Episode 568 - Therese Marie Becker || A French Perspective On Hunting

Summary

Blood Origins Podcast Summary
Episode 568: Therese Marie Becker || A French Perspective On Hunting
Release Date: June 17, 2025
Host: Mike Axelrod
Guest: Therese Marie Becker

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1. Introduction

In Episode 568 of Blood Origins, host Mike Axelrod welcomes Therese Marie Becker, a seasoned hunter from Belgium currently residing in Southeast France. Therese, affectionately referred to as "T" by Mike, brings a wealth of knowledge on hunting, conservation, and the nuanced perspectives within the European context. The conversation delves deep into the challenges and misconceptions surrounding hunting, especially from a non-English speaking perspective.

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2. Therese's Background and Hunting in France

Timestamp: [10:43]

Therese begins by sharing her origins from Diarden, a southern region in Belgium, and her relocation to Southeast France. She highlights the geographical proximity of Belgium to neighboring countries like Luxembourg and the Netherlands, emphasizing the cultural interconnectivity in Western Europe.

Therese Marie Becker [10:43]: "I'm originally from Diarden. So it's the southern part of Belgium... It's a very small country, bigger than Luxembourg and the Netherlands."

She discusses acquiring her hunting license in France, noting the differences in hunting education and regulation between Belgium and France.

Therese Marie Becker [15:05]: "It's much more pushed in Belgium than it is. In France, you have theoretical courses and practical courses, but it's a different dynamic."

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3. Public Perception and Misconceptions about Hunting

Timestamp: [24:05]

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the public's perception of hunting. Therese cites a study conducted by Ipsos, revealing that 89% of French people view hunting negatively, associating it with security issues and concerns for walkers.

Therese Marie Becker [24:13]: "89% of the French perceive hunting as striking problems for security, problems for walkers."

She argues that these misconceptions stem from a lack of understanding of what hunting truly entails beyond the act of killing an animal.

Therese Marie Becker [24:17]: "There is a clear misunderstanding of what hunting is and does and why it's there."

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4. Hunting Regulations in France and Belgium

Timestamp: [15:12]

Therese contrasts the hunting regulations in France and Belgium, highlighting the structured approach in Belgium that requires hunters to demonstrate proficiency by hitting targets, whereas France emphasizes understanding security aspects.

Therese Marie Becker [15:12]: "In Belgium, you're required to hit targets. In France, you are required to understand security more than hitting targets."

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5. The Role of Hunting Federations

Timestamp: [17:07]

The conversation shifts to the importance of hunting federations in France, which serve as intermediaries between hunters and the government. These federations play a crucial role in wildlife management, conflict resolution with farmers, and countering misinformation from animal activists.

Therese Marie Becker [17:07]: "The Hunting Federation in France helps with discussions with the government and animal activists, re-articulating ideas and thoughts."

Mike adds that similar functions are akin to wildlife services in the United States, emphasizing the federations' role in managing human-wildlife conflicts.

Mike Axelrod [17:16]: "They were working with the Hunters Federation, but they are not the Hunters Federation. It's the ONF that gives your license."

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6. Communication Challenges and Strategies

Timestamp: [35:40]

A critical theme of the episode is the communication gap between hunters and the general public. Therese attributes part of the misunderstanding to cultural factors, such as satire from popular comedy groups that have perpetuated negative stereotypes of hunters.

Therese Marie Becker [35:42]: "Les Enquanli made fun of hunters, and the satire was taken at face value, creating a biased narrative over the years."

Mike concurs, noting that hunters have not effectively communicated the broader aspects of hunting beyond the act of killing.

Mike Axelrod [41:30]: "Hunters have not championed the whole 99% narrative... We've just focused on that 1%."

Therese suggests leveraging modern communication tools and storytelling to bridge this gap, emphasizing the importance of showcasing the conservation and habitat management aspects of hunting.

Therese Marie Becker [49:14]: "We need to establish truth where there is misunderstanding without being confrontational... showcasing the beauty and the great effort in conservation."

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7. Conservation and Wildlife Management

Timestamp: [28:37]

Therese and Mike discuss the role of hunting in conservation, citing examples like population management of species such as whitetail deer. Therese explains how hunting helps maintain ecological balance, especially in regions where urban expansion reduces natural habitats.

Therese Marie Becker [28:37]: "We are protecting species, we are protecting environments, we are growing things, we are leaving a legacy."

Mike adds that hunting helps control overpopulated species, preventing issues like disease spread and habitat destruction.

Mike Axelrod [32:20]: "Nature becomes better because of this action... especially in a world of pressure coming on those habitats constantly."

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8. The Impact of Media and Stereotypes

Timestamp: [35:40]

The episode delves into how media portrayal and societal stereotypes have negatively impacted hunting's image. Therese highlights the long-lasting effects of satirical portrayals that have ingrained misconceptions in the public psyche.

Therese Marie Becker [35:40]: "Hunting has been depicted in a biased way, making it hard for people to understand its true purpose and benefits."

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9. Personal Insights and Future Directions

Timestamp: [52:02]

In discussing ways to improve the perception of hunting, Therese emphasizes the importance of role-model behavior and responsible storytelling. She advocates for hunters to lead by example in their personal lives and utilize social media responsibly to educate and inform.

Therese Marie Becker [52:03]: "We are all equipped with a super powerful tiny little camera... establish truth where there is misunderstanding without being confrontational."

Mike echoes these sentiments, stressing the need for hunters to be confident and articulate in sharing the positive impacts of their activities.

Mike Axelrod [56:04]: "Hunters are waking up to the idea of doing all of these kinds of things and the support that we receive and what we do comes from all corners of the world."

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10. Conclusion

The episode concludes with reflections on the importance of building understanding and shifting narratives around hunting. Both Mike and Therese express optimism about the gradual change in perception, driven by effective communication and showcasing the conservation efforts intertwined with hunting.

Mike Axelrod [61:35]: "Do what's right to convey the truth around hunting."

Therese adds a personal touch by sharing her connection with fellow enthusiasts and the collaborative spirit necessary for advancing the cause.

Therese Marie Becker [61:21]: "When similar interests collide, people can only keep on talking... it's been a friendship that has now been lasting for the last four or five years."

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Key Takeaways:

• Misconceptions: There is a significant gap between the public's perception of hunting and its actual role in conservation and wildlife management.
• Communication: Effective storytelling and modern communication tools are essential in bridging the understanding gap.
• Regulations and Education: European countries like Belgium and France have structured hunting education and regulations that contribute to responsible hunting practices.
• Conservation Efforts: Hunting plays a crucial role in maintaining ecological balance, managing overpopulated species, and funding conservation programs.
• Cultural Influence: Media portrayals and cultural stereotypes have historically shaped negative perceptions of hunters, necessitating proactive efforts to change the narrative.

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This summary provides a comprehensive overview of the insightful discussion between Mike Axelrod and Therese Marie Becker, highlighting the complexities and responsibilities associated with hunting and conservation.

Transcript

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[Mike Axelrod]

Midway USA.com Therese Marie Becker, or T as she tells me to call her, is a hunter out of Belgium. She currently lives in Southeast France and first and foremost she does a freaking amazing, amazing podcast as English as her second language. If you had to put me in the same scenario, turn it around and force me to talk French, it would have been terrible. Therese came to me by a friend of ours, Manny, out of the UK and I just didn't know what this conversation was going to yield. You just never know what happens when you talk to somebody for the first time. And so T is into overlanding, she's obviously into hunting, she's got a bunch of coaching type businesses when it comes to marketing. But very quickly, as you'll find out on this podcast, has a very astute understanding and knowledge of hunting and the issues around hunting, especially from a European context. And so we just run down a rabbit hole for the next hour and it is fantastic. It's a scenario that will resonate with you regardless of where you are in this world. New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, America. The issues are the same and that's why the voice of Blood Origins, the Origins foundation is becoming so valuable in that everyone is facing the same issue and the solution is what we are bringing. So enjoy. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting. It brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals. How do I start it?

[Therese Marie Becker]

Brittany My name? Does my hair look okay?

[Mike Axelrod]

My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter. Have conversations with people about the things you love, right?

[Therese Marie Becker]

It is.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's the beautiful thing about podcasts that is true.

[Therese Marie Becker]

It's thoroughly enjoying. What are you drinking?

[Mike Axelrod]

I'm having tea, black coffee.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Oh, I'm having an infusion with the, I think red berries.

[Mike Axelrod]

Infusion of red berries for any particular reason taste probably the best thing for why you want to do something because it tastes good, not because it's helps with your joints or helps with your eyesight or helps you see animals better in the dark?

[Therese Marie Becker]

No, I just really enjoy red berries.

[Mike Axelrod]

What? Red berries. What. What is that? Is that a fruit? Something out of the woods?

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yeah, it's just a mix of fruits. So I think it's raspberries, strawberries, other berries that are red.

[Mike Axelrod]

Just red berries.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Just red berries.

[Mike Axelrod]

And did you part, given the, the topic of our conversation, did you harvest any of these red berries yourself or did you purchase them from the grocery store?

[Therese Marie Becker]

Oh, I, I didn't. They are purchased because first of all, it's not the season, so better to actually have dried, dried leaves, dried fruits. And the second thing is that where I'm based in France, it's really, really, really, really dry and really warm in the summer. So it's. And I'm, I'm really often away, so it's tricky to just grow things and make sure that they don't die, specifically raspberries, for example.

[Mike Axelrod]

Are you saying you don't have a green thumb?

[Therese Marie Becker]

I do, I do, actually, I do, but it's. I'm so often away and it's so, so dry here that it's a bit of a. It's not really compatible because I would need to water it every single day. But if I'm rovering, land rovering somewhere in, in the remote, I don't know, in. In Eastern Europe, for example, I cannot water the salads.

[Mike Axelrod]

Very true, very true. Does France have natural berries? Like, do you have natural berries? I think blackberries for sure. Right. Because I've seen. I think I've even walked through some BlackBerry briars in France. Do they have any other natural berries occurring in the forests?

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yes, actually, the majority of plants that are in France and in a lot of Western Europe are actually edible. So unless there is a couple of. There's a couple of big plants that you just happen to know that are just like do not touch, do not eat. But other than that, we have a lot of berries. My favorites are the tiny forest strawberries. They're super small. They are probably as thick as the end of your pinky. And they grow very low in various forests of Western Europe and in Eastern Europe as well. We've got some. I don't know how it's called. It's a plant that is full of vitamin C. It's red again.

[Mike Axelrod]

Is it rose hips?

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yes, it is. When we were.

[Mike Axelrod]

See, I can read your mind.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Look at that. With about I don't know how many miles separating us.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. And you were just generally randomly. Because we have the same thing here. We have rose hips here.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

High in vitamin C. A lot of people gather them and whatnot.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yeah. But when I grew up at school, they would tell us that they were toxic. So I grew up being afraid of wanting to play with those little berries because when you pick them, they become really, really, really hard. So you would be able to just throw them with people. And it was really fun. But I had been told that it was toxic. So it was a nice discovery. A couple of years later to realize it wasn't.

[Mike Axelrod]

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[Therese Marie Becker]

In Belgium.

[Mike Axelrod]

In Belgium? Where in Belgium?

[Therese Marie Becker]

So I'm originally from Diarden. So it's the southern part of Belgium.

[Mike Axelrod]

Isn't that like the, isn't that the corner? Belgium, Holland, Germany? Like everybody is together.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yeah, we are. It's, it's a very small country. It's, it's bigger than Luxembourg and it's bigger than the Netherlands. But Belgium is that little country that is shaped like a little man wearing a backpack. And so where I am from. Is the foot of Belgium. So basically it's the southern part of Belgium. And it was about. We were about two hours from the Luxembourg area, which is another country. So it's not Belgium. We did have an air. Well, we do have an area in Belgium called Provence du Luxembourg, which is the province of Luxembourg that stays apart from the middle age. But that's not Luxembourg, that's effectively Belgium.

[Mike Axelrod]

I remember being in Maastricht.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

In Holland and thinking it was the coolest thing in the world that I rode my bicycle from Holland into Belgium, into Germany, back into Holland.

[Therese Marie Becker]

It's a solid little trip. But yes, it is. We are pretty. Pretty blessed with that in. In Western Europe because the countries are rather small and they are. So. They have such a strong heritage that you can be in southern Belgium in the morning, northern Belgium in the afternoon, and then have dinner in the Netherlands in the evening.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, we drove last year, middle of May, we drove out of Paris into. Gosh, I can't even remember the town now in Belgium. But we were in southern Belgium. I'll have to remind. I'll have to. I'll have to look it up as we're talking. But we went and did a project that we've just finished production on, which is only. It's probably only going to release, I would say this time next year we want to come to the. There's like a big hunting fair hunting convention in Paris. Yes, there is Paris or something like that. And we did a project called. And my French people who listen to this are going to kill me because they've been giving me French lessons. So I'm going to try and get it right. Savant. Bon bon. Bamboo Sauvant. See, I'm messing it up again. Sauvant. Bomby. I want to say Bambi constantly. And they're like, no, Robbie. Got to get it right. So saving Bambi and was absolutely. I can't even remember the town. We were. We were in such a tiny little town. We drove into this little cabin in the middle of nowhere, met a guy, William Rentians, and we went and had dinner at a little. Another little town. It was. It was just awesome.

[Therese Marie Becker]

So.

[Mike Axelrod]

The concept was really the idea that hunting organizations and hunters are saving Bambi every year from middle of May to the middle of June.

[Therese Marie Becker]

That's right.

[Mike Axelrod]

Know this?

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yep. Very nice.

[Mike Axelrod]

Everyone is, you know, the hunters know of the project extremely well, but nobody outside the hunting community. Again, that's the reason why I exist is nobody outside the hunting community knows.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

That story. Such A cool story.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Well, in Belgium, as you know, probably they have initiatives that are basically people.

[Mike Axelrod]

That you can organization called Savant Savon Bambi.

[Therese Marie Becker]

And it's just so fantastic because. Well, we knew about it.

[Mike Axelrod]

We actually gave Savon Bambi. We paid for all of the administrative and support funding last year through Blood Origins paid for a drone, we bought a drone. We did everything.

[Therese Marie Becker]

You know, the first time I heard about Sauvant Bomby, because I'm Belgian, but I did my license in France because I'm based in France.

[Mike Axelrod]

What license? Your hunting license?

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yes, my hunting license. Because here you need. I don't know how it is in the US but you need a hunting license if you want to be legally hunting.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah. Same in the States. Yeah. You have to do your hunter's education here in the United States. Same thing in France.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yes. So it's much more pushed in Belgium than it is. It is in France. It's not pushed in the sense that the content is more complete. It's just a different dynamic. So in France you have got theoretical courses and practical courses in Belgium as well. In Belgium you're required to hit targets. In France, you are required to understand security more than hitting targets, for example. So it's just a bit of a different approach.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. In America we do not have any shooting requirements at all. It's just a practical test that you do on a state level. The Typically the game agency. So it's the environmental agency of the state that looks after the game resources are the ones who put on the hunter education classes. And then you go out. I think you shoot a two. Two. But that's mainly just to understand mechanics of shooting. Yeah. It's not a proficiency exam at all.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Understood. Interesting. The. Yeah. In France it's different because. Well, the country is big and the.

[Mike Axelrod]

Huge you guys have got like there's so many hunting federations. Yeah, little hunting federations. It's crazy.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yes. The organization of the hunting federation is so important because it's basically. It's a way, for example, to protect the. How do you say that in English? Well, to protect. To protect hunters. To protect hunting. But it's also a way of actually working in very close collaboration with farmers and the people in the world of agriculture, simply because there is no one else than the hunters who fund the damage caused by wildlife on fields, for example.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. You're bringing up something that was also very astounding to me in that the hunting federation that we were with north of Paris.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Was a small hunting federation, wasn't you? Know had 20,000 hunters in the Federation, had 26 full time people working for them. And outside of the hunting season they literally, their jobs were human, wildlife, conflict, injured animals working with farmers. Yes, it was, it was almost like again akin to wildlife services here in America. That's a government led organization there. It was led by hunters, paid for by hunters.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yeah, it's the Federation of Hunters in France is so important because it helps with the discussions that are happening whether it's with the government or also with the animal activist. Because there is a lot of very difficult conversation that I'm sure are happening in the US as well by well, conversation, let's say unilateral message sent out by animal like activists towards an audience that is not particularly educated on the topic of hunting. Meaning that there is false information going through. So yeah, the Hunters Federation of France is really, really, really present in re articulating ideas and thoughts, also functioning. But also is important in the management for the wildlife simply because as you know, we don't start hunting just by just pulling the trigger and that's. That's it. But yes, it's not governmental. The only thing that's governmental is the Organization Nationale de Fort, the onf. And that has, is working that those guys are working with the Hunters Federation, but they are not the Hunters Federation, it's the ONF that, that gives your license. Gonna try and find mine.

[Mike Axelrod]

Because it's. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know what you mean.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Really well it's actually very clear. Um, so on the. It's not onf, it's Officie Francaise de la Bierre Diversity. They rename, they rename themselves every couple of years. So ofb, that's the, that's the name and, and then they are, they are the one giving you your card that gets you.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, gives you the right putting all. Well done putting your fingers in front of all your information.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Not desiring to have other people take my little card. But yeah, it's completely different because those guys are not the hunters. So it's, it's important to understand that the Federation, the Hunting federation is really making that bridge between the hunters and the government because the only three is the government and the hunters are the hunters.

[Mike Axelrod]

Nice, nice. Yeah that, you know, that's the whole point of why we exist is to push a narrative into not against the anti hunters really because you're not going to. There's 10% of the people in this world that you're never going to change their minds. Okay. And it's funny, in the last couple of weeks. Some of the interactions that we've had online has really even more cemented in my brain this idea that there are certain people in this world that value animals more than humans.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, that's it.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

And it's funny where in, you know, you read these comments about. And one of them, which is absolutely tragic and awful is the. We've had an instance of terrorism occur in Northern Mozambique. I don't know if you've heard of it or not, but there's been some so anti trophy hunting people celebrating this and saying, oh, it's a reprieve for animals because hunters can't come in there. But the actual like consequence of this action of people being beheaded.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Communities being, you know, losing their livelihoods, people losing their jobs and whatnot. And you get this thread of people saying, oh, good thing, they should have. And then I saw another post of. It was a meme of a judge and jury mixed between animals and people and the animals, as the jury to the people said in this meme, because of your out of control population, you need to cull yourselves by 15%. And the thing was, it was posted by an ant, obviously an animal rights organization. And they were like, what do you think we should do? Should we call 15% of the people of this world? And people in on the comments were like, no, 85%, 95% whatnot. And I stopped myself from commenting because it would draw unwelcome attention. But my comment would have been, if you think this is a great idea. Okay, let's start with you. It's very much because you're part of the human population. Right. You're part of this human population and you're suggesting that there is a need to reduce them. So you're making a choice on who.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

And more likely what you're going to be choosing is the poorest of the poor that are sitting at the front lines of. Of wildlife. Human. Human wildlife conflict. Not the people that are sitting in, you know, an apartment in Paris. Since we're. You're from France. That.

[Therese Marie Becker]

From Belgium. Peasants.

[Mike Axelrod]

Excuse me, from Belgium or somebody sitting in Brussels. Somebody sitting in Brussels. I didn't know that there was such an animosity between French and Belgium.

[Therese Marie Becker]

No, we don't have an animosity. We just like things to be right.

[Mike Axelrod]

Understood. Understood.

[Therese Marie Becker]

I'm just teasing. I'm just teasing.

[Mike Axelrod]

I'm teasing you back. And it's just like it's craziness. It's craziness that this person thinks I'm going to advocate for the, you know, reduction of human population. But it's not me. No, don't target me.

[Therese Marie Becker]

No.

[Mike Axelrod]

Somebody else needs to be targeted.

[Therese Marie Becker]

It's always striking questions for me because obviously the world of hunting is very different in Western Europe than it is in Eastern Europe, than it is in the US Than it is in Africa, simply because of the size of territories for animals. So if we're talking very simply on the topic of whether it's relevant or not still to this day, because, for example, in France today, um, one person out of five is for hunting. So for the practice, four out of five people are against the pri. The practice of hunting. So it's as the latest.

[Mike Axelrod]

But in what, in what, in what form, shape or form is that. Was that survey numbers? Done any hunting? Not just meat, hunting management, hunting?

[Therese Marie Becker]

No, it's basically one. So 89% of French people are. So it's a. It's a study made, that was a. Conducted by ipsos, which is an organization, an organism that basically, basically does data gathering. And long story short, what the result was is that 89% of the French in France perceive hunting as striking problems for security, problems for walkers. So that's the first thing, which is it's absolutely bonkers when we actually know how, well, effectively hunting happens in France on. During weekends or during the week, or how it's. How it's organized in terms of practicalities when you go out to hunt. And then the second thing is that we actually have one in five people in France that is for huntings, and the rest is just against it for whatever reason. So it's referring to what you were saying regarding people saying, oh, you know, we should decrease population, et cetera. And if we make a bridge with this study, what we can see is that there is a clear misunderstanding of first, what hunting is and does and why it's there, but also that there is a clear misunderstanding of the concept of, well, violence, because hunting is, in the end, it's literally finishing an animal, it's killing an animal, but on the other. So that's an. That's a. That's a violent act in, in the sense that you take life away from something. So that means. And that implies that if you're an educated adult or educated individual, that comes with a great responsibility. So you don't take something away without bringing something more to the table or organizing something to be better. And we have a responsibility for this. So why I was talking about Europe is because the territories are so much smaller. If we're talking about the Place that an animal has in history, has had in history over an area, it just keeps on reducing. Because in Europe, what we have is small territories because of the size of the countries. So that's the first thing. The size of the country is effectively small. The second thing is that we've got a growing number of population. That's a whole different topic. But realistically speaking, there's just more people in smaller places. So that means more people per square kilometer. That means if there's more humans, there is more inhabited for humans, which means houses, buildings, et cetera, which also means less space for animals. And you know as good as I do that animals have got roots that's literally written encrypted in their DNA, whether we like it or not. That's why a pheasant will cross a road without realizing that he's crossing a road, because it's not supposed to have a road there because it's encrypted in his DNA. And we have a problem of allocation of resource not in terms of there is too much or not enough, but there is a lack of balance. So this is leading me to the point of we've got an expansion of cities, we've got a rural exodus, which means that you've got less people to take care of the environment. Not environment as the plants and making it look pretty, but rather the environment as how do we make this space in which we are living for a determined limited amount of time, how are we making sure that we take care of it so it is as good or better than we have found it for the next generation after us? This is so important because an expansion of cities means an expansion of city territory, which means that the natural habitat of wildlife in cities, I'm thinking very, very basic level. Pigeons, you know, all the small things, all the small feathers, but also bigger animals that are now causing problems. So we've got so many foxes that are spreading diseases and trashing bins and making cities really dirty. We're talking about boars that are just walking around in between quotations.

[Mike Axelrod]

Imagine, like downtown Rome, right? Or Milan or something like that.

[Therese Marie Becker]

And Italy is crazy between quotation marks, scaring people off in the back garden. The reality is not that those animals. It's not a question whether they have to be there or not, it's just whether how. Well, how do we articulate this? Because if they are there, there is probably a reason. Either there's food available, such as bears in Canada that are around cities because it's easy, but they also just have less Food and their environment, because their environment is just too small. So it's just a perpetual conversation, a perpetual discussion on how we actually take care of our environment to make sure that there is a balance between what we are taking as hunters and how we are ensuring that the populations that are there are remaining healthy. Because nobody wants a sick animal. Because a sick animal, wild animal, means risk for the agriculture that has got a dramatic impact on the food chain. As you know, we eat, we eat meat. That meat is coming from a cow or a pig. I personally would prefer to eat, I would prefer to eat game meat that has been running in the fields than pig that's been growing up in one state.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know where it came from, you know, potentially, if it was, you know, undertaken by you from a hunting perspective, you understood how it died, you understand where it died, you understand what I've.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Done with it, how it touched the.

[Mike Axelrod]

Meat, everything all about it.

[Therese Marie Becker]

And it's not been growing up in a 1 square meter box like, like the majority of pigs today are. That's one square meter is not out of thin air. It is effectively 1 square meter for a pig. So it brings that perspective back. It has a huge impact on absolutely everything. But the complexity is that the media is putting the spotlight on the wrong point of the discussion, which is whether it's good or not to kill. Where actually maybe we just need to take a step back and figure out how can we be a bit more logical with the food that we are eating.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, you're absolutely nailing it everywhere in the world. And I use this a lot and people, I use it and I use it a lot. And we say things often on repeat because we want people to be able to infuse it into their brains. And we want people to be able to articulate and we want people to be, have confidence in speaking about these kinds of things with others around dinner tables, bus stop, you know, you name it. But you know, people will say, and I use elephants as a good example because it's something that people are like, whoa, that's a big animal. It needs a lot of space. It needs a lot of things, right? Needs a lot of resources to it. 600, 800 kilograms of an, of vegetation a day to feed an elephant. Now people will say, oh, we've lost 90% of elephants in Africa. It's not untrue. Okay, but what are they basing that, that change from? They're basing that change from the 1500s where you potentially had 5 million elephants in Africa. Okay, not unrealistic. Because if you think back in the 1500s, how much space did you have potentially for elephants to roam between southern tip of southern Africa all the way up to Kenya, that whole area, And I said this on a podcast the other day, it was almost like we had pinpricks of humanity in that area. So we have the sea of habitat with pinpricks of humanity. Well, today we have a sea of humanity with pinpricks of habitat or islands of habitat.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Absolutely.

[Mike Axelrod]

And so you can't expect us to have 5 million elephants again.

[Therese Marie Becker]

No.

[Mike Axelrod]

You've got to come to the realization of, like, well, what is this number? Like, how many elephants can we have? And I believe we have the. Actually too many elephants right now. It's over. Just over half a million elephants, 500,000 elephants, I think. And that is, take in consideration overpopulated areas like Botswana and Zimbabwe. So I think we're at our capacity right now. Unless you explore places like Angola, you ex Congo Z. Those places that are really conflict areas that are, you know, very, very large countries, human population quite. Hasn't exploded yet. You have not. But, Therese, maybe it's an. An opportunity here to ask the question of you. Why are the people in Belgium and France not understanding this?

[Therese Marie Becker]

Because there's such a. This is actually a very good question because it's again, very misunderstood. There is that such a gap between the reality of hunting and. And what the common. Your average Joe is thinking about it. That is, it really makes me question how people live their life. Not. Not in a negative way when I'm saying this, but there is a couple of factors that have been impacting this. One of them is that there is in the beginning of the. Well, in the end of the years. 19, so 1990. Between 1990 and 2005, I can't remember exactly when it was. There is a group of people who do comedy, and it was the beginning of the booming of comedy on tv. And they're called Les Enquanli and they're very, very famous in France. They made a whole episode about the hunters, and they were just making. So making fun of the hunters. And it's true, the hunters in the late 1919, early 2000 often were matching the. Well, matching the stereotype. The stereotype that was in that video. And it was hilarious. And probably 90% of the people who have seen that video in France and Belgium are laughing about it. And it's a running gag still to this day. The problem is that it was also something that gained so much popularity that people who had never been in contact with hunting. Just took for face value. Even though it was a satire, it was taken for face value. I'm not saying that this is the reason why people are so against the practice today, but what I'm saying is that it has helped create a narrative that has been absolutely biased over the years. Additionally, the hyper, the concept, the context of hyper securing everything in Europe was very, very trendy and specifically in Belgium and in France since the beginning of this century that it has secured.

[Mike Axelrod]

What do you mean, hyper securing?

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yeah, hyper securing. So for example, when I grew up, you would have played Belgians in Belgium, visiting France. You would have playgrounds that would be considered today dangerous for children because they had no side rails and they had no extra security rope and they had no indication on how to safely use the playground. Fast forward. So I'm the eldest of a family of five children. My last brother grew up on playgrounds that's had all those little sign posts and signboards stating, be careful, watch out, it's dangerous. Do not, you know, don't jam your fingers, whatever. So that's what I mean by hyper. Well, not. It's hyper safety, basically. So it's making the person not responsible for its own self in an environment. It is basically stating, be careful, don't do this because this is dangerous for every. Any person that has been traveling to Paris and has taken the metro. So the underground or the tube, they will see a little sticker on the doors of the metro or the underground. That's a little rabbit and it says something in the lines of careful, don't put your hands in the door when it closes because you'll jam your fingers. This is a little bit silly because any sane individual would be mindful of an opening of a door because they know that it's.

[Mike Axelrod]

And if you did get your fingers stuck, you'd learn. It would be a lesson learned, right? Oh, I'm not going to do that again.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Exactly. So if we make a. If we take this parallel and align it with hunting, there is a couple of things that have happened. First of all, hunting involves gun. Okay, that is true. But you also have got bow and arrow. So arabalette, I don't know how it's called. It's a horizontal bow and arrow.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, crossbow.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Crossbow.

[Mike Axelrod]

Nice. See?

[Therese Marie Becker]

Learning every day.

[Mike Axelrod]

Teaching French. I'm teaching you English, you're teaching me French.

[Therese Marie Becker]

We're a pair. This is great.

[Mike Axelrod]

There we go.

[Therese Marie Becker]

And so what has happened is that there has been a big dissociation between the element of risk on one side and the element of danger. So risk management and dangers have been put in the same bag. The second thing is that there's been that element of oh, Bambi, beautiful, beautiful movie from Disney. It's so tragic. He loses his dad, you know, needs to grow up with a single mother, whatever. Nobody wanted to kill Bambi anymore. And then there is another thing, is that there is this dissociation between real life and between what hunting was. Because hunting is again, it's a lifestyle. Because it takes months, weeks, months, years sometimes to decide which animal we are going to be taking from a group. For what reason. You need to follow these animals, you need to track them. The effective killing of the animal is part of the job. But it's such a minimum, minimum. Like it's the smallest element. Actually there's the smallest action in, in the grand scheme of, of things. It's the smallest action.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's literally funny you say that. It's literally, you know, obviously we, we have to differentiate ourselves between hunting and hiking, right?

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

And the, and the differentiator is that we kill something. Okay. That is, we are seeking to kill something. That is the ultimate purpose of what.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Absolutely.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. And it's interesting in that there's sort of some philosophical, theological, sort of mind wrestles that you have to, that not many people undertake. I. E. In hunting, when you kill, it means it's the end of the activity. Which is both sad because you liked the activity, but is also happy because you accomplished the activity.

[Therese Marie Becker]

And it's a start of something else as well. Because I mean you finish an animal, then if you want to be logical, you need to honor the animal that you have taken. And the best way you can do that is by literally using every single part of that animal.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yep, I totally agree, totally agree. And so it's just, it's a, as you said, it's an unfortunately. And again, this is, I, I, I, I totally put the blame on us. Okay. From a hunting perspective, I totally do. In this scenario in which the general public has boiled down hunting to just that 1% of the hundred which is killing animal. And 99% of hunting, as you said, is everything else. Right. Looking after the animals habitat, you know, animal welfare is something that we should have a feather in our cap on. We should be yelling from the tops of the mountains of how we are probably the biggest proponents of animal welfare, I. E. We're looking after animals constantly. We're thinking about them the way that we kill them, the way that we practice to kill them, the way that we honor the animal. All these things are just like right up the alley of animal welfare, sort of check the box exercises. But I think again, going back to what I said, I think hunters are to blame. I think hunters have not championed this whole 99% narrative and here's why. Because 99% is not sexy. Well, to hunters, they want to see an animal killed, they want to see the animal dying, they want to see that because that's the thing that they love. That's the part of the activity. And yet. So we've just focused on that. We haven't focused on the other 99%.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Interesting. Very interesting take. I would absolutely agree with you on this. I would like to add that.

[Mike Axelrod]

Think about it. What magazines you pick up a hunting magazine. What do you see in a hunting magazine?

[Therese Marie Becker]

Well, you see, of course, what you have been hunting. Where I was going to go was that European hunts are very traditional, if we're talking about even how they came about and how it has happened. And so I think that there is also the fact that hunters do not focus on the communication of the 99%, not because it's not sexy, but because it's just requiring so much effort and implication and personal investment. So I would say that when we are talking about associations or groups that are animal activists, for example, they have entire organization of communication. So they've got communication studios, they have got communication guidelines. It's a very well articulated and well managed machine, which I would believe that the group of hunters would be able to actually learn a lot from. Because the communication aspect of thing is really well done on their side. On our side, what is happening is that we are so invested in our private life, in our work life and in our hunting life that it leaves very little time if we want to do things with great focus and attention to create a communication around all the 99%. Because often what is going to happen is that you'll go after your working hours, track that animal, or see a couple of groups that you've been spotting the previous season to see how it's been doing. And you will do that in a way that's literally either after work or that you'll take a day for it. But you won't think about the communication about this simply because you're so focused on the action itself, which is fantastic, because that means that it is effectively what's happening. And the other thing is that hunting is such a social aspect that if you are in the group, you will take part in that activity. So you will live it. And you won't need to explain it simply because you are taken in that activity. It is literally a lifestyle. I remember the hunters when I grew up, around my house, they would gather a Saturday morning, early morning, and you would have that. It's. It's beautiful. You would have the mist that's not. That's not raised yet. And it's very. There's an atmosphere that's just impossible to explain. And you sit there, you're sitting there with them and you just. You just take it in. So of course the hunter is a hunter. That's what they are. That's what he does. He's not a storyteller. And the reason why we see why not.

[Mike Axelrod]

He's supposed to be the best storyteller in the world.

[Therese Marie Becker]

He is around a campfire, but he's not a communicator in the sense that the only reason why you see a picture of a trophy is because that's the physical thing that can be shown afterwards. But realistically speaking, the rest is literally it's life. And before social media, you would have books about it, you would have maybe VHS for those who have known that, maybe you would have super aids and you would have writings about it, but you wouldn't have a whole depiction, a whole film made about it simply because you had the hunter that was hunting. And then every single person involved has a task. When you're running after an animal or when you are scouting something, or when you're observing something, there is no margin for noise because you are leaving the space for what is important, which is literally what's happening in front of you. And so, as hunters have now.

[Midway USA]

We.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Are graced with important duty of communication because we need to emphasize why it is important, how it makes a difference and make it feel closer to the people who are so disconnected from that world of the 99% what is happening behind the curtain. Luckily, communication is becoming easier these days. And then we've got people like you who do fantastic podcast, which is great because it allows that message to come across. But the individual hunter itself knows in himself that he has a duty and a responsibility of doing good and behaving following a certain unspoken guideline that comes naturally with the responsibility of killing an animal.

[Mike Axelrod]

I love the idea, I love the fact, I love that, that you've said that. It's. It's because everything is, you know, in the moment when we are obviously great storytellers around the campfire after the fact, but in the moment, we aren't storytellers because we are so engaged in it. Do you think, though, based on everything we've just said, this whole podcast, habitats changing people's changing attitudes, changing more people. Do we have to become. I know the answer. I know we have to become better communicators. I know it's like this. How do we do that? Like, how do you think we should do that? Like, I know I do. You know what we do every single day, we push narrative out, we build videos, we build documentaries. You know, we've got some strategic marketing strategies in which we can get messages into the general public, the non hunting majority, the four out of the five French people that do not agree with hunting.

[Therese Marie Becker]

It's a difficult question, but I believe that we can answer it if we take a step back and see things a bit bigger. Because we say always that words, actions speak louder than words. So that's one thing. Being examples in the way that we lead our personal life outside of hunting is very important because that will be the element that people will remember. It's how we make them feel and how we made them think rather than what we said. And then the second thing is that we are, we are all equipped with a super powerful tiny little camera in our hand that allows us to either do very good or do absolute great damage. And our responsibility is probably to, well, first of all, take it, take a responsibility and establish truth where there is misunderstanding without being confrontation. Because conflict is not necessary. And it's not a matter of being right or wrong, but it is a matter of kindly educating. And kindly educating doesn't mean being kind and being nice and being tolerant and letting things be said and letting be, you know, being trampled. It simply means that we are speaking in a way that there is sans qui voque. I don't know how to say that in English. It's basically that.

[Mike Axelrod]

I don't know how to say that in English either.

[Therese Marie Becker]

We cannot. Any person who has a desire to look into the topic will be able to understand and probably ally themselves at the cause. And this, the last thing I would say is the hunting discussion doesn't need to be a conflict at all. It needs to be talked about. It needs to be. The beauty needs to be shown. And getting people to understand that would probably be achieved by showcasing the beauty and the great effort. So not how hard we are working, but how beautiful. We are working to something that has got a bigger meaning than us. Because in the end, as that we are protecting, we are protecting species, we are protecting environments, we are growing things, we are leaving a legacy and the only way to leave a legacy is by doing good and true, using the beauty that it is in the future as well.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, we have some great things that we can hang our hats on. We've got some great things that we do for wildlife and habitat and whatnot. And I think we just need to start championing those messages more. Yeah, we just need it. And I think it comes again being people being confident and comfortable talking about it and having the information at their fingertips, information planted in their brain seed planted. You know, it's all just reiterative type of stuff. Like, oh, man, if I need just new, you know, how many rodeo in France and I can have a dinner conversation with someone going, we have. I'm gonna. I'm gonna use whitetails as an example. Let's use whitetails in the States. We have. Wow, we have 32 million whitetail in America. I didn't know we had that many. Oh, did you know that in 1900s, at the beginning of the turn of the century, there was only 300,000 whitetails? And they've grown to 32 million because of regulations, policies, hunters, but also, you know, obviously people looking after wildlife, looking after whitetails. But 6 million whitetail are taken every single year.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

And the population remains 32 million every single year.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Do you think that for people who are absolutely not familiar with the world of hunting, that numbers are actually saying anything?

[Mike Axelrod]

I think that simple statistics, simple facts around the natural world invokes curiosity of people that are may not. They don't have to be hunters to be curious about the natural world and how it works. I think everybody has a natural curiosity around it. So us as hunters, being able to impart knowledge on this curiosity.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

And how nature becomes better because of this action or this action. Or this action or this action. Especially in a world of pressure coming on those habitats constantly. It's such a good message.

[Therese Marie Becker]

It is, it is.

[Mike Axelrod]

And then you layer on top of that a human emotion of, you know, not that we. We certainly some people have, you know, have a range of emotions when it comes to being sad around animals being taken and whatnot. But you add those two elements. I think that's the most, again, the most powerful storytelling in the world.

[Therese Marie Becker]

It is a strong storytelling, for sure. It's very powerful. I'm always wondering how outside of numbers, we can communicate it more. Because, for example, if you're thinking about meat, meat in the supermarket, we don't talk about how much meat is being thrown away every single day in supermarket. Meat that is coming from Brazil that is coming from Eastern Europe. When the nation itself selling that meat is actually producing it and is actually exporting it because its own supermarket doesn't want to sell it. I'm wondering if we could with the help of huntings federation, hunters federation, orient the discussion towards also that part of things where we are lobbying for more local selected to meet. So either game, because there's new laws in Belgium that are coming that actually have been passed where it's easier for a hunter to sell its game to.

[Mike Axelrod]

Amazing.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Which is fantastic. It's beautiful. Same in France. There is the need of those initiatives to make it more, well, physical I would say for people who are not very mastermindable.

[Mike Axelrod]

Right. They understand it, they can see it, they can see it in the grocery stores. Oh, this is where this came from. Oh, there's a management element of it. Oh, we have too many of them. Oh, okay. Oh, it's really healthy for me. Oh, it's organic. Oh, it occurred. It came within a hundred kilometers of this area. The locavore movement. There are, there are communities out there that may not be hunting communities. No, especially the food and locavore like local community sourced kind of communities that I guarantee you, if you, if you polled those people, I reckon your statistics in France would flip flop to four out of five people saying I'm for hunting. Probably one out of five saying not probably.

[Therese Marie Becker]

The, the, the thing with hunting is, as we were saying earlier, people who are not hunters and who have no past or heritage in hunting can only imagine what it is. So they can't feel it or they can't experience it. And it's always a bit delicate to take a person on a hand simply because of. Well again, the great responsibility that comes with it because you want to introduce something, this practice safely to individuals but making them participate in that life with some, for example, actions such as wildlife spotting. How many roe deer did you spot on your drive today? And roughly in which area that would be making them take responsibility in something that is so far from their daily life. Even though maybe we will never use that data, but the data exists. That means such data that exists can always be used for whatever purpose. Maybe it won't be immediate as a result of, you know, does it actually mean anything, but it will get people in the mindset, I believe to be more inclined to understand what's happening outside of the hunting months of the year.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, you know, I think look, I'm a positive, look, outlook kind of guy and I think that, I think we've Already, we're already starting to see a tide change. I think hunters and the narrative around hunting. I think people are waking up to the idea of, like, oh, geez, we should be doing all of these kinds of things. And, you know, the support that we receive and what we do, you know, comes from all, all corners of the world now, which is quite amazing. And, you know, when I wake up in the morning and this phone is completely full of messages from all over the world, it blows my mind every single day, man. That is awesome. I'm so glad we got to meet you. You know, this is the kinds of conversations that we love. And you. You in the beginning of this podcast saying to me, like, what are we going to talk about, Robbie? Are we talking about over landing? Are we talking about land roving? Are we. Because those. That's my passion. I know that. And we'll have you back when to talk about that kind of stuff. But as soon as we started talking and you just run down a rabbit hole and you just never know where you end up, right? And here we are an hour later.

[Therese Marie Becker]

You're. You're great for that, Robbie. Thank you very much. You facilitated that a lot.

[Mike Axelrod]

I will end with. I'll end with this because this will just be a personal piece. How do you know Manny? So, Manny Manish Galalabi introduced us via email to get you on this podcast. And thank you, Manny. I really appreciate it. But how did you. How do you know, man? And does he send you as many memes as he sends you? Me?

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yes, I think that Manny, he's that friend. Manny is absolutely fantastic. Passionate. Passionate and vocal in the best possible way about the topic that we discussed today. And I believe that when similar interests collide, people can only keep on talking, basically. So we met because of similar interests. In 2019, I was driving from Singapore to London as part of an expedition called Glas Overland. He followed that expedition and then we started talking online because of land rovers initially. And then I kept on doing other projects involving land rovers and. And I. I realized that he was into hunting and he liked guns. And we had. You know, when you start to. Specifically on social media, when you start to exchange memes with people, you try and see how far you can go, like, what's the level or type of memes that are going to be okay or not. And it was quite fun because very quickly we realized that we had similar views and outlooks on hunting, overlanding, and the activities around that, and voila. It has been a friendship that has now been lasting. For the last, I think, four or five years.

[Mike Axelrod]

Have you met many?

[Therese Marie Becker]

We have an. Effectively met. We've talked a lot of times. We've got whole. Like, for example, we had a very long phone conversation the other day about habitat reduction and the problem that it causes for. For a wildlife. And that's one amongst many. And the thing that's really fun is that Duke Belton from the writer. I don't know how to pronounce his last name. I'm so sorry. Duke basically was in Atlanta and Manny was in Atlanta, and I knew both of them and I got them to meet in Atlanta.

[Mike Axelrod]

Who did you get to meet? Who did. Because I met Manny in Atlanta for the first time.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Doug or Doug D O U G. I don't know how to pronounce it in English.

[Mike Axelrod]

Doug.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

What's his last name?

[Therese Marie Becker]

And I. Let me just read it out to you because I don't want to butcher his name.

[Mike Axelrod]

Sure.

[Therese Marie Becker]

He's named Pelton P. Pelton.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. Doug Pelton.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

Outdoorsman's Classics or something like that is his Instagram handle.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Yes. And basically they were both in Atlanta. So I gotcha. I put them in touch and it. That thing led to an Instagram message.

[Mike Axelrod]

I'm sure. I'm sure. I can only imagine between the two of them. I'm a big fan of Doug as well. He wrote. He did a big piece on the elephant documentary we just released called the Fine Balance. Well, Theresa, I hope that we are going to. And I might have been butchering your name the entire time. I apologize.

[Therese Marie Becker]

Therese Marie.

[Mike Axelrod]

Therese Marie.

[Therese Marie Becker]

There you go.

[Mike Axelrod]

So I have been. So I have been. Next time I will not be. I want to say Therese. Therese Marie.

[Therese Marie Becker]

There you go.

[Mike Axelrod]

Thank you. I thoroughly enjoyed that. And yeah, if you want to discuss anything that comes across your plate that you think is controversial or you want to have an open discussion about it, you know how to get a hold of me now. And so let's just do it. Okay.

[Therese Marie Becker]

That's very kind, Robbie. Thank you so much.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening. As always. Leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.

[Fishing Booker]

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