbelievable in the directing's incredible. And it's like. I mean, it's tight as a fudgeing drum. Like, it's like, there's no fat.

[B]

I really appreciate it because.

[C]

So it flies.

[B]

Because you could sit in this misery, and that's a different decision. And I don't know if I would love that. And instead it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, just kind of like little pokes in your eye. Like, like, fast. Yeah, exactly.

[C]

I mean, if you just, like, counted up the scene, like, it's like, so. So, so efficient, which I have so much respect for.

[A]

It's. It's, I think, like, 81 minutes before the credits roll, basically.

[B]

I think it's listed as, like, 90 minutes, but it's. It's really pretty much like an hour 20.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Which is.

[A]

Which is great. It's. It also feels smart in the sort of. We discussed when we covered Trainspotting on this podcast, that Danny Boyle's big rule going into that movie with all the key creatives is like, we gotta sign a blood pack. This movie has to be under 90 minutes. We are not gonna be able to sustain this. If we hit 95, it's going to become oppressive. Yeah. And I think she very smartly makes the same choice here. When it played a can, it was an earlier cut that was longer, that has never been released in any form since then.

[B]

You were never really released.

[A]

You were never really released. Our guest today.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

From Hollywood Handbook, Screenwriter of the Dink.

[B]

That's right.

[A]

Which will be coming out.

[B]

I think it has a release Date.

[C]

This summer on Apple.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Okay.

[A]

Summer 2026 Q2. Is it Q2?

[B]

Release Q3.

[A]

Ah.

[C]

What? I don't get my Q's mixed up.

[B]

I get your P's and Q's.

[A]

That's the problem. You throw.

[B]

Probably more of a Q3. If it's.

[C]

I've been told, a date. I don't know if I'm allowed to say, okay, but it's summertime.

[A]

It's coming out in the summertime Apple.

[C]

It's gonna be 2026 summer big fun, summer comedy.

[A]

Get ready to laugh again. Can we have funny laughs?

[C]

Am I allowed to have fun at all in this administration?

[A]

They told us that come illegal, and I'm not seeing a lot of evidence of that.

[C]

Yeah, well, it's legal again. And I'm actually going to be the first one to stand up and not get arrested for doing it. Sean Clements, the clem dog.

[B]

The clam's here.

[C]

Bow wow wow.

[A]

Woof, Woof.

[B]

The friends McMullen.

[A]

We had a group text for a while called the Cinematrix Club, where we post our daily Cinematrix scores. The two of you, weirdly, have decided to spend more time raising your children and less time playing Cinematrix.

[C]

It was pulling me away from my family in a very significant way, but especially because you guys are so good at it. And I was like, I can't be, like, totally humiliated every day. And I would, like, really, like, grind on this thing. And I was like, I'm not enjoying it.

[B]

I was starting to not enjoy it. That was sort of my problem. And that's no offense to the good people who make the Matrix.

[A]

It was a daily ritual, which is nice because it also gave us, like, an excuse to once a day check in and throw in some. Some spare movie thoughts and things. Like, you text well, that's why. Hey, I'm watching. You were never really here for the first time. Do you guys fuck with this movie?

[C]

I don't think it would have happened if we weren't cinematics friends who were, you know, in touch basically every day.

[A]

For a while if we weren't clubbing, which we. Yeah, and then the text thread has. Has become more sporadic. I saw the trailer for the family McMullen, the finally Ed Burns. 30 years later, Legacyquel and I text it to you and say, this feels like it's demanding a teaser freezer. And in honor of that, we have renamed the group text the friends McMullen.

[C]

A teaser freezer is something we do on Hollywood handbooks. Legendary times where we will Break down a movie trailer and. And Pokemon at the Foibles. But we. David had. I'm gonna credit David with the observation of. He said, is Ed Burns the Irish American Tyler Perry?

[A]

Yes. An incredible one.

[C]

Which is like a kill shot. Amazing quote.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And it really stuck with me.

[B]

And so I'm laughing at my own joke, but it is a good one.

[C]

So funny.

[B]

I forgot about that.

[C]

Cause we were going through all his movie titles, which are all like, the McGillicuddy brothers.

[B]

Staggering amounts of movies.

[A]

The Fitzgerald Family Christmas.

[B]

Just. I'll read. Because, like, the first. You know, brothers McMullan. She's the one. People were watching these movies.

[A]

Well, first of all, this great party trick of how many movies do you think Ed Burns has directed? Direction.

[B]

Not anything else.

[A]

My girlfriend and I were watching the Chair Company on Max, and it autoplayed a family McMullen trailer. Because I guess it's about to go.

[B]

To Max, I'm sure.

[A]

And she was like, what? And I was like, Sean Simpson, like the speed of light about this for weeks. And then I paused it and I said, just quick test. How many films do you think Ed Burns has directed? And she went, I'm gonna guess it's a lot. Like six.

[B]

Oh, he's got 15. He's got 15 on under his belt. Which is probably about six regular movies. If you kind of, like, average them out, you know, squeeze them together.

[A]

But I just love that you're like, well, three I've heard of. So I'm guessing there's three I haven't heard of. And you're like, no, there's 12 to 13.

[B]

You've never met Nice guy Johnny.

[A]

I met him.

[B]

Or you've never attended the Fitzgerald family Christmas.

[A]

Call that one out.

[B]

Which weirdly, has Connie Britton in it as well, but is not McMullen.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's Fitzgerald.

[A]

But then there's another one with another Irish family name.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Millers in marriage. And that's another one where the poster is like, 14 actors. You kind of know that. Clearly, Ed has their phone number and is like, do you have six days? I've rented a house, like. Or whatever. You know, like, we'll. We'll do it laying out.

[A]

No nonsense.

[B]

Gretchen Mall, Juliana Margo, Minnie Driver, Morena Bakar and Benjamin Bratt. Patrick Wilson. Campbell Scott, Brian Darcy James. It does. Are busy people.

[A]

It does feel like there's some Tyler Perry thing going on where you're like, I want someone to crack open the books of what the financing scheme is for these. You know, how is getting Access to these sets.

[B]

Right.

[A]

There's some complications giving him keys, Right?

[C]

Yeah. I mean, it was like the brothers McMullen was such a famous story of, like, he was, like, working for a production company. Yeah. And he was, like, stealing the cameras at night and, like, using their, you know, using their copy machines or whatever. Whatever. The thing was that. And it was like this real run and gun, like. But now he's got a budget.

[A]

They're union productions with name actors.

[B]

This is true. But I. There's gotta be something going on with.

[A]

Something's going on.

[C]

Things.

[B]

I mean, my. My ultimate assumption, obviously, is that they. They are made very quickly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because they're all just like talkie dramas, right?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And maybe I should just watch them all. I mean, maybe I should put my money where my mouth is and check in with Ed.

[A]

We also called out that he's also done, like, two TV shows, directed three complete seasons of television himself. Three seasons of two different shows where he directed every episode.

[B]

Insane.

[A]

The man keeps getting away with it.

[C]

It looks pretty good.

[A]

He looks pretty good.

[B]

That's all right.

[A]

He looks pretty good. We had really a lot of fun batting this around.

[C]

Oh, God, what a nice text. And then I got to talk about it on my podcast. Here we are talking about it again. But we're the friends McMullen.

[B]

He hasn't acted.

[A]

We're the friends McMullen.

[B]

He has not acted in a movie that he, you know, didn't direct since Alex Cross.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

The Rob Cohen, you know, sort of co.

[A]

Starring Tyler Perry.

[C]

Yeah, the non Irish Tyler Perry.

[A]

Did he take some notes? Did Tyler Perry go, I wonder. Come here.

[B]

Where he is the third guy? This is crazy. He's gonna be playing some kind of, like, detective sidekick. I don't know if Ed Burns can pull something like that.

[A]

Seems like a murder or something going on here. I. I'm bringing all this up because the first ever teaser freezer, of course, in the first episode of Hollywood Handbook ever, was Don John, Don Jon. A movie that you and Hayes Davenport came on to discuss on this podcast. Yes. I don't know if you saw the news.

[C]

Oh, I did.

[A]

New Joseph Gordon Levitt movie in production.

[C]

Might be time to run it back.

[A]

Train.

[C]

Might be time to run it back.

[A]

I think we gotta call the shot right now.

[C]

We gotta complete that series.

[B]

Oh. I mean, we're continuing the JGL Mini. Is that. What. What is this movie? Do we know what it's about?

[A]

It's Emanatta Kendrick and it's a. Is it about AI?

[C]

I feel like, hit record, Joe.

[B]

I feel like maybe I'm gonna get in trouble for saying this. Like, I'm feeling kind of warm to JGL of late.

[A]

I feel like he's like, get in trouble for saying, I don't know.

[B]

You know, Lord knows he's. He's done something bad.

[A]

In trouble with who? Bane.

[B]

Not bad, but something corny.

[C]

Do you think Bane's thinking about you?

[B]

That's.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[A]

Wow. That's actually pretty self involved, David. Bane's got so much on his plate right now, isn't he?

[B]

He's like always out there saying, like, I sucks. I don't like it, or whatever.

[A]

His wife is like a scientist.

[B]

Yeah. He seems like he's.

[A]

And it's kind of like his shoulders is like, hey, Joe, here are like 20 bad things that are about to happen in society. And he's like, cool. I'll use my, like, star power to.

[C]

Communicate my platform going, yeah.

[A]

And then I think his movie is about that. I want to say.

[B]

So like, that's kind of fun. Yeah, kind of like that. Am I crazy?

[A]

Joseph Gordon Levin quote, not a punk rock thing to use artists work to train AI for free.

[B]

I mean, he doesn't need to say the punk rock part, but sure. Right.

[A]

It's Rachel McAdams and Joseph Gordon Levitt.

[B]

I love Rachel McAdams.

[A]

Ryan Johnson is producing it under wraps for the AI movie. It's an AI movie. Interesting. Wait a second. Shares story credit with Natasha Leone.

[C]

Okay. Okay. And she.

[B]

She's Russian. She's pretty normal. Yeah.

[A]

I just think not only is the JGL series an ongoing project that we are serious about, I almost think you and Hayes need to be locked in for every time he makes a.

[C]

If he's going to make a movie, man, we got to come and talk about it.

[A]

We may.

[C]

We may have been too hard on Don John.

[B]

Might be, maybe.

[C]

I've been watching the movies that have come out since.

[B]

Yeah, I seen everything in the last 15 years or so.

[A]

Don John might have been the last good movie.

[C]

I think that we were so spoiled.

[A]

We were.

[C]

We felt that we had permission to go in on Don John.

[A]

We were.

[C]

And we didn't know how good it was going.

[A]

I think movies. This. This movie's approach to, like, depicting masturbation habits is very strange. And now we live in a world where masturbation is rarely depicted on screen, which is a much worse way of handling it.

[C]

It's missing.

[A]

It's missing.

[C]

It's missing.

[B]

Aren't we in a world where Gen Z Is like, the only way I know how to masturbate is, like, in, like, a VR cave or whatever. Isn't that, like, what gooning is or whatever?

[C]

That's what's been going on.

[B]

Yeah. So now I'm like, Don John is like, that was a blue collar masturbator. You know, just. He cracked open a Dell laptop.

[C]

Salt of the earth.

[A]

He's just masturbating to human women filmed on shitty cameras.

[B]

Type, like, boobs into Google or whatever. And then, like, Scar. Joe's kind of mean to him and he's like, oh, I like it.

[A]

You know, Creams his jeans good.

[B]

It's such prosaic horniness, like, compared to whatever the, you know, zoomers are doing.

[C]

It was a simpler time.

[A]

It was a simpler time, and we're part of the problem. We made times complicated. Well, we.

[C]

Yes, we shamed him.

[A]

We shamed him.

[B]

I hope he doesn't.

[C]

And. And that has now driven all of youth into a VR cave. It's the only way they can get off.

[A]

They're all stuck in a post Don John V.R. cave.

[C]

Yeah. Because we made it. We made it embarrassing to be Don Jon. And the. And where, you know, it was playing off this Jersey Shore aesthetic that, like, also has, like, encapsulated this one moment in time. Right. That is, I feel like, should be preserved.

[B]

Right. That is just so quaint and old fashioned, that Jim hand laundry kind of thing.

[A]

But also, does Jersey Shore get revived in the time in between when we did the episode? And now I can't even revive revived.

[B]

I mean, come on. Like, that didn't last. I know. I mean, we got something used to produce over here.

[A]

Snucky's podcast. I don't know if you know this. That's true.

[C]

Jesus, Ben. I'm sorry, man. I didn't feel like such a dude. Congratulations, man. That. That. That rocks.

[B]

Thank you. I mean, Snooki.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Not a lot of one name superstars coming out of reality TV these days.

[A]

No. Especially in the podcast world. Who are the one named podcasters?

[C]

Dax.

[A]

We had Seth Rogen on the show, and it was. I. I kept falling into this problem where I'd go, like, yeah, and we have Rogan doing Big Lebowski on the pod. And people would go, joe. And I was like, oh, you can't. Within the context of pod, can't say Rogan. You can't say Rogan, but that. He's a one name but not the first name. I think if you say Joe, probably, but. But not definitely.

[C]

Theo, you say Joe. I'M thinking about Biden.

[A]

Same. And when's he gonna start his podcast? I love hearing that guy talk.

[B]

I really would love.

[C]

He's got a knack for it.

[A]

At length.

[B]

No, but he should do a fucking cereal style podcast about corn pop.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Where he's like, I'm going to prove to you that this guy. I'm going to interview everyone who knew him. I'm going to go deep, like full investigation on whatever pool he used to hang out in. Wilmington or whatever it was. Or it could be called a bad dude.

[C]

I took to the mean streets of Delaware.

[B]

He's like walking around.

[A]

We should plant a bunch of hidden mics in Joe Biden's home.

[B]

Right? Not a crime.

[A]

And just record him puttering and murmuring and release those in one hour installments. I think his monologue out loud to himself on a daily basis is. Would probably be the best podcast I listen to.

[B]

What if he does the model where like Obama and Bruce paired up? Who would Biden pair up with? Musician Wise? Well, like, who's the musician of Biden's age?

[A]

The guy from Smash Mouth. Brian. Brian. It's like Frankie Valli.

[B]

Like, who is Joe Biden's favorite musician? I was trying to tee up. Yeah. Some kind of really old.

[A]

The problem is if we asked Joe who's the musician you want to do a podcast with, you'd be like, that's a call about Jolson. What's he done recently? Mammy.

[B]

His favorite band.

[A]

What's his favorite band?

[B]

It seems to be just like some kind of like Irish folk band or something. I'm trying to figure out, like.

[A]

Good.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, it's just him and Michael Flatley.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is Michael Flowey still kicking?

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah, he's still doing stuff, you know.

[B]

You know, the whole thing with him is that he broke off from Riverdance.

[C]

Right.

[B]

You know, when I lived in England, riverdance was like 40 of the, like economy in that country. And like, so every five minutes when you watch tv, there would be ads for Riverdance or Michael Flatley's Lord of the Dance, by the way, his rival company.

[A]

Same deal in the United states in the 90s.

[B]

I guess it was period of time.

[A]

Where those two things were just playing alternate.

[B]

Did any of you ever see River?

[A]

Absolutely not, no.

[C]

But I feel like I did.

[B]

It's kind of like Irish Rockettes. It's like, again, I'm making a lot of Irish stereotype sort of jokes on this podcast, which is a little. A little rich for me. I'm not Irish.

[C]

Hey, I'll give you a pass.

[A]

Yeah, okay.

[B]

He's pushing over a pass.

[A]

He's handing you a clover. It is one of those things for, like, 10 years you could have play and a character breaks into some sort of, like, step dance.

[C]

That's punchline.

[A]

That was a punchline.

[C]

That's all you need to do.

[A]

And it would hit every single time. Any character breaking into River Dance for five seconds, would it hit.

[C]

This is. This is me to my dad. River Dance.

[B]

And now, Right, Just say it.

[A]

And now if I like, completed joke.

[B]

If I told anyone about Riverdance, they would be like, no.

[A]

What is that?

[B]

Nobody.

[C]

That and the Chanting Monks CD that our parents got into at one point felt like just this moment where it was like, completely agreed. Maybe another culture, but just for a minute. And just one thing they do.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, it's. What is. Is it Enygma who did the chanting monk song or. Right. You know, the pure moods. Yeah, the pure moods. The mix that would come on, Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Just like those guys, whoever was just like, what if we did a monk song? Right. And then they hit. And then another guy's probably like, could I do a monk song? It's like, nope. Like, doors closed. Like, there was one monk opportunity.

[A]

In 2018, Michael Flatley wrote, produced, directed, and starred in an espionage action thriller.

[B]

Sounds good.

[A]

Called Blackbird. Quote Michael Flatley as you've never seen him before with Eric Roberts. It's a Casablanca rift.

[B]

Wait, they got Eric Roberts?

[A]

They got Eric Roberts, and it didn't actually see release for four years. That's what he's up to.

[C]

Well, the movie's made in the editing bay. It is. And nobody knows that better than Flatley.

[A]

He claims to be in pre production for Blackbird too.

[B]

And let me get us. I'll get us back on track with this. If you look at this poster, kind of a. You Were Never Really Here by bloody Eaton. You know, it does look like Flatley is maybe, you know, some who could wield a hammer. Michael Flatley is. You've never seen him before.

[C]

Not dancing, feet planted.

[B]

You were never really here. So I did see this film in theaters. I thought, this is that golden early age of Amazon, pumping out auteur content from guys who were sort of striking out at major studios.

[A]

So.

[B]

Like Spike Lee, Whit Stillman, this. This Lynn Ramsey, Woody Allen. Who. Who else was in that kind of early way?

[A]

Todd Salons, Hal Hartley.

[B]

That was crazy.

[A]

They did three with him, I feel like.

[B]

I mean, because he just. He's Ed Birds. He just Needs eight bucks.

[A]

But he, like, he had a. A little mini second wind and like, love and friendship.

[B]

Ken Lonergan, obviously.

[A]

Lonergan, yeah.

[B]

That was one of their biggest hits.

[A]

Yeah, that was an acquisition, but that.

[B]

But nonetheless, it was like they were consistent. Yeah, very sav. Of like, let's buy up this kind of American art house stuff that used to be common.

[A]

These are the kings of sundance of, like, 1980 to 2002, who have gotten pushed out of the studio system. The death of the mini major specialty arm. We got to get these guys back. And this is one that they. They buy because it was independently financed. It was run in variety. That 824 was gonna buy it, which makes total sense. Total sense. And then during production, Amazon sweeps in and outbids them and gets the rights.

[C]

Swoops.

[A]

Swoops in.

[C]

It's fine. It's whatever.

[B]

But I.

[A]

Thank you. I need these corrections. Is it close to the vest or close to the chest?

[B]

Mike Lee, Peterloo.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Is another one. Mike Lee's Peter Lou. You know, like, we're there kind of like, do you want a little bit more money? Or we'll acquire or we'll, like, you know, we'll sort of bigfoot someone at a film festival.

[A]

And we've. We've talked about it, but it's the shit that, like, Netflix did when they started out, although not as successfully. And Annapurna was sort of based on. Of like, what's the thing that's gotten rejected everywhere else.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

What's the thing no one else will let you make? And we can build our reputation as seeming so artist friendly by supporting you.

[C]

And they did.

[A]

They did.

[C]

And they didn't make any money.

[A]

They made no dollars. They made. Oh. Dollars and no sense. It's. Amazon was interesting because, like, they made Manchester work commercially. Yeah, that movie made, like, fucking 50, $60 million.

[B]

It's one of the last true arguments of, like, you really can put, you know, these things in theaters and get them Oscar noms and they will grow and they'll like, like, you know, have a good run.

[A]

They got big sick to like, 50, 60. Love and friendship. They got to like, 20 something. Like, they had quite a few that were working, and it was sort of like, this is the model. Why aren't the other streaming services doing this?

[B]

Britney ran that marathon.

[A]

He ran the marathon.

[B]

And she ran that shit right into the ground.

[A]

Look, Jen Salke took over the company, made some decisions that affected me personally.

[B]

I will.

[A]

But then also went to Sundance that year and spent, I think, a combined $50 million on late night. Britney runs a Marathon and the Report, the Scott Z. Burns movie. It's a good movie and I tried to give all three wide releases and was astounded when public audiences didn't flock to those films in mass. And the next year declared my takeaway is that movie going is dead and people don't like movies.

[B]

Have you seen Brittner's marathon?

[A]

Yep. Based on a true story.

[C]

You know that you believe that I'm. I'm starting to come around to that being possible.

[B]

I will.

[C]

I don't. I can't just accept that at face value. Like people say that, you know, Fargo says that.

[A]

Fargo says that that's true.

[B]

And you can't.

[C]

Inspired by this kind of thing maybe happened. But I've been tricked before. So I just, I'm hanging. I'm hanging on to.

[B]

We'll never forget being at Sundance. Brittany runs a marathon. The movie ends, they credits roll. Then they give you the black and white photo of like and here's the real Britney running the. And someone behind me being like, who gives a shit? Like just truly the most frustrated junior exec being like, get the fuck out here.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

So what, she didn't like even become a state senator or anything? She just literally ran a marathon.

[C]

It's a funny story to do a side by side photo with like the real ver. Because usually that's like some historical.

[B]

It's like freaking Nelson Mandela or whatever. They're like, and here's the real Britney. I'm like great a lady. Guess what? I go to the marathon every year. I watch them go by. There's lots of people who do this.

[A]

Do you think if Jen Salke goes to the marathon, she's like, this is a development dream.

[B]

50 million stories.

[A]

They're all here. We'll have discussed this recently on this feed, but Bradley Cooper's Is this Thing On? Is another movie that ends with a big. Based on a true story. As if the audience is going, God. I mean that was unrealistic. Such a thing could never happen. I need the assurance an adult man.

[C]

Trying stand up.

[A]

Getting divorced.

[C]

You're telling me this comedian was feeling a little bit adrift? Sorry, it doesn't track.

[A]

Sometimes comedy comes out of misery. It's a way to process our pain. But like pretty like comfortable, white collar pain. David. What? Look this episode, don't act so surprised because it's a familiar friend. This episode's brought to you by Mubi.

[B]

Yawn. Just kidding.

[A]

Comfortable, sure. We love them.

[B]

They are a global film Company that champions great cinema. Iconic directors, emerging auteurs. Always something new to discover with Mubi. Each and every film hand selected so you can explore the best of cinema. Nothing more to say, I guess.

[A]

Wrong. There's a new film coming to theaters.

[B]

Yep. Movie theaters. February 13th. The first Nigerian film ever in official competition.

[A]

Again, that's pretty wild.

[B]

This is a film by Akanola Davis called My Father's Shadow. Is BAFTA nominated poetic, tender portrait of a father, son bond framed within the political landscape of 1993 Lagos in Nigeria. It is about a father and two children, young sons as they journey into and around the vibrantly rendered Nigerian metropolis. Reckoning their relationship, navigating the city that's in the middle of a democratic crisis. Written by real life brothers Akanola Davis Jr. And Wally Davis.

[A]

Love it.

[B]

Brothers co wrote this groundbreaking feature debut. And you've got Sofie Derricu. Oh. From Slow Horses. I love him. I hope I'm saying his name right. Point. But he's a really good actor and he's the star. It's worth seeing. It's in theaters. It's great to go to a theater.

[A]

It's in theaters. We love that Mubi puts movies in theaters before ultimately ending up on their wonderful platform.

[B]

Dang. Right.

[A]

I'm just looking at some of the stuff they got right now. Die, my love. Of course.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

An important watch. A necessary watch for any blankie. La Graza La Grazia. The new Paolo Sorrentino movie which I missed in theaters. Good moment to catch up with it. The great shall we dance?

[B]

Oh, the classic.

[A]

The original.

[B]

Oh my goodness. That's fun. Like a restoration.

[A]

Yeah. And look, they got a collection called Heartthrob. Nicholas Cage. It's young, dreamy Cage.

[B]

Wow. Still dreamy to me.

[A]

Hey, you're very open hearted.

[B]

Anyway, to stream the best of cinema, you can try movie free for 30 days at movie mubi.com blank check. That's mbi.com blank check for a whole month of great cinema for free. And then go see My Father's Shadow in theaters, please. Thank you for listening.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

[A]

Thank you. Very kind.

[B]

I am going to open the dossier because I do feel like this movie does have kind of a complicated.

[A]

It does.

[B]

Or Lynne Ramsey has a complicated journey from her last movie. We need to talk about Kevin.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To hear. I feel like we need to Talk about Kevin is her biggest hit.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It was a little bit of a.

[A]

Breakthrough and especially for Oscilloscope, which was a small distributor I feel like that was very much their highest grossing film at the time.

[C]

Are you guys going to address the Lynne Ramsey backlash happening in the blank check community? Are we even gonna deal with that?

[A]

You've been checking the Reddit.

[C]

Yeah, correct. I'm on there.

[B]

What's, what's the, what's the latest on the background?

[C]

Just that it's basically the least blank check worthy director you've ever done. Like, what's her blank check like? There literally is not a blank check. So like, so it's just like there isn't one. So like, I guess it's your podcast to do whatever you want.

[A]

But yes, yes, yes, we can address this. Look.

[B]

And we also, just for the record.

[C]

Do their voice more like the Bug.

[B]

Man and Men in Black d'.

[A]

Onofrio.

[B]

I mean, she's never pet cat. I think that thread, which always, always happens every single time we pick a female director.

[A]

It does happen every time.

[B]

No offense to whoever started that thread because that thread is obviously totally correct. Or the, that discourse is totally correct in that, yes, Lynne Ramsey has never been handed anything remotely akin to a blank check to make a movie.

[A]

Absolutely.

[B]

But Lynne Ramsey has been able to make the movies she's made.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Which are strikingly independent and dark, uncommercial movies on commercial movies with major stars.

[A]

Increasingly bigger and bigger stars. Yes.

[B]

Right, right. To the. Her latest effort, of course, being her like most expensive, I guess, especially if you include the sort of acquisition of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And most star laden without ever, seemingly ever really compromising what she wants to do now. She's always like, oh, this happened. And I wish this could have happened. And there's always unrealized projects or whatever.

[A]

But that speaks to in fact, her not compromising. Right. I mean, like, we will have covered this in other episodes and we'll keep covering this, but there's so many movies she walks off of, you know, or let's fall apart because she's just like, this is going in the wrong direction. I'd rather not make a movie than make a movie.

[B]

I can't stand for speaking about all that. Let me tell you that after she made we need to Talk About Kevin, she wanted to make Mobius Dick. Correct. I mean, it's got various titles over the years, Mobius being the most common one, but a sort of sci fi Moby Dick epic.

[A]

Then this is Lynne Ramsey's dream project, her ultimate blank check.

[B]

It's like a spaceship movie, but they're chasing some kind of space whale.

[A]

It's a giant space whale. I Mean now, probably. If she could get Payakan attached, she could probably get financing. Right. It helps that there's a bankable space whale in this. In the kind of commercial ecosystem where that's lucky if Payakan will do it for scale. I mean, that's a good.

[B]

She's never been out there being like, I need $90 million to make my space movie. She's always said, I can make it a small budget. I assume it's sort of be like Claire Denise's high life of like. Yeah. This is mostly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Psychological. It's mostly set on a ship. It's like small budget, but you need some.

[A]

It's still like effects 15 probably, I'm guessing.

[B]

Who knows?

[A]

She has generally worked with small budgets. And then the blank check is distributors keep overpaying for her movies. Sometimes that happens. Being surprised when they're a little.

[B]

What do you mean? Nobody wants to see this movie? Jennifer Lawrence is hitting her head into every wall and mirror and window.

[A]

She can see movies rubbing their hands and they're like the memes we're gonna make off of this.

[B]

So while she's planning that, she gets attached to a film called Jane Got a Gun, which I assume, Sean, you have maybe heard of this project.

[A]

This is the kind of infamous. She walks off. Was it like a day before production started? The day after we could talk about.

[B]

It, you know, so she says, like Mobius, that's like her. Stanley Kubrick's Napoleon.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like, where it's like, that's the thing I'm always gonna want to do, but it might always be impossible. But Natalie Portman, who I think admires her, is like, I am developing this, like, girl western. I'm gonna star. It's called Jane Got a Gun. It's based on a. Is it based on a comic book or.

[A]

No, no, it's. It's a. It's a spec. Written by Brian Duffield.

[B]

Right, right.

[A]

Who now has made.

[B]

He made like no one will save you and stuff like that.

[A]

Yes. And spontaneous and love and Monsters, I think he wrote as well. I mean, has a tremendous amount of credits as writer and director. But it was a Blacklist script in 2011 that Natalie Portman gets as a producer kind of coming right off of her, like Black Swan Heat. It is a thing that, like, Natalie Portman has been called out for a little bit that she never worked with female directors.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I would sort of talk about, like, the need for women to stick together in Hollywood and people would kind of side eye her being like, yeah, why don't you?

[C]

Then you do it.

[B]

Just fucking do it.

[A]

And so, like, here she is. She's trying to do that. She buys a script with her own money. Attaches Lynn Ramsey and Michael Fassbender.

[B]

It's going to be her. Michael Fassbender. Jude Law is going to be the villain, is going to shoot in New Mexico. First day of shooting, Natalie Portman shows up. Michael Fassbender has exited because he has to play Magneto again for the third time or whatever. He's going to be replaced with Joel Edgerton. Jude Law and Lynne Ramsey both quit. Lynne Ramsey just does not arrive. It becomes this kind of disaster, variety story kind of thing of producers being like, there's 150 crew members who are getting left in the lurch here. It's a whole legal battle and stuff.

[A]

The crazier thing also, she's accused of.

[B]

Not delivering a shooting script. She's apparently. They said that her behavior had gotten kind of bizarre, like, whatever. I think she was clashing with producers. What do you.

[A]

No, Joel Edgerton was, like, attached and then replaced and then came back in a different role. There was a lot of musical chairs with this movie.

[B]

Ewan McGregor is the ultimate choice to whatever fill the third role. They sue her for, like, quarter, three quarters of a million dollars, which is her fee. It's settled out of court. Like, three years later. Lynne Ramsey finally says when she talks about it many years later is like, at the 11th hour, it's just like, the guy's financing this movie. Just do not want the movie I'm gonna make.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so she quit. I mean, I think that basically completely cements her relationship with someone who is very difficult to work with and just doesn't play, like, Hollywood games well.

[C]

Right?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yes. Yes. And I think the other part of it is it was like catnip for Deadline in my memory. It was like there would be three stories a day. Because it's like this movie is up and running and the director is gone and the lead actor is gone. Every day there were, like, three new stories about. I mean, I'm even just reading here where it's like, on April 5, it was announced that Bradley Cooper would replace Law in the role of John Bishop. On May 1, it was announced that Cooper was withdrawing from the film.

[B]

Yeah, Cooper was, briefly.

[A]

You know, every day it was like, a new actor's in talks, a new actors dropped out. They're meeting with six new directors.

[C]

I know we don't get, like, too inside baseball on the. On the business here.

[A]

But.

[C]

To make a feature film. And I, you know, I've only really been directly involved with one. But to make a feature film without. To maybe Q3.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

But to make a feature film without the director and star is like, extremely challenging.

[A]

Really. Tongue.

[C]

That is generally very bad set environment.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dysfunctional.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, I don't. Yeah. I mean, that's got a negative connotation.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

But I think that's fair.

[A]

Let me rephrase. Non functional. I would say it's going to be pretty tough to make a movie function with neither director nor star Far. No. No movies have done a missing one or the other. Sure.

[B]

The weird. The weird thing is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The movie was eventually made. Gavin o' Connor directs the final version. It came out. It made like $2.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like it was dumped so intensely by the Weinstein Company.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And like 2015.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Don't. I've never seen it.

[A]

Everyone was like, kind of shopping around it at one point. It had like Weinstein, Relativity, CBS and focus features all like, like hovering and then taking pieces and then dropping out and someone would replace it. Like it was this movie with all this energy that they wouldn't let shut down and they kind of like kept the corpse alive and got it finished and no one gave a.

[C]

It's really surprising that all those people leaving doesn't just make it not get done.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But an object in motion.

[A]

But it cost 25 million.

[B]

I mean, right. Could have cost 100, I guess. Well, yeah, it costs a lot of money.

[A]

I'm sure a lot of that was kind of the overruns of keeping people on hold and whatever. But if she had done this, this would have been her biggest. My biggest budget thing. Now, to this. The. The complaint of the Reddit. Right. Or the questioning. It's like you could say, well, how has. How can you define her as a blank check director when she's never had a budget over yada, yada, yada.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Which I. By the way, I'm just telling you what Reddit's.

[A]

No, no, I know, I know. And at the end of the day, this is a podcast. Despite my opening spiel about what we want to cover, that is, I would say the number one thing this podcast is about. And she's one of my favorite filmmakers. And specifically from the moment that I see you were never really here, I'm like, fuck, the next time she releases a movie, I want to do her on main feed. But I think she is interesting in how she has kind of refused the blank check that would come with a lot of strings attached. And even some people more strategically might be like, look, if I make Jane Got a Gun and it's got four big stars and it's a western and it's got more sellable elements and I lose half the battles to the financiers, but it gets released and becomes automatically my highest grossing film, doesn't that help me get Mobius Dick done? Isn't that worth it? As like means to an end and she seems, for better or worse, incapable.

[B]

Of doing that, certainly. So she does what we'd all do, which is moves to Santorini, which is of course a Greek island in the Aegean Sea, falls in love with a Belarusian chef because she has divorced her husband. Rory Stuart Kinnear has a kid with him. And then Jacques Odillard's company, why not, sends her over a copy of youf Were Never really here in 2013. Now I've never read the book. It's written by the Bored to Death guy, Jonathan Ames. So I usually think of him, of course, writing about like, I don't know, I'm in Brooklyn, I need a coffee. Yeah.

[C]

Just to give a little bit of background. He was sort of like a pervy, straight David Sedaris.

[B]

That is actually a really good description of the name.

[A]

Dead on.

[C]

Like, he would write about and it was like, yeah, it was, you know, famous essay about like his late puberty where he talked about like not having pubic hair for a long time and then like, you know, whatever. Having his first sexual experience with a prostitute. But it was all like navel gazy.

[A]

Sort of Rod Sharon. Yes.

[C]

Like confessional work. And then I haven't read many of his novels prior to this, but there's this, which I think is his first time dipping his toe into. Because even Bored to Death is sort of like, what if a neurotic writer was like solving problems and the character.

[B]

Is named after him? It's super Pastichi. I mean, I also enjoyed Bored to Death back in the day. It was fun time.

[A]

He was like a brilliant self promotion promoter and that he made himself a figure which helped him kind of cut through a bleak moment in the literary world.

[B]

It's the Fran Leibowitz thing. It's like if you are just funny and you live in New York and you can just like do panels and do.

[A]

Do panels.

[B]

Chatty.

[A]

He'd do readings where he would like hire an opera singer to read his book out. And he was like boxing on the side.

[C]

You quirky self deprecated. You kind of Feel good about yourself. You're like, this guy's got real problems.

[B]

Exactly.

[C]

It's like, you're like, I can. But meanwhile, he's like a famous, you know, successful person, but it's not threatening to anyone.

[A]

This book does feel like a radical departure from everything he had done up until this point in time.

[C]

So grim and brutal. There's nothing self referential to his life at all. It's just the imaginings of like, this like, you know, this. This man who has this job rescuing like, women who are like in like child sex trafficking situations. But then he. He breaks off into doing this series of like noir detective books. These doll books that are like incredible that feel very much sprung from this. Like, Like.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Right, the Happy Doll. So he's got three of them.

[C]

Yeah, A Man Named Doll, Karma Doll and the Wheel of Doll. Right, the three books. And they're. They're awesome.

[B]

I have not read those. Those are good.

[C]

I love them. But it's like, it's just very surprising that this guy who I was aware of and had this very specific voice just has this whole new chapter, like, has reinvented.

[B]

He said when he wrote this, you never really hear. He's like, this is sort of an homage to first the Richard Stark, the Donald Westlake Wake, the Donald west, like, Parker series, but also like Lee Child, Jack Reacher books and all that. So he knows he's sort of doing not a pastiche, but an homage to like a genre he loves.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

The book is fairly earnest. It is not tongue in cheek in any way, but there is something pastiche about it in that it is very much. The book reads as more of a noir riff than the movie does. And I think what the book is interested in is like, what is the kind of like really disturbing subtext under these stories that we skirt around. Right. Not just like the intensity of the crimes, but also like, what is the inner life of a guy who does this kind of shit? Yeah. And like, what toll does this take on you and what drives someone to that point versus being this kind of like, cool, above it all vacant?

[C]

Well, yeah, Jack Reacher character who's like so untouchable. It's like he's, you know, they're complete loner drifters. And you just go like, because they're too cool and there's no strings attached. They can leave, whatever. And he's like, no. But internally, this guy is like constant suicidal ideation. Like, just like the only thing keeping him going is that he has this like, one purpose. He's identified that he can do that he thinks helps people and that just like keeps pulling him back from the brink.

[A]

Yeah. I mean you were never really here. The title comes from the repetition of the suicidal ideation in the book. That's the thing he says to himself when he imagines killing himself to kind of alleviate the pressure of the idea.

[B]

Of like that's why he doesn't need to do it because he was never really here anyway.

[A]

Right. Which is what this guy's struggling with. He is also physically described in the book as being so much more of a traditional Jack Reacher type. Yeah. Like here's this kind of like handsome. He's older than he looks. He's 6 foot 2. He's 190 pounds of pure muscle. You know. And he looks like an avenging hero. And then the contrast is inside. This guy just wants to fucking die. There's a paragraph I just want to read quickly to your point which is the big thing the movie doesn't over explain. He had come to believe that he was the recurring element, the deciding element and all the tragedies experienced by the people he encountered. So if he could minimize his impact and his responsibility, then there was the chance, the slight chance that there would be no more suffering for others. It was a negative grandiose delusion, narcissism inverted into self hatred. A kind of autoimmune disorder of his psyche. But there was an undeniable element of truth to Joe's paranoiac state. Where he went, pain and punishment followed. And it's like that's the animating idea of like a guy doing this would not really be able to live with himself even if what he's doing from the outside seems heroic. And what would drive someone to do the right thing in such extreme circumstances has to be a little bit warped because no sane person with any self protective instincts can kind of live in this and survive it.

[C]

Yeah. He goes into the worst places where the worst people are doing bad things and then he does bad things there. And then one good thing comes out of it maybe.

[A]

Right. And we love these kind of fictions of like the one guy who's willing to stand up to the bad in the world. Yeah. And ask these questions when these things happen in real life. Of like how did no one stop it? And you're like. Because it's super fucking difficult to stop it. Not just in terms of like breaking down these system and challenging these people, but also you literally just have to go into the depths of hell to even confront these things. And most of the time. People don't come back out of that.

[C]

And he's a guy who is living with so much from his background in the military and whatever else he's done. Pain and flashback and PTSD already, that sort of, like, might as well get more. Like, there's no escaping it for him. Yeah. So it just seems like he's just like, okay, well, I'm the person who can go and do this because, like, it doesn't matter what I see. I've seen it all.

[A]

The book is really tough, but it makes sense as something that someone could read and go, like, there's a halfway commercial movie in this. You know, there is a kind of, like inverted art house taken in this. And it kind of makes him such a specific, striking character. But it is like, the book is more noiri in terms of being in his head. It's not written first person, but it's describing what he's thinking and what he's doing. And it's very, like, methodical and process based on how he goes about these missions. But also it's like explaining him putting the pieces together and solving the mystery, which is a thing the movie does not do. It doesn't have him, like, on the case.

[B]

Not at all.

[A]

You just kind of fit the piece.

[C]

And they simplify the case.

[A]

Yeah, right. But they. Yeah. Yes. But this has.

[B]

Makes sense in terms of there's. Versus.

[A]

There's a kind of, like, pulpy, wicked web of intrigue and corruption.

[B]

The way that Phoenix is playing this character. Also, obviously it's not. This is not Batman, the world's greatest detective. This is not a deductive guy in that.

[A]

No, no.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

No. You see him, like, put it together almost as. Just because he understands suffering.

[C]

No, he's less. Yeah, he's less savvy in the movie because, like, in the book, he's, like, being careful about, you know, certain tracking. In the movie, it's like he calls the guy who's his contact right away, you know, like, to be like, hey, yeah.

[B]

So Lynn's like, I kind of want to do this. And people keep being like, what? This isn't the kind of thing you would do. And she's like, that only made me want to do it more like, I live, you know, I. That energized me.

[A]

But so it is. Sorry. It's Odiard who reaches out to her.

[B]

Odiard's production company sent her the book.

[A]

Okay. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

And they didn't even have the rights, but she's like, I'm fucking sitting in Greece with no Internet and, like, there's nothing to do, and I just start writing the script and then I just, like, get connected with Jonathan because we know, you know, mutual people, and we start chatting about it and I start basically saying, this is what I want to keep. You know, this is the bones of the character that I like. And. And he's all for it. And, you know, she's got a baby. So I think, like, it's like almost a sort of like, I remember not to name drop, but like M. Night Shyamalan saying the same thing of, like, when you have a baby, if you're trying to write something, it actually focuses you because you have, like, two hours to write because the responsibility is there versus the kind of like, yeah, I've got all day. Let me sit at the desk and see what fires up.

[A]

Well, same with podcasting. Now you have the focus of knowing you only have four hours to discuss a movie. It does.

[C]

I think it does.

[A]

David's smiling and he's giving me thumbs up and he's blowing kisses, really saying, I love you. He's so.

[B]

And David's definitely not having crazy acid flashbacks about the Reddit. Well, that's all being said. Yes, yes.

[C]

He likes this.

[A]

He knows this a lot.

[C]

I agree that you. You do end up using your time more efficiently. You're just like, okay, I just. I only have this window, and I had a boss once who said, like, your creativity will expand to fit the container you give. You give it. Like, it's like the natural brass, the whatever.

[A]

Like, it's. That's interesting and surprising because I have zero kids and I use my time horribly. I actually couldn't manage it worse. I almost have nothing but time. And yet.

[B]

So what's the opposite container? Like, what are you in? You're in, like, mine.

[A]

The ocean.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[A]

I almost have negative children.

[B]

You certainly can't say to a 1 year old, like, daddy's got to write a screenplay. Yeah, that diaper is just gonna have to go unchanged.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So, Kevin, obviously, which is her last adaptation, that's a big book. It's epistolary. It's all these letters and stuff. Like, you know, that's a complicated thing, this. She's like the book you could read in 90 minutes. Like, the movie should be just as pulpy and, like, fast in a way.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

It's her version of that, I would.

[A]

Say, but she, she just. She makes the sparsest version of what is already a sparse text.

[B]

She's like, look, I'm trying to make it Pulpy. It does turn into always do, which is a character study.

[C]

Right.

[B]

I feel like this guy's head is full of broken glass. He's suicidal, he's sicking around. Just. He's. Just. Because of his mom, sort of. He's like a ghost in his own life, basically. You know, she thinks about movies like Le Samurai or whatever, about similarly kind of like, people who just don't have, like, a personal life. Right. Like these sort of like. But the Samurai is obviously about the coolest, most handsome you've ever seen, who's so well dressed.

[C]

And the American, too, which is.

[B]

Which is an awesome movie.

[C]

Almost the same movie and a movie you love. Incredible.

[A]

Yeah. But I feel like this is closer to. We've covered a few movies like this, and I always. It is something that sticks with me. It is a type of narrative that I find very effective, which is a guy who. Who passes his breaking point, you know, in a movie where even if the character is able to resolve the ostensible narrative, they're never coming back from this.

[C]

Well, and. Yeah, and they do. I mean, it's explained in the book, too. But he's a guy who's. He's a bad dude.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

And he. But he kind of, like, does the job and then he goes home and he has this little life with his mom, right?

[B]

Yes. And that is not related to what he does. And it's not pleasant. It's not like.

[C]

Like, it's not, like, amazing, but it's like he has a purpose at home as well. When he's not working.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

To take care of his mot, who. They both, like, suffered abuse, you know, at the hands of his dad. And so he's got this, like, I am. I am, like, of value in the world even when I'm not doing this thing. And then that gets taken away and you're just like, okay, so what, like.

[A]

Who am I now?

[C]

What is he. And he's just then gonna be, like, a fucking berserker, right?

[A]

Yeah, because just to spell it out, I mean, you start basically with the kind of his internal chaos. This guy whose head is full of glass is constantly, like, ideating on drowning and things like that. But also these constant flashbacks which start with him being a child, his father physically abusing him, but also the feeling of being in the closet, hearing his mother being attacked and not being able to protect her, which makes a ton of sense as, like, a motivating force that defines the next step of his life, which is he goes into trying to ostensibly help Protect through the professional, like arms of the American government. Right. And he ends up becoming a specialist. All this stuff is not like spelled out. It is like pieced together really well in these like, horrible traumatic flashbacks of just like glimpses of images and association. The, the things he can't get out of his brain.

[C]

They keep playing him. Just that one line. I'm going, what the are we doing? Yeah, like, what are we. And it's like, I assume a really great, great summation of like, if you work in a unit that recovers people from human travel, or if you're in the military in some special unit that it's like, wait a minute, what are we doing here? Like, it's just like things are getting so up.

[A]

This guy's like two main recurring images are being in a closet trying to suffocate himself with a dry cleaning bag, basically just to stop the pain and to stop himself from screaming, which he now does, like as a ritual almost every morning. And, and then the other recurring image is like the feeling of kicking down.

[C]

A door, being minutes too late to recover. Like a pile of bodies, seeing like.

[A]

Like glassy eyed, sort of like numbed young women. Right. And you get the sense that it's been like the times that he became a sort of task force specialists and trying to retrieve victims of sex trafficking, knocking down the door when it's too late. But also the feeling that when he was in the military, he probably was the one knocking down the door on innocent women, you know, invading homes and whatever, towards some greater end, which then makes him go, what are we doing here? I need to be fighting for the right people. But then he's stuck in the darkness of that.

[C]

Well, yeah, and who are the bad guys and who are the good? He has the military flashbacks where they're, you know, like, whatever. It just feels like, yeah, he's very much lost in terms of like, how do I do good in a world.

[A]

That'S so dark and it's broken me. And the book is sort of getting at this feeling of, of the only way I can actually do good is if I cut out all the middlemen, if there aren't rules around me.

[B]

Yeah, she's very anti flashback, but then she sort of has that approach. Like, if it's like post traumatic stress, it's like trauma that he's reliving. It's a little different from like a.

[A]

Full flashback, which I think this movie, very clever, depicts like incredibly well. Yeah.

[C]

So I'll, I, I have a, I'll share a quick Story, which is I was. I was in a car in. I think it was like 2003.

[B]

This is a long time ago.

[C]

This is 2003. I was driving in my mom's Nissan Quest minivan to my. To massage therapy school, as one does.

[B]

Wow, you were gonna become a masseuse.

[C]

I was a licensed massage therapist for a few years while I was like, first trying to be an actor.

[B]

That rocks.

[A]

What would it take to get that license back up and running? How easy is it to get reactivated it.

[C]

You know, I haven't done my continuing education units. I haven't done my CEUs, so I'd probably have to do a little bit.

[B]

I love massage.

[C]

Yeah, it was a school. I mean, just whatever. To take another detour. It's like, I think my mom had heard an interview with John Corbett saying that he was a hairstylist when he was a struggling actor. Because once you got a client base, you, like, didn't have to work 40 hours. You can kind of schedule them around your life. You could audition and stuff.

[A]

You're like, that's more interesting than being a caterer or a bartender or whatever.

[C]

Yeah, it was like, maybe, maybe there's a job like that. And there was a very good school. This Connecticut center for Massage therapy was like a good accredited school for it. That was really close to me. So I went, checked it out. I was like, okay. So I learned a lot about, you know, whatever the body. I. I learned Reiki. I've done it all. And I worked in spas and I worked on the Cirque du Soleil acrobats. At one point, like, as I was like traveling, just doing like backstage work for different shows, but. So it was interesting. But anyway, I was driving to school. I. It had snowed recently. I'm in this old minivan that, like, the dials on it don't really work. And suddenly the speed drops. Like, I go from going 65 to going like 35. I don't know what's going on. I hit the brakes to kind of like pull over. The brakes don't work. So I'm just rolling down the highway. And then the car starts to fill through the vents with like the darkest, thickest, most foul smelling smoke I've ever smelled in my life.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I roll down the windows and people are pulled up alongside of me and they're waving at me. And this woman's going, your car is on fire. Your car on fire. And I turn, I go, I know I can't stop now. Luckily, it had sort of recently snowed. So without really being able to see. Yeah, I kind of am able to drive off to the side up along a snowbank and skid along the snow. It wasn't just the guardrail. There was, like, a pile of snow. I skid along that until it slowed down enough that I got out, jumped out, ran out of the car also not thinking for some reason, Leaned in, leaned back in and turn. Turn the keys and turn the car off and took the keys out, which, like, you think, just felt very stupid.

[B]

You remember this now?

[C]

I remember it now, but I just, like, I. And that. But I, like, had gotten out and went back into it, and then I kind of jogged up the shoulder and the fire was going and the windshield exploded. I don't know the physics of it, you know, if it was cold or whatever, but. But the tires exploded.

[B]

Right, Right.

[C]

But anyway. And then I went back to, like, get my. Out of the car later, and I see the driver's seat that I was sitting in and that I'd also, like, leaned back into for no reason. And it's covered in scorched, like, triangles, which I assume are just shards of molten glass that, like, shot into the seat that I was in.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And, you know, and blank check tie in. There's a Waking Life DVD on the ground that was.

[B]

You know, you don't want to lose that. That's a good. That was.

[C]

That all, like, melted and burned. And so I'm just like, oh, I almost died in, like, the most gruesome, like, horrific way.

[A]

Like a final destination death.

[C]

Totally.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And for months afterwards, I think this movie just depicts really well. Like, I'd be in moments of total, like, peace and rest, like, about to drift off to sleep. It would just be the smell and the heat, and I'm back in the car and like, really classic, like, flashback ptsd. And then the other thing that would happen that they also do well is when I was just hanging out whatever, with. With friends, it suddenly would be like, I can't be standing where I'm standing right now. And things that we all know as, like, a panic attack now. But I, at that time was just like, there's something wrong that I'm gonna solve through some external. I'm gonna move over here, I'm gonna do this, and nothing's gonna solve it because this guy, even when he's staking out and, like, waiting, watching the brothel door, there's a restlessness inside of him.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

At rest. Poking at his skin. When he fucking punches the, like, guy who was late to give him his keys back. The parking attendant.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And you're just like. There's just something exploding out of him that he can't control and he doesn't understand.

[A]

He almost sounds like he's about to cry when he punches the guy, which is.

[B]

That's a sort of Phoenix special. I feel like he's really good at.

[A]

Yeah, don't make me wait. Right.

[C]

But it's like he's like a little kid in that moment. He's like, you know, and he can fight back now, and it's just. But I. Whatever. I went through that, like, very classic kind of PTSD thing, and I do think, like, this movie really puts you inside the head of, like, that kind of experience in a way that's, like, very visceral, I think a big part of it.

[B]

Do we know why the car exploded?

[C]

So, yeah, there was. There was apparently an oil leak inside the car that had created a pool of oil on top of the catalytic.

[B]

Converter, which you don't want.

[C]

And the catalytic converter also was, like, running very, very hot. And I guess enough oil built up on there, and the converter was hot enough that it sparked a little fire inside the thing. And it's bas.

[A]

It's a grease fire.

[C]

It's like an oil fire inside. And it just burned out, like, all the guts of, like, the hood of the car. So that's why then the brakes didn't work, etc. Etc. But it was just, you know, kind of a fluke thing. And one more detail that I'll never forget is that. And I'm sitting in a cop car, like, waiting to, like, you know, for, like, my parents to come and get me or something. And I kind of try to make a light joke, and I point at the car that's, like, you know, exploded, and I go, tough morning. And the cop points at the line of traffic, and he goes, well, thanks to you, it's a tough morning for a lot of people.

[A]

Jesus. It is weird that people just say shit like this to you all the time. I feel like this is a running theme in your life.

[B]

Maybe it's just you have a sort of face that invites people to be sarcastic at you. I don't know, man.

[A]

We. Ben and I were in Austin, Texas, for South by Southwest. And Ben is like, I'm gonna go out. There's, like, a 711 three blocks away and get some, like, beer and some water and whatever, right? And I'm sitting on the couch with Ben's wife, and Ben comes back like 10 minutes later on the phone talking like really effusively to someone right about like. And I just don't understand what motivates people. And I was just like oh, someone very close to Ben in his life has called and is in a bad situation where something really bad happened to them interpersonally and Ben is being a good friend and talking them through it. And instead what I find out that is the inverse that Ben called a friend to check in while he was on this 711 watch. And then a guy made like a mean joke to you. A bouncer outside a bar.

[B]

Yeah, he talks and he was like also such a lame. He's wearing.

[C]

Those are the ones that'll do that.

[B]

He'S wearing like I'm trying to think of the. The dumb band T shirt that he was wearing.

[A]

It wasn't Creed but it was.

[B]

No, it's like some SoCal ass punk band like Pennywise or something.

[A]

It was Pennywise. It was Pennywise. It was.

[B]

And he was just like, like he. I don't even remember exactly the comment. Just like something. Cuz I. I guess I was you know, dressed weird. Even though again I'm wearing the most.

[A]

Normal clothes like nice hat bro. Or something like that.

[B]

Something like that. And I was just like what man? He was just like you're just a cool looking dude. Something like that. And just wanted to obviously start some and had some friends standing nearby.

[C]

You wanted to ruin your night and you gave him just what he wanted.

[A]

Exactly. And then unfortunately that is I. I.

[B]

Get a lot of people to just with me. So I think you and I share.

[C]

I do have that. I do for some reason.

[B]

Look at Mr. Guy with his shoes on. Like you're just walking around. But people want to say I also.

[A]

Feel like your thing is that you make the self deprecating joke and then someone very po faced responds to you being like it's actually worse than you think. You are so thoroughly the problem.

[C]

But I've invited and I need you to feel guilty. I've opened the door exactly like is they're like anybody want to on me? And people are like absolutely. We've been dying.

[A]

I agree with you. Plus a hundred minus humor.

[C]

Like it would have been me walking by that guy going like oh, some hat I got on, huh? He'd be like it's not just the hat man. It's your whole thing.

[A]

But I hate your gate.

[B]

It's not even just your what you're wearing.

[A]

It's your personality and your face. Yeah, there's Something really toxic just emanating from you.

[C]

You. Yeah, I definitely invite a lot of people to interact with me in a very aggressive way.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. I don't know the two of you have that in common. I see it happen with Ben and like I'm always like Ben, why are you like so hair triggered with this? And that night you were just like this has been happening my entire life.

[B]

Right?

[A]

Just guys just say to me this.

[B]

Does not happen to me at all. I truly think it's cuz I'm tall. Not that you guys are short like or I'm like tall and broad or whatever. People are just like, I don't know what that guy will do. Like that guy might do something.

[A]

When people do this to me and it does piss me off. It's condescending.

[B]

Right? Like hey buster.

[A]

Right. It's that sport. How's it going? My, my like dentist receptionist asking if they should send the bill to my mom. And then I'm like so I just.

[B]

Want to tell you that this film was picked up by Amazon for $3.5 million. Like now mad, mad again. They 24 who had bid $2 million.

[A]

This is a point in time where a 24 is very fledgling, obviously is on the rise.

[B]

I mean this 2016. So it's the year they're going to have moonlight at the Oscars and all that.

[A]

They're.

[B]

They're a thing but they're smaller because.

[A]

Like a year later I feel like regardless of what the financial offer is, they sell this movie to A24. Because everyone knows A24 is the place that's going to be able to. To sell this the best.

[C]

Oh yeah. And just they're. They're the Wen movie factory.

[B]

I think, I think A24 would have been a better place for this movie. But obviously I get you just sort of take the highest bidder. This is the year that Amazon has five movies at can the Handmaiden. So speaking of some other like so Park's handmaiden Patterson. Jim J. Another in that kind of like established otur that they're giving a check to. Gimme Danger. I don't really remember what that was.

[A]

I don't either.

[B]

The Neon Demon where the Winding Referen movie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And Cafes. Oh, Give me Danger was the Jim Jarmouche documentary about the Stooges, which is like very fun.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

And so Lynn Ramsey, she just, FYI, she wrote this with Phoenix in mind. She'd never met him, but she was just like no brainer. Is just exactly who I imagined for this. Phoenix is probably, unsurprisingly, very into it. I mean, I feel like he's usually drawn to these kinds of directors and this just does feel like kind of role that would vibe with him.

[A]

They have been talking about re teaming for a while. There were sort of false reports that they had already shot something, but it seems like it's kind of perpetually. Her next movie, Die My Love got knocked up because of Lawrence being attached.

[C]

To Lawrence got knocked up and that sort of the story, huh?

[A]

Twice.

[B]

That's a good point.

[A]

You can read all about it. You can read all about it. But yes, she has said that she had such a good experience working with him when he is notoriously a very difficult man who tries to quit productions and is very at odds with directors.

[B]

But as someone who quit a production, maybe the two of them just are like, exactly.

[A]

I think he is a guy who thrives on tension and is fighting himself and is fighting the production and is questioning himself and is always trying to kind of like, wiggle out. It feels. I think it's what he's relating to in this movie, not in the intensity of the work. But this guy who is like, I kind of hate what I do.

[B]

I mean, she sent him. This is so funny. An audio file, not visual file. Like, not a video of fireworks. Just like. And she was like, this is what's in his head all the time. And Joaquin Phoenix was like, yeah, I get that. Like, rather than Walking Phoenix being like, what? Like, Walking Phoenix is like, that really.

[A]

Clicked for feel, really simpatico. She just talked so glowingly of how little tension there was and how collaborative everything was. And then he, like, promoted this movie hard. It was a thing she called out where she was like, I know he hates this show and he's loath to do it. And usually he's doing interviews with a gun to his head. And he was like, going to, like, Angelica screenings opening weekend and doing Q and A's and shit. Because he was like, I'm proud of this and I want people to see it.

[C]

Yeah, he's incredible in it to talk about. You mentioned that in the book, his physicality is described a little more like traditional, like, action hero.

[A]

This is the thing that you and I talk about a lot.

[C]

The.

[B]

The.

[C]

The way he uses his body in this movie. The like, first of all, he's got like a. He's got like a paunch and like a very broad scarred back. And I genuinely think if he had been, like, shredded, he wouldn't be nearly as scary or powerful looking as he is in this movie. The one thing I love in the book is when he's describing his exercise routine, and he says that one thing he works on a lot is his grip strength. Because his favorite thing once he's in a fight is to break someone's fingers. Because he's like, even the toughest guy in the world. When they look down and see their finger facing the wrong direction, it really gives them pause.

[A]

Like, yeah. And he's like, fighting is like a dance, and you need to hold hands with your partner. It always ends up happening. You always end up holding hands with your partner. But he's, like, the only exercise he does is, like, squeezing like handballs.

[C]

But I believe that from, like, the. The Joaquin version, it looks like that.

[A]

Kind of powerful, you know, like, interest. It has that detail. And then it says, like. But in spite of that being the only exercise he does, he's £190. He's got zero body fat, you know, whatever. And, like, you and I always go like, this is one of the smartest physical transformations an actor has ever done because it is counterintuitive. And so often it feels gimmicky. It feels like actors needing a place to put their energy, but then also kind of wanting the Laudits from, like, look at how much I took on and what I looked at.

[C]

I need credit for, like, the preparation. It has to be visible. Visible to you how much I did to get ready.

[A]

And there's. There's a vanity to it, even when the vanity is. Look at how much less attractive I made myself or whatever it is. And this is just, like, really logical story stuff in a movie where this guy's not gonna talk much and where you need to just build up a sense of, like, who he is from every movement in the history. You're like, yeah, this. This is actually the scariest version of this guy. His strength isn't rippling muscles.

[C]

No, he just. Yeah, he's. He's jiggly. Just this solid mass person.

[B]

The way Ramsey puts it is like, he shows up because they talk about it for the prep or whatever. And wan is like, I do want him to feel big, but not, like, in this Hollywood body way, in this, like, midlife way. And Ramsay's like, he looks like a maintenance worker. I was, like, so happy. I loved it. He wanted to keep the belly and, like, wanted her to show it. You know what I mean? Like, he was like, can you show the belly as much as he can? Yeah. Lynn calls it like body armor. She says he's kind of like Hunchback of Notre Dame. He's kind of like Harvey Keitel in the Piano. This kind of, like, girthy guy, like, who's just kind of, like, solid, as you guys are saying.

[A]

And he, like, looks like a guy sleeping in a train station. You know, he looks like. He's, like, wearing.

[B]

He is a. He's not quite a full. I'm crossing the street in New York guy, because there's a lot of guys in New York and you can kind of. But like, he's a. I might keep, like, one eye on him if he was like. Or not look at him or not.

[C]

You glance and go, okay, let me just not draw the attention of this person at all. We'll just. I don't need to cross the street. But we're just going to hopefully not exist to one another.

[A]

And one of those guys where you're like, is the threat to me or to him, you know, is like, is this guy Hair trigger in a way where he could, like, within five seconds, turn and attack me, or am I about to watch someone have a mental breakdown? Yeah.

[B]

It's something about how he walks that communicates danger. And I don't. It's so subtle, and I don't know how, but it is just a thing where this. This ain't right. This guy ain't walking happy.

[C]

He's. No, he's. Because he's walking with. He has a single purpose.

[A]

Yeah. Yes.

[C]

And he. And it's just communicated through every, like, inch of the way he moves. And also after he becomes injured in the movie. Movie.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And his face is fucked up. And the way that he talks and also the way he holds the pain in his gate and in the way he moves through the other interactions of, like, I am moving, I am wounded, but I am still driven. Is, like, so fucking. Again, like, it's.

[A]

It's perfect.

[C]

Like, I feel it. I feel what he's feeling.

[A]

He's. He's an actor who can do a lot. I feel like that's where you sometimes bounce off him, David, when you feel like he's overly mannered and manic and just kind of being weird for the sake of weird. If he hasn't identified a realistic center. Is that. What is your hesitation with him?

[B]

Let me. Let me. Let me talk if I'm gonna. Yeah. You know, because I'm trying to think, like, when was I getting really sick of him? When I was sort of throwing out my. My hand? It was sort of Immigrant. I feel like you advice sort of.

[A]

Postmaster skeptical of the master performance as well.

[B]

I mean, I really love that movie. Obviously, it's. And I. I think his performance is good, but it is.

[C]

I think about that one. It's a lot in juxtaposition to this one where it's like, there he. He looks pretty frail. He's sort of like crazy and also like violent, but he also feels like he's could be a victim at any moment too. Like. Yeah, he's sort of in this. In this weird in between space and then this. He's completely different. Physical, human.

[B]

He sure is. I mean, I don't like her.

[A]

Her.

[B]

I think he's bad in that movie. I also have not seen that movie since 2013, so I don't.

[A]

I don't love that film either, but I think he's good in it. But this is all the post. I'm still here.

[B]

Well, yeah, pre. I'm still here. I think my take on Joaquin was like. He's like, you know, he's like a sort of interesting star who puts a little English on it. Like, you know, like. And I like the Signs performance. Yeah, I like the Village performance. Okay. I mean, that's those. That. That movie where the boys are kind of pretty heavily cooked. What's the one? Yeah, I. I really love we on that.

[C]

That's the one where he also feels like that he's like a sort of tough, big enforcer guy in that it feels like so substantial. And he kind of can also feel.

[B]

Wahlberg off the screen in that movie. Like, Walmart's not, like, bad, but Wahlberg's pretty, like, kind of doing a standard thing in it. And Joaquin's pretty interesting.

[A]

James Gray, obviously one of the other guys he is just like, completely in sync with. They get each other. Yeah, he's always.

[B]

When's the last time they worked together? I guess it's been a while.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

I mean, look. I mean, now he's.

[A]

Since the Immigrant.

[B]

Yeah, he really does. I know he's always been a handful, but he really does seem like he's become quite a handful. I really like him in Beau and Napoleon. I liked him a lot in Eddington. I can't really stand the joker performances. They like.

[A]

No, I think the Joker performance is the bad version of what we're talking about. It's like just trying to get him to do the trick.

[B]

I didn't really like. Come on. Come on. But that wasn't. I mean, he's fine. That felt like kind of dime store Phoenix to me, where he was just like. And I was just like, this is fine. But like, I'm not.

[C]

I think it's all, it's all just Joker lashback that you're feeling.

[B]

Well, I don't like that the Joker.

[C]

Is so beloved by some of the worst people and that what he is doing in that, as you said, is just like just a bag of tricks without substance underneath. And it is some of, some of his master physicality and some of his, you know, like, you were never really here damage. And it's just this like, you know, collection of parts that don't really work together.

[A]

Right. But it's a lot of acting. And I also think, like, it is very. Todd Phillips is kind of exploiting him in that movie. Like, it feels like he's pushing him to do things in scenes that do not dramatically make sense to show off the range of what he can do do in a way that's just like. Well, that's like an engaging three minutes of footage that makes this character make less sense than he did a scene ago.

[C]

Would you feel differently if I told you that he didn't think the Joker was very good?

[A]

I have heard similar things. I have heard quite a few stories.

[B]

Go ahead.

[A]

About him seeing the first cut of the movie, or rather the near final cut of the film before it had been seen by people at large charge and being like, well, we. This one up, I guess that's like dead in the water. And then it proceeds to win the Gold lion and he wins Best Actor at the Academy Awards.

[B]

Well, and it was right the first time.

[C]

There was a bunch of media controversy around it.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

And I think he was like, oh, that narrative is what's going to drive people to see it more than what it is.

[A]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fascinating. It's fascinating.

[C]

But this, I don't know, but sure, I'm speculating.

[A]

We're just speculating. I. I do like I'm inclined to say this is his single best performance. And it is just interesting. She's, I think, really smart about knowing that he could do all of these things, but that the power comes from holding all of that back.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

David. Yes. HelloFresh. Whoa.

[B]

Hello, Fresh.

[A]

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[B]

Hellofresh. It's a very, very. I feel like it's the number one meal Kit service because like I'm always. Whenever you see one of those kind of recommendation websites with like ah, here are all the options. Hellofresh is always at the top.

[A]

It does feel like that, doesn't it?

[B]

Yeah, over a hundred mouthwatering recipes each week. I'm going to take a look at some. I got some a loaded shawarma style chicken and rice bar. 30 minutes it takes to make this protein veggie packed difficulty medium.

[A]

Okay, what's the easiest?

[B]

Okay, you want an easy one?

[A]

Give me the easiest.

[B]

All right, all right, listen. One pan cheesy chicken tortilla melts dark meat chicken green pepper spicy cream sauce. 20 minutes difficulty easy. This looks pretty good.

[A]

I like every one of those words.

[B]

I love how like the menu it like it tells you like what are the allergens, what maybe you know little things might you need extra like some, some butter, some cooking oil but almost.

[A]

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[B]

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[A]

Yeah, I know this. This is a deal they've had for a long time. And you can finish speaking because there's no added bonus bonus onto this deal.

[B]

To get 10 free meals.

[A]

Right? Exactly.

[B]

And what a free Zwilling knife.

[A]

A free Zwilling knife. That's a $144.99 value.

[B]

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[A]

Goodbye.

[C]

Ding dong.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

Well David, you can't say yes. It's not an automatic door. I have to.

[B]

Who is at the door?

[A]

Hey, how's it going guys?

[B]

And who are you?

[A]

Who am I? I don't know. I'm a cool dude. My name is Rich young nephew Pennybags.

[B]

Okay, so instead of being old uncle Pennybags, you're sort of like a new younger kind of hipped up poochified, right?

[A]

I would say Poochie's kind of nephew Pennybagsified. But yes, Rich uncle Pennybags from the Monopoly game is my uncle. And you know I, I can't take anything away from his success and his career. But I like to do things a little bit differently.

[C]

I like your chain wallet. I like your board shorts.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Uh huh. And what do you have to talk to us about?

[A]

New school banking.

[B]

Oh my God. And what's it called?

[A]

There's a company called Chime.

[B]

Okay, There we go.

[A]

And by the way, it might have helped if your doorbell was ringed to make a chime sound instead of a ding dong. It would have helped kind of team me up better. So maybe just like work on that with the building staff. Chime is changing the way people people bank fee free and smarter banking built for you and to the listener. Because you guys aren't on video. I'm pointing at you.

[C]

You.

[B]

Yes. Because it's not like these old school banks that charge you overdraft and monthly fees. Okay. You got smarter banking for everyday people products like my pay, which gives you access to up to $500 your paycheck anytime. And getting paid up to two days early with direct deposit. Some old banks still don't do that.

[A]

These old banks.

[B]

These old banks with their whiskers. There's no overdraft fees, minimum balance fees, monthly fees. Chime turns everyday spending into real rewards and progress.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. Like some of these old banks like to wax their mustaches in like a real stylized way. I kind of got more of like a neck beard vibe. I'm into like bank fee free plus overdraft coverage. You can count on, you know, things that help you build your credit history stress free. Because I am wildly devoid of stress.

[B]

So some things I want to tell you about Chime, which I know my younger self to the listener, not to our friends. And I do just want to talk. My younger self would have benefited from this. From a place like, you know, because like I had to deal with like overdraft fees and stuff like that at the bank when I had no money. Chime is not just smarter banking. It is the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking banking fee free today. Just takes a few minutes to sign up. Head to chime.com/check that is chime.comblankcheck I want you to go away.

[A]

It might help if you use the magic word. Please. Well, can you put it in one sentence all together at once?

[B]

Can you please go away?

[A]

Fine. Smell you later, dudes. Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Banking services a secured time Visa credit card and my pay line of credit provided by the Bancor Bank NA or Stride Bank NA. My pay eligibility requirements apply and credit limit ranges $20 to $500. Optional services and products may have fees or charges. See chime.com fees info advertised annual percentage yield with Chime+status only. Otherwise 1.00% APY applies. No min Balance required. Chime card on time payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. See chime.com for details and applicable terms.

[C]

Should we talk about his choice to use a hammer? And is this one of the greatest hammer violence performances of all time? Obviously we have to think about, you know, old boy is. Old boy is there.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

True.

[C]

The Raid 2.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

The hammer. Girl on the Train. Very impactful.

[B]

I'm. Now I'm trying to think, okay, like, what else? Because like this. You can't even Google this really.

[A]

Hammer movies.

[B]

Because of course hammer horror sort of dominates here. Okay. There's a, there's a what culture list.

[A]

Movies where characters use a hammer.

[B]

All right, it's saying Ann Wilkes in Misery, but that's a sledgehammer. Which feels very different to me because to me, like, the fun is that it's a claw hammer though, or a ball hammer. It's just like a regular ass hammer.

[C]

This is not a claw hammer in the movie. Movie, right. I can't remember if it is in the book or not. But he does say he likes to use a hammer because it's sort of like a very normal, like daily household object to have. But when you see it in someone's hand in the context.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

Of a fight, all of a sudden it really. People take a moment of pause that it's like different than like holding out a knife or something where they're like, why the fuck do you have a hammer? And he's like, in that one second of hesitation, I can hit them with the hammer.

[A]

Right. There's this, there's this gun.

[B]

It's totally different.

[A]

I feel like it's expressed in the book.

[B]

Drive has a big hammer.

[C]

Yeah, Drive.

[B]

Good one.

[C]

That was. I knew there was another big and.

[A]

Another kind of close quarters hammer thing.

[C]

And of course Thor.

[A]

Of course.

[B]

I mean Mir itself.

[C]

Does Harley Quinn count?

[A]

Sledgehammer.

[C]

I feel like once again.

[B]

Or same with like Ramona in Scott Pilgrim when she pulls out the big hammer.

[C]

We don't.

[B]

We don't. We're talking about a Buster shouldn't be Coming comic book hammer. I forgot about Hammer MC Hammer.

[A]

MC Hammer is. It's one of his top kind of talkies and we're talking feature length films.

[B]

I mean, hammers are one of those objects that, yes, I have in my Home where I'm like, should I be allowed to have. This is crazy.

[A]

It's crazy.

[C]

I feel like at first match, I'm.

[A]

Like holding one while we're doing this episode, and I feel a little dangerous, a little on it.

[B]

Like, anytime. Like, the Ikea destruction's like, all right, now hammer some nails in. I'm like, I shouldn't be doing that.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Like some sort of.

[C]

Oh, my God.

[B]

PhD should do this.

[A]

Leo and Django, although he uses that more like a. A demonstration, a threat of violence than attacking someone with it. Yeah, but yeah, no, he explains in the book, he. It's everything is just like logic with this guy, right? How do you get it done in the cleanest, simplest, most unshowy way?

[C]

I love. He keeps going to hardware stores and buying the same three items. Like, right? Yeah.

[A]

And they call out basically that. It's like a hammer hanging at a hardware store is going to have that paper sleeve around it that's used as the hanger tag bag that he can grab. So the fingerprints are only on that. Then he gets in a car, puts gloves on, takes that off, and it's a clean weapon. And he's like. In terms of, like, he gets a.

[C]

Roll of duct tape, which he can use for multiple things, including, like, patching himself up when he gets hurt.

[A]

But, like, in terms of the work I do, an ax is maybe the most efficient in terms of getting shit done. But you can't hide an ax in a jacket, you know?

[C]

Yep.

[A]

And that there is that transformative aspect of the hammer of like. Like, you're not immediately looking a scance if a guy has a hammer until he's holding it in that way, that close to you.

[C]

And he styled himself as a sort of contractory construction worker looking guy where he always has on, like, you know, sort of like Carhartt jacket, hood, low, baseball cap.

[A]

It's one of my favorite moments in the movie is just that. That extended shot of him unloading from a plastic bag just all his supplies, you know, like the way I was wipes the hammer, the two cans of soda, which is such a bizarre kind of like Lyft driver. Do you want a water?

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Kind of move where this guy gets a.

[C]

An orange soda and a grape soda because he's about to rescue a young girl. He's just like, I want to be able to offer her a soda.

[A]

Which you have to imagine is his routine. Like, he's like, I need to earn their trust in some way in this moment after they've been victimized by so many men to feel. Let them feel a little bit safer. Safe. A soda would probably calm a kid down. But also the choice would help that they feel like they have the agency of the flavor.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like such a nice little detail and the banality of all of this, you know.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Of just like he's just got a shitty shopping bag and it's just a bunch of like three dollar products.

[B]

Yeah. I mean it's all you need if you feel comfortable running at someone and hitting him in the head with a hammer. I guess.

[A]

Guess. Totally.

[B]

Almost anyone can be an assassin.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

If you think about it, I mean, what's some state senator in a. In an Epstein Villa going to do to you? He's just a naked asshole who doesn't, you know.

[A]

Right. Like he's just a naked asshole. Yeah.

[B]

I remember when this film came out. So the film is about a guy called Joe who. Yes. Rescues trafficked girls by usually by hitting someone with a hammer.

[A]

He's getting them. Right. That a middleman hired sort of as a go between security form.

[B]

It is very hard to imagine. It is completely implausible. You just kind of have to roll with it. It doesn't matter. Like.

[A]

Right, well, like there's no way a.

[C]

Guy like hire a hitman or something. But it's like this is like a. A rescue guy.

[B]

Right. But I mean like anyone like that who's like, yeah, I pick up trafficked girls. It's like you would immediately be killed by a mafia traffic to girls. Like you're talking about people under the auspices of the scariest organized crime rings. Like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So it'd be like, oh yeah, there's a guy with a hammer who gets the girls. They'd be like, how about you shoot him with a shotgun until there's a hole inside his body? Like he'd be dead. Doesn't matter.

[A]

Well, I also think the movie is smart about being like, these are like small webs. Not like a huge large interconnected web event. There's people in power, but they're creating smaller circles.

[B]

So that's what I was gonna say. So I saw this film. I loved it. But at the time I was the junior critic at the Atlantic and I was under Chris Orr who was. Was sort of an established veteran there who was in D.C. and wrote a lot about politics too. And I saw this movie and I loved it. And I was like, God, this fucking rocks. You know, I've been a can. And he saw it and he was like, this movie is so, you know, it's like feeding into all the, like, Pizzagate shit about Hillary and all this kind of conspiratorial thinking and all that. And I was like, huh, weird that I was kind of like, I didn't clock that at all. I mean, like, I guess I get what you mean, but, like, I don't think that's what it's going for.

[A]

No.

[B]

But I guess I could see that. Especially if you had, like, a real politics brain. Brain. Like a kind of a D.C. brain.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You could look at this and be like, this is the last thing we should be depicting is this kind of, you know, nonsense about, oh, there's child out there that all the government.

[C]

Now.

[B]

It'S 2025 or it's 2026 when this episode's coming out. And it's basically like, yeah, well, that. That shit's all true. Right.

[C]

Not Pizza Epstein list.

[B]

There are webs of terrible conspiratorial things that people could very easily dispute. Discuss now. And.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, what the. The Epstein arrest is 2008, the original.

[B]

Sure. Yeah. I'm not. I am not someone who's.

[A]

I'm not talking as well. I'm just. I'm. I want to create time. But 2019 is, of course, things become public conversations.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Because, like, Pizzagate basically rises with any force in 2016, which is the time they are shooting this movie.

[B]

Right.

[A]

The Epstein thing, of course, the whole thing that was so insidious about it was. It was like, like out there and not discussed. Yeah. Not just that, oh, these people were letting it happen kind of way, but truly, like, people would report on it, but just not with a lot of force. And a lot of that, of course, is like, institutions killing this story, you know, like networks of connections and power and whatever. Gawker was one of the only publications, one of the only outlets that was like, really reporting on, like, this guy is being reintegrated into polite society in New York City. This guy just served a sentence and is now back to, like, cocktail party parties and this constant kind of drumming of, like, why is no one talking about this? And then there was the one New York magazine piece that has the famous Trump quote. You know, Jeffrey enjoys his social life or whatever. All this stuff is out there, but it wasn't really like, metastasized into the same kind of Dan Brown conspiracy theory game.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And is what I find so bizarre and, like, depressing and overwhelming about this cultural moment. Moment. It's not that it's been turned into, like, a political football, but it's been turned into this odd narrativized force to try to create some new, almost like religious system of pure evil and pure good existing in the world. This notion of is there a definitive, like, Santa Claus, naughty list of everyone who is doing the worst of the worst things? And then we want to believe that there is a secret cabal of people who are just pure good trying to take this down.

[C]

Well, and you, I mean, you can see that obviously immediately after you learn that Malcolm Gladwell is on the flight logs for the Epstein plane, Right. That there's got to be shades of gray here.

[A]

Of course, he was just trying to get his hours in. He has to know. Doesn't mean he's going to do it. He's got to know.

[B]

You making some little editing points here, Benny? No, I'm giving a thumbs up.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

To Malcolm Gladwell, your favorite writer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, I love that guy. Do you remember 10,000 hours? He's my favorite podcaster.

[A]

Right, Sean, an important correct.

[B]

Sean, have you and I ever discussed in person a thing. Thing I'm sure you've thought about, which is when Malcolm Gladwell went on the Simmons podcast, Bill Simmons's podcast, and talked about how like, Nigerian players specifically were like, like the most important basketball players.

[C]

He was making the like, all African born player team. And I think he included Steve Nash.

[B]

He. He said, he. Correct. He said, so I'm putting together a team that's Team Nigeria. And Bill Sims is like, okay. And he's like, you know, so Hakeem. And Bill's like, yeah, Hakeem, right, Absolutely. And he's like, caveat Tim Duncan. Bill's like, well, isn't he from the Caribbean? He's like, yeah, but like, I've done some like, racial math and he sort of descends from Nigeria, so all those.

[C]

Island countries are actually direct descendants.

[B]

And then he's like, Steve Nash. And Bill's like, isn't he Canadian? He's like, yeah, but he was like, born in South Africa and that kind of counts too. And he is one of the rarest. Like, where Bill Simmons clearly is just at a loss for words, does not know what to say. Bill kind of just lets him, quote, unquote, cook for a while.

[C]

The king of going on, like, pretty stupid theoretical tangents related to basketball is, like, fun. It's just like, truly, I can't get there with you. Just go off and then we'll do the show when you're done.

[A]

In Malcolm Gladwell's defense, he was just trying to log his 10,000 hours towards being a fucking moron. He needed to keep saying dumb shit into performance.

[B]

Not important to this episode, obviously. And I'm not saying that all conspiracies are true. Certainly that maniac who went into a pizza place with a gun was not on the level and had been misled. But I am just sort of like, this movie only feels, you know, whatever, it continues to feel resonant.

[A]

Yes. And I think, I guess I think the way, unfortunately, the culture has progressed since this movie has only made this movie better in this way to. To me, I was tempted. I couldn't get myself to do it. I was tempted to watch Sound of Freedom in prep for this episode as a comparison point. And then I had the oh, Jesus moment as I was like, queuing it up of like, am I really gonna sit there?

[B]

Especially because it's like, we don't really need to talk about that for more than a minute anyway. Like, you don't need to devote all that time.

[A]

No. But I just, like, I wasn't surprised that this movie didn't become a film that, like, church groups were sending to the theaters. Right, right. But it was so weird to me when Sound of Freedom, like, weird vaguely money laundering box office phenomenon based on, like, finally someone is saying it, right? And even the guy that that movie is based on, who's been discredited in a bunch of ways, and the director and everyone involved is like, yeah, like, vague jumping off point. And then we created like a revenge thriller, you know, that tried to have like a human heart at the center of it. But this is like a movie about Jesus going in and just fixing all the problems. And the great Bill camp is, you know, Mr. Burns and going like, I love kids suffering.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And this movie is just like, well, first of all, the guy who lives in this world is just. Is going to be broken. And as in the excerpt I read from the book, like, even if he's coming from a pure place, there is something narcissistic about thinking that you need to do this. Even if it is speaking to. To no one else is doing this or someone needs to do this and why not me?

[C]

Yeah, And I, I do. Obviously. It's all, you know, it's. It's fictional and it's a pretty easy, like, line to draw of like, well, the people doing this are people in positions of power and like, so a senator and a governor and all like, these people being involved and that being tied into some kind of like, weird organized crime thing makes sense. But I also do wonder, as we talk about, you know, Jonathan Ames and his history and his fascination in his early essays and stuff with like sex work and off the grid, like weird like fetish personal ads and stuff like this.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

If some of this is like he has heard some element, this is how some of this world operates. And then I'm making it into this like crime movie thing. Right. But that it's not, you know, it's not just plucked from thin air.

[A]

And once again, there is like a banality to it. I like, it's just a fucking like townhouse in East Midtown, you know, with five rooms. And it does feel like this is a very tight web, even if it's connected to some other tendrils. And the core kind of drama of this is like basically between two guys and what feels like some arm of some regional mafia in between.

[B]

As you said, it's a pretty simple story. Like, Joe has this handler, played by John Doeman, who's a great actor. I love him from the Wire and a million other things.

[A]

He's got like an even in between bodega guy who that guy talks to.

[B]

Moises is right, is kind of the.

[A]

Go between whose son spots him and he freaks out and is just living in this constant state of paranoia. So he's now going straight to the guy who he's not really supposed to communicate to in person.

[C]

It's just bad. It's very bad timing.

[A]

Yes.

[C]

He's entering his home through the back alley, which is the only way he goes into his house. And he looks up and he sees this kid on a balcony who knows who he is. And he says, now this person who knows who I am knows where I live, which means someone could torture him and find out where I live.

[A]

Right. It's all vulnerabilities, how he runs through everything. In the book, the John Doman character is not sleazier, but more kind of sad sacky, you know, in a cramped office next to like injury lawyers and is, you know, a perpetual bachelor and whatever. And this is like. Like there's the illusion. I mean, he's like referencing his dead daughter, right. He's got the picture on his mantle. This is a guy who's experienced some tragedy in his own life.

[B]

Maybe he's directing himself.

[A]

That is motivating. I want to do that. But he's also in like a very nice office with a great view and a model of a yacht that he owns. And he's saying to like, Joe, like, hey, and on the other side of this, I'm going to take you on the yacht. We're going to see the fireworks and eat nice steak. Takes where he's almost like, even if we're driven by a good. The work we do is so bad that the other benefit of it is they have to pay us so much to do it. That shouldn't we enjoy that?

[C]

Yeah. We have to have some kind of reward.

[A]

Totally.

[C]

And that's in the, in the book as well. There's this very clear thing of like, this guy wants to be friends with Joe.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Like he's like, we are both in this sort of off the grid world.

[A]

We never hang out outside of work.

[C]

I just wish, you know, like, I just see you for this thing. But like, can we just have a beer together, man? And Joe in the movie, Joe's literally not listening.

[B]

Squeezing jelly beans, I was going to say. Right. He doesn't strike me as a eat steak kind of guy. I don't know. What does Joey eat?

[A]

Jelly beans. The green one.

[B]

Okay. But like, where's he getting his protein food? Right? Like chips and gas station food.

[A]

And as we said, he's got this.

[B]

This 200 squeezes and then the tummy hardens again or whatever.

[A]

He lives with his mom in his childhood home.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

She's in pretty advanced stages of dementia. She's kind of lashing out at him all the time and misremembering things.

[B]

Judith Roberts, who's so good. Who's really good, I think of her. She's in Eraserhead.

[A]

She is an Eraserhead. She's a pretty woman down the hall, right? Yeah.

[B]

She's in a bunch of other stuff, but she's really good.

[A]

Yeah. And he has this almost like, it almost feels like there's a, like an Abbot and Costello comedy dynamic to them.

[C]

They've got some like old. Yeah. Like songs that they used to do and they were. Which by the way, I mean, as you said, she has dementia. And so like, I think part of that is probably intentional. Like, I know my grandfather who had Parkinson's and dementia came to live with us for a while.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And it was that thing that somebody told me, like, he won't know what he had for breakfast this morning.

[A]

Right.

[C]

But if you ask him about something from 30 or 40 years ago.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

They're, they're long term memories and that would so work. So it feels like like they're doing, they're. They're engaging in these sort of playful conversational activities. They did as when he was a kid.

[A]

The routine and that.

[C]

That is still like fresh for her. And she's able to, like, stay with it, you know?

[A]

And even when she's like. When he's dealing with the exasperation of her having lapses of things like running the bath and whatever, he's kind of, like, yelling at her in a comical way. You know, he's like, kind of, like angry, sick.

[B]

There's the darkest little strain of comedy to it. Even though you are. The whole time, you're like, oh, this is gonna end in some fucked up way. Which it does, but it is the.

[A]

Driver'S water all over the floor.

[C]

What were you doing in here? I'll forget it.

[A]

You know, this is a guy whose entire life was animated by not being able to protect his mother when he was young and now is like, she cannot take care of herself. The reason I need to stay alive is because she at least deserves this.

[C]

Right.

[A]

And he's constantly just, like, suicidal ideation. But also, like, the little bits of him, like, holding the knife over his open mouth, that's played for comedy.

[C]

When he keeps. Well, and when he keeps dropping the.

[A]

Knife on his foot.

[C]

On his foot, but just pulling his foot away just in time, which is like dual. Like, staying sharp. Because I'm always, like, in a situation where somebody might try to kill me, and I also want to hurt myself.

[A]

Right. I would like the release. Release from the pain. And she's asking him about his ex girlfriend from 20 years ago and how she would have been a good mother. And you're like, that must have been the last relationship he ever had.

[B]

I think Joe be a good dad. I think he should. Yeah.

[A]

Well, the movie kind of gets there.

[B]

Well, I don't think that's gonna work that way. But, yes. I mean, you're right, you're right, you're right.

[A]

I don't think it's as cut and dry.

[B]

I'll put it this way. I'm a parent.

[A]

Right you are. Congrats.

[B]

And in my parenting strategy, definitely, I have no time for garbage bag closet experience. You know, like, kicking that habit.

[A]

By the end of the movie, I can'.

[B]

You know, be like, all right, hey, I need 20 minutes. I gotta put the plastic bag over my head.

[A]

And he might be kicking that habit.

[B]

I hope he is.

[A]

The other thing is, at the end, we'll get to the ending. Get to the end. Because I find the ending very emotionally powerful.

[B]

It is.

[A]

It's very powerful. But, yes, he gets drawn into this thing. There is a senator who is kind of being tapped as maybe a future power player. His wife committed suicide some years back. There's sort of this tragedy surrounding him and his young teenage daughter has gone missing.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

The book gets much more into the web of the narrative of how it happened, how much that was false and whatever, but it really is just, she's been gone for a weekend. I need you to find her.

[C]

And, and in the, in the movie, it's like he has just gotten a text message from someone who says she is at this address.

[A]

Right.

[C]

In the book, it goes much more into like, the text message is clearly from someone he knows who has just gone to a brothel and asked for an underage girl and, and you know, presumably slept with his daughter and feels guilty about it. So that's like much more aggressive. This is like just kind of thrown away as like he got a text message with an address and there's no other details and you gotta go to this address.

[A]

Yeah. And the book has this very sobering, disturbing passage about the kind of pragmatic reality of this type of thing existing of just like there are, you know, 700,000 millionaires in New York City.

[B]

Sure.

[A]

And then if you add other like, you know, hubs in the Northeast, it goes up to this. And if even 1% of the people with that level of money had a predilection towards this, sure, there's a lucrative business to be built around it, even if the business isn't a billion dollar empire.

[B]

Does it feel crazy that a politician's daughter would be kidnapped though? Does the book explain this? Yeah, like, versus, like some, again, some person trafficked from another country or whatever. Like, why would that be?

[C]

So the, the, the book basically is the, the backstory is that this guy, his father was a powerful politician who was then disgraced for all these ties that he had to the Mafia.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And like arraigned, but he was still, the name was still beloved in the city. And so then he's going to run on his dad's name. He decides that he wants the power. He goes to the same like mafia group that, you know, helped put his dad in power and says, like, I want this. And they say to him, him, you've got to give us something. And basically like, you can be the most powerful person in the state if we have your daughter.

[B]

Right. It's like sort of an old fashioned pulpiness thing.

[C]

It's like a very, like, he's so craven and hungry for power and he's got this like, you know, this terrible relationship with his teenage daughter and just kind of goes like he thinks, the book says he thinks in the moment that they're trying to make sure that he really wants to go all the way with them and that it's just a bluff on their part. And he goes, fine, I'll do it. Like, I'm in. And then when they actually take his daughter, he's like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Like, I thought that was like, gamesmanship. And then he can't find her.

[B]

Sure. So Joe's got to find extreme fy and bargain again. Could. That's not. All of that is just deep background. I feel like in this, it's not.

[C]

Even part of the story.

[A]

I'm just going to say my. My reading different. I think she's changed. I mean, there's like, when Joe is having his version of putting the pieces together, there's the flash of the father sitting in the bed with the daughter with her back turned. And it feels like there's some implication that perhaps there was some, like, incest within the home, that this is connected to the wife committing suicide.

[C]

Right.

[B]

It's that because the main evil pedophile is Alessandro Nivola, who's like the governor.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

But you get the impression that the state senator Gaivato, he's beholden to the governor was also in this world.

[A]

World.

[B]

And Right. It was it.

[A]

What it feels to me like is at some point he willingly gave his daughter to this man. And then. Yeah. In exchange for feeling that that was how to.

[B]

That, like, to climb the ladder or whatever.

[A]

A secret is a wonderful thing to keep thing. But also that perhaps if there already was an unhealthy relationship in that and there was a sense that she was.

[C]

Damaged goods, you know, because he already had this, like, you know, incestuous thing.

[A]

The book goes into the. The horrific value of the idea of a child that has successfully been Stockholmed and kind of like neutralize them to be willing to not will.

[B]

All right. Actually.

[A]

But I think that's sort of what's going on here is it's. He comes across this girl who you're from things like Taken and such, expecting to see be like a crying mess. And you're like, no, there is a numbness to the degree of trauma.

[C]

Yeah, she's. Yeah, she's got this, like, countdown thing that she does to just, like, sort of exist through these moments.

[A]

The most heartbreaking moment in the movie is him coming across her and she just, like, can't even climb clock that someone is there to save her because she's just in countdown mode, which is how she passes the time as these things.

[B]

But also every man is not to be trusted, essentially.

[A]

David, have you.

[C]

Because you have to watch all these movies for your job. I find that, like, as we're talking about, like, this Lynn Ramsey series, and I always had intended to watch we need to Talk about Kevin. And then once I became a parent, I said, I don't think I can watch it. I don't want to think about.

[A]

You actually don't want to talk about it, do you? Yeah.

[B]

Do you?

[C]

I just kind of have a transformation.

[B]

Y. There's certain things where I'm like, oh, I don't want to watch that. But I. I know I have to for my job.

[A]

We did Park Chan Wook when your daughter was like, two, and you were very open about that being a particularly tough one for you, because that has a lot of.

[B]

That is like.

[C]

Like.

[B]

Right. Little kids screaming and being tortured and stuff. That's the most extreme thing.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I have, I'll confess, not watched our friend Alex's segment in VHS Halloween, because I'm told that is, like, literally just all kid torture. Which I know he's. I. I appreciate what he's going for and all that, but still, I'm just kind of, like, not sure I want to do that right now. But, you know, I'll watch a movie like Hamnet, because I love him. Nets, of course. And I know, like, this is about. Like, this is. This movie is like, the crux of this movie is a kid dying. Well, not just, like, dying off screen in some, like, kind of poetic way, but like a kid, like, suffers and dies on screen. And I'm like, I'm just gonna have to kind of endure that. Like, I know I won't love. Love that.

[C]

It's glaring to me how much prestige tv, drama, etc, is all hinges on, like, a kid's been killed.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And I don't think I saw it before. This is something me and my wife.

[B]

Run into a lot.

[C]

And how many movies that I enjoyed and I do, obviously I like this movie. I think it's very good. But how many movies, even in this genre that I enjoyed and used to think were cool and Park Chanwick, stuff like that I now am so uncomfortable with and can't watch. And I, you know, people are whatever about this, but I. I have a theory that I developed while I was watching this and thinking about we need to talk about Kevin, which is, of course, there are movies where someone's wife gets killed or someone's, you know, like, other loved ones disappear. But with adult relationships, both the character in the movie and whoever like your partner is in your life. Have such a distinct identity. Identity that I don't think it transfers the same way as kids are always used as just, like, a symbol where they don't really have a personality.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And your own kid is always, like, unformed in this way where it's like. Even if it's totally different circumstances and like, a totally different, like, world than you're in, you cannot help but think about, what if this was my kid?

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You cannot do it.

[B]

There's some side of you that's absolutely.

[C]

It's really. Yeah.

[B]

I do try to just, like, click on Critic Brain. And Critic Brain loves this movie. Movie. And this is not a movie that's as triggering for me, I guess, because it's so stylized and, well, and somewhat.

[C]

Part of the world. Even just the thing of, like, the story is like, this guy was voluntarily involved in this thing. You know what I mean? It's not like a normal person who. Something horrible happened to them.

[A]

This is like a horrible situation of his own making of the most extreme Faustian bargain.

[C]

Yeah. It's an evil person who was making really bad choices.

[A]

I also think it's, like, the power of this movie, which is its restraint in showing things and even saying things, is, I think, largely driven by a. There's no way to depict these things realistically, emotionally, visually, what have you without insane. Risk of being insensitive, glib, melodramatic, salacious, all of the above at once, you know, and even a movie like Taxi Driver, which this is, like, a little bit analogous to, is all about, like, is this guy insane? Is this in his head? You know, the question of, like, how much you connect to whoever is the protagonist of a film and all these sorts of things. And yet is a movie that was, like, misread horribly by the wrong people.

[B]

You know, I'm not.

[A]

I'm not talking about cultural responsibility, you know. You know what I'm saying?

[B]

Fair.

[A]

And I think in how it, like, pulls back from both the violence and the sex as the physical acts and even, like, really talking around them and putting a name on it.

[C]

But there's nothing really super graphic in it for how violent and. And talk the story is.

[B]

There's nothing graphic. Super graphic sexually. It's all left to you.

[A]

Which he pulls his tooth out.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, like, to me, the iconic image of this. There's many iconic images of this movie, but it. You know, so. And in the plot of the movie, he rescues the nina from a hotel or whatever.

[C]

Oh, and the piggyback Ride.

[B]

Right. But then like, is then like him opening the door to the guy who then gets shot onto him.

[A]

They've led someone to him.

[B]

And just the globs that land on Phoenix's face. Just the big old bloody globs.

[A]

I take it back.

[B]

I low key love, like I, I love that kind of gore, unfortunately.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

I don't know what's the matter with me on that, but I mean, I'm a movie fan and I enjoy, enjoy, you know, movie violence in a way.

[A]

Like I feel like obviously enjoy real life. Every other moment of violence in the movie is either fairly obscured, you know, like the security camera rotation, which I just love that it's like a fucking five Nights at Freddy's thing where it's like it's just gonna switch every three seconds. And you might be on the action or you might not.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Or you're very often seeing the aftermath. Like the goriest things are like him walking into the James Doman's office. Office and like seeing his destroyed hands, you know, and you're holding those hands are tough. Gnarly prosthetic for a while. You know, Alessandra Nivola's like slit throat. Discovering his mother's body. But you don't see the violence being committed.

[B]

But the corpses are nasty.

[A]

But it is a reframing of like. No, you have to like lie with the aftermath of these things versus these movies that often have this kind of like somewhat exciting expression of violence. And then you cut away the second the bloody thing happens. Happens. What if instead it's like you start on the reveal of the bloody thing and then he's just lying on the floor next to this.

[C]

He's piecing it back together. Can I, Can I tell another very quick story? Did you guys hear the story about the big giant dog that we found? The malamute that was running around the neighborhood? So we found this malamute running around the neighborhood. And my wife and I bring it home.

[B]

It's like an Alaskan husky.

[C]

Yeah, it's like a 9, 500 pound dog. Like big giant husky. And we're trying to find the owner and we track down the owner finally. Like, and it's this guy in the neighborhood, much older, like sort of frail older guy. And he comes to pick up the dog. It's this huge dog. And we're like, how, what's going on? Like, how do you have this dog? Why was the dog loose? And he's like, my son just rescued my dog died two years ago. My son just dropped this dog. Off at my dorm was like, you have a dog now, dad? And then left. And my wife is, like, concerned about the man and the dog and, you know, can you take care of him? And she's like, so can you, like, control this dog? Like, are you able to walk it on a leash? Because I was getting dragged down the street by it, and I'm famously strong. And he. As he's answering, he's like, well, not really. And a cat runs by, and the dog lunges and the guy falls and he, like, smashes against the ground, and he, like, breaks his glasses and he has a cut on his head, and he goes to push him himself up to stand up. And both he and I see at the same time that two of his fingers are pointed just 45 degree angles in opposite directions. And it's one of the most chilling, like, gruesome things I've ever seen. But I think about it with both that guy tortured, like, and the, like, how he says, like, breaking someone's fingers at a fight. I was like, yeah, something about this. It's not like there's no bone sticking out. There's no blood, there's no anything. It was just like the joints are facing the wrong way, is wrong. And it's like. And he looks at it and I look at it, and we're just like. I was like, that's. That's very bad, you know, and then we really tried to get him to, like, go to the hospital.

[A]

And then he said, brother, it's so much worse than you think he was, dude. And you're the problem.

[C]

I know. No, he was. He was just like. We. We called the ambulance for him, and he kept telling us not to. And then he insisted on driving himself. And the ambulance people were like, like, there's. We can't force him. He said. He said he's going to a hospital. He told us the address of the hospital. I guess he's gonna go.

[A]

That's another part of this, is these movies often have this. These kind of rigged prosthetics. Right, Right. Yeah. That you see for an experience.

[B]

Part of what you enjoy.

[A]

One Second Shot as a movie fan.

[B]

Like, watching how those things work.

[A]

But you even think about, like, you see half a second of fucking Emilio Estevez's head getting crushed in the elevator shaft in the first Mission Impossible. And I feel like that is a thing people are able to age or like, that's one of the nar. That haunted me as a kid. Right. And it's crazy. And if you watch it frame by Frame. It is crazy, but it's not that graphic or visceral. And you don't have to sit with the aftermath of it.

[C]

No.

[A]

And by cutting to these things, either him discovering the bodies in these states or seeing the people after Joe has attacked them without seeing them attacked, you're left with the lingering image of what's going to stay in his head. That's sort of what I think she's communicating. So it's like you're saying you see a guy's fingers look like that, you're going to have that image in your head for the rest of your life.

[C]

It's true.

[A]

And that's not something you did to this guy, and that's not something that was done to one of your ultimate loved ones. And this guy has to experience both of those things happening all the time.

[C]

Yeah. And it's something you saw, and you're like, okay, that could happen. That could happen to me.

[A]

Could.

[C]

I've seen it happen to someone.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And you're just. Yeah. You're just walking around with it for a while and. Yeah. He has a million of them. The thing with his mom, like. And they have the scene where he, like, goes to, like, dispose of the body himself, too. But in the book, that they don't explicitly say here, but that they. They put a pillow over her head before they shoot her.

[A]

You see a pillow with a bullet hole. Yeah.

[C]

And that he, in the book is, like, basically, is obviously very upset that they killed his mom, but is also like, they're cowards. Like, they couldn't look at what they.

[B]

Were doing they didn't want to look at.

[A]

Right, right. That's almost more offensive to him. Yeah, yeah. And then. Right. You have this, like, a moment I think only Lynne Ramsey would put in a film where he, like, discovers the body, sees the pillow, takes it off, you know, blurry, deep background. You see him removing everything. Her glasses that they clearly shot through, putting it on the mantle. You see her, like, bloody head in the background, but not too explicitly. And then he hears the creaking of the footsteps. And he, like, has the gun. He goes downstairs. It's, did you do this or did the other guy do it? You know, he's immediately like, this would have taken two people.

[C]

Y.

[A]

Who's the other guy? Are you working for him? Is he working for you? He's sort of interrogating him, but then the intimacy of him, like, giving him the water to keep him alive so he can get more answers out of him also is like, this is a Man who was trained to do this.

[C]

And then the guy. Then the guy taking his hand as he's dying.

[A]

And then they just lie on the floor together and sing the songs on the race radio.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's like, this is. I. I live with the weight of taking people's lives in a way that you don't, because you wouldn't even look at her face. And you left her upstairs. And I'm gonna lie here with you because no matter what, I. I'm stuck with the image of you dying forever. For the rest of my life.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and then he has this kind of, like, elegiac funeral for his mother. Like, he puts on a suit. It's the only time he dresses nicely in the entire film. And, like, brings her in the woods and takes the water. Johnny Greenwood score in this movie is un musical.

[B]

I used to listen to it a lot.

[A]

To it a lot.

[B]

I would sort of be like, hm, this isn't the best, like, kind of just sitting at your desk.

[A]

Music. But there were the couple. There were the trees.

[B]

Tracks, like, really good.

[A]

What is it? Like, tree synthesizer and tree acoustic and whatever that are the more kind of like.

[C]

Like. Yeah, this beautiful, like, ephemeral sound. Like. And then there's also like. Like that sort of like, percussive thing when he's, like, walking down the hallway, like, out of the hotel. That's just like, so cool.

[A]

We should also call out. It's basically like an hour of the movie. Is like, understanding this guy, watching him go through this case, retrieve her. He brings her to the hotel before the door gets knocked on and he sees the guy get shot. And this, like, SWAT cosplaying guy comes in and extracts her. They see on the news that her father committed suicide. And Joe's immediately, like, this whole thing is kind of.

[C]

This is bad. I'm in something.

[A]

I'm in something. I don't understand.

[C]

I'm in over my head. I did not just get hired by this guy to recover. He's in the middle of something much bigger. Right.

[B]

I mean, the fact that the cops are involved.

[C]

Yeah. They're not SWAT cosplay. Right.

[A]

They're.

[B]

They're cops. They're crooked. They're like cops in the.

[A]

No, you're right, you're right, you're right.

[C]

That was like he. Because in the. In the book again, like, he goes to this thing of, like, they didn't have time to hire professionals, like professional hitmen to come and kill him. But there's always some dirty cop in town that they can just, like, have come do the job.

[A]

Yeah. It's, by the way, a smart choice, that in the book, I feel like the father is made a little more overtly nervous, defensive, on edge, sleazy. And here it's like a guy with a tremendous amount of contrition and concern that as it unfolds, you're like, oh, a lot of this is guilt. It's not just worry.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

It's both. Right. But he's sort of like, trying to console her in this moment as he's realized, like, her entire life has just collapsed. I just hit the microphone with a hammer by accident.

[C]

That really scared me.

[A]

Microphone needs to know the power structure of this podcast. I just needed to know what's.

[B]

I don't know. Let's not do that again.

[C]

Scary to me. How old were you when you realized.

[A]

You were the son of a president? I don't think anyone's ever asked me that before.

[C]

FX's love story, John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Bessette. I didn't think I could love someone.

[B]

Like this until you.

[C]

From executive producer Ryan Murphy.

[A]

It's not a question of if I.

[B]

Want to spend the rest of my.

[A]

Life with you, it's if I'm cut out to be Mrs. JFK Jr. FX's.

[C]

Love story, John F. Kennedy Jr. And Carolyn Bassette. Watch now on FX, Hulu and Hulu on Disney plus for bundle subscribers.

[A]

He's, like, immediately clocking, like, there is no normal life for her to return to, and I don't know how to keep her safe. And then within, like, a minute, she is taken, and then he goes home and his mother is dead.

[B]

Every right, just a death wave is rolled across everyone he knows.

[A]

Complete collapse of life. Like, I might basically by default be her primary caretaker. And also my entire life is collapsed. And they know everything about me and they know where I am.

[B]

No offense to his life, but his life was shitty. I mean, it didn't take a lot of work to blow up his life.

[A]

In any other circumstance, if he had come home and if he had come home and his mother.

[B]

I have a Patreon. I can't be judging Joe the assassin.

[A]

His Patreon numbers are really bad. If you look him up on graph, that was.

[C]

That was the saddest part to me was seeing him go to check his.

[A]

Checks, checks his double digits, low double digits, and the tiers are really vague.

[B]

Where you're just like, too many tears.

[A]

Too many tiers, and you're sort of like, if I come up with something fun, I might put this here.

[C]

And they're redundant. Like, some of it is like, well, what is the reason for this tier existing? When you get, like, basically 90% of that in the. In the next tier, you always have.

[A]

That luxury tier that's like, for $100. It's all the same things as the $50 tier. But you give me more money, Wink. Kind of. Yeah.

[B]

I just love it when there's nine tiers and you get to the ninth tier, and it's like, everything in the last eight tiers, and I'm like, I have to go back and read every other tier.

[C]

Give me the bullet points.

[A]

Give me the bullet points.

[C]

Come on, Joe.

[A]

You can tighten the language on each tier, but just remind me, speed run them. No, I think if he had come home and his mother had died in her sleep a day earlier, he would have just killed himself. Right. But it's the double whammy of.

[C]

Of there's a person out there that I'm responsible for. I'm the only one who knows this person is in danger. I could go and help. And they. They make that clear. Like, he has a flashback to her. He's like, okay, I guess I'm done. And then he's like, nah, fuck, I have a job still.

[A]

Here's a guy who's defined by the fact that no one was able to keep him safe, you know, in his childhood, and he doesn't want that cycle to continue. As much as he's not like, maybe this is a chance to test being a dead dad. He does fall into this. I'm the only person who can solve this, and I actually just feel enough of an attachment to her as a person that I can't just turn a blind eye to this. And then you have, what, in 99 out of a 100 other movies? Feels like the ramp up to, oh, the next 40 minutes, we're going to get the most cathartic. He takes them all down.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And he goes there and it's over.

[C]

Well, yeah, it's like another kind of security cam thing where, like, you just see him take out the, like, guard on the way and. But you just. You kind of are just seeing, like, the, like, lawn footage of, like, okay, that guy's down and then goes in. And then the person who he came to have his big confrontation with that is going to be so satisfying is already dead.

[A]

Alessandro Navola, who's like, the only other recognizable major name actor in this movie who. You're like, oh, he's the big bad. We're going to get some awesome monologue and then like Joaquin's going to take him down. Doesn't have a line in this film. He sure doesn't like, doesn't speak. You need a guy who's that much of a. That guy to have the sense of power he holds and to have him stick in your brain. But then he gets there and there's no resolution for him. Right. She has just killed him in self defense.

[B]

It's all incredible to sort of piece together as your. As a viewer.

[A]

Ab.

[B]

It is. It's really.

[C]

And it's disorienting in a great way. You're in his head where it's like, this guy's dead.

[B]

Like, I don't get to do, you know, my revenge.

[C]

Right. And then he goes downstairs and then she's sitting at her hand. Hands are all bloody and she's just like finishing a dinner that was just on the table, like eating. It's so.

[A]

And he's like taking his shirt off. When he gets in there, he's Bert Kreischer mode. He's like, you're ready for like him to go like warrior mode on these people. Yeah. And then instead it's just like he's got this swollen cheek. Right. He's kind of just like stumbling around and when he sees the body, there's the first like, why was this taken away from me? Immediately follows.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He's.

[C]

He's like, I'm. He's like cries for himself that he's not going to get like the release.

[A]

I can't complete this arc for myself, give myself closure. And I think the additional thing is he very quickly does the math of she did this in self defense and.

[C]

Now she lives with having killed someone.

[A]

And I hate that.

[C]

And I, I should have been the.

[A]

One so she wouldn't have to save her from that. From doing this.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And she's downstairs trying to just like be normal. Eat dinner while covered in blood with a switchblade knife next to her. Or like a shaving razor. Straight razor, a straight raiser. And she's shaking. It's like the first time in the movie where you see her having the physical effects of trauma rather than just kind of going bling dumb.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it is this like, moment that ties the two of them together of like, oh, fuck. You know, it's almost like, oh, you got bitten by a vampire too.

[C]

Yeah. No. Yeah. Yeah. You got, you got the, the same virus that I do.

[A]

Exactly. We're living with the same thing.

[B]

And then she says it's okay, Joe.

[A]

Right in the diner.

[B]

Oh, it's later in the diner. It's. So they go to the diner because, I mean, who doesn't want to go to the diner after all this to get some pancakes or whatever?

[A]

And he imagines 40s, 50s pop music playing.

[B]

He imagines shooting himself, which just like instant Twitter meme.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. But right, like, you know, that's become like this kind of like jokey like way of people like, you know, the fucking Mets lose and someone just posts Joaquin suiciding in a diner.

[A]

But also it is like in this way that Lynne Ramsey can take very literal things from books and express them into a mood that doesn't turn it into a plot point or an overt statement about the movie. It is like this is the visualization of the line of thinking of, you were never really here. That isn't even said in the film. There's no internal monologue. There's no him whispering that to himself where his fantasy is, if I saved her, my mom is dead. Can I just shoot myself? And if I shot myself in the middle of this diner, would everyone act like I never even existed?

[C]

Yeah. All the conversations continue at the same volume. No one has any reaction to the fact that he just shot himself. He doesn't matter.

[A]

The first time I saw this, I for a second thought it was real. Right. And then, you know, it's a fantasy when the waitress is still serving because of the conversation.

[C]

Yeah, that's, that's what gives it away.

[A]

That no one fucking reacts. And then she comes back to the table and he's just resting his head on the table in the same position as if he had shot himself. And she says, it's okay, Joe, it's okay. And for the first time you're like, she has grown up right? There was obviously like her, her childhood has completely been taken from her. But rather than like existing in a self punishing state, she is reaching out because she understands him for the first time. And even if it is not like an obvious father daughter relationship, they are two people who are maybe gonna give each other a reason to like stay alive because they share a horrible language that can maybe help each other work through this. And I think the moment of outreach, which is like the first and only time in this movie that you see anyone try to do anything to help him emotionally coming from her is, is like so profound and emotionally overwhelming to me.

[C]

Yeah, well, and he's this guy who has, you know, really wants to stop existing. Yeah, sure. But has this, this core Inherent, singular sense of duty that he can't put to the side. And then her coming to him and being like, wake up, Joe. Like, is like, it's a beautiful day. You've got. Yeah, you.

[A]

It's a beautiful day.

[C]

You still have something.

[A]

You know, the thing that he feels like he has to live for, or at least that he forces himself to live for, is a guilt and a burden and an obligation. And part of his mother being seen, Niall, is that when he's trying to take care of her, she yells at him.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And that everything's a fight, you know, that he can't even get the satisfaction of the appreciation of helping his mother in her old age and having some emotional closure on that. So everything is just like a fucking weight on him. And this is like the first time someone is just saying to him, kind of like, I see you. I know it's tough. It's another day. You know, you just have to.

[C]

It's a Beautiful Day. That was the title it was released under in some countries.

[B]

It is called that in some countries. Living. Yeah, yeah, sure. Just keep living. I very much support that. I don't support some of the actions in this film, though.

[A]

Which ones?

[B]

Well, I think he's a little hard on these guys. Maybe, like, you know, marketplace of ideas.

[A]

First just discuss. Hear them out.

[B]

No, it's. It's.

[C]

It's a huge bummer of a movie. I recommend the best, but, like, okay, something about.

[B]

It's about things that are incredibly sensitive and tough. So, like, if anyone ever says to me, like, I just don't want to watch that I would be like, never put.

[C]

Don't do it.

[B]

At the same time, I find. And it's also light on plot, basically has very little dialogue and is a little inscrutable for a while. Like, it's not like. Like a movie where you're like, I totally get what's happening. I still think it's basically just, like, kind of super watchable.

[A]

Yeah, well, it is.

[B]

I know that.

[A]

Yes. No, it is.

[C]

It is a very pulpy sort of, like, classic story. But then, because it is inscrutable, intentionally disorienting in spots, and you're piecing it together, it does feel. Feel like an elevated version of that kind of thing. And I love that kind of thing.

[B]

There's no way, like, I'm not, like. I mean, it made, like, nine or $10 million worldwide. I think I made a little bit of money.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's not a movie where I'm like, I can't believe that Wasn't discovered on a big scale. It's like, no, that's a. That's a 10 percenter.

[A]

It got a bunch of indie spirit nominations. It got British independent film nominations. It won screenplay and actor at Cannes, even though it was then dramatically recut after that.

[B]

That's her.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, her movies are debut at can and, like, they ain't dumb, by the way. Like, but it.

[A]

But it got a rapturous response.

[B]

Can's pretty friendly to her, and he won best actor there. It's true. Like, and he's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, and I do think it's a major movie in his U. Even if it's not much discussed now. Like, yeah.

[A]

Weird way it's. It's the totality of the 2018 and the range of it. Then, like, makes Joker, which is such an obvious dumb showpiece. Have everyone go, like, yeah, I guess it's time to just give him the Oscar.

[B]

He has can and Venice. He doesn't have Berlin. I'm always interested to know know I need to, like, do a project on this sometime.

[A]

Who has the triple crown of, like.

[B]

People who have gotten best because you can do it with, like, who's won the. The top prize.

[A]

Venice gave him best actor. For Joker.

[B]

No, for the Master.

[A]

Oh.

[B]

With Philip Seymour Hoffman.

[C]

Much better.

[A]

They shared it. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. They gave Joker the Golden lion, which is interesting because it's a dog movie.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But, like, yeah, it's just like, you know, those kinds of rare actors who do a lot of movies that would get to festivals and then get, you know, it's just a rare thing.

[A]

Here's my other thing I want to say about this movie is that that, like, the thing I find gross about we go the politicizing, the narrative.

[C]

Go off.

[A]

Griffin of these types of things is that very often it is based in this. Like, I want to see, like, vengeance executed. I want to see all these guys taken down. I want someone to call them out. And there's so little discussion of the people who, like, suffer inside of these systems. And we're seeing it happen, like, right now, we're recording this months before it comes out. But I guarantee you, whenever this episode comes out, the same will be going on. And this is a movie that, like, makes you think of the people. Right. In a real way.

[C]

That's like, the characters inside it, the.

[A]

Characters who are suffering is not fistically obsessed with the powerful man doing the terrible thing, which I always barely get.

[C]

To know them at all.

[A]

There is this, like, perverse kind of, like, morbid fascination with, like, how can anyone be capable of something that evil? But spending more time thinking about them than the people who are on the receiving end of their actions is, like part of a giant cultural problem. And I also think you saying, David, like, I understand if I were to say to someone, like, you should watch this, and they go like, I don't want to see movies about stuff like that. I couldn't push back on them. But you're also like, anyone who would say that has probably seen 20 generic action movies that are about this in a glib way, you know? Yeah.

[C]

I mean, yeah, it's.

[B]

It's very.

[C]

It's very similar to Taken.

[A]

It's super similar.

[B]

It is.

[C]

It really is extremely.

[B]

It's just a completely different, different mold of it. But it is like, yes, a shadowy ring kidnaps a, you know, a dog, you know. Yeah.

[A]

But it's. It's removing the distracting pleasures that give you an easy way to process these types of things, while also making you think about the harder things, not in a sort of torturous, graphic way. And I think to that extent, it is kind of a movie about our relationships to these kinds of stories. Race and which parts of them we want to think about, which parts we don't. And that, like, makes it feel. Remain very sticky to me, even though I. I do feel like it has disappeared a little.

[B]

A little bit. Ben, had you seen this movie? You'd seen this? Yeah, no, I went to see it.

[A]

In theaters because, Griffin, this was my favorite movie that.

[B]

And I feel like the two of us were just like, I think you'll like it. This guy's a little shabby. This is this hobo guy. But I hadn't revisited since. No, it's. It really affected me. It's a weird way to kind of kick a day off.

[A]

It is, sure.

[B]

And we haven't been doing much podcasting in the last two or three days.

[A]

So it's like a real crunch. Look. Lynne Ramsey, one of my favorite filmmakers, people saying, is she worthy of having this series? There are other people hooting and hollering on the Reddit saying, like, ready for five weeks of the bleakest in the world?

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've only seen Rat Catcher as, like, one of her other movies also.

[B]

I think you're going to dig pretty unpleasant, but, yeah, I think you're going to. I think you would dig some of the other ones. Yeah.

[A]

I think all of the movies are like this, where they're not punishing and they're not chores to watch. I understand that, like, you might have triggers that make you just incapable of getting any enjoyment of watching a movie out of this? And I would never argue that with people, but, like, I tend to exist at these extreme poles of my favorite movies. Either tend to be, like, incredibly functional, poppy plotty storytelling, entertainment.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Or, like, vaguely plotless mood pieces about the worst things in fucking humanity. And I think I'm really like. My obsession with fucking baby movies is, like. Comes out of what I find fascinating about the mechanics of being able to convey, in the ones that are good to me, a larger emotional idea that can speak to an inner life of a child in a way that is, like, so clearly communicated. Communicated and clean and economic. And on the other side of that, it's like, can you tackle an idea that is so big, it's almost abstract and unspeakable and get that across without those kind of storytelling tools, you know, and construct your story in a different way? Those are, like, my two favorite types of movies. And there are other filmmakers that we've talked about who I feel like do this kind of thing. Like Robert Bresson, who's, like, one of my favorite directors ever. And years ago, I pushed on David the idea of doing it, and David just correctly responded with, like, I want you to imagine doing 15 episodes on Robert Bresson.

[B]

I love Bresson so much. He's the goat, I would say. The other problem with doing Bresson is it's like, that is a man who is so completely devoted to his, like, you know, way of telling stories and making movies if there isn't much variance.

[A]

No, agree.

[B]

If you're going through beyond the stories he's telling. But, like. And what did he do with. So it was like, oh, he did the same shit he always does, you know, like. Which is why he was good. Like.

[A]

But, like, to me, this is the perfect moment to cover Lynn Ramsey. Five is the exact right amount. You know, there's, like, enough of a body of work there across almost 30 years that is meaningful. And if it was six episodes in a row, it would maybe break us. I'm excited to be able to, like, follow up with her when she makes other films.

[C]

Yeah. Check back in the same way. Going to do with jgl.

[B]

Yeah, and we are going to do that.

[A]

They're equally important, and I hope Hayes knows that.

[C]

Yeah, I got to tell him his.

[A]

You got us.

[C]

We got to book more flights.

[A]

You got to issue the bad news. It's like. It's like we're like process servers informing him.

[B]

Just like Post dating something where it's like 2027, like, you know, you're going to be flying to New York.

[A]

It's the whispering in George W. Bush meme. Ear meme.

[B]

Right.

[A]

But it's. Sir, we have just received notice that. That a second Joseph Gordon Levitt film has gone into production.

[B]

So this film, was it the Cannes Film Festival, as we mentioned. And it was the last film shown in competition, which pissed Ramsay off a lot. Although I think that was partly because the movie wasn't done and they were probably punishing her a little bit. But then it won two awards to her total surprise.

[A]

But often that's a little bit of a dumping spot because maybe the picks have already kind of calcified.

[B]

This can is so political with this stuff. That's the weird can year. Pedro Almobar is the jury, the head of the jury. Will Smith was famously on the jury. And the somewhat scurrilous rumor was always that a lot of people, including Pedro, wanted PM, the French movie about like gay politics in the 80s in France to win. And Will Smith resisted that. That may be completely made up. I have no idea. I should take Pedro Altamotivar's name out of my mouth so Wills doesn't slap me.

[A]

True.

[B]

They instead gave it to Reuben Oslin's the Square, which is not a bad movie, but it was kind of like, you know, felt compromising and then feels.

[A]

More absurd when they gave it to him. Again, making a very similar movie.

[B]

I prefer this to that movie, certainly. I prefer this movie, I think, to pretty much anything in competition that year. But there's some good movies like Good Time, the Safy movie is there. You know, the Beguiled. It's okay movie. She of a Sacred Deer is there.

[A]

Is that right that Sophia won director for that?

[B]

Let's find out. Official awards. Yes, she won best director. BPM won the Grand Prix, which is second. Second prize. This one screenplay tied with Sacred Deer and Phoenix. One actor. And then, yeah, it came out and made a couple million bucks. You know, in America. We're gonna do the box office.

[A]

An Amazon Release in April.

[B]

April 6, 2018. And that's on limited screens, obviously, but it opened kind of big on, you know, 44,000 per screen average. Very good.

[A]

Joaquin showing up for The Q&As has the ju.

[B]

You know, the juice.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Number one at the box office, though, is a. A franchise starter. It's a new movie. H. It's a huge hit.

[A]

It's not perfect, is it?

[B]

No, it's a film, a franchise starter. So the start of the franchise.

[A]

I know I was. It's perfect.

[B]

Didn't start in 2018.

[A]

What is it? 2012?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Okay. I'm sorry.

[C]

Yeah, it is closer to either. I think 2013. That's perfect.

[B]

Kind of an era movie. And this is more of a kind of.

[C]

I was on. I was on Workaholics at the time. I remember Adam coming back from filming it, I think in between seasons three and four. That be around. Got the bumper bump, baby.

[A]

Yeah, that Pepinista bumper in Berlin.

[B]

No, this is a film that I feel like that it hit big was not surprising because it had like a really robust, good advertising campaign. Had a really hooky premise. But it did come out of nowhere a little bit.

[A]

It's not Kingsman. It's not the first Equalizer.

[B]

It's a horror movie, but like epic horror. Like big scale horror.

[A]

Epic horror. Big scale. April. Is it based on anything?

[B]

Well, I'll tell you this. It's not. I'll tell you this. That the, the, the. The word that it had opened to $50 million in its first weekend was probably some good news for the director of this film.

[C]

Oh, my gosh. It's a quiet place.

[A]

There we go. That was an incredible clue.

[C]

Thank you.

[B]

Where is some good news, by the way, is that we.

[A]

Where's active development?

[B]

CBS paid 100 billion dol. Cougar answer.

[C]

Hollywood. Hollywood Handbook recently did an episode about how we purchased.

[B]

Okay, okay. Some good news.

[A]

The problem was they greenlit it and then good news stopped happening. There's no material for the show.

[B]

Well, ran dry.

[A]

I'm just picturing John Krasinski sitting in front of a blackboard saying, news is all bad. How do we find good news?

[B]

What do you guys think of a quiet place? It was one of those things where I saw the trailer and I was like, john Krasinski directed a no talking horror horror movie. And then you watch a trailer and you're like, it looks pretty good.

[A]

I'm somewhat loath to give it to the guy, but I do think you kind of got to give it to the guy.

[C]

I thought it was pretty good.

[B]

Yeah, I had a great time seeing in theater. Everyone was quiet because it was quiet.

[C]

I saw it with Ben Rogers and he'll always. He'll always have a funny reason that he hates something when you walk out. And he was like, why is everybody. It's like it's basically post apocalypse. They all look like they stepped out of a fucking J. Crew catalog. The fucking clothes are so nice. Yeah, it's like, oh, I never for a second did it enter my mind, but I was just like, yeah, you're right.

[A]

There's a little bit of man of the woods in the styling of that movie, but I think it's an effective film.

[C]

I thought it was pretty good.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Number two, the box office has to be Rampage is not Rampage. And I'm not sure. That must have come out a little later. There's a film we covered on the podcast though. A new release from. From one of the more famous directors who ever lived. Solid hit, big genre movie. It's made about $100 million in two weeks.

[A]

It's Ready Player One.

[B]

It's Steven Spielberg's Ready Player One.

[A]

I was gonna say next week Rampage comes out and kind of Dwayne has a bit of a meltdown about being beaten by the second week in a quiet place and was like, haha, gotta give it to my friends. Love Kras dog and the Blunt meister, whatever. And then like posted seven things about like, I made this movie because the conversation between an animal and a man is the most important thing that could happen. I remember my dad pointing to a gorilla in a cage.

[B]

Number three at the box office is a new film as well that is a comedy. And I remember at the time thinking this number was underwhelming. Now I look at it and I'm like, this is sensational. It's opening to $20 million. That's awesome. No, okay, no, no, not Tag. I would have told you it was based on a true story. If it was Tag, I would have told you it's based on a true game.

[A]

You would have given me a Britney marathon.

[B]

No, that's a great movie.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Okay. But yes, this is this thing.

[B]

But I remember, I think I saw this at a screening and I was like, oh, that, that was so much fun. Like, that's going to be a big hit. And then it was like in my memory, kind of just an okay hit.

[C]

But the interesting thing about Tag actually is just to take a quick detour, please. People genuinely believe that we stop playing because we grow old. When in fact. And Tag proved this. Yeah, we grow old because we stop playing.

[A]

Yes. And that's actually why the audience needed to know it was a true story. Because if they thought it was just from the pen of some Hollywood fabulist, they go, these are the lies. They sell us to, to, you know, comfort our soul. But come on, let's get real. And you need to know, like, no, no, no. These guys walk the talk and they talk Tag. The tag.

[C]

It's my, it's my favorite, it's my favorite comedy where a major set piece is a pregnant woman faking a miscarriage so her husband will win a game of tag.

[B]

Wow. I have seen tag. I. I went there, I. I played the game. Did not remember that. I remember something with cancer.

[A]

Ed Helms dies. But. But yet he doesn't end.

[C]

He's actually sick.

[B]

Cuz that's why he's like guys, we gotta play tag.

[A]

But that's like a twist that you find out at the end of his urgen.

[B]

The most telegraph twist of all time. I will say I do not think I was bowled over by.

[A]

I feel like it's like 2 hours and 20 minutes long in the last 40 minutes or drama.

[B]

I think I felt that it was that long. It's listed as an hour 40. I remember it being Satan Tango.

[A]

Like it definitely felt like durational.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

I, I like they were all real friends.

[A]

Absolutely. Well, you can tell these are guys who are the same age.

[B]

Oh yeah.

[A]

Have the same vibe.

[C]

I mean John Ham, when Jeremy, my friend, the dink who's wonderful, great guy, good actor by the way, did a good job in tag.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

Which is my favorite comedy I've ever seen. But where one of the biggest pivotal moments is almost 2018 husband is going to get tagged and so she pretends to have lost the pregnancy.

[B]

Who's the woman? Can you tell me? I do not remember.

[A]

All of their wives in that movie are overqualified. Like I want to say Rashida Jones is in it. Leslie Bibb. Annabelle Wallace is the. The journalist who's covering them as a story now.

[B]

You guys are what, playing tag?

[A]

Fisher?

[B]

Yeah, yeah, she's in there. She's on the. She's on.

[A]

The pregnant one is though.

[B]

Leslie Bibbs there?

[A]

I don't know. Yeah, I've. I've told this anecdote before but my, my ex girlfriend and I were on a plane and we were like let's like find a movie we can both watch together. Oh, we should watch tag. We like comedy movies. And we put on tag and we're watching tag in our like parallel back a seat screens. And then like 35 minutes in we both took the headphones off and turned to each other and we're like. I don't know if there's been a single joke in this movie so far. It's acting like a comedy set up the game but I kind of can't identify anything that would be classified as a joke.

[B]

Love You, Jake Johnson, come in the pot anytime.

[C]

I think. I think it is Leslie Bibb. That does it.

[A]

It sounds right.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Number three at the box office. You guys have not guessed the 2018 comedy I'm talking about. Tag is a 201819 comedy.

[C]

Oh, oh, oh, oh.

[A]

It's not Neighbors 2.

[B]

No.

[A]

But you thought it was pretty good.

[B]

I thought it was fun.

[A]

And you were a little surprised it didn't perform better.

[B]

But then. But then I have the memory not performing well. But I'm like, I don't know. 20 million opening, 60 million domestic. It's not bad, right?

[A]

Like, by 2015, the narrative is the comedy movie has died and all.

[B]

They're not doing, like, hangover numbers.

[A]

We're opening to 20 and making 60. And now you were like, all the goodwill in the world got naked. Had gone to like a 17 opening weekend. Okay, wait a second.

[B]

It's a sex comedy. It's a sex comedy, Stars a bunch of guys.

[A]

A bunch of guys.

[B]

Yeah, sure. Guys and gals.

[A]

It's not. It's not that awkward moment.

[B]

No, it's. It's. It's good. I didn't come out of that awkward moment telling you it's pretty good.

[A]

Stars a bunch of gals and girls that we love. Who's the distributor?

[B]

Universal. The fine folks at Universal premiered it at south by. So it's got that class classic sort of south by March premiere into an April release. You know, build up some hype, and.

[A]

People thought it was gonna hit.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You fully see Gary Cole's penis? Does that help?

[A]

Oh, yes. What is this movie? I remember the penis, and now I'm trying to zoom out for the context. You fully see Gary Cole's penis. It's a Universal picture. It's a sex comedy with a bunch of gals and girls that we like. If you name the director, will it give it away for me?

[B]

K. Cannon.

[A]

Oh, yes.

[C]

Blockers.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

Not a bad movie.

[A]

Not a bad movie.

[B]

Totally fun, but.

[A]

Yeah, you're right there.

[C]

Cena years. Yeah, he's trying to block them.

[B]

Oh, yeah, John Cena's got to do some blocking.

[A]

There were years of R rated comedy plays at south by blows the roof off. Word of mouth translates into 40 million opening weekend, $100 million. And that was the first one that was like.

[B]

It did okay.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

And then like good Boys, I think was the next year.

[A]

That one did stupidly well. That one did pretty well because children had never cursed before.

[B]

That's true. Number four at the box office is one of the Most successful films, I mean, I guess ever made.

[A]

Really?

[B]

Kind of.

[A]

It's not Avengers. Infinity War.

[B]

No. But it is a superhero film. I guess it's a. You know, it's maybe not quite at the top.

[A]

Captain Marvel. No. Okay. That did make a billion dollars and.

[B]

This made $1.3 billion, which is a lot of money.

[A]

It's a superhero film.

[B]

It is. It's very good.

[A]

You think it's very good.

[B]

Arguably the best movie Marvel ever made.

[C]

Or Ragnarok.

[A]

No, it's arguably the best movie Marvel ever.

[B]

I might not argue that, but some would.

[A]

Some would.

[B]

But I really like this movie. It's really good.

[A]

It's not Avengers. No, it's not. It's not a Thor. It's not a Guardians? No. It's not a Spider Man.

[C]

Black Panther.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

Oh, sure. Oh, it's still in there. Jesus.

[B]

There you go.

[A]

That's why I wasn't thinking of it, cuz that's a February release.

[B]

Been out for two months. It's made, you know, $670 million dollars.

[A]

Yeah. Quite a big hit.

[B]

Number five. Now what is this? This must be a Tyler Perry or something like it.

[A]

Faith based.

[B]

It's a Tyler Perry film, but not faith based. Okay. One of his more, you know, dark dramas.

[C]

Huh.

[B]

It's not a sexy thriller, you know, like an erotic drama. I don't know.

[A]

No Good Deed isn't Tyler Perry. Right. I just have that title.

[B]

I'm not sure.

[A]

But it's not. Okay. Tyler Perry the Non Irish.

[B]

That's not Tyler Perry. But you know what? This movie shares a star with no Good Deed.

[A]

So it's a Taraji.

[B]

Taraji. P. Henson.

[A]

It's a Taraji. And it's not I can do bad all by Myself. It's him going a little more thrillery.

[B]

Yep. I think it's the wife. She's a wife and she's stalking and killing her ex husband because like they get divorced and then he gets successful after and she'd like supported him the whole time. So she's going to kill him.

[A]

Is it like a one word title with a colon and then a.

[B]

It is just a one word title.

[A]

It's because it's not Temptation Confessions of a Marriage Counselor.

[B]

It is not. No, no. Marriage Counsel. Confessions have.

[A]

Yeah, it's a one word title. It's not like Betrayal, is it?

[B]

No, but you're closer.

[A]

I'm close.

[C]

Is it like a divorce word?

[B]

Like kind of. Yeah, it's kind of a legal word.

[A]

There we go.

[C]

There was. It's Like, I was like, I want to say alimony, but there's no way it's that.

[B]

Yeah, it's just one of those things where they're like, plop. Taraji in a chair. She looks mad. It's called acrimony. People are like, yeah, $50 million to this one.

[A]

When we talk about just like the box office still hasn't gotten back to where it was before the pandemic. Part of that is Tyler Perry doesn't fucking put shit in theaters. Used to have three movies a year that would basically automatically open a 15 or 20 and make 60. Would just do a quick blockers.

[B]

Some number. Number six is a Christian movie called I Can Only Imagine, based on the song by the group Mercy Me. Of course, Dennis Quaid's in that one. Yeah, I'm sure that movie's mega normal. Number seven is the kind of underrated, not bad political drama. Chappaquiddick, about how Ted Kennedy is a.

[A]

No good nick, but it's not very good either.

[B]

It's okay.

[A]

Isn't that one also where, like, Byron Allen bought it for a ton of money out of Tiff?

[B]

I believe it was an entertainment release. Yes.

[A]

And thought it was going to be a big Oscar player.

[B]

I mean, because it's sort of got that sheen to it.

[C]

Jason Carter spent that money on some leashes for some of these comics.

[A]

These comics.

[C]

You know what I mean?

[B]

Because they're right.

[C]

You got that all over the place. They're going crazy on that show.

[A]

It's crazy that David the dog's never been on this show because, you know, we like to say sometimes that Sims is off the leash. Bow wow wow.

[C]

Okay, that's. Yeah, Loan that to Byron.

[B]

Because sometimes I've been. I've been trying to go, guys, Yeah.

[C]

I get this under control.

[A]

Can I say I do sometimes feel like Byron is asking for it, though.

[C]

100% Griffiths.

[A]

I'm like, Byron, you are into this. If you don't want to know, then don't ask. What do you think about airline food? Yeah. You know, you've been so.

[C]

You've been talking a lot about hockey and basketball.

[A]

Byron, you have taken the leash off with your words in that moment. Yeah.

[C]

You might as well be unhitched in the little thingy on the.

[A]

The little thingy might as well be on hitching the little thingy.

[C]

I mean, with that question.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. You're asking for Re.

[B]

Re Chappaquiddick. Jason Clark plays Ted Kennedy.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

Ted Kennedy, a famous cucker of people. He was always having affairs and Such.

[A]

This is actually.

[B]

That's why the film doesn't work.

[A]

Yeah. The public, they couldn't put their finger on it at the time, but it felt wrong.

[B]

Clark plays a Kennedy. He needs to be getting cheated on.

[A]

What are you trying to prove? Not buying it.

[B]

Number eight of the box office is Sherlock Gnomes.

[C]

Of course.

[A]

The sequel to Gnomeo and Julia.

[B]

Right? There you go. Number nine is Pacific Rim Uprising, which is a true, like, straight to memory hole sequel. Number 10 is Isle of Dogs, Wes Anderson's Isle of Dogs, which has expanded this week and is doing okay.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That's the box office.

[A]

That's the box office.

[B]

It's an April box box office. Yeah. And this is a good movie. And the Klem dog was here with us today and we talked about. You were never really here and it was a business.

[A]

We get. We should put a leash on you.

[B]

Can't believe this worked out here.

[A]

I know, because you were gonna come.

[B]

On no matter what. Like, but you're a busy guy. You're in la, you have kids. Like, you don't travel to New York that much. And when you do, you're kind of like, hey, in New York for an evening. I assume that's not gonna work.

[C]

I am here for like 36 hours every time I come. And that is the case again today.

[A]

You get cold as like a wet works comedy writer in like, a crisis situation to rewrite a thing for like six hours. And we've. We've had you on the schedule for a couple things for the last 18 months. And we kept holding off, being like, it'd be great to get it.

[C]

Great.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I kept.

[A]

I.

[C]

It was. There was like twice that I had to come here, but then when I came, it was like, again like this. Where it was, I'm here for a day and a half with which loser was one that.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Another one. I feel like a couple times you.

[C]

Go, and the main man who wasn't there.

[A]

I think that would have actually been beneficial for us. But we can talk about that. I did. Yes. But I also feel like we would show you the schedule and you'd be like, these five. I have an in on this. I have a funny story or experience with this. The second we committed to Ramsey, we were like, iron Lock, no matter what you're doing.

[B]

I love that movie.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It's a great movie.

[B]

It's just really funny.

[C]

Like.

[B]

Yeah, a hammer pedo movie. That's just you, buddy. Written in ink.

[C]

That's me, man. If it's whether it's 127 Hours, Don John or the. Or the Hammer. The big three pedophile vengeance movie. You know that the Clem dog is already super ego.

[B]

You're really regular actor next time. I mean, those are all different kinds of sort of like oddball actors.

[A]

Yeah, but like, that is a good point.

[B]

It'd be funny if next time we were just like, let me just do like a George Clooney movie.

[A]

Yanks.

[B]

Well, the American. American, your favorite. Yeah, I love the American for our Anton Corbin. Yeah. Miniseries.

[A]

I love Control.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You were talking a little greasy about.

[B]

It, and I haven't seen it since 2007 or whatever.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Whenever it came out.

[C]

So good.

[A]

Yeah. Control is awesome. You should watch Control. Klem Dog. Anything specific you want to plug other than obviously start getting excited for the dink now.

[C]

Yeah. Get ready. Get ready for the dink.

[A]

Please do.

[C]

Watch that movie when it comes out. Listen to Hollywood handbook. We've got Patreon 2, the flagrant ones too. Season 3 of Severance, you know, come out sometime in. In this decade and probably, probably, probably it's gonna be here. And so I've been working on that. I'm very excited to bring it up some. Yeah. Cooking up some freaky stuff. I can't give away two too much. But I watch the show and I go, no, severance.

[B]

It's. It doesn't exist. And that was a joke the whole.

[C]

Time, and we were making fun of.

[A]

You and I. I see a lot.

[B]

Of pieces and the numbers are just math. You add them together to make other numbers.

[C]

They equal your birthday. It's a joke on you.

[A]

I see a lot of think pieces that are alike. We analyze the mysteries of severance. Right. And people are going down the rabbit holes trying to solve it. And I only got one question when I'm watching Severance, which is, what are these writers smoking and where can I get some? But, Sean, what do you guys smoke in the writer's room? And could you give me the contact information of the person you get it from?

[C]

Yeah. So I will. I will get in touch with you. But we smoke dried banana peels.

[A]

There we go.

[C]

That we read in high school on the Internet could get you as high as weed. And so we put them in the oven and then we rolled them up and smoked them. And it just kind of made you feel, like, pretty gross.

[A]

Isn't it crazy to think that when you're 15, you can buy into something like that, even though you're like, oh, I have bananas right?

[C]

You're like, it's so hard to get weed.

[A]

If this gets you higher than weed, then everyone would be smoking banana peels all the time. They're legal. Yeah.

[C]

You had to dry them out in the oven first. Was like what was what the article told us.

[B]

I remember my friends, we found out.

[C]

About morning glory seeds, that you could.

[B]

Take them and they would like make you feel high.

[C]

See on the moon, brother.

[B]

The thing that, you know, no one said in what, whatever book or early Internet site they read it on is that if you buy seeds, they come coated in like pesticides and fertilizers and stuff. They are flowers. We got all so sick.

[A]

Yeah, just puking, just, just puking.

[B]

And at first we're like, maybe it's working.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh yeah, this is good cuz I can't stop throwing up.

[C]

That's a weird thing about ill those experiments where you go like, well I'm supposed to feel weird so like maybe feeling horrible is actually good.

[B]

Yeah, this is the whole thing. I like this actually.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Every so often on Reddit, cooking someone's like, I poisoned my whole family cuz I didn't cook the beans for very long cuz like if you get dried beans, you have to cook them. You have to like soak them and then cook them for like some amount of time and was like, yeah, don't you know, like if you don't soak them then like you'll just get like insane food poisoning and like you could die. It's like, why is that on every can of fucking beans?

[C]

Go ahead and throw a sticker on there for me.

[B]

Jesus.

[C]

Anyway, give me a bean sticker.

[B]

Just happens on once a month. Someone's like, hey, I poison my family.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So that's what you did, I guess, version of that. I'm done. Jesus. We have to record ads.

[A]

Oh, right. Okay. Thank you for being here, Clem dog. If I can just throw in an additional plug. Your co host Hayes Davenport did an episode of the since ended podcast High and Mighty years ago about newspaper comics that I think it's just really good and I revisit a lot.

[C]

Long tail on a lot of people. Still checking that one out. I, you know, won't quit. So yeah, please do go listen to that.

[B]

Yeah, we'll link it in the description.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. If we can just use our platform as much as possible to boost that episode.

[B]

Let's just throw to the episode at the end.

[A]

Can we, can we do a feed drop? Can we maybe look into license?

[C]

I heard they ended high and mighty because he just sort of looked back a couple years and went like, we're not topping this thing.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Thank you for being here, clown dog.

[C]

Thanks for having me.

[A]

Me. Yeah.

[C]

See you.

[A]

Always great to see you. Next week, tune in for Die My Love.

[B]

I believe so. Right?

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I mean, I'm right.

[A]

There's no new release in between. Let's double check that.

[B]

Next week is Die My Love.

[A]

Okay. Lynn Ramsey's newest release. Another very normal, very fun.

[B]

Probably on movie by this point, I would assume. I think almost definitely streaming on movie.

[A]

Yeah. So why not pull that up, give it a watch in time for next week.

[B]

Week's episode over on Patreon. Coming up in a few days, we're doing our annual mailbag episode. That's the plan, I think. Yes.

[A]

I can't wait. I love the smell of an envelope. An open envelope. And we're gonna have it many times over.

[B]

Yeah. If you're interested in that, you can [e-mail] blank check I rather hear the.

[C]

Female bag episode, My Brother. Hey, come on. Hey, I'm married. I ain't dead wrong about that.

[A]

And as always, it's hammer time.

[B]

Blank Check with Griffin and David is hosted by Griffin Newman and David Sims. Our executive producer is me, Ben Hosley. Our creative producer is Marie Barty Salinas.

[A]

And our Associate producer is AJ McKeon.

[B]

This show is mixed and edited by AJ McKeon and Alex Alan Smithee. Research by JJ Birch. Our theme song is by Lane Montgomery in the Great American Novel with additional music by Alex Mitchell, artwork by Joe Bowen, Ollie Moss, and Pat Reynolds. Our production assistant is Minick. Special thanks to David Cho, Jordan Fish, and Nate Patterson for their production help. Head over to blankcheckpod.com for links to.

[A]

All of the real nerdy.

[B]

Join our Patreon Blank Check special features for exclusive franchise commentaries and bonus episodes. Follow us on social at blankcheckpod. Subscribe to our weekly newsletter Checkbook on Substack. This podcast is created and produced by Blank Check Productions.