Episode 584 - Peet Van Der Merwe || Hunting Benefits The Economy

Summary

The Origins Foundation Podcast

Episode 584: Peet Van Der Merwe || Hunting Benefits The Economy
Release Date: August 14, 2025
Host: The Origins Foundation

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Introduction

In Episode 584 of The Origins Foundation Podcast, host Robbie engages in an insightful conversation with Professor Pete Van der Merwe, a distinguished academic from the School of Tourism Management at the University of the Northwest in South Africa. The episode delves deep into the economic and conservation benefits of hunting tourism in South Africa, especially in the post-COVID landscape.

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Guest Introduction: Professor Pete Van der Merwe

[01:00 – 05:30]

Rodney introduces Professor Pete Van der Merwe, highlighting his expertise in tourism management and sustainable game farming. Professor Pete shares his academic background, emphasizing his research interests which span the four pillars of nature-based tourism: ecotourism, wildlife tourism, adventure tourism, and jeu (game) tourism.

Notable Quote:
"If you need a cooler, a new fishing rod, another rifle ammo or a reloading press, you can find it [e-mail] thanks for your business." — Advertisement Skip

(Note: The above quote is part of the advertisement and not relevant to the core discussion.)

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Overview of Hunting Tourism's Economic Impact

[05:30 – 15:11]

Professor Pete and Robbie discuss the significant economic contributions of hunting tourism to South Africa. They reference a recent study titled "Assessing the Contributions of Hunting Tourism to the South African Economy, a Post COVID Analysis", co-authored by Robbie and André Simon.

Key Points:

• Direct Economic Contributions:
  Previous studies estimated the direct economic impact of hunting to be around 14 billion rand per hunting season.

• Indirect Multiplier Effect:
  The recent study reveals that for every $1 spent in hunting tourism, an additional $2 is generated, culminating in a total economic impact of approximately 44 billion rand (or $2.5 billion) per hunting season. This multiplier effect stems from the redistribution of funds across various sectors such as agriculture, trade, accommodation, and personal services.

Notable Quote:
"For each dollar that the guy spends in South Africa, it generates another $200,000." — [26:06] Robbie

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Comparison to Ecotourism

[19:02 – 25:42]

The conversation shifts to comparing hunting tourism with ecotourism. Using an example from Namibia, Robbie illustrates that a small number of hunters can generate income comparable to a much larger number of ecotourists. Specifically, a game reserve hosting 50 hunters can earn as much as one hosting 9,500 ecotourists.

Key Points:

• Spending Patterns:
  International hunters in South Africa spend significantly more per trip (~400,000 rand) compared to local hunters (~60,000 rand), making the economic impact per individual hunter substantially higher.

• Economic Efficiency:
  Hunting tourism provides a more concentrated economic benefit due to higher individual expenditures, despite fewer participants compared to ecotourism.

Notable Quote:
"The international hunter spends close to 400,000 rand per hunting trip to South Africa, which is almost five times more than the local 100, which is around about 60,000 rand that they spent." — [21:20] Robbie

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Conservation Benefits of Hunting

[30:21 – 37:47]

Professor Pete emphasizes the critical role of hunting in wildlife management and conservation. Sustainable hunting practices help regulate animal populations, preventing overpopulation and subsequent environmental degradation.

Key Points:

• Wildlife Population Management:
  Without controlled hunting, wildlife populations can exceed the carrying capacity of their habitats, leading to issues like starvation and habitat destruction.

• Conservation Funding:
  Revenue from hunting tourism is reinvested into conservation projects, anti-poaching initiatives, and community development, ensuring the protection of endangered species and preserving biodiversity.

• Sustainable Practices:
  Game farm owners adopt sustainable hunting practices, ensuring that their wildlife populations remain stable and viable for future generations.

Notable Quote:
"If hunting is stopped in South Africa, what will be the impact on conservation? How much wildlife will we lose?" — [30:21] Robbie

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Public Perceptions and Education

[31:36 – 41:29]

Rodney addresses the negative perceptions surrounding hunting, particularly criticisms from animal rights groups and misconceptions held by the general public.

Key Points:

• Misinformation:
  Many critics argue that hunting does not contribute to conservation or the economy. However, education and transparent communication can dispel these myths.

• Ethical Hunting Practices:
  The hunting community emphasizes ethical practices, such as fair chase and selective hunting, which contrast with the unethical portrayal often presented in media.

• Cultural and Economic Dependencies:
  In regions like South Africa, hunting is intertwined with cultural traditions and economic necessities, especially among communities that rely on hunting tourism for their livelihoods.

Notable Quotes:
"When you start to educate them why we do hunting, what is it contributing to South Africa, how it created to job creation..." — [31:36] Robbie
"But the biggest population of hunters in South Africa hunt to eat the meat. It's not for trophy hunting..." — [41:29] Robbie

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Challenges in Data Collection

[37:53 – 40:30]

A significant challenge highlighted in the discussion is the lack of reliable data on wildlife populations in South Africa. While national parks maintain records, private game farms often do not disclose their wildlife numbers, complicating efforts to understand the full scope of hunting's impact.

Key Points:

• Private Sector Reluctance:
  Game farm owners may be hesitant to share wildlife data due to privacy concerns or fear of increased regulation.

• Need for Comprehensive Studies:
  Accurate assessments of hunting's impact on the economy and conservation efforts require detailed and transparent data from both public and private sectors.

Notable Quote:
"The private sector is a bit reluctant. And to get information from the private sector is so difficult because sometimes when you ask them information, they think you're gonna use it to give it to government..." — [38:27] Robbie

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Conclusions and Future Directions

[40:30 – 43:14]

The episode concludes with a reaffirmation of hunting tourism's vital role in South Africa's economy and conservation efforts. Professor Pete and Robbie advocate for continued research, education, and transparent communication to enhance public understanding and support for hunting as a sustainable practice.

Key Points:

• Educational Initiatives:
  Developing educational materials and engaging in public discourse are essential to counteract negative stereotypes and highlight the positive impacts of hunting.

• Further Research:
  There is a need for more comprehensive studies to solidify the understanding of hunting's multifaceted benefits, especially in areas where data is currently lacking.

Notable Quotes:
"We're going to take your paper and we're going to convert it into a couple of pieces of educational material." — [40:30] Professor Pete Van der Merwe
"We need to educate people and explain the positive impact of hunting..." — [41:05] Robbie

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Final Thoughts

Episode 584 offers a nuanced exploration of hunting tourism's contributions to South Africa, balancing economic benefits with conservation imperatives. Through the expertise of Professor Pete Van der Merwe, listeners gain a deeper appreciation for the strategic role hunting plays in wildlife management and economic sustainability.

For those interested in the intersections of conservation, economy, and sustainable tourism, this episode serves as a compelling resource, emphasizing the importance of informed dialogue and evidence-based practices in shaping the future of hunting tourism.

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Notable Timestamped Quotes:

• "[26:06] Robbie: 'For each dollar that the guy spends in South Africa, it generates another $200,000.'"

• "[21:20] Robbie: 'The international hunter spends close to 400,000 rand per hunting trip to South Africa, which is almost five times more than the local 100, which is around about 60,000 rand that they spent.'"

• "[31:36] Robbie: 'When you start to educate them why we do hunting, what is it contributing to South Africa, how it created to job creation...'"

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This comprehensive summary encapsulates the key discussions and insights from Episode 584, providing a clear and engaging narrative for those seeking to understand the economic and conservation benefits of hunting tourism in South Africa.

Transcript

[Narrator]

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[Robbie]

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[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

If you need a cooler, a new.

[Robbie]

Fishing rod, another rifle ammo or a reloading press, you can find it [e-mail] thanks for your business.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Professor Pete Van der Mewer is a professor in the School of Tourism Management at the University of the Northwest. That's in South Africa. It's in a town called Potchestrom. The reason I had Prof. Pete on the podcast is I like to tickle the science side of me and I know that you guys enjoy getting science some of the science components behind hunting, which is one of the sort of foundational things that we can use to prove what hunting is doing for people, wildlife and communities all over the world. Well, the paper that we discussed today is called Assessing the Contributions of Hunting Tourism to the South African Economy, a post Covid analysis. Now I've talked to Prof. Pete before where he talked about direct economic contributions of hunting, which is in about the 14 billion rand range per hunting season. And so but he didn't have the indirect multiplier. He didn't understand how that that dollar every dollar spent by hunting multiplies into as an indirect force multiplier in the agricultural sector, trade sector, accommodation, personal services. And so this paper really spent a lot of time using some fancy economic analyses to really get to that force multiplier. And that force multiplier is very simple. For every $1 spent through hunting tourism, $2 is generated as a force multiplier. So I wanted to talk to Pete about it. I wanted to get his knowledge about it. And I want you to absorb this information so you can use it online in denim parties to really show that hey, there is an economic benefit to hunting, specifically in South Africa. And here's the data. So enjoy. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that Reason is simple is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting. It brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals.

[Robbie]

How do I start it? Brittany?

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

My name.

[Robbie]

Does my hair look okay?

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game from the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to hunter. A returning guest must have had lots of people say, you know, good things about you. I. I'll call you Pete. But Prof. Va. Welcome back to the Blood Origins podcast.

[Robbie]

Yeah, thank you, Robin. Thank you. Seeing you. Nice seeing you again. I mean, was it two years ago with Twitch or was it last year? I can't remember. But thanks for hosting me again.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

No, I think, you know, we want to have good conversations with good people that are doing good work and, you know, I get to tickle the science side of who I am just occasionally. And today is one of those opportunities.

[Robbie]

Yes.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

And I know the last time we talked. Well, before we get into it, Pete, tell people a little bit about yourself. You're a professor, you're out of South Africa. Tell me a little bit about your position, what you do, your interests.

[Robbie]

Yes, I'm, I'm based in Northwest University. I'm at the School of Tourism Management and we're all for part of a faculty of Economic management Science. And then I'm also from part of a. The research unit trees, which stands for tourism Research in Economic environments and society. My background is I like nature and wildlife and I did my PhD on sustainable game farming. And from there on I also lecture game farm management. And my research interest is a signature base. So I do research in all four pillars of nature based tourism, of natural area tourism, which is based on ecotourism, wildlife tourism, adventure tourism, and Jew tourism. So that's, that's my recent interest and field that I'm working in and doing most of my recesses.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

So Pete, when the, when the university, that apartment is titled something around tourism, how does university see tourism? Is it all encompassing? Because people hear tourism. People hear tourism. Typically it's just, you know, the debacle that we've all seen on video coming out of the Serengeti, right. Of all of these vehicles lined up on a river and it's tourism. I mean, Photographic tourism.

[Robbie]

Always making joke and said to people that I'm studying how to go on vacation. But I mean if you look at.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Our setup, wouldn't that be a career, right?

[Robbie]

Yeah, I mean life's about choices, Robbie. Life's about choices. But to give you a background on what we offer, I mean we've got the BEC Tourism which is a combination of botany and tourism management. Then we've got the BCom tourism management which we offer at the university which is more for your management type of students want to be in management. You've got accountancy and economics in those type of things. And then we also have a BA Tourism degree that we offer. So I think it is. Lots of people think it's not sort of a science. I mean we form part of economic management science. So it's a management science. And we're also slots in a lot in with marketing because a lot of a big part of tourism is marketing.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

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[Robbie]

So if you look at our subject that students do have at the honors level, where I mostly are involved in is tourism marketing, tourism management and then they also have what I like to nature based tourism on honors level and a bit of game farm management at the third year level.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Do they get is I guess maybe a more of a blunt question. Is hunting included in tourism like in the curriculum? Do they talk about hunting as tourism?

[Robbie]

Yes, I mean if you, if you. That's why I mentioned the four pillars of of nature based tourism, natural area tourism and if you look at wildlife tourism, which is one of the pillars I just mentioned that consists of any engagement with wildlife in a captured environment and also in a non captured environment and that also includes non consumptive and consumptive usage of wildlife. So that's where it's lodging. Your non consumptive will be photographic safaris and your consumptive will be fishing and hunting. And we've got a career as not a career subject in our third year program which is game farm management from a tourism perspective. And if you look at South Africa, a lot of our nature based tourism products is game farms or game reserves. And lots of our students work at these places. So in this subject what we do is we look at game farm management, capturing wildlife, managing wildlife, starting your, your, your, your lodges and those type of things. We also look at the other management aspects. We also have a chapter on hunting tourism to explain to people why hunting tourism why is important and also a bit on, on, on trophy hunting and those things. So that's basically what, what the textbook is about. And I can show you when I've got one. Here's the textbook that we use.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Game farm and hunting tourism. That's amazing.

[Robbie]

Yes, and it was written by me and one of my colleagues as we realized there's a gap in, in, in a specific subject and in, in tourism. As I said, a large of a big part of South African tourism product, nature based tourism product is game reserves.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

So let's. The reason I wanted to have you on this podcast is you have just published a paper yourself and Andre Simon.

[Robbie]

Yeah, Andrea.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Andrea Simon. And the, the article title was Assessing the contributions of Hunting Tourism to the South African Economy, a population Post Covid analysis. Maybe before we get into the paper itself, the reason why I wanted to have you on is it's one of the things we're very keen on and interested in is showing the proof, right, the proof of hunting. And one of the things that, you know, there's pieces of rhetoric that are constantly pushed across against hunting, I. E. Number one, hunting does nothing for people, hunting does not contribute to the economies, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

[Robbie]

Now the other one you can add there is that does not contribute to conservation. That's the other argument.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's lots of those. So let me ask this, this analysis is a post Covid analysis. So is there data to show pre Covid that there was a contribution of hunting tourism to the South African economy?

[Robbie]

Yes and no. Remember before COVID we did some analysis. We did one on economics of trophy hunting and we did some work on bolton hunting in certain provinces of South Africa, but we never done before. And this what makes this very important. And it also was now obviously after Covid, we never looked at the economic contribution of hunting together and meaning together looking at the local hunting and the trophy hunting or the international market. So this was the first time which we run the survey at both groups at the same time. So the data was captured during the same time, the same method was used. So what we then did is we pulled this Data together and then we develop a study. What we just is what you are referring to. So. And also post Covid was hunting was one of the indices with yes, all the tourism industries or tourism products. It was hit hard by Covid. What we realized in South Africa is that the local hunting opened up soon. I mean our government allowed for people visiting game pumps. It's not crowded areas, but international hunting stay close until almost the end of 2021. And we wanted to see did it recovered. And yes, so the study showed that it recovered. We did some previous study on trophy hunting on the economic impact of Europe, but as I said, never we combined the two markets, the local market and the international market.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Interesting, interesting. So when when you looked at this you're like all right, look, we're coming out of COVID hunting potentially has a viability. You know, we need to get the GDP of South Africa up and running again. Essentially the study was like all right, well let's just see what that contribution is from a hunting perspective. Right?

[Robbie]

Yes, as I said, I mean we determined previously them separately but we want a combined one and we want to know how much it is because we always previous study showed that it's high. And some of the previous work that we did. I remember the first time that we chat the previous summit we chat we only had a look at the directing back and now we. We did use different methodology. We used the SAM which is a social accounting matrix. And I'm not economist so that's why Andrea is with me. She did all the cavus stuff for us. But that. That gives us the ability to look at direct, indirect and also the induced spending of hunting. This meaning that. I mean if you look at hunting hunting which is created on the game farm by the hunters and those your indirect huntings may be that game farm owner goes to buy some stuff at the local grocery store at luxury grocery store buy some stuff at a different place. But you induced impact. So we wanted to look at that. And that's the key, right?

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

That is really the key. Like and that's what I'm interested in, right? I. I guess I'm not so much interested in a guy hunting. I'm interested in understanding what are the benefits that come as a result of that person hunting. The jobs, the community impacts, the venison being distributed into hostels and orphanages. You know, all those elements which is essentially what this is the indirect economic impact. That hunter is spending X dollars to to shoot X animal. But what is that? What is that force multiplier of that individual being there. Is that what, what you try to do?

[Robbie]

Yes, but we also had to look at the different sectors of our economy like agriculture and mining and those ones. So we also, we used, if I remember correctly, eight or nine of the sectors came out in the study. And agriculture was the one that benefits the most from hunting in South Africa. So that was important for us to see that. But just referring what you have just said. I mean if you want to look at the value chain, and this covers the whole value chain of hunting industry. The study which we just did is if you look at the value chain, you mentioned hunting but there's also your, your, your. Your. Your game capturing teams. There's your veterinary services, various, your auctions which we do if we do have a game need. So just this is all direct sort of impact things. But then we also have other tourism industries which also benefits from this like your transport agencies or vehicle hiring guys. So all of those guys were captured in the study. And that's why the amount that we previously had was quite low versus this one which is 44 billion or 2.5 billion US dollars. But remember it's now for direct indirect end induce. So that gives us a total impact of. Of hunting in South Africa economy. And that also shows us which other sectors in the industry benefits from hunting. As I just showed up, agriculture one of the most that benefited the most.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

So the. Let's get into the actual like data. So you just mentioned a little bit of it and you. And you translated it into US dollars. What did you say? 44 billion rand, 2.5 billion US is that on an annual basis that comes from hunting tourism, direct and indirect?

[Robbie]

Yeah. What we did is if you remember, if you look at the international market, what is important to know about them. They only come and hunt once. So it was for a time period from 2022 to 2023 which we capture the data for the hunting and the South African market was for the same time period. But that's hunting season time that hunt. But your South Africa hunter might two or three times. Where the international hunter only comes here for one hunting trip. But it was for a season. So per hunting season that is a money that is generated.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Pete, did you have any insight? You know one of the things that I, I see when I when I come to South Africa in November, I watch a DFFE presentation on the number of trophies taken by international hunters split by province. And they have a, you know a number that that's generated because of the, the monies brought in. And I Want to say like the number is like 2 billion rand or something like that. Okay, but do you have any insight into and, and here's the reason I'm sort of stumbling over my words here. Because these are just your typical trophy hunts, right? These are just your typical plains game hunting, but not your high do animals. Because there is no permitting associated with leopard, lion, elephant, rhino. Like there's no real permits coming out from dffe.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Do you have any insight to what that would do to your number if those things were available in South Africa? I heard crazy numbers like it would go from 2 billion to like it would triple it.

[Robbie]

Yeah Robbie, that's a very difficult one. I mean I. I don't have much insight into. The first thing is what we need to know is how many of those animals will be able to hunt. But I can give you some figures on. On what people tells me what it costs to hunt those species. For example, I know that hunting operators charge their clients around about 30000 US dollars to hunt the leopard in Mozambique. So that's. That's. But will definitely increase the spending on. On hunting of.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Of.

[Robbie]

Of our visitors. But it. It will only be a small percentage my perspective of international hunter will that will have enough money or will rich enough to do that type of hunts but it will definitely have impact on. On. On the spinning of hunters. As currently as it as it is the international hunter spend close to 400,000 rand per hunting trip to South Africa which is almost seven or five times more than the local 100 which is around about 60,000 rand that they spent. So yes.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Do you have a comparison? Do you have a comparison to an international ecotourist is about equivalent.

[Robbie]

Is it higher?

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Has nobody ever done that?

[Robbie]

No, but it's so difficult to do the studies because I was trying to do that at some stage. But to get access to your gain from owners or your large owners is very difficult. Luckily for the hunting industry, we've got some hunting fraternity. You need to belong to some organization. So we have like wrsa, we have faza, we have a custodians, we have Charza, we have essay hunters. So it's easier to get data from these guys. There's no one overarching body that sort of say listen, all these ecologics belong to us. So you need to go to different organization, different brands and then you need to do some research there. But I would love to see spending to compare with two. What I. What? Yeah, I don't want to deviate from our discussion but I did Some work in Namibia a while ago and it was a game reserve, about 33,000 hectares. I'm not going to give a name. And the guy received around about nine and a half thousand tourists per year. So he's owned his game reserve. So he received nine and a half thousand eco tourists or wildlife tourists visiting photographic safaris. And then he has a lot for hunting tourism and he only received around about 50 plus hunters per year. The income between the two groups are more or less the same.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's. That's the answers. Okay. We're not going to say who the game. We're not going to, we're not going to say who it is. We're not going to say the game reserve. Yeah, but 95,000 tourists.

[Robbie]

No, nine and a half thousand.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Oh shit. I got the number way wrong. Okay. Nine and a half thousand.

[Robbie]

I might, I might have said wrong. Nine and a half thousand tourists.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Nine and a half thousand tourists versus 50 hunters.

[Robbie]

Yeah, let's say around about that number. And the income is more or less. Just like.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Yeah, do we know. But, and, but you're so tying it back to the study. We don't have an idea of the indirect multiplier of the ecotourist. Do we think it's similar?

[Robbie]

No, I don't, I don't think it's similar. Depend on numbers. I think what, what might have a big impact. We have more ecotourists coming to South Africa internationally than our hunters. I mean if you look at the number of hunters, they estimate the number of international hunters. The fruit differs between 6 to 9,000 depending on, on which year. We work on an estimated 200,000 hunters for South African hunters, which I also think is under the. Yeah, I might think there's more, but we don't have a specific number for that as well. But we always had to work with that because the industry gave me a number saying that this is more or less a number. So just looking at the sheer size of your wildlife tourists versus your hunting tours can be more due to the numbers of people that visit South Africa. And also these are the numbers of people in South Africa that do go to Kruger National Park. What I, what I can see is we did a lot of research for, for national parks in the past. The spending purpose, the actual spending of, of Ecotourism national park is not the same as we as a hunters. They spend quite less than, than hunters. But due to the number of people that are taken ecotourism, it can be more. Definitely. Yes.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Yeah, that's a very. And Just did you, have you published that?

[Robbie]

No.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

You're classic bloody professor. You collect all this data and you just hold it on the computer.

[Robbie]

Yeah, well we did some publishing on the national park, but it was not economic studies, just market inflation. So we indicated the average spending of these guys. But it's not been through any social accounting matrix or models.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Sure. So let's talk about that production multiplier. Right, the production multiplier. Is it fair to say that the production multiplier is the indirect, like after you spend X it multiplies by Y and that that multiplier by Y is really the knock on effect, dare I say knock on effect, indirect effect of the person spending the dollar.

[Robbie]

Yeah. If you look at the study we did this, the multiplier effect of hunters was close to 3. So it's 1.2.97.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

What does that mean? What does that mean? If you multiply of three.

[Robbie]

Yeah. That means for each dollar that the guy spend in South Africa, it generate another $2. So if a guy comes and spent $100,000, he generate another $200,000. So that's a multiplier effect which is quite good from a, from a tourism perspective. And if you look at other studies.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

So let me ask this, did you break down that multiplier of the, of the $2 that are created where, which sectors is that $2 generated or is it just a generalization across multiple sectors?

[Robbie]

No, it's, it's across different sectors. It's not in one sector. We can't determine that. But as I said we, we were able to, to determine which sectors in the South Africa economy benefit the most. And I'm going to mention, I'm just going to give you both now if.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

You give me a, give me some examples. When you mention like agriculture, like what do you mean in that sector is benefiting?

[Robbie]

No, I can't tell you what is benefiting. I can just tell you that agriculture is the one we generate the most.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Okay.

[Robbie]

And I can tell you what, that other trade accommodation was also amongst the highest.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

That makes sense. That makes sense.

[Robbie]

Makes sense. Transportation was also one. Financial business services were also part of it. But once we generated quite substantial income.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Do you think the agricultural sector is the, what you mentioned before, like the veterinary services, game management, game transport, game capture. Would that all be classified under agriculture?

[Robbie]

Yeah, that do all form part of aggressive. You see this is, this is. And again I'm not the economist, Andrea should have been with me. But this is what the SAM model give us this different sectors and by running the SAM or running the data through this model. The model put the spending through these different areas and then the model give us this calculations and bring forth the different sectors with benefits the most.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

So Pete, are we comfortable in saying. And I guess this is. It's asinine that we have to do this, right? It's asinine that we have to have a study to prove this. But we are very confident that we can say hunting directly impacts the economy of South Africa.

[Robbie]

Yeah, definitely. Definitely, yeah.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

To the tune of 2 1/2 billion US dollars per hunting season from the 2022 to 2023 post Covid hunting season. It was a $2.5 billion investment through hunting. Or is that again I want to be correct here. Is that direct and indirect? Is that with the multiplier?

[Robbie]

With a multiplier. So direct with the multiplier. Yes, with a multiplier.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

And so within that 2.5 billion. So let's go to 4, let's change it to rand. So 40 billion rand. So let's just call it. If you're, if you're talking about the multiplier, it's around 12 and a half billion rand is being generated directly by hunting.

[Robbie]

And then you've got the previous talk we had. We look at the direct impact and it was close to. I was just going look at my data but it was close to 14 billion for a minute.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

14 billion, yes. With a multi.

[Robbie]

And we only look at the spend times.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Yeah, exactly. Now we multiply it BY like you know, two essentially 1.97 to generate the 44 billion rand that we're talking about. And so the paper has shown additionally that there is an indirect benefit from hunting tourism in South Africa that is two times greater than the direct contribution.

[Robbie]

Yes, that's correct. And then we must also remember the conservation value of hunting. I mean I think we spoke about that last, last time as well. If we going to take away hunting in provinces like Limpop over northwest and we're going to stop hunting, save us stop hunting in South Africa, what will be the impact on conservation? How much wildlife will we lose? I mean those farmers will divert back to cattle farming maybe. So it also has a big conservation value for me in South Africa. And if you look at currently a lot of endangered species are also part of this whole hunting industry and game farm industry. If you look at drones and sables and also rhino, most of rhino populations is on private land. So the thing that I want to come to it in Africa and in South Africa specific, if it Pays its taste is if it's economic value, people will host that wildlife on their farm.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

So Pete, let me, let me go beyond your paper for a second. In your opinion, why then is there such an attack on hunting in South Africa?

[Robbie]

Yeah, I think there's a couple of things. The first thing, what I always look at people when they speak to me about hunting and they against hunting. As soon as you start to educate them why we do hunting, what is it contributing to South Africa, how it contributed to, to job creation and we need to manage wildlife because all our wildlife in South Africa fenced in. So we have a carrying capacity issue. So if we don't hunt, what is going to happen with that wildlife on that area? I mean if you've got ecotourism, it's fine, but at certain stage your numbers will multiply at such a rate and stage that you'll have a problem like just happened in Mandiqui where we had some elephants that died there due to the overpopulation, as I said. So that's one thing I think we need to educate. I do also see that some of the hunting stuff it was published which was done in South Africa, which I also see is unethical and the wrong way to do it. That sort of trigger that sensitive emotion in people. And that is one thing that our industry need to look at that we the way that we do hunting. But it's a, it's ethical and acceptable for public. They're public but, but it's not. I mean sometimes you got this big eco issue about hunters and pacing with his wildlife and, and also sometimes post wild hunting where we shoot the animal two or three times of these type of things. So what we post we must be very careful in that. So we don't sort of regard people disregard people regarding hunting. So that is the other thing which we need to look at. And then as I said, people must be educated. And then the other thing is if ethical or cultural behavior, ethics for what's for your ethics for you is depend on your religion, your culture, maybe your economic status and your background, how you were raised background. So if I take for example black people in South Africa, they grew up with dog hunting, but it's illegal, it's unethical. If I take people in the Kalahari region by hunt, maybe with a vehicle, which some people say is unethical, but when the guys say in the Kalari region, if you don't have a baki or a vehicle, it's a pickup, you won't be able to. And because the areas is so large, so one must just look at that as well. And I sometimes think that.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

But even you know, the black South African who's running dogs, you said it was unethical. He wouldn't say it's unethical.

[Robbie]

Precisely. That's my point. So I, I feel that if you look at, at hunting and people it might have a problem. But I, I sometimes see that countries that do not have hunting in Europe might be, have a bigger problem with hunting. If you speak to some of the American people, they understand it because they do have hunting. They also participate in hunting. But it depends if you know what's going on on the ground. And that's why it's so important for me to educate people. Say the guy from Europe comes in, you say listen, I don't like hunting, this isn't it. And I had a lot of students here and I explained to them how it works. I said, but why don't you guys explain? And I, and I also tells the hunting industry guys, why don't you make educational videos about hunting to explain the positive side of hunting and focus on the positive impact of hunting on the economy, on wildlife populations, on, on for example, the mountain zebra is not on the red list anymore due to breeding of a private sector and there's a value to it. So yeah, that is what I think is, is the issue here.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Well that's why we exist, Pete.

[Robbie]

Yeah, I know.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

That's why we do what we do. That's why we do what we do.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Is to educate that non hunting middle and interesting examples.

[Robbie]

Yeah, I was last week with some people from Sand Parks and we did working on a project even they need to take away. I'm not going to give a number but it's thousands of animals that they need to either sell to somebody, donate to some people because they also has a carrying capacity. All our national parks are things. So what are we going to do? Are we just going to leave that wildlife to destroy the natural environment or are we going to manage that? Well, this is just one of the management tools.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

There's such an economy here. We're talking about an economy here.

[Robbie]

Yeah, precisely.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Sand Parks has great numbers of animals. They're reaching, you know, let's say government, they've got too many zebra, they've got too many buffalo, okay. Sell it to the sustainable use community, generate money for your national parks and that money then is straight through into the economy indirectly directly supporting the national park, supporting wildlife conservation. Shit. This is a win, win, win.

[Robbie]

Yeah. If you look At Africa. I mean, none of the African countries can sustain bay conservation areas from government funding. We all need tourism and we all need other forms of income. If I remember correctly, national parks In South Africa, 80% of the incomes from tourism to manage their budget. So as you mentioned, just think how much more you can generate if you can do more of your wildlife. And currently they do sell to private sector. I can buy rhino from them, I can buy elephants from them, I can buy impala from them. And sustainable use is the key to this because we've got more wildlife today than 50 years ago in South Africa. And again it's due to there's a value to that wildlife, either photographic safaris or hunting. And I can use it sustainably because none. I've never seen a hunting outfitter or a game farm owner kill all his wildlife. And that's sometimes a perspective that people have it they will shoot everything. But they don't. Because if you hunt too much this year, you won't have anything for next year. So you need to manage your business sustainably. So they take over excess amount of wildlife which is on the farm. And next year the animals breed again and they take off excess again. And that is what they are.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

You know what's. You triggered something in my brain, a piece of science that's missing. So Pete, you gotta. This is your next piece of science that you need to tackle is I cannot find a reliable piece of data that tells us how many animals we actually have in South Africa.

[Robbie]

That's a big problem. I agree with you.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

How many animals are national parks? Yeah. Somebody say 20 million. Some people say 26 million. I'm like, Geez, a range of 6 million. Maybe that's what we have to have. But sheesh.

[Robbie]

Yeah, I think the parks boards do have a better, better understanding of how much I do have on the land. The private sector is a bit reluctant. And to get information from the private sector is so difficult because sometimes when you ask them information, they think you're gonna use it to give it to government so there can be more text of these things. And that makes it difficult to get that information. So I think from the organized hunting fraternity or game farm manage group like WRS at wildlife grounds in South Africa, those guys that do belong to organization, we might find a number of their wildlife. The problem comes in, for example, I'm a farmer and I farm with cattle. But on my farm I got a little, not a little. I've got a game, game area as well. Those guys don't give a numbers for it. I mean on our farm and I do have a farm. Best kudu, best Hangsburg, best springbok, best Wardrock. I don't know the numbers there because it's not quite important to me. I'm a cattle farmer but there's wildlife so. And it's on private land and every year these cattle farmers allow hunters to hunt there to manage their wildlife numbers on Red Lake because otherwise it's almost.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Like you have to come up with a general head of wildlife density per cattle farm, multiply that by the acreage of cattle farms, then add onto that private game reserves that are obviously both ecotourism and hunting.

[Robbie]

Yeah. So I would love to see how much at least have a scientific way that we can see how much wildlife we do because at this stage it's more of a palm suck. But we know there's a lot just to give you idea. When I was a child we had no kudu wardrobe and very little of the other species coming through that our land nowadays there's plenty. Why lots of guys started game farms in our area. Game you don't keep in. They do escape from the game farms which is fenced in and they go into open farms as well. And now we have plenty of wildlife.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No it's outstanding man. And Pete, thank you, thank you for just doing you know, basic science, basic research, answering some very basic questions that we can use to educate the non hunting majority. So yeah, you know we're going to take your paper and we're going to convert it into a couple of pieces of of educational material. This PODC being one of them. Right. If somebody wants to listen to understand the impact of hunting tourism in South Africa. Post Covid. Well here is the, here's the analysis.

[Robbie]

So thank you Robbie for giving us the opportunity. As I said we need to educate people and I as I said as soon as you start to explain to people what we're doing, how we're doing it, we don't have a problem. It's only sometimes your extremists that do have a problem, your animal right groups. But the general publication of public just need to be educated about what we're doing and why we. That's important.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Yeah 100 on here.

[Robbie]

I mean if you look at most of the South African hunters, they hunt to eat the meat. It's not for trophy hunting as lots of organizations are against trophy hunting but they say that they kill the animal just for fun. But the biggest population of hunters in South Africa hunt to eat meat and.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

It'S a healthy btong hunters. Yeah boltong hunters and yeah yeah yeah. So thank you Pete. I really appreciate you. Welcome back to the podcast anytime in the future. You have any more information or or science and whatnot, if you drop a paper, please reach out. Please send me an email and just say hey, I dropped this paper. Here it is. If you want to talk about it. Love to talk about it and we'd love to have you back.

[Robbie]

I will do so. I I I think I must make a list of all the people that's interested in these things and once we're done with work, I just send out the notice to you guys.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

100%. 100%. Thanks Prof. I appreciate you a lot.

[Robbie]

Thanks Robbie. Enjoy your day. Bye. Okay man.

[Professor Pete Van der Mewer]

Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening. As always, leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth. Around Hunting.

[Narrator]

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[Matt]

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[Robbie]

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[Matt]

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