Episode 572 - James Green || Wetlands, Ducks And United Kingdom

Summary

Podcast Summary: Blood Origins - Episode 572 with James Green

Title: Blood Origins: James Green || Wetlands, Ducks And United Kingdom
Host: Blood Origins Inc.
Release Date: July 3, 2025

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1. Introduction

In Episode 572 of Blood Origins, titled "James Green || Wetlands, Ducks And United Kingdom," host Mike Axelrod engages in an insightful conversation with James Green, the Head of Wildfowling and Wetlands at BASC (British Association for Shooting and Conservation). The episode delves into the intricate relationship between hunting, particularly wildfowling, and wetland conservation in the UK.

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2. Meet James Green and His Heritage

Mike Axelrod introduces James Green as someone deeply rooted in the hunting and conservation community. James hails from a lineage steeped in hunting traditions, being the son of Chris Green, famously known as the Cornish Countryman. Now a father of two, James embodies the continuity of family heritage in the outdoors.

James Green [03:01]: "I wouldn't say ecologist enthusiast."

3. The Importance of Wetlands and Wildfowling

The conversation emphasizes the critical role wetlands play in ecosystems. James articulates how wetlands, often misunderstood or undervalued, are vital for biodiversity, flood prevention, and carbon sequestration.

James Green [04:25]: "They're special places, aren't they?"

Mike relates his personal passion for swamps, sharing his transformative experience in the Okavango Delta that led him to pursue wetland ecology.

Mike Axelrod [04:02]: "And built 25 years of work in the wetland field and absolutely love swamps and what they do and how they function..."

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4. Historical Loss and Restoration of Wetlands

Both Mike and James recount the historical draining and loss of wetlands in the UK, mirroring similar trends in the United States. Post-World War II, the emphasis on agriculture led to significant wetland destruction, prioritizing food production over ecological balance.

James Green [06:12]: "Shortly after World War II, agriculture is really important. We need to feed the nation. So exactly the same thing."

James underscores the long-term repercussions of such actions and the ongoing efforts to restore wetlands, highlighting the slow but steady shift in conservation policies.

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5. Wildfowling vs. Waterfowling: A UK Perspective

The discussion clarifies the terminology differences between the UK and the US: what Americans refer to as waterfowling, the British term it wildfowling. James explains the nuances and historical context behind the term "wildfowling," emphasizing its broader implications beyond mere hunting.

James Green [13:02]: "I have no idea where this actually came from and that's slightly embarrassing, but in the UK it's been only two seconds... wildfowls are wild."

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6. Navigating UK Hunting Regulations and Conservation Goals

James highlights the complexities of UK hunting regulations, particularly how wetland designations impose rigid conservation objectives. These regulations often lag behind ecological changes, rendering them ineffective in addressing current environmental challenges.

James Green [28:55]: "We've got a brilliant data set in the UK... the problematic remains when we're trying to play God with something which we can't implement, the X never changes."

The frustration arises from the disconnect between longstanding regulations and the evolving ecological landscape, exacerbated by factors like climate change affecting migratory patterns.

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7. BASC’s Proactive Approach to Sustainable Shooting

To counter regulatory challenges, BASC undertook an extensive review of over 1,500 peer-reviewed scientific papers to assess the sustainability of hunting practices. This proactive approach led to the development of a Sustainable Shooting Code of Practice, encompassing principles like "eat what you shoot" and setting specific daily limits for various species.

James Green [43:43]: "We engaged with FACE... and we basically reviewed 1500-2000 peer reviewed scientific papers..."

This initiative positions BASC as a leader in integrating science with hunting practices, advocating for evidence-based conservation strategies.

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8. Integrating Science, Anecdotal Evidence, and Emotion in Conservation

Mike emphasizes the necessity of combining scientific data with anecdotal evidence and emotional narratives to create compelling conservation stories. James agrees, noting the recruitment of a dedicated social scientist within BASC to bolster this integrative approach.

Mike Axelrod [19:02]: "Science is the leg of the stool... anecdotal evidence and emotion."

James Green [21:05]: "That social science element is equally as important... we've just recently recruited a dedicated social scientist for that purpose."

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9. International Collaboration and Future Initiatives

James discusses BASC’s collaboration with the Waterfowls Network, spanning countries like Denmark, Ireland, Finland, Sweden, and Germany. These partnerships aim to synchronize conservation efforts across migratory flyways, addressing challenges like breeding population declines caused by factors beyond the UK’s control.

James Green [33:28]: "We started funding wetland creation initiatives within... it's part of the Socket program of wetlands."

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10. Personal Stories and the Legacy of Hunting

The episode concludes with James sharing personal anecdotes about his family’s involvement in hunting and conservation. He highlights the importance of passing down sustainable practices to the next generation, ensuring that hunting remains a tool for conservation rather than exploitation.

James Green [47:23]: "Absolutely. Yeah. No, so it's... it's embedded in my DNA..."

James also touches on ethical hunting practices, advocating for harvesting only what is needed and ensuring that game is utilized effectively.

James Green [52:09]: "Yes, crack on. So yes, I can sell wild ducks. Many of the wildfowling clubs, we go back to that self regulation."

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11. Conclusion: Building a Sustainable Future

Mike and James wrap up by reiterating the collective responsibility of hunters, conservationists, and policymakers to foster a sustainable environment. The conversation underscores the potential of self-regulation and evidence-based practices to bridge gaps between hunting and conservation.

James Green [50:38]: "If we aren't going to have a long term future, it requires everybody... to step up, adhere to simple principles..."

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Key Takeaways:

• Wetlands are Essential: Vital for biodiversity, flood control, and carbon storage, requiring dedicated conservation efforts.
• Self-Regulation is Crucial: Hunting communities like BASC are leading the way in sustainable practices through self-imposed regulations and scientific research.
• Integration of Disciplines: Combining science, anecdotal evidence, and emotional narratives strengthens conservation advocacy.
• Global Collaboration: International partnerships are key to addressing migratory species' challenges and ensuring ecological balance.
• Legacy and Education: Passing down sustainable hunting practices ensures the longevity of conservation efforts and the preservation of ecosystems for future generations.

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Notable Quotes:

• James Green [13:02]: "We harvest wild ducks and geese in wild places, so therefore they are wildfowls... We're managing wetlands, we're putting back, we're creating..."
• Mike Axelrod [19:02]: "Science is the way forward... anecdotal evidence and emotion... the trifecta of conservation narratives."
• James Green [43:43]: "Our recommendation for how we deliver the findings was one of self regulation... Sustainable Shooting Code of Practice."

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This episode sheds light on the pivotal role that organized hunting communities play in conservation, advocating for a harmonious balance between tradition and ecological responsibility. Through proactive measures, scientific integration, and international collaboration, organizations like BASC strive to ensure that hunting remains a sustainable and beneficial practice for both wildlife and ecosystems.

Transcript

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[Mike Axelrod]

Midway USA.com James Green is the Head of Wildfowl and Wetlands at basc, the British association for Shooting and Conservation. Got introduced to James, a good friend of ours in the uk. Manny and I wanted to have a conversation because I don't think a lot of our audience understands or fully realizes what's happening in the water fouling duck hunting world. In England they don't call it duck hunting, they don't call it water fouling, they call it wild fowling. And so James is the man. James has a steeped heritage of hunting through his dad. He's the son of Chris Green, who's better known as the Cornish Countryman. He is now A father of two, he's got a 14 year old boy, 6 year old daughter. They're immersed in the outdoors and and fishing and hunting and so who better to be seated in this role at BASC for wildfowl and wetlands than a guy that has literally wildfowls and wetlands running through his blood essentially. So I wanted to have this conversation with James. It's a fantastic conversation. I'm sure we'll have James back again. It's just full of information, full of just as you can hear, it just piqued my interest constantly. I had all these questions and I know that you probably have the same questions as James is talking. So enjoy this podcast, share it with your friends and really just understand a different part of the world that you might not have understood that they actually duck hunt in. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting. It brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals.

[James Green]

How do I start it?

[Mike Axelrod]

Brittany? My name.

[James Green]

Does my hair look okay?

[Mike Axelrod]

My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the caught of me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter. I think we're a dying breed. James, I think you're the first podcast that I've had and I've done 700 of these in which I'm interviewing somebody that has a heart like mine. Because you're a wetland ecologist.

[James Green]

I wouldn't say ecologist enthusiast.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, wetland. You love wetlands. I'm a swamp guy. I fell in love with swamps when I was 16 years old, the Arkavango Delta with my grandfather. And I came home from that and literally walked into university when I was first year and I said to the professor that became my supervisor in my honors and masters, I said, what do I need to study to become a wetland ecologist?

[James Green]

Knows that the rest is history, as they say.

[Mike Axelrod]

Rest is history. And built 25 years of work in the wetland field and absolutely love swamps and what they do and how they function and everything that they do for the landscape. And now I get to talk about them in a different light, you know, from a management and wildlife interaction perspective and utilizing them. And it's brilliant.

[James Green]

They're special places, aren't they?

[Mike Axelrod]

I think they are special places, man. You know, I think if you rewind the clock like a hundred years, they were probably the most evil places in the world, you know, had this sinister component to them because, you know, obviously you tread in a, in a, in a swamp or a bog or whatnot, and it's like, man, it smells like death in here. And if you don't know, you know, biogeochemistry, you don't really understand what you're smelling.

[James Green]

So absolutely and uniquely, you wouldn't have understood their, their role in, in the land that we rely so heavily on, you know, that there's such an important landscape under recognized for far too long. But I think that that's bad. Tide's turned. Excuse the pun.

[Mike Axelrod]

Do you in, in, in the UK are, do you have a similar situation that we faced in Because America, America over the last like hundred years has lost tremendous amounts of its wetland habitats and even to the point where the, the US government put in place a thing called the Swamp Buster program which was like, drain your wetlands, you know, like drain your wetlands. We're going to put agriculture in. And then all of a sudden everyone, you know, 50 years later was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop. Like we need to just change that law. Same thing happened in the UK.

[James Green]

Yeah, identical. So shortly after World War II, agriculture is really important. We need to feed the nation. So exactly the same thing. It was draining, filling in ponds, making fields bigger, increase production, feed a nation. So I get the need at the time, but it's been recognized that that was a, that was a bad move, bad move for, for the environment, bad move for biodiversity, for nature, for wildfowl, for a whole host of different things from flood preventions right the way through to carbon sequestration. So they're taking a time putting it back though that's one thing I would.

[Mike Axelrod]

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[James Green]

So peatland. So. Yeah, absolutely. So it's a. It is absolutely a wetland habitat. Not necessarily regularly referred to as such, but. But you know, you and I both know it is, so. Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

So I've seen lots of videos. Again, we're gonna squirrel down multiple rabbit holes. And I love whiskey too. Okay. And I like peaty whiskey and so is. And I don't know anything around this. And if you don't, you know, don't pretend that you do too. But you obviously you've seen those videos where the guys are cutting like slabs of peat, right? And they're not. That's not being used for whiskey. That's being used to burn for homes and warmth in homes. Is that sustainable?

[James Green]

Great question. I don't know. I don't know. So the practices of peat digging are few and far between today, so I'm assuming that it's not sustainable and they are making moves to protect the peat. So I know in the uplands they're huge, I suppose, drives to protect that peat environment, to, to ensure that we keep it wet, that it maintains the gases, etc. But yeah, no, I don't know enough about it to just comment, I'm afraid.

[Mike Axelrod]

Do the. So is there a program though in the UK that there's no government program or government subsidies that are saying, okay, look, yes, there are subsidies.

[James Green]

Courage the maintenance of salt marshes, to maintain wetland habitats for migratory birds, for breeding wild waterfowl, to, to, to rewet and to create. But it, they're not as easily accessible as they need to be to be truly beneficial. So it needs to be simplified.

[Mike Axelrod]

Are they on par from a payment perspective?

[James Green]

Some of them are very good.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[James Green]

But, but some of it's. You have to be in the right place. So if you're already in an area highlighted as being important for wetland creation, wetland management, then yeah, there are some good funding streams available. Let's say it's, it's a lot of these landowners, agriculture farmers, etc. That they're not, they're not renowned for being tech savvy. You know, they work the land, not sit behind a desk. So in order to be truly beneficial, the, the process needs to be made easier.

[Mike Axelrod]

So James, you're the, the, you work for Basque BAS, is the British association of Shooting for Shooting and Conservation. You're the head of wild fowl and wetlands. And just for Everybody in the US's edification, wildfowl are ducks.

[James Green]

Yeah, it's your, it's your waterfowl. My wildfowl.

[Mike Axelrod]

Why, why wildfowl and not waterfowl or ducks? Does it include a bunch of other things?

[James Green]

I have no idea where this actually came from and that's slightly embarrassing, but in the UK it's been only two seconds.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, look at you, Mr. I'm. I need.

[James Green]

I, Yeah, I switch mobile phone off.

[Mike Axelrod]

There we go.

[James Green]

Yeah, so that's actually slightly embarrassing, but wild places is, it would be my gut theme. We harvest wild ducks and geese in wild places, so therefore they are wild. Foul. Foul being ducks and geese and et cetera. So, so I'm assuming that's where it's come from, but I don't, I don't know that's just my judgment. Obviously in the US it's. It's waterfowl. It's waterfowling across the, across Europe. It's waterfowl. Waterfowling.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, that's interesting that you guys call it wildfowl.

[James Green]

Yeah, so, so, so what? My department, when I first took it on six years ago, I headed up the wild fouling department. I just.

[Mike Axelrod]

Sounds super proper.

[James Green]

Yeah, well, it is.

[Mike Axelrod]

Or waterfowling department. It is. It's historical. Yeah, exactly.

[James Green]

So. But we changed the name to better encapsulate what we actually do. So those that are taking a harvest from wildfowl aren't just simply extractive. We're managing wetlands, we're putting back, we're creating, we're maintaining, we're doing a whole host of science and research and contributing to synthesized projects, etc. So a name change means that when I sit around the table with government ministers, with the regulator, with people that might not necessarily fully understand who we are and what we do, I found that I was closing doors the moment I said, I'm the head of wildfowling, I'm ahead of the people that kill ducks. I'm not somebody that's contributing towards nature recovery and conservation. So that simple name change to say that actually the wildflower wetlands, that's who we are, that's what we're focused for, we want to deliver. Good. The mechanism for that is that we take a harvest from the wildflower populations. But that simple change just seemed to open up doors. So it was a worthwhile venture.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. And I think that's, you know, to the whole point of changing narratives. Did you feel like, because. Did you feel like the closing of the doors was occurring because whether it was us, us being writ large, the hunting community, us being nonprofits, you know, Basque sci, dsc, anybody that's in that space. Were we not doing a good enough job to connect this, like, look at what we're actually doing on the land versus. Oh, you guys are just killers. Yeah.

[James Green]

So. And that's 100. That's a, that's a failing of. I was gonna say BASC, but the shooting community at large in the UK.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh no. 100 shooting community writ large across the world for.

[James Green]

Well, particularly in the UK for the last 45, 50 years. We kept ourselves to ourselves, we kept our head down, we cracked on, we did some good things. There was a growing kind of anti shooting rhetoric growing within society. And it was simply, rather than elevating it and fueling the fire, just, just.

[Mike Axelrod]

Just Keep quiet, they'll get, oh, dude, you're hitting on. Exactly. So the analogy I use is this, and nobody's going to take offense to this because it's true. If you rerun the clock 20 years ago, being gay or homosexual, you were in a closet, right? You, you stayed away from everybody. It was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, no, no, no, no, no. Something changed. They decided, screw it, open the closet door, we're coming out, we're going to let everybody know. This is who we are. Hunting did the very opposite thing. We came into a closet, we closed the door, leave us alone, we'll do what we need to do, but every so often the door gets ripped open, somebody reaches in, punches us in the nose, we come screaming out of the closet, yelling and causing a ruckus and then we go quiet again and close the door and leave us alone.

[James Green]

And what it's done is it means that society don't have a true reflection of what it is that we do. So all of the good that we deliver, from upland moorland keepers, protecting huge landscapes to waterfowlers, creating wetlands, managing, maintaining, contributing towards citizen science and all of the good things that we do, nobody knows. So when there is a challenge and we go in and go, hey, but what about this good? They go, well one, prove it correct, prove it day and age science and evidence is key. You know, we want to be making evidence led science based decisions. We don't have that evidence base to be able to prove it. So in many ways we're going into fight with a hands tied behind the back to an audience that feel like we're towing the conservation rhetoric as a defense mechanism against their attack rather than a true justification of what it is that we do. And it puts us on the back foot. So, and it's in part down to the change of focus that we've had here at basc, particularly in the world of wildfowl, of, well, let's take the lead. What does sustainability look like? Where are we going to be in 20 years time and how are we going to get there? And that process, I think has kind of changed that, that attitude, at least internally. And it's starting to filter out externally into. Let's, let's own our narrative, let's ensure that we've got a long term future, let's make sure that we've got the evidence base to, to be able to properly defend what it is that we do rather than the relying on the, yeah, I suppose the counter arguments, those, those who want to see an end to Our way of life, our existence, just using emotive arguments. We want to base our decisions on facts. And science is the way forward, as you know.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, you know, I would. Science is the way forward. I think that the more that I get into this world that I live in, the more that I recognize that there's almost like three overlaying elements that have to come together. All right. Science is the leg of the stool. I think you could stand on the other two legs of this. Of a proverbial stool. No, let me back. Let me change it. It's very difficult to put. And why I'm struggling here is that I think you could. You could stand on the two legs of. Of what I'm about to say. But if you had the third leg, the science leg, it's almost indefensible to turn the stool over. You can stand on the stool, but you can be easily turned over if you've got the other two. And the other two are anecdotal evidence. Okay. And emotion. And so to me, the trifecta, like the king of kings, is having science, having anecdotal evidence, and having emotion all pulled together in a very strong narrative. Because I know as a scientist, if you had, if you asked me these kinds of questions 15 years ago, when I was a professor, when I was an academic professor in the wildlife fisheries department at Mississippi State University doing wetland ecology work, I would have said social. What. What are we listening to here? Why are we even talking about this kind of stuff? But that's what society is driven by. It's driven by social science, whether they know it or not. It's driven by emotion. It's driven by rhetoric, it's driven by narrative. So why are we not doing the same thing, but also infusing this, this. This underpinning of indefensible, defensible science or not indefensible, defensible science. That really shows our story in, like, a very strong light.

[James Green]

So you fit the nail on the head. So it's something that we. We recognized as an organization, but that social science element is equally as important. And it's kind of how we started this conversation about ensuring that our voice is properly heard at every level. So how do we communicate with governments, how do we communicate with regulators, with the general public, with landowners and. And our members and those that shoot. And it does require a different approach. So that social element, that social science element is really important. We've just recently recruited a dedicated social scientist for that purpose. So we're moving in the right directions. Which is reassuring to hear.

[Mike Axelrod]

Just make sure that they're interacting with everybody, they're not stuck in a corner and say you're the social scientist, you know, we don't interact with you.

[James Green]

The chat we've employed, he is, he's good and he's forcing himself into every single nook and cranny. So I think that's. Yeah, it's a special set of skills.

[Mike Axelrod]

James, tell me a little bit. Obviously we've got a lot of hunters that listen to this podcast, but we also got a lot of non hunters that listen to this podcast. I think a lot of people would if you had asked him like, can you duck hunt in England? They'll be like, I don't know. I know the answer to that. I've heard that you can. I've seen pictures of people being super into the wild fouling component, being super uncomfortable in these tidal creeks, waiting for potentially ducks to come in on the rising tide and get maybe a passing shot at a couple of ducks.

[James Green]

Yeah, so, so that, that's wild fouling waterfowl hunting in its truest sense. So if you go back to how BSE was formed, we formed in 1908 as Wagby, which was the Wildfathers Association, Great Britain and Ireland.

[Mike Axelrod]

So Basque was based on wildfire. Like that is the thing it was.

[James Green]

Based, cemented to our core. Absolutely. Those forward thinking individuals in a, in a little black hut up on the banks of the Humber estuary realized that there were threats to the future of their way.

[Mike Axelrod]

What were the threats then?

[James Green]

So it was impacts to habitat, drainage and protectionists trying to limit the ability to harvest.

[Mike Axelrod]

Wildfowl hasn't changed in 120 years.

[James Green]

Exactly the same threats we face today. So. So they were really pioneering. You know, if you go back 1908 to think to yourselves that we're going to set up this organization, it's going to give us all a voice. At that time it's almost like Teddy Roosevelt esque. Yeah, it's good.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's like, sheesh. That's when Teddy was thinking about national park systems and putting the Pittman Robertson act in place and Dingle Johnson act in place in the us Some big.

[James Green]

Big things if you tried to achieve today.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, you would never get, you wouldn't.

[James Green]

Get them over the line. You know, climbing is everything. So at the time in the UK it was, we still have market gunners, so people making subsistence financially and from, from food by taking a harvest from wildfire during the wintertime, send them on trains up to London selling, etcetera Those people during the summer were fishermen. They made it, made their living off the land and obviously that any challenges to the quarry that we can harvest or the habitats that are required would significantly impact on those, those generations. So WAGBY was formed. Roll that on. In the 80s we turned to BASC, realized that the threat slide equally across shooting sports, whether that's harvesting a deer or releasing game and taking a surplus, whatever that looked like. BASC was then formed as the British association for Shooting Conservation to protect all forms of recreational shooting. The days of the market gunner is now long gone. But the principles of taking a harvest to feed your family, to give to friends from a wild population in a truly sustainable way still lives long. While finding clubs. There's a structure within the UK so we have clubs right the way across the country that kind of came together, many of which around 1954, birds act a few little later in the 1980s. Some of these clubs are 75, 80 years old. And again, that's history. I love history. It's fantastic. So, and they basically provide their own management approach to managing wildfowling in small areas. So it might be just a few hundred meters of marsh on, on an estuary to 23 plus kilometers of, of an estuary.

[Mike Axelrod]

Now that's all private land that these clubs are over or is it public land mix?

[James Green]

Very little public land in the uk.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, okay. So no, no, General Joe Blow couldn't. Or can they can they hunt public land in uk?

[James Green]

So we've got Scotland, so we have a recreational right of access to the foreshore in Scotland. So, so we can, we can go and chase wildfowl recreationally. That's the only area of open access. There's one tiny area in England, but the rest of it is owned by the Crown state or private ownership or by the wildfounding clubs themselves that have rallied together and managed to purchase the land that they, they now hunt over.

[Mike Axelrod]

These wildfireling clubs, you said 75 to 80 years old, I'm assuming. Do you find generational families in these wildfire clubs?

[James Green]

Yeah, right at the core. Yeah, yeah. And some of those, those families will date back to the days of the market gunners. You know, they, they were the people that were the salt of the earth that, that they lived and breathed those environments, you know, 100 years ago. And again, that, that, that history, it's so important. There's a lot to be learned from it. Unfortunately it seems to vanish. Doesn't stay forever, does it?

[Mike Axelrod]

So these wild filing clubs are working their own ground, their Own private grounds, does the government put on them a quota, a limit in terms of is it species or is it a bag of ducks? Like how does it work in terms of take.

[James Green]

It's really different here in the uk. I mean, in the UK we, we're heavily regulated in some areas and not regulated at all in others. And wildfowling in its truest sense on the foreshore, we have protected areas, protected sites, so areas of ecological importance for an abundance of a certain species. So if we hold, let's say 10% of, you know, Europe's population of pig footed geese on a certain estuary, whatever that figure is, will designate it as a special protection area as a European designation or a triple SI as a Europe UK designation. The moment you put that statutory designation onto the site, there are legal frameworks that you have to jump through in order to carry on shooting. We have the regulators in the UK then analyze and work out whether your act, what you request to do is sustainable and compatible with the nature conservation objectives of the site. That comes in the form of a consent, it's an ecological permission and it's done at a site level. So that very small area used to hold X number of birds, it's now holding Y. And they can be unbelievably precautionary in their approach to saying, and who's they Defra Natural England. So, so natural England sit, sits below defra or alongside defra and basically they'll review it and go, well, it's designated for widget, used to have a thousand, it's now only got 500. And you, Mr. Wildfunding Club, you want to, you want to shoot 20 or we need to restore the population back up to a thousand. Therefore we're not going to let you shoot your 20 widgets, so you can't shoot your mortgage.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, so is the government in that scenario? What is the government doing to take it from 500 to 1,000?

[James Green]

Nothing. And this is the frustration. And this is the frustration. So you've got the very people that understand the makeup of these esteries that have been protecting them and managing them for centuries, for decades at least. And I have a vested interest, you know, more wildfowl, better wildfowling, more enjoyment, bigger harvest, it's all, it's all good, right? So what they're doing is alienating one of only a handful of people that.

[Mike Axelrod]

Are even, even care.

[James Green]

Even care. Not, not even just care, but have the skill set, the mindset, the willingness to get out there into these places and undertake some practical conservation work. So it is very perverse the outcomes, but this is bas's jobs is to try and revert that back to some kind of level playing field.

[Mike Axelrod]

Are you guys taking census? So let's just, again, let's just use that widget example that you created. Who would have. Who is. Who is determining on an annual basis the number of widgets.

[James Green]

Don't get me started. So we've got a brilliant data set in the uk. We've got something referred to as Webster Wetland Bird Survey. It's undertaken by volunteers right the way across the country for the bto.

[Mike Axelrod]

Nice. It's like a citizen science app, kind of.

[James Green]

Absolutely. It's great. And it's been running since the 60s 70s long term data set. And that's brilliant because over that long long term data set with the same methodology, you get to see trends. Brilliant. The problem is because when the designations came in, they had conservation objectives with them, which says this site's now being designated and should have X. That's now a legally binding obligation, that X never changes. The X never changes. When we're trying to play God with something which we can't implement, the X never changes.

[Mike Axelrod]

And say again, let's use our wedge. An example, when was the X put in place?

[James Green]

1970, 1980s, most of it. 80s, 90s.

[Mike Axelrod]

And nothing has changed since 1980. Right.

[James Green]

Life's changed a lot. The world's changed, climate has certainly changed.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh my gosh.

[James Green]

So I think there are people that understand this process, this mechanism doesn't work. It's not that for purpose, but it is what we've got, it is what the law is and we have to follow processes. So we're trying to work to influence changes in legislation, work into influences, change pragmatic decisions within these processes that are evidence led that can start to actually deliver a conservation objective. But we've got to play with what we've got because the law's a law. So unless it gets changed, we open ourselves up to legal challenges. So in some ways it's good that we are following the due process, but at the same time it's putting very ecologically inept conditions on people unnecessarily. You know, as we know saying to a wildfighting club, you can't shoot 6 snipe 20 widget because they want to restore a population of thousands. It's not the mechanism. What we need to do is we need to fix the issue. And the issue for us, unlike in North America, the issue for us is really difficult because most of our migratory wildfowl don't breed in the uk, so they're breeding in Russia, in Finland, in Sweden, in North Europe, so on the tundra. So the breeding thousands of miles away. And we know that through population dynamics, 80% of impacts or influences the population is breeding. So. So it's kind of out of our hands. And it's one.

[Mike Axelrod]

You've got any partnerships or collaborations set up?

[James Green]

Absolutely. That. That's exactly where I was going. So it's part of the reason the Waterfowls Network was set up was to try and bring specifically to our own little flyway some cohesion, some collaboration. So what we've now got is the Waterfowlers Network. So you've got Denmark, the uk, Ireland, Finland, Sweden, Germany and others all the way across that flyway collaborating at scale. Parts of that collaboration highlighted that within the eu, the majority of our breeding ducks are coming from Finland and Sweden. So let's concentrate our efforts. So bac, a couple of years ago we started funding wetland creation initiatives within. It's part of the Socket program of wetlands.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, I've talked to somebody in Finland about the Sotka.

[James Green]

There you go, There you go. So we started funding that just last week. Myself and Dr. Matt Ellis, our director of conservation at BASC, were over in Finland for the annual meeting of the Waterfowls Network. So perfect timing to be talking to you about it and looking at the things that they're doing in Finland to try and create, I call it, we refer to it as turning the tap back on. So in the uk, if we want more birds, we need to find a way of turning the tap on. And there's no point whatsoever whatsoever in us having the world's most amazing wetland sites wintering wildfowl, if you have not breeding successfully. Not coming.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[James Green]

So there's two things. One is climate change influencing range shift? So birds are shifting north and east in their in their range just because.

[Mike Axelrod]

You'Re not getting the cold winters anymore, pushing them down. Same thing as America.

[James Green]

Exactly, exactly. But our designations don't allow for that because in the 80s we had X, so we must have Y. And we've now got why we should have X. We've also got changes in agriculture. Again, LinkedIn to climate change and drainage of some of the continent, which then means that species like the European white fronted goose that used to come in their thousands to the east coast of England and the seven ash tree in.

[Mike Axelrod]

The west now smashing Holland.

[James Green]

Exactly.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Green]

Still the most common grey goose in the western pale Arctic. And now I've got pressure internally here in the UK saying, well, you probably shouldn't be harbored.

[Mike Axelrod]

They're super endangered now in England.

[James Green]

Exactly. They're red listed, you know, 72% decline. They're like, no, they're not giving you a cold winter. And we'll have them exactly.

[Mike Axelrod]

Give us a massive freaking winter storm up north and watch.

[James Green]

Exactly. And that's the issues that we've got. So it's not, it's not an easy fight that BSE is trying to take on at the moment, because I say we do lack some of the evidence, some of the data, but we are putting in place processes, try and plug those gaps. So whether that's researching dispersal of mallard that we release into the uk, whether that's researching the value and contribution that the shooting community has to wetland management and creation. So we actually have some real hard facts that we roll out and say you've got to be very careful because if you lose X, you also lose Y. So with the vanishing of shooting, you lose all of this management, all this pest and birds control, all of this citizen science. You know, if you think about how we're actually managing the flyway and where these birds are going, one of the major things is ring returns. Leg rings being rung in Holland, in the uk, wherever it is turning up, being harvested over here. And the primary mechanism for those, those ring recordings is shooting his harvest.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[James Green]

So we remove harvest from the UK and we end up with skewed data set.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[James Green]

We then don't have the ring returns to say the birds did come here. We won't be able to plot the impacts of climate change. So they might be small things, but they're really important.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[James Green]

I realized you, I've gone off on my own little.

[Mike Axelrod]

I love it. This round of I love this podcast. So let me again, just General Joe Blow, who's. Who's hunting his little private wetland club on the, on the, on the shore. How does he know how many birds he is allowed to take?

[James Green]

Take whatever he likes, as much as he wants. Yep.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[James Green]

Yep.

[Mike Axelrod]

So how do you justify that to the social public?

[James Green]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

To say how can that be sustainable if you can take whatever you want and how. How much you want? Is there a season?

[James Green]

Yeah. So we've got a season.

[Mike Axelrod]

So okay, she got a season.

[James Green]

It's got a season. Absolutely. So 1st of September through to the 20th of February on the foreshore. So below the mean high water mark.

[Mike Axelrod]

Holy smokes. We get like 59 days in America. That's it.

[James Green]

176 whatever it is. So it's inland. So on fresh water above the, the seawall behind the sea wall, it ends on the 31st of January. So the 1st of September 31st of January. So and that's been the same for a very long time. A very long time. Your question around how do they know how much they can shoot? So while finally clubs, they'll have their own sustainability limits. So they've been doing this a very self imposed. Self imposed, Absolutely.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[James Green]

Anything from give you, I'll give you a selection. So only two mallards per person per day in the month of September to protect our resident breeding birds right the way through to no more than two or maybe even four gray geese in a flight so that we don't disperse roosts to 10 daily, 10 bird daily bag limits on duck in some areas. Then there were other clubs that go. We show so few that we don't need limits because it's naturally kind of self policing in that we are a very small estuary with a very small abundance of birds. And if we get the opportunity to shoot one or two for the table, that's all we're ever taking anyway. So you've got every spectrum from fantastic shooting where they have brought in measures to fix problems, they've highlighted themselves to really small scale, don't need any, any additional recommendations. And then you go outside of the wildfighting club matrix and it's just you and I shooting on some farmland that we might have some permission on. We might have a pond or a wetland during the wintertime and we can do what you like.

[Mike Axelrod]

It is what you just described to me is, you know, talk about your social scientist. He should be taking that, that idea and shouting from the rooftops. And the hunting community should too. Because nobody's telling these wildfighting clubs what to do. They're doing, they're taking it on themselves at their own behest to say club members, you're restricted. And so just to meet the, the mere fact that somebody says you're restricted without a government regulation saying you're restricted without a governmental organization saying you're restricted says what it says something extremely specific and something that we should put a feather in our cap all the time at, which is we are the conservationists here. We're doing it ourselves. We're doing it because we want this to continue through generations. We don't want to wipe them all out. We're not just a bunch of hooligan gun toting hooligans that just go out and shoot as Much as we want, whenever we want, we're self regulating ourselves.

[James Green]

Absolutely. But as I said right at the start of this conversation, unfortunately that doesn't stack up because we haven't been telling people we don't have the evidence of its value. We don't know what it looked like before they put in place their restrictions, we don't know what it looks like after in terms of the data, the science, the evidence. So we, we took it upon ourselves as BAC to take a real deep dive into what this looks like. So we became aware that we had our governments were going to be reviewing our quarry list, so our nine species of ducks and four species of geese that we can harvest and said, right, if they're going to be reviewing our quarry list, we only have a history of one way legislation in the UK and that stuff comes, comes off the query list. Stuff doesn't go on. So in order to get ahead of the curve, we undertook our own approach to a quarry review. So we, we engaged with face, which is the European Federation Hunters in Europe, we engaged with face, we were doing a similar thing because the European Commission were also looking to do their own review and we basically reviewed 1500-2000 peer reviewed scientific papers on all of the quarry species about everything from what the reasons for population level impacts are through to sustainable harvest levels through to conservation initiatives that could be put in place to recover populations. And ended up creating her own internal framework of if we can put a bird in at the top, kind of come out of this framework with a recommendation that says no harvest in the UK is currently completely sustainable, maybe we should be even shooting more right the way up to. Actually we've got big questions here, should we be harvesting this bird? So we did that review. We also took it to our internal wildfunding liaison committee which is where BASC brings a load of experts within the wildfouling world from across the UK and brings them in house and says, right, you guys are externals and we want some checks and balances internally at BAC to make sure that we're driving forward in the right direction. We want you to sense check we've got this threat, government are going to do these reviews, we've undertaken this review, we found out all these things. Now what do we do? Do we wait for government to say these are our recommendations and we are planning to remove X species or change these seasons, or do we go on front foot and do we go to government, do we go to DEFRA and say this is what we think at a Similar time Republic of Ireland announced the removal of four species from the quarry list. Similar review hunting fraternity hadn't engaged in the process and there's a big red line through four species and now they're in legal appeals hard. Far easier to influence a decision than it is.

[Mike Axelrod]

100%. Oh no, 100%. You want to be involved in the decision making process?

[James Green]

Absolutely. So we're really pleased that our wlc, our wildflowing liaison committee unanimously supported a proactive approach. So we've taken our evidence review, we've gone to DEFRA and said look, this is what we found, what few found and it turns out we'd undertaken a very similar review. The only change was that our recommendation for how we deliver the findings was one of self regulation. And exactly what you said earlier about when you trust people, when you've got good people and you give them good quality information, they make sensible decisions and when they can buy into the need, you achieve greater outcomes. So if you've got perverse legislation that's not going to achieve an ecological people are more minded to ignore it, which means you haven't achieved the objective. But if you can really buy into the, the nuts and bolts of why, then they'll adhere. So we end then. We then created our sustainable shooting code of practice, taking all of that information, 1500 plus peer reviewed scientific journals papers condensed it down into a really simple to understand documents that these are what our broad sustainability principles look like. The simple things, eat what you shoot. No more than 10 ducks per day, no more than six gray geese per day to be made up of, I think it's five pinks, four gray lags, two white fronts to ensure that we are contributing to the provision of evidence and research to make sure that we're delivering for conservation breeding in overwintering to make sure we're minimizing disturbance in our footprint, make sure we're collecting the data basically so that that's our broad suddenity principles. And in a handful of species that required action for our review, we've then got species specific recommendations based on the evidence that says this bird is suffering because of X, Y and Z. We have a role to play because we can, we're taking a harvest or we can contribute towards habitat or whatever it is, we can increase predator control. These are our recommendations. Manage harvest and do these good things. And that's. Well, there it is, that's sustainable, brilliant practice. And I've been blown away to be honest. It's, it's moved us from being an organization that sits on A periphery of some of these conversations to being a vital cognitive in what the future looks like. As you said, owning the subject matter, actually delivering it. Walking the walk.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah. And I'll say this because I live in America, I do not interact with basc. I only am looking outside from the outside, looking in. And I think you guys have been accused of not doing that in the past. Not walking, not walking the talk, right? Talk, talk, talk, talk, talk. We're not doing anything. And I'm glad to see that, man. I'm really glad. I love the fact again, it's, it's, it's a self. You did the science, you did the work. You're like, okay, here we are as hunters, this species, we shouldn't be, you know, harvesting as men, because here's what's the science. And then delivering that downstream and saying, look, we want to help. Like, it's not that. We're just like telling you, you don't do this, but hey, let's not do this. But then we also have to do all these other things to get us back to where we want to be. And we're going to be involved in that.

[James Green]

Exactly. So. So this is. We all want to leave behind a legacy for the next generation. And every shooter, which is important to.

[Mike Axelrod]

You because you come from a massive history of yourself, like family is steeped in hunting. Right. And shooting.

[James Green]

Absolutely. Yeah. No, so it's, I think it was, it's embedded in my DNA. So my old man is a bit of a character, should we say here, over here in the uk, in relation to wildfowling. Mad as a box of frogs.

[Mike Axelrod]

Is he still alive?

[James Green]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. You know, he's still going strong. Yeah. And he's still, he's still fishing, he's still shooting, he's still, he's still wildfowling. He's. He puts most people my age to shame. He's still, he's still out in a float tube two miles out to sea fishing. You know, she's larger than life. So having that, when you grow up in that world, you can't help but have that connection, deep rooted connection to the wild places, to wildfowl, to wild food. And that's something which in my role now, being able to try and leave behind a bit of a legacy, something still from a dad. So we've got members today. I want to protect it for you. And then we've also got my next generation. So my boy, my daughter, 14.

[Mike Axelrod]

How old are they?

[James Green]

14. It's my boy's 14 and my daughter's 6. Awesome. Yeah. Both keen, both enthusiastic. My daughter caught first trout earlier this year on the Flywad. My boy, last year, he shows first. First ducks.

[Mike Axelrod]

Sweet.

[James Green]

So really cool. And they completely understand that that's where food comes from. It's what we eat, what we live on. There's nothing more natural than normal than that. And being able to try and make sure that shooting is in a place where their grandchildren will still be able to go out into wild marshes that still look wild, that still home to migratory waterfowl, and we can still take a sustainable surplus. It's gotta be the goal, right? That's what we're working for.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, and I think somebody like you in the position that you're in, the head of, you know, wildfowl and the wetlands of basc, having that family heritage, having that family tradition, and yourself now having the next generation underneath you that you want this thing to continue, it's almost like it's hard. It's hard for somebody to point a finger at you from the wild fouling community itself. So you're not doing it. You know, you're just in there for a job. You're just in there for a paycheck. You're like, nah, sir. No, I don't think so.

[James Green]

Yeah, it's not. It's. I think there have been accusations from the membership in years gone by, job for the boys, typically, of thing. Job for the boys, it's certainly not. It's hard work, but there's a lot of good people very committed to the cause.

[Mike Axelrod]

It doesn't matter if it's boys or girls, as long as you. If you've got this. This commitment to doing the right thing for the hunting community and. And unfortunately, some people have it, some people don't. But if you've got a fam. You've got a heritage in it like you do, and that you're investing now into the next generation, it certainly brings in an added level of passion and commitment that somebody who doesn't can't bring to the table. And I'm sorry if that is, you know, if that's offensive to someone because, oh, I don't get an opportunity to be in the position that James is in. Okay. You may have the academic credentials. That's all good and well, but we know it's. You need more than that.

[James Green]

Absolutely. Yeah. So that's really pleasing to hear. I appreciate that, Robbie. Thank you. We've said we've all got a role to play, and it's not to diminish the roles that others are playing because as say, every single person's got to play their part. If we aren't going to have a long term future, it requires everybody from government to CEOs of organizations like BASC to the individual members of staff, right the way down to the biggest voice that we've got, and that's the hunters, the shooters themselves. And if they all step up, adhere to simple principles within the sustainable shooting code, they start providing data, evidence, start tailoring their conservation interventions to be a little bit more beneficial, then we can make some serious inroads into nature recovery. And if we do that, we'll have a long, long future, I'm certain. So exciting times ahead.

[Mike Axelrod]

James, just last question here. I know the UK practices from a deer perspective that you can sell the animal, right? You can sell the animal into the system, you can make money. Same thing with wildfowl or. No, great question.

[James Green]

So historic historically. Absolutely, yes. So the days of the market gunner, that, that was, that was the thing. I think it was part of the 54 Bird Act. But the provision to sell geese was removed. So you cannot sell wild geese. So that is purely for personal consumption. Wildfowl, with the exception of Gamble, weirdly, I don't know why, can be sold one bird species.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah, just can't sell that guy.

[James Green]

Yeah, exactly. Gab will know. And the rest of them. Yeah, crack on. So yes, I can sell wild ducks. Many of the wild fanning clubs, we go back to that self regulation. Many of the wildfire island clubs prohibit it on club ground, their mantra.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, that makes sense, right? Because again, if you've got a species unlike deer, right, Deer, overabundant, overpopulated, smash as many as you want. Obviously ducks very much more sensitive habitats aren't in the same place as we've all talked about it makes sense.

[James Green]

We're taking a sustainable surplus, not making money. We're not exploiting a wild population. That's the mantra here. But there are still areas where that's happening. People will be selling wild ducks. But I don't think that's malice, it's a lack of knowledge. And that's part of the code that eat what you shoot, do it for yourself, don't take what you can, take what you need. And I think that's something which as you grow up, you kind of learn. You as a young wildfowler, you think, this is great, I'm having a great morning and I've shot a few duck and then anything is, would it be great if I shot A few more, and then you grow up and go, well, actually, I've got three, four, five duck in the freezer.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, you almost have to go through that evolution, right? Everybody or every hunter goes through that evolution.

[James Green]

So I'm a little bit anal when it comes to my freezer and my food rotation. So I've got. I'm running four freezers. Do I have a meat freezer? I have a fish freezer. I have.

[Mike Axelrod]

Don't, man. I'm not jealous now. I've got multiple freezers. I haven't got them compartmentalized like you do.

[James Green]

Oh, you've got to have your vac packing down.

[Mike Axelrod]

I don't have a vac packer. I need a. I need a backpacker.

[James Green]

You need a backpacker, my friend. You need a backpacker filing cabinet style. So you can go your pheasant breast. You've got your pigeon breast, you've got your duck. And I know that on average, I'm gonna have five or six equivalent to roast chickens a year. So that's. I make sure that during the season, I'll get five or six roast pheasants, and I'll pluck them whole. I know that I want two or three geese. I want a really good goose for my Christmas day dinner. So the best goose, that's gonna be my. For my Christmas Day. I also know that I'm gonna want three or four geese, Sorry, Ducks for roast. So I collect them over the course of the season, knowing that that's about what I'm gonna use. I'll collect around about a hundred peasants, and that replaces entirely my chicken purchase. But as I say, the status. Take what you need, not what you can. I know what my family eats. I have a motto which says that I won't shoot another duck next season until the ducks from this season are all gone. Because that's what I'm. That's what I'm doing for.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[James Green]

Come September, if I've still got duck in the freezer, I'll tend to take it out on batch, defrost it, and I'll make a big vat of duck curry or wildfowl, shepherd's wildflower pie, whatever it is. And then I have my ready meal freezer. So my wife is. Unfortunately, I've married for looks and personality, not ability to cook.

[Mike Axelrod]

Please don't take offense to that on a. On a global podcast.

[James Green]

Share that with the nation over the world. Gee whiz, if I. If I'm come back. If we speak again, I'm divorced. This this was the, this was the. This was it. No. I love my cooking. It's part and parcel of why I hunt. And I take great pride in, in taking something. It is ingrained in me by my dad. If you're going to shoot something and take somebody's life, you eat it, you put it to the best use you can. And that comes from looking after it from the moment you've shot it to preparing it well for the table, looking after it in the freezer and making it taste great on the plate. So that's kind of my, my mantra. I have my free freezers, fish, meat, ready meals so that my wife can eat well when I'm not here. So that's your pheasant, Bolognese is your duck, fajitas, whatever it is, that's the. Isn't it? And then I have my normal man freezer, frozen peas and sweet corn.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, you better start. You're probably already in that phase of your life that you're where you thought you needed 100 pheasants, you probably need 150 pheasants now because you've got a 14 year old that's eating your house out of house and home.

[James Green]

It's just growing 2 inches in the last week, I swear. Yeah, yeah. Appetite's going up, but I think we can care for it. We'll be all right.

[Mike Axelrod]

Brilliant, man. Well, James, I think we need to do this more regularly, man. You know, when you have good conversation, time flies by and I really, you know, there's so much to be done, there's so much to be said. There's. You guys have got stories out the wazoo in terms of, you know, showing our true heart of what hunting means to us and how, how we do care about wildlife, how we do care about wildfowl. Yeah. Watch the space. I think we'll do a lot more together here in the next, you know, hopefully year or two.

[James Green]

Well, thanks for hearing our story and it's been great to chat to you.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.

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