Episode 299: The Politics of Misery

Summary

Blocked and Reported – Episode 299: The Politics of Misery

Hosts: Katie Herzog & Jesse Singal
Release Date: March 16, 2026

---

Episode Overview

In "The Politics of Misery," hosts Katie Herzog and Jesse Singal dive into the interplay between personal and political depression—especially among young progressives, the influence of social media, and the cultural norm of performative despair. They also dissect the ongoing drama on BlueSky, the rise and fall of its CEO, and the weird intermingling of far-right protest politics and media coverage. The hosts explore how identity and ideology are used selectively in reporting, with several memorable detours into oddities of public discourse, pop culture, and personal anecdotes.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

---

1. Listener Email Follow-Up: The Huda Kattan/Sephora Controversy

[00:09–03:34]

• Cultural Back-and-Forth: Recapping a previous episode about Iranian diaspora protests against Huda Beauty, listeners provided inside info from Sephora: the company “asked stores to remove the Huda window banner, remove her products… and cancel any Huda events, citing safety as the reason” ([01:14]).
• Leadership Insight: Sephora CEO Artemis Patrick is herself Iranian, and her father worked for the Shah, adding intrigue to the company’s decision ([02:15]).
• Funbanter: Discussion of correct pronunciation—“You should pronounce it, like, 10 different ways, and then you can cut out all the wrong ones.” – Katie ([01:32]).
• Iranian History Pedantry: They debate Mosaddegh’s democratic legitimacy and their own previous mistakes: “I let you make it because I didn’t want to woman-splain you” – Katie ([02:54]).

---

2. Virtue Signaling and Performative Depression Among Progressives

[06:58–26:29]

• Setting the Stage: Jesse brings up a trend analyzed by Matt Yglesias—why are young liberals, especially women, so depressed, seemingly above and beyond social media explanations?
• Hierarchy of Misery: “In terms of the most depressed: liberal young women, then liberal young men, then conservative young women, and conservative young men.” – Katie ([09:30])
• Performative Sadness: Hosts explore the suggestion that “many [progressives] now valorize depressive affect as a sign of political commitment.” – Quoting Yglesias ([10:05]).
• Social Media Pressures: "People seem to feel like they have to apologize for living their lives while there's a war going on..." – Katie ([10:35])
• Emotional Contagion: “If you perform certain emotions long enough, that just becomes your emotions." – Jesse ([11:46])
• The Pinker Effect: Katie recalls her prior optimism (“pinkerite") about humanity’s material progress but feels more pessimistic now, possibly due to hyper-exposure to bad news ([12:01]).
• Environmental Grief: Personal anecdotes about witnessing environmental degradation, such as Cape Cod beach erosion and Asheville’s disasters, as a source of existential sadness ([13:36]).
• Importance of Perspective: “I feel like the luckiest person in the world... Not acknowledging that and wallowing in how shitty the world is... that’s sort of ungrateful, narcissistic.” – Katie ([20:56])

---

3. Depression, Treatment, and Public Discourse

[16:07–26:29]

• Public Figures and Personal Misery: Use of public posts by progressive figures (Aaron Regunberg, Kate Wagner) to illustrate public and political despair ([16:21]).
• Therapeutic Interventions: Jesse discusses transcranial magnetic stimulation, ECT, and their stigmas, referencing his mother's experience ([17:43], [18:38]).
• Debate over Political Pessimism: Jesse argues against the “normatively... shitty things going on in the world, so you yourself should feel shitty” stance, recalling resilience in history and pop culture ([22:01]).
• Climate Doomerism: Critique of apocalyptic climate messaging: “I think absolutely, young people... believe we have reached some tipping point when it comes to climate change...” – Katie ([23:33]).
• Long View of Humanity: Stoic humor as Katie muses, “At some point, humans will probably go extinct... something else will come along, right?” ([25:06]).
• Existential Perspective: Jesse: “Man’s Search for Meaning is like one obvious example” ([21:27]).

---

4. Schrodinger’s Identity: Media Hypocrisy in Reporting

[27:21–39:07]

• The Jake Lang/Gracie Mansion Bomb Story: Coverage of a protest led by far-right influencer Jake Lang, recently pardoned by Trump, which escalated when counter-protesters (with alleged ISIS sympathies) threw a failed bomb ([29:26], [35:33]).
• Schrodinger’s Identity: Jesse’s frustration with selective reporting: “Sometimes people's identity or ideology is super important and is the headline finding... other times it's omitted entirely” ([36:04]).
• Memorable Quote: “They were crossing into New York City. It was warm out. What should we do? Museum of Natural History or terror attack at Gracie Mansion?” – Jesse, mocking CNN’s anodyne framing ([38:13]).
• Public Officials’ Evasions: Analysis of how New York leaders vaguely condemned violence without specifying perpetrator identity, fueling suspicion about “selective outrage” ([36:04], [37:07]).
• On Having Children in a ‘Hellish’ World: “I think if people want children, that biological urge… overpowers… which is why you see people having children in war zones.” – Katie ([39:54]).

---

5. BlueSky Meltdown & Platform Culture

[41:58–52:29]

• BlueSky's C-Suite Shakeup: CEO Jay Graber steps down for a new “Chief Innovation Officer” (Toni Schneider steps in as interim). Jesse ponders the platform’s future and niche appeal ([42:19]).
• Platform Size vs. Influence: Data discussion—BlueSky has millions of accounts but a tiny active user base (~1 million daily likers, ~600K posters); Jesse claims it “punches above its weight” due to media/academic concentration ([45:24]).
• Insular Discourse Dynamics: “It just is a uniquely closed ecosystem… I think BlueSky has a higher proportion of crazy than any other left-of-center platform I’ve seen” – Jesse ([49:50]).
• Echo Chambers: Katie dismisses BlueSky’s broader relevance: “It doesn’t fucking matter” ([52:24]), pointing out that its reach is limited by insularity, compared to the overpowering conservative shift on X/Twitter.
• Norms of Blocking: “If you follow Matt Yglesias, you will find thousands of people you've never interacted with have blocked you, let alone if you follow me...” – Jesse ([51:08]).

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On performative misery:
  “Being depressed is sort of a way of... virtue signaling being depressed about the state of the world, which I think is undeniably true.” — Katie ([10:35])

• On coping with macro suffering:
  “People are often able to transcend that. And I also just think it makes it harder for folks in some progressive communities... to understand the world and its challenges with clear eyes.” — Jesse ([21:58])

• On existentialism and ecological grief:
  “The world is objectively better than it was... and yet when I turn on the news or open my phone... I don’t feel optimistic about the future in a way that I did even a few years ago...” — Katie ([12:01])

• On platforms and echo chambers:
  “BlueSky has an actual radicalizing effect on people. I can’t prove that... Maybe the people who go there come pre-radicalized...” — Jesse ([49:50])

• On selective reporting:
  “I think this is a fair point: like, why would you mention one or not the other? And this is... does rile people up further and give them reason to question your leadership.” — Jesse ([37:31])

---

Important Timestamps

• [01:14] Sephora’s response to Huda protests revealed by employee email.
• [06:58] Launch into episode’s main themes: BlueSky blowup, depression, and race.
• [09:30] Statistical hierarchy of depression by ideology and gender.
• [10:35] Discussion about performative sadness and social media virtue signaling.
• [16:21] Matt Yglesias’s tweet about depression and political affect.
• [18:38] Jesse details his mother’s experience with ECT.
• [20:56] Katie on feeling lucky and critiquing ungrateful despair.
• [36:04] Schrodinger’s identity in news coverage—a selective approach.
• [45:24] BlueSky daily user numbers and influence dissected.
• [49:50] Critique of BlueSky as a “uniquely closed ecosystem.”

---

Episode Tone & Style

• Conversational & Irreverent: Plenty of banter, in-jokes, and self-effacing humor.
• Deeply Skeptical: Pokes holes in progressive orthodoxy and social media hysteria, while acknowledging their own position as left-leaning journalists.
• Personal Touches: Both hosts use personal anecdotes, sometimes darkly comic, to ground abstract topics.

---

Further Listening

• Patreon/primo episode teased: full BlueSky/Jemele Bouie saga to come ([52:53]).
• Past episodes on the Iranian diaspora, climate doomerism, and social media culture referenced.

---

For feedback, hate mail, death threats, and more:
[e-mail]

Support and extra content:
www.blockedandreported.org

---

End of summary.

Transcript

[A]

Okay, Jesse, can we start with an email from a listener?

[B]

Yeah, I would love to.

[A]

Okay, so on our last primo episode, as I'm sure. Actually, let's do a quiz. Jesse, what was our last primo episode about?

[B]

Oh, me. Oh, God. If I. Okay, wait, let me just guess. Based on context clues. Trans, Barista, Furry, Coffee shop, anarchist.

[A]

Iran. It was about Iran.

[B]

Oh. It was about, like, the diaspora and how you and I are in favor of the CIA instituting a new monarchy.

[A]

Yes, something like that. It was about our personal. Our personal preferences for what happens in

[B]

Iraq for the future. Which is.

[A]

Which is important because they're asking us.

[B]

What's also crazy is at the end of that episode, you said, this is direct quote, I hope they close that fucking canal. And then that happened, and now we're. So. I blame you. But anyway, yeah, listen to your email.

[A]

Okay, so the show is actually about a beauty influencer named Huda. Huda Katan. And her line. Her line of beauty products is sold exclusively at Sephora. Have you been.

[B]

You think this pays the bill? I'm. I'm one of the people who sprays perfume in your face when you walk into a Sephora.

[A]

So I mentioned on the show that some members of the Iranian diaspora had been protesting Huda's line. Huda's line at Sephora. Do you see how I'm pronouncing her name twice just in case? Hopefully one of those ways is correct.

[B]

You should pronounce it, like, 10 different ways, and then you can cut out all the wrong ones. Huda. Hida. Huda. Huda.

[A]

So there's a protest. People are leaving flyers in Sephora. They want her products no longer carried by this company because she is, they would say, no friend to the Iranian people. And I mentioned that shortly after this protest started, Sephora removed Huda's photo from their windows. And I said, we don't know if this was just a regular rotation or if this was a response to the protest. Well, Jesse, now we know. So we got an email from a Sephora employee. She said this. On January 31, Sephora asked stores to remove the Huda window banner, remove her products, and from. From front of the store, and cancel any Huda events. So citing safety as the reason. Also, did you know our CEO, Artemis Patrick, is Iranian and her dad worked for the Shah.

[B]

Artemis, yes. That's a funny name. Good name. Classic strong name. Yeah, that's my main thing.

[A]

Her dad worked for the Shah. So she is presumably no fan of Hudas, at least at this point. And Our listener continued also. I'm sure you're hearing from others on this, but Musagada. Did I do that right?

[B]

Mosaddegh. I thought it was Mosaddegh.

[A]

It sounds Jewish, doesn't it?

[B]

I mean we're such Persians, Jews, Arabs, we're really all alike.

[A]

Wasn't democratically elected in a way that we would think of it. He was appointed by the Shah and the parliament voted.

[B]

Yeah, this was your.

[A]

This was your. Your error. And I let you make it because I didn't want to woman splain you. I didn't want to like embarrass you in front of the listeners.

[B]

Oh, you knew. You knew the background on Mosadda and you just let me. You let me.

[A]

Yeah, he's a Jewish uncle.

[B]

Yeah, I, I was like. That doesn't sound exact. Yeah, my bad. Because I had also been like. I think I mentioned like I took one course in college and knew a little bit about this, which at some point I did. Not anymore. Although I still. I know the years things happened that this person adds Fifth Column members only.

[A]

I wasn't going to include that.

[B]

Seven covers as well. Not to. Not to direct people to our competitor. Do you. Who do you think does better foreign policy analysis? Us or the Fifth Column?

[A]

Look, they're libertarians. All of their analysis is going to be the same.

[B]

I also. Can I confront you about one other thing before we start?

[A]

No, I'd rather you not. I'm feeling fragile. Today I saw an ant.

[B]

I. I posted something to my substack. Single minded. Single minded. Single minded. You can't cut that because I keep saying it. Single minded. About AI. It was just. It was an AI. And Freddy DeBoer both emailed me about it accusing me of capture. I don't know who. Presumably the Iranian regime.

[A]

You're captured by Claude.

[B]

By Claude. I'm Claude. I am Claude Pill. That's legit. And he did a lengthy quote resub. What do you call it on substack. If someone.

[A]

Quote resub.

[B]

Yeah, quote resub. And I think that this dates back to when. Because you're so racist, he popped into our comments and called you racist. So I blame you for the fact that he's so mad.

[A]

Look, we invited him on the show.

[B]

That's what I don't get about this. Shouldn't that like if, if. If you're mad at someone and they're like, come on. Our internationally renowned super.

[A]

No, no, no, that's not, that's not what happened. Actually, he didn't. Once again, he demanded to come on the show.

[B]

Oh, he said he wanted to come on the show.

[A]

No, he demanded to come on the show. Then we invited him. Yeah.

[B]

No, so it's literally. He's mad. He says, come on the show. We say, sure. He says, I'm tired. Although he does have. He doesn't have a kid.

[A]

He had a chest cold and low

[B]

T. Yes, he said. He said he had low. He didn't say that. I don't want to get sued.

[A]

He didn't say that in the email. He did a post about how he has low T, which. Look, one of us also has low T. So I'm sympathetic. Have you had your hormones? We should. Jesse. We should get our hormones checked and find out. This American Life did this. And one of their best episodes ever, which they did clearly before the awokening. This. Do you remember, remember this episode about testosterone?

[B]

I don't know.

[A]

Oh, it was so good. So they got the whole staff tested for testosterone and no surprise, it's public radio. The women had higher T than, I think all of the men, except for David Rakoff, the gay dancer. Rest in peace, miss Died and there was this awesome. Yeah, he died years ago. He had shoulder cancer. It's very sad. And one of the other great moments of this episode was they. They interviewed a trans man. And this is probably. I'm guessing this came out in like 2007, 2008 maybe. And the trans man said it was like he had been like a dyke. He had gone to like Bryn Mawr, one of the women's schools, you know, had been this real feminist. And he was talking about how once he got on T, he started being completely unable to not check out women.

[B]

Oh, wait, I think I remember this. Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And there's this great line where he says, I also got more interested in math and science. And they joke about. They like have a little laugh about it. I don't think that line would make it into this American Life today or that episode.

[B]

I think you and I should just do like a grab bag of different hormones without knowing what we're taking.

[A]

Oh, look, I am all about hrt. I've already on progesterone. That's the only one my doctor will get me. But I'm trying to get on progesterone first, then estrogen and then testosterone. I will be truly non binary. I'm going to be on every endogenous hormone possible. Just this is all in an effort to see if one of them will help me be able to do one pull up.

[B]

I Would love to be able to do a single pull up or to

[A]

be good at the dream.

[B]

The dream. Okay, I forget how we got to that, but should we proceed to the actual episode? Yeah.

[A]

What are we talking about today?

[B]

We've got a few things on our plate. So we were going to talk about a major blue sky blowup involving a New York Times columnist. We're gonna see if we get to that because there was other blue sky news that supplanted that and I think we should talk about that. I also want to talk a little bit about depression. Katie, I've been meaning to talk to you about depression and race. A subject that has also never come up before. So. So just getting right into it. Katie, is it rational to be depressed?

[A]

I think it depends on your station in life.

[B]

Is it? No, I'm saying, is it rational for me to be depressed?

[A]

You? No. Well, you. Yes, but also no.

[B]

What do you mean?

[A]

Like, I o.

[B]

So

[A]

you have no. Like your life is like fucking amazing.

[B]

Yeah. But before you continue, if you upset me, I will kill myself. Sorry, that's not funny.

[A]

Your life is objectively like top, like probably 1% of all human lives, of all people who have ever existed. Like, you have an amazing job, you get to travel whenever you want. You have friends, you have. You have a good apartment that you pay under market for. That's true, you're kind of a scary driver. But objectively, like, based on what?

[B]

When did you drive? Oh, because we did the.

[A]

We drove from New York to D.C.

[B]

why was I scary?

[A]

And to Boston.

[B]

I think I'm a very good driver.

[A]

It was scary, but it also might have been your shitty car at the time, which I believe you no longer have.

[B]

So rest in peace. The Camry, I think I got $400 for it.

[A]

Another check for happiness. So I think rationally, like, your life is amazing, but the global situationship around the world could lead one to be stressed out and depressed.

[B]

What is our global situation?

[A]

It's complicated.

[B]

You mean like we're fuck buddies with planet Earth?

[A]

You know what? I think we've gone beyond that point and we're toxic exes.

[B]

So the reason I'm bringing this up actually starts in 2023. Matt Iglesias did this provocative post titled why are Young Liberals so Depressed? And he basically talked about these disturbing trends in the data having to do with young people, particularly adolescent girls. So one common explanation is cell phones and social media. But Iglesias pointed out, like this seems to be disproportionately affecting liberal young people. And actually, liberal young men were more depressed than conservative young women. So ideology played a pretty big role.

[A]

Right. So it's. So in terms of the most depressed

[B]

is liberal, liberal young women, then liberal

[A]

men, liberal young men, then conservative young women and conservative young men.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

I, like, I can easily imagine what the, I don't know, like, the progressive take on this would be, which is white, you know, conservative white men, their position of power, they've got it good. They're winning. The Whatever. Whatever war is toxic masculinity.

[B]

Right. Well, well, so read what Matt said at the time. This was 23.

[A]

I think the discussion around gender and the role of social media is an important one. But I also don't believe that liberal boys are experiencing more depression than conservative girls because they are disproportionately hung up on Instagram adduced body image issues. I think there's also something specific to politics going on. Some of it might be selection effect, with progressive politics becoming a more congenial home for people who are miserable. But I also think some of it is poor behavior by adult progressives, many of whom now valorize depressive affect as a sign of political commitment.

[B]

So sum up what he's saying there. What do you think he means by that?

[A]

That it's like there'. Being depressed is sort of a way of, like virtue signaling being depressed about the state of the world, which I think is undeniably true. You see this, like, I see this on Instagram all the fucking time, where people seem to feel like they have to apologize for living their lives while there's a war going on or a genocide going on, or abortion is now illegal in Georgia or whatever it is. Yeah, I see this. I see this with influencers. I see this in people I know. In real life, there does seem to be this. Like, if you're engaged, if you're aware, how could you be taking your dog to the beach and going for brunch and enjoying your life when children in Gaza are starving to death?

[B]

Yeah. And it sort of. It reminded me of. I'll never forget this video I saw about how after Kim Jong Il died, people just sort of took to the streets to theatrically cry and basically rend their garments. That's obviously a more extreme example. But I just. It seems obvious that our emotional reactions to stuff are mediated by cultural expectations, and we sort of act the way we're supposed to act. And I think if you perform certain emotions long enough, that that just becomes your emotions. No performance required.

[A]

Right. And also, I think if you Were. I mean, if you're continually exposed to terrible news, like, I used to be much more of a pinkerite when it came to sort of the long arc of human history.

[B]

Steven Pinker the world is getting better, basically, right?

[A]

The world is getting better. I don't really feel that way anymore. And that might be because I'm just exposed to so much more bad news. Maybe it's because the world actually is getting worse, or maybe it's just we're exposed to more of the shitty stuff. That's probably, that's probably true. A huge element of it. And look, I know this isn't really rational. Like, if you look at the data, the world is objectively better than it was a hundred or two hundred or a thousand years ago by so many measures. Global life expectancy is up, extreme poverty is down, literacy rates are up. And even despite what's currently going on in the Middle east, the world is way less violent than it used to be on both a macro and micro scale. Food is better, TV is better, my Subaru has heated seats. I, I can get legally married to a woman now. Couldn't do that in 1926. So I know all that. And yet when I turn on the news or open my phone and I see a flood of images of really awful happening at this moment, not to me. To be clear. Here's my privilege disclaimer. I'm fine. I don't feel optimistic about the future in a way that I did even a few years ago. And I think a big part of that for me has to do with the environment. And I'm not just talking about climate change, which I am concerned about, but they're all tied in. But like, I don't know. This is something I talked about with a friend yesterday who's from the East Coast. Like, when I go to. When I go back to the east coast and we go to the beach, which I've done, I like do every couple years, tell me if this is true. At Cape Cod, the beach is a lot smaller than it used to be when I was a kid.

[B]

You mean from erosion?

[A]

Erosion. Like they're like the beach that I grew up going to as a kid doesn't exist anymore. Literally does not exist anymore at all. And so things like that give me a sort of grief that I think is kind of existential. And I don't know, like, if you're conservative and you're not sort of constantly subjecting yourself to news about dire end of the world predictions or climate change or environmental catastrophe, maybe you can live in a little bit. Maybe you can just be a little bit happier if you're not thinking about this stuff. Not that conservatives don't think about ecology. I think they do, but you know what I mean. Like this. Does the environment seem worse than it did when you were a kid?

[B]

I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I obviously know there's beach erosion. There's actually a really good Modest mouse song from 1996 about, literally, beach erosion. But beachside property, it's very good. Yeah, the beach stuff hasn't gotten to me. I don't know. My sense is, like, more. My intuition is, like, climate change is still pretty bad, but we've actually made progress on things like solar, which I was going to get to because. Well, just to bring us back to why I'm bringing this up.

[A]

Wait, can I say one more thing before we move on?

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. Go for it.

[A]

I want to. I just want to acknowledge that, like, a lot of things environmentally are much better than they were when we were kids. Like, clean air, like, environmental stains, ozone.

[B]

Remember the ozone hole was a thing and we fixed it.

[A]

Yeah, that was a thing. We had to stop using hairspray and CFCs. But, like, there was a problem and then they solved it, which doesn't seem possible. That sort of thing doesn't happen anymore. But, like, I do know objectively that, like, the rivers that I used to kayak on as a kid are much cleaner now because the paper plant went out of business. I do recognize that stuff.

[B]

Why doesn't. Why doesn't that over overshadow your. I get why you're sad about the beaches, but, like, it's not because it's

[A]

not just the beaches. It's really not. But also, like, you know, like, I live half the year in Asheville, a place where they just underwent, like, one of the biggest natural disasters of the past century. So it's hard not to see that and get. And feel a lot of, you know, grief over the fact that, like, a place that used to be great is shitty now.

[B]

Yeah, I'm with you. I think I have mixed feelings on the environment stuff, and I definitely. You were an environmental journalist. You think about it more than I do. But the reason I bring this up is because the other day, Matt Iglesias, returning to this theme, posted the following. Please read.

[A]

These are two. So he's got two screenshots here of. Of tweets, and he says there are two significant. These are two significant political takesters who both seem to be suffering from depression, which is a serious issue, and I hope they get help and then kind of mistaking that depression for a political analysis.

[B]

So I'll read the two posts in question. One is from Aaron Reaganburg. I'm just so fucking sad and angry every second that my brain is turned on. And I both. One, believe that's a correct insane response to the world right now. But two, I'm not really sure how to cope with it. The other is cbt, buddy. Cbt. Exactly. The other is. Oh, we'll get there. The other is someone named Kate Wagner at McMansion Hell. I can't justify having children in a world.

[A]

Wait, do you know that account?

[B]

Wait, she's come up before on here?

[A]

I don't know that she has, but McMansion hell is like a. She's like a. Basically like a McMansion critic.

[B]

Okay. I feel like she's come up, but I can't remember anything anymore. I can't justify having children in a world hell bent on killing them in every way possible, whether through climate change, poverty, and the dismantling of public health at home or bombs falling from the sky abroad. I don't disparage those who have chosen otherwise, but the choice has been made for me. I. I did not consent to it. Now, the important context here, I think it's a little bit something for Matt to, like, point to two individual people and be like, I think they're depressed. On the other hand, he did reply to his own tweet by saying, I say this not just a dunk. It's bad to go through life like this. Most practitioners prefer medication as the first treatment, but I personally was helped a lot by transcranial magnetic stimulation and think more people should consider it.

[A]

So is that. Is that like electroshock therapy, like the updated version?

[B]

No, because you don't get shocked. It literally just sends.

[A]

You get magnetized.

[B]

You get magnetized. It turned. They turn your whole brain into metal and then they dangle you from a height. And that puts things in perspective for you? No, My sense is I don't think you even feel anything. But it's definitely not like electroshock. Although for severely depressed people, electroshock actually works. But yeah. Someone then asked him, did the stimulation help long term, or did you need to keep doing it every so often to get that effect? Iglesia says couple months of treatment and then years ago and he hasn't been back. So I had. I had actually independently heard there's some promising reasons. Research on tms anyway, can I.

[A]

Wait, can I ask you something personal and you can not answer it or we can cut this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So you've been open about your mom. Your mom before she died for like years before she died, was very severely depressed. Did she do. Did she ever do electroshock or something like this? Do you do those sort of treatments?

[B]

Yeah, she. I mean, I guess if my whole thing is like, we shouldn't. As much as we dunk on sort of don't stigmatize discourse in some context. This stuff is still stigmatized. But yes, she got some ect, which we think helped for a span, but also introduced like all sorts of memory issues, but it did not provide her with like, lasting relief. Oh, it like sort of. It's. It's this weird thing where in part because of One Flew Over a Cuckoo's Nest, it's like. And what. Who is the Kennedy who got it?

[A]

Oh, Rose was it.

[B]

Rose, was there also a Kennedy who got.

[A]

There was one who got lobotomized.

[B]

Yeah, those. Those Kennedys.

[A]

Are you watching the new Kennedy show?

[B]

No, I don't watch any tv. I'm too high brow for that.

[A]

It was the Kennedy who got it was Rosemary. Sister Rosemary. Wait, no, she got a lobotomy. I don't know.

[B]

She's a lobotomy. Yeah. Did it. Am I confused? Oh. Anyway, for various reasons, my sense is that ECG does work for some people and it's not like it looks in the movies, but I do think it, like, I don't know, in my mom's case, I think it gave memory problems. So, yes, unpleasant. But I was sort of struck by the fact that after Iglesias did this post, whatever you think about it, there was this weird, somewhat performative seeming doubling down that I think kind of proved his point. So please read this quote retweet from Reaganburg, who's one of the two takesters he highlighted.

[A]

He said, I know there are people who can watch their own country do things like bomb elementary schools and run concentration camps and not feel emotionally devastated. And that's fine for them. But I don't think those of us who find these evil evils intolerable are

[B]

the deviant ones conflate. I think this is important and I think he's conflating two very different things, which is, I find this thing intolerable morally. Therefore, I think it's fine that I feel like. And I feel sad and angry every single day. I think you can have one, you don't need to have the other, right?

[A]

Oh, yeah. For that's I. I think that's my default state. I, like, I am aware of what's happening in the world. I think a lot of what's happening in the world is truly horrific, particularly in the Middle east right now as we speak. Like, I just opened up my, you know, New York Times, you're mad.

[B]

You're mad that Iran forced us to attack, right?

[A]

I just opened up my New York Times app and saw that 700,000 Lebanese people are fleeing from their homes. I think this is horrific. I also feel continually grateful that that's not my life. I feel like the luckiest person in the world. And I think that not acknowledging that and wallowing and how shitty the world is is. It just feels like that's sort of an ungrateful, narcissistic. The right way, maybe that's the word. Like people really are suffering, but I'm not one of them.

[B]

Yeah, well, and not just that, but like trying to not be. Even. Even imagine you were one of the ones suffering. Like trying to not be miserable and trying to find meaning despite your circumstances is like a pretty long standing and proud human tradition. Man's search for meaning is like one obvious example. I have a much more low brow one that always stuck with me. There's this song.

[A]

This is gonna be best fucking pop punk band, isn't it?

[B]

Yeah, it is. You really? You guessed that?

[A]

Yeah. Jesse, we've been doing this for six years.

[B]

There's a song and you're gonna feel like a jerk after I explain it. There's a band called say Anything and the lead singer's grandparents were in the Holocaust. So you're. Fuck me. The song is called Alive with the Glory of Love and it's this really weird sort of upbeat but sad song and it's difficult to listen to, but it's like about this couple that fought Jewish couple that falls in love during the Holocaust in Europe. And it's like a tough listen. I highly recommend it. And I'm just like, I just don't want to abandon. I don't. That's what I don't like about this normatively, this idea that there's shitty things going on in the world so you yourself should feel shitty. That's often not how it works. People are often able to transcend that. And I also just think it makes it harder for folks in some progressive communities who are sort of where this is normalized to understand the world and its challenges with clear eyes. Because, like a lot of stuff going on at least might be fixable. I mean, Climate stuff's a great example, right? Like, nothing drives more anxiety and more doomerism than climate stuff, where the orthodox progressive stance is like, we're already totally fucked unless we, like, dismantle capitalism tomorrow. But. But there's also been upsides. Like, solar panels are way cheaper than we thought they'd be. They're everywhere. Fucking Texas is leading in wind. It's always a little bit more complicated than everything being great or horrible, but either way, I think I'm Team Iglesias. Even if he pointed this out in sort of a rude way.

[A]

Yeah, well, and the climate doomerism, I think, has been extremely counterproductive because these completely wrong predictions, I mean, did they.

[B]

Would anyone actually think that.

[A]

Yeah, this is definitely rhetoric that some people believe. So, like in, in 2018, Greta Thunberg, not a scientist herself, but prominent activist, she tweeted, a top climate scientist is warning that climate change will wipe out humanity unless we stop using fossil fuels over the next five years. Now, apparently that top climate scientist she was referring to never said that. So this was like a, A like game of telephone through many different levels. But I, I think absolutely, people believe, young people in particular believe that we have reached some tipping point when it comes to climate change and that, yeah, why have kids? You're going to bring kids into a up planet with floods and fires and disasters. And I honestly, like, I, I kind of, I kind of see that, but I also don't want children. So it's like, for me.

[B]

But it's also like, I, I don't, it's. I don't, I don't like. The reason Pinker's book resonated is because it's sort of, it is like a long path to build a civilization. And even, even areas where, like, things are obviously shitty, like the gigafication of the economy and how even American workers are sometimes treated. Just compare that to any other point in human history and usually the comparison will be good. Not bad.

[A]

If you, if you take the really long view. And I try to take this, like, if I feel myself getting depressed about the planet, I do try to take the really long view because ultimately I think none of this actually really matters.

[B]

Like, go on expand and boil off the oceans?

[A]

Well, no, like, on an individual level, obviously it matters, but like, macro level, at some point, humans will probably go extinct, like every species does at some point. But something else will come along, right? In millions of years, will this planet still exist? I hope so. And maybe we won't be here, but something will be. Life will Go on. You're really taking the long until the sun. Yeah, yeah. Until the sun explodes. And then life will not continue to go on. But hopefully there will.

[B]

No life will then go on elsewhere.

[A]

Yes, hopefully elsewhere. Life will go on somewhere elsewhere until it stops going on. In which case, you know, too bad.

[B]

This has been your daily dose of inspiration, Katie Herzog. Sure, we're all gonna die possibly soon, but at some point some other form of life might exist.

[A]

No wonder my self help book didn't sell.

[B]

Basically think it's bad that there are progressive communities where you like the. You sort of need to think everything's horrible and that therefore you should be depressed. I think that could make people depressed in the long run. So I don't know if that means Iglesia's theory is true, but I think there's something to it.

[A]

I think I. I think so too. I mean, we don't know if these particular people actually do suffer from depression or if they're just virtue signaling or if they're, you know, sad because of what's going on. Like legitimate, legitimate response to terrible news. But the trend is there.

[B]

I just, I think it's hard to justify having children because the world is going to try to kill my children.

[A]

I think from an American, that's a crazy thing to say. Like if you are, if you're an Iranian right now or you're in Gaza or some like Jen and I were,

[B]

the world is trying to kill your children.

[A]

Yeah, we were actually talking about this yesterday. Like, is it, is it ethical to bring children. You and McMansion, me and Jana, is it ethical to bring children into a world that really is hell on earth, is that ethical? But if you're an American and you're like, main thing is critiquing shitty capitalism. McMansions like that don't have enough windows. Yeah, it's a little bit of stolen valor.

[B]

Is it fair to bring a child into a world where their parent is a McMansion influencer or an anti McMansion influencer?

[A]

That's the question.

[B]

Okay, one other. One other little thing. Well, it's not that little. I want to get to the main thing I want to talk about, but. Okay. Can we do one other thing? Katie? Please, please, please.

[A]

I'll allow it.

[B]

Okay, remind me, you're a big physics guy. Remind me. Schrodinger's cat experiment or thought experiment.

[A]

Okay, so this was about, there's you got a cat and you've got a.

[B]

Nailing it so far.

[A]

And you've got a Litter box. And the question is, is the litter box for the cat or is it for the students?

[B]

That is Matt Walsh's version or libs of TikTok's version of Schrodinger's cat. Schrodinger's cat is this. It's this thought experiment. You have a cat in a box.

[A]

Like I said.

[B]

Step one, cut a hole in a box. Step two, put a cat in the box. And it's sort of making this point about probability. But basically, by the time you open the box, there's a 50% chance. Katie, cover your ear. Actually, you won't care about that. No, let's say it's a dog. There's a dog in the box. 50 chance. Poison gas will kill the dog. Kill Moose.

[A]

I have to interrupt you. Guess who was in USA Today Today.

[B]

Oh, Moose. Moose was in USA Today.

[A]

He was not.

[B]

How did we not start with this?

[A]

He's modest. No, USA Today interviewed my dad for. For some article. And they. They had. He was talking about how, like, people love their pets and use US an exam as an example. And the quote was something like, Herzog's daughter and her wife often take Moose to visit. They.

[B]

She.

[A]

The author did not mention that when, like, we visited. When we take him to visit my parents, we drive across the country. Which I think is the remarkable. Anyway, go ahead.

[B]

Anyway, the whole. The point is, until you open the box, the cat sort of exists in this.

[A]

It could exist or it could not.

[B]

Yeah. In the superposition of alive and dead at the same time. And the reason I bring this up is because I've noticed this and it started to drive me crazy with the way people mention or don't mention when there's some sort of conflict or someone kills someone or attacks someone when identity does and doesn't get mentioned. So this. I'm bringing this up because, like, on Saturday, this online far right influencer Jake Lang held a demonstration outside Gracie Mansion in New York. It was called Stop the Islamic Takeover.

[A]

More like Gracie Moslem.

[B]

That was. Okay, you're usually. You're usually pretty funny. It's called Stop.

[A]

More like Gracie Mosque.

[B]

Gracie Mosque. Mamdani did rename it Gracely Muslim Mosque. Saint Muhammad, he called it Stop the Islamic Takeover of New York City. It's unavoidable to tell the story without explaining a bit who Jake Lang is. You don't know who Jake Lang is, Right?

[A]

I don't know.

[B]

Okay. He was a January six rioter. He was indicted on, quote, 11 charges, including two counts of assaulting, resisting or Impeding certain officers with a deadly or dangerous weapon. That's from the indictment. This is because he assaulted a police officer with a baseball bat.

[A]

A thin blue line.

[B]

So he was trying to. He was innocently there trying to stop the steal with a baseball bat. And this far left woke.

[A]

Was he just. He must have just like been on his way to softball practice.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

I can't imagine he would have brought his bat to a. To a political rally. That'd be really stupid.

[B]

Yeah, I've been reading a lot of substacks that they just swooped him in. He was in jail for apparently four years awaiting trial, which seems bad even for someone like him. That's a broader issue. But luckily President Trump was elected and pardoned him.

[A]

Oh, great.

[B]

He tried. So he's now a far right influencer running for Senate in Florida. He keeps getting arrested.

[A]

That's the American dream right there. Four years in prison awaiting trial.

[B]

Then you're part of my assault a cop with a baseball bat. Allegedly.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

No defamation. Get pardoned by the President.

[A]

Has a thin blue line bumper sticker on his truck.

[B]

It's so. It's also crazy.

[A]

That's like a. That's a Schrodinger's bumper sticker. Question 50, 50.

[B]

This guy is very good at getting arrested. In February, he was arrested for destroying a prosecute ice. Ice sculpture outside the Minnesota.

[A]

Did he take a hairdryer to it?

[B]

This was outside the Minnesota State Capitol. The New Republic reported, quote, president, he said, president Trump, we support you. We support ice. Our country was made for Americans and not for Somalis. Lang says in a video he posted to social media before awkwardly kicking, not kicking, but awkwardly kicking some of the ice blocks down to spell a new message. Pro ice baby. America first, America only. We'll see you here. February 7th, Saturday, 12 noon, outside the Minnesota State Capitol. He was chased away by counter protesters, according to the New York Times.

[A]

Wait, okay, wait. Maybe this is just bad writing, but the way that you read that, that makes it sound like he kicks the phrase. Pro ice baby. America first. America only. We'll see you here 2-7-12, Saturday noon outside the Minnesota Capitol. That he kicked the one sculpture into.

[B]

It is slightly confusing writing, but that is what he yelled. Pro ice baby. America first, America only. We'll see here February 7th. It's just, I love the mix of sort of far right talking points about Somalis mixed with. You gotta say when you'll next be screaming. Yeah. More seriously. NBC News reported on March 2 that he was arrested after being. And this is this One is completely remarkable. He had spent four years in prison. Again, that shouldn't have happened, but four years in prison awaiting charges on assaulting a cop. NBC News reports March 2. He's arrested after being, quote, seen on camera at a January 6th 5th anniversary event this year telling Metropolitan Police Commander Jason Bagshaw that he should be, quote, put down like a dead dog and, quote, hung in front of the Capitol. Bagshaw was one of the officers who defended the Capitol against the mob Lang was part of. As part of this latest charge, quote, prosecutors say Lang approached Bagshot and pointed at him, quoting Lang as saying, public execution is the only solution for animals like you. And that Bagshot needed to be dragged out by his ankles and thrown in the Potomac. So that's who Donald Trump pardoned.

[A]

I'm going to say something maybe controversial here.

[B]

You think he's hot?

[A]

I don't think he should have been arrested for that.

[B]

For publicly threatening to kill a police officer.

[A]

That's not a threat. If he said. If he said, I'm going to drag you out by your ankles and throw you in the Potomac. He's talking about a hypothetical here.

[B]

Okay, I'm just trying.

[A]

I'm just, Look, I'm just. I'm just standing by my values.

[B]

Your free speech. Free speech, bro.

[A]

An actual threat. Was this, like, something he was going to act on?

[B]

Honestly, now you're going to make me click on this article again and make sure I'm not missing anything.

[A]

He did hit a cop with a baseball bat. So.

[B]

So maybe a few days ago. So he goes to New York to.

[A]

Wait, wait, so what happened? So he was arrested? Did he get out that he.

[B]

No, he's been arrested repeatedly. And he. I guess he just keeps getting out on bail because he then went to New York to do a protest at what you call Gracie Moss Mosction.

[A]

Moscoleum.

[B]

It's like a big, gaudy mosque mocktion. Like his whole thing is going to liberal places being provocative and I think hoping he. There's some sort of confrontation. I'm not saying that to justify the attacks, but I do think this is an influencer business model. Right?

[A]

Yes, absolutely.

[B]

So this was never going to go well in New York, but on Saturday.

[A]

Sorry to interrupt you again. I'm trying to think, like, if I think of, like the. It seems to me maybe I'm getting my history wrong, but we could think of like the original influencers in that particular manner as the Phelps family.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. Because they would protest outside of funerals and stuff, saying, God hates soldiers, funerals Whatever.

[A]

Yeah, God hates fags. Yeah, our friend, our friend Megan was there telling us that God hates.

[B]

Wasn't that their whole thing? Yeah, that they were like trying to get attention in the pre viral outrage era when it was even harder. Yeah.

[A]

I wonder if they were physically attacked.

[B]

Yeah, well, no, I bet, I mean, I bet people were instructed to ignore them, but it would be hard to do if your relative.

[A]

It's. That's right.

[B]

Takes a saint like amount of patience. Anyway, New York Times report.

[A]

I hope they protest my funeral.

[B]

You hope I protest your funeral?

[A]

No, I hope the Phelps family does.

[B]

I mean, you can't. It's like that's the kind of thing where either you get it, you can't ask them to now they're not going to do it. I'll ask Megan about that Saturday, quote, counter protest. This is from New York Times. Counter protesters outnumbered Mr. Lang supporters with taunts and physical objects wildly thrown. And then a man lit and threw the homemade bomb into the street, causing chaos and fear, but no injuries after the device failed to detonate. So this was an actual improvised explosive device that, that was live and that could have killed people if the guy was a little less shitty at bomb making. What a loser. Two men were charged in the attack and both sided isis. Talk about a throwback as their inspiration.

[A]

Wait, so okay, wait. Were they on Lang side? Were these the conservatives or the libs who was inspired by isis?

[B]

No, they're ISIS inspired radical Islamist terrorists.

[A]

So they're the counter protesters to I

[B]

guess trying to prove Lang's point for him.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean he was, he. He's a guy who spreads conspiracy theory. He does spread conspiracy theories about Muslim. And he said, I'm from New York. I promise there's not been an Islamic takeover of New York. But these two little would be terrorists rose to the bait and literally tried to fucking blow up the crowd around him.

[A]

Got it. Okay.

[B]

Yeah. So obviously this whole story is disturbing, but I just want to focus on like a little thing. But not that little thing. This is goes back to the Schrodinger's identity thing. So read this post from Zoran Mamdan, Mayor Mamdani, America's mayor, posted the day after the attack.

[A]

Yesterday, white supremacist Jake Lang organized a protest outside Gracie Mansion. Rooted in bigotry and racism, such hate has no place in New York City is an affront to our city's values and the unity that defines who we are. What followed was even more disturbing. Violence at a protest is never acceptable. The attempt to Use an explosive device and hurt others is not only criminal, it is reprehensible in the antithesis of who we are.

[B]

So what jumps out at you about that?

[A]

Well, he doesn't. He doesn't say who committed the violence at the protest. So if I, if I, I didn't have this conversation with you, I would probably have assumed that the violence was connected to Jake Lang.

[B]

Yeah. And I do think, like, it's fair to point out that he says white supremacist Jake Lang.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Bigotry, racism. He talks about his ideology, but then it's just vague about who did the violence and.

[A]

Right.

[B]

This could be an oversight. I don't think Mamdani's trying to cover it up. He did later appear with Jessica Tisch, NYPD commissioner, you know, in a press conference that spoke frankly about what happened. But I think the problem is we've gotten in this habit of, like, sometimes people's identity or ideology is super important. And is the headline finding, like you remember with Kyle Rittenhouse, white man kills anti racist protesters.

[A]

And one of whom was racist, one

[B]

of whom was race. Right. Literally wandering around calling people the N word. So, like, I find a lot of anti momdani stuff to be a bit on the paranoid side, to be honest. But I think, I think this is a fair point. Like, why would you mention one or not the other? And this is only, I think, does rile people up further and give them reason to question your leadership. There was also this ex post from CNN which did not go well for cnn. Please read this.

[A]

Two Pennsylvania teenagers crossed into New York City Saturday morning for what could have been a normal day, enjoying the city during abnormally warm weather. But in less than an hour, their lives would be drastically changed as the pair would be arrested for throwing homemade bombs during an anti Muslim protest outside Mayor Zoran Mondo. Here's what we know so far that is really bad.

[B]

They were crossing. They were crossing into New York City. It was warm out. What should we do? Museum of Natural History or terror attack at Gracie Mansion? You just until you've experienced the energy of New York City firsthand. When you cross that bridge or come out through the tunnel, you don't know, are you going to do an ied? Are you going to go to Broadway?

[A]

The article itself. Was the article as bad as the tweet?

[B]

I don't think so, but I think, think people rightly, like, if this had been white supremacists coming into New York City to cause trouble, it never would have been. Oh, they just cross into New York City. And I think this is sort of the fault of certain, like, progressive habits or liberal media habits, like, in terms of how we talk about this stuff, which is when we do and don't talk about identity. So I don't know. This just jumped out at me as, like, maybe we should just be consistent one way or another.

[A]

Right.

[B]

All right. That's all I want to say about that. Any further observations? Are you depressed now?

[A]

So tired, y'. All. You know what? I was gonna have kids.

[B]

I'm not having kids because of this. Because of the headline thing.

[A]

I. I do think that there is, like, there are people who feel like they need. Who don't want. Who don't want to have children and feel like for some reason that they need to have a higher calling for Than just not. I don't want to step on Legos. And so they come up with these. These justifications. I think that if people want children, that biological urge, I think it overpowers common sense and rationality, which is why you see people have. Continuing to have children in.

[B]

In war zones, even in literal war zones.

[A]

Yes, people are gonna do it if they want children. It's apparently, from what I hear, it's a very, very powerful instinct, one that I lack. Anyway, we can move on.

[B]

All right, Katie, why don't we pause here and do housekeeping? But I'm gonna make you do it.

[A]

We are a podcast. This is blocked and reported. You can reach out to us with feedback, tips, story tips, hate mail.

[B]

Death threats.

[A]

Yes, death threats. Having gotten any of those lately? You can email us.

[B]

You haven't.

[A]

Have you. Have you gotten many death threats lately? Although I think you're. I think you. I think your definition of a death threat is different than mine. You think. You think of a death wish as a threat?

[B]

No, no, no. I don't conflate the time. If someone's like, I wish you were die. I'm like, that's annoying.

[A]

But you did just on our segment about Jake Lang.

[B]

What did I say? Oh, yeah.

[A]

He said, somebody should string you up. Not, I'm going.

[B]

Okay, well, that wasn't directed at me. But anyway, continue.

[A]

Anyway, if you do want to send death threats, blocked and reported podcasts, gmail.com. we also have a premium program. This is the best way to support the show. For $7 a month, a mere $7 a month, you get at least three extra episodes of this podcast every month. You also get access to our live hangouts. We do these periodically on Substack Live. You and I Just did one this week. It was excellent.

[B]

It was amazing.

[A]

Yes. We did an AMA with our listeners. They asked fantastic questions. We periodically do these with other people as well. And what else people get, Jesse?

[B]

Merch. No merch.

[A]

No merch.

[B]

Why would you bring that up? It's a sore spot. I think mostly what you get is a claim and social capital.

[A]

Yes. You get to sleep soundly knowing that you have supported two small, independent.

[B]

Small beans. We're just small beans. Also, it cures depression.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

We should imagine for $7 a month, all your depression symptoms washed away in a flood of content.

[A]

Put some magnets on your head. That might also help.

[B]

And if you put magnets on your head, I think that's a.

[A]

That's the important stuff.

[B]

Thanks for housekeeping, Katie.

[A]

Okay, what are we talking about next?

[B]

So I had wanted to talk this episode about a really sprawling, colorful, weird Blue sky meltdown involving New York Times columnist Jamelle Bouie. We might have to put that off for another segment because some news got ahead of me on the Blue sky front. Katie, please read this post. This is from Jay Graber, CEO of Blue Sky.

[A]

Some personal news. I'm transitioning from CEO to a new role as Blue Sky's Chief Innovation Officer. I'm excited to welcome ony bluesky team as our interim CEO. More here. And then there is a link to a press release.

[B]

Yeah, so Jay Graeber has been the CEO of Blue Sky, I think, since the beginning. Definitely since it's sort of period of growth. Although we'll get to that question of how much it's actually grown. And like, undeniably, this is a site that's carved out a big place in sort of the liberal imagination. Right. Are you skeptical of that even?

[A]

I think that it's. I think, for a very specific audience. I think that if I went and, like, asked any of my, like, parents, friends.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

About Blue sky, they wouldn't know what the fuck I'm talking about.

[B]

But if you're within a certain age bracket and you're on the left, either you're on Blue sky because you're super online, or you have strong feelings about Blue sky one way or another.

[A]

I don't know. I don't talk to people my own age.

[B]

Yeah, that's true. You only have older friends. So Tony Schneider is this new Tony guy. He's a venture capital bro from Wired's coverage.

[A]

Bells is. That's a guy.

[B]

I know. I thought it was a girl. T O N I. I've never seen a gu.

[A]

It's the Tony Braxton Spelling Schneider.

[B]

Tony.

[A]

Tony.

[B]

Tone Schneider tells Wired that he intends to help Blue sky, quote, become not just the best open social app, but the foundation for a whole new generation of user owned networks. End quote dot to dot he was previously CEO of the WordPress parent company Automatic, annoyingly misspelled from 2006 to 2014. Then he did some other stuff. So I'm like, I'm curious what this means for Blue sky. And I don't know, to be honest. Like, I continue to be fascinated and horrified by it. Do you think that we are too fixated on Blue sky or that I am?

[A]

I'm not. I never think about Blue Sky. You might really?

[B]

Have you ever been on there?

[A]

Yeah, I looked up last week. I looked up what people were saying about Lindy West. But do I just like ever open Blue sky? If not to. To specifically see what Blue sky is like talking about for this show? No. Would not occur to me.

[B]

And you don't have people in your orbit who like check it regularly or who are on there? I have so many normal friends who just maybe not.

[A]

I don't. Your friends might not be normal. I think my friends are normal. They're all 75. But they definitely don't check your old

[B]

friends, your former friends are all on Blue Sky.

[A]

I highly doubt it. I don't think my old friends are online like that.

[B]

So the Wired piece writes, it's a pivotal moment for Blue Sky. The company found success by positioning itself as a progressive replacement for Elon Musk X. That helped fuel the platform's rise as X's hard right ideological turn and prompted some users to seek new social networks. In 2025, Blue sky grew from 25 million users to over 40 million according to its annual transparency report. Blah, blah, blah, blah. The journalist goes on to explain that, like, it's still a little bit niche and has some challenges. I think there's like there's been this thing going on where people will mention that it hits new milestones. So like now it's at 40 million. And that new Tony, that Tony Chicken. One of his first posts after becoming CEO was like noting it had crossed, I think 42 million. But I think people are like really misleading themselves. So just describe these two graphs I pasted here for me.

[A]

Okay, so this is a graph of daily likers. So that's likers. So people who are active users of Blue sky, right?

[B]

Yeah, people who unique. People who at least like one post. The other graph is daily posters. People who post at least once and what do those numbers say?

[A]

Okay, so they're basically identical. And the. Or they're not.

[B]

They're not.

[A]

The trend line. The trend lines.

[B]

The trend lines are identical.

[A]

The numbers are different, but the trend lines are identical.

[B]

That was sexist.

[A]

They basically. They say that there's been a. That there was a like very minimal users and likers through the election or. No, no, through. It's. That's like July 2024.

[B]

There's some little spike there. I don't know. The biggest by far is Trump. Trump is. Oh, that might have been. When did Elon buy Twitter? Or some made some bad decision about Twitter and people fled to blue sky.

[A]

Yeah. So big spike around the inauguration. Another big spike.

[B]

Biggest spike. Sorry. Biggest spike around the election. Then a smaller one around the inauguration.

[A]

Yeah. And then downward trend.

[B]

Yeah. With like a little spike for Minnesota. I. Stuff.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. When some. When Trump does something up, people skeet about it.

[B]

So there's like a little more than a million people who like a post at least once a day. There's a little more than 600,000 people who post anything at least once a day. And that's the thing. It's tiny and they think it punches so far above its weight. Because the people who are on there are disproportionately in media or academia, just people with like strong sort of professional opinions.

[A]

I don't, I mean, so I don't know that it does punch above its way. Blue sky. I mean, obviously we're in very different. Have very different social circles, but I don't hear about blue sky on the news. I don't hear about blue sky in life. The only time I think about it is when you're talking about it or if a blue sky. If like there's content on blue sky that somebody takes a screenshot of and posts on Twitter, which is a classic

[B]

pastime to post stuff on Twitter and be like, look at this shit.

[A]

Right. Like Threads. Threads has over 400 million monthly active users, having overtaken X and the daily mobile app users with approximately. Damn. So Threads is huge. Which. Which makes sense because Threads is. Is connected to Instagram. So if you have an Instagram account you have. You automatically have a Threads account. Yeah, It's a weird place. But so, yeah, I don't know.

[B]

So you don't think it does. But I just feel like there's so much discourse about it. But maybe that's not the same as punch above its web.

[A]

Wait, right. I think there's disco. There's like dunking on it. But I don't think Blue sky has like capital the way that X does.

[B]

Maybe because I spend too much time on it.

[A]

Do you spend a lot of time on Blue Sky?

[B]

No, not engaging. But just like. Well, first of all, you, you.

[A]

I mean, can you see any accounts? I just looked. Looked up. You're.

[B]

Yeah, I have a burner.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Yeah, you're the fifth most blocked person in. But like, who is Good For?

[A]

So it's. It's J.D. vance, White House ICE and then some account called Good for. No. Do you know what that is?

[B]

I have no idea who that is.

[A]

It's probably spam.

[B]

All I'll say is that my Normie friends, Normie ish friends in progressive politics are all on Blue sky. As I know because they sometimes send me crazy. People are saying about me they should stop. I also think that. Say again?

[A]

They should stop.

[B]

Yeah, they should. I also think like, it just is a uniquely closed ecosystem where so like Twitter has Nazis. We all acknowledge that. I think you and I have sufficiently mentioned Twitter. Nazis are bad. We're mad, we don't like them. But if you say something crazy and conspiratorial on Twitter, you will get pushback whatever direction your crazy conspiratorial shit is. On Blue sky, there is, I think, this real hardening of conspiracy theorizing and radical stuff. And it. I just think it has a higher proportion of crazy than any other left of center platform I've seen. Like, I haven't really been on Gab. What's the or like Truth Social. I'm sure those are just as crazy on the right.

[A]

I wonder if Truth Social has a. Like a community notes like fact checking apparatus?

[B]

Guessing no, actually. There are 8 billion Muslims in the U.S. yeah, Somalis like to eat dogs, cats and ferrets. That is so funny, Gab. Fact checking. I just. I don't know. I think that's what's important. Like, I think it. Blue sky has an actual radicalizing effect on people. I can't prove that. Maybe the people who go there come pre radicalized, but I don't know if I hope that this is a sign that it's going to collapse or if it's useful to have all the crazy people in one place riling each other up like at least publicly where we can see it.

[A]

I don't think so. I mean, I think that. I think that X was a much better platform when it had more annoying progressives on it. I think that you do get some pushback on X sometimes, but it has. It's so overwhelmingly conservative now. In part because the algorithm directly rewards people who are willing to pay $7 a month to Elon Musk. So if you have a blue check, unless you're like us and got it for free. Unwanted. Did not pay for it.

[B]

Unwanted.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I did not consent to it.

[A]

He pays us, we don't pay him. Which is actually true. So. So X is. Is built so that it's built to prioritize conservative voices at this point. And because so many of the loudest progressives fled, I think there's way less balance on the site than there used to be. It's just gone the opposite direction.

[B]

I do. There's a number of them that are quietly coming back. I think part of the problem is that, like, the norms of blocking people on Blue sky are so insane where, like, if you follow Matt Iglesias, you will find thousands of people you've never interacted with, have blocked you, let alone if you follow me. And I just think that's a recipe for like a ideological hot house that actually, like. I think Twitter has some built in resistance to that because I agree it's gotten way more right, but there's still a lot of like normal liberals and even lefties there.

[A]

Yeah, I mean, it's clearly an echo

[B]

chamber, I don't think. I will undoubtedly never be able to talk to her about her experience as Blue sky CEO, But Jay Graber has also just been through the ringer because one of the interesting dynamics of Blue sky is like, the more you're considered on the right side of history, the more people judge you and the more people end up hating you. This is sort of the point of the Jamel Bowie story we will eventually tell. But like Graeber caught such an insane amount of shit over everything. A lot of it was simply that. I hate to put myself at the center of it, but there was this giant campaign to ban me. They just didn't want me on there and she refused to for her credit. But if I were in her position, I would not want to be the CEO of this site. I don't know what this new Tony guy is going to do. I think they're going to tear him a lot apart.

[A]

Well, it won't really matter because nobody doesn't really matter. That's my position on Blue Sky. It doesn't fucking matter.

[B]

That's all I got. Katie, any other thoughts on depression, Russian darn momdani, Mamdani's wife, Jake Lang or Jay Graber? Blue Sky?

[A]

No, But I am very excited to hear about what happened to Jamal Bowie on. On Blue Sky.

[B]

I think you just said Jamal. That's a little. Little racist way to end the show, Jamel.

[A]

Okay, Jamal Bowie on Blue Sky. But I guess. What are we gonna. You gonna make me wait on that one?

[B]

I'm gonna make you pay for it.

[A]

Oh, okay.

[B]

It's a primo episode. In the meantime, this has been blocked and reported. As always, we're produced with help from Jessica the 80s. Baby, goodbye.

[A]

Bye.