Episode 575 - Andy Fraser || The Next 56 Hours Of Madness

Summary

Blood Origins Podcast Summary Title: Blood Origins
Host/Author: Blood Origins Inc.
Episode: 575 - Andy Fraser || The Next 56 Hours Of Madness
Release Date: July 15, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 575 of Blood Origins, titled "The Next 56 Hours Of Madness," host Robbie engages in an in-depth conversation with wildlife veterinarian Andy Fraser. The episode delves into the complexities and challenges of relocating cheetahs from South Africa to Mozambique, offering listeners a behind-the-scenes look at the dedication and logistical prowess required for effective conservation.

Meet Andy Fraser

Andy Fraser, a renowned wildlife veterinarian from South Africa, serves as the primary vet for the Punyami Cheetah Project. He holds a veterinary degree from Honestaput Veterinary School, the top veterinary institution in South Africa. Alongside his partner Maria, Andy manages Roeburg Veterinary Services, playing a crucial role in cheetah conservation efforts.

The Cheetah Relocation Mission

The core of the episode revolves around the intense 20-hour operation to translocate four cheetahs from South Africa to Mozambique. Andy and Robbie recount their experiences, highlighting the physical and emotional toll of the mission.

• Preparation and Launch: At 11:30 PM, amidst fatigue and minimal sleep, Andy and Robbie initiate the podcast to capture the raw reality of their conservation work. Andy emphasizes the profound reason behind starting Blood Origins: "I wanted to convey the truth about hunting" (01:04).

• Journey Breakdown: The relocation involved:

  • 10-hour Drive: Transporting cheetahs from home to the reserve.
  • 2-hour Reserve Operations: Assisting with black rhinos and preparing cheetahs.
  • 10-hour Return Trip: Heading back to Royburg post-relocation (06:03).

• Challenges Faced: Unexpected hurdles included severe weather, vehicle breakdowns, and accidents. For instance, at 14:17, Andy describes a vehicle crash caused by miscommunication, necessitating quick problem-solving to keep the mission on track.

Logistical Hurdles and Solutions

The podcast details several logistical challenges encountered during the mission:

• Vehicle Reliability: Mechanical issues like radiator failures and diesel leaks posed significant threats. Andy narrates how a Toyota Land Cruiser managed a radiator cap issue by improvising with cold water, ensuring the vehicle could continue the journey (15:48).

• Time Extensions: Originally planned for a 20-hour operation, unforeseen delays extended the mission to 30-35 hours, heightening the stress and urgency of the task (12:43).

• Team Coordination: Despite setbacks, the team's ability to adapt was crucial. Justin, a team member, played a pivotal role in maintaining focus and reallocating resources swiftly after accidents (14:29).

Cheetah Conservation Insights

Andy Fraser provides a comprehensive overview of cheetah translocation strategies and their implications for conservation:

• Mortality Rates: Translocation projects typically face a 40-50% mortality rate within the first year due to various factors such as predation by lions and hyenas, disease, and environmental adaptation challenges (21:35).

• Coalition Dynamics: Introducing multiple cheetahs fosters stronger social structures, enhancing survivability. For example, a coalition of three cheetahs can better defend against larger predators, although it may pose challenges for females facing group aggression (17:54).

• Habitat Adaptation: Cheetahs moved from dry South African regions to Mozambique's different environment must adapt to new ecosystems, which may impact their survival and reproductive success (21:11).

Human-Wildlife Conflict

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the interactions between wildlife and human communities:

• Indian vs. South African Models: Andy contrasts the Indian cheetah conservation model, where cheetahs often roam into villages, with South Africa's approach, which relies on robust fencing and rapid response teams to manage wildlife movement (28:17). He explains how cultural and infrastructural differences necessitate varied conservation strategies.

• Community Involvement: Effective conservation requires that local communities benefit from wildlife preservation. Andy stresses the importance of "creating habitat blocks where communities see direct benefits from wildlife presence" (54:39).

• Perception and Tolerance: Public perceptions significantly influence conservation outcomes. In regions where communities perceive wildlife as threats to livestock, tolerance diminishes, complicating conservation efforts (27:07).

Future of Conservation Funding

Andy Fraser and Robbie discuss the sustainable funding models essential for long-term conservation success:

• Diverse Funding Sources: Conservation areas may rely on a mix of hunting, ecotourism, philanthropic donations, and government funding. Each region requires a tailored approach based on its unique socio-economic and ecological context (35:12).

• Income Generation: Ensuring that wildlife species contribute economically to their habitats can incentivize local support. For instance, cheetahs can serve as umbrella species, attracting anti-poaching efforts that benefit broader ecosystem conservation (47:20).

Wild Dogs vs. Cheetahs

The conversation also touches on the comparative conservation challenges of wild dogs and cheetahs:

• Reproductive Strategies: Wild dogs have high reproductive rates, leading to rapid population growth that can overwhelm habitat capacities. This makes managing their numbers more complex compared to cheetahs (39:41).

• Human Tolerance: Packs of wild dogs are more noticeable and may be less tolerated by local communities compared to solitary or small-group cheetahs. This impacts funding and conservation efforts (39:52).

Global Conservation Perspectives

Andy Fraser offers a broader view on global conservation practices and the necessity for collaborative efforts:

• Regional Differences: Conservation strategies must account for regional differences in wildlife behavior, human interactions, and ecological conditions. A one-size-fits-all approach is ineffective (34:52).

• Collaborative Efforts: Effective conservation requires reducing bureaucratic barriers and fostering international cooperation. Andy envisions streamlined processes where governments and organizations can swiftly coordinate translocations and habitat protections through efficient communication channels (50:22).

• Critical Timelines: Conservation projects often operate within finite timelines. Success hinges on timely implementation and the ability to adapt to unforeseen challenges, ensuring that initiatives remain viable and impactful (23:37).

Concluding Thoughts

The episode concludes with reflections on the future of conservation:

• Adaptive Strategies: As human expansion continues to encroach on wildlife habitats, adaptive and flexible conservation strategies become paramount. Andy emphasizes the need for innovative solutions that balance wildlife preservation with human development (52:33).

• Community Empowerment: Empowering local communities to take ownership of conservation efforts ensures sustainable and mutually beneficial outcomes. Andy underscores that "communities need to believe in and benefit from conservation initiatives" to foster lasting support (54:57).

• Hope for the Future: Despite the myriad challenges, Andy remains optimistic about the potential for successful conservation through dedication, collaboration, and adaptive management practices.

Notable Quotes

• Andy Fraser (01:04): "There’s a reason why I started Blood Origins, and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting."

• Andy Fraser (14:29): "Justin was just like, guys, hey, get the crates off. Put them on the vehicle that's got the luggage. Put the luggage on another vehicle's roof."

• Andy Fraser (21:35): "The average mortality of movement is up to 50% in the first 12 months, which is normal."

• Andy Fraser (28:17): "The Indian conservation model is very different to Africa and even more so different to southern Africa."

• Andy Fraser (34:39): "Each conservation area has got to find a system that works for that individual area."

• Andy Fraser (54:57): "Communities need to believe in it. It’s got to be something that they want."

Final Thoughts

Blood Origins Episode 575 offers a candid and comprehensive exploration of the intricate processes involved in wildlife conservation, particularly focusing on cheetah translocation. Through Andy Fraser's expertise and real-world experiences, listeners gain valuable insights into the triumphs and tribulations faced by conservationists striving to protect vulnerable species amidst evolving environmental and societal landscapes.

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Note: Timestamps are provided in MM:SS format and correspond to the transcript sections referenced.

Transcript

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[Andy Fraser]

Fraser is a wildlife veterinarian out of South Africa. He has been our primary vet for the Punyami Cheetah Project. Andy Fraser got his veterinary degree from Honestaput, which is the number one veterinary school in South Africa. Just a incredible reputation. Andy runs Royburg Veterinary Services with his partner Maria. And Andy, as I said, has been the number one vet for us in our cheetah project. And so in the latest cheetah relocation move, Andy and I put the podcast headsets on at about 11:30 at night. You'll, you'll hear us. We're a little bit loopy because we've been going for about 20 hours thus far and we've got about 30 minutes of sleep in front of us before we go for another, oh, 10 to 14 hours. And so we want to lay down a podcast just to give you an idea of the sense of what we do and how we do it and the lengths that we go to when it comes to conservation. So enjoy this little bit of a loopy conversation between Andy and I at 11:30 at night, sitting in a private airport terminal in Johannesburg, waiting to translocate four cheetahs from South Africa to Mozambique. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins, and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting.

[Robbie]

It brings awareness to non hunters that.

[Mike Axelrod]

It'S more than just killing animals. How do I start it?

[Robbie]

Brittany My name.

[Mike Axelrod]

Does my hair look okay?

[Robbie]

My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too.

[Andy Fraser]

Braxton you said something in the car to me.

[Robbie]

You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be.

[Mike Axelrod]

And.

[Robbie]

And a. A feminist that works for a nonprofit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter. Stop breathing so hard. Yeah. Is it that hectic that we're breathing too hard?

[Mike Axelrod]

No, that was not breathing that hard.

[Robbie]

I don't know. Are you unfit? Aren't you training for the Comrades Marathon or something like that?

[Mike Axelrod]

Comrades is actually funny. I don't feel fit when I'm ready to run it.

[Robbie]

How many? It's a marathon, right? 26 miles.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, dude, it's 90 kilometers.

[Robbie]

Okay, how many miles is that?

[Mike Axelrod]

50 something miles.

[Robbie]

Yeah, you're breathing hard into the. Just bring that thing away from your, like, nose.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, see, I'm used to flying with a helicopter headset. And then you got to have it.

[Robbie]

Really close, you know? 11:30 in the evening. You should have like, a resting heartbeat of like, 40. If you read. If you go into the Comrades. All right, hold on. Let's check. 90 kilometers. Kilometers to miles. Why do they call it the Comrades Marathon then, if it's not a marathon? Have you ever asked that question?

[Mike Axelrod]

Because it's an ultramarathon.

[Robbie]

Well, then why don't they call it the Comrades Ultramarathon?

[Mike Axelrod]

Because that sounds stupid.

[Robbie]

Well, that's what it is. 55 miles, dude. 55 miles. Have you run it before?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yes, this is my fourth one.

[Robbie]

Your fourth one?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yes, sir.

[Robbie]

Why? Do you. Do you just love pain?

[Mike Axelrod]

I think the last. No, I don't love pain.

[Robbie]

Is the Comrades marathon not painful?

[Mike Axelrod]

No, it is painful. Even a marathon is painful.

[Robbie]

Just to warn everybody, this podcast may go in several directions because it is 11:30 at night. I woke up at 4:30 this morning, and at 3:30, which is in four hours time, we'll be flying four cheetahs to Mozambique.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yes, sir.

[Robbie]

So it may get a little wonky. Ultramarathon pain.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's nothing like the pain of 50 hours in the car between T and Y.

[Robbie]

So the last time you moved cheetahs, you flew into Mozambique. 12 cheetahs in. In an embraer, right?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yes, sir.

[Robbie]

You. I heard you slept on top of the cheetahs.

[Mike Axelrod]

I had a very brief nap in a 50 hour trip, and somehow a photo of it made it into a newspaper.

[Robbie]

So let's rewind the clock. Let's do the last cheetah the first 12 that we moved. Talk through. Like, I don't need details. I just need like the 50,000 foot view of what you did in 50 hours.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay. We traveled about 3,000 kilometers by road.

[Robbie]

Okay, no, that's not helping.

[Mike Axelrod]

What?

[Robbie]

Give me hours. Like how long did it take you to drive there?

[Mike Axelrod]

10 hours to get the cheetahs. 10 hours from home to the reserve that we loaded five cheaters at.

[Robbie]

Five cheaters drove. How long were you in the reserve for? 2 hours.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, so we helped out with a black rhino that morning. Okay. And then did the cheetah that afternoon then. So the cheater was probably an hour and a half worth of work there.

[Robbie]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

While the cheetah were on a separate.

[Robbie]

Vehicle, did you charge me for an hour and a half that day or did you charge me for nine hours a day? Do I need to go check the invoice?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, you're welcome to. So. But the 20 hours of traveling is free. Okay, that's friends in Van Gogh conservation rate.

[Robbie]

Okay. Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

So then 10 hours back. 10 hours back. While the cheetahs were traveling to the airport in Johannesburg, we traveled straight back to Royburg, which is where we left from.

[Andy Fraser]

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[Mike Axelrod]

To then do the four tutors that were in quarantine. Five tutors that were in quarantine in Rooiburg. Okay, and then so that was 4am in the morning. We left Roeburg at about 7am in the morning and arrived at Ortambo at about 10 o'. Clock.

[Robbie]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

Went through all the inspections at the airport and then hopped onto the plane with a 12 cheetah. Um, because Mark Toff bought the other two up from Natal, flew into Tet in Mozambique.

[Robbie]

How long was that flight? Was a quick flight, yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Hour and a half, two and a half hours, I think.

[Robbie]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, two and a half hours.

[Robbie]

Not like the four and a Half that we're going to experience tomorrow.

[Mike Axelrod]

A smaller plane.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

So, yeah, four o' clock in the afternoon, I think we arrived in Tet, which was quite a spectacle. Offloading the 12 Cheetah crates onto, I think four different Buc EE's with two support Buckies.

[Robbie]

And all the vehicles were on the Runway?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yes, sir.

[Robbie]

Had they all pulled onto the Runway?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. Did you have to? Like, the plane landed and they're kind of like six vehicles reversed up to the side of the plane and probably a hundred people in Harvard's vests like.

[Robbie]

Oh, really?

[Mike Axelrod]

Super excited to see the cheetah.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Super keen to help.

[Robbie]

Were the cheetahs growling and like that?

[Mike Axelrod]

No, they were tranquilized nicely.

[Robbie]

Okay. Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

So they go through like ebbs and flows through the process like some.

[Robbie]

So these four cheetah that we have now, they've been tranquilized?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yes.

[Robbie]

When you were putting them in the crates, did you top them up?

[Mike Axelrod]

So Sean used the combination of drugs to anesthetize them.

[Robbie]

Used the same combination that you used?

[Mike Axelrod]

No, different ones. Similar drugs, but different.

[Robbie]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

And then while we're reversing them, we give them a dose of an additional tranquilizer that. But separate to the ones that were in the darts. Different families of drugs. This is a long acting injectable and that'll keep them properly chilled out for at least 48 hours. Oh, cool. Yeah. So they're going to be very chilled out even when they get into the Boma.

[Robbie]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. Because that should be 18 to 20 hours.

[Robbie]

Okay. So now you're at the Ted Airport and you are expecting a quick 14 hour drive through. 14 hour drive.

[Mike Axelrod]

10 to 14 hours.

[Robbie]

10 to 14.

[Mike Axelrod]

To the Zambezi River.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And then we'll cross the Zambezi into the Panyami Reserve.

[Robbie]

Yep.

[Mike Axelrod]

And then cross the Panyami River.

[Robbie]

Yep.

[Mike Axelrod]

Onto the side of the Panama reserve that the boma's in.

[Robbie]

Yep.

[Mike Axelrod]

So that, that was supposed to be from Tet max, sort of 20 hours.

[Robbie]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

Which then ended up being about 30 hours, 35 hours. Yeah. So it was hectic. Yeah, pretty like rough, rugged.

[Robbie]

It was probably was in 20, 20 kilometers an hour. We're literally 20 hours that road.

[Mike Axelrod]

I average. So we did about 150 kilometers on Nice actually. Nice tar road. And then we went off the T into the rural area. I just, I think the roads had had quite a bit of rain on between when Justin was given the estimate and when we actually got onto the roads. And I think having the convoy of vehicles with live cargo on the back is what made us so slow.

[Robbie]

Yeah, sure.

[Mike Axelrod]

And then writing off vehicles in accidents and stuff doesn't speed up.

[Robbie]

You were in the vehicle. How is it that it had the accident. Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

That crashed that rear end of the vehicle in front of us.

[Robbie]

So what happened there, Robbie?

[Mike Axelrod]

It was like 6:30 in the morning. Sun's kind of just coming up. And we had asked the driver to like back off a bit because he didn't know what a following distance is.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And every time the vehicle in front of him would come up to an obstacle, he would have to slam on brakes and you could kind of almost feel the cheetah slide forward in the crate. So I just asked him to back off a bit. And I just. Between my great Portuguese and his shocking English, I don't think he understood what we needed. And yeah, he just rear ended, maybe fell asleep. But we kind of woke up with him sliding downhill into the vehicle in front of him.

[Robbie]

Smashed it.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. Properly. Radiator gone.

[Robbie]

And everybody was super upset, like. And Justin just came and said, move the cheaters, get the cheaters off. Stop complaining. Let's keep going.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, we were kind of not like headless chickens, but we were, we were upset, not focused on the plan. And he was just like, guys, hey, get the crates off. Put them on the vehicle that's got the luggage. Put the luggage on another vehicle's roof. Took about 10 or 15 minutes.

[Robbie]

And that was pretty good Ford planning because Justin was like, we had an extra vehicle like, that would fall. Yeah. So something like this, like a vehicle breaking down. Can't go anymore. Move the tubers.

[Mike Axelrod]

So we had asked him beforehand to always have a spare vehicle. And then so like the moment we got, we had to then start using that spare vehicle. We started making plans to have an additional spare vehicle coming from the other side because that is going to happen, like in that kind of terrain, you're going to have a wheel fall of a vehicle or someone's going to get stuck or I mean, or one of the other vehicles that actually ended up being one of our strongest vehicles in the first 100km on the tar road lost its, like water. Its radiator cap. Yeah. So just like went just at a random stop to check. The cheetah was like puffing in steam and luckily found the radiator cap like jammed in with. Oh my gosh, radiator. Unbelievable vehicle and managed. And because it was a Toyota Land Cruiser, just like filled it up with cold water and started first time and kind of caravan cruise. Jeez, and there was that right at the start of that chaos.

[Robbie]

How much? How many, like, I think Jack has tried to like, write it all down. Like all of the chaos, all of the wrenches.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

Did you have like a fuel line then?

[Mike Axelrod]

We had a second accident within like.

[Robbie]

A hundred, like a kilometer from leaving the airport.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, yeah, yeah. So that same vehicle that overheated was like dripping diesel or like the guy's like, hey, he's got to fill up. Okay. But that doesn't make sense because we told you to fill up before we left. It's like, yeah, but something's not right. While he's like standing at the gas station, it's just leaking diesel all over the concrete floor. So managed to find that one of his fuel pumps was just not connected to. It was supposed to be.

[Robbie]

Jeez.

[Mike Axelrod]

Reconnected that and Yeah, I mean, just like. Because that wasn't the plan. The plan was to fly them, like the route that we're doing now. Yeah.

[Robbie]

To the rust.

[Mike Axelrod]

Supposed to be start to finish. 20 hours.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And then we had rain within a week of the planned translocation. Unseasonal, like late rain. That just was a complete touch wood.

[Robbie]

We have not. There's no rain on the horizon. No rain.

[Mike Axelrod]

If it does rain, it's going to have to start dripping now. And I think this time if we get to Tetan, it's possible pouring with rain. And yeah, Hugo and his guys from Mozambique might have to take over.

[Robbie]

Yes, exactly. Take start helicoptering.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, exactly. We'll make another plan. So. Yeah, but it was hectic. But. But good. In the end, I think we definitely pushed the limits of the cats. But. Yeah. Everything okay?

[Robbie]

Yeah. And we've released 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 cats now.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. With five days ago. Super exciting.

[Robbie]

Three more this weekend.

[Mike Axelrod]

Super exciting.

[Robbie]

The big boys will go out this weekend. And we're all sitting on pins and needles of the, the. The Kalahari boys biggest intimidated, intimidating cheaters of our, of our coalition and all the cheaters that we have serious brutes of cats.

[Mike Axelrod]

And the fact that there's three of them together doesn't bode well for anything else that they come up against.

[Robbie]

Yeah. But if they come against, you know, some females, you know, so like that.

[Mike Axelrod]

That can be good and bad. So sometimes, like an experienced female, if she sees a coalition like that, she'll just submit. Whereas, like a young, inexperienced female might, like, put up a fight and they can bully her to death. And that. That does happen. And. But we obviously hope it doesn't.

[Robbie]

And.

[Mike Axelrod]

But the Increased survivability of the release of a coalition like outweighs, you know, that risk. I mean, if you have a coalition of three that can defend themselves against other, you know, large fe lids and stuff, and then they. Leopards and whatever. So it, it does have its, its benefits. So we hope that.

[Robbie]

And we've got a coalition of three here with us. Yes, that's about to move.

[Mike Axelrod]

Which the. These are like slightly younger cats. So these may.

[Robbie]

But they were together.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, they, they come from two different litters. But then, which is not totally normal that they then formed a coalition. We think that there's some, there's a familial link. So one of the two of them come from one of Dina King's like super moms and the other one comes from one of that mom's daughters. So there are, there is a familial link which obviously somehow socially has allowed them to form a coalition.

[Robbie]

What happens in the wild, do we know? Does the single just come across the double. The two and the two just like, we're not going to fight you, I think join our crew or what?

[Mike Axelrod]

I think without that familial link, they don't, they don't. It's much more rare that for them to form a coalition like that without a familiar link and you'll have a, you know, that's when you get a solitary male. Whereas obviously with, you know, females, they like to be alone, they like to breed alone and raise their cubs alone. But they also socialize with males in their territory. Like, I've got a reserve close up to us where you've got a female with four cubs and two big males. So that whole group, you know, seven cheetah chilling together. It's pretty nice to see you, especially now.

[Robbie]

Interesting.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, especially now the cubs are big and the, the two big males are probably the cub size. But to see the whole group together with no aggression, like it's one big family. So it's pretty interesting.

[Robbie]

Yeah. How many cheetah do you think you've moved?

[Mike Axelrod]

Sure. Probably since I've made Vince, we've probably been involved with at least 150, probably 50 leaving South Africa and about a hundred within South Africa. Yeah.

[Robbie]

Do you think how many Mike Toft? No, Mike. The thing with Mike was Mike. We did a podcast with Mike talking about rhino de horning. He's done 4,000 rhino dehornings.

[Mike Axelrod]

But remember, Mike's had so much time in the saddle and like he's just, he's in, he's in a really Nice rhino dense area where they also dehorning a lot. So you know, a lot of those animals can be repeat, you know, repeat visits in a way if you're dehorning an animal every 18 months or 24 months. Yeah, but still they're awfully, I mean the amounts of experience just getting to work with Mike and because he's just, he's also such a gentleman, you know. So like getting to work with him on that last introduction to Punyam, it was just amazing since it was such a, like mention of a human.

[Robbie]

So you know, you know one of the things that I heard is why are we moving so many cats? You know, why 18? Why not just 6? Why not just 8? And as I understand it, and you, you fill in the gaps here is we know there's going to be mortality. Okay, what's the average mortality of movement? 40%.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, up to, up to 50% in the first 12 months is normal. And remember that's various reasons, eh, Some like we've obviously Panama's a, a big boundary with the Zambezi River. The Zambezi river in that area is full with crocodiles and the things that will eat cheetah that try and cross any kind of waterway. So it can be natural predation, like a crocodile grabbing one of them. It can be anthropogenic stuff like snaring gin traps, you know, think like indiscriminate meat poaching kind of incidences where guys are trying to snare a piece of meat and a cheetah walks through that snare and we can have inter intra species aggression. So cheetah killing cheetah. We can have run ins with lions which is normal anyway where cheetah exist. Lions and spotted hyenas will kill cheetah. That's their biggest cause of mortality as a species. And then obviously disease challenges, things like that. Some of the cats that we're introducing come from the dry parts of South Africa. Obviously Panyame is quite a dry reserve for Mozambique, but being on the, on the boundary of Zambezi, it may be a new environment for those cats. So there'll be some adaptation that they've got to go through.

[Robbie]

So is it just a matter of like having potentially nine on the landscape, surviving eight surviving on the landscape versus two or three and then bringing in another six and having another two or three in the future.

[Mike Axelrod]

So I think aiming, aiming for nine is maybe shooting low. But if you end up with nine after 12 months that are settled and you maybe have a female with a litter of Cubs that's already kind of successful. The moment you've got at least one female breeding, you, You've shown that the, the group is kind of settling and starting to do their thing.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And then. Yes, cheetah translocations historically have been far more successful. When you introduce a subsequent.

[Robbie]

Yeah, but why the, why the big number in the beginning? What was Vince's like? As I understood, it was just, it's flooded.

[Mike Axelrod]

So. So literally, numbers in this kind of game will put you in a much stronger, like, footing to, to achieve success.

[Robbie]

As a start.

[Mike Axelrod]

As a start, yeah, sure. But the, the more cats you can introduce quicker or right at the beginning, the quicker you're going to get to a successful project. And remember, any kind of project like this has got a kind of finite timeline. If you don't get it right, four months, the project itself is also from within is also going to say, okay, cool, we tried, we tried.

[Robbie]

Just not going to happen.

[Mike Axelrod]

Maybe this was a. Maybe this was one that, you know, we stuck our necks out, but we've got to give in and, and give up.

[Robbie]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And because you can't just.

[Robbie]

Which is okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, it is.

[Robbie]

So, I mean, you have to bite the bullet and say, we tried. You know, trying is a good thing. And if it doesn't work. Okay, it doesn't work.

[Mike Axelrod]

Absolutely. Like, I mean, cheetahs should be in that habitat. Obviously they've got quite a hectic human wildlife interface to the south and you've also got an international border just on the west. So if they leave to the west, they enter Zimbabwe and if they cruise down to the south, they enter Zimbabwe but then hit a quite a densely populated rural farming area.

[Robbie]

So.

[Mike Axelrod]

Which can also act in our favor. It might keep the cats in the reserve, but, you know, they're going to have their challenges. And at the beginning, putting in a good number of cheetah will just give the project a better chance of success because then it also maybe negates the necessity for a subsequent introduction of. Let's say you did 12, they went down to six, and then you brought in another six. You know, you started with the same or you ended up putting the same number there. Whereas by getting the 18, the cheetah arriving in a new place needs to find other cheetahs to settle. Whereas putting 18 on 200,000 hectares, which is big enough to keep 18 cats, based on their prey density there, it's probably beneficial at the beginning just to, to start off big. And if some of them go into the great conservation areas, to the west, like mana pools. So be it, you know.

[Robbie]

Yeah, so be it.

[Mike Axelrod]

Because at the end of the day.

[Robbie]

That'S what we want. At the end of the day it.

[Mike Axelrod]

Is what we want. And, and also you want later on a translator. Instead of putting another 12 cats into panyame, you want to go and put 12 cats in minor pools and kind of let those two naturally flow into each other. That's a successful project because then you're looking at a whole regional reintroduction or rather than one property, you know, Whereas in South Africa we don't have many 200,000 hectare reserves. And if you do have a 200,000 hectare reserve, it's most likely going to have a fence around it.

[Robbie]

So just to jump to, you talked about the human agricultural sediments and whatnot. Do cheetah historically have human wildlife conflict? Do they take livestock? Do they take like a lion, for instance? Right. Lion is going to smack a cow.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's going to, you know, they can. So I think that depends on the individual cheetah. So you're going to have cheetah that are different levels of human habituate, habituated. A cheetah that's very used to people will probably venture into a village with more confidence. And if it hasn't found prey of like a wild nature, it may take.

[Robbie]

A chicken or a goat or something.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, a goat or a sheep or something like that, or maybe even a cattle calf. Whereas if it's a super spooky Tudor, um, it's not going to have the confidence to go into, you know, human village. Um, and then your risk of predation of livestock is, is much lower.

[Robbie]

So what about those images that we've seen of the cheetahs in India that.

[Mike Axelrod]

Are in towns so that, remember India's landscape is so different. Firstly, you've got beautiful, beautiful, well, protected wildlife area. Yeah, that's kind of different to anywhere else in the world because you've got no commercial tourism in those areas. Like your guests can come in during the day, they can drive around also during set times and then they leave outside of those set. Right. So there's no, there's no five star lodge inside this protected area. At night it's, it's wilderness area. And then on the boundaries of those protected areas, sometimes you have a buffer zone. And then outside of that buffer zone, you've got some of the most densely populated human genitals. I mean, you'll know how intense it is.

[Robbie]

It's crazy.

[Mike Axelrod]

So the moment that cat leaves the boundaries of that wildlife area, which isn't fenced like we used to in South Africa and other areas in Africa, the moment it leaves that reserve, it's going to come into contact with people. And again, if you get a cat that's quite habituated to people, it's not going to mind wandering through a village, which in South Africa and other African regions would probably be handled very differently to the way that they handled it in, in India. India's cultural and religious attachment to their wildlife creates this sense of love for their, for their wildlife. I mean, this, I think the specific.

[Robbie]

Video you talked about, the one, the guy giving the water to the cheetahs. Right. And putting the cheetah bowl and they literally are not moving.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

They come and drink the water.

[Mike Axelrod]

I mean, that's probably not going to happen in Malawi, you know, heavily populated area in Malawi, mostly because those communities might be afraid of that cat.

[Robbie]

So they may think it's a leopard.

[Mike Axelrod]

Sure. And I mean, some of the, some of the Indian guys think it's a leopard too. But those communities are like, around Kuna national park, are very aware of the cheetah's presence. And the cheetah in Kuna national park also have wildlife monitors that are with them 24 7. So, I mean, there's another video where there's a newly released cheetah and her four cubs, big adult cubs, and she goes into a village and she hasn't found prey for a few days and she starts like awkwardly trying to catch a goat.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And.

[Robbie]

And the villagers are like, they're kind.

[Mike Axelrod]

Of standing between her and the goat and the goat and she doesn't know what to do. They don't know what to do. And if she eventually grabs the goat and, and one of the guys throws a stone, but immediately like the wildlife monitor steps in and kind of diffuses the situation and, and kind of. And, you know, maybe starts the education process and that, and that's part of, that's part of a community and a population getting used to a novel species like that. It's obviously unfortunate seeing, seeing those videos, but that's also part of conservation. Like, we need to accept that the Indian conservation model is very different to Africa and even more so different to southern Africa. So in South Africa, if something goes out the fence, we get a helicopter and we catch it or we go to the vet and we catch it and we pop it back inside the fence. Whereas in India, that's their conservation model, they, they want to be living in, amongst wildlife. So, I mean, they've got deer and antelope species that eat, eat some of the, eat some of the crops and, and it's tolerated to a certain extent. So I think it's, you just have to start looking at that, that sort of video with a different set of set of glasses. You know, you, you got to understand the Indian landscape to understand a video like that. It's not, it's not what we used to down here for sure.

[Robbie]

Yeah, it's definitely a one they look at wildlife differently to because of the sort of heavy handedness of the Forest Service, these guys are very wary of doing anything to wildlife. 3 It seems like again every Indian has a phone. So the videoing of, of wildlife is just unbelievable. Right?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. Any you think, you think a bear doesn't walk into some kind of town in the States and it doesn't get something thrown at it, you know, or shot at or something like those things happen all over the world. But like you say, I think in India it's much easier for someone to take a video of that sort of in zot which, which is unfortunate. You know, it's part of conservation. But you know, no one likes to see incidents like that.

[Robbie]

Do you think people, just because they don't understand the Indian landscape, they see the cheetahs in an Indian town and.

[Mike Axelrod]

Like conservation has failed 100%. You know, maybe they assume that that's how cheetah live, you know, that there isn't this pristine wilderness area like 2 kilometers away. You know, that they don't understand that the, the human wildlife interface is that intense and you literally have an imaginary boundary.

[Robbie]

Oh yeah, I saw it. Like the forest stops and where the forest stops, agriculture starts 100% and where agriculture stops is where the village starts.

[Mike Axelrod]

And I mean, and we do get that kind of interface in South Africa. But there's a high fence that's heavily electrified in South Africa that's heavily electrified. And then you do have a community across the road that will be used to seeing lines walking up, walk up and down the fence. But when that line gets out, it's an emergency event, which I mean the Indian community is used to tigers walking through, used to leopards walking through. And in a way that kind of system is way more robust, you know, going forward. Having that wildlife interface, but having it kind of in a strange sort of symbiosis is kind of where I think we should be aiming.

[Robbie]

Well, that's what we just released a podcast with Dr. Pablo and even though the headline was Killing people to save wildlife was the headline and he was a little upset with me about it. I said I used the headline just to get people to be interested in.

[Mike Axelrod]

Are you using clickbait, Robbie?

[Robbie]

Yeah, I have to. To listen to the podcast. Pablo was all about human wildlife symbiosis. Yeah, that's what he calls it. Not coexistence. Symbiosis.

[Mike Axelrod]

So that's, I guess, what we should be aiming for.

[Robbie]

Yeah. Colby, did you have a sleep?

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, man. Definitely had a little. Little quick sleep.

[Robbie]

I thought you were sleeping in the lodge all day tomorrow. A private lounge. Oh, my gosh. Don't tell anybody.

[Mike Axelrod]

Robbie's gonna get a bowl from.

[Robbie]

Yeah, exactly. For Colby sleeping in the private lounge. Well, it is midnight, so it's not unusual for people wanting to sleep at midnight. What are. What is your thoughts to the future? Like, I know we've talked about future from a wildlife conservation perspective. I know that we've talked about cheetahs, obviously, and projects like this, I think, yield tremendous opportunities and benefits for cheetah in the future. But you interact with wildlife all the time and we've talked about wild dogs and we've talked about cheetahs, we talked about rhinos. And.

[Mike Axelrod]

So I think each conservation area has got to find a system that works for that individual area, I think. And it's not going to be a one size fits all plan for everywhere. You're going to have areas that are completely funded by hunting, you're going to have areas that are completely funded by ecotourism, and you're going to have areas that are funded by a mix of.

[Robbie]

Both or areas completely funded by Philanthropic.

[Mike Axelrod]

100 or government funding. So it's completely unique to what works in that situation. And it's. What works in one area is not going to work in another. So I think you've got to look at, like, regional differences. Like in. In South Africa, our smaller fenced reserves are probably some of the most robust, like wildlife breeding engines that we can use to move endangered species, like then kings.

[Robbie]

A breeding engine?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, man. I mean, they've got their cheetah stuff has been so successful the last 10 years.

[Robbie]

They've got 20 Cubs on the ground right now.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, so you did. Right. So, you know, if you look at a reserve like that, that's actually who.

[Robbie]

We just received four cheetah from, and now they're up to way more than they had.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. And they're going to be looking for. For homes for those cats soon, you know, So, I mean, if you look at that, that's got quite a. Quite an intense human wildlife interface on their Boundary. It's, it's also quite an interesting reserve and how it's set up. It's obviously lots of different landowners that have removed fences to make a reserve. So what works there is going to be very different to what works at a place like Panyami for example. Punyam is a much lower density reserve with much less human wildlife interface like on its immediate border. So you just got to take very.

[Robbie]

Different approaches in South Africa like that. Let's use the Dina Kang example. Dina Kang is a fixed area reserve. There's very few open area, free roaming population lit for cheetahs. Right now let's just talk about that Northern, I would say Northern Cape, the Tswalu. What's the Kaligati? Kalihali and Kruger. Yeah, where else are we getting tutors? Moving roaming in and out from a free roaming population.

[Mike Axelrod]

So you've got the free roaming population around like Matlabas centrum on the South African side of the Botswana border around the Crocodile river that De Anselyers has always been researching. There's quite a significant population there, but yeah, there aren't.

[Robbie]

And do you think that that free roaming population is going to, is it doing well? Like are we seeing more pressure from humans or we seeing this coexistence model?

[Mike Axelrod]

I would definitely wouldn't call it coexistence. So that area's got a lot of wildlife ranches, not true conservation areas. So it's a lot of smaller fenced hunting farms that these cheetah have learned.

[Robbie]

To slip in and out of, to.

[Mike Axelrod]

Sneak through and, and, and survive. So they've, they've learned how to survive by avoiding human contact. Which one? One of the cheetahs that we released this week is shown exactly how she's learned to avoid people. She's just kind of skirting along the, the boundaries of, of human settlements, keeping just far enough away and you can see the moment she gets into a corner she kind of just hunkers down in a thick, thick bushed area and kind of works out what's, what plan she's going to make and what moves she's going to make next. And then she just changes direction and keeps away from the people. So that's a very successful population that's learned to live with like perhaps human persecution. Farmers there are maybe less tolerant to cheetah's presence. You know one, because they, they're more of a consumptive species. They, they're eating prey species and things like that and they've got no, no income generation out of them. So which is something that has to change. I mean, it has to change with endangered species across the board to make them successful, you've got to have them generate some kind of income.

[Robbie]

Sure, sure.

[Mike Axelrod]

And obviously ecotourism is one, Hunting, hunting is another. And then like you say, philanthropic, you know, donor funding initiatives is one thing, although it would be nice for those species to fund themselves without, you know, donations or charity. And, and they should be able to, you know, I think, I think we can get to that point at some stage.

[Robbie]

What about wild dogs? We've talked about wild dogs, you know, lots more issues with wild dogs roam way bit, you know, way more, way more prolific of a predator.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

So the issue probably more, less of people's tolerance to wild dogs versus people would probably tolerate cheetahs more than anything.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. So, you know, I think something with, with cheetah and leopards and things is a landowner is not always aware of the predation that, you know, a cheat and the leopard causes because they're much more secretive. Whereas a pack of 30 wild dogs coming through your property is. Can't really keep us, keep it a secret. They're going to know about it. So they're. Their biggest success factor is the ability to breed huge litters of pups and the fact that the entire pack lives to help those. Excuse me, to help those puppies survive. So when you have a alpha Alphabet give birth to 15 puppies, I'm just having a sip of water and raises 12 of them to weaning that those 12, 18 months later need to disperse. You've all of a sudden got an entire pack of dogs that's got to leave and go somewhere else.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

So by nature, they can populate huge tracts of land very quickly. So obviously, I mean, lions, hyenas, disease also squash them pretty quick, which is why they, they breed the way that they do. But just based on the success that they have hunting, they can be undesirable to certain reserves. So we get a lot of reserves in South Africa, for example, that want smaller packs of dogs. And I mean, if you have a small pack with, you know, an alpha male and female, five or six supportive dogs, that's eight dogs. And then the Alphabet gives birth to 12 pups and raises them all successfully. Your pack goes from 8 to 20 and then, then what do you do? You know, because that reserve might be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, like, we committed to keep a small pack, we can't keep 20. And then a conservation entity has got to find a home.

[Robbie]

So is there any More, you know, wild dogs is arguably probably more endangered than cheetahs.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, they are, yeah.

[Robbie]

Is there, do we have too many wild dogs right now for what we have available from a habitat perspective in South Africa?

[Mike Axelrod]

Indeed, yes. So we have.

[Robbie]

There's no space for them.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, sure.

[Robbie]

No more space.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, well there is space, but there's not space that's tolerated space. Yeah, so, so we, that's something we would need to change to create more wild dog habitat which you could, reserves would probably tolerate dogs much, much better if they had some kind of funding source to, to pay for them getting fed. So if you've got a 20,000 hectare reserve that can easily handle a pack of dogs, but those dogs are eating, I mean a pack of 10 dogs eating at least an impala sized antelope every day. But probably more than that. You're talking about let's say 500 impala sized antelope a year. That's, that's with other predators in their predator guild, lions, hyenas, but also adding on top of that, it's not easy to maintain that level of predation. So they may need to restock that reserve with additional prey species which they've got to source from somewhere and it costs money. And so if they had funding for that they would maybe be more keen. But apart from the ecotourism aspect of the dogs, there's no other income from, from those dogs. So you know, I do think there's a, an opportunity for, for alternative outlets, but I think we need to really start looking at, at much bigger areas north of South Africa because I don't think South Africa's got the, like the conservation capacity to create proper wild dog habitat. And we do have some free ranging packs in the Waterburg. But they've just faced unbelievable challenges. You know, farmers poisoned six dogs I think last year, 2024 in a shocking incident. But that is just a culmination of like farmers just getting tired of having issues. Yeah, but I mean it's again, it's unbelievably sad because it's our most critically endangered carnivore in South Africa and it's the second most endangered carnivore in Africa. So to have something like that, that should be so valuable to everybody in that country, you know that, I mean that should be, that would make headline news but like it won't even make the local town newspaper.

[Robbie]

It's almost a symptom of everything. Cheetahs, wild dogs, elephants, lions. Those four are arguably all at capacity except if you go like to Kruger, right?

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

There's probably space for plenty of wild dogs, plenty of cheetah, plenty of lion in Kruger.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, I think. I think from what I've heard via the grapevine, Kruger's cheetah population's not doing so well, so they could probably do with more. I don't.

[Robbie]

Neither of the lions.

[Mike Axelrod]

I don't know if they want more dogs. I think they've got pretty strong dog packs, especially down in the south.

[Robbie]

I thought.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, I thought Beverly would know.

[Robbie]

I think EWT said they moved a pack up to the north and they sort of like, figured each other out, like the pack in the north and the pack in the middle, like, made each other and started breeding a whole new pack. It was crazy.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, it's a very, like, cool, interesting species. You know, just they. They're so different to everything else. You know, in, in nature, kind of weakness just gets bred out through natural, natural selection, whereas with, with dogs, I mean, their whole function is just to keep each other alive. There's nothing like it. And it's super, super cool. So, yeah, I mean, Robbie, at the end of the day, conservation's got some serious challenges ahead. Humans are this unbelievably resourceful species that kind of just keeps facing every challenge that's thrown at it, and we just keep expanding and keep breeding and keep consuming and we're putting massive pressure on. On wild habitat. And I don't know what the silver bullet is for it, but I think the next. I mean, our lifetime in conservation is going to be super interesting. You know, that sort of baseline theory where a child growing up sees its natural environment as its normal. And I think each generation is seeing less and less wildlife as their normal. You know, our fathers and grandfathers used to go down to the beach in the South African east coast and pull fish out of there all day. You know, now maybe I'm just a bad fisherman, but it's not, it's not. It's not that easy to catch a fish with the rocks off on the beach, you know, so. Yeah, and I think that's just in. In general terms, across the board. Conservation has got serious challenges lying here. But I think, you know, projects like this, I mean, like, for. For Punyame to have cheetah going there, acting. Although it is a thriving conservation area already for cheetah to go there in an area where their primary income generation is through hunting.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And you're offloading a species that's going to eat the animals that they hunt and generate income from.

[Robbie]

Yep.

[Mike Axelrod]

Like, to Go there as an umbrella species and start protecting that ecosystem for other species to be brought in. I mean, we've spoken about, you know, black rhino reintroductions and stuff like that, you know, and all of that stuff becomes possible once you've got that primary umbrella species. So you set up the anti poaching unit to keep the cheetahs safe, but then you've got the anti poaching unit so your habitat is safe. So now you can bring rhinos back in. Yeah, so we may create habitat again that we kind of wrote off previously. And I think that there is still good space in Africa to. To do that. I mean, like, look at NASA, you know, northern Mozambique.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

4 million hectares. Yeah, yeah. In serious trouble. Especially now WCS has pulled out.

[Robbie]

They've pulled out.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. They've had ISIS attacks there.

[Robbie]

Well, no, I don't know. Well, I know that there was a question being laid at wcs, like, what the you doing?

[Mike Axelrod]

WCS has withdrawn from NASA.

[Robbie]

I know. I do know that Colby had some information and I'll tell you after this podcast is finished.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. So, like, there's 4 million hectares that.

[Robbie]

They got wild dog packs running around up there.

[Mike Axelrod]

I saw dogs there. Yeah, beautiful. And like, you know, that place can have way more prey species that can have way more predators in it. Like, it's that. That's the kind of area that we should be focusing on protecting because finding 4 million hectares of conservation space in South Africa is almost impossible. But there it is up there. You just got to protect it.

[Robbie]

Yeah, yeah. And.

[Mike Axelrod]

And obviously there's been amazing people that have been trying to do that and. But yeah, that's just. It's just tough. So, yeah, there's space around, but it's going to take huge collective efforts. It's going to take us putting our heads together and coming up with those individual plans for those. Those individual spaces. You know, you're going to have to find something that works and that's going to work there, and you're going to, you know, punch that as hard as you can and somewhere else you're going to find a system that works there, and that's what you're going to do there. You know, the time for mud slinging across the fence line and saying, oh, but you guys can't do that, and you guys can't do that is over. Like, we are now at that critical point where you've got to start working together and finding something that works and then pushing that.

[Robbie]

You know, you wish the governments, you know, as sort of A pipe dream, like, even for this project that the, you know, DFFE and ANAC would just. Hey, can we have. They're so well coordinated in this vision that it's almost like, let's set up a zoom call. Here's an opportunity. You guys have got surplus cheaters. We're looking for cheaters. You guys agree on the zoom call? Boom, boom, boom. Done. Done. Yep. That's a great idea. Let's do this. I think that's. That's a Vince like idea right there.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. But I think you just. You just oversimplified a very difficult process.

[Robbie]

Yeah, well, I did, but. It did, but I didn't. Because it is that simple. It is that simple. It's. You just need the players. This guy who's the cites guy. Yeah. You've done your pva, you've done all the things that you need. Then you get the guys that are writing the permits, that are signing the permits on a zoom call. What are you doing? Boom, boom, boom. Here it is, Here it is. Here it is. You have the permanent art. Everyone looks at it. Okay, cool. Everyone sign. Let's go.

[Mike Axelrod]

Are you telling me that you naive enough to dream of a time where human egos don't get involved?

[Robbie]

I don't think that this would be egos because it's. It's a project in a different country and these two guys are. That's the. They're in the permitting. They're in the permitting business.

[Mike Axelrod]

So, like, I mean, your recent podcast of the, you know, you dreaming of taking sambo idea from Australia into Pakistan. Yeah. It is that simple. Right? Like Australia. Australia's got sambo idea that they want to get.

[Robbie]

It should be even. It should be even simpler.

[Mike Axelrod]

Pakistan wants sambo idea because they're invasive.

[Robbie]

In Australia, it's. There shouldn't be any fucking permits to catch invasive deer.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's going to cost some money. There's. There's going to be a pretty cool logistical challenge.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And you're going to load a few. A plane or a few planes full of these deer and you're going to move them across the world and you're going to save their spec in their home habitat. Like, it is very simple, but it's also very challenging.

[Robbie]

There's no buts. Not at 12:18 in the morning. Simple. Solving the world's problems next.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, let's. Let's make it happen. I'll be there to help, wherever we are.

[Robbie]

Dude, it would be ridiculous if we did that in Pakistan. It would be absolutely ridiculous.

[Mike Axelrod]

Just. Just don't forget about Africa. We've got our own problems that we.

[Robbie]

Don'T have to help. Bye, dear. We just go round them up.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yep. No, fair enough. Yeah. Look, there's definitely, like, source populations where one species may be an issue. Like, if you look at a lot of the southern African elephant populations, we can definitely donate a lot of elephants to. That's not happening to places that need it.

[Robbie]

That's too expensive.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's not that expensive.

[Robbie]

We cannot move 500 elephants anywhere.

[Mike Axelrod]

Can't we put them in Kingu again?

[Robbie]

No, we're not doing that.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay. No. Ravi, there's space for these animals, I think.

[Robbie]

But elephants. Like, Tanzania is full. Mozambique's about to be full. Namibia is full. Zim's full. Botswan is full. Angola can take a shit ton of elephants because Angola is massive.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's full. When you pigeonhole your concept of what habitat is like, if you. If you think that habitat is a perfectly protected fenced reserve where you're going to have zero human wildlife conflict, then cool, there's no space. But I. I think, like, in the Indian situation, and, and this is gonna. I'm gonna put myself in the crosshairs here. Like, we have to start getting used to the fact that human wildlife conflict is something that we've got to deal with if we're gonna conserve habitat and species. But.

[Robbie]

But you're not on that interface, Andy.

[Mike Axelrod]

What do you mean?

[Robbie]

You're not on the human wildlife conflict interface. The people that are on the human wildlife conflict interface are the poorest of the poor.

[Mike Axelrod]

Sure. Like, and that's why I said they're like you, Andy.

[Robbie]

That's a terrible idea.

[Mike Axelrod]

So my next statement was going to be that we have to have those communities benefiting from those introductions. We are enough to have the cost benefit ratio for them be like, okay, cool. Like, we know that we're going to lose our crop of millies every now and then, but we actually want these animals here. And that's not an easy process. And I mean, I'm not. I'm not trying to say that I know what it's like to watch the food get swept off my table when an elephant walks through my. My maize crop and smashes everything. I'm not. I'm not saying that, but I do think that there is more that can be done to. To create those habitat blocks. But I've never worked in that space and I've never tried to do that. So, you know, with all due respect to the people that are trying to do it, like, I know, it's not easy.

[Robbie]

Yeah, yeah, the community, sort of community led is the key, right? That's where you want. You want them to own it, you want them to benefit from it, you want them to gain everything from it.

[Mike Axelrod]

Right.

[Robbie]

You want them to run it, they.

[Mike Axelrod]

Need to believe in it. It's got to be something that they want.

[Robbie]

Yeah. And that's, you know, that's just how you got to value wildlife and you're going to value elephants and rhinos and all these things that, as you say, will interact at that. That interface, so. All right, I'm tired. We've got three hours to go. One, two, three.

[Mike Axelrod]

One and a half to the inspection.

[Robbie]

One after the inspection. Right. Good job, Andy.

[Mike Axelrod]

Thanks, Robbie. Nice to chat with you again.

[Robbie]

Well, that's it for today.

[Andy Fraser]

I appreciate you listening, as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right.

[Robbie]

To convey the truth around hunting.