Episode 555 - Paul Booyens || Captive Lions To Wild Lions?

Summary

Blood Origins Podcast Episode 555 - Paul Booyens || Captive Lions To Wild Lions?

Release Date: May 1, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 555 of Blood Origins, hosted by Robert Arrington of Blood Origins Inc., the conversation centers around one of South Africa's most contentious wildlife conservation issues: the rewilding of captive-bred lions into the wild. Joining Robert is Paul Buoyens, a seasoned wildlife reserve manager and researcher with a deep interest in animal behavior and conservation politics in Southern Africa.

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Understanding the Captive Lion Breeding Industry

Robert opens the discussion by highlighting the controversial nature of captive lion breeding in South Africa, emphasizing its role in both conservation and hunting industries. Paul explains the fundamental question driving his research: "Can lions that have been human-raised and bred in captivity become wild, functioning lions capable of hunting, breeding, and social interaction?" (01:10).

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Legislative and Political Challenges in South African Wildlife Management

The conversation delves into the current legislative landscape governing wildlife in South Africa. Paul outlines two primary factions within the wildlife industry:

1. Pure Conservationists: Oppose sustainable utilization, believing it undermines conservation efforts.
2. Sustainable Utilization Advocates: Support regulated hunting and breeding as means to fund and sustain conservation.

Notable Quote:

"There are two sides in the wildlife industry: pure conservationists who believe sustainable utilization shouldn't be allowed, and those who see it as essential for conservation." — Paul Buoyens (11:52)

Paul highlights how political interference and over-regulation have intensified tensions, often jeopardizing livelihoods dependent on wildlife. He emphasizes that conflicting agendas and financial influences exacerbate these challenges, leading to ongoing disputes within the industry (13:01).

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The Ethics and Economics of Wildlife Conservation

Paul addresses the ethical dilemma faced by communities living alongside wildlife. He paints a vivid picture of a Zimbabwean farmer struggling to survive, questioning the viability of conserving animals when immediate human needs take precedence.

Notable Quote:

"How do you convince a farmer with a family to protect animals when their survival depends on immediate resources?" — Paul Buoyens (18:25)

He argues that without monetary incentives, local communities lack the motivation to engage in conservation, stressing the need for sustainable economic models that benefit both humans and wildlife.

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Paul Buoyens’ Research on Rewilding Captive-Bred Lions

A significant portion of the episode focuses on Paul's pioneering research, which investigates the feasibility of rewilding captive-bred lions. He recounts how by chance, he collaborated with a lion rancher to release captive lions into a newly established, spacious wildlife reserve.

Key Points:

• Hard Release Method: Lions were released without pre-release training, relying entirely on instinct to survive (41:56).
• Early Success: Within 10 days, the lions successfully hunted a 54-inch kudu bull, demonstrating their innate predatory instincts (47:09).
• Reproduction: Within months, the released lionesses gave birth to cubs, indicating successful social and reproductive integration (50:05).

Notable Quote:

"The hunger to hunt and survive is instinctive. These lions knew they had to kill to avoid starving." — Paul Buoyens (45:11)

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Outcomes and Implications of the Rewilding Experiment

Paul shares the positive outcomes of his experiment, including successful hunting, social integration, and reproduction among the released lions. Despite initial concerns, the lions adapted well, seldom exhibiting aggressive behavior towards humans or vehicles.

However, he also acknowledges the long-term challenges, such as the rapid increase in lion populations leading to potential overpopulation and its impact on prey species. This necessitates continuous management and monitoring to maintain ecological balance.

Notable Quote:

"Reproduction was really successful within three or four months. By July, all four lionesses had given birth to their first litter." — Paul Buoyens (50:30)

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Genetic Diversity and Conservation: Addressing Criticisms

A critical aspect of Paul's research addresses the genetic diversity concerns associated with releasing captive-bred lions. He refutes claims of inbreeding, citing scientific studies that show captive lines can maintain or even exceed genetic diversity compared to some wild populations.

Notable Quote:

"Contrary to the belief, there was a paper published where ranch lines had greater genetic diversity than some wild populations." — Paul Buoyens (60:22)

Paul advocates for evidence-based discussions, urging stakeholders to verify claims and focus on scientific data to guide conservation strategies effectively.

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Challenges of Translocating Lions and Future Directions

The discussion highlights the complexities of translocating lions across different regions, including genetic compatibility, disease risks, and the ecological needs of recipient areas. Paul emphasizes that indiscriminate translocation without addressing underlying ecological and social factors is counterproductive.

Notable Quote:

"Translocation is tricky and requires understanding why a lion population declined in the first place." — Paul Buoyens (66:54)

He calls for innovative solutions and collaborative efforts to ensure that rewilding and conservation practices are both sustainable and scientifically sound.

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Robert and Paul agree on the necessity for open, evidence-based dialogues to navigate the complexities of wildlife conservation. They advocate for inclusive discussions, where differing viewpoints are respected and informed by scientific research to foster effective conservation strategies.

Notable Quote:

"We need to have amicable discussions that have differing opinions around wildlife conservation until it's absolutely proven this cannot work." — Robert Arrington (76:47)

Paul concludes by reiterating his commitment to truth and science-based conservation, distancing himself from financial motivations tied to lion breeding or hunting industries.

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Key Takeaways

• Rewilding captive-bred lions shows potential but requires meticulous management to ensure ecological balance.
• Genetic diversity concerns may be mitigated through scientific research, challenging prevailing misconceptions.
• Legislative and political dynamics significantly impact wildlife conservation efforts, necessitating balanced policies that support both human livelihoods and animal preservation.
• Economic incentives are crucial in motivating local communities to engage in and support conservation initiatives.
• Open, evidence-based dialogues are essential to address the multifaceted challenges in wildlife management and conservation.

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Timestamp Key:

• 01:10 - Introduction of Paul Buoyens and research focus
• 11:52 - Explanation of the two sides in the wildlife industry
• 13:01 - Political interference and regulation challenges
• 18:25 - Ethical dilemmas of conservation vs. human survival
• 41:56 - Description of the hard release method
• 45:11 - Instinctual hunting behavior of released lions
• 47:09 - Successful hunting within 10 days
• 50:05 - Reproductive success of released lions
• 50:30 - Reproduction timeline and first litter
• 60:22 - Addressing genetic diversity concerns
• 66:54 - Challenges of lion translocation
• 76:47 - Advocacy for open discussions in conservation

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For more insights into wildlife conservation and hunting perspectives, stay tuned to Blood Origins Inc.

Transcript

[Robert Arrington]

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[Robert Arrington]

Paul Buoyens is a wildlife reserve manager currently, but he did his thesis on the rewilding and I say rewilding in quotation air quotation marks that you can't see of captive bred lions into a reserve to become wild lions? Super controversial topic, captive bred lions or captive breeding of lions in South Africa and the release of those captive bred lions for hunting. It's probably the most controversial topic in South Africa today. It's been the most controversial topic for 10 years. And so I met Paul whilst I was in South Africa. He has a fascinating story and it's a fascinating research thesis which is can you take these lions that were human raised, bottle fed, have been fed a carcass their entire lives and have bred? Because that's the whole point of these breeding facilities. But can they become quote unquote wild, wild functioning lions that is, can they kill for themselves? Can they breed in the wild and they can function socially, interact with each other, create the social structure that a lion felid system actually is? That's what Paul did. And so I wanted to hear from the horse's mouth on how he did it and what were the outcomes and really just talk generally about the captive lion breeding conundrum that is South Africa right now. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting it brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals.

[Paul Buoyens]

How do I start it, Brittany?

[Robert Arrington]

My name. Does my hair look okay? My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it, too. Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a nonprofit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to hunter. Whenever we do podcasts, there's always challenges, Right. The first time we try to do a podcast with you, you were stuck in Angola.

[Paul Buoyens]

You're ridiculous. So ridiculous.

[Robert Arrington]

And then this morning, you didn't have any power at your house. You had to go somewhere else to find power and find WI fi. Yeah. But you wouldn't trade it for the world, right? Africa. You wouldn't trade Africa for the world.

[Paul Buoyens]

No, I'll probably die. I mean, there are. There are things in other. On other continents that I'd like to see and experience, but, I mean, I can't see myself living somewhere else.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah. You know, people said to me when I moved to the States, they were like, man, don't you miss Africa? And I said, well, I got a piece of Africa outside of Africa, like the outdoor recreational space here in America. The amount. The amount of wildlife resources available to you now that I hunt, it was just like, I found a piece of Africa outside of Africa in Mississippi.

[Paul Buoyens]

That's awesome. But that is actually. Yeah, that is something I'd like to experience is hunting in the States, because it looks so cool. There's like millions of YouTube videos about it, so you can just watch it everywhere.

[Robert Arrington]

And it's so varied. That's the thing you can, like, yeah, you sit in a tree, stand for whitetail hunts, or just put a backpack on and disappear for 10 days into the wilderness of wildernesses to find this one animal called an elk.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah. It is crazy. You guys have. Have absolutely spectacular wildlife and wild areas, which is.

[Robert Arrington]

Well, you can imagine how, like. But know Africa is Africa, man. She gets under your skin and you can't replace it. You can't replace the smells and the sights and just everything, man.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah. I don't think there's a book yet that completely describes exactly what it is.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah. Paul Bon. Welcome to the Blood Origins podcast.

[Paul Buoyens]

Thank you very much.

[Robert Arrington]

We're not going to talk about anything controversial today, Right?

[Paul Buoyens]

Well, then you should probably find another guest. I suppose Holy smokes.

[Robert Arrington]

I love the fact that you answered that with laughter.

[Paul Buoyens]

I mean, my entire career is controversial, so. Yeah, but if you're afraid of facing controversy, you'll probably just go nowhere in Africa anyways.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah. Paul, introduce yourself. What do you do? Who are you?

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah, so my name is Paul Buens. I do have a permanent job on a wildlife reserve which I like to keep private for the sake of the privacy of the owners. But I also do independent research as a hobby and career development. So I've been into science and natural science basically since I finished school. Just the love of Africa, love of wildlife and specifically on animal behavior. That's something I've kind of started to specialize in in my early days at the university. Yeah, so that's basically it. By day I am a wildlife reserve manager and I've recently become very involved with the politics within the wildlife industry in South Africa. Southern Africa, which is not always fun, but necessary. Sure. Yeah. And you know, like I said in, in my spare time, I spend it outdoors anyway, so doing research, doing politics, trying to help where I can to make sure that we have a, you know, a sustainable future ahead of us. Specifically for, for guys like me. Guys and girls like me.

[Robert Arrington]

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[Paul Buoyens]

Oh, legislation, man. I, I think it's, it's so, it's so over regulated that it's difficult, it's, it's difficult sometimes to do the really necessary things.

[Robert Arrington]

No, the good work. Right.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah, good work.

[Robert Arrington]

Wildlife conservation.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yes. And it gets this, it can become disheartening. But you know, it's part of Africa. It's the way things work out here. But that I would say the last couple, let's say the last five or eight years maybe politics has played a massive role in the wildlife industry. And there's a big, obviously there's two sides in the wildlife industry and I'm already getting into the controversy. There are two sides in the wildlife industry and they really bumping heads and for the past.

[Robert Arrington]

What are those two sides, Paul?

[Paul Buoyens]

So we obviously have the pure conservationists who believe that sustainable utilization is not a conservation method and it shouldn't be allowed, it shouldn't be out there. That's the one side. And then the obviously the other side of those that believe that sustainable utilization is a, is a not only a profitable but a sustainable method for, for conservation and it plays a big role. So you can decide on which side you want to be of that. You know, I have my own opinion about that. But, but those are basically, excuse me, those are basically the two sides that you can take on.

[Robert Arrington]

And are we seeing obviously through what you're seeing in changes in legislation, you're seeing, I wouldn't. Meddling may be a too strong of a term but interference from the anti use crowd to say hey, you shouldn't be doing all this kind of stuff. And so we're going to just work through the legislative process to make things a lot more difficult, a lot more challenging.

[Paul Buoyens]

So I think that obviously they have an agenda, you know, they have a goal that they want to get to and they'll, they'll use whatever means necessary to, to get to that goal. And if it is to influence politicians and the rulemakers, they'll probably go that way. Look, it's a, it's a very, it's, it's a financially strong industry on that side and they, they gather up billions of dollars a year through donors and all sorts of other type of funding exercises. And I think they'll do whatever it takes. You know, it's, and I don't blame them at all. Don't, don't get me wrong, I'm not choosing sides. I'm just saying that, you know, if, if, if I want to reach a goal, I'm going to do whatever it takes as long as it's legal. But you, Yeah, I, I think sometimes and by some groups the lines do get crossed and I think that's where, that's where the, the opponents get really cross, you know, because their livelihoods depend on it. So if you threaten my livelihood and you do it by, by unfair means, then we're going to have a problem and there's going to be a fight. And that's what's been happening for the past eight or ten years.

[Robert Arrington]

Well, I know we're not going to talk about rhinos today and we're going to talk more about lions, but sure. Do you think that's why people are so anti trade of rhinos? That it is. You can't save rhinos if they're doing really, really, really well?

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah, I think in a sense, obviously, you know, I'm not going to, I'm not going to get money from a donor if the species doesn't need saving. So it's, it's a massive selling point saying that something is, you know, on the brink of extinction and we use all these fancy words and we use, we use emotion. I'm saying we, they use emotions most of the time to make sure that they get their message across, to make sure that they get the type of funding that they want. And I think that's where the lines get crossed a lot. You know, I'm, I, for one, because I'm a, I see myself as a scientist, I'm, I'm purely focused on the science, on the facts, on the truth and that's what. So to answer your question, basically, yes, you know, if, if there were hundreds of thousands of rhinos like they were impala, nobody's going around asking donations to save impala because they know they won't, they won't make money out of it and they have a whole team working behind them and all those people need to get paid in some way. You know, so they focusing on the, on the vulnerable species and, and I'm, you know, I'm wondering about the statistics of how much of that money that gets that comes in is actually used in good conservation exercises. That, that would be an interesting statistic to me.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah. You know, I think the bigger the machine, the more the admin, the less money hits the ground. Right. That's just the reality of it. And don't get me wrong or you wrong, I think these organizations that have saved the X, saved the rhino, saved the elephant, saved the polar bear, whatever, they've done a really good job and they needed to do a good job in the 80s and 90s, early 2000s, in a protectionist type of mindset because these animals did need protecting. But the shift today, the narrative today, I believe very firmly needs to change to sustaining wildlife, to putting value on wildlife, to utilizing wildlife because of the pressures around them from a humanity perspective. Yeah. And if you look at mechanisms like trade of rhinos, the idea of non trade was supposed to save the species 50 years ago and it has not.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah, yeah, but, but I mean if, if, if you're not trading in the animal as a, as a live wild animal or in something that is regenerative like the rhino horns. While we're talking about rhinos, if you, if you don't trade in that, where does the monetary value come from? And to me, if, if something doesn't have monetary value, then why are people going to be looking after it? Especially in impoverished countries such as most in Africa. You know, these people live with these wild animals on a day to day basis. Not, not so much in South Africa as they do in, in. If you go further up north where there's really, where, where rural really means rural. And these people have a daily struggle to survive with these wild animals. So if, if there's no reason for them to protect these animals, there's no future prospect of income from these animals, then you know, I, I struggle to see why they would bother to save them. They, they're in, they're basically standing in the, in the way of the population, of the human population's existence. So it's a struggle. And that's. If you go read, you can go and read in the literature, I would go as far as to say the most vulnerable or close to extinct or threatened species, mostly because of the competition with humans for viable space.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah. And that's only going to get worse and worse and worse as we go through time. Human populations currently are still burgeoning, are still increasing, still putting pressure on wildlife, still putting pressure on habitats.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yes. And how do you, I mean, there's one guy told me once, you know, there's a, there's a, there's this guy living in, let's say in the middle of Zimbabwe and he's living there, he's got a wife and he's got four or five children and he's basically, you know, he's got a small crop field around his house that he produces maize off and he's got a couple of goats and a couple of chickens and he walks every day, 5ks to get water from the river. That's, that's the type of life. There's, there's no other means of income for these people. And tonight when he's going home, he needs to get food on the table for his wife and his, and his children. And how do you convince that guy that, that killing an impala or killing a waterbuck or killing an elephant or a rhino, how do you convince that guy that it's wrong because his children can starve? You know, I'm sitting in the comfort of my apartment in, let's say in Joburg somewhere and I'm having the time of my life. If my milk goes off, I just drive around the corner to the shop and I get new milk. If that guy loses a goat, he doesn't have milk for six months, you know, so it's that extreme type of competition that people need to be aware of. And if we. There's a massive thing about rewilding. The past five years it's popped up everywhere and everyone's talking about rewilding, but rewilding is, is not on an individual basis. You know, if, if I take one giraffe from a zoo in Chicago, for instance, and I come and rewild it here in Africa, have I really done something for conservation or they just saved an individual animal? And apart from that, rewilding encapsulates the entire environment. So we need to rewild habitats, not just certain fuzzy, cuddly, cute species. That's my opinion.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. Paul, Obviously the most controversial wildlife species arguably in South Africa from a use perspective, is lines. Would you agree?

[Paul Buoyens]

Yes, there is it. It's definitely ranked way up there. Yeah.

[Robert Arrington]

What else would, what else would compete?

[Paul Buoyens]

I mean, rhinos are obviously a big subject. Elephant at the, at this stage is a massive subject.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah. But you've got captive bred lions, you've got the whole wild managed all that kind of controversy around it. Yeah, those two elements by itself just creates controversy.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah. And it's complicated.

[Robert Arrington]

Well, and then the government's now folding. Not folding, but the government saying, look, we're shutting down the whole industry from a line perspective. We'll get into that a little bit more here soon. And then, you know, what do you do with lines? How do you use them? You know. Yeah, differentiating lions breeding versus sort of plains game breeding, you know, the whole like value chain. And what's. It's a lion versus an impala. Is there a difference? Yes, there is a difference socially, but maybe not just from a, you know, quote breeding perspective. Yeah. What made you interested in this subject? Because obviously you dug in deep, which we're about to talk about.

[Paul Buoyens]

So it was actually purely by chance, while I was doing my, my ordinary day job, I met up with a guy who happened to be also, apart from having a big outfitting business, he also had ranch lines. So he bred lines for the hunting industry. And so for people that we need.

[Robert Arrington]

To be very, we need, need to be very methodical here because people that are listening to this are going to be like, I have no idea what you're Talking about. So, yeah, he had ranched lions for the hunting industry. What does that mean?

[Paul Buoyens]

So there is an industry in South Africa where farmers breed lions in. I hate the word enclosure because it sounds so small, but they, they put them in mostly. They, the lions are contained obviously in a fenced in area as per legislation which is by the way governed per province in South Africa. So there are nine different provinces. So there's nine different sets of legislation in terms of what we are allowed to do in South Africa with wildlife, which complicates matters further. So anyway, there are a bunch of guys, we don't, not really sure how many at this stage because a lot of them have dropped out that breed with lions like the other ranches in South Africa do with buffalo and sable and grown antelope. And, and when you talk about pens.

[Robert Arrington]

And enclosures that these lions are in, they could be big enclosures that are. Yeah, you know, 2 acres, 3 acres, 5 acres. But others, they are small penned areas too. Right.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah. So while we did our research is, what we found is that the average size of a lion enclosure for breeding in is between, let's say 6 and any, anything from 6 to 100 acres. So it can be very spacious, but it can also be very small, if you want to put it like that. But there's also.

[Robert Arrington]

What about those pictures that you constantly see, Paul, of like literally it's, you know, 30 meters by 30 meter enclosure with the, the, the, the concrete, you know, roof thing in the middle where the line's sitting on top of the concrete roof thing or goes inside when it's hot. Yeah, that's my, that's my image of it. Right? That's my image of lion ronch.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah. And, and that, that's what gets distributed. So the, the guys that do it correctly don't necessarily end up on Facebook or, or on Twitter. So there are those instances. I'm not advocating for lion breeding at all. I have no financial investment in any sort of animal breeding at all, just to make that clear. So there are those ranches that do that and who do not abide by the legislation. So, you know, for instance, in the free state, the minimum size for a lion enclosure is 1 hectares, which I believe is about 2.5 acres.

[Robert Arrington]

Okay.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah. And then for, for every, that's the minimum size then for every, Are there.

[Robert Arrington]

Are there minimum standards for how many lines can be in that enclosure?

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah, so that, that one hectares can, can contain one line. For every line that you'd like to add, you have to add another 1 hectares or 2.5 acres. Okay, so that is just to make sure. I, I believe that was written a long time ago, like in the 1980s or 90s. I can't. Can't remember. So. So there is a bit of legislation, you know, looking after the health of the lions in terms of spaces to move so that the lions don't end up sleeping on top of each other. You know, that's that sort of thing. So. But we do have a bunch of rotten apples in the industry, like, like you would in any other industry. I mean, I don't want to so.

[Robert Arrington]

Happens to be a controversial industry with bad apples on top of the controversial industry which amplifies the bad apples.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yes. And it's. And it's with a. A very beloved species, which I get completely. So you don't want to see. Nobody wants to see animals suffer and, and being kept in, in small enclosures where they can barely turn around, you know, so there are those instances and people who don't look after the lions well, they don't get fed well, and the water isn't, you know, it's not sanitary conditions. There are those instances, and there are organizations in South Africa within the wildlife industry that are desperately trying to get rid of these people. But it's, it's because the ranches are so far apart and you usually very far away from any type of civilization, it's very difficult to get to these guys, which is, by the way, actually the job of the provincial Department of Conservation in each province. They are supposed to be checking up on these guys because if they hand a rancher a permit or a license to be, to be breeding with lions in these, let's call them camps. I really don't like the word enclosure. If they are handed a permit or a license to be breeding with lions under certain terms and conditions, they are supposed to be checking up on these guys at least once a year. Those permits need to be renewed every second or third year. And it's the job of the governmental department to be checking up on these guys. So there's a great space for bureaucracy to ruin an industry in any ways. And I'm not saying it's the department's fault that these guys are involved in illegal activities. I mean, obviously the buck stops with the perpetrator.

[Robert Arrington]

So these guys are ranching lines in these systems and then are selling these lions to hunting operators that then put the lions out and somebody comes and hunts them, right? Correct. Yeah. So the controversy right now is the former minister Barbara Creasy said Look, we're stopping this industry. We're shutting it down. What. How many lines are supposedly in these ranched facilities? 13,000 or something like that.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah. It's difficult to say, but I think the last, you know, the last kind of census that was done was done by the Lion Task Team. It was a ministerial task team under Barbara Creasy. And I think they found somewhere, they said anywhere between 8 and 12,000 lives.

[Robert Arrington]

Okay. Yeah. And so they. I believe. I don't know, correct me here if I'm wrong, I believe that it's already been implemented, that no new facilities can be created. Right.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah.

[Robert Arrington]

So now it's a question of what do you do with the existing facilities? And there was a. A voluntary. A voluntary handover or something like that.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah. They call it the voluntary exit strategy. That's what they. Yeah.

[Robert Arrington]

And one person put their hand up, right?

[Paul Buoyens]

Yes. To test the water. Yes. There was, as far as we know, there was one person that actually put their hand up and said that they'll leave or they'll kind of sell. They'll stop branching with lines and kind of exit.

[Robert Arrington]

And what was the government's strategy? If. If I, if I was that guy and I put my hand up and said, okay, I'm voluntary, voluntarily exiting. What was the plan for what was going to happen with those lines?

[Paul Buoyens]

So if you read the report by the lion task Team or the ministerial task team, what they said that they, they, they would. First of all, all of the lines would be checked by a registered veterinarian to make sure that they are healthy and in a condition that. Or in a. In a good condition. Excuse me. And then there were several options. So obviously those lions that were found to be in a condition not prone to survive, they would be euthanized or put down by whichever means. I don't know what, you know, euthanasia can mean a lot of things, but nevertheless, they would be put down. Then those lines that were found to be healthy, they had several options. Some of them, they. They could either send them off to registered.

[Robert Arrington]

Please don't. Registered sanctuaries. Really?

[Paul Buoyens]

Sanctuaries. I'm serious.

[Robert Arrington]

So they're just going from one, dare I say, a sanctuary to another sanctuary?

[Paul Buoyens]

Exactly.

[Robert Arrington]

Probably. Do the sanctuaries have the same standards that the ranching industry has, I. E. Like you just described, if by regulation, one lion per one hectare enclosure.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah.

[Robert Arrington]

Because again, in my brain, I see a sanctuary. I see a sanctuary like the, the. The Rhino and Lion park outside of Joburg that I used to visit as a kid. Right. And you saw all those pens with the lions in them? Yeah, those. That's the classic 40 by 40, 50 by 50 meter. The lion is lying in there with the concrete shelter, with the concrete bowl of water. Yeah.

[Paul Buoyens]

So I'm actually not familiar with the legislation on sanctuaries but I mean if, if it's anything similar to what these lion ranches are supposed to uphold, then there's, to me there's no difference of a lion being on a lion breeding ranch or being at a sanctuary. The supposed difference that gets portrayed to the public is that they are now going to be kept under better conditions and their welfare is going to be a high priority. I know that there's one thing that the sanctuaries are not allowed to breed. So all the lions that do go to a sanctuary according to my knowledge have to be either vasectomized or, or they need to go undergo hysterectomies or some form of contraception so that they cannot breathe. They're not allowed to breed. That's a different, that's a whole different permit. But I get what you're saying. There's, there's, to me also there's, and, and that's one of the political fights that we're having at the moment is that you're moving a line from one cage to another cage and you're saying that this cage is better than the cage used to be in. And that makes, that's, there's no logic in that.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah. So what are the other options you mentioned? We, I stopped you at sanctuary where the other options in the exit of the healthy lions.

[Paul Buoyens]

So they could, they could actually keep the lions. There was this option that they could keep the lions on the ranch and then sort of leave them to live out their lives on that ranch. But that's it. They had, they couldn't continue with breeding but they could also not sell them. I think they're still allowed to sell them to hunting outfitters. I'm not really sure. So that that would be an option. And then obviously leave them take, take good care of them until their lives are done. And, and that will be it. That will be a sort of a phasing out of the, the of that lion launch that that would be the options.

[Robert Arrington]

Was there, was there no option of placing lions. This may be a two faced question. Was there's no option of placing lions in reserves?

[Paul Buoyens]

No, absolutely not. Within the ministerial task team, they, they were very deliberate within their report to, to recognize the study that we did, the research that we did negatively by saying that, you know, they, they, when they referenced the, the research in the report, they didn't even say, even though it was found that captive bread lions can be released. They just said this. The study found that there's no space for lions outside of these, outside of these ranges. So basically the wild management, wild lion populations or at capacity. So there's no other option than to take them to sanctuaries or let them live out their lives.

[Robert Arrington]

So let's, let's tackle. I don't know what to tackle first. Like there's a chicken and egg scenario here. So let's. How about we do this? How about you tell me. So the reason we have you on this podcast, we were like, why are you talking to this guy? Robbie? I'm talking to this guy because can I. Is it true that you, you tried it the fir for the first time, you took these ranch lines and said, and you sent me your abstract, which was really good. You took these ranch lines and you said, can we, as a, as a hypothesis, can these ranch lines that have lived behind a cage for their entire lives become wild functioning lions? I get that right. Yep. And functioning. I put functioning very purposely in that statement. Functioning meaning can eat, can kill, can breed.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah. And interact socially, which is really important. It's really important to understand that lions obviously being the only social feelers, it's really important that they have a specific tendency for social interaction with other lions because it's important in their hierarchy, it's important for their breeding and it's important for their hunting. So it's important for their survival to be interacting socially. But those are the main things that, that we were looking at. Yeah.

[Robert Arrington]

So you did.

[Paul Buoyens]

And it all happened by chance. Yes, so it happened by chance. This lion rancher that I told you about earlier, he actually convinced a reserve owner to release because they were looking to reintroduce lines to that reserve. It was a newly established reserve. It was about 22,000 hectares, which is roughly, let's say 50,000 acres. Beautiful piece of wild Africa. Also enclosed by the way. So it's also an enclosure. That's why I don't like the word. Anyways, it was this nicely managed wildlife reserve and they reintroduced lions and, and this lion brancher convinced them to take these captive bred lions. It was one adult male and four sub adult females, all of them coming from ranches. The females, if, if you read the thesis or the book, you'll, you'll see that these females were actually used. The, they were kept in a corridor around a Rhino breeding facility as a sort of security to poach. I'm serious, no joke.

[Robert Arrington]

That's brilliant. What an anti poaching. Like we've just got this corridor of lions, see if you can like a moat. But instead of a moat of alligators, you got a moat of lions.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah, it was pretty cool. And that was actually so that it, it barely made the required size to keep these lions. And it's really weird, you know, it's orthodox to think that it's not a square or a round enclosure, it's this moat or tunnel that they're basically walking around in and they were kept there. So they were by no means were these lions wild or new hunting or new social interaction or they knew how to breed because you know, we all kind of know how to, how that works before we supposed to. So that's it. And this male was actually, he was about 9, almost 10 years old when it was released on that reserve. The male was actually taken away from its mother at birth and then bottle fed up until the age of about six, five, six months. And it, it was raised in this rancher's house up until about three years I think. And when it got a bit big and unmanageable, let's say that for the house, so they moved it out into one of the camps where the other males were kept of this, of a similar age. And later on they discovered it was a really nice male for breeding. It had the most beautiful phenotypic, you know, trait that, that you could imagine. So they used him for breeding for about five years, four or five years. And then.

[Robert Arrington]

So he was breeding in captivity which is the whole point of these ranching facilities, right?

[Paul Buoyens]

Yes. Them for the hunting industry basically.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah, for sure.

[Paul Buoyens]

After breeding.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what was your, what was your thought process when explain to me. So did you release the male and the females all at the same time? Like hey, next to each other, boxes next to each other. You just let them find each other?

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah. So we actually at the time I was really no lion expert, not that I am now, but at that time I was really clueless. So we had some guys from universities in, in South Africa kind of guide us on how this works. And we spoke to some guys who had done this before also and there's actually, you know, standard operating procedure. So we kind of followed that in the release. So the male was introduced to the females by putting him into a neighboring camp next to the females with a fence splitting them just to make, just to check out what the level of Aggression would be between them because they were not familiar to each other. They actually came from two different breeding facilities and obviously they also, more importantly they were not related to each other. And that was done for about three weeks, I think. And then the, the gate between the camps were kind of open to, to allow them to freely kind of meet up or interact and that then they were kept in a, let's say 10 or 12 acre enclosure together for about a month and then they were taken from there and we brought them to the reserve where they are, where they were released.

[Robert Arrington]

Okay, so in this month when you're, when they're in this, this reserve, this, this enclosure camp. Sorry. Yeah, yeah. Are you feeding them dead animals? You must be. Yes.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can't put a live animal in. No, no, you can't put a live animal in there. You'll be fixing fences all day long.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Paul Buoyens]

And I mean that, that would be.

[Robert Arrington]

I think, yeah, it's also an animal. Yeah, yeah, of course, of course.

[Paul Buoyens]

A lot of eyebrows.

[Robert Arrington]

I just want to set the scene here that you're not. They're still just being fed by humans animal being chucked over the fence or being drug in and you know, go to town.

[Paul Buoyens]

No, absolutely not. So there was a, the way the lines were released was actually what we scientifically referred to as a hard release. So there was no pre release training for these lions whatsoever. They had no training for hunting or for exploring or marking territory or whatever you want them or, or dehabituation to, to humans. There was no such thing. From where they were kept, where they were put together in that camp, they were brought to the reserve and there was another four hectares or. Man, I struggle with the acres, let's, let's call it 12 Acres Camp with a release boma. Basically we put them in there for another six weeks just to make sure that they're acclimatized and they get familiar with the area before we release them. And basically after that six weeks while, you know, for that six weeks we also fed them carcasses of dead animals. And after the six weeks I just opened up the gates and I left them and I went the next day I went back to see if they'd gone out or not. Yeah, they, they were out. They were not far. They went like 500 meters to, to a waterhole and they were lying around the water being lines being.

[Robert Arrington]

How long were you worried at that point to say these guys are not going to make it, they're not going to actually be able to feed for themselves. They don't have an idea. They have no idea. They've never seen a, A living prey animal. You would hope instinct would kick in. Like most things, like don't run from a lion. That's what they all say. Because from a predator perspective, the instinct just kicks into, like, oh, this guy's running from me. I need to go chase him.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah. So, so obviously from a, from a scientific point of view and on an animal behavior assessment, you, you are worried at sometimes that, you know, if they, if they do fail, my worry was if they do fail at one, at what point do I decide to step in and take control? That that was always my biggest fear was that I was too late to kind of help these guys, you know, And I, I was on the phone constantly with, with specialists, line specialists, to make sure that we keep monitoring these lines, to make sure that, that we don't. We had to make sure that they were in a fit body condition. Yeah, that was my biggest fear. My, my confidence as a reserve manager and as a wildlife manager was 100% behind the fact that I believe that the, not only the art, but the, you know, the, the hunger to, to hunt and to survive is instinctive. And they would, they would. I was 100% certain to a degree that they would be able to hunt. And I knew that it would maybe take them some time and there would be some injuries maybe, but we would kind of monitor that. But I was a hundred percent sure that these lines would, would catch. You know, I'll, I'll use an example. I don't know if you have pets living in your house. So we, we have a cat. Like a normal domesticated cat.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah, we're not cat people here. We're dog people.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah. So I don't know if you've ever seen a cat. When you throw a ball in front of the cat, it instinctively jumps up and it chases that ball. And I'm deliberately said instinctively because it knows it's got it. You know, it just kind of goes like, oh, hell, I've got to. You know, I gotta.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's something inside of it that says I've just gotta run after it.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah. So there are two types of behaviors in any wild animal. The one is. The one comes from. The one type comes from instinct, which is actually carried over. I don't want to say genetically, but it, it is carried over genetically. So it's, it's instinctive. Some things happen instinctively. Other things get taught. So, so animals teach each other, you know, and, and you know, a lion is a silly example. You can, you can take the smallest bird in your garden. Some things those birds know by instinct and other things they just do because they get taught that. So, so those behaviors are carried over by generation and the same, you know, it's the same for life. So it was interesting to be certain that the, you know, the requirement of hunting, of survival, the required the skill to be able to track an animal down, stalk it successfully, then kind of jump on its back or tackle it, and then to know how to kill it and to know how to eat it, all of those things had to be instinctive. And that would, you know, that was kind of the biggest theme.

[Robert Arrington]

Then it happened.

[Paul Buoyens]

Make or break within. Well, I'm sure it happened quicker than we actually saw. But the first successful kill that we actually recorded and saw was within 10 days of release.

[Robert Arrington]

They're probably getting pretty hungry at that point.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah, yeah. But I mean, please ask me what they caught within 10 days.

[Robert Arrington]

What did they catch within 10 days?

[Paul Buoyens]

A 54 inch kudu bull. Jeez. Imagine that, a lion that has never hunted by itself. It's never had the opportunity, never has it had the desire to track something down, stalk it and kill it and it goes out and it kills something that some supposed, you know, hunters cannot do if you give them a 300 win mag and some never get the opportunity of doing. These lions knew at the age of two and a half years that they had to kill their kutobull. If they don't want to die of hunger, they don't want to starve to death.

[Robert Arrington]

So they were successful in taking food. That was number one. Yep. Number two for it to be a functional, what we talked about, functioning, rewilding, dare I say, was reproduction.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah. So first of all, really important for reproduction is body condition. So they need to acquire food before they can, you know, kind of thinking of reproducing. And then really important for lions is the social interaction that they needed to kind of figure out. What we saw was that while they were in the holding boma, on this reserve where they were supposed to be released and eventually did get to be released, we did see some behavior similar to what would have seen, like courtship, you know, and then the first, obviously it was successful. They bred, so they reproduced. But the first litter of cubs were born 160 or 170 days post release from the boma. So lions are, the gestation period for lions is between 110 and 120 days. So contraception actually happened post release. It Happened while they were outside and not inside. Might have been for a couple of reasons. I don't know why, never went into it. It was just. To me, it was really interesting to notice that. And I mean, we are really accurate with the birth of the cabs because we actually, some of the lines we put satellite collars on just to make sure that we can track them and so, so that we can keep an eye on them. And then obviously when we'd see that they kind of range that they'd be utilizing when, when that got smaller, we knew that something had changed. And we walked in with a whole bunch of people and we walked in and we saw these cubs and their eyes were still closed. So we, we pretty accurate with the date of birth on most of the litters.

[Robert Arrington]

Okay, so how do you measure? Yeah, go ahead.

[Paul Buoyens]

Sorry. So obviously the breeding where. I'm not going to say breeding, breeding is. People think breeding only happens in enclosure. So reproduction was really successful within three or four months. I can't remember. I think they were released in mid January 2017 and by July of that year, all of all four of the Lionesses had given birth to their first litter of capsule.

[Robert Arrington]

Okay.

[Paul Buoyens]

Which was awesome.

[Robert Arrington]

And did that F1 generation make it?

[Paul Buoyens]

Yes, I think there was one mortality. If I remember correctly, this is a long time ago. I think there was one mortality which is actually anthropogenically induced. Sorry to say that, but one of the cubs went to a water reservoir that was used on the reserve to keep water and then distribute it to different waterholes and it fell in there somehow and it drowned. But I think there were 12, there were 13 cubs born between the four females in the first litter. And only that we only had that one mortality.

[Robert Arrington]

So could you argue that? And here's one of the things that I would say is the first problem and not, not, not tied to ranch lines being released, but lions writ large in enclosed reserves. 13 cubs plus the 4, that's 17 lions. That's probably very close to capacity at 22,000 hectares, right?

[Paul Buoyens]

Yes.

[Robert Arrington]

But immediately, like the ranch reserve is going to be like, holy. I don't, I don't need any more lions.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah. So luckily the. Obviously the cubs still suckle up until the age of about six months, so they don't really have an effect on the prey populations. But as soon as they become to an adult age, which is around four to five years, then, then it becomes an issue and obviously they start hunting smaller game and, and hares and rabbits and stuff like that. At the age of 18 months, they already start doing that. So then they of start having that big effect on you. So the management on the reserve had to have their finger on the lion population at all times because the permit for the release of the lions also was conducive to certain conditions. And one of them obviously being the quantity of lions that could be kept. So, but like I said, most of the times those conditions are based on the number of adult lines you can keep. And then it's up to the reserve management to say that, well, you know, we've kind of done this ecological calculation and we can only keep so many of adult, sub, adult up to cub age. That's what we can sustainably harvest on, not harvest harbor on the, on the property. And that's, that's the thing with any wild managed population of any species is that you need to keep your finger on how many you have and that you make sure that the, the quantity of animals are sustainable.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah. You know, to me, the biggest issues when it comes to lions in reserves, and we just talked about both of them. Right. Is the proliferation of lions. And if they're, if they're in a very good environment with good prey, the reproduction is going to go through the roof and you're going to get an overabundance of lines very quickly.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah.

[Robert Arrington]

So there's a problem, number one, very quickly there's a problem.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yes.

[Robert Arrington]

Number two, my prey is my economic asset. Correct. And my economic assets being chowed by these lions. And as they get more lions, my prey goes down even quicker. And I, So I can see right off the bat when we start talking about, we haven't even got into the controversy yet, but if, if, if there was an opportunity for people to take lions and put them on the reserves, there were two major hurdles immediately to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, thanks but no thanks. Same situation with elephants. Yep, thanks. No, thanks.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah, so just to, just to kind of answer what really is on the question. But so, so to me, there's two different types of management models and I've seen it in the area where we work. The one is if you have a hunting operation or outfitting business and your, your business model is based on that, then obviously the prey species is your economic, you know, the, that's what, that's how you make money. And then you don't want too many lions. But there are reserves who do only, let's say photographic safaris, let's call them photographic safaris. To them, lions are worth much more than the prey species. So I've seen A lot of these reserves, what they do is they kind of take the knock on the prey species and every year they just resupplement. So they'll go every year. So they keep a lot of lines because they know this is what attracts the dollars and the euros and that's what keeps the reserve going. And it's. I'm not, I'm not disrespecting that. That's 100% fine. That's one business model. That's how they do it. So every year they buy thousands of prey species and just let them go on the reserve so that the lions can kind of carry on. What's interesting, though, is I'm kind of sidetracking. But what's interesting though is that many of those animals that get released actually come from smaller ranches that can be seen as breeding of prey species. Zebra and buffalo and sable, all of those things, you know, they kind of get farmed, if you want to call it farmed, in the same way that the lions are. Um, anyway, so obviously then the other side is, like I said, is, is a hunting outfit. So it depends on what you want to do. Um, but lions do breed really well where there's, where there's sufficient amount of, of prey for them. So they breed really quickly. Um, and that is.

[Robert Arrington]

So, Paul, why is there not. You know, I've, I, I think I've laid out the two major concerns from a, like, taking lines perspective. Is, are those two things driving the fact that nobody wants to take these lines?

[Paul Buoyens]

I mean, yeah, it's a, it's a massive financial burden to be. To have lines on your property. It's. It's a big financial burden to have lines on your property. Just, just to, you know, let's quantify that. So in the, within the first year of these five lines being released on the property and them having those 13 or 12 Cubs, within the first year, we, we never really. Because the focus of the study was not to kind of calculate how much of the prey was, how much of the antelope were being caught, how many of the antler were being caught. But we did do a wildlife census the year prior and in the first year after them being released, and only on the blue wildebeest, we noticed a decline of 240animals, 240bluewildebeests at a average live wildlife auction, price of, let's say at that time, 8,000 South African rands per vilder beers. You can do the sum. It's a big financial burden to be carrying lions, but if your if your business model allows for that and you can use the lines to generate an income, then obviously it makes sense.

[Robert Arrington]

So, Paul, I've. To me what I've heard and it makes sense. The reason why a lot of these ranch lines and people, you know, they say using these ranch lines and putting lines back on people's lands, it cannot be considered lion conservation because of the genetic diversity issue tied to these captive bred lions, I. E. There's no real understanding of the genetic lines of mom and dad and inbreeding and whatnot and how that potentially. And I think that's a big, a big if. And I, and, and I also see it not being a big if. I also see it being a big problem that if those inbreeding genetics somehow go into absolutely wild lions, for instance, like the Krueger system and what else. But there's not very. How many. Let me just stop there before I add something else to it. What do you think about that?

[Paul Buoyens]

So first of all, like I said in the beginning to me, I chase the truth and I look at it from a scientific perspective. So first of all, where's the scientific proof that captive bred lions are inbred? There's, there's no paper published on that. Contrary to that, there was a paper published in other 20, 24 or 23 where they deliberately went and took lions from. Damn it, I can't remember where. Some other open reserve wild lines, in other words. And they compared that to the genetic diversity of lions from 10 different breeding ranges. And the, I mean, the conclusion of the paper was that the, the, the genetic variance wasn't that, that much greater in, in the wild lions. In fact, in, in some instances, there was a greater genetic diversity within the ranch lines than there were in some of the wild or managed wild populations. You need to understand that.

[Robert Arrington]

Can you send me that paper?

[Paul Buoyens]

Yes, of course I will.

[Robert Arrington]

Okay, perfect.

[Paul Buoyens]

So first of all, we need to classify lions just for the sake of the listeners. These wild lions, which are defined within the biodiversity management plan for African lions, which is a public document. So there's wild lions which are defined as any lion population for which, which does not have to be managed in any sense. So, and then they add to the definition by saying that only those occurring in national and provincial parks, so that it's, that's the only way you can be defined as a, as a wild lion population. Then we have wild managed population. So typically those are all the populations.

[Robert Arrington]

So hold on, before you move on to wild man, let's, before you move on to wild Manners. How many wild lion populations do we have in South Africa?

[Paul Buoyens]

I don't know the amount of populations, but estimated between 2000 and 2500 lions.

[Robert Arrington]

No, no, I mean areas. Sorry, I, I, I confused areas. How many wild line errors do we have? We have Kruger obviously.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah.

[Robert Arrington]

So do we have the apnr would be that, would that would APNR be considered Kruger? I would consider it Kruger.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah. It's, I mean it's open to it.

[Robert Arrington]

Correct, Correct.

[Paul Buoyens]

So it's connected. Yeah, so it's connected. And then we have the, used to be called the Kalahadi Transfunctia Conservation Area.

[Robert Arrington]

Okay, I would say yes, that's true. That's two.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah. And then we have the Mapungupwe, the Greater Mapungupwe Trans Frontier Conservation Area. That's another one.

[Robert Arrington]

Day three.

[Paul Buoyens]

And we have the Cishlui. And for lows, four.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah, and then, and then what about addo?

[Paul Buoyens]

Addo, sure. By per definition they should, should be defined as wild manager. That's the issue I'm coming to because ADO is enclosed, there's a dot. So it's, it's basically correct. Wild managed area. And the population on the reserve has to be managed. So certain, certain demographics have, have to be managed by the, by the management. So they need to control how many lions are on there. Same with my diqu. Same with p, Same with many of the pox.

[Robert Arrington]

Paul, are you telling people that people are killing and euthanizing lions in these small enclosed game reserves?

[Paul Buoyens]

They are definitely without a doubt, in national and provincial parks, lions are being euthanized every year.

[Robert Arrington]

And I don't think anybody realizes that. Honestly, I think it blows. I think people are so blinded that they're like, oh no, the lions are taking care of themselves. No, they, as we've just described, four lions become 18 lions very, very quickly. Correct. And every year to maintain, you can't have a hundred lions.

[Paul Buoyens]

Needs to be managed.

[Robert Arrington]

They have to kill the lions. They have to either translocate. And there's three options here, right? Translocate. Not many places will translocate. Maybe there's some meta population work happening moving lines between Pilonberg and Medique. Euthanize, hunt, cull, th, that's it.

[Paul Buoyens]

So if, if, if there are other options, please someone tell me what they are. Because you said contraception.

[Robert Arrington]

Do they do contraception in lines?

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah, yeah, that's a big thing in the wild managed population.

[Robert Arrington]

So okay, there's five.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah, yeah. So all the lions in the privately owned reserve, most of them have some or other form of contraceptive measure exercised upon them because you know, like we said, it's, it's a big financial burden, you know, so, so they need to control that by some way. And there's not many places you can take lines. So that comes back to the first option you gave of translocation, so.

[Robert Arrington]

Which you smiled at.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yeah, because it's interesting to me, you know, and I'm, I'm very, very opinionated about it and people are going to crucify me and that's okay. I don't really care. So, you know, there's four different genetic clades of the African lion. Forget about the Asiatic line. Those are completely demographically differentiated from the others. So we have the West African clade of lions and then we have the East African, the, and the Central African and the southern African line. So these are all genetically different. And there are some scientific papers written about this as well. Published, published papers, peer reviewed papers written about this. So you know, scientific fact, they are different when you look at them phenotypically. In other words, how they look on the outside, you and I probably won't know the difference. Okay, so the West African line is actually, they found much, you know, much closer genetically related to the Asiatic line, which is only found in a very small population in India. So they're much more similar to those. So if we translocate lions from South Africa, we can basically go as far north as Tanzania and then you'll get stopped, you won't get approval for translocation of lions into those states further north and definitely not to the western states. So the western states in West Africa, the approximate number of living lions in the entire West Africa is about 200 adult individuals, which is concerning. I mean, obviously.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah, I watched a video the other day of somewhere up there, Gambia or Sierra Leone or something like that, there was a new, there's a new Africa park or Peace park or whatnot. Find and found like four or five lions in it and went in. They've done an amazing job. And I think there's now like 40 lines or 45 lines and whatnot protecting the area, obviously keeping poachers out and then the prey base come up. So yeah, some great efforts.

[Paul Buoyens]

Most probably put up some fences somewhere, but I mean that's great. So the West African genetic clade of the African line are definitely in trouble. But let's say I was to translocate lions from South Africa to a different African country where there is a need for lions in that country. First of all, you need to determine why there's a need for lions. So in other words, why, why was there a decline in the lion population in the first place? There's no point in sending this, just sending lions to a country, letting them free just to be killed by snares or angry people or whatever the case may be. So, so translocation is a tricky one, really is a tricky one. And then you know, all of the other stuff that you need to consider is contractable diseases that can be carried to. So it's, it's a, it's a nightmare to try and translocate lines out of South Africa from South Africa and the South African lion population, the meta population which is the wild managed population and the wild population is, is basically at capacity. So another interesting thing that, that I found while I was doing the research is, and, and I wrote it in my thesis. I got, you know, got highly criticized about it. But I'll say it again. If, if you want to take wild lions from a wild population in South Africa, we mentioned it. It's Sushli, Amphilos, Kruger National Park, Mapungupwe and Khalakadi. So Kruger national park you have a risk of, a high risk of sending out lines that already have tuberculosis. Sure you can test for it. But if, if you tell me as a landowner I'm going to send you lions from the Kruger National Park, I'm going to say not worth it, but I'll get them from somewhere else. Not worth the exercise. So we can rule out the 2,000 lions that are in the Kruger national park. We can rule them out for translocations. Hallahadi and Mapungupwe, the populations are too, are basically too small to be considered for translocation efforts. So there's a high risk of inbreeding coefficient being very high. Okay, so also not tasted theory, but the populations are really small. So you'd be moving a very narrow genetic line to somewhere else. If I can experiment like that. So schlute has been. I'm going to get into trouble for this. So Schluimian Falas is known for inbreeding within their lion population. So where do you want to get a lion from? You want to get a line from one of those national parks or do you want to get a lion from a well managed reserve which have most probably been contraceptive by the time that you, you get it? Or do you want to take a chance on a captive bread line and release a captive bread line on this newly established wherever the translocation might get you? My theory.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah, maybe. I think that at the end of the day, I think the rhetoric, I think people get wrapped around the axle, around like the idea that captive bred lions is not classified as lion conservation because of whatever biodiversity and genetics, but in my brain, if I'm a landowner, right. If I want lions you just mentioned, you know, I'm going to go through all of the steps for how I can get a line. Most likely the only lines that are available will be surplus of wild managed, if not contracepted. For the most part though, they'll probably be contraceptive because these guys have thing thought about management or had lines for a substantial number of years. Yeah. And so the only, the only line that potentially not the only, because I don't want to pigeonhole, the majority of lines that potentially are available are captive bred. And if those lines of mine, again, I can see that I'm sort of going through the thought process here. If I'm going to put lines on my property, they'll increase in abundance on my property, I've increased the line population writ large. Okay, yes, that is true. Now if I wanted to then sell my lines or give my lines to someone else, I could understand potential. And you've already, you know, you've said, look, there's no, there's no, there's no signs to the genetic of inbreeding, there's no signs of change in genetics. You mentioned that there's potentially science to the, to the opposite. Sure. I could see somebody going, well, I don't want your lines because, oh, they came from a ranching facility. Well then I would do the same thing as a wild managed lion reserve, which means I'd contracept my lines and I'd be happy with one female doing the breeding and not all four. And I'd, I'd have my cup turnover and I'd get my X Y and I'd get my stuff that I want, I'd get my ecotourism, I'd get my photographics.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yep.

[Robert Arrington]

So I, I guess I understand the biodiversity conundrum, I understand the preservation of genetics, I understand the, I understand the rhetoric, but I can also understand if somebody wants lines and how you manage lines and the, the logistics and practicalities on the ground tied to ranch McGarrett.

[Paul Buoyens]

So, so what I found was that the biggest issue that we ran into because after this, after this project was successful, we tried to reintroduce some lines onto, you know, some reserves got a hold of me and said, you know, we want to introduce lines into our property. Can you help us run Lines. I said sure, we got thousands of lines. They immediately said no captive bred lions. And what's interesting about that is they weren't, you know, they weren't as concerned with the genetic diversity as they were with the possible habituation of the animals and the possible linked risk to driving around with tourists and having habituated lines. Lines habituated to human. And you know, one guy said to me, these captive bread lines, they know that when they see a vehicle it's food and it's going to jump on the back of the Land Rover and it's going to kill the line's going to kill its his guests. Which is, I mean I wouldn't say completely impossible but from our study we, that's something that we kept a really close eye on was the behavior of the lines towards vehicles. And it was really similar to what you'd expect of a wild line. So they also, also have this flight or fright zone, flight or fight zone within which, within which they are no longer comfortable with your presence. And I, I think you know, in, in the six or seven years in, in which we did the study there was one lioness that charged me once, that is because she had cubs and I, I'd come way too close to her. She turned around and she kind of mock charged us up to about five or six meters and she turned around. Never had one lion. And I told you the history of these lions being born model said and use this anti poaching deterrence or as poaching deterrence. And never once had I had one line jump on the back of a vehicle, climb on a game viewing vehicle, climb on a, whatever type of vehicle, stopping my, the, the staff on the reserve while doing their daily jobs never had one incident, not one. So to me I, I don't see that. You know, sure there's, there's a one in a million but you might as well get hit by a bus, you know what I mean? So, so that, that seems to be the biggest fear. And then obviously people don't really want to touch these subjects so they don't want to be associated with the captive breeding industry. And, and I, I feel that that's the biggest issue with, with getting captive bread lines into reserves from a reserve management perspective.

[Robert Arrington]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's certainly a controversial topic. It's certainly something that's going to be continually debated. It's certainly going to have a stigma around it because it's lines. And again I think it's just, I'm a big proponent of people having discussions amicable discussions that have differing opinions around this thing that we love so much, which is wildlife conservation, lion conservation, habitat protection, you name it. You know, we are facing constant pressures from humanity on those three things. Yeah. And so we may have to come up with extraordinary innovations or solutions to move forward. And, you know, everything should be on the table until absolutely proven, like beyond a shadow of a doubt. This is not going to absolutely work. So that's, that's just where I, I stand.

[Paul Buoyens]

Yep. I'm. Look, I, I agree with you. I just, I want to say, and like I said in the beginning, I have no financial gain whatsoever from line breeding. I mean, not even from lion hunting. There's no benefit for me in, in releasing capital pit lines. So I want to say two things real quick. What is the difference when we're talking about rewilding and how some, some of the NGOs nowadays are making a lot of money by advertising their, their rewilding efforts? So tell me the difference between rewilding a. I don't want to, I don't want to use a known example, a, a herd of elephants from a zoo in Chicago to Africa and we rewild them and we send them back to Africa and we release them. What is the difference between that and releasing a captive bread line? I don't see the difference in that. So if someone can explain to me what that difference is, I'm all ears. And the other thing is, I really want to ask people that when they do come across statements made about the captive industry, about not so much the captive industry, about rewilding and about the suitability of the rewilding of captive bred lions. Just test the so called truth that you are being told. That's all I'm asking. Just make sure that what you are being said is absolutely, scientifically, 100% the truth. Then we can have a debate. No problem.

[Robert Arrington]

Well said. Well said. Thanks, Paul. It was great meeting you in South Africa. Thank you so much for the amazing podcast. I'm sure it won't be the last time that we interact. And you need to send me your book. Okay. Once it's in print, I can't read it digitally. All right. I need to read it in paper.

[Paul Buoyens]

It just smells.

[Robert Arrington]

Maybe I'll get it to you next time I'll get it from you and next time I'm in South Africa. Okay.

[Paul Buoyens]

Please do. I hope to see you, Robbie. Thanks so much for the opportunity. Appreciate it.

[Robert Arrington]

You're welcome, brother. Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends, and, most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting. Want to plan your next fishing trip without the hassle? FishingBooker.com is the best way to find and book a fishing charter anywhere in the world. Whether you're chasing trophy fish or just looking for a family day on the water, fishingbooker makes it simple, fast and secure. With thousands of experienced guides, verified reviews and 247 customer support, FishingBooker takes the guesswork out of planning. Visit fishingbooker.com and book your trip today. FishingBooker Fishing trips made easy Gear up.

[Paul Buoyens]

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