Episode 563 - Dr. H. S. Pabla || Killing People to Save Wildlife

Summary

Blood Origins Podcast Episode 563: Dr. H. S. Pabla || Killing People to Save Wildlife

Release Date: May 29, 2025

In Episode 563 of the Blood Origins podcast, Blood Origins Inc. hosts an insightful conversation with Dr. Harbhajan Singh Pabla, a retired Chief Wildlife Warden from Madhya Pradesh, India. This episode delves deep into the intricate relationship between hunting and wildlife conservation, exploring historical contexts, current challenges, and innovative solutions to foster a symbiotic coexistence between humans and wildlife.

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1. Introducing Dr. Harbhajan Singh Pabla

Timestamp [01:05 - 02:16]

The episode begins with the host, Mike Axelrod, introducing Dr. Pabla, highlighting his distinguished 35-year career in the Indian Forest Service. Dr. Pabla served as the Chief Wildlife Warden of Madhya Pradesh until his retirement in 2012, where he was instrumental in managing iconic species such as tigers and elephants and spearheading various ecosystem restoration projects. Despite multiple attempts, Dr. Pabla was unable to push through resource utilization initiatives at both the regional and federal levels, including proposals to open up regulated hunting.

Dr. Pabla ([02:16]): "So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting."

---

2. Historical Overview of Wildlife Management in India

Timestamp [10:09 - 14:34]

Dr. Pabla provides a comprehensive history of wildlife management in India, tracing back to the Indian Forest Act of 1865. This foundational legislation declared all wildlife and forest products as the property of the government, prohibiting hunting without explicit permission. Over the years, various laws were enacted, including the Elephant Protection Act (1879) and the Wild Birds and Animals Protection Act (1912), which primarily focused on regulating the use and managing human-wildlife conflicts.

Despite these regulations, pre-independence laws had provisions for protected areas and hunting reserves for the elite, leading to inconsistent enforcement and varying regulations across different regions.

Brittany ([10:09]): "Modern or pre-modern wildlife management started with the coming of the Indian forest Act in 1865."

---

3. The Impact of the 1972 Wildlife Protection Act and Project Tiger

Timestamp [12:46 - 18:23]

By the 1970s, wildlife populations in India were in significant decline due to rampant poaching and habitat destruction. The Wildlife Protection Act of 1972 was introduced to consolidate various existing laws into a single, more stringent framework. Modeled after international conservation laws, the 1972 Act marked a shift towards a more protectionist approach, although it initially still allowed limited hunting of problem animals.

Simultaneously, Project Tiger was initiated, focusing specifically on tiger conservation. This project led to the establishment of numerous tiger reserves, promoting a holistic conservation philosophy that emphasized minimal human interference, allowing nature to flourish autonomously.

Brittany ([17:24]): "Definitely, definitely at that time there was no other way."

---

4. Challenges in Wildlife Management and Law Enforcement

Timestamp [28:11 - 35:00]

Post the 1972 Act, although there were initial improvements in tiger populations, the lack of systematic, country-wide monitoring led to a resurgence of poaching and habitat loss, particularly around the year 2000. Further amendments in 2005 strengthened conservation laws, closing loopholes that previously permitted limited hunting.

Dr. Pabla critiques the centralization of wildlife management powers, arguing that it has marginalized state-level authorities. Decisions that once resided with state Chief Wildlife Wardens are now predominantly made by the National Tiger Conservation Authority, reducing the flexibility and responsiveness of local management efforts.

Brittany ([28:46]): "Most of the decision making except in the case of dangerous animals is and the policy formulation happens at the government of India level."

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5. Hunting Regulations and the Permit System

Timestamp [35:00 - 38:43]

Under the Wildlife Protection Act, hunting is strictly regulated. Permits can be issued for hunting problem animals, but the process is cumbersome, often requiring approval from administrative officers rather than the forest department itself. This bureaucratic hurdle has resulted in limited actual hunting activities, despite ongoing human-wildlife conflicts.

Dr. Pabla highlights that while some states like Bihar and Kerala have implemented more aggressive culling programs, utilizing local village heads to coordinate hunting efforts, these actions remain controversial and are often met with legal and ethical challenges.

Brittany ([36:23]): "Many states allow hunting except of species like wild boar."

---

6. Proposal for Utilizing Hunting to Benefit Communities and Conservation

Timestamp [38:43 - 47:33]

Dr. Pabla advocates for a paradigm shift in wildlife management by proposing the controlled utilization of hunted animals to generate tangible benefits for local communities and fund conservation efforts. He argues that by allowing regulated hunting, states can transform problematic wildlife from burdens into valuable resources.

In his book, "Wardens and Shackles", Dr. Pabla outlines potential financial gains from hunting, estimating that Madhya Pradesh alone could earn approximately 530 crore rupees annually from hunting permits, which could be reinvested into village communities and governmental conservation programs.

Brittany ([43:05]): "Now start benefiting from it rather than spending money on hiring the hunters and bearing the carcasses underground."

---

7. Legal and Policy Reforms Needed for Sustainable Conservation

Timestamp [47:33 - 56:32]

For Dr. Pabla's vision to materialize, significant legal reforms are necessary. The current Wildlife Protection Act focuses predominantly on protection, lacking comprehensive provisions for the sustainable utilization and management of wildlife. Dr. Pabla calls for amendments that incorporate conservation and management into the legal framework, enabling states to exercise greater autonomy in wildlife management.

He emphasizes the importance of fostering a symbiotic relationship between humans and wildlife, where both can coexist beneficially. This involves not only regulating hunting but also ensuring that communities directly benefit from wildlife, thereby fostering a sense of ownership and responsibility towards conservation.

Brittany ([56:32]): "Symbiosis is something in which you welcome conflict. Everybody knows conflict coexistence is a very uneasy assembly."

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8. Vision for a Symbiotic Coexistence Between Humans and Wildlife

Timestamp [56:32 - 58:16]

In the concluding segments, Dr. Pabla envisions a future where wildlife is an asset rather than a problem. By enabling communities to derive economic benefits from regulated hunting, local populations can become active participants in conservation efforts. This approach aims to reduce human-wildlife conflicts by providing alternative sources of income and protein, thereby aligning the interests of both humans and wildlife.

He stresses the need for innovative solutions like fencing and active protection measures to safeguard both human lives and wildlife, advocating for a balanced approach that respects both ecological integrity and human livelihoods.

Brittany ([53:56]): "Animals are welcome. At the same time, people kind of try to create systems in which animals don't have to suffer and people benefit from the animals."

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Conclusion

Dr. Harbhajan Singh Pabla's insights offer a compelling argument for re-evaluating traditional conservation models in India. By integrating regulated hunting into conservation strategies, there lies potential to bridge the gap between human communities and wildlife, ensuring sustainable coexistence and enhanced conservation outcomes. This episode of Blood Origins underscores the importance of innovative, community-centered approaches in modern conservation efforts.

Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Pabla ([02:16]): "I wanted to convey the truth about hunting."

• Brittany ([10:09]): "Modern or pre-modern wildlife management started with the Indian Forest Act in 1865."

• Brittany ([43:05]): "Start benefiting from it rather than spending money on hiring the hunters and bearing the carcasses underground."

• Brittany ([56:32]): "Symbiosis is something in which you welcome conflict."

---

For more insightful discussions on conservation and hunting, subscribe to the Blood Origins podcast and stay updated with episodes that challenge conventional perspectives to foster a sustainable future for wildlife and humanity.

Transcript

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[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Pabla]

Dr. HS Pablo.

[Mike Axelrod]

Is a very distinguished individual out of India. I was fortunate enough to sit down with him in a very, very small hotel room in a very rural village in India.

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Pabla]

Dr. Pabla is retired as the Chief.

[Mike Axelrod]

Wildlife Warden of Madhya Pradesh in 2020 12. So he's been in the Indian Forest.

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Pabla]

Service for 35 years.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's one of the most prestigious postings that you can have. He has worked with iconic species from tigers to elephants to all sorts of ecosystem restoration projects. He also tried multiple times to try and get resource utilization pushed through at the Madhya Pradesh regional level and at the federal level, including potentially opening up hunting.

[Brittany]

Again.

[Mike Axelrod]

He was not successful, but Dr. Pablo is just a wealth of information, a true gentleman in the sense and I was fortunate enough to just sit down with him, have an amazing conversation. If you want to watch this conversation, we filmed it in this hotel room. It's on YouTube if you feel like watching it in person. But enjoy.

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Pabla]

So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting.

[Braxton]

It brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals.

[Brittany]

How do I start it? Brittany My name. Does my hair look okay?

[Mike Axelrod]

My name is Mike Axelrod.

[Braxton]

Start again.

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Pabla]

Yeah, I hated it too.

[Braxton]

Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time.

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Pabla]

There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to hunter.

[Braxton]

You did tell me your first name.

[Brittany]

Yesterday, but Harbadin Singh Harbardin Singh Singh.

[Braxton]

Dr. Pablo.

[Brittany]

Dr. Harbhajan Singh Pabla.

[Braxton]

Welcome to the God Origins podcast.

[Brittany]

Thank you.

[Braxton]

First time we're doing a podcast in India and you're my first guest. I've done a podcast with B. But that was over.

[Brittany]

Oh, yeah.

[Braxton]

Over the Internet.

[Brittany]

Over the Internet, wasn't it?

[Braxton]

Lied in person.

[Brittany]

Yeah.

[Braxton]

Somebody in India.

[Brittany]

Good to have you here.

[Braxton]

Yeah, it's amazing.

[Brittany]

So we had a. I saw the movie. All that didn't go well. Killing the Shepherd.

[Braxton]

That was Tom Operates.

[Brittany]

Tom operates. Yeah. Very nice. Yeah.

[Braxton]

Very good.

[Brittany]

Very good movie. Yeah.

[Braxton]

Big fan of Tom's.

[Brittany]

Yeah.

[Braxton]

What he does. Yeah, yeah. He's got some. Some good stories and some good. He's got a great eye for telling.

[Brittany]

Although that is somehow telecast didn't go very well, but it was very nice as per the. Watch it. Yeah.

[Braxton]

So introduce yourself. Who. What have you are retired now?

[Brittany]

Yes, I'm a retired, I would say forester who had a special interest in wildlife conservation in India. Most of my life. All my life I worked in the state of Madhya Pradesh in the middle of India, in the center of India. It's called Heart of India.

[Braxton]

The Heart of India.

[Brittany]

And that's what it's actually called. Yeah. The state called the Heart of India. Every state has some kind of a name for itself. The Kerala calls God's own country part of India. Yeah. Right.

[Braxton]

And is it the heart of tigers in India too?

[Brittany]

Yes, I think we have the largest number of tigers and the largest forest area in the country. Largest maybe. Hopefully the tribal population in the country. Wow. Yeah.

[Braxton]

So there's a even. You said you've been retired since 2012?

[Brittany]

Yes, I retired in 2012 after 35 years in my service.

[Braxton]

35 years. And at the height of when you retired, you were the chief.

[Brittany]

I was a chief wildlife warden for my state.

[Braxton]

And what does that mean for people.

[Brittany]

Who don't understand that that's the top position in the forest department, managing the wildlife. The forest department is one department and there's one guy called now names have changed actually. Now. Pittsburgh Chief Conservative Forest. We had two Pittsburgh Chief Conservative Forests at the time. One headed the wild left wing, the other one headed the forest department in general, but specifically looking after non wildlife activities of the department.

[Braxton]

And today is that position combined or it depends on the states?

[Brittany]

No, they're two separate positions now. Yeah.

[Braxton]

So there's really those two people, in your opinion, do they speak to each other? Like, are they.

[Brittany]

Yes, of course. They're part of the same organization. And now actually the organization has changed the system has evolved. Now the new position above that level is called the head of the forest force. That guy is the, is the in charge for all the activities, wildlife and forestry and many other kind of sections of the department. And the wildlife man looks after the wildlife issues of the state.

[Braxton]

Well, give us a little bit of history before we start because obviously my next question was going to be the same as I have yesterday, which is how flexible is is your, your ability to manage wildlife. But before you answer that question, give us a little bit of history of the Wildlife Protection act here in India.

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Pabla]

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[Brittany]

I see. I would say modern or pre modern wildlife management started with the coming of the Indian forest Act in 1865.

[Braxton]

1860.

[Brittany]

65. In that act, the provision that still continues, although the act has been revised several times, that wildlife and wildlife products, skins and horns and antlerless meat and everything which comes out of the forest is a forest product is forest produce and government owns that. So nobody can hunt animals or use animals without permission from the Forest Department. So before Independence, before the 1972 Act, Indian Forest act was the ruling law. Then several wildlife specific laws came in. One came in 1879, the Elephant Protection Act. Then in 1912 came the Wild Birds and Animals Protection Act. Then there were Unwary and Bombay Wild Animals and Birds Protection act, something like that. So there were several laws all through.

[Braxton]

This time frame, people were utilizing the resources.

[Brittany]

Yeah, most of those laws were actually for regulating, use or conflict management. So like most cases, all animals which became dangerous came too close to habitation or destroyed crops, etc. Etc. They were liberally hunted, although in these areas called either reserve forests or some states had wildlife preserves, some states had protected areas for wildlife. So many, many sets of regulations continued in different parts of the country because some areas are ruled by the state, by the local rulers, and some other areas ruled by the British directly. So they had their own regulation almost similar.

[Braxton]

Were there areas at the time, as you were just mentioned, protected areas that there was no hunting allowed.

[Brittany]

In the protected areas. Only in very special cases hunting was allowed. Wildlife preserves were basically for hunting by the elite, while other people republic was allowed to hunt outside those areas. Depending upon what the interest was. Some maybe were hunting for the pots, some were hunting them for relieving the stress they were getting from the depredations from these animals, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah.

[Braxton]

So you mentioned yesterday that in the, I assume it started in the 50s, but very much in the 60s and 70s you were having very much a decline in wildlife here in India.

[Brittany]

Yes. When the 1972 the Wildlife Protection act came, it was set in a scenario where everything was declining.

[Braxton]

Why was it declining?

[Brittany]

I think one naturally poaching and habitat destruction. Because probably after independence there was some kind of a free for all and laws were little hazy and there were several laws which probably nobody knew which law actually prevailed because I said then there was Indian Forest act, there was the Elephant Protection act some areas, then there was wild Birds and Animal Protection act laws and there were several sets of rules made in them. And some states adopted the laws which were prevailing before independence in those areas. Like if some parts of Indian rulers territory was merged into a new state post independence those laws came over. So things like there are confusing, very confusing. And in 1972 all these laws were merged into a single law called the Wildlife Protection act which by and large were modeled on the same laws. Although they picked up the pieces from here and there from different laws. The best parts, like only very few pre independence laws had provision for protected areas, national parks, sanctuary. So we poke the picture from there and then there are.

[Braxton]

In that Wildlife Protection act in 1972, was there a clear mandate that old use of wildlife now ceases?

[Brittany]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. That law allowed utilization. It has a provision for hunting not only the problem animals. At that time the states made rules. In my state, sales rules are there, although they're no longer applicable. There's a proven farm making shooting blocks and the hunting fees were prescribed. And this was all in the 1970 act? Yes. So these provisions were deleted. Later on in 1991 they were deleted. Deleted. So these, although these provisions were there, but despite these provisions, many, I don't know, many states allowed hunting except of species like wild boar.

[Braxton]

Yeah. Problem animals.

[Brittany]

Problem animals, yeah. So Prumbalin, or maybe if I'm not, I'm not maybe Some states might have done it. No shooting blocks were notified actually after this law came into force. But the provision was there and the people were still able to hunt birds, etc. Etc. Up to 91 where all hunting was closed except of the problem animals, dangerous animals.

[Braxton]

So what happened in 1991? Was it just a big push from a very large anti use, I think movement or was there still very much?

[Brittany]

No, I don't think there was a push. Maybe the people within the government in decision making position, they realized that they need to be more stringent.

[Braxton]

Bottle is still declining.

[Brittany]

Probably there was no systematic monitoring at all India level. Tiger population was seen recovering. I came into service 1977. After that we did see kind of increasing trends in the areas we were. But we didn't know the all India picture. But only when around the year 2000, a clear decline was visible that very high levels of poaching maybe somehow kind of influenced by the demand in China and these countries, especially the tiger came into view. And then in 2005 the new laws, laws were further strengthened and this utilization question was especially totally closed. Yeah, over time our law has been kind of moving in this direction. A more protectionist kind of elements have come in now.

[Braxton]

But in your opinion at the time you probably need a more. You needed more of a protectionist?

[Brittany]

Definitely, definitely at that time there was no other way. So two things actually happened. Number one, this new law came in and so it was. There was clarity all over the country that what is the law governing wildlife and how we could go about it. Second was with Project Tiger coming in, new focus on tiger conservation came. It was kind of principle of holistic conservation in the sense that the ruling thinking was that you leave nature alone and keep people out. Nature would take care of itself. So several areas were notified as tiger reserves and the number ultimately, I mean over time continued to increase. So now a large part of the wildlife conservation areas are now actually tiger reserves where tigers. There was time when many tigers didn't have tigers. But now many areas outside tigers have significant tiger populations now.

[Braxton]

Part of that. In the past you were a part of that, right? In terms of tiger relocation and tiger movements, you did a lot of that work?

[Brittany]

Oh yes, yes. We were the first state, we were the first to lose tigers from one of our protected areas in Madhya Pradesh and two areas well known because infamous for losing tigers, Sariska in Rajasthan and Panna in Madhya Pradesh.

[Braxton]

Every single tiger or to the point.

[Brittany]

Where they were very to the point. Although when we rebuilt the population, we found out that some tiger was still lingering there. But at that time, the general impression was that we lost everything. So we brought tigers in from other parks, from Karna Bandhugar. First we bought wild tigers, then later on we also brought in tigers which had been raised in captivity. They were orphaned at very young age and they were brought in. They did very well.

[Braxton]

So hold on, hold on, hold on. So you had, you got documentation?

[Brittany]

Yes, we have documentaries of tigers that were in captivity. Yeah.

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Pabla]

And then you release them into the wild.

[Brittany]

Wild.

[Braxton]

And they turn back to wildcats.

[Brittany]

The wild, the bread. Yeah.

[Braxton]

Have you been staying abreast of the whole captive bread lion issue in South Africa?

[Brittany]

Largely, yes. But this is totally different. There's not a long line of captive bred animals. They were selected animals which had been orphaned in a protected area and they were raised by the park there itself.

[Braxton]

Genetically they were. There's a whole genetic component.

[Brittany]

Oh yeah, they were completely wild. Genetically they were wild. Yeah.

[Braxton]

Raised in captivity.

[Brittany]

They were first prepared for kind of a life in the wild. Some training, the hunting training was given and some kind of fear of human beings were put into their minds before they were released. So they did very well. And now this has become a routine, especially in my state and Madhya Pradesh. Any tigers which are orphaned and young age, they are raised and later on they're released into the wild. And nearly all of them done well.

[Braxton]

Wow.

[Brittany]

Yeah.

[Braxton]

How many tigers do you think you were involved with in terms of their relocation?

[Brittany]

My time we did in one park, five tigers we released. And that tigers now park is now full of tigers. More than 100 tigers now in that area. Wow. And since then, I documented in a paper last year, most likely some more than two dozen tigers. Orphaned tigers have been now released into parks and we have created totally new populations now in different places. Like there's one sanctuary called Noradhahi Sanctuary. It has more than a dozen tigers. Now this started with two tigers brought from other parks. Similarly population, Sinjay Tiger Reserve, it's called Sanjay tigers and Madhya Pradesh, it also has a good thriving population of tigers. Now there was almost none at one time. So tigers were brought mostly not necessarily orphaned, but from other parks. And now any tiger that becomes orphaned at a young age, then they, they raise it carefully in the raising the forest department. Forest department and in the parks. They have enclosure in the parks and they try to give them wild prey as far live prey as far as possible. And then when they first the problem.

[Braxton]

Will give them live prey.

[Brittany]

They'll put live prey inside. Yeah, yeah, they do. Off and on. But generally when there are the roadkills or something, then they put them in and they keep feeding. The NGOs don't go crazy sometimes. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they do, yeah.

[Braxton]

That's crazy to think so, like I'm making a joke of it, right, that the NGOs would cause a problem with feeding alive.

[Brittany]

The system is like this. We have an enclosure in the forest and there are gays for interning animals from the wild into there. So they walk into that enclosures. Yeah. So you first herd them into a donny enclosure. Then one day you open the door and they go into tiger enclosure. They live together and open on the tiger takes one. Yeah, Large enclosures.

[Braxton]

How big in terms of the enclosures? Five acres, five hectares.

[Brittany]

Oh, and the first one we tried was seven hectares.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Brittany]

Now I think they're much larger. Although I'm not in touch. Now select the gaur enclosure which we created in Bandhugarh for translocating Gaur from Kana to Bandhogarh, again for reintroduction purposes. That's also being used for housing tigers which are going to be relocated or which are going to be released later on. There was 100 hectare enclosure. Which part. How much of that they have now earmarked for tigers? I'm not sure, but it's very large.

[Braxton]

And you're saying a lot of the translocation work that you guys do here, the capture work, the game capture work, the translocation work, that's modeled off of South Africa.

[Brittany]

Yeah, especially the herbivores, ungulates. The tigers we have been capturing all the time, although we were not releasing them back into the wild until this thing happened in Panna. And so they were all kept in kind of cages until the end. Now, most tigers which are captured and which are found, good for release, they are released. But the mass capture of herbivores, the gore and the deer, we learned from South Africa.

[Braxton]

And you did that at the same time as tigers were being repopulated?

[Brittany]

Yeah, it is a bundle, actually. They were overlapping programs. So what happened was that it was very interesting story. And beyond, which was called CC Africa at the time, they wanted to do business in India and they wanted to build lodges in Madhya Pradesh. And they happened to meet me and we asked them, okay, you're coming to India, welcome, but what are you doing? Could you do for us? Exactly my question. Yeah, so how are we going to benefit from your presence here? They talk about tourism, you know, sustainable tourism, that's fine. But concrete terms, what are you going to do with them? Then they mentioned that they have a lot of experience in capturing translocation of ungulates. Okay, fine, we want that. So they wanted to build a lodge in Bandhogar. First lodge. And we had lost our God population from Bandhogar Some how many, 20, 10, 15 years before, somewhere 1995 or so we had lost the last gore from there. Okay, let's reintroduce gore there. Then we developed a plan and CC Africa wholeheartedly, along with the Indian partner, the Tata Group, the Taj hotels, they wholeheartedly supported us. They trained our people in South Africa. They provided equipment and they provided consultancy. Their experts visitors several times to help ensure that the infrastructure was ready. Now the word Boma has been completely accepted internalized in India. Now everybody knows what the boma is a South African word. So then when we did the first capture with swam the KZN wildlife and their chief wildlife capture expert and people from and beyond, they were on the spot. They did it with us, then trained us. Then our people did it when they stood aside just watching. And now we do it on our own.

[Braxton]

Amazing.

[Brittany]

And now I think people have moved more than 10,000 spotted deer now from one park to other.

[Braxton]

Does there still need an MBF for that? Is wildlife still being relocated and translocated right now?

[Brittany]

Not all the states. If I'm. If I know if my information is correct, Mother Prayer is doing it in a big way. Because many areas where tiger populations seem to be rising, we need more prey base. And some places we have adequate prey base and sometimes we think that we can spare animals from there. So we pick up animals from PDAs like Pench or Kana Santa, you from Mahanduga move into areas which are coming up.

[Braxton]

You know one of the things of driving around the Pench tiger reserve that really was eye opening to me was the density of prey page. High, high numbers of spotted deer, high numbers of samba deer. Peacocks everywhere, pigs everywhere. Yes, yes.

[Brittany]

Peych is probably one of the most densely populated as far as ungulates are concerned. That's where most of our translocations are happening. Now if Kana provide 500 teethal for another tiger, Zeb page provides maybe 2,000. Yeah, something like that. Yeah. So yeah, this we do. What?

[Braxton]

When you were one of the things I asked you yesterday when you were the chief warden, I asked you whether or not you had flexibility before job or wildlife management.

[Brittany]

Unfortunately no. Our law is such that over time all the powers of the states chiefile war basically replace the state as far as wildlife convention concerned have been taken over by the central government. Law has been amended over time again and again to concentrate powers in government of India. We've been protesting even I written books about this issue. My book is called Wardens and Shackles. It's one of my books.

[Braxton]

You just could not do your job.

[Brittany]

That's right. So yeah, most of the decision making except in the case of dangerous animals is and the policy formulation happens at the government of India level. And states are generally expected to follow. And not many states protest and reason. It's difficult to understand because I would allowed myself to be fully in charge. Actually when the law was made, the chief oil warden of the state was almost the CEO of Conservation Estate. There was not much that government India was supposed to do except kind of licking an eye and supporting them here and there with money or maybe training or vision. But over time somehow maybe government India start to stop trusting the states that they cared enough about their wildlife. So laws have been amended over time. That first with Project Tiger. Project Tiger was only a project, it was not a law. Then in 2006 after the big debacle of when the tiger decline National Tiger Conservation Authority was constituted. It was given sweeping powers in the tiger reserve and even adjoining areas. So now in the last amendment, even non tiger reserve sanctuaries have to follow what the government of India says in the form of. Because they issue guidelines for management of sanctuaries. Now earlier states were deciding how to manage them. So over time, as I say, most of the major decisions are made at the center. And if you have a problem animal, fine. But if you you want to do management then you need so many permissions that by the time you get all the permissions, time runs out or the problem goes away or the officer is transferred or whatever.

[Braxton]

Is that what you were saying in terms of there is a difference between dangerous animals and other animals. You had some powers when it came to dangerous animals.

[Brittany]

Yes, dangerous animals. The chief Wiley Ward has complete power. What do you mean by that? That if an animal is deemed dangerous to human life or property, Chief Wale warden can have them hunted but he doesn't need anybody's permission. Although of late central government again has sent directives that okay, if a man eating tiger has to be hunted earlier T. Wiley wardens could engage any good hunter from the public to do this. Now they say no, only the forest officers have to have to hunt the problem animal. Whether they have the training, whether they have the weapons or the scale set up, God knows. So it's very scary thing. Then similarly it's still in place today. It's still in place today. And similarly perhaps there's a direct amount that Chief Oil avoidance have to consult the National Tire Conservation Authority before declaring an animal dangerous. I mean they say don't use the word man eater even if he is so problem animal or whatever you say. So chief oil wardens have to keep were looking over their shoulders and keep asking directions, instructions, approval from government of India before they really do something concrete on the ground.

[Braxton]

You think it's worse today than it was when you were the chief warden?

[Brittany]

Yes. At least these two things were not there at the time. One that we. Fortunately during my time we didn't have any major many incidents in my state.

[Braxton]

Because you were building the population.

[Brittany]

Yes. Not only that we still have significant population. Leopards were there, bears were there. But nothing alarming was going on. But still section 11 of the boiler Protection act which allows you while award and the power to have these animals hunted either killed or captured. That was sacrosanct. So no interference from anybody was there. But now as they say that the directions from Government of India that you have to only deploy forest officers to do this job. All those forest officers are after their training in academy. Almost none of them, none of us fires guns without training. We don't carry guns.

[Braxton]

That's when I asked them, you know the forest department in these areas they're not issued.

[Brittany]

We have weapons. A few we don't carry them. But they are only used in these emergency. You know sometimes and they in many cases they have to capture the police and you take out only. Only when they're required. We are not a weapon carrying organization. So. And then at least the non tiger reserve sanctuaries were completely under the control of the sea oil warden earlier which still is a significant area. But now with the last amendment even those sanctuaries have to be managed as per the guidelines of government of India which sometimes you may disagree with. But how these new chief island wardens are doing probably they would know better.

[Braxton]

In your time as the chief warden and obviously post2012 were you very much. And obviously since 1992 there's been no 91. 91 since 91 no hunting number one. But no use of wildlife at all.

[Brittany]

Yes, yes, that's right. No use is not allowed. No trade is allowed and no. No possession of wildlife is allowed because it belongs to the government, the state.

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Pabla]

Yes, every part of it.

[Braxton]

Even where it's dead.

[Brittany]

Yeah. Since I started talking somewhere in the 199596 that we have to Generate benefits for the people. And we have to actively reduce the nuisance value, meanness value of the animals to the local people. Most states have come up with regulations which allow hunting of crop breeding animals. But no utilization of no utilization. The impression probably is this, that because these animals are state property, nobody can utilize it. Second belief in our country is that if you allow consumption, it will result in poaching or increasing poaching.

[Braxton]

That makes sense.

[Brittany]

So that is the reason. So as far as the first part is concerned that this is state property and it cannot be utilized by anybody. I think that that can be slightly modulated because if the state owns and state decides that it would give it to the people or to whoever the government wants to do, it should be possible. The owner always has the liberty of doing it. So if you allow somebody to hunt now, most states allow hunting.

[Braxton]

Talk to me, what does that look like? You say most states allow hunting, but hunting is illegal. According to the Wildlife Protection act, no.

[Brittany]

Hunting a problem animal is legal under permit.

[Braxton]

Okay, so who can get a permit?

[Brittany]

So it varies from state to state, like say in Madhya Pradesh by state. This is very interesting. We allowed hunting of Nilgai somewhere 1997 or so to satisfy demand from suffering farmers. But the politicians probably didn't want to go all the way to really see hunting happening. So the rule was made that, okay, you can hunt a deal guy, but it has to be hunted in the same place where it has destroyed the crop. Okay? So you have to identify that animal, then wait till that animal, then you go get a permit and it has to say still to be there, something like that.

[Braxton]

No, you couldn't go get a permit and then wait for no guy to come to seals. You had to.

[Brittany]

Unfortunately, that is the law even today. So when I was a chief, order.

[Braxton]

In a minute, right?

[Brittany]

No, you apply and wait and wait days, weeks. And that permit is not issued by the forest. It's issued by an administrative officer, subdivisional magistrate. And so no hunting is happening. But since then, things have changed. Many states have actually gone ahead and hired hunters to cull animals. Nilgai and wild boar particularly. Two states are very notable, Bihar and Kerala, where they have now allowed the village heads to engage hunters in coordination with the forest department and do the culling. And they kill thousands of animals every year. But as I said, there's no utilization allowed. They're all disturbed.

[Braxton]

None of that. So this is what blows my mind. Because we've been in these. I've been in these villages now for, you know, six days Not a little present. Very poor.

[Brittany]

Very poor, right.

[Braxton]

Very, very poor, yes. Probably protein deficient.

[Brittany]

Extremely deficient.

[Braxton]

Yet you've got massive amounts of protein being.

[Brittany]

Yes, yes, that's a tragedy. Now, see, most states have crossed that red line that hunting will not be allowed. Now it's just going one step ahead to make that, you know, that decision sensible by somehow putting the proceeds from their hunting into the economy. Either you let the villager Eden or to sell it to make money for. For community benefit.

[Braxton]

Yeah. And that's not going to. Again, I. I totally get the idea that, you know, letting animals be used can lead to people poaching and, you know, going back to the 70s and, you know, 60s, 70s, 80s, I guess. Right. But again, as I was telling you yesterday, if you, if you gave the power, and it seems like there is the structure in place, you gave the power to the village head and you said, okay, as a community, we are going to drive benefit from the wildlife that is problematic to us.

[Brittany]

Problematic.

[Braxton]

As I said, I was walking through a field. Orange farmers were losing their orange crop through parakeets. Somebody would pay $200 a day to hunt those parakeets. I see there were partridges in the field.

[Brittany]

Okay.

[Braxton]

To shoot one, they would probably pay $200 a day. Right. And then a wild boar, if you set them, put them in the machine, let them be the watchers. And to shoot. The potential of shooting a wild boar is 200 days. So there's $600 a day.

[Brittany]

Right.

[Braxton]

And the village chief could go, okay, that money's going to come to the village.

[Brittany]

Absolutely.

[Braxton]

And we're going to distribute it to the village situation as your ecotourism scenario.

[Brittany]

Well, I have been working on regulations on the same line for the last. How many? 30 years. And all the ministers with whom I work, they wanted it. They were on my head. Give us the tools, we'll do it. Give us the rules, we'll do it. But somehow, as I told you, we were unlucky to not be able to actually clinch the issue. And something unfortunately happened at the last moment. Either there was elections or the minister got changed, or the secretary got changed, something like that. And everybody accepted the principle that if the wildlife becomes beneficial to local people, it'll be easier to conserve it. And if people start treating it as an asset, then naturally we can even think of promoting wildlife in place of, say, marginal lands where agriculture is not viable and they can be more productive.

[Braxton]

And even the softening of pain, which is the nilgais coming in, eating my wheat.

[Brittany]

Yeah.

[Braxton]

Yes. You're taking the nil guy out. He is already softening the problems.

[Brittany]

Absolutely.

[Braxton]

Soften it even more and say okay, hey, there's some meat that you can use. You can feed it to your dog.

[Brittany]

Nil guy. We generally think there's a problem because the word is guy. Guy means cow. A cow is sacred to us Indians. So a lot of people think that even if you have rules in place, neel guy not going to be hunted. But I just read last Bihar has already officially shot more than 5,000 nil guys in the last two, three years and buried them underground. So that red line has also been kind of crossed. So people know that it's not a guy, it's not a cow, it's an antelope. Nothing to do with our holy cow. So. But still I think maybe our administration, our politicians need one more nudge now that they have all accept that without hunting there cannot be wildlife conservation. You can debate the systems which will be helpful and which will be more appropriate to our cultural and social beliefs. But now to kind of move from killing to sustainably, you rather have a mass killing in one go rather than having graduated in.

[Braxton]

Essentially you've already got that, you've already got step one which is killing.

[Brittany]

Yeah. So now start benefiting from it rather than spending money, spending tons of money on hiring the hunters and then bearing the carcasses underground and spoiling the ground. And rather than them doing that, we can earn much more money from these animals. You know I did calculations in my book, one of my last book besides loving the Bees, how much Madhya Pradesh can earn if they allow hunting of crop breeding pigs. And what did your calculations come out here? It's a huge amount. I use international fees, et cetera. Going and rather more conservative. It's been how much? We'll say 530crore rupees per annum can go to the village communities and some 78 or 79 crore can go to government as an avenue.

[Braxton]

And not only like for instance me, if you take me, I'm here, right? Going around the villages. I'm not hunting but technically I could be. And we're stopping in the road sign shop every day, having tea, having samuses. You know, we're staying in the hotel, we're staying in the resort.

[Brittany]

Right? Yeah. The number of jobs it will create, I haven't calculated that. I said okay, that is an additional. This can be maybe as much as the direct revenue coming from hunting. So and hunting the problem and which we all want to get rid of. Nobody's happy with the end these.

[Braxton]

Nobody's saying don't do it right. They're saying there's no problem. Yes, and we have a problem.

[Brittany]

Everybody agrees. And these pigs don't only destroy crops, they kill people. I think they kill as many people in India as the tigers and leopards do. Only yesterday I was reading then in Kerala last year, eight people were killed by pigs and maybe about eight people killed by tigers.

[Braxton]

Oh, man.

[Brittany]

So they are not less dangerous than the tigers. So if you can start benefiting from them, probably nobody would want to eradicate them. Maybe you just want to have a population which you can sustain the losses which can.

[Braxton]

Pigs, from a pig perspective, you're never going to eradicate.

[Brittany]

Never, never going to eradicate them. So you have to manage them. So without managing things, there's no future for our farmers as well. You know, this species has spread into areas which we never know them in the urban areas open far away from forests. I come from Punjab. I had never heard of wild pork, boar in my village. Now they're there. They're there. So. And Punjab was once. Okay, that's a very interesting one. Punjab was one state which was allowing consumption of hunted wild pig until two years ago. Punjab.

[Braxton]

But no more.

[Brittany]

No more. They changed the law under pressure from, probably from central authorities and also, of course, from the NGOs, to just not.

[Braxton]

Allowed to eat the pigs that are being culled.

[Brittany]

They're culled, yeah.

[Braxton]

Unbelievable. You don't. Do you think in. Do you think it's possible, given, as you've said, there's a couple of steps already in place. Culling is already in place. The, the, the, the softening around hunting.

[Brittany]

Seems to have happened, right? It has.

[Braxton]

Do you think that there is a chance in the next five years, 10 years Fox. 10 years of an opportunity that we've.

[Brittany]

Just essentially created, which is, I think good sense has to prevail in the.

[Braxton]

Wild in one village, that's one village with one state department, one forest department guy that says, I'm going to interpret this a little differently and I'm going to give a little bit of benefit of the wildlife to you and let's try this.

[Brittany]

Absolutely. It can happen. Just one creative person and the blessings of his bosses up there. It can happen. Law doesn't stop it. Although law needs to change a lot to introduce some sustainable conservation.

[Braxton]

Change a lot, because you just told me some of the. There's wording already in there. Conservation is in there now.

[Brittany]

But now that's very interesting. I think this is a radical change in our Law, although nobody noticed it last 20, 23, only two years ago. Who put that in there? Government of India.

[Braxton]

But who? There must be somebody who. Let's talk politics for a second. They must. If there was a change.

[Brittany]

I don't know, I. I don't know. I. I wish that my instincts they blessed.

[Scenic Cruises]

So who is that?

[Brittany]

He's. I don't know. Who is that? Maybe we didn't find out and send him flowers. So earlier it was the law was meant for protection of wild animals, birds etc. Etc. Now it says the law for conservation, protection and management of wildlife.

[Braxton]

So conservation and management are now in.

[Brittany]

There now in the law, although the sections further down don't talk much about management. Don't talk much of conservation, only of protection, protection, protection. But I think this fundamental change has come which probably open new windows. If we think the conservation needs to be more sustainable and people friendly, I think it's going to happen. We are moving in that direction. So there was a time when I started talking, people told me no Ram, this cannot happen in India. This is back in now they're, they're early 2000s. Yeah, yeah, about towards the end of the 1990s. 1995. 96. 90 this 96. I wrote the first paper you've seen change, same change definitely. And now we getting statements from ministers of the states that wildlife needs to be mel differently, Wildlife act needs to be changed. There was minister from Kerala to this a week ago that these animals who enter human habitation must feel pain. Something says yes, they should know where to go, where not to go.

[Braxton]

And who said that?

[Brittany]

A minister Abef Karamin from Kerala. Kerala, yeah. So that means there are voices which are going to put pressure on the government of India to look things in a different perspective and make conservation, as I said, more sustainable, more people friendly. And the word I started using now is symbiosis. There has to be a symbiosis between people and animals. They should work for each other's benefit rather than living at each other's costs. Wildlife doesn't have to be on our throats and similarly we should not go out and destroy wildlife completely. We should find a way where there's a win, win situation. People want animals and animals see people as something which allows them space on this planet.

[Braxton]

Especially when the human population is growing and pushing against them and pushing itself.

[Brittany]

Yes, but a country like India, I think something which nobody can understand, we are a very complex people, complex country. Despite all the problems, nobody understand how.

[Braxton]

Many people are here, many pressures there.

[Brittany]

Until you are on the ground. Oh, yes. You don't know. Outsiders never understand India. And despite all our problem, poverty, you know, lack of space, we still have all the species. All the species.

[Braxton]

That thriving lion, leopard, plus black leopards.

[Brittany]

Yeah.

[Braxton]

Tigers.

[Brittany]

Tigers, jackals, wolves, bears, hyenas, wild dogs.

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Pabla]

Wild dogs.

[Brittany]

And came up with 10 yesterday. There are more and we have that.

[Braxton]

You have wild cats?

[Brittany]

Of course. We have several wild cats, actually.

[Braxton]

So more than 10 predators on the landscape.

[Brittany]

Yeah.

[Braxton]

Rhinos, right?

[Brittany]

Yeah. How many buffaloes? Buffaloes. And species? Maybe, maybe 7, 8. Similarly, several species of antelopes and all increased. We have lost nothing. Cheetah was the only species we had lost. It has come back now. Yeah. So I don't think any other country can boast of such kind of.

[Braxton]

It's amazing diversity.

[Brittany]

Yeah, amazing diversity. At the same time conserving it despite so many constraints.

[Braxton]

Huge human population.

[Brittany]

Yeah.

[Braxton]

Very poor.

[Brittany]

Very poor.

[Braxton]

Lots of interfaces. Right.

[Brittany]

Interface people are dependent on the same resources which animals need. So the accompanies direct conflict between people and animals and people. A lot of people take these losses also quite stoically. They say, oh, this is God's will. They also have to survive. We share the earth with them. It's all fine. But I think we should not only depend on people's tolerance for conserving our heritage, we must do more so that people don't have to tolerate. They should welcome living with animals.

[Braxton]

I think that's a great statement. They shouldn't just tolerate it, they should want to.

[Brittany]

Yes. Because they see the benefits. Symbiosis is something in which you welcome conflict. Everybody knows conflict coexistence is a very uneasy assembly. You know, living together, you both have to make sacrifices. So it's again, not comfortable, but still you kind of tolerate it. Or symbiosis. If we develop a formula for symbiosis, probably that's the best we can do, that animals are welcome. At the same time, people kind of try to create systems in which animals.

[Braxton]

Don'T suffer and people benefit from the animals.

[Brittany]

Clear. That's the only way. Animals are not seen as a problem. Only if your job is dependent. If the food on your table is dependent. Don't have animals next door.

[Braxton]

Well, I think that's the key. Right. You just said that if you can start. These rural interfaces can start viewing animals not as a problem, as an asset.

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Pabla]

But rather it's an asset.

[Braxton]

Whether it's a protein asset, whether it's a monetary asset. Is there anything else? It's a protein, it's a food And a monetary asset really would you have to look at.

[Brittany]

And your crops are safe?

[Braxton]

Correct? Yes, that's a monetary asset.

[Brittany]

Along with, I think many of these populations, we also have to introduce active protection measures for people. Fences come in a big way. Our conservation thinkers normally don't plan for fences. Most of us hate, I hate fence. I want, you know, open wild spaces. Yeah. But I think that that's something which we, we need to think carefully and bring in fences in a big way, especially for the protection of the people. Animals should have a free run wherever the space is available. But wherever they are, they abut on human habitation where they can become dangerous. It's good for them, the animals also, and good for the people also.

[Braxton]

Well, I hope your vision comes true because you've been seeing it for 20 years here.

[Brittany]

I think it will. Maybe not in my lifetime, but definitely we have the trajectory now, which is promising.

[Braxton]

And you think there's people that are thinking that way in the lower generational age group?

[Brittany]

Yes. I have met, I've met a lot of young officers who, their voices are not yet very loud, but when they interact with me and I see them listening to me and they say, yes, this is the way to go. And I hope when these guys come into decision making positions, probably things will change because as I said, our training, our thinking was molded by the realities of the 60s and 70s and the people who brought both that change, they were preservationists. And that mindset has prevailed till now. Now it's a conservation mindset, now it's conservation. I think we should think they should distinguish conservation and preservation very clearly. Preservation is only about protecting without caring about what happens on the ground. So now here you have to manage carefully what needs to be promoted, what needs to be controlled and managed. Yeah.

[Braxton]

If you had a magic wand, where would you do it? Where would you test out this idea of symbiosis? Is it in your state of Bandhya Pradesh?

[Brittany]

Oh yeah. I think that's the most forward looking state. Of course, Maharashtra has now come up as even maybe more head of Madhya Pradesh. Now the last 15 years or so they've done some wonderful work. We all have problems aplenty. Now. Maharashtra especially is suffering much more than any other state where, you know, the number of human casualties are highest in the country, especially those done by the tigers. So Maharashtra and Madhya Prash probably were the best places to try to do it. Maybe one block, one district. So they can have set up a project in which benefits go to the people and see how the system goes I think it should be entirely possible.

[Braxton]

Well, hopefully we get it done.

[Brittany]

Let's hope. Yeah, there'll be people who have the tenacity to go and build a consensus around it. Because building consensus is difficult. That's right, yes.

[Braxton]

Well, I appreciate your time. I look forward to spending more time with you today.

[Brittany]

Thank you so much. Wonderful meeting you. Good to talk about the issues which are so dear to me.

[Braxton]

I'm sure it's not going to be the last time we talk about.

[Brittany]

Most welcome. You come over to India again and again. Spend money in India, benefit the paper. Why not?

[Braxton]

Exactly. Exactly. Thank you. Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening.

[Dr. Harbhajan Singh Pabla]

As always, leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do.

[Braxton]

What'S right to convey the truth around hunting.

[Robert Arrington]

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