Loading summary

Transcript64 lines

[00:00]
A
Want to plan your next fishing trip without the hassle? FishingBooker.com is the best way to find and book a fishing charter anywhere in the world. Whether you're chasing trophy fish or just looking for a family day on the water, fishingbooker makes it simple, fast and secure. With thousands of experienced guides, verified reviews and 247 customer support, FishingBooker takes the guesswork out of planning. Visit fishingbooker.com and book your trip today. FishingBooker Fishing trips made easy Join us.
[00:30]
B
At a Friends of NRA event where freedom, fun and firearms come together like nowhere else. With more than 600 events held across the country, there's always one happening near you. From exciting games to exclusive auctions featuring one of a kind firearms and gear you won't find anywhere else. Whether you're a lifelong hunter, a competitive shooter, or simply passionate about defending freedom, there is a seat for you. Visit friendsofnra.org to find an event near you. And get ready for a night you won't forget.
[01:00]
C
Mark hall is the director of Wild Origins Canada. And on this podcast we're going to talk about a project that he is about to stand up called Project Grizzly Balance. Grizzly bear hunting has been banned for quite some time in this province of British Columbia and Mark lives in the province of British Columbia and he has started to interact with, with first nations and truly to get a grip on what's happening because of the ban. So what you're going to hear from Mark is this idea of balance, that banning is one extreme, you know, all out hunting is another extreme. We need balance, we need balance for wildlife. You're seeing that all over the world. Polar bears, elephants, wolves, whatever. But in British Columbia specifically, grizzlies need to be managed. There needs to be a balance to them. And so Mark and Wild Origins Canada is essentially sitting on a path as a project to really claim back the narrative around grizzly bears hunting and the need for management, the need for balance for this specific species. So enjoy. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting.
[02:23]
D
It brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals. How do I start it? Brittany?
[02:33]
C
My name is.
[02:35]
E
Does my hair look okay?
[02:37]
C
My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the caught of me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for A non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter. Well, it's been a little bit since we've had Mark hall on. Mark hall now is the director of Wild Origins Canada. Has taken big strides in Canada, has grown a following, has grown a profile. Super proud of what is happening in Canada and we haven't had Mark on the podcast for quite some time. But he said, hey, I want to come on the podcast because I've got some things that I want to push forward, specifically some projects that I want to push forward. And I said, okay, well are any of them controversial? He says everything is controversial in what I do, that's for sure. Mark, welcome back, dude. It's been a while.
[03:52]
D
Thanks.
[03:53]
C
It has been for those that may not remember who you are.
[03:57]
D
Yeah, well, you gave the introduction. Director of Wild Origins Canada Foundation. So we have a non profit, federally registered corporation, not for profit in Canada set up the Wild Origins Canada foundation and we're growing that we will become a registered charity. Like you have the 501C down down in the US we have charitable tax status. So we're working towards that. And yeah, we are growing our voice. We're you know, I guess becoming an, an authority, a trusted source of, of sustainable use information in Canada and there isn't anything in this country that we won't wade into that are incredibly political, tricky and prickly issues a lot around indigenous conflicts in Manitoba. There's blockades happening, hunting seasons coming up where you know, know we're covering that, that you take heat for that. And this project, Project Grizzly Balance in Western Canada, it is probably one of the, the next big prickly issues about sustainable use and the conservation of, of grizzly bears. And we're wading into that sandbox in a big way.
[05:22]
C
So Project Grizzly Balance is the project we're going to talk about today. Give us a little bit of history on like what has happened, what has transpired to get us to today. And then I think the next question after that we can, that I'll ask is, you know, so why, why are we deciding to do this now? So let's just talk about the history. Grizzly bear hunting has been banned in British Columbia, right?
[05:50]
D
Yes, it was banned in British Columbia and also in Alberta. They were.
[05:57]
C
Did it happen at the same time?
[05:59]
D
No, different, different years. I think Alberta was, I'm just trying to remember now before British Columbia.
[06:06]
C
Okay, interesting.
[06:07]
D
2,010 some somewhere in there, British Columbia was 2016, just after a provincial election. And then it kind of came in full force. I think it was 2017 or 2018. So it's been like you know, a decade in in B.C. and more so in, in Alberta. But you can still hunt grizzly bears in the Yukon, in the Northwest Territories and in a little corner of Nunavut territory, but not in British Columbia or Alberta. First nations can hunt grizzly bears in all, all of the provinces and territories because they have constitutionally protected rights to continue their way of life in hunting, which includes grizzly bears. Unfortunately they've, you know, lost their ability to manage them as a predator in some places because licensed hunters are removed. Their outfitting industries, you know, those that were had outfitting businesses or guides were impacted.
[07:11]
C
Look guys, I'm a hunter, right? And when I go hunting, I like to figure out how to get my trophies back home as expeditiously as possible. Well, you don't have to look much further than Safari Specialty Importers. We know that trophy importation can be quite a headache. That's why Safari Specialty Importer strives to make it as easy and hassle free as possible. They have access to a bonded warehouse, you won't be charged storage fees and you get a dedicated team that's readily available and will update you at every step in the process. They'll even go one step further. Safari Specialty Importers is working with us and they are going to donate $100 from every shipment that they work with to conservation projects that include anti poaching, community development and wildlife conservation. At the end of the day, choose to spend your money with a team that's dedicated to you and is dedicated to helping show how hunting is a great conservation model. Hassle free logistics, fuel and conservation go with Safari Specialty importers. Hunting and shooting suppressed have become the norm in over 42 states where suppressors are legal. The growing popularity of suppressors has even led to legislative changes. You might have heard some things around the big beautiful bill, right? Including the reduction of the NFA mandated tax stamp. Before you used to pay 200 bucks and now starting January 1st of 2026, the tax stamp is going to zero. However, why wait until January 1st? Our partners silence Essential great friends of ours, they're going to pay your tax stamp right now. So if you buy a banished suppressor or other popular brands that essentially are qualifying purchases, Silence Essential is going to cover the cost of the tax stamp. They're going to save you 200 bucks right now. So make sure you don't miss out. Shooting suppressed. If you're in the market for a new suppressor, Whether it's your first or your next one, visit silenceessential.com or call them 866-811-6536. Silence Essential is going to cover your tax stamp right now. They're going to simplify the submission process and deliver your suppressor right to your door. Don't wait. Get your suppressor right now and start shooting. Suppress this season, Bushnell is eager to help you get set up for conservation success. That's right. They want to help you. The conservation and research community is dominated by good people doing good things and investing significant time and effort for the benefit of habitat and the species. So what do you need to do? Pretty simple. Send us your conservation story and or your conservation wish. Could be managing whitetails, could be understanding your environment or species or something else related to conservation. What would you be able to do if you had a great trail camera setup? We will select the best story every other month and send you a camera bundle. Cell camera, normal SD camera, SD cards, as well as optics. Everything you need to get set up for success. I can't wait to see what you submit. You can email us, DM us, message us, whatever you want. We are not hard to find. Good luck.
[10:23]
D
You know, so. So to really weigh back up, the interesting thing about this project, which is, is kind of sort of coming full circle for me. The reason I'm sitting here is because of the grizzly bear ban in British Columbia and that this is where it all started for me.
[10:41]
C
Really?
[10:42]
D
Because when the conversation has happened, was.
[10:45]
C
It hunter, conservationist, an existing entity before the grizzly bear band?
[10:50]
D
This is why it came about actually.
[10:52]
C
Wow.
[10:53]
D
So when the debate came, so, so leading up to a provincial election in British Columbia, there was a whole bunch of controversy in the media, you know, about grizzly bear hunting and trophy hunting and you know, these negative stories that were front page news, you know, this, this sort of thing. And it was really starting to, to ramp up. There had been some conflicts between a bear viewing operation and the guiding operation on coastal British Columbia. And it was just, it was, it was bubbling up when the, when it was coming up to the 2016 election, the leader of the NDP party in British Columbia basically put it into their election platform that if they were elected, they would ban the grizzly bear hunt. And then, so then everything kind of blew up and all these narratives started happening and I was on the pulse of that. I was, I was watch, watching all of this and something Very interesting. Started to come to light for me. And it was one hunters in British Columbia were getting slammed and, you know, painted and mud slapped on them. They were reaching out to celebrities in the US saying, you need to help us. You need to wade into this. In particular through social media. I saw a lot of people reaching out to Stephen Rinella. They said, like, hey, Steve, you came up to British Columbia with Cal. You know, you would try to get a grizz bear hunt, you know, try to get yourself a grizzly bear, like, help us cover the story, like say something. And it was just, it was crickets. And I really realized that Canada lacked a voice. So there was some very powerful voices, you know, happening in the States, internationally, and, and people that were becoming, you know, very recognized. But it wasn't Canada. Canada wasn't their history, Canada wasn't their culture. Canada wasn't where they could only hunt or what they cared most about. And I realized that Canada was lacking that voice. And so I started writing and I started wading into the grizzly bear issue, saying like, okay, hang on a second here, folks. Let's back up. Let's look at the science challenge. Some of these narratives that were out there and that led to the hunter Conservationist podcast. The very first podcast, episode one was a friend of ours, Dr. Clayton Lamb, who was a grizzly bear researcher. And we kind of dove into the whole nuance of what he had, was learning through his PhD research and kind of grizzly bears moving into human settlement areas basically was kind of what he. He dug into. And. And we were off to the races and opened up the scope and we're covering everything in Canada and here I am sitting here almost 10 years later.
[13:49]
C
That is an amazing story. I didn't even know that story, man. That's crazy. Episode number one was about grizzly bears.
[13:56]
D
Yes. Yep. And so. And episode 100 was also about grizzly bears, which was with Dr. Bruce McClellan, who was.
[14:06]
C
Is Dr. Clayton Lamb still around?
[14:08]
D
Oh, yeah, yeah, he's. He's still around. Lives both.
[14:11]
C
Is he still a grizzly babologist?
[14:12]
D
He does grizzly bear. He's now got like numerous projects on the grow on the go, endangered caribou conservation work. He's working in an indigenous led caribou recovery project in northern British Columbia. He's still. I can get into this. He is running one of the only grizzly bear studies in southern British Columbia because the government got out of the business of doing research when it banned hunting because there was no need to worry about grizzly bears. Now that the greatest threat to the species which was removed and, and it went away. But episode 100 was with Dr. Bruce McClellan. He was probably one of the most recognized and respected grizzly bear scientists in the world. He was a government researcher. He worked for the government. He researched grizzly bears. He grew up with grizzly bears. He raised his kids in the Flathead Valley in southern British Columbia up against the Montana border which at the time had the highest density of grizzly bears in all of North America. His kids grew up in that. His daughter is now a grizzly bear researcher. Dr. Michelle McMullen had her on the show. But doing grizzly bear research as a government person, you know, you know they only work a couple of hours a day and you know and all this kind of stuff and they don't have a lot of accountability. But Bruce was a scientist. Bruce was first and foremost for grizzly bears for sustainable use. And he published peer reviewed science as a government researcher. And that's almost unheard of here, not unheard of in the US A lot of government biologists publish and that's cool. We locked it up here. So he was episode 100 and we dove into grizzly bear hunting and grizzly bear conservation and management.
[16:10]
C
Is he still a governmental scientist today?
[16:12]
D
He retired. And this was one of the consequences of banning grizzly bear hunting that I, I mentioned in British Columbia is the general thought within the anti hunting community because we have a huge philanthropic organization here in B.C. that's powering the, the stop the hunt type thing or don't ever bring it back. And within government that once hunting was removed, there wasn't a lot of need for grizzly bear research. It was, it was, they're fine now. And when Dr. McClellan, Tony Hamilton, when those fellows retired, that was it. The government did not replace them. There were four during hunting of grizzly bears there were four scientists in British Columbia researching grizzly bear populations in different regions. Because we're big. Bruce was like the eminent authority of the interior grizzly Rocky Mountains, southern parts of B.C. and some of the other fellows, you know, specialized in, in other areas and we're now down to one. And, and he's actually by his doctorate and thesis, he's not actually a grizzly bear scientist but he is the large carnivore scientist for the government. One, one person for all of the British Columbia. And if you remember, if you know, you remember if you took British Columbia and superimposed it on the US it would stretch from the international boundary between Seattle and And Vancouver all the way to the Mexican border and take in all of the western states. That that is how big British Columbia is one large carnivore specialist of which grizzly bears are one of the largest, you know, conservation species. And, and that was a consequence government led research. None. Like I said, there is a couple.
[18:12]
C
Of people fall under that carnivore biologist or do they have a separate black bear biologist?
[18:17]
D
Nope. So he, that that one person has, has everything. Bulls, grizzly bears, cougars and oh my gosh, a black bears. And that's it. And it's all policy driven. So the province supports some of the outside grizzly bear research that's being done like the Dr. Clayton Lamb is still working on, but he's not leading the science, the province is not leading the science anymore. And this is one of the reasons I'm getting into this project Grizzly Balance in a big way is I feel watching the pulse of what's happening in Alberta, what's happening in British Columbia and I'm worried about the ban grizzly bear hunting campaigns in the Yukon and the Northwest Territories getting hold is I feel since the end of hunting, since the end of sustainable use of grizzly bears that people and grizzly bears are worse off. We have a worse situation now in western Canada because we don't have sustainable use hunting as a component of grizzly bear conservation. There are populations that are exploding in Alberta and northern British Columbia. There are places where they potentially could disappear because they're suffering genetic bottlenecks, lack of immigration, emigration out of the population, some very serious stuff. But it's a gigantic, you know, landmass where grizzly bears are. You got to manage them on a population, by population basis and they're, and they're all different. But as a general, you know, overarching thing, what I'm seeing is rural people are being dismissed. Their concerns, their fears, what they're living with are being dismissed because the narratives are being controlled in British Columbia, they're being controlled in Alberta. Folks that stand up for some level of sustainable use and citizen, you know, authorized, you know, hunting, they're being dismissed, they're being silenced, they're being challenged. We do, you know, we get it whenever we wade into it and we'll probably get a lot more of it. And I think grizzly bears are worse off because there is no sustainable use. So like I mentioned before one, there's very little science being done on it.
[20:46]
C
Anymore because, well, it ties to the value argument, right?
[20:49]
D
It does.
[20:50]
C
At the highest level, the government doesn't value grizzly bears anymore. So they're not putting any money behind investing in research anymore. It has no value to them.
[20:59]
D
It. Exactly. And, and you know, and, and I think there's just a lot of misunderstanding, you know, even at the highest levels in government or in politics because they're being controlled by this, by this anti hunting narrative. What to believe and what not to believe is folks at the highest level of policy making in, you know, British Columbia believe that hunting was the single greatest threat to grizzly bears. And once you remove that, they're good. Park it. Check mark grizzly bears. Okay, let's move on to something else. Jobs, economy, you know, whatever we got elected based on, on that platform and that's just not true. So here's an example of how this is impacting grizzly bears. Grizzly bear conservation itself is. The North Cascade Grizzly Bear Population Management Unit is in southwestern British Columbia. Coastal mountain area grizzly bear population. They overlap into the Cascades of Washington which everybody knows. That's where there's a big momentum gaining for a grizzly bear reintroduction project. There's a first nation in British Columbia.
[22:11]
C
How long it spilled over already.
[22:13]
D
There's so few bears.
[22:15]
C
Oh there's, there's unlike the, unlike the other opposite kind where opposite side where it's close to the Montana border, you've got the highest density of beds.
[22:25]
D
Those are literally on the opposite sides of the province. So let's just for you know, folks in the States listening, just, just north of, you know, kind of north essentially.
[22:36]
C
Is there a continental divide that comes into B.C.
[22:39]
D
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So you've got coastal mountains, sort of the interior Selkirk Purcell Mountain range in the Rocky Mountains. So grizzly bears are doing very well in the Rocky Mountain region. They're doing very well in the north more wilderness areas and in the southeast of the more populated areas, the big, the big centers. So, so any this North Cascade population management unit transboundary, they've recognized on the US side that grizzly bears are at risk of disappearing. They have identified that they're at risk of disappearing in British Columbia, the northern extent of their range, because they're suffering from genetic bottleneck. And what that means is there's just a very small genetic population of bears that's grow slowly. The number of bears are shrinking and the genetic pool is shrinking with that. There's no major movement of bears coming in and out of this pop population. They're not connecting with populations to the north and, and to the east. And so that's death that's the death nail for any animal. Population is dwindling in numbers. Males and females have trouble finding each other and they're traveling more. They're getting run over on, on railroad tracks and whatnot. So this, this is something major. This requires a lot of science. What's going on? Like we got to be on the pulse. We should have half a dozen research projects on the go. We should have some recovery targets. We should have some clear, identiful identifiable actions of what's actually happening. And, and like, let's get recovering these bears. They banned the hunt. Almost 10 years went by and they finally released a draft grizzly bear conservation management plan for the province a year ago. And that population management unit has no firm commitments of things like science funding targets. Like what population do they actually want? There's nothing, it's just a bunch of vague motherhood statements of like, you know, oh, we want to see like a self sustaining population of grizzly bears in the North Cascades and we want to invest in their conservation and blah, blah, blah. And it's like great, like put some things on paper so people know what you're doing and how that's going to lead to recovery. And I feel that has been a consequence of banning the hunt is there's no firm targets, there's no data, there's no science, there's nothing for anybody to go on other than just these, these wishy washy, you know, broad motherhood statements. And as you know, a management plan has got to come down to who's doing what, when and why are we doing this. Let's do it. Is it working? Yes or no. And adjust as we go. Are the bears reaching?
[25:37]
C
How did they get so isolated? How did the. It's, how long are they.
[25:42]
D
It's a combination of geography like mountains.
[25:46]
C
They always been isolated or was there immigration? Immigration that just got cut off through.
[25:52]
D
Yeah, I mean through development. So on the BC side, so your major highways, your major cities, you know, to the east and to the north and big recreational developments and your major highway corridors and just some really, really ugly, you know, Rocky Mountain, you know, rocky terrain, coastal mountains. And you know, these bears probably at the best of times, you know, maybe mingled more with the coastal populations, but the coastal areas got taken over by the metropolis of, of Vancouver and, and, and all that. And, and so that's it. There they were. Combination of geography and human development of the landscape put them into this little compartment where there's very, very little mixing. So that's where we got to come in to putting collars on bears and understanding their movement. Where's their corridors? How you know, why are bears not getting from, from A to B? What's in their way? Start looking at you know, highway overpasses and connective corridors and you know all of those types of conservation strategies. When we had hunting, yes this they're case they're a sensitive species, they're slow reproducers. We have to be very careful when we hunt.
[27:07]
C
Hunting, you're about to call them a K selected species. Explain to everyone what is a K selected species.
[27:12]
D
So a K selected species, I'll get a sorry for the science stuff, nerd out on it. A K selected species is an animal who's basically their reproduction rates are very slow. They will have their young in tow for a long period of time. They have very few offspring, you know one or two kind of thing and numbers of years to raise those offspring and it take and their, their, their growth, their maturity to when that animal first is able to reproduce itself. So in biology nothing really happens in a population until an offspring is able to replace itself. And until you reach that point your population hasn't done anything. For grizzly bears it's about 10 years. So when that cub's born, if it's a female it's going to take 10 years before she produces her own litter. So she has to survive and her offspring have to survive so she replaces herself and we can say yes there has been an incremental increase in the population. What's happening in southern British Columbia is almost you know, there was a meta study done. So so anyways K selected species, slow reproducers, long, very sensitive, long lived, very sensitive to human caused mortality. So it's not just hunting. If you're running them over with cars, if you're running them over with trains, if you're killing them left, right and left. Because of human conflict their populations can easily be put into a spiral and the animals can be easily put into an endangered or a recovery status type thing. Hunting. When you fit hunting into that of a K selected species you gotta heavily rely on data. You better be on top of your population, you better be monitoring them. You better know every single animal, especially females that are run over on a highway, what their age was, you know, what population they were from and then what can be safely allocated to sustainable use hunting and, and you got to stay on top of that like it's in British Columbia they worked on about a 5 to 6% human caused mortality because of the sensitivity of grizzly bears. BC had world class Science. We were doing an amazing job at blending hunting into this total human caused mortality. Sometimes hunting seasons were shut down sometimes two weeks before my brother in law's clients came in who booked a hunt two years before he gets a phone call saying hey, we looked at the data, too many females got killed in your zone last year. Your permits canceled for this string this spring, two weeks before his hunter showed up. But that's how sensitive, you know, managing a case selected species is. And when we had hunting, we had the rigor of the science, we had the data. We were looking at this combination of overall human cause mortality and adjusting the one that we control which was, was, was hunting. When hunting was banned, no research, we lost all that data. We lost having our finger on the pulse of what these grizzly bear populations were doing. And that is showing up as a consequence to populations like the North Cascade grizzly bear population. There's no science, nobody knows what's, what's going on. We don't even know the numbers, we don't know where they're moving yet. The best they can do now is they don't have data driven objectives. They just have, you know, objectives that look good on paper, you know, to the public. Oh yeah, no, that's a field feel good statement, right? That's not going to work for grizzly bears. So, you know, part of what I'm developing and leading into Project Grizzly Balance is coming at it from the heart of grizzly bear conservation. Yes, they are a sensitive species. There's a lot of different dynamics going on and I do fundamentally believe that sustainable use can fit into the big picture of grizzly bear conservation. And what I'm seeing in the loss of science, the loss of social tolerance, the increasing conflict, the increasing human caused mortality and no sustainable use is part of that whatsoever. I am equally worried about the future of grizzly bears, especially in the southern parts of Alberta and British Columbia as I am about the opportunity for hunters to be able to have an experience hunting a grizzly bear. It's equally important to me.
[32:10]
C
Are the first nations undertaking any signs?
[32:15]
D
There is a scientific project that was just kicked off a month and a bit ago in a wilderness area in northern British Columbia. It's a collaborative effort. The funding is coming from Safari Club International Foundation. They are working with the tall 10 central government and their wildlife biologists. Because the initial question, the initial hey, we need to know what's going on is coming from the tall 10 people and the outfitters up there, they're very concerned that this burgeoning grizzly bear population in northern British Columbia is having a significant impact on caribou and moose, which is their primary sustenance species. Outfitters rely on them and so they've matched up with Safari Club International foundation, they're putting collars. It's a collaborative, you know, SIF and Tall Tan Central Government Research Project. So that's about kind of the only one that I know of. Yeah, yeah.
[33:24]
C
So in your Project Grizzly Balance. Yeah, in your Project Grizzly Balance, you know, what, what are some of the things that you want to implement?
[33:32]
D
So, you know, the, the overarching premises is I want to balance the narrative about grizzly bears and about the role of sustainable use as a part of grizzly bear conservation because that narrative has shifted away from that. Like I said at the start, what is being left out of the broader picture of the conservation of grizzly bears are the voices and the on the ground experience of the people living closest to grizzly bears. Ranchers, farmers, hunters, trappers, outfitters, First Nations. They're all being marginalized because this is a group of people that are advocating for some level of sustainable use back into the mix. So one of my first and foremost objectives is I want to start champion those voices and letting the masses hear what these people have to say because they're being squashed and silenced and bullied and threatened with lawsuits to keep the hell quiet. Like that's, that's literally, you know, what, what's happening in British Columbia. There is a philanthropist who is a, made his wealth from home construction in, you know, the, the recreational area of the Whistler Blackcomb resort area outside of Vancouver. He created a foundation called the Grizzly Bear Foundation. Super well funded, man. They got staff and they can do all kinds of stuff. They're basically so embedded in the government controlling the narrative about grizzly bear management in British Columbia that the government has actually handed them the development of the policy for the management and conservation of grizzly bear. So you have an outside agency, organization writing public policy. That's leaving out most of the voices in the province. So I want to interject ourself back into that. In Alberta you have a much more favorable political climate because the government there and Minister Todd Lohan are doing some good things on the grizzly bear sustainable use front. They are, you know, more pro sustainable use. However, there is a large organization in Alberta, again well funded, from a philanthropist couple, I believe they're from Calgary, that are behind a foundation called the Exposed Wildlife Conservancy and they dominate the narrative in Alberta. About grizzly bear, grizzly bear conservation and constantly attacking the government, the minister and hunters over any inkling of reintroducing hunting as, as a management tool in the Yukon. There's a foundation up there that's starting to push the anti hunting narrative. I don't think they have the big, you know, philanthropic power behind them yet. And so it's just a matter of time or someone else comes out of the woodwork or one of these organizations in B.C. or Alberta saying we're going to expand our mission and here's millions of dollars. Get the grizzly bear hunt canceled in the Yukon and the Northwest Territories. And then my fear is where the balance is being maintained in those territories. You're going to ban grizzly bear hunting and then adopt all the problems that we're having in Alberta and British Columbia, people and grizzly bears will be worse off. So. So I want to get those voices back out there. I want to get into developing a documentary film which spotlights those rural voices, those rural realities of living, you know, with grizzly bears or a series of documentaries. They're powerful medium for us at Origins foundation, you know, as a global whole to tell stories through. Through that I wanted to deliver what I call a commission on grizzly bear management. And what I want to have is some formal process where people can make presentations to us to a board which then are documented and turned into a what we heard type document. But it's going to focus on marginalized voices, the people that are not being heard in grizzly bear management and stewardship, and then have a document that would be available for policymakers to say, you've got to start listening and incorporating the values of these people because these organizations that you've got in bed with are ignoring that. Going to have a specific podcast again to amplify these marginalized voices, all of our social media stuff. I'd love to get into some billboard campaigns and bus stop campaigns to start to put some of these ideas into the moderate middle out there in society because they're only hearing, you know, one side. And I'd like us to be able to get a seat at the table, especially in British Columbia, and sort of move away from the Grizzly Bear foundation having control over the development of public policy. At least be able to comment, review and be there so that we can interject some balance in, into this. And you know, it's, you know, another, another part that sort of concerns me. I see it in Alberta and I see it in British Columbia. When you take hunting away, bears lose Their value. And they're not just losing their value with hunters going, I don't care about grizzly bears, if I have a problem I'm going to shoot one and not tell anybody. Like you hear all that, that sort of stuff. But it's a reality. I mean when I look at the statistics for grizzly bears, one thing I'm seeing in both Alberta and British Columbia is the rate at which grizzly bears are being killed is going up since the end of the hunt. They are getting run over on highways and run over by trains and like sometimes on mass. Like four bears killed by one train, one shot a sow and three cubs and an hour east of me, you know, last year, a year year ago, like it's, it's breakneck speed. And when I look at data sets of known human cause mortality, poaching cases, these sorts of things where the governments have a handle, they're able to confirm there's this big unknown category, bears are being found dead and no, no evidence to lay charges. So it's not in a poaching category, it's just an unknown. And honestly I think what's happening is, that's the shoot, shovel, shut up thing. And it's happening everywhere. It's happening everywhere in Alberta and B.C. because people have been pushed too far. They're tired of living in fear. They are tired of worrying about their kids, rural ranch properties, their livelihoods, outfitters, you know, the hunters, you know that all of this and people are just tired. They've been pushed socially too far. And it doesn't, you know, one of the things, you've seen this in Africa.
[40:56]
C
It'S not helping the animal, not at all helping animal at all.
[40:59]
D
It's this uncontrolled human caused mortality which, which is affecting, you know, the species as a whole because the numbers are, are, are pretty high in some places. And so there's this social value, this social value that's been lost because hunting has been banned. And even if rural people go, hey, there's a hunting season. We've seen some grizzly bear hunters in here this spring. They have a general sense that there's something proactive being done. They're going to try to remove a bear out of an, out of an area or something like that. There's this, this sort of, yeah, okay, somebody's doing something, somebody's managing the grizzly bears, we're going to remove a few out of this valley. That makes us feel better. Even if it's more like a placebo effect, that's okay. But when you take that away, people are like, I got a bear, he's killed this, or he's dumb, you know, whatever. The kid, the kid's waiting at the bus stop or something, nothing happens, nothing happens, nothing happens. Next thing you know, somebody finds, somebody's going to take it, you know, in a ditch. And I don't see that Canada is above those basic human elements. Like, we see it in India, we see it in Africa, we see it in South America. All over the world, when it comes down to your livelihood and your family's lives, people kill tigers, they kill leopards, they kill jaguars, they kill bears. And it's done in a very, very brutal way. Like, you know, the, the, the work that the guys are doing in India, they, they don't even have firearms. So the rural people are, are, you know, bludgeoning these, these animals to death and then celebrating them and dismembering them and walking around saying, you know, here's the leopard that killed so and so's livestock. We're not above that in this country, you know, and, and if you think somehow we are different, people are the same, you'll protect your livelihood and you'll protect your family. The consequence is grizzly bears are a case selected species. And when there is this shoot, shovel and shut up thing going on, then we truly have a conservation problem and it's happening. I believe that sustainable use hunting can play a role in reducing the overall number of bears that are dying at the hands of people. Because there's an element of sustainable use that satisfies a tremendous amount of rural people, that grizzly bears are being hunted. We're not trying to eradicate them, but they're satisfied that something proactive is being done. Their voices are being heard.
[43:37]
C
So what can people do? Somebody's like, man, I want to get involved, I want to be involved in this project Grizzly Balance. So what's the next steps for someone?
[43:45]
D
We got a number of things on the go. So go to the Origins Foundation's webpage to projects you will find Project Grizzly Balance. And you can support us in achieving some of these big goals like the commission. So marginalized voices can be put in front of policymakers, a documentary or series of documentaries so we can reach the masses, billboard all that stuff that's going to take money. And we need to be able to fight this fight to be on par with the philanthropists that are, that are fueling the engines that are preventing sustainable use hunting. We need, we need to get on their level. And that's going to take a lot so you can support us in a big way. If you're an organization that's pro sustainable use, pro science based grizzly bear management as an individual you can become part of that. And I'm also going to be looking for people that spend a lot of time on the ground to report back to me what they're seeing. I need this railroad of information coming into us as a hub to saying this is what I'm seeing, this is what's going on. I just got back from this fly in float plane trip and this is what happened to us. Like every story, farmer, a rancher, a something, a rather that's that's living in this world of being closest to grizzly bears. I need to hear your stories because they are a real part of grizzly bear management and sustainable use. It's not just all, all data and numbers that scientists collect. What people are seeing, what people's values are. The experiences you have are real and collectively that in my mind is data that needs to be part of the considerations in all of these Western Canada jurisdictions when it comes to grizzly bear management. So become part of grizzly bear management, part of group project Grizzly Balance as an information source.
[45:49]
C
Awesome. Well, it's going to be great. I'm. I'm really excited about the voice that you're going to carry. It is trepidatious. Is that a word? Trepidatious waters because you're going up against juggernauts. But that's not what we're afraid of. We're not afraid to go up against the biggest and the loudest voices that are opposed to a sustainable use lifestyle. So. But Mark, we're with you. Everybody else if you are interested in getting a hold of Mark you can DM him through Wild Origins Canada. You can email him@markildorigins.org and also check out the webpage that has a bunch of information around project Grizzly Bounds.
[46:35]
D
Perfect. Thank you.
[46:37]
C
Thanks Mark. Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.
[46:51]
E
Hey guys, this is Melissa Bachman. Are you ready to stop spooking deer before it's even time to hunt them? Then you need the new Flex s dark cellular trail camera from spypoint with a no glow flash option, long lasting solar solar power and a ton of settings that can be changed anytime through the Spy Point app. There are no more excuses for letting your deer get wise before the season even starts, so check it out for yourself and see why. The spypoint Flex S Dark is the unstoppable and undetectable scouting tool you need for your next hunt.
[47:28]
D
Hit the road for fun and heartwarming fishing adventures with the real American Road trip. I just want to hook up one time. I just need to hook up one time. Catch the Waypoint Original Series every Tuesday at 9:30pm Eastern on the Waypoint TV channel. Waypoint TV, your destination for outdoor entertainment. I did get a bite. I have gotten a bite.
[47:47]
C
I did feel it.

Summary5 min read

The Origins Foundation Podcast

Episode 597 – Mark Hall || Project Grizzly Balance

Date: September 30, 2025
Host: The Origins Foundation
Guest: Mark Hall (Director of Wild Origins Canada)

Episode Overview

This episode features Mark Hall, Director of Wild Origins Canada, discussing "Project Grizzly Balance"—an initiative aiming to reclaim the narrative around grizzly bear conservation and management in British Columbia and greater Western Canada. Mark and the host delve deeply into the impacts of the ban on grizzly bear hunting, the loss of science-driven management, social consequences for rural communities, and a vision for a more balanced coexistence through sustainable use and amplified marginalized voices.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Context and Genesis of Project Grizzly Balance

Background:
Grizzly bear hunting was banned in British Columbia in 2016/2017 (and earlier in Alberta), triggering profound management and social shifts.
Mark’s Motivation:
The ban, the negative public narrative, and lack of a Canadian voice in the debate motivated Mark Hall to advocate for balanced, science-based wildlife policy.
Origins of Advocacy:
Mark’s journey began with the founding of the Hunter Conservationist Podcast after observing the silencing of local hunters and lack of influential Canadian voices during the initial ban debates.
- Quote:
  "I realized that Canada was lacking that voice. And so I started writing and wading into the grizzly bear issue...and that led to the Hunter Conservationist Podcast." — Mark (10:53)

2. Consequences of the Grizzly Bear Hunting Ban

A. Diminished Science and Management Capacity

Loss of Government-Led Research:
With hunting banned, government support for population monitoring and research diminished.
- Quote:
  "When Dr. McClellan, Tony Hamilton, when those fellows retired, that was it...We're now down to one [large carnivore specialist] for all of British Columbia." — Mark (16:12)
Lack of Data & Management Targets:
Management plans became vague and lacked clear, actionable targets or population science.

B. Impact on Conservation and Human Populations

Unmanaged Population Risks:
Certain grizzly bear populations (e.g., North Cascade unit) now face genetic isolation and decline due to lack of immigration/emigration and insufficient monitoring.
- Quote:
  "That's death, that's the death knell for any animal population...this requires a lot of science. What's going on?" — Mark (24:24)
Rising Human-Wildlife Conflict:
Rural voices’ concerns have been dismissed, leading to growing frustration and increased grizzly-human conflicts.
- Quote:
  "I'm seeing...the loss of social tolerance, the increasing conflict, the increasing human caused mortality and no sustainable use is part of that whatsoever." — Mark (19:15)
Increase in Illegal Killings:
Mark notes an uptick in undocumented or illegal grizzly mortality ("shoot, shovel, shut up") since the hunting ban.

3. Grizzly Bear Biology & Science-Driven Management

K-Selected Species Explanation:
Grizzlies are slow to reproduce and vulnerable to any increase in mortality; sustainable hunting relied on rigorous data and adaptive management.
- Quote:
  "A K-selected species is an animal whose reproduction rates are very slow...for grizzly bears it's about 10 years." — Mark (27:12)
Example of Past Rigorous Management:
British Columbia previously shut down hunts when mortality targets were reached, illustrating adaptive management at work.

4. Social Value and the Role of Sustainable Use

Loss of Social Tolerance:
The ban has diminished the value/importance rural people place on grizzlies, escalating frustration and potentially illegal responses.
- Quote:
  "When you take hunting away, bears lose their value. And they're not just losing their value with hunters going, 'I don't care about grizzly bears'...But it's a reality." — Mark (39:40)
Parallel with Global Conservation:
Mark draws analogies to Africa, India, and South America to highlight that human-wildlife conflict, when unmanaged, produces similar social outcomes regardless of country.

5. Project Grizzly Balance: Goals and Strategic Actions

Amplifying Marginalized Voices:
Aim to let rural residents, First Nations, ranchers, Outfitters, and others closest to grizzlies influence the conversation and policy.
Documentary & Media Campaigns:
Plans for powerful storytelling through documentaries, podcasts, social and traditional media to reach a wide audience.
Commission and Policy Engagement:
Formal process to collect rural experiences, create "what we heard" reports, and deliver them to policymakers to counterbalance well-funded, anti-hunting narratives.
Restoring Balance in Narrative and Policy:
Seek a seat at the policy table, particularly where philanthropist-backed foundations dominate grizzly management decisions.
- Quote:
  "One of my first and foremost objectives is I want to start champion those voices and letting the masses hear what these people have to say because they're being squashed and silenced and bullied and threatened with lawsuits to keep the hell quiet." — Mark (33:31)

6. How to Get Involved

Support Mechanisms:
Donate through the Origins Foundation website towards Project Grizzly Balance, fund specific initiatives (commission, documentary, billboards), or join as an organization or individual.
Contribution of Local Knowledge:
Mark seeks information and stories from people on the ground to inform ongoing management and advocacy.
- Quote:
  "I need to hear your stories because they are a real part of grizzly bear management and sustainable use...what people's values are...the experiences you have are real and collectively that...is data." — Mark (44:40)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Mark on the core purpose:
"I want to balance the narrative about grizzly bears and about the role of sustainable use as a part of grizzly bear conservation because that narrative has shifted away from that." (33:31)
On the loss of management science:
"When hunting was banned, no research, we lost all that data. We lost having our finger on the pulse of what these grizzly bear populations were doing." (29:35)
Host's endorsement:
"I'm really excited about the voice that you're going to carry. It is trepidatious waters because you're going up against juggernauts. But that's not what we're afraid of." (45:49)

Key Timestamps

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|------------------------------------------------------------| | 01:00 | Introduction of Mark Hall and Project Grizzly Balance | | 05:22 | History of the grizzly bear hunting ban in BC & Alberta | | 10:23 | Mark's motivation and origins as an advocate | | 14:12 | Decline in science and research post-ban | | 22:11 | North Cascade grizzly population management concerns | | 27:12 | Explanation of grizzly bear biology (K-selected) | | 32:10 | Current state of First Nations research/management | | 33:23 | Project Grizzly Balance objectives and advocacy strategy | | 39:40 | Social consequences; increase in human-bear conflict | | 43:44 | How listeners can get involved with Project Grizzly Balance|

Conclusion

This episode underscores the urgent need for balanced, science-driven grizzly bear conservation policy in Western Canada. Mark Hall’s "Project Grizzly Balance" champions marginalized voices, seeks to restore rigorous management, and promote meaningful coexistence—inviting hunters, conservationists, rural residents, and scientists to be part of a renewed, nuanced approach to wildlife management.

Further Information & Involvement:

Visit the Origins Foundation website and check the Project Grizzly Balance page.
Submit experiences or support the commission/documentary.
Contact Mark directly via Wild Origins Canada or at mark[at]wildorigins.org

Loading summary

Transcript64 lines

[00:00]
A
Want to plan your next fishing trip without the hassle? FishingBooker.com is the best way to find and book a fishing charter anywhere in the world. Whether you're chasing trophy fish or just looking for a family day on the water, fishingbooker makes it simple, fast and secure. With thousands of experienced guides, verified reviews and 247 customer support, FishingBooker takes the guesswork out of planning. Visit fishingbooker.com and book your trip today. FishingBooker Fishing trips made easy Join us.
[00:30]
B
At a Friends of NRA event where freedom, fun and firearms come together like nowhere else. With more than 600 events held across the country, there's always one happening near you. From exciting games to exclusive auctions featuring one of a kind firearms and gear you won't find anywhere else. Whether you're a lifelong hunter, a competitive shooter, or simply passionate about defending freedom, there is a seat for you. Visit friendsofnra.org to find an event near you. And get ready for a night you won't forget.
[01:00]
C
Mark hall is the director of Wild Origins Canada. And on this podcast we're going to talk about a project that he is about to stand up called Project Grizzly Balance. Grizzly bear hunting has been banned for quite some time in this province of British Columbia and Mark lives in the province of British Columbia and he has started to interact with, with first nations and truly to get a grip on what's happening because of the ban. So what you're going to hear from Mark is this idea of balance, that banning is one extreme, you know, all out hunting is another extreme. We need balance, we need balance for wildlife. You're seeing that all over the world. Polar bears, elephants, wolves, whatever. But in British Columbia specifically, grizzlies need to be managed. There needs to be a balance to them. And so Mark and Wild Origins Canada is essentially sitting on a path as a project to really claim back the narrative around grizzly bears hunting and the need for management, the need for balance for this specific species. So enjoy. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple, is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting.
[02:23]
D
It brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals. How do I start it? Brittany?
[02:33]
C
My name is.
[02:35]
E
Does my hair look okay?
[02:37]
C
My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the caught of me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for A non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game for the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter. Well, it's been a little bit since we've had Mark hall on. Mark hall now is the director of Wild Origins Canada. Has taken big strides in Canada, has grown a following, has grown a profile. Super proud of what is happening in Canada and we haven't had Mark on the podcast for quite some time. But he said, hey, I want to come on the podcast because I've got some things that I want to push forward, specifically some projects that I want to push forward. And I said, okay, well are any of them controversial? He says everything is controversial in what I do, that's for sure. Mark, welcome back, dude. It's been a while.
[03:52]
D
Thanks.
[03:53]
C
It has been for those that may not remember who you are.
[03:57]
D
Yeah, well, you gave the introduction. Director of Wild Origins Canada Foundation. So we have a non profit, federally registered corporation, not for profit in Canada set up the Wild Origins Canada foundation and we're growing that we will become a registered charity. Like you have the 501C down down in the US we have charitable tax status. So we're working towards that. And yeah, we are growing our voice. We're you know, I guess becoming an, an authority, a trusted source of, of sustainable use information in Canada and there isn't anything in this country that we won't wade into that are incredibly political, tricky and prickly issues a lot around indigenous conflicts in Manitoba. There's blockades happening, hunting seasons coming up where you know, know we're covering that, that you take heat for that. And this project, Project Grizzly Balance in Western Canada, it is probably one of the, the next big prickly issues about sustainable use and the conservation of, of grizzly bears. And we're wading into that sandbox in a big way.
[05:22]
C
So Project Grizzly Balance is the project we're going to talk about today. Give us a little bit of history on like what has happened, what has transpired to get us to today. And then I think the next question after that we can, that I'll ask is, you know, so why, why are we deciding to do this now? So let's just talk about the history. Grizzly bear hunting has been banned in British Columbia, right?
[05:50]
D
Yes, it was banned in British Columbia and also in Alberta. They were.
[05:57]
C
Did it happen at the same time?
[05:59]
D
No, different, different years. I think Alberta was, I'm just trying to remember now before British Columbia.
[06:06]
C
Okay, interesting.
[06:07]
D
2,010 some somewhere in there, British Columbia was 2016, just after a provincial election. And then it kind of came in full force. I think it was 2017 or 2018. So it's been like you know, a decade in in B.C. and more so in, in Alberta. But you can still hunt grizzly bears in the Yukon, in the Northwest Territories and in a little corner of Nunavut territory, but not in British Columbia or Alberta. First nations can hunt grizzly bears in all, all of the provinces and territories because they have constitutionally protected rights to continue their way of life in hunting, which includes grizzly bears. Unfortunately they've, you know, lost their ability to manage them as a predator in some places because licensed hunters are removed. Their outfitting industries, you know, those that were had outfitting businesses or guides were impacted.
[07:11]
C
Look guys, I'm a hunter, right? And when I go hunting, I like to figure out how to get my trophies back home as expeditiously as possible. Well, you don't have to look much further than Safari Specialty Importers. We know that trophy importation can be quite a headache. That's why Safari Specialty Importer strives to make it as easy and hassle free as possible. They have access to a bonded warehouse, you won't be charged storage fees and you get a dedicated team that's readily available and will update you at every step in the process. They'll even go one step further. Safari Specialty Importers is working with us and they are going to donate $100 from every shipment that they work with to conservation projects that include anti poaching, community development and wildlife conservation. At the end of the day, choose to spend your money with a team that's dedicated to you and is dedicated to helping show how hunting is a great conservation model. Hassle free logistics, fuel and conservation go with Safari Specialty importers. Hunting and shooting suppressed have become the norm in over 42 states where suppressors are legal. The growing popularity of suppressors has even led to legislative changes. You might have heard some things around the big beautiful bill, right? Including the reduction of the NFA mandated tax stamp. Before you used to pay 200 bucks and now starting January 1st of 2026, the tax stamp is going to zero. However, why wait until January 1st? Our partners silence Essential great friends of ours, they're going to pay your tax stamp right now. So if you buy a banished suppressor or other popular brands that essentially are qualifying purchases, Silence Essential is going to cover the cost of the tax stamp. They're going to save you 200 bucks right now. So make sure you don't miss out. Shooting suppressed. If you're in the market for a new suppressor, Whether it's your first or your next one, visit silenceessential.com or call them 866-811-6536. Silence Essential is going to cover your tax stamp right now. They're going to simplify the submission process and deliver your suppressor right to your door. Don't wait. Get your suppressor right now and start shooting. Suppress this season, Bushnell is eager to help you get set up for conservation success. That's right. They want to help you. The conservation and research community is dominated by good people doing good things and investing significant time and effort for the benefit of habitat and the species. So what do you need to do? Pretty simple. Send us your conservation story and or your conservation wish. Could be managing whitetails, could be understanding your environment or species or something else related to conservation. What would you be able to do if you had a great trail camera setup? We will select the best story every other month and send you a camera bundle. Cell camera, normal SD camera, SD cards, as well as optics. Everything you need to get set up for success. I can't wait to see what you submit. You can email us, DM us, message us, whatever you want. We are not hard to find. Good luck.
[10:23]
D
You know, so. So to really weigh back up, the interesting thing about this project, which is, is kind of sort of coming full circle for me. The reason I'm sitting here is because of the grizzly bear ban in British Columbia and that this is where it all started for me.
[10:41]
C
Really?
[10:42]
D
Because when the conversation has happened, was.
[10:45]
C
It hunter, conservationist, an existing entity before the grizzly bear band?
[10:50]
D
This is why it came about actually.
[10:52]
C
Wow.
[10:53]
D
So when the debate came, so, so leading up to a provincial election in British Columbia, there was a whole bunch of controversy in the media, you know, about grizzly bear hunting and trophy hunting and you know, these negative stories that were front page news, you know, this, this sort of thing. And it was really starting to, to ramp up. There had been some conflicts between a bear viewing operation and the guiding operation on coastal British Columbia. And it was just, it was, it was bubbling up when the, when it was coming up to the 2016 election, the leader of the NDP party in British Columbia basically put it into their election platform that if they were elected, they would ban the grizzly bear hunt. And then, so then everything kind of blew up and all these narratives started happening and I was on the pulse of that. I was, I was watch, watching all of this and something Very interesting. Started to come to light for me. And it was one hunters in British Columbia were getting slammed and, you know, painted and mud slapped on them. They were reaching out to celebrities in the US saying, you need to help us. You need to wade into this. In particular through social media. I saw a lot of people reaching out to Stephen Rinella. They said, like, hey, Steve, you came up to British Columbia with Cal. You know, you would try to get a grizz bear hunt, you know, try to get yourself a grizzly bear, like, help us cover the story, like say something. And it was just, it was crickets. And I really realized that Canada lacked a voice. So there was some very powerful voices, you know, happening in the States, internationally, and, and people that were becoming, you know, very recognized. But it wasn't Canada. Canada wasn't their history, Canada wasn't their culture. Canada wasn't where they could only hunt or what they cared most about. And I realized that Canada was lacking that voice. And so I started writing and I started wading into the grizzly bear issue, saying like, okay, hang on a second here, folks. Let's back up. Let's look at the science challenge. Some of these narratives that were out there and that led to the hunter Conservationist podcast. The very first podcast, episode one was a friend of ours, Dr. Clayton Lamb, who was a grizzly bear researcher. And we kind of dove into the whole nuance of what he had, was learning through his PhD research and kind of grizzly bears moving into human settlement areas basically was kind of what he. He dug into. And. And we were off to the races and opened up the scope and we're covering everything in Canada and here I am sitting here almost 10 years later.
[13:49]
C
That is an amazing story. I didn't even know that story, man. That's crazy. Episode number one was about grizzly bears.
[13:56]
D
Yes. Yep. And so. And episode 100 was also about grizzly bears, which was with Dr. Bruce McClellan, who was.
[14:06]
C
Is Dr. Clayton Lamb still around?
[14:08]
D
Oh, yeah, yeah, he's. He's still around. Lives both.
[14:11]
C
Is he still a grizzly babologist?
[14:12]
D
He does grizzly bear. He's now got like numerous projects on the grow on the go, endangered caribou conservation work. He's working in an indigenous led caribou recovery project in northern British Columbia. He's still. I can get into this. He is running one of the only grizzly bear studies in southern British Columbia because the government got out of the business of doing research when it banned hunting because there was no need to worry about grizzly bears. Now that the greatest threat to the species which was removed and, and it went away. But episode 100 was with Dr. Bruce McClellan. He was probably one of the most recognized and respected grizzly bear scientists in the world. He was a government researcher. He worked for the government. He researched grizzly bears. He grew up with grizzly bears. He raised his kids in the Flathead Valley in southern British Columbia up against the Montana border which at the time had the highest density of grizzly bears in all of North America. His kids grew up in that. His daughter is now a grizzly bear researcher. Dr. Michelle McMullen had her on the show. But doing grizzly bear research as a government person, you know, you know they only work a couple of hours a day and you know and all this kind of stuff and they don't have a lot of accountability. But Bruce was a scientist. Bruce was first and foremost for grizzly bears for sustainable use. And he published peer reviewed science as a government researcher. And that's almost unheard of here, not unheard of in the US A lot of government biologists publish and that's cool. We locked it up here. So he was episode 100 and we dove into grizzly bear hunting and grizzly bear conservation and management.
[16:10]
C
Is he still a governmental scientist today?
[16:12]
D
He retired. And this was one of the consequences of banning grizzly bear hunting that I, I mentioned in British Columbia is the general thought within the anti hunting community because we have a huge philanthropic organization here in B.C. that's powering the, the stop the hunt type thing or don't ever bring it back. And within government that once hunting was removed, there wasn't a lot of need for grizzly bear research. It was, it was, they're fine now. And when Dr. McClellan, Tony Hamilton, when those fellows retired, that was it. The government did not replace them. There were four during hunting of grizzly bears there were four scientists in British Columbia researching grizzly bear populations in different regions. Because we're big. Bruce was like the eminent authority of the interior grizzly Rocky Mountains, southern parts of B.C. and some of the other fellows, you know, specialized in, in other areas and we're now down to one. And, and he's actually by his doctorate and thesis, he's not actually a grizzly bear scientist but he is the large carnivore scientist for the government. One, one person for all of the British Columbia. And if you remember, if you know, you remember if you took British Columbia and superimposed it on the US it would stretch from the international boundary between Seattle and And Vancouver all the way to the Mexican border and take in all of the western states. That that is how big British Columbia is one large carnivore specialist of which grizzly bears are one of the largest, you know, conservation species. And, and that was a consequence government led research. None. Like I said, there is a couple.
[18:12]
C
Of people fall under that carnivore biologist or do they have a separate black bear biologist?
[18:17]
D
Nope. So he, that that one person has, has everything. Bulls, grizzly bears, cougars and oh my gosh, a black bears. And that's it. And it's all policy driven. So the province supports some of the outside grizzly bear research that's being done like the Dr. Clayton Lamb is still working on, but he's not leading the science, the province is not leading the science anymore. And this is one of the reasons I'm getting into this project Grizzly Balance in a big way is I feel watching the pulse of what's happening in Alberta, what's happening in British Columbia and I'm worried about the ban grizzly bear hunting campaigns in the Yukon and the Northwest Territories getting hold is I feel since the end of hunting, since the end of sustainable use of grizzly bears that people and grizzly bears are worse off. We have a worse situation now in western Canada because we don't have sustainable use hunting as a component of grizzly bear conservation. There are populations that are exploding in Alberta and northern British Columbia. There are places where they potentially could disappear because they're suffering genetic bottlenecks, lack of immigration, emigration out of the population, some very serious stuff. But it's a gigantic, you know, landmass where grizzly bears are. You got to manage them on a population, by population basis and they're, and they're all different. But as a general, you know, overarching thing, what I'm seeing is rural people are being dismissed. Their concerns, their fears, what they're living with are being dismissed because the narratives are being controlled in British Columbia, they're being controlled in Alberta. Folks that stand up for some level of sustainable use and citizen, you know, authorized, you know, hunting, they're being dismissed, they're being silenced, they're being challenged. We do, you know, we get it whenever we wade into it and we'll probably get a lot more of it. And I think grizzly bears are worse off because there is no sustainable use. So like I mentioned before one, there's very little science being done on it.
[20:46]
C
Anymore because, well, it ties to the value argument, right?
[20:49]
D
It does.
[20:50]
C
At the highest level, the government doesn't value grizzly bears anymore. So they're not putting any money behind investing in research anymore. It has no value to them.
[20:59]
D
It. Exactly. And, and you know, and, and I think there's just a lot of misunderstanding, you know, even at the highest levels in government or in politics because they're being controlled by this, by this anti hunting narrative. What to believe and what not to believe is folks at the highest level of policy making in, you know, British Columbia believe that hunting was the single greatest threat to grizzly bears. And once you remove that, they're good. Park it. Check mark grizzly bears. Okay, let's move on to something else. Jobs, economy, you know, whatever we got elected based on, on that platform and that's just not true. So here's an example of how this is impacting grizzly bears. Grizzly bear conservation itself is. The North Cascade Grizzly Bear Population Management Unit is in southwestern British Columbia. Coastal mountain area grizzly bear population. They overlap into the Cascades of Washington which everybody knows. That's where there's a big momentum gaining for a grizzly bear reintroduction project. There's a first nation in British Columbia.
[22:11]
C
How long it spilled over already.
[22:13]
D
There's so few bears.
[22:15]
C
Oh there's, there's unlike the, unlike the other opposite kind where opposite side where it's close to the Montana border, you've got the highest density of beds.
[22:25]
D
Those are literally on the opposite sides of the province. So let's just for you know, folks in the States listening, just, just north of, you know, kind of north essentially.
[22:36]
C
Is there a continental divide that comes into B.C.
[22:39]
D
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So you've got coastal mountains, sort of the interior Selkirk Purcell Mountain range in the Rocky Mountains. So grizzly bears are doing very well in the Rocky Mountain region. They're doing very well in the north more wilderness areas and in the southeast of the more populated areas, the big, the big centers. So, so any this North Cascade population management unit transboundary, they've recognized on the US side that grizzly bears are at risk of disappearing. They have identified that they're at risk of disappearing in British Columbia, the northern extent of their range, because they're suffering from genetic bottleneck. And what that means is there's just a very small genetic population of bears that's grow slowly. The number of bears are shrinking and the genetic pool is shrinking with that. There's no major movement of bears coming in and out of this pop population. They're not connecting with populations to the north and, and to the east. And so that's death that's the death nail for any animal. Population is dwindling in numbers. Males and females have trouble finding each other and they're traveling more. They're getting run over on, on railroad tracks and whatnot. So this, this is something major. This requires a lot of science. What's going on? Like we got to be on the pulse. We should have half a dozen research projects on the go. We should have some recovery targets. We should have some clear, identiful identifiable actions of what's actually happening. And, and like, let's get recovering these bears. They banned the hunt. Almost 10 years went by and they finally released a draft grizzly bear conservation management plan for the province a year ago. And that population management unit has no firm commitments of things like science funding targets. Like what population do they actually want? There's nothing, it's just a bunch of vague motherhood statements of like, you know, oh, we want to see like a self sustaining population of grizzly bears in the North Cascades and we want to invest in their conservation and blah, blah, blah. And it's like great, like put some things on paper so people know what you're doing and how that's going to lead to recovery. And I feel that has been a consequence of banning the hunt is there's no firm targets, there's no data, there's no science, there's nothing for anybody to go on other than just these, these wishy washy, you know, broad motherhood statements. And as you know, a management plan has got to come down to who's doing what, when and why are we doing this. Let's do it. Is it working? Yes or no. And adjust as we go. Are the bears reaching?
[25:37]
C
How did they get so isolated? How did the. It's, how long are they.
[25:42]
D
It's a combination of geography like mountains.
[25:46]
C
They always been isolated or was there immigration? Immigration that just got cut off through.
[25:52]
D
Yeah, I mean through development. So on the BC side, so your major highways, your major cities, you know, to the east and to the north and big recreational developments and your major highway corridors and just some really, really ugly, you know, Rocky Mountain, you know, rocky terrain, coastal mountains. And you know, these bears probably at the best of times, you know, maybe mingled more with the coastal populations, but the coastal areas got taken over by the metropolis of, of Vancouver and, and, and all that. And, and so that's it. There they were. Combination of geography and human development of the landscape put them into this little compartment where there's very, very little mixing. So that's where we got to come in to putting collars on bears and understanding their movement. Where's their corridors? How you know, why are bears not getting from, from A to B? What's in their way? Start looking at you know, highway overpasses and connective corridors and you know all of those types of conservation strategies. When we had hunting, yes this they're case they're a sensitive species, they're slow reproducers. We have to be very careful when we hunt.
[27:07]
C
Hunting, you're about to call them a K selected species. Explain to everyone what is a K selected species.
[27:12]
D
So a K selected species, I'll get a sorry for the science stuff, nerd out on it. A K selected species is an animal who's basically their reproduction rates are very slow. They will have their young in tow for a long period of time. They have very few offspring, you know one or two kind of thing and numbers of years to raise those offspring and it take and their, their, their growth, their maturity to when that animal first is able to reproduce itself. So in biology nothing really happens in a population until an offspring is able to replace itself. And until you reach that point your population hasn't done anything. For grizzly bears it's about 10 years. So when that cub's born, if it's a female it's going to take 10 years before she produces her own litter. So she has to survive and her offspring have to survive so she replaces herself and we can say yes there has been an incremental increase in the population. What's happening in southern British Columbia is almost you know, there was a meta study done. So so anyways K selected species, slow reproducers, long, very sensitive, long lived, very sensitive to human caused mortality. So it's not just hunting. If you're running them over with cars, if you're running them over with trains, if you're killing them left, right and left. Because of human conflict their populations can easily be put into a spiral and the animals can be easily put into an endangered or a recovery status type thing. Hunting. When you fit hunting into that of a K selected species you gotta heavily rely on data. You better be on top of your population, you better be monitoring them. You better know every single animal, especially females that are run over on a highway, what their age was, you know, what population they were from and then what can be safely allocated to sustainable use hunting and, and you got to stay on top of that like it's in British Columbia they worked on about a 5 to 6% human caused mortality because of the sensitivity of grizzly bears. BC had world class Science. We were doing an amazing job at blending hunting into this total human caused mortality. Sometimes hunting seasons were shut down sometimes two weeks before my brother in law's clients came in who booked a hunt two years before he gets a phone call saying hey, we looked at the data, too many females got killed in your zone last year. Your permits canceled for this string this spring, two weeks before his hunter showed up. But that's how sensitive, you know, managing a case selected species is. And when we had hunting, we had the rigor of the science, we had the data. We were looking at this combination of overall human cause mortality and adjusting the one that we control which was, was, was hunting. When hunting was banned, no research, we lost all that data. We lost having our finger on the pulse of what these grizzly bear populations were doing. And that is showing up as a consequence to populations like the North Cascade grizzly bear population. There's no science, nobody knows what's, what's going on. We don't even know the numbers, we don't know where they're moving yet. The best they can do now is they don't have data driven objectives. They just have, you know, objectives that look good on paper, you know, to the public. Oh yeah, no, that's a field feel good statement, right? That's not going to work for grizzly bears. So, you know, part of what I'm developing and leading into Project Grizzly Balance is coming at it from the heart of grizzly bear conservation. Yes, they are a sensitive species. There's a lot of different dynamics going on and I do fundamentally believe that sustainable use can fit into the big picture of grizzly bear conservation. And what I'm seeing in the loss of science, the loss of social tolerance, the increasing conflict, the increasing human caused mortality and no sustainable use is part of that whatsoever. I am equally worried about the future of grizzly bears, especially in the southern parts of Alberta and British Columbia as I am about the opportunity for hunters to be able to have an experience hunting a grizzly bear. It's equally important to me.
[32:10]
C
Are the first nations undertaking any signs?
[32:15]
D
There is a scientific project that was just kicked off a month and a bit ago in a wilderness area in northern British Columbia. It's a collaborative effort. The funding is coming from Safari Club International Foundation. They are working with the tall 10 central government and their wildlife biologists. Because the initial question, the initial hey, we need to know what's going on is coming from the tall 10 people and the outfitters up there, they're very concerned that this burgeoning grizzly bear population in northern British Columbia is having a significant impact on caribou and moose, which is their primary sustenance species. Outfitters rely on them and so they've matched up with Safari Club International foundation, they're putting collars. It's a collaborative, you know, SIF and Tall Tan Central Government Research Project. So that's about kind of the only one that I know of. Yeah, yeah.
[33:24]
C
So in your Project Grizzly Balance. Yeah, in your Project Grizzly Balance, you know, what, what are some of the things that you want to implement?
[33:32]
D
So, you know, the, the overarching premises is I want to balance the narrative about grizzly bears and about the role of sustainable use as a part of grizzly bear conservation because that narrative has shifted away from that. Like I said at the start, what is being left out of the broader picture of the conservation of grizzly bears are the voices and the on the ground experience of the people living closest to grizzly bears. Ranchers, farmers, hunters, trappers, outfitters, First Nations. They're all being marginalized because this is a group of people that are advocating for some level of sustainable use back into the mix. So one of my first and foremost objectives is I want to start champion those voices and letting the masses hear what these people have to say because they're being squashed and silenced and bullied and threatened with lawsuits to keep the hell quiet. Like that's, that's literally, you know, what, what's happening in British Columbia. There is a philanthropist who is a, made his wealth from home construction in, you know, the, the recreational area of the Whistler Blackcomb resort area outside of Vancouver. He created a foundation called the Grizzly Bear Foundation. Super well funded, man. They got staff and they can do all kinds of stuff. They're basically so embedded in the government controlling the narrative about grizzly bear management in British Columbia that the government has actually handed them the development of the policy for the management and conservation of grizzly bear. So you have an outside agency, organization writing public policy. That's leaving out most of the voices in the province. So I want to interject ourself back into that. In Alberta you have a much more favorable political climate because the government there and Minister Todd Lohan are doing some good things on the grizzly bear sustainable use front. They are, you know, more pro sustainable use. However, there is a large organization in Alberta, again well funded, from a philanthropist couple, I believe they're from Calgary, that are behind a foundation called the Exposed Wildlife Conservancy and they dominate the narrative in Alberta. About grizzly bear, grizzly bear conservation and constantly attacking the government, the minister and hunters over any inkling of reintroducing hunting as, as a management tool in the Yukon. There's a foundation up there that's starting to push the anti hunting narrative. I don't think they have the big, you know, philanthropic power behind them yet. And so it's just a matter of time or someone else comes out of the woodwork or one of these organizations in B.C. or Alberta saying we're going to expand our mission and here's millions of dollars. Get the grizzly bear hunt canceled in the Yukon and the Northwest Territories. And then my fear is where the balance is being maintained in those territories. You're going to ban grizzly bear hunting and then adopt all the problems that we're having in Alberta and British Columbia, people and grizzly bears will be worse off. So. So I want to get those voices back out there. I want to get into developing a documentary film which spotlights those rural voices, those rural realities of living, you know, with grizzly bears or a series of documentaries. They're powerful medium for us at Origins foundation, you know, as a global whole to tell stories through. Through that I wanted to deliver what I call a commission on grizzly bear management. And what I want to have is some formal process where people can make presentations to us to a board which then are documented and turned into a what we heard type document. But it's going to focus on marginalized voices, the people that are not being heard in grizzly bear management and stewardship, and then have a document that would be available for policymakers to say, you've got to start listening and incorporating the values of these people because these organizations that you've got in bed with are ignoring that. Going to have a specific podcast again to amplify these marginalized voices, all of our social media stuff. I'd love to get into some billboard campaigns and bus stop campaigns to start to put some of these ideas into the moderate middle out there in society because they're only hearing, you know, one side. And I'd like us to be able to get a seat at the table, especially in British Columbia, and sort of move away from the Grizzly Bear foundation having control over the development of public policy. At least be able to comment, review and be there so that we can interject some balance in, into this. And you know, it's, you know, another, another part that sort of concerns me. I see it in Alberta and I see it in British Columbia. When you take hunting away, bears lose Their value. And they're not just losing their value with hunters going, I don't care about grizzly bears, if I have a problem I'm going to shoot one and not tell anybody. Like you hear all that, that sort of stuff. But it's a reality. I mean when I look at the statistics for grizzly bears, one thing I'm seeing in both Alberta and British Columbia is the rate at which grizzly bears are being killed is going up since the end of the hunt. They are getting run over on highways and run over by trains and like sometimes on mass. Like four bears killed by one train, one shot a sow and three cubs and an hour east of me, you know, last year, a year year ago, like it's, it's breakneck speed. And when I look at data sets of known human cause mortality, poaching cases, these sorts of things where the governments have a handle, they're able to confirm there's this big unknown category, bears are being found dead and no, no evidence to lay charges. So it's not in a poaching category, it's just an unknown. And honestly I think what's happening is, that's the shoot, shovel, shut up thing. And it's happening everywhere. It's happening everywhere in Alberta and B.C. because people have been pushed too far. They're tired of living in fear. They are tired of worrying about their kids, rural ranch properties, their livelihoods, outfitters, you know, the hunters, you know that all of this and people are just tired. They've been pushed socially too far. And it doesn't, you know, one of the things, you've seen this in Africa.
[40:56]
C
It'S not helping the animal, not at all helping animal at all.
[40:59]
D
It's this uncontrolled human caused mortality which, which is affecting, you know, the species as a whole because the numbers are, are, are pretty high in some places. And so there's this social value, this social value that's been lost because hunting has been banned. And even if rural people go, hey, there's a hunting season. We've seen some grizzly bear hunters in here this spring. They have a general sense that there's something proactive being done. They're going to try to remove a bear out of an, out of an area or something like that. There's this, this sort of, yeah, okay, somebody's doing something, somebody's managing the grizzly bears, we're going to remove a few out of this valley. That makes us feel better. Even if it's more like a placebo effect, that's okay. But when you take that away, people are like, I got a bear, he's killed this, or he's dumb, you know, whatever. The kid, the kid's waiting at the bus stop or something, nothing happens, nothing happens, nothing happens. Next thing you know, somebody finds, somebody's going to take it, you know, in a ditch. And I don't see that Canada is above those basic human elements. Like, we see it in India, we see it in Africa, we see it in South America. All over the world, when it comes down to your livelihood and your family's lives, people kill tigers, they kill leopards, they kill jaguars, they kill bears. And it's done in a very, very brutal way. Like, you know, the, the, the work that the guys are doing in India, they, they don't even have firearms. So the rural people are, are, you know, bludgeoning these, these animals to death and then celebrating them and dismembering them and walking around saying, you know, here's the leopard that killed so and so's livestock. We're not above that in this country, you know, and, and if you think somehow we are different, people are the same, you'll protect your livelihood and you'll protect your family. The consequence is grizzly bears are a case selected species. And when there is this shoot, shovel and shut up thing going on, then we truly have a conservation problem and it's happening. I believe that sustainable use hunting can play a role in reducing the overall number of bears that are dying at the hands of people. Because there's an element of sustainable use that satisfies a tremendous amount of rural people, that grizzly bears are being hunted. We're not trying to eradicate them, but they're satisfied that something proactive is being done. Their voices are being heard.
[43:37]
C
So what can people do? Somebody's like, man, I want to get involved, I want to be involved in this project Grizzly Balance. So what's the next steps for someone?
[43:45]
D
We got a number of things on the go. So go to the Origins Foundation's webpage to projects you will find Project Grizzly Balance. And you can support us in achieving some of these big goals like the commission. So marginalized voices can be put in front of policymakers, a documentary or series of documentaries so we can reach the masses, billboard all that stuff that's going to take money. And we need to be able to fight this fight to be on par with the philanthropists that are, that are fueling the engines that are preventing sustainable use hunting. We need, we need to get on their level. And that's going to take a lot so you can support us in a big way. If you're an organization that's pro sustainable use, pro science based grizzly bear management as an individual you can become part of that. And I'm also going to be looking for people that spend a lot of time on the ground to report back to me what they're seeing. I need this railroad of information coming into us as a hub to saying this is what I'm seeing, this is what's going on. I just got back from this fly in float plane trip and this is what happened to us. Like every story, farmer, a rancher, a something, a rather that's that's living in this world of being closest to grizzly bears. I need to hear your stories because they are a real part of grizzly bear management and sustainable use. It's not just all, all data and numbers that scientists collect. What people are seeing, what people's values are. The experiences you have are real and collectively that in my mind is data that needs to be part of the considerations in all of these Western Canada jurisdictions when it comes to grizzly bear management. So become part of grizzly bear management, part of group project Grizzly Balance as an information source.
[45:49]
C
Awesome. Well, it's going to be great. I'm. I'm really excited about the voice that you're going to carry. It is trepidatious. Is that a word? Trepidatious waters because you're going up against juggernauts. But that's not what we're afraid of. We're not afraid to go up against the biggest and the loudest voices that are opposed to a sustainable use lifestyle. So. But Mark, we're with you. Everybody else if you are interested in getting a hold of Mark you can DM him through Wild Origins Canada. You can email him@markildorigins.org and also check out the webpage that has a bunch of information around project Grizzly Bounds.
[46:35]
D
Perfect. Thank you.
[46:37]
C
Thanks Mark. Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.
[46:51]
E
Hey guys, this is Melissa Bachman. Are you ready to stop spooking deer before it's even time to hunt them? Then you need the new Flex s dark cellular trail camera from spypoint with a no glow flash option, long lasting solar solar power and a ton of settings that can be changed anytime through the Spy Point app. There are no more excuses for letting your deer get wise before the season even starts, so check it out for yourself and see why. The spypoint Flex S Dark is the unstoppable and undetectable scouting tool you need for your next hunt.
[47:28]
D
Hit the road for fun and heartwarming fishing adventures with the real American Road trip. I just want to hook up one time. I just need to hook up one time. Catch the Waypoint Original Series every Tuesday at 9:30pm Eastern on the Waypoint TV channel. Waypoint TV, your destination for outdoor entertainment. I did get a bite. I have gotten a bite.
[47:47]
C
I did feel it.

Episode 597 - Mark Hall || Project Grizzly Balance

Episode 597 - Mark Hall || Project Grizzly Balance

The Origins Foundation Podcast

Episode 597 – Mark Hall || Project Grizzly Balance

Episode Overview

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Context and Genesis of Project Grizzly Balance

2. Consequences of the Grizzly Bear Hunting Ban

A. Diminished Science and Management Capacity

B. Impact on Conservation and Human Populations

3. Grizzly Bear Biology & Science-Driven Management

4. Social Value and the Role of Sustainable Use

5. Project Grizzly Balance: Goals and Strategic Actions

6. How to Get Involved

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Key Timestamps

Conclusion

The Origins Foundation Podcast

Episode 597 – Mark Hall || Project Grizzly Balance

Episode Overview

Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Context and Genesis of Project Grizzly Balance

2. Consequences of the Grizzly Bear Hunting Ban

A. Diminished Science and Management Capacity

B. Impact on Conservation and Human Populations

3. Grizzly Bear Biology & Science-Driven Management

4. Social Value and the Role of Sustainable Use

5. Project Grizzly Balance: Goals and Strategic Actions

6. How to Get Involved

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

Key Timestamps

Conclusion