Episode 559 - Shahid Zaman || A State View of Pakistan’s Wildlife Conservation

Summary

Podcast Summary: Blood Origins Episode: 559 - Shahid Zaman || A State View of Pakistan’s Wildlife Conservation
Release Date: May 15, 2025
Host/Author: Blood Origins Inc.
Description: Blood Origins is a non-profit organization that combines unique storytelling with conservation efforts to reshape perceptions of hunting and enhance the efficiency of funding conservation programs globally.

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1. Introduction to Shahid Zaman and His Role

Timestamp: [01:12]

Shahid Zaman serves as the Secretary for Climate, Environment, Wildlife, and Forestry for the government of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa (KP), a province in Pakistan. With over two decades of experience in various state government roles across multiple provinces, Shahid provides invaluable insights into Pakistan’s wildlife conservation strategies, particularly the role of hunting.

Notable Quote:

"There's a reason why I started Blood Origins, and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting."
— Shahid Zaman ([01:12])

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2. The Role of Hunting in Conservation in Pakistan

Timestamp: [02:39] - [05:43]

Shahid Zaman articulates the complex relationship between hunting and wildlife conservation in Pakistan. Contrary to common perceptions, hunting has been instrumental in the resurgence of various wildlife species across the country. Shahid emphasizes that responsible and regulated hunting practices have not only helped increase animal populations but also funded significant conservation initiatives.

Notable Quote:

"There’s a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be... but really, hunting has played a major role in wildlife resurgence across Pakistan."
— Shahid Zaman ([03:03])

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3. Success Stories: Markhor and Ibex Populations

Timestamp: [13:03] - [23:14]

Shahid discusses the remarkable recovery of the markhor population, which surged from fewer than 300 individuals to over 4,000 thanks to regulated hunting permits. Similarly, the ibex population has seen a significant increase, aided by community-driven protection efforts. These successes are attributed to the strategic implementation of hunting permits that balance conservation needs with sustainable economic benefits for local communities.

Notable Quote:

"The hunting that took place up north was largely for meat by the local community. And the moment you converted that hoofed animal from a piece of meat to $250,000, here they were all protecting them."
— Shahid Zaman ([19:02])

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4. Revenue from Hunting Permits and Community Benefits

Timestamp: [25:16] - [32:24]

A critical aspect of Pakistan’s conservation model is the financial benefit derived from hunting permits. Shahid explains that 80% of the revenue from each permit directly benefits local communities. These funds are managed through joint accounts overseen by community committees, ensuring transparency and effective use for local development projects such as education, infrastructure, and community welfare.

Notable Quote:

"Whatever my level of knowledge is about some of those countries is far higher. In our case, when we do $271,000, for example, 80% of that goes to the community."
— Shahid Zaman ([28:56])

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5. Conservation Governance and Policy

Timestamp: [10:38] - [18:17]

Shahid delves into the administrative structure of Pakistan’s wildlife conservation efforts. As part of the federal cadre, he has served as Secretary of Wildlife in multiple provinces, including KP, GB (Gilgit-Baltistan), and Punjab. This mobility is facilitated by Pakistan’s federated administrative system, allowing experienced officials to implement best practices across different regions. Shahid highlights the importance of policy-driven approaches combined with community involvement to sustain conservation success.

Notable Quote:

"The Secretary has two jobs, basically speaking: policy feedback and administering the sector."
— Shahid Zaman ([12:44])

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6. Challenges and Future Plans

Timestamp: [34:50] - [43:50]

Despite successes, Pakistan faces ongoing challenges such as habitat pressure from a growing population and agricultural expansion. Shahid discusses initiatives to mitigate these pressures, including reintroduction programs for species like the snow leopard and efforts to incentivize communities to preserve natural habitats. Future plans include expanding the number of hunting permits to distribute benefits more broadly and further enhance wildlife protection.

Notable Quote:

"The success story of the trophy hunting program in all provinces has been so unbelievably fantastic that... there's no rolling back on it, none whatsoever."
— Shahid Zaman ([42:50])

---

7. Overcoming Stereotypes and Promoting Pakistan’s Conservation Success

Timestamp: [46:39] - [51:45]

Shahid addresses the negative stereotypes often associated with Pakistan, emphasizing the country's robust and successful wildlife conservation efforts. He advocates for greater global recognition of Pakistan’s achievements in this field and encourages potential hunters and conservationists to consider Pakistan as a prime destination for sustainable hunting and conservation collaboration.

Notable Quote:

"We have a fantastic hunting scene. And obviously, if there's a great hunting scene, if I tell you a figure, in KP alone, we have 135 partridge reserves."
— Shahid Zaman ([49:12])

---

8. Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Timestamp: [52:07] - [52:36]

Shahid Zaman concludes by reiterating the importance of responsible hunting as a conservation tool and encourages listeners to support and spread the truth about hunting’s positive impact on wildlife preservation in Pakistan.

Notable Quote:

"Do what's right to convey the truth around hunting."
— Shahid Zaman ([52:07])

---

Key Takeaways:

• Hunting as a Conservation Tool: In Pakistan, regulated hunting has significantly contributed to the resurgence of key wildlife species.
• Community Benefits: A substantial portion of hunting permit revenues supports local communities, ensuring sustainable and transparent use of funds.
• Administrative Structure: Experienced officials like Shahid Zaman play a pivotal role in implementing effective conservation policies across various provinces.
• Success Stories: The markhor’s population boom from fewer than 300 to over 4,000 exemplifies the success of Pakistan’s conservation strategies.
• Challenges and Future Plans: Addressing habitat pressures and expanding permit programs are critical for ongoing conservation efforts.
• Global Perception: Efforts are underway to change negative stereotypes and highlight Pakistan’s achievements in wildlife conservation.

This episode provides an insightful look into how Pakistan leverages hunting as a sustainable conservation strategy, benefiting both wildlife and local communities. Shahid Zaman’s expertise sheds light on the intricate balance between maintaining biodiversity and supporting socio-economic development through thoughtful policy and community engagement.

Transcript

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[Shahid Zaman]

Is the Secretary of Wildlife, the State Secretary of Wildlife of kp. I cannot articulate what KP stands for, but it's a province in Pakistan. You'll hear the actual name of it in this podcast. Shahid is a incredibly articulate individual and has been in a state government in Pakistan for, I think over two decades. I wanted to hear directly from him and he's moved around. He's been the State Secretary of several different provinces in Pakistan and again, I asked him how that's possible and he describes it in this podcast. But really I wanted to understand how hunting has played a role in wildlife conservation in Pakistan, if at all. And what you will find out is that it has played a major role in wildlife resurgence across Pakistan. Probably not a surprise to you listening to this podcast. If you like this podcast, share it. Share it with your friends to give them a better idea of this crazy strange place called Pakistan and it'll totally change their minds of what actually is happening on the ground there. So enjoy. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins, and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting.

[Mike Axelrod]

It brings awareness to non hunters that.

[Brittany]

It'S more than just killing animals.

[Mike Axelrod]

How do I start it?

[Braxton]

Brittany My name.

[Mike Axelrod]

Does my hair look okay?

[Brittany]

My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it, too. Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time.

[Shahid Zaman]

There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a.

[Brittany]

Non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the.

[Shahid Zaman]

Last 20 years is likely not the.

[Brittany]

Thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter. Is this your. How many times you been to America? Lots.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, I used to go to school here.

[Brittany]

Oh, yeah?

[Mike Axelrod]

Where? Yeah, Minnesota. McAllister, St. Paul, Minneapolis.

[Brittany]

So you're used to the white stuff?

[Mike Axelrod]

I was there four years.

[Brittany]

Is there where you're from in Pakistan, any snow?

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, yeah, lots. We have the Himalayas, you know, the Karakoro.

[Brittany]

Where are you from? Are you from. You're not from the Himalayas in the Karakora?

[Mike Axelrod]

No, I'm. I'm. I'm from where actually I'm from. We do get snow regularly.

[Brittany]

Every year.

[Mike Axelrod]

Almost.

[Brittany]

Almost every year.

[Mike Axelrod]

Almost.

[Brittany]

So Minnesota wasn't.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, it isn't like Minnesota. Yeah. And the winters are not as harsh, but. But, yeah, cold enough.

[Brittany]

Shahid, please introduce yourself.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay. So, good morning. I'm Shahid Zaman and I'm the Secretary for Climate, Environment, Wildlife and Forestry for the government of KP in Pakistan.

[Brittany]

KP stands for.

[Mike Axelrod]

KP stands for Khyber Pokhtunkhwa.

[Brittany]

We are not going to say that. I'm just going to say kp.

[Mike Axelrod]

Kp. And KP is one of the four provinces of Kazakhstan. Yes.

[Brittany]

What are the other three provinces?

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay. We have Punjab, we have Balochistan, and we have Sindh. And then we have two regions, federal regions. One is called GB Gilgit, Baltistan, and one is Kashmir.

[Brittany]

And those regions overlap the provinces, right?

[Mike Axelrod]

No, no. They have their own. Their autonomous regions.

[Brittany]

So there's no geographic overlap?

[Mike Axelrod]

No. Oh, no.

[Brittany]

So while it's. So why are there not six provinces?

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay. That is related to our peculiar regional situation. Political situation in which the two regions have a very specified political. What would I call it? Political standing based on the history of Pakistan. And one is called Free Kashmir and the other is called Gbaltistan. And they have their own assemblies and they have their own governments, but they are administered in a way from the federal and political environment.

[Brittany]

Okay. So you are the secretary.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yes.

[Brittany]

Of kp.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yes.

[Brittany]

But you were telling me yesterday you've been a secretary of three other provinces too.

[Mike Axelrod]

That is correct. I was Secretary Environment, Forestry and Wildlife in gb. Okay. And then I was secretary for.

[Brittany]

Which is the region which is One.

[Mike Axelrod]

Of the regions, One of the two regions. And I was Secretary of Wildlife, Fisheries and Forest Forestry in Punjab.

[Brittany]

And so how. Explain to me how that's possible. Because to me you, you'd have to live in the place to be able to be a government official of the place. So you're moving around.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Brittany]

Purposefully?

[Mike Axelrod]

No, this is how it happens. We have our administrative structure basically because we are a federation. So we have a two structured or bi structural administrative arrangement. We have what we call as the federal cas and then we have what we would and we have what we call as the provincial or regional CAs. And so the regional cadre folks can also become secretaries, but they stay within their region. The provincial cadre folks also become secretaries but they stay within their province and the federal cadre moves around.

[Brittany]

And you're part of the federal.

[Mike Axelrod]

I'm part of the federal cadre.

[Brittany]

Okay, yeah. And so you've been the secretary of some sort of wildlife in four or three different provinces?

[Mike Axelrod]

In three. Three, yes. This is my third.

[Brittany]

And how long have you been in KP now?

[Mike Axelrod]

I've been there since May 2024.

[Brittany]

And how long in total have you been in the government role?

[Mike Axelrod]

Uh huh. I've been in government for 25 years.

[Brittany]

And I assume before you, you had some other position before you were secretary? Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, allow me to explain that.

[Shahid Zaman]

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[Mike Axelrod]

So what happens is when you join the federal cadre, you basically join it through a countrywide examination. And you come in at a young age. So I was about 28. And you come in and your first position, which is called assistant commissioner.

[Brittany]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

And then you rise, you become a deputy commissioner, commissioner if you're doing a field job, and then you become a secretary if you're. But you crisscross between the field jobs and the secretarial jobs. So you on the secretarial side you go back to the. To the Secretariat and you become a Deputy Secretary, Additional Secretary, and then Special Secretary and then a secretary. So it's, It's a.

[Brittany]

It's a ladder. You're climbing the ladder.

[Mike Axelrod]

Exactly, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So I've been secretary of other departments as well. I've been secretary.

[Brittany]

Do they still let you get into the field?

[Mike Axelrod]

You can. Yeah, you can go back and become a commissioner once again.

[Brittany]

Do you miss being in the field?

[Mike Axelrod]

No, not really. There's a reason for that. Because when you're in the field, like at my level in the field, you would be a commissioner.

[Brittany]

Correct.

[Mike Axelrod]

And the commissioner's job is largely administrative and appellate. He's an appellate authority for so many things.

[Brittany]

You're not actually doing things on the ground, even though you're technically in the field.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. You don't do policy work.

[Brittany]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know, and I prefer to do policy work. So if you're a secretary, you have both administrative authority and policy authority. Because one of the two jobs that you. One of the two tasks that you have to do is to be the. To give policy feed to the government. That's your job. So you have. One does have a minister as well. In my case, the chief minister of my province is my minister. And in between me and the chief minister, there's something called as a special assistant who's a political person who comes in by vote. And so we have a special assistant to the Chief Minister who guides him and so on and so forth. And then the Chief minister happens to be my minister. Otherwise one can have a regular minister also. But in my case it's the chief minister of the province.

[Brittany]

It's not complicated at all.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, I can draw it and it'll start making more sense. But having said that, the Secretary has two jobs, basically speaking a policy feedback and administering the sector. So that's why I think it's a far more attractive position than being a commissioner.

[Brittany]

Shahid, tell people. I don't think a lot of people know. Number one, you've got pretty good wildlife in Turkish stan. Yes, right, absolutely. You've got leopards.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yes.

[Brittany]

You've got bears.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yes. Both brown and black wolves.

[Brittany]

We've got wolves, jackals.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, yes.

[Brittany]

Oh, yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

Lots of them.

[Brittany]

And then you've got all the antelope species.

[Mike Axelrod]

We've got. On the antelope side, we've got the gazelle.

[Brittany]

Yep.

[Mike Axelrod]

And we have recently reintroduced. In which I played a part myself also, and my predecessor also played a part, we've reintroduced the once extinct black buck.

[Brittany]

Okay. But You've also got blue bulls.

[Mike Axelrod]

We've got Blue Bull also.

[Brittany]

Okay. You got Chittel.

[Mike Axelrod]

We've got chital, not the way we used to have, but we want to start a reintroduction program for that as well. We've got a captive herd, but certain private game reserves have chital.

[Brittany]

And there's lots of. What Salim was saying which was quite mind blowing to me was you guys have actually quite a few private reserves that are breeding animals in Kwakutan, right? Yes. Your people are breeding Marco. You got people breeding Uriels. You've got people breeding blackbuck.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yes, yes, and blackbuck are being bred.

[Brittany]

And why are they doing that? Okay, so are they doing it specifically for reintroduction efforts or is it more private sales between individuals?

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, both. Okay. Originally, you know, we have these very elaborate rules for having private breeding farms. So you have private breeding farms. And a lot of the lot of the work that was coming out of the private breeding farms was basically selling to folks who wanted to, you know, just keep those animals in their farms or, you know, so. And estates or so on and so forth. So largely the private breeding farms are doing that kind of activity. They're not in the, in the business of reintroduction. But of late, which is, I would say maybe last two decades, the private game reserves have risen in number. And the private game reserves obviously had to get their animals from somewhere, so they were either breeding them themselves or started, you know.

[Brittany]

And why are they doing it specifically?

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, the private game. The private game reserves.

[Brittany]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, the private game reserves are, are carrying out hunting, Paid hunting. Oh yeah. And they are more in Sindh, in Punjab when I was there.

[Brittany]

Are we talking high fence places or.

[Mike Axelrod]

They largely just open, open areas? Just open, open large landed estates, you.

[Brittany]

Know, and they protect them. They have to. Obviously poaching is something that happens in Pakistan.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yes, poaching, I mean, I suppose, you know, just as poaching happens everywhere, we've got poaching too. And so in the private game reserves, obviously they have to take care that nobody comes in and does the poaching. The poaching largely happens in the state owned areas, which are vast. Obviously we're talking the desert, the, the Thar desert, we're talking the Cholestan desert, we're talking the Himalayan, the Karakoram ranges. So poaching does happen, but it's not rife. It's not as if it's.

[Brittany]

Would you, would the Pakistani people and you as a secretary class it as poaching? So the whole markhor story, you know, Marko were down to 300.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Brittany]

Now it was people poaching the Marco or literally eating them.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[Brittany]

Because they needed to eat something.

[Mike Axelrod]

Good question. So let me compare the two different kinds of poaching. So for example, if we, if we target the desert, let's say the Thar Desert or the Choristan desert, the poaching is largely done there by these folks who are hunters. And considering the fact that in the desert for chinkara, gazelle and blue bull, since they were. No, since there are no permits being given, so obviously the hunters find their own way and you know, so largely the poaching is by hunters. That's why when I was secretary in Punjab, I came up with this whole policy of what are they, if they're.

[Brittany]

Poaching, what are they doing with that animal?

[Mike Axelrod]

Of course they eat them. Yeah.

[Brittany]

They're not selling it.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, no. But there is also, in the desert, there is a selling element to it as well. And those are basically small time guys who go out on motorbikes at night and they, you know, hunt the animal and then sell it. So yes, that aspect is there. So there's both kind of poaching on the desert side. Now if you. So, so just to add to it on. In the Punjab, when I was there, you know, I've always being in a. I, I call myself a former hunter because I don't hunt anymore very often. I've just put my gun down just maybe 5% of the times.

[Brittany]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

In the Punjab I came out with this whole idea that everything, you know, we should give, we should do surveys and we should give out permits. So I started that, that procedure over there so that the, the hunters find a legitimate way to go out hunting and they don't have to, you know, find surreptitious ways of going in and, and, and, you know, at night and using the light, et cetera, et cetera. So we did that.

[Brittany]

So locals could actually hunt. Yes, with a permit. But a local could do it.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, the permits that we came out with in the Punjab, they, and, and I don't think they have continued them, but I hope they continue them. They were meant for lo. For locals.

[Brittany]

Perfect.

[Mike Axelrod]

Pakistanis and for foreigners.

[Brittany]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know, just on the mark.

[Brittany]

But you weren't, it wasn't just like excluding the locals.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, we had special permits for the desert, for the locals. Very, very cheap. You know, that was to incentivize them. So we did that. And unfortunately they haven't continued that in the Punjab, but I hope they do in the Punjab, of course, they have Uriel permits which are very successful, going for $20,000 plus 16 permits, et cetera. But now, if you come to the markhor story, so I'll tell you a small little anecdote. One of my. When I was secretary in GB for wildlife, one of my officers told me that 30 years ago, when he was a kid of 10 or 12, he said they used to hear that there was something called as an ibex that their forefathers used to go and hunt for meat, obviously. And he said we'd never seen them. And now they're in the thousands, the ibex and the barhor.

[Brittany]

Didn't you say something about you having to keep the ibex off the road?

[Mike Axelrod]

I did. See, we came across the situation when I was there as we started seeing a lot of ibex on the main highway and, you know, just sort of on the sides of the highway. And so there was the danger of people shooting them from the highway and just speeding away. So we came up with this whole idea of doing a highway patrol for the protection of the ibex. But the ibex, of course, off the highway ibex have been a fantastic success story. So has been the marhor. So has been the blue sheep up north. The hunting that took place up north was largely for meat by the local community. And the moment you converted that hoofed animal from a piece of meat to $250,000, you know, here they were all protecting them, you know, and the fantastic thing that came out of it was that, of course, if you, if you have to protect the ibex and the marhor and the blue sheep, you have to protect the ecology also.

[Brittany]

Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

So all these new questions started arising, you know, should they. Should they allow their domestic flocks to go up to the pastures so that.

[Brittany]

You know, is there any disease interactions between Marko and then the native goats and sheep and stuff like we have here in America?

[Mike Axelrod]

Right.

[Brittany]

We have movie between domestic sheep and.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, fortunately, up till now, it hasn't happened.

[Brittany]

Right, right.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay. But. But I, you know, I always carry that fear that it can happen. And so what we started doing in GB was, and which is what we, inshallah, will start doing in Chitral in the north of Pakistan, in the north of KP and other areas, is to start incentivizing people to keep their flocks off those pastures.

[Brittany]

And there was another competition of resources.

[Mike Axelrod]

Exactly. And they're pretty much. Because I personally go and speak to communities and I've spoken to several of them and they've Pretty much convinced that they will do that for several reasons. A, of course, is the monetization of the ibex and the, and the markhor. But secondly, there's a fantastic awareness that's come in because I've spoken to communities who have asked me to stop the mining activity in those areas and that they will. They have already stopped their own flocks from going into the higher pastures. And then there are these flocks that come in from outside who pay the communities so that the flocks can roam around the pastures. And they're going around stopping those as.

[Brittany]

Well now because the value of the markor is much higher than the value.

[Mike Axelrod]

You'Re selling that leasing. Exactly that too. That too. Exactly the value. Of course, the value difference is absolutely unbelievable. A. But, but the good thing that's come out is also that people have started appreciating the very fact that they have these animals and there's this whole 360 ecology around it. They want to protect that also. You know, this is not something which I had expected. I thought it was only the monetization aspect. But it's more than that. It's that and plus more. You know, I think as societies, you know, local societies, they have learned the value of nature which, which, which they're, you know, obviously in years past, a generation or two generations ago, you know, there was a lot of nature and then started decreasing. And, and, and I would tend to say that in the last 30 years a lot of awareness has come in. So there's been a lot of effort by the government everywhere on forest protection. Our forests are also in KP. Our forests are also community owned. 92% of our forests are community owned. So there's a lot of awareness that's come in from the communities by the state continuously conversing and of course hard, strict protection activity that's happening. And then the good thing is that at the same time as you're protecting your markhor and your ibex and your blue sheep, you're also. The snow leopard gets protected, you know, so that, that's an automatic sort of.

[Brittany]

Yeah. So tell me, how many, Marco, do you think you are now in Pakistan? At one point there were less than 300.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yes.

[Brittany]

What are we sitting at today?

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, so I can tell you about two places.

[Brittany]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

Which is one is where I am now, which is KP. We have account for 4,000 plus because we carry out how many mark or.

[Brittany]

Permits are given a year on those 4,000.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay. So the permits are divided into two categories. We just came up with A new category, the non exportables. For the last 30 odd years, since the 90s, Pakistan has been given 12 permits. Four go to Balochistan, four go to GB, four come to US in KP. But of course those 12 were given at a time when the numbers were very, very low.

[Brittany]

So four permits.

[Mike Axelrod]

So we get four permits, export out.

[Brittany]

Of a herd of 4,000. Or is 4,000 for everything?

[Mike Axelrod]

No, it's four. 4,000 is our herd.

[Brittany]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

In KP there's a similar, you know, herd of, I would tend to say, I don't recall the numbers now, but in GB I would tend to say probably more than 2000 also. And they get four permits. That's why when I was in GB we came up with the non exportable permits as well. So this year in KP if you do the count on 4,000, there's a formula that you apply and if you apply the formula, the actual number of permits should be way higher.

[Brittany]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Mike Axelrod]

Way higher.

[Brittany]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know, but aren't you worried about.

[Brittany]

If you do put, you know, you have four permits right now, if it became, let's just say 25 permit because right now each of these four are, you know, what did you say? 270, 230.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brittany]

Thousand, yeah. And if you had 25.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Brittany]

They wouldn't be too thin anymore.

[Mike Axelrod]

They wouldn't be anymore, yeah. That's why there's this debate going on. Should we keep it to where it is because everybody gets a chance.

[Brittany]

Correct.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know, because we revolve the permits and then in order to aid the process we came up with these 10 non exportables which have gone for 71, 61, 42, 542, 520 and 10. But the 20 antenna for another area, they're not chitral. So the chitral ones have still gone. Minimum 42, maximum 71 for the non exportables.

[Brittany]

Now yes, it's non exportable, but you can still shoot whatever you want, right?

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh sure. You just can't take the head out.

[Brittany]

You just can't take it out.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah. Otherwise the hunt is the same.

[Brittany]

But the head's the most useless part.

[Mike Axelrod]

You can have the meat but you can't take the head.

[Brittany]

Well that's the thing. I either heard it out of Pakistan, I think it was from Pakistan. Somebody was, it was an ibex and somebody was saying the locals were like, yeah, keep the head. That's the most, that's the like the least important part of this animal.

[Mike Axelrod]

For them.

[Brittany]

For them. Yeah, we're using Everything else, we don't use the head, we don't use the horns.

[Mike Axelrod]

True.

[Brittany]

It's going to go in the trash pile or the dog's going to chew on it.

[Mike Axelrod]

But, but that's what. We're going to take the head and put it up in the Natural History Museum.

[Brittany]

Oh, perfect.

[Mike Axelrod]

That comes to the government.

[Brittany]

The non exportable ones.

[Mike Axelrod]

The non exportable one.

[Brittany]

Nice.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So at the same time, you know, we're, we're promoting this whole idea, we're spreading it, we're promoting the idea of, of reintroduction. So we.

[Brittany]

So is KP the only people doing non exportables right now?

[Mike Axelrod]

Right now we're the only ones who are doing non exportables. Then this is the first year, this.

[Brittany]

Will be the first year. 20, 25, you will have non exportable marker for the very first time.

[Mike Axelrod]

For the very first time.

[Brittany]

And I think it's, it's important to note you mentioned the four exportables are really not dictated by Pakistan.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, they come from Switzerland. The Cities Good Management committee.

[Brittany]

The Swiss know everything about Marco Manusman.

[Mike Axelrod]

Right, yeah, well it's, it's a bit broader than that.

[Brittany]

You know, I'm being facetious.

[Mike Axelrod]

I know that, I know that, but I just want to like put it in perspective.

[Brittany]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know, we are, I believe sometime to the end, at the end of this year there's going to be the meeting in the Cyprus meeting. Yes. So we're going to, we're conversing for taking, you know, our permits higher.

[Brittany]

Higher.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, we're looking for, we have, we've asked, we've actually submitted our application for nine exportables from KP. From KP.

[Brittany]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And so if it's, if it becomes nine exportables and, and 10 non exportable, I think that's a fair number.

[Brittany]

Yep.

[Mike Axelrod]

Because my own experience tells me that yes, it's very important to have high prices, but it's also very, very important to spread the benefit. So a lot more areas should get it a lot more. A lot more hunting would mean a lot more benefits to the communities because all of our hunting trophy money, 80% of that goes to the communities, whether it's exportable or whether it's non exportable. So I think if we spread it, there's plenty of animals, it will have very, very positive effects on overall conservation. That's one secondly, because the benefits, people in that if we have more permits, people don't have to wait for the benefits. So even if it may, we don't know that yet. But even if the prices do come down, let's say from 271,000, it comes down to, let's say 200,000 or 150,000 in yesterday's has more been around 100 to 150,000, you know, this year and last. You know, this is really shot up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I really don't know the reasons for that, but it really shot up. Greater competition, probably. But if greater benefits are, if the benefits are spread more and people get, communities get their chances at greater regularity, I think the effect on conservation will be far more positive than selling one permit for two, you know, four permits for 250,000 plus it'll be a hundred thousand, let's say, plus for more communities, more conservation.

[Brittany]

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Brittany]

Now Shahid, one of the things that somebody will say that we hear a lot is that that $250,000 that just lined your pocket. Oh, it just lined the outfitters bungit. The community doesn't see any benefits. Is that what's happening in Pakistan?

[Mike Axelrod]

No, not at all, not at all. I think we have a singularly unique program. You know, if you compare it with other countries, let's say, for example, I don't want to name, but you know, whatever it is, you know, some of our neighboring countries where a similar kind of hunting happens, the prices that goes to the government are far less and the, and the profits, the legal profits, legitimate profits that go to those who conduct the hunts, I.e. the outfitters, et cetera. To my understanding, whatever my level of knowledge is about some of those countries is far higher. In our case, when we do $271,000, let's say, for example, 80% of that goes to the community. The communities are organized, they have committees, they have bank accounts and those bank accounts are joined between the government officer and the committee president.

[Brittany]

So it really takes, what I like about that model is it really takes the whole, like how much somebody's actually paying for the hunt out of the equation.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, absolutely.

[Brittany]

Because it's all tied to the tag.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, absolutely.

[Brittany]

So the tag, 250,000, 80% of it straight into the government, straight into the community.

[Mike Axelrod]

Community account. Absolutely, absolutely. We can, I mean anybody who has any doubts, they can come and look at our 30 year bank record, they can go and speak to the communities and the result is right there in front of us. I mean, look at where the animals, the numbers have gone in those difficult mountain areas. No matter how many game guards you put there, they will never be able to protect Them, you know, I'm talking about areas where, you know, the protection has, is continuously being done by the communities themselves. There's no need for game guards, but obviously we do have game guards, you know, so we have one odd or two odd in the area to support the communities, to ensure that, you know, nothing the community. Some of the not so positive elements within the communities also don't do anything illegal. So we have those. But the bulk of the activity of protection conservation is being done by the communities.

[Brittany]

So tell me if these communities are getting 80% of the money and, and I think it's an important point for people to understand, because I didn't understand it, I thought community A every year got 250,000. Let's assume the IBEX tag went for 250,000 every year. Community A, we get 280% of 250,000, so 220 every year. But what you said earlier was it, it moves, the tags move and revolve. So community A may get it this year, but they may not get nothing for the next year, the year after and then it comes back to them and then they get their tag.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yes, yes. See it depends on how many communities, community, we call them conservancies. So let's say, let's just use that terminology and just a small little correction over there. It's the Marcore permits that go in the hundreds of thousands. Correct? Correct. The ibex permits don't go that high.

[Brittany]

Correct.

[Mike Axelrod]

The ibex permits go for 8,000, 10,000. Some figure like that could be higher in certain areas. So what happens is it depends on how many community conservancies there are. So if you've got four permits and you've got four communities, let's say, I'm not saying there are four, but if, then they'll get one, will get it every year. Everyone will get one every year.

[Brittany]

Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

But if there's six, two will fall out or 12 or 12, you know, then they will get it on the third year, you know, that kind of thing. So in GB, for example, which is.

[Brittany]

Why when you said more exportable and non exportables, more communities will get more regular income on an annual basis.

[Mike Axelrod]

Absolutely, absolutely. I feel it's very, very important. And what happens is, which is when I first, when I was in GB and I took out the non exportables for 4 non exportables for GB, I actually took them out for a specific district which had never ever gotten Mr. Permit because what happened was that the greater concentration was on these particular six conservancies who would continuously get the permits. And this whole large region, you know, had, it's called the Amer, it's still called Day Amer and the Amer never got a permit. So what I did was I came because the numbers were not that high. So, so I came up with this solution of bringing in the non exportables for the Amar in gb, specifically for the Amar so that there could be cheaper hunts but the hunt would start and so the conservation cycle would begin. You know, that is the whole idea. Now this year what we've done is for the, with the, we've got six non exportables for KP now and we are giving the four of those non exportables are going into the buffer zones, buffer zones of the Chitral Goal National Park. Because the Chitral Goal national park has been in existence for the last 30, 35 years or more and it's been an unbelievable conservation story. I mean we have, you know, snow leopard has made a comeback, lynx has made a fantastic, Himalayan lynx has made a fantastic comeback, wolf has because there's a prey base.

[Brittany]

But then the markhor pray base, 300 to 4,000.

[Mike Axelrod]

Absolutely. So the nursery is Chitral Gol. It's from there that everything started spreading. We now even have Markhor in another district called Deer. We have in Swat in an area called Kalam. And it's all coming out of the, you know, the profusion, you know, that's the outspill from Chitral Gold National Park. But Chitral Gold never got a permit. The community of Chitral Gold never got a permit. So this year out of the six non exportables, four are going to the, to the Chitral Gold community buffer zone areas, you know, so it's very important, you know, it doesn't, the price tag is important but also you have to balance it out with this whole idea of spreading the conservation.

[Brittany]

That's amazing. And do you have examples of like what are the communities using the money for?

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, so one of the most successful examples, I mean there are many, but one of the most successful examples is one of the communities in GB who have largely been spending it on education and especially the education of their girls, their children, the girl child, so to say they have, with the kind of money that they get, they have bought and created hostels for their girls down in, in the capital, Islamabad, Rawalpindi. And the girls stay there, a very safe environment. They go to school there. Then they do other things like they do basic community work. You know, if somebody, if there's a mosque in the area, it needs some repair. If there's a school in the area, they need some repair. Somebody needs to get, you know, married. They're not well off enough, you know, they can use that money for that also. So the money is administered carefully by the community committee. And what we did was we introduced this whole concept of joint accounts in gv which exists in kp, alongside an audit system so that we continuously keep on finding out what they're doing with that money, which I'm sure they're using it to the right effect because it's overseen by a community committee. So it's being put to good use and conservation work as well. There's a certain amount they have to put into conservation work as well, which is local jobs. That's a big part of it. For example, in this new endeavor we've started for the Suleiman Marhor down in South KP in the Suleiman range, basically speaking, we have declared the area conservancy, it's called Koh Suleiman. Ko means mountain. So Ko Suleiman Conservancy. And we've got a herd of about 32 Mar Khor over there. We're now going to go for the assessment account once again.

[Brittany]

And where will those come from? Those come from those private reserves.

[Mike Axelrod]

Local. No, they were there in the area. They were there in the area but obviously over the years they got shot out.

[Brittany]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

And there's a remote location, you know, where this herd exists now. And we've employed 32 people from the community. So we have 32 game guards local who are looking after the herd. And we're looking forward to a situation maybe next year. I was hoping it would be this year, but couldn't do it. We could have a hunt over there, the first non exportable and then we'll move to the exportable. Okay, yeah, yeah.

[Brittany]

Are there any, do you see? Are you facing any. Obviously India is your next door neighbor has banned hunting since 1977.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Brittany]

How much of that like rhetoric is pervading into Pakistan? Do you have a strong community of people that just go, no, we shouldn't be hunting in Pakistan at all?

[Mike Axelrod]

No, we don't. No, we don't. We. Interestingly speaking, I don't know the history of how India came to this conclusion that they should ban all hunting. But we don't have that kind of a message going around amongst our people. That's one. And thankfully, because in our case, I mean there's been in every province in Pakistan, there's been a resurgence of wildlife back to even to numbers way beyond what may have historically even existed. And the tool has been trophy hunting, you know, that has been the singular tool. So I'm a great proponent, as I said that even as I've put my gun down now and I maybe go, you know, this season I went one part to shooting one time.

[Brittany]

Sure, sure.

[Mike Axelrod]

Otherwise in yesterday's I used to go every weekend, which is the legal day. But even as I've put my gun down, I am still a, a great proponent of using trophy hunting as the best tool of conservation. Now it has worked.

[Brittany]

Your counterparts, the other secretaries of the other provinces, do they feel the same way or the others that have different mindsets, that is do those sacred. I guess what I'm asking is how pervasive is your thought process at that level and at the, at the federal level? Like the Prime Minister of Pakistan. Is it a Prime minister?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yes, we have a Prime Minister.

[Brittany]

Is he anti hunting, is pro hunting, is he? I don't want to talk about it because it's too politically, you know.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, I think, I think our Prime Minister, our current Prime Minister, he is. He, he. I don't think, I don't know about him being ever being, having been a hunter. So I don't, I don't see him necessarily as someone who was probably raised in, you know, an urban environment. But his brother, who was also our prime minister earlier, his younger brother, he's very, very pro nature. He, to my knowledge, I believe he may have hunted at some point in his life also. But he's, he's very, he's a very avid conservationist. The Prime Minister's elder brother and then our former Prime Minister, Mr. Imran Khan, he has been a hunter himself.

[Brittany]

He was a great cricketer.

[Mike Axelrod]

And a great cricketer also. Yes. And he was, he used to hunt and he's a great conservationist. So he came up with this whole program, this, the 10 billion tree tsunami program, which we now call the Green Pakistan program, which is a great forestry and wildlife conservation program. Injected huge amounts of money into it, then came up with this Prime Minister's protected areas initiative and once again injected a lot of money into eco tourism activities as a second tool of conservation.

[Brittany]

Yeah, great tool that works in harmony with hunting.

[Mike Axelrod]

Exactly, exactly. And then we had our famous one time famous president, you know, Field Marshall Ayub back in the 60s. He was the person who started the whole conservation and brought Dr. Shaler and famous people like that for research and he started this whole conservation because way back in the 60s he could see, you know, that wildlife was now diminishing, diminishing. So the whole spree for national parks started in his time. And then when Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, the famous Benazir Bhutto's father, when he was Prime Minister, some of our famous national parks came into existence, but the work had started in Field Marshall's time.

[Brittany]

Are you seeing, you know, I see it all over the world. I'm interested to get your take. Are you seeing pressure on habitat and wild places in Pakistan with your people growing population, growing?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. But if I may answer your first question regarding, or do all the other secretaries think. Well, I think the whole success story of the trophy hunting program in all provinces has been so unbelievably fantastic that even if somebody's generally the secretaries, necessarily they're civil servants, they're not necessarily technocrats even, because we have a dual system. We have the civil servant heading, but then we have these, the departments all have these technocrats. So the forestry department has forestry technocrats, Wildlife department has wildlife technocrats. Technocrats. I mean the experts in their field, they go through that particular specific education.

[Brittany]

You know, they've got a doctorate in forestry or something like that.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, it's something like that. A master's, an mphil, a doctorate in forestry in wildlife or something like that. So like for example, my chief conservator, our chief conservator in kp, he's a, he's got a doctorate from Germany in, in some form of wildlife conservation, you know, that kind of thing. So you have, so as a civil servant, you're the policy guide and the policy feedback person, but you have these technocrats feeding you. So most of the secretaries, even though they may not necessarily be nature persons or not, but the success story is so fantastic that everybody's moving ahead with it. There's, there's no rolling back on it, none whatsoever. So that's, that's one point as far.

[Brittany]

As, and it doesn't sound like there's pressure from groups on someone like you or the other secretaries to say, hey, hey, hey, hey.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, there isn't. No, there isn't. I mean, if you go to sometimes as I, as I just mentioned, as I was sharing that, sometimes what happens is that, you know, obviously there are people of all kinds of thinking and we have support, you know, the non governmental groups and some do, some do feel, you know, they have these not so pro hunting views. So yes, they do. They can come into the fray, as it happened with us, when we asked for 10 permits and one of these non governmental groups, they said, oh, you know, there is some questions about it, but we had the data. So the federal government supported us rather than them. And we came to a compromise with the non exportables. So there are these fringe group, you know, sort of not fringe groups, but a very minority opinion. The major opinion is yes, let's go ahead with this great tool. It's been a great success story in the last 30 to 40 years. The success is right in front of everyone. You've got ibex on the roads.

[Brittany]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know, so let's carry on with it, you know, and, and it's, it's actually also a very inexpensive model that brings in fantastic returns because you don't have to put a game guard everywhere to protect your wildlife.

[Brittany]

Sure.

[Mike Axelrod]

The people do it themselves, the communities.

[Brittany]

Do it because they see the value.

[Mike Axelrod]

Absolutely. And, and the returns go to the communities too. But, but then comes in the next question which is very, very relevant. See, we are the fifth largest population wise country in the world.

[Brittany]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And 250 million people. And most of that population is concentrated, you know, along the Indus river basin. I mean we've got one province which is Balochistan, which is 40% plus of the land area. Land area.

[Brittany]

How many people?

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, I would tend to think maybe not even 10 million, you know, maybe even less than that. I don't know the latest central figure. But it's just an empty, vast, empty land is a desert, largely sort of desert, not, not necessarily a sand desert, but clay deserts and mountains and so on and so forth. So small populations, vast areas that you drive through and you just don't see any people. But then you come to Punjab, you know, there's agriculture everywhere. So most of those agricultural areas have lost most of their wildlife.

[Brittany]

True.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know, similar in kp, in the agricultural areas, like now we're going for hog deer reintroduction and we're actually targeting islands in the river because when you come to the mainland, you know, so.

[Brittany]

There'S not much habitat left.

[Mike Axelrod]

There's not much habitat left, you know, and so yes, there's, there's a great amount of pressure. But then we have a lot of forest in KP. 27% of our land area is, is forest, which is a fantastic, you know, sort of figure.

[Brittany]

What is, do you know what the number is for Pakistan writ large in terms of protected areas?

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh yeah.

[Brittany]

What do you think?

[Mike Axelrod]

Sort of.

[Brittany]

Is it over 30%?

[Mike Axelrod]

I wouldn't think it's over. Okay. I don't recall right now, but we have signed those protocols to raise it above 15 to percent and 25%. And certain areas like GB.

[Brittany]

Well, you just said your area is over 30% already forest land.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yes. 27% forest land.

[Brittany]

Yeah. Well, that's protected land. That's average.

[Mike Axelrod]

It is, absolutely. Yeah. So 20% of our land area is forest. And then within those forests, we have wildlife protected areas designated. And outside of those, also, we have designated protected areas. Like, for example, we have these alpine meadow areas, you know, which we have declared. There are no forests there, but they have been declared as far as protected areas as national parks or biosphere reserves and so on and so forth.

[Brittany]

Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

So we are going more and more, you know, continuously increasing our protected area status. You know, GB. If you take GB and you put national parks and conservancies together, over 70% of the area becomes protected area in one form or another.

[Brittany]

Wow.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know, that's. That's an amazing number. I don't think any country can. Can match that figure, you know, that's amazing.

[Brittany]

Yeah. I think a lot of people. That's why I like doing these podcasts and I like talking to folks like yourself because, number one, I don't think a lot of people get access to people like you. And I appreciate the opportunity and you saying yes, of course to me. But I also think people just don't. They have no idea. Like, I have no idea.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know.

[Brittany]

Yeah. I've got a little sense because of the line of work that I do, but I don't think people, they hear of Pakistan and they hear two things.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Brittany]

You know, or terrorists.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Brittany]

And, you know, bad people. And, oh, I'll never go there because it's super, super dangerous.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, Yeah. I mean, this is exactly what happened. I was walking around the convention yesterday, and I met a lady who's hunted everywhere in the world, and the first. And she really wants to come to Pakistan. And the first thing she asked was, would it be safe for me as a woman. And then we had to show her photos of women, you know, foreign women, having come in for hunting. I mean, my own sister and I, you know, we used to hunt together. So, you know, I think most people, what they don't know in the news really. Don't put it this way, pitch it this way. See, we've been. We've been in a very, very sort of. How to say it, the neighborhood has been tough. And not to forget, for 40 years, we've had wars going around. Sure, sure. The Russian Afghan war, in which we played a great part. The US and US played a great part together. Then this again, the 2001 US invasion of Afghanistan, again, we got embroiled in it. So a lot of the things, not, not to get into the politics of it, but a lot of the things that have developed in our region have not necessarily been of our own doing. You know, they have been part of geopolitics or global politics that have just come up and then you obviously get sucked into it. And then of course there are, and then there are results that come out, you know, which affect us and, and our economy and our image and. But we, I think we, we get a lot of negative projection which needs to be sort of set aside. And with talks like this.

[Brittany]

Yeah, 100%.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. I mean, who would know that we have a fantastic. Well, hunters know, globally, hunters know that Pakistan has a fantastic hunting scenario, but the larger population across the world, you know, obviously, you know, they may think of Tajikistan or India as far more attractive than Pakistan.

[Brittany]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know, but I think Pakistan is very attractive. Very attractive.

[Brittany]

So don't overlook Pakistan.

[Mike Axelrod]

Don't overlook Pakistan. Yeah. We have a great hunting scene. And obviously if there's a great hunting scene, I mean, if I tell you a figure, in KP alone, we have 135 partridge reserves.

[Brittany]

Wow.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know, and there's a very active local partridge hunting scene going on.

[Brittany]

Locals.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, all Pakistanis, you know, who go out for weekend partridge hunting.

[Brittany]

Amazing.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. You know, and they're.

[Brittany]

There's a hunting culture.

[Mike Axelrod]

There's. Yes, yes, absolutely. There's a hunting culture from the north.

[Brittany]

To the south, everywhere and still embedded. It's not like local. As we said before, locals aren't pushed to the side. And here rich white American come in and hunt.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, no, no, no. The locals hunt too. I mean, this time when we came out with the. If I may give you the example of both GB and KP, and I learned this from GB. In KP, we came up with the ibex permits. We sold 26 Himalayan ibex permits, all bought by Pakistanis and locals of those of that district. And we keep special prices for the locals of the district, which is about, you know, almost 40, 50% below the Pakistani prices.

[Brittany]

Yep.

[Mike Axelrod]

GB has the same, same, you know, methodology. So we copied that for KP so that the locals get a chance to hunt. Nobody gets sidestepped, you know, or sidelined.

[Brittany]

Amazing.

[Mike Axelrod]

Everybody should get a chance. I mean, and, and since hunting is the successful tool, so if you give chance to the locals and, and to the Pakistanis not just foreigners.

[Brittany]

Yep.

[Mike Axelrod]

The locals. And the Pakistanis will perforce, poach will go into poaching because they're hunters, you know, these are not.

[Brittany]

They want to hunt.

[Mike Axelrod]

They want to hunt.

[Brittany]

And if there's no opportunity for them to hunt, what are you going to do? I'll just go poach.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, they're going to do it and I know that they do it. And everybody told me when we came up with the ibex permits, everybody said, oh, these are not going to sell. People are not going to come. And we had 40 permits and 26 got sold on the first day to locals. Yeah, Pakistanis and locals.

[Brittany]

So there's a local price, a Pakistani.

[Mike Axelrod]

Price and then the foreign price. Oh, yeah. So we keep three categories. Yeah. So the locals must be involved because if they're not involved, you know, your conservation strategy is not going to 100% fruition.

[Brittany]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Shahid, thank you.

[Mike Axelrod]

Thank you.

[Brittany]

I really appreciate your time and thank you. I know it's a busy, busy convention and there's lots of things happening as everyone can hear behind us.

[Mike Axelrod]

Thank you.

[Brittany]

But no, I hope this isn't the last time we talk and see each other and maybe certainly in the future.

[Mike Axelrod]

We see you in Pakistan.

[Brittany]

I'll come to Pakistan, absolutely. As long as it's safe.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's very safe. Thank you. Pleasure.

[Brittany]

Well, that's it for today.

[Shahid Zaman]

I appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.

[Braxton]

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[Fishing Booker]

Save from dawn to dusk and every moment in between. Captain Justin Leake and Meredith McCord have an exciting adventure waiting in the water. Catch chase in the Sun. Sundays at 10am Eastern on Waypoint TV. Waypoint TV, your destination for outdoor entertainment.