Episode 567 - Chris Comer || SCIF New Work: Carnivores from the U.S. to Africa

Summary

Podcast Summary: Blood Origins

Episode: Episode 567 - Chris Comer || SCIF New Work: Carnivores from the U.S. to Africa
Release Date: June 12, 2025
Host: Blood Origins Inc.
Guest: Chris Comer, Director of Conservation, Safari Club International Foundation (SCIF)

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1. Introduction

In Episode 567 of Blood Origins, host Mike Axelrod welcomes Chris Comer, the Director of Conservation at Safari Club International Foundation (SCIF). This episode delves into SCIF's pioneering work in carnivore conservation, focusing on large predators like mountain lions and leopards across the United States and Africa.

2. Background of Chris Comer and SCIF

Chris Comer shares his transition from academia to a leadership role at SCIF. With a background in wildlife management and forestry from Stephen F. Austin State University, Comer has been instrumental in steering SCIF's conservation initiatives for the past seven years.

Chris Comer [03:00]: "I've been with SCIF for seven years, moving from academia to focus on practical conservation efforts."

Mike Axelrod echoes the sentiment, highlighting the fulfillment Comer finds in seeing former students succeed in the wildlife resource field.

3. Science-Based Wildlife Management Focus

SCIF emphasizes science-based wildlife management, aiming to provide robust data to inform conservation strategies. Comer explains that their mission is to address gaps in conservation funding and activity by channeling resources into areas where they can make significant impacts.

Chris Comer [05:50]: "We strive to fill the gaps in conservation funding and activities, ensuring our efforts are both effective and impactful."

Mike underscores the importance of this approach, relating it to enhancing hunter opportunities and sustaining wildlife resources.

4. Carnivore Conservation Projects

a. Botswana Leopard Survey

One of SCIF's flagship projects took place in Botswana, where they conducted extensive leopard population surveys. Partnering with the Caesar Clayberg Wildlife Research Institute at Texas A&M, SCIF utilized camera traps and spatially explicit capture-recapture models to estimate leopard populations across varied land uses, including national parks, hunting areas, and community lands.

Chris Comer [28:43]: "In Botswana, we stratified 20 survey areas by land use and deployed over 100 cameras per area to gather comprehensive data on leopard populations."

Despite challenges in data analysis, including managing millions of photographs, the initial findings aligned with existing literature on leopard densities in semi-desert habitats.

Chris Comer [35:02]: "Our density numbers were about what we'd expect for that region—ranging from 0.5 to 2 leopards per 100 square kilometers."

b. Texas Mountain Lion Study

In Texas, SCIF is addressing the lack of reliable data on mountain lion populations, where these predators are classified as varmint with no closed hunting seasons. Collaborating with local researchers and employing camera-based surveys, SCIF aims to provide the scientific foundation necessary for informed management decisions.

Chris Comer [21:02]: "We're partnering with the Caesar Clayberg Institute and deploying camera traps across private ranches to gather essential data on mountain lion populations."

5. Scientific Methodology and Challenges

SCIF employs camera trapping as the primary method for wildlife surveys, avoiding baiting to maintain the integrity of population models. This non-intrusive approach ensures that data reflects natural behaviors without influencing animal movements.

Chris Comer [30:37]: "We leave cameras on trails and roads without baiting, ensuring our population models remain accurate and unbiased."

One significant challenge in regions like Texas is gaining access to numerous private ranches, necessitating strong relationships with landowners and local experts to facilitate data collection.

6. Implications for Hunting and Conservation Policies

The data collected by SCIF plays a crucial role in shaping sustainable hunting regulations. For instance, in Zambia, scientific studies influenced the implementation of age-based quotas for male lions, ensuring hunting does not compromise population viability.

Chris Comer [13:10]: "Scientific data has been instrumental in establishing age restrictions on lion harvests, ensuring sustainability."

Mike Axelrod highlights the broader economic and conservation benefits of such regulations, noting that increased animal value from restricted quotas can lead to higher revenues for conservation efforts.

Mike Axelrod [17:23]: "Restricting supply increases animal value, benefiting both the hunting industry and wildlife conservation funding."

7. Future Projects and Expansion

SCIF plans to extend its carnivore research to other African nations, including South Africa, Mozambique, and Zambia. Additionally, they are developing a region-wide anti-poaching program focused on large landscapes, aiming to address the root causes of poaching by coordinating with local communities and stakeholders.

Chris Comer [44:15]: "Our upcoming ALPS program aims to integrate hunting concessions into broader conservation strategies, addressing poverty and community disenfranchisement to reduce poaching."

8. Conclusion

Chris Comer emphasizes the importance of independent, science-driven approaches to wildlife management, ensuring that conservation efforts are both effective and unbiased. The collaboration between SCIF and scientific institutions underscores the potential for hunting to play a positive role in global conservation strategies.

Chris Comer [48:56]: "By focusing on specific conservation areas and leveraging scientific data, we can make a meaningful impact on carnivore populations and broader biodiversity."

Mike Axelrod concludes by encouraging listeners to stay informed and engaged with SCIF's ongoing projects, highlighting the podcast's commitment to conveying the truth about hunting and its role in conservation.

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Find Out More:

For additional information on SCIF's conservation projects and initiatives, visit the Safari Club International Foundation's website. Follow them on Facebook and Instagram for updates and insights into their ongoing efforts to merge hunting with effective wildlife conservation.

Transcript

[Chris Comer]

Fishing trips anywhere, anytime.

[Mike Axelrod]

Fishingbooker.com Chris Comer is the Director of Conservation for Safari Club International Foundation. I wanted to have Chris on. He's a scientist like me. He came out of the academic world from a wildlife management perspective, but now is driving the conservation program landscape forward for scif. They're doing some great work as it pertains to a niche that they've really channeled into, which is carnivore surveys, Carnivore population estimates. They're working in Texas specifically for mountain lions, but they have done some great work on leopards in Botswana. That was sort of the flagship. Put the stake in the ground. This is what we're going to do now. Working in South Africa and Mozambique, potentially in Zambia even. So I wanted to have Chris on just to start a conversation that you guys get familiar with. Chris, familiar with the work and familiar with the things that they are doing from a science based wildlife management perspective all over the world. So you want more information, check out Safari Club International Foundation's website. They've also got some Facebook and Instagram and enjoy. So there's a reason why I started.

[Chris Comer]

Blood Origins.

[Mike Axelrod]

And that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting.

[Chris Comer]

It brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals. How do I start it? Brittany? My name is. Does my hair look okay? My name is Mike Axelrod.

[Mike Axelrod]

Start again.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah, I hated it too.

[Mike Axelrod]

Braxton, you said something in the COD of me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter. Dr. Chris Coma, good friend of mine. Welcome to the Blood Origins Podcast. First time on the Blood Origins podcast, huh?

[Chris Comer]

It is. I'm excited.

[Mike Axelrod]

But I am not popping your cherry on podcasts. You have done a couple of podcasts before.

[Chris Comer]

I wouldn't say I'm a podcast veteran, but yes, I've done a couple.

[Mike Axelrod]

I'm not a podcast veteran either. I've only done 580 of them or something like that.

[Chris Comer]

You're just getting started.

[Mike Axelrod]

I'm just getting started. Exactly. Rogan's at like 2, 400 or something like that.

[Chris Comer]

So you'll get there. I'll just need to up your, up your pace a little bit.

[Mike Axelrod]

I don't know if I can do that, man. We do enough right now. I Hear you, Chris. Introduce yourself. Who are you? What do you do? What's your position?

[Chris Comer]

Sure, yeah. My name's Chris Comer. I'm the director of conservation for Safari Covenant national foundation, which is a sister organization to sci, which many people probably are maybe more familiar with. But we, we do the conservation education side of the mission for SCI and its members. And I've been with SCI for, I mean SCI foundation for. I guess it'll be seven years.

[Mike Axelrod]

Amazing summer.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah. Been. Been. It's been a. A quick seven years. Before that I, I was in academia, so I was a professor at Stephen F. Austin State University in Nacogdoches, Texas where I taught wildlife management and forestry. So amazing that background into this this much like yourself. I guess you were. You were. You're a recovering academic as well.

[Mike Axelrod]

If I'm recovering academic, that is a good way to put it. Yeah. From the publish and perish world and raise as much money in the quickest time possible and have as many publications as. Yeah.

[Chris Comer]

The least publisher unit is one of my favorite things.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Chris Comer]

I am not there. You can.

[Mike Axelrod]

I do not miss that world.

[Chris Comer]

I am with you. I mean I miss the students and the university part of it.

[Mike Axelrod]

I miss the students and you know what's. What I do love about it is I don't know if you have any of this in your world, but I have a number of undergraduates and obviously graduate students that are gainfully employed in the wildlife resource world today. And you're like, oh man, look at those guys. They're. That's fulfilling what we talked about, you know.

[Chris Comer]

Right?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Chris Comer]

They're actually doing it like, you know, I'm sure, you know, half the time you're like, I don't, I didn't think that guy was paying attention that whole time. And I guess, I guess they were. Right. So. Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's nice even now to see that, to see these, the students having success. I agree.

[Mike Axelrod]

So you're the director of Conservation. I assume the majority of your portfolio is conservation. The education stuff happens with somebody else.

[Chris Comer]

That's right. Technically it all reports through me. All the programs do. But yes, I've got a director that, that day to day manage the education stuff. That's right.

[Mike Axelrod]

And I just. So that people understand you are helping shape sort of conservation idea, ideas and thoughts and sort of trajectories of what you guys feel is important to invest in from a SCI foundation perspective. Right?

[Chris Comer]

That's right. I mean we're, you know, if you look at our Our mission and goals, we, we, we're based in science based wildlife management. And so we try to provide information or assistance with, with issues that we think are important, where we can really make an impact that are important to our members, but also where, where maybe there's a gap in the conservation funding and activity that's out there where we can step in it and, and fill that gap and provide information or assistance that isn't already being provided. Because there's lots of, as you know, lots of entities in this conservation space. We all try to find our niche right where we can, can make a difference and have a real impact. And that's what we try to do.

[Mike Axelrod]

For the people that don't, don't obviously have not come from an academic background. They're not scientists and whatnot. Why are you guys so focused on science based wildlife management? Look guys, I'm a hunter, right? And when I go hunting I like to figure out how to get my trophies back home as expeditiously as possible. Well, you don't have to look much further than Safari Specialty Importers. We know that trophy importation can be quite a headache. That's why Safari Specialty Importers strives to make it as easy and hassle free as possible. They have access to a bonded warehouse. You won't be charged storage fees and you get a dedicated team that's readily available and will update you at every step in the process. They'll even go one step further. Safari Specialty Importers is working with us at Blood Origins and they are going to donate $100 from every shipment that they work with to conservation projects that include anti poaching community and wildlife conservation. At the end of the day, choose to spend your money with a team that's dedicated to you and is dedicated to helping show how hunting is a great conservation model. Hassle free logistics, fuel and conservation go with Safari Specialty Importers. Did you know that in 42 states it is 100% legal to buy a suppressor and protect your hearing? Silencer Central pioneered the simplified silencer buying process. It allows you to buy a suppressor online or over the phone. You go through all the paperwork with a certified expert and that suppressor ships directly to your front door. I don't even believe it, but I've done it and it's come to my door. You can buy a suppressor and have it shipped to you. They offer the best in service, a suppressor expert to make sure you get the suppressor you want. And from there they take care of everything. They take care of the paperwork, the applications to the atf. They even set up a free trust if you want one. And if you don't have the money, put down an interest free payment plan. It's incredible. You get access to your own customer portal online. It tracks your progress. So why not go get started today? Go to silenceessential.com or call 866-811-6536. And with today's fast approval times, you're actually going to be shocked at how quickly your suppressor arrives at your door. Bushnell has been a longtime supporter of Blood Origins. And in keeping with the spirit of our collaboration, we've come up with an amazing idea. Bushnell is eager to help you get set up for conservation success. That's right. They want to help you. The conservation and research community is dominated by good people doing good things and investing significant time and effort for the benefit of habitat and the species. So what do you need to do? Pretty simple. Send us your conservation story and or your conservation wish could be managing whitetails. It could be understanding your environment or species or something else related to conservation. What would you be able to do if you had a great trail camera setup? We will select the best story every other month and send you a camera bundle. Cell camera, normal SD camera, SD cards as well as optics. Everything you need to get set up for success. I can't wait to see what you submit. You can email [e-mail] DM US. Message us whatever you want. We are not hard to find. Good luck.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah, well that I think again that was a niche I think that we felt we could fulfill. Particularly when you look at some of the work that's going on in Africa, which I'm sure we'll talk about going forward where you know, some of that there may not be the resources or the infrastructure to do the kind of science based management that we do here in the United States. You know, there's a lot of funding available for it here through various mechanisms that may not be available. We felt we could help provide information, make better decisions about wildlife management. And that's what we want to do. Obviously we, we think hunting is a, in a critical component of conservation, but really it's about providing data and assistance to help conserve the species that are important to us and biodiversity overall.

[Mike Axelrod]

But we are focusing very much on data collection efforts that would not, would, could enhance hunter opportunity.

[Chris Comer]

Sure.

[Mike Axelrod]

Could enhance not and I will change from could, will advance the sustaining use of that wildlife resource.

[Chris Comer]

That's right. That's a Good way to put it. Yeah. The sustaining use. It's interesting. You know, we, we. You're collecting data with the idea of being able to manage species in a way, like you said, that's sustainable. And, you know, there's always, when, when we talk to our, our folks, our members, you know, there, there is this possibility we could come up with data that says, hey, maybe we need to. We.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. What happens if you come up with data that says, hey, you guys shouldn't be hunting?

[Chris Comer]

Yeah, that's, that's an interesting question. It has not happened yet, but it certainly, I mean, where would you stand?

[Mike Axelrod]

Where would you stand there, Chris? Let's say you got data comes, comes in like you guys have hunted the shit out of this thing and you shouldn't be hunting anymore.

[Chris Comer]

Then we. Then I would say, that's what I would say. You know, we need, right now, this population can't sustain the level of hunting that. That's going on. And we need to make a plan so that it can get there and it can. We need to, you know, to, to help this, this population do better so that down the road that sustainable use can come back and with all the benefits that come with that to that species and to the local communities and everybody else that benefits from sustainable use.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's almost how. The reason why science is so important. You know, the, the example that I keep using and you know, this example quite well, I can't remember if it was. I think it's. It's definitely out of Zambia. I can't remember where out of Zambia. Maybe it was Kafui Wildlife Management or Kafui national park, whatnot, where they had that study. It was the 2012, 2013 study in which they demonstrated that hunting was detrimental to lion populations in these WMAs. And when they put a moratorium on hunting, the lion population did extremely well. Okay, exactly what we want. Right. The problem is we didn't have somebody like yourself collecting scientific information in the 10 years leading up to 2012, saying, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Yeah, yeah, you've got an issue.

[Chris Comer]

That's right. So it was already sort of there. Right. We didn't have the data upfront, so we could say, hey, you know, if we, if. I mean, I don't, I don't want to speak too much to the details of that, but yes, if they'd known 10 years before that that they were harvesting at a sustainable rate, they could have changed that before they got to the point they were at when that study was done. Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

And I think just Generally and we'll, we'll talk obviously. Well, we can dive right into it right now. I think from a, a lion conservation, lion management perspective, I think science has had a significant, no question, alteration in lion conservation and sustainable harvest models all across Africa.

[Chris Comer]

No doubt about it. I think in the end it's a, it's, it is a positive thing. Right. We, we can say, I feel like in saying confidence, yes. That, that scientific data has, has, do.

[Mike Axelrod]

You want to give the audience like an insight of what that is, like what, what science has been used in the last 10 years that has shaped lion conservation?

[Chris Comer]

Well, one of the biggest things that's come out of it is the age restrictions on harvest of male lions. Right. So that was one of the outcomes of that work that was done in Zambia where they, they said, they basically did some population modeling and they said if you harvest lines that are above a certain age, given the availability of those lines and where there are in the social hierarchy that could be sustainable. In fact, what if I remember right, the conclusion was we don't even have to put a limit. You don't have to say we even have to have a quota. As long as you're only harvesting lines that are seven years old, that'll be sustainable. Now we still do put quotas on lines as you know, but, but that has really changed. I mean almost all the countries in the region they, they have an age restriction on, on lion harvest and of course they don't, you know, it's male only greater than seven years of age.

[Mike Axelrod]

And I think that's an important point for people to know is that there are no, I don't know of a wild female lion quota in Africa. Is there one?

[Chris Comer]

The only ones I know are. Yeah, not, not wild, free ranging populationists. That's right.

[Mike Axelrod]

There is no wild lines being taken in Mozambique under quota. There's no lines being taken in Zim. There's no females, there's no females lionesses. Right. Zim, Zambia, Tanzania, Mozambique. Who else hunts? Nobody else, right?

[Chris Comer]

Yeah, that's hunt li. Yeah. In South Africa of course.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, South Africa. But that's wild managed. There's no wild free in South Africa.

[Chris Comer]

The, yeah, the only, the only lionesses are, are in would be like conflict management. There's some of that, of course.

[Mike Axelrod]

And also, you know, we just experienced a situation in, in Zululand where these are wild managed lions in obviously fenced reserves. They get to a certain population level, they want to maintain a certain population level and that's when you're going to have to you have to.

[Chris Comer]

Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

You either have to destroy females, issue permits for females or the last resort is. And I don't know if they do hysterectomies on, on, on lions.

[Chris Comer]

I do know that they do something.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. Like I think it's called like a bilateral hysterectomy for cheetahs to reduce like breeding of cheetahs in these, in these certain reserves. But I'm sure they would do it for lions too.

[Chris Comer]

I'm sure they would. Honestly, I don't know. I've never, I have not heard of it. But they must. Some sort of birth control for Luses.

[Mike Axelrod]

Must be.

[Chris Comer]

But you know there's a, that any kind of, of contraception of wild animals as you know, is fraught with all kinds of, you know, it affects their social structure and it's not a, it's not a panacea. Right. To do contraception of any wild species.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. And you're contracepting animals that you believe are endangered.

[Chris Comer]

Right, right. Interesting. Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

Which is a contradiction to itself.

[Chris Comer]

So it seems sort of. Yeah, yeah. Counterintuitive for sure.

[Mike Axelrod]

So that line example is obviously an example of great, I think use of science. Colleen Big and the Nyasa Carnival project has got great science that has defended and helped create the age based quota of lines. It's working phenomenally well. I think it's also. I'd love to hear your opinion on this and I think this is important in the day and age that we live in and as we move forward that lions, elephants, rhinos need to have value. And I think the age based quota has obviously restricted the number of lions on quota. Yes. But has also doubled their value or increased.

[Chris Comer]

Right. If you know, I mean basic economics. Right. Back in, back in my academic history actually my master's degree is in economics so I like to talk economics when I get a chance. But. Right. That's basic. If you restrict supply of, of animals available to harvest, that's going to increase the value of those. Right. There's some. And that's, that's good for the industry, right. To have higher value.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, it's good for the industry obviously because people are staying in business.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

But indirectly it's really good for wildlife and habitat because all that money gets packed, pumped back into those systems.

[Chris Comer]

That's right.

[Mike Axelrod]

Where do you see the most value? And obviously this will lead itself into some of the work that you guys are doing. But where do you see the most need value for your kind of work? For the foundations. Sci. Foundations work from a science based wildlife Management perspective.

[Chris Comer]

I, that's a, there's of course there's lots of areas that, that we can find some value. What we have found, and this is just our experience is that there are these, there are species. When we, when we look at a species we look at species where the current data is lacking as you would imagine and where there is nobody that there's no other organization that, that is collecting those. So like in the United States we have, we have non government organizations that you know like the Rocky Mountain Elk foundation, they deal with elk and we have the Wild Chief foundation and they're focusing on Wacheap. Well, there, there's animals where there's, there isn't an organization that is focused on them. So in North America for example, one that's been, been really one that we've played a lot of lately is, is cougars, you know, Puma's mountain lions. And you know, there's no organization that's focused on, on that. Penthair I guess would be the one that does some of that work. But I'm sort of a hunting organization. There's nobody that, that's involved with that. And there's lots of places where they don't have great information about mountain lion population.

[Mike Axelrod]

Like what, what, what, what information don't we know about mountain lions?

[Chris Comer]

We're working in Texas where they don't have, they, they don't have actually good density and abundance information for lions because it's hard collecting any kind of large cat except for lions. But for most of them they're quite elusive, they're difficult to detect. It's quite an involved process to collect good information about them that's reliable. And so that's a place where we can feel we can assist in some cases African wildlife management authorities or state wild management authorities give them information to help them make good, good decisions that will be sustainable in the long term. So leading up to I guess we found that the, that the cat realm is a good one for us. That there is, there's some real space there that because these are difficult animals to survey and because you know there is an information gap that's been been one that's been quite useful for us and place where we feel like we can, we're making an impact in the carnivore space in general. Even in North America. The.

[Mike Axelrod]

A lot of it's completely lacking. There's not a single, you know, as you mentioned, there's all these Single species specific NGOs in the United States. The, you know, the latest one that's come on the scene is the American Bear Foundation. Okay.

[Chris Comer]

Right. Which is a great organization.

[Mike Axelrod]

Still very small.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

But there is no organization for mountain lunes like you said, there's no organization for wolves. There's no organization for any of that.

[Chris Comer]

And I think some of the, the more the, the hunting friendly conservation organizations that, that you and I know of, that everyone has heard of, they tend to, they don't tend to get involved with the carnivore space. Right. That's not an area that they, they, they may as far as actually funding research and stuff like that. Right. So, so again, that's it. The American Beer foundation is a great example of kind of a grassroots organization that sprung up and, and we're partnering with them actually in a lot of our work in Wyoming and Montana and those places.

[Mike Axelrod]

So tell me about the Texas mountain lion work. You guys are in there now, right?

[Chris Comer]

We are, we are in south Texas right now. Hopefully we'll be in west Texas at some point. And in this. And I don't know if you're, if people are familiar with the background, but basically the current regulation on lions in Texas is that they're considered varmints. There's no closed season on them. They can be harvested in whatever numbers.

[Mike Axelrod]

You want and in any mechanism too. Right?

[Chris Comer]

As I understand pretty much that's right.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Chris Comer]

It can be trapped or hunted and taste with dogs and all that. And they have plenty of lions we think, but there isn't a lot of good data. And so there's an effort in Texas by a couple of groups to change the regulations to put some more bounds on lion harvest. And I don't personally, there may be some room for that, but the idea is that it's not just something that's done based on, hey, you know, on some emotional criteria. Hey, we like mott lions. They're beautiful. We should protect them. We want to do this based on having good scientific data on how many lions there are. What are those populations doing?

[Mike Axelrod]

And, and so the other group that's suggesting management changes and regulation changes, they're not basing their information off of data is what you're suggesting. There is no data right now.

[Chris Comer]

There is no data. There are no data right now. That's right. And so they, and, and I'm not saying that they don't want to have data, but we just want to make sure that, that whatever, you know, Texas Parks and Wildlife is going to do, they're, they're tasked with creating a management plan for, for mountain lions in that state and we want to make sure they have the data available to make informed decisions about that. What goes into that management plan?

[Mike Axelrod]

So, Chris, are you guys doing the work yourselves or did you contract somebody? Are you giving it to Texas Parks and Wildlife? What does that look like?

[Chris Comer]

We're partnering with the Caesar Clayberg Wildlife Research Institute at Texas A and M in Kingsville. With, typically with. Well, there's a couple cat researchers down there. They're working with Michael Tuis and Daniel Scagamilio and they are. And so, so they're, we're partnering with them. They, you know, they are hiring the students and the technicians that go out and do the work. But, but our large carnivore manager, Maria Davidson is on the ground there with them and she's meeting with landowners and doing all that stuff. So one of the things, just a little bit of a tangent. One of the things that I've really tried to do since I've been a part of SIF is to have our folks to hire people that are experts in the field. Right. Maria is a great example. She spent 20 something years as the large carnivore program coordinator in Louisiana through the Louisiana Black Bear success story. Really? I know you.

[Mike Axelrod]

Exactly. Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Comer]

Anyways, hire people that are experts and have them be involved with these projects, not just give a contract. We want to, we want to use our expertise to the benefit of these species. And so, so that's what we're doing. We're partnering with them. And that means being out there with them and being a part of the study and all those kind of things.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, and I think the fact that you've, you've partnered with the Cesar Clayberg Institute gives you a little bit of a firewall from the, the standpoint of somebody saying, oh, you guys are, you guys are hunters, right, Funding this and you're going to come out with a single determination already, like you already know what's going to come out of this.

[Chris Comer]

That's what they would say. Yeah. Yes, we, that is, we want to work with independent scientific researchers that don't have. I mean, I, I consider myself that. But you're right, someone could take, could look at that.

[Mike Axelrod]

And we, we all do, we all.

[Chris Comer]

See, of course, they think that they should hunt more. Right?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, of course, of course. So how long have you, have you just kicked off that project? Has it been going for a year?

[Chris Comer]

And we just kicked it off in, in basically January.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay. How does somebody go about that? Is this for somebody who has no idea, how do you even like, begin to consider Counting mountain lines obviously being elusive. I'm assuming it's a combination of cameras, trap work and some population modeling work. Maybe some ground truthing to validate some population models.

[Chris Comer]

Right. So our basically is camera based. So that's the primary method. The challenge with lions is that as opposed to leopards, which is another species we're with is that lions are, are they don't have spots so they're not uniquely identifiable. So which raises some challenges and one of the ways that you can help it's, it ends up being a population model like you said, a spatially based population model. So you have camera data and you supplement that with radio collared individuals so you can get things like movement rates and, and spatial use which then goes into that model and helps to allow your camera data to come up with a population estimate.

[Mike Axelrod]

Have you guys, I'm assuming the guys at Caesar Clayburg are quite familiar with the Colorado CPW's work on Mountain lions because their stuff is just sheesh. It's amazing, right?

[Chris Comer]

And there's some great work going on in Utah and there is some good work going across the west on lions.

[Mike Axelrod]

So when are we, so what's the, the end result? If you, you know, let's fast forward the clock on this project. Are we talking three years, five years? Is this a five year piece of work?

[Chris Comer]

It's probably four to five years if you include. So ideally we'd like to do right now we're working in South Texas and if you, if you look at the lion population in, in Texas, there's sort of probably three potential sub populations of South Texas, West Texas and then sort of the Panhandle region. We would and that the West Texas being generally regarded as the most healthy and stable of those three. And so we'd like to, to at least get South Texas and West Texas, get some good solid information about those two populations. You know, Texas is a real, is a challenge for a variety of reasons, but one of the biggest ones is it's, it's what, 95% private ranches, which, which from a conservation perspective it has some real value. It's great. But, but from a research perspective you're dealing with many, many constituents in your project, right. It's not like you can go to National Forest or something and say, well we'll talk to the Forest Service, we've got a million acres to work on. You're talking dozens or maybe you know, by the time we're done, maybe hundreds of landowners that are going to have to be a part of this project. That's just, it's a logistical challenge. That, that, that's our, that's actually our biggest thing we're working on right now is gaining access to enough properties. And it oftentimes it's not even that people don't want you to have access. It's just finding the right people and talking to them. You know what I mean? It's not that that we have to convince them necessarily. It's just like you got to find the right person and talk to them.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah. Not just the ranch manager, but the owner and all the rest of it.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah, that's right. And they're busy people. Right. They're successful, they've got business they're trying to run and they, you know, this isn't necessarily high on their priority list, so they, you know, you just have to keep after them. But we're getting there. We're, we're actually, we've, we've hired some, some local folks down there that are very familiar with the, they're, they do consulting work down there that, that know the landowners and have relationships with them. And you know, that's the kind of thing you have to do to really make progress, is get partners on board that have those contacts or that network that can help you.

[Mike Axelrod]

So this is obviously on the back of you guys have implemented a couple of already carnivore based survey projects.

[Chris Comer]

That's right.

[Mike Axelrod]

So let's talk about those. The first one, I assume the first one was Botswana, right? That was your first like big effort that.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah, our first sort of, yeah, big time foray into doing these, these kind of large scale projects that, that's one started in. Well, we started conceptualizing in probably 2021, got on the ground in 2022 and it's pretty, yeah, we crossed paths in.

[Mike Axelrod]

2022 in Botswana that I was going to mention, remember?

[Chris Comer]

Oh yeah, of course. It's is. That was a funny sort of small world sort of incident like in the Mound Lodge and that's right. In Mount Botswana. Like, hey, Robbie. What?

[Mike Axelrod]

I'm here filming. What are you doing? Oh, I'm here camera trapping. I was like, all right, cool, cool.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah, yeah, that's funny. But yeah. So we work closely with the Department of Wildlife and National Parks in Botswana. Prioritized. We basically had 20 survey areas and we deliberately stratified them by things like land use. So it included national parks, it included hunting areas, it included community areas, private ranches. We wanted to get it as representative as we could of all the, the sort of big picture land uses in Botswana. It's regionally distributed across the whole country. And then we went to each of those areas and we did a, basically a five, I'm sorry a 56 day, eight week camera survey with about between 100 and 120 cameras per area. It's covering an area of about 800 and 800, 850 square kilometers.

[Mike Axelrod]

And are you baiting these cameras? Are you putting them on trails? What?

[Chris Comer]

On trails?

[Mike Axelrod]

On trails.

[Chris Comer]

On trails and roads.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[Chris Comer]

The baiting thing is an interesting question. The, you know, it's, you certainly can increase your capture frequency, right, if you have bait. But it, it does some of the assumptions of the underlying model, the seeker model, the spatially explicit capture recapture model, that's kind of the technique that we use to analyze these data. It relies on, it, it relies on assumptions of things like capture probability not changing. So if you bait an animal then of course it's more likely to come back to that thing which, so then you may, you sort of toy with, with violating some of those assumptions. So we didn't. Besides which, you know, putting beta at a hundred or sorry, 50 to 55 sites, just not very practical.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah.

[Chris Comer]

Keeping it happen.

[Mike Axelrod]

Impossible.

[Chris Comer]

Right, right. So yeah, so we leave it out there. We put on camera and trails and is it, it's interesting how my perspective on this change through this thing, you know, I had done some camera capping work but, but not with leopards and certainly not at this scale. And so by, so the first sort of area we went to, we, it was a hunting area and we were there for I think two and just about two weeks, a little over two weeks to put out our 54 camera sites. We had on that one. Each site has two cameras. So it's 104 cameras total, 108 cameras total. And it took a while and I was sort of agonizing about every camera placement. You got to make sure it's on the right trail. And what we discovered was that if you, you leave it out there for that long, you put it on a road or something, the leopards will show up, they're going to be there. And so by the time we got done, it took us two days to put out all of our cameras on a site, basically maybe three if the roads weren't so good, we just go put it on the road and move on, do the next one. It was very, it just became very like sort of you get it, you know how it is when you, you, you've done this while you get it down to a pattern two Teams were communicating. We would, you know, every time we put a site down, we'd send a GPS point of that site to the other team. They knew where it was, they, so we didn't overlap and it just became sort of a well oiled machine. So we can, by the time we got done, we'd put it out in two to two to three days and one to two days to pick them up and then move on and go.

[Mike Axelrod]

So had nobody. Has nobody, or maybe a better question has Panthera, which I assume is the only other organization doing Carnival Population statistic.

[Chris Comer]

And the Wild Crew out of Oxford is the other one.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, has anybody done any leopard survey work in Botswana?

[Chris Comer]

Oh, there's lots of, there's lots of independent researchers. Wild Crew has a, has some activity in northern Botswana, but there are all the other projects in Botswana in particular were sort of associated with, with a certain protected area or something. So a certain game reserve or the Chobe national park or, or they were rather than sort of going big scale like we did.

[Mike Axelrod]

But were they estimating population size?

[Chris Comer]

Some, some of them were.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, okay.

[Chris Comer]

And, and so all that money feeds, all that money, all that, all those data feeds into the Department of Wildlife and National Parks from us and from the other researchers. And then they sort of compiled all of that to get their, their full assessment of leopard population.

[Mike Axelrod]

So that is finished now, right?

[Chris Comer]

That's right. The, the field part is finished. We've got like 16 million photographs to look at.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh my God.

[Chris Comer]

And we don't have to look at them. All right. You use AI to screen them out down to like, I, I don't know what the number is. I'm guessing it's about 15 to 16,000 pictures of leopards from all those.

[Mike Axelrod]

So AI is helping you individualize leopards. Like pick out like that leopard is this leopard and that one's the same leopard.

[Chris Comer]

Not yet, although we think we're going to go there. So what we use AI now for now is to screen all the other stuff. All the grass and vehicles and people and cows and all that stuff.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[Chris Comer]

Which is, I mean that's like 90% of the images you get is stuff that's not even animals. Right. It's others.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, how do you stop yourself as. Cause you're a scientist. I would do the same things like, oh, this is going to turn into a DACA study as well. And we can get DACA statistics and we can get impala statistics.

[Chris Comer]

That's a great question. And, and there's invaluable data in there. Right about, I mean, all kinds of stuff. Caracals and honey badgers and. It's amazing. I mean you, I'm sure you've done some camera.

[Mike Axelrod]

A little bit. A little bit.

[Chris Comer]

It's like opening up Christmas gift every time you look at one of those cameras and oh, what's on there this time?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, exactly.

[Chris Comer]

So there is like, okay, leopards first and worry about other stuff down the road. What I would love to see, I think this will happen is, you know, the Clayburgh Institute suit, for example, they have graduate students all the time that are looking for projects. So you could take one and say, hey, let's go through these, these images and, and we'll look at distribution of small carnivores across Botswana and how's that associated with different habitat features?

[Mike Axelrod]

Cool. Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, that'd be great. So preliminarily, do you have any sort of insight? I. E. I think maybe the biggest question I would have would be the, the easiest. Did you see more leopards than you expected, less leopards than you expected out?

[Chris Comer]

That's. I would say the actual density numbers were about what you would expect looking at other data for that sort of region.

[Mike Axelrod]

What is that number?

[Chris Comer]

So we haven't analyzed all the data, but it's the lowest we had. Any site was like 05 leopards per 100 square kilometers and the, the highest was about two, give or take.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's generally what in this, in the literature about. Right.

[Chris Comer]

For leopards, for, for the sort of semi desert habitat. So if you go to, to like Tanzania where they have the much more rainfall and it's much more sort of forested, you'll find much higher densities. But for that sort of region, that's about right.

[Mike Axelrod]

What, what is high densities of leopards?

[Chris Comer]

So like 8 or 9 per.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh really?

[Chris Comer]

Square kilometers? Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[Chris Comer]

The, I was gonna say the other part, but the part that struck me and I, maybe, maybe I, I don't know if it struck me. We literally found leopards. Every single site we went to even didn't matter. It didn't matter. Every, you know, you, and you've been to some of these sites, you, you get some of these community areas where, you know, there's cows and goats and everywhere and they're, and the, you know, the vegetation is grazed down pretty heavily and there's, there's little cattle posts kind of all over that landscape and you're like, how could a, a large carnivore survive here? And sure enough, there are leopards there everywhere.

[Mike Axelrod]

We Went, yeah, it's, it's, it sort of proves the point. You know, you see all those videos and images coming out of India that the leopards are literally like this. They're almost like a coyote in that they can.

[Chris Comer]

The feline version of the coyote.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah, feline food. They just can live in, in places that you just think there's no way. Urban leopards all over the show just living probably in a sewer and just eking out an existence by taking the dog and cow and goat and stuff. And.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah, and some of these areas you can sort of predict these community areas in the, in the private ranches you'd see cows, goats, black backed jackals, brown hyenas, steenbok, which you know, so small antelope and leopards and a few other things. But, but that porcupines and not much else. It's just interesting how they can survive in these landscapes. So like, if you look at the, at the current map of leopard distribution in Botswana, you'll see that there's quite a part of that, you know, the iucn, quite a large part of the country is there, there's. They basically say there's, it's not suitable leopard habitat. I think one of the outcomes to this would be there is maybe there's no such thing as habitat other than open water or something. There may not really be habitat unsuitable for leopards.

[Mike Axelrod]

Interesting.

[Chris Comer]

They're quite adaptable, at least in that landscape. You know, Botswana is a. Not a densely populated country by any means, but still.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, sure. So what will be the outcome, Chris, of something like that? Like what's, what do you guys. Is it a peer reviewed set of papers? Is it what is it that, that's.

[Chris Comer]

One thing we want to. Because that, that sort of gives the stamp of yes, this is scientifically valid data. Right. So of course we know we want to publish it. The data will go into the Botswana Leopard Management Plan, which they've already finished, but they revised that periodically when it comes time to, you know, this whole sort of. The concept for this project came to me when I was at a meeting of cites. So the Convention on International Convention, International Trade of Endangered Species of Fauna and Flora, it regulates international trade, including leopards, which are listed as an Appendix 1 species until they were their national, their national quotas for all the leopard hunting countries in, in Africa. And when I first, when I went to my first set of CITES meetings in 2018, 2019, those quotas were under review. So every country in the region had to submit a report on their status of their leopard populations and did they think that their current quota was sustainable or not? Right. And to demonstrate that it either was or wasn't. I guess anyway. So as part of that all the countries did that and it was clear until there. And there are groups that want to end carnivore hunting for sure. And those groups would, would then say, you know, they say, well your data are not adequate to make this. You should, we should stop hunting leopards or put a moratorium on it, which is a whole. You can get on there about, about you know, telling sovereign nations what they should do with their resources is pretty a different discussion. But, but this I was like, hey, you know, one thing, it'll be great to be able to, when someone says that, say no, no, we have very good information about our leopard populations and we're very confident that these numbers are sustainable. Wouldn't that be great to be able to just answer those questions so that everybody agrees? Oh yeah, you're right. There's enough leopards, we can harvest a certain amount of them without a problem. That would be a good outcome for everybody, I think. So that's where it came from. So I would love to see the next round of reviews of the CITES quotas which I don't know when that'll be that these countries can be very confident and say no. We feel like we have a good understanding and they do. I think they're very confident that their current level of harvest are sustainable. But then they'll have the peer reviewed data to sort of be. Prove that beyond any doubt. That's what I would. That's like an ideal outcome in my mind.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. So you did that for Botswana. Did you go somewhere else next? Have you done anything else in Africa?

[Chris Comer]

Right, we haven't, we haven't started yet. We're, it's, it's interesting. There's, there's so much inter interest across the region in, in doing this kind of work. For obvious reasons. You know, we're just trying to, it's. I can't do everything all at once. Um, but I think our next. Right now we're partnering with the Professional Hunters Hunting association of South Africa, so Faza foundation to do work in South Africa which is, you know. Yeah, South Africa is interesting.

[Mike Axelrod]

No leopard, no leopard export quota at all.

[Chris Comer]

That's right. I mean CITES allows it. There's a CITES quota for it. But the, the national government.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, that's correct. That's correct.

[Chris Comer]

And so that's a good one. I mean that's one where we feel like we can make a real difference. And it, yeah, it's based on this idea that they don't have the, the information required to say that their populations are stable or, or sustainable.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. DFFE has said.

[Chris Comer]

Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

We don't have the data so we don't feel comfortable exporting leopard quota because we don't know how many leopards we actually have.

[Chris Comer]

Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

Which is fair enough.

[Chris Comer]

Right. Okay. Yeah. Use ase. Okay. Now that of course on the counter.

[Mike Axelrod]

You hear of, you know, anecdotal evidence.

[Chris Comer]

That's right.

[Mike Axelrod]

Of, you know, hundreds of leopards being killed.

[Chris Comer]

That's right.

[Mike Axelrod]

In, in one region.

[Chris Comer]

Right, right. So if you go to talk to the guys on the ground, they'll say, oh, there's leopards everywhere out here. Right. Yeah. So that's one. And then we've, we've been working with the, the national government and operators in Mozambique to see if we can get something started in Mozambique and other country where they, there's large swaths of that country where they have pretty limited information. The Niasa Preserve that you mentioned being maybe an exception. And then right now Zambia is a country that we're looking at and we've also met with, with the, with ZIM Parks, Zimbabwe Parks and Wildlife Management Authority. So if I had to guess, I would say our next. Well, I know South Africa is going to start very soon and then my guess would be Zambia will be the next place we'll really get rolling.

[Mike Axelrod]

So it sounds like you need 10,000 cameras.

[Chris Comer]

Correct. And any and, and several dozen people that we can put on the ground doing this work.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Any camera companies out there need to sponsor SCI Foundation 10,000.

[Chris Comer]

I think that would be a great investment on their part.

[Mike Axelrod]

I like it, I like it. Any. Are there any other like. Because obviously that takes up a lot of your time, man. That, that carnivore, the carnivore, stuff like that is. That's two full time jobs right there.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

In terms of your investment conservation, is there any other thoughts to other places that you guys are wanting to invest in or is that just like. Okay, look, we're, we're going to be singularly focused for you know, next five, five, ten years really on carnivores to really make a dent in the data acquisition space?

[Chris Comer]

No, we've got lots of irons in the fire. So what one. It's not a new thing you're familiar with African Wildlife Consultative Forum. That's one of our things. It's a conference we hold every year in Africa and we Want to keep doing that. Of course, we want to expand that. We've got a relationship we're developing with the Southern African Development Community, the sadic, which it's sort of a regional geopolitical group of countries that, you know, worked. They work together in all kinds of different spaces, including conservation space. So we're doing a partnership with them to work on all these international stuff. I think that will sort of raise the impact of the awcf, which is fantastic. We've got a. We're just in the initial stages of developing a sort of region wide anti poaching program focused on large landscapes. We just hired somebody, Dries Van Collar, to sort of run that program.

[Mike Axelrod]

What will that look like?

[Chris Comer]

That's the, the concept is. And we'll be putting out some, some stuff about this. But the concept is rather than a strict sort of law enforcement approach, which is that's been sort of the default for a long time, is, you know, you think of poaching as law enforcement. We need to get rangers with guns out on the, on the landscape. And that's a component of it. But the idea is to coordinate all the different stakeholders and detach that to some iconic landscape. Like, you know, we've got several examples this and we haven't decided where we're going to go, but like the Salou Game Reserve in Tanzania or the Okavango Delta and Botswana or Etosha region in Navy, right. These are all sort of internationally recognized biodiversity, important biodiversity areas. But to, to not. Rather than just sort of buying uniforms and guns for people to, to get the communities, the government and the operators all. And in these areas where hunting concessions are part of that conservation landscape which they are in almost all of them in Africa, right. To, to work together and address some of the underlying root causes of, of.

[Mike Axelrod]

Why people are having to poach.

[Chris Comer]

Why are they engaging in this? Right, so it's, it's, you know, things like, like widespread poverty and food security and sort of a disenfranchisement. Right of the local people from the conservation efforts. And there's been a lot of international attention, this idea of fortress conservation. And are we excluding local and indigenous people from the conservation process? So how can we bring them all together to coordinate these efforts, make the local folks feel like they're part of that process and they're getting some value from what's happening. And hunting is a great way to do that, as we both know. So it's a challenge, right? This is, this is not going to be easy, but to get. And we Feel like our relationship as SCI and SCIF with the, the hunting operators in particular, where we can go to them and we have a good relationship with them, well, they can feel like, oh, this is not a threatening thing to me. Right. I can be a part of this process. It's going to benefit me in the long run. So the idea is, is to take these iconic landscapes and using hunting as one of the tools to conserve those landscapes long term, like, well, in perpetuity is what we'd love to see. Right. So it's called the make sure I'm going to get it right Anti Potioning and Landscape Protection strategy or the ALPS program. So, so Drees is right in the, in the midst of developing that right now. He's actually surveying some of the larger operators in the region in some of these iconic locations about kind of what their needs are and what are they, what are they doing for anti poaching activity right now, stuff like that. So I'm, I'm quite excited about this. Got huge potential, I think, to, to, to make a difference in the anti poaching field. Cause that's a challenge. It's a, like an inexhaustible thing, right? You can keep putting money into anti poaching and if you don't address those root causes, it never goes away. Right. You catch one guy and the next guy, you know, the guy next door is going to be the next one in your area.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally agree, totally agree. Chris, before you arrived on the scene at scif, was there a very clear direction of like conservation implementation?

[Chris Comer]

I mean there's certainly conservation there, there was a clear direction, but my, we were a grant making organization at that point. So we would basically solicit project proposals and then would give money and they were worthy projects. And that, that's, you know, it's, that was it. We did a lot of good things through that program. So we're supporting a lot of great projects to gather data. The hard part of that is when you, you know, we're entirely privately funded. All of our, literally every dollar that we spent comes from private donations of people, obviously hunters mostly and SCI members overwhelmingly that care about what we do and want to support it. And they, they donate their resources to support that. And so we want to be able to tell them very specifically, here's what we're doing with the money that you're putting in there. Here are the projects that we are pushing forward and that that's easier to do when you have some very well defined areas that you're trying to work in. And so that, that's been kind of my mission since I started was to identify these focus areas and really develop some expertise and impact in these specific areas. So I don't want to say we weren't doing good things, because we were. It's just, it was not.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's now more focused, More focused with, you know, specific objectives in mind, you know, all pulling in the same direction.

[Chris Comer]

Precisely. Yeah. And it's been, I mean, the response has been very positive. People seem to, I think we're, we're developing a reputation in that particular. Like the one I've been most familiar with is the leopard work. We're developing relationships in that space where people recognize that we're doing good work and, and all that kind of stuff, which is very gratifying.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, I think, you know, unfortunately, based on, you know, the organization you represent and hunting being involved, you've almost got a higher bar, a higher standard to meet. Right. Your scientific methodology needs to be airtight and 100% everything needs to be sort of. Not that, that it wouldn't be, but it has to be a way above what you. Typically, a scientist is going to be like, okay, this is good enough because.

[Chris Comer]

You know, somebody's going to go through it, right? And try to.

[Mike Axelrod]

Somebody's going to pick a hole. Yeah, they're going to pick it and they're going to put a hole in it. And they're like, ah, you didn't do it this way, you should have done it that way.

[Chris Comer]

It's interesting, and I don't say this necessarily to the, to, to all the SEO people, but in a way you mentioned, what if we come up with a result where we say we shouldn't, we shouldn't hunt? That was sort of early in our conversation in a way that would be really useful reputationally. And then we're gonna say, look, we don't always say we should hunt here. We decided this wasn't appropriate and here's how we're gonna address it. That would be, that should be a good thing in a lot of ways.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, no, totally agree, totally agree. No, it would certainly give, you know, a side of you to show that we're not biased, that we're just letting the science and the data speak for itself.

[Chris Comer]

Although some of the folks out there. Doesn't matter what you do, they're still gonna.

[Mike Axelrod]

It is what it is, is what it is. Chris, where can people find more information on these projects like they're interested in? You know, maybe following up, reading a little bit more about it.

[Chris Comer]

Sure. We're so, we've got, of course we're active on all the social media. We got a Facebook page and Instagram and all that stuff. And then the SEI foundation website is a, you know, that's, that's where the, the holding place for all this work and, and has my contact information and all that kind of stuff on it. So that's, that's probably a good place to start.

[Mike Axelrod]

Awesome. Awesome. Well, if you find anything interesting, you know, anything comes out of any of your, your pieces of research or science, know that this platform is always open to you.

[Chris Comer]

We will, we will revisit and give some details on some cool projects.

[Mike Axelrod]

Next time we invite Maria, but she'll dominate the conversation. She's, she's, she's quite passionate about. Passionate. But we love you. We love you, Maria. Yeah. Thank you, Chris. I really appreciate your time, man.

[Chris Comer]

Well, my pleasure. And it's, it's great to talk with you all the time.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, that's it for today. Appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.