Episode 578 - John Luyt || Limpopo Elephant Hunting Update

Summary

Blood Origins Podcast Summary

Title: Blood Origins
Host/Author: Blood Origins Inc.
Episode: Episode 578 - John Luyt || Limpopo Elephant Hunting Update
Release Date: July 24, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 578 of the Blood Origins podcast, hosted by Blood Origins Inc., listeners are treated to an in-depth discussion with John Luyt, a seasoned professional hunter affiliated with Duke Safaris. The episode, titled "Limpopo Elephant Hunting Update," delves into significant developments within South Africa's Limpopo Province regarding elephant hunting regulations. This detailed summary captures the essence of the conversation, highlighting key points, discussions, insights, and conclusions.

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Background on Elephant Hunting in South Africa

John Luyt brings over three decades of hunting experience to the table, emphasizing his role as both a hunter and an outfitter deeply involved in wildlife management within the Associated Private Nature Reserves (APNR) of the Kruger National Park. The APNR, which borders Kruger, operates under stringent management policies to ensure ethical and sustainable hunting practices.

Robbie, the host, sets the stage by explaining the recent pivotal change: for the first time since 2020, international hunters are permitted to hunt non-exportable elephants in Limpopo Province. This decision marks a substantial shift in South Africa's approach to elephant conservation and hunting.

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Recent Changes in Limpopo Province

The conversation begins with Robbie highlighting the groundbreaking decision by the Limpopo Department of Economic Development, Environment and Tourism to allow international hunting of non-exportable elephants:

Robbie [07:15]: "International hunters may now hunt non-exportable elephants in the Limpopo Province."

John Luyt explains the historical context:

John Luyt [10:25]: "In 2021, the Humane Society International obtained a court order that halted all exportable elephant quotas from South Africa. Since then, no elephants have been exported."

Prior to this ruling, elephant hunting was predominantly an international enterprise, significantly contributing to conservation funding. The court's intervention disrupted this revenue stream, causing substantial financial strain on conservation efforts.

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Protocols and Ethics in APNR

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the strict protocols established by the APNR to regulate elephant hunting responsibly. John Luyt emphasizes that these protocols are self-imposed by the reserves, designed to maintain sustainability and ethical standards:

John Luyt [10:25]: "The protocols in place were actually developed by the reserve themselves... to ensure sustainability and responsible utilization."

These protocols encompass:

• Age and Genetic Considerations: Ensuring hunted elephants are mature and do not negatively impact population genetics.
• Audit Processes: Every hunted animal is reviewed annually to verify compliance with established protocols.
• Strict Fines: Outfitters face substantial fines for any deviations, ensuring adherence to rules.

John Luyt [12:45]: "There are strict fines in place to ensure that outfitters comply with the protocols."

Furthermore, these protocols extend beyond elephants, applying to all species hunted within the reserves to maintain overall ecological balance.

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Economic Impacts on Conservation Efforts

The cessation of elephant exports had a profound economic impact on conservation initiatives. John Luyt outlines the financial challenges faced by the reserves:

John Luyt [28:00]: "The anti-poaching costs are greater than 50% of their total budget... without hunting income, they would have to cut budgets, affecting anti-poaching and other conservation efforts."

Robbie adds context by referencing a study from Northwest University, showing that hunting tourism generates substantial indirect economic benefits:

Robbie [21:10]: "For every dollar spent in South Africa's hunting sector, $2 is generated indirectly through agriculture, trade, accommodations, hospitality, and industry."

This multiplier effect underscores the critical role of elephant hunting in supporting not just conservation but the broader South African economy.

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Limpopo's Reopening to International Hunting

Following the restrictive court order, Limpopo Province, alongside Mpumalanga, began exploring avenues to mitigate financial losses. Robbie details the timeline and strategic responses:

Robbie [20:00]: "Mpumalanga decided in 2022 to issue non-export permits to international hunters, enhancing their revenue stream."

However, Limpopo initially resisted this approach. The recent decision to allow non-exportable elephant hunting marks a tentative yet significant step towards economic recovery for the reserves. John Luyt explains the conditions attached to this reopening:

John Luyt [24:57]: "There are strict conditions... clients and outfitters must sign off on the trophy and any parts that cannot be exported, ensuring that the reserves retain the products for potential future use."

This move is seen as a pathway to restore some of the lost income while maintaining ethical standards and sustainability.

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Future Implications and Conclusions

As the episode concludes, both Robbie and John Luyt reflect on the broader implications of this regulatory change. John Luyt expresses cautious optimism:

John Luyt [25:09]: "It's a positive step, but we are still a long way from full recovery. The reserves need to rebuild their budgets to support essential anti-poaching measures."

Robbie emphasizes the importance of public understanding and support for sustainable hunting practices:

Robbie [30:58]: "We hope to start gaining back ground through education campaigns, advocating for sustainable and ethical hunting as a conservation model."

The episode underscores the delicate balance between hunting as a tool for conservation funding and the ethical considerations necessary to maintain wildlife populations sustainably. The recent policy shift in Limpopo represents a cautious yet hopeful move towards reconciling these factors.

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Key Takeaways

• Policy Shift: Limpopo Province has reopened elephant hunting to international hunters under strict non-exportable conditions, a significant change since the 2021 court ruling.

• Sustainability Protocols: The APNR has established rigorous protocols to ensure ethical and sustainable hunting practices, including strict fines for non-compliance.

• Economic Impact: Elephant hunting contributes substantially to conservation funding and the broader South African economy, with forested benefits from hunting tourism.

• Future Outlook: While the reopening is a positive development, continued efforts are needed to fully restore funding and support conservation initiatives.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Robbie [07:15]: "International hunters may now hunt non-exportable elephants in the Limpopo Province."

• John Luyt [10:25]: "In 2021, the Humane Society International obtained a court order that halted all exportable elephant quotas from South Africa. Since then, no elephants have been exported."

• John Luyt [12:45]: "There are strict fines in place to ensure that outfitters comply with the protocols."

• Robbie [21:10]: "For every dollar spent in South Africa's hunting sector, $2 is generated indirectly through agriculture, trade, accommodations, hospitality, and industry."

• John Luyt [24:57]: "There are strict conditions... clients and outfitters must sign off on the trophy and any parts that cannot be exported, ensuring that the reserves retain the products for potential future use."

• Robbie [30:58]: "We hope to start gaining back ground through education campaigns, advocating for sustainable and ethical hunting as a conservation model."

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Conclusion

Episode 578 of the Blood Origins podcast offers a comprehensive look into the evolving landscape of elephant hunting in South Africa's Limpopo Province. Through the expertise of John Luyt, listeners gain valuable insights into the interplay between hunting regulations, conservation efforts, and economic sustainability. This episode underscores the importance of ethical hunting practices and informed policy-making in achieving long-term wildlife conservation goals.

Transcript

[Robbie]

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[John Lait]

Brittany?

[Robbie]

My name is. Does my hair look okay? My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the caught of me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter. Can you hear me okay?

[John Lait]

Yeah, I can hear you fine.

[Robbie]

Okay, perfect. Let's go for it, brother. You good? Ready to go?

[John Lait]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

John Late Duke Safaris. Welcome to the Blood Origins podcast. This is your very first podcast and I promised I'd be gentle.

[John Lait]

Thank you, Robbie. Please do. I'd rather be facing a must. Elephant. Bull.

[Robbie]

I know, it's so funny, man. You all you professional hunters are the same, man. You guys freaking stare down elephant charges, lions charge you. Not that you are hunting lions where you are, but you're running around in areas with lions and leopards and buffalo. Yet when you get on the podcast, you guys turn into like little school girls, man, that shaking and like, I don't know. This is my. This is. Yeah, you are that. Whatever. John, welcome to the Blood Origins podcast, man. I'm really happy to have you. And really we're having this conversation for a very specific reason and it's news that really came out almost just a couple of days ago and I wanted to record a podcast about it. And in talking to Audrey, the CEO of Custodians, one of the professional hunting associations in, in South Africa, she suggested that we reach out to you. And so before we get into the topic, do you mind just introducing yourself, who you are, what you do.

[John Lait]

So John, late, I've been hunting for about 30 years and passionate outdoorsman and yeah, like wild places, wild things and yeah, I've just done a. I'm an outfitter myself and I spent a lot of time in the outdoors also in the wildlife management side. Started off there and now pretty much been an outfitter for the last 25 years. And that's where we are oversee A lot of the hunting in some of the bigger reserves and ensure that protocols and ethics are met. And that's just one of my responsibilities.

[Robbie]

And when we talk about hunting in the bigger reserves, the discussion that we're talking about today is one of the very few places that has, or probably not even very few places, the place that has specific hunting protocols tied to elephants is in the apnr. What does the APNR stand for, John?

[John Lait]

So APNR is the Associate Private Nature Reserves. And the protocol associated with what?

[Robbie]

With Kruger. Right.

[John Lait]

Well, it's a associated reserves adjoining Kruger. They share a common border with Kruger and obviously have to go through Kruger for a lot of their management decisions and be vetted by their decisions. Have to be vetted by Kruger too. So all on the same page. We had to adopt the Kruger management policy before the fences would come down.

[Robbie]

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[John Lait]

So to a large extent we have adopted Kruger's management criteria and policies in able to have a bigger piece of land available for movement of game across a bigger landscape. And you mentioned there Robbie, the strict protocols for elefant. I'll have you know that the protocols in place were actually developed by the reserve themselves. They weren't protocols that were enforced on on the apnr. The APNR themselves put these protocols together to ensure sustainability and responsible utilization. And not only is it for elephant, it's for all species that may be hunted there. So there's a very, very rigid protocol and policies in place to ensure that we're not transgressing on the genetics and age demographics within the population of the apnr.

[Robbie]

Maybe for some context here, why did the APNR decide to put these protocols in place, John?

[John Lait]

Well, first of all, I think you must realize that the APNOS is they're all very like minded people. People that are very responsible and all about conservation and wildlife. And for them to be able to we need to prove to the public that what we're doing is sustainable and real. We obviously need the buying from our neighbors to be able to accept what we're doing. And unless we can, we need to make it easy for our neighbors to. Before we can apply for quota, we have to get our neighbors consent. And without a decent sort of protocol that holds water and that is responsible and ethical, you know, you're not going to get everyone's buy in. So it's not. We, I wouldn't say that we have those policies just to, just to be, you know, to tick the boxes. I think we're doing it because it's our passion and what's, it's what we believe in. But it does ensure, you know, responsible utilization of those species and things are done properly. Every single, every single animal taken is audited at the end of the year on age and to see if it's made protocol. It's made, it's, you know, it's, it's ticked all the boxes and if not we reduce the croto or we, or we, we issue fines.

[Robbie]

Yeah, I wanted to, to make a note on that. Your protocols and you've mentioned for most. Do you have. Maybe I'm even unaware. Are there protocols for every species? I thought there were protocols in place just for buffalo and elephant. Are there protocols for every species?

[John Lait]

Yeah, so, so if there were. So obviously every, every, every species that we hunt there has to be, you know, if it was plains game for example, it would need to be, it would just needs to be, you know, a mature individual beyond its sort of prime. But for any of the iconic species, whether it be and not these species aren't necessarily being hunted now. But the protocol makes provision that if ever they were to be hunted, that there are very strict laws, age based laws as well as, and on certain species it's difficult to tell age. But we've, you know, we've obviously our representatives that take part on an activity on the reserve have to be well versed in aging of animals as well as, you know, looking for the ideal type of animal, whether it be old or beyond prime or injured or whatever the case might be.

[Robbie]

And I don't want to gloss over the fact you've already said it already, but with, even with those strict protocols in place, you also have very strict like fines. Like if somebody doesn't do the job, you're like, excuse my French, you fucked up and you're gonna pay.

[John Lait]

Absolutely. And I mean that's unfortunately that's one of the only ways of really you know, if you, if you accepting, if you're accepting outfitters into those areas and you've got to, you're always going to be hunting with someone new. You know, your older outfitters that have been there for years and years and years, you know, they're turning the line, it's no problem. But you can't just rely on having your old faces there, you know, if you, you need to be, you know, taking on new people all the time. And the only way to encourage these people and make sure that they're toeing the line is to have the fines and put the fines in place. So there is a, there's certainly there's a reserve representative that goes along on every single safari and makes sure that every species is vetted by the reserve representative. So, and then there are strict fines in place should the, you know, should it not make protocol? So for the most part the reserve rep would, would, would basically say, you know, he believes the age is fine and the size is fine according to the specific animal being taken. And, and if it still is over, it's up to the, it's up to the client or the, or the, the outfitter to, to cover the fine. So he will sign a, he will sign the protocol before the safari and he would then be responsible for any fines he signed. He's, he has a, he has a, a list of all the fines that would be, you know, an example of the, of the fines that would be in, imposed on, on a transgression. And, and he has to sign that and agree to that before he even sets foot on the reserve.

[Robbie]

Wow. Well, well, well. So the reason I have you on is a decision came out literally two days ago or maybe even yesterday. It's within, you know, 24 Monday, Monday we're talking now and it's Tuesday. So it is yesterday that there has been a confirmation from the Limpopo Department of Economic Development, Environment and Tourism and that's led it. So Limpopo is a province of South Africa. The APNR Kruger is part of Limpopo. That international hunters may now hunt non exportable elephants. Huge news. Explain to me why that's big. Because I, international hunters couldn't hunt elephants before in South Africa.

[John Lait]

That's, that's right. Now they, so to put you in the picture in, in 21 or 22, our issuing authority or our minister was taken to court by the HSI and they were taken to court on the basis that they were not following protocol when putting together the quota for, for elephant. And there were three species involved, but elephant is the one that affected us the most. So in that, I think that is in 2021, and that was granted and the court, it was ruled that no CITES tags would be given out for elephant that year. And it affected, unfortunately, all the reserves that were hunting elephant, unfortunately. And no elephants were hunted that season. And that amounted to a huge amount of money that. That the reserves lost. And yeah, unfortunately, the next.

[Robbie]

John, what would you say your percentage at the time? So let's go back to 2020, when you still had. Dare I. Where we still had exportable elephants. Was the. The hunting of elephants 100% international?

[John Lait]

Yeah, yeah. South Africa. So to put it in a nutshell. So obviously elephants commanded a really good price. Exportable elephants commanded a really good price, and the reserve made, you know, made decent income on the hunting of the responsible hunting of elephant in the reserves. After the. I would say that once the court case was. Was completed and we weren't, and. And the issuing authority withdrew those permits, we never hunted any elephants. The next year. They still. We still could not hunt or export elephants. So those elephants were then sold to. Well, what actually happened is Mpumalanga, the Mpumalanga Parks, they. They decided to. To take on the decision and decided that CITES doesn't involve South African hunters. So they were realizing the reserve were losing large amounts of money from the income of hunted elephants. So what they did is they stuck their necks out and decided that they would put out elephant permits to South Africans. And that was the small loophole at the time. And at that point, Limpopo decided. Limpopo didn't go ahead with that. Mpumalanga Parks did that and Pumalanga managed to get a quota out. And that was a massive success at the time. Now, all of a sudden, we now at least had our quota that we could sell to South Africans. And I would say that the income from South African hunters is probably in the region of about 50% of what it should have been. Fortunately, we managed to sell a lot of those elephants to South Africans, but nowhere near the sort of money we would have got had we been able to export those elephants.

[Robbie]

So you think it's at. You think it's 50%? I'm surprised you said that number. I would have thought it would be less.

[John Lait]

Yeah. So I would say 50%, probably on the trophy fee. You know, there's obviously all sorts of other fees that come in from international hunters coming over, whether it be ammunition, you know, extra activities, flights, all those sort of things. So the bigger number is obviously a lot bigger than that, but it would be fair to say 50 or low. Lower would be the, you know, would be the income from. From.

[Robbie]

Yeah, it's interesting. I just, I just had a. I just had a podcast with a professor out of Northwest University, Pete von de Meva, who just published a study on hunting tourism post Covid in South Africa. And he finally came up with an indirect force multiplier. And their data is showing for every dollar spent In South Africa, $2 is generated indirectly through agriculture, trade, accommodations, hospitality, industry. So it's a three to one. It's essentially, you know, $1 spent equals $3 actually in South Africa.

[John Lait]

Exactly. And that. And that unfortunately never really shows up when you look at the hunting income in South Africa that is never actually shown. Only direct income costs are shown. When, if you look at the numbers that they post every year for income generated through hunting, it's the $1 they're showing, not the $3. Yeah.

[Robbie]

So let's just. So that we got. We make sure we've got this right. Mpumalanga, a different province. Not Limpopo. Lumopa is a different province. Mpumalanga in. Was it 23? Can we say 23. When did they open that up?

[John Lait]

In 22?

[Robbie]

Yeah, in 22. Decided we've got an opportunity to market elephant hunting to locals, to South Africans. No, international guys are coming because we assume international guys want to export ivory. They're not going to come and hunt elephants if they can't export it. So they opened up to locals, locals started hunting Limpopo in 22, said, no, we're not doing that. We're not. We're not going to do what Mpumalanga did. Did Limpopo ever get into the local hunting realm?

[John Lait]

Yeah. No. So what happened was Limpopo did go into the local hunting. So a year later. So to take a step back, so South Africans were hunting and the APNR falls over 50% of it is in Pumalanga, the other 50 in Limpopo. So it falls over both provinces. So what happened was for a year or more, only South Africans were hunting elephants in Limpopo and Mpumalanga at a reduced rate. Then what happened is last year, Mpumalanga stuck their necks out and said, what we're gonna do is they realized the big problem that we had with it was already a huge step forward when they put out permits for South Africans. Then they decided to put out permits, non export permits for foreigners, and Pumalanga has been doing that for 18 months. Already and that was a game changer in itself. So obviously, um, the, the non export permits were being sold for more than a South African safari, but less than an exportable safari. So it was, it was more income again.

[Robbie]

So when was that? 2024 and Pomalanga stepped into that arena in 2024. 23. 23, yeah, yeah.

[John Lait]

And that. So, and so, so we started hunting in Mpumalanga. We started hunting non exporter elephant with, with, with foreigners and obviously the reserves were able to generate a little bit more money at that point. Limpopo wasn't, wasn't happy to take that stance and I'm not sure exactly why that was.

[Robbie]

23 did you say?

[John Lait]

Yeah. So the whole of last year and this year, so to date nothing has happened in Limpopo on a non exportable basis. So what. Basically the decision that came through yesterday is that Limpopo has come on board and is now prepared to, they have signed it off and said they are prepared to allow the hunting of elephants for non export by foreigners. But there are definitely strict conditions. It's only for the APNR and there are conditions where before the safari the client and the outfitter would sign off the trophy and any parts of the trophy that they may not be exported. And even if, even if export did open up in a month's time, those would still not. So the products of that animal would end, would revert back to the reserve. The reserve in case. So they would, they would then retain the, you know, the, the products of that animal which at a later stage could be sold as leather or whichever.

[Robbie]

Yeah, yeah. So that's exceptional news. And it's just, you know, it's just little mouthfuls, right? It's like little chunks getting back to where you guys were.

[John Lait]

Yeah, yeah. And, and I mean that's as much as a, you know, as a positive step. It is. We still, we're still a long way away. You know, five years ago South Africans weren't hunting elephants because it was not affordable. And although that's bad for the South Africans, it's good for the reserves and the economy of the reserves obviously know every cent the reserves are losing. To give you an idea, these large reserves within the APNR, their, their anti poaching costs are greater than 50% of their total budget. So what, what's happening now is, is we've lost a massive amount of income from, from elephants that we weren't, weren't able to hunt. And that money's got to be recovered somewhere or they're going to have to cut the budget. And where would they cut the budget? I think naturally one would cut the biggest budget items and that would be anti poaching, which is scary. So other animals would then suffer at the mercy of the budget cut. So I think one needs to understand the bigger picture that there's one thing when you can plan forward for something like that, but when you have immediate cut in your budget, you got to make things work. And for three years now, those reserves haven't. They've had special levies from their. To their members to try and increase income and they're just not getting there. So. And besides that, other land uses have to take place. We have to have more lodges built, more photographic areas done, higher impact on the landscape. So, yeah, it's massive. And the big challenge now is to get to the next step where our minister would. The quote was sitting there, 150 elephant for South Africa. The quote is there?

[Robbie]

No, because I remember at last year's custodians, they said that dff, right, was.

[John Lait]

Put out in November last year for comment and that should take 60 days. We're in July and nothing has happened. That is scary.

[Robbie]

And HSI hasn't. Hsi have not.

[John Lait]

HSI's interdict was for that year only.

[Robbie]

That's right.

[John Lait]

So it hasn't even covered and we've been expecting an appeal and nothing's happened. It hasn't happened. So we're sitting at a situation now where decisions need to be made and, and you know, it's up to the Minister. Right now. The minister needs to make that call and, and, and allocate that quota and to date, nothing's happened.

[Robbie]

Yeah. It's amazing when you start connecting the dots.

[John Lait]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

Of the impact.

[John Lait]

Right, yeah.

[Robbie]

Well, we can only hope that the minister does what he's supposed to do. Look at the science, look at the impacts, look at the triple bottom line, social, environmental and economic impacts. And there's only really one answer here, that just the way that's being done. Let's just look at Limpopo and Pomalanga and the apnr, specifically the protocols that you have in place, all of the regulations that you have in place, the way that it's undertaken and the benefits that come from it. There is no downside to it.

[John Lait]

Absolutely. And the irony is we're sitting with populations and I'm not by any means saying that hunting controls populations and I'm all very aware of that, but we're sitting with populations that are way beyond what we can deal with in the apnr. The greater landscape, I would say in Kruger, with what they've instituted in Kruger and closing of waterholes and all sorts of things, they said they brought down the sort of growth rate of elephants to a degree. But I believe in the landscape that we're in, I reckon it's actually got worse. If you look at our numbers, and that's data that you can pick up on the Internet anyway, you can look at our numbers and our hectorage and do the math. It is scary what we're dealing with. So it is totally sustainable. Not that I would ever suggest it wasn't. I'm not trying to justify it, but. But it is, you know, when you've got those kind of numbers to deal with, it just doesn't make any sense, you know, to have these.

[Robbie]

Yeah. Well, John, I appreciate your time. I know you're a busy man, you're hunting, but I didn't think there was a better voice to discuss this, especially given your experience and what you do. So I really appreciate it. And yeah, we're trying to get this out as soon as possible because you look at it, it may not be the ideal scenario, but it's better than what we had. And hopefully we can start slowly but surely gaining back the ground and with, you know, hopefully with an education campaign. With that this podcast is a part of, we can start advocating and showing there are, there are definite, triple line, bottom line benefits to elephant hunting that is sustainable, that is ethical, that has no impact on the population. We're not gonna, we're not gonna make elephants endangered anymore. And the only reason somebody is against it is because they just hate the idea of somebody killing an elephant. That's it.

[John Lait]

Sure.

[Robbie]

Well, you did good, dude, for your first podcast. Well done, well done, well done. We'll do it again. Okay? We're going to do it again.

[John Lait]

No, we will, we will. And listen, keep doing what you're doing. I really appreciate what you do. And keep it out there. Yeah, we respect that.

[Robbie]

Thank you, brother. Thank you. All right, well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening.

[John Lait]

As always.

[Robbie]

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[John Lait]

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