Episode 551 - Christy Plott Gilmore + Patrick Aust || Use It Or Lose It

Summary

Podcast Summary: Blood Origins, Episode 551 - Christy Plott Gilmore + Patrick Aust || Use It Or Lose It

Introduction

In Episode 551 of Blood Origins, titled "Use It Or Lose It," host Mike Axelrod engages in a compelling discussion with two esteemed guests: Christy Plott Gilmore, a fourth-generation alligator and crocodile industry specialist, and Dr. Patrick Aust, the director of the African Institute of Applied Herpetology. The conversation delves into the sustainable use of reptilian species, particularly alligators and crocodiles, and explores innovative conservation models that integrate hunting and farming with wildlife preservation.

Sustainable Use of Reptiles

The core of the episode centers around the concept of sustainable use as a viable conservation strategy. Both Christy and Patrick advocate for the responsible utilization of reptilian species to ensure their conservation and provide economic benefits to local communities.

Notable Quote:

• Patrick Aust (04:43): "It's more than just killing animals."

Patrick explains how sustainable use goes beyond mere exploitation, emphasizing the role it plays in conservation and community development. He highlights the adaptability of reptiles to sustainable farming practices, which can alleviate pressure on wild populations.

Translating Southeast Asian Practices to Africa

Patrick Aust shares his experience in Southeast Asia, where sustainable reptile farming has thrived due to the region's favorable ecological and economic conditions. He discusses how these successful models are being adapted to the African context to address similar challenges in conservation and economic sustainability.

Notable Quote:

• Patrick Aust (06:58): "Building wildlife economies is the only way forward."

He outlines the unique attributes of reptiles that make them ideal for sustainable farming, such as their high reproductive rates and resilience to environmental fluctuations. This adaptability allows for consistent production without exacerbating wild population declines.

Alligator Farming and Conservation in Louisiana

Christy Plott Gilmore provides an exemplary case study of alligator farming in Louisiana. She explains how the industry's sustainable practices have not only preserved but also increased wild alligator populations.

Key Points:

• High Hatch Rates: Through controlled farming, hatch rates can reach up to 95-97%, compared to less than 5% in the wild due to predation and flooding.
• Economic Incentives: Farmers collect alligator eggs, ensuring that landowners receive financial benefits, which in turn incentivizes them to protect wetlands and support conservation efforts.
• Population Rebound: Since the 1960s, wild alligator populations in the southeastern United States have surged from under 100,000 to approximately 5 million, largely due to sustainable farming practices.

Notable Quote:

• Christy Plott Gilmore (27:30): "The way the program in Louisiana works... has actually increased the population."

Challenges and Misconceptions

The episode also addresses the significant challenges posed by opposition from animal rights NGOs and the fashion industry's recent moves to ban exotic animal skins. Christy and Patrick discuss how misinformation and lack of understanding about sustainable use impede effective conservation efforts.

Notable Quote:

• Christy Plott Gilmore (49:10): "They think we're saving animals by exploiting them for fashion, but there's a flip side where we are investing in conservation."

Impact of Fashion Industry Bans

Mike Axelrod raises concerns about London Fashion Week's ban on exotic animal skins, questioning its implications for sustainable use models. The guests argue that such bans are based on incomplete information and a misunderstanding of how sustainable use contributes to conservation.

Notable Quote:

• Mike Axelrod (45:19): "...most conservationists, if not all of them, are against a ban on trade because it's bad for business if the species is doing well."

Christy emphasizes the need for education and direct engagement with decision-makers to convey the nuanced benefits of sustainable use.

Personal Anecdotes

Mike shares a personal story about overcoming his fear of snakes during his academic journey, highlighting the transformative power of hands-on experience in understanding and appreciating reptiles.

Notable Quote:

• Mike Axelrod (12:59): "If I see a snake, I don't run from it. I'm more curious than anything, obviously with a healthy respect."

Examples of Successful Conservation Models

Both guests provide multiple examples of successful sustainable use programs:

• Louisiana Alligator Program: Demonstrates how industry-funded initiatives can effectively manage and bolster wild populations.
• Northern Territory Saltwater Crocodile Program: Shows similar success using different management strategies tailored to local contexts.
• Siamese Crocodile Case: Highlights the importance of involving local communities in conservation through economic incentives, contrasting it with unsuccessful models lacking community engagement.

Notable Quote:

• Patrick Aust (32:10): "In Africa and South America, it's about putting money in the hands of local communities to conserve dangerous animals threatening their livelihood."

The Disconnect Between Conservationists and Public Perception

Christy and Patrick critique the disconnect between frontline conservation efforts and the perceptions shaped by NGOs and media. They argue that animal rights organizations often lack on-the-ground experience and fail to support long-term, sustainable conservation projects.

Notable Quote:

• Christy Plott Gilmore (47:20): "They don't understand the technical threads and the work that goes into it."

Patrick adds that ineffective conservation stories by some NGOs can undermine community trust and hinder genuine conservation progress.

Notable Quote:

• Patrick Aust (52:38): "Their whole philosophy is just out of touch with what's happening on the ground."

Conclusion

The episode culminates with a call to action for better education and collaboration between industry, scientists, and local communities to promote sustainable use as a legitimate and effective conservation strategy. Mike emphasizes the importance of authentic storytelling and direct engagement to counteract misinformation and foster understanding.

Notable Quote:

• Christy Plott Gilmore (50:06): "We need to start doing [direct engagement and education]."

Closing Remarks

Mike expresses gratitude to his guests and underscores the significance of the discussions for advancing sustainable conservation practices. He encourages listeners to support and advocate for informed conservation models that integrate sustainable use.

Final Quote:

• Mike Axelrod (57:11): "Do what's right to convey the truth around hunting."

---

Key Takeaways:

• Sustainable use of reptiles, when managed properly, can significantly contribute to conservation and local economies.
• Successful models like Louisiana’s alligator farming demonstrate how industry and government collaboration can restore and enhance wild populations.
• Misinformation and opposition from certain NGOs and industries pose challenges to effective conservation through sustainable use.
• Education, direct engagement, and transparent communication are crucial for shifting perceptions and promoting sustainable conservation strategies.

Notable Quotes Compilation:

1. Patrick Aust (04:43): "It's more than just killing animals."
2. Patrick Aust (06:58): "Building wildlife economies is the only way forward."
3. Christy Plott Gilmore (27:30): "The way the program in Louisiana works... has actually increased the population."
4. Mike Axelrod (45:19): "...most conservationists, if not all of them, are against a ban on trade because it's bad for business if the species is doing well."
5. Christy Plott Gilmore (47:20): "They don't understand the technical threads and the work that goes into it."
6. Patrick Aust (52:38): "Their whole philosophy is just out of touch with what's happening on the ground."
7. Christy Plott Gilmore (50:06): "We need to start doing [direct engagement and education]."
8. Mike Axelrod (57:11): "Do what's right to convey the truth around hunting."

This summary encapsulates the essence of the episode, providing listeners with an insightful overview of the discussions on sustainable use and conservation of reptilian species.

Transcript

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[Robbie Kroger]

Have a fun podcast for you guys today. Many of you may have heard or read about the British Fashion Council announcing a ban on exotic animal skins like crocodile, alligator and snake beginning in 2025. No exotic animal skins can walk on British Fashion Week Runway. So no skins on London Fashion Week that started with the first February Fashion Week in London and will continue for the foreseeable future. There has been a big outcry about this and Robbie is joined today from two specialists in the field. Christy Plot Gilmore is a fourth generation alligator and crocodile industry specialist. Her family has owned a tannery for generations. She holds various membership positions in a number of conservation and fashion organizations including the IUCN SSC Crocodile Specialist Group, the Southeast Asian Reptiles Conservation alliance, the Louisiana Alligator Farmer and Ranchers association, and the International Crocodilian Farmers Association, Leather Industries of America Accessories Council, Fashion Group International. I could go on and on. Christy is somewhat of a phenom in this subject matter. She is joined by Dr. Patrick Oust, who is the director of the African Institute of Applied Herpetology, which of course is the study of reptiles. He has really become an expert in some innovative solutions having to do with reptiles developing new economic and food production systems based on reptiles to address the food, water, energy nexus to global challenges. So it's a really interesting discussion and I think you're going to enjoy it. So here's Robbie, Christy and Pat.

[Mike Axelrod]

So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting. It brings awareness to, to non hunters.

[Patrick Oust]

That it's, it's more than just killing animals.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

How do I start it? Brittany?

[Mike Axelrod]

My name.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

Does my hair look okay?

[Mike Axelrod]

My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a a feminist that works for a nonprofit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it.

[Patrick Oust]

Comes to a hunter.

[Mike Axelrod]

So it's not often that we do podcasts where we have multiple guests, but today we have multiple guests because both of these guests are vehemently against the sustainable use of wildlife. Right, Patrick?

[Patrick Oust]

Oh, 100. 100.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

The worst.

[Patrick Oust]

The worst. These people are the worst. I'm going to cross the meat aisle when I'm looking for my vegan hamburgers.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, exactly, exactly. No, today's podcast is going to be pretty amazing. I've got first, I'll introduce the chair of the board. Uh, you have been on the podcast before. You are an old hat to the podcast. Christy Plot. Um, Christy, introduce yourself and what you do and.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

Well, I'm Gilmore now is my last name.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's right. Kristy Plot Gilmore. That's right, yeah.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

Um, and I own an alligator and crocodile leather tannery with my family. The business is 100 years old. We supply exotic leather to manufacturers and brands around the world. In addition to that, I am the industry chair for the IUCN Crocodile Specialist Group, which is the largest and most important crocodilian conservation group in the world, made up of a network of about 800 biologists, ecologists, zoologists, and people far more educated than me. And I am the industry chair and I'm also a board member of the International Crocodilian Farmers association, where we work to enhance and improve animal welfare standards for crocodilians around the world. And we also do a lot of research. Let's see.

[Mike Axelrod]

Sounds like I do a bit of.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

Everything, but it's all in the realm of croc conservation.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, Patrick, Cool.

[Patrick Oust]

Thanks, Robbie. Yeah, so I guess at heart, I'm a reptile geek. I have been since I was about three years old. The natural progression from being a reptile geek is to get into the profession of wildlife conservation. So by training, I'm a conservation biologist. I hold a PhD in the Conservation and sustainable use of crocodiles. I started my career born and bred in Africa, raised in Africa, schooled in Africa. I started my career working with with large carnivores here in Botswana, in the Okavango swamps, working with wild dogs and lions, and then found an opportunity to move into my preferred line of speciality, which is reptiles. I ran the world's largest reptile zoo in India for a couple of years, and then I moved over to Southeast Asia, where I've been working for the last 15 years or so on various reptile conservation and sustainable use projects. Based on my experiences there and the sort of conservation successes we saw unfold there or at least sustainable development successes unfold there. We decided to move back to Africa where we are now in the process of sort of cookie cutting those successes and rolling them out in the African context. And that's more or less where I am now.

[Mike Axelrod]

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[Patrick Oust]

Walks you through the paperwork.

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[Patrick Oust]

I actually did it through Imperial College in London, but all my field work was done in Africa.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, cool, man. The only reason I asked that question is when I was an honours and master's student at student at Wits in Joburg, I had this. I don't know if Christie knows this story. I had this innate fear of snakes. Like I was just did not like snakes. And there was a professor there. The herpetology professor at WITS at the time was Graham Alexander.

[Patrick Oust]

I actually did my postdoc with Graham. I did a postdoc with him. So him and I are very good friends.

[Mike Axelrod]

Small world.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

And he said to me, your fears of snakes are not unfounded. Pat, show them your fingers.

[Patrick Oust]

Yeah, no, there's some truth to running away when you see a snake.

[Mike Axelrod]

For those of you that are not on YouTube and not watching this live through a video, Patrick just pointed his index finger that is not there. I remember he said, oh, don't worry, I'm going to cure your fear of snakes. Very quickly he took me down to the herpetology room and there were 41 week old African rock pythons that needed their cages cleaned. And he goes, I want you, I need you to take all these snakes out of these cages. And little did he tell me that the African rock python, when it's a week old is the bitiest snake probably in the world. And got smashed by African rock pythons on my hands and got over my fear a little bit. And then the. I think a couple of weeks later he was doing a big telemetry study on African rock pythons at the time and he said, to me. He called me, he says, hey, I need some help moving a snake. Things didn't translate in my brain, like, why? Why do you need help moving a snake? Come down. There's this huge metal trommel that's probably, you know, 40 inches by 30 inches by 30 inches deep. And he opens it, and there is one snake inside it. And it filled up the container. Okay, this is Big bertha. She was 57 kilos, so 125, 128 pounds of snake. And he said, listen, I'm going to distract her. You grab the head. And I was like, all worked. And, yeah, we released Big Bertha. We put her in a surgical suite. It was amazing, amazing experience. But anyway, that's my background to reptiles and whatnot.

[Patrick Oust]

So, Robbie, answer this. Did your fear morph into a phobia, or are you now comfortable around snakes?

[Mike Axelrod]

Very, very comfortable around snakes. If I see a snake, I don't run from it. I'm more curious than anything, obviously with a healthy respect. And here's the other thing. When I landed to do my PhD in the United States, I landed in a. In a field station in Mississippi that used to be an old minnow farm. And so you could imagine, I'm a wetland ecologist now. That's what I did as a PhD and a master's. Very few snakes in Kruger, did we. We didn't encounter very few, very many snakes in Kruger. But during my PhD, this minnow farm had 240 ponds. They did a herpetology study out there, and they caught 40 times more cottonmouths than all other snake species combined. And so every pond you were in, every ditch I was in, there were literally cotton mouths within yards of you constantly. So, no, I quite enjoy the herpetology side of things. I obviously don't do much of that anymore. So let me. Let's start this sort of the line of. Of where we're going with this conversation. Patrick, I'll start with you. This idea that you have that you're now translating from Southeast Asia into Africa. What is it? What is that idea?

[Patrick Oust]

So, Southeast Asia, Robbie, as I'm sure you and your. And your listeners know, it's a very old part of the world in terms of human civilization. And there's a very long history of. Of wildlife utilization in that part of the world. And being a quintessentially tropical region, reptiles feature heavily within that sort of band of. Of species that are utilized heavily. And so.

[Mike Axelrod]

And in terms of utilization, what are they being utilized for? Mainly food.

[Patrick Oust]

Everything. Everything.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[Patrick Oust]

Food, materials, Medicines, you know, cultural artifacts of some sort of significance, all manner of bits and bobs. So the number of species they utilize and the purposes of those, why they utilize them are almost infinite. And of course it varies from one country to another, from one culture to another, across that landscape. So it really is a story in its own right. I mean, we could be here for days just talking about the utilization of reptiles in Southeast Asia. But of course over time those populations of those species have become, have come under pressure because of the burgeoning population, that part of the world, and particularly the growing affluence. And so what we see emerging over the Last sort of 10, 20, 30 years is more sophisticated utilization programs involving those species all the way from wild harvests all the way through to emerging production systems and the farming of certain species. And that's really where I spent my time working at the coalface with the wild harvests, but also, you know, with everything in between and up to farming systems. And one of the things that emerged quite quickly early on in my experiences is just why these farmers were turning to these species, particularly under challenging circumstances. And as it transpired, it turned out that reptiles just have the edge over other agricultural species or other species that are being utilized from the wild in so many different areas. And that stretches from, from, from zoonotic diseases like we see with bird flu and swine flu. So a lot of the, the farmers, for example, in Vietnam that were getting hit with annual outbreaks and quarantines and culling with, with their poultry and pork, they were turning to reptiles because they.

[Mike Axelrod]

Wasn'T happening on the reptile side, right?

[Patrick Oust]

No, of course not. Because they're cold blooded animals, they have a completely different suite of diseases to ourselves. And so there was no risk. So when the quarantines came down, they didn't apply to reptiles as a group of animals. They tend to be very resilient. Essentially in order for them to evolve alongside high performance, warm blooded animals like birds and mammals, they've more or less evolved to occupy those resource deficient niches around birds and mammals. So they're quite good on living on very little food and water relative to birds and mammals, and also surviving the lean periods much better than birds and mammals. And those adaptations translate very readily into an agricultural setting. And so a lot of these small scale farmers were realizing quite quickly that, wow, you know, we really are struggling to make a living from poultry, from pigs, from, from cattle, goats, but here we've got a species that actually meets our situation, our particular circumstances. It's not getting the diseases. We can do it with very little resources, very little space. We don't have to worry about when our, you know, rice fields get flooded and salinization makes them redundant or economic shutdowns. You know, we could just switch off our little reptile farm and it can last for months without any inputs at all. And we know that we don't have to worry about selling that product because they can sit. They just, they have an adaptive metabolic physiology that allows them to just sit for months without losing any weight or condition. So. So that's what we found. It's just there were a whole lot of little applications that were really working well in different contexts and different areas for different people. And we just sort of realized, well, hang on a second. Africa suffers from a very similar suite of challenges. And it also has a cultural precedent for reptiles, although very few people don't see it because it's been overshadowed by Africa's wealth of large mammalian vertebrates, for example. But certainly in parts of west and central Africa, reptiles are as much a part of the daily fair as any other animal.

[Mike Axelrod]

So in terms of the reptiles, what kind of example, what type of reptiles are the Southeast guys? Is it everything? Is it snakes, lizards, crocodilian species? Is it everything?

[Patrick Oust]

Literally everything. Literally everything. They're farming little stinks, little lizards and everything, right up to giant king cobras and the world's biggest pythons and everything in between. And it extends to other, you know, to turtles and tortoises, crocodilians, you name it. They're farming it just because they're realizing that there are these, these little edges that they have and it's, and it's giving them. It's. It's allowing the agricultural systems to be more productive. It's allowing their wild harvests to be more productive.

[Mike Axelrod]

What wouldn't you. In my brain and I'd like, you know, Patrick, you answer then, Christie, you can add to it. In my brain though, this system again, I'm coming at it from a complete outside. I know nothing about the system. But in my brain, as you sort seeing potential in these reptilian species, the agricultural production value of them goes up. In other wildlife systems, it's meant disaster for the wild system because now it's tragedy of the commons, which is I'm going out, I'm taking as much as I can from the, from the wild, because if I don't get it, my neighbor's going to get it, and so let's go and get it. Is that happening? Is the wild is the wild. Is the wild population suffering because of this new thought process?

[Patrick Oust]

Okay, so, so, so now, so that's an interesting question. And that's why we do need, you know, an hour to chat about this because there's a lot more to it that, that needs to be explained before you can see why it works so well. So, so reptiles at least, and certainly the vast majority of the main species that are being utilized in Southeast Asia. Asia have a very fast life history. So they grow very quickly, they very fecund, they have a very high reproductive output. I mean, a python can lay 40 eggs every year, provided there's enough food and warmth. And that can keep going for 20 years or more. And so they tend to be extraordinarily abundant when conditions are right for them. Now, if you can imagine, large parts of Southeast Asia and East Asia comprise very fertile landscapes. If we take Indonesia, for example, they've got the added bonus of volcanic soils. But elsewhere across Southeast Asia, typically it's high rainfall, relatively fertile soils, and very productive agricultural landscapes, whether it be rice or palm oil, whatever the case is, it's fairly productive. The, the population, the human population is very high. It's fairly intensive agriculture. And in terms of wildlife, there's not much that can tolerate that level of anthropogenic pressure. But reptiles are different. And they're different for a number of reasons. One is they've got this very vast life history, so they're already well suited to sustainable use, to high levels of harvest. They also tend to be fairly cryptic. So, for example, pythons tend to spend an awful lot of time just sitting, doing nothing. They're sessile organisms. They spend their life in ambush or underground or high up in trees. And a lot of other of the heavily utilized species are the same. Um, they have this, we know now from radio telemetry studies, they have this incredible ability to live in very close proximity to humans without ever being detected. Getting back to your, to your cottonmouth story, that's why you have so many cottonmouths living in a minnow farm. You know, they, they just, you wouldn't see them unless you're jumping in those ponds. And then lastly, they have this, this unique ability to survive the hyperbolic ecology of agricultural landscapes. So agricultural landscapes are feast of famine. Sometimes there's an abundance of food, but other times, for many months, there may be nothing when it's just a field waiting to be sowed. Now, there are very few animals that can cope with that hyperbolic ecology. But one group of animals is insects and particularly your insect pests, they do really well in that landscape. And another group of animals is your rodent pests. They, they tend to do very well in those landscapes because they can respond quickly. Now reptiles have the perfect suite of attributes that allow them to track those boom and bust cycles of insects and, and, and rodents. So, so I guess in many respects they're the equivalent of your, of your, your wild pigs in the south of the U.S. they just, they're doing really well in these agricultural landscapes and so they can tolerate these super high levels of harvesting.

[Mike Axelrod]

Now that doesn't, it's interesting you say that because I think everybody, me especially, and I'm a scientist, I've got a PhD. I actually thought it was the opposite. And what you've just said is, makes it even better from a story perspective because you have this push when it comes to sustainable use of animals. And Kristy, you can speak to this in Louisiana specifically when it comes to wetlands and alligators, that if you lose the wild habitat writ large across almost all wildlife species, human pressure, anthropomorphic pressure on the habitats, results in a decrease in wildlife, results in a decrease in biodiversity, abundance, whatnot. But what the way that you just laid it out, Patrick, is that these reptile species in the southeast, in Southeast Asia specifically, and maybe in other scenarios are perfectly adapted to anthropomorphic pressure and could actually thrive in these heavily human impacted systems like agricultural systems, pushing habitat out, decreasing habitat. Because you've got nooks and crannies, you've got ditches, you've got banks, you've got all sorts of things where these things can live. And as you said, be cryptic and.

[Patrick Oust]

Robbie, I mean, you'll know the story of your pythons in the Florida Everglades. It doesn't matter how many millions of dollars you throw at that problem, you're never going to get rid of those animals. They just, they're going to do really well there. They're going to be in a really high abundance level, although you won't see very many. The fact of the matter is, is there's millions of tons of python protein crawling around in that ecosystem. You know that if you can get your hands on it, it could be a very valuable source of food.

[Mike Axelrod]

So in South Africa you're going to try, in Africa you're going to try and utilize the same methodology, just using some of the reptile species there?

[Patrick Oust]

Yeah, well, absolutely. I mean, Africa has a wealth of reptile species, as I'm sure you know, and they've never been, they've never been explored in any scientific capacity in terms of the, of the agricultural wild harvest potential. And so that's more or less what we're doing. We're looking at all of our indigenous species, particularly those that have similar traits, biological traits, to those that are already farm very successfully in Asia and. Yeah, and then we're looking at different production systems for different contest contexts within Africa.

[Mike Axelrod]

Christy, from a crocodilian alligator perspective, obviously wise use, sustainable use, has been a foundational pillar in the restoration of crocodilian alligator species across the world. Right, yeah.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

So I'll use the example. In the United states in the 1960s, there were less than 100,000 animals, American alligators, in the wild. Today, there are probably close to 5 million across the southeastern United States. In Louisiana alone, it is a very conservative estimate to say that there are three, three and a half million alligators in the wild, which is, you know, it may not seem like a lot, but when you put it next to the fact that there are only 5 million people living in the state, it's pretty incredible. So the way the program in Louisiana works, it's a little different. And the, the farming, or ranching as it's, it's technically called, of alligators has actually increased the population. That's how the population has rebounded so successfully.

[Mike Axelrod]

So how is that possible? How can farming increase a wild population?

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

It's interesting. So, because an alligator egg is very susceptible to predation, it's very susceptible to flooding in nature. I would say, you know, 95% or more of those eggs in a nest would die. I think an average size of a clutch of alligator neck eggs is about 30, 32, 35 eggs can be more or less, but, you know, 95% of those would never hatch. So farmers make contracts with landowners and the state. It's a three way contract between the government, the landowner and the farmer, or the rancher and the farmer goes into the Marsh, he collects 100% of the eggs, he pays the farm, he pays the landowner for 100% of those eggs. So he is buying something from that landowner that would have died naturally. So that landowner is getting paid. This puts millions and millions of dollars annually into the pockets of landowners. Now, you know, only 6% of the Earth is covered in wetlands and it is the fastest disappearing ecosystem on the planet. In coastal Louisiana, over 80% of those wetlands are owned by private individuals, making the revenue that goes to the landowners very important because otherwise, you know, they don't have ways to maintain their wetland. And when you take A look at the, the, the weather systems in Louisiana, you can understand why that's important, because hurricanes will go through and they will completely tear up the marsh. They will push sediment, which closes water flow. It will wash marsh away. So restoration projects are very important, and that is what preserves the habitat. And the landowners do it because they know that their source of revenue depends on the sale of alligator eggs. And alligators are not fish. They don't nest in water. They need land to nest. So there's tons of restoration projects that are happening after the, after the farmers take 100% of the eggs back to their farm, they typically get about a 95 to 97% hatch rate, and then they grow that animal.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's a typical hatch rate in the wild. Do we know?

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

Less than 5%.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

So, yeah, very, very low. So, and that's mostly because of flooding and predation. And so the farmers get a very high hatch rate and they raise the animal to between 3 and 4ft in length, and then they release a percentage of those hatched back to that original landowner's property. Now, in the inception of the farming program, the, the releases, I believe, were around 22%.

[Mike Axelrod]

Right.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

And they gradually tapered off. And today the release is 5% back to the wild because. And they just recently changed it from 10% to 5%. So 10% of what was hatched was being released back to that landowner, and now it's dropped down to five. But that has basically bolstered the populations, and that's why we have such incredible, incredible rebounds of this species. So it's.

[Mike Axelrod]

So has that example, has that example been replicated elsewhere? I believe, like, the Northern Territory saltwater crocodile is the same, Same model, right?

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

Kat, I'll let you take this one.

[Patrick Oust]

Yeah, no, absolutely. And different versions of it. You know, there's different ways you can cut that particular cake. But more or less, that sustainable use program is rolled out with, with many different species of crocodilians and indeed some species of reptiles as well, of snakes as well.

[Mike Axelrod]

So.

[Patrick Oust]

Yeah, and it's proved equally successful, albeit for different reasons, in other parts of the world. So, for example, you know, in, in Africa and in South America, it's, it puts money in the hands of those local communities that are custodians of that, of that landscape, you know, and it preserves different kinds of ecosystems. Not necessarily, sure, threaten wetlands, but it helps provide incentives for conserving otherwise dangerous animals that are threatening your livelihood or so on and so forth.

[Mike Axelrod]

So, interestingly, a couple of days ago, so people will Date. When we recording this podcast, I did a piece on rhino trade. I just put a little Sunday thoughts musings out. Patrick, I think you saw that on LinkedIn. And a guy messaged me on LinkedIn. It's like, I don't want to publicly say this. It's all about different NGOs of rhinos and they are pro conservation of rhino, but anti trade. And I said, well then are they technically pro conservation if they're anti trade because it's bad for business if that species is doing well. And he mentioned a crocodilian example in that message and I'll just throw it to you and you tell me he said something. And again, I, I haven't researched it all. I'm just taking it face value. What he said the Siamese crocodile has more than a million in captivity, but less than a thousand in the wild. And I was like, is that true? Like, what's going on there?

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

It's, it's true. And the reason for that is because of lack of public tolerance. Yeah, Pat can probably speak more to this, but, you know, in, in some cultures, crocodiles are considered somewhat demonic or evil. So the people, you know, if they have had, you know, people that have been attacked or they've seen people killed by crocodiles, and it's quite a brutal death, you know, to be killed by a crocodile. And so the people, if they have.

[Mike Axelrod]

You see the videos that come into my phone.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

Exactly.

[Mike Axelrod]

Zimbabwe, man eaters.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

But you have to, you have to alongside with, you have to make the value of the species for the local community. So, you know, in aboriginal communities in the Northern Territory or in Papua New guinea, the local people are the ones who benefited from collecting the eggs. They were the ones that would collect the crocodile eggs and sell them. For every crocodile egg they collected, they were given two chicken eggs and they were paid. So they said, wow, this is, this is a great system. The same thing in Kenya, in the Tana river basin, the people there were being decimated by crocodiles. I mean, I'm not saying they were being completely wiped out. A little exaggeration, but, you know, they were poisoning crocodiles because they didn't want them around. So when they were able to start having financial incentives to support their lives, they said, hey, wait a minute, let's not kill these, let's keep these around. And I think that in the countries where the Siamesis crocodile, the Siamese crocodile has lived, those benefits were not introduced. There was no ranching systems per se. Those animals are bred in closed loop captive systems. So the only people that are benefiting from that species are the people that own the farm and the people that work on the farm. And it is not the local communities that are benefiting. And I think that that's the difference you have to have.

[Mike Axelrod]

So there's no like wild harvest, part of them going out getting eggs and feeling inclusive, the community going, okay, we're going to, we're going to shift our cultural mistrust or cultural traditions around this because we see the economic value tied to this animal.

[Patrick Oust]

Yeah, but I mean, I guess the Siamese crocodile is, it's slightly unique case because bear in mind the natural distribution of the species, or at least the natural habitat involves key wetland ecosystems that happen to be the cradle of, of civilization in that part of the world. So Tonle SAP Lake and various other hyper productive landscapes where you've had ancient civilizations occupying the core habitat for millennia. And so already at the turn of the last century, the species was already being pushed into the marginal habitat on the periphery. And really it's been in competition with humans for a big, very, very long time. Add on top of that a sort of a level of, of, of illegal wild harvests. Specifically for the, the leather trade. It wasn't a major factor, but it did because the population was already marginal. It did sort of tip it towards the, the negative. But really the interesting side to that story is the fact that had those agricultural landscapes managed to find value for that crocodile a thousand years ago, maybe we would see more of the natural habitat today. Whereas now it's just rice and then it goes up into the hills and the steep ravines.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's funny you say that. It's funny the way that you just couched that. I'm reading a book right now called, Gosh, I Can't Remember, It's Hands, hands down. I'll send a picture to you. It's about the whole Kenyan Tanzanian wildlife shift, 1987, 1988, 1989, the whole ascendance of AWF and WWF and the banning of ivory trade and whatnot, very similar to what we're talking about here. And in this book there are a couple of strong ecologists and conservationists that were very big proponents of the Africans themselves being allowed to hunt elephants leaving Tsavo or hunt rhinos leaving Tsavo because they would then culturally have seen, seen the value in these animals and probably would have stymied the massive poaching crisis that happened in the, you know, late 70s, early 80s leading up to this ban, because they wouldn't have Allowed it a hundred percent.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

That's one of the things that in Louisiana, for example, you know, there are hundreds of thousands of acres of marsh. You can't have a game warden on that many places at that many times. It is the landowner that hallease is poaching. You better believe that a landowner is going to turn in a poacher. If he sees someone hunting an alligator, you know, or a duck or whatever it is on his land, he's going to turn them in immediately because to him that is stealing, that is stealing a resource from him. It is just as valuable to him as the money that is in his bank account. And when you have the local communities engaged, they are your biggest ally to stop poaching.

[Mike Axelrod]

All right, so let me ask this question. If you know, we've set the scene here, sustainable use works, sustainable use of reptilians work. I believe sustainable use of wildlife writ large works. Is there an example in your community, and let's be honest for a second in the crocodilian reptilian community in which sustainable use has not worked?

[Patrick Oust]

You know, Robbie, that's an interesting question because philosophically I think success depends on a series of experiences that may include failure.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, let me be more specific. Has resulted in the decline of a wildlife species that's being used.

[Patrick Oust]

I mean, certainly in the past there are a lot of examples, for example with crocodilians in particular, where the big boom, a post war boom in exotic leather fashion resulted in the over harvest of certain populations.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, but Patrick, that's not sustainable use. That was more unregulated commercial harvest.

[Patrick Oust]

This is what I'm saying. We know that theoretically we can overutilize them and we have done in the past. But the moment you inject a, a monicum of, of, of, of sensible management, you see the exact flip side. And, and as I tried to explain not very well in the beginning, these animals are incredibly well suited to sustainable use. So you give them half a, half an inch and the populations are away. So I, I could sit here now and I could say, look, when you look at a handful of species, small island endemics, yeah, there are a couple of, for the pet trade and that sort of thing, there are a couple of examples. But when you look at the millions of individual reptiles that are utilized across the tropics on an annual basis from a whole suite of different species. No, I can't, I can't. They just, there's just no examples and certainly nothing like you'll see in the mammals or the birds comparatively I think.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

I think what, what it ties back to is overexploitation can happen. But like Pat said, the minute that you start to put, you know, framework around it, sound wildlife management, you know, oversight, government oversight, and buy in from industry, it's going to work. You know, if, if you were to just have, for example, Louisiana, which was completely and totally unregulated, I think that you would see, you know, you would never have seen those animals rebound, you know, but it's, you know, they're doing the aerial nest surveys. They're, they're, they know about how many animals are in the marsh. They're doing egg collection quotas. So you can only collect what the government says you can collect in those marsus. And then, of course, there's strict oversight and all kinds of checks that the government is doing and working alongside industry. I was able to speak at the United Nations World Wildlife Day about this, which was really cool because it was an interesting, you know, I guess, oxymoron to most people, or I don't know what the word would be, but it was interesting to most people because they think, oh, World Wildlife Day, that is about saving animals. And here I was up on the stage talking about, you know, alligator handbags and cowboy boots and that that's how you save animals. And that it was only because of the partnership between government, I. E. CITES, U.S. fish and Wildlife, Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries, industry, people like me, people like other tanneries people, brands like Hermes or Lucchese, and then it's, of course, buy in as well from scientists, folks like Patrick. So when you have all three of those working together, beautiful things can happen because everyone there wants the same thing to happen. You just have to find a way to do it. Everybody wants species to increase and habitats to be safe. You just have a way to do it. And industry has been the best way to have the money to do it, because government doesn't always have the money. Scientists definitely don't have the money. So who has it? Industry. So they're the ones that put all of the money in. And as a matter of fact, the entire management program, the entire alligator program, is funded 100% by TAG fees, which means it's funded by industry. Demand in alligator is what pays for all of the wildlife management costs in the state of Louisiana. It's not funded by taxpayers.

[Mike Axelrod]

So I'll, I'll ask one specific question to Patrick and then I want to ask a more challenging question. Patrick, do you think. And it's interesting, again, I can't again, I should remember the bloody title of this book because I'm reading it right now and I'm halfway through it. And it's just fascinating because it's literally like you could pick it up and put it right now. Right. It's the same rhetoric 40 years later. And in it it is very clear that they say, most conservationists, if not all of the conservationists, we're against a ban, we're against a ban of trade. In your field, Patrick, do you do. Are there conservationists that are against what you are proposing?

[Patrick Oust]

Look, Robbie, for any conservationist worth their weight completely gets it. It's, it's not, it's not a, it's not a question of debate, you know, it's, it's a very simple, it's a very simple concept that just works in, in, in the real world situation. So, yeah, no, I mean, you know, definitely not any meaningful conservation. Working at the cold fronts of wildlife conservation, particularly in the global south and in the tropics. There's no other way. Building wildlife economies is the only way forward.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yep. So again, speaking to this book, all the conservationists said, do not ban, do not do what you're about to do. And NGOs, anti use people, politicals, and most importantly, people in the fundraising game for the anti use establishment said we need to ban because it's going to be good for us. And so regardless of whether it's good for wildlife or not, and pushed this rhetoric. Well, we just saw that same thing happen, which is what led us to being on this podcast together. London Fashion Week said we're pulling all. Just correct me if I'm wrong here, Chrissy, all reptilian leathers, all exotic leathers from the Fashion Week. And the question is why? And maybe this is just a bigger writ large question for even 40 years ago, right? Why is there this massive disconnect? And maybe the answer is, Robby, it doesn't really matter what we say. Maybe it's how we say it, maybe it's the tactics we use and how we describe what's actually happening on the ground to convince these people or the people on the other side, maybe not the fundraisers that you're making. Just a horrible decision.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

I think the people who are making these decisions, the closest they've come to the type of wildlife that they're banning is the Discovery Channel or Animal Planet.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, again, this book says they've never stepped foot in Africa and they're banning rhino horn.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

They don't know, they don't understand the way the programs work. They're complicated. It's all, you know, scientifically managed. It would be like extreme explaining to someone who is a reptile farmer in Southeast Asia or someone who works on an alligator farm in Louisiana why a dress that is made of cotton would cost $4,000. They don't understand it. They don't understand the technical threads and the work and all of that that goes into it. They don't get it. So, you know, there has to be some level of coming together and understanding on this. I think that the problem is lack of education, you know, and they think the. The. The people at London Fashion Week think they're educated about it because an NGO has shown them a video. And so we as society today, we feel like we watch one video and there's a narrator that sounds like they're important and they've got, you know, words on the bottom and they tell you a story, and we think, that's it, we've got it. But the story that they're being told is not the truth. The story that they're being told is these poor animals are exploited for fashion. It's wrong. It's vanity. Well, there's a flip side to that. There's a flip side in the fact that these people are investing in the conservation of these species. They are improving local communities. And, you know, if London Fashion Week actually took a look at the UN Sustainable Development Goals and they looked at the reptile industry and they were to see how many of those UN Sustainable Development Goals that we are actually reaching and, and improving upon, I think that they would have a different. A different take on it. The issue is that London Fashion Week doesn't want to listen to a Robbie Kroger or a Pat Oss or a Christy Gilmore. You know, they want to listen to someone who walks into their office in their concrete jungle and who shows them a video. Well, we've not done all of those videos in the way that these other groups have. And that's what we're going to have to start doing.

[Mike Axelrod]

No 100%. And, you know, and that's our mantra, like. Exactly. No, it's lobbying and it's also thinking outside the box. Right. It's at the next London Fashion Week, whenever that is, in 2025, whatever. Right. Let's find a billboard that's super close and we fucking put a billboard up.

[Patrick Oust]

Absolutely. And what Christie says is 100% right. I mean, it's just a very, very simple case of the animal rights lobby. It's a very successful business model. They're just A lot louder and a lot more in the face of the decision makers than we are. And that is all it is. And it's a misinformation game of the next level. It's just a case of they spout a narrative that has no foundation in science and especially no foundation in the frontline realities of what's going on in the real world. But that doesn't matter.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

Pat, I have a question for you. Have you once ever seen an animal rights ngo, whether it be Humane Society International or Born Free or PETA or whatever? I mean, PETA's a little extreme there, really, but have you ever seen them there, like where you've been at the coal face of conservation doing the field work? I'm just curious, like, because I've never. Louisiana.

[Patrick Oust]

That is a really good point because let me tell you something right now they are, they're here, but they're here for one reason only and that's to grab the headlines of the work someone else was doing. The reason why they're not at the front line, the reason why they're not investing in long term projects of their own, is simply because their modus, apparently operandi, has a complete disconnect with the realities of the way conservation works on the ground. You see it all the time. When a community sees a conservation organization spending millions of dollars getting the broken, getting a zebra foal with a broken leg fixed and then that going wrong, and then having a prosthetic leg made for the zebra, they just sit there scratching their head and saying, I've just lost my third child to malaria. All I needed was a little bit of treatment that costs a fraction of what you've just spent on that zebra. So that is why these, these animal rights organizations cannot do long term work on the ground. Because their, their whole philosophy is just out of touch with what's happening on the ground.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

I mean, I've never, I've never seen, I mean, you know, any of these organizations actually invest. And this is just from, from my perspective, I've never seen them actually invest in conservation programs. I've never seen them donate to, for example, the IUCN Crop Specialist Group where we're doing research on critically endangered species. What I have seen is industry invest in that. I have seen industry invest in, in research programs on species that have never been used by industry are never going to be used. For example, like the Indian gharial, You know, we're, we're funding research on that that's coming from, from people who use them. It's coming from Zoos. It's coming from industry and so I just not seen it. So I was just curious, who are the.

[Mike Axelrod]

Who are the big anti. Anti use players in this reptilian space?

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

Peter is a really.

[Mike Axelrod]

Is it hum. Peter is the biggest one.

[Patrick Oust]

Yeah. Peter. Humane Society.

[Mike Axelrod]

Does IFAW play at all? IFAW plays too.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

Defenders.

[Mike Axelrod]

Although they do.

[Patrick Oust]

They're not nearly as vocal as Peter or Humane Society.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

Yeah. Defenders of Wildlife was a thorn in our side because they wrote an illegal trade report. It was completely full.

[Mike Axelrod]

I remember that.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

It was so wrong. It was so bad. It was, it was, you know, like. I wish that these documents that these groups had to do was put under peer review because anybody would say this is a bunch of garbage. So, you know, it's just interesting because, you know, the, you know, they hold themselves up as scientific organizations, but what they're looking for, they're. They have a point of view and they're just putting information together from bits and pieces of data that support their point of view that is just. It's completely and totally incorrect. So, you know, I. But they are better funded than us. You know, I mean, I can remember being in the seventh grade and like I had a T shirt that said give wildlife a chance. God knows who it funded. I don't know. I don't have a clue who it funded. But I will guarantee you that it did not fund anyone who is on the ground or any. I mean, I think it was sold at our school as a school fundraiser for some animal rights group probably. I'm ashamed to say that I had that T shirt.

[Mike Axelrod]

Listen, you've. You've reformed. It's okay. It's okay. Since you were seven. It's okay. We forgive you. We forgive you. Yeah, it's amazing, man. And you know, as. As Patrick said, I think we could speak, we could talk for hours and hours about this and I have some ideas of how we can do that and I'll talk to you guys off air about that.

[Patrick Oust]

Guys, just, just quickly. Robbie, I've got a hard stop at the end of the hour. I've got another meeting starting. Is that all right?

[Mike Axelrod]

We're about done, brother. You're about done.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

Not okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

Did you. Yeah, I just. I know we struggled to get together on this, but I think it's an important topic. I think there's lots of important topics surrounding this. I think there's some really good educational pieces that obviously maybe have been explored or maybe have not been explored in the right way that I'd love to explore with you guys. But I know we've. We've coordinated three different time zones to get this podcast at the same time, so. That's great, Christy. Appreciate you, Patrick. Pleasure to meet you finally face to face. And if there's anything we can do to help, please don't hesitate to reach out. You know how to get ahold of us now. Cool.

[Patrick Oust]

Well, Robbie, thank you very much for giving us the opportunity to chat a bit about this. It's a subject very close to my heart, but.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, and you have a straight into the chair of the board if you need anything to be done, so. All right, guys.

[Patrick Oust]

Thanks, Christian. I have had many late nights discussing these issues.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, I'm sure we've solved them all.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

By the end of the night.

[Mike Axelrod]

Perfect.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

Thanks, Robbie.

[Patrick Oust]

And we'll do the same with you. No doubt. One day, Robbie, we'll definitely hook up. And certainly, if you're ever in this part of the world, please do know that you've got a bed. And appreciate that.

[Mike Axelrod]

Appreciate that.

[Christy Plot Gilmore]

Thanks, everybody. Really appreciate the talk this morning.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening. As always, leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.