Episode 546 - John Ledger || A Blast From Robbie’s Past

Summary

Blood Origins: Episode 546 - John Ledger || A Blast From Robbie’s Past

Release Date: March 20, 2025
Host: Blood Origins Inc.

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Introduction

In Episode 546 of Blood Origins, host Mike Axelrod reconnects with John Ledger, a renowned figure in wildlife conservation in Southern Africa. This episode delves into Ledger's extensive experience, the evolution of conservation efforts, and the intricate balance between hunting and environmental preservation.

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Reconnecting with John Ledger

Mike Axelrod begins the conversation by reminiscing about his first encounter with John Ledger at the age of 14, highlighting the enduring connection they share thirty-two years later.

Mike Axelrod [02:05]: "John Ledger is a blast from the past of my upbringing."

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John Ledger’s Background and Early Career

John Ledger provides an insightful overview of his early life and career trajectory. Growing up on a farm, Ledger developed a deep connection with nature, evolving from a hunter-gatherer to a dedicated zoologist. His academic journey led him to Wits University, where he pursued a BSc Honors in Zoology.

John Ledger [16:40]: "I was born a long time ago. 80 years ago now. I grew up on a farm and became a hunter gatherer at an early age..."

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Wildlife Conservation in Southern Africa: Past and Present

Ledger discusses his pivotal role as the director of the Endangered Wildlife Trust (EWT) in South Africa for seventeen years. He reflects on the organization’s stance on hunting and how it intersected with conservation efforts.

John Ledger [31:34]: "Oh yes, absolutely we were and it didn't make us a lot of friends..."

Ledger emphasizes the complexities of supporting hunting as a conservation tool, especially amidst rising animal rights movements and political challenges.

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Challenges in Modern Conservation: Elephant Overpopulation and Poaching

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the elephant overpopulation crisis in the Kruger National Park and other reserves. Ledger articulates the dire consequences of unchecked elephant populations, including habitat destruction and threats to other species like vultures.

John Ledger [32:38]: "...any culling operation now to reduce numbers is going to be an elephant massacre of unbelievable."

He highlights the insufficient governmental response and the escalating environmental impact, expressing concern over the future of biodiversity in the region.

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Success Stories: Namibia’s Approach

Ledger lauds Namibia for its successful wildlife management strategies, which balance hunting, tourism, and conservation. He contrasts Namibia’s proactive measures with the struggles faced in South Africa, underscoring the importance of effective resource management and community involvement.

John Ledger [46:16]: "It's a classic example of a success story of conservation where hunting... works perfectly well alongside photographic safaris and tourism."

This section underscores Namibia's integrated approach, demonstrating how sustainable hunting can coexist with robust conservation efforts.

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Future of Biodiversity and Conservation Strategies

Looking ahead, Ledger expresses skepticism about current policies and leadership in South Africa, fearing that without proper management and support, the region's biodiversity is at risk. He advocates for valuing and utilizing wildlife as foundational to conservation, arguing that economic incentives are essential for sustainability.

John Ledger [37:49]: "Government has come out with this policy where they've seen what the private sector has done with their wildlife...I fear that there will be a political and social kind of drive to take over existing wildlife areas..."

Ledger calls for a balanced approach that recognizes the economic benefits of wildlife, questioning whether political structures can adapt to support effective conservation.

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Personal Anecdotes and Recollections

Throughout the episode, Ledger shares vivid personal stories that illustrate the challenges and triumphs of his conservation work. From tracking down individuals with leishmaniasis to managing wildlife reserves under tumultuous conditions, these narratives provide a humanizing glimpse into the complexities of wildlife conservation.

John Ledger [12:13]: "Yes, they do. And they get these lesions, and what usually happens is it looks like skin cancer."

These anecdotes not only enrich the conversation but also highlight the interconnectedness of human health and wildlife management.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Mike Axelrod and John Ledger wrap up the episode by reflecting on the importance of maintaining connections and sharing knowledge in the conservation community. Ledger emphasizes the need for continued dialogue and collaboration to address the pressing environmental challenges facing Southern Africa.

Mike Axelrod [46:48]: "If you can't use your wildlife, the land is taken over by the cow and the plow."

The episode concludes with a mutual commitment to advancing conservation efforts and fostering a deeper understanding of sustainable hunting practices.

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Notable Quotes

• Mike Axelrod [02:36]: "There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be..."

• John Ledger [31:34]: "Oh yes, absolutely we were and it didn't make us a lot of friends."

• John Ledger [32:38]: "...any culling operation now to reduce numbers is going to be an elephant massacre of unbelievable."

• John Ledger [37:49]: "Government has come out with this policy where they've seen what the private sector has done with their wildlife..."

• Mike Axelrod [46:48]: "If you can't use your wildlife, the land is taken over by the cow and the plow."

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Final Thoughts

Episode 546 of Blood Origins offers a profound exploration of wildlife conservation through the lens of John Ledger’s extensive experience. It underscores the intricate balance between hunting, economic incentives, and environmental stewardship, urging listeners to consider the multifaceted approaches necessary for sustainable conservation.

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Transcript

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[Mike Axelrod]

FishingBooker Fishing trips made Easy John Leger John Ledger is a blast from the past of my upbringing. I met John when I was 14 years old and this is the second time that I've met John Ledger 32 years later. John was the director of EWT, the endangered wildlife Trust in South Africa at the time. He he ran it for 17 years. EWT, the endangered wildlife Trust today, is a very different organization as you'll hear John speak about. I asked John about his perceptions and thoughts of wildlife then as the EWT director and he doesn't talk about it, but he notes afterwards once we hung up that EWT is a very different organization today, unfortunately. But this is a blast from the past and we talk about my history, how we met, and then I just get John's thoughts. John's a stalwart of wildlife conservation in South Africa and it's a super interesting piece that if you're interested in understanding the value of wildlife in Southern Africa and planting seeds so that you can communicate about wildlife, this is a podcast for you. So enjoy. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins, and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting. It brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals. How do I start it?

[Brittany]

Brittany My name.

[John Ledger]

Does my hair look okay?

[Mike Axelrod]

My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be, and a feminist that works for a nonprofit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter. Well, we finally made it, didn't we?

[John Ledger]

Yeah. I'm sorry about the mess up last time. I couldn't get my head around the technology.

[Mike Axelrod]

John Ledger, the last time I saw you was. I'm 46 now. I was 14 then. 32 years ago, I still remember, correct me if I'm wrong here, EWT's office was in the Joburg Zoo.

[John Ledger]

Yes, correct.

[Mike Axelrod]

And you had to come in the back. Remember coming in the back? And my father was with me and little did I know as a 14 year old he was like, you know, John and I, and we can get into all of this. I just want to set the background here. Yeah, it's all about who you know in this world.

[John Ledger]

True.

[Mike Axelrod]

And you don't know, you know, the relationships that you make when you're at university or school or anything like that. And I walked in and he walked me in and your office was way in the back of the building because you were the big chief in charge and oh man, now we are, you know, 32 years later and I saw your name in a magazine. What did we say it was? The African Hunting Gazette.

[John Ledger]

African Hunting Gazette. Yeah, that's correct.

[Mike Axelrod]

The magazine was on my chair as I attended nafa, the Namibian association of Professional Hunters. And I sort of just. You know how you don't really pay attention in the beginning? You're just like. And I was just going through the magazine and I was like, oh, I recognize that name. And I was like, man, I want to. I wish, I wonder if I can get a hold of him. And there was your email.

[John Ledger]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And here we are.

[John Ledger]

There you go. No, it's a, it's a wonderful magazine. It's published by a friend of mine, Richard Lindrum, and it's published in South Africa and the usa. And I hope that a lot of your friends and associates actually read the magazine.

[Mike Axelrod]

I actually sat at a dinner table with Richard Lindrum last Tuesday.

[John Ledger]

Oh, you're kidding. You're kidding. Where was that? At Safari Club.

[Mike Axelrod]

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[John Ledger]

Wow.

[Mike Axelrod]

And Deneen van der Westhuizen from Namibia. And Gbert, her husband.

[John Ledger]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's a small world, John.

[John Ledger]

Wonderful. So, you know, Namibia is really one of my favorite places. And you've just been out there?

[Mike Axelrod]

I was there for. I honestly, I've never actually explored Namibia. Unfortunately. I've been to Namibia twice now and both times I've been confined to the 20 kilometer radius around Windhoek, tied to the Professional Hunters Association. But hopefully this year in November, I've got some friends now that have asked me, you know, please take a little couple of extra days and come visit us and see our wonderful country.

[John Ledger]

Yeah. I first went up there in 1972. Can you believe that?

[Mike Axelrod]

Amazing.

[John Ledger]

It was in the days when I was working as a medical entomologist and we picked up an insect borne disease that had never ever been found in southern Africa. And that started me going to Namibia in pursuit of this strange disease of humans, which is transmitted by tiny little sand flies.

[Mike Axelrod]

What was that?

[John Ledger]

It's called leishmaniasis.

[Mike Axelrod]

And it's still around today?

[John Ledger]

Yeah, it's still around. You get two forms. The one is a dermal infection which is sort of self limiting and not life threatening, but the other one is it destroys the palate. And you get it in South America where it's quite a dangerous disease. I've forgotten what the common name is in South America.

[Mike Axelrod]

Destroys the palate in terms of taste and smell or just the tissue?

[John Ledger]

No, the soft palate. The tissue. It destroys the tissue and eventually, you know, the whole nasal passage collapses and it's fatal. So it's quite a nasty thing. And what was amazing was it's a zoonosis, it's transmitted between animals and humans. And in Ethiopia they discovered that the hyraxes, you know, the dassies, they are the natural host of leishmaniasis, which affects humans in Ethiopia. And we actually then pursued a project. A friend of mine, Johan Lensing, was working for the nature conservation people in Namibia and he was working on dassies and he was actually sampling large numbers to see what they were eating. And we joined into his work and took tissue samples from these animals and we actually found it and we got cultures going in the London School of Tropical Medicine and the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine. But the amazing thing was that the strain in humans in Namibia is not the same strain as you get in the dassies. So the mystery continues and I moved on and so some Sherlock entomologist.

[Mike Axelrod]

So how does it. Is it still. Do people still fall victim, do you think, today to through sandfly biting?

[John Ledger]

Yes, they do. And they get these lesions, and what usually happens is it looks like skin cancer. So they normally would go to a dermatologist who would cut the thing out and send it for pathology, and then they diagnose it. But once the lesion is surgically removed, that's the end of it. But the locals also get it. And I found a guy who worked on a farm, and they put him in hospital in Windhoek, but he wasn't very happy there, so he absconded and he disappeared to his village in Ovamba land, as we called it in those days, Nakoneni Province. And it was December 1972. There was a drought in Namibia. I've never been so hot in my life. My accommodation was a corrugated iron shack that was used by the health department. And we tracked this guy down. But we went from village to village looking for this guy. And each place we had to meet the headman and go and pay our respects. And he would offer us a warm cook, a beer from Angola. So after traveling through this hot Namibian countryside, drinking warm beer after warm beer, who eventually, eventually found this guy. And I got photographs of his lesion, which was really quite spectacular. And it's subsequently being used in medical textbooks around the world as little did.

[Mike Axelrod]

People know that you were five beers deep when you took the photograph.

[John Ledger]

Exactly. And I mean, you know, those were quite tense times because the liberation war was on the go in Namibia. And I stayed at Ashikongo, which was the border post with Angola, and Swapo had actually dropped a couple of mortar bombs onto the local police station, which was just up the road from me. So it was all sandbagged and everything like that. And. Yeah, and, you know, it was fairly relaxed at the time. Nobody thought that this was any big deal, but, of course, it escalated into a major war which many people were killed. It involved Cuban and East German troops, and eventually they put in MIGs and had superior air power there. And the South African Defense Force and our air force was overwhelmed. And then, of course, they had peace talks and Namibia eventually gained its independence in 1990. But we had worked there for the five years before that with Garth Owen Smith and his wonderful project and Robbie, I don't know if you've come across Garth's book, which is called An Arid Eden.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, I haven't.

[John Ledger]

I'll look it up. Put that on your reading list.

[Mike Axelrod]

I actually just got into the. In the mail. Have you heard of a month of sun or Something like that. By Ian Nations.

[John Ledger]

No, I haven't.

[Mike Axelrod]

An elephant book. I'll tell you exactly what the title of the book is. Was Recommended to Me by Richard Saury, the Pufuri Ranger. I think you'd love it. Here, I'll get you the name of it right now. Months of the Sun. Ian nations in. Nations is spelled N, Y, S, C, H, E, N, S.

[John Ledger]

Okay, okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

So you said arid Eden. Hey, arid Eden.

[John Ledger]

Arid Eden. You know, it's on my bookshelf. I can see it from here. But it's a wonderful account by a wonderful guy who unfortunately is no longer with us.

[Mike Axelrod]

But is Norman Owen Swift still with us?

[John Ledger]

Yes. Norman's his brother.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. Norman was my professor. One of my professors at Wits.

[John Ledger]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. How about that man? Well.

[Mike Axelrod]

John, introduce yourself. We've been talking for ten and a half minutes because we've been reminiscing, but. John Ledger, please introduce yourself. Who are you? What were you? What did you do? What do you do now?

[John Ledger]

Okay. I was born a long time ago. 80 years ago now. I grew up on a farm and became a hunter gatherer at an early age, using the catapult and stones as our firearms. We had rules, of course. What you killed, you ate. And we quickly learned what was edible and what was not edible. So I grew up on the farm and we were driving tractors when we were 14 years old and running wild barefoot in the veld. Then I was sent to boarding school in Pottstrom. Boys High school, a very good school. And there I got into egg collecting and then bird reing. So from an early age I was a hunter gatherer and a bird watcher and then a bird ringer. And then I didn't really know what I wanted to do, except I wanted to do something around animals and zoology. And I ended up at Wits University where I did a BSc honors.

[Mike Axelrod]

Now, I need to understand. I'm going to stop the story right now because I don't think I was ever told and. Or maybe I was, but I completely dis, you know, dismissed it. How did you meet my father at Vitz?

[John Ledger]

That I don't know. I really. I was scratching my brain and trying to remember, but I don't know because.

[Mike Axelrod]

He was in engineering. He was in mining engineering.

[John Ledger]

Was he in. Oh, you know, I might have met him when I went to wits. I was in the Cottesloe residence for two years, and then I was moved to Men's Residence because they sold the Cottesloe residence. Oh, would I have met your dad at wits?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[John Ledger]

Maybe at Wits.

[Mike Axelrod]

Maybe absolutely at wits. That's what I remember him saying that he went to university with you.

[John Ledger]

And I wonder if he was at Cottesloe, because, you know, I was an odd man out. All the guys at Cottesloe were sort of engineers and mining engineers and so on.

[Mike Axelrod]

There it is.

[John Ledger]

I was doing biology, so. Yeah, yeah, I might have. I might have met him there. You know, I was trying to think whether I only met him later in Mozambique. But.

[Mike Axelrod]

You might have. But. But he was in Mozambique. He was. He wasn't in the wildlife world at all in Mozambique.

[John Ledger]

No. But wasn't he hunting in Mozambique?

[Mike Axelrod]

No, no. Well, my grandfather was. Post revolution. Nothing like. No, there was no even. They were all in the trading business. Import trading. I think it was. I think it was probably a residence thing. And you probably don't remember. And he probably doesn't remember either. Probably, you know, big party buddies and you guys just went drinking all the time, you know.

[John Ledger]

Whoa, I tell you so much. So much beer between then and now, you cannot believe it. And. And those guys at Cottesloe were wild because it was a residence that was set up for ex servicemen. And so when these guys came back from the war, they'd been killing Germans and Italians and other people, and you couldn't very well tell these guys what to do. So Kotosla had no rules. The only rule was that if a lady spent the night in your room, you. You weren't allowed to put her shoes outside the door with yours to be cleaned by the guy who cleaned shoes.

[Mike Axelrod]

That was funny. What a rule. What a rule.

[John Ledger]

So it was a wild place. And a lot of the guys had been on the mines for a couple of years, and then they got bursaries to come and do mining engineering, but they'd made enough money, so a lot of them had sports cars, MGs and Morgans and things like that.

[Mike Axelrod]

My dad had a Porsche.

[John Ledger]

Oh, Jesus. Hey, he must have did down all right.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, he bought two Porsches, I remember, and he wrecked one of them in Mozambique and then went back to Germany.

[John Ledger]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And him and his buddy Alistair Moya from Leidenberg decided they went to the German. To the factory to pick it up. And the German factory goes, no, it's not ready yet. Come back later this afternoon. And to the theme of this podcast, Alistair and him went to the local brewery and got absolutely tanked to the nines. Came back and they're like, oh, here are the keys to your car. Thank you very much, sir.

[John Ledger]

Can you believe it? And you know, those Guys, there was a famous pub in Bromfontein called the Devonshire Hotel. The guys used to go there and get full of beer and then race back to coro with the MGs. And there was a way to go under Empire Road, but there was only room for one car. So the number of MGs that ended up kind of squeezed into the single line, Empire Road. And the one year it snowed in Cottestone and we all went out and threw snowballs at the cars and some guy was driving to work with his window open. He got a snowball in the face and crashed into the car in front of him. And they came after us for damages.

[Mike Axelrod]

Man, wild times, wild times. You got a Bachelor of Science in Biology out of it?

[John Ledger]

Yes, I did a BSc Honors with Zoology as my major. And the project that I did was an entomology project up at the Zebadilla Citrus estate. And strangely enough, I worked for a wonderful man at the Department of Agriculture. And he said, you come and work for me and I will organize a bursary for you to go to study at the place, which is the world leading institute on biological control of citrus pests, which is a University of California at Riverside. So when I saw Riverside Studios, I thought, hey, hey. I nearly ended up at Riverside University, but that fell through because they wouldn't employ me because I had a zoology degree, not an entomology degree. And then I went, I needed a job. So I walked up the road to the Medical Research Institute Institute. And there I got a job with. My boss was a German who'd been an entomologist during World War II. And after the war the Allies were allowed to go and choose from amongst the German scientists who they wanted to offer to relocate to the Allied countries. So the Americans got Werner von Braun and my uncle was actually the director of the Medical Research Institute. And he got a guy called Fritz Sund, who was from the Hamburg Institute for Tropical Medicine. And he was my boss at Medical Research and he was a Prussian of note and he had a very thick German accent, which he never lost in all the years that I worked for him. But he was a very strict boss. And so I worked there for 18 years. Eventually I took over from Zumt as head of department. But what was fascinating was we were working on the parasites of wild birds and mammals because it was a period in medical history when people were exploring the zoonotic diseases which are transmitted from animals and birds to humans. And so we used to go to the Kruger park when they were culling elephants. And we used to climb into those elephant carcasses looking for parasites. And, you know, they get bot flies, elephant bot flies. But that was a very early introduction and Zumd himself got permits. We used to shoot animals in the Kruger park to see what parasites they had on them. And it was an amazing time.

[Mike Axelrod]

Different time, yeah.

[John Ledger]

Just about everything we touched was new. I was describing new species of parasites. Zumt was describing new fleas and flies and bugs of one kind or another. And, you know, it was astonishing that the one time we were amongst all these elephant carcasses and Zumt stuck his finger in an elephant's ear and pulled out a glob of wax and put it into a test tube with alcohol and took it back to the lab and discovered a new species of mite that lives inside the earwax of the elephants. Unbelievable. It was amazing. Everything we looked at was like new to science. Jeez. And so that was an early introduction to wildlife and working with the Kruger park staff. Tol Pinar was the director of the Kruger national park at the time. We worked with Dr. Eddie Young, who was the vet. And these were all pioneering people at the time. And then after 18 years at medical research, in the meantime, I got very much involved with vultures and my friend. That's right, yeah, Peter Mundy and I started the Vulture study group in 1973. So while I was working in medical research, I got deeply involved with vultures and vulture work and we were adopted by the Endangered Wildlife Trust as a working group. We met Clive Walker and we took him out to the Mahaliesburg and got him up on the cliffs with the vultures. And he came back and met with the board of, of the EWT and he said, look, I nearly died at the weekend. I went out with some weird guys and they took me up this bloody cliff and they're out of their minds, but I think they're very keen and we should support them. And so we became a working group of the Endangered Wildlife Trust and I ended up taking over from Clive and I was director of the Endangered wildlife trust for 17 years.

[Mike Axelrod]

So, John, that's obviously when I met you. You were the big chief in charge and you gave this 14 year old boy an opportunity. Because my grandparents lived in Maputu at the time and I was going down for Christmas break and my parents are like, they needed, Robbie needs to do something. And hey, John, will you coordinate Robbie to go? I think I could even find pictures. I may even try and find some pictures. Wow. Of Robbie to go help The Mozambique Zoo. For two weeks, every day, I'd show up at the Mozambique Zoo. And I still remember today, like I can. There was a hippo at the Mozambique Zoo.

[John Ledger]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And his name was Maraquin.

[John Ledger]

Maraquin. And he used to eat peanuts.

[Mike Axelrod]

Used to eat peanuts. Used to eat everything. But if you could call him, he would be in his pool.

[John Ledger]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

It was a tiny pen, right. And this is, you know, 19. I don't even know what this is. 1980, early 90s. I don't know. And he'd come out of his pen and he'd come and he'd put his head on, like that's how close you get to the animals. He'd put his head on the little fence, right. And you could rub his nose and he, you know, you'd get all this mucus on your hands. You'd open his mouth, you could grab his tusk and then if he turned around, the guy was like, you need to get out the way, because he did fire. It was. He let go.

[John Ledger]

It was incredible. And Helena Nicolau was the lady who ran the Maputa Zoo association and she worked for the manager of the Polana Hotel. That's right.

[Mike Axelrod]

We would go to the Polana and get all their old meats and old fruits and vegetables.

[John Ledger]

Right. No, we got involved in the zoo because, you know, the animals got into a terrible state because the guys running the zoo, they were taking the meat that was meant for the carnivores and the grounds were supposed to be used for growing food for the animals. But these guys were growing flowers. And why were they growing flowers? Because in Mozambique, being a Catholic country, a big thing is to go on a Sunday with flowers to the grave. And so these guys were in the flower business and they weren't feeding the animals. So things got into quite a mess there.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, it was amazing. John, let me just sort of spin towards today. You obviously are in very still attuned to wildlife conservation issues today. I'd love your opinion on what's changed. You were head of EWT for 17 years. Are we still dealing with the same issues now 30 years later, or are they different?

[John Ledger]

Look, a number of things have changed and they're different in South Africa to elsewhere. Mozambique, I think, has followed a unique path. Namibia has followed a unique path and a very wonderful path because of the work done by Garth Owen Smith and Margie Jacobson and their community conservation, which was immediately taken on by the new government because it was a very community and people orientated policy and philosophy of nature conservation. The big thing that happened in South Africa was private ownership of wildlife because vast tracts of land were and still are owned by private people. And many people that were farming with cattle and domestic animals changed over to wildlife and wildlife. Breeding and wildlife game sales and hunting became a major land use. And as the Endangered Wildlife Trust was into biodiversity conservation, this was something that we really thought was a good idea because if you can keep the land in a state where it supports wild animals which can be used for hunting and sustainable use or whatever you maintaining of the biodiversity which is in all the traffic levels below those carnivores and herbivores and nothing much.

[Mike Axelrod]

EWT would have EWT at the time come out pro hunting?

[John Ledger]

Oh yes, absolutely we were and it didn't make us a lot of friends. And even back then. Well, even though back then it was still good. But the animal rights movement was, was getting going and there was all sorts of controversy around elephant culling and I got the EWT into a lot of trouble for supporting elephant culling and all that sort of stuff and we lost a lot of members. But so the animal rights movement has picked up enormously in the last 30 years. I would say 20 to 30 years to the extent that no government now wants to lay hands on elephants. We are sitting with an elephant overpopulation crisis in the Kruger National Park.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, I would say writ large across South Africa. You can't give an elephant away today.

[John Ledger]

No, you can't.

[Mike Axelrod]

Nobody want an elephant.

[John Ledger]

You can't. And now the knock on effect is endangered Wildlife Trust is still working on vultures. Andre Botha is a world famous vulture guy and what they're finding now is that the elephants are knocking down the nesting trees in the Kruger national park so that the vultures are really threatened. And pretty soon we won't have any vultures or other large raptors breeding in the Kruger park because there aren't any more suitable nesting trees. So it's a real crisis. And then you've, you've got smaller reserves like Madikwe.

[Mike Axelrod]

Looks like a bomb has gone off in the.

[John Ledger]

It looks like a bomb has gone off. They've got a huge, over 350elephants in that little pond.

[Mike Axelrod]

So the ecological assessment says you're supposed to only have 250. This is going to. Don't have a heart attack when I tell you this. They have over 1500 elephants right now.

[John Ledger]

Oh goodness. You know, and then Valchefonden, the same thing, they moved elephants up there and then De Beers, their place up at, I forget the name also became overpopulated. And because the Oppenheimers have got a hell of a lot of money, they shipped all those elephants out to Mozambique, so they avoided having to face the issue of having to cull them. So, yeah, and Botswana's got elephants everywhere, Zimbabwe's got elephants everywhere. And it really, it's getting to a crisis now and it's reached the stage now where, as somebody said to me, the toothpaste is out of the tube and you can't get it back because any culling operation now to reduce numbers is going to be an elephant massacre of. Unbelievable.

[Mike Axelrod]

Using Mediwe as an example, there really is only one solution in Mediquia. It's either Mother Nature is going to take care of it in an extraordinary way, I. E. A thousand die through disease, but then you're going to have knock on effects. Buffalo are going to die, rhino are going to die, kudu are going to die, everyone's going to die. Or go in there and knock down 900 elephants.

[John Ledger]

Yeah, yeah. Now, I'm afraid that because of the politics and because the politicians have no guts and the conservationists are subjected to the political will of the day, we're going to see the environment destroyed and the elephants die in large numbers. In the Kruger park, there'll be a huge outcry. The do gooders will want to feed them and water them and take them home. And I say you're welcome, take them back to your park in New York and look after them. We've got plenty. You can have as many elephants as you want. But regrettably, the loser in all of this is going to be the biodiversity. First of all, the big trees, the vulture nesting and raptor nesting trees, the baobabs are taking a knock everywhere. People are now protecting baobabs by putting wire netting around them and putting sharp stones around the bases of the trees. So, you know, they're treating all the symptoms of elephant overpopulation.

[Mike Axelrod]

Whereas if one, it could be such an economic boom. Right, the amount of economic boom.

[John Ledger]

Yeah. The value in protein and exports and ivory and elephant leather. I mean, it is an economic opportunity and we've got people that are virtually starving on the borders of the Kruger national park. And it's a terrible situation and I don't see any end to it. I just foresee that we've had some rain now and it might rain for a few years, but then we'll get another drought and by then the elephant numbers will be up again and as you say, Mother Nature will kill those elephants. All of the value of the elephants, the ivory, the leather, the meat, the byproducts will simply go to waste. On the bright side, it should be a good year for vultures.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah. You got to look at something, right? You gotta look at some bright side. John, have you. I'm sure you've looked at Nemba and the new biodiversity manifesto. That's one probably the. I think it's the article that I actually read in the African Hunting Gazette.

[John Ledger]

Hunting Gazette, Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Talk to me about the biodiversity and the future of biodiversity. In your opinion, as we move into the next, say, 10 years, what are the things that we need to do?

[John Ledger]

Well, you know, government has come out with this policy where they've seen what the private sector has done with their wildlife, how they've monetized wildlife, and they want to try and do that throughout the country and in particular areas which used to be called the homelands, where many black South Africans live. And the dream there is to do tourism and hunting in areas which haven't been used for those purposes before. What I fear is that we've just had some legislation passed which allows for property to be confiscated without compensation. And my fear is that there will be a political and social kind of drive to take over existing wildlife areas which are well managed and put them in the hands of local people who possibly don't have the right kind of background to manage the resource as it should be. I may be wrong, and I hope that I'm not. But we will have to see what happens. We've got a new Minister of Environment. He comes from the Democratic alliance, but he has no background in conservation. And from his utterances so far, I don't hold out a lot of hope that he's going to be able to care much for biodiversity. You know, the way that the rhinos have been taken out of our parks, and particularly the decline of the provincial parks such as the former Natal parks, KZN Izemvello, the people that are running those provincial nature reserves now, really, they don't have resources. They don't. They're not able to control poaching. The resources are being destroyed under their noses. Ndumu Game Reserve, which was one of the really beautiful bird and biodiversity spots in southern Africa. The borders, fences have been taken down. Hippo poaching and destruction of fever trees and encroachment by small scale agricultural, agricultural guys is slowly eating away at the borders of Nduma Game Reserve. And I can see no good coming out of that. On the other hand, when I see what's happened to the Maputo Elephant Reserve. And from what I've read, and I haven't seen anything the last two. I think two years ago I went and had a good look there and the Peace Parks foundation managed to put together a big pile of money. They've got the Maputo national park now. They've got camps there which look wonderful, they look excellent. And I hadn't been to Mozambique for ages and I don't really know what's going on on the ground, but if you look at the Peace Parks website, it would seem as if they've established a very nice protected area where the Maputo Elephant Reserve was and that whole coast, Ponte de Oro northwards. I mean, it's a gem of a coastline. It's absolutely.

[Mike Axelrod]

I think the key that you said is that it's a gem and they've done an amazing job because they have resources.

[John Ledger]

Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

And could you imagine what KZN in Zimvela would be able to do if they were allowed to, say, auction off one black rhino to be hunted in Shishlu?

[John Ledger]

Precisely.

[Mike Axelrod]

It would bring, it would bring $300,000 easy, easily. That would fund the entire protection of that entire reserve for rhinos for the year.

[John Ledger]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And I don't know if you can recall the, the outcry that there was when Pilandsberg we, we were quite in EWT is quite involved with Pilandsburg. We had two Danish researchers there, Anna Lindemann and Hans Hansen. I don't know if he ever came across them, but that they, they worked on the rhinos of Pilandsberg and they, that, you know, they knew, they knew every single rhino, they knew its age. And there was this old male, I've forgotten his name, but he was done for. He'd sired many, many calves and they wanted to put him up for hunting. And there was an outcry and this, that and the next thing. Eventually he died and was eaten by the vultures. And then another one came up and the same thing. Big efforts to try and get permits and a big fight with the animal rights people. Oh, you can't hunt an endangered species like a rhino. Never mind the actual details of the rhino. The animal itself, old, buggered, threatened by younger males and eventually that one was killed by a young male. And again, all the hunting fees and the, the trophy fees and the hunting licenses and everything that have could have gone towards the running of that park just went up in smoke. The vultures ate the bloody Rona. So I'm afraid that this kind of, I Regard it as madness. It's in the same league as Richard Leakey burning ivory and rhino horns. It is wanton destruction of valuable resources which makes no sense whatsoever. And I cannot believe that, particularly in South Africa, we don't have the kind of attitude that Namibia has towards our wildlife. And you know, Namibia is a classic example of a success story of conservation where hunting, either trophy hunting or subsistence hunting, works perfectly well alongside photographic safaris and tourism. And the way the Namibians are managing their lions, for example, they know that lions attract tourists and so they manage their lions so that there are enough lions for the tourists to see. But they manage their lions so that the lions aren't killing the locals livestock and they, they control those lion numbers. It doesn't hit the headlines, of course, it's not supposed to, but everything is very carefully managed. All the prides are colored there. They have a beautiful satellite system. They have cell phone communication with the local farmers. They have a system whereby transponder collared lions, when they approach a village with his livestock, start sending off a signal to the people in the village. And as the lion gets closer, so you've got solar lights come on and a siren goes on, all done automatically through transponders and electronics. And eventually, you know, when, when the lion is within a couple of kilometers of the livestock, the guy can go out and, and shoot it if necessary if it's a threat to his wildlife. But they're managing to, to, to balance their, their tourism with their healthy wildlife populations with an offtake of trophies and of meat and subsistence hunting. That is a wonderful example to everybody else. Of course, the caveat is that Namibia still has a very low human population and the numbers are gray, but it shows what can be done and I don't see why it can't be done elsewhere in Africa.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, I agree. I totally agree. I think if you had asked me the same question. To me, value and use of wildlife is the only way that we are going to keep wildlife around in a booming population of humans in the next 20 to 50 years. The pressures on the wildlife, the pressures on habitat are just going to get greater and greater and greater and greater. And the thing that is valued the most is going to come out on top.

[John Ledger]

Exactly. And you know, there's the famous thing about the. If, if you can't use your wildlife, the land is taken over by the cow and the plow.

[Mike Axelrod]

Correct? Correct. John Leger, you are amazing. I can't believe that we reconnected. Please. I'd love to stay in touch with you. I'll try and get your. I'll get your cell phone number after we get off here and we can stay connected. I definitely think you should write up that funny story of you chasing down a lesioned Namibian whilst drinking warm beer from village to village. I think that would be hilarious. But if there's anything else, if there's anything I can do for you like you did for me when I was 14 years old, please don't hesitate to ask.

[John Ledger]

Well, that's wonderful. And you know, we. In fact, I first went to Mozambique when I was 14. My parents had bought a farm in Swaziland and you could do a day trip to Lorenzo Marx from Malkerns where the farm was in Swaziland. So when I was 14, I first went through to Lorenzo Marques and ate prawns and it was just amazing.

[Mike Axelrod]

And you probably ate prawns at Costa del Sol. And Costa del Sol is still there today.

[John Ledger]

Oh, yeah, yeah, no, it still is. I don't think we went out to Costa de Sol. There was another place down near the Fera, near the yachts, where the yacht basin was and we used to go there. But yeah, regrettably there's trouble in Mozambique at the moment. There's political trouble. You've probably seen it on your headlines.

[Mike Axelrod]

I hear there's some good talks. The political talks are happening because.

[John Ledger]

Let's hope so, because the new president, Daniel Chapo, apparently he was at university with Mondlani, who's the guy challenging him. And so they know each other, but they're rivals. And Mandlani reckons the election was rigged, which it probably was. And yeah, we've got a lot of Mozambicans in South Africa and people are very concerned. But let's hope they come out of it because, you know, there's some wonderful wildlife areas in Mozambique. And the other thing that Mozambique has got is incredible gas resources and fossil fuel resources which are key to the prosperity of Mozambique. The problem is that the ruling elites, as so often happens with your freedom fighters, the ruling elites have been stealing all the money as they did in Angola with the Desantos family and the rich families in Mozambique. They've been caught out buying valuable properties in South Africa or their children been buying multi million rand properties in Joburg and Cape Town. And people like Mondlani and ordinary Mozambicans are sick and tired of that and they won't change. So hopefully something will happen.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah. John, appreciate you a lot, man. I'm glad we connected and can't wait till next time we connect.

[John Ledger]

Lovely. I'm glad you made it and made the connection and let's keep in touch. Thank you so much.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, that's it for today. Appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.