← The Origins Foundation Podcast
The Origins Foundation Podcast
Episode 605 - Wicus Diedericks || Rhino Horn Trade Back On After 50 Years?
01:02:44
Wicus Diedericks, owner of Rockwood Conservation, dropped a bomb on the rhino conservation world on Friday, when a court ruled that he can trade in rhino horn (devil is in the details). It’s not quite that simple, but the ruling stated that the CITES exemption for conservation-bred rhinos is part of South African law - i.e., he should legally be able to get an export permit for horns that have been dehorned from his herd. This is huge news for rhino conservation and potentially the legal mechanism by which rhino horn can be purchased by the east and the Middle East. This is absolutely breaking news, with this court decision occurring last Friday. We do not know the extent of the implications of the court ruling, we do know the MEC of the Northern Cape has 7 days to respond to the issuance of the export permit. We also know that in 2 1/2 weeks CITES COP starts in Uzbekistan and this will be the talk of the town there!
Loading summary
Transcript169 lines
- [00:00]
A
Vicus Diedrichs is the owner of Rockwood Conservation and he literally just dropped a bomb on the rhino conservation world. On Friday, a court ruled that he can trade in his rhino horn. Well, it's not that simple. The court ruled that the CITES exemption for conservation bred rhinos is part of South African law. This is the part of the cite's articles that has an exemption for conservation bred animals. You'll hear Vickers talk about millions of animals being used under this CITES exemption. The court ruling said export permits must be issued for horn from conservation breeding facilities. There should be no import permit required from the receiving country. And the mec, which is essentially like the governor of the Northern Cape, must decide on issuing a certificate within seven days. This is huge, huge news for rhino conservation. Huge news for potentially the legal mechanism by which rhino horn can be purchased by the east and by the Middle East. It's certainly a shake up. And with two and a half weeks before CITES cop starts in Uzbekistan, this is going to be the talk of the town. And so we wanted to get Vikas on the podcast to really talk through what happened, get an understanding of his operation, why he does what he does and the implications of this court ruling. So enjoy this podcast, Listen, share this podcast everywhere you can with all your friends. It's monumentous. So five years ago there was a reason why I started this movement. And the truth then is the truth now that we need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around what we do and who we are. There's a sweet spot with a gun, you know, too heavy and it's a burden to walk with. Too light and you whipping it. Why is the project so important to the hunting community?
- [02:01]
B
It's. It's a. I think it's not only important, I think it's. I think it's vital. I think it's. It's just in time. It's like snakes and ladders. You guys are climbing the ladder and then somebody does something stupid and you just slide that.
- [02:13]
A
That is such an amazing analogy. Snakes and ladders.
- [02:17]
B
Yeah.
- [02:17]
A
You know, ivory in, in my opinion was the plastic of its age. Okay.
- [02:22]
B
The expenses of going up.
- [02:23]
A
It goes a long way with families. We are families that do need it. Let me close this door because I have a little wiener dog. What you. Are you laughing because I said wiener?
- [02:33]
B
I'm really glad you finished the sentence out.
- [02:36]
A
I'm sorry the first happen. What are we doing here today? You're telling the whole.
- [02:52]
B
Vicus. I thought I was only going to see you in like Two and a.
- [02:55]
A
Half months over the show season. Like we typically, you know, bump into each other and say hello and catch up on all things that's happening. But I'll let you introduce yourself here, here shortly. But you dropped a bomb on the world, essentially. You realize that, right?
- [03:15]
B
Yeah, yeah, we, every, every year we see each other at the shows and remember, I think for the past two years I was telling you that we're busy with this litigation and you know, that, that someday we're going to get there, you know, but, but the legal process in South Africa is quite slow and it takes long, you know, so, yeah, so eventually we got there and on Friday we got that decision from the court.
- [03:48]
A
So yeah, was just unbelie. Like you, you couldn't, in our world, you couldn't move a step without hearing about it. So. Vicus Diedrich, welcome to the Origins foundation podcast. We wanted to do this like, right on the hot of the heels of the, the court decision. We'll get into that all over this podcast. But before we go any further, why don't you introduce yourself who you are, what you do.
- [04:13]
B
Yeah, so my name is Vicus Didrick. I'm the owner of Rockwood conservation. It's a 33,000 acre reserve in the Northern Cape of South Africa. And it's basically dedicated to rhino conservation. We've got more than 430 rhinos there, white rhino and yeah, you know, that's, that's what we do. So we also hunt, so.
- [04:42]
A
Because one of the things, just so that everyone knows, I think early on I was listening to a program about you and I was like, well, 400 rhinos, that's, that's pretty hostile. Sort of astounding, right, in terms of numbers, but I think the most like, astounding number that I've heard is you got like 40 of the rhinos out of Kruger originally, right?
- [05:07]
B
Yeah, 45.
- [05:09]
A
And how many? So, and Kruger right now has like an 80% loss of rhino.
- [05:16]
B
Yeah.
- [05:17]
A
Okay, this is setting up the scene here. This is setting up the scene here because you got 45 rhino from Kruger and if you were operating under the Kruger model, there's eight rhino left.
- [05:31]
B
Yes.
- [05:32]
A
And how many do you have from the 45? From that?
- [05:35]
B
45 over. 150 now, you know, so. So actually that score, like you say, is 150 versus 9, you know, if, if you take roughly 80% of them would have been dead by now. So, you know, that, that goes to show the difference between what's happening on private reserves and, and state reserves. Now, you know, I mean, obviously to safeguard a place like Kruger is almost impossible. You know, we've got our army in there, we've got a lot of people doing a lot of hard work, but it's just virtually impossible, you know, and then on top of that you've got corruption and you know, all the things that goes with that. And that's just why it's so important, you know, that private reserves get away to fund rhino conservation. Because now roughly 70% or more of rhinos in South Africa is on private reserves. Now previously, say 10, 15 years ago, it was the other way around, you know, and the majority say 70% plus was on state reserves. And, and obviously then funding is not such an issue because there's money from treasury, you know, there's this income from tourism, a lot of donor funding, et cetera, et cetera. But private reserve doesn't get that funding. You know, we, we get no subsidies, nothing. Zero, you know, so, so we have to make it work in a sustainable manner, you know, in a capitalistic world, I must almost say, you know, and.
- [07:25]
A
Of course, look guys, I'm a hunter, right? And when I go hunting, I like to figure out how to get my trophies back home as expeditiously as possible. Well, you don't have to look much further than safari specialty importers. We know that trophy importation can be quite a headache. That's why Safari specialty importer strives to make it as easy and hassle free as possible. They have access to a bonded warehouse. You won't be charged storage fees and you get a dedicated team that's readily available and will update you at every step in the process. They'll even go one step further. Safari specialty importers is working with us and they are going to donate $100 from every shipment that they work with to conservation projects that include anti poaching, community development and wildlife conservation. At the end of the day, choose to spend your money with a team that's dedicated to you and is dedicated to helping show how hunting is a great conservation model. Hassle free logistics, fuel and conservation go with Safari specialty Importers. Hunting and shooting suppressed have become the norm in over 42 states where suppressors are legal. The growing popularity of suppressors has even led to legislative changes. You might have heard some things around the big beautiful bill, right? Including the reduction of the NFA mandated tax stamp. Before you used to pay 200 bucks. And now starting January 1st of 2026, the tax stamp is going to zero. However, why wait until January 1st? Our partners silence Essential, great friends of ours, they're going to pay your tax stamp right now. So if you buy a banished suppressor or other popular brands that essentially are qualifying purchases, Silence Essential is going to cover the cost of the tax stand. They're going to save you 200 bucks right now, so make sure you don't miss out. Shooting suppressed. If you're in the market for a new suppressor, whether it's your first or your next one, visit silencescentral.com or call them 866-811-6536. Silence Essential is going to cover your tax stamp right now. They're going to simplify the submission process and deliver your suppressor with right to your door. Don't wait. Get your suppressor right now and start shooting. Suppress this season. Bushnell is eager to help you get set up for conservation success. That's right. They want to help you. The conservation and research community is dominated by good people doing good things and investing significant time and effort for the benefit of habitat and the species. So what do you need to do? Pretty simple. Send us your conservation story and, or your conservation wish. Could be managing whitetails, could be understanding your environment or species or something else related to conservation. What would you be able to do if you had a great trail camera setup? We will select the best story every other month and send you a camera bundle. Cell camera, normal SD camera, SD cards, as well as optics, everything you need to get set up for success. I can't wait to see what you submit. You can email us, DM us, message us, whatever you want. We are not hard to find. Good luck.
- [10:38]
B
Yeah. And, you know, so when I set out, I never had a plan to have so many rhinos, you know, I. Yeah.
- [10:46]
A
Why did you, like, what was the whole deal? Because nobody goes out and says, oh, I've got this dream of having 400.
- [10:53]
B
Yeah. No, so, you know, I, I farmed there with cattle and, and I thought, you know, cattle farming in that area is very marginal, so why not, you know, turn it, rewild the place and turn it into a game reserve.
- [11:09]
A
And Vikas, has this, has this farm been in your family a while or is this something that you bought?
- [11:15]
B
Yeah, I know it's something that I bought in around 2007, you know, so. And roughly to 2012, I decided, you know, let's rewild the place. And, you know, I just wanted a game reserved for, you know, me and my friends and family and, you know, we love the outdoors and, and to hunt. And so, you know, I never had any commercial dreams about the place, you know, and then in 2013 got the first rhino from Kruger and then also a few from national parks in Natal.
- [11:54]
A
And, and can, can we, can you just explain that process? Like when you go, when you get a rhino, what are you doing there? Because are you going on auction? Are you buying a runoff auction? Are these, are these government parks saying we've got too many, we're putting them up on auction? Are we giving them away? What's the situation?
- [12:12]
B
Yes, that was back then. Remember Kruger had more than 10,000 rhinos around 2010, you know, and, and that was more than enough for, for the park. And, and they put rhinos on auction every year. I think they sold roughly 100, 150 per year you back then. Now obviously they cannot. But yeah, so.
- [12:40]
A
And just Louisian flows the same thing.
- [12:42]
B
They had yearly auctions where they, they, they sold rhinos, you know, and that's where I bought them. And then in 2015 I had to first poaching, you know, and I, it was a rude awakening and I thought.
- [12:56]
A
Wow, you know, talk to me about that, talk to me about that 2015 poaching. Up until that point, had you been, had you been implementing anti poaching, anti suit, sort of anti poaching security measures or were you oblivious to it? Like, ah, it's never going to hit me. I'm, I'm way in the bush, nobody's going to find me.
- [13:14]
B
Well, to start off with, you know, we, the Northern Cape was a very safe area and there wasn't any poaching before 2014 in, in the Northern Cape. And so yeah, I had ranges but, but not in the intensive manner that we're doing it now. Um, and then, you know, we had the first poaching and another one in 2015. And around that time roughly more than a thousand rhinos were killed every year in, in South Africa. And, and I realized, shit, you know, if, if I want to keep my rhino safe, I have to do something extraordinary. And that's when I started to, to create intensive protection zones, you know, where, where I basically keep most of my rhinos and, and it, it's been very successful. Then around 2018, a friend of mine had a problem with rhinos that, you know, he couldn't look after more, you know, because of poaching, etc. Etc. And, and I took them on and yeah, but I'd say I can't remember the, the precise numbers now, but roughly almost 300 calves were born there at Rockwood, you know, so wow, but now the dilemma, you know, back when, when I bought the rhino in 2013, 14, we paid roughly about 750, 000 rands for a cow.
- [14:55]
A
Okay.
- [14:56]
B
But with poaching, the prices dropped to around, let's say, 100,000, 120, maybe 150,000.
- [15:03]
A
If you're lucky, just because of liability concerns and security concerns. Rhino just had no value anymore.
- [15:10]
B
Absolutely. You know, so you can imagine, you know, your whole investment is at risk if somebody comes and kill it. And the security concerns, you know, now all of a sudden there's people, dangerous people with guns walking around in your farm, you know, that wouldn't blink an eye to kill anybody that confronts them, you know, so people just got rid of their rhino and a lot of them were poached. And so the number of rhino owners dropped from. Yeah, I'm not sure about the statistics, but, you know, close to 500, down to probably just under 200 now, and just because nobody wants rhino. So my dilemma was, you know, it cost me around say, 450 to 500,000 rand to raise a rhino to say, about five years old, and you got only about a third, a quarter of that, you know, so it didn't make sense for me to say we were.
- [16:18]
A
Going to sell it, you know.
- [16:19]
B
Yeah, that, that wasn't the situation when I started out. And I realized the only way to make rhino conservation sustainable is, you know, through the selling of horn, you know, and I set out probably 2016, 2017, you know, started the fight and investigating how it would be possible.
- [16:48]
A
Yeah, well, because obviously this whole situation that we're going to sort of explore here, certain is not new. Right. There's somebody who's come before you, a guy called John Hume, who has, has tried this, but I think he did things a lot differently than you. He was almost set up. You know, I'm not very familiar with John Hume's setup, but it almost looked agricultural, Right. It was like, I've got these feedlots. I'm just growing more and more and more and more rhino. You, you operating very differently than John Hume, right?
- [17:32]
B
Yeah. So to start out, you know, I've, I've got a lot of respect for John. He's a good friend of mine and we talk often and, you know, unfortunately, the guy ran out of time. You know, he's, he's in his 80s and, you know, he was fighting this 10 years before me, and it was never his dream to have 2000 rhinos, I promise you. You know, but, but the same dilemma, you know, what what do you do with them? And, and you always have that hope that someday you're going to, you're going to win this fight, you know, and, and then places like Buffalo Dream Ranch, where, where, you know, John had his rhino and Rockwood would be safety nets, you know, for, for repopulating areas where rhinos have, have gone extinct. So, yeah, his approach was different. I had to obviously, you know, find a way to, to finance this and, and that's why I started hunting and you know, eventually also hunting of rhinos, you know, and that's where, you know, we met with, you know, going to the hunting conventions, etc. Yep. So, yeah, I think that that's basically the only difference. You know, I have obviously bigger land, but yeah, you know, eventually you've also.
- [19:07]
A
Got a different model of how you, you bring your rhinos, you sort of corral your rhinos, don't you, at night to sort of create the, what did you call them, bomas, Intensive protection zones.
- [19:18]
B
So eventually the cost of protecting rhinos is not a function of the number of rhinos you protect, it's the function of the area you protect. So if you have a relatively smaller area with a bigger number of rhinos, then obviously it's more cost effective and more effective. So that's also what John did. And unfortunately people that wasn't there got the idea that, you know, it's, it's very agricultural but, you know, desperate times calls for desperate measures, you know.
- [19:59]
A
Sure.
- [19:59]
B
And you know, Kruger is a good example of that. You know, it's, it's all very nice to see rhinos roaming around on, you know, big wild areas, but they getting killed, you know, and that's the reality.
- [20:17]
A
So let's maybe, let me ask, let me start the whole, like, idea behind the legal court case. Well, let's just start there. You decided, hey, we need to do something. You're being stymied. Explain to me why you're being stymied. Those people who have no idea about rhino conservation right now. Why are you in such a bind that forced you to start this legal proceedings?
- [20:43]
B
Okay, so I think let's take a few steps back. So the only way to trade, or let's rather say cites, the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Wild Fauna and Flora, governs the trade between countries and most of the world are signatories to that convention. Now, basically, for any species, Appendix one or Appendix two species to be traded internationally, that species must be downlisted. So in other words, rhino, or you get a permit. Or you get a permit. All right? But, but the permit is just part of the process. But, but the principle, Right, So if you've got, say, rhino, they're Appendix two, but the horn is Appendix one. So there's certain strict rules pertaining to rhino horn to trade it. And up till now, you know, that, that strict rules haven't allowed us to trade. Okay? So basically we had to go to CITES to ask them, listen, we want to trade. Please down list it from Appendix one to two. And then the rules would be more relaxed and then we would have been able to trade. But to get that decision, you must convince two thirds of the countries there to vote in your favor. And, you know, I realized.
- [22:27]
A
And these countries don't just vote individually, they vote in blocks. Like the whole European bloc votes. Exactly. And there's a significant anti.
- [22:37]
B
Use.
- [22:37]
A
Anti. It's a huge political lobbying system in which people that don't have rhinos, like Europe, like Western Africa, the Western African block, get influenced by different groups like a humane society or Peter or whatnot, to say, hey, vote no.
- [22:55]
B
Yeah, to downlisting. Yeah. So, you know, they, and, and, and I realized this. There's no way I'm gonna, you know, from, from where I'm sitting, you know, gonna have an influence on, on, on those countries. And it's, it's virtually impossible. So then I looked at societies and, and thought, you know, what. What other ways are there? So there's certain ex. You know, I must stress it. It's part of the Convention. It's Article 7.
- [23:26]
A
It's right in the beginning, written in the convention's articles.
- [23:30]
B
And those exemptions were allowed to facilitate trade. And the, the whole idea was to protect animals in the wild. So, so in the heading of cites, it tells you it's there for wild fauna and flora. So one of the things is what they call the captive breeding exemption. And there's basically two types. The one is for commercial purposes, and that would be typically something like a crocodile farm, where crocodiles are bred in captivity, they slaughtered and the skins are sold, endangered crocodiles, even things like sturgeon fish, you know, for, for caviar. And like I say, the idea was then there is a market for that product. People want them, but. But they get them from the wild. And that's putting pressure on the wild animals. They, they're being poached or, you know, legally, illegally, doesn't matter. And, and so, so the one is for commercial purposes and the other one is basically for conservation purposes. And, and that's what I was doing. And I realized, you know, this is exactly what I'm doing. I, I would qualify for this exemption and I would be able to, to export under this exemption. And then we applied for permits, but, you know, government didn't allow it. And then we decided to.
- [25:05]
A
So you, you, you, you saw this route, you saw this route of the exemption. You're like, hey, I'm assuming the government is dffe? Yes, in South Africa. Right. And you said, hey, dffe, here's the exemption that I'm looking at. I believe I qualify under this. I would like an export permit for rhino horn under this exemption. And government said, no, you're not getting one.
- [25:30]
B
Exactly. So it's not new. So, so that exemption, did John Hume try this? No.
- [25:38]
A
Did he go this route?
- [25:39]
B
No, he didn't, unfortunately. You know, like I say, you know, age caught up with a guy and, and you know, he just ran out of time and, and you know, he had, he had so many, how can I say, opposition to what he was doing. You know, he lived under continuous stress, you know, just from financing the project, etc. Etc. You know, the project was very controversial.
- [26:09]
A
It was not and it didn't need to be, but it was.
- [26:12]
B
Yes. So, but, but also, you know, it was not like, you know, you pick up cities and you realize, bang, this is the way. You know, I mean, we did a lot of research, we talked to a lot of people and, and until we realized, you know, that that path is, is the way to go. And then obviously people in DFFE resist it, you know, because I don't know, for, for some reason rhinos are treated different to any other species. That, that exemption is any specimen exported under that exemption is Code C. You know, on, on a, a CITES permit, there's a source code, and if it comes from the wild, it's Code W. But when it comes from a conservation breeding facility, it's Code C. Now, Code C is widely used by all countries and in fact, millions of specimens are exported between countries under Code C every year. South Africa has used it more than 26 million times. You know, so it's, it's not new. And you can think of all sorts of animals, you know, parrots, chimpanzees, tigers, name it, you know, are all exported under Code C. But for some reason, government wouldn't allow us to use Code C or that conservation breeding exemption. And so we applied for permits and they refused it. And then we went to court and to, to ask the court to, to review that decision, you know. Yeah. So, so long story short, on Friday.
- [28:05]
A
That was two years ago.
- [28:06]
B
Yes.
- [28:07]
A
On two years ago you got the, you got the response from government two years ago. No, you're not allowed to do this.
- [28:15]
B
Yes.
- [28:17]
A
And so you, you decided, let me talk to some lawyers and let's put this process in place and start the proceedings to see whether or not we could get a court adjudication on whether we're right or the government's right.
- [28:32]
B
Yeah, we basically started talking to the legal team way before we actually even applied for permits because we knew what was going to happen, you know, so we got our ducks in a row so that when they eventually refused it, you know, we had to plan. We knew exactly what, what the game plan is, what we should do, what the argument should be, et cetera.
- [28:58]
A
So, so talk to me. So obviously we're here, we're talking. It is Saturday morning. The decision came out on Friday. Talk to me. Exactly the con, the decision that came down.
- [29:14]
B
All right, so in refusing our permits, the mec, that's the basically the highest authority in the Northern Cape Province and nature conservation is a provincial function. So she is the issuing authority of the Northern Cape. All right, so she refused the permit and she, she basically said that, you know, we should have an import permit that we didn't have, which we, you know, then said in court we don't need anyway, that basically this came from the wild, although we were registered as a conservation breeding facility and that, that the, the non, that there wasn't a non detrimental finding to say that trade in rhino horn would not be detrimental for the, you know, for, for, for rhinos. So, so basically the court, then, you know, everything was presented and the court adjudicated that, you know, Article seven, paragraph five, that specific one, that specific exemption of CITES does apply in South Africa, it's part of our domestic law. And that the MEC must go back and retake a decision. But now taking into consideration that that is part of our law and that we don't need an import permit, that we don't need an ndf, and basically that opened trade from conservation breeding facilities.
- [31:17]
A
And that's what the C mark on cite stipulates. Right? So you can get, you get an exemption. That means the import country doesn't require a permit. Because that was a little bit confusing to me. You satisfied your side of the, of the game through the sea exemption, I. E. I don't need an export permit. But there's also two other things that are very important. One, the country that's bringing it in doesn't need an import permit, and two, it doesn't need an ndf, which is the non detrimental findings, which is really huge when it comes to like an NDF is really required when somebody says, okay look, we want to take from the wild lion, elephant, rhino, leopard, and when we take from the wild, here is a study, here's an analysis that says there is no detriment, that is a non detrimental find. There's no detriment to that population in the wild because of what we're doing actually. Because there's something, there's also a little bit of enhancement in that. Right. We're actually enhancing that population because of what we do from the schooling, from the anti poaching, from the medical, from all the things that come as a result of hunting.
- [32:29]
B
Yeah, no, exactly. You know, so not to get too technical, but, but if you want to.
- [32:37]
A
No, I want you to get technical.
- [32:38]
B
Let's go. So normally if you, if you want to export ascite is one listed specimen. You know, you need an import permit from the receiving country first.
- [32:54]
A
So let's talk through this. Let's talk through this. Somebody hunted a rhino, all right. In South Africa, right?
- [33:00]
B
No, no, rhino, that's, that's the, the other weird thing. So rhino, a live rhino is appendix two. Okay. If you hunt that rhino, it's appendix two.
- [33:14]
A
Okay.
- [33:15]
B
Okay. But the dead specimen, you know, the horn is appendix one. So the horn has got a higher conservation value than the live rhino. Does that make sense to you?
- [33:31]
A
Oh, so now you're just, what you just put together really. I use constantly in rhetoric, right? Yeah, the, you're literally blowing my mind. And I, I really, I love it when that happens. I've always said a dead rhino is a thousand times more valuable than a. Right. A, a live rhino. And I've used it in the context of the fact that the horn is so valuable.
- [33:57]
B
Yeah.
- [33:58]
A
When you, when you go down to the kilogram number and you use whatever the market black market price right now is 30,000 to $60,000 a kilo multiplied by multiple kilos to the cost of, of hunting a rhino. It's like this, right? It's a thousand times more or a hundred times more.
- [34:18]
B
But actually legally.
- [34:23]
A
It is because of the way that it's set up on Appendix one and Appendix two.
- [34:28]
B
Exactly. You know, it's, it's almost designed to not give rhinos a chance.
- [34:38]
A
Yeah, it's. And, and here's the other thing. The, the cite situation. Appendix one, Appendix two, but I don't know if it. Do we know if live rhinos were put on appendix two 50 years ago?
- [34:50]
B
No.
- [34:50]
A
Or did they come down?
- [34:51]
B
No. So, so, so basically all rhinos were on appendix one, but then, so rhino.
- [34:58]
A
Horn trade has been banned since 1976, 1977. So 50 years.
- [35:02]
B
Yeah.
- [35:03]
A
And we've been in this situation.
- [35:04]
B
No, so the word ban doesn't exist in cites. In the convention you can scroll through the convention, you can do a search. There's no word. The ban is. The word ban is never used. Okay. There's just certain strict rules. Okay.
- [35:21]
A
Restrictions.
- [35:22]
B
Exactly.
- [35:22]
A
On trade. Yes.
- [35:24]
B
So, okay, yeah, so, so rhinos, basically all rhinos were on appendix one or is an appendix one. But then I think it was in the late 80s or 90s, South Africa went there and said, listen, our white rhino population is stable and growing. Can we hunt them? And, and therefore if we hunt them, the, the live, if, if we hunt them and if we export live animals, let that be appendix two. Okay, so, so that's why.
- [36:00]
A
Gotcha.
- [36:01]
B
We, we can hunt rhinos. And, and you don't need that import permit first and then the export permit type of thing, you know, and it's, it's still very regulated, but basically you just need the export permit and, and then after that, obviously the country that receives it do the import permit. But, but, but, yeah, okay, okay, that.
- [36:26]
A
Makes complete sense, man. I love it. So let's, how, let me ask this, I'm just a little. If the, if the country doesn't require an import permit. Now in the scenario that that has transpired in the last 24 hours, how does a country prove that that horn didn't come illegally? Vicus.
- [36:52]
B
All right, so, so it's, I think it's, it's important to, to stand still there. It's, it's not a. Look, most trades happen with an import permit and an export permit, okay? But the sequence in how takes place is, is where it gets tricky. So for Appendix 1, the importing country must first give the import permit. Okay. And, and there's certain things that they must do before they give that import permit. All right, Then with that import permit in hand, you go to the exporting countries management authority and you say, okay, I, I want an export permit. I've got an import permit already.
- [37:37]
A
Okay, but now, yeah, that makes complete sense. I, we're doing the same, we're doing that exact process for cheetahs. Right now we have to get our import permits from Mozambique first, get all that squared away before we come to South Africa dffe and say, hey, we want an export.
- [37:52]
B
Exactly. So but when it comes to Appendix 2 species, then it's just the opposite. So. So you can have the export permit first, and then you go to the importing country and you apply for an import permit. Okay. And there's also certain rules, etc. But it's much easier. Now you can imagine dealing with China, they are very sensitive when it comes to their image in the world, so they will never give an import permit first. You know, they burnt their fingers too many times, you know, so. So that's just one thing that they, they won't do. Okay, But. But now this decision allows us to get the export permit. But with that export permit in hand, now obviously, you know, the song is playing. It's easy for them to get up and dance with us, you know, to. To put it like that, you know.
- [38:54]
A
Mm, mm. Yeah, that makes, that makes a lot of sense for somebody who's. Who's listening to this and going, I don't really understand the big deal. And is Vickers now planning on killing, like, half of his rhinos? Explain the situation of trimming of rhino horns and stuff like that.
- [39:13]
B
Yeah, so rhino horn is basically keratin. It's like your nails and hair. It constantly grows. It's got no nerves. It's got no blood supply. It's dead tissue. And they, you know, wear it down, work it down against trees and rocks, and they fight with it and it breaks. So it just constantly grows. So. So you can trim it. And we do trim it, obviously to mitigate the risk of poaching, but also to keep them from killing each other. You know, rhinos, you don't really have other predators. The most rhino deaths happen because of killing between rhinos, you know, so if you cut the rhino, the rhino horn, it's almost like boxes wearing gloves. You know, when they fight, it's not that fatal. So we cut or trim the horns anyway, know, and, and we sitting on stockpiles of that horn that was humanely, you know, trimmed. And like I say, it's de. Tissue. The rhino doesn't even feel it. You know, we. We dart the rhino. It's unconscious. And then, you know, we basically trim it off with a specific type of saw. And afterwards we, we wake the rhino up and, you know, it's, it's. It's literally there on the top of his nose. And I doubt if he can even see there, you know?
- [40:49]
A
Yeah, Vicus. Explain. Explain the. We just briefly touched on, obviously, liability and security associated with rhinos and that being sort of the driver right now of, you know, undervaluing rhinos. People not wanting to have Rhinos. Why the poaching is so hectic around rhinos. Go through, for me, if you can, in detail of the security that you have in place and so that people get an understanding of, like, the intensity of the security.
- [41:18]
B
Yeah. So, so like I say, we've got intensive protection zones where we keep our most valuable assets, you know, and that's basically the cows and calves and, and, and, and there the principle is almost like, say you've got sheep and you've.
- [41:39]
A
Got wood, you corral them up.
- [41:41]
B
Every time you've got spraying on them, what would you do? You bring them into a safe place overnight, and during the day you open them up and, you know, they go outside with a shepherd looking over them. And that's, that's in principle basically what we're doing, you know, so we've got about 20 rangers that operate on horseback and then obviously.
- [42:04]
A
Full time.
- [42:04]
B
Yeah, full time. Right.
- [42:06]
A
And they're armed to the arm. To the gills.
- [42:09]
B
Exactly. And, you know, obviously a lot of technology. You know, thermal cameras, access control fences, we make use of license plate recognition cameras and all the roads, you know.
- [42:24]
A
Explain that, explain the license recognition cameras because that's a pretty new technology that everybody's using.
- [42:30]
B
Right.
- [42:30]
A
So you're connected into this huge network across the country.
- [42:33]
B
Yes. So, so basically what happens, a car drives through one of those cameras, the camera reads the license plate, it's thrown against the database. And if it's a listed vehicle for some reason, stolen car or known poacher or something, then, then obviously we notified. But then we're also part of a bigger, let's call it intelligence grouping, you know, because, you know, police in South Africa, dare I say, is pretty useless. So, you know, we have to do all the investigations and we have to be proactive. So we've got a team of guys that is constantly working on identifying poachers and following networks. And you must realize poaching is organized crime. You know, it's just a different commodity. But it's the same people that smuggle drugs, that deals in cash and transit ties in South Africa, you know, smuggling of guns, etc. Etc. You know, it's just a different commodity. And so we really up against, you know, bad guys. It's not just petty criminals, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's really bad guys.
- [43:52]
A
Huge crime syndicates. Have you had any poaching since the 2015 incident? No.
- [43:59]
B
So fortunately for the last 10 years, we, we've gone without poaching.
- [44:04]
A
And in those, in those last 10 years there's been rampant in South Africa and they've started leaving, you know, areas like Kruger where they've decimated the populations and headed down to Shishloui and flows where the asset is still there. And you know, I think somebody couched it in a way that like, yeah, we're losing, we're not seeing as much poaching pressure occur in Kruger because they can't find the rhinos anymore. And it's not, it's not easy.
- [44:28]
B
Yeah, if you look at the numbers, it looks like the numbers are coming down, but if you look at the percentage of rhinos being poached, there's not a difference, you know, and if you look at the reports that they bring out every year, you can see there's a decline in the numbers year on year on year, you know.
- [44:48]
A
Yeah.
- [44:48]
B
And nothing has been done so far to, to change that trajectory. And in my opinion the only way to stop it is, is to, to have a legal conduit, a legal way for people in the east to access horns. Because you know, the, the rhino horn is mainly used in traditional Chinese medicine and it's, it's a custom or a culture.
- [45:19]
A
It's also a status symbol. It's also super.
- [45:22]
B
Well, that status symbol, something that developed later on, you know, so, so initially it was only used in traditional Chinese medicine. But because there's no legal supply, the prices went up, you know, from, I think it was something like a dollar per kilo back in the 60s, you know, not a lot, you know, but, but because there's no legal supply, the prices went up and up and up and up. And, and it, some people even, you know, bought it as an investment because they speculate that rhinos are going extinct. And you know, the prices just went up and up and up. And currently it's sitting probably in China, depending obviously on the horn and the size, et cetera, around $25,000 per kilo. And now it's a status symbol because now if you've got a piece of rhino horn art that you can display on your desk or something, you know, it's a show of wealth.
- [46:24]
A
Yeah, it's like having a Rolex or a Ferrari. Exactly like that.
- [46:27]
B
Yeah, exactly. You know, but, but it all started out in traditional Chinese medicine and, and, and it's a, it's literally a thousands of year old tradition, you know, so, so the demand is there and yeah, I, I, I, I believe demand reduction, you know, education might help, but in, in South Africa, for instance, we can't even teach our children in schools to read and write. You know, what about trying to convince a billion Chinese not to, to follow a thousand year old custom? You know, it's not going to happen. So, so I believe once there's a, a legal way of getting the horn there, you know, that prices will come down and because prices come down it won't be as worthwhile for, for the poaching syndicates. And plus now, now the people that is protecting the rhinos got the money in their hand to do it, you know, and it's not in, in the hands of, of poachers anymore.
- [47:33]
A
Yeah, yeah. Because the other side that are opposed to what you're doing will say this is just going to muddle and increase the illegal take of wild rhinos because now there's not going to be a way to distinguish between illegally taken poached rhinos and your commercially conservation bred rhinos. What would you say to somebody like that?
- [48:05]
B
Well, it's quite the opposite. You know, a rhino horn carries DNA. Okay. And, and so all the rhinos in at Rockwood and all the rhino horn that we've, that, that we, we trim is DNA tested and it's got a DNA certificate. All right? So, and in fact we've got a, what we call a rotus system in South Africa where it's, it's, by law you're required to, to have, you know, all the rhinos in, in South Africa DNA tested and, and you know, on file. So if they get a horn somewhere, doesn't matter where in the world, they can basically link it back to a specific rhino. Okay, so, so, so we're not saying, you know, it's a free for all now. We're just buying and selling and you know, no, so, so, so we want that traceability, we want to have better enforcement. You know, just by the way.
- [49:16]
A
More.
- [49:16]
B
Than half of everything that's sold in China as rhino horn is actually not rhino horn. It's other types of horn, buffalo horn, all sorts of things. So now at least, you know, we can give that consumer also the comfort to know that you know, this is real rhino horn, this is legal, you mainly taken or you know, produced rhino on. And so we can bring that traceability in it, you know, so it's going to be good for the consumer and we can, I think with the right marketing campaigns get more and more consumers to buy the legal stuff because they know it's the real stuff, you know, instead of the, this, the stuff you buy around the corner that you don't know if, if it's the real stuff or not, you know, so, so I, I think it's, it's just the opposite. You know, it's, it's, it's not gonna open the floodgates for, for, for, for more on to, to go into China.
- [50:23]
A
Yeah, I would tend to agree with you. So let's just go through again what did the, what the court ruled on Friday. So the court rule, I'm just going to read from your press release. Number one, the CITES exemption for conservation bread runners is part of South African law. We've talked about that. That's the CE component of the permit. Happens for lots and lots and lots of different species already in South Africa. You're not setting a new bar. It happens already. They issue export permits around that CE component already. Export permits must be issued for horn from conservation breeding facilities. That's what you were challenging because the MEC before or DFFE said nope, we're not giving you an export permit. So because of that fact you've now switched it. Like we talked about earlier, the country that's receiving the rhino horn doesn't need to put the import permit in place first. It can be the other way around. You've got the export permit now you can go to them and say would you like to import this? And the last thing is that the MEC must decide on issuing a certificate within seven days.
- [51:33]
B
Yes.
- [51:34]
A
I don't know if you want to get into like what happens next. Vicus. I obviously want to be very cognizant of legal proceedings and a court. So tell me.
- [51:45]
B
So basically you know that permits we applied for right in the beginning that they refused those permits must now be re evaluated and within seven days they must come back to us. Either approve it or give reasons why not. You know, so generally they've got 20 days to decide on any permit. All right. But for this specific one's seven days now they can come back and appeal it and you know we waiting to see obviously what's going to happen but you know if you read through this judgment it's going to be hard to appeal it. You know, you know obviously there must be some aspect of it that they must try and appeal. But you know the way this judgment is written it's going to be hard. So we'll see. They're probably going to appeal just to delay the process. We don't know. But yeah, at least you know it's, it's, it's another step closer to, to victory for us and, and, and getting legal trade going and saving the rhino.
- [53:02]
A
Well, Vicus, it certainly from a timeliness perspective couldn't have been better timed given that we are two and a half weeks away from cites and it's cop in Uzbekistan in which there will certainly be knowing the other side probably, you know, celebrations around the 50 year anniversary of. Let me make sure that my rhetoric is correct this time. 50 year celebrations around rhino horn restrictions that were put in place in the mid-70s to, to protecting rhinos. And I think we all can see that in 50 years. If you look at where we are today with rhinos, have they done better or worse as a result of the restrictions being put in place by cites? It doesn't take a lot of scrutiny to understand that they are not doing better.
- [54:00]
B
Yeah, yeah. You know, if you, if you look how many thousands of rhinos were poached in that 50 years, how the, the numbers of black rhinos came down from probably close to 100,000, you know, down to a couple of thousand, maybe three, four, five thousand now how white rhino numbers at first increased but, and then came down, you know, so you know, then there's the Asian rhinos, You know, it's a totally different story. But, but all rhinos are, are suffering. And, and so the call it trade ban is not really helping. You know, that's, it's, it's, it's like trying to use a screwdriver to, to fix a bolt. You know, it's, it's, it's, yeah, you might have a tool, but it's not the right tool. You know, it's not working and doing the same thing all over and over is not going to get a different result.
- [55:07]
A
Yeah, it sounds like the definition of, you know, insanity, right? In that you do the same thing and expect a different result.
- [55:15]
B
And unfortunately, you know, if you take the value of the illegal trade in, in rhino horn, it's, it's worth, I don't know, hundreds of millions of dollars. You know, if, if you take around, say a thousand sets of horns, leaves Africa every year, you know, on average say about five kilos. You know, conservatively, that's 5,000 kilos times 25 million, $25,000 per kilo. You know, that's a lot of zeros. It's, you know, over $100 million. So that's a lot of money.
- [55:58]
A
To.
- [55:58]
B
Convince people to not create opposition, you know, illegal trade against that. You know, there's a lot of money involved and then there's also a lot of people as you know, collecting money for saving the rhino. And most of that money never Gets to grassroots level. You know, it's an industry. And think about it, how does the model work? They get money to solve a crisis, they go to donors, there's this crisis, you know, please save the rhino. But if they eventually save the rhino, their funds are going to dry up and they know it, you know, so they pretend to do a lot, but they don't actually do something that makes a difference.
- [56:47]
A
I'm with you. I'm with you 100% on that, man. It's, it's a very, it's a very unique situation in which the, the species that you want to save, if you actually do your job and do it right, you're out of a job.
- [57:09]
B
Exactly.
- [57:10]
A
Which is. It should be the ultimate goal of anybody that's in the wildlife conservation space.
- [57:14]
B
Right.
- [57:15]
A
You want to save something, save it. You should be out of a job.
- [57:18]
B
Yeah.
- [57:18]
A
You've done your work. Yeah. Now move it into the sustainable use management arena. Right. I like to say I'll let you close us out. But I like to say, and this is pure fact, rhino horn is the most expensive renewable resource in this world.
- [57:39]
B
You're absolutely right. You're absolutely right.
- [57:41]
A
But there is no other commodity that can regenerate itself. What do they regenerate? Vikas? Two to three kilos every 18 months.
- [57:52]
B
Well, depends on age, depends on sex, but on average, around, say, a kilo per year.
- [58:00]
A
Kilo per year. So every two years, two kilos.
- [58:03]
B
Right.
- [58:04]
A
Times the multiplier that you just said, $25,000 a kilo. Name for me, a renewable resource in this world that has the same price tag.
- [58:14]
B
Yeah. Now, just on that.
- [58:16]
A
Marijuana isn't even like marijuana poppies. They're not renewable. Right. You're talking the drug trade and it doesn't even get close. People say, well, diamonds are more expensive, Robbie. Diamonds aren't renewable.
- [58:29]
B
Yeah, yeah. Now, you know, there's obviously a lot of people that will say, yeah, you're just doing it for the money, you know, but if you look at the.
- [58:39]
A
How much money are you spending a year, Vickers?
- [58:41]
B
Yeah, well, I'm protecting Iran, basically. You know, just more than $2 million a year. But to get back to the, the, the, the court papers here, you know, the money that we get can only be used for conservation purposes.
- [59:00]
A
All right, See, I like that a lot.
- [59:03]
B
So it's, again, it's not, you know, like I say, a free for all, and this is my, my ticket to riches or anything, you know, the money that, that the income that we get from rhino horn must go directly back into conservation, you know, so it's, it's already ring fenced and, and you know, that's, that's part of, of that exemption. It's a conservation breeding and, and so the proceeds from that goes back into conservation, you know. So, yeah, just, I, I just need to say that so that everybody knows, you know, this is, this is, this is not a, the silver bullet that, that's going to turn me into a rich man. You know, this is just going to help the, the rhinos.
- [59:47]
A
I think that that exemption, that exemption or that, that added little bit of nuance to the court ruling is phenomenal because you're absolutely right. One of the things that we are hammered on the most when it comes to our hunting industry. As you guys make all the money, you guys are just getting rich. You're just getting rich. You're just getting, you know, the profits. The community's not, you know, not benefiting wildlife's not benefiting. The court rulings here say the money made by selling this horn must go back into the conservation of rhinos.
- [60:26]
B
Yeah. Which I think is a very good thing.
- [60:28]
A
Thank you, man. Thank you so much, my friend. I really appreciate you. I appreciate our friendship. I appreciate you letting me have this conversation with you.
- [60:38]
B
No, 100%. You're welcome. And thank you for your support through the years. Yeah, I'd like to see you soon in the States.
- [60:50]
A
Well, come see Rockwood next year.
- [60:51]
B
Yeah, you're welcome.
- [60:54]
A
All right, sounds good.
- [60:56]
B
Cheers.
- [60:58]
A
Well, that's it for today.
- [61:01]
B
I appreciate you listening.
- [61:02]
A
As always. Leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.