← The Origins Foundation Podcast
The Origins Foundation Podcast
Episode 599 - Corina Jordan || Protecting Game In New Zealand
00:49:56
Robbie connects with Corina Jordan, the new CEO of the Game Animal Council of New Zealand—a statutory authority that provides advice to the Minister of Hunting and Fishing in New Zealand (currently the Honorable James Meager, who was a recent guest on the show as well)—to talk about herds of special interest and other exciting developments in New Zealand hunting. New Zealand is an incredible hunting landscape, facing many of the same issues as other hunting communities, but also holding unique opportunities to truly cement a hunting legacy—from the Sika to the Wapiti herd—and to establish the critical management plans needed for the future.
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- [00:00]
A
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- [00:36]
B
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- [01:06]
C
Corinna Jordan is the new CEO of the game Animal Council in New Zealand. The Game Animal Council is a statutory authority that provides advice to the Minister of Hunting and Fishing in New Zealand. They used to provide advice on game animals to the Department of Conservation Minister or the Conservation Minister and now they directly report to the Hunting and Fishing Minister, Hon. Minister James Meagher. Corinna used to be the CEO of Fish and Game, another authority that was over almost like the fishing sector of New Zealand, and now has come across to the Game Animal Council replacing Tim Gale. He's been on the podcast before. We talk about the exciting times in New Zealand right now around hunting, specifically the herds of special interest of the Seeker herd as well as the Wapiti herd and what the path forward is to get that in place. A fantastic podcast, fascinating podcast of an area in the world that if you have not hunted yet, put it on your bucket list to do it because it's incredible. Enjoy this conversation and if you have any interest about New Zealand, reach out to us or reach out to the Game Animal Council. They'll put you in touch with someone who can give you more information. So there's a reason why I started Blood Origins and that reason is simple is that I wanted to convey the truth about hunting.
- [02:39]
D
It brings awareness to non hunters that it's more than just killing animals.
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E
How do I start it? Brittany?
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C
My name.
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E
Does my hair look okay?
- [02:52]
C
My name is Mike Axelrod. Start again. Yeah, I hated it too. Braxton, you said something in the car to me. You said that you were living on borrowed time. There's a perception around who hunters are, what we're supposed to be. And a feminist that works for a non profit that is a hunter that has only eaten wild game from the last 20 years is likely not the thing that people think about when it comes to a hunter. So the best cure for an introvert is a podcast in which you're forced that forced them to actually speak because it's the point of an audio medium like a podcast. And you also have video on. So if you want to watch this, you can watch it on YouTube. Go to the Origins Foundation YouTube page and you can find us. I met you November, no, October last year for the very first time. You are not in the role that you are in today, but a very similar role. Karina Jordan, welcome to the Blood Origins podcast. We had a fantastic connection in October when I went to the Seeker show in New Zealand. Then you were the CEO of Fish and Wildlife.
- [04:14]
E
Fish and Game in New Zealand.
- [04:16]
C
See, I thought it was going to be Fish and Game. I was like, no, it can't be Fish and Game because Game Animal Council is the same name. No, it's got to be the different name I was trying to remember. But Fish and Game. And now you are the Executive Director of the Game Animal Council took over from a good dear friend of ours, Tim. Tim Gale. And yeah. Welcome to the to the Origins Foundation Podcast. I'm so excited to have you.
- [04:40]
E
Thanks, Robbie. I'm really excited to be here.
- [04:43]
C
The. I know we've been trying to to get you on for quite some time and there's a little bit of things happening in the New Zealand landscape right now, which is why we wanted you to be on because we obviously have a global audience to this podcast, but we have obviously spoken a lot about New Zealand. People know us in New Zealand. We've got a very large fingerprint in New Zealand and I think a lot of people in the world know about New Zealand because of the work that we do. And so naturally I wanted to have you on to talk about the Game Animal Council sort of explanation it and then we'll dive into all sorts of other things.
- [05:23]
E
That sounds brilliant.
- [05:25]
C
So explain. So for people that don't understand, the Game Animal Council is something that's very, very unique in New Zealand. And I don't want to trip myself up in explaining what it is. What is the Game Animal Council.
- [05:39]
E
So the Game Animal Council, it's a statutory organization over here in New Zealand. It has the function to directly advise our Minister for Hunting and Fishing. Obviously that is a new portfolio for New Zealand and just came in, James.
- [05:52]
C
Meagher, we just had him on the podcast. Amazing dude.
- [05:56]
E
He's great and super passionate about hunting and fishing. So we're very lucky to have him as our minister.
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C
But before the Hunting and Fishing minister was in place, who did gak report to?
- [06:06]
E
We reported to the Minister for Conservation and that's the same as Fish and Game. So there was originally Fish and Game as a statuary organisation representing hunters and anglers in New Zealand, focusing on game bird management and sports fishing. In New Zealand we have trout and salmon as well as some coarse fish. And then the Game Animal Council came into being in around about 2013. So super new organisation. And the organisation was put in place to represent the interests of large game hunters. So think Shami and ta and wild pigs and red deer, that type of thing. And back then both organisations reported back through to the Minister for Conservation. We've also got the Department of Conservation. It gets very confusing. And then about three years ago or so this government put in place the Minister for Hunting and Fishing. And so now the organizations that represent hunters and anglers in New Zealand have a Minister for Hunting and Fishing. So very exciting. I think probably one of the first in the world.
- [07:02]
C
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- [11:05]
E
So we get some crown money, just a little bit. So we are a public entity. The minister appoints our council and then the council runs us. So got a ministerial appointed council of around about 9 at the moment from. Appointed from our hunting community across New Zealand and a lot of them regionally based. So that's super exciting. Forms that direct connection between the Game Animal Council and our hunters on the ground. So a really nice model there. And we don't.
- [11:33]
C
So are you considered a governmental employee? Are you a public service employee?
- [11:38]
E
Public entity. Yep.
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C
So public but owned. Who owns you?
- [11:44]
E
So we report through to the minister for hunting and fishing. No, it means we have this level of. Yeah, it means super confusing. It means we have this level of autonomy. So from the government of the day where we can represent the hunters and represent the hunter's voice for the minister. So that direct connection. So the Department of Conservation in New Zealand is a crown entity essentially and they.
- [12:13]
C
Governmental agency. Governmental agency.
- [12:14]
E
A governmental agency, yes. So they are the managers on the ground for large game in New Zealand under the Conservation act and other pieces of sort of conservation legislation.
- [12:25]
C
And Game Animal Council operates like essentially a council or commission off to the side providing advice, independent advice to the minister.
- [12:35]
E
Yes, yeah. And working with, you know, the Department of Conservation and our other, you know, sector sort of crown entities and then working with hunters as well. We do a lot of education, so we've got quite a wide portfolio. We create guidelines and standards for guides and safety and various things like that. So quite significant functions under our statute.
- [13:00]
C
So it's interesting because here's the thing that I've gotten a lot of flack about is obviously all the big game in New Zealand are. I'm going to just use all of the terminology, feral, non native, invasive, whatever else you want to call them, or a game species, a game resource. And the Game Animal Council's job is to protect the game resource even though it is non native. So far so good.
- [13:34]
E
That's right. Doing well. Yep.
- [13:37]
C
So the point of. And here's the argument I had with someone. I'd love for you to add your 2 cents because I don't believe there's any place else in the world where the phrase hunting is conservation is more relevant than New Zealand. And the person I was arguing with said, no, that is a trope. We actually conserve to hunt. And I said, I understand what you're saying, I. E. We don't want to eradicate all of the game species because that means we have nothing to hunt. But My thought process is one, eradication is impossible and management is needed to conserve for biodiversity, management for biodiversity maintenance, specifically in the New Zealand landscape, like a Fiordland national park, like Kaimanawa's or Carwickers. And as such, as the management tool that it is, as hunting as being the management tool, it is conservation because of the benefit that comes from that activity. And yes, it does mean that we still have things to hunt, it does still mean that we get better hunting, but the actual action is conservation.
- [15:03]
E
I tend to agree with you, Robbie. I mean, I think people think about this in different ways, but from my perspective, if you take care of the environment and you have a healthy environment, then that provides the foundation to have healthy animals. And that includes our game animals, we call them valued introduced species over here, which recognises that they're introduced, but also recognizes that they've got significant value for communities, you know, for hunting and for tourism and for their own intrinsic values of being there within our landscape. We're very lucky. We have tar over here in New Zealand, which are wild in our landscape. It's the only part of the world, I think, where you can hunt wild tar, endangered in their own country, the Himalayans.
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C
You can get a couple of tags in Nepal. Not a lot of tags, but I think there's, I think half a dozen or so tags to hunt in Nepal, but nothing like New Zealand.
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E
That's right. So we're having conversations with our hunters at the moment around the challenges that we're seeing in New Zealand. We talk about social license and you'll know a lot about that internationally. Right? You know, the permission that you get from your wider society to undertake that activity that you're passionate about. So we talk about that a lot and we're changing our conversation in New Zealand so that hunters are conservationists. They're conservationists first. They're managing a population to preserve the environment so that population can be healthy, you know, so we have healthy animals to hunt, really good resource, and so that they can go out and hunt those animals and bring on the next generation of hunters. They can enjoy it for their family and their communities and their kids. You know, mental health, physical wellbeing attributes, beautiful, free range kai for the table, all that sort of thing.
- [16:41]
C
Kai, for everybody's edification, is food. Food within the Maori language. No, you're absolutely right. And so. But obviously that position is a very defensive position, right, because it's like you're. You're on the back foot already. It's a. It's an introduced species it does harm to the native environment, does harm to the native flora, yet you're defending its place in the landscape.
- [17:11]
E
Yeah, exactly. We've just been through what we call, you know, a select committee process. It's like a court process over here in New Zealand. And they were talking about the Game Animal Council act, and they're making some changes in that so we can bring in this new tool called who's a Special Interest, which I know that we'll talk about later, but it was really amazing.
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C
What do you call. What do you create as an acronym? Because James Meagher actually quite liked my acronym.
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E
What was your acronym?
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C
Special Entrance. I want to hear. Do you have an acronym?
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E
Hy.
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C
I called it a hosie. Oh, I like that.
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D
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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E
So where the intonation goes, I suppose. Right, well, I'll have to. I'll have to practice your hosie. Yeah.
- [17:49]
C
Next time you talk to me, guys. I heard you talk. I heard Robbie was talking about a hosie.
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E
Yeah, well, he is the boss. Minister Mega.
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C
Yeah, exactly.
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E
He says. Goes. Yeah, I'll take my lead from him.
- [18:02]
C
Before. I know. Before you get into the select committee process, I actually. Because that's something that I want everyone to understand. And what's happening in New Zealand right now. It's happening right now. What has led us to this point in time.
- [18:19]
E
Yeah, I suppose it's back to your point. Right. We've got this really polarizing conversation happening in New Zealand at the moment, where part of our community is asking for our native habitats to go back to being essentially pristine. So they don't want any introduced species within these habitats at all.
- [18:36]
C
And this includes not even humans, by the way. In certain places, they don't even want humans.
- [18:41]
E
Well, yes, we won't talk about the rationale level of that argument. I think we'll all probably have opinions on that one. The ability to make our environment.
- [18:49]
C
And they don't want us staying in. What's the other one? Oh, they also don't want us staying in our five star luxury lodges that we have built up in these wilderness areas.
- [18:57]
E
Yeah, Y.
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C
As. As hunters, we want all the proper stuff. Anyway, bye. Sorry, I. I keep leading you astray.
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E
That's right, Robbie. But anyway, on that one, our hunters are sending in photos of where they stay in the bush, which is generally, you know, on the floor of the bush. Yeah. In bivvies and little tents and things like that. So it's great. Our five star luxury lodges. Yeah. So really polarizing conversation in New Zealand. They're actually really, really Serious. So, you know, something that we really need to front up to and we're significantly working on over here. So we've got part of our community wanting all these species gone. They just want them eradicated. And they really don't see the role in hunters and managing these species at all. They just consider hunters as going in there and taking the biggest males and leav the rest and actually promoting large populations. And this is, you know, it's a significant brand issue, I think, for our hunters that we need to really start to address. And then part of our community, you know, values these animals in the environment, even if they're not hunting. You know, they like seeing them there. It's sort of like the trout in the waterway. They don't see that as an introduced species. They just see it as a reflection of an ecosystem, you know, charismatic animal or fish in their environment and they enjoy seeing them. And then part of our community, obviously a large part of our community, they hunt and they gather as part of who they are. It's strongly embedded in our Mori culture. You know, historically it would have been mora and different species that they were hunting, but they are a hunter gatherer culture as well. Mori. So yeah, and so the conversation really is about, I think, you know, there's that polarizing part of that conversation about not having them at all and then having them there. I think for the majority of New Zealand, I think the conversation's going to be about how many to have where. And I think that's where our hunters are at as well. And so what we're really seeing in New Zealand is hunters stepping forward. We've got the development of what we call foundations. So the Seeker foundation, the Red Deer Heritage foundation, the Wapiti foundation, just to name a couple. There's quite a few more that are emerging as well. We've now got. Our Rakiora Whitetail Trust is established. So that's pretty exciting. Yeah, very exciting for our white tail.
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C
Stewart Island.
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E
Beautiful, iconic. Just. I've got to do a plug for New Zealand. If you, if you're a hunter and you haven't been to New Zealand, you are seriously missing out. We have amazing hunting and iconic country. Come and have a look. Friendly.
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C
You're probably going to get hate for that because the last time I was like on a podcast saying, guys, you just, you have to go hunt New Zealand because you can hunt from, you know, with outfitters in some luxurious places to immense amounts of public land that you need hardly a permit. There's no tags. Shoot what you want when you want, however you want, just get there. I got so much hate saying, don't tell anybody about New Zealand. Don't let anybody know about this gem that's down here.
- [21:48]
E
That's right. New Zealanders, we like our hidden places and our hunters are very reclusive, so they're sort of a little bit like our kiwi. They want to keep their head down and come out in the dark. Yeah. So they don't really want a lot of people coming out, but it's phenomenal. But it's amazing. And they want to hold it because. Cause it's such an incredible place to be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, this conversation's really serious and it played out in the courts just recently. And so I think there's a real role and we're thinking about this at the moment and starting to. The hunters are joining our Fishing Games rewild campaign. I started that three years ago. And this is a really important social license campaign. And it's really about this conversation around how hunters are putting back to conservation. So they're reducing the size of these herds so that our herds are healthier, so they're having a less impact on the environment and so they're providing a recreational resource. And also what we know is that our conservation in New Zealand is really, really expensive and we're losing our volunteer network as they're aging out, let's just say. So hunters are perfect to step into that space. So they undertake activities which are offset by hunter dollar to reduce the taxpayer cost for conservation in New Zealand and managing these hoots.
- [22:55]
C
Yeah. So the whole. Correct me here if I'm wrong, but the thing that kicked this whole thing up off, that has now led to the select committee. You. You made mention of it. It was a court case, essentially. Forest and Bird decided to bring the Wapiti foundation into court because of the loophole that is the. The Wild Game act, that is that says that you must. Right, You. You must aim to eradicate all introduced species. And what's happening in the Wapiti foundation is they say, well, we know we can't, which is the premise here, which is the big thing here. It's like eradication is almost impossible, logistic, everything. So let's manage the best we can. It's the silver, not silver star, the gold star standard for wildlife management in the world. What the Wapiti Foundation's doing, they do it for the world. Anybody can go to Fiordland, experience what they're doing. They put trap lines down to help native flora Native fauna, they're maintaining the path network, the trail network for anybody to access the huts, maintaining the huts for anybody to stay in. And Forest and Bird didn't decided, no, no, no, no, no, they're not doing a good enough job because of this loophole. And so we're going to drag them into court, wasting money on both sides of the coin and letting everybody see the truth here, which is you don't want them to do anything. What are you doing? Forest and Bird, you're doing nothing in comparison. And so that's what started the whole process, to say, well, look, we need to figure out a way to stop this, like, persecution. We're doing great work and we keep getting stopped by an organization like Forest and Bird taking us to court all the time. So all the money that we need to do the work that we need to do in Fiorden is being wasted in the courts. So the path of the herds of special interest is now like, okay, we need to do this because as I understand it, if you do get a hosie, then you are free of persecution of that specific species in a specific area. Is that correct?
- [25:16]
E
That's right. So we've got national parks in New Zealand and we've also got really old law. And that law in national park says that introduced animals need to as far as possible, be exterminated. And so forests signed onto that and they said, hey, Doc's working with these hunters, the Feudal and Wopidi foundation, and that we don't think they're operating in a way that's consistent with this conservation or national parks law framework. So that talks to two.
- [25:43]
C
And it's true, though, let's be honest. Let's be honest for a second.
- [25:47]
E
They're right, they're right.
- [25:48]
C
Legally, they're right, they are right. But practically they're very wrong.
- [25:52]
E
That's right, yeah. So we're saying, you know, these animals are iconic. This is beautiful. The Fiordland is stunning. It's an iconic, massive landscape. It's, you know.
- [26:06]
C
The Amazon on top of the Himalayas.
- [26:09]
E
Yeah. And it just has a feel about, about it. It sort of resonates with your soul when you're in there. So you've got these beautiful animals in this stunning landscape that's really difficult to get to. And it's a tough environment to sort of live in for any length of time. And then you've got forest and birds saying, you know, no, you need to eradicate these animals when most people just can't even get in there. And then you've Got the field and Wapiti foundation that's been operating for at least the last sort of 20 years, I suppose that has got a really successful model where they are managing this herd, the Wapiti herd, better than anywhere else in Fiordland. It's a small part of Fiordland. They're achieving better outcomes for our indigenous populations, like our native birds. They're undertaking predator control, like with stoats. They're doing that. All. All of it's funded by hunters. And the Fiordland bush in that area is healthier than anywhere else in Fiordland. And so it's just. It's like a legal challenge which is based on, you know, theory and these principles, which are extremely outdated and which ultimately will result in worse outcomes for our conservation estate and our national parks than what we're seeing in the Fiordland Wapiti foundation being able to achieve in that area of this. Of this beautiful forest area.
- [27:22]
C
Yeah. So the hosier has now been moved forward. How did it get to the select committee stage now that we're. It's almost like, if you look kindred in America, it's now in a committee at the federal level in which people are presenting testimony in favor or opposed to the idea. Right. How did it get there?
- [27:44]
E
That's right. Well, so the herd of special interest, or the hosie, it's a tool under the Game Animal Council act, and it's the first tool of its type in New Zealand. And it says, we've got herds in New Zealand which have value and we should manage them for their values as hunting value while also achieving conservation outcomes. Those conservation outcomes in New Zealand come first. So it says, achieve both, but make sure you achieve those conservation outcomes. And so it hasn't really been implemented before. So we're going through this process of actually testing this new legal instrument or this new legal tool under the Game Animal Council Act. And it's having some challenges. And that's what that select committee was about, was about making some changes to the herds of special interest tool so that we could have these herds in national parks and exempt them from, you know, the National Parks act, which says, exterminate all these animals.
- [28:35]
C
And the changes were very, very simplistic changes to the act, which is just language to say, you go ahead with language cause I'm gonna mess it up. What did you make? What did you change?
- [28:47]
E
It says that they're not subject. These animals are not subject to extermination. So if you had a herd of special injections. Yeah, they're not subject to the extermination requirements in the National Parks Act. We call it section 4.2B. Yeah.
- [29:02]
C
Oh yeah, that's what I. That's what I was.
- [29:05]
E
It rolls off the tongue. Yeah. But in a simple way, New Zealand's having this conversation about valued introduced species, large game, their place in New Zealand. And New Zealand as a country is working through some new legal tools. So there's conservation law reform, there's obviously the Game Animal Council act, which is new, and we're trying to work out how that's going to land on the ground. And there's work to strengthen the Game Animal Council and the Act. We've got this new tool that we're trying to land on the ground while we've got some pressure from the environmental NGOs such as Forest and bird, which are saying no, no to these animals and no to this tool.
- [29:38]
C
So we have. So currently, is the select committee still meeting right now or is it finished with testimony?
- [29:45]
E
It's finished hearing from people. So we had amazing engagement from.
- [29:50]
C
Amazing.
- [29:51]
E
It was amazing.
- [29:51]
C
Your like, your testimony like. And again I've. I've said this on LinkedIn, I've said this to you on text message and again, correct me if I mess up what you said, but you said New Zealand doesn't have a game animal problem, we have a game animal management problem.
- [30:10]
E
That's right. What was really, what was sort of resonating with me through the select committee is everyone was saying, well, you know, the environmental NGOs and that, you know, sort of, you know, that view where they were saying we want these animals gone but keep the status quo framework. I couldn't get it. So I was like, well, the status quo framework is actually not working for us because we have more of these animals in some parts of the country than ever than we've ever had before. We actually do have, you know, problems in some parts of New Zealand in relation to these animals which are eating the habitat out and then that's impacting on the health of these animals and that's this. And that's the status quo framework that they're asking for. So I had to make the point that we don't have a game animal management, you know, we don't have a game animal issue in New Zealand, but we 100% have a game animal management issue. And that's why we need change and that's why hunters are stepping forward to say that we can be part of the solution to result in better environmental outcomes while sustaining these herds that are healthy. And provide a fantastic hunting resource and a resource for our communities in New Zealand. Also, we've got communities that rely on the bush kitchen for their dinner. You know, they're remote communities. They a little bit socioeconomically sort of challenged. Maybe they just don't have the connection or the ability to access some of those resources. But they're rich in the fact that they can pop out to their bush kitchen. They, you know, they hunt and they gather and they can bring this beautiful food home and feed their communities. And so that's also part of the story.
- [31:35]
C
Yeah, no. Hundred percent. Very, very well said. Again, your testimony was great. Gwynne Thurlow's with nzda, which is. My hat was fantastic. I don't have a gak hat, so I couldn't wear a hat.
- [31:48]
E
I will send you one. We're working on that at the moment. Yeah, it's blaze orange, so it'll protect you from, you know, very visible in the bush.
- [31:57]
C
Yeah. So the testimony was fantastic. So give us like, what happens from here.
- [32:06]
E
The select committee is considering all the evidence. I think they're probably receiving some written evidence in. I know they've asked us some questions and we're pulling that together at the moment. We'll get it back through to them and then they will be reporting back to our parliament, New Zealand Parliament, I think, by the 30th of October. From there it's going to go. They say the bill goes through a couple of readings. That's the parliament considers it a couple of times and then they'll make their final decision. We're hoping the law will land in some way, shape or form early next year.
- [32:37]
C
Okay, so is there anything we can do? We can't really do anything else. Right. It's done like the testimony is done. Obviously, there's internal politics now on internal politicians that are listening, that will be listening and getting the readings done internally. What does your gut say, Corinne?
- [32:56]
E
My gut says that I think this bill will go through. I'm not sure it's going to go far enough to give it the protections that it needs in the long term. So we, you know, we'll see. We've provided advice to the minister on this and we'll continue to advise the minister and the Department of Conservation on the issues that we still see within the legislation. But I think it will go through and then I think it's just going to be a process of seeing how we can implement this on the ground. So at the same time, what's happening is we're building herd Management plans. So the Department of Conservation is building herd management plans for these herds. That's another statutory instrument. Gets super confusing and that'll go through.
- [33:38]
C
But doesn't Fiordland have that already?
- [33:41]
E
They have their own that they're working through, but we need to turn it into a statutory instrument. So docs working on that at the moment. We're trying to advise doc they'll put something forward. It'll be again open for public submissions and then, and then we'll have to see where that lands. I think public submissions will probably be sort of early next year, maybe, if not before Christmas.
- [34:02]
C
So to dig in a little bit on that statutory management plan DOC that doc's creating is there. Who funds it? Who funds the implementation of that management plan? Because anything could be said in it. Anybody can write comments to say you need to add this, you need to add another thousand traps. That's all good and well, but in the implementation, who, who funds the implementation? Is it on the Fjordland Wapity foundation like it has been up until now?
- [34:32]
E
I think we're still going to work through that. But what we know is that 100% hunters will fund, fund it. They will either fund part of it or they will fund all of it. And I think we're still to work through that. So I can't preempt what the government's going to do, whether the government's going to decide to provide some crown funding to it. But currently hunters that are hunting the ballot in Fiordland pay for the management of this herd essentially through that ballot. And there's other income streams that we consider sort of as part of that, that help with those costs. But predominantly it's hunter led.
- [35:07]
C
Yeah, we gave about, I think $30,000 one year for a trap line. So yeah, there are nonprofit just like us, you know, seeking funds. It would be a shame though. And I could see the, the potential pitfall of, of an implementation plan being made, a management plan being made and almost pushing the Wapati foundation into the corner. And they are stuck because the management plan asks for X. And X is almost impossible with the amount of funding if no funding is given from the government. X is almost impossible with just hunter led funding.
- [35:50]
E
That's right. So we're advising, you know, Doc and we'll be advising the minister on making sure that the plan's practical and workable on the ground and it's focused on managing these herds and doesn't come into a whole lot of other functions around the conservation estate, which DOC should be implementing in Their own way through their own plans and their own funding mechanisms. And that's a very live conversation. So we're very aware of that and our role is to make sure that these plans are consistent with the Game Animal Council Act. They don't go further than that. They create the case law around what is actually required and they make sure that these are practical and workable on the ground for hunters for the Fiordland Wapiti foundation to manage our Wapiti herd while achieving those conservation outcomes in those areas.
- [36:33]
C
We've just talked about the Wapiti foundation, but Sika, the Sika Foundation's also in the mix right now in the Kaimano. Same thing's happening with them, same timeline, same everything.
- [36:43]
E
Yeah, they've slowed things down a little bit in that community so they can just engage with Mana Whenua. So those are our Mori communities in that area a little bit more and just make sure everyone's on the same page as they go through this process. It's really important that we keep our communities together. The Game Animal Council act and the foundations, we're really community minded and our focus is on engaging with communities and ground up solutions, as we call them, you know, because what we know is that, you know, really want to harness the passion of the community. These are the people that live in those environments. They're closely connected to these animals that we're valuing. That Ngti t Whiri Taua within that community, you know, they are hunters and gatherers. Part of their communities rely on going in and getting Sika and bringing that back to their far now. So it's important that we're all on this together and we're not going too fast with parts of our community. So that's just slowed down a little bit so we can reconnect and make sure everyone's comfortable with where we're going and then we'll boost forward again.
- [37:45]
C
What is being slowed down specifically? Is it the management plan creation, the herd management plan perspective of the secret foundation?
- [37:53]
E
That's right. So it's the herd management plan part of it. So the government, so the ministers received essentially two. Hozie proposes Wapiti being one, Sika being the other. And who's winning this? Who's winning this, Robbie? Yep. And the minister said, yeah, I think there's merit in here. Go and connect with the communities. And. Or he said to Doc, go and build these herd management plans and talk to people while you build them. And then Doc's doing that in the Kaimanawas and Kaweka's We've just said, hey, we need to slow down a little bit for our community, make sure everyone's on board and everyone's comfortable and then we'll go from there.
- [38:29]
C
Is Doc leading the writing of the management plan or is the Seeker Foundation, Wapiti foundation taking the lead and Doc looking and giving input?
- [38:40]
E
No, doc's been told by the Minister to write it. So they are holding the pen and they're just engaging with stakeholders. Game Mental Council is one of those stakeholders and obviously the foundations are strong stakeholders in this conversation as well.
- [38:55]
C
What about. We haven't talked about. We talked a little bit about TAR in the beginning, but we've not talked about the TAR Foundation. Obviously they are interested in this whole hosie conversation, but a tough, a tough sell. And I'll, you know, I might get some hate from Luke and stuff, but I think he'll understand. Not a tough sell, it's just more of a. Because you have to. You have to define a geography, as I understand it. And they're really, you know, there's not like a Fiordland area or the Kaimanoas and carworkers. Like, what does that look like in your brain for TAR in the future?
- [39:31]
E
Well, we're working through this at the moment. So they've got a really large range and they look like they have been spreading a little bit. I'm not sure, you know, that sort of. They do very well in the New Zealand landscape. They're fairly hardy. Yep. So they've got a large range, as we call it, and it takes into account a whole lot of different geographical areas. So we're working out what that looks like at the moment. And obviously what we've got to think about also is private land ownership. So we have game parks in New Zealand a little bit. So we'll have farmers, for example, that'll run these animals on their land and they'll open that up to hunting. And so that's an economic business. And so we're also thinking about how this works here. So obviously the Hosey Hozie Tool. Now you've got back up here. I'm going to have to go back to who's a special interest, which is a bit of a mouthful. Yep. That only applies to the conservation estate, so it doesn't apply to private landowners. But what we really. We know that, you know, these animals don't respect boundaries. You can't just say, hey, this is where your range is. Please don't go over onto that, you know, beautiful grassy paddock over there. Or that crop which they like. So we need to have a joined up approach in relation to managing these animals so we can achieve those outcomes and we don't have competing needs and different management styles over these land parcel ownership areas.
- [40:51]
C
Obviously Seeker and Wapiti are going to pave the way, right? They're going to. It's almost like a test bed for, for this whole like protection, non persecution you mentioned though. And I remember Gwyn talking about this in his testimony and his written piece that it may not. This, they, this may not be the be all and end all solution to no persecution happening. The be all and end all is to fix the Wildlife act, right?
- [41:22]
E
Oh 100%. Our conservation law is well outdated. It's absolutely draconian. So we need to really have a good look at it and I think the government has started looking at the conservation, we call it the Conservation Law framework, Conservation Act, Wildlife. So the Wild Animal Control Act, National Parks act, it's all blend together and there's a real need to take a hammer forward, hammer to it. So have a good look at it, unpack it and work it out again. Cause what we also need to work out is how do these animals fit within these pieces of legislation. We've got questions around who's managing and how they're managing them. Fish and games within that space as well. The Fish and Game act is being completely reviewed at the end of this year. They may have their own piece of legislation. So what we're going through in New Zealand is this period of rapid legislative change into this current government and consideration of our conservation estate, indigenous species and these introduced species is top of the conversation and is top of mind for hunters in New Zealand.
- [42:20]
C
Yeah, it's, it's certainly a, interesting time and what's the word I'm looking for it. It's an exciting time I would say in the New Zealand hunting landscape in that there's massive opportunities. We've never been in the position we're in right now for potentially getting things protected that you know, we are seriously investing in from a, from a hunter, conservationist perspective.
- [42:48]
E
So yeah, definitely. Yep, yep. We're sort of a little bit flying it while we're building it so it gets a bit shaky out there in the air a little bit. But I mean it is super exciting and we've got, you know, our people on the ground are amazing. We've got, you know, brilliant lawyers and planners and our hunters.
- [43:02]
C
And you have a minister, you have a minister for hunting and fishing.
- [43:05]
E
Yeah, that's right. And he's really passionate about making sure this works. I think there might be some sort of election promise sitting there saying that we're going to embed valued indigenous species within the legislation and make sure they're valued. So we'll be definitely holding this government to that promise.
- [43:17]
C
I like that. I like that. If people are interested in learning more about the Game Animal Council, you're about to become the CEO of both Game Animal Council and Fish and Game.
- [43:31]
E
Yes, that's right.
- [43:33]
C
Acting CEO, not full time, as I understand it.
- [43:36]
E
That's right. I'm not gonna be doing 40 hours with fish and game and then 60 hours with the Game Animal Council. So I'll be splitting my time between both organizations. Just to be clear, the organizations aren't being amalgamated, but they're just gonna share me as a resource just to make sure that both are in good nick going through this sort of period of legislative change. What we know is that our communities are the same. You know, I go into a room and I'm talking to hunters and I'll ask them, how many of you fish, you know, who buys a Fish and Game license? And about 80% put up their hand, you know, so we're dealing with the same communities of interest and they've got the same values. And so it just makes sense to share a strategic brain, I suppose, and a front person to make sure we're all going in the same direction. We call it, you know, and the walker paddling in the same direction together. A walker is a. A mori name for a canoe. And you know, we don't want to be going in separate directions, especially when we've got such massive challenges around Social License, when we've got this pushback in relation to pest versus introduced species and we've got this large scale legislation reform. So super exciting time. I'm really looking forward to it. I'm sure it's going to be absolutely fine. Fishing Game's an amazing organization. I've got some big challenges.
- [44:48]
C
How long were you the CEO of Fish and Game?
- [44:50]
E
Close to three years.
- [44:52]
C
Okay.
- [44:52]
E
Yeah. So we undertook, we built the, you know, we built the Social License campaign. We had started a big modernization process across the organization and that was working well. We, you know, looked at our licensing systems. Fish and Game actually just announced changes to their licensing, family licensing system the other day, which treats women a little bit more equitably as license holders. So big step up there for New Zealand.
- [45:14]
C
I like that. I like that. But also, before I let you go, I do want to mention something that you Mentioned at the beginning, which I reached out to you and said kudos, kudos, kudos in that. You guys, the Game Animal Council, you said you started at Fish and Game, have absolutely grabbed a hold of the word rewilding in a way that is beneficial, beneficial to hunting. Unfortunately, rewilding is being used here in America and in Europe as like the anti hunters stance for reintroducing things that, you know, shouldn't be reintroduced and all sorts of other things. So kudos to you.
- [45:53]
E
Well, that's right. We thought we might take the term and it just resonates much more with hunters, right. We're out there, we're sort of wild in our souls and our spirits and we want to go hang out wild places and you know, this adventure and hunt these beautiful animals and you know, be self sustaining. And so it really resonates with New Zealanders over here in relation to hunters rewilding. And what we're trying to do is get wider communities interested in this. Right. You know, so we talk about the mental and physical health, well, beings. We talk about getting kids off devices and back out into nature. We've got an issue in New Zealand where, you know, our mokuponas, our children are, you know, strapped to social media and on their laptops all the time. And we want to really get them out of nature and get their hands dirty and teach them some practical skills. So it's really good for them. And also we should be able to be able to go out there and get dinner for the table and bring it back and feed our family. We've got our meat. Our wild meat in New Zealand is just outstanding. The venison, the quality of it is incredible. Sika meat. I think I'm having a competition at the moment actually what is the best tasting venison. So if anyone wants to engage or provide feedback to me on that one at this stage, I think Seeka's winning. But I've been told whitetail is pretty amazing and red deer at certain times of the year. So, you know, we've got to work through this. Yeah.
- [47:07]
C
Are you the taste tester? Are you like the, the decider deciding vote on this?
- [47:11]
E
Yeah, I'm always the deciding vote. So, you know.
- [47:18]
C
But yeah, kudos to that. The, the rewilding video that you guys put out was amazing. It was the who's who of New Zealand hunting. You had Willie Dooley, you had the Seeker foundation guys, you had the Whopperty foundation guys, you had Adam from Wapiti foundation, if I remember. You're in on the hill. Talking about rewilding was very well done.
- [47:38]
E
It was very well done, yes. I was actually just up there hunting. We call them mountain partridge. So, Chuka, you'll probably say that a different way as well there, Rob.
- [47:46]
C
Chukka. Yeah, Chukka.
- [47:47]
E
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So we were hunting. I was hunting Chukka with Mr. Greg Dooley. He's lucky enough to. I was lucky enough to be taken out on the. I call it mountains. He, he. I think he considers them to just be rolling hills, but honestly, they had snow on the top of them. So obviously as mountains hunting behind us. Beautiful dogs, these mountain partridge. And I thought I'd just film a little rewild campaign. Social media post up there and then everyone just got behind it. It was brilliant. Our hunters over here are incredible. Yeah. Such a pleasure to work with.
- [48:17]
C
I'm a big fan of New Zealand. Big fan of New Zealand hunters. Thank you for being so extroverted on your podcast today. Really appreciate it.
- [48:26]
E
I'm gonna have to go and recover now. I've got some horses to pet.
- [48:32]
C
If people want more information on the Game Animal Council, where can they find it?
- [48:35]
E
Oh, gamer. Go onto our website. Game Animal Council, www.game animal council. Have a look there and you'll find everything that you need to know.
- [48:43]
C
I've got lots of CO. NZ.
- [48:46]
E
CO. Yep.co.nz and we've got a lot of information around Hozie. Hosie as well, and the legislation process that's going on and a whole lot of education material on. On hunting and how to get better at hunting and where to go.
- [49:01]
C
Perfect. Corinna, thank you so much. I know this is not the last time we're going to have you on the podcast. Keep us up to date on the process and what's going on and if there's anything that you like. Hey, Robbie, I want to talk about this. Know that this platform is open to you. It was open to Tim. It's open to you.
- [49:17]
E
Thank you so much. Really appreciate your time.
- [49:20]
C
Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening. As always. Leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.
- [49:33]
D
This is the Hunt Stand podcast. I'm your host, Will Cooper. Each week we bring you real hunting stories, proven strategies and dive into the topics hunters care about most. From chasing your first whitetail to planning a western elk hunt, we cover the conversations that matter to every hunter out there. Tune in, subscribe and join the hunt only on the Huntstand podcast.