Episode 550 - Ed Stoddard || A Human Rights Travesty, Part 2

Summary

Blood Origins Podcast Episode 550 Summary: Ed Stoddard || A Human Rights Travesty, Part 2

Introduction

In Episode 550 of the Blood Origins podcast, titled "Ed Stoddard || A Human Rights Travesty, Part 2," host Mike Axelrod engages in a profound discussion with esteemed journalist Ed Stoddard. This episode delves deep into a significant conservation controversy surrounding the translocation of elephants in Kasungu National Park, Malawi, and its dire repercussions on local communities. Ed Stoddard, known for his incisive reporting on environmental and conservation issues, shares firsthand accounts and critical insights that shed light on the complex interplay between wildlife conservation and human rights.

Background: Introducing Ed Stoddard

Ed Stoddard is a Johannesburg-based journalist originally from Nova Scotia, Canada. With a distinguished career as a Reuters correspondent spanning 24 years, Stoddard now contributes to the Daily Maverick, a prominent South African online publication. His work extends to major US outlets such as Undark, Mother Jones, Salon, Slate, and The Atlantic, primarily focusing on wildlife and environmental issues.

Notable Quote:

Ed Stoddard [04:37]: "I'm a Johannesburg-based journalist... I also hunt and I have. And so in terms of the various branches that come out from the wider conservation tree, I'm, I suppose in the sustainable use camp, you could call it."

The Elephant Translocation Controversy

The core of the episode revolves around the controversial translocation of over 260 elephants to Kasungu National Park, Malawi—a project touted as the largest elephant translocation ever. However, this initiative has sparked significant conflict due to inadequate planning and execution.

Notable Quote:

Mike Axelrod [00:30]: "There's a reason why I started Blood Origins, and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting."

On-the-Ground Observations: A Human Rights Crisis

Ed Stoddard recounts his firsthand experience visiting the translocation site alongside Mike Labaskny, the host of the preceding podcast episode focused on Kazungu National Park. During their stay in the Zambian side of the park, Stoddard observed extensive damage inflicted by elephants on local communities.

Notable Quote:

Ed Stoddard [11:23]: "Kasungu national park is a park in Malawi... translocated over 260 elephants... But the, the problem was, is that Kasungu is not completely fenced."

Impact on Local Communities

The absence of effective fencing on the Zambian side has led to rampant human-wildlife conflict. Elephants have been destroying maize crops—the staple food for the region—and demolishing modest brick homes. These actions have not only compromised the economic stability of subsistence farmers but have also resulted in tragic loss of life.

Notable Quotes:

Ed Stoddard [19:29]: "I saw the smashed houses... the destroyed crops... and the fresh dung tells it all."

Ed Stoddard [22:50]: "These people had never seen an elephant before in their life... their entire social structure... has been completely disrupted."

Criticism of IFAW and Conservation Practices

Stoddard is openly critical of the International Fund for Animal Welfare (IFAW), labeling their efforts as "conservation imperialism." He argues that IFAW's lack of proper consultation with local communities and governments has exacerbated the situation, leading to unnecessary suffering for both humans and elephants.

Notable Quote:

Ed Stoddard [28:13]: "IFAW has shown itself to be callously racist... they put out some statements saying... it's just like, really, that is such a racist statement to make."

The Debate Over "Room to Roam"

A significant portion of the discussion centers around the concept of "room to roam" for elephants, as advocated by IFAW. Stoddard challenges the feasibility of this approach in densely populated and economically strained regions like Southern Africa. He contends that without adequate barriers, elephants will continue to encroach upon human habitats, leading to further conflicts.

Notable Quotes:

Ed Stoddard [31:04]: "South Africa's response is to fence the animals in. If you release 100 elephants in Mississippi and let them run around, the outcome would be disastrous."

Mike Axelrod [41:29]: "It's a sad situation... you have to focus on human-wildlife conflict first and foremost and how to mitigate it."

Human and Animal Suffering: A No-Win Situation

Both host and guest agree that the current situation results in a lose-lose scenario. Humans face loss of livelihood, property, and lives, while elephants suffer from habitat loss and potential retaliatory killings. The psychological toll on communities, including PTSD and societal disruption, further compounds the tragedy.

Notable Quote:

Ed Stoddard [41:38]: "Human wildlife conflict, everybody loses. There's no winners."

Legal and Community Responses

Looking forward, Stoddard mentions ongoing legal actions aimed at compelling IFAW to rectify the situation, potentially through constructing proper fencing. He also highlights the frustration and anger among local governments and communities, particularly the Zambian authorities who view the translocation as a significant misstep.

Notable Quote:

Ed Stoddard [36:18]: "There is legal action in the offering, which will be a long process. But it can also, among other things, compel IFAW to build a fence to make things right."

Conclusion: Pathways to Resolution

The episode underscores the necessity for holistic conservation strategies that prioritize both animal welfare and human rights. Effective communication, proper planning, and genuine collaboration with local communities are essential to prevent such tragedies. Mike Axelrod and Ed Stoddard advocate for a balanced approach that recognizes the intertwined destinies of wildlife and human populations.

Notable Quote:

Mike Axelrod [41:35]: "The idea of room to roam... is a good one, but you have to understand the human landscape... and how to mitigate conflict."

Final Thoughts

Episode 550 of Blood Origins serves as a poignant reminder of the complexities inherent in wildlife conservation. Through Ed Stoddard's compelling reportage, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the unintended consequences that can arise from well-meaning but poorly executed conservation efforts. The episode calls for introspection within the conservation community to ensure that future initiatives are both ethically and practically sound, safeguarding the interests of all stakeholders involved.

References

• Podcast Information:
  • Title: Blood Origins
  • Host/Author: Blood Origins Inc.
  • Episode: Episode 550 - Ed Stoddard || A Human Rights Travesty, Part 2
  • Release Date: April 3, 2025
• Transcript Excerpts: Provided by the user.

Transcript

[Mike Axelrod]

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[Mike Axelrod]

Ed Stoddard is a journalist out of South Africa. He writes for the Daily Maverick and he's interested in all sorts of issues. Mining, environment, sustainable use, you name it. I'm a big fan of Ed's writing and I wanted to have him on this podcast As a follow up to Mike labaskney's podcast about Kazungu national park in Malawi. Ed was invited up by Mike to see the travesty that is happening on the Zambian side of this national park. This national park occurs in Malawi and I4 translocated. I think it's the largest translocation of elephants. Every ever is 256elephants or something like that. Well, there has been, according to Mike and now Ed, a grave injustice on the people surrounding the park in both Malawi as well as Zambia. And they're looking for justice. And so I wanted to have Ed on as a first witness observer of what's happening on the ground. If you haven't listened to Mike labischagni's podcast, I would pause this right now and I would go back and listen to Mike's and then listen to Ed's. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins, and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting.

[Ed Stoddard]

It brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals. How do I start it? Brittany? My name. Does my hair look okay?

[Mike Axelrod]

My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to hunter. Well, let's make sure this whole thing works properly. All right, we're rocking and rolling with gas now. Ed started.

[Ed Stoddard]

We are.

[Mike Axelrod]

You got a vape? You Got a. You're in, you're in fine form this evening.

[Ed Stoddard]

Yeah, well, yeah, I've come off the wagon now. So again, January.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, you get to talk about something cool today instead of being at a mining in Darbo all day.

[Ed Stoddard]

Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, good. Ed started. Welcome to the Blood Origins Podcast. Probably this is your first time on the Blood Origins Podcast, correct?

[Ed Stoddard]

It certainly is.

[Mike Axelrod]

Probably not the last time that we speak because you are. You get yourself involved in, dare I say, controversial issues.

[Ed Stoddard]

Yes, I would say they're controversial because people have a range of perspectives on wildlife and conservation issues.

[Mike Axelrod]

Is that your general interest?

[Ed Stoddard]

It's one of many, yes, but it's one of my focus areas, that's for sure. I mean, as a journalist I throw a wide net, if I can say, say that. I mean, I'm, I'm also a financial journalist. So I do try to connect, I do try to connect the dots though, between the economy, business and the social side with the water, wildlife and conservation side of things. Because, you know, they all have to. They're all connected.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, 100%. 100%. Well, Ed Stoddard, welcome to the Blood Origins Podcast. Would you introduce yourself what you do on a daily basis?

[Ed Stoddard]

Yeah. So at Stoddard. I'm a Johannesburg based journalist. I hail from Nova Scotia in Canada. I was a Reuters correspondent for 24 years. I took early retirement a few years ago. I mostly write for the South African online publication the Daily Maverick. These days I've been published in US publications such as Undark, Mother Jones, Salon, Slate, the Atlantic and mostly on wildlife and environmental issues. And I. Yeah, and I'm a keen fly fisherman and I also hunt and I have. And so in terms of the various branches that come out from the wider conservation tree, I'm, I suppose in the sustainable use camp, you could call it.

[Mike Axelrod]

Has anybody called out your journalistic integrity because you happen to be a hunter?

[Ed Stoddard]

No, in fact. And in fact, you know, I mean, if somebody is strongly opposed to hunting, then they're also biased. Right. I mean, we all have our, have, have our, I wouldn't call it agendas, but we all have our perspectives.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yep, yep.

[Ed Stoddard]

And so, no, I haven't been called, I haven't been called out on that. Look, I do a lot more fly fishing than I do hunting. Partly because, you know, so well, partly because, as you know, in South Africa, you. I do it 12 months of the year. I mean, I'm going bass fishing tomorrow, for example.

[Mike Axelrod]

Did you happen to catch any yellow fish whilst we were together in November on the V River.

[Ed Stoddard]

No I didn't and this season so far has been a bit elusive to me. For yellow fish though this month in calendar year so far because I do keep a fairly detailed outdoor diary. I have quite a few barbel which is a kind of catfish and bass so far this year and it's all strictly fly fishing.

[Mike Axelrod]

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[Ed Stoddard]

Yes, that's right. I was there in the last week of June on this. Yes, that's right. On. On the Zambian side. And so just to put it into context for your listeners. So Kasungu national park is a park in Malawi.

[Mike Axelrod]

It.

[Ed Stoddard]

It borders with Zambia.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's.

[Ed Stoddard]

But the park is completely in Malawi. And a couple years ago, the International Fund for Animal Welfare, IFAW and African Parks, although the latter have since removed themselves from the equation, interestingly. But anyway, translocated over 260 elephants to Kasungu from another national park in Malawi. All great. It was built, I believe is the biggest elephant translocation ever. But the, the problem was, is that Kasungu is not completely fenced. And the Zambian side, there's no fence. And what you have on the Zambian and on the Zambian side, and I could see it clearly because I was in several places there, you have, you can see the park line quite clearly. Is there a fence?

[Mike Axelrod]

Is it a fence? No, that's what I'm saying.

[Ed Stoddard]

There is no fence. There is no fence. And so you can see. But you can see the, the park line and hence the international border as well, quite clearly because there's a tree line. And the reason why the tree line sticks out is because you have cultivated fields right up to the edge of it, which are mostly cultivated by poor subsistence farmers who rely on. On the rains. And so what could go wrong? So, of course, lots of things went wrong. One of the factors, of course, was the intense El Nino last year, which caused devastation to crops in southern Africa particularly.

[Mike Axelrod]

It was a very, very big sustained drought in southern Africa.

[Ed Stoddard]

That's right. There was a big sustained drought during the summer growing season here last year. So for folks up north, we are currently in summertime here. Right. And El Nino really unleashed its clause. In February and March last year, Zambia lost about half of its maize crop. And maize is really. And white maize is really the staple crop in this region and outside of southern Africa, it's really only growing in Mexico and a little bit in the US and it's growing in Mexico for things like tortilla. Tortillas and things like that. And it's growing in the U.S. you know, for Taco Bell and things like that. Right. And. And for the, you know, and for the Latino population in America. But here it's really, it's, it's, it's the staple crop. It's what you, you know, people live and die by it. Literally.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, they. Every meal, they're literally eating a maize meal, which is almost like a. It's not a porridge, but it's a, it's a maze. It's like grits, but finer than grits that come. That clumps up that they can use, and they can dip it in tomato relish or, you know, if they've got protein and make a meat stew, they can dip it into gravy and put meat in it and stuff.

[Ed Stoddard]

Exactly. So what happened was.

[Mike Axelrod]

So Mike invited you up. Why did Mike invite you up?

[Ed Stoddard]

Well, Mike invited me up because he saw an opinion piece I wrote about the issue, and that was based on what I had seen from other reporting. So actually, one of his daughters, who lives in New Zealand, reached out to me, and I spoke to Daily Maverick, and I managed to cobble together a trip. We flew to Lusaka. We drove east to the area. Mike and I actually camped out two nights illegally in the park. We pitched small tents just across the Zambian border and, like, a few meters in the park. And, you know, what I saw certainly corroborated everything that Mike was saying. I described it as a landscape of fear and loathing had been unleashed on those poor people. So these are people who almost everybody I spoke to had never seen an elephant before in their life. And this is one of the things, right? So people in the west sometimes have this kind of Tarzan or Disney view of Africa that, you know, that didn't. Where poor black Africans are like the extras on the tv, on the set, you know. But these people, of course, had never seen an elephant before in their life. And suddenly they're subjected to. Their crops are being raided. They're very modest brick homes are being smashed and destroyed because they often store their. Their. Their grain in their homes, their maize, in this case, their withered maize harvest. They. Many people there used to walk around at night all the time. They had no fear. People have been reduced to the indignity of actually urinating in buckets in their homes because these people don't have indoor plumbing. And so they're doing that at night because they're afraid to go outside. And so the entire social structure of the region, as well as the economy and their life source, has been completely disrupted by this botched translocation done by an animal welfare organization that cares about. Claims to care about animals, and we'll get to that. But shows absolute disdain for the lives of poor black Africans who they regard as powerless because they are poor black Africans and so they believe they are voiceless.

[Mike Axelrod]

Mike, you saw this. You saw the maize fields being trampled. You saw the houses. Oh, sorry, I thought just Ed. Correct. Ed, you saw this yourself. Crop fields being demolished, houses.

[Ed Stoddard]

Yeah, I saw the smashed houses. I saw places where elephants had just been a day or two before. And you could see the fresh tracks, the fresh dung. Yeah. And you could see the destroyed crops and especially the fresh dung. I don't claim to be a great tracker, so to determine the age of a track for me, even though I do a bit of hunting, that's not my area of expertise. But, you know, the fresh dung tells it all you can tell when an elephant has had a bowel, probably had a bowel movement a couple of days ago, if you know what I mean.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Ed Stoddard]

So right there in the fields, you could see it, the smashed houses. And of course, I believe the body count now in terms of human lives is. I believe there's about, there's been 12 people who've been killed. 11 or 12 have been killed by the elephants. One man was killed by a hippo that appears to have been kind of dislodged by the elephants. One man was recently, well late last year, was killed by a hyena. He was basically disemboweled and castrated. And, you know, the theory is that the hyenas, for whatever reason, are following the elephants out of the park. And I saw an example of that one night quite starkly when I was with Mike and I wrote about it. But anyway, we were in this one village that was really the back of the beyond and the park was about 400 meters away. Again, this tell tale, the, you know, the tree line is there. We had pitched our tents in the park and we were sitting around with the village head woman in this village, we were eating goat and maize meal. And suddenly there, and it was after dark and suddenly there was a massive commotion. And then we realized we were told that hyenas had just come in and snatched a goat, a live goat, I mean, not the one we were eating, right. And made off for the park. And kind of to my astonishment, three of the young men, we're sitting around a big fire, pulled sticks out of the farm like torte uses torches. And one of them grabbed an axe and they made off after the hyenas because it was a pair. Jeez. And Mike said to me, he said, well, you know, that goat's a goner. And I said, yeah, I'm pretty sure about 15, 20 minutes later, they came back with a disembowelled goat. They had gone into the bush at night to do battle with hyenas to get their goat back because livestock, in this case goats, was the only asset they had left because of the devastation wrought by the elephants and the dread, that two punch combination. And the goat, of course, had been this disembowel, sorry. Because that's what hyenas do. They go for the liver, they go for the heart, that kind of thing. For me, it was, it's, I, I, I've reported in Africa for a long time. I've reported it in conflict zones in DRC and Nigeria and things like that. And this is just one of the craziest things I'd ever seen happen. And it just underscored the desperation of these poor people.

[Mike Axelrod]

And tell me about Mike's relationships with these people. It sounded like Mike had been there, he'd been living with them for many, many years. What did you see and experience?

[Ed Stoddard]

Mike. Everybody calls him Father Mike. He is hugely respected. And his NGO is called Warm Heart. And, you know, people can see that. And, and, and Malawi, of course, is called the warm heart of Africa. And, you know, he has a big heart and, and, and, and people can intuitively understand that.

[Mike Axelrod]

Is Mike doing this just for claim for fame? Like, I want to get my name out there and I just want to be the big man in charge.

[Ed Stoddard]

No, no, I, I don't think so. He, he doesn't strike me as being that kind of person at all. Yeah, trust me, he's very committed to this issue. He's. And spend a lot of his own money as well as his time on it. This is something that he feels passionately about. I mean, I spent six days with him up there, so I know, and I've had many interactions with him since. I mean, on, on WhatsApp and email and what have you. And this is something that, and, and, and this is something he feels strongly about because he, because he feels that grave injustice has been done.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. Why? That was my next question. Why do you think he feels so strongly about it? That was my next question. Why do you think he feels so strongly about it?

[Ed Stoddard]

Well, because he sees a grave injustice being done. Because grave injustice has been done. These people. I have a concept. I call the poverty, the final poverty line. So basically, especially in Africa, but not just Africa, but for the most part, I mean, there are parts of Asia and I suppose even South America. What might apply. But if you live in constant fear of big animal attack, crocodile, hippo, lion, leopard, elephant, buffalo, then chances are you are among the poorest of the poor, because these are the people who are exposed to such attack. And so you actually inhabit a terrifying place that I call the faunal poverty line. You're below it. The usual solution, people rise above the faunal poverty line by eliminating the source of their terror. And this is also not the. Around Kasunga. We have no idea how many of these elephants have been killed either by poisoning or shooting. And you know, I might recall it, retaliatory attacks. But it's like, it's, it's, it's defensive. I mean, this is what people do. I'm a subscriber to the overkill theory regarding the police deceit, extinctions, which holds, you know, that as, as, as Homo sapiens moved out of Africa 60, 70, 80,000 years ago, one of the striking features of biogeography is that big animals went extinct in their wake, be it mammoths, mastodons, other elephant species, numerous carnivores. And one of the things that these animals all have in common is that they are dangerous from a human perspective. So this is how you raise yourself above the faunal poverty line, besides creating a barrier between Homo sapiens and big dangerous wildlife. You exterminate the big dangerous wildlife because you don't want your kids or kin, you don't want your children playing around with that. And none of iFaw's diner, sorry, donors in the west would tolerate a situation where their children couldn't go to play because, you know, they might get trampled by an elephant or eaten by a lion, but somehow it's okay for poor black Africans to be subjected to that terror.

[Mike Axelrod]

Do you think, you think any of IFAW's donors know the consequence of their, say, donations?

[Ed Stoddard]

Well, I mean, I'm not the only person who's written about it. The Financial Times has as well, the Guardian, it's certainly been on the radar screen of the UK press. And I recently met up with a US conservation and wildlife journalist here in Johannesburg who was also recently up with Mike Button Mulally. So she's going to be writing for a US publication about this issue. So I would hope that IFAW's donors are starting to realize the consequences of its really reckless and irresponsible actions, which, you know, Mike calls it conservation imperialism. And, you know, it certainly does show a complete disregard for the lives of poor Africans. And it also, you know, shows a disregard for elephant welfare.

[Mike Axelrod]

I assume none of this. No consultation was done on the Zambian side?

[Ed Stoddard]

No consultation was done on the Zambian side. I actually spoke to one of the local chiefs as well as a local politician, and if consultation is done, it will be through them and then to the water community.

[Mike Axelrod]

And so none was done through them.

[Ed Stoddard]

His chief was like adamant that they were just told that this was going to happen. That was the extent of the consultation. I know IFAW has claimed that there's been widespread consultation and my reporting on the ground suggests that that is a steaming pile of elephant dung.

[Mike Axelrod]

Id. Why did they build a fence? Why don't they just fence it?

[Ed Stoddard]

Although the other thing is, remember IFAW is all about this whole room to roam concept. Elephants need room to roam. So it Would cost money. And it would have delayed the construction. I mean, sorry. It would have delayed the translocation. And I suppose they want to do this to impress their donors so they would open their wallets.

[Mike Axelrod]

Mike, what do you think about that? Room to row.

[Ed Stoddard]

Mike.

[Mike Axelrod]

I keep calling you Mike. Ed. Ed, what do you think about this room to roam idea? Especially in the. Like that African population currently 2.3 billion, predicted to be 4.55 billion by 2050.

[Ed Stoddard]

Well, there's just less room to roam for elephants. And you know, I mean. Well, I mean, the, the while it's a noble goal to aspire to, you know, the South African model is basically defense elephants, actually defense big five, except you can't do that with leopards. Right. And that's, you know, and it's revealing because, you know, South Africa is the most industrialized and advanced economy on the continent. And that is the response of a relatively affluent industrialized economy to the. Which also, you know, has as a significant commercial agriculture sector, which is capital intensive. Its response to the presence of big dangerous animals is to create barriers, is to fence the animals in. And if people in the west think, oh my God, well, it's like, you know, you had elephants in Germany at one point, but you're not going to tolerate them there now. Where I'm from, in Nova Scotia, we had mammoths, but if anybody said, we're going to come and release 50 elephants in Nova Scotia now and just let them, you know, run around, give them room to roam, I mean, you know, it would be inconceivable. Right. You're in Mississippi, right?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yep.

[Ed Stoddard]

Oh, can you imagine that? Okay, we're gonna release 100. We're gonna release 100 elephants in Mississippi and we're just gonna let them run around.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, the timber industry would not be happy.

[Ed Stoddard]

Well, you'd have 100 dead elephants, right?

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, yeah, very quickly. Especially with the rednecks around here.

[Ed Stoddard]

Never. Never mind. I mean, anybody, right? I mean, absolutely. I mean, that, that's something that, that in the very polarized political environment in America right now, that's something that Republicans and Democrats would both agree on as Prophet's revealing that apartheid ended over 30 years ago. But fencing in South Africa is something that the ANC has maintained. It's one of those. It's a conservation policy that they inherited from the apartheid regime that they're like, yeah, of course, because, you know, because people get killed. It's putting, you know, it is putting human life above. Well, it's showing respect for human life. Basically.

[Mike Axelrod]

Did eiford just did Eiford just not think about humans or the consequence of the action on humans?

[Ed Stoddard]

I'm sure they did. And also, I mean, you know, I pointed out, I mean, they put out some statements saying, you know, that this is what happens in Africa. It's just like, really, that is such a racist statement to make and which is interesting because, you know, I follow consider itself to be part of the progressive left, but it's actually showing itself to be incredibly racist towards black African rural residents. So part of the progressive left at all. You know, but that's what the way people, you know, but that's the way, that's how people see things. Right. They see, you know, the bunny huggers are all part of the left and the hunters are all part of the right. Are all part of the right. And, and it's very different, you know, socially. I'm actually very liberal and progressive, but I hunt and I fish. You know, I don't go to church, but hunt and fish and you know, and I'm very liberal and you know, and I don't like to use the term, I believe in climate change. I mean, I mean, you know, I know climate change is happening because of the, because of the science behind it and because, and because a hunt and fish, I, I can, I, I can see it, I can see it over the, I can see how the climate is changing over, over the decades.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yep.

[Ed Stoddard]

And it's one of the. But, sorry, that's a bit of a digression, but, but you know, IFAW has shown itself to be callously racist actually on this front. I mean, you know, they may as well put on a hood and burn across there.

[Mike Axelrod]

What's the next steps here, Ed? Like, what do we do?

[Ed Stoddard]

Well, like I said, there's a couple of things that are bubbling which I'm privy to, but there is legal action in the offering, which will be a long process. But it can also, among other things, compel IFAW to build a fence to make things right. And I don't know, I don't know how, and I don't exactly know currently now how the Zambian government sees things. I know the Zambian government, I don't think is very happy with what's going on and within sadc. So for your regency, basically the Southern Africa kind of political grouping which often likes to show solidarity, I think the Zambians are very angry at Malawian government over this. I mean, Malawians, by the way, are also suffering because lots of a big chunk of Kasungu along on the Malawian side is also not fenced.

[Mike Axelrod]

So are they seeing human wildlife conflict too?

[Ed Stoddard]

Yes, in a big way. I mean, like I say, I mean, I only, I saw that in Zambia, I just camped on the edge in Malawi. But on the Malawian side, there's also been a significant increase in human wildlife conflicts. My understanding. And I did also speak to people who came from the Malawian side across the border to speak with me. I mean, including one woman who's, you know, her infant son who was on her back, never got to meet his father because while she was pregnant his father was killed by an elephant on the Malawian side.

[Mike Axelrod]

So there has been people deaths on the Malawi side too?

[Ed Stoddard]

Yes, yes, there have been, yes, there have been deaths on both sides because of this completely ill conceived elephant translocation. I mean, you know, I mean, these kinds of translocations and what's called rewilding. I mean, if this stuff is done properly, it's obviously it's a force for good. But, but again, you know, I mean, I mean, some rewilders in their wildest dreams would like to reintroduce elephants to Europe and North America and things like that, and rhinos, because, you know, you know, because it went extinct in the Pleistocene. And there is a school of thought, it's, it's contentious, but there's a school of thought that it wasn't climate change that did that, but that it was early human hunters. And just to return to that subject, I've scoured this academic literature quite thoroughly and none of the paleontologists who study this have suggested to me, which is the obvious reason, is that human wildlife conflict, I mean, if that's the case, because, you know, because if people were, you know, 11,000 years ago were killing mammoths and mastodons in North America and wiping them out just to eat, I mean, there weren't, there weren't enough humans to consume all that flesh. Right. I mean, you know, they weren't like Jabba the Hut, you know what I mean?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

[Ed Stoddard]

Right. The only sensible explanation is, is, is human wildlife conflict, as far as I can see. And, and, and if you look what happens in societies that face human wildlife conflict, that's what happens. People want to kill the animals that, you know, are going to eat their children or trample their children. It's a perfectly understandable response.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a sad situation that's happening. Obviously, you know, the, the idea, as we've, we've both said the idea of room to roam, the idea of, of relocating or, you know, reintroducing animals into certain areas is a good one. It's a laudable goal. But you have to understand the human landscape, the social landscape in which you're adding these wildlife to. And you have to, almost at the forefront of your thinking, focus on this human wildlife conflict first and foremost and how to mitigate it.

[Ed Stoddard]

Yes, of course. For both animals and people.

[Mike Axelrod]

Correct.

[Ed Stoddard]

Because the animals are losers as well.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yep.

[Ed Stoddard]

Right. You know, everybody. Human wildlife conflict, everybody loses. Right. There's no winners.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yep.

[Ed Stoddard]

Ultimately, you know, and it's. And it's. And it's. And it's terrifying. People don't. I mean, people will suffer from PTSD and things like that. People don't realize that. I mean, the great Vietnam War movie Apocalypse now from 1979, there's a scene in it where this guy called Chef, and he's from Louisiana, is walking with the officer who's portrayed by Martin Sheen, and they're going to search for mangoes in the jungle. And this guy has just seen so much crazy stuff. I mean, he's seen a colonel take a. Take a beach from the Viet Cong because he wants to surf there. Right. I mean, he's seen complete madness, but he's still okay. But they think they hear the Viet Cong in the jungle, so they got their weapons at their ready. It's because of the noises that the animals are making and what springs out at them. A tiger. And it just drives him over the edge. He goes completely crazy. He goes completely insane because he's been charged by something that wants to eat him. That's the thing that's pushed him over the edge. And, you know, for me, that's one of the most insightful scenes from that movie. And I don't know if Francis Ford Coppola had meant, you know, to drive that kind of message home, but he actually did. And you can. I mean, it's easy to Google tiger scene, Apocalypse Now. Right. You can see it on YouTube. But, you know, this guy goes complete. That's what pushes him over the edge. So it's. It's an absolutely terrifying realm. Of course. I mean, you know, if a dog comes at you, a domestic dog comes at you, you're frightened. If. If it's. If it's hair is. If it's Keith or burdens. And it's. I mean, so you can imagine an elephant or tiger or a lion. It's a terrifying way to live. And again, you know, nobody in the west wants to subject their children to that kind of risk or terror. But somehow it seems acceptable for Africans because, you know, because. Well, because they've always lived like that or whatever is this kind of stereotype. And like I say, I mean, in the case of the Zambian side of Kosungu, none of these people ever laid eyes on an elephant before. They'd seen them in books or documentaries. I mean, elephants were as alien to them as somebody living in Mississippi or Nova Scotia.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, that's a great point. It's a great point. Well, Ed, we're going to be tracking this pretty closely, and we may have you back as things start developing. We'll probably have Mike back as things develop. We may have you and Mike together, but.

[Ed Stoddard]

Oh, okay. I've got more stories coming, coming out about this.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, I know you do. I know you do. Well, let us know how else we can help you. We're a big fan of you, big fan of your writings. I appreciate the fact that we got all the technological challenges out of the way.

[Ed Stoddard]

Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

We managed to do this. So thank you. Really appreciate you.

[Ed Stoddard]

Oh, yeah, thank you. I was glad to speak about this issue to your audience.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening. As always, leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.

[Ed Stoddard]

Sa.