Episode 549 - Mike Labuschagne || A Human Rights Travesty, Part 1

Summary

Blood Origins Podcast Summary

Title: Blood Origins
Host/Author: Blood Origins Inc.
Episode: Episode 549 - Mike Labuschagne || A Human Rights Travesty, Part 1
Release Date: April 1, 2025

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Introduction and Context

In Episode 549 of Blood Origins, host Mike Axelrod delves into a gripping narrative centered around conservation challenges in Kazunga, Zambia. This episode marks the beginning of a potentially multi-part series that meticulously sets the stage for understanding the intricate dynamics between conservation efforts, funding mechanisms, and human-wildlife conflicts in Africa.

Mike Axelrod [01:00]: "This is setting the context, setting the stage, setting the timeline of things that have happened in a place called Kazunga in Zambia."

Mike Labuschagne's Background

Mike Labuschagne, the episode's guest, brings a wealth of experience spanning two decades in conservation and nearly two decades in the military. Recruited by Dr. Anthony Hall Martin of the South African National Parks Board, Mike transitioned from a 19-year military career into conservation, focusing on anti-poaching and law enforcement.

Mike Labuschagne [05:31]: "I started off working for the South African government, seconded to the Malawi government. Then I worked with Frankfurt Zoological Society, and then I worked for the International Fund for Animal Welfare, IFAW."

Challenges with IFAW and Conservation Efforts

Mike recounts his tenure with the International Fund for Animal Welfare (IFAW), where he was tasked with initiating landscape conservation projects amidst a backdrop of internal factionalism and shifting funding strategies. The transition from traditional donor bases to more transparent and development aid-focused funding posed significant challenges.

Mike Labuschagne [16:14]: "The job was to initiate to find a landscape project for IFAW and to set up a landscape conservation program."

However, internal conflicts within IFAW, driven by differing visions and financial management issues, led to operational inefficiencies and hindered the progress of conservation projects.

Mike Labuschagne [19:45]: "They had got into this windfall. They paid themselves very well, they only traveled first class. And they were worried with a rail conservationist coming in there and trying to fulfill conservation objectives rather than to live a very simple and luxurious life."

Success at Wilderness Welfare

Amidst these challenges, Mike founded Wilderness Welfare, an entity aimed at executing conservation projects with integrity and efficiency. Under his leadership, the elephant population in Kasungu National Park rebounded from 45 to 121 within five years, showcasing the effectiveness of dedicated anti-poaching measures and community engagement.

Mike Labuschagne [35:02]: "It's spectacularly successful. We completely changed the amount of ivory that was being recovered, the number of arrests that were being made, and as I say, a clear and visible increase in your whole large mammal populations."

Conflicts and Funding Issues

Despite the successes, Mike faced increasing resistance from IFAW as the organization grappled with financial pressures and internal power struggles. Attempts to secure additional funding for essential infrastructure, such as fencing and operational support, were met with bureaucratic hurdles and mismanagement.

Mike Labuschagne [60:19]: "No, it's this one's to make sure you don't go under budget. So our crime was supposedly we were going under budget. So then they fly in a lot of people from America to help us now burn enough money, and they show us that they've got an astonishing amount of money for travel."

Mike's efforts to maintain project integrity were continuously undermined by IFAW's prioritization of financial metrics over on-ground conservation needs, leading to strained relationships and eventual constructive dismissal.

Mike Labuschagne [57:09]: "I brought IFAW in there at a time where I had already good reason, who believed that they were thoroughly corrupt. I had faith in a few individuals who I believed would make good decisions."

Elephant Translocation Project

A pivotal moment in the podcast revolves around the controversial elephant translocation project. Initially in favor, Mike advocated for a responsible and well-planned relocation of elephants to revitalize vegetation and mitigate human-elephant conflicts. However, due to IFAW's mismanagement and disregard for the necessary precautions, the project spiraled into a catastrophe.

Mike Labuschagne [89:12]: "We had to have permissions, we had to feed them, we had to release them in batches, and all those precautions had to be in place."

The rushed and inadequately planned translocation led to severe human-elephant conflicts, resulting in the deaths of 14 people and significant damage to local communities.

Mike Labuschagne [97:38]: "There are 14 people that have died that I am convinced are directly linked to the chaos that came along with this completely criminal negligent translocation."

Consequences and Whistleblowing

Confronted with the devastating outcomes of the translocation, Mike took a stand against IFAW's practices. Despite internal pressures and lack of support, he demanded accountability, leading to his constructive dismissal in January 2022. His whistleblowing efforts highlight the systemic issues within conservation organizations where financial mismanagement and lack of integrity overshadow genuine conservation goals.

Mike Labuschagne [105:15]: "I had to accept whistleblower status because I was the only key personnel listed in the cooperative agreement that gave $8 million of taxpayer money to IFAW. If I do not do my duty, the United States government can punish me."

Current Challenges and Human Rights Issues

Mike emphasizes the intertwining of conservation efforts with human rights, pointing out that mismanaged projects not only harm wildlife but also devastate local communities. The lack of proper investigative measures into the translocation project's failures perpetuates injustice and undermines long-term sustainability.

Mike Labuschagne [105:15]: "The investigation will look at those human rights abuses, and then they should pursue that very serious charge against IFAW."

Conclusion and Future Steps

As the episode concludes, Mike is resolute in his pursuit of justice and accountability. He underscores the necessity for thorough investigations to prevent future translocation disasters and to uphold the integrity of conservation efforts globally. Mike's unwavering commitment serves as a call to action for stakeholders to prioritize genuine conservation over financial gain.

Mike Labuschagne [100:20]: "What I'm fighting for is an investigation. And I will accept. If there's a thorough investigation, I will accept it."

Mike's journey illustrates the complexities and ethical dilemmas inherent in wildlife conservation, highlighting the crucial need for transparency, accountability, and community-centric approaches to ensure the protection of both wildlife and human populations.

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Notable Quotes

• Mike Axelrod [01:00]: "This is setting the context, setting the stage, setting the timeline of things that have happened in a place called Kazunga in Zambia."
• Mike Labuschagne [05:31]: "I started off working for the South African government, seconded to the Malawi government. Then I worked with Frankfurt Zoological Society, and then I worked for the International Fund for Animal Welfare, IFAW."
• Mike Labuschagne [16:14]: "The job was to initiate to find a landscape project for IFAW and to set up a landscape conservation program."
• Mike Labuschagne [35:02]: "It's spectacularly successful. We completely changed the amount of ivory that was being recovered, the number of arrests that were being made, and as I say, a clear and visible increase in your whole large mammal populations."
• Mike Labuschagne [89:12]: "We had to have permissions, we had to feed them, we had to release them in batches, and all those precautions had to be in place."
• Mike Labuschagne [97:38]: "There are 14 people that have died that I am convinced are directly linked to the chaos that came along with this completely criminal negligent translocation."
• Mike Labuschagne [105:15]: "I had to accept whistleblower status because I was the only key personnel listed in the cooperative agreement that gave $8 million of taxpayer money to IFAW. If I do not do my duty, the United States government can punish me."
• Mike Labuschagne [100:20]: "What I'm fighting for is an investigation. And I will accept. If there's a thorough investigation, I will accept it."

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Conclusion

Episode 549 of Blood Origins offers a compelling and detailed account of the challenges faced in wildlife conservation, particularly the interplay between dedication, integrity, and systemic obstacles. Mike Labuschagne's experiences shed light on the critical need for transparent and accountable practices within conservation organizations to ensure the protection of both wildlife and the communities that depend on them.

Transcript

[Mike Axelrod]

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[Mike Labuskachni]

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[Mike Axelrod]

So this is going to be potentially a series of podcasts. This is part number one, and it's a long one. It's very much longer than your typical Blood Origins podcast. There's a good reason for it. This is setting the context, setting the stage, setting the timeline of things that have happened in a place called Kazunga in Zambia. There's a guy called Mike Labuskachni that's been working in this place for almost two decades. And there is a long story here about conservation, human wildlife conflict, investments in that conservation by various stakeholders. And so we just wanted to put the story out on the street. This is just a podcast, a vehicle to hear directly from Mike. Mike sent me a sworn affidavit of everything that he is describing in this podcast. And so from a legal perspective, we are not the arbitrators of whether this is right or wrong or whether this is correct or incorrect. This is just the story from Mike and his experience on the ground. We will probably have a podcast following this with Mike and Ed Stoddard, a journalist out of South Africa who went and saw this firsthand. It's a convoluted story. It's a complicated story, it's a complex story. It's one that is probably facing a lot of Africa today and is going to be the challenge in the future, no doubt. So sit back, enjoy, listen to it in chunks, follow along and let me know what you think. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins, and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting.

[Mike Labuskachni]

It brings awareness to Non hunters that.

[Mike Axelrod]

It'S more than just killing animals.

[Mike Labuskachni]

How do I start it, Brittany? My name.

[Mike Axelrod]

Does my hair look okay? My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter. All right, well, it's been a little bit of a technical technological difficulty this morning, but we are finally connected. And let's see how this goes. I don't even know where to start with this, Mike. How about we start with. Let me go through a couple of questions for you, and it almost is an introduction to who you are. So, Mike Labasakny, currently, who do you work for? Mike, you just work for yourself, right?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes, that's correct, Robbie.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, you, who did you used to work for?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Well, I've had two careers in my life. I was in the military for 19 years, and then I was brought into conservation by Dr. Anthony Hall Martin of the South African National Parks Board. He recruited several ex Special forces soldiers because he could see that anti poaching and law enforcement was going to replace ecology and other issues on the center stage of the conservation of Africa's wilderness areas and their wildlife product. So I've had two careers. 19 years in the military and 19 years in conservation.

[Mike Axelrod]

And who did you work for in conservation?

[Mike Labuskachni]

I started off working for the South African government, seconded to the Malawi government. Then I worked with Frankfurt Zoological Society, and then I worked for the International Fund for Animal Welfare, ifaw.

[Mike Axelrod]

And what was your job at ifaw?

[Mike Labuskachni]

IFAW headhunted me to start a landscape project. So their traditional donor base, which was naive little old ladies, they felt were literally dying out, their funding from that source was reducing and they wanted to go into landscape conservation. So they headhunted me and asked me to take them into landscape conservation. We made this agreement in the year 2010.

[Mike Axelrod]

And what kind of. Why did they headhunt you, Mike? I know that you said you worked with Anthony Hall Martin. What gave you the qualifications that IFAW was like, hey, we want this guy?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Well, firstly, my practical experience. I had spent 19 years in the military and other special forces operators that they had recruited had proved to be extremely capable. So when I was working for the South African Parks Board, seconded to the South The Malawi government. I needed funding to start a fence attendant system because all over Africa they put up fences that don't work. And I realized you had to have a human element to fencing to make sure it continued to work.

[Mike Axelrod]

So I. Mike, this is fencing people away from wildlife. Wildlife away from people? Is that what you're talking about? Look guys, I'm a hunter, right? And when I go hunting, I like to figure out how to get my trophies back home as expeditiously as possible. Well, you don't have to look much further than Safari specialty importers. We know that trophy importation can be quite a headache. That's why Safari Specialty importer strives to make it as easy and hassle free as possible. They have access to a bonded warehouse. You won't be charged storage fees and you get a dedicated team that's readily available and will update you at every step in the process. They'll even go one step further. Safari specialty importers is working with us at Blood Origins and they are going to donate $100 from every shipment that they work with to conservation projects that include anti poaching, community development and wildlife conservation. At the end of the day, choose to spend your money with a team that's dedicated to you and is dedicated to helping show how hunting is a great conservation model. Hassle free logistics, fuel and conservation go with safari specialty importers. It may be tax season, but you don't have to fear the tax man. When you buy a banish suppressor. From April 1st to the 15th, Silencer Central is going to cover the cost of your federal tax stamp on any banish suppressor priced $8.49 and up. That's right. I'll make it even simpler. Buy a qualifying banish can and the tax stamp is on. Silence Essential. Go to silenceessential.com or call 866-811-6536 and find the banished suppressor you want. Add it to your cart. When you check out. The cost of the tax stamp is going to be covered. You're still going to get the excellent customer service. You're still going to get someone who walks you through the paperwork. It's going to be a portal that tracks your progress. They can set up a trust for you if you want. One is an easy pay system. It ships to your door. Silence Essential. Simplified process and fast approval times is making this all so easy and so painless. And you get a free tax stamp saving you 200 bucks. Now is the time to silence your firearm. Bushnell has been a longtime supporter of blood origins. And in keeping with the spirit of our collaboration, we've come up with an amazing idea. Bushnell is eager to help you get set up for conservation success. That's right. They want to help you. The conservation and research community is dominated by good people doing good things and investing significant time and effort for the benefit of habitat and the species. So what do you need to do? Pretty simple. Send us your conservation story and or your conservation wish. Could be managing whitetails, could be understanding your environment or species or something else related to conservation. What would you be able to do if you had a great trail camera setup? We will select the best story every other month and send you a camera bundle. Cell camera, normal SD camera, SD cards, as well as optics. Everything you need to get set up for success. I can't wait to see what you submit. You can email [e-mail] DM US. Message us whatever you want. We are not hard to find. Good luck.

[Mike Labuskachni]

It's basically putting a barrier between the wildlife and the people to protect both.

[Mike Axelrod]

This fencing project is just. It's a general fencing project or many different areas that you've been involved with from a fencing project perspective.

[Mike Labuskachni]

It was the fencing in Liwandi national park where I was working. So the fence wasn't functioning and it was being used for snaring wire. So I wanted to create a fence attendant system that would monitor the fence, repair the fence and keep it working. And IFAW said they would help me. I asked Anthony Hall Martin about IFAW and he said they had helped him buy land for Etosha. And so I was quite happy to work with them.

[Mike Axelrod]

So that was the first introduction to ifaw, really was your Lelande project, that you needed people to look after the fence, keep it intact. It wasn't a human wildlife conflict with wildlife scenario. Right. It was just they were using the fence for snaring.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Well, there was massive human wildlife conflict and that brought. That brought about the need for a fence. But the fence didn't work, so it wasn't solving the wildlife conflict. And since it didn't work, the people used it as a means to. To snare animals and in a way, protect themselves from the human elephant conflict.

[Mike Axelrod]

So this was your. This is when you got headhunted by ifaw. This is for this project. You approached them?

[Mike Labuskachni]

No, so I didn't. I had sent out requests for funding to various organizations and it was IFAW that responded. That was in 1998. And they sponsored the project for four years and they simply gave me grant money. I used it. I reported they were happy and it allowed us to effectively protect the fence and to use it to stop human elephant conflict.

[Mike Axelrod]

So in 1999, 1998, yes, you approach IFAW, you've approached a bunch of people. Who's paying your salary at this point? Nobody. You're just looking for people to help fund different projects that you see?

[Mike Labuskachni]

No, I was seconded from South African National Parks to the Department of National Parks in Malawi. So it was an official secondment through the Department of Fire.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, okay, I get, I get it. Now again, I see you're getting paid by South African National Parks, working for Malawi, looking at their situations. Hey, I've got this issue. We've got this issue with this fence and the lawn there. You're like, okay, now I need to go find money. Let's go raise some money to help the situation.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Exactly. Because the assumption was this fence was going to work. When I got there, the fence wasn't working. So nobody had made a budget to have a human element protecting the fence. So that wasn't part of the budget. So I just went around looking for funding, not for my salary, that was covered. And I4 agreed to give me grant funding. And my implementing team trained everybody equipped everybody, man managed, and it was a success. And gave me a.

[Mike Axelrod]

It was a successful project. Right. I4 did a good job for those four years.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes. Because they gave me the money and they didn't interfere with the team of experts on the ground doing the job.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, so now we're 2002, 2003. How do we go from 2003 to 2010, 2011, 2012.

[Mike Labuskachni]

After the financial crisis, the investment banking crisis, 2008 and 2009, IFAW's income from their traditional donor base, these naive little old ladies was dipping. So IFOR said, how do we make up for that lost income? Old ladies are literally dying off. And the younger generation aren't as naive. They're expecting a more convincing story and they want some transparency. So let us find somebody who can take us into serious landscape conservation where we can access development aid funding. And they came to me because when it comes to a hostile environment and initiating a difficult project, I've got an excellent record. So they came to me and headhunted me.

[Mike Axelrod]

And the job was what?

[Mike Labuskachni]

The job was to initiate to find a landscape project for i4 and to set up a landscape program, a landscape conservation program.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, so what did you do?

[Mike Labuskachni]

So, I mean, I did it quickly and efficiently. I had all the right contacts. I had A lot of respect. I had a record of success. So within six months, I got a beautiful landscape and the Liwandi landscape. I set up a plan. The DNPW signed it, i4 agreed to it, and we commenced.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, and talk us through that project and the sequence of events that moved on from there.

[Mike Labuskachni]

All right, so now what happens? Jason Bell tells me that now there are various factions in iLaw.

[Mike Axelrod]

Who's Jason Bell?

[Mike Labuskachni]

He was my contact in iLaw. He is currently a vice president and one of the top 10 personalities in i4. So I've had a relationship with him that went back to 1998. So he told me there's these different factions. So my attitude was, you headhunted me for a job. I spoke to the senior people in i4. They agreed. They asked me to go into the park. The DNPW signed. We are morally obliged. We occupy the space we need to fill that space and carry out the project.

[Mike Axelrod]

DNPW is Department of National Parks and Wildlife.

[Mike Labuskachni]

The Wildlife Authority. Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

Of Malawi.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[Mike Labuskachni]

So to cut a long story short, there was this constant faction fighting within ifaw. Now, when I was simply getting grant funding, I got grant funding once a year. I gave them a report I didn't get. I didn't know I4. And everything seemed fine. When. When I was commissioned to start a whole project and become part of i4, this is when I realized. This is when I saw this factionalism. But I also saw one of people could see I was very capable and I was going to do stuff. And they warned me. So some of the most senior people who had senior in terms of years, service, you know, they warned me, they said, mike, what you got to realize is that for years we've been telling little old ladies, have a look at this cute kitty. It's a cute little kitty cat. Give us £50. Otherwise, kitty cat goes in the blender. And for us now to change this very naive way of getting money, there is going to have to be a huge shift in the way IFAW thinks and the way they're structured. And that is going to cause you a lot of grief. And so it proved to be.

[Mike Axelrod]

Why did the upper echelon think that that was going to cause you grief? They didn't think that people were thinking on the same level as you were?

[Mike Labuskachni]

No. What the problem was is that. And again, one of the most senior people told me that as an act of serendipity, they wrote to little old ladies and said, please give us money. We want to save the kitty cat. We want to save the dog, we want to save the whale, we want to save the walrus, we want to save anything that looks cute. And they got millions and millions of dollars. And so they had got into this windfall. They paid themselves very well, they only traveled first class. And they were worried with a rail conservationist coming in there and trying to fulfill conservation objectives rather than to live a very simple and luxurious life. It was the first time I had come across people that wanted to be opulent and indolent. You know, you meet people that are driven to make money and they're very, very busy. They, they're driven, they don't sleep long hours. This was the first time I'd seen people who, typical sheep in sheep's clothing who wanted lots of money and wanted a life of luxury. It, it was, it was a, a, a very uncomfortable relationship. Okay, so the whole luandi project under i4 and our me fighting with these factions was a disaster and I decided to leave I4.

[Mike Axelrod]

So why were you fighting with him? Like what, what were you asking for? Why the conflict? Because you were obviously tasked to do a project. You were headhunter to do a project. And then were you just being blocked in certain places to execute the project?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yeah, well, they don't send me the money, so. Completely blocked.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, so what were they doing with their conservation desires? Was that just not, was it just more of a sort of on paper, this is what we're doing, but we're not actually doing anything on the ground, Is that what you're saying?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Well, I don't have perfect knowledge as to what was going on in the background, but there are constant faction fighting within i4. So certainly the person I was dealing with, Jason Bell, I believed he genuinely wanted to move away from an organization that was basically confidence tricksters lying to little old ladies, getting money and not having any deep belief in what they were doing was right and moral and sound.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, okay, so you're in full time employment of IFAW right now though, you know, 2020. This is 2012. Through what stage do you say? Okay, I'm out. Thank you so much for the opportunity, but I think we've got a part ways.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Well, what happened? They I got an opportunity to work again with the Frankfurt Zoological Society in gonorrhozo and that was very fulfilling work. So I was going to move now back into mainstream conservation. I believed when I for headhunted me that I would be allowed to go ahead and roll out this landscape project as was signed in the agreement, as they'd Asked me to conduct that completely failed. So now what you had, you had your factions. Now, the one who wanted to do the landscape conservation was in conflict with others. And so people that I was now associated with and that I believe genuinely wanted to start a landscape project, they asked me stay on, help us. We're still going to win. Azzedine Downes is going to become the CEO. He supports us to the yield. And with me doing really great work in Gonorrhezo, again, I was willing to see which way the wind blew in a way. And then an opportunity. When they wanted now to commit themselves again to landscape conservation, we got an opportunity because of a survey conducted by the German embassy in Lilongwe and the British High Commission in Lilongwe.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, and what did that survey show?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Okay, so that survey showed that Kasungu national park, which is Malawi's oldest national park and the second largest national park, had been subjected to severe poaching and that the elephant population had been reduced from 1,000 to 45. And that this runaway, disastrous poaching was caused by government corruption. Malawi government corruption, all of that. 100% true. It was a superb intervention on the part of the German ambassador and the British high commissioner. So this caused Malawi Ministry of tourism a lot of embarrassment. And they asked me to go to Kasungu and address the problem of poaching and the problem of corruption.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, so who hired you to go to Kasungu originally?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Okay, so the request came from the ministry of tourism. Now I had different options of trying to get.

[Mike Axelrod]

Ministry of tourism of Malawi.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes, yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay. So they. The ministry of tourism of Malawi at the highest level, recognized there was issues both poaching and potential local corruption.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Not potential. The poaching was a product of corruption, and that's the state of affairs across Africa. So I believe I could start the transformation on Kusungu on a budget of $40,000. And I asked around, and ifore said to me, and it was people that I had trusted, that I'd had trust in and that I'd known for a long time, they said, this whole squabble is over. We want you to go there and tackle this project, and we'll give you the 40,000.

[Mike Axelrod]

The squabble that is the landscape conservation internal faction squabble of IFAW.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Exactly. A little palace revolution as to who controls the treasure chest.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay. So they said we would help you. We're gonna. We're gonna fund you to go in. So ifor said, we're gonna help the ministry of Malawi. We're Gonna send Mike into Kazungu to deal with, sort out, put processes in place to deal with the anti poaching and corruption on the ground.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Exactly. So to do this, we set up an entity called Wilderness Welfare. So once again we went back to grant funding. So instead of me being part of ifaw, IFAW gave money to this entity and did not interfere in the work we were doing.

[Mike Axelrod]

Who set up the entity? Mike?

[Mike Labuskachni]

I set it up.

[Mike Axelrod]

So as was an NGO in Malawi.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes. With the idea of ring fencing, I fought corruption and incompetence and buffoonery out of our decision making.

[Mike Axelrod]

So simple, just transactional. You give a grant to Wilderness Welfare, the money is now here. We execute how we like to execute.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Exactly. Right. So let the people who actually know what they're doing do the job. You mind your own business. And raise money from the spectacular success that we will make.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[Mike Labuskachni]

It worked very well. And you know, bang for bucks. It was astonishingly successful project. And to cut a long story short, within five years of us getting there, the elephant population had increased from 45 to 121.

[Mike Axelrod]

So Mike, why was the, why was the, was the population of elephants that went from A thousand to 45 in your opinion, when you're on the ground to start with, was it hunger, was it ivory poaching, was it illegal bushmeats trade? Or was it human wildlife conflict, just problem animals that they're taking care of? Or is it a combination of all four?

[Mike Labuskachni]

It's a combination of all four. But a major driver of how large mammals occupy space in a landscape is poaching pressure. So as I was living there on a day to day basis and tackling the poaching problem and having a very vibrant informant network and setting up an investigation and intelligence unit, which was spectacularly successful. I had no doubt in my mind that during the terrible poaching period in the mid-1970s to late 1980s in the Luangwa Valley, that poaching pressure pushed a lot of elephant into Kosungu. And when Kosungu's elephant poaching went out of control, a percentage of those elephants went back into to the Luanga.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, and.

[Mike Labuskachni]

And that explains the elephant population growing from 45 to 121 in five years, the poaching in the middle part of the Luonga Valley was out of control. And that pressure pushed some of that elephant population back into Kasungu National Park. So we want.

[Mike Axelrod]

What time frame are we talking about here, Mike?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Five years. From 2015 to 2020, the elephant population increased from 45 to 121.

[Mike Axelrod]

So a pretty connected system with Luanga, as you say, as what you're trying to sort of illustrate here, that there's movement between these two parks. Elephant populations are up and down because of certain cancer, human pressures in different parts of these areas.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes, but the whole story of the last 25 years is massive human growth and the flooding of people into those areas between the national parks. So those areas between Kasungu and the Luangwa Valley is communal land. It's not protected area. And so people just flooded into that area. So your elephants that knew the system, elephants that had always lived in that system, would tiptoe and I mean, this is the way our informants described it and what we witnessed ourselves. Elephants knowing the roots, would take the shortcut, cut quietly through areas of high pone and then walk into the valley and vice versa. So there was this, the elephant population that had always been there, a human population that had always been there, but massive growth in the human population, you know, doubling in 10 years and just filling up those spaces. But if you look at going from 45 to 121 and being supplemented from a herd of 16,000 in the Luangwa Valley, what you see in Kasungu is the fastest growing elephant population in any park in that region. And a very varied. It was elements from the huge population in the Luongo Valley joining the Ksungu elephant population.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, so we've set the scene. You're in the, you're in there doing work through wilderness welfare. You are tackling the anti purging problems. Elephant populations are changing. Whether it's through work that you're doing or, you know, just general population fluctuations. How is, how is everything going in terms of the work that you're doing, the anti poaching work, and everything is, is working well. Right.

[Mike Labuskachni]

It's spectacularly successful. We, you know, we completely changed the amount of ivory that was being recovered, the number of arrests that were being made, and as I say, a clear and visible increase in your whole large mammal populations. Elephants going from 45 to 121 and the doubling of all other large mammal species such as buffalo, zebra, antelope, etc.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, so then there is an idea, I assume from IFAW or from someone who comes up with the idea that says we need to move more elephants into Kasungu.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Well, African parks initiated that because in Liwonbi now their elephant population was increasing and so was their human elephant conflict. So this is a very, this is a politically sensitive topic that they needed to address. So they started they wanted to move elephant. Now, when you've had your whole large mammal population decimated in a place like Kasungu, obviously it affects the vegetation. So I was completely accepting in 2017 that we could bring animals. I mainly wanted bulk grazers and bulk feeders, but that we could accept 150 elephant as long as we got a lot of bulk feeders, bulk grazers, to revitalize the vegetation of Kasungu National Park. Now that was in 2017. And then I wanted to make sure that we sat down and started a steering committee that we could see that necessary precautions were in place.

[Mike Axelrod]

What do you mean necessary precautions?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Well, obviously, you know, I often say to people, if somebody said to you, I've got 250 cats, will you help me go and move them, dump them somewhere? You would say, well, you can't just go dump 250 cats. You're going to have to get permission. You're going to have to see how we're going to feed them, how do we release them that they don't just run all over. When it comes to 263 elephant or 150 or however many, you've got to plan it properly, you've got to see what precautions are needed, how they're going to get sufficient food and water, etc. Etc. So those are the precautions to pick up elephant and buffalo here and go dump them over there. It is potentially disastrous. So I wanted to make sure that this wasn't just a money making exercise that would cause enormous damage to the success we had, you know, fought for and created. So that was minuted in, in the beginning of February 2018 at the time.

[Mike Axelrod]

I think it's an important thing to note at the time when this idea is being bantered around. You're, you're, you're in favor of it.

[Mike Labuskachni]

I'm in favor of it mainly because we need these bulk feeders and bulk grazers to revitalize vegetation that hasn't been browsed or grazed anywhere near optimum levels.

[Mike Axelrod]

Plus, there's already elephants in the system. Right? There's, it's not like there's no elephants. There's a hundred plus elephants. So an added 200 elephants. Everyone's used to elephants. You should be used to elephants. Elephants are in the system.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Seems to work. Exactly. So it, it made a lot of sense, but you, it needed to be properly done.

[Mike Axelrod]

And I'm assuming you're suggesting that it was not properly done.

[Mike Labuskachni]

No, your, your whole problem that a Whole success was based on the fact that people were that were properly trained when they were allowed to do their job. It was a highly successful program. When people from i4, driven only by self aggrandizement, wanted to take over and run that park in their personal interest rather than the interest of the people and the animals of that system. That was the disaster. And that disaster started in 2018.

[Mike Axelrod]

So what happened in 2018? Did Eiffel take over Kasungu National Park?

[Mike Labuskachni]

No. The problem was IFAW asked me to write a grant proposal to usaid. USAID had put out a notification, you know, for proposals. So I wrote the proposal thinking we had been so successful for the previous two years that we could now deal with more funding. So I wrote the proposal, the proposal went through, and then we had a second phase where we established.

[Mike Axelrod]

What was the proposal for, Mike?

[Mike Labuskachni]

The proposal was for funding for law enforcement and community engagement on the Zambian and the Malawi side of Kasungu National Park.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[Mike Labuskachni]

So my proposal went through the first round and then I went down to Pretoria with Jason Bell and I could give presentations that showed just our spectacular success. And that basically got i4 approved for this grant. It was not just one of the biggest mistakes of my career, it was one of the biggest mistakes of my life. And the damage that that process has caused to Kusungu and the people of Kosungu and the wildlife of Kosungu is absolutely shocking.

[Mike Axelrod]

But that doesn't make any sense, Mike, because the proposal was for anti poaching and community engagement.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes, but now you know, as I say, when I went to Kasungu National Park, I wanted a budget of 40,000. On a budget of 40,000, you can only be successful when a ruthless and development aid agency. And remember, IFAW was always in my mind when I got to know them, a criminal operation. But it was simply a confidence trick. Tricking. You convinced the little old lady you were doing well. She gave you a hundred pounds and it was a petty crime when you only have the capacity to utilize perhaps $800,000 a year. And now your development aid agency and your corrupt ngo, they only want one thing. They want you to burn that $8 million, $8.8 million as quickly as possible so that they can burn it and get another 8 million. So there is nothing more there. Conservationists have been very successful on half of what they needed. Conservation has been destroyed in Africa by conservationists getting 20 times more than what they need because the conservationists cannot spend it. And so you get these people from outside coming in and trying to spend the money for you purely in their own interests and not having an idea what conservation entails. You don't need lots of money for conservation.

[Mike Axelrod]

So surely though that that money was going towards anti poaching and community engagement. That was what the grant was written for.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes, but in the time I worked for i4 and USAID together.

[Mike Axelrod]

But were you working directly for them, Mike, or were they paying wilderness welfare?

[Mike Labuskachni]

This is where those lines became fudged. So IFAW used the $8 million from USAID to once again try to take over the management.

[Mike Axelrod]

Management of the work that was being done on the ground. The community work, the anti poaching work.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Exactly. Okay, so this was absolutely disastrous. And my entire attempt was to continue to allow the people who knew what was going on, who had skin in the game to continue to allow be allowed to do conservation work rather than these avaricious people wanting to burn funding as quickly as possible so that they could get more. So that is where the contest was played out from 2018 onwards.

[Mike Axelrod]

So where's. So what happens from that point? Again, I get what you're saying, but at the same time I don't. Because where does the conflict happen here? Where does the issue start really becoming an issue?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Well, now you need, as I say, I need. I needed 40,000 to start the project. And your informant network, your vehicles, your patrol ration system, your investigation and intelligence all requires ongoing funding. Not a lot of funding, but you have to maintain momentum. So what they were doing, they were withholding funds from us because we were complaining. They were giving funding to people completely unqualified. And this was deeply affecting our ability to continue to manage the park effectively. Now also they wanted not to go ahead with this elephant translocation.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, so but does that tie in with the project that you're doing? Is that where the funding came from? Or they get other funding from somewhere else?

[Mike Labuskachni]

No, they want. Picking up elephant here and dumping them over there is a massive money spinner. So I forgot photograph of wildlife, photograph of the year, you know, in picking up elephant. Well, they didn't do it. You hire somebody, a game capture expert. All of this used to be done by the departments in the old days. This is now done by private companies.

[Mike Axelrod]

Right, right, right, right. Game relocation, game management, you know, game management works. All privately done.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yep, exactly. So it's a massive money spinner whether it's done properly or not. So this is where your conservationist, who knows that if you just bring elephant there and dump them, it is going to be a Disaster. And everything you've worked with, everything that you started with on a 40,000 budget, is going to be destroyed by this carpet bombing of 8 million and then dumping elephant there, where you can blow huge amounts of money but raise even more than you blow. So it's a typical situation of conservation fighting greed.

[Mike Axelrod]

Mike, I'm a little confused though. I'm trying to figure out where did the idea of the elephant translocation come from? Was that from Africa Parks? That said Lelandes, there's too many elephants, we need to move them somewhere. Oh, Kasungu is an area that we can move elephants to.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Quatro.

[Mike Axelrod]

Is that how it came about?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes, in 2017. So as I say, I was quite, in 2017, I was quite happy with the idea because we had to get enough browsers and grazers in because any vegetation, natural vegetation, requires natural levels of grazing and browsing and trampoline and wallowing and urination and defecation to keep that system vibrant. That is how it formed. It formed in relationship with the abiotic elements of the landscape. With your large mammal populations and your vegetation. There's a dynamic ecology, a dynamic relationship. We needed to recreate this, that.

[Mike Axelrod]

But you said that you, you, you had some reservations. You loved the project, but you had some reservations.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes. And so in February 2018, I, we held a meeting and I recorded those reservations and Everybody agreed. In 2018, when we had massive interference from i4, these incompetent people, these incompetent self seeking people that we had ring fenced out of interfering in management, when they came back, that is when I stopped the translocation dead. So I was then against the translocation, against and through my efforts it was stopped. Now it was stopped because if you had these money grubbing people who didn't give a damn about the people, the animals or the long term sustainability of that natural landscape they didn't give a damn about, it was all about self aggrandizement. If they were allowed to make decisions, the integrity of the project and the integrity of that landscape would have been destroyed forever. Which is exactly what happened. So there was this fight between me and them. I had enough influence to be able to stop that translocation dead in its tracks in 2019, 2020 and 2021.

[Mike Axelrod]

But it still happened.

[Mike Labuskachni]

No, it didn't happen while I was there. So now this fight between myself and I fall.

[Mike Axelrod]

What are you doing? Over this time, over this time frame, when you're stopping the elephants, you're saying, okay, look, this isn't a good idea. This isn't a good idea. This isn't a good idea for three years. Are you still working for ifaw? Are you still working for Wilderness Welfare?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

What are you doing in this three year period?

[Mike Labuskachni]

I'm doing all of those things. I moved when the minister asked me to go to Kasungu, I went there immediately. So what happens? I live in a tent. I live for the first year without running water and electricity, which is the way I like to start a project. And then as funding came in, I upgraded one of the staff houses there, and I live there. And then I put in solar. I sink a borehole. And so I lived there permanently from 2015 until I was constructively dismissed at the end of 2021 as soon as.

[Mike Axelrod]

By the Malawi government?

[Mike Labuskachni]

No, not by the Malawi government. By ifaw.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, because you had changed your. Because you were number one. You were seconded by the Malawi government. Right. But now you're working from iFor.

[Mike Labuskachni]

It was the minister who asked me to go to Kasungu, so.

[Mike Axelrod]

Right.

[Mike Labuskachni]

So now it was me who brought IFAW into Kosungu. And this is where I accept that I'm partly to blame for the human rights abuses, the corporate homicide, the death of scores of elephants, the brutalization of thousands of people. I am party to that because I brought IFAW in there at a time where I had already good reason, who believed that they were thoroughly corrupt. I had faith in a few individuals who I believed would make good decisions. Those few individuals, I believe, had good intentions, but they were not going to lose their job for any kind of matter of principle. So they clung onto their jobs and, you know, so be it. But having joined the army at 17, I'm not a free agent. You know, something like honor or integrity is something that nobody can take from you. The only way you can lose it is by giving it away. So by the end of 2021, I could either make the decision that Jason Bell and others made. Hang on. Let me screw over the landscape, let me screw over the animals, let me screw over the people and cling onto my job. Because I have yet to meet anybody in i4 who has the competitiveness to earn the salary they earn in ifaw. On the free market, they would not stand a chance. These sheep in sheep's clothing would get eaten alive. In a competitive system. I thrive in a hostile environment. Not Busan special, actually Busan very ordinary. If you live an authentic life as a male member, alpha male, member of the species Homo sapiens, you thrive on comparativeness. We like a eat or be eaten scenario. So at the end of 2021, I could either betray my 50, my, then my 62 years of maintaining integrity and maintaining honor, betray my mentors and my teachers, and haul myself out for an eye for salary, or I could remain true to those who had always believed in me and what I had believed in from the day I opened my eyes and continue to resist this criminality that was taking place in Kusungu National Park.

[Mike Axelrod]

Was there at the time, the elephants hadn't been moved, right?

[Mike Labuskachni]

No, they hadn't. They were moved five months after I left there.

[Mike Axelrod]

I want to be very clear here. You're saying criminality is occurring. What criminality? Okay, so is it just criminality? And again, I don't mean to be crass about it, but criminality in your mind that they earn too much.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Now, where the criminality comes in, there's such a thing as duty of care. So let's say I am given a fat contract to clean windows of a 20 story building. If I'm constantly dropping buckets filled with water and soap on people's heads and on people's cars and killing them, at some point people are going to say to me, you are criminally liable for earning a lot of money cleaning windows and not taking the precaution that three times a day you knock off heavy objects from 12 stories up and causing a lot of damage to everybody else.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Okay. So if you are given a contract to provide lifesavers in the holiday season and to save money, you only hire people who can't swim and a lot of people drown, you are criminally negligent. You did not take duty of care. You did not take due precaution. Now, when you take.

[Mike Axelrod]

So what are you suggesting? What are you suggesting that IFAW did?

[Mike Labuskachni]

So IFAW took 263 elephants.

[Mike Axelrod]

This is after though, before, because you were saying they were. They were doing criminal activity whilst you were still there. This is after you left, right? I just want to be clear here. I want to be clear that you're not pointing a finger at Eyeful for being, quote, unquote, criminals before the elephants were moved.

[Mike Labuskachni]

All right, so let's have a look at some of the examples. In 2018, we get called to a meeting in the Lilongwe and we get told that the burn rate is too low and USAID is going to close down the project. So I say, I don't understand how the burn rate can be too low. We as busy as bees, we doing a lot of stuff and we Submitting invoices. So they show us what our budget is and what our burn rate is. Okay, and they use that. This is now.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, it's a classic grant term. It happens is when I was a professor at Mississippi State, you looked at your burn rate to make sure that you. And really, it's to show that. To make sure you didn't go over budget.

[Mike Labuskachni]

No, it's this one's to make sure you don't go under budget. So. So our crime was supposedly we were going under budget. So then they fly in a lot of people from America to help us now burn enough money, and they show us that they've got an astonishing amount of money for travel. It was a ludicrous amount. Might have been $400,000. So I say, guys, how the hell are you going to spend that if it is set aside for travel? We desperately need an airfield. We need an operations room and a hangar so that we can provide air support when we need it to our operations. Can we not use money from the travel budget to put down an airfield and a hangar? And that.

[Mike Axelrod]

I can tell you that right now, no. Because of federal money and the way that money is passed into different categories. The answer probably from them was no, because that's infrastructure.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Well, surprisingly enough, they said yes. Yeah. Okay. So now I say, all right, So I write the proposal. It's for $110,000. We're going to create an airfield that. Where you can bring in airplane that can carry 12 tons. So he could. And we're going to have a depot where we'll have fuel. We're going to create a water supply that we've got a 24. 7 operations complex and all of that. So they okay it. And I start the project. After I started the project, six weeks later, they come back to me and they say, oh, they made a terrible mistake. I said, what was the mistake? They say, no, actually, I was right. And somebody in Massachusetts was putting our expenses in the wrong account. So while we were spending money, it wasn't reflecting. And that is why they thought it was. We were not burning enough money. So to me, this is. This is incompetence to a level that I've never experienced in my life. How could you not know what you spend in. So now they tell me, okay, you have to stop the. The. The airfield renovation and the ops room. So I can't stop. We've already got tractors on the go there. And if we don't do this now, we're going to lose the, you know, $30,000 that we've already plowed in because we also had to connect water to the staff complex. So, so, so, so that happened. So what I decided to do, I said, right, I'm going to, I'm going to put $60,000 in this and complete the job because I'm not losing, I'm not blowing away $30,000 of either little old ladies money or American taxpayers money. So I had to loan the project $60,000 and we completed it. So if you see pictures of usaid, you will see them opening the airport that I paid for and was later refunded by ifaw. So it's that type of buffoonery that I'd never.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, but that's not. To me, that's not. I get, I get, I get your frustration there. But you know, that kind of stuff happens all the time. It's just part of the federal grant process. It's just things happen, things change, things move, things are delayed. You know, they don't happen the way that, like, I like you, that's a military guy that's like, hey guys, this is, this is not right. This is incompetent. Like it, stuff like that happens.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Unfortunately, yes. But the name of the project was Combating Crime. And we were combating crime, deploying 60 automatic firearms, assault rifles. So when you've got that level of intervention, you've actually got to pull up your socks. You're not some student at some university blowing daddy's money. You chose to go into an armed operation that requires a certain level of professionalism and command and control. And this admittedly was lost. And exactly what you saying or the sort of stuff I heard, I say, all right, that's all very nice. When you're running around a university with daddy's money, when you are deploying officers armed with assault rifles, you actually have to maintain different levels of standards.

[Mike Axelrod]

I get that. I get that.

[Mike Labuskachni]

At that same time, they wanted to burn some of this huge travel budget, so they decided they all flying off to Victoria Falls. Did I want to go with? I said, no, I definitely did not want to go with. I've got work to do in the field. And I don't know why you need to go to Livingston and the Victoria Falls and book into a nice lodge there to discuss something that you can discuss on the Internet or at a meeting in Kusungu National Park. So they all head off now, Livingston over there, they get mixed up on the different acronyms and they suddenly take away from Wilderness Welfare, the Wildlife Crime Investigation unit that I'd established in January 2016. So this is not suddenly plucked out of our landscape. The Department of National Parks wasn't at the meeting. So this is a Department of National Parks and Wildlife investigation unit that is now plucked away from our landscape and given to some crony to make money out of. Now you can look at it whichever way you like. That is criminal. If you are using donor money and government money to push government decision and due authority aside simply to allow a crony to own some money, that too is criminal.

[Mike Axelrod]

So, Mike, let me. So we. One of the things again, this is all leading to this idea that these elephants have. Now this is. There's a project that IFAW wants to put in place, right?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

And that is the movement of elephants from Luande to Kasungu that you were opposed to, you were in favor of to start with, you're opposed to. At the end, you're opposed to it from various, you know, various perspectives, including probably you're just your lack of disposition, your lack of, of trust for what IFOR was doing with, with monies tied to the grant. What happened then like you left in 2018. Are you dis you dismissed from i4?

[Mike Labuskachni]

No. So human elephant conflict is possibly the single greatest threat to the long term sustainability of Africa's wildlife insomuch as elephants don't have votes and the people they trample upon do. And so there was no human elephant conflict in Kasungum as our elephant population quickly started growing from 45 to 121 and as because they were no longer being poached because they had lost their fear of humans. Human elephant conflict, we could see signs of it starting late in 2018. So in the USAID grant, we already had pre approved funding to upgrade the eastern boundary fence to make it elephant proof. And this would have stopped human elephant conflict from escalating and becoming a major management problem in Kusungu National Park. So everything was agreed to and the fencing was supposed to be delivered on 1 June 2019. It was not delivered despite us having put everything in place and despite the entire team on the ground, that is the DNPW team and the Wilderness Welfare team, repeatedly writing to IFAW and warning them, we got the money, we have to start the fence in June 2019. This was not done and human elephant conflict became the drive the, the management issue in 2019. In many ways we got behind the curve. That was criminal negligence. And I wrote to USAID and I wrote the original.

[Mike Axelrod]

This is, this is prior, prior to translocation. This is Gen, this is just the elephants right now in Kungur, that is.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Your resident population that is increasing due to our law enforcement intervention, increasing rapidly, losing its fear of human beings not finding plentiful forage because of the absence of large mammals for the previous 20 years and now crop raiding. So we had planned for this and that needed to start on 1 June 2019, for no reason but to try to show that they were in control. They did not provide the fencing. So I wrote to them and I warned them that they are now guilty of criminal negligence. And if this continues, me and them would face one another in courts of laws. They had no right to cause so much damage Tukasungu National Park. And what you're saying, quite rightly, this was the resident population. These were the 45 that had grown out to over a hundred. And that was an indication.

[Mike Axelrod]

And you believe in your mind, you believe that they are negligent. They're to blame because there is this grant in place that has provided money for anti poaching and community engagement of the people around Kasungu National Park.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes. Now, in that grant, pre approved because it was so important and to prevent human elephant conflict, there was money set aside, pre approved to upgrade the eastern boundary fence and make it elephant proof.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay. And that didn't happen in 2019?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes. Despite it being agreed that it would and despite the DNPW and wilderness welfare informing i4 that we had to have that fencing on the 1st of June, they didn't do it. Tens of thousands of dollars of damage was done to poor people, the very people that the park depends on for support. It was totally unnecessary and an act of criminal negligence. So you got a team of surgeons that repeatedly informs you that the electricity is not up to standard in the surgery and during an operation you're going to have an electric failure and it's going to cause death. Repeatedly when that happens, the management of that hospital of criminally negligent money was set aside to have electric backup in the surgery. It didn't happen. And so too in Kasungu national park, they did not deliver the fencing as pre approved and that was criminal negligence. And they were issued warning by myself that this was criminal negligence. And if it continued, we'd be facing one another in a court of law and in the courts of public opinion.

[Mike Axelrod]

And this is. So this happens in 2019 and the fence doesn't go up, there is human wildlife conflict and then they decide to move more elephants into Kasungu. When does that happen?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Okay, so now because of all of this, I'm now dead against the translocation and I'm stopping it. So what happens? Because. Partly because of that letter where I said to them they're criminally negligent. If this continued, we'd face one another in courts of law.

[Mike Axelrod]

I would fire you if you sent me a letter like that. I would fire you on the spot.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Good. I would come and I'd beat the shit out of you. I'd take you to court. I'd do what I needed you to. Show you this. Senior Pell, there's right and wrong in my world. And I had the full backing of the Department of National Parks. And what line so now what happens on the 1st of June, 2020? The F scar.

[Mike Axelrod]

When did you get fired from i4?

[Mike Labuskachni]

I. I never got fired from i4. Wow. Yes. It was a constructive dismissal. So. So what happened?

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, okay, okay. Where did you get dismissed from i4?

[Mike Labuskachni]

I left i4 on the 16th of January, 2022. So.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Mike Labuskachni]

In my final letter to them, I sent out, said two things. You owe me $60,000 and I want an investigation as I'm entitled to, thanks to my whistleblower status.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, no, no. Hold on, hold on, hold on. We're getting ahead of ourselves. We're getting ahead of ourselves. You send that letter in June 2019?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes. No. 8th of I for 8th of December 2019.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's when you sent the letter saying, you guys, this is wrong.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

I'll see you in a court of law, the whole concab. And i4 does what in response? They do not dismiss you.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Bloody right they didn't.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, so they didn't. So then what? So 2020. Now we're in 2020. You're about to say the money for the fencing showed up?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes, thanks to my letter. Hello. So now the. Now the fencing turns up. We put up the fence using the local community and it is a spectacular success. The minister comes, the head of USAID come, everybody's happy, and the fence works a treat. The human elephant conflict stops overnight. That fence that we put up From June to October 2020, no animal has breached that fence up until today because it was done properly. It's a fence that works. It's not wasn't done by a bunch of student on daddy's money. It was done by a professional group of people who know what they're doing. So that was a spectacular success. And the head of USAID came. The minister came. It was well covered in the newspapers and on television. A huge success. So now, after the success and after my great anger at them not putting that fancy material there on time, as agreed, we go and have a meeting where we are going to have, I think it was a zoo called a Zoom Call in those days, a Zoom Call in Lilongwe between I4 and the United States government, USAID. So IFAW and USAID always marginalized the Department of National Parks and Wildlife. They were never, ever invited. So I insisted and I paid for the DNPW to be there. I said, they have to be part of this. You keep on saying this is a gift to the DNPW when the DNPW are never part of anything. So I'm there with my fellow officers who have known me for 20 years. I've trained most of them. I'm sitting there now, we waiting for the Zoom Call to start and us to talk to the United States government about what we're doing with the $8 million of taxpayers money. Five minutes before this call starts, the chief of party, so he's appointed by i4 and he's appointed by USAID, but he's fully paid by USAID and he sits between the two groups. He comes in there and he says, oh, Mike, I've just been briefed by i4 in Massachusetts that when you speak to the United States government, you must tell them you haven't built a fence. So I said, what? He said, you must tell him we haven't built a fence. I said to him, patricio, are you telling me I must lie to the United States government? So he said, yes. So I said, go back, phone whoever called you and tell them I will not lie. And I'm going to demand to know from USAID why the fencing wasn't delivered on time. Which is exactly what I did. So I just want to tell you this, that for somebody to come and tell a commissioned officer was a commissioned army officer, a justice of the peace, and is currently an officer in the DNPW and is the only key personnel listed in the agreement that gave you $8 million to tell him to lie to the United States government. It is something that should send you to jail for a very long time. It's completely unacceptable. And that is what was the catalyst for me deciding to go into dispute with ifaw. You cannot do that. Now, maybe you did that at university, running around there smoking dope, having too much alcohol and all on daddy's money, but you do not do that with when you are exercising command and control over 60 officers armed with automatic assault rifles. And you just don't tell a commission officer to lie to a government. It is absolutely unacceptable. And you put that along with all the other things that were happening and continue to happen, culminating in the dumping of 263 elephants. And what you see there is criminality, including corporate homicide, including human rights abuse of 12,000 people and a list of minor other offenses.

[Mike Axelrod]

Hold on, Mike. So let's just. Again, you're getting ahead of yourself. You have this meeting. Obviously things don't go well in the meeting. This is now end of 2020.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Quite right.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, so then what happens? You leave that meeting and you say I'm done. Yes, but up until this point, I would say, and I'd love to your opinion. Up until this point, the project's been very successful.

[Mike Labuskachni]

It's been a successful beyond belief.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay. Okay. Even though you've had frustrations with ifaw, even though you've had frustrations with money arriving, you having to put money up, that kind of stuff, the project's been extremely successful.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Successful beyond belief.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, so now we're into 2021. You're still employed by IFAW. You said you only got dismissed in 2022. I was never after the elephants move.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Oh, you were never 2022. So now I going to dispute with i4. I say to them, right, it's a constructive dismissal. This is what you owe me. Okay, So I for come to me and they say, this is the most successful project we've ever run. And we Is there some way you are willing to continue it? Under what conditions are you willing to continue it? So while IFAW are coming to me and asking me to continue, the DNPW and the Wilderness Welfare officers are writing to me and say, please come back. Everything is going to fall apart if we don't continue with what we call the empowerment model. If we allow these imperialists to rape and pillage this landscape, everything we have done hitherto will be meaningless. So I'm getting IFAW asking me to negotiate and come back. I'm having the DNPW doing the same and officers that I had worked with for 24 years very successfully, all doing the same. So I said what I would do. I would be willing to accept half of my constructive dismissal package and we go back to wilderness welfare and grant funding and we ring fence. I for. I called it in booksie. Incompetence, buffoonery, criminal negligence and rabid self interest. Because when I told them, I said, the only things you offer is incompetence, buffoonery, criminal negligence and rabid self Interest. They say, well, you create in a toxic environment. Can't you use other terminology? So I said, all right, we'll call it in book C so that you don't find it too toxic, but please remember what it stands for. Incompetence, buffoonery, criminal negligence, and rabid self interest in Booksie. So the only thing you offer in Booksie, we want to ring fence this out of decision making in the landscape. They agreed to it, and I accepted 50% of my constructive dismissal package. They paid that to me. I returned to the landscape, and we were again immediately successful. But now, again, this factionalism in ifaw, while some people fully agreed that the team on the ground would continue to run the system until USAID had finished, and then we would continue to run it successfully, others tried to sabotage it. And so that dispute that I'd experienced from 2010 and had that beautiful period of 2015, 16, 17, where we had such success, that period of conflict within the factionalism had taken over again. So that is when I wrote to ifaw, and I said, right, I am not prepared to work with you anymore. According to our agreement, you owe me 60,000. There's two things I want. You owe me $60,000. Please pay it. And number two, quoting my whistleblower duties and responsibilities set out in the cooperative agreement, I want an investigation. So I ask for $60,000 and ask for an investigation. I get the $60,000. I don't get the investigation.

[Mike Axelrod]

Of course you wouldn't get an investigation. I wouldn't investigate myself either. I wouldn't investigate myself either.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yeah, but you don't have this legacy of honor and integrity that's not up for sale. You know, there's people that look at this and only despise him because he could have held out for 25 pieces of silver.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, I hear you. I hear you. I'm just. I'm. I. I'm just trying to put my feet, My. Myself in their. In their shoes.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Sure. And you play. And you're playing devil's advocate in your role as the podcaster, and I understand that, and I. I fully appreciate it.

[Mike Axelrod]

So, Mike, you are. You're done with i4. This is June 2022.

[Mike Labuskachni]

No, January 2022. I'm done with them now.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, and then what? When do the. And up until this point, elephants. You're constantly saying, don't move them, don't move them, don't move them, don't move them. And this has been four years now. They've been looking for this project for Four years.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes. What you have to do, you have to go back to the steering committee. You have to look at what we listed that needed to be put in place and look at what we listed at the precautions.

[Mike Axelrod]

And what did you list? What did you list?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Well, we listed that the buffalo have to be put into a hold in Boma and the elephants have to be put into a hold in Boma where they are fed and allowed to climb acclimatize. We said that the community enforcement network and the investigation and intelligence unit had to be in place. We had to have a helicopter for the entire duration of the translocation plus six weeks. And we had to have wing, fixed wing aircraft support for a period of six months. And there were a lot of others.

[Mike Axelrod]

None of what about fencing and, and.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Fencing had to be completed. So on the issue of fencing in 2020, African Parks wanted to push the translocation in 2020. So the DNPW told them, please speak to Mike. What I said to them, if they can put forward the money for the entire fencing of the park, then we would do it. And as soon as it was entirely fenced they could bring the elephant. But the other precautions such as the holding boma and a period of feeding, a period of acclimatization and the release in batches and the helicopter support and the fixed wing support and the budget for all of these other things had to be in place. None of that.

[Mike Axelrod]

I don't think people put elephants in bomas though when they translocate. Man, it's just number one, it's such a big animal. Number two, how do you feed that animal? And I don't think elephants get put in bomas ever in translocation projects.

[Mike Labuskachni]

No, they are put in bomas. So in other, all the other translocations that I done, you first put the animals in a holding boma, even elephants. Yes, because the holding boma isn't, it's not two hectares. It can be part of your boundary fence and you know, so it can be something like 40 hectares.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, okay, okay.

[Mike Labuskachni]

More from acclimatized. And you don't going to, you're not going to shove 150 in there. Remember all these precautions were for 150. None of the precautions were in place and they dumped 263. So there's this. So you put in 20, you feed them, you water them, you watch them, they start communicating with the resident herd. You let them out, your helicopter helps you monitor them and you see everything looks okay. And the next 20 come in so that would be a lengthier and more expensive process.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh for sure. Hundred percent. That's what I was about to say. You know, when you, when you're dealing with relocations, translocations, whatever you want to call it, you move all the animals at once. That's it, that's the money. That's where you know, that's where your logistics are saved, your coordination is saved and your money saved.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Sure. But when you've got people, dense populations of people living on communal land within 6 km of where you releasing elephants from high nutrient plentiful water, protein rich vegetation into depleted nutrient, restrictive water usage, low protein vegetation, you have to put in added precautions or you mustn't do it at all. Those are your options.

[Mike Axelrod]

So let me to the crux of the matter here. The these elephants get moved, I don't see again, I'm going to play devil's advocate for a second because you said there used to be a thousand elephants in Kasungu. It seems like the ecosystem can hold those many elephants. You talking about the interaction between Kazungu and Luanga, I wouldn't actually, in my brain, I was like, well, how do you fence an entire system if you've got that migration, immigration, immigration kind of scenario there? So obviously human wildlife conflict and how do you deal with that? And the coexistence is a, is a very big challenge. But obviously 260 elephants get moved. Who pays for that movement? Is it an African Parks i4 joint project or is it African park specifically?

[Mike Labuskachni]

No, it's a joint project with African Parks being responsible for the capture, IFAW being responsible for the release. But I don't think you understand the types of money that this type of fanciful and unnecessary event attract. Now the other thing that we had found is that you, your elephants that had moved from the Luangwa into Liwandi had moved there because of the high poaching in that central part of the Luangwa Valley. These elephants knew the landscape and had literally tiptoed through the areas of human habitation, which is only a stretch of about 15km into Kosungu National Park. On two occasions those, those elephants knew the landscape intimately. These elephants from Kasungu, who were used to protein rich vegetation and plentiful water, came there utterly bewildered. And so within 24 hours of the first release, the first two people were killed by those translocated elephants killed a good distance outside of the park boundary. Now, any responsible manager would have stopped any further batch coming in immediately. They continued to drop batch after Batch after batch. And that is corporate homicide with aggravated circumstances. It shows it.

[Mike Axelrod]

Mike, where are these elephants coming out of Kazungu? Obviously we've talked about in the history leading up to this point, you've built this eastern fence. This eastern fence is in place. Is this eastern fence still intact at this point?

[Mike Labuskachni]

It's intact. So the elephants are moving into Malawi south and north of the fence. And there's no fence on the Zambian side, so they're pouring into Zambia as well. Searching for food in Miomba woodland. A lot of your trees there try to repel browsing by pushing tannins into their leaves. Your resident Kusungu elephant are used to that, so they browse and graze quickly. Your lawande elephants are completely unused to this. And there's this very bitter taste. They're absolutely bewildered and at the same time they can smell stored maize, stored potatoes, stored groundnuts, and they go invading homes. And As I say, two people are killed within 24 hours and yet this continues.

[Mike Axelrod]

So these elephants are released June 2022. We're sitting in December 2024. Two and a half years later.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Exactly.

[Mike Axelrod]

I'm assuming more than two people have.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Died at the moment. There are 14 people that have died that I am convinced are directly linked to to the chaos that came along with this completely criminal negligent translocation. And 12,000 local people have suffered various forms of damage. We've got over 50 orphans whose lives are completely altered for the worst.

[Mike Axelrod]

Not a good situation, huh?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Not a good situation at all. And it's completely unacceptable that I am unable to get an investigation into what went wrong. I've repeatedly written to the United States government and to IFAW and say the minimum you want to get out of an investigation is to learn what went wrong, that you can avoid that next time. That's why you have an autopsy when somebody has died under mysterious circumstances or when a plane has crashed. There's no fun in sifting through a plane wreck and collecting the bodies and examining them. But it's done so that you build up institutional wisdom and you don't make the same mistake again and again. With i4 claiming that this is a wonderful success, they'd be happy to do it again and stuff the people that die and stuff the elephants that die so that first gain from an investigation, which is simply learning what went wrong so you can avoid it next time. That has not been done. Despite the 14 dead, the 50 plus orphans, the 12,000 people and the $4.4 million damage done to Some of the most marginalized people on the planet. That community resentment will be a great obstacle in the way to the long term sustainability of this landscape.

[Mike Axelrod]

Mike, I want to try and wrap this up. We've been going for quite some time. What are your next steps? And maybe talk about your next steps and then talk maybe generally about your vision for African wildlife conservation.

[Mike Labuskachni]

All right, so my next step is that I'm party to this crime. I brought a bunch of petty criminals into a landscape and the set of circumstances, including the $8 million that I helped raise, allowed them to develop from a bunch of confidence tricksters into a ruthless organized crime network. I was given whistleblower status. I'm determined to get that investigation underway. If all the only thing that we achieve is to have a list of lessons so this appalling situation never happens again. That's enough. There's another thing. I had to accept whistleblower status because I was the only key personnel listed in the cooperative agreement that gave $8 million of taxpayers money to i4. If I do not do my duty, the United States government can punish me. So the strange situation is at the moment I'm demanding an inquiry. If I stop, they've got a right to punish me for not upholding my whistleblower duties. But they won't give me my whistleblower rights and hold the investigation. What is everybody so frightened of? If I'm wrong, any investigation will show I'm wrong and the matter's closed. But so it's the same like when I said you owe me $60,000 plus I want an investigation. I get my $60,000, I don't get the investigation. So I am determined that that investigation will take place and it must take place. So what I'm fighting for is an investigation. And I will accept. If there's a thorough investigation, I will accept it. Now I want to predict something. Part of that investigation. The German Embassy and the British High Commission did a survey in the last two days of September and the first two days of October 2014 by a very credible game total game count crew. That same, that same flight pattern by the same team was done at the same time in 2020. I want that done again in 2025. Now hear you me and see if I'm wrong. If that is done exactly the same by exactly the same crew, find exactly the same transects as was done in 2014. 2020. In 2020, 25 they will find that Malawi has lost 100 elephants. Now where's the justice that very rich people can Kill a hundred elephants and nothing happens to them other than they receive millions of dollars in reward. But a poor Malawian or Zambian gets seven years in jail for killing one elephant if that type of injustice is allowed to continue. And what we've done, we've overthrown the rule of law in this landscape.

[Mike Axelrod]

What about the human rights component? I know you've spoken a little bit to me about the human rights component. Is there anything that you're moving on on that?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yes. Funnily enough, while that translocation was going on, in July 2020 22, the United States Congress passed a law that they didn't want any human rights abuse associated with development aid money. That law was passed by Republicans from Georgia, Kentucky, Texas, as well as Democrats from Massachusetts and San Francisco. There was a beautiful unity of purpose, bipartisan. I'm worried about divisions in America. But when it came to Republicans and Democrats agreeing that development aid money should not be allowed to result in human rights abuses, they agreed fully. And so the investigation will look at those human rights abuses, and then they should pursue that very serious charge against IFAW UN My role is not investigator, judge, jury. I am witness to crimes. I have whistleblower obligations. And I'd like those crimes investigated, please. It's a, it's, it's a humble ambition.

[Mike Axelrod]

Sure, sure. And you're invested, right? You've been invested in the, in the place for a very, very long time. You probably have very dear friends on the landscape. You've seen people, you've seen kids grow up. You've seen, as you said, some families lose loved ones that maybe, whether directly connected or indirectly connected through your network. Right.

[Mike Labuskachni]

It, it, it's very. If I died tomorrow, 85% of the people that shed a tear come from that landscape. The first time I went and spent time there was 1992, you know, 36 years ago. I don't want a bunch of rich, spoiled people to come and rape and pillage a landscape that I've been invested in for so long.

[Mike Axelrod]

Mike, is there anybody that knows the place, knows the people, knows what happens in that area better than you?

[Mike Labuskachni]

Well, there's nobody with one foot in Europe. You see what I mean? In many ways, I, I've got one foot in the European world and I've got one foot in Africa. So from that perspective, no, I mean, obviously, every. I can't claim to suffer as those people have suffered. I can't claim I do have this escape route. You know, I could say, fuck it, and I go get a job and wash my Hands of it. But as I say, I've got a lot to lose in terms of integrity and my sense of honor and I hate bullying. And this is the suppression of the rights of poor people by very, very rich people. And there's no need for that. There's no place for that in 2024, 2025, soon.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah, but in your mind, the elephant translocation could have happened in just a different fashion with precautions in place. And you think it would have worked out what I do you think it was even necessary?

[Mike Labuskachni]

It wasn't necessary. You know when you start a project and you seen and on the record, elephant population has come down from a thousand to 45. The way that it bounced back took me by surprise. But because you there every second of every day you see this develop. So the elephant translocation, there was no need for it other than making money. But if it had been done responsibly as was set out in February 2018, it could have been a success. But there also has to be an investigation and post script. Even if something is successful, one needs to learn from your successes as well as your mistakes. But this business of dumping elephants, making a lot of money, and then treating that landscape like a North Korean missile testing range is totally unacceptable. We have to learn from what our fellow conservationists do.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, well said, Mike. Well said. I'm sure this isn't the last time we will speak Mike on the subject. And I know that this was a long podcast that just set up a lot of context and I asked a bunch of very specific questions that helped sort of lay the foundation of it all. Maybe what we should do next, Mike, is do a podcast that is very specific to the people. I know that you have interviewed a lot of people in this area. You've taken Ed Stoddard up and maybe we do a joint podcast with you and Ed and we say, okay, here are the things that you've seen on the ground. So I appreciate your time. I appreciate you setting everything up for us, Mike, and, and all the information.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Yeah, and sorry about all the glitches. I mean, as I. My daughter will come visit me in two weeks time. I'll show her the computer and she'll probably see what's wrong. She'll tell me to get a new one.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's all fine. It's all fine. The phone worked just perfectly.

[Mike Labuskachni]

Want to make some sense of all of that, eh?

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.