The Origins Foundation Podcast – Episode 594

Guest: Pieter Swart (President, South African Taxidermy and Tannery Association)
Topic: Delisting Giraffes From CITES
Date: September 18, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode brings together host Robbie and guest Pieter Swart to discuss the effort spearheaded by SATA (South African Taxidermy and Tannery Association) to delist the southern giraffe from CITES Appendix II, effectively removing international trade restrictions on the species. The conversation centers on the population health of southern giraffes, the mechanics and politics of the CITES process, the misinterpretation of trade/export data, and the role of consumptive use in conservation.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction to Pieter Swart and SATA

• Pieter Swart’s Background

  • Pieter clarifies he is a businessman running a taxidermy factory, not a taxidermist by training.
    [04:08]
    • Quote: “I've got a factory that we are processing all the different things and doing the taxidermy work.” (Pieter Swart, 04:08)
  • President of SATA since 2016.

• Why Giraffes?

  • SATA spearheaded a scientific proposal for the southern giraffe to be delisted from CITES protections, after the species’ population demonstrated strong growth.
    [06:09]
    • Quote: “We were able... to submit the proposal to delisted [the] southern giraffe.” (Pieter Swart, 06:32)

2. What is CITES and the COP?

• CITES Explained

  • The Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species regulates cross-border trade in flora and fauna to prevent overexploitation.
    [10:28]
  • Countries meet every three years at the Conference of Parties (COP) to review trade rules, uplist, or downlist species.

• One Country, One Vote—A Flaw?

  • Every signatory country has one vote, regardless of whether the species in question is present in their territory.
    • Host's Take:
      • “South Africa … has a vote. And countries ... [that] don't have giraffes [also] have a vote.” (Host, 12:12)
    • This creates political hurdles; e.g., the EU votes as a block and is hard to persuade.
    • Quote: “That is one of the drawbacks of CITES…” (Pieter Swart, 13:01)

3. Giraffe Species, Listing, and Population Trends

• There Are Four Giraffe Species:

  1. Northern
  2. Maasai
  3. Reticulated
  4. Southern

• Current Status: All listed on CITES Appendix II, which permits trade but adds export obstacles. [14:35]

• Population Numbers (Estimates): [15:46–16:25]

  • Northern: ~7,300
  • Maasai: ~43,900
  • Reticulated: ~21,000
  • Southern: Just under 69,000

• Population Trends:

  • “All of them are increasing in the numbers. The Maasai is only one that is stable, but the rest are all increasing.” (Pieter Swart, 16:29)

4. The Delisting Proposal: Rationale & Evidence

• Southern Giraffe Population Health

  • South Africa, Namibia, and Zimbabwe jointly support delisting due to population growth and sustainable management.
  • [17:22]
    • Quote: "We want to use them without all the hiccups and obstacles that CITES is ... putting in the way." (Pieter Swart, 17:26)

• Trade Data Analysis (2019–present):

  • 95% of giraffe exports originate from southern Africa; most exports are bones, not hunting trophies.
    [18:17–19:59]
  • Misrepresentation in data: thousands of exported bones are counted as individual animals.
    • “...the people that was animal rights ... said, they look at the figures and said but there was over 20,000 animals being killed. But that’s not true.” (Pieter Swart, 21:28)

• Scientific Criteria

  • Delisting proposal meets all CITES requirements; the current offtake is <5% of the population, and the population is increasing.
    [28:50]

5. Challenges and Misconceptions in the CITES Process

• Export Data Confusion
  • CITES database tracks each exported item (trophy, bone, skin) as if from a different animal, inflating the perception of animal offtake.
    • Pieter emphasizes the need for database reforms to reflect true trade figures.
      • [23:15]: “They are aware that it is not [a] perfect system … we have bring it to their attention.”
  • Host: “There’s certainly a loophole there or a fault in the database…” [24:36]

6. Next Steps: The Road to the 2025 CITES COP

• Proposal Submission and International Lobbying
  • Proposal officially with CITES. SATA and partners now campaign globally, even focusing on small states like Mauritius and working through international organizations.
  • EU block is a tough challenge as they decide their votes in advance.
    • [25:21]: “Now we have to get the message out to the different countries all over the world…”
  • CITES Secretariat will release their own recommendation 90 days before the COP.
    • [26:23]
    • Final decision by a 2/3 vote at COP in Uzbekistan, November 2025.

7. The Role of Animal Rights and International Politics

• Science vs. Politics

  • Host: “It's all politics at this stage. Unfortunately it's science doesn't drive this cart.” [27:37]
  • Only reason to vote ‘No’ would be political/ideological opposition to consumptive use, not scientific basis.
    • “Why did you vote no? … You just do not believe in consumptive use of wildlife….” (Host, 30:37)

• Resource Imbalances

  • Animal rights organizations have huge budgets and ability to influence; sustainable use coalitions operate on limited funds.
    • [31:10]: “We are fighting a fight against a huge organizations … over billion dollar income … [while] we… fight[] from our own pockets.” (Pieter Swart, 31:10)

8. Conservation Impact of Sustainable Use

• Positive Effects of Consumptive Use
  • Sustainable hunting contributes both funds and incentives for conservation and community support.
    • “We are using these things and it's providing money and meat and everything for the communities … It helps to carry on.” (Pieter Swart, 28:50)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the CITES voting mechanism:
  “That is one of the drawbacks of CITES is that the countries that … do have the different species, … they've only got one vote. … So … you need 120 plus countries to vote in favor … that's where most of our problems occur.”
  (Pieter Swart, 13:01)

• On science and politics:
  “Unfortunately it's science doesn't drive this cart. You wish it did, but it doesn't.”
  (Host, 27:37)

• On population sustainability:
  “If you look at all the different criteria … the giraffe … specifically the southern giraffe … There's too many … we are not killing them all … we are using these things and it's providing money and meat and everything for the communities … It helps to carry on.”
  (Pieter Swart, 28:50)

• On motivation behind opposition:
  “… the only reason … is the little thing called the animal rights lobby … their voice is extremely vocal and strong and they have political power.”
  (Host, 29:51)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Intro & Pieter Swart’s introduction: 03:20 – 05:01
• What is CITES and how does it work?: 10:28 – 12:12
• Species and population trends: 14:35 – 16:29
• Delisting proposal and rationale: 17:22 – 19:59
• Export data confusion & database limitations: 21:28 – 24:36
• Process for proposal at CITES COP: 25:00 – 26:23
• Science vs. politics in COP decision: 27:37 – 29:51
• Concluding thoughts & advocacy: 30:37 – 32:23

Tone & Language

The conversation is direct, knowledgeable, and advocacy-focused. Pieter Swart’s Afrikaans accent is noted, but his delivery is clear, with a factual, occasionally impassioned tone. The host is supportive, pragmatic, and at times pointed, especially about the intersection of science and international politics in conservation.

Final Thoughts

This episode offers a concise yet thorough breakdown of the southern giraffe's CITES journey, highlighting both population success and bureaucratic challenges. Listeners unfamiliar with the politics of conservation gain insight into why delisting a thriving species is nevertheless an uphill battle, and the underlying conflicts between data-driven management and ideological opposition in international wildlife trade policy. It’s an informative listen for conservationists, hunters, and policymakers alike.