Episode 543 - Jenny Lesieutre | Ground Zero For The Wild Horse Debate

Summary

Blood Origins Podcast Summary

Episode: 543 - Jenny Lesieutre | Ground Zero For The Wild Horse Debate
Release Date: March 11, 2025
Host: Blood Origins Inc.
Guest: Jenny Lesieutre

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Introduction

In Episode 543 of Blood Origins, host Mike Axelrod engages in a candid and in-depth conversation with Jenny Lesieutre, a former Bureau of Land Management (BLM) employee with nearly two decades of experience in wild horse management. The discussion delves into the complexities of wild horse overpopulation, its environmental impact, and the challenges faced in managing these populations effectively.

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Background of Jenny Lesieutre

Jenny Lesieutre introduces herself as a first-generation American with a diverse background, including roles with the State Department, Millennium Challenge Corporation, and Library of Congress before her 18-year tenure with the BLM.

Jenny Lesieutre [05:33]: "My name is Jenny Lesieutre. I'm currently retired, per se. I worked for the Federal government for 20 years, 18 of which were with the BLM."

Her deep connection to Nevada and public lands underscores her commitment to wildlife management and conservation.

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The Wild Horse Debate

Current Population Numbers

Lesieutre presents alarming statistics regarding wild horse populations:

• On BLM Lands: Approximately 73,000 horses estimated as of last March.
• In Corrals: 68,000 horses are currently housed across 29 corrals in 10 Western states.
• Total Estimate: Including private and state lands, the population likely exceeds 100,000, potentially reaching 180,000 when accounting for uncounted and pregnant mares.

Jenny Lesieutre [37:05]: "68,000 is nearly three times what the appropriate management of wild horses on the range currently sits at across the entire range."

Impact on the Environment and Rangelands

Lesieutre emphasizes the detrimental effects of overpopulation on Nevada's arid landscapes:

• Habitat Degradation: Overgrazing leads to the destruction of riparian zones, reduction of native vegetation, and overall ecological imbalance.
• Water Sources: Excessive horse populations strain limited water resources, crucial in one of America's most arid states.

Jenny Lesieutre [24:19]: "We've been kicking the can down the road and now people are pissed. We're having an ecological disaster, especially here in Nevada."

Management Challenges

Several hurdles complicate effective wild horse management:

• Legislation Constraints: The 1971 Wild Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act prohibits the euthanasia of healthy horses, complicating population control efforts.

  Jenny Lesieutre [17:56]: "It really did. There's a lot more complexities to it, but yes, it did. And of course, states and everything else went on that."

• Political Interference: Changes in administration can lead to shifts in policy and funding, disrupting ongoing management strategies.

  Jenny Lesieutre [52:43]: "Inappropriate ways. So 141 million, and now we're three times over... you need to gather 20,000 horses."

• Funding Misallocation: Increased budgets have not translated into effective population control, resulting in ballooning horse numbers.

  Jenny Lesieutre [42:51]: "Our budget back then was $29 million. Today, our budget last year was over 141 million dollars."

Political and Legislative Hurdles

Lesieutre critiques the influence of advocacy groups and the legislative environment that hinders practical management:

• Advocacy Group Influence: Organizations fundraise by appealing to emotions, often diverting funds away from conservation efforts.

  Jenny Lesieutre [14:19]: "These groups really do care... What they're not realizing is none of that money goes back to the animals or rangeland restoration."

• Legislative Ineffectiveness: Despite numerous bills (127 since the act's passage), little tangible progress has been made in managing horse populations.

  Jenny Lesieutre [55:03]: "Since the act's been passed, have anything been put into law? No."

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Conservation and Ethical Considerations

Adoption Programs

Adoption rates have historically been low, limiting their effectiveness as a management tool:

Jenny Lesieutre [42:51]: "At one point, 2007, we're a thousand horses away... so that means all we had to do was gather 3,500 to 5,000 a year to keep it at appropriate management levels."

Euthanasia and Mortality Rates

Lesieutre discusses the harsh realities of managing overpopulated horse herds:

• High Mortality Rates: Due to inadequate management, numerous horses suffer from injuries and disease, leading to high euthanasia rates.

  Jenny Lesieutre [35:08]: "They have freeze marks... they get a freeze mark on their left side of their neck... to ensure they're being humanely treated."

• Ethical Dilemmas: The balance between humane treatment and effective population control poses significant ethical challenges.

  Jenny Lesieutre [37:27]: "We are having an ecological disaster, especially here in Nevada... my children aren't going to be able to enjoy the outdoors."

Economic Aspects of Wildlife Management

Lesieutre highlights the lack of economic incentives for responsibly managing wild horse populations:

• Utilization of Euthanized Horses: Unlike hunted wildlife where the meat and parts are utilized, wild horses often go to waste, representing a missed economic opportunity.

  Jenny Lesieutre [60:29]: "When we euthanize, we should use the meat, we should use the bones, we should use the organs... out of respect for that 100%."

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Conclusion and Future Steps

Lesieutre calls for a unified and scientifically grounded approach to wild horse management, emphasizing the need for:

• Biodiversity Protection: Prioritizing ecosystem health over individual species preservation when necessary.

  Jenny Lesieutre [45:31]: "Think about, you know, the deer out on the range... Everything should be on the same level."

• Political Mobilization: Encouraging the hunting and conservation communities to engage more effectively in political advocacy to influence legislation.

  Jenny Lesieutre [60:54]: "If a plant's not growing, why isn't it growing? If there's no water and there was a water hole here, what happened to it?"

• Enhanced Utilization Practices: Implementing strategies to utilize all parts of euthanized horses to honor animal welfare and reduce waste.

Jenny Lesieutre [60:47]: "We should use everything that you do. Why aren't you putting the mule deer on a pedestal next to it?"

Lesieutre expresses optimism that with increased awareness and strategic action, effective management can be achieved to preserve both wild horse populations and the integrity of Western rangelands for future generations.

Jenny Lesieutre [62:01]: "It's time to get the word out... my grandkids don't have to go to a zoo to see an animal or go to a park to see green grass."

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Notable Quotes

• Jenny Lesieutre [14:19]: "And there's layers in the federal government currently... nothing goes back to the animals or rangeland restoration."
• Jenny Lesieutre [24:19]: "We're having an ecological disaster, especially here in Nevada."
• Jenny Lesieutre [37:05]: "68,000 is nearly three times what the appropriate management of wild horses on the range currently sits at."

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Final Thoughts

This episode sheds light on the urgent need for reform in wild horse management policies. By presenting data-driven arguments and highlighting the ecological consequences of inaction, Jenny Lesieutre provides listeners with a compelling case for re-evaluating current practices and advocating for sustainable solutions.

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Thank you for listening to Blood Origins. Remember to leave a review, share the podcast with friends, and engage in conversations that matter for conservation and sustainable wildlife management.

Transcript

[Mike Axelrod]

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[Jenny Laciette]

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[Mike Axelrod]

FishingBooker Fishing trips made Easy Jenny Luciet, used to be a BLM employee for 18 years in the state of Nevada, has been involved in the wild horse management space for almost two decades and is now speaking out. She's now speaking out around the management of wild horses across its range. Not from a standpoint of hating horses, as you'll hear from her. She loves horses. She has horses. She even has a branded tattooed mustang that was a wild horse. She'll be the first one to tell you she loves them, but she'll also be the first one to tell you that they're destroying the habitat, they're destroying the environment, and some sort of management needs to occur. There is a compromise here and there is a need for work to be done on figuring out what to do next because the idea of just leaving the wild horses alone has led to significant habitat degradation across the range, no matter what anybody says. So this is the first conversation with Jenny that's probably going to have multiple iterations in the future, but this is a ground system setting kind of podcast. There's significant amount of information in this podcast that you need to bury in your brains and as you expect, just a great, intimate, logical, intelligent discussion about a real wildlife management issue on the ground right now. Enjoy. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins, and that reason is simple is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting. It brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals.

[Jenny Laciette]

How do I start it? Brittany My name? Does my hair look okay?

[Mike Axelrod]

My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a. A feminist that works for a nonprofit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter. Saburos eat poisonous.

[Jenny Laciette]

What's that?

[Mike Axelrod]

Bureaus.

[Jenny Laciette]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Burrows.

[Jenny Laciette]

Burrows.

[Mike Axelrod]

Burrows.

[Jenny Laciette]

B U, R, R, O.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's what I said.

[Jenny Laciette]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

Bureaus.

[Jenny Laciette]

Yeah. Bureau is like the Bureau of Land Management.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's not what I said. I said bureau. Oh, I can roll Rs. I'm South African. No, I do not speak Italian.

[Jenny Laciette]

That's French.

[Mike Axelrod]

So burros are more hardy, more resilient on the landscape than borders.

[Jenny Laciette]

They're different. I'm going to say they're different. You know, they're obviously a smaller animal. They're actually built very differently, and their internal organs are different. They've got, you know, their. Their livers will deal with, you know, anything from the range. So they can literally eat some what would be poisonous plants to horses and be fine about it. Again, they're not ones that will fight, you know, with the horses, it's fight or flight. And typically they're flight burrows. You start pushing them, and they'll stand and stand their ground. Now, let's talk about this. And what are we talking about? Wildlife issues. How these horses and burros are affected.

[Mike Axelrod]

You want to just dive in there?

[Jenny Laciette]

I want to dive in right away.

[Mike Axelrod]

Don't even introduce yourself.

[Jenny Laciette]

Oh, okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

I wonder you can speak French, Jenny. Well, lucyet.

[Jenny Laciette]

You got it. And that's that.

[Mike Axelrod]

Welcome to the Blood Origins podcast. I mean, what's unusual about it that I could.

[Jenny Laciette]

That you could pronounce my last name?

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, I had some. Some friends help me. Friends like Fritz Richards.

[Jenny Laciette]

He's. He's. He's a good guy.

[Mike Axelrod]

I mean, special individual. He's the only person I know that has survived a mountain lion attack and has the scars to show. Show it well.

[Jenny Laciette]

And I heard those claws were more in the metal effect.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, they were very straight and linear. I've never seen something like it. It's quite amazing.

[Jenny Laciette]

And coming from up, up, down, up, down. That's unusual.

[Mike Axelrod]

Zero to 90 swipe. That was amazing. So, Jenny, introduce yourself. Who are you?

[Jenny Laciette]

So, my name is Jenny Laciette. I'm currently retired, per se.

[Mike Axelrod]

Retired from?

[Jenny Laciette]

Well, I worked for the Federal government for 20 years.

[Mike Axelrod]

BLM.

[Jenny Laciette]

BLM for 18, 19 years. Prior to that, I was a contractor originally with the State Department, and then the Millennium Challenge Corporation also worked at the Library of Congress. But. But I came into the federal government as a political appointee in the Bush administration. A Schedule C. So started with the Millennium Challenge Corporation, which is.

[Mike Axelrod]

Are they still around today?

[Jenny Laciette]

They are. It was a presidential initiative that Colin Powell drove up and called it basically like after World War II, same effect. You know, they're going to rebuild these areas. So it was definitely, you know, under the Terrorism act at the time. And it's really the whole function of that was international grants based on policy reform to the poorest countries in the world. So was able to travel to Africa and South America and do a couple things, signing what we called compacts.

[Mike Axelrod]

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[Jenny Laciette]

So the Millennium Challenge Corporation really opened my eyes to D.C. and how that functioned. And it was the CEO of the Millennium Challenge Corporation that brought me into the federal government as a political appointee. So with the Millennium Challenge is what opened the door to the Bureau of Land Management for me. Once the. The CEO left there, that whole team of political appointees usually move on. But the White House will place them.

[Mike Axelrod]

Sure.

[Jenny Laciette]

So in my interview with the White House, basically walked into a room. I was pretty naive back then in D.C. walked in there and they were throwing, you know, deputy secretaries at the State Department wanted me to go here and there and things like that. And I finally turned to the group and said, you know, from Arizona, I really want. I'm interested in working at either the Department of Ag or Department of Interior and getting home to Nevada and based on the landscape and open properties. So, you know, they kind of looked at me because at that time, international after 911 was huge. And all of a sudden, after reading my resume that I'd ran ranches and a horse person, they all left the room, came back in about half an hour later and said, hey, we've got to, you know, you need to go talk to the director of blm. And that's how I got into that. So originally my job.

[Mike Axelrod]

You're originally from Nevada, right?

[Jenny Laciette]

Well, I call Nevada home.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay. But not originally from here.

[Jenny Laciette]

No. My father was special ops in the military. I'm basically a first generation American. My father's from France, my mother's from Poland. Okay. So we didn't really travel like most military folks. But I was in Germany until I was probably 10 years old. Florida a little bit, and then moved out east once I was going to school and went to Arizona State, but found Nevada. And it's kind of like this. It used to be this secret place that people really went to. But for me and for so many people you talk to here in Nevada, you get here and you basically fall in love with it, especially if you're outdoors, you know, 68% of Nevada is managed by the Bureau of land management.

[Mike Axelrod]

68%.

[Jenny Laciette]

68% of land mass in Nevada is public lands. And I think that's why.

[Mike Axelrod]

Is that where you got placed? Is that the BLM said that's where you're going?

[Jenny Laciette]

Well, at that time, no, I was in D.C. still.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[Jenny Laciette]

But my plan was always to come home okay. And in order to do that, you're trying to position yourself and, you know, bottom line, I wanted to get back to an area that was public lands, whether it was Wyoming or Nevada.

[Mike Axelrod]

Is that something you just love?

[Jenny Laciette]

Oh, gosh, you Know, I, I think that's the hardest part about the issue we're going to start talking about is, you know, being able to just go out in the middle of nowhere to sit on a gather in Nevada and look around. And I've done it a million times with media folks. It's like, you know, look around, tell me what you see or don't see. And we can literally be sitting in an area where you can't see a power line or a telephone pole. You are in the middle of nowhere and it's not fenced off. You know, one of the sayings here in Nevada is don't fence me in. It is a fence out state. If you've got private property and you don't want animals or things coming on your property, you have to fence it in. So, you know, being an outdoors person, loving our public lands or lands period, wildlife, all of that stuff, it draws you, it draws you in. And really the beauty, everybody thinks of Nevada as Las Vegas. And the truth is northern Nevada, I mean, the amount of mountain ranges and creeks and streams, and yet it's one of the most arid places in America. Average rainfall here, about 7 to 10 inches.

[Mike Axelrod]

Even with all the snow that you get here.

[Jenny Laciette]

Even with all the snow. I mean, that's basically almost like the reservoir if you think of it that way. Lake Tahoe feeds a lot of northern Nevada through water sources, things like that. And then you've got lakes around that are basically runoff lakes. So there are a lot of spring and riparian areas throughout Nevada. But again, that's, that's another source that is being devastated by overpopulation of any grazing animal. You know, back in the 30s, just.

[Mike Axelrod]

So happens to be horses.

[Jenny Laciette]

Yeah. Today it so happens to be horses.

[Mike Axelrod]

Let me ask a blunt question.

[Jenny Laciette]

Sure.

[Mike Axelrod]

I haven't interacted a lot with the anti management horse people. Are they special people?

[Jenny Laciette]

You know, when I.

[Mike Axelrod]

They love animals.

[Jenny Laciette]

Well, I think they love that looks.

[Mike Axelrod]

This is an audio medium. You can't give looks like that. The look that she just gave me was, mm, I dab it.

[Jenny Laciette]

Well, it's frustrating. I think what these groups do is they pull up the heartstrings of people that truly do love the animals, whether it's horses or wildlife or anything else. And they do that and they make a fortune. Millions and millions of dollars in donation dollars. And you know, I'm saying that bluntly and I'm saying that, you know, not representing anybody, I'm telling you things that I've gone through for 18 years, anywhere from, you know, Just won't listen to logic to don't. Death threats in some cases, death threats to you, death threats to me, death threats to people that are still working in the organizations. You know, and truthfully it's frustrating because these people really do care that are donating the dollars. What they're not realizing is none of that money goes back to the animals or rangeland restoration in that case. Because bottom line, if our rage lands and water sources are completely destroyed, then what happens? Everything dies. And I don't care if it's a horse or wildlife or anything else, but let's face it, horses and burros are not a natural wildlife. Within the BLM they've got what they call herd management areas. Across the 10 Western states, there's 177 herd management areas. 177, 77.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, 77. 177 across the entire Rocky Mountain West.

[Jenny Laciette]

Yeah. 10 Western states, Arizona, on to Colorado, Montana, Wyoming, those places. Nevada is the epicenter. We have 83 herd management areas. Of those 177 on the broad prospect in. We're just kind of talking about BLM because they're the main source. There's many more wild horses out there, from tribal lands to state managed horses. Private. Well, let's forget about the domestic horses. Let's just talk about wild horses.

[Mike Axelrod]

There's wild horses on private land.

[Jenny Laciette]

Well, now there's. Because, well, there's overpopulation and we see it in the rural areas that people are fighting them or not fighters.

[Mike Axelrod]

So what's supposed to happen in these herd management units?

[Jenny Laciette]

So what they call herd. So in 1971 they flew areas and distinguished where horses were found and in 60 days they gave us a 60 day waiting period or claiming period for ranchers to go out and collect their private property, their horses. From that they flew it again and then distinguished the herd management areas where they were going to manage horses. Many years went past where they're determining, you know, triggers, is there enough water, is there forage? You know, since 1971 highways have been built. Urban growth is a huge issue on that. So through resource management planning, environmental assessments, those sort of things, things have been delineated or taken away or zeroed out or combined over the years and we'll continue to do that as especially urban growth happens and currently. So at the time the act was passed, it was really a feel good.

[Mike Axelrod]

Act passed in 1971 or 1977.

[Jenny Laciette]

So 1971 is when it passed. It's called the 1971 wild free roaming horses and burros act, the only act that actually per se protects the animal or acknowledges the animal.

[Mike Axelrod]

Was it that act that made it illegal to hunt or shoot a wild horse and Bureau.

[Jenny Laciette]

It really did. There's a lot more complexities to it, but yes, it did. And of course, states and everything else, you know, went on that. But back in the days, they had mustangers. Basically what today would be, in a sense, contractors that went out and utilized, just like hunting. Okay. They managed the horses on the range. And what.

[Mike Axelrod]

And what were the management options back then?

[Jenny Laciette]

Well, back then, they were just like hunting. I mean, they were used. Some. Many of these mustangers would go out and capture these horses and actually use them for riding, would break them, turn around and train them, turn around and sell them. You know, it's definitely a business. The other side of it is they were used for commercial, you know, purposes, whether it was back then in dog food. But if. If you look at any wildlife, it's the same thing. You know, everything is used for something, whether it's cosmic or leather products in the.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, it gives the animal more value if it's used.

[Jenny Laciette]

Oh, my gosh, I'm glad you said that, because this has been a really big talk. It's like we have a financial aspect to wildlife, those sort of things. But is there any type of economical balance or use of a horse today? And definitely, I want to get into those numbers because it's frightening. What I want to point out in 1971 was what Wild horse anning has been twisted by what your bluntness of these groups to favor their businesses. Her issue was the transportation of horses. People would gather up horses and just stuff them in a trailer, following a trailer. One day she came across and blood was coming out the back of it. And what had happened is there was a foal in there that got trampled and killed by studs and mares that were fighting within the trailer. So the 1956 wild horse Annie act was talking about transportation of horses, poisoning of water holes, because that was being done as well. If these horses were overtaking ranching areas.

[Mike Axelrod]

Sounds like poisoning a carcass to kill as many lions as you want.

[Jenny Laciette]

Right, right.

[Mike Axelrod]

Because they're destroying.

[Jenny Laciette]

And we're seeing in a lot of these urban areas, the population of lions are now quadrupled.

[Mike Axelrod]

You mean mountain lions?

[Jenny Laciette]

Mountain lions.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, I was talking about African lions.

[Jenny Laciette]

Oh, well, the bigger one, same scenario.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jenny Laciette]

But it. But it's the same case, you know, I mean, so that made the 1956 act was about transportation and about the means of how these mustangers were gathering horses at that time. There's a great movie out with Marilyn Monroe, the Misfits, that was filmed here in Nevada. And at that time they were using planes to scrape the lands, run these horses as hard as they could, and then basically lassoing them with ropes.

[Mike Axelrod]

And sure it's not Karen trying to text you?

[Jenny Laciette]

Yeah. Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

See if she's found something to help us. So let me ask this question. And as you're, as you're working. So these guys, these mustang is back in the day, are using the wildlife. They're not the wildlife. They're using these horses obviously to sell an economic asset to them. Obviously there's some meat elements to it back in the day. People would probably be.

[Jenny Laciette]

There still is today.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, of course there is.

[Jenny Laciette]

Nobody will talk about it, but there still is.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, it's, it's, it's, you know, I guess it's. It's cultural. Right. The French love horse meat.

[Jenny Laciette]

Well, believe it or not, the Asians are the main buyers of during when the slaughter act was available in the United States commercially. We ship more from. From slaughter commercial processing to Asian and Asian countries.

[Mike Axelrod]

But even like pet foods, zoos.

[Jenny Laciette]

Let's talk about a humanitarian effort. I mean India, India doesn't allow them to eat cows. We eat them right and left here. If we choose Italian United States not to eat horses, but of the African countries would be thrilled with that type of protein. Unbelievable. The. The layer of protein in. In horse meat is much higher than cattle. You know, less fat, higher protein, just like wildlife.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, that's crazy. And it's, and it's, it is as you said, and I've said it before as well, it's this, it's this rhetoric that is, is beyond. So let's just. I'm in obviously the hunting lane. And there's an anti hunting rhetoric.

[Jenny Laciette]

Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

Same people, same people. But it is a bigger rhetoric when you take a step back, which is an anti use rhetoric.

[Jenny Laciette]

Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

Is there obviously different parts of the world, different parts of the world, different parts of the range will look differently. But could anybody argue that they're not having an impact?

[Jenny Laciette]

I don't know how they can. I mean, I've got, you know, obviously this is. Is not on film or anything else, but I've got just in, in the 18 years, I've probably been on well over 100 gathers across Nevada, mainly in Wyoming, Idaho, other areas. But I've literally got pictures just even within the last five years, because that's really where we're seeing major, major impact of the same locations a year apart or a couple years apart, where, you know, you've got rice grass up to your, you know, hips.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Jenny Laciette]

And two years later, it looks like the moon. It's moonscaped. These horses will.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's not drought.

[Jenny Laciette]

Well, I mean, you know, of course things like that will have an effect on it.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Jenny Laciette]

But we've been in the best years, the last three years here in Nevada, we've had more snowfall and rainfall than in previous years, but it is notorious for being drought ridden. We're high, arid, desert land. So to sit there and say that the horses aren't having effect, I don't care if it's a horse or a cow or their hunting licenses, all of a sudden there isn't any hunters. They manage the wildlife through hunting licenses and that's their population control. Currently, even though the act itself, it's very specific, currently, the only thing that we're able to do is gather these animals and we can't kill them because. Not what the law says. But the rhetoric.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, because the law says. You told me something about there was an amendment to the law that said if these animals are gathered and over 10 years old, they can be removed, they can be exterminated, they can be destroyed. So exterminated was the wrong word.

[Jenny Laciette]

Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

They shall be destroyed. It's not.

[Jenny Laciette]

Maybe not. Think about it.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, that's the law.

[Jenny Laciette]

That's the law.

[Mike Axelrod]

So why doesn't anybody sued the government?

[Jenny Laciette]

Good question. And I think there's been attempts because.

[Mike Axelrod]

It happens the other way all the time.

[Jenny Laciette]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Right. Oh, you're not doing that.

[Jenny Laciette]

Poof.

[Mike Axelrod]

Sue.

[Jenny Laciette]

Yeah. And I think people there, in the past, people haven't really seen the effect. Right. You know, these are things that don't happen overnight, but these groups have been around for years fighting every issue, whether it's in hunting or. Or horses or things like that, you know, lions, predators, etc. And so they've built a very good base. They've got the ear of Congress. I mean, think about this. Why would a senator in Vermont care about or why wouldn't they care about killing a horse in Vermont when they have no idea what it looks like here in the West Coast? You know, there are specific people are in Vermont. You know, rain is very heavy in that area or east of the Mississippi. You know, their landscape is very, very different. So why would a Vermont senator vote to allow us to kill horses? They've never changed the law. The law still remains in place. What happens is Congress now can come in and say, in what they call riders and say, you can't use government funds to euthanize any healthy horse. Well, what's a healthy horse? It says it in the act if they're old, sick or lame. But where's the. So the layers in the federal government currently? Basically anything managed by the federal government. You got too many landlords. And when I say that you've got congressional members and you've got senators, and they're focused on their states and what's going to benefit their state. So if a bill comes across the table, let me tell you this, there's 127 pieces of legislation just with wild horses. Since the act's been passed, have it, has anything been put into law?

[Mike Axelrod]

Any of this on 27 tied to actual management?

[Jenny Laciette]

No, no, it's humane treatment. It's stopping using helicopters to gather, which quite frankly is the most safest way to gather a horse.

[Mike Axelrod]

What were the reasons for why they didn't want to use helicopters anymore?

[Jenny Laciette]

So you go on a gather and just. I'm going to pull numbers from my head, especially here in Nevada, you go on a gather where the plan is to remove 2200 horses, 2,200 horses. I don't care if one dies or 100 die. That's their, that is their money right there. That's their advertisement, that's their fundraiser. So they don't talk about all the animals or the landscape or the wildlife that benefit from this gather. What they talk about is this horse came into the trap and it hit the fence and it broke its neck. And then in some cases, out of an act of mercy, and in a lot of cases, especially with the overpopulation, the BLM is required to put down an animal as an act of mercy. You know, broken limbs that they've been out on the range. I've seen horses come in with three legs. I've literally seen a horse having a coyote chew off its back leg before. What these horses can, are enabled, are able to sustain is incredible. I've seen mares come in, clearly had broken backs from being, you know, basically abused by studs during mating season. Yet it healed and they were still able to keep up with a small heard. Yet the, the amount of pain that these animals go through, it's an act of mercy. Look, Mother nature is not kind.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, no, she's a bitch. She's a bitch. She's. She's violent, she's cruel, she has no ethics, she has no rights, she has no morals. That's those are all constructs from humans onto, onto the animal kingdom.

[Jenny Laciette]

And you're nailing what this whole plan is for these groups. They're showing the pretty pictures of a fat horse out on the range. And for years the government wasn't allowed depending on the administration to show, you know, the reverse effects of what really is going on out there. I got to a point where that's all I did was talk about it. You know, I kind of took my career backwards and was just speaking about it and showing the history and showing, you know, the damage that were being done and talking about the numbers of wildlife that we were losing in comparison to the horse numbers going up.

[Mike Axelrod]

Has anybody correlated those that data? What are the correlations of mule deer going up? So take a specific unit, like a watershed unit and go, okay, we've got pretty good mule deer data from, you know, whether it's Nevada gang fish or Arizona Fish and Wildlife Commission. And look at the mule deer number in that unit and just trend it over time and then trend over time the same horses number, horse numbers. And this should be not, not that we're inferring causation here, but it should be pretty clear. Mule deer numbers down linearly or exponentially and horses numbers going up whether linearly or exponentially, look appropriately. Has anybody done that?

[Jenny Laciette]

Well, yeah, I mean, there's the Sheridan Conservation Area up on the north side of Nevada right into Idaho and that area kind of that tri state area and back in the days. And from my understanding, there's going to be an article coming out from the Wildlife Society talking about what they've seen completed since they removed. Remove those horses from that area.

[Mike Axelrod]

Who removed those horses?

[Jenny Laciette]

Well, somebody went in there and said, you know, at this point we're going.

[Mike Axelrod]

To do an experiment, not an experiment.

[Jenny Laciette]

They noticed that the rangelands were being destroyed, so they just gathered them up.

[Mike Axelrod]

And moved them out.

[Jenny Laciette]

Well, originally there was, there was cattle grazing in there, multiple use. So they removed all the cows and still saw the trend going downhill, whether it's water, riparian areas, rangeland conditions and wildlife. I mean, obviously this was conservation area basically almost like a park. And so they removed all the cows, did all that, had the numbers on that, showed, you know, through science what the cows were doing when they were left unattended, basically kind of like the horses are today. And they really did not see a change in that. And folks came in, you know, old wildlife biologists, several other people, especially here in Nevada, got together and said, it's time to remove these horses. Well, they've they removed all the horses in there and within I want to say five to 10 years and I don't have those exact numbers but can.

[Mike Axelrod]

Definitely keep the horses from coming back in.

[Jenny Laciette]

Well, it's fenced area. All those areas are fenced off.

[Mike Axelrod]

High fenced. What is a whole stop jumper low fence?

[Jenny Laciette]

No, they're not like deer or lions. I can dump 20ft.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[Jenny Laciette]

The, they'll pretty much, you know, have respect for offense. But they will break it down.

[Mike Axelrod]

I mean but they'll unjump it.

[Jenny Laciette]

Some do.

[Mike Axelrod]

They won't jump it to get to better.

[Jenny Laciette]

No, it's not like deer, okay. It's not like deer or guzzlers or things like that.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's not so that that area is.

[Jenny Laciette]

Showing a tremendous improvement to it. And so you know, everybody's like, oh, you're just the deflections from these groups. It's the cow's fault. Oh, it's humans fault. Oh, it's, there's no fault. You know, they're, they're perfectly fine there, you know, and, and showing bare ground saying look how great this range looks because there's a sagebrush in it. They don't even understand the ecological impacts of that. So I don't care what grazing animal. There is one grazing animal out on our landscape today that is not at appropriate management levels and basically have all the tools but are constantly backed up by congress, budget dollars, lack of holding. And when I say lack of holding, these folks talking about horses. Horses. Yeah, we have. And I keep saying we. I'm not a we anymore. The Bureau of Land and Management, just one organization, not even talking. The Forest Service. The Bureau of land Management has 68,000 horses in 44 long term pastures and 29 corrals across the United States that nobody wants.

[Mike Axelrod]

68,000.

[Jenny Laciette]

68,000.

[Mike Axelrod]

And obviously in those pens they're breeding. No, no breeding.

[Jenny Laciette]

No. Once they're gathered, they're separated. They're separated by sex.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, but don't females come in pregnant?

[Jenny Laciette]

You just nailed a great point. Yes, they do. And that's something again nobody's talking about. Look, I'm going to tell you right now, these groups, I'm going to say 99 to 100% of them are all for abortion in humans. But they've literally tried come to a point where when we were wanted to test sterilizing mares, they were threatening a lawsuit. So they're against you having an abortion on a horse. So these mares come in, it's an 11 month gestation cycle. They come in pregnant, because the minute they give birth, they're pregnant, they're bred again, especially with the overpopulation now. So a great example, just in Nevada alone, we've got three what we call corrals, where that's where they're first brought in to be processed. You know, vaccine acclimated to natural, not natural hay, but domestic hay, check for diseases, all of that stuff.

[Mike Axelrod]

And then they get some sort of tag put on them.

[Jenny Laciette]

They get a freeze mark on their left side of their, their neck which basically says their age, their year, the next two digits. And it's symbols that are there that correlate to a number. So the next two symbols basically say what state they were caught in or processed in. Now it's, it's where the corral was at. And the last four numbers are basically a Social Security number. So no wild horse that's been captured has the same number or shouldn't. And the BLM actually has every single animal in their database since inception of captures. Okay, so back.

[Mike Axelrod]

So 68,000 currently in carousing pastures. That's almost equal to how many we have out on the range by itself.

[Jenny Laciette]

So 68,000. I'll put it to you this way. 68,000 is nearly three times what the appropriate management of wild horses on the range currently sits at across the entire range? Across the 10 Western states.

[Mike Axelrod]

10 Western states. You're supposed to only have 30,000 horses.

[Jenny Laciette]

25,565 as of today.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, and how many do we have across the range wild right now?

[Jenny Laciette]

Last March, every year the Bureau of Land Management does their public land statistics. Do flights work with USGS to calculate the numbers through, you know, very high end counting process. Kind of like wildlife. Of course, our deaths are a lot lower than wildlife research deaths, but we won't talk about that. But. So last March. We haven't gotten to our march numbers yet. They don't count foals. They're not part of the equation. Last March out on the range in the 10 Western states, there was about 73,000 horses estimated. It's always an estimate.

[Mike Axelrod]

Just on BLM land.

[Jenny Laciette]

Just on BLM line? Yep.

[Mike Axelrod]

What do we think a plus minus percentage is for including all other state lands, private lands and whatnot?

[Jenny Laciette]

I'm going to say you can easily add 30% to that.

[Mike Axelrod]

30%. Okay, so about 100,000.

[Jenny Laciette]

At least. At least.

[Mike Axelrod]

So 100,000 plus 68,000 plus whoever's still pregnant in the counted population on the landscape and the population that's in, you're probably looking at pushing 180.

[Jenny Laciette]

And I don't think, I think that's still being conservative. I mean, the National Academy of Sciences states over and over that BLM undercounts horses. They made one sentence in a report in 2013 that these groups have taken attached to. But on page 53 of the 2013 or 56 of the 2013 National Academy of Science reports, it clearly states BLM undercounts. So we say that attrition rate is about 20% in some areas it's 15, other areas it's 25. But on a national average it's about 20%. So you know, going back to how many foals in Nevada alone, there's three corrals that they bring in horses. And by May of last year, from what was gathered from the previous year, they had already dropped over 1500 foal just in those three corrals. Now remember, there's 29 of these corrals across the 10 Western states.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's an additional 30 pounds. Yeah, easy.

[Jenny Laciette]

And nobody talks about that. And literally as they're putting these horses through the corrals, which again, I mean, let's talk about humanity to these mares. And these are still considered wild horses that have never been out on the wild is foals born in the corrals. Their process, they get a freeze mark, everything else. But you know, let's look at those numbers and let's think about what is the logical solutions that we can talk about a compromise. You know, these groups don't compromise.

[Mike Axelrod]

Are you for removal of every single wild horse on the landscape?

[Jenny Laciette]

I personally am not. I think a lot of people at this point are because for 53 years we've been kicking the can down the road and now people are pissed.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, but for 53 years you told me you got pretty close.

[Jenny Laciette]

At one point, 2007, we're a thousand horses away and from the appropriate herd.

[Mike Axelrod]

Management size across the range, the 10.

[Jenny Laciette]

10 Western states, you're never going to have everyone at.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jenny Laciette]

You know, it's, it's going to fluctuate. But across.

[Mike Axelrod]

We were close and at that point it was just gathering. Right at that point there was no euthanization or.

[Jenny Laciette]

No, no, not except for the act of mercy or if they pass in the corrals for whatever the case might be. No, to date we have never, except at the very beginning, supposedly I don't have the documentation were they killing any horses. And I don't think even back then that there's any proof that, you know, it's crazy.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's so horses. The only other place in the world that deals with wild horses, well, they call them wild brumbies is Australia. And it's probably the most green anti. Whatever, like, place in the world.

[Jenny Laciette]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

More than here in Nevada. The government helicopter shoots horses in Australia. And the greens are for it. Well, the greens are there, like, okay, yeah. Because they're destroying this beautiful alpine habitat. So it's just like, holy smokes, guys. I guess people, there is an example here that says you've got too many bumbies on the range.

[Jenny Laciette]

Knock them down, and you've still got people fighting it. To a certain extent you do. But you.

[Mike Axelrod]

But you've also got people on the other side that are technically the same side here as in the States that are saying, don't do anything, that are saying, yes, yeah, we got to do something.

[Jenny Laciette]

We're behind the times when it comes to this. I mean, in my opinion, we should not be at this stage, but we have a new president or a new administration every four to eight years. And what happened in this case, that was during the Bush administration. And I'm going to tell you something else here. Our budget at that point was $29 million. And that's the entire BLM wild horse budget was $29 million.

[Mike Axelrod]

When was this?

[Jenny Laciette]

2007. 2007. We were 1,000 horses away at our count of being at appropriate management level. So if you do the simple math, that means all we had to do was gather 3,500 to 5,000 a year to keep it at appropriate management levels with a budget that was 29 to 38 million dollars. Right. Today, our budget last year, fiscal year, it's October 1st through the end of September. Fiscal year was over 141 million dollars. They spent more than that in expenditures in inappropriate ways. So 141 million. And now we're three times over, which. Look at that budget, 29 to 141 million. And now from say 29,000 horses on the range in 2007 to 73 and two years ago was 83,000, 81,000, something like that. You do that math, that simple math. And now instead of gathering 3,500 to 5,000 just to keep up with the full crop, you need to gather 20,000 horses.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, 20 to 30,000. Like we just talked about. Nuts.

[Jenny Laciette]

So let's talk about. You know, I would love Doge to hear this right now.

[Mike Axelrod]

Listen to me. It's. This is the same scenario we just talked of. I showed you pictures of Madikwe yesterday, supposed to only have 250 elephants in the reserve, has 1500 elephants. The reserve looks like a bomb's gone off. Just like here on your rain sense. Like looks like a bomb has gone off. There is only one solution there. Because listen to the parallels. You cannot give an elephant away for free in South Africa. An elephant. Nobody wants a free elephant. Nobody wants to hold it. Nobody wants to care for it. Nobody wants to handle it. Nobody wants to do anything with it. Sound familiar?

[Jenny Laciette]

Sounds real familiar. I mean, a horse isn't like a goldfish. You can't flush it down the toilet.

[Mike Axelrod]

There's only one solution. There's got to knock down 800 elephants.

[Jenny Laciette]

Yeah. And why in the world?

[Mike Axelrod]

And why can't we? Because, like horses, they're beautiful. Beautiful. Emotional, magnificent. I see myself in it. They're so intelligent. They've got a family. Exactly.

[Jenny Laciette]

Yeah. Well, so does. So does, you know, rice grass out on the range. You know, it is a living organism. It's got to have a family. I mean, look at how, you know, if it's in good condition, it grows. Right. So it's got a family. Think about, you know, the deer out on the range. Range and the elk and. And let's even talk about as low as bunnies and rabbits and everything.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, no, I think it's a broader conversation about biodiversity concept.

[Jenny Laciette]

It is biodiversity.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's it. And nobody. And at. At the Fish and Wildlife Service level, at the Bureau of Land Management level, at the Department of Interior level, I. If you had to push these guys, and I know they're political, but if you have to push them, like, what is your number one job? Your number one job probably should be biodiversity protection.

[Jenny Laciette]

Right? Right. Let's talk about those lands. Let's talk about the wildlife. Let's talk about those riparian areas. Let's put our money there and let's. I mean, I would love to see healthy horses on healthy rangelands, but guess what needs to come first?

[Mike Axelrod]

Management.

[Jenny Laciette]

Management. Exactly.

[Mike Axelrod]

Management. And it's not. That's the thing. Right. And again, again, I'm mixing things here. But no, same with wolves.

[Jenny Laciette]

Right, Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's. We are not in a position or a landscape where the. Politically, from a policy perspective, legally, we're not in a position, nor do we want to be in a position of taking animals back to extirpation or extinction.

[Jenny Laciette]

Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

Wolves. That's never going to happen. That's the whole rhetoric. Oh, my God. You turn over the state management of wolves to the states, they're going to extirpate the wolf.

[Jenny Laciette]

Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, we've got a perfect example of why that's not going to happen in Idaho. Idaho has 1200-1400 wolves a year. Population census, they knock down 400 wolves a year. They have every single method of take available to them and they cannot do it now, yet the population remains the same. Same thing's going to happen with horses. You're going to be able to go in, manage the range, knock down the herd to where they need to be, appropriate levels, and you maintain it. You've got the horses on the landscape. Everyone wants to see a horse on the landscape. You still got them. It's not like we're not taking them off.

[Jenny Laciette]

Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

We just need to look at the bigger picture. Step back a little second and go, you know, it's a case of essentially speciesism. That horse seems, you seem to be. Put that, putting that horse on a pedestal. Why aren't you putting the mule deer on a pedestal next to it? Or the gopher tortoise? You don't have gopher tortoises in the west, but you probably have some sort of.

[Jenny Laciette]

Sorry if there was a southeast down in the.

[Mike Axelrod]

A prairie dog or, you know, a butterfly that's endemic to a watershed. All of those things should be on the same pedestal. Everyone should be on the same level.

[Jenny Laciette]

Right, right. And I, and I agree with that, you know, and it's, it, it blows me away. I'm a horse lover. I've got three horses in my backyard and guess what? One of them has brand on his neck. So, you know, I'm constantly being told on social media in other areas, I'm a horse hater, et cetera. No, I'm a realist. And bottom line, this isn't about unicorns and rainbows. This is about, you know, not only their lives, but the lives in function. The ecological disaster that is currently happening. And I don't say that lightly, we are having an ecological disaster, especially here in Nevada. We've got rangelands that will never come back. They have completely destroyed and been overgrazed to the point of. And let me just throw out this example. People love the California trail right now. When did that happen? Over 150 years ago. But you can still see the tire marks from the wagons that came from the east. If people can't understand that that's the type of damage that these animals and their animals are doing at the range and everybody's put them on a pedestal. I mean, you see it all the time. You know, somebody might not be into hunting but if there's a deer or an elk in the back of somebody's truck, people aren't freaking out. Let's replace that with a horse. And people will be going ballistic. So, you know, the only thing I can give an example to is why is this animal so dear to so many people that 90% of them probably don't own a horse? But every little girl growing up wanted a pony and I think that's what it comes down to. And then you look at media and you look at Hollywood in those cases. You know, it is, it's, it, it is magnificent to see a small group of horses running across the landscape with their tails flowing in the wind. They look absolutely beautiful, wild and free. And, and the average person is really, you know, let's talk at the fourth grade educational level. You've got to speak to them in that level. They aren't wildlife biologists. They aren't, you know, plant specialists. They have one love the side side marks are on. They're in a box. And that's the horse. And there, there's so many people that refuse to have that hard discussion. And there's so many people that are making millions of dollars using those people. And in my. You, it's fraud. They're frauding people out of their hard earned money, making statements that this is for the animal when not a dollar is going back to those animals.

[Mike Axelrod]

Did you, what did you say to me yesterday? You said something along the lines of BLM was managing. What changed? Let me ask this because you said BLM was managing these animals effectively for 30 years.

[Jenny Laciette]

I wouldn't say effectively. I mean I've got these numbers within.

[Mike Axelrod]

But what happened? Because there seems to be an inflection point.

[Jenny Laciette]

It's all political and it's all emotional.

[Mike Axelrod]

Gone from 30, you know, semi good job. It's whatever you want to call it to. In five years it's gone like boom. Has it been five years or 10 years? More.

[Jenny Laciette]

More. Because what happened in 2007 when we were almost there, compared to then a new administration came in and again, these are tools being used. And when I say tools, it's tools by those groups that are constantly. They don't care. They're going to fight because they're making money. This is a fundraiser to them. They're making that money. So the new administration came in and stated we're only going to gather what we can adopt. At that time the adoption numbers were fairly low. Well, that right there falls right into the strategic plan of these groups. Well now we're going to tell everybody not to adopt horses because they're only going to gather how many horses are adopted. And when I say 20% increase every year, that population of horses will double within four to five years. So they'll double. So all of a sudden a new administration comes in. You know, I don't need to say that somebody. Go do your homework who the administration was. They come in, they're in for eight years doing nothing in that population level from 2007. And I'm going to tell it to you right now. In 2007, the population on the range was about 28,000, almost 600 horses.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[Jenny Laciette]

Okay. And so by the end of that administration. Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

How many horses?

[Jenny Laciette]

67,000.

[Mike Axelrod]

Doubled. Doubled.

[Jenny Laciette]

More than doubled.

[Mike Axelrod]

More than doubled.

[Jenny Laciette]

More than doubled. So that's what happens if you do nothing.

[Mike Axelrod]

All right, let me play devil's advocate. If your only option, or no, maybe not devil's advocate, I'll say this and then I'll say something else. If your only option was to gather.

[Jenny Laciette]

And that's only what we've been able.

[Mike Axelrod]

To do, and adopt over this timeframe, was it gathered based on adoptions during that administration?

[Jenny Laciette]

That was the behind the scenes.

[Mike Axelrod]

So hardly any gathering was happening.

[Jenny Laciette]

No gathering.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay. No gathering. But was the amendment in place at this time, Shall.

[Jenny Laciette]

Oh, yeah, that law's been in place.

[Mike Axelrod]

But that wouldn't make a difference if they weren't gathering in big numbers.

[Jenny Laciette]

You know, the complexities of this, you know, and I almost sound like. But, but, but, but these buts are real. They're not changing. They being Congress, this isn't a BLM issue. They're mandated to do this by the law, but they're mandated to do it within the realms of every year's appropriations. So back in the 1980s, Congress basically said, I don't care what the law says. The shall says in the law, you can't use government funds to euthanize a healthy horse. And what's a healthy horse to you? May not be a healthy horse to me. Where's those policies? Where are they that says what's healthy? And there is policies. The Euthanasian policy within the BLM and the Forest Service is stated in there, but it still comes down to a person making that decision. And let's talk, you know, political sensitivity and coverage. You know, nobody. Senator Burns is the one out of Montana. Yes, Senator Burns is the one that made the latest amendment to the act in 2008, and that was in 1333. Who cares what the number is? Where you mentioned it earlier. Any horse over the age of 10 or had been adopted three times is available for instant titling. And that's again, something that most horse don't. And that's where I'm getting at. Within the law and within policy, the government holds the title, just like you go and buy in a car. And having.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yep, yep, yep.

[Jenny Laciette]

Okay. They hold the title for a year to ensure that these horses are being humanely treated and aren't just being bought to go to slaughter. At that time, not until 2008, there were actual slaughter plants in the United States that we oversaw it. They were being humanely slaughtered, if you want to say slaughtered, but humanely used for commercial processing. We had that function to ensure that they weren't down in Mexico getting stabbed in the back with a knife to kill them. And these Annie's came in and I literally had a friend on the Congressional floor, I was still in D.C. at that time, that spent a year with the Library of Congress reviewing what laws, etc. And was working for a congressman. I'm not going to say who.

[Mike Axelrod]

He said, I think you told me the story. He said, yep, I'm going to vote in your direction. And voted the other way.

[Jenny Laciette]

Yep, exactly. That was.

[Mike Axelrod]

What did he say on the way out to your guy who said, what the fuck?

[Jenny Laciette]

He said, I got over 100,000 per se. I'm just throwing over 100,000 letters saying, vote to Stop the Slaughter act, and maybe 500 that said, don't worry about it, because those people at that time didn't have the effects. I mean, the number of bills that go through Congress. And he said, I've got to focus on my people and my people on the east coast don't want horses slaughtered because they utilize those words instead.

[Mike Axelrod]

You're making a point. The reason I'm saying that is that we as the hunting community, as the sustainable use community, have been way behind the eight ball when it comes to how we politically engage.

[Jenny Laciette]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's been like, oh, no, they'll see the logic in it, they'll see the common sense in it. They'll vote normally. And then you see their email inbox and it's a million emails form emails from a million people. And they're like, holy shit, I better listen.

[Jenny Laciette]

It's extravagant.

[Mike Axelrod]

Instead of a million emails from us saying, you need to do something.

[Jenny Laciette]

Yeah, well. And it's been there. I was able back in the days when I was in dc, got handed a large group and I'm not going to advertise any of these Groups, because to me, they're the devil. But a large group was able to see their strategy, their 20 year plan. Well, we're going to agree to this. And then when, when it looks like we're working with them, then we're going to sit there and throw holes in adoptions. Adoption is a great example. We're going to agree to euthanize in horses, you know, so, yes, I think we should euthanize some horses if they are, you know, out of an act of mercy. But wait a second, we're not going to euthanize them. You know, the way that you euthanize a wild animal and that's through lead poisoning, A bullet. Right. We're not going to allow that to happen because that's brutal. Instead, they have to euthanize it with a drug. So let's talk about ecological disasters. You euthanize it by a poisonous drug. Now you've got to deal with the Clean Water Act, Clean Air act, if you're going to burn them all of that stuff. These people aren't dumb in the business sense. They know how to fight it. And I'll tell you, I used to hate social media. There's times I still do, but guess what? It's done. All of a sudden, the people that are really affected by it are seeing it on social media and going, time out.

[Mike Axelrod]

Exactly. Yeah. Social media is obviously, it's a, it's a, it's a sword that cuts both ways.

[Jenny Laciette]

Yep.

[Mike Axelrod]

And people like, ah, we shouldn't be engaging social media. We shouldn't, we shouldn't. It's terrible. I'm like, yeah, you're right. But it also gives us a voice.

[Jenny Laciette]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And if we don't use it, if we don't use it as our tool.

[Jenny Laciette]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Are you. They're not gonna, they're not stopping. They're not stopping. They're gonna use it. So why don't we use it? Why don't we use it effectively?

[Jenny Laciette]

And in my opinion, they're starting to feel that pressure. And the difference is the hunters, the scientists, the conservationists who used to be on the other side are now going timeout too. They use science, very clear, not hardcore cancer treatment science. This is basic science. If a plant's not growing, why isn't it growing? Right. If there's no water and there was a water hole here, what happened to it? And you know, it stomped out. So. So the difference is we have true science on our side. Is this ever going to end? It's never going to end. But, but here's the fun.

[Mike Axelrod]

But I agree with you. It's basic science. Basic, super easy. Look what it used to look like. Look what it looks like today. Here, horse numbers. Here, mule deal numbers.

[Jenny Laciette]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Even though it's not causation. What do you think's happening?

[Jenny Laciette]

Yeah, yeah. Let's just give a basic look to it.

[Mike Axelrod]

Right.

[Jenny Laciette]

You said something earlier and I kind of jumped over it because we were talking about something else. You know, right now these groups are now starting to go against the hunters and saying you have to utilize everything that you do. Right, of course, yeah. Okay. And even in some of our great coalition meetings, you know, we're not all seeing 100% the same way. And you've got even hunters that are saying, okay, well, yeah, now I kind of see that side. You got to utilize everything. Why aren't they saying this about the horses?

[Mike Axelrod]

A damn good point.

[Jenny Laciette]

And I don't think we've even had.

[Mike Axelrod]

That discussion about the horse as much as you say you do. When we euthanize, we should use the meat, we should use the bones, we should use the organs, we should use it all as. Out of respect for that 100%.

[Jenny Laciette]

I don't think we've even had a conversation like that in any of our coalition meetings yet. But it. But I'm going to bring it up.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Jenny Laciette]

And. And, you know, some sorts of conversations have been had. But this is the point here is we have a scientific. Lots of scientific groups that way back when were pretty much spread further apart are now really coming closer and closer together and having these discussions because the effects are identical to it. And now is our opportunity to balance this playing field for everything. For the horses, for the wildlife, but mainly for our rangelands and our riparian areas, so that my grandkids don't have to go to a zoo to see an animal or go to a park to see green grass.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, 100%. Well, Jenny, I really appreciate you. I'm sure this isn't the last time that we will be speaking on this matter.

[Jenny Laciette]

Well, I hope not. I mean, honestly, it's time to get the word out. Right. It's more than time to get the word out. You know, we've got a group of people that, you know, are finally going to speak the other side.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Jenny Laciette]

And. And try to convince, you know, all the landlords across the United States that you can't have a law in place and think that you can, you know, implement that law by use of emotion. If you can't take a look at the scientific data and the basic scientific data because again, we're not all scientists, but the basics and realize that, yeah, in my lifetime, it's probably not going to be, you know, moonscaped. But if we continue on this path, my children aren't going to be able to enjoy the outdoors. They're not going to be able to go see this stuff. There won't be any horses left. There won't be. I can show you an area right now where it took three decades to get a bird nesting area for protected birds. Over 230 species used to nest in it. It took five years for a couple hundred horses to completely destroy it. And I'd love to take you out there and us take pictures of it. Me show you pictures of what it looked like because it's here in rural Reno area.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, it'd be great.

[Jenny Laciette]

Yeah. So thanks, Jen. So let's definitely have these conversations and I wish you luck. And I've got to tell you, thank you for having me on here. There's a lot of other people that.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, just start lining them up. We'll have each of them on.

[Jenny Laciette]

Let's do it.

[Mike Axelrod]

All right. Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening. As always, leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.