Episode 579 - Cullen Kelly || A Family Tradition of Conservation

Summary

Podcast Title: Blood Origins
Episode: 579 - Cullen Kelly || A Family Tradition of Conservation
Host/Author: Blood Origins Inc.
Release Date: July 29, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 579 of Blood Origins, the spotlight shines on Cullen Kelly and his brother Sean Kelly of Gary Kelly Safaris, chronicling their family's unwavering commitment to conservation through sustainable hunting practices in South Africa's Zululand region.

1. The Kelly Family Legacy in Conservation

Cullen Kelly introduces the Kelly family's deep-rooted involvement in wildlife conservation, emphasizing the pivotal role their private nature reserves play in protecting diverse species.

Cullen Kelly [00:54]: "Rhino conservation, lion conservation, incredible buffalo, incredible Nyala, just overall, just an amazing, amazing success story for hunting and its benefits, impacts and consequences on people, wildlife and communities."

Sean Kelly elaborates on their long-standing presence in Zululand since the 1970s, highlighting the transition from cattle farming to pioneering game reserves.

Sean Kelly [06:07]: "Most of it back then was all cattle farming. Very few game farms. Ours was one of the first, called Panata Ranch, now part of Pinda, a famous photographic reserve."

2. Balancing Hunting and Conservation

The brothers discuss the symbiotic relationship between hunting and conservation, explaining how sustainable hunting funds essential conservation efforts.

Sean Kelly [16:02]: "If we didn't have a value to them, what did, what's the purpose of having them? It costs a lot of money to have rhino."

They advocate for a hybrid model combining hunting with photographic tourism to ensure financial viability while preserving wildlife populations.

Sean Kelly [17:31]: "We've got strict quotas that we stick by, bringing in enough income to cover costs of the reserve along with the photographics."

3. Community Engagement and Benefits

A significant aspect of their conservation model is the tangible benefits provided to the local community, fostering a cooperative environment.

Sean Kelly [20:40]: "All the meat we hunt, we give every bit to the community. We support 52 families and over 130 people."

They ensure employment opportunities and contribute to local infrastructure, such as transportation for schoolchildren.

Sean Kelly [23:45]: "We're going to get a vehicle for them because the schools are about 10 kilometers away. We're getting a minibus taxi to drive the kids to school."

4. Anti-Poaching Measures

The Kellys underscore the critical importance of anti-poaching initiatives in safeguarding rhino populations, detailing their comprehensive strategies.

Sean Kelly [24:37]: "We're very close to Swaziland, about an hour and 40 minutes to Mozambique. We're always on alert for big rhino poachers coming in."

Their anti-poaching team employs daily patrols, fence inspections, and utilizes technology such as WhatsApp groups for real-time communication.

Sean Kelly [26:05]: "Our guys walk sections of the fence every day to check for tracks and fence breaks."

They share success stories of thwarting poaching attempts and maintaining a robust rhino population.

Sean Kelly [29:10]: "We haven't lost a rhino recently. Last loss was two years ago due to a poaching incident near a waterhole."

5. Challenges in Rhino Conservation

Despite their efforts, the Kellys face ongoing challenges, including sophisticated poachers and legal hurdles in prosecuting offenders.

Sean Kelly [39:32]: "The court cases take forever. By the time the guy gets charged, he's often out on bail and committing more poaching incidents."

They discuss potential solutions, such as specialized courts for wildlife crimes and improved technology to stay ahead of poachers.

Sean Kelly [40:46]: "Legalizing the trade and rhino horn could drastically bring down poaching by flooding the market and reducing black-market incentives."

6. Future Outlook and Sustainability

Looking ahead, the Kelly brothers express optimism about their conservation strategies and the potential for enhancing their reserves.

Sean Kelly [43:18]: "Our aim is to make this reserve one of the most amazing, protecting our rhino and all other game, working well with the community for the long run."

They plan to continue integrating sustainable practices, leveraging both hunting and photographic tourism to ensure the longevity of their conservation efforts.

Notable Quotes

• Cullen Kelly [00:54]: "An amazing success story for hunting and its benefits, impacts and consequences on people, wildlife and communities."

• Sean Kelly [06:07]: "Ours was one of the first game reserves in the area."

• Sean Kelly [16:02]: "If we didn't have a value to them, what's the purpose of having them?"

• Sean Kelly [20:40]: "We support 52 families and over 130 people."

• Sean Kelly [24:37]: "We're always on alert for big rhino poachers coming in."

• Sean Kelly [39:32]: "Court cases take forever, and poachers often commit more crimes while awaiting trial."

• Sean Kelly [43:18]: "Protecting our rhino and all other game, working well with the community for the long run."

Conclusion

Episode 579 of Blood Origins offers an insightful exploration into the Kelly family's dedication to balancing sustainable hunting with robust conservation efforts. Through community engagement, stringent anti-poaching measures, and innovative conservation strategies, Cullen and Sean Kelly exemplify how hunting can be a viable model for wildlife preservation. Their story underscores the intricate interplay between ecological stewardship and socio-economic benefits, painting a comprehensive picture of modern conservation practices in South Africa.

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Note: Advertisements and promotional segments interspersed within the transcript have been excluded to maintain focus on the core discussion.

Transcript

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[Cullen Kelly]

Cullen Kelly is one of the brothers of Gary Kelly Safaris. The other brother is Sean Kelly. Colin and I caught up face to face in person on their concession in Zululand. Mikuzi Falls, Mikuzee Falls and the areas around Mikuzi Falls are prime example of what private nature reserves with different values can do for wildlife conservation. The operation that the Kellys are undertaking with the community benefiting from it is incredible. Rhino conservation, lion conservation, incredible. Buffalo, incredible Nyala, just overall, just an amazing, amazing success story for hunting and its benefits, impacts and consequences on people, wildlife and communities. I can't, I can't say it any more succinctly.

[Robbie]

Listen to this podcast.

[Cullen Kelly]

You'll get a great idea of what real wild private land conservation looks like in South Africa. Enjoy. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting.

[Robbie]

It brings awareness to, to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals.

[Braxton]

How do I start it?

[Robbie]

Brittany?

[Sean Kelly]

My name.

[Braxton]

Does my hair look okay?

[Robbie]

My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter. All right, let's make sure that my cell phone's over there doesn't interfere. Is Gary Kelly Safaris known for like their foot phs?

[Sean Kelly]

We're trying to change the town.

[Robbie]

You're trying to change the culture.

[Sean Kelly]

Culture. Murray's eight weeks into his rehab, he's redefining his physicality. Sean goes through his moments and Ollie is, he's trying. He does it once a month.

[Robbie]

Colin Kelly, welcome to the Blood Origins podcast.

[Sean Kelly]

Thanks Robbie. Good to have you here. It's been a long time and we are we grateful for your, for your presence. It's exciting to have you here.

[Robbie]

Yeah, man. You know, we've been talking about doing all of the.

[Cullen Kelly]

To me and I got, I don't.

[Robbie]

Know why I got such stick. I did a post on, I think it was Scruff's episode and I said, you know, Blood Origins, we've been really interested in telling the story of like stalwart South African hunting families who did the knots carries hunted with the knots way back in the day. We've done the Martins that's tied to your family. Kelly Martins. Great Kelly Martins.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, that's correct.

[Robbie]

Barcy Martins being the first professional hunter in South Africa registered. Then we did the for marks Kunran Bullet for Mark as being, you know, the longest standing outfit with DSC of 45 years or something silly like that.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

And then the last family, I said, I said this all in this post and last family is the Kelly's. Yeah, I got like so many, like you forgot so many people, 30 names. And I said, yeah, they sound all good. But are they. Have they been going since.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, since the 70s, 70s.

[Robbie]

No, they haven't been. The great ph is maybe, you know, one guy in the 90s, one guy in the 2000s, you know, maybe one old stalwart, but he's long and gone. Yeah, you know, they're not still around.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, they're not still operating and their sons are not in the business or something like that.

[Robbie]

Yeah, it's crazy, man. So, yeah, that's why we're here. And I think, you know, we, we've done, we did Scruff and Craig and Howard. We did Howard a little differently. We didn't really tell the knot story we told and this is why we're going to do yours the same way as we did Howard's is that I don't want to. I think there's a much richer story. Not to, not to throw away the Kelly story, but I think there's a much richer story behind the things that Gary has put in place here and the work that he's done here over 30 years. How long has he been here? So he's.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, he's been in, in zululand since the 70s, a little bit away from you. He's been in Zulu land since the 70s. Is that better? Yeah, yeah. So he, yeah, he started in Zulu land in the 70s. So he's been here, you know, for.

[Robbie]

What would Gary say this landscape used to be like?

[Sean Kelly]

Well, most of it back then was all cattle farming. Yeah, very, very few game farms back then. Ours at that stage was one of the first game reserves in the area and it was called Panata Ranch. And that right now is part of Pinda, which is a famous photographic reserve in the area.

[Robbie]

So it started as hunting.

[Sean Kelly]

Started as hunting.

[Robbie]

Somebody you know, Peter Kennedy?

[Sean Kelly]

Yes, very well.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

So Peter Kennedy said he wants to build a map. He wants to build a map of Africa, country by country. And he wants to color it like yellow, light green, dark green. And the color coordination is tied to what has transpired in the past. I can't remember how we put it.

[Cullen Kelly]

All together, but if you look at.

[Robbie]

Kruger, you look at Pinda, you look at Schischlooi and fellows, you look at all addo. All those places before they became those grandiose game reserves, nature reserves were hunted. Yeah, that started as a hunting reserve. And it's almost like the hunting community takes these places like this place. Cattle ranchers says, no, no, no, let's start thinking more wildlife orientated.

[Cullen Kelly]

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[Robbie]

And if you don't have the money.

[Cullen Kelly]

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[Robbie]

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[Cullen Kelly]

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[Robbie]

And creates these jewels, these gems and then nature conservation or government comes in and goes that looks amazing now. Thank you so much. We're going to take it away from you and we're going to make it into a photographic area.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, that's exactly what happens. The hunters create this, you know, these beautiful areas because they put a lot of time and effort and anti poaching and all that stuff and then, you know, either taken back by the government or, you know, private equity, big money guys come in and take it over.

[Robbie]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's just fascinating. I'M always. I'm very. As you know me, I'm just interested in finding these, like, nuggets of information to say you haven't actually, you know, you bash hunters all the time. You bash hunting all the time. But look at these gems that we've created.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Sean Kelly]

If it, if, I mean, a lot of these areas, if it wasn't for hunting, they would never have been created.

[Robbie]

When you were growing up with your dad, he constantly involve you in all the hunting aspects or how did that happen?

[Sean Kelly]

You know, from, from when we were kids, from as long as I can remember, we were always going on hunts with them. School holidays.

[Robbie]

With clients.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, with clients. So we were, you know, obviously I'm the youngest of my three brothers, so I remember going on a rhino hunt when I was 6 years old with my dad, you know, and we'd be stand back, walk with the trackers and yeah, every holiday we were with them on the safari.

[Robbie]

Was that something that Gary was like, known for? Because I don't think very many people were hunting rhinos.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, I would think, yeah, definitely the rhinos. If you look back, you know, my dad's a very modest guy. He, you know, he's quite shy. You would never say it, but I don't think there's anyone that's hunted as many rhino in South Africa as my father. And, you know, back in those days.

[Robbie]

Did he just specialize in it? Did he just make a niche for himself? Like, that's what I'm good at. That's what I know how to do.

[Sean Kelly]

I think that. But also, he was. He was lucky in terms of him being. His areas had white rhino, a good population of them, where they were able to. To hunt them.

[Robbie]

When did the whole rhino relocation boom happen? Was that before the 70s?

[Sean Kelly]

Yes.

[Robbie]

With player and whatnot?

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, Ian Player and Norman Dean was very instrumental who my dad worked for. He was involved with Ian Player.

[Robbie]

Who's Norman Dean? Is he like that Was first outfitter here in South Africa. What was.

[Sean Kelly]

Norman Dean was the first outfitter in South Africa. And my dad was, I think 8, 18 or 19, and he started working from out of Sulu Land Safari Lodge, which is not far from here. And that's where, you know, it was. It was Obizan Mkusi Game Reserve, where they brought the rhino back. So Zulu Land Safari Lodge, if I'm not mistaken, Aubazine is where they had rhino and they had. That's where they did the first rhino hunt with. With Norman Dean and my dad.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

Were they. Were they bringing rhino into these places. And maybe this is a question for Gary, but were they bringing these rhinos into these places and then giving them opportunities to breed up or is it like, okay, we brought in 10 rhinos, now we need to hunt one or two to keep the money coming in. Like, obviously what's happening here today.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, I think that would be a good question for my dad. I don't know how it was back then, but, you know, they were trying to repopulate. Right.

[Robbie]

They were trying to take rhino out of sister and flows and push them into all these new areas and start new breeding herds and new populations of rhino.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah. So I think back then what they were doing is if they would hunt a rhino, they would use the funding from that, some of the funds from that to go purchase more rhino and bring them in to, to, to, you know, to increase their, their herds.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

And increased number of possible hunts that.

[Sean Kelly]

They could, that could also sell.

[Robbie]

Yeah, but to a point, obviously. Yeah, sure. It was fascinating, man. It's just, you know, and now obviously we're in a rhino poaching crisis, reason why we're here. But if you look around South Africa right now and you guys have been in the rhino conservation game, how long do you think you, you could say you've been in the rhino conservation game?

[Sean Kelly]

Well, I mean, if I'd go back to where my dad was first started, so since the 70s, you know, for.

[Robbie]

Sure it'd be interesting, it'd be fascinating to hear Gary's perspective and we'll get it. But you know, it's 50 years. 20, 27 is 50 years since the trade of rhino horn was put in place. 1977, 2017 was the four year anniversary and that's when Swaziland put their proposal forward to sell their white rhinos. And they lost. 26 countries said yes, 17 abstained, 100 said no.

[Sean Kelly]

That's interesting.

[Robbie]

In 2017. So have rhinos done better since 2017 to today?

[Sean Kelly]

I'm not sure.

[Robbie]

You know, I think like Pierre said yesterday, if you look at this property and these nature reserves around here, do you think you've got more rhino today than you did say 10 years ago?

[Sean Kelly]

If you had to look back, I would say definitely. Yeah, yeah.

[Robbie]

So I would say in certain, in certain places rhinos are doing better.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, for sure.

[Robbie]

But they're only doing better in places that have money.

[Sean Kelly]

That's exactly right, yeah, yeah. You know, if it's because we've got, we've got the, the funds through hunting, through sustainable utilization, to be able to protect Them and that's, that's why we have them. Because if we didn't have a value to them, what did, what's the purpose of, of having them? Because it costs a lot of money to have rhino. Not just obviously you got your costs of running your reserve. Now added rhino, the, the anti poaching, you know, it all adds up very quickly.

[Robbie]

Do you think obviously you guys hunt, you don't hunt elephant here yet, right?

[Sean Kelly]

No, we unfortunately we don't because of the, we don't have any permits. You know the government South Africa hasn't been issued any, any permits.

[Robbie]

Yeah, but you do have lion.

[Sean Kelly]

We got lion without.

[Robbie]

If you took. Obviously lion is a anomaly in this system. If you didn't have. Let's, it's tough to say but let's make an assumption. There's no Ryan, there's no rhino hunting here, there's no lion hunting here.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

Or still make it.

[Sean Kelly]

It's a, it's a very good question. So we, we on this property we do a hybrid of photographic and hunting and there would be no way unless we would run at 80% occupancy to cover the costs if we didn't hunt lion and rhino. We would be putting in money out of our own pockets if we didn't, if we didn't have those animals as well to hunt.

[Robbie]

And you, you're firmly in the camp that photographics and hunting can work together a hundred percent.

[Sean Kelly]

We've done a chat for multiple years. It's worked very well together. You know, we, we, we don't just you know, shoot anything we see. We, we've got strict quotas that we stick by. So you know, those quotas that we stick by brings in enough income to cover costs of the reserve along with the photographics. So yeah, we've done it and it's, and it's worked well on our side.

[Robbie]

Do you think you'd still need hunting if you're running at 100% occup photographics perspective?

[Sean Kelly]

If we ran at 100%, probably not. But the chances of that with the competition that's around now is. And where we are located would, would be pretty slim to, to run that, that percentage.

[Robbie]

And we've been talking about other areas around here elevating their photographic camps, right?

[Sean Kelly]

That's correct.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

Going from your normal like hey is an, an average South African citizen could probably afford to come to these photographic lodges but now there's certain photographic lodges that are going to elevate way above.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah. So and if I look at our area here, most of them is, are unaffordable to South Africans. As I told you, we redoing our photographic lodge and we're going to make it affordable to South Africans because we feel that's important part. But yeah, I, I think to get to, even to get to 60% will still be a, A challenge, but I think it's definitely something that we can achieve.

[Robbie]

Yeah. Well, again, what we talked about. Hey, look at that blue sky. It's been raining like cats and dogs here. You know, somebody driving in from Durban, you know, you're going past Shishloo and Flows, you're going past Pinda Tanda, you talked all about it. There's lots and lots of places that people would, could, they could all go to before they come all the way in here.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

And what are you offering them in here? Again, everything's got to be a little different. Like what are you. Maybe it's the rooms, maybe it's the service, maybe it's. Yeah, but the game is the game.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, that's exactly right. So you've got all those reserves, so you've got to have something a little bit different. And I think, I think we're fortunate in terms of the landscape. We've got a big river and the game viewing is amazing. So. But yeah, the competition is. There's a lot of competition.

[Robbie]

Here comes the singing troop.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah. Hopey Hope. Can you tell them to keep quiet?

[Robbie]

Just close the door, that's all. They're doing well, doing a great job. Join in. You know, one of the things that we're doing here from a rhino perspective is trying to understand what it takes to conserve rhino. Obviously money is involved, but what about you? You're a landowner, right? Yes. Now, of this land.

[Braxton]

Yes.

[Robbie]

But you don't own it?

[Sean Kelly]

We don't own the land. We lease the land from the community.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

So maybe first question first. Like a lot of people will point the finger and go, those you guys that are leasing the land, the community gets nothing.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah. So the way we've, we've structured our setup here is, is I don't, I wouldn't. Can't speak on, on other areas. But we feel that the, the community benefit greatly. So we have a long lease on the land. We pay them a lease every year. And all the meat, whatever we hunt, we give every single bit of meat to the community. There's 52 families and over 130 people that we support. And obviously, other than that, we employ all community members in the main lodge, in our hunting lodge.

[Robbie]

So all these guys that we see here, they're all from the local community.

[Sean Kelly]

They're all from our local community.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Sean Kelly]

So you know, we support them tremendously. If it wasn't for us that none of them would have jobs and this.

[Robbie]

Would, was where else could they get jobs here? Wouldn't it be. Who else? What are the photographic campers around here?

[Sean Kelly]

There's a lot of other photographic camps but you know they've, they've got all their staff already. So the competition, there's a lot of competition.

[Robbie]

Okay.

[Sean Kelly]

So they, you know, and at least this is their place. We just leasing it and it's good for them to, to work out to see that we looking after their land because you know we'll obviously put in capital and obviously we've got a long lease. But it's, you know, it's good for them to see that we maintaining the roads, we're doing the anti poaching, we taking care of the bush, you know, we looking after the structures.

[Robbie]

When you say you're taking care of the bush, tell what are you doing?

[Sean Kelly]

So we're. There's lots of alien plant vegetation that we need to, to get rid of. Sibor is a big one. Parthenium. So yeah, I mean it's just never ending. Lantana, you mean hunt Parthenium. And then lantana is another separate one. So those are the three main things that we, we try to get rid of.

[Braxton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Robbie]

Then you also talked about the chairperson. What does he do with the meat sometimes?

[Sean Kelly]

So with the, with their meat, what they'll either do is they'll let's for instance, if we hunted a buffalo, they'll either distribute it to, to the, the members of the community. But if we' quite a few and they, they've had a lot of meat. He'll sell the meat. There's a butchery down the road and from those funds they'll utilize those funds. If there's someone in the community that needs to go to school or university or you know, to better themselves. That's, that's obviously what, what he'll use it for as well.

[Robbie]

The. Are there any stipulations in your lease agreement or contract with the community? Are you doing school work of your building schools? I know a lot of hunting outfits, you know, South Africa, but mainly, you know, more Zambia, Zimbabwe, Tanzania kind of thing or building schools and clinics and all that kind of stuff. Is that happening here?

[Sean Kelly]

So.

[Robbie]

Not really.

[Sean Kelly]

Not really. We don't have that on our lease because the, the schools are already here. What we are going to be doing is, is we will be getting a vehicle for them because you know, they don't have transport. So the school's maybe 10 kilometers away. So we're going to get like a minibus taxi to drive the kids to school. But the schools are here already. There's multiple schools in the area so it wouldn't really be beneficial to go and build the school. And those are government operated schools really. So it gets a bit complicated just to like Tanzania and the other countries. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Robbie]

So from a rhino protection perspective, what, what are the things that you have to deal with? And I would say again, I go back to the original question which is you're a landowner, right?

[Sean Kelly]

Yes.

[Robbie]

Like what are you sitting up at night worrying about the most?

[Sean Kelly]

So I think where we located is quite a tricky position because we're very close to Swaziland. We're 45 minutes drive to the Swaziland border and about an hour and 40 minutes to Mozambique. So we, every week we getting information that big rhino poachers coming in. So it's you, you always on alerts. You've your, your anti poaching team is, you know, it's must be a different.

[Robbie]

Beast because you obviously hunt everywhere.

[Sean Kelly]

Yes.

[Robbie]

You're not just here all the time.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah. So we've got a management team obviously. So my dad manages the reserve for us so he deals with that. But Obviously we own WhatsApp group. So I mean it is, it's, it's relentless. It's, it's a, it's a never ending battle. It's you on, you're on alert all the time because sometimes it goes quiet and that's obviously when you know that that's when things happen. So you know, it's just you've always got to be on top of it and, and you know, just make sure that you know, your, your guys are committed and don't get, you know, complaints.

[Robbie]

How do you stay on top of it?

[Sean Kelly]

Just making sure that, you know, every single day you do the same routines. You check the fences every day because obviously that's your boundary. You need to make sure that you.

[Robbie]

What are the guys checking the boundary fence for?

[Sean Kelly]

So for guys coming in. So they'll check and walk our fence every single day to make sure that they don't find tracks coming in.

[Robbie]

You know, obviously they're just walking certain sections.

[Sean Kelly]

No, they'll walk. So each, we've got a couple of different guys. They'll each walk, you know, maybe like a five kilometer section of the fence. To check that.

[Robbie]

So they'll get dropped off by a guy that's driving around and dropping each of the team members off.

[Sean Kelly]

Correct.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

And they're looking for fence breaks.

[Sean Kelly]

Fence breaks for coming in footprints. Footprints. Y. Obviously we surrounded by community so it would be an issue if we ever had like a line or something get out. That would be a whole another story. Yeah, so it's just, you got to always just check your boundary. Yeah. Which is super important. And I mean we, we'll do like mock runs with the dog unit like you guys saw the other day, to, to keep guys, you know, on alert on their training. And then obviously, you know, they can't work all the time. So our guys work 21 days on and then they have seven days off. You know that.

[Robbie]

Seven days people in total for your team.

[Sean Kelly]

So we've got, on our anti poaching side, we've got I think 16 guys now.

[Robbie]

Okay.

[Braxton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Robbie]

And the other. So in total there's lots of obviously properties around you that have their own anti poaching units.

[Sean Kelly]

Correct.

[Robbie]

So what do you think in total, are there people being employed for anti poaching in this area?

[Sean Kelly]

Well over 100 guys for sure. If I look at all the reserves, if you include, you know, just our area here and if you go to some kind of mignoni, Pinda, tanda, I mean Definitely over 100 guys for sure.

[Robbie]

Do you have an estimate on how many rhinos are in this entire complex?

[Sean Kelly]

Are you talking about just. Yeah. Close to us or you want to include Punda?

[Robbie]

No, let's not include Punda. Let's talk about here.

[Sean Kelly]

Wihilo, Amakosi, Vili, Besson and Somkhanda.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Sean Kelly]

And Derekant, I would say.

[Robbie]

And how many acres, firstly, how many hectares do we think that all is encompassing? 200,000.

[Sean Kelly]

So I would say acres. Definitely 200,000 acres.

[Robbie]

And so about a hundred thousand hectares.

[Sean Kelly]

100,000 hectares. And I would say about 150 white rhino and about 70 black rhino.

[Braxton]

Okay, yeah. Okay.

[Sean Kelly]

If I could just think off the top of my head.

[Robbie]

Sure, sure, sure. So anti poaching is obviously number one. You've got a dog unit that we met with a peer yesterday, but a dog unit operating. And that dog unit is spread around all of those different properties that we talked through, right?

[Sean Kelly]

That's correct.

[Robbie]

And you've also got potentially an informant network.

[Sean Kelly]

That's correct.

[Robbie]

That's with one of the farmers.

[Sean Kelly]

That's right.

[Robbie]

And then obviously also your community guys, the anti poaching guys are all part of the community.

[Sean Kelly]

That's right.

[Robbie]

All whatsapped into the community and whatnot. And I assume any sort of, hey, there's a strange dude here. Or there's.

[Sean Kelly]

Yes, it comes back to us quickly. That's right, yeah.

[Robbie]

You got all that in place. You haven't lost a rhino here recently?

[Sean Kelly]

Not yet. Not. Not recently, yes.

[Robbie]

When was last did you lose a rhino?

[Sean Kelly]

It was two years ago.

[Robbie]

How many did you lose? One.

[Sean Kelly]

Just one?

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

It was something that was close to the fence or how did. What happened there?

[Sean Kelly]

It was. It was on the southeastern side, so there's a district road and it was pretty close to a fence and right at a waterhole. So they walked in, found the tracks at the hood, all shot the rhino, took the horn.

[Robbie]

And you think it was more of that rhino being there frequently and people driving by, seeing the rhino and go, oh, there's a rhino there.

[Sean Kelly]

I don't think so because it's quite. You can't. From the district road, you can't actually see that area. But I definitely think those guys.

[Robbie]

You don't think the rhino was closer to the fence where they could. He could be seen?

[Sean Kelly]

I think they knew where that water hole was and they walked there, found the.

[Robbie]

Just by luck, happenstance.

[Sean Kelly]

No, I think they have had information that rhino frequented this water hole and then. And then went there. You know, also the area, as you've seen with all the hills, a guy can sit in the community on the hill with his. And look and, and he can see into this property and he, he can pick up a rhino and he could drop a pin to guys easy and they could come in and you know that it's just. The land is so vast. Like, how do you protect it 24 7?

[Robbie]

Well, that's the tricky part is that it's number one, it's vast. Number two, it's thick.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

Like, I don't even understand. Like, it's a disadvantage. It has to be a disadvantage for both teams. But it doesn't seem like it's a disadvantage for the poaching team. Yeah, it's also. It's full of creditors. Yeah, it's full of lines and elephants and whatnot. But it's not. That doesn't deter them at all.

[Sean Kelly]

No, that, that seems like they don't even worry about that. They just want. If they're on for the rhino, they go straight in because, I mean, we've got, we've got a lot of line here. So the chances of them bumping into something is pretty, pretty, you know, pretty Good.

[Robbie]

That could happen.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, for sure. And.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

Yet the value of that rhino horn is such that it's worth it for them.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

Worth. Worth risking their lives.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

What'd you say? You told me. Was it you telling a story of a poacher getting smacked by a lion?

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Sean Kelly]

So it's from. Kinda. But this was a subsistence. A subsistence poacher. So a guy had put up some snares and was caught in a nyala and was carrying the nyala out.

[Robbie]

There are three of them.

[Sean Kelly]

Three. Three guys. And a young male lion actually charged the guy and with the nyala and mauled him really badly. His friends obviously left him and luckily for him, the nyala ended up. I mean, Sorry, the poacher. I mean, the lion ended up eating the nyala and the poacher. Poacher, yeah. And he survived and. But, yeah, he got hammered properly.

[Robbie]

But the other two guys came back.

[Sean Kelly]

They came back the next day. They found him the next day. So it happened at like three in the morning and they found him the next day.

[Robbie]

Sheesh.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

It's unbelievable, man.

[Cullen Kelly]

Let me ask this philosophically.

[Robbie]

Where do you stand with somebody who is a subsistence poacher?

[Sean Kelly]

Well, it gets. It gets tricky, you know, that's why, you know, if you look at our community, the past guys that ran this reserve didn't give them any meat, okay? So we look at it at the ways that we'd rather supply them with meat, and then it will, you know, hopefully alleviate the need for them to come in. But, you know, if you look at a lot of these guys, they, they, you know, they don't have. A lot of people don't have jobs. They're starving. You know, they're just trying to, you know, get. Some of them are trying to get meat for their families and some of them are trying to sell meat. Obviously, the guys that's trying to sell meat's a bit different, but we've always looked at it. And if my dad will tell. Tell this to you. When we had our original game farm, he always shot a couple of animals every month to give to the community, guys close by to try and stop them poaching. But he said, but if I catch you poaching, then you're going to be in big trouble because I've given you guys meat. So, I mean, it's hard because if a guy's just trying to feed his family, you know. But the problem with subsistence poaching, as we've seen at some kind of one of our areas, you know, the snares they're terrible things. They kill the wild dogs they've killed. There was a beautiful big male lion that was killed last year. We've had multiple, you know, leopards caught and snares, cheetah. So, you know, the ripple effect of the snaring is. Is. Is terrible. But, yeah, to go back to the original question, I mean, I do feel bad for the guys, but it's. It's still not right, you know, to. To come and poach for subsistence, even.

[Robbie]

Yeah, it's an. It's a moral dilemma. Yeah, it's a moral dilemma because. And here's the other moral dilemma that I have is it's the number one. It's a moral dilemma to feed someone. Right. If you're starving and you're. And your family needs food, I actually don't have a problem with you going in and.

[Cullen Kelly]

Hunting.

[Robbie]

And if trapping is your mechanism by which you hunt, then so be it. Yes, it's indiscriminate in terms of what it takes. But, you know, again, a subsistence guy, if he's truly a subsistence guy, you don't know whether or not they've got, you know, any sort of thoughts to management or sustainability of the resource or whatnot. They go in, couple of snares, check it regularly because you would want to check it regularly because you're after that meal. And once you've got it, snares come out and done deal, you know, kind of thing. Selling the meat, obviously, you know, is illegal. And so there's a very fine line right there of like, well, what is. There are laws and regulations that need to be followed. The guy's trying to make a living by selling meat, but there's laws and regulations in place that make it illegal in terms of what he's doing. So, yeah, it's a very.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

You know, the last thing I'll say is that for the most part today, hunting is a recreational endeavor. People come. Americans come to enjoy the sport of hunting. They do it for fun. Let me be maybe simplistic about it, and that's okay.

[Braxton]

Yes.

[Robbie]

But if the community guys wanted to recreate and hunt for sport with their dogs, that's looked upon as bad.

[Sean Kelly]

Yes, that is right. Yeah, it is.

[Robbie]

It's a tough dilemma, right?

[Sean Kelly]

It's a tough dilemma. Yeah.

[Robbie]

And it's almost like. It's funny that maybe, again, I don't want to put. I don't want to put people's ideas forward. But, you know, this community land that you're leasing, I'm surprised that in the contract they haven't said no. But we want to be able to run our dogs once a year and do a traditional hunt, which I don't think you would say no to.

[Sean Kelly]

So yeah, I mean with traditional dogs and stuff like that, we would probably say no to them and the only reason why.

[Robbie]

But would you say no if it's a once in a, once a year endeavor, like a, you know, a festival or something like that, they're like, okay, would, you know, once a year we're coming in with dogs and we're gonna, you know, catch a couple of impala.

[Sean Kelly]

So yeah, we would say no because it's often, unfortunately, you know, it's never just once, you know, then it becomes something that's expected. So you kind of need to set that precedent. And you know, if it's something that's a real. I mean, a couple of years ago I was mentioning to you that the king was getting inaugurated. Yeah, we had to, I had to. And he came along and he had to hunt wildebeest and an nyala and we were more than happy to, to do that, but it was done properly. You know, I took him, he shot the animals while clean shot and then they, they left. So, you know, something like that, like that when, when we are able to go along and, and that's what he.

[Robbie]

Wanted, he wanted to hunt it that way. He didn't want to hunt it with. You would assume it would be dogs and stabbing spears and stuff like that. Right?

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Sean Kelly]

So he wanted to hunt it with his, with his gun and all of that. And then, you know, the other part of that is now obviously you get all these community members coming in and then they see all your rhino filters back, you know. So we try and do keep it as, as quiet as possible. You know, I mean, Robbie, we've even had situations where guys have checked in as guests and saying that they are guests, but they're actually being sent by rhino poachers. So they'll go on a game drive, they'll see a rhinos and they'll drop a pin to place. Yeah, didn't even think of that. Yeah, amazing, huh?

[Robbie]

But they're as you said, they're getting or even Pierce said that it's a mate. You'd think the rhino poachers are going to be unsophisticated individuals.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, but they, they, they, they always actually like Pierre was saying yesterday, they're almost a step ahead of us. You know, we always trying to catch up to them.

[Robbie]

How do we get ahead of them? Like what is the thing that's going to get us ahead of them? Is it a massive improvement in a thermal drone technology that we get onto first and say, okay, let's do this. But we've also got regulations that pro doing a lot of things.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, I think we were talking about it today.

[Robbie]

Right. The regulation of.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, when you catch someone, you catch someone.

[Robbie]

Like what happens then? Like, there's no.

[Sean Kelly]

That's the problem in South Africa is you catch someone. The court and I, I know it's the same in a lot of countries. The court cases take forever. The time, by the time the guy gets charged, he's. It's two years later. He's often out on bail, he's often committed other poaching incidences in the meantime.

[Robbie]

It's almost like South Africa, all these governments and it wouldn't take much. You just have to identify a judge.

[Cullen Kelly]

Or something that is like, that's the.

[Sean Kelly]

Rhino judge that they go to.

[Robbie]

Like there's a rhino court.

[Braxton]

Yeah, right.

[Robbie]

That this guy has. He's been allocated like, hey, a portion of your time on a weekly basis. 10 hours of your time is going to be dedicated to rhino cases. That's it. You're the man. And literally every rhino poacher that gets caught goes to him. Goes to him. And it happens quick.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, it would, that would be the ideal world. Yeah, would be ideal. But yeah, it's. I don't know. It's a good question. How do we get ahead of them? We obviously try all the time. You know, obviously the technology is a massive thing, but, but they also have technology. I mean, if they've, if they've got enough money to pay a guy 50,000 rand for information, you know, they've got, like I was saying to you earlier, they've got. These guys use drones now themselves. So, yeah, I mean, it is a challenge. I mean the, the, the big topic is obviously the, the legalizing the trade and the rhino horn, which I think would, would drastically bring it down.

[Robbie]

You think it would reduce poaching?

[Sean Kelly]

I think so, yeah. I mean it would flood the market for sure. I mean, if you, as you know, the stockpile between the private and government sectors just in South Africa alone is unbelievable.

[Robbie]

It's almost like what we were talking about, the rhinomics guys creating almost sounds like, again, I haven't spoken to them. Did you speak to them or.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, both of us have spoken to them.

[Robbie]

Yeah, it's almost like they're creating a legal exchange. Right. It's like an exchange for rhino horn. So if Somebody in the east is looking for rhino horn. Instead of having to go through these illegal routes and not sure if you're going to get your rhino horn or not get your rhino horn or you don't know what the state of your rhino horn is going to be. Is it a full horn? It a, is it a disc?

[Sean Kelly]

Is it whatever?

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

These guys seem to be trying to or willing to set up a legal exchange by which that individual in the east can come in and go. That's what I want.

[Sean Kelly]

I want that one. Yeah, yeah. So, so that's what they're doing. They're buying up as much Reinhorn as possible and speculating that hopefully the trade is going to open in a couple years time. So.

[Robbie]

And that's what they said to you? They said that they were going to be a broker. Do you know?

[Sean Kelly]

So, yeah, they basically, they are buying up as much rhino horn as possible. And they are. His mission is to open the trade and run.

[Robbie]

And what are they paying for rhino horn right now? So how are they valuating it?

[Sean Kelly]

So in South Africa you can trade.

[Robbie]

You can buy in South Africa?

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, I can sell to someone else in South Africa and they're paying 10,000 rand a kg. From a, from South African to South African, that's nothing. Nothing.

[Robbie]

Yeah, but if, if, if rhino horn was legal to be traded, what would that number be?

[Sean Kelly]

I don't know. I mean you have the numbers of 70 to $80,000 per kilogram. And now they're offering 10,000 rand. I mean, what's that in dollars? What it's like 400, 300, 350 bucks. $350.

[Robbie]

Shit.

[Sean Kelly]

So it's a drastic difference. So it would be interesting. It'll be interesting to.

[Robbie]

You think that's what these Rhinomics guys are doing is that they're, they're hedging their bets. I'm buying it at 10,000 rand. Hopefully legalization occurs and I'm selling it then at a hundred thousand rand.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, I mean even if he sells it at 20,000, if he's got that much, I mean, he's making a killing.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Sean Kelly]

But yeah, that'll be, that'll be interesting to, to see how that one plays out.

[Robbie]

So what do you think the future is here for you guys? Keep doing what you're doing. Is it? It obviously seems to be working.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, I think, you know, now that, you know, we took over in February last year, so it's been.

[Robbie]

Yeah, but, but you've been here for 30 years.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, we've been in the area for 30 years. But I'm talking this property, property specific. So, you know, you've never hunted this.

[Robbie]

Property before last year?

[Sean Kelly]

No, we did. We hunted, yeah. But we never had control of the running of the. Is controlled by someone else.

[Robbie]

Okay.

[Sean Kelly]

So, yeah, our, our aim is we all young guys that are involved here and we in it for the long run. And we want to make this post one of the most amazing reserves. So we're here to protect our rhino. We're here to protect all the other game and to look after the property, work well with the community and hopefully it plays out. But, yeah, we're not here for the short term and we feel that we can get. Get that done.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

And it seems like everybody in the community, all the reserves around you are on the same page 100.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, we kind of feel that this area is a bit forgotten and untouched and it's. And it's a. I don't think anybody.

[Robbie]

Knows about this even in South Africa.

[Sean Kelly]

No, they don't. And it's. And it's magnificent. As you've seen, the terrain is beautiful. The amount of game and it's for South Africa. It's very special for, from, for us because it's still got that wild side.

[Robbie]

Yeah, you've got a huge line population. Yeah, huge. All the, all the reserves we talked about that have rhino have line.

[Sean Kelly]

Lots of line.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Sean Kelly]

Too too many lines and too many elephants. So, yeah, it's, it's a, it really is a thriving area.

[Robbie]

Maybe too many rhinos.

[Sean Kelly]

I don't know about that.

[Robbie]

Man. It's awesome. No, it's cool. We just need this rain to lift and these clouds to go away and at least we've got. We got a bunch of time. Yeah. So that's. I'm sure it'll. It'll clear up and do what it needs to do.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Sean Kelly]

But we are. Got a couple exciting days ahead of us, so. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

[Robbie]

Well, I appreciate you, Cullen, I really do. And thank you for the invitation. Thank you for hosting us.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, thank you.

[Robbie]

And yeah, I'm sure we'll put together a. I'm looking forward to what we can put together specifically about your family and your legacy and the conservation work that you guys have done here. But obviously then the much broader piece that we're also working on at the same time, which is this big rhino documentary and really just outlining some of these issues that are happening all around rhinos.

[Sean Kelly]

Yeah, I know for sure. It's great having you guys here. Thanks very much, Robbie.

[Robbie]

You're welcome. Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening. As always, leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.

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