← The Origins Foundation Podcast
The Origins Foundation Podcast
Episode 590 - Rick Bichel || Hunting Ethics In Australia
00:59:36
Rick Bichel, President of the Sydney branch of the Australian Deer Association, sits down with Robbie this week to dive deep into the ethics of hunting, specifically in the unique Australian context. From social media pressures, the feral species question and its effect on ethics, and much more.
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- [00:00]
A
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- [00:36]
B
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- [01:06]
C
Rick Bickle is the president of the Sydney branch of the Australian Deer Association. Rick reached out to me and asked me whether or not I'd be interested in having a conversation around ethical hunting, specifically in the Australian context. There are obviously a lot of social media pressures all across the world, especially in Australia. But there's also some, you know, ethical considerations around hunting, specifically in Australia, because of the fact that they chase feral slash, nuisance slash, invasive, non native species. And there's a culling element associated with that. And so the use of thermals, the use of spotlights on private land all come into question as someone is hunting deer or hunting these, these animals. And so Rick and I get into a conversation around ethics. What are they? What's his opinion? How does he classify things? And I just love these kinds of conversations because I think a lot of us think about these things all the time. But you don't often get to outwardly express them. Well, we do in this podcast, so enjoy. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins. And that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting. It brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals. How do I start it?
- [02:45]
A
Brittany?
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C
My name.
- [02:47]
D
Does my hair look okay?
- [02:49]
C
My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be, and a feminist that works For a nonprofit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game from the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to hunter. I will do this is it Biel, right?
- [03:25]
D
Bickles.
- [03:26]
C
Bickle. Bickle. Bickle. I should have, I should have said it like an Australian Rick. That's the problem here is like, I've been sending emails to you saying Richard, and you're. Your, your, your signature says Rick. So I'm just going to go with Rick.
- [03:41]
D
Yeah, it's either my mother or the tax agent that calls me Richard. I've been known as Rick since I was a young fellow, so I'll stick with Rick. It's a little less informal.
- [03:52]
C
Well, you use typically my line when people respond to me on email and they say, you know, Robert. And I say, look, if we're supposed. If we're going to have a relationship here, we're going to be partners, we're going to work together. You have to call me Robbie because my mother's the only one who calls me Robert when she's mad at me.
- [04:07]
D
Exactly. Same same on Marcel. I don't really.
- [04:11]
C
Well, awesome, awesome, awesome. And look, I promise, we are not in this podcast going to talk about who's the better rugby team because we all know the Springboks are better. So there's just no point going there. Right.
- [04:24]
D
I'm not, I'm not a massive union fan. I like watching it. I was over in South Africa early this year and we had a bit of a debate about even the F1 drivers as well. So we'll leave that one for another day.
- [04:38]
C
A hundred percent. One hundred percent. Well, Rick Bickle, welcome to the Blood Origins podcast. I know that we've been trying to sort of get this lined up, especially the topic, for quite some time now. Why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself.
- [04:56]
D
My name is Rick Bickle, currently the Sydney Branch ADA president. I've been hunting for quite some time now. It's something that I don't class as a hobby. It's more of a lifestyle. It envelops pretty much every moment of my life if I'm not thinking about my family or my work. And yeah, it's something I'm very passionate about. And over the last couple of years, I've focused more on helping others out in the field, educating people on traditional values with hunting and ethical and fair chase, which means a lot to me. And it's sort of getting sort of lost in the. In the noise at the moment in regards to sort of the social media space and the new, new breed of hunters that are coming through.
- [05:47]
C
Rick, explain to people that may not understand the Australian sort of landscape and maybe couch it with, with your experience and maybe how you came to it. Did your, did your dad teach you how to hunt? Did you come to it yourself? And if you did come to it yourself, like, how did that happen in the Australian context?
- [06:07]
D
Okay, so with the Australian context, we don't have too many native animals here that were allowed to hunt. Most of our species are all introduced the 60s species.
- [06:18]
C
Can you hunt any native animals?
- [06:21]
D
No, you can hunt kangaroos on permit. They're sort of more of a culling situation. So a farmer apply for a permit to have kangaroos culled on their property. There is areas in Australia, like Tasmania, where you can hunt wallaby legally, but on the mainland, especially New South Wales, definitely cannot touch them unless you have a permit, which the farmers apply for and to control numbers on their property. So it's, and it's a silly, because it's a great resource. Kangaroos are very high protein, source of meat, and there's millions of them, literally millions of them. They're everywhere. And for us not being able to access it, it's a bit silly. But that's something that we have to, we've been trying to push for to get it legalized because it's not going to hurt the populations. It's more of that sort of. It's on the coat of arms so we can't touch it is the general consensus for the general public. But yeah, so I started hunting pretty much with my grandfather, shooting rabbits as most young Australians did back then. We're only a couple of generations removed from. Our only protein source was chasing rabbits and, and that from the land when it was, when times were a bit tough. And then I sort of did a little bit of hunting with my family. And then when I moved To Sydney about 25 years ago, I dived straight back into just pretty much straight spearfishing. And with a lot of the guys in the spearfishing fraternity, a lot of them hunt as well. So become friends with a couple of guys that did a bit of hunting. And then from there it just blossomed. And it's pretty much everything that I do now. I do still do a little bit of spear fishing, a little bit of line fishing, but hunting is my main, my main thing that I do on the weekends.
- [08:17]
C
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- [11:57]
D
Okay, so New South Wales and Victoria are very similar. We have access to public land. New South Wales is a little bit different. You have a booking system. They have a number of state forests. You get onto a registrar, they allow, I think it's one hunter per every 400 acres. So however many acres are in that state forest forest, they'll have allocated amount of spaces available. You book in, you can go hunt your. They're all classes ferals In New South Wales, so you got your goats, pigs, deer, foxes, rabbits. And in Victoria it's a little bit different. You just pay for your game license and you can go hunt state forests and some national parks, states like Queensland have no public land hunting. South Australia has very limited hunting. Same with Wa and Northern Territory is great. You know about Northern Territory with the buffalo and that, but that's all on private land. You do have a bit of public land hunting, it's called the backcountry hunting, where you can apply for a permit and go hunt in Litchfield national park, which I've done. And it's great experience hunting in the national park.
- [13:12]
C
Isn't that the national park? Didn't that national park just open up even further, even more that there was an expanded of hunting opportunities in this field?
- [13:24]
D
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, it's a great program. And because as you know, buffalo is quite expensive to hunt in Australia and it gives us locals who don't have that sort of $10,000 to go hunt a buffalo the opportunity to go up there and experience Northern Territory. And I, I always push people to go up there. You have a little bit of a hurdle where you have to have a local attached to your permit. They'll take you out and, and help you out in Litchfield. I've got good mates that live up in there, so we did that a couple of years ago. But I've also hunted on private land up there as well. But back to New South Wales, I do have access to private land as well. So we do have that mix of. Between private and public. But the issue is with the private land. Nowadays it's very hard to get access to private land. A lot of farmers are very reluctant to let new hunters onto their properties purely because we've got a bit of a socio problem with poaching, spotlighting trespassing and hunters going out there and doing the wrong thing on the property. And the farmers are just. Their insurances don't sort of COVID those sort of issues. So they're very reluctant to have new hunters or any hunters at all on their properties, even though the feral numbers are out of control.
- [14:37]
C
You know, you would think that it would be almost a little bit of the opposite. Wouldn't a farmer want a reliable hunter or group of hunters on the property to be able to have eyes on the property constantly, to stop people poaching, that stuff, that kind of stuff?
- [14:58]
D
You'd think so. I lost a lot of properties a few years ago when the Game Council was disbanded and they stopped all the public land hunting in New South Wales. So everyone that had access to public land didn't have any access to hunt. So they went in, door, knocked and got onto private properties and they just sort of cut fences, shot livestock, shot natives like wombats and stuff like that. So we, we did ourselves an injustice. And it was hard because, like, I don't know too many of these people that do that style of. Of hunting or do that to a property, if I was to take them to it. And even with a lot of the guys in the hunting fraternity taking people to their private properties, it's hard because you don't know if they're gonna backdoor you and go back to the property on their own or take their mates. It's a really weird sort of environment. You'd think, like you said, like the farmers, they need the help they need to control the numbers, but they're just very reluctant to have hunters on their property. They're just not worth. They just don't see the value in it, the risk, which makes it hard because there's a lot of great properties out there.
- [16:08]
C
Yeah, yeah. You know, I've also heard, isn't there an insurance issue as well, Rick, or is that just in Queensland a liability issue with the landowners, with people coming onto their Property.
- [16:19]
D
Yeah, that's, that's, that's the big thing is insurances. If I had an instance on one of the properties that I hunt on, where they let a couple of young fellows on the, on the, onto the property. They were dog piggers and they weren't supposed to have any rifles. He shot one of his mates in the leg around the campfire while they were drinking. Had to get, chop it out. And I lost access to that property purely for the fact that the farmer said, mate, I just can't. He goes, I trust you, but I just don't trust the whole people having firearms on my property. So he had to stop hunting on his property for a couple of years until the numbers started growing out of control. And I got a phone call two years later asking if I was still doing a bit of hunting and he needed to control some foxes and pigs on his property. So that's, it's where our, we're doing ourselves an injustice by not following guidelines from the farmers, not following the rules and just going out there and doing whatever we want on their property. I'm not saying I'm, I'm, I, I put myself in a position where I'm very trustworthy. I, I ask for the questions before I get the access to ensure that I'm doing the right thing by the landowner.
- [17:29]
C
Yeah, you know, what you're painting here is the, is the narrative and perception of, you know, dare I say, the bad apples in hunting writ large. But Australia has a specific bad apple, which is, you know, the wife beater on the back of the ute spotlighting, you know, the crocodiles and the guys that are running around the back.
- [17:48]
D
We do, yeah. There is that image that does get portrayed to other, other hunters in, throughout the world, but there they are here. But there is a lot of, a lot of very respected members of the community that do hunt. But we all get tired with that brush of being that redneck on the back of the ute with the spotlight, which I try to always. I try to engage in a conversation with somebody who may be against hunting. I live in Sydney, so there's a lot of people that have an opinion on hunting without actually knowing what we actually do when we're out in the field. And I'm always happy to have the debate and I believe I'm very diplomatic in how I approach the, the debate. I wouldn't call it an argument. And I think I do slay people to understand that hunters aren't bloodthirsty killers. Like, I don't know Even my wife says many times I go out hunting and I don't shoot anything. I might see 30 or 40 deer in a trip, but I'm not willing to pull the trigger unless I've got an empty freezer or it's the right type of animal, or it's, it's, it's all about the hunt for me. It's not the actual pulling of the trigger and the, and the killings per se. And there's a lot of people in our community that, that have that same mindset. But there is, there is certain, certain people in the community that just, they just want to shoot everything they see. Which is unfortunate because, But I do get it because there we do have to control the numbers, but there is, there is the other side of the coin as well.
- [19:26]
C
Yeah. So Rick, let, talk about, talk to me about the difference because obviously Australia and New Zealand are very different landscapes than America and Africa and whatnot. You have species that are classified feral, slash, invasive, slash, non native.
- [19:42]
D
Okay.
- [19:43]
C
And because of that fact, there is a requirement for management or even from a farmer's perspective, a necessity for management. So in your brain, what is the difference between people hunting and people managing?
- [20:02]
D
So I've, I've been fortunate enough to hunt in New Zealand a few times and it's a great community over there. They have a different mentality when it comes to hunting. It's part of their culture. So it's very well accepted. Like as soon as you fly into the airport in New Zealand, especially if you've got a bit of chemo or you're carrying a gun case, people are willing to come up and ask the question where you're going hunting and they're very open to it. Whereas if you fly back into Australia, into Sydney and you're walking through the airport with a gun case, people look at you like you're a criminal. And it's just that mind, that mentality of we don't need hunting in Australia and the government agencies are there to control the numbers. But we've always had the view that we can work together with government agencies to help control the numbers and also provide a recreational activity and also provide for the freezer. So it's really hard to sort of try and put it into words of the actual mentality of, of the general public in Australia when it comes to hunting, because it's, it's, it's like it's treated as a crime, but it's been part of our culture for quite some time. It's, it's, I've Always. I've always tried to shine hunters in the right light and show that we're not, we're not the bad guy. We are out there helping control the numbers. We didn't introduce the species into Australia, but we're here to help control them. And the difference between hunting and culling.
- [21:43]
C
Yeah, sorry, Robbie. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead. Difference between hunting and culling?
- [21:49]
D
Culling. Hunting is it's an experience. Culling's more of a management culling's and it's done in the right way. It can be a very useful tool. How we going about it at the moment with the government agencies is just the, the helicopter culling and leaving all the corpses in the, in the field, which leads to wild dog numbers exploding. And the amount of money that we're spending on, on these programs, the taxpayers money, it's astronomical compared to if we were allowed more hunters into more areas. I believe you had Rob Borzak on earlier on. I talked to Rob and Rob Jr. A fair bit. We've got this conservation bill coming up soon. The submissions are nearly done. We're willing to go into these new places and control the numbers for free. Like we'll pay you to get, to get the access. We'll pay the licensing fees, we'll pay what we need to do to get into these areas and control the numbers for free and take the meat and the animals out of those areas instead of leaving them on the ground to pollute waterways and also to encourage populations of wild dogs to increase as well.
- [23:02]
C
So Rick, let me ask this question and it's poignant obviously to the direction of the conversation. What if I, from a culling perspective, I'm going to put myself in the hypothetical here. I am working with a farmer, I've got access to hunt his property and he says, I need you, Robbie, to take 80 deer a year off this property, I. E. I become de facto manager and I go out one afternoon and I shoot 10 deer. I only eat one, I take one, I leave nine. How do you, are you okay with that? Like, because that scenario is going to happen. Right, and how is that, is that detrimental to hunting? Is that, what does that look like perception wise, in, in that, in that.
- [24:03]
D
Aussie context, it's when you get access to private land and that's what the farmer wants for, that's what you need to do if you're unable to supply that service to the landowner because it is inherently his property and he's asking you to cull numbers. So that's where the difference between Culling and hunting. You might go out there and treat it as a hunt and you have to sort of devise between whether it's going to be classed as an ethical hunt or if it's going to be a cull. I've got properties where the landowner does request that he'll dig a hole for us, I'll shoot a couple for my freezer and then we'll shoot as many numbers as we can, we'll bury them to eliminate that issue with attracting wild dogs. But it all comes down to what that landowner requires from his property. We've got the numbers here. So it's not as If I shoot 80 deer off one property and there's no more deer left on that property. You only got to go for a drive down the road and you're probably going to find another good population of deer or feral species. So it's not as if, if we're shooting these numbers off the, off the land, they're disappearing.
- [25:12]
C
Rick, you, you, you made a qualification, the difference between ethical hunting and culling. What is that? What is the difference?
- [25:20]
D
So for me, ethical hunting comes down to the respect that you have for your quarry and pitting your skills up against that of your quarry. I'm predominantly a deer hunter, I'm a deer stalker. I don't participate in long range shooting when it comes to deer. I don't participate in using thermals or high powered scopes. It's, for me, it's putting my skills up against my quarry skills when it comes to sight, sound and sand. And I like being in cloud. I chose, my favorite game species is Samba. They're probably our preeminent and most revered species to hunt in Australia purely because they are just super switched on. They're used to evading tigers and leopards in India, so they're still, they're super hard to. So especially a big stag. So that's the difference between, for me, between ethical hunting, fair chase and culling is how much effort. Like you can go out with a thermal, you can go out with a spotlight and you can cull numbers because of a nighttime that they're a lot easier to approach, a lot easier to pick up with a thermal or a spotlight. And you're culling the numbers and that's a management point of view. Whereas if you're going for a hunt, if you're going for a deer stalk, you must, for me, you must have that ethical approach to have that respect for the animal. Because it's not all about the shooting, it's not all about pulling that trigger. It's about the whole approach. It's about the early mornings, it's the big drives to the properties. It's about putting your skill set up against them with the thermals, with the wind, with their ability to be able to pick your movements up from a, from a couple of hundred meters away. So that's what I find is the difference between ethical hunting and culling or shooting.
- [27:28]
C
I love these kinds of conversations because I get to ask hard questions of someone who's thought through this. Okay. And none of these hard questions mean I'm against you. It just means I'm interested in understanding how you got to the position you're in. Because I answer these questions all day long too. Okay, so let me ask this question. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So let me ask this. I want to, I want to dive into. Because when we talk about ethical hunting and we talk about all these different things and the technologies that come with hunting, okay? More often than not, somebody will frame it like this. They'll say it's a matter of someone's opinion on whether it's ethical or not. Okay. It's not actually ethics, it's just somebody's opinion on whether it's ethical or not. So you, you have said. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you a couple of questions here. I'll start with long range hunting. You said long range hunting is not something that you would consider ethical hunting in your frame of reference. Right.
- [28:38]
D
Deer stalking, when it comes to other species in other countries, it's, it's a different application. Like if you go to New Zealand and you're hunting tar and shami. I've hunted both. I was fortunate enough to shoot my first 12 inch tar at 80 meters, but we picked them up at 700 meters. I didn't want to pull the trigger from that distance. I had an opportunity to be able to get in a lot closer, and by accident, we bumped them, they pushed around, and they ended up coming up underneath us. And I shot my, my tar at 80 meters. I did miss a shot the day before at about 300 meters, which is about on the edge of my limit of long range because the animal can still pick up your movements. Tara got great eyesight, same as Shammy.
- [29:29]
C
So, so, so for tar, for. So for tar, you were in your brain. You were comfortable being an ethical hunter for tar, shooting it at 300. But for deer stalking, you aren't. Because as I'm, I'm feeling from you, it's more about the experience to getting Close for deer stalking versus doing a.
- [30:00]
D
300 met in saying that I know samba. I've got great eyesight. I've been in New Zealand at the Wapiti and I got picked up. We spotted a whoppity up on top of the range at 800 meters. We were moving around down on the flats and he was watching us. So the deer can actually see it from 800 meter or they can pick up the movement. With deer stalking, I enjoy the chase. I enjoy getting in nice and close and giving that animal a fair opportunity to evade my skillset, whether it's sight, scent or smell. And that's, that's where I like to tell people, like it's not about.
- [30:46]
C
So if I came, let me ask this. If I, if I, if I came to New South Wales and I wanted to hunt a fallow deer and I, I did all the legal things and I got a rifle and I, I went into a valley. I could hear them croaking and forget that they're even in the raw. I'm walking, you know, on a, on a ridge or on the side of the valley. I can see a deer on the other 300 meters. Very comfortable distance for me to shoot. I decide to set up and shoot that animal at 300. Would I, and here's a very hard question, would I not be an ethical hunter in your eyes?
- [31:25]
D
To put it in, I think for what your where, your background, where you're coming from and that's how you guys hunt. Like I guide as well. So I've got a father and son coming up this weekend where I'll be guiding on fallow and some pigs and goats and they're very new to hunting, but I give them the option. I said, I'm not here to judge the way that you want to hunt, but for me, if you want to, I'll put up. I usually do a bit of a presentation on ethical hunting and fair chase before we go out and do the hunt. They've got some really nice rifles with some big scopes on it. If they want, if that's how they want to hunt. They want to hunt out of the buggy and shoot the deer from that position. Because this property that I'm taking them to, it's a property where we do culling as well. It's how you want to take what you want to take away from the hunt and whether or not you want to shoot the biggest trophy on the property or you just want to. I don't class the trophy as the animal. I class the trophy as the hunt. So the effort you've put in, combined with the animal that you've taken, that gives you your trophy, not just the animal on the wall. And I feel that to the client, if you guys want to shoot it at 400 meters, no worries. I'll put you in a position where you can shoot it at 400 meters. How you class it as a trophy, that's up to you. I will always push the narrative that for me, for ethical hunting, for my own personal morals, that's not a shot for me. But I'm not here to judge. I'm here to promote the ethical side of hunting. I give them the option.
- [33:17]
C
Rick, do you think that the. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you think that though your ethics. And I'm, I'm saying I say it the way that I just said it because I, I think it's the wrong word that we, that we're using here. Okay. And I'll tell you why. And your sort of thought process around deer stalking has matured over the years. Would you say that you, your, your thought process, the way that you view the experience of hunting today is totally different than it was when you were 20. So.
- [33:56]
D
And this is what I try to tell a lot of the, the new hunters that are coming through as well. Social media is a big, big issue because it's all about instant gratification. The new hunters coming in, they see everyone else on social media posting up their big stags and their big bucks. I need to get a big buck. I need to get a big stag. They'll go out and they'll try these ethical methods of going out and hunting and putting on the stalk and getting in nice and closed. Keep coming up empty handed, keep bumping deer, keep making mistakes. I need to get a big stagger up on social media. So what do I do? Do I go out and buy a thermal? Do I go out at night, go spotlighting, or do I pick up a big long range rifle and shoot it at 800 meters? I, I've always had the, the thought process that I was taught the right thing when I was younger. And I've hung around some of the people that had that view that it's all about the hunt, not just all about getting that animal on the wall or on social media. So I can see why the new generation have that mindset and I can see how easy it is to go into a firearm shop and spend the dollars on a thermal. There's so much more readily available and a lot more cheaper than what they were 10 years ago. But I do see that side of the argument. But it's, and that's why I, when I said I'll take these hunters out, they're paying the money, it's what they perceive as being ethical and what they're comfortable with as opposed to my beliefs and what I'm comfortable with.
- [35:46]
C
Well, and I think there's this thing that we always have to grapple with. Okay, so for instance, let's use this example of your weekend and these people coming to, to hunt with you, right? You want them to, to enjoy it. You want them to enjoy the hunt. You want them to become hunters. You want them to experience everything that you experience. Right? And if they would, if they were thrown into the Rick Bickle method thought process of this is what hunting is to me right now, they would be in that realm of social media, which is, I'm not, I, I, I can't hunt. Like, I can't do this. I'm not getting anything, I'm getting frustrated. I'm not actually enjoying this anymore. And they may drop out or they may do everything that you just decided that, what not decided, everything that you just outlined, which is phenomenal. Right, because it's all true in that we want people to hunt like these new guys coming to you. We want them to enjoy it. And there is nothing wrong. And I'm going to say it very plain and simple, there is nothing wrong with someone with a high powered gun shooting a deer at 400 meters. And you've said the same thing, but once they've done it once, twice, three times, then the opportunity is for Rick Bickle to say, hey, let's see if we can get a little closer. Let's see if we can, we can sneak in as much as we can. And that adds in this new level of hunting prowess, which is the evolution of what's taken Rick Bickle from somebody that was 20 years old hunting very differently to you only being 21 now. But that's okay. You know, we won't tell everybody your age, which is your evolution. It's your maturation of hunting. And that is a part of the process. And I think people get, yes, social media is, social media is accelerating that maturation process. Okay, But I don't think that we should lump everybody, and this is why I say ethics was the wrong word. I don't think we should lump everybody into the same bracket of what is ethical and what isn't. Because somebody's gonna say, like you said in the beginning, but you did qualify it after oh, long range hunting's unethical. Well, my, my pushback right away would be like, okay, what's long range hunting in your book? They say, oh, 400 meters and above. And I said, okay, well, why is 390 not long range hunting? How did you qualify? 400 over 390 or 300 over 250? Like, what did you qualify? And nobody can give me an answer. There is not a single hunter on this planet that can tell me why you're, why long range hunting is unethical in terms of a number. It's just because the maturation of their hunting experience has taken them to a point, saying, I don't like to do that anymore. And just before. Just because you don't like to do it anymore doesn't mean somebody else can't do it.
- [38:58]
D
To follow on from that, I believe as long as you're truthful about how you've hunted that animal and you haven't fabricated a big story behind it, you might have picked it up in thermals and shot it at 700 meters. But don't post it on social media and tell me you spent six hours stalking and crawling through wet grass to go shoot it at 25 meters. As long as you're truthful with the story behind it. We're in Australia where we need to control the numbers.
- [39:34]
C
So it's, it's, it's just ego, right? That's just ego.
- [39:37]
D
It is. And we in Australia, we have a big issue with. Yeah.
- [39:41]
C
And that happens all over the world, unfortunately.
- [39:44]
D
Yeah. So it's.
- [39:49]
C
So, you know, what do we, what, Let me ask this, what do you, what would you do? Like, I think you've already posed the perfect, perfect example, which is these kids, these people coming out to sort of brand new hunters. What do you think is the solution here?
- [40:10]
D
Well, the, the great thing about these, the father and son that are coming up, the father said to me, he goes, I want my son to learn the right way from the start. What is the right way? Is it my way? Is it the spotlighter's way? What is the right way? Like? But this is why I do my little presentation before. On the Friday night, before we get out in the field on the Saturday is I, I give them an overview of what I feel is the right way when it comes to deer, when it comes to fair chase, Whether or not you want to take that on board, that's, that's up to you. I'm not going to belittle you. I'm not going to put you down because that's your chosen style of hunting. But I feel it's getting lost and I want to ensure that like my sons, they will have that opportunity to not agree with my style of hunting. My eldest has just got his firearms license, but he's been deer hunting with me for a couple of years. I've tried to show him it's not all about pulling the trigger, it's not all about killing the animal. In some instances it is. If I go to a property in the farm that says I need these deer or these pigs or these foxes, cold get rid of them. If I don't, there's going to be another bloke behind me that's going to come along, might be a pro shooter or, or a contract shooter and he'll, he'll clean up the numbers. But it's all about what you take away when you walk up onto that animal and you spend that little bit of time. That's, that's, for me, that's one of my favorite parts of the hunt is that little bit of time alone with your fallen quarry and you give the respect to the animal that it deserves if it's a, if you're out there hunting, not culling or number management. So it, for me it's the, the respect that you gotta give the animal that you're, you're chasing. And for deer, for me they, in Australia, they deserve the umost respect because they're a amazing critter especially.
- [42:28]
C
So. Let me ask this question because maybe I didn't quite understand it. Obviously there are rules and regulations, I assume, set by state governments on weapons that can be used to hunt. Right. So, so are thermals and spotlights legal.
- [42:57]
D
Spotlights? No, but they can be used on private. Like I talk about in the public land space. Spotlights are definitely not allowed to be used in New South Wales or Victoria in the public land space, on private land, if it's. You're allowed to use a spotlight if you're out there controlling numbers, thermals. We've had a bit of a change recently where you're allowed to use a handheld thermal in the public land space to detect a wounded animal. Now this was a little bit of a, a point of conjecture because it gives the hunter in the public land space the opportunity to have that thermal in their pocket. If they're out walking before first light, are they tempted to use that thermal in the wrong frame of the use that was recommended? I, I don't even own a therm, but I knew if I putting myself in the position of A new hunter who's been to the same state forest 10 times and hasn't shot a deer. He's gone out, bought his, his handheld thermal on the proviso that it's going to be used to detect the wounded animal after he pulls the trigger. He's walking into a spot, he hears a bit of noise. Is he tempted to pull that thermal out of his pocket and use it as a piece of unfair advantage over that dig? That's where it's, it's a gray area. I don't agree with the new laws being able to have a thermal in a public land space. They have their place in private lands and numbers management, but I don't believe they should be in the pocket of a deer stalker in the public land space.
- [45:00]
C
So yeah, it's, it makes sense, right? It makes sense. It makes sense. You're going to have people that go out hunting and you know, I think I've seen it in, I can't remember where I, I came across somebody using a thermal. I think it was in Europe, you know, just cruising through the forest and throwing up a thermal and, and seeing what's out there. And yeah, it definitely takes away from the whole idea that, you know, you're searching for, chasing, being stealthy, you know, the surprise of coming up on an animal, that kind of stuff.
- [45:40]
D
It sort of takes away that, that element of putting your skill set up against the animals like, because it's like. And, but on the, on the flip side, dermals aren't a 100% guarantee that you're going to be able to find an animal. Plants like lantana, they block thermals really well. I know of an instance with a mate he had, he does a bit of contract killing down on the south coast. He had a call from a farmer saying that he had an injured samba on his property, had been shot by a local with a 2 to 3 and it didn't kill it. So he was asked to go in and find this animal. He took his GSP with him, his dog, his gun dog. Uh, he couldn't find it with the thermals, but his dog wouldn't leave this thicket of lantana. He kept running the thermal over it, could not see anything in there. Dog did not want to leave that, that thicket. So he decided to pick up a rock, through the rock into the, the bunch of lantana. It's made the samba jump up and it was a good stag, a 27 inch stag and he was able to put it out of its.
- [46:52]
C
To, to.
- [46:52]
D
Put it on the ground, put it out of its misery. But if it wasn't for the dog, he wouldn't have known that was in there. But he did have a thermal, quite a high quality thermal. So they're not the be all end all of being able to detect movement in the, in a, in the public land space or in, in the hunting space. And also on the flip side with that is having a thermal in your back pocket in a public land space where there could be other hunters and you pick up the heat signature of another hunter who's sitting behind a tree and you'll picked up a little bit of his leg or his arm or a shoulder and you keep looking at it through the thermals. It's a bit of movement. It's got to be a pig, it's got to be a deer. It can't be anybody else out here. And you're not identifying the cause. It's dark or it's low light, you're not identifying that, that target correctly. You might pull the trigger. Are you shooting someone by accident because you're using your thermals because you wouldn't have picked them up in your binos. So there's that element of safety as well.
- [48:06]
C
Yeah, good point, good point. So, yeah, very good point, very good point. So how would you, how do you mitigate it though? Like, let's just, let's think through, I'm sure you've thought through it like what is this? What's the solution here in terms of like. I think, you know, the, one of the biggest things I heard you say is obviously guys feeling. It's almost the pressure, right? It's the pressure of social media that you need to be, you need to get a big stag on the ground straight away and you need to do whatever it takes. Well, you're not being communicated that you're feeling the pressure yourself to do whatever it takes to achieve this, this level that social media is putting out there, whether it's a thermal, whether it's shooting it at 700 meters as you say, and claiming you shot it with a bow, whatever it is. So what's the solution here, Rick?
- [49:01]
D
It's hard, it's. I don't think there's a one stop solution to the issue. It comes down to education. It comes down to do we divide, do we put state forests, certain state forests that are allowed to use dermals, we allowed to go into, into state forests and use a spotlight in certain areas where they'll block out all other hunters? I don't know what the actual, the method is to the madness. It does come down to education, I think, and it's just getting lost. There's no, not, not too many organizations that are pushing for it to become like, that's how it should be hunted. But that, like you said before, what is actual ethical hunting? It's what, what I class as ethical hunting is different to what the bloke down the road classes that had. So I don't have the answer to that question, Robbie, but I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing and trying to not so much push my rhetorical, but educate people to have the similar mindset to what I have. And that's the great thing about.
- [50:25]
C
Yeah, and I think that's, I think that's the key. I think that's the key. I think the key is for people to put, you know, and I'm, I see it all the time. You know, I live in that social media space, literally, dare I say, 24 7. I sleep very little sometimes. And when, when America's awake, when America's asleep, Australia's awake. All right, So I see it all the time. And I, you know, I follow a bunch of people in Australia that are doing great things. You know, they're showing amazing dishes that come from venison, right? The, the, the, the meat element of it. I follow guys that fucking hunt hard in Australia and they don't, they don't just show the kill, they show how bloody hard they work to get to that, to get to that animal. And I think it's just, in my, in my opinion, it's a peer pressure scenario. Right. And I've seen it as we've grown, you know, now the Origins foundation, as we've grown our social media presence, you know, and I'll use just one example. We don't obviously show hunting. Thank you. We don't just show hunting. We, we, we show. And we don't show kill shots or anything like that. But my example would be, like, how I interact with people online, the way that I comment, the way that we dispel myths and talk about truth and whatnot. And it's very gentlemanly and it's very, you know, you can slap my cheek and I'm going to turn the other cheek and you can slap that cheek too, kind of scenario. And that demeanor, that character of how we respond and how we look and how we feel online is. I'm starting to see it all over. And it's really a peer pressure system that, like, oh, that seems to work. For him, maybe I should respond a little bit more gently and a little bit more kindly and then just send them over to him once I get frustrated.
- [52:26]
D
In that realm of social media, you've got the guys who are quite prevalent and are pushing out the YouTube videos and all that. They have the pressure of having to continue with the high levels of content. And I know for a fact I can go out maybe three or four trips and not shoot a deer, or might be six months before I shoot a deer. But I've been seeing them to be able to get that level of content, to keep pushing it out to the social media realms. There's that pressure as well on those guys who have had a lot of success, they've got some good followers and then they might hit a bit of a dry patch. Are they going to go do something outside of the realms of their normal ethical sides of hunting to get that content? Because seems like there's a lot of people out there posting YouTube and, and whatnot and are they going about above their normal levels of fair chase to gain that, that, to continue that, that following, to keep that content up? It's a question you gotta ask as well, because we have a certain number of high profile hunters in Australia. They're very prevalent on social media and they're always putting out content. And some of it you can see is a little bit dubious. Some of it is great content. So you gotta have a look at that side of the argument as well.
- [53:53]
C
No, look, totally right. It's, you know, again, but it's, you know, I think it's a, it's a peer pressure scenario that we, we live in a society today that somebody can make a living off of hunting. Now we, we can set up a whole other podcast about whether or not that's, that's ethical. Okay, but you have a bunch of commercial businesses in the hunting space that sell a bunch of hunting gear. And for them to be able to do that, you need a market that you hunt and you have to market that. Your equipment kills things in our hunting space. So there is a niche being created by the industry that is creating these, you know, these guys that hunt for a living. It's, you know, it's part of it. We're not getting rid of it. And all we can hope is that they do it in the right way, that they don't cross boundaries. But we know that there are celebrities, that's happened in the States many, many times that these big guys that have TV shows and they get, you know, they've got A big federal investigation that closed on them and sent them to.
- [55:04]
D
Jail because they've got to maintain that content. They've got to maintain that following. They're going to maintain the materials for their sponsors.
- [55:12]
C
Yeah, yeah. They've got the pressure. The pressure's on them and.
- [55:18]
D
You can see and like. But. And then you go on the other side of the coin with the, the conservation of, of hunting is the thing that's protecting the animals. Like, I'm not going to go into too much depths in regards to. I've seen it. I had my first trip to South Africa this year and it was. I, I had a preconception of what hunting in South Africa was and when I got over there, it was completely flipped on its head. Because in Australia we all were always led to believe that everything in South Africa is all about high fence hunting and everything's easy and you just go into a paddock and you shoot the animals and you take your photos with it. But I was shown it's not that easy even if it is a fence property. And I was only hunting on properties over 17,000 acres. And we're still having issues trying to find the animals purely because the amount of rain they had, the thickness of the COVID So we spent a few days just trying to locate animals, let alone have an opportunity to be able to shoot one. So I had the opportunity to be able to test my ethical beliefs when it comes to hunting in South Africa. And I told. Because I'm doing a bit of consulting for these, these outfitters, trying to send Aussie guys over there to experience it because I think every hunter should needs to experience Africa. It's absolutely amazing over there. But I, and I told them so I don't want that easy hunting. When we're driving around in the truck, we spot the animal, we pull up, you get out or you take the shot from the truck. I want to be able to put my skill set against that animal. And they were more than happy to oblige. And that's exactly how they, they run their outfit. So it was good to have that experience. And I really want to get back over there and get some more Aussie guys over there and experience it as well. Because, yeah. Breaks place. I really love it. Exactly right. And probably the final thoughts on the matter is it's all what you feel is being ethical and what you're taking away from the hunt. If you can sit back at home, have that trophy on the wall and go, I put on a great hunt. It was me against that animal that's what I believe is the ethical side of my argument. The true essence of ethical and fair chase hunting is how you feel and how it sits with you. If you've given that animal a fair opportunity to evade your skill set, that's that for me is the ethical side of hunting 100%.
- [57:52]
C
Well said, buddy. Well said. Are you going to be at the.
- [57:57]
D
Wild Deer Expo this year? Hopefully I'll be on a stall trying to get the air let's get a selfie together. Hey, thank you. Congratulations again.
- [58:08]
C
Yeah, I told Sean, Sean, Sean Lynch Doggan Dog and gun Coffee. He was like, do you want to talk on stage and how long do you want to talk? I said, sean, I've been interacting in the Australian space for five years. I've never met anyone. I'm about to meet everyone. I'm not going to have time to.
- [58:28]
D
Talk a few some chats and a few selfies. But yeah, I'm sure there's plenty of guys out here want to want to get a selfie with and have a chat and pick your brain about a few things. Congratulations again on the congratulations. It's going to be amazing organization. That's amazing you guys. You do a lot for our our hunting community, not just in Australia, but worldwide and it's something I look up to, mate.
- [58:56]
C
Thank you buddy. Appreciate you a lot. Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening as always, leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.
- [59:13]
E
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- [59:45]
D
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E
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