The Origins Foundation Podcast

Episode 603 – Tony Schoonen || The Dark Numbers Of Poaching in the US

Date: October 30, 2025
Host: The Origins Foundation (Robbie)
Guests:

• Tony Schoonen, Executive Director, Boone & Crockett Club
• Dr. John Gassett, Wildlife Management Institute (WMI) & lead researcher, Poach and Pay Project

Episode Overview

This episode delves into the surprising scale of poaching in the United States, drawing back the curtain on the so-called "dark number"—the vast majority of poaching incidents that remain undetected or unreported. The discussion, powered by findings from the Boone & Crockett Club’s "Poach & Pay" program and research led by Dr. John Gassett, reveals the hidden costs and overlooked impacts of poaching on conservation, law enforcement, and public perception. The conversation aims to distinguish between hunters (legal) and poachers (illegal), unpack the motivations and typologies of offenders, and outline critical steps forward in law, education, and public engagement.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Perception and Reality: Poaching is Not Just an African Problem

• [05:15] Many mistakenly believe poaching is an issue only overseas, but the US faces a vast, largely unseen poaching crisis.
• “Just watching the mainstream media, you know, interchange the word poacher and hunter caused a great deal of concern for us because we know that obviously hunting is legal and poaching is not legal.” – Tony Schoonen [06:50]

2. Origins and Aims of the Poach & Pay Project

• [10:48] Boone & Crockett lacked in-house scientific capacity to study poaching’s real magnitude, so partnered with WMI and independent researchers.
• Initial efforts focused on understanding state disparities in fines and restitutions and whether penalties truly deterred poachers.
• Goal: Use robust data to influence policy and funding streams for law enforcement and conservation.

3. The "Dark Number": Staggering Undetected Poaching Rate

• [18:26] State crime data and studies on other crimes revealed even violent offenses are reported less than 50% of the time; for crimes like larceny, the rate drops to ~26%.
• Poaching detection rate: Only about 4-5% of actual poaching incidents are detected by law enforcement.

  “We use 5% as a good round number is the detected rate by law enforcement.” – John Gassett [18:51]

• Implication: 95% go unseen, meaning the problem is exponentially greater than previously thought.
• The financial loss: $1.4 billion annually in restitution/fines, far outpacing Pittman-Robertson ($1B) and license sales ($1B).

  "That 1.4 billion is minimal. ... It's, it's larger than that because a lot of them don't get, they get more than the minimum." – John Gassett [22:58]

4. State Disparities and Enforcement Challenges

• Enforcement and penalties for poaching vary dramatically by state, with Western states tending to have stricter fines.
• Many judges treat poaching as a “victimless crime” and prosecute accordingly.

  “Way too many judges view poaching as a victimless crime.” – Tony Schoonen [21:24]

• Prosecution and enforcement rates lag detection rates even further.

5. Who Poaches, What Gets Poached, and Why?

• [24:02] White-tailed deer are the most commonly poached due to abundance and accessibility.
• Regional differences are significant but hard to pinpoint due to different species and demographic factors.
• Motivations:
  • Trophy poaching: 57% of law enforcement cases.
  • Opportunistic (cultural/traditional/‘folk crime’): Next largest group.
  • Subsistence (for food): Lowest motivator, contradicting common perceptions.

    "The least motivator... for poaching is subsistence." – Tony Schoonen [26:56]

• Deterrents include felony convictions, confiscation of equipment, suspension of license, but monetary fines are less effective.

6. Typologies and Social Culture of Poaching

• Some poachers are driven by deep-rooted cultural tradition (“folk crimes”) and don’t view their actions as wrong.
• Fascinating insight:

  “There’s two types of law. There’s man’s law and God’s law. God’s law is never wrong. Man’s law frequently is.” – John Gassett [30:33]

• In urbanizing areas or with overpopulated species (whitetail deer), commercialization isn't a simple answer due to public health, safety, and the risk of unintended consequences.

7. Deterrents and What Actually Works

• [32:07] Top deterrents:
  1. Felony conviction (loss of firearm/voting rights, substantial personal cost)
  2. Confiscation of equipment/vehicles/weapons
• Monetary fines rank low as a deterrent.

  “They really don't care about fines. ... Felony conviction...should push for, especially for these animals, where the replacement value is higher than the felony theft level...” – John Gassett [32:48]

• Only a few states currently classify wildlife crimes as felonies, mostly in the West.

8. Policy, Legislative, and Community Action Ahead

• Four-point action plan:
  1. Legislative templates & lobbying for stricter penalties/felony classification.
  2. Prosecutor education (continuing education, webinars).
  3. Public & hunter education to build a culture of intolerance for poaching.
  4. Law enforcement enhancement (funding position via restitution, tech tools).
• Plans for an app enabling easy reporting (drop a pin, photo upload), now in grant-seeking phase.
• Social pressure: Changing public acceptance of poaching akin to shifting norms on drunk driving.

  “…you want to talk about a motivator… nothing more motivating than, you know, the opinion of your friends and family and neighbors.” – John Gassett [52:34]

9. Downstream Conservation Impacts

• [43:41] Undetected poaching distorts population estimates and impacts management (e.g., fewer legal hunting opportunities, underestimated population declines).
• Tag allocations and license revenues are affected, especially for limited species like elk or pronghorn, but even abundant species are impacted regionally.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Staggering Detection Rate:

  “So 95% of all poaching cases… for big game… are being detected by law enforcement.” – Robbie & John Gassett [18:51-19:08]

• Financial Loss:

  “The annual figure in terms of restitution and fines that are lost to poaching is $1.4 billion. … That’s more than both the other means of revenue for state agencies, the Pittman Robertson Act… and license sales.” – Tony Schoonen [22:09]

• Felony Classification as Key Deterrent:

  “The single most effective deterrent [is] felony conviction. Because anybody who's out there hunting or poaching either way is an owner of a firearm, most likely. And when you lose that right, that's a huge blow.” – John Gassett [48:05]

• Cultural Challenge:

  “There’s two types of law. There’s man’s law and God’s law. God’s law is never wrong. Man’s law frequently is.” – John Gassett [30:40]

• Community Power:

  “We want to do is Shame. … 50 years ago, drunk driving was a lot more socially acceptable than it is today. Why? It took a motivated public to change that perception.” – Tony Schoonen [37:21]

Timestamps for Critical Segments

• 04:24 – 05:15 | Anecdotes about hunting culture and public misperceptions of poaching in the US
• 10:48 – 14:23 | Partnership origins, lack of scientific data, and state disparities
• 18:26 – 19:08 | Discussion of crime reporting and poaching detection rates (dark number ~4-5%)
• 22:06 – 23:30 | Calculating the $1.4 billion annual loss from poaching
• 24:02 – 26:56 | What species are most poached, regional patterns, and poacher motivations
• 30:12 – 31:03 | Folk/cultural poaching and justifications
• 32:07 – 33:36 | Top deterrents: felony conviction & equipment confiscation
• 37:20 – 38:48 | Social pressure, parallels with drunk driving; plans for a reporting app
• 43:41 – 45:27 | Conservation impact: wildlife management, tag allocation, population estimates
• 48:05 – 48:24 | Loss of firearm rights as a powerful deterrent
• 50:31 – 52:24 | Timeline for legislation, public education, and justice system engagement

Next Steps and Call to Action

• Immediate Initiatives:
  • Legislative briefs to statehouses for the 2026 sessions
  • Public outreach—hunters encouraged to view poaching as unacceptable and to help report it
  • Prosecutor education and curriculum in development
  • Grant writing for a user-friendly, real-time reporting app
• Ongoing Efforts:
  • Continuing robust, independent science for policy advancement
  • Tracking impacts of legislative change and reporting victories (future podcast invites promised!)

Closing Thoughts

This episode exposes the massive gap in how we understand, detect, and prosecute poaching in the US—with 95% of incidents staying under the radar, costing the public and wildlife dearly. Tony Schoonen and John Gassett emphasize that changing the legal and cultural landscape is possible, but only with data, legislative courage, savvy public engagement, and—crucially—the participation of hunters and the broader public in shaming poachers, supporting enforcement, and holding peers accountable.

"Talking about it is one of the main things we can do and to vilify the people who commit these acts." – John Gassett [52:34]

Listen to this episode if you want to learn:

• The scale and financial cost of poaching in the US
• The difference between legal hunting and poaching—why language matters
• The sociology and psychology of poachers
• What actually deters poaching, and why fines alone don’t cut it
• What’s ahead in law, technology, and grassroots action to fight poaching

Explore more and stay tuned for updates on the legislative campaign, the app launch, and future conservation wins!