← The Origins Foundation Podcast
The Origins Foundation Podcast
Episode 573 - Angi Bruce || Let’s Do It The Right Way!
00:50:22
Robbie is joined by Angi Bruce, the first female director of the Wyoming Department of Fish and Game. The Iowa native recounts her 20 years doing external affairs in her home state and her move to Wyoming to lead the Game and Fish Department there. From horse removal on the Indian reservation to roadways initiatives, to how we message about the sporting lifestyle, Angi and Robbie cover it all.
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- [00:00]
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Larry Potterfield
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- [02:16]
Angie Bruce
How do I start it?
- [02:17]
Larry Potterfield
Brittany My name.
- [02:19]
Angie Bruce
Does my hair look okay?
- [02:21]
Larry Potterfield
My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to hunter. So again I. I don't even know how I'm going to ask a question I don't know how to answer because I'm not a Female. But you're the first female director of the Game Fish agency in Wyoming ever.
- [03:11]
Angie Bruce
Yes, absolutely. Huge.
- [03:14]
Larry Potterfield
That's massive.
- [03:15]
Angie Bruce
Yeah, I have never looked at it that way. My career, I've been the first whatever. In many things.
- [03:22]
Larry Potterfield
That's awesome.
- [03:23]
Angie Bruce
But you know, one thing that dawned on me when everybody started calling me the first female was the fact that it does mean something to some people, which is other females in the industry. Um, you know, I, I've had an incredible career working with hundreds and hundreds of male counterparts who have always been so respectful. So I guess I don't even look at it as something special or different, but when other females are telling me it's needed and they need to see a female at the top, so to speak, I'm pretty honored then with that comment and have grown to appreciate it.
- [04:05]
Larry Potterfield
Well, you should be. You should be honored. It's a, it's a massive kudos. It's a massive feather in your cap. There is not many of you. I have interviewed most of them. My, one of my favorite, she, she actually just left. What was her name? The Louisiana lady. She just went to ice. She's going to kill me. Listening to this podcast. She's like, you don't remember my name, but Judy Camuso up in Maine. Judy's amazing. You know, comes from a non hunting background, almost was. I think she was a vegetarian at one point and now is the director of the Fish and Game Agency in Maine. She's such a cool lady. And yeah, I think you, you know, whether it's embarrassing or not, whether you, you know, you want to be humble about it, obviously you want to have some humility around it, but there are girls out there that are like, hey, she's in that position. I can be in that position too.
- [05:08]
Angie Bruce
Yeah, definitely. You know, one thing that sticks in my head is, oh, probably 20 years ago, earlier in my career, I was going through a drive through getting a drink or something and the person helping me was a female and she paused and she went, oh my gosh. You know, cause I'm in my state truck and in uniform and she's like, you're the first ever female I've ever seen. You know, so again, those things do matter. People need to see themselves in a position that they may want to be in one day. And so if I can offer that, I, you know, is something that I'm privileged to do.
- [05:48]
Larry Potterfield
Yeah, yeah. So you're, you're the director of Game Fish in Wyoming right now, but you have, are you born in Wyoming? Because you, you it seems like you, you, you spent like 20 years in Iowa, right?
- [06:02]
Angie Bruce
Yeah. Yeah. So born and raised on a farm in Iowa and worked for the Iowa DNR there.
- [06:09]
Larry Potterfield
Always wanted to be like in that realm. Like when you were raised, you were like, man, I'm going to be, I'm going to work for the state in dnr.
- [06:17]
Angie Bruce
Um, you know, I think as you come up through your career, early on, when I was in college, I knew I wanted to do something outside side and something with wildlife. And then as I tried different things, I think one of my first jobs was at a state park. Absolutely loved it. It was my local state park. Checked a lot of campers, cleaned out a lot of charcoal fire pits, drove tractor, did lots of mowing and thought it was a great summer. But that's not where I fit. That's not where I see myself working. And so I then worked for nonprofit the Nature Conservancy. Spent the entire summer in a tent working on ecosystems and restoring ecosystems in Iowa. Yep. Yeah. So incredible. That's what I tell people. Just jump in and try something. You'll figure out what you're good at and what you want to do.
- [07:11]
Larry Potterfield
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- [10:21]
Angie Bruce
And you know when I really got into the policy world some in Iowa and then when I came to Wyoming, I never would have guessed that would be. My focus is really working on policy and most of it's self taught. These are a lot of things we don't learn in college. But over time I began to love it. If I could influence one federal decision or one state law. The impact to the fish and wildlife resource was so huge and I just began to understand how it plays such an important role in wildlife management and just really fell in love with that piece of the job.
- [10:58]
Larry Potterfield
It's, it's so funny you say that. I was, I was a professor in the Wildlife fisheries department at Mississippi State University for six years. I thought what I did was amazing. I thought, you know, I was a ditch. I'm a wetland ecologist. I'm a swamp ecologist by training. Then diversified into more of a restoration ecologist world. Lived in my drainage ditch space, my wetland space, my agricultural space. You know, had no acumen, because nobody teaches you this. To your point, no acumen around policy, no acumen around regulations. No acumen about just simple politics of relationships between organizations. And what you do affects this, this, this, and this. And why. If you had thought about it a little differently, you should have done it this way. You know, um, until I got hired, I left. I was. I was loaned out from Mississippi State as a professor to be the first chief scientist of the BP oil spill that happened. And so all of a sudden, I went from being this small assistant professor to being the chief scientist of a council. And my bosses were the designees of the five governors of the five Gulf states.
- [12:13]
Angie Bruce
Okay.
- [12:15]
Larry Potterfield
And the designees of six federal entities, agencies. And I was like, very quickly, I was like, oh, this is how the world works.
- [12:26]
Angie Bruce
Yeah.
- [12:27]
Larry Potterfield
This is how decision making works. This is how policy gets put in place and put into motion and what it means. I just wish that. I don't know, how do you build like a. You need to build like a practicum course for graduate students to say, okay, just. You've learned a lot, you know, a little bit about. A little bit with your PhD. But let me. Let's introduce you to the real world for a second.
- [12:53]
Angie Bruce
Yes. Yeah, you really hit home on it. That's exactly right. You know, definitely wildlife management, we talk all the time. It's. It's really about people management. You know, working with policy. A lot of people want to talk about its content. Politics, interfering with wildlife management, that's one thing that kind of gets under my skin because I said we want that. We want that because politics is people, and that means people care. And so, you know, this is an important interaction. And that the fantasy of working out on the landscape and capturing and coloring mule deer every day to understand their movements and then just being able to sit and analyze and work on the data and nothing else. Okay. You know, that world doesn't exist. But more importantly is even those folks find themselves wanting to apply it. How do we apply this and now? How do we protect what we have and ensure it lasts into the future? And that's when people come into play. Politics, policy. But we want it to because we don't manage that mule Deer for mule deer. We manage it for us or the people. And so it's a good thing. I challenge my staff all the time when they say we should just refer to the biological data. Absolutely. We should start there. We always should start there. It's the foundation of who we are. But what the people want is data, too, and it's just as valuable and it needs to come into the conversation and we can't be afraid of it and we can't say it's politics. It's so bad that it influenced our management. It's like, well, no, we want it to. That's the people talking about what they want. So it's tricky. I don't know how you get people prepared for it, except just throw them right into the mix of it. Yeah.
- [14:59]
Larry Potterfield
And you want, and you want your people to. You know, that's the best part about your resource biologists that work for somebody like you. Right. When I was, again, when I was teaching, I was teaching those future resource biologists and some of them are gainfully employed with resource agencies. And I told you, I, I said, I told them, I said, I need to do my job because you're going to be managing my resources one day. And the management part was, was emphasized a lot because that's the implementation component. Right. And you have to have a bit of science. But once, once you've got that science, then it's really about people, as you say, it's delivering data to people. And the data that the people are interested in is. How does this affect me? Yeah, how is. And you know, these wildlife fisheries departments at the Land Grot Institutes, you know, they used to be called hook and bullet departments because they were, they were designed to, like, how do you create the best hook, how do you create the best bullet with science to then deliver that data to the general public. The people that you're serving, the agency is serving to do what they like with the resource that they have.
- [16:12]
Angie Bruce
Absolutely. Yeah. It's tricky. And especially, you know, it gets even trickier when you have a wide variety of public who are on opposite ends of the spectrum trying to influence that as well. You know, we, we see that more and more. We have a very deep wildlife passion in this state. You know, there's a reason why I came to Wyoming. Right. The iconic species there are not grizzly bears, wolves, elk, mule deer in Iowa. I could go on and on. What is not an Iowa compared to Wyoming? There are not. So you have, you know, these iconic species and. But what you do have by the people in this state, no matter where you go, it's this. Either they themselves love white Wyoming's wildlife or they understand why people love it. I don't know how much to, how to say this better than open up any newspaper in the state. You will see Wyoming's wildlife every single day in the paper. Every single day. Sometimes two or three. Turn on the live news, you'll see it as well. That was never the case in Iowa. In fact, if we made the paper that was usually problematic.
- [17:34]
Larry Potterfield
Yeah. But here something had gone wrong.
- [17:38]
Angie Bruce
Yeah. It is one of the number one things that reporters like to report on because people care about and they want to read about it and they're passionate and it is in the face of our public every day.
- [17:49]
Larry Potterfield
Do you see the reporters in Wyoming to that point, are they, are they publishing stuff about like the good work that your agency is doing?
- [17:58]
Angie Bruce
We have a lot of reporters who are. There is a lot of feel good stories because so many people are just interested, you know, is it because we trapped and moved a grizzly bear because it was doing damage versus, you know, black footed ferrets out on this landscape and what they're doing. So great interest in just the good stories. But then the challenges are always in the paper as well, you know, because that is what makes the headlines. But I would say there is a good balance for sure. Definitely. And that. And people just enjoy the feel good stories as well.
- [18:38]
Larry Potterfield
Well, there's no such thing as bad press number one. But you know, one of the things that we find, one of the things that we do from a blood origins perspective is state agencies are very, it's, I guess it's not like inherent in the DNA to pat themselves on the back. I think that state agencies do phenomenal work. They do phenomenal work with PR dollars, they do phenomenal work on non game species. And the reason why an agency sometimes takes heat for going, oh, you guys just cater to hunters. That's all you guys do. It's just hunters and fishes is because I don't think again, this, it's probably not again not inherent to the DNA of the agency to go, no, no, no, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Have you seen all this work that we've done? Have you seen the black foot of ferret work we've done? Have you seen the songbird work that we've done? Have you seen the endangered snake? I don't know if you have endangered snakes in Wyoming. Endangered snake work that we do in Wyoming. And they were like, oh no, we haven't well, typically it's because we. We're not very good story. The state agencies typically aren't very good storytellers or self promoting. Hey, look at good job we've done.
- [19:52]
Angie Bruce
You're exactly right. Probably just service employees in general, you know, state and government employees. I think that is just a widespread thing telling our story. Yes, we work very hard at it and we could always do better. I think it's really important about how we tell our story though, as you know.
- [20:17]
Larry Potterfield
Don't you have a background of external affairs?
- [20:20]
Angie Bruce
I do, and I started my career with accounting, being a naturalist doing environmental education. I still go back to that time. I only did it for a year right out of college. But the thing it taught me is know your audience and know what you want to achieve through the conversation. So before I do any presentation, go into anything, what do I want this audience to take away? And then how can I get them to understand the information? As scientists, as biologists, you know better than anybody. We often talk in a way that the general public does not understand, or we intimidate people because we're very scientific and we have a hard time talking in a way that folks understand. You'll even see this sometimes in our press releases and so forth. I can't give you a better example than. I was on vacation with my sisters, um, and I used the word riperian. We're on a hike, and I said, oh, that riparian area. And they made fun of me for the next 10 minutes.
- [21:30]
Larry Potterfield
You know what, what are sisters for? Right? Or friends for? Like that?
- [21:34]
Angie Bruce
Exactly. They're like, why are you using that term? And you know, that to me was a pretty common term. Instead of saying, well, that water area down there, see that stream and the land around it. But that's what we need to do better. As a scientist, our goal should not be to impress, not to sound smart, but to achieve what we want to achieve, which is usually to educate and inform the public.
- [22:01]
Larry Potterfield
An uninformed public.
- [22:02]
Angie Bruce
An uninformed public. And if that means talking in a way that is out of our norm, different than what we talk to our coworkers, we should.
- [22:12]
Larry Potterfield
Yeah, look it, it. You're nailing it on the head. It's what, it's what I do every single day. And I have lots of people come, I have lots of people who are like, I don't appre. I don't, I don't appreciate your, your approach. I don't like it. I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna apologize for what we Are. And I was like, I'm not apologizing either. But I'm in essentially the marketing space. I'm in the marketing space for the hunting narrative and how it impacts benefits and people, wildlife and communities. That's what I'm in. And I'm trying to communicate that to non hunters.
- [22:52]
Angie Bruce
Yes.
- [22:52]
Larry Potterfield
So if I decide to use the word harvest and not kill doesn't mean I'm a snowflake, doesn't mean that I'm whatever. It just means that the. I'm tailoring what I say to the audience that's about to receive it. It's not built for you. The person you that's arguing with me like, you're not supposed to use that word. It wasn't built for you. I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to over here. And if these people, we want them to hear us.
- [23:22]
Angie Bruce
Yeah.
- [23:23]
Larry Potterfield
We have to change. And it's okay to change marketing one on one. You market to the audience that you're going to say things, build things, show things to the audience that you really want.
- [23:35]
Angie Bruce
Yeah. You just nailed it. I love everything you said because we do that. Right? We. You see that every day. And you know, I can think of situation after situation where we'll be at a meeting. And in Wyoming, we bring stakeholders around the table all the time. But if we stay in our clusters and just talk about our hunting stories with our favorite person beside us and not engage others and tell them in a different way what we experienced, we're not doing our job because we're our own worst enemy. You know, looking down the road in 10 years and 20 years, that conversation is not going to get easier. We know it's only getting harder. Wyoming is an exception to that. I think we have it really good here. People in the majority just really accept hunting, even if they are not for it and don't or participate. It's what we want.
- [24:40]
Larry Potterfield
At the end of the day, it doesn't matter.
- [24:41]
Angie Bruce
It totally is. Yep. Yeah. We just. We want the support and the understanding. We don't have to make everyone a hunter.
- [24:49]
Larry Potterfield
Nor. Nor should we. Right. Because we don't have a resource that's abundant enough for everybody to be a hunter. And again, if you look back in time at hunter gatherer tribes, not everybody was a hunter and friends. You know, you talk about your friends teasing you. I have been teased and I apologize. I don't know the answer to this question. Are there black bears in Wyoming and can you hunt black bears in Wyoming?
- [25:14]
Angie Bruce
Yes.
- [25:15]
Larry Potterfield
Okay. I should have known that But I have been accused of being a berry picker when it comes to bear hunting because I've yet to harvest a bear. I have hunted bears for almost 80 hours in a tree sand, and I've yet to kill a bear. And so they're like, robbie, there's just certain people in this world that are hunters. There's certain people in this world that are gatherers, I. E. Berry pickers. And you happen to be one of them when it comes to bear hunting. And so to do a funny story, but to the point, like, not everybody in the tribe was a hunter. There was a very few select people that were hunters. It'd be interesting to know like, how many percentage wise of the community were hunters and how that marries up with today's society of, you know, at a maximum, we're probably 9, 10, 11, 12%. You know, we're 4% today. So.
- [26:11]
Angie Bruce
Yeah, definitely. Very valid point.
- [26:16]
Larry Potterfield
So, um, Angie, one of the things that you've done and maybe tied into sort of all the things that we've talked about, rhetoric, narrative, policy, politics, science on the ground, you were very involved in the Wyoming's wildlife and roadways initiative. Um, what was that, that whole initiative around.
- [26:39]
Angie Bruce
Yeah. So definitely, you know, in a real quick sentence, it's about making our drivers safer and our wildlife safer.
- [26:50]
Larry Potterfield
Are you talking about bypasses and things that go under the convoys, the conveyances under roads and stuff like that?
- [26:58]
Angie Bruce
Yeah, making safe passage across the road for wildlife. We've mostly focused on big game at first and had lots of statistics with mule deer, antelope, elk, moose, sheep. In Wyoming, we have a lot of data that we know exactly where they're trying to cross. So we can put in structures either over the highway or under that can get them safely there. And you know, we've. We have the science to start there to know that these structures work. They're 85 to 90% effective.
- [27:34]
Larry Potterfield
So the science to know exactly where these guys are crossing the roads.
- [27:39]
Angie Bruce
Exactly. You know, it's hard to do in every state. So, like looking at whitetails in Iowa, very difficult because there isn't a pinch point. There's not a place.
- [27:48]
Larry Potterfield
Well, who's coloring, who's collaring whitetail deer? Or, you know, maybe the data is how many whitetail deer have been knocked over on this part of the road. Right, right, exactly.
- [27:56]
Angie Bruce
So some, some states have extremely high collision rates, but the solutions are not as clear where in Wyoming the solutions are clear and they're extremely effective. They're also extremely expensive as well. Whenever you're Talking about highway construction, you reach a whole nother level of expensive, however they work and people are bought in. Now when we are talking about words and words matter, we since have changed our roadway initiative and now we've rebranded it to talk about the bigger picture. And it's, it's a Movement Matters campaign. So the idea is, if it's fish, if it's big game, if it's invertebrate, whatever it is, maintaining the movement of wildlife is the priority because when they move, then they can get from winter habitat to summer habitat, so then get to those core forage habitats that they need on each end. Or if it's fish, you know, the spawning habitat. So that movement, that connection is really what we're trying to sustain.
- [29:07]
Larry Potterfield
Especially in today's world where habitat is so fragmented, you've got your human fingerprint constantly being pushed on it. It's those connected pieces between the habitats that make the difference.
- [29:17]
Angie Bruce
Exactly. We're converting fences so your normal 5 wire stranded ag fence, you know, making them wildlife friendly. Antelope.
- [29:29]
Larry Potterfield
Oh, I saw this, I saw this film. It was unwired. I just watched it like 10 days ago.
- [29:34]
Angie Bruce
Yes, incredible.
- [29:35]
Larry Potterfield
Taking the bottom strand out, putting it not as a barbed wire and the antelope can go under instead of hopping over it.
- [29:43]
Angie Bruce
Yes. Antelope do not like to go over, except if it's over a highway, but over a fence they do not. They're not naturally jumpers, so they need 16 inches of clearance to go under smoothly. And of course you try going under a fence, you would scratch up your back. So you put a smooth wire on the bottom and then you look at the height of the top one. Because even though deer go over, we've all seen deer get caught in fences. So the lower that top wire, the better as well. So we again, movement matters way that they can move easily and quickly with less stress across the landscape. If that is a road overpass or underpass or modifying a fence, identifying what the barriers are and then working to reduce the barriers.
- [30:30]
Larry Potterfield
It was like again, all the things that we've been talking about just I remember watching again, I watched it maybe 10 days ago and I would suggest everybody listening to this go and watch Unwired. It's about pronghorn in the red desert of Wyoming. And the number one, I'm a scientist, so data, I love data. But in the movie it has this data that shows all the colored antelope and you immediately start seeing these fences, these boundaries. Right. And so then they went to this one farmer and the one farmer was like, again, to your point, like, your people in Wyoming love the resource. It's in your newspapers every single day. And it was approached to him, obviously, he got shown the map to say, hey, you didn't like that winter kill, right? It didn't look good. It doesn't smell good. Nope. He's like, but I hate to tell you this, but your fence is the problem. And I think him just being a wildlife lover, obviously he lives on the farm, he does what he does. He probably loves to hunt. He's like, damn. Okay, I need to do something that's. That was cool. Like, to see the data. And it's like, all right, this fence. It's this fence right here. It's this one.
- [31:41]
Angie Bruce
Yeah. You know, that was an incredible way to tell a story, you know, and there's nothing more convincing than to see those antelope bunched up at a pinch point. Right. Can't getting over the fence. And then you. You take those other stressors that they fill out on the landscape, which was the worst winter we've had probably in recorded history. 22, 23, where movement in, getting to any available forage that was not covered with snow was so essential. And having those animals out there with the collars on so we could show how impactful the fences were, we all know it, we've all sort of seen it, but, boy, did that paint just a clear picture for folks. And then obviously showed the need. Because of that, we have been able to fundraise over a million dollars for that project.
- [32:34]
Larry Potterfield
So cool.
- [32:35]
Angie Bruce
We put extra people on the ground. We have so much interest, we can't do it fast enough. The landowners are. We have a list of landowners waiting. And, you know, this is something we've been working on for years, but the momentum is there. It's building the interest, and it's super exciting because, again, it's something that we can control. So much in wildlife management world, we cannot control. But when you have wildlife crossing projects over highways, when you have these fence issues, it is something that we. We know is influence. We can change it, we can work on it, and we have immediate, immediate return. So it's. It's extremely exciting.
- [33:19]
Larry Potterfield
The, the overpasses of highways are interesting, you know, because they. They almost blend into the landscape. They look pretty cool. They've got rocks and they've got sometimes grass and trees and stuff on it. But as you said, they're super expensive. How, how does Wyoming. Where does the money come from to do those kinds of things?
- [33:38]
Angie Bruce
It takes a village you know, we've come from all sorts of things, so our commission, our Game and Fish Commission, has stepped up and helped fund them, usually giving anywhere from half a million to a couple million for each project.
- [33:52]
Larry Potterfield
Where's that money coming out of? Is that coming out of PR dollars?
- [33:54]
Angie Bruce
Is that coming out of PR and hunter dollars? Absolutely. And then we've been very fortunate to have several things in here. We have a donation box. When you buy a hunting license, you can donate. Doesn't bring in a lot, but every little bit helps. I think we were the first and only state that has a conservation plate, so a special license plate that you can buy where the funds go in to a pot for wildlife crossings. So a lot of small things, but, you know, those things do more almost for education and awareness of the project. But we've had lots of funders step up. So our number one project we're working on right now is about a $28 million project, and so far, we're almost 28 mil. Yes, yes. For one stretch. But we've had.
- [34:46]
Larry Potterfield
What does that mean? Like, what. What encompasses in that. In that one stretch?
- [34:50]
Angie Bruce
So that one stretch is going to be an overpass and then several underpasses for mule deer, but then also bighorn sheep as well, up in the Dubois area in northwest Wyoming. So very exciting how we work in the state is. Back in 2017, we had a summit. So we brought folks to the table. Everyone, legislators, laypeople, federal partners, state partners, NGOs. We came up with a statewide comprehensive plan. 240 sites in the state were identified as hotspots, spots to work on. Then we did everything. We prioritized based on safety and wildlife. So we came up with a score, we publicized it. We allow anybody to take a project and run with it, but then those really big ones that cost millions, we basically always have three in the works. And we. We sort of just sort of chip away at that top one until we get it funded and then move down again. Luckily, since I've been here in. In 2017, we've had, you know, we're on five. The fifth.
- [36:00]
Larry Potterfield
So how many millions. How many millions do you think has been put into these over the five? I know. I didn't want to. I told you I wouldn't back you into a corner.
- [36:07]
Angie Bruce
Before we started this podcast, it is an average that the cheapest1 was 5 million. It was mostly. We used existing agriculture underpasses and we added the fencing component to it, so that was the cheap one.
- [36:21]
Larry Potterfield
So the underpasses that you must have to funnel them. Right. You must have to have some sort of like fencing funnel into it.
- [36:28]
Angie Bruce
Yeah. So we'll put up high fence to funnel them to the underpasses or the overpass. And then we also put jump outs because we know they get stuck and so we have to have the ability for them to jump out if they get stuck in the highway median. So, yeah, about 28 million to 5 million has been the range for all of them. And we've also been very fortunate that our state legislators a few years ago allocated 10 million to us, which was wonderful. And then we've also relied on our partners at dot, Department of Transportation, and then for the infrastructure bill under the Biden Administration, the Federal Highway Administration crossing pilot program, there was 350 million put into that pot on the first round of allocations. We got the largest project funded at I think it was 24.5 million.
- [37:27]
Larry Potterfield
Amazing.
- [37:28]
Angie Bruce
That was straight federal funding.
- [37:30]
Larry Potterfield
Sheesh.
- [37:31]
Angie Bruce
Yeah. So we, like I said, we really relied on our comprehensive program of the state. So some states pick a project, go one to another, but. But we've got a plan to last us over a hundred years of it. Should he add these? So exciting stuff. Lots of interest. And you know, I think even, you know, I think early on in the initiative, the governor even had one for the license plates. Like let's get 2,000 plates bought by the end of 2020, you know, so we're always looking for things to educate, promote them and, and look at new funding options for them as well.
- [38:10]
Larry Potterfield
So when do you think this 28 million won will be done? That has one big overpass. Is it an engineering design?
- [38:16]
Angie Bruce
Right now it is not been fully engineered. There's a pretty good understanding of the design needed, so I think we could engineer it in a few months and put it out for bid. We did apply for the Infrastructure act funds for the second round. Did not get it. They did not want to give Wyoming probably the next big one. Again, we are hoping that that money frees up or there's other federal highway fund opportunities and that we, you know, it is really hard to do it in a state like Wyoming where we have 600,000 people. However, we have lots of people coming to the state and going through the state. So it is really hard for the state to do it on its own.
- [38:59]
Larry Potterfield
Yeah.
- [38:59]
Angie Bruce
So yeah, we really need a sustainable funding source federal that can help us move everything forward.
- [39:06]
Larry Potterfield
Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of people don't actually understand if you've never lived in the world of construction and I didn't prior to the restoration work that I did on the BP oils bill, you actually have no idea what it takes to go from an idea to finished project.
- [39:25]
Angie Bruce
Yeah.
- [39:25]
Larry Potterfield
Like you think it's just like, oh, boom, boom, boom, let's start building. No, like the building part is like the fun part and that's like the last 10% of the project.
- [39:34]
Angie Bruce
Yes.
- [39:35]
Larry Potterfield
To get your engineering, environmental engineering in place, you know, your, your design plans, then your 30% design plans, your 60% design plans, your final plans, then you have to put bid specs together. You have to have construction managers over the bid specs. You have to have, you know, you put them all out for bid for construction. It's just. It is such a process. Sheesh.
- [40:00]
Angie Bruce
It is in one. All those pieces. And one of the most critical things that we try to do at the very beginning and up front is to get the landowner spot in because we couldn't do it without.
- [40:11]
Larry Potterfield
It's not public land. Right.
- [40:14]
Angie Bruce
Not all.
- [40:15]
Larry Potterfield
Worse. It's even worse. You have to either buy the land, put an easement on it. Oh, my gosh.
- [40:22]
Angie Bruce
Yeah. We've had incredible success of getting landowners bought into the process and right there involved with us. So we haven't had any hiccups there. But again, we always start with that component to make sure it's going to be conducive for folks.
- [40:37]
Larry Potterfield
Yeah, it is the one that will trip you up.
- [40:40]
Angie Bruce
Yeah.
- [40:40]
Larry Potterfield
I remember, I remember doing an oyster reef restoration project and the coastline had. It was actually a living shoreline project of a coastline that had eroded 1300ft. And so we're going to build a living shoreline. We did all the engineering, did all the permitting. And during the permitting process, and then in the due diligence of the permitting process was a land due diligence on who owned the land. Secretary of State owns the bottoms. Yada, yada, yada. Well, turns out the bottom still had a parcel that had been underwater for, yeah, 26 years or something silly. Then it belonged to someone and it halted the project. A $50 million project, because there was a small half acre of land that was again, underwater. It wasn't land anymore and it just, it was land ownership. You know, how many people own the land? But again, living in a state like Wyoming, given how much they love their wildlife, you know, it's not easy, but it makes things easier.
- [41:51]
Angie Bruce
Yes, it does. Yeah. Again, it's one of the things we love to work on for that reason is because I don't know if I've heard a single complaint about wildlife crossings. So it is something.
- [42:04]
Larry Potterfield
Yeah. What would be the disadvantage of doing something like that?
- [42:09]
Angie Bruce
The only thing that we're really cognizant, and that's why the landowner piece is so critical in getting the local counties involved, is because. Let's think about this. Interstate 80 gets thousands of vehicles a day. It's four lane, five lane in some places, soon to be six. Maybe wildlife cannot cross it or not cross it safely. So if you take a barrier that's been up for years and years and years, and you open up that barrier. So let's say you allow elk over an overpass.
- [42:42]
Larry Potterfield
I see what you're getting.
- [42:43]
Angie Bruce
You at one time maybe had 2,000 elk on this property. And now what are you doing?
- [42:49]
Larry Potterfield
You're moving them out?
- [42:51]
Angie Bruce
Yeah. So these people might be hunters, landowners, and they're like, oh, my gosh, you took my elk. And these people are like, well, maybe they want them. Or maybe they're like, now my pasture land is affected by all these elk moving in. So we have to, again, work very carefully with landowners and others about the nuances of what change changes. This can occur with wildlife movement at different times of year and what it might look like.
- [43:20]
Larry Potterfield
Yeah, that's a great, great point. That's a great point. Angie, how long have you been the director now? Like, two months, three months?
- [43:27]
Angie Bruce
Oh, I. I started in September, so.
- [43:30]
Larry Potterfield
Oh, okay, okay. Much longer than that. Much longer than that. What. What does the future hold for you? Like, in. In terms of, like, what do you want to do? You're the director now. Like, you know, I have a vision. You know, you have this, like, charge, like, hey, this is what I want to see.
- [43:47]
Angie Bruce
Definitely. There's always things on our mind, right? The same things that we've been working on. One thing we are starting to work on is a mule deer strategy. If we could increase the mule deer population in this state, it would be incredible.
- [44:02]
Larry Potterfield
Dare I say, does Wyoming have, I don't know if I should call them wild or feral horses?
- [44:10]
Angie Bruce
We do. We do have, but we've had some success there that other states can learn from. So we have a reservation in the state that's about the size of Yellowstone, so a large land mass. Two tribes last year, oh, I think they removed 5,000 horses. They got money from our state general fund. We also assisted. We let them house the horses on our property before they were removed and trucked out of the area. I think they were taken to Mexico to some processing there, but really set an example of what could be. They're a sovereign nation, so they did not have to work through the BLM in order to do a horse roundup. So, yes, wild horses on the landscape are part of that.
- [45:02]
Larry Potterfield
Have you seen. When did that happen? Last year, Two years ago?
- [45:05]
Angie Bruce
Yes, about a year and a half. Two years ago. It took a few years.
- [45:09]
Larry Potterfield
Have they seen any response of their mule deer?
- [45:12]
Angie Bruce
Absolutely. They. You.
- [45:15]
Larry Potterfield
I am not surprised.
- [45:16]
Angie Bruce
The tribes give members give such a wonderful presentation and show the before and after effects on the fridge. Wow. And to listen to them. I was just at the North America Native American Wildlife Society meeting that was hosted in Wyoming in Riverton, and they really talked about it. They talked about before and after and what they saw on the landscape and how the big game moved back in. So incredibly powerful. You know, it comes back to making that habitat the most resilient as possible because that's what we can control. We'd like to say that we control wildlife diseases. We don't. That is a tough one. We also don't control a lot of the stresses on them, such as weather, development, human activity as much.
- [46:08]
Larry Potterfield
But you can't do that. That's not the agency's job. The agency's job is things that you can control.
- [46:14]
Angie Bruce
Exactly. So we're focused on habitat resilience. How do we make that habitat the most productive? So. So when we have extremely bad winters, it gives the mule deer and other species the best chance of survival. That's what we can control and that's what we put a lot of emphasis in, as well as understanding the wildlife. Right. Movements, coloring, what habitats they're using, when. But this vision for a mule deer strategy in Wyoming is bigger than game and fish. It is about all those stresses and. And then what could help address them. You know, it's sort of like how we work with industry in this state. We're very much incorporated into development, whether it be energy development, oil and gas, wind, solar, hydrogen. We work with proponents early on in the process to build in a way that keeps wildlife sustainable in the state. You know, a lot of folks think, you know, energy dominance, oh, no, this is going to be a negative for wildlife. And it can be. And there's evidence where it can be. However, our approach in Wyoming isn't to say no. Our approach is let's do it the right way. And so we work very closely to do that in this state. And we, like I said, we still have healthy population of wildlife, so we're doing something right.
- [47:41]
Larry Potterfield
Yeah, I love that. Let's do it the right way. I think I'm going to title your podcast that I love that. I love that horse thing. We're about to go into Arizona and start a wild horse documentary on the impacts of wild horses. And before we wrap this up, I do want to say if there's anything we can do, Blood Origins can do, I can do to pat you on the back more. We're very good at what we do and would love to shine a spotlight on what you guys do more if we can. Yeah, I'm a big fan of Wyoming. I did it's funny, I have my only connection to Wyoming was a couple of extension. I bet you. I wonder if Casey is still at the University of Wyoming. He was an extension professor. He was like a dean of the extension professor in and we got on like a house on fire through a leadership course and he was my only like true Wyoming guy that I knew. And then I had seven antelope points in Wyoming that I strategically created to go in with my seven points of Montana. I was going to do this epic road trip on on antelope hunting and something happened with my consulting company that allowed did not allow me to go and I lost literally 14 points down the drain. But man, thank you, Angie. I appreciate your time. I apologize for us, you know, not getting together earlier and schedules are just what they are. But Jeff, congratulations. You're the first female director of the Wyoming Game and Fish. You should be proud of yourself. You've got I love the the meal deer vision. I love the fact that it's beyond the borders of the Game and Fish agency as most wildlife management issues typically are. And yeah, I love the conversation. We should do it again one day.
- [49:38]
Angie Bruce
Yeah, that sounds great. Thank you for continuing to help tell our story. So much appreciated.
- [49:44]
Larry Potterfield
Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening. As always, leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.
- [49:57]
Angie Bruce
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- [50:33]
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