Episode 582 - Marco Pani || Elephant Management In Zimbabwe

Summary

The Origins Foundation Podcast: Episode 582 - Marco Pani || Elephant Management In Zimbabwe

Release Date: August 7, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 582 of The Origins Foundation Podcast, host Mike Axelrod welcomes Marco Pani, the Director of Conservation Programming for Conservation Force, a prominent non-profit organization dedicated to wildlife conservation. The episode delves deep into the complexities of elephant management in Zimbabwe, exploring the interplay between conservation policies, hunting regulations, and community engagement.

1. Marco Pani and Conservation Force

Marco Pani introduces himself and outlines the multifaceted role of Conservation Force. Established in the United States as a 501(c)(3) organization, Conservation Force has been instrumental for over three decades in facilitating the import and export of trophies, collaborating with state governments on management plans, and investing in diverse conservation projects globally.

“Conservation Force is a program of ucn. This [is] the Trade Record Analysis of Wild Fauna and Flora Commerce, and is the Monitoring Wildlife Trade Monitoring Program.” [05:10]

2. Early Career and Involvement with CITES

Pani shares his extensive background, beginning in the late 1980s with TRAFFIC, the wildlife trade monitoring program under CITES (Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora). From 1988 to 1994, he played a pivotal role in drafting Italy's SATIS legislation, which led to the implementation of seven decrees enhancing wildlife trade regulations.

“I drafted the SATIS legislation of Italy. The law brought to parliament approved seven implementation decrees for Italy's procedure.” [05:22]

3. IUCN Red List Reclassification and Its Implications

A significant portion of the discussion centers on the 2022 reclassification of African elephants in the IUCN Red List. Marco critiques the methodology employed, highlighting that savannah elephants were classified as both endangered and vulnerable, a decision influenced by political and non-transparent processes within the IUCN.

“They reclassified, reassess the elephants in the IUCN Red List, and they split them into two species. Savannah and forest. And they put the savannah elephant as endangered and the forest elephant as critically endangered.” [30:16]

Pani emphasizes the flaws in this assessment, noting that new surveys indicating a larger elephant population were disregarded, maintaining restrictive classifications that hinder conservation efforts.

“There was a new surveying that showed that there were not few thousand elephants, but 50,000 elephants in the bone. I use CITES, not move a finger to update, change the classification.” [35:27]

4. Impact of Ivory Trade Ban on Southern Africa

The ban on ivory trade in 1989 had profound consequences for southern African countries reliant on ivory revenues for conservation. Marco explains how the cessation of ivory trade led to financial strain, undermining anti-poaching efforts and accelerating rhino population declines in Zimbabwe and Zambia.

“Ivory trade was the main funding available for conservation. And then the crocodile skins, rhinoceroses, ostriches and the like were invented in southern Africa.” [13:12]

5. Conservation Efforts and Management Plans in Zimbabwe

In response to dwindling elephant populations and increased poaching, Marco details Conservation Force's initiatives in Zimbabwe starting in 2014. These efforts included organizing workshops and facilitating the creation of comprehensive elephant management plans across various regions.

“In September, October 2014, we started everything with a CAMPFIRE workshop. The objective was to prepare the National Elephant Management Plan.” [49:46]

Pani highlights the success achieved by implementing these management plans, noting substantial increases in elephant populations in regions like northwest Matabeleland and stabilization efforts in areas like Cebungwe.

“Northwest Matabeleland has reached in excess of 60,000 elephants from 50,000 in 2014.” [43:34]

6. Challenges in Elephant Management and Human-Elephant Conflict

Despite positive trends, human-elephant conflict remains a significant challenge. Increasing human populations and habitat encroachment limit the available space for elephants, particularly in East Africa. Marco underscores the delicate balance between maintaining viable elephant populations and preserving their habitats amidst growing human settlements.

“The dilemma is this, how to maintain a viable elephant population and to maintain habitat at the same time.” [46:07]

7. The Role of Hunting in Conservation and Habitat Preservation

Marco presents a compelling argument for the role of regulated hunting in conservation. He reveals that hunting concessions cover over 1.2 million square kilometers in SADC countries, double the area designated as protected. According to Pani, hunting revenues are crucial for habitat conservation, surpassing the financial contributions from national parks and photo tourism.

“The main activity which is conserving habitat is hunting. We discovered that in selected SADC countries, we have more than 1 million square kilometers of hunting concessions compared to 600,000 square kilometers of protected area.” [46:07]

He advocates for recognizing hunting as a responsible conservation tool, emphasizing that honest hunters and organizations strive to maximize positive impacts while minimizing negative ones.

“The honest hunters and the honest organization are always trying to isolate these cases. And I would say there are less and less in the last decade.” [48:08]

8. Recent Developments and Future Plans

Looking ahead, Marco expresses optimism about recent improvements in the Fish and Wildlife Service's approach to conservation science. He anticipates that enhanced management practices will pave the way for renewed conservation efforts and policy adjustments, aiming to shift the focus from endangered species to preserving entire ecosystems.

“Our mantra is how we can conserve spaces because if we have spaces, we have species. Without spaces, we have no species.” [63:25]

Pani envisions a future where space conservation, alongside community coexistence, becomes the cornerstone of wildlife management, ensuring sustainable habitats for elephants and other species.

Conclusion

Episode 582 provides an in-depth exploration of elephant management in Zimbabwe, highlighting the intricate relationship between international regulations, on-the-ground conservation efforts, and the role of hunting in preserving wildlife habitats. Marco Pani's insights underscore the importance of transparent, science-based policies and the need for collaborative approaches to ensure the long-term survival of African elephants.

“If we have spaces, we have species. Without spaces, we have no species.” [63:25]

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Notable Quotes

• “Conservation Force is a program of ucn. This [is] the Trade Record Analysis of Wild Fauna and Flora Commerce, and is the Monitoring Wildlife Trade Monitoring Program.” — Marco Pani [05:10]

• “They reclassified, reassess the elephants in the IUCN Red List, and they split them into two species. Savannah and forest. And they put the savannah elephant as endangered and the forest elephant as critically endangered.” — Marco Pani [30:16]

• “The honest hunters and the honest organization are always trying to isolate these cases. And I would say there are less and less in the last decade.” — Marco Pani [48:08]

• “Our mantra is how we can conserve spaces because if we have spaces, we have species. Without spaces, we have no species.” — Marco Pani [63:25]

Timestamp Highlights

• 05:10 – Marco discusses his role and early work with CITES and TRAFFIC.

• 30:16 – Reclassification of elephants in the IUCN Red List.

• 35:27 – Discrepancies in elephant population data and IUCN's response.

• 46:07 – The balance between elephant population growth and habitat preservation.

• 48:08 – The importance of hunting in conservation funding.

• 63:25 – Future vision focusing on space conservation.

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Final Thoughts

This episode sheds light on the critical issues surrounding elephant conservation in Zimbabwe, the impact of international policies, and the essential role of various stakeholders in ensuring the sustainability of these majestic creatures. Marco Pani's expertise provides listeners with a nuanced understanding of the challenges and triumphs in wildlife management, advocating for informed and collaborative efforts to protect endangered species and their habitats.

Transcript

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[Robbie]

Marco Pani is the Director of Conservation Programming for Conservation Force. Conservation force is a 501C3 here in the United States that has worked significantly behind the scenes for honestly for the last three decades in terms of just lots of different things helping with the import export of trophies. They help on a state government level from management plan perspective, a non detrimental finding perspective enhancement findings perspective. They have invested significantly in conservation projects honestly in places in the world that you would never think a hunter would be investing in. And so I've been trying to get Marco on the podcast for honestly about two years and we finally caught up face to face in Dallas and had a phenomenal conversation about the work that Conservation Force has done literally over the last 10 years in Zimbabwe specifically around elephants. And so I wanted to have this podcast. Marco is just a phenomenal wealth of information when it comes to.

[Marco Pani]

Wildlife management.

[Robbie]

And specifically elephants in Zimbabwe.

[Mike Axelrod]

So enjoy.

[Robbie]

So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting.

[Mike Axelrod]

It brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals. How do I start it?

[Robbie]

Brittany My name?

[Mike Axelrod]

Does my hair look okay? My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again.

[Braxton]

Yeah, I hated it too.

[Mike Axelrod]

Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten Wild Game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter. Marco Pine, your first podcast ever. I am so honored that you finally. How long has it taken me for me to do this?

[Marco Pani]

Couple of years.

[Mike Axelrod]

You've been dodging me.

[Marco Pani]

No, I've been busy working. Not like you.

[Mike Axelrod]

Listen, this is the funniest thing, because every time I ask you, hey, can we do this? I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm too busy. But then, this is what drives me insane about you, okay? Me being honest with you, you being honest with me. We have this relationship. I'm too busy. I can't work on it right now. And five seconds later, I see you whatsapping on groups. I'm like, he can't be that busy if he's whatsapping on groups.

[Marco Pani]

This is called multitasking, my friend.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, my God, you're so funny, dude. You're so funny. Marco Polcome to the Blood Origins podcast. I am honored to have you. You are. Your knowledge of wildlife conservation is immeasurable. And I say that with all humility.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

I don't think you know half the things that you know. Okay, give me just a brief background of you. You worked for CITES at one point, right?

[Marco Pani]

Well, I started in late 80s for traffic and I used to.

[Mike Axelrod]

And what is traffic?

[Marco Pani]

Traffic is a program of ucn. This the Trade Record Analysis of Wild Phone and Flora and Commerce, and is the Monitoring Wildlife Trade Monitoring Program.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

How long did you work for Traffic?

[Marco Pani]

I worked from 88 to 94.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

And in these six years, I drafted the SATIS legislation of Italy.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

The law brought to parliament approved seven implementation decrees for Italy's procedure. For Italy. For the government of Italy.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And then from after that, in 94.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

I went to the Saudi Secretariat.

[Mike Axelrod]

And you worked there till 2014?

[Marco Pani]

No, 10. 97.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

Soon after, let's say beginning of 98, soon after the 10th meeting of the Conference of the Parties in Harare. I was in that conference with the Cite Secretariat. And that was the conference when the elephants were. Some population were downlisted to Appendix 2. And it was an incredible thing to.

[Mike Axelrod]

See because it was banned in 1970.

[Marco Pani]

At the COP.

[Mike Axelrod]

But the trade of ivory was banned in 74, wasn't it? 75.

[Marco Pani]

No, no. The trade of ivory was subject to a quota system until 1989.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

And then at the Conference of the parties in Lausanne, COP7 in 1989, the population were transferred, all of them in Appendix 1, and it was the start of the cite's current situation whereby they made no distinctions between countries which were doing well and doing well in countries which were doing completely wrong.

[Mike Axelrod]

Right?

[Robbie]

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[Marco Pani]

They want to help you.

[Robbie]

The conservation and research community is dominated by good people doing good things and investing significant time and effort for the benefit of habitat and the species. So what do you need to do? Pretty simple. Send us your conservation story and or your conservation wish. Could be managing whitetails, could be understanding your environment or species or something else related to conservation. What would you be able to do if you had a great trail camera setup? We will select the best story every other month and send you a camera bundle. Cell camera, normal SD camera, SD cards as well as optics. Everything you need to get set up for success. I can't wait to see what you submit. You can email [e-mail], dM US. Message us whatever you want. We are not hard to find. Good luck.

[Marco Pani]

And interestingly there are. There is evidence some that these. The fact that the average trade was banned in that year. It was.

[Mike Axelrod]

So IB trade was effectively banned in 1989.

[Marco Pani]

89, yeah.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

By the conference of the parties Society. So all the countries in the world.

[Marco Pani]

That are cannot trade ivory anymore.

[Mike Axelrod]

The U.S. do you remember what the vote was?

[Marco Pani]

Not really.

[Mike Axelrod]

Was it like what you would see today, the African countries saying no to the trade and the people that have no elephants saying yes to the trade.

[Marco Pani]

No, it was a little bit different at the time. But it was maybe the first conference where the lobby of the animal, animal rights, let's say organization was very, very strong. What I was saying is that there is something important. Most of the countries, Southern Africa, namely Zimbabwe, all the conservation activities were paid through the trade in ivory. When ivory was banned in 1989.

[Mike Axelrod]

The.

[Marco Pani]

Rhino population of Zimbabwe became to be under siege because the country doesn't have any more the resources to protect the rhinos.

[Braxton]

True.

[Marco Pani]

And so the poaching start wiping out the rhinos from the Zambezi Valley. And then when Jim Parks at the time and a group of volunteers start this crazy operation Rhino capturing all the rhinos they can to transfer them into conservancies, mainly booby and seve. And this is a direct result of the ivory trade ban, which has completely destroyed the revenues, the management revenues and then the income of these countries for consumption.

[Mike Axelrod]

Not just Zimbabwe.

[Marco Pani]

Right. Not just in power, but like.

[Braxton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

All of these countries that used to be able to trade.

[Marco Pani]

Absolutely. In Zambia there are species went extinct immediately. Immediately wipe out from the Luanga Valley and other places. Wipe out? Yeah, the rhino. I mean the black rhino. So there was a system Set up in southern Africa, whereby ivory trade, although not perfect, but was the main funding available for conservation. And then the crocodile skins wrenching was invented in southern Africa. Ostriches and the like.

[Mike Axelrod]

Fertilization of wildlife.

[Marco Pani]

Exactly this. And southern Africa has been the leader in that since the 70s. And this is. So the biggest hurdle that they found was clearly cites. And I work for the citizen.

[Mike Axelrod]

Did you know when you were working for CITES that CITES was a hurdle?

[Marco Pani]

I started realizing that this is early 90s, right? This is mid-90s, mid-90s. Yeah. I start realizing that.

[Mike Axelrod]

And we are now 20, 30 years. 30 years on. And you think. And the problem is the same.

[Marco Pani]

Absolutely. CITES is the only convention when people can talk about wildlife and they believe that putting the species in the citizens appendices will save the species. This is wrong. This is a trade regulation convention.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Because CITES doesn't put money into species, regulates the trade.

[Marco Pani]

But regulating the trade is not the most important aspect in wildlife conservation. Where is habitat conservation, which is the number one? Who is taking care of habitat in the UN conventions? Maybe only Ramsar with the wetlands. But wetlands are only a part of the ecosystems, not the complete ecosystem. So the most important issue, which is habitat conservation is completely ignored by science at large and by also the un because biodiversity is so vast. The biodiversity convention. And so. And it's important, very important. But it has no teeth, you know, it has no.

[Mike Axelrod]

Has no clause.

[Marco Pani]

Exactly, exactly. So at the end of the day, a trade regulatory system is becoming one of the most important convention for wildlife conservation. And this is already very strange.

[Braxton]

Is.

[Marco Pani]

Is absolutely outside common thinking about, outside logic and outside. And outside even reality. They say, oh, but we have the scientific basic. But the country doesn't have the capacity to do that. So the link between trade benefits to the people and habitat conservation, nobody has established that link. The best scenario would be that I can legally trade one species or whatever species, that these benefits are shared with the people living alongside that, with the main objective to conserve the habitat of these species. This would be the perfect league, man. Nobody of very few people are thinking this way.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know that Campfire was that thinking, right?

[Marco Pani]

In Zimbabwe, Campfire was an incredible thinking. Because Campfire was meant to conserve habitat outside protection of national park. Exactly, exactly. Because even the model of protected areas is falling apart.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know, protected areas are actually financially prudent.

[Marco Pani]

Financially, very few, very few. In Africa, very few. And habitat loss is enormous. And so Campfire was born exactly for this. How we can conserve wildlife outside protected areas and conserve at the same time. Their habitat and benefiting the people. In fact, the people that work behind Campfire were top brains. Martha Murphy, Rowan Martin and these are two of the best brains that conservation has ever had and a little bit also grandchild, the father of Brian. But the two main thinkers behind it were Roan Martin and Marsha Murphy.

[Mike Axelrod]

Mm.

[Marco Pani]

And if you read their papers, are still not fascinating but are still amazing, amazing thinking and still very much functional.

[Mike Axelrod]

In today's systems, maybe even more functional, 100%.

[Marco Pani]

But they want to go that way. I mean, on one side, few sectors, even part of the untaned sector, although supporting the community, has not realized the full potential for conservation or community based organization. On the other side, the governments are very scared or relinquish ownership to communities or proprietorship. And at the other level, science is not there. It's not realistic. He's still concentrating on species, how many lions, the density of leopards, the density of elephants and the like, instead of looking at the bigger picture in a holistic manner. And this is one of the biggest.

[Mike Axelrod]

But don't you think those numbers are indicators of the holistic picture? If you're doing well, lions are doing well, leopards are doing well. It's an indicator.

[Marco Pani]

Not they are not used as such. They are only used to say, oh, this piece is in declining and this and this with very, very poor data. And especially the old trick is to extrapolate the data from one area to apply everywhere.

[Braxton]

Sure.

[Marco Pani]

And this cannot work. And we are seeing this every single day. So I mean, but this is the bleak picture. But let's talk, but talk to me.

[Mike Axelrod]

I want to understand a little bit more from you in those early days. You're dealing with the regulatory side, you're dealing with the trade side. Do you get to a point where you are frustrated that you aren't able to change things? Is and I assume it's, you know, Conservation Force who you work for today. You've been working for him since 2014. Is that opportunity, that's what you were given? Like, hey, you're frustrated with the process. You're not. It's not helping anybody. Conservation Force is this organization that not many people know about. Did you see my, did you see my.

[Marco Pani]

Oh yeah, you have a good sticker.

[Mike Axelrod]

Conservation for sticker, letting the world know about you, but nobody really knows what you do because you guys do things behind the scenes to help implement this element, this link, this management of helping the people in countries be able to trade their animals again, export import from a hunting perspective.

[Marco Pani]

Not only that, but it Is we are doing much more.

[Mike Axelrod]

I know you're doing much more, but, you know, we're going to get into Zimbabwe and elephant management plans and whatnot. But it almost. I just want to get a frame of reference from you in your mind. It was an opportunity like, oh, shit, I can get there. I can be on the other side now. I can make a difference.

[Marco Pani]

Absolutely. I can tell you few things without quoting the country.

[Braxton]

We.

[Marco Pani]

We have raised twofold the benefits for communities in one country.

[Mike Axelrod]

Amazing.

[Marco Pani]

Twofold. From one regulation to the next one. We work on that with the government and the benefits were doubled.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

In another country, we are restructuring the conservation fund of that country. And this will. If we'll succeed, it will get amazing results for conservation in the country.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

So it's not only the import of trophies and all this, which is. And the needful documentation and technically and scientific documents. It's also. We contributed to CBR policies in a couple of countries.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, you do a lot. You do a lot of different things a lot of people don't know about.

[Marco Pani]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we are not doing this to.

[Mike Axelrod]

To dead horns. Exactly.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

We're doing this to make a change.

[Mike Axelrod]

Make a difference.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

That's the difference.

[Mike Axelrod]

So let's. I want to get in the rest of.

[Marco Pani]

So that's why. Sorry to interrupt.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, that's fine.

[Marco Pani]

You are an exception now because the fact that we are having a podcast with you is an exception to our normal behavior, let's say.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, my job is to try and change your behavior because you have so many good things that you do. And we even had this argument in the elevator coming up. I was like, you need to tell the story. Like, no, no, no, no, it's not. It's too early. And I was like, it's not too early.

[Marco Pani]

Let me judge you think myself, please.

[Mike Axelrod]

You can talk about things. You're allowed to. You're allowed to say, this is what we're doing. These are the successes. And even if it's at step one of. Step of 50 steps.

[Marco Pani]

Absolutely.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's okay.

[Marco Pani]

That's important. That's important. It's a given.

[Mike Axelrod]

And especially in this world of, you know, the world that I live in, and you live in it a lot, too. But, you know, my mission is to convey the truth and the narrative about what hunting and hunters are doing for people, wildlife and communities. That's my job.

[Marco Pani]

Well, I have to tell you a story, if I'm allowed to, of course. I'm coming from a family, from the side of my father of hunters. Since centuries. And my father was coming from Sardinia, which is an island in the middle of the Mediterranean. And his uncle was the owner of one of the most beautiful Mediterranean forests in the southern part of Sardinia, where the last Sardinian deer were living. And in 1924, he was the one that decided to stop the hunting of the Sardinians.

[Mike Axelrod]

As a hunter.

[Marco Pani]

As a hunter.

[Mike Axelrod]

And why did he make that decision?

[Marco Pani]

Because the population was declining. And so they decided, no, we have to stop that any protected this area. It was his own hunting estate. Then he saw that now is a national park.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

And he was there hunting wild board the traditional way, like the Spanish Monteria. And every time there was a deer, nobody was shooting the deer. Okay, so what happened? That in the 70s, the deer population plummeted to less than 200 individuals. In late 70, in middle 70s, the estate was sold. WWF stepped in in the 80s and the poaching was absolutely crazy with snares, mostly snare poaching. Why? The main reason for the poaching in Sardinia, Italy in the 70s and part of the 80 was unemployment, the economic crisis of the time. The people went without a job. So the only way they have to feed their family was to go in the bush, put snares and get wild boars and deers to sell to the restaurants. As soon as the economic situation grew, the poaching disappeared. Disappeared. Interesting.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

Now we have more than 10,000, 15,000 deers in Sardinia.

[Mike Axelrod]

Wow.

[Marco Pani]

Okay. And they are all over the place. There are even too many.

[Mike Axelrod]

And people are even start to have you hunter Sardinian.

[Marco Pani]

No. They're even asking, please reopen antique. It could be also economically, of course.

[Mike Axelrod]

This is what you should work on that as your next conservation force project.

[Marco Pani]

Yeah, but it's something maybe I'm doing okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, sorry. You belindestine.

[Marco Pani]

And so now put this situation in Africa is the same thing. Poverty. Yeah, poverty, poverty. And again, poverty is the driver of wildlife decline.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

And the people, if they don't have anything to eat, they are going poaching.

[Mike Axelrod]

And you can't fault anybody for.

[Marco Pani]

Absolutely.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

I will not condone poaching. But people living with less than $1 a day is. He needs to have a veteran and.

[Mike Axelrod]

You have to feed your family.

[Marco Pani]

Exactly.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

And this again is not recognized. I mean, everybody is talking big convention, the United nations, everyone. Poverty reduction, poverty redirection. But the small contribution that hunting is giving to that no other activity is giving the same level of contribution. The national parks, photo tourism. Give me a break. And so if we do not resolve the problem from the. From the basis, which is the poverty. It's always going in circles around. Around something that we don't want to touch. The real core issue now. Sorry for the intermission.

[Mike Axelrod]

No, no, no. I love that story and I love the fact that you're, quote, unquote, not working on the opening the Sardinian deer population. Marco. 2014. Let's just talk. 2014.

[Marco Pani]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, let me just start. Let's put some context to elephants today, and then we'll back up into 2014 today. Let's just talk some general specifics. African elephants, endangered or not endangered?

[Marco Pani]

Not at all. To the southern Africa savannah elephants.

[Mike Axelrod]

What are the. In terms of cites?

[Marco Pani]

No, in terms of iucn.

[Mike Axelrod]

Iucn. What are they? What are they classified as? Iucn.

[Marco Pani]

Now, this is interesting, because I think it was around 20, 22 or 23, the IUCN came up with a new classification. They reassess the Red List for elephants.

[Mike Axelrod]

Move your cord away from your.

[Braxton]

There we go.

[Marco Pani]

Perfect, Perfect. Okay, you're good.

[Braxton]

Yep.

[Marco Pani]

They reclassified, reassess the elephants in the IUCN Red List, and they split them in two species.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

Savannah and forest.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

And they put the savannah elephant as endangered and the forest elephant as critically endangered. This was done with a methodology which was on the limit of the IUCN criteria, because they analyzed, survey by survey, the density level and not the decline on three generations. They even jumped a generation, saying that from 1940 to 1965, there were no changes, which was very wrong.

[Mike Axelrod]

And so just for everybody's edification, the determination of whether you're endangered or not is tied to three generations of population.

[Marco Pani]

Dynamics or population change, one of the main criteria. There are several others.

[Mike Axelrod]

And what are they using for elephants.

[Marco Pani]

In terms of that 25 years is a one generation.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

Very similar to you, to us, human.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

So at that point, a group of people petition.

[Mike Axelrod]

The.

[Marco Pani]

Rare list assessment is something which is happening very seldom in iucn. So the challenge, the assessment. And they discovered that this procedure is one of the most awkward and untransparent procedure existing around. In a nutshell, there is a petition committee that you should not even know the composition. The chairman is. It's a secret.

[Mike Axelrod]

It's clandestine.

[Marco Pani]

Clandestine. Untransparent. Completely untransparent. Then there is the first thing is a one, two pager letter motivating why you are petitioning the assessors, which are people. Now, the new lead assessor of the IUCN Red Listing is working for Defenders of Wildlife. Interesting, but not biased. No, no, no, no.

[Braxton]

Not biased.

[Marco Pani]

And so they responded to that after that you have to try to reach a consensus, Zoom meeting or whatever. Meetings, no consensus. So now you arrive to an eight pager document and in this eight pager, both side, the petitioners and the assessor put their story why they think that the assessment is wrong and the other defending their assessment. Then you can complement this with a one pager, an additional one pager.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

And after a time that is about two years, one year and a half, you arrive to the petition committee and the petition committee ruling is you cannot appeal.

[Braxton]

Wow.

[Marco Pani]

Crazy. How transparent is that? And this is a UCM and you.

[Mike Axelrod]

Don'T know who's on the, on the committee.

[Marco Pani]

No. And you cannot appeal it. Science.

[Mike Axelrod]

And how does that science, how does the petition decision come to you? In a letter.

[Braxton]

Yeah. Okay.

[Marco Pani]

And it's published.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

Also on the website. Science is made be challenged.

[Braxton]

Yep, exactly.

[Marco Pani]

And the more you challenge, the better it becomes. The better it becomes.

[Mike Axelrod]

Correct.

[Marco Pani]

So where is the science in this IUCN process? But even more, this cuckoo clan, as I call it, of iucn, the petition committee, the mans with the OUD, decided that with very wrong assumptions, very wrong, that also a threatened status, a vulnerable status, sorry, can apply. So they say, oh, savannah elephants are endangered, but they're also vulnerable.

[Mike Axelrod]

So they were classified in two categories.

[Marco Pani]

Yeah. And they published this in font six on there, you see in the red.

[Mike Axelrod]

List, font six that it was vulnerable as well.

[Braxton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marco Pani]

And so this now nobody has even read it or look to it. So everybody believes that a UCN is still classifying the species as endangered, but.

[Mike Axelrod]

You'Re saying they're classified as both endangered and vulnerable.

[Marco Pani]

Exactly. This was one of the results of the petition committee, the Kukus Klan of AUC.

[Mike Axelrod]

This was in 2322, 2323 and it's still standing today.

[Marco Pani]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

So they classified both as endangered and vulnerable.

[Marco Pani]

No, the speed. The savannah elephant. The savannah elephant, the other elephant is critically endangered.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

After this was published, this assessment was published, there was a new surveying a bone that showed that there were not few thousand elephants, but 50,000 elephants in the bone. I use CNS, not move a finger to update, change the classification. So this is some of the political science happening in respect to elephants.

[Mike Axelrod]

And two more political components to elephant societies. Is elephants still. Savannah elephants are still appendix one or appendix two.

[Marco Pani]

Oncites three, four populations are in appendix two.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

South Africa, Botswana, Namibia and Zimbabwe.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

And the rest is an appendix one.

[Mike Axelrod]

Tanzania still appendix one.

[Marco Pani]

Absolute.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

Namibia still appendix one, Appendix two, Appendix.

[Marco Pani]

Two, Namibia, Zimbabwe, Botswana, South Africa, Mozambique.

[Mike Axelrod]

Tanzania, Zambia, what's another country that you can hunt elephants in? Those are three of the only two.

[Braxton]

Right? Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

You can't hunt elephants in Mozambique, right now, can you?

[Marco Pani]

You can, but they are not important, not affordable. Nor in the us, nor in the eu.

[Braxton]

Right, Right. Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

I want your opinion on this because I've been thinking a lot about it. I've been thinking about general elephant population currently as it stands today. I think we're over half a million elephants in total.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

I also believe that. I think we're over carrying capacity of what we can currently handle in a habitat perspective in the southern and African and eastern African perspective for elephants. What do you think?

[Marco Pani]

Not really.

[Mike Axelrod]

How many more elephants do you think we could have?

[Marco Pani]

Not really. So East Africa is a complete different thing. It's not a dry country. A dry landscape like southern Africa, where, where elephants are living mostly the biggest part of the population is living in Kalahari landscape. Northern Botswana and west Zimbabwe, northwest Zimbabwe, the rainfall is extremely limited. In East Africa, the situation is different. What is limiting elephant is space.

[Braxton]

Yep.

[Marco Pani]

Is nothing else but space.

[Mike Axelrod]

Correct. 100%.

[Marco Pani]

And human encroachment.

[Mike Axelrod]

And human density, which is correlated to space.

[Marco Pani]

Absolutely. And to encroachment. And so we have had a very important study since Enviaud, where the density, human density is above 10 people, 15 people per square kilometers. Elephants cannot stay there. On the other end, in that dry landscape, a density above 0.3, 0.5 elephants per square kilometers is already damaging the vegetation. If you go to same to East Africa, this is not the case. So this is limited to a particular landscape which is the dry savannahs of northern Botswana, western Zimbabwe and northwestern Zimbabwe, and clearly probably also some parts of Namibia. If you go now there, because as you are aware, we have facilitated and assisted both Botswana and Zimbabwe to do their management plans and their NDFs and a lot of other documents. If you now put the resulting numbers on northern Botswana and northwestern Matabeleland alone, without the other countries, you are at about 200,000 elephants right now. Aerial service with surveillance recognizance techniques, fixed aerial wing survey have underestimated a threshold between 20 and 30%. So if you take 200,000, it could be easily 260,000 Earths. Having seen that there are areas where the densities have completely wiped out the vegetation. Look at the Chobe riverfront. I don't know if you know it.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

Look at certain areas in Matabeleland and the like. In other areas, the human population is encroaching the space so heavily that the elephants Are retreating from this area. But in Zimbabwe, for example, there is a very, very important example of the Cebungwe area. The Cebungwe is still part of Casa, but it's not part of northwestern Matabaland. It's the area just south of the Caribbean.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

Which includes protected areas.

[Mike Axelrod]

Famous is that Matusa Dona.

[Marco Pani]

Matusa Dona, yes.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

And the like this area was built. The estimate population in the 2000. Around 2000 was about 15,000 elephants. In 2014, the year when we started the new management plan there, there were slightly more than 3,000 elephants. The population crashed. Why? Because the area was. With the land reform of Zimbabwe, people were moving to the area and cotton fields to grow cotton. But the terrain was absolutely terrible for cotton. Terrible for cotton. So the people remained there reaching incredible densities to the detriment of the elephants. And this is one area which helped its decline. Now, interestingly, you know, we funded we assistants in bawing for the third time in doing their new elephant management plan this year. Last June we had the workshop. Now the plan is in the making, is being drafted.

[Robbie]

And this is a 10 year.

[Marco Pani]

This is not elephant.

[Mike Axelrod]

This is the first 10 year elephant management plan developed.

[Marco Pani]

No, we did one for tanzania out.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

10 years. 10 years is the new trend in conservation planning.

[Braxton]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Marco Pani]

Because five years is too short.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

So we saw the surveys in this area, the Cebungwe, and we saw that the population stabilized. So this is a success. Although the area is having only 3,000, let's say 4,000 elephants is a success of Zimbabwe because it means that the measures, the management measures indicated by the management plan were correct. So overall we have two growing populations in the country. Northwest Matabeth, which has reached in excess of 60,000 elephants from 50,000 in 2014. In 10 years we have more than 12,000 elephants in excess. And then the southeast low belt, which is Gunnarrizu and the like.

[Braxton]

Yeah, yeah.

[Marco Pani]

The Cebungwe stabilized as well. The Zambezi Valley is fluctuating a bit. But the Zambezi Valley is a very peculiar case because it's a shared population. It's not that Zimbabwean.

[Braxton]

Yeah, sure.

[Marco Pani]

Is shared between Zambia, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Mozambique.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

And the elephants migrated to the reed beds of the Zambezi in Mozambique even before the Cabora Bass dam was built. Since immemorial times.

[Braxton]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Marco Pani]

And on that side, the elephant population has been armored in Mozambique.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

From a poaching perspective, for a lottery. So do you think, going back to my original question, you think that there's still. You think my hypothesis with 500,000 elephants is I don't think that we have more. Enough. We don't have enough space for more elephants. You think there's. There's more space available, maybe in Tanzania for more elephants, but I don't know.

[Marco Pani]

Yeah. The Tanzania elephant population is growing.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

Is going considerably.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

But together with the growing of the population, there is an exponential growth of the human elephant conflict.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, exactly. That's right. That's what I'm saying.

[Marco Pani]

I think human population is not declining.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

On the contrary, growing too much. So the dilemma is this, how to maintain a viable elephant population and to maintain habitat at the same time. Because we cannot concentrate on the wildlife only if we do not spend the same amount of efforts in maintaining wildlife. Currently, the main activity which is conserving habitat is hunting. We published some data a few years ago, researching a lot after the famous linsday paper of 2007, and we discovered that in selected SADC countries, we have more than 1 million square kilometers of hunting concessions. 1,200,000 square kilometers of hunting concession compared to 600,000 square kilometers of protected area. Protected area.

[Mike Axelrod]

So double the area.

[Marco Pani]

Yeah. In some countries, even single countries, is even tripled, but on average it's double. Now, it is logic to think that the battle, the fight should be to conserve this habitat and not to fight the goose that is laying the golden eggs, which is hunting. So this is the responsible behavior. I'm not saying that there are no black sheeps in the hunting sector. They are in every sector.

[Braxton]

Sure.

[Marco Pani]

But the honest hunters and the honest organization is always trying that. They are always trying to isolate these cases. And I would say there are less and less in the last decade there. Absolutely, absolutely less. But the main question remains, what is the plan to conserve this 1,200,000 square kilometers.

[Mike Axelrod]

So is that. Do you think that going back to 2014, when you first went into Zimbabwe. You went into Zimbabwe in 2014 specifically because fish and Wildlife Service, for some unknown reason, said no more elephants to be imported into the United States from Zimbabwe.

[Marco Pani]

This was a very uninformed decision. They twisted the data. They misinterpret the data of the populations. In 2014, Zimbabwe did another survey that demonstrated that the data that Fish and Wildlife Service was putting on the table was wrong.

[Braxton]

Right.

[Marco Pani]

And then this started. I mean, this was an epic period because in September, October 2014, we started everything with a campfire. And the objective of the workshop was to prepare the National Elephant Management Plan. Workshop. So the.

[Mike Axelrod]

Did Zimbabwe have an Elephant Management Plan at the time?

[Marco Pani]

Yes.

[Braxton]

Okay. Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

It was done in 1997. And although fish and Wildlife Service said that it was not working, the reality.

[Mike Axelrod]

They said it wasn't working because they had data that showed that the elephant population was declining, which was wrong.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

That's the main reason that shows that the elephant management plan was correct, was working because the elephant population has grown since 97. If there was no management plan, for what kind of miracle the elephant population would have grown so soon. So. And Zimbabwe has always maintained that the elephant management plan was. Was there and working. And we have the tendency not to criticize the governments, but. And it was the reality because the numbers showed them. They were.

[Mike Axelrod]

They were right.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

So at a certain point, we started this because of this. In April 2014, Fish and Wildlife Service decided this to suspend the trade of elephant trophies from Zimbabwe and Tanzania. We started with a campfire workshop, which still contains amazing recommendations. And the campfire workshop informed the national workshop on the new management plan that was done in Wange in December 2014.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

Then in 2015, we also funded and organized, facilitated four other worship, one for each of the four regions of elephants in Silba. So there was one for northwest Matabeleland, one for the Sebungwe, one for the Zambezi Valley, and one for the southeastern wealth. And there was a big collaboration on the anti sector. And the positive thing of this exercise, that this started a big momentum again in Zimbabwe for conservation.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

There was some momentum in the country. Everybody say, oh, the elephant management plan, we need to do this and that. I mean, this was one of the best positive side, not only to have a management plan, but for the momentum created for conservation in the country. So this was approved in 20. Late 2015.

[Mike Axelrod]

Okay, what was this that was approved? The management plan, the new management plan.

[Marco Pani]

For including the four regional plans.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Mike Axelrod]

Four under plans, under the national plan.

[Marco Pani]

National plan, and four regional action plans.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

Management plan, national action plan and four regional action plans. And apart from the awful cost of this exercise, but this is another thing. The plan was then approved in late 2015. And there was a request from Fish and Wildlife Service to have also a priority and budget document also that was produced by Zimbabwe and an intense.

[Mike Axelrod]

For what reason? So that the Fish and Wildlife Service was going to fund conservation projects in Warimbabu.

[Marco Pani]

No. How much? What are the priorities of this plan and how much Zimbabwe was investing a country which. Whose resources are limited. Very limited. But this was the thinking of that administration at the time, you know. And so in November 2017, Zimbabwe got a positive enhancement finding finally from the.

[Mike Axelrod]

US Fish and Wildlife Service after three years.

[Marco Pani]

And what does that mean?

[Mike Axelrod]

What does that mean?

[Marco Pani]

At that time, there were countrywide enhancement findings for the species country. Okay. So the Fish and Wallet Service turned the suspension into a positive.

[Mike Axelrod]

So up until that point. So 2014 they banned the suspended.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Mike Axelrod]

And in 2017, they approved a positive enhancement finding.

[Marco Pani]

Enhancement finding de facto reopen in theory. Okay, what happened? It happened that first of all, in 2014, an hunting organization sued Fish and Wildlife Service contrary to our advice and Exactly. In the time, the judge decided that all the enhancement findings should be withdrawn by Fish and Wildlife Service, but the findings should be on a case by case by basis, area by area. So the work for three years, not.

[Mike Axelrod]

An individual, not a nationwide, but area level.

[Marco Pani]

And this because of the court cases started by another hunting club.

[Braxton]

Yeah, gotcha.

[Marco Pani]

We are not a hunting club.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

We are a foundation of technical experts.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

And so the case by case basis started withdrawing. Deleting the Fufu Wallet Service was forced by the court decision to withdraw all enhanced spend findings.

[Mike Axelrod]

This is from 2014. This is in 2014.

[Marco Pani]

Now 2017.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, in 2017.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

At the same time.

[Mike Axelrod]

So all of that work that you've done from 2014 to 2017, all the regional workshops, the national plan. The national action plan. The regional action plan.

[Marco Pani]

Because of the court of the court case initiated by that hunting trap. But not only that. At the meeting where Fusion Wireless Service was saying, we are going to publish this enhancement finding in three days next week. And we were saying, please keep it under the wraps because it can be taken. Someone decided to have a press release. This press release reached Washington when an animal rights organization picked the press release and went straight to President Trump. And President Trump with the famous tweets, put all the elephant in ports on old.

[Mike Axelrod]

I remember that.

[Marco Pani]

And this was resolved only because Dulles some hunters, some communities sue the government and they have to settle the case. And so the elephant imports started again.

[Mike Axelrod]

And are we still in that phase that other enhancements.

[Marco Pani]

In 2022. So other four years were gone.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

That's what without import of elephants.

[Mike Axelrod]

So 2022 was the court case was settled. Imports can start again. But it was still on a case by case, area by area basis, Right?

[Marco Pani]

Absolutely.

[Braxton]

Okay.

[Marco Pani]

Absolutely.

[Mike Axelrod]

And is that where we are still today?

[Marco Pani]

100.

[Mike Axelrod]

Is the plan with the new 10 year management plan to try and get back to where you were trying to get from 2014 to 2013.

[Marco Pani]

This is something that only the Fish and Wildlife Service can change.

[Mike Axelrod]

We can't petition the Fish and Wildlife Service to.

[Marco Pani]

Yeah, yeah, but they need rulemaking. And instead of putting rulemaking on this, they had done a rulemaking without even informing the African countries during the Conference of the Parties of Panama with this certification criteria for elephant imports.

[Mike Axelrod]

Oh, certification. And this is at the operator level now, right?

[Marco Pani]

No, the certification is at the government level.

[Mike Axelrod]

The government level.

[Marco Pani]

So out of the blue, again, Fish and Wireless Service convene a meeting during the conference of the Parties in Panama, which if I remember was around 2022, and say, okay, next week we will publish on the Federal Register a new regulation on African elephant with a new certification system. And the African countries will say, wait a minute, you cannot give us 30 days from today to. So they wrote, they request an extension. And they obtained this extension. And finally they made comments to the Fish and Wallet Service. And finally this regulation came up with 2024 was the first year. So today, every first year of May, if I'm not wrong, or first of April, sorry, I don't remember the exact date of each year. The country should certify to the Fisher Wildlife Service the certain criteria are met, that their elephant population is stable or growing and other criteria, including one which is a very encore criteria, that the habitat will not decline.

[Braxton]

What.

[Marco Pani]

Or something along this line.

[Mike Axelrod]

So they believe that an infinite growth of elephants is not going to affect the habitat, which is two of criteria that are going.

[Marco Pani]

They believe that the government has the powers to stop habitat destruction. Those. The U.S. government has the power to stop habitat's destruction in the U.S. but.

[Mike Axelrod]

The two criteria are in opposition of one another.

[Marco Pani]

Exactly.

[Braxton]

So.

[Marco Pani]

But this is still there. It has been taken lightly, but it's still there. So this is in a nutshell, Robbie, the situation.

[Mike Axelrod]

So today. Let me just, Let me. As we wrap this up, where do you see the future of elephant management? Let's just use Zimbabwe as an example because we've been focusing on Zimbabwe. You guys have now put forward a 10 year management plan. Do you see in the next five years, what do you see happening, if anything? Do you see any change at the Fish and Wildlife Service level?

[Marco Pani]

I. We saw changes for the good.

[Mike Axelrod]

You hope in the next five years you think you will see changes?

[Marco Pani]

We are already seeing changes.

[Mike Axelrod]

And what are those changes?

[Marco Pani]

The level of science in the last few years in Fish and Wildlife Service has improved substantially. And the level of management, applied science, and this is the most important thing. So it's not science for science, like sometimes it has been in the past that. But the Fisher Wallace Service now is Very keen to. To have an understanding of management practices in the countries of origin much more than previously. And this is in our point of view is extremely.

[Mike Axelrod]

Do you think. What do you think that will reflect as do you think that will reflect as a movement towards an enhancement finding again, countrywide.

[Marco Pani]

Oh, this is a way. We don't know that. This is a bold and brave decision to be taken.

[Mike Axelrod]

But did you say that that's a goal that you're aiming for?

[Marco Pani]

Not only. We are aiming for providing space and move the subject from endangered species to endangered spaces.

[Mike Axelrod]

That's a good one.

[Marco Pani]

This is our mantra that we would like to develop in the next years.

[Mike Axelrod]

I like that.

[Marco Pani]

How we can conserve spaces because if we have spaces, we have species. Without spaces, we have. Have no species.

[Braxton]

Yeah, well said. Is a.

[Marco Pani]

Is as simple as that.

[Mike Axelrod]

Yeah, well said.

[Marco Pani]

So the challenge in the future is to find whatever mean to conserve spaces.

[Braxton]

Yeah.

[Marco Pani]

With people, clearly.

[Mike Axelrod]

Sure. Coexisting with people.

[Marco Pani]

Exactly.

[Braxton]

Exactly.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, look, let's not take another four years to get you back on the podcast now that you've broken your cherry. It's not scary thing. You know, you can come back and you can do this again. We'll do it again. And we. I appreciate everything that you do, everything that John does, everything that Conservation Force does. You guys are in the background all the time. People have no idea of the pies.

[Robbie]

That your fingers are in.

[Mike Axelrod]

They are substantial. And I am in.

[Braxton]

Know.

[Mike Axelrod]

Honored to call you a friend. Honored to work side by side with you, even though sometimes you drive us all crazy. We love you tremendously and thank you for coming on and doing this.

[Braxton]

You.

[Mike Axelrod]

You know.

[Marco Pani]

I like to throw stones in the poem and see the ripples because if you don't do like this sometime people are too lazy to think.

[Braxton]

That's true. That's true. That's true.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well said again. Well said again. Let's do this again. Okay.

[Marco Pani]

Thank you, Robbie. Thank you for. I appreciate.

[Mike Axelrod]

Well, that's it for today.

[Marco Pani]

I appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your.

[Robbie]

Friends, and most importantly, do what's right.

[Marco Pani]

To convey the truth around Hunter.