Episode 560 - Robert Borsak || Hunting In The Australian Government

Summary

Podcast Summary: Blood Origins - Episode 560: Robert Borsak || Hunting In The Australian Government

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Overview

In Episode 560 of the Blood Origins podcast, host Mike Axelrod welcomes Robert Borsak, a prominent figure in Australian politics and leader of the Shooters, Fishers, and Farmers (SFF) Party in New South Wales (NSW). The episode delves deep into the challenges and intricacies of hunting within the Australian governmental framework, exploring how hunting serves as a vital tool for wildlife management and conservation.

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Introduction to Robert Borsak

Robert Borsak reappears on the Blood Origins podcast, bringing valuable insights from his role in the NSW government. As the leader of the SFF Party, Borsak represents the interests of rural communities, advocating for the rights of shooters, fishers, farmers, and hunters. His participation underscores the podcast's mission to shed light on the realities of hunting beyond prevalent misconceptions.

Notable Quote:

"There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be... a feminist that works for a non-profit that is a hunter... is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter."
— 02:47, Robert Borsak

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Challenges Facing Hunting in New South Wales

Borsak outlines the political landscape in NSW, highlighting a significant push from opposing factions aiming to restrict firearms and recreational hunting. Over the past 14 years, there has been a concerted effort, particularly by the Labor government, to curb hunting and fishing activities. Key issues include:

• Legislative Restrictions: Attempts to ban or heavily regulate firearms and hunting practices.
• Invasive Species Management: Debates surrounding the management of non-native species like deer and horses, which have significant ecological and agricultural impacts.

Notable Quote:

"If our party hadn't been in the parliament, we would have lost virtually all of our hunting. We would have lost all our firearms, we would have lost all our recreational fishing years ago."
— 08:24, Robert Borsak

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Invasive Wildlife and Conservation

A substantial portion of the discussion centers on managing invasive species, particularly horses in Kosciuszko National Park. Borsak criticizes the current government approach, which he argues is ineffective and detrimental to both the environment and hunting communities.

• Kosciuszko National Park: An estimated 18,000 to 26,000 horses have inhabited the park, causing ecological damage. Previous efforts to cull the population were hampered by legislative bans and public outcry, leading to a temporary halt in management activities.

Notable Quote:

"What we're saying is there is a solution... it's just a matter of having the political ability to get represented."
— 25:27, Robert Borsak

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Proposed Solutions for Effective Wildlife Management

Borsak proposes an integrated approach wherein licensed hunters play a pivotal role in managing invasive species. Key elements of his proposed solution include:

• Grassroots Hunting Programs: Encouraging hunters to obtain permissions on private lands to control wildlife populations effectively.
• Use of Technology: Leveraging thermal gear and modern hunting equipment to increase efficiency and reduce waste.
• Policy Amendments: Advocating for legislative changes to legalize suppressors (silencers) for hunting purposes, enhancing hunters' capabilities.

Notable Quote:

"If you get a license and you become a conservation hunter, then what you should be able to do is use that as an application to... issue you with a suppressor."
— 29:20, Robert Borsak

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Political Dynamics and Future Outlook

The conversation delves into the broader political dynamics affecting hunting and conservation in NSW. Borsak discusses the challenges posed by minor parties and independent members who often shift allegiances, impacting the stability and effectiveness of conservation policies.

• Minority Government Challenges: The current Labor government operates as a minority in both the lower and upper houses, relying on informal coalitions and independent support, which complicates legislative processes.
• Future Initiatives: Borsak remains optimistic about potential policy wins, such as introducing bounties for invasive species and expanding public land hunting opportunities.

Notable Quote:

"We've been fighting every step of the way... but the reality is the numbers are always against us, always against us."
— 38:57, Robert Borsak

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Economic Impact of Hunting and Fishing

Highlighting the economic significance, Borsak emphasizes that recreational hunting and fishing contribute substantially to the Australian economy, rivaling major sectors like agriculture.

• Economic Contribution: Combined, hunting and fishing generate approximately AUD 505 million annually, injecting significant capital into rural communities.
• Conservation Funding: Revenues from hunting activities are reinvested into conservation projects, ensuring sustainable wildlife management.

Notable Quote:

"When you combine recreational fishing and hunting... they're the biggest, maybe just a slightly behind the full count of agriculture."
— 44:37, Robert Borsak

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Closing Remarks and Future Prospects

In conclusion, Borsak reiterates the necessity of political representation for hunting communities to safeguard their rights and promote effective conservation strategies. He remains committed to expanding hunting opportunities and influencing policy to support sustainable wildlife management.

Notable Quote:

"Unless you're represented politically and you've got a voice and you can make a difference, you will lose it all."
— 45:55, Robert Borsak

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Conclusion

Episode 560 of Blood Origins offers a comprehensive exploration of the intersection between hunting and government policy in New South Wales, Australia. Through Robert Borsak's insights, listeners gain an understanding of the political challenges, proposed solutions, and the vital role hunting plays in conservation. The episode underscores the importance of advocacy and representation in ensuring that hunting remains a sustainable and economically beneficial practice.

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Key Takeaways

• Hunting as Conservation: Effective wildlife management relies heavily on active hunting practices, especially for invasive species.
• Political Advocacy: Representation in government is crucial for maintaining and advancing hunting rights and conservation efforts.
• Economic Significance: Hunting and fishing contribute significantly to the economy and support rural communities.
• Policy Reforms: Legislative changes, such as the legalization of suppressors, can enhance hunting efficiency and conservation outcomes.

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For those interested in the future of hunting and conservation in Australia, Episode 560 provides invaluable perspectives from one of the leading voices advocating for sustainable practices and policy reform.

Transcript

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[Midway USA]

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[Mike Axelrod]

Robert Borsak is a repeat guest on Blood Origins Podcast. Robert Borsak, honorable Robert Borsak is a member of the Upper House of the New South Wales government in Australia. He is the leader of the Shooter, Fisher and Farmers party, the SFF party, and as the name suggests, they defend shooting and hunting and fishing and farming and agriculture and rural voices essentially. And so I wanted to have him on and really just have a discussion and give you guys a little bit of an insight on the challenges of hunting in New South Wales, in Australia, some of the narratives and rhetorics that are coming out of this government in New South Wales and as you'll hear, the very same synonymous with other narratives that you're hearing all around the world, in America, in Europe, in which there is a place for hunting, there is a place for hunting to manage wildlife, and specifically in Australia, invasive wildlife that everybody wants managed. So why not let hunters as a tool, hunting as a tool, help with the management. Enjoy. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting.

[Brittany]

It brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals. How do I start it?

[Braxton]

Brittany?

[Mike Axelrod]

My name.

[Brittany]

Does my hair look okay?

[Mike Axelrod]

My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when a comes to a hunter.

[Brittany]

Look, I'll take the. I'll take the lolly out. There you go.

[Mike Axelrod]

What a way to start a podcast. I'll take the lolly out of my mouth. Better than honorable Robert Borsac back on the Blood Origins podcast. Return guest. The last time you were in this podcast here, this is how my. This is how good of a brain I have. We had literally just sold. We were moving our house from Bay St. Louis coming up to Memphis. The entire house was empty except for a bed in the guest room. And I was lying on the bed in the guest room. I didn't have the headset. I didn't have the microphone. All I had was my laptop and my laptop microphone and that's when we podcasted for the first time.

[Brittany]

Oh, you treated me so badly. You didn't have the professional setup, what's going on.

[Mike Axelrod]

But I did record a podcast with you in bed with you, so.

[Brittany]

Oh, can I go upstairs?

[Mike Axelrod]

Welcome back. Robert Borsak. How are you, my man?

[Brittany]

Thank you. Yeah, no, I'm really quite good. Just chatting earlier. I've been to Mexico for a hunt and also while I was there, I went out to West Texas and shot at our dad just down there.

[Mike Axelrod]

Nice.

[Brittany]

Yeah, yeah, it was nice hunt. I was there for three days. Yeah. Didn't see a lot of our dad, but that what I saw was good and I shot a nice ram.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, excellent. Yeah, it's a poor man sheep hunt and it is certainly, you know, one. It's one of the pieces of content that we've created connecting the dots in West Texas. And it's, it's the animal that is driving, you know, it's the cherry on top, really on top of people's cattle farming operations that sometime is the thing that keeps them alive for that year and the other years. It's the cherry on top of the sundae.

[Brittany]

Yeah, yeah, it's. They're there and I don't know that you know how many would be on this ranch. I was on a 400,000 acre ranch apparently.

[Mike Axelrod]

And yeah, it's, it's a monster ranches out there. Just.

[Brittany]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

120 sections, 200 section ranches. It's crazy.

[Brittany]

Yep.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, Robert, if for those that don't know who you are, you want to introduce Yourself?

[Brittany]

I introduce myself. I don't like talking about myself very much.

[Mike Axelrod]

What do you do, what do you.

[Brittany]

Do as a Dan these days? Look, I'm an old CPA as an accountant, but I retired back in 2002. But these days, certainly since 2010, I've been in the New South Wales Parliament in the upper house, and as a member of the Shooters, Fishers and Farmers Party. And as the name implies, we advocate for shooting, hunting, fishing, farming and usually all of the things that happen in rural and regional New South Wales. We also get inv.

[Mike Axelrod]

You're the party leader in New South Wales, right?

[Brittany]

Yeah, yeah. We've got, there's two of us in the upper house. We've had members in the lower house, but they've decided to go their own way over time and that's, you know, good on them for doing it. But in the end of the day, the place to be if you want to protect the rights of shooting and hunting. And keep in mind that in Australia, and especially in New South Wales, there's a very great push to try to remove firearms out of people's legal hands and also to try to stop hunting and to stop fishing, recreational fishing. And we've seen all of that happen in the last, I suppose, 14 years. The previous government especially got very, very, very touchy about, they got touchy about.

[Mike Axelrod]

Like, blue grouper, didn't they, or something like that.

[Brittany]

That's the latest one. Yeah, that's right. The, the blue grouper is a fish that, you know, the greenies and the antis can use as an icon and it's not been legal to spearfish them for many years, and most spearfishers don't touch them anyway. But what happened was we had a kiwi turn up and kill one with a spear gun. It got in the papers, you know, the same old nonsense. And all of a sudden.

[Mike Axelrod]

So the same nonsense as this lady who picked up the baby wombat. You saw that nonsense?

[Brittany]

Yeah, I, I, I didn't actually see it, but I heard about it. I mean, really, you know, they make a song and dance out of it, but in the end of the day, the wombat went back to mum and mum and the wombat ran back into the bush.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, look, I, I'm not, you know, people online are saying, look, Steve Irwin did it as a job, essentially. I just, I took offense to it because it was this hunting influencer from the States and then there was, oh, okay. It was a hunting influence from father States and then some veterinarian from, I think it's wires. I'll have to remember the name starts with the D. Anyway, said this is what we expect from hunters. That was the quote. This is what we expect from hunters disrespecting wildlife.

[Brittany]

Oh, okay. I didn't hear that part. Okay, well, you know, I mean, what else do you expect? And that's, and that is the sort of thing that we have to put up with here every single day. And there's absolutely no doubt in my mind. And it's not just me, but if our party hadn't been in the parliament, we would have lost virtually all of our hunting. We would have lost all our firearms, we would have lost all our recreational fishing years ago. And I might just mention that this year, this, this month in fact is our 30th anniversary of being represented in the New South Wales upper house.

[Mike Axelrod]

Wow.

[Brittany]

30 long years. Yeah. That we've been fighting for the rights of shooters, fishers, hunters and a lot of other people too in, in related areas in the rural and regional New South Wales. Which account?

[Mike Axelrod]

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[Brittany]

Excuse me. At every, every election, we certainly state elections, obviously we contest the upper house and we do contest lower house seats as well. There's I think there's 92 or 93 seats in the lower house and at the last election I think we contested about 25 of those. Wow. And again, those seats we contest are usually rural and regional areas. There's no point, for example, running a candidate in the middle of Sydney. It's all too, it's all too woken, it's all too lefty. And you can pretty much our vote starts at zero in the middle of Sydney and goes out as you go out west. As you radiate around the state that the vote and get away from Sydney or Or the coast. We get a better vote, of course.

[Mike Axelrod]

So none of the 25 won a seat?

[Brittany]

No, no, not, not the last election, but 2019, we actually won three seats. And that's what happened at that stage. We won orange, we won Murray and we won Barwon those three seats. And then those three members went mad and decided to go independent. So they decided they didn't want to represent Shooters and Fishers anymore. They were too self important. You know, the age of social media gives them an opportunity to promote themselves. So they use the party's money, they use the party's blood to get themselves elected and then just say goodbye. But anyway, that happens.

[Mike Axelrod]

Do they still toe a rhetoric line that is very similar to sff?

[Brittany]

They still profess to support shooting and all that sort of thing. And I, I believe they will. I don't, I don't have an issue with it. But all parties see this. No matter whether you're a small party or a large party, there's always a big turnover. There are always. People are coming and going. It happens. I don't think it happens so much in American politics, but it certainly happens a lot in Australia. Australian politics.

[Mike Axelrod]

Robert, for everybody's understanding, edification, explain. So you are the Shooters, Fishers and Farmers party, obviously by the name. You certainly, obviously have conservative values in Australian politics. Give us the two major parties and where are their policy lines?

[Brittany]

Well, I suppose it depends on where you sit. Sorry, what sort of policies you're talking about. If you're talking about economic policies, the Labor Party especially.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, conservation policies like wild. Let's just talk about typical wildlife conservation policies.

[Brittany]

Look, conservation policies in Australia really center around obviously seeking to conserve the native environment and the native animals and the unique marsupials, for example, we have in Australia. And both parties would profess to support that. I think they'd be pretty bipartisan on all.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's the National Party and the Labour Party.

[Brittany]

Well, the National Party and the Liberal Party form a coalition and they are laughingly referred to as Conservatives. And the Labour Party of course are on the left. They're, they're, they're the Labor Party. So they're I suppose your socialist type people, but they're, they're very much in competition with the extreme left, which is the Greens, of course, and the, we have a number of Green members in the, in the New South Wales Parliament we have four in the upper house and we have, I think about 4 or 5 in the lower house. So that's where they sit on in that spectrum. And anything that's not native. It's, it's just to be treated as a pest. It's just to be treated as rubbish. And it's just gotta be got rid of. Doesn't matter whether we poison it, we shoot it, you know, anything they can think of. If, if, if it hadn't been a wombat, but if it been a rabbit or something like that, you would not have had any coverage on the, on social media at all. Because it's a pest. So therefore it's a lesser being, you know, and that's the way they treat it, that's the way they do it. And so you've got, the two major parties have basically got a bipartisan approach to conservation of native species. And you see that for example, with what's been going on in Kosciuszko national park and the culling of the brumbies down there.

[Mike Axelrod]

So that's the most amazing thing. So we're starting to, we're about one left the cat off the bat. We're starting to get involved in, I'll say wild horse work in the States. People will correct me and say, you mean feral horse work in the States. And the example that I told this lady who had been working in horse management with the BLM, the Bureau of Land Management for 30 years, I said, you know, it's funny that here in the States it's illegal to kill a horse. Illegal at the federal level. I said, do you realize that probably the most sort of left leaning country in the world, I. E. Australia that has the most left leaning individuals, Greenies involved in politics, the greenies are saying, shoot the horses. I was like, right.

[Brittany]

It just shows how politics can change, doesn't it? Horses here, especially in the park, are very much being protected by people who see them as a cultural icon and what has failed, and that's really the niche that we're trying to, we will work into, is that there's been no real management, no real management of those horse populations in that park since they got rid of the high country grazing about 40 years ago. And I don't think they were obviously culling them at that, at that stage. But what used to happen was that I've had it explained to me by a farmer who used, who was brought up in that high country that they used to have regular brumby roundups, okay, and, and that all finished when everyone got kicked out of the park. And you're all, you're all Satan, go away. We're going to protect this park. And of course, what, what's protection Leads to a population, I think last year when they did, or year before last, they estimate the population between 18 and 26,000 horses in the park. And that is a delicate environment up there. It's not, you know, it's not dry land. It's. It's the. The highest snow, you know, snow plains that you can get in Australia. Kostuska, Mount Kociusko is the highest peak in the country. It is, it is a very, very delicate area. You know, obviously, like anywhere, any. Any environment like that, growing seasons are very short. Horses with big hooves can cause a lot of damage.

[Mike Axelrod]

Is the government culling horses?

[Brittany]

Yes, basically. The. I think it. I think what happened was that if you go back to the previous labor government, um, so you're going back about 15 or 16 years, maybe a bit longer. They were culling horses in another national park. And what happened was that they had cameras on the skids and cameras on the. On the rifles. And some of that video got out because they're trying to kill horses with.308s, would you believe? And what happened, of course, that caused a huge uproar. Arspca, the Royal Society for Protection of Animals, whatever you call it, they said they were going to prosecute the minister. So the cut to the chase, what happened was they put a blanket ban on the culling of horses. That was for the whole state. So what happened, of course, is that the only form of management that was really available then in Kosciuszko was the live capture. And of course, you try to manage those horse numbers, trying to capture, you know, a wild stallion or a large heavy mare. It's nonsense. It doesn't work. They were not allowed to ground shoot and they were not allowed to helicopter shoot. That was it being finished. So for best part of 15, 16 years, with good seasons on and off, but the population just keeps growing. And you know yourself, once population numbers reach a certain level, they boom. And that's what was happening in the park. And this government, which is a Labor government, took the decision, I think, basically two years ago that they weren't going to put up with this. It was causing material damage to the park. I had representations in my office. We, as a party support the culling, but we don't support helicopter shooting. Our attitude is, well, you should have been doing this properly first. And I must admit, they. They did, did start and were doing a lot of ground shooting. But then they said to me, it's not. We're not killing him fast enough. That's really what the answer was. So that's why they got in last year and they, they culled about 8 or 9,000.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's amazing. That's amazing.

[Brittany]

And because we had an inquiry, there's a animal welfare committee that I sit on and we had an inquiry into the brumby shooting. And I won't bore you with all the detail of that now, but it's online if anyone wants to go and have a look at it. And the, the statutory limit that was placed on the number of horses in certain parts of the park is 3,000 now. And that's what they're working to. So they're not going to shoot them all out and get. And, you know, make them extinct. Although the Greens want every single one shot. That's, that's, that's their every single one.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know, that completely blows my mind. It completely blows my mind.

[Brittany]

Yeah. Well. And, and this shows you.

[Mike Axelrod]

I should. Can, can you introduce me to a greenie that would come on here and talk to me about horses?

[Brittany]

Exactly the right one. I've got exactly the one for you to talk to. I will introduce to her and she, you know, she knows everything and she'll tell you a bit. She'll tell you she knows everything. You know, we're, we're all, we're all stupid and, you know, the reality is that we, we, we're the real conservationists. We just don't talk about it. We actually get out and do it and we're, well, getting it.

[Mike Axelrod]

Talking about getting out and doing it. What's. What's. What preempted this podcast between you and I, which is long, long overdue, by the way, is Ned McKim and the Australian Pig Doggers and Hunters association doing the great Australian Pig Hunt. What do the greenies say about that? Have they, have you heard any whispers about that?

[Brittany]

Oh, they hated anything. Yes, I have. They don't like it.

[Mike Axelrod]

How can they hate that? Because it's a feral species. They can't.

[Brittany]

That's right. But, but the fact that hunters are doing it, they don't want you to enjoy it. See, you're not allowed to enjoy it. You're not allowed to practice our culture of going out hunting. And the fact that there's a benefit in doing it, well, that'll have to be sacrificed, because it's more important for us to get rid of your culture than to worry about what the pig damage is. Because they don't like farmers, they don't like pigs, they don't like shooters, they don't like hunters, they don't like fishos. They don't like anybody that doesn't live in, in and around, you know, Newtown and places like that in Sydney, in the inner city. It's, it's.

[Mike Axelrod]

But they do like native biodiversity, they do like ecosystem health. They do like all these things that are an outcome of the activity.

[Brittany]

And it's the failed. And the, the horse example in Kosciuszko is a perfect example of the failed management paradigms that Australia functions under because the bureaucrats paper over the details and don't allow government to understand that it's more than just flying around in a helicopter and shooting a bunch of animals, doing a hotspot, you know, or shooting a bunch of deer, as I've been also doing in New South Wales, because deer numbers in some places have been far too high and property owners have been prepared to allow them onto the properties to cull their numbers down. They're not prepared to accept any of that. So one of the things that we're trying to push forward is to say, well, look there you've got 260,000 licensed shooters, mostly hunters in New South Wales, probably 230,000 of them might be in some way be willing to participate in a program that was integrated for the first time at the grassroots level into a conservation hunting concept across the state. And I'm now talking about the deer numbers, especially on the coast north and south of Sydney and also west of Sydney in the national parks are becoming now a real, real problem. And they have no tool in the toolbox. You can't fly a helicopter over a peri. Urban environment. Shooting deer on a hundred acre block with two or three houses around it, it's just not going to work. So what happens, of course, is that these animals, you know, sort of just multiply and multiply and multiply and cars hit them and all those sort of things go on. The government hasn't got a solution for it. Well, what we're saying.

[Mike Axelrod]

So what is the solution from your perspective, Robert? And these hundred acre blocks?

[Brittany]

What we're saying is there is a solution. I mean, I just did an experiment myself last year. I got onto, I got permission on a block up the coast where, where rooster deer. Now rooster deer have been there for probably 20 years or 30 years. But the reality is now the numbers are really starting to grow because nobody is killing them. And they, through my cousin who lives up there, I got access onto a block with one house on it. They're all the same size around that, around that area, about 120 acre block. And I went and Saw the owner and he said, yeah, Robert, just come in and come and go as you please. See what you could do with these deer? Well, the experiment is what do I need to do in that environment to get the numbers down. He can't grow anything on his place. I mean, not that he's. It's a. It's a lifestyle block. All he does is cut. Cut the grass. But if he wants to grow anything, the deer just eat everything. So he said, come and do it. So last February, I started the process. Now, the deer there, as soon as you turn up in daylight with a gun, they know what you are. There's no question of it. And bang, they go. They go nocturnal. So what I did from February through to August, I. I culled. I think it was eight or nine Russa. Okay, eight or nine? Was it nine? I think I shot over probably four or five trips, maybe a bit more. And when I came back from overseas in January, I rang. I rang Warren. I said, what's the deer situation like? Because I was thinking about, well, if there's a couple more turned up, I'll go in there. He said, I haven't seen one since last October. He said, they're gone now. That's not a permanent solution. They will be back because the numbers are just growing.

[Mike Axelrod]

And that's how you created. You think you created a landscape of fear and have pushed them out, pushed.

[Brittany]

Them off, and the deer know it. And we saw a lot of deer. I saw a lot of deer not on his place, coming and going. And so the next part of my experiment was to. He's on a little peninsula, for example, and there's another three or four or five blocks running up the peninsula. And they have. They have deer issues as well. So what I'm saying is that if you're serious about trying to help control these numbers. And by the way, all these places back up to national parks. So the deer are moving through the national parks and onto the coastal environment, where they. Obviously, there's better feedback. And also, as I said, the peri. Urban. They go right out around Foster and all those places. Now, if there's big populations on a national park, they can fly around with helicopters and shoot them, but they can't do that in an urban environment. They can't do that around Wollongong, for example, where there are small blocks and the rooster coming down onto the highway and being hit and causing accidents and a lot of damage. So there's a potential solution to get involved at that level if government's prepared to Address it. There's not enough money in the, in the treasury to try to pay like, you know, pay shooters who professionally do. It just isn't going to be. Not going to happen.

[Mike Axelrod]

But the solution that you just presented is viable one right now. Right. Hunters just need to knock on people's doors and say, can I get permission to hunt these?

[Brittany]

Right. And it needs, it needs to be promoted as part of a integrated program endorsed by the government. Then people will be more likely to say, yeah, okay, come on board and see what you can do. And I say, you know, we've also got technology now we didn't have 10 years ago, and that's all the thermal, thermal gear you can buy, thermal scopes and all that sort of stuff. So, yep, you can do a job. And I'm not pretending for one moment that that's hunting, you know, in the, in the classic sense. But, but it's all part of a mix of what you can do, you know.

[Mike Axelrod]

Right, right. Is suppressors legal in Australia?

[Brittany]

In New South Wales, and I think it's probably pretty much the same in every state. They're a prohibited weapon in New South Wales. And that's. We've been talking to the government about that. And part of, part of what we're trying to convince them to do is to say, well, look, if you, if you, if you get a license and you become a conservation hunter, then what you should be able to do is use that as an application to, and that the police then have to issue you with a suppressor or a moderator or in, in our legislation, it's actually called a silencer. So I think, and again, the argument's pretty clear with the example I just outlined to you that if I had had the opportunity to put a, a Moderator on my 270, I wouldn't have just killed one deer on, at, at the time, I would have probably killed two or three. And it would have made it much more efficient. And the other, and the other thing is that when you're, when you're doing this, you're not wasting the meat either. There's no waste involved. What you're doing is. And I did it. Every single animal I killed, you know, I grabbed and we took, we took the meat and I distributed it out to friends of mine who like eating it, including my cousin. So, yeah, it sort of ticks a lot of boxes. And it's just a matter of trying to change the paradigm that the various. And it's the bureaucrats that are doing this. It's not so much the Government, you can convince the politician you've got a good argument, but when you go back and talk to the bureaucrats, oh no, no, no, we can't do that. Oh no, this is all too hard because they've got an ingrained beneficial interest in maintaining the failed paradigm. That's what it gets down to.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, Robert, explain. In New South Wales you have national parks, national forests, state forests, state parks, you have all those things.

[Brittany]

First, first of all, it's, it's all, it's all designated some sort of crown land. So it's all owned by the crown, other words controlled by the government. National parks are, are one the biggest estate in the state and they're all basically, lock it up and leave it. Just, you're not allowed to go in there, you're not allowed to shoot there, you're not allowed to most parts of it, you're not allowed to bushwalk, you can't do any bloody thing in it.

[Mike Axelrod]

What?

[Brittany]

Yeah. Oh yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

So tell me where this is coming from. So this idea that, you know, removing people from areas is good for areas.

[Brittany]

This is the green agenda that they're creating. Wilderness. It's wilderness, you know, and all that, all that happens, of course, is that everything grows and everything burns and that's where it goes. The second part you've got is what we call the state forest estate. Now the state forests really were forests put aside for primarily harvesting timber and growing and harvesting timber. And they've continually been attacked by green. Greenies saying that, oh yeah, can you.

[Mike Axelrod]

Hunt the state forest?

[Brittany]

And that's something we got done back in 2002. We got our, our and even the current hunting program that runs to this day, we got that state forest, or most of it, declared for conservation or mostly recreational hunting. And it's been an absolute standout success, you know, and then you're talking about hunting everything from, you know, deer, pigs, goats, foxes, feral cats, rabbits, hares, all, all those non natives that they are, they are fair game. Except horses, because at the time when we set it up, that was the government that banned horseshoeing. Now what I've said to. What I've said to the current government, I said, look, you know, again, it's. If you had allowed, if the previous government had allowed us to kill horses, you probably wouldn't have the problem you've got in Kosciuszko national park today, because it's ringed with some very large state forests that are open to hunting. But anyway, that's just by the by. But the reality is that they're addressing that problem in the way they're addressing it now. And how difficult do you think that.

[Mike Axelrod]

Would be to change now? Especially in the environment that the greenies are like, yeah, we want to shoot every single horse. How difficult would it be to add an amendment to the state forest and say can we shoot horses?

[Brittany]

I don't think you'd have a problem doing it now at all. I think, I think the, I think the example is very clear cut that if the horses were culled by licensed conservation hunters, nobody would care. You know, and we certainly wouldn't care as long as you're using adequate calibers. You know, it's. And I know, I know because I question the national parks have a shooting team that operates two helicopters in the national parks and they also run ground shooting program and they shoot 300 win mags on the ground, but they shoot 308s, 308 from the air. And you know, their idea of, of humane culling of horses is putting up to 17 shots into a horse to kill it into its thorax. And from, from where I, the way I was brought up, that's not humane. But anyway, I had those arguments in the committee. I questioned a lot of that stuff around there.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know, one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about is especially this, this mantra that you just described, which is wilderness areas, get people out of these wilderness areas. That's the best thing for wildlife conservation, it's the best thing for habitat and whatnot. And that might have been true and might have been the narrative that we needed in the 70s and 80s, but today and, and, and, and when I say 70s and 80s, I mean, because then it was acres and seas and sea of habitats, right? Just acres and acres of stuff with pockets of humans. Now there's humans everywhere pressing, pressing, pressing on these landscapes. And so there's more need now. It's almost like it's flipped. There's more justification, more need for human intervention in these places to make sure that they're functioning correctly.

[Brittany]

I agree, I agree. But that paradigm definitely has not taken hold in their so called conservation. The word conservation is badly used in New South Wales, in Australia. Conservation is wrong. They're not conserving anything. What they're doing is protecting it. It's a protection exercise. If we keep you out, humans by definition are bad. Human intervention is bad. So, so therefore we'll lock you out. Lock it up and leave it is what they do. And that's why we see the fire problems we have. That's why we see all sorts of other issues with our national parks and there's a continual program of protest today. You know, we're looking down the gun barrel of having extremely large swathe of state hardwood, state forest up the north part, north coast of New South Wales being converted into a Great Koala National Park. Now, koalas are not in. Koalas are not endangered in New South Wales. They're just not. But the politics of all of this, because the Greens, the Greens have been running this line for so long, the Labor Party has to respond, otherwise they lose their seats to the Greens. That's the, that's the long and the short of it, the politics of it. And so they, they, they bend over and sacrifice all of those timber communities up the north coast, just as they've sacrificed in previous governments. All the timbers, timber in timber industry and timber communities down in the south.

[Mike Axelrod]

Of converting that into the koala, the Great Koala national park means no more.

[Brittany]

Timber use, no more timber production, finish shut down. And so now the greens have moved. Now they can see they've got that wind coming up now. They're now moving to a conservation of the greater glider. Okay, in other words, this is one of the greater glider. And, and it's like a squirrel, right?

[Mike Axelrod]

It's got like. But it's got big wings and not wings, but it's got that membrane membranous material between its legs that it glides between trees.

[Brittany]

Now, they're supposed to be, you know, endangered. And so, so we move from 1i. And we've seen this before in the United States and other places in the world. They move from one icon species to the next and run these campaigns and tell all sorts of garbage to people living in the inner city who don't know any better anyway. Not just inner city, the Greater Sydney, for example. And a lot of people, because of property prices, are moving out of, you know, tree changing and moving out to various parts of rural and regional New South Wales. And those people take their beliefs with them and their beliefs are not well founded and they dilute those local communities. They join the local councils and effectively then over time start to turn agricultural land, good agricultural land, into protected areas as well. And that's another whole discussion for another day. But, you know, so you don't think.

[Mike Axelrod]

It'S funny that the timber folks, the people that are in going back to that Koala National Forest, the timber folks, don't have strong voices. Well, they don't have strong political ties to the people to say, what are you guys doing?

[Brittany]

Well, they have. The only political ties they have is that we represent them. That's what we do. That's one of the things we tend to work on, regional policies like this. And we've been working with the timber industry, not just now, but going back to what I was talking about before, going back 20 years. We've been fighting every step of the way. But the reality is the numbers are always against us, always against us. And it doesn't matter whether it's slightly less a chance of it happening under a coalition government shutting the timber industry down, but certainly under labor, because they're directly challenged in their urban seats by the Greens that they. They do it to try to, you know, shore up their credentials, their Green credentials. And, yeah, we. We campaign. You know, my colleague, Mark Banasiak, it's his. That's his part of his constituency, and he actually is out actively campaigning for the timber industry. And we've done an awful lot of work with them in the last. Well, this government's only been here for two years now. We're certainly doing a lot of work with them for the last two years to try to mitigate and try to stop the Great Koala National Park.

[Mike Axelrod]

Is it a done deal?

[Brittany]

I don't think it is. I don't think it is. But, yeah, we'll see what happens. Because there's one thing that. There's one thing that is a problem for this government, and that is they're a minority government. They're minority in the lower house, in the minority, in the upper house, they don't rely on.

[Mike Axelrod]

So how do they get into power?

[Brittany]

Well, because they stitch up a coalition with an informal coalition, okay?

[Mike Axelrod]

The Labor. Labor themselves are a minority, and they.

[Brittany]

Stitch up a coalition, okay? But interestingly enough, they're not. They don't look for Green support. They. Look, there's other independents in the lower house who give them support. And in the upper house, it's been the situation for, I don't know, 20 or nearly 30 years now that no government has had an absolute majority in the upper house. So because of people like us and the Greens and others.

[Mike Axelrod]

Robert, if you, you know, looked into your crystal ball, what, what could be wins for hunting in New South Wales in the next 10 years? Let's just say look at it at a horizon of 10 years. We've talked about maybe like horses in state forests, easy potential win, right?

[Brittany]

Yeah, I think. I think the. The challenge for us is to get access to more land to hunt.

[Mike Axelrod]

I would agree.

[Brittany]

Yeah. Public land hunting. I mean, we have the New South Wales started from scratch with public land hunting? We had no, no public land hunting at all and no tradition of it. Prior to 2002, our party did.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, there was no public land hunting in New South Wales prior to 2002.

[Brittany]

And that is the case in Queensland today. That is the case in South South Australia today. But I would, I would think that we're looking to expand the opportunities because the third part of the. What we didn't finish talking about in terms of land that might be available is there's, there's a lot of crown land that simply, simply exists. And there are some large blocks and small blocks and all over the state. And one of the things we've been to.

[Mike Axelrod]

What do you mean? They just simply exist. They're not designated a national forest or anything like that.

[Brittany]

They're not part of a. They're not part of a state forest. They're not part of a. They're not part of a national park. Now, if, if the greenies had a chance, they'd. They'd turn everything into a national park. You wouldn't be allowed to go anywhere. But, but anyway, these blocks, of course, some small, some large, would lend themselves, I think, properly managed, to allow for conservation hunting in the sort of models that we've been promoting for the last dozen years. I think the other wins that we can have is, I think we will get moderators. I think that will happen at some stage if any government is going to be serious. And I gotta say, this government has certainly got its ears open to listening to us. Whether they, whether they follow our advice is another issue. But I think if you really want to be serious about controlling the spread of invasive species and everything from deer to pigs to goats to all that sort of, all that sort of stuff, you really do need to improve the tools that hunters have got available to them.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, it's just, it sounds, it seems antithetical.

[Brittany]

Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

They have this line in the sand that is, we want to reduce and we need to manage these invasive species like pigs and deer and all that. And we present them, you present them. Here are tools that we can use, use a moderator. It will double or triple the amount of invasive species that we can control. Open up these crowned lands, it'll tenfold, a hundredfold, the impact of hunting on these invasive species. The great Australian pig hunt, great example. How many invasive pigs did the hunting community remove? And the economic impact of 327 million Aussie dollars, more likely. And pushed into the rural community.

[Brittany]

Exactly.

[Mike Axelrod]

Spent in Sydney.

[Brittany]

When I was chairman of the Game Council. We started the old Game Council. We started a program of doing economic measurement of the contribution. And the last survey that was done was back in 2023, I think it was. Or. Yeah, and the, it was about 508 million or $505 million.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's like the third largest GDP in.

[Brittany]

And if you, if you combine recreational fishing and, and, and hunting, those two together, they're the biggest. They're the biggest. So. Or maybe just a slightly behind the full count of agriculture if you throw that in like that. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, but. So I think there's a lot of opportunity there. It's just a matter of having the political ability to get represented. And that's really the problem. Prior to our party coming along, there was no one that represented what we do. And it was always taken for granted that you would just be able to always go shooting, you'll always go fishing. But that's not true anymore. We've seen it where governments in the past have simply tried to shut these processes down because of basically an animal rights agenda or a greedy agenda. You know, you should not be allowed to enjoy hunting. You should not be allowed to, you know, go out and catch fish and eat them, you know, and it's just, you know, it's a silly thing, but unless you're represented politically and you've got a voice and you can make a difference, you will lose it all. There's no question of that. And certainly in Australia you will. And part of that comes from the anti gun, anti gun approach that was manifest back in 96 and that still carries very strong today. Very strong.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yep, yep, yep. Well, Robert, it's always a pleasure to talk to you, my man. And I'm looking forward to seeing how we can obviously put a bigger fingerprint in, in what we do in Australia. We are growing. You don't know this, but I've got a really cool food game food, wild, innocent piece coming out of the Bush river kitchen out of the Hawkesbury river with John Raley. And we invited a bunch of non hunters from Sydney up to have a five course wild game dinner. And it was exceptional.

[Brittany]

Sounds nice. Why didn't I get the invitation? I've been sold.

[Mike Axelrod]

You don't quite fit the demographic that we were after there, Robert Borsak.

[Brittany]

Yeah, well that's true, that's true. But one thing I will mention just before you go and that is that the government's indicated to me as part of this process is that they're willing to support the introduction of a pig bandy and also a bounty on foxes and feral cats and wild dogs as well. Now, it's yet to be delivered, but I had a meeting with the treasury yesterday and I got some pretty good signals from him that they were going to support it. So that will work in quite nicely with what we've got planned coming up. And it'll be the first time you've seen such a comprehensive approach to put money into the culling of these species, into the pockets of farmers, into the pockets of shooters and hunters, but also do it on an accountable basis. In other words, we'll know exactly as they, as they did, as Ned did, how many pigs have been killed, where they've been killed, et cetera, et cetera. So they can work.

[Mike Axelrod]

Get your data. Get the data coming in. Yeah, exactly. That's awesome.

[Brittany]

We'll be part of the solution, part of the problem.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's right. That's right. Thank you.

[Brittany]

Thanks very much. Good to talk to you. Thanks, Robbie.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, that's it for today. Appreciate you listening. As always. Leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.

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