Episode 577 - Tarquin Millington-Drake || Fighting For The Moorlands, Part 2

Summary

Podcast Title: Blood Origins
Episode: 577 - Tarquin Millington-Drake || Fighting For The Moorlands, Part 2
Release Date: July 22, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 577 of Blood Origins, host Mike Axelrod engages in a deep and insightful conversation with Tarquin Millington-Drake from the United Kingdom. The discussion centers around moorland conservation, the intricacies of grouse shooting, and the broader implications for wildlife and rural communities. This episode delves into the challenges facing moorlands, the role of hunting in conservation, and innovative communication strategies aimed at bridging gaps between different stakeholders.

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Background on Tarquin Millington-Drake and "Why Moorlands Matter"

Tarquin Millington-Drake is a passionate photographer and conservation communicator who has established a communication hub focusing on wildlife, particularly related to moors and grouse shooting. Alongside previous guests Emily Graham and Ian Coghill, Tarquin has been instrumental in creating platforms that highlight the benefits of shooting beyond mere sport, emphasizing its role in effective conservation.

Notable Quote:
"There's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting."
— Mike Axelrod [01:52]

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Key Issues Discussed

1. Overstocking of Game Birds

One of the primary concerns highlighted is the overstocking of pheasants and partridges in certain areas. This practice can lead to ecological imbalances, where excessive numbers of these birds may deplete food resources and damage the habitat.

Notable Quote:
"Problem number one is we're probably putting too many pheasants and partridges in certain areas, which is not good for the ground because they eat too much stuff, they do damage, et cetera."
— Tarquin Millington-Drake [11:48]

2. Lead Ammunition vs. Steel

The discussion delves into the ongoing debate between using lead vs. steel ammunition. Lead, while traditionally favored for its effectiveness, poses significant environmental and health risks, rendering shot birds unsalable on a broader scale. Transitioning to steel is hindered by factors such as availability, cost, and the suitability of existing firearms.

Notable Quote:
"What we've been trying to do with moral matters is to get gauge everybody's opinion because I don't think we've done a lot of listening."
— Tarquin Millington-Drake [11:52]

3. Predator Control and Its Impacts

Effective predator control is crucial for maintaining the balance of moorland ecosystems. The cessation of predator management has led to significant problems, including the local extinction of certain species and uncontrolled predator populations.

Notable Quote:
"Two of the seven species just ceased to exist in that area."
— Tarquin Millington-Drake [47:06]

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Conservation Communication Efforts

Tarquin emphasizes the importance of conservation communication as a tool to educate both hunters and non-hunters about the multifaceted benefits of grouse shooting. By organizing events like "Why Moorlands Matter," Tarquin and his team facilitate dialogues that foster understanding and collaboration among diverse groups, including government officials, landowners, and the general public.

Notable Quote:
"What we're doing with conservation communication is actually talk to people, understand them, make adjustments."
— Tarquin Millington-Drake [12:00]

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Community and Economic Impacts

Grouse shooting significantly contributes to rural economies by supporting local businesses such as hotels, pubs, and service providers. The discontinuation of shooting activities can have devastating effects on these communities, leading to job losses and economic instability.

Notable Quote:
"For every rich guy on the fell shooting, there's 10 people who are benefiting."
— Tarquin Millington-Drake [23:05]

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Challenges and Proposed Solutions

1. Lack of a Governing Body for Shooting

Currently, there is no centralized authority overseeing shooting practices, leading to inconsistent standards and enforcement. Tarquin advocates for the establishment of a governing body that can set and enforce best practices, such as transitioning to steel ammunition and regulating game bird populations.

Notable Quote:
"I think a governing body for shooting is going to stop people doing stupid things like raptor persecution."
— Tarquin Millington-Drake [52:03]

2. Addressing Negative Perceptions

Negative perceptions of hunters and shooting practices often overshadow the positive contributions to conservation. By openly addressing issues like lead usage and overstocking, and showcasing successful conservation projects, the shooting community can improve its public image and garner broader support.

Notable Quote:
"We are making progress by not being aggressive, by not being defensive and by actually talking and listening to people."
— Tarquin Millington-Drake [24:17]

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Future Directions and Initiatives

Tarquin and Mike discuss the potential for innovative communication strategies to further conservation goals. This includes leveraging social media, engaging filmmakers and podcasters, and creating informative content that highlights successful conservation efforts tied to grouse shooting. Additionally, they touch upon collaborative projects with organizations like Safari Specialty Importers and Silencer Central to support conservation funding.

Notable Quote:
"We're going to embark on a mission to try and re-engage them with wildlife via any and every social media or whether it be YouTube or anywhere else."
— Tarquin Millington-Drake [43:20]

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Concluding Remarks

The episode concludes with a reaffirmation of the importance of open dialogue, education, and collaborative efforts in ensuring the sustainability of moorland ecosystems and the communities that depend on them. Tarquin and Mike express optimism that through continued communication and strategic initiatives, the challenges facing moorlands can be effectively addressed.

Notable Quote:
"It's about saving shooting because of the good it does to British wildlife. It's not about saving shooting because I love shooting."
— Tarquin Millington-Drake [44:28]

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Final Thoughts

Episode 577 of Blood Origins offers a nuanced perspective on the intersection of hunting and conservation. By highlighting both the benefits and the challenges, Tarquin Millington-Drake and Mike Axelrod provide listeners with a comprehensive understanding of the efforts required to preserve moorlands and support rural communities. The episode underscores the necessity of informed dialogue and proactive measures in fostering a sustainable future for both wildlife and those who depend on it.

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For more information on Blood Origins and their initiatives, visit Blood Origins Inc..

Transcript

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[Mike Axelrod]

Millington Drake is from the United Kingdom and follows on on the series of podcasts around Morelands in the UK and why they matter. Tarquin is a photographer. He's also started this conservation communication landscape, dare I call it a communication hub for all things sort of wildlife specifically tied to moors and grouse shooting. He loves to shoot. He's also a wildlife lover and him and a previous podcast guest, Emily Graham and Ian Coghill have all teamed up to build these, this, this communication highway around the benefits of shooting. Sounds familiar, right? That's exactly what we're doing all over the world. These guys are doing it. I wanted to talk to them. It's a fascinating conversation about a specific type of hunting in a specific place in the world that you may not know anything about. So I think you're going to love it, enjoy it and really take home some, some great key points that as you start sort of thinking about them and marinating on it, you'll see how it pertains to everything we do in the States, in South Africa, Australia, New Zealand, all over the world. Enjoy. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting.

[Tarquin]

It brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals.

[Mike Axelrod]

How do I start it?

[Tarquin]

Brittany? My name.

[Mike Axelrod]

Does my hair look okay? My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a. A feminist that works for a nonprofit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter. He.

[Tarquin]

He'll be chuffed to know that he outsmarted me.

[Mike Axelrod]

He was on the ball yesterday. Coggers was on the ball. He was ready to go. He didn't have nearly the technological issues that you had. I. When you sent me an email saying, I'm downloading Riverside, I was like, it's not a program. You can't download it.

[Tarquin]

I did download it. It told me to download anyhow.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's how great you are. That's how great you are technologically. You know, you download something that can't be downloaded.

[Tarquin]

I don't want to. I don't want to flatter. I did. I literally did download Riverside. I signed up very soon.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's amazing. That is amazing.

[Tarquin]

Well, I don't want to flatter Coggers anymore. He'll be very chuffed that he's out teched me.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, talking about coggers, those of you that are listening to this podcast, we did a podcast with Ian Coghill, or Coggers and Emily Graham that sort of speaks to what Tarkin and I are going to talk about. So if you haven't listened to that podcast, go ahead and listen to that podcast. It's a really good one. We had a fantastic conversation, Tarpon. Yes, it was exceptional. And it really speaks to. It doesn't matter whether it's me in America talking about these hunting narrative issues or you guys in the United Kingdom or somebody in New Zealand. We're all facing the same critical issues.

[Tarquin]

I think we are. Yeah, I agree. I don't know how it is in New Zealand and the U.S. but I think here we bring it on ourselves to some degree.

[Mike Axelrod]

What do you mean? You mean the bad apples?

[Tarquin]

I think the bad apples.

[Mike Axelrod]

But surely there's more good apples than bad apples.

[Tarquin]

There's far more good apples. But as. As I'm sure you know, for every. I'm in the travel business, every time somebody has a bad trip, they sell tell seven people. Every time somebody has a good trip, they only tell one. And it's the same with all of this. Plus, you're, you know, as a. One of the guests we had on a Mauler matters, he said, you know, you are a bunch of fairly simple, honest people who just tell the truth, but your adversaries are not telling the truth. They're not straightforward, they're very clever and they're utilizing every, every trick they know and we are just not savvy enough at dealing with that.

[Mike Axelrod]

Or do you think we just don't want to go down to their level? And maybe that's something that is. Should we, should we be playing dirty? Should we be changing our tactics?

[Tarquin]

Should we. I think, I think, you know, I think certainly over here I think we where, I mean you've got people as you, as you do in any country who simply disagree with killing things. So if you, you've got to put them to one side because that's a.

[Mike Axelrod]

Small minority, that's 10% of the population.

[Tarquin]

That's probably an argument you can't, you can't win. But I think what's happened here is we have, we have your, your everyday family shoots and, and you know, wildfowlers and pigeon shots and so on who just go about their business according to the law and everything's fine. But where it's got commercially driven, it's got a bit out of control. And, and I'm not saying that everybody's out of control, far from it. But it has allowed people to pick up on it. And I don't know how much have you shot in, in the uk Come and shot pheasants?

[Mike Axelrod]

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[Tarquin]

You know what we did when commercial shooting in Inverted commas began and it began by people letting the odd day or selling the odd day to, to counter against costs. And now it's got to a point where there are shoots that are run completely commercial and many of them are run very well. But what we've been good at is, you know, selling the shooting, selling the clothing, selling the dogs, selling the cars, selling the guns, selling the cartridges. You know, we can sell anybody anything. But what we haven't done is educated them on what the hell they're doing.

[Mike Axelrod]

And the indirect benefits of what, what comes from that commercial shoot.

[Tarquin]

Yes, and, and, and understanding what they're looking at. You know, how many people can judge a well run shoot that is putting things back into the countryside versus, versus not, you know, how many people nowadays, you know, come out of the city to shoot, which we welcome. You know, the more people who shoot, the stronger our sport is. But what we forgot is to actually teach them about what's going on. And we got, we got a bit greedy. And that greed has manifested itself in three problems. Problem number one is we're probably putting too many pheasants and partridges in certain areas, which is not good for the ground because they eat too much stuff, they do damage, et cetera, et cetera. There is unquestionably still the killing of raptors, which is illegal in this country. And as one of the attend, another attendant of our attendees said, you know, it's like snakes and ladders. You guys, they're climbing the ladder and then somebody does something stupid and you just slide down.

[Mike Axelrod]

That is such an amazing analogy. Snakes and ladders.

[Tarquin]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Geez, that's such an amazing analogy.

[Tarquin]

And then thirdly, you know, we are dragging our feet on lead and a hell of a lot of good work is, you know, we shoot a lot of pheasants and partridges in this country and it's very healthy meat, it's very good for everybody, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But we're still shooting it with lead, which makes it unsalable on a grand scale.

[Mike Axelrod]

And.

[Tarquin]

Doing, you know, shooting all those birds is, is infinitely less defensible if they can't be put into the food chain successfully.

[Mike Axelrod]

A hundred percent. No, no, a hundred percent. We're shooting ourselves provably shooting ourselves in the foot, right?

[Tarquin]

Yeah, you got plenty.

[Mike Axelrod]

What's the, what's the argument for not going to a steel based shot? Is it the same here in the States? Availability and cost.

[Tarquin]

Availability cost, people owning old guns, people not understanding, you know, if their gun can Shoot steel or not. You know, you've got the English gun syndrome where a lot of English guns weren't designed to take steel and therefore people probably have to put those guns down. There's a lot of value in some of them. I think it's stubbornness, ignorance. People feel that lead does a better job of killing the bird, which it probably does as a picker up, somebody who retrieves birds, what's their shot? There's probably more wounding the steel than there is lead, particularly the very high birds which in this country the most sporting bird is considered to be the most high bird. And that has been taken to extreme now so that people are using you know, four shot to try and hit these pheasants which are like 75 yards up in the, up in the air, incredibly high birds. And that is becoming a problem in itself in that, you know, should you really be shooting at stuff which you are far more likely to wound than you are to kill and if you convert to steel at the moment, you're definitely more likely to hit, to wound it than kill it cleanly. So what. So as a result, having listened to 165 people over four years at these why Moreland matters events, it is clear that the main issues with, with, with shooting is our inability to get away from lead wrapped to persecution and overstocking. And if we could resolve those which we're perfectly, we're perfectly capable of doing shooting wood shooting, I'm talking about game bird shooting rather than rifle shooting would find itself in a much better place. And what, what we've been trying to do with moral matters is age get gauge everybody's opinion because I don't think we've done a lot of listening. We, you know, we've done a lot of defending. And I think that is why people in the shooting industry or the shooting community are very defensive and very angry because they, the com, the, the sort of naysayers or the, the, the antis are making wild accusations but at the bottom of it there's truth in it. And the shooting community are not sophisticated enough or do not spend the money to be sophisticated enough to defend themselves. And they get angry and they get rude and they end up playing the same game as the people against them. And what I mean, just to go back, I don't know if you talked about this yesterday. The reason why I wanted to start these events is I'm a photographer as well and I was up in, up on a moor and I was watching, I was in a field where I could film and photograph various moorland birds which are beneficiaries of grouse moor management. Curlews and lapwings and oyster catchers and birds like that, which I'm sure some of them exist with you.

[Mike Axelrod]

And in.

[Tarquin]

Across the dyke or the valley, I could watch Rob the keeper doing what's called diversionary feeding of hen harrier with chicks. And what he's doing is he's feeding them instead of letting them take grouse chicks, for obvious reasons. And then behind me in a car is the militia dressed in camo for the rspb, Royal Society for the Protection of Birds. And they are watching Rob, waiting for Rob to make some mistakes so they can run off to the police and tell. Tell the police that Rob's doing his job wrong, which leads to a whole lot of trouble. And so there's. So you've got three people who all love birds, all in different. I mean, that alone was madness. Then I went away, I came back two weeks later and the farmer, it turns out he'd actually told his son to. His son was bored, so he said, go and muck around on a tractor. So the sun harrowed the field where I'd be photographing all these birds and all the chicks, eggs, everything got completely mullered. There wasn't a bird to be seen.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, man.

[Tarquin]

Meanwhile, the rspb, the Royal Society for Protection of Birds, is still watching Rob because they're not interested in what the farmer's doing murdering all the birds. They're interested in Rob for political reasons. And Rob's still doing his thing. And I'm just thinking, this is madness. This is just total madness. We have to get people to start talking to each other. So that's why we started doing why Morals Matter. And what we're learning, what we're actually doing, is beginning to listen to people's opinions and talk to people in a sort of friendly way, rather than angrily defending ourselves. And we're trying to let the fell do the talking. You know, you take people up on. On these. On these moors and the birds are there for everybody to see. You can't. You can't put them there, you can't round them up, you can't rear them. These are wild creatures. They're either going to be there or they're not going to be there. And we've had ministers, we've had government departments, we've had all sorts of people and I think they like the fact.

[Mike Axelrod]

That we are.

[Tarquin]

Engaging in dialogue. There's some humor, it's just very relaxed. But what you've got is 10 to 15 people by the time you've got people like coggers and Emily and others as volunteers giving that. You know, Emily's talks about her community and coggers talked about other things. And Simon talks about what it was like to be a keeper. And then Kaz, who you probably. She talks about what it's like to be a hill farmer. So these people actually hear how local people think and feel about it all and then the conversation goes in whatever direction it goes in, you know, someone will pick up on something. And so every event is completely different to another. But what it's allowing as we had a government minister who came and said, I like the way you're delivering your message. I like how relaxed these events are. I like the fact that we can all have fun, have a sense of humor, because we put them in cars to take them on safari. And I allocate cars and mixes of people to make sure that you don't end up in the same car or with the same people again. So they talk to each other and I actually feel like putting five people in a car is better than four people in the car because they're all squashed together. They're touching and they're a team and they become a team looking for chicks and what have you. And no matter which walk of life they're from, it brings them together when.

[Mike Axelrod]

In those scenarios, when they're in the moors. You know, one of the things that you didn't discuss as you as you were talking about sort of things that are stymieing the elevation of wing shooting, bird shooting, more grouse shooting, is the sort of indirect benefits that come to the community as a result of that do the more. I'm assuming that when you do the why Morelands matter, they get to see that.

[Tarquin]

They do get to see that and they get to hear about it. I mean, Emily's about as a genuine a local as. As you could ever get. And, you know, we took the minister to the local pub and he got.

[Mike Axelrod]

Exactly like the pub guy getting, you know, monies, because people are in the town, the hotelier, the petrol, you know, station attendant, I mean, do come.

[Tarquin]

But yes, they do see that. And they get that from Kaz, who's a hill farmer and what it's like to be a hill farmer in those areas. They get it through Emily and they get it from Simon, who was a keeper. So they're getting it all three directions, plus they're able to see it because it's a critical Part, you know, for every sort of rich guy on the fell shooting, there's 10 people who are benefiting. And this is a point we try and make to ministers is you may not like the people who are doing the.

[Mike Axelrod]

Exactly.

[Tarquin]

Trigger but for everyone you want to punish, you know, a they will just go and spend their money somewhere else. They might go to Spain, they might go to South Africa, they might go wherever they're just going to go and spend their money fishing, shooting somewhere else, on cars, boats, whatever the money is, what's going to walk. Yes, they'll be a bit upset, it's all over. But you know, they come, they shoot, they go away. It's the, it's the sort of the loader, the chef, the server, the electrician, the car mechanic, the beater, the flanker, et cetera. They're all left distraught because they've lost a way of life, they've lost an income, you know, they're all left. What do they do.

[Mike Axelrod]

That.

[Tarquin]

That's the problem around the Moors. So we feel that we're making progress by not being aggressive, by not being defensive and by actually talking and listening to people and looking for compromises and ways forward.

[Mike Axelrod]

And.

[Tarquin]

I don't know whether the shooting community is comfortable with what we're doing, but we doing a hell of a lot more good than bad, that's for sure. By having conversations with people rather than just shouting matches with.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, no, a hundred percent. You know, it's one of the things that we talked about with Emily and Coggers is that I, I totally agree with you that you can't influence the motivation of an individual to come and shoot on the mall or go to South Africa or Spain. Right. They may just love it. They may just love. Let's be honest for a second, they love killing things.

[Tarquin]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And I get the picture around that. But it's also, I think when you take a step back and the ministers take a step back and people that go and visit and see the place take a step back and go, jeepers creepers, look at the value though that that individual is putting into the rural community. So I think we've got, obviously, and you guys have set up this conservation communications website as a, as a mechanism to communicate these kinds of things. But I think one of the. Based on what I've just heard you say, has there been any thought to. Because obviously you have great relationships with Moors, you have great relationships with private landowners and their shoots. Has there been any discussions brainstorming around. Okay, we have these three rhetorics that are like our Achilles heels. Birds not going in the food chain. Lead. I think you mentioned one other, I can't remember the other.

[Tarquin]

Overstocking and overstocking.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's right, overstocking.

[Tarquin]

Persecution.

[Mike Axelrod]

Is there mech. Is there opportunities to like trial a different model?

[Tarquin]

I mean, these are conversations that are going on all the time. I think one of our weaknesses. I'll be interested to hear what your experiences are in other countries because you've talked to a lot of people, is we don't have a governing body for shooting. We don't have.

[Mike Axelrod]

What does the shooting exercise fall under? What government regulation body does it fall under?

[Tarquin]

I mean, it falls under the Department of Environment, but that doesn't govern shooting. Yes, there are laws around shooting that you can't shoot raptors and you can't do this and you can't do that. But you know, if I'm being really blunt, as my friend Simon, who's one of my volunteers, you know, a few years ago, the shooting organizations, whether they be conservation orientated or just representatives or, you know, they all have different roles. It can be a keeper's organizer. They came up with something that called the code of good shooting practice.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay.

[Tarquin]

And then Simon sarcastically goes, I've got a really good idea, we'll come up with that. And then my idea is let's ignore.

[Mike Axelrod]

It because really there's nobody. What you. Because we're laughing about it. We're laughing about it, but there's no real enforcement to this code. It's more of a goodwill good gesture. Hey, this is what we believe in, but we actually don't have to follow it.

[Tarquin]

Yes. Which is vastly ignored and therefore we're just putting our foot in it even more. And look, I don't want to come across as anti. What I want to do is save shooting. You know, I want to find compromises that allow stocking densities maybe to be adjusted. What I'm not trying to do is stop these shoots doing what they're doing so people lose their jobs. You know, the people who do serve in the lodges and to go beating. I mean, they are a critical part of people's lives. So what I'm not looking to do is, is for them to lose out. I'm looking to solve these problems so they don't lose out. I hope that makes sense.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, no, it makes complete sense. And I, you know, I think just writ large across the world, hunting operators and outfitters are in the same boat. There is really, you know, when it comes to, dare I use the Word ethics, it really isn't ethics. It really comes down to opinion on how conduct should be pushed out, whether in the public sphere or privately. Okay. And so the way to, in my brain, the way to sort of not force the hand, and yet I say not force the hand, but I also say, yes, force the hand. This was the thing that we have experienced our entire lives, which is called peer pressure. Yep. And peer pressure is a wonderful thing when done in the, in the right circumstances, which is, hey, Farmer A has decided I'm going to do things differently. And because you're doing things differently, oh, all of a sudden he's got the attention of conservation communications. Oh, he gets a tour of wild moorland matters on, on his property, he gets this big press, he gets the Minister of the Environment visiting him. Oh, he gets on a podcast on this global podcast network called Blood Origins. All around the world he gets all these things. And all of a sudden Farmer B down the road is going, hey, what about me? I want attention too.

[Tarquin]

I mean, that is beginning to happen, particularly with the younger generation, the 30 somethings and the early 40 somethings. I think they feel it. I mean, you know, let's not beat around the bush. The, the amount of wildlife in the UK is diminishing and it's going to diminish, but further because of the government changes to farming in terms of subsidies to encourage conservation. And that gives us another reason to try and save driven pheasants using it. I mean, I don't know if you understand the term hunger gap. I mean here the hunger gap is sort of January to April. All the berries have been eaten, all the last seeds have been eaten, everything that's fallen to the ground has been eaten. The ground is bare, the vegetation is bare. So you, you know, if during those months you've got a minimal amount of food, you've got minimal amount of COVID.

[Mike Axelrod]

And.

[Tarquin]

You know, that's a pro. That's the riskiest time for our wildlife.

[Mike Axelrod]

And.

[Tarquin]

Farm subsidies used to address that in the form of, encourage them to, to create winter feedlots, you know, for birds, for wild farmland birds, and create cover for them so that they're not easily targeted by raptors, et cetera.

[Mike Axelrod]

And the idea behind that, people will look at that and go, well, that's an anthropomorphic influence or manipulation to ensure that you're keeping your birds to shoot. But the calendar, from my perspective, I'd love to hear yours, is that we've had such an amazing, not a sometimes amazing, sometimes detrimental fingerprint on the Landscape that if we rewound the clock 100 years, the habitat, connectivity and all the things that were available for escapism, for security, nesting security, whatever you need security in those, in those months as well as food security is not there any longer. Correct.

[Tarquin]

And you know, we call it the three legs of the stool, which is predator control, food and habitat. And that can be winter habitat or it can be summer habitat that's producing insects for chicks. As you know, most of these chicks need insects for the first two to four weeks of life. And you know, a normal farm is going to clear out every possible insect it can. So shooting, it used to be farming. But the way they are reducing the subsidies to farmers to encourage them to do their conservation piece with, you know, you've got a field that's got a sort of odd end. What they do is they just straighten that edge and put that, that square, you know, that little rectangular bit to winter bird food. So yellowhammers and linnets and have you and get paid for it, that is potentially going to dry up. So the only other people that are producing cover and food through the winter and the possibility of insect producing weeds and plants and so on in the summer is shooting. So it's almost becoming the last defense before there's just wildlife desolation here.

[Mike Axelrod]

I heard a statistic from Coggers and Emily and it just as you were talking about the subsidies drying up, why don't, why does, why doesn't the. And I'm going to get the society wrong or the organization wrong, but I'm not going to get the number wrong, but I think it's the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds or the Royal Society of Birds that have a $180 million budget, 180 million pound budget a year. Why don't they subsidize the habitat and conservation for these birds?

[Tarquin]

Well, they are on their land, but.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, no, no, no, not on the own land. Come on.

[Tarquin]

Well, I, I don't know. You'd have to ask them. But you know, I mean, you could also ask them, you know, I think the number I have in mind, I know is out of date. So it's more. But you know, domestic cats in this country kill 37 million birds a year. Why are they refusing to ask their members to put bells on their cat or, you know.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, I've, I've heard in Australia they, there's a whole group that says trap, neuter and release TNR or something like that, right. And one of we, we, we did something about it and Somebody said, and I'll have to mind my P's and Q's on this podcast. But it was like, cats aren't killing birds with their reproductive parts. Right?

[Tarquin]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

They're not killing mammals. They're not killing amphibians with their reproductive parts. They're killing with their mouths.

[Tarquin]

Yeah, exactly. So, you know, there's lots of questions and you know, maybe try and get somebody from that organization on the podcast, but.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, it's just, it speaks to the conservation industry, these big conservation industries that have huge, huge budgets on an annual basis that with those budgets could do immense conservation work. Immense.

[Tarquin]

Yes.

[Mike Axelrod]

Right. And I get it. Right. These are, these big NGOs are big. You know, we call them bingos. They're the machines. Right. And you have to feed the machine. And they, they formed the machine and the machine's been running like that for 75 years versus a lean, mean machine. It's like, okay, we're getting a hundred million in ninety million is going on the ground.

[Tarquin]

Exactly.

[Mike Axelrod]

For the thing that we are, we are stood up to do.

[Tarquin]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Which is protect birds.

[Tarquin]

That's the problem. The 90 million is actually going on. Getting the next hundred million.

[Mike Axelrod]

Correct. Yeah, yeah.

[Tarquin]

And I, I'm, you know, through this process, I'm becoming a little bit anti. Membership organizations.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Tarquin]

Because I think they all, whether they be shooting organizations or conservation organizations, they all hide behind poor decisions based on worrying about their membership. You know, and the shooting organization is just the same. You know, they should come out, say, for God's sake, people drop lead. But you know, they're worried about their members and that's why we need a governing body for shooting. He would just say, right, guys, this is how it's got to be. End of or again.

[Mike Axelrod]

One example of one farmer who turned to lead and was able to put the food in the food chain. And you look at and you show the economics tied it. Because here's what, again, what I learned from Emily and Coggers. And again, I think it's a piece of rhetoric that is probably not well known and makes complete sense when you start thinking about it. These private land moors, everybody, if you put a poll together of a hundred people or ten people, how many do you think would say, yes, these guys are making beaucoups of money?

[Tarquin]

Well, they all think that. I mean, well, the most.

[Mike Axelrod]

And they're not.

[Tarquin]

What, they're losing it hand over fist. Where we ran one of our events, they did not pull the trigger once last.

[Mike Axelrod]

In a year, in three years. Didn't they say something like on a, on a.

[Tarquin]

It cost £450,000 to run the mo for a year and they didn't pull the trigger.

[Mike Axelrod]

And so not a single cent came in through hunting that year. And they, they stayed on track doing what they do.

[Tarquin]

Yeah. And where are you going to find anyone else willing to do that?

[Mike Axelrod]

Nowhere.

[Tarquin]

And you know, I think as Koga said, you know, this year, you know, they may be on the fell for 20 days out of 365 days. And yet. And when we, when we took the minister down, we met the guy who owns the hotel and the pub. And last year he lost 300 bed nights because shooting, there was no shooting. But what he said, which was interesting, is I'm not dumb enough to rely on shooting to run my business. Sure, it's the gravy. That's right. And I support it. But I try and run my business without shooting because otherwise I would just so suffer terribly from the ups and downs of, you know, last year. It's not like anybody did anything wrong. It just rained. Rained and it killed every last chick. He can't allow his business to be vulnerable to too much rain.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Tarquin]

However, if the, if the moor owners cease to manage the moors and keep them looking good and full of wildlife, then we are in trouble because people come here to admire these valleys, to see black grouse, to see curlews, to do all of this stuff. And if that goes, then we really do have a problem.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, it's. You're actually echoing what I heard a cattle farmer say in West Texas. So this cattle farmer in West Texas has ardad, which is this Barbary sheep on their property. And the cattle is the business. That's what like the hotel owner, he's obviously got just regular tourists coming in and regular businessmen coming in. But the hunting allows them to make ends meet in lean years and puts a cherry on top in good years. That allows them to then survive. Yeah. Really lean years or really bad years in the future. So it's. It's almost like they're not relying on hunting, they just use it as an opportunity to keep themselves alive.

[Tarquin]

Yeah. And. And you know, you extend from what he said in terms of. I mean, another friend of mine owns a moor, has. Has amazing black grouse leg which if you come, we should try and get used to.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's what Emily said. Emily said come in April on the black grass lek. That that'd be it.

[Tarquin]

It's an extraordinary experience and, and he's very proud of it. And he's achieved amazing Things and he, he asked us to do a website. His dream was to do a website where people can book the lek online. They stay in the local pub. So he's chuffed with that, that helps the local pub, so he ticks that box and you know, maybe they donate a hundred quid for their morning on the lek and that can go to the, you know, Wildlife and Conservation Trust, et cetera, et cetera. You know, he had it all worked out in his mind and, and that, that's admirable and that's what he should be doing. But then you realize that whoever's booked online the first year could just go back the next year and book. And once people know where it is, they could vandalize it. You know, for all we know somebody could just go there with an air gun and just pop off the background. And then he could become criticized for where, you know, the sighting of his hides and are they close or are they this? And what about insurance and what about vandalism? And, and eventually once you actually thought it all through, he sadly came to the conclusion that he shouldn't do it. And there's another example of I'm in the Cotswolds and come sort of the beginning of the year, the short eared owls come through and there's a farmer about 20 miles from here who leaves his wildflower meadows fallow through the winter and the barn owls and the short eared owls come and hunt and it really draws photographers. You know, they're fantastic to photograph, which is great. But he got to a point where he had 105 photographers around one field. Now this is in February where it's muddy, it's raining a lot. You know, 105 photographers, it's gotta be 50, 60 cars around one field, parking on the verges, driving all over the place, turning the place into mud, destroying the undergrowth, just, you know, just making a hell of a mess. So his, his result is he just plows in the field because he just can't have put up with it anymore. So that's the other end of the bale. And anyhow, what we're trying to do with conservation communication is actually talk to people, understand them, make adjustments. And we feel that with the commercialization of shooting, you know, shooting used to be a country pursuit by country people and it's now it is a country pursuit, but it's carried out by a lot of people from the city who, you know, not anti people from the city, it's just how it is. But we are going to embark on a mission to try and re engage them with wildlife via any and every social media or whether it be YouTube or any anywhere else.

[Mike Axelrod]

And that's what conservation co communication is going to do. It's not just going to be blogs and, and website, but rather it's going to be the, the gamut of communication opportunities. Right?

[Tarquin]

Yes. And we've got some very talented people, whether they be, you know, filmmakers, podcasters, whatever, because we have to re engage people. And the more people who are engaged with, with, in this case, British wildlife, the more people are going to care about it. And at the moment they come out, shoot a few pheasants, drink some red wine and go home again and don't give them a moment's thought. I mean, they may as well shoot clay pigeons, to be honest. And yet we need them on side and we need them loving wildlife because if we don't, if people aren't valuing it, then nobody's going to do anything about it. And it gets more and more depleted every day.

[Mike Axelrod]

And to you, the value is beyond someone coming to pay to shoot, right?

[Tarquin]

Yes, it's, it's, it's, you know, I shoot, I love my shooting. I, I love it. But this is about saving shooting because of the good it does to British wildlife. It's not about saving shooting because I love shooting. It's got more serious than that and, and, and shooting does do a lot of good, but the amount of people who understand what it does and why it does it, who shoot compared to 30 years ago, is there's a big, massive gap. And it also delivers mental health benefits and all sorts of things, but they have to have a basic understanding of what is going on in the countryside. And if they don't. And the amazing thing with the why Moral Matters events is we've had plenty of shooting people. They're often reluctant to come because they don't want to be put in a, in an uncomfortable position, because they imagine that they're going to come and have an argument with people, there's never been an argument. There's been, you know, there's barely been strong words. It's just polite dialogue. We're sitting in a beautiful house with friendly people and it's always very constructive, but they worry about what they're getting themselves into. But when they do come, very few people understand the uplands who even shoot. They may have been to a grouse more and shot grouse in the autumn. They still don't understand what makes it tick. They don't Understand what has to happen in the spring in order for them to be able to go there and shoot in the autumn. And I, if I owned a moor, I would invite you on the condition you came in the spring so you understood what, what you were doing and why you were doing it and how these grouse are there in the first place.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. A deeper understanding of the system, a deep understanding of what it takes, a deeper understanding of the benefits to wildlife and obviously science stuff that's coming out of GWCT is helping with that. We, Emma's, Emily and Coggers and I discussed that amazing paper that just came out of the pre post experiment where pre predator removal was occurring and then they just decided going to stop and it, it went exactly what we all know. Not we all know, but what we know is going to happen. And we needed the proof like you need proof to say, okay, you, you don't want us to remove predators, okay, we'll stop, but we're going to monitor and show the actual consequence of that action.

[Tarquin]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And it's all of those, it's that benefit, it's the, it's the, it's the, the consequences of actions.

[Tarquin]

And, and I mean two of the seven species just see to cease to exist in that area.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. Locally extinct.

[Tarquin]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's amazing.

[Tarquin]

The species increased. One, one increased by 127%.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah. I think it was foxes or crows or one of the, one of the predators that just went, you know, completely haywire from a population perspective.

[Tarquin]

You know, I don't think having a slanging match with these people is the way forward. And people probably think I'm really weak and all the rest of it. But you know, I am clear on what, what we have to address. But, and therefore, you know, we have an area of responsibility to address those issues. You know, there would be people who would argue, well they'll then go for you on something else, et cetera, et cetera. And they might. But at the moment I feel that my community is weak on putting itself in a strong position.

[Mike Axelrod]

No. And that's why we exist. That's what blood origins exists for.

[Tarquin]

Right.

[Mike Axelrod]

What you're standing up from a conservation communication is what we've been trying to do for the last five years, which is here's our truth, here's our heart, here's data, here's information, here's science. And we present it in such a way that is like you said earlier, not aggressive, not defensive, but rather here's what we know, understand it, ask questions, watch me interact with Someone who's not in our favor is not in our ilk. Watch how I interact with them. See that I'm not getting defensive, see that I'm not getting aggressive. See that I'm not calling them every name under the sun. Yeah. And learn from it. And the next time somebody says something at a dinner conversation about elephants being endangered, you now are confident enough because you've got the data, you've got the information. You've seen how I've interacted, you've seen how I've said something for you to say something because you have the knowledge base.

[Tarquin]

It's all great until someone does something really stupid and then pulls a wool under the rug from under you because. And that's where the whole raptor persecution comes in, is you, you, you, you. You do exactly what you've described and the next thing you know, somebody's killed a bird illegally and it's in the papers and the, and you go down that ladder back to school, just. And that's a problem. Real problem.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah.

[Tarquin]

You know, and, and I don't know what the hunting equivalent of that is.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, that is, that it's, it's part. Look, it does. It's the bad apples. Right? And we, every community has bad apples. Unfortunately, our bad apples are tied into killing things which make them even worse. But a lot of people in, in, in, for instance, if we use these, this Moore example, and I was to start communicating, which I hope we will, about all these things.

[Tarquin]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And somebody goes, what about this guy persecuting a raptor and killing a raptor? First of all, you know, you'd be honest and addressed and say, well, that's not something we condone. But two. Oh, what? And then it's typically what in our circles, they'll say, well, why aren't you focusing on that? Why aren't you calling them out for that? And I'll say, because that's. Because there's 95 other good things that nobody's talking about. It's. We feel like we're going to talk about. And there's one bad thing that you harp on. I get it, we don't condone it, but I'm going to just continue to talk about the good.

[Tarquin]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Because there's great stuff happening.

[Tarquin]

Yeah. I mean, the crazy thing about here is somebody in Cornwall, which is in the very, very south of the uk, doing something stupid could impact someone in Scotland's job or the north of England, hundreds of miles away. It could trigger the worst thing, which it gets banned because of it. And, and therefore these actions are extremely irresponsible to the greater community. They threaten the whole community, whether it be keepers, whether it be beaters, pickers up. You know, you're threatening just tens of thousands of people's way of life. And that's a problem. Yeah, it really is. And, and now that shooting is becoming.

[Mike Axelrod]

And you think the solution there is this body, a shooting body. How would. What did you think the solution there is?

[Tarquin]

I think a gumping body for shooting is going to stop people doing stupid things like raptors, rapture, persecution. No, I don't, because you've got the bad eggs. But do I think that they could set us on a different course in terms of lead versus steel? I think they, they could definitely do that. And do I think they could lead the dialogue on achieving different densities of pheasants and partridges on the ground that allow everyone to keep their job, but satisfies the. What's the word I'm looking for? Sort of ecological, you know, ecological concerns. Yes, I do think they could play a role, to play that well.

[Mike Axelrod]

Where can people find more information about the conservation communication side of things, Tarquin?

[Tarquin]

Well, there's a conservation communication website which will be evolving as we, as we develop. At the moment, it just talks about our why Morelands matter and why Lowlands matter. We did a why Lowlands matter yesterday where I had a sustainability director of a large food catering company and his staff come and look at the local shoot and the local farm and stuff. I mean, they feed 16 million people and in the UK and they are interested in, in, in deer and you know, putting. They, they sell food in a lot of stadiums in the UK which, whether it be the, the fine dining of the private boxes or whether it be the burger joint, you know, that they whip down at halftime and buy themselves a burger, they do it all and, you know, they are interested in evolving their food from, not only from a venison point of view, but buying pheasants of parched. But they can't have lead to the point that there's quite a lot of these organizations that are interested. I think that if we weren't using lead, there would be no issue with the lack of market for pheasants and partridges in this country, because I think these kinds of companies would buy them.

[Mike Axelrod]

By the whole lot, hand over fist.

[Tarquin]

Yeah. But what they want, which I think we show them admirably, they want the comfort that shooting is doing good things for the countryside. They want to feel comfortable with it. And they came to A mall of matters. And then they come to now to Alolan matters and they.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's almost like you guys need like a biodiversity stamp or something like that. You know how people. It's like you get an organic stamp, you get a. You know.

[Tarquin]

But I think I, I hope that the next step is organizations like that are going to go. We want to associate ourselves with people who are producing wildlife. And when I say wildlife, I mean wildlife. I don't just reared pheasants and partridges because it is becoming so bad in this country. I think there is a value to people who are managing the land where wildlife is, and I think people are going to start to want to be associated with that. It's a good thing. And that's one of the things we want to show with conservation communication is we want to go. You know, there's a lot of amazing conservation projects going on in this country which nobody knows about. I talked to a guy a month or two ago, he said, you know, our barn owl project, which happens on our local shoot, because we leave this field and that field and they can feed there and they're thriving. He said, our barnau project is so successful, the young have to go to another county to find a territory because we've got so many barn owls here. That's a completely. That's a completely untold story.

[Mike Axelrod]

Amazing.

[Tarquin]

So that's what we're going to try and do.

[Mike Axelrod]

Awesome.

[Tarquin]

Is expose all of this.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, we're excited. As I told Emily and coggers, please count us in. However we can help you. Great. We've got. Great.

[Tarquin]

If you'd like to come next year, we'll, we'll invite you for sure.

[Mike Axelrod]

And my, as I said to them, my main cinematography team that I use for all of our big work lives in Cardiff. Right.

[Tarquin]

So that be far for them.

[Mike Axelrod]

It'll be perfect. And yeah, I'm excited. And please, if there's anything we can do in terms of like, you know, we've already spoken about some great data on this podcast. You know, the fact that a. A very simple infographic, you know, 20 year, 2024, whatever it is, you know, this private landowner put £440,000 into the property and you have a bar graph that says inputs and outputs and the output is zero. That's an amazing piece of information that is stunning, you know, that you just need.

[Tarquin]

And that will have repeated itself across the majority of grouse moors in this country last year, very, very few people shot anything.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, let us know how we can help. We'd be happy to help you, Tarquin, and in any way we can do it.

[Tarquin]

Well, I look forward to meeting you. Next April, maybe.

[Mike Axelrod]

Absolutely.

[Tarquin]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

Thanks, mate.

[Tarquin]

Take care. Bye.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, that's it for today. Appreciate you listening, as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.