Premium: The Revolution Will Be Shoplifted

Summary

Blocked and Reported – Premium: "The Revolution Will Be Shoplifted"

Hosts: Katie Herzog & Jesse Singal
Date: April 28, 2026
Theme: A deep dive into the latest conflicts, scandals, and culture-war histrionics inside media, literature, and online discourse, focusing on high-profile clashes, internet drama, and shifting purity spirals among progressives and critics alike.

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Katie and Jesse deliver a whirlwind tour across several major internet and media flashpoints: the “attempted assassination” of Michael Tracey’s reputation and related Substack party drama; debates around J.K. Rowling and linguistic purity spirals on both sides of the gender wars; the contrast between Lena Dunham and Lindy West’s success in celebrity/feminist memoirs; and a spirited preview of a New York Times video-podcast featuring Hasan Piker and Gia Tolentino. The tone is classic Blocked and Reported—irreverent, gossipy, skeptical, and quick with biting humor.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Michael Tracey vs. Jim Acosta: Drama at the Substack Party

[00:59–05:46]

• Context: Michael Tracey was ejected from a Substack party after a confrontation with reporter Julie K. Brown (known for Epstein coverage), escalated by CNN’s Jim Acosta.
• What Happened: Tracey pressed Brown to substantiate claims he was “on Epstein’s payroll.” Brown attempted to disengage; Acosta intervened and Tracey was kicked out.
  • “He approached Julie K. Brown and asked her, you said like, prove it, prove it. That I was on the Epstein payroll…” – Katie [04:38]
• Analysis:
  • Jesse and Katie agree Tracey is notorious for not "reading the room," which, while abrasive, sometimes produces valuable journalism.
    • “He does not read the room.” – Katie [05:15]
    • “And it's important to have some journalists who don't read the room…” – Jesse [05:18]
  • The importance (and cost) of confrontation in journalism is explored, noting Tracey's firsthand reporting in chaotic situations.

Notable Moment:

• Tracey’s Social Media Meltdown: After the incident, Tracey taunted Acosta online, escalating with insults and an open challenge to “meet me in front of the Hampton Inn.” [13:48]
  • “A journalist given the exact address of a Hampton Inn in D.C.… so that another journalist he wishes to fight can find him… is objectively funny, and I agree with that.” – Jesse quoting a tweet [14:27]

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2. Purity Spirals and the Harry Potter "Violence" Discourse

[05:52–12:23]

• Instagram Drama: Katie discusses author KW Bogan's (Katherine Wallobogan) apologies for referencing Harry Potter, which was labeled as “violence” against trans and gender-expansive communities.
  • “If you mention the existence of Harry Potter, that's going to keep J.K. Rowling's words and ideas and books circulating. It's that, not the books themselves.” – Katie [07:17]
• Online Contradictions: Bogan points out nobody reacts similarly to Buffy references given Joss Whedon’s controversies. Jesse and Katie note the selective outrage.
• J.K. Rowling's Latest Drama: Rowling was attacked by gender-critical activists for using a trans woman’s preferred pronouns, prompting her to condemn puritanism on both sides:
  • “No rights campaign can succeed if its adherents are more interested in creating a purity spiral than allowing the smallest space for nuance or the complexities of human nature and feelings.” – Katie quoting Rowling [12:01]

Key Quote:

• “You cannot fight linguistic prescriptions with more linguistic prescription.” – Katie quoting Rowling [12:10]

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3. Rapid-fire: Preferred Pronouns and Etiquette

[12:23–13:48]

• Both hosts explain their approach:
  • Jesse: Uses preferred pronouns out of etiquette; objects to the idea that this is a truth-claim about biological sex.
    • “It's just, I think it's an etiquette thing... I don't think that's really how language works.” – Jesse [13:05]
  • Katie: Will use preferred pronouns publicly (“for the most part, I will engage in this polite social fiction publicly, privately call people whatever the fuck you want”). Dislikes policing from both trans activists and TERFs.

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4. Revisiting the Tracey vs. Acosta Feud

[13:48–14:44]

• The most entertaining part: Tracey’s Twitter challenge to Acosta, giving the full address of a Hampton Inn for a fight.
  • See notable moment above for direct quote and commentary.

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5. Lena Dunham vs. Lindy West: Why One Memoir Sells and the Other Doesn’t

[14:44–27:30]

• Sales Scoop: Dunham’s memoir sells 60,000 copies in its first week—huge numbers—compared to Lindy West’s underwhelming book sales.
• Analysis:
  • Dunham is simply much more famous (3 million Instagram followers vs. West’s 135k).
  • Her memoir is more gossipy and revealing about famous people: “catnip to readers.”
  • Self-awareness: Dunham’s self-effacing media appearances contrasted with West’s defensiveness.
    • “She said, I think people hate me because I'm annoying and I've always been annoying.” – Katie [21:06]
    • Jesse finds this “refreshing.”
  • Both hosts reflect on how millennial feminism’s “unity” unraveled online—especially in the infamous Lena Dunham/Odell Beckham Jr. incident.
    • “Anything I say as false accusations by white women towards black men… This is basically the Emmett Till story all over again. Also, she was not accused. She was accusing him of under sexualization, not being interested in her.” – Jesse [26:21]
• Relatability and Backlash: Dunham faced disproportionate hate for minor “sins”; much is chalked up, by Katie, to jealousy over her unglamorous appearance and unexpected success.

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6. "Girls" and Representation Debates

[15:58–17:59]

• Both hosts liked "Girls" overall but debate whether its lack of diversity reflected reality or laziness.
  • “I don't think there's anything like unrealistic or like artificially white about girls. I think those are just those circles.” – Jesse [17:43]
  • Katie points out such critiques focused on shows with Twitter-focused, left-leaning audiences, not, say, Big Bang Theory.

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7. A Brief Foray into “Sex Scenes We’d Rather Not See”

[22:19–23:18]

• Katie admits she hated watching the sex scenes in "Girls”:
  • “I don't like TV that's gratuitously sexual, especially when it's disgusting.” – Katie [22:56]
  • Jesse: “This is more of a Katie thing. It is craft of the show thing.” [23:07]

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8. Lena Dunham as Millennial Feminist Lightning Rod

[24:03–26:42]

• The Odell Beckham Jr. Met Gala story becomes emblematic of millennial feminism’s inability to build solidarity:
  • “There's no fucking unity among just women... it's all just, you accused a guy of misogyny, but he had the wrong skin color for you to do that.” – Jesse [25:43]
  • Dunham’s apologetic posture, especially invoking “violent history of the over sexualization of black male bodies,” is ironized by both hosts.

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9. Cultural Memory: The Onion and Satire’s Demise

[27:30–28:05]

• Jesse laments that The Onion could once run brutal/gross jokes about Lena Dunham/“Girls,” but is now too “establishment” to risk such humor.
  • “The Onion became so establishment… they just would never, ever, sort of criticize [like that].” – Jesse [27:54]

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10. Set-up: Hasan Piker & Gia Tolentino on NYT’s Video Podcast

[28:05–29:35]

• Katie introduces an NYT “pseudo-roundtable” featuring Piker and Tolentino, described as a reliable source of “rage bait.”
• Before breaking (the preview ends here), the hosts begin to recap past Tolentino controversies, such as her father’s legal troubles related to overseas labor and trafficking.

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Memorable Quotes

• On purity spirals:

  • “No rights campaign can succeed if its adherents are more interested in creating a purity spiral than allowing the smallest space for nuance or the complexities of human nature and feelings.”
    – J.K. Rowling by way of Katie [12:01]

• On Lena Dunham’s approach to her haters:

  • “I think people hate me because I'm annoying and I've always been annoying.”
    – Katie quoting Dunham [21:06]

• On linguistic etiquette and pronouns:

  • “I do... I think it's just, it's just, I think it's an etiquette thing... I don't think that's really how language works.”
    – Jesse [13:05]

• On Millennial feminism’s infighting:

  • “There's no fucking unity among just women... it's all just, you accused a guy of misogyny, but he had the wrong skin color for you to do that.”
    – Jesse [25:43]

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Timestamps – Key Segments

• 00:59–05:46: Michael Tracey’s party ejection and the value/drawback of journalistic confrontation
• 06:27–08:23: Literary purity policing: Harry Potter as “violence”
• 10:24–13:05: Rowling and pronoun wars: Both sides trap themselves in linguistic rules
• 13:48–14:44: Michael Tracey challenges Jim Acosta to a fight (“meet me at the Hampton Inn”)
• 15:12–27:30: Lena vs. Lindy, memoir sales, celebrity culture, and the failure of solidarity in millennial feminism
• 28:05–29:35: Intro to Hasan Piker & Gia Tolentino NYT podcast feature

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Tone & Style

The episode is informal, brash, self-aware, and metacritical—constantly poking holes in both right and left internet dogmas. Both hosts traffic in gallows humor and self-deprecation, pivoting rapidly between serious commentary and comic non sequiturs. Their language is conversational, earthy, and irreverent (with plenty of swearing and frankness about personal opinions).

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For Premium Listeners

The episode cuts off just as the hosts prepare to fully dissect the New York Times conversation between Hasan Piker and Gia Tolentino, promising more hot takes, gossip, and media criticism behind the subscriber paywall.

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Transcript

[Jesse]

Hello, you're listening to a preview of a premium episode of Blocked Unreported. Today we're talking about Lena Dunham. We're talking about Gia Tolentino and Hasan Piker. There's a lot going on. Oh, we're also talking about Michael Tracy and his showdown with Jim Acosta at the Hampton Inn Corral. Is that it, Katie? What else are we talking about?

[Katie]

We got some JK rolling in there.

[Jesse]

Oh, there's some JK Rowling. Yep.

[Katie]

Some she who shall not be named.

[Jesse]

Yes. So if you want to hear the whole thing, go to blocktrainporter.org and become a premium subscriber. Either way, you enjoy the preview.

[Katie]

Okay. Jesse, we're recording this on a rare Sunday afternoon. Usually it's Sunday. You're at church and I'm at the mosque. But we decided to record today. We've got a lot of content coming this week, so we're working on the weekends. And, you know, so we're recording this right after this major event, this major drama in Washington, D.C. just happened yesterday.

[Jesse]

Everyone's talking about it.

[Katie]

Yes. And of course, we're talking about Michael Tracy getting kicked out of the sub sack party.

[Jesse]

Yeah. We're talking about the attempted assassination of Michael Tracy's reputation.

[Katie]

Yes. Yes. Did you see this?

[Jesse]

I don't. I did not have time to dig in fully. I saw a lot of tweeting about it. This goes to his. Basically, he, He. Well, he.

[Katie]

It goes to his personality.

[Jesse]

Goes to his personality. He could. So at one point, what I saw was that he was calling out Jim Acosta, almost like he was. It was like a Game of Thrones scene. And he was like outside the castle and he's like, I'm calling you out, King Acosta. I don't believe he actually engaged in fisticuffs with Jim Acosta. But there was also a confrontation with Julie K. Brown, the Florida reporter who broke a lot of the Jeff Epstein stuff. Although there's some. There's a whole thing. What else? So what is that? More or less what happened?

[Katie]

I like that you're on a first name basis with Jeff Epstein, the New York financier.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah. Jeff. My guy Jeff.

[Katie]

Yeah. So what happened is. So Substack had this big party over the week. I don't know if people probably didn't hear about this, but there was also an assassination attempt at the White House correspondence dinner. So the substack had a little, little.

[Jesse]

Can I just say. And I'm. I'm glad because I don't think assassination would Be good for everyone. Sort of a perfunctory assassination attempt.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Sort of a low effort one. And I'm glad. I'm glad for that. But it is not. You don't just like charge the first. The first line of defense. I mean, anyway, it wasn't thought through.

[Katie]

I thought what I liked about this one is that the potential assassin, he's poc. I like that. Most would be assassins of Donald Trump have been white. And so it's good to see a man diversity, some diversity in the. In the potential Donald assassination game. Anyway, so back to the important story.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, sorry. This was like a side thing that distracted people when the important action was happening outside the substack party, which I should just say I was invited to. I was invited to. You were too.

[Katie]

I was and I. Now I wish we'd gone.

[Jesse]

I'm not. I'm not surprised you did not fly across the cut. Can you imagine what role would we have played?

[Katie]

Both of us would have been. Would have been sitting there with plates full of food. You would have had grease dripping down

[Jesse]

your tux as everyone's rushing to see what's going on. They would have left the buffet totally unattended. And I would have absolutely taken advantage of that.

[Katie]

I would have been in the corner smoking weed with Andrew Sullivan.

[Jesse]

I would love to.

[Katie]

Anyway, so what happened is that subset had this like dueling White House correspondence party thing and. Yes. Michael Brown.

[Jesse]

Michael Brown.

[Katie]

Oh, God.

[Jesse]

Jesus.

[Katie]

Michael Tracy accosted a Jim Costed Acosta. Julie K. Brown. She has a. She has accused him of things like being on Epstein's payroll. Michael Tracy, way too old to be on the Epstein payroll, by the way. And so Michael Brown, who is a. I think to his credit, is confrontational.

[Jesse]

Maybe you just keep saying Michael Brown.

[Katie]

Oh, my. Sorry. Michael Tracy. Michael Tracy is a confrontational person. Not one, I would think, who has been in many combat, actual combat situations. And he approached Julie K. Brown and asked her, you know, you said like, prove it, prove it. That I was on the Epstein payroll and she was apparently trying to like, get out of the situation and he was following her around. And then Jim Acosta stepped in and had Michael Tracy ejected from the party, which I don't think is fair. I think it, like, I think at a substack party. I think Michael. I think Jim Acosta should have to leave.

[Jesse]

I. I don't know the details. I'm not going to say anything. I will say, like, I went to unheard event in Manhattan that Tracy was at and I'm like who did he.

[Katie]

Who did he accosted? That one.

[Jesse]

I forget her name. She was connected to the kids.

[Katie]

But something did happen.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, she was. Didn't cost her. He just asked aggressive question that wasn't connected to the night's proceedings because she was involved in the, the Cuomo stuff that Tracy thinks is like sort of made up. And my view is that Tracy, what I've read of his, when he sits down and does journalism and evaluates like Julie K. Brown's reporting or some of the Virginia Giuffre stuff, some of it I find to be both pretty. Pretty damning like that Tracy seems right and it could be I'm completely wrong, but Tracy should maybe stick to the reporting and writing and not be so confrontational in public.

[Katie]

That's what I like about him. He does not read the room.

[Jesse]

He doesn't. And it's important to have some journalists who don't read the room. That's like part of how you. Yeah, I mean, he. So he, he. I'm sure most of our listeners are familiar, but like, he like went around the country and like actually reported on what was going on during a summer of a lot of destruction and a lot of chaos and like, you know, you need to be able to not read the room to do good journalism. And in some cases he has. Yeah, I think maybe he shouldn't. I don't know. I don't know. What am I saying here?

[Katie]

Like, he doesn't abide by social niceties.

[Jesse]

He does not that you cannot accuse him of abiding by social niceties.

[Katie]

Okay. Anyway, that was the big drama of the weekend in D.C. and if anybody.

[Jesse]

And that's our. And that's our episode.

[Katie]

All right. So, Jesse, I had this entire episode planned today about like five different queer bars imploding. It's been Pride month for dyke drama that will, that will come. Don't worry. But my plans were waylaid thanks to Hasan Piker and Gia Tolentino. So that's going to be the bulk of the show today. We're going to discuss these radical chic moral arbiters shortly. But before we get to that, I want to briefly discuss Lena Dunham versus Lindy West. But before we get to that, this very 2020 drama crossed my timeline this week. That I must alert you to. So please read this Instagram post by. This is by someone named KW Bogan. No capitals in her name.

[Jesse]

The lowercase name stuff always, I think, is often a warning sign. But I'll try to be open minded as I read this KW Bogan. Again, that is lowercase. I am new to the literary world and just published my first book. The book includes Harry Potter references. As the time setting of the book is around 2008-2012. I am learning from reviews and booktok bookstagram discourse. Kill me Bookstagram. That use of Harry Potter references is received as violence is. I love the passive phrasing. Is received as violence toward the transgender that's capitalized and gender expansive community. As such references keep that horrible transphobes work circulating in the IP intellectual property. I did not know this before publishing. I really doubt that. I am genuinely truly sorry. I also doubt that.

[Katie]

Right. So if you mention the existence of Harry Potter, that's going to keep J.K. rowling's words and ideas and books circulating. It's that not the books themselves.

[Jesse]

It's like there's this evil figure whose name you can't even say out loud.

[Katie]

Yes, exactly.

[Jesse]

For example, and I have not read the book. I just know that because I'm so down down with the culture.

[Katie]

So this is a series of slides and in the third slide, Bogan goes on to say that by the time she learned that it was problematic to reference the existence of Harry Potter, the books were already in print. Quote. I know better now. Please know that future works of mine will not include any references to Harry Potter. I. I hope that she continues to reference him. But she calls him Scary Trotter. And she says that as part of her amends she is donating to Trans Lifeline. Quote. Much love and deepest apologies to all of my trans comrades, community members, friends and loved ones. I meant no harm, but I definitely acknowledge the impact and commit to doing better in the future. You deserve better than this. For me. Heart emoji.

[Jesse]

But. But. There's no but. There's no way this is true. This was a. Sorry. When was her book published?

[Katie]

It's. It's coming out now.

[Jesse]

There's no way that's just. There's no way that's true that she didn't know that. That in her world.

[Katie]

Right.

[Jesse]

There's no way she didn't know that J.K. rowling was controversial and reviled.

[Katie]

Well, yes, that's especially true because. So her real name is Katherine Wallobogan. I'm going to read to you her bio from her own website. Catherine is first, a storyteller, second, a scholar activist, and third, a joyful little freak.

[Jesse]

Wait, she stole my. She stole my bio.

[Katie]

You're a joyful big freak. Bisexual and Jewish. She grew up in Rural New England.

[Jesse]

Please just. I'm sorry. Just. Just make it stop. The fuck it. The 2020. Like I need within 30 seconds of introducing yourself, we have to know like who you are. Anybody cares. As though anybody cares.

[Katie]

An NIH funded doctoral student in clinical psy studying the intersections of bisexual identity, sexual trauma, sexual functioning and kink. She has published more than 30.

[Jesse]

That's brave to announce that in the era of Donald Trump.

[Katie]

That's true. She's published more than 30 peer reviewed papers in a host of the political blah blah blah. Bogan's 500,000 plus social media follows will recognize her as KW Bogan from her public Facing scholar activism Queering him, the first in the Avra and Kieran trilogy is Bogan's first novel. So she's in the queer community so much as it exists. So she absolutely of course knew about the rolling controversy and in fact had posted about it herself. And so in the comments, some someone's like, how did you not know about this? And here's how she responds. I'm not sure what to tell you. I have many queer and trans. Again, she capitalizes trans and loved ones. And I am queer myself. I didn't understand that making HP references was seen as supporting JKR's transphobia, for example. There are also numerous Buffy the Vampire Slayer references in the book. Nowhere have I received the feedback that referencing Buffy is equivalent to supporting Joss Whedon's misogyny or his abuse of the actors. This seems like a very particular case given who J.K. rowling is as a person. It's a special case, which I had to learn. So she's almost onto something there. Because that is. That's a contradiction, right? Why can you reference Buffy but you can't reference Harry Potter? But instead of saying this is stupid, I'm going to refer to whoever the I want. She says, I. I have learned. And now I know.

[Jesse]

Yeah, it just seems dishonest. But who knows?

[Katie]

Yeah, look who. Look who liked this post.

[Jesse]

Jesse, you're just trying to provoke stuff here.

[Katie]

Just saying.

[Jesse]

And an Internet culture reporter.

[Katie]

It was Taylor Lorenz, not Swift. So that's what's happening in queer literature. But lest you assume that these purity spirals exist only in pro trans spaces, allow me to disabuse you of that notion. Because at the same time that this was happening on Instagram and threads, J.K. rowling herself was getting dragged on X for using a trans woman's a trans woman friend's preferred pronouns in her 2020 article coming out as a turf. And someone brought this up in her, in her mentions over the past week. And she was like, look, I met this trans woman post transition. I know she's not female. She knows she's not female. And she said, quote, I find it perfectly easy to reconcile my fond feelings towards her and my experience of her as someone with very female coded energy, with a belief that she hasn't literally changed sex. And then later she specifically called out gender critical types who demand everyone adhere to their own rules about language and never, ever, ever use anyone's preferred pronouns. Rowling says some gender critical people seem to think that demanding we all use correct sex pronouns will return the world to sanity. This is an attempt to make the tail wag the dog. You cannot fight linguistic prescriptions with more linguistic prescription. And no rights campaign can succeed if its adherents are more interested in creating a purity spiral than allowing the smallest space for nuance or the complexities of human nature and feelings. Amen, sister. The pronoun policing has gotten just as dogmatic on terf x as it was on trans Twitter. And, and it's the same shit you see with this other author, KW Boygan. You know, her son was mentioning the existence of Harry Potter. Rowlingson was calling a personal friend of hers, she. And in both cases, it's this purity spiral nonsense that I think makes the movement weaker because no one likes having their language policed. And Personally, I think TERFs should look at the failures of the trans rights movements and try not to replicate them.

[Jesse]

Yeah, it just, I, I just, I don't know, I've. I've gotten over the years a steady stream of emails and like, actually one time I was asked this after I gave a talk, why do you use preferred pronouns? And it's just like, I don't know what to tell you. I do. Like, I think it's just, it's just, I think it's an etiquette thing. And I think in most cases that's the decision I've made. And I also think like, in some edge cases it's just not worth the hassle not to. I think there's, there's this weirdly woke thing among gender, some gender critical types that if I call someone a certain pronoun, I'm asserting that is their biological sex, that, that magically. And it's just not. I don't think that's really how language works.

[Katie]

Yeah, I mean, my position on this, which I've, I've said a thousand times before, is like, I will generally use people's preferred Pronouns to be polite. That doesn't mean I don't. I can't recognize what the difference between biological sex and your adopted gender. My exceptions are, like, violent men, women who just want attention, and any pronoun that my grandmother wouldn't recognize. And she's dead. So that's a long list. But, like, I'm not gonna favor anybo. But for the most part, I will engage in this polite social fiction publicly, privately call people whatever the fuck you want. That's my feelings about it. But there are costs to refusing to engage in this fiction, and I mostly. I just don't fucking like it when people police my language, whether that's coming from trans activists or terfs.

[Jesse]

I think we left out. Just to jerk us back to the other subject, we left out the most important part of the Michael Tracy story, which was so for Tracy. Tracy said Jim at Acosta threatened to fight me tonight in the substack party. And then a couple hours later, he, quote, retweets and says, you. You read that?

[Katie]

Still have no idea. Whatever went on with Trump tonight. Did something go on with Trump? Just know that Jim Acosta threw a fucking hissing, hissing fit.

[Jesse]

Hissing fit, not a hissy fit.

[Katie]

Pussy. Exclamation point. Jim, meet me in front of the Hampton Inn. And then he puts the address of the Hampton Inn.

[Jesse]

And then. And then someone named.

[Katie]

Presumably that's the address of the Hampton Inn. I don't. I'm not going to fact check that.

[Jesse]

Someone named Matt had a great response later, which is violence is bad. Incendiary rhetoric is bad. A journalist given the ex. Exact address of a Hampton Inn in D.C. down to the zip code and country, so that another journalist that he wishes to fight confined him at the exact Hampton Inn he's at is objectively funny, and I agree with that completely.

[Katie]

Yeah, that's true. All right, let's talk a little bit about Lena Dunham and Lindy West. I'm going to try to have no podcast without mentioning Lindy west ever again. Can we. Can we make that goal?

[Jesse]

Let's try. Or what about. Well, we were doing that with Keffles for a while.

[Katie]

We did that with Robin d'. Angelo.

[Jesse]

We should mention Aham for sure, because I think Aham is calling the shots.

[Katie]

He's the king of the throuple. Okay, so I have not read the new Lena Dunham book. I don't think you have either. Is that right, Jesse?

[Jesse]

I have not, no.

[Katie]

But I am interested in a couple of aspects of it. One is just that it's selling really well. So her book sold at least 60, 000 copies in the first week in 2026. That's huge. It's a number one bestseller in the US, Canada and the UK. And I am curious as to why this book is selling so well compared to Lindy west book, because there are some interesting parallels between the two of them. Both have written about fatness and body positivity. Both dish about their relationships. Both are totems of millennial feminism. They got similar treatment in the press. You know, both were featured in the New York Times. Both books were reviewed by major outlets. Both books were very much part of the discourse. Lindy's, I think, much more so than Lena's, actually. But only one has sold well. And it's completely possible that maybe Dunham's book is just better. Hard to say since we haven't read it. Maybe it's as simple as that. But I'm curious if you think there's other stuff going on here.

[Jesse]

I think Lita Dunham's actually a much bigger film. I mean, to have. How many. How many seasons was Girlson? Like five. I did actually see the whole thing, so I'm a good person. She.

[Katie]

Did you like girls?

[Jesse]

I mostly did. Like, yeah, six seasons. I mostly liked girls. And I thought some of the discourse about them being bad people was. I thought. Miss, the point is silly because I thought that was a huge part of the point was that they were narcissistic bad people. But I thought they were. I thought it was mostly good and compelling and yeah, I watched the whole thing. What about. What about you?

[Katie]

I did watch the whole thing. I thought the last season was terrible where she, like, it was as though she was trying to take some of the criticisms about the show being too white and like, squeeze some diversity into it. So she like gave herself a brown baby at the end.

[Jesse]

I thought with that. With that and like Sex in the City, the people, people. It's weird because New York is diverse, but it's also very segregated. So it's actually not at all unusual, especially for people in these sorts of circles.

[Katie]

Not everybody has a Camille.

[Jesse]

Not exactly. It's like, well, there's a Seinfeld where George is very excited that he makes a black friend or like a black coworker. So he brings him to events and introduces him as his close friend. That's what I do with Camille.

[Katie]

This is why the non binary exists, so white circles can add some diversity to their friend group.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, I thought, look, I get why people want more diversity, but These are not diverse circles.

[Katie]

It's not true to life. It's not.

[Jesse]

I mean, that's probably less so now, like over the years, you know, if you went to NYU and studied whatever artsy thing, I think it's probably more diverse than it used to be. But it's just. Just silly. If you, If. If you just as a principle, you want shows to be more diverse, that's fine. I don't think there's anything like unrealistic or like artificially white about girls. I think those are just those circles.

[Katie]

Yes. But also, it's also true that people called out shows like Girls for being too white. Has anybody called out the Big Bang Theory for being too white or Malcolm in the Middle for being too white? Like, it's like lean and done on. Because she.

[Jesse]

No, because it's the shows that people on Twitter care about. Like. Like lefties. Yeah.

[Katie]

Yeah. But no, I think. I think when we're asking why Lena's book has done so much better than Lindy's, I think the. The simplest and probably the best explanation is just that Lena Dunham is much more famous. Lindy west is well known. Both of them did have TV shows. Yes. But when it just comes to sheer fame, it's not even close. And.

[Jesse]

Well, let's do the. I'm curious. Like, this is a very rough proxy, but Instagram, Lena Dunham. Yes. Three million followers. There is no way. Lindy West, I bet she's in the mid six figures. Lindy West.

[Katie]

I bet she's less than that.

[Jesse]

Oh, yeah. Only 130. Only 135, 000.

[Katie]

Yeah.

[Jesse]

Oh, wait. Dr. Lindy West. That's a joke. I get it. I get it.

[Katie]

I know. I think she has an honorary degree

[Jesse]

and she puts that in her thing. Not as a joke.

[Katie]

I mean, it might be a like tongue in cheek, but I think she also has an on. I don't know. Maybe I thought that because. Maybe I think that just because she says that in her bio. Anyway, Lena is undoubtedly more famous than Lindy.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Katie]

And the number one thing that helps a booksell is being famous. And plus, like, this book is, from what I've heard about it, it's gossipy about and revealing about other famous people.

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Katie]

People want to know if Jack cheated on her with Lorde. People want to know what it was really like on the set of Girls. And she's apparently pretty candid in the book. And that's gonna be catnip to readers, I think, particularly women.

[Jesse]

Also, like we talked about This, I continue to think, Lindy, I thought the book was in it, like at the level of sentences, mostly well written, except for all those annoying.

[Katie]

You love exclamation points.

[Jesse]

Well, that was. Except for the fucking, maybe try not to be fascist exclamation. But it was extremely shallow. Like she did not even explain the most important thing, which is how she came to live in a throuple. It's like barely addressed.

[Katie]

Who sleeps in the middle.

[Jesse]

Maybe that doesn't matter because I think a lot of people, if you're buying a book from Lindy west or Lena Dunham, you're probably not first investigating is it good, you're buying it to support them. But I don't know, it seems like it was not, it was not like an illuminating or particularly interesting book. Especially the road trip where she. Well, this is just gonna launch me in a whole other thing.

[Katie]

Right?

[Jesse]

Yeah.

[Katie]

Okay. So Lee Stein pointed out something I thought was pretty astute. So she posted this. Selling 60, 000 copies of Fame Sick Week 1 is an incredible feat. Lindy turned her fans into enemies during her book launch. And Lena turned her former haters into fans. Lena is a master at leveraging attention. I think she's right about this. I mean, there's been this rash of think pieces from former Lena Dunham haters about how they were wrong. She actually is the voice of her generation. You know, Lena Dunham is good, actually. But when Lindy west fans express what I think was largely genuine concern about her and her relationship, based on what Lindy west herself wrote about her and her relationship, Lindy's response was to condescend to those same fans. You know, she did the baby voice, then her weird husband wrote the shitty emails. Like, why would someone, why would a fan support someone like that? She just comes across as very defensive. While Lena Dunham is self deprecating and seems more self aware and it's, it's charming. Like, I heard her on the New York Times interview podcast and the host asked why she thinks that she's always been so hated. She said, I think people hate me because I'm annoying and I've always been annoying.

[Jesse]

Oh man, that's refreshing. That's like how I would answer that question. Because I suck, I think.

[Katie]

I mean I'm, they hate me because I'm hateable. It's just, it's easier to root for someone who says that than someone who does the baby voice.

[Jesse]

But, but Lindy west might have done the baby voice. She also is very self deprecating in her own way. So I don't know if it's a perfect comparison, but she is.

[Katie]

But she also does this thing where she's like. And maybe Lena does it too, where she's like, I'm the best person in the world. You know what I mean? Like, she's self loathing.

[Jesse]

She definitely projects superiority over most of America in a way that I don't think Lena Dunham ever would.

[Katie]

Right. And Lena Dunham also just has a lot of practice on how to handle the public. Like she was a punching bag for years. Not just by the political right, although certainly there too. And really like big picture, her sins were very minor. Like, there was this whole narrative about her privilege. I'm using that in scarecrows because she's like average overland grad privilege. Her parents are successful working artists, but very few people outside of the art world would have heard of them if not for their famous daughter. Lena wasn't even the most privileged actor on Girls like. Her co stars were the children of David Mamet and Brian Williams. Those are true Nepo babies. Lena Dunham's mom makes like miniatures.

[Jesse]

Well, who was your favorite female girls character?

[Katie]

I hated all of them. And that's like, that was kind of my problem.

[Jesse]

That was the joy of. That was the joy of it.

[Katie]

Yeah. My problem with that show was that I found there was too much sex in it. And I found the sex, like, painful to watch. Like her whole relationship with Adam Driver, who's basically a strange looking shut in, was so the sex, like you could. You could tell what his apartment smelled like by just seeing it on screen. I found it like disgusting to watch. It made my skin crawl. I mean, that doesn't mean it's bad storytelling, but is it?

[Jesse]

But don't you think that's why it appealed to like straight women in their 20s? Because that's like somewhat more too many kissing noises.

[Katie]

I think I can see why other people liked it and I think the writing was smart and there were some funny moments. But I just like, I, I don't like. I don't like TV that's gratuitously sexual, especially when it's disgusting.

[Jesse]

This is more of a Katie thing. It is craft of the show thing. Yeah.

[Katie]

If they had put bars over the sex, the sex scenes, like completely censored it and muted it, maybe it would have been tolerable.

[Jesse]

There was like an infamous ass eating scene toward the end of it.

[Katie]

His ass gotti in was it.

[Jesse]

I don't want no defamation. He was Allison Williams. Let me double check ass Eating Allison Williams. Yeah. First. The first. The first thing is Allison Williams gets her ass eating. And then there's a YouTube video. The story behind the Alison Williams ass eating. Of course there's a hole. Only Allison William. Oh, God. BK Mag. Brooklyn Mag.

[Katie]

Jesse's watching it right now.

[Jesse]

I'm just reading one more headline about this because it was a whole thing. I'm not. I am not watching it. But only Allison Williams could make getting her ass eaten out boring. Oh, that's kind of harsh.

[Katie]

Do you remember when Lena Dunham got in trouble over the Odell Beckham Jr. Thing?

[Jesse]

What did she do?

[Katie]

Oh, this was. This was actually very funny. So she went to the Met. The Met gala. And then afterwards, she was seated next to Odell Beckham Jr. And afterwards she did this. She had. She used to have it. She was before her time when it came to newsletter. She had this thing called Lenny Letter. And it was a newsletter, and she was talking. It was, like, published in. In Lenny Letters, this conversation she had with Amy Schumer. And she said, here's the exact quote, And Odell Beckham Jr. Is an NFL player, wide receiver. I was sitting next to Odell Beckham Jr. And it was so amazing because he, like, looked at me and determined I was not the shape of a woman by his standards. He was like, that's a marshmallow. That's a child. That's a dog. It wasn't mean.

[Jesse]

He just seemed confused.

[Katie]

It's very funny. But there was this huge backlash to this for the crime of racism. Odell Beckham Jr. Is.

[Jesse]

Oh, my God.

[Katie]

Roxanne Day. Roxane Gay called her out for being insufficiently intersectional. Lena Dunham was dragged all over the Internet. There were pieces like, women of color. It's time to divest from Lena Dunham.

[Jesse]

This is such a good example of why millennial feminism failed. Because, like, she. She's. Look, obviously there's something a little bit unfair because she can't. She can't look into Odell Beckham Jr. But this is something like any.

[Katie]

It's also probably true. Like, do you think that Odell Beckham Jr. Is attracted to girls who eat entire meals in bed? Probably not.

[Jesse]

No. No. Right. But my point is, she's talking about basically a universal female experience for any woman who is not sort of traditionally hot. And, like, whether or not this was actually true in opg, being at the

[Katie]

Met, being being seated next to an NFL player, it is a very relatable experience.

[Jesse]

But it's. It's just sort of perfect. In terms of what happened to millennial feminism, that there's like, there's no fucking unity among just women. I was like, yeah, this is a thing. The patriarchy is bad. Misogyny is bad. It's all just. You accused a guy of misogyny, but he had the wrong skin color for you to do that. Whereas if he. I mean, it's just all. It's sort of bullshit all the way down.

[Katie]

And Lena Dunham did the thing that you shouldn't do, and she apologized for this. So here's what she did.

[Jesse]

She'd apologize in a. In a. In a baby voice.

[Katie]

She. She apologized for, quote, contributing to a long and often violent history of the over sexualization of black male bodies.

[Jesse]

Okay, you know what? I don't. I don't care anymore. I don't likely.

[Katie]

Anything I say as false accusations by white women towards black men.

[Jesse]

This is basically the Emmett Till story all over again. It's literally. Also, she was not accused. She was accusing him of under sexualization, not being interested in her.

[Katie]

Right, right. So she did shit like that. That's the sort of thing that made me dislike Lena Dunham was the apologies of, like, she.

[Jesse]

I forgot. She called me. She called me an asshole.

[Katie]

Oh, she did. Okay. Now I like her again.

[Jesse]

Yeah, yeah, she had. So she had good taste in something. Well, it was like sort of bank shot where like, someone else talked shit about me. And then she replied, what an asshole.

[Katie]

Yeah, she also. She def. Against a rape allegation. Can't have that.

[Jesse]

Who was her friend?

[Katie]

He was a writer for Girls something. Murray. Miles Murray. I looked him up the other day and he has not worked since then. She apologized for that too. So it. So she has. She has always provoked this outsized degree of hate, considering the degree of her sins, which I think is frankly, largely jealousy because she looks like a normal person, but she's had the success of a star, and that makes people resentful. I mean, I. Resentful? She's fucking younger than me. How dare she? It's sick, but she does. But it does appear that things are going well for her now, at least with this book.

[Jesse]

Can I just say, just the girls would mark such like a moment that's different in some ways. In the same. And others. Read this onion about her and tell me if they would ever publish something like this today.

[Katie]

Next episode of Girls to feature Lena Dunham shitting herself during gyno exam while eating a burrito. Absolutely not. Ben Collins, Onion would never.

[Jesse]

Absolutely.

[Katie]

That would be. That was like. That would be a girls episode.

[Jesse]

The Onion. The Onion became so establishment. Like, I mean, they still do some funny stuff, but they just would never, ever, like, sort of criticize. Anyway, continue.

[Katie]

That's all I have to say about Lena Dunham. Okay, Jesse, so let's move on to Hasan Piker and Gia Tolentino. So the New York Times, I think

[Jesse]

my two favorite cultural commentators on the same podcast at the same time is such a. Such a joy. And I was so excited when I saw this had happened. So I assume you just want to, like, praise it for a while and call it a day.

[Katie]

Yeah. So this is part of this new feature that the New York Times opinion section is doing. It's these.

[Jesse]

Called Make Everyone Hate Us.

[Katie]

It's these video podcasts where two people of varying degrees of insufferability are in discussion with culture editor Nadia Spiegelman. It's a good feature. There's lots of opportunities for rage bait here. Have you seen any besides this one?

[Jesse]

No.

[Katie]

So we actually talked about one a couple weeks ago when they had Brock Coiler and Amanito. So on it.

[Jesse]

Oh, I. So, yeah, I forgot. And. And. Okay. Yeah, we did. I'm sorry.

[Katie]

Yeah. So that one was on the death and rebirth of Wokeness. I. I do think this is a good feature, especially because these interviews, like, invariably will end up pissing a lot of people off, which is what happened in this one that we're going to talk about today. But before we get into it, everyone listening to this is surely familiar with Hassan Piker. We have talked about him plenty of. But Gia Tolentino, I think she's only come up in any significant way in one episode. Do you remember what that was about?

[Jesse]

I do, because I was reviewing some of the details today, which is Gia, who's a superstar New Yorker writer, or, I don't know, maybe her star is peaked. But she was like the writer in New York media circles.

[Katie]

She was the voice of a generation.

[Jesse]

She and Lena Dunham were both the voice of a generation.

[Katie]

The same thing.

[Jesse]

How many voices of a generation can you have? I don't know. Some folks dug up online that her father had pled guilty to. Well, it was part of sort of a. What was seen as a trafficking scheme of bringing Phil. She's Filipino by descent. I mean, she's American. Of Filipino descent. That's it. That's all you get for the preview, you freeloaders. If you want to hear the rest, go to blocktramport.org and become a premium subscriber. Bye.