Episode 610 - Pud Howard || From Desert To Paradise

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Origins Foundation Podcast

Episode 610 – Pud Howard || From Desert To Paradise
Date: December 2, 2025
Host: The Origins Foundation
Guest: Pud (Pood) Howard

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the Origins Foundation ventures to the heart of Australian duck hunting: Sale, Victoria, home of Pud Howard. Pud, a lifelong hunter and conservationist, details his decades-spanning journey from childhood duck hunts to spearheading the ambitious restoration of the Heart Morass wetland. The conversation explores the vital link between hunting and habitat conservation, the cultural depth of hunting communities, and the necessity of passionate succession for conservation initiatives. Pud’s deeply personal narrative, laced with practical knowledge, family legacy, and a fair dose of bush humor, underscores the reality that effective wildlife management starts with caring for the land.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Pud’s Background and the Cultural Roots of Duck Hunting in Victoria

• Pud (nickname from youth, real name not shared) was born and raised in Sale, Victoria, a region renowned as the "heartbeat" of duck hunting in Australia.
  • “Born and raised in Sale. Yes.” – Pud (04:16)
• Sale and its wetlands, especially the Gippsland Lakes, have long been critical for water birds and a focal point for hunting culture.
• Victorian duck hunting culture stands out as the strongest in Australia, even as wetland habitats shrink in other states due to banning or reduced interest in hunting.
  • “There’s always been very good water here.” – Pud (05:06)

2. Legacy and Influence: Family and Conservation

• Pud’s conservation ethic stemmed from his uncle, Herb Got, a “doer” and founding member of Field and Game Australia who dedicated his life to protecting local wetlands.
• Pud reflects on inheriting Herb’s legacy, feeling the weight of “becoming” Herb for his generation.
  • “Pooh. Do you know what you sound like right? You are Herb.” – Host (11:47)
• Herb’s activism included hands-on efforts: photographing bird rookeries, restoring wetland flow by physically digging channels, and meticulously recording history.
• Pud continues to maintain Herb’s archival photos, writings, and passion for wetland health.

3. The Field and Game Australia Model: Funding Conservation

• Hunters in Victoria, led by Field and Game, lobbied for license fees and a dedicated Duck Stamp program, ensuring hunting license revenue funded wetland acquisition and management.
  • “At the hunter’s request, that we have a license fee set up, and that license fee go to a wetland purchase fund.” – Pud (15:12)
• These funds contributed directly to creating state game reserves, blending hunting access with conservation priorities.

4. The Heart Morass Restoration: From Wasteland to Wetland

• Genesis: The Heart Morass, once derelict from salinity and neglect, was acquired by Field and Game Australia in partnership with Watermark (a local conservation group), philanthropic trusts, and governmental agencies.
  • “They said, look, if anybody’s interested, we’d like to talk. So we stepped up… …We have 1.2 million. That’s all we got… The family involved… said, we’ll take it.” – Pud (35:01)
• Restoration Achievements:
  • Over 66,000 trees planted, significant weed control, restoration of water flow and structure, and creation of varied habitats (open water, edge, and forest).
  • Grazing used strategically to maintain beneficial open edges and feed for birds.
  • Strong community and youth involvement, including school children and conservation groups.
  • “We planted 66,400 recently… 66,000 trees on the property.” – Pud (36:20)
• Challenges:
  • Learning from failed planting (losses and adaptations), constant threat from invasive weeds, inexorable need for active ongoing management.
  • “Now it’s not restoration anymore, it’s maintaining and managing.” – Host (47:12)

5. Perspective on Conservation and Hunting’s Role

• Hunting is core to Pud’s identity, but he firmly believes that “if you’re going to hunt, you must conserve.”
  • “The best way to conserve is habitat… With this place—yes, we’re duck hunters, but all the rest of the bird species come along for the ride...” – Pud (21:40)
• Restoration success benefits not just ducks, but swans, cockatoos, and many other species.
• Pud voices concern about future leadership in conservation; he fears a lack of passionate successors poses risks to the ongoing stewardship of such projects.
  • “You said, I’m worried about who’s next.” – Host (20:21)
  • “Unless you’ve got somebody passionate there to drive, it won’t work.” – Pud (20:56)
• The need to dispel the myth of hunters as mere takers—hunters are disproportionately land stewards and investors in habitat.

6. Public-Private Partnerships – Opportunities and Pitfalls

• Pud critiques the current limitations of government-managed game reserves: chronic underfunding, excessive regulation, and a lack of flexibility compared to NGO or private efforts.
  • “The government, they’re constrained. They’re constrained by budget… There are areas… that the government realizes we don’t have the money…” – Host (40:41)
• The conversation suggests public-private partnerships (as seen in American models) could benefit Australia, provided government bureaucracy doesn’t stifle innovation or timely action.
  • “Australia’s overregulated... the NGOs would walk away very quickly.” – Pud (41:53)
• Case in point: strategic grazing is banned on public reserves, leading to habitat decline, whereas the Heart Morass uses it to create essential open feeding grounds.

7. Philosophy and Future: The Essential Role of Habitat

• Pud and the Host agree: no matter your ethics or aims, habitat is the key for any thriving wildlife population.
  • “If you had to… say to them, ‘What’s the most fundamental thing that you need for wildlife to survive?’… The answer is habitat.” – Host & Pud (53:23-53:33)
• Pud is realistic; he fears for the future of both hunting and wetland conservation if the next generation doesn't step up.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Heritage and Succession:
  • “Who's coming after you with the passion that you have? … I don't know.” – Pud (02:00)
• On Conservation & Hunting:
  • “If you’re going to hunt, you must conserve. You must conserve.” – Pud (18:39)
• On Partnership Challenges:
  • “The first thing they said was, look, if hunting's an issue, we won't bother going any further. Oh, that is not negotiable in this whole scheme of things.” – Pud (32:46)
• On Restoration:
  • “Now it’s not restoration anymore, it’s maintaining and managing.” – Host (47:12)
  • “You give it two years and it’d be a jungle... now we’re removing trees, getting rid of them because it’s just too much.” – Pud (47:33, 47:54)
• On the Future:
  • “I don't think it has to be any better than what it is, but it's gotta be maintained. And that's what I would hate to see… that the property is let go…” – Pud (51:26)
• On the Universal Need for Habitat:
  • “If you had to ask Georgie Purcell… What's the answer? The answer is habitat.” – Host & Pud (53:31-53:33)

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Key Timestamps

• Sale and Duck Hunting Meccas: 04:26 – 05:44
• Origins of Field and Game & Uncle Herb: 11:01 – 13:10
• Hunters Funding Conservation: 15:09 – 16:11
• Heart Morass Acquisition and Restoration: 28:30 – 38:09
• Public vs. Private Conservation Management: 38:41 – 46:09
• The Future—Concerns and Hopes: 50:10 – 52:56
• Habitat as the Foundation: 53:23 – 53:51

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Tone & Style

The tone is warm, candid, and laced with dry Australian bush humor. Both host and guest are deeply passionate, pragmatic, and often nostalgic, but balance sentimentality with a no-nonsense approach to stewardship, conservation, and the everyday realities of hunting and land management. While lighthearted moments surface (e.g., wildlife and dog interruptions, friendly jibes), the essential message is clear: without proactive, passionate people and active management, both wildlife and hunting traditions are at risk.

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Conclusion

This episode is much more than the story of a man and a wetland—it’s a living testament to the intertwined fates of hunting culture, habitat restoration, and community legacy. Pud Howard’s journey from “desert to paradise” is a model for conservation efforts worldwide, and a wakeup call: the stories we inherit are only as strong as those willing to retell and renew them.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hood Howard. Yes, you heard it correctly. Pood Howard. That's not his real name. I actually didn't even get his real name. Pooch is what he's been known as since a teenager in the small community called Sail Victoria in Vic in Victoria, Australia, State of Australia. You could call Sail almost the heartbeat of duck hunting in Victoria, Australia. And Pood's been in the duck hunting scene there for 50 years. He's been doing it ever since he was a small kid. And his heart and soul are buried in a place called the Heart Morass. It's a place that they purchased as Fielding Game Australia purchased a block of land and regenerated and restored it into this wetland paradise for ducks. And I got to spend a whole day exploring the Heart Morass with Pood. And I'll tell you what, it's a. It's a distinct pleasure to listen to someone's heart about why they do what they do, the passion that they have for it. Yes, they like shooting ducks, but look at the effort that it took to get to shoot maybe a couple of ducks a day for 60 days. It's unbelievably built the relentless conservation mindset that Pood and his sale branch of the Fielding Game Australia is doing on the ground. You know, it was really a reality check because you listen to Pood and you hear me ask the question, who's next? Pood? Who's coming after you? Who's coming after you with the passion that you have? And you'll hear him very sadly say, I don't know. So really enjoy this podcast. We recorded it right next to the Heart Morass in the middle of the bush was amazing. So five years ago, there was a reason why I started this movement. And the truth then was. Is the truth now that we need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around what we do and who we are. There's a sweet spot with a gun, you know, too heavy and it's a.

[A]

Burden to walk with. Too light and you whipping it.

[B]

Why is the project so important to the hunting community? It's.

[A]

It's a. I think it's not only important, I think it's.

[B]

I think it's vital.

[A]

I think it's. It's just in time.

[B]

It's like snakes and ladders.

[A]

You guys are climbing the ladder and.

[B]

Then somebody does something stupid and you just slide down. That is such an amazing analogy. Snakes and ladders.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, ivory in. In my opinion was the plastic of its age. Okay. The expenses are going up.

[A]

It goes a long way with families. We have families that do need it.

[B]

Let me close this door because I have a little wiener dog. What? You are. You're laughing because I said wiener.

[A]

I'm really glad you finished the sentence out.

[B]

I'm sorry.

[A]

The first half doing here today.

[B]

You're telling the whole world, Squish all the mosquitoes that you have.

[A]

You want some Aragon?

[B]

I don't need Aragon. I'm an African with malaria. With. That's had malaria. Exactly. You got all these mosquitoes here, cuz you got all this water here, Pud. Good. You ever done a podcast before, Pud?

[A]

No.

[B]

Essentially, I'm breaking your cherry.

[A]

Yeah, that's right.

[B]

Yep. Pud. That's a very interesting first name. That is your first name or is that a nickname?

[A]

That's a nickname. It's one that I've worn for all of my adult life. My first boss gave me that name and half the people that I know only know me as Pudd.

[B]

Last name Pud.

[A]

Howard.

[B]

Pud Howard. Yep. Sail Victoria. Home born and raised here.

[A]

Born and raised in Sale. Yes.

[B]

And Sale is north. No, southeast Victoria, basically. Yeah.

[A]

Eastern Victoria.

[B]

What's it known for?

[A]

Oil and gas, raft base farming, strong dairy industry. But that's probably the three majors. Yeah.

[B]

Very rural community.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Rural country.

[A]

Yep. Rural country.

[B]

Hunting a part of this rural country?

[A]

Very much so. Duck hunting's been very much part of the sale of the Gippsland area. The Gippsland lakes. We're basically on the western end of the Gippsland Lakes. The Gippsland Lakes being a very important drought habitat for birds. Water birds. So there's always been very good.

[B]

There's always good water here.

[A]

Yeah, Always got water.

[B]

Always got water. And that's what people were saying, like when you talk about duck hunting and ducks here in Australia. No, not Australia. In Victoria, it's where the water is.

[A]

Yeah, I suppose Sale has always been one of the meccas. There's a few meccas for duck hunting in in Victoria. One is Bullock. Where's Bullock Bullocks at Donald in the Western District. Kerrang up on the north on the Murray.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

And Sile. They're probably the three meccas in the duck hunting fraternity.

[B]

And there's no really other duck hunting culture here in Australia really is there?

[A]

There is. Like South Australia has a. Has a bit. New South Wales was always quite strong but Victoria is definitely the strongest. I suppose Tasmania is quite strong as well, but Victoria's always been the strongest. You know Victoria, when New South Wales had a managed season, a lot of Victorians went to New South Wales to hunt ducks. There was certain wetlands up there which were again meccas in their own right.

[B]

And what has New South Wales lost like 86% of its wetlands since they banned hunting?

[A]

Well, I have never seen the figures but that wouldn't surprise me that they've lost a lot of wetlands because there's very little interest in wetlands that I've noted over the years that.

[B]

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[A]

Yeah, wetlands. When I first started, wetlands were regarded as a wasteland.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Farmers got taxi tax benefits to drain them.

[B]

Yeah. Same as America. It's like a program called the Swamp Buster program. You busted your swamp. You got actually money from the government to drain your swamp.

[A]

Your swamp. Yeah. Yeah. But now, you know, wetlands there's realizing the importance and you know what you would normally in the past call the puddle now has become a wetland. You know, so that they are an important integral part of the environment.

[B]

You've been hunting in this. You've been duck hunting here since you can remember?

[A]

Yep, since I can remember. Probably the first duck hunting I ever did was I was about 15 and here.

[B]

Were you hunting here on the Heart?

[A]

Not until the Heart. Once I got to having my own driver's license. Yes, I hunted the Heart at that stage it was private ownership.

[B]

So your dad would obviously.

[A]

My dad was not a hunter at all really. Come from my. The interest came from my stem from my Uncle Herb Got the late Herb got. Who was one of the.

[B]

Was that your dad's brother?

[A]

No, mom's brother. I know. Married to. Married to dad's sister.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Herb got in his own right. Was a very good bike rider. Famous bike rider.

[B]

Rider.

[A]

Bike. No, push bikes. Push bikes. But he had a passion for wetlands and he was instrumental. One of the few. The instrumental few that set up the Field and Game association with a public meeting here in Salem, 1958.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And Herb was extremely passionate about wetlands and birds and water birds. And he would spend every spare moment he had, particularly later in life, working to protect these wetlands in the soil area.

[B]

Pooh. Do you know what you sound like right? You are Herb. Yeah. Maybe you just described an individual later in life whose sole mission is to protect wetlands in and around sale. Yeah. You just talked about yourself.

[A]

Maybe I don't see it as.

[B]

Think about it.

[A]

Yeah, well, probably think about it.

[B]

What was Herb doing back then? Herb was establishing field in game Australia.

[A]

Yep. And then the interesting thing with Herb, Herb went outside, away from the organization to a degree. He was always a member, but he went away from the organization and involvement in the organization because they weren't. How should I say. Rebellious is what Herb was. Herb would.

[B]

He wanted. He was a doer.

[A]

He was a doer and he was a fighter. Like he would not accept no for an answer and. And he would fight and. And lobby and fortunately his daughters have passed a lot of his writings and paperwork onto me and his photographs and. And reading some of that as I have, you know, the. The passion in his writing was phenomenal. I'm not a very good writer, but he was. And he would.

[B]

What was your passionate about?

[A]

Well, just water and the wetlands. Water and wetlands and birds and the fact that they. What we had to do to maintain them. Even this heart morass. I found some photos that he taken back in the 70s of a massive iris rookery that took up on the reeds down here. And I think it was overflow from the Dowage Mirage rookery. And on the back of the photo is. I think the figure is 3,000. 3,000 birds. He's written on the back of it and he's got all photographs. There'd be very few people even knew about it now that it even happened. But his recordings of it are there and I'm hanging onto it till I go. And hopefully they'll hand it onto the field and game to look after because there's history there, you know, Herb pass. That's. I'm no good with dates. It's been probably gone now for possibly 20 years.

[B]

Did Herb die before you purchased the first parcel of the. Of the Heart Morass?

[A]

Yes, he did.

[B]

Was he aware of. Because obviously it didn't just happen like that. Right. Was he aware that you were heading in that direction?

[A]

Well, that was always a dream of the association, was to own our own wetlands to work on. That was always there. But in the early days, we were fortunate that when the government set up the state game reserve system, which was funded out of our license money at the request of the Field and Game, the then Balti government saw fit to set up a statutory fund called the Wetlands Purchase Fund, which came. Was funded by license money that we'd.

[B]

Asked for, and we're here in Victoria. You paid a license fee and you had a duck stamp program. Right.

[A]

That come later on, but that was part of the license fee and you.

[B]

Had set it up in a way that, hey, we're going to pay money to do the thing that we love, but we want you to put that money aside.

[A]

Absolutely. That's what the government, at our request, at the Field and Game Association's request, at the hunter's request, at hunter's request, that we have a license fee set up, and that license fee go to a wetland purchase fund. And that wetlands, when they were purchased, were then classified as state game reserves, which could be hunted on. So in some cases there was existing crown reserves, water reserves. They would be declared a state game reserve. And then they added to that by buying freehold land as it came on the market around those reserves. And that increased the size of the rivers. The classic ones here is Dowd's Lake, Coleman.

[B]

So that was all funded by Field.

[A]

And Game, by hunters, by licenses, hunters, license money.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was the. The sort of train of thought that I was going down is if you had to, like, put yourself in Herb shoes today, what would he say about this?

[A]

Oh, he would be quite impressed, amazed, you know, and if. If he was here and fit naval, he would be down here working all the time, you know, that that's what Herb would have been doing. He was at his best when he had the shorts on in the water with a. A shovel or whatever, doing something. He loved it. Or photographing. You know, I can always remember I got roped into one day giving him a hand. He wanted to photograph some birds down at Dowd's Morass. And I had to cart this step ladder in so he could get up high enough to take these photos, you know, because I was younger and supposedly Fitter or. In the early days in Lake Coleman, there was a channel interconnecting Lake Coleman to Lake Wellington, which he. And Lake Coleman was polluted by water coming from then Latrobe Valley Water and Sewage Board, this effluent farm. And he wanted this interconnection to clean this place up. And he would go down every weekend, he'd always take two shovels, one for him. And if anybody else turned up, they were given a shovel. So, you know, if you happen to be out in the lake, wandering around, having a look, and Herbie was, here's your shovel. Get in, you know, and start digging. And he dug these two channels out. They were existing channels. And he just deepened and widened them enough until they started flowing. And if you went near him, he got a job because he always had two shovels and he would be there. I've got a photo of him standing in one of the channels, you know, in his shorts. That's what he worked. And he rarely put waders on, you know.

[B]

And so as a. As a young man, you were in. Sort of incorporated into Field and Game Australia, right? That was like the thing to do. Like uncle. That's what they. He does. I like what my uncle does.

[A]

Yeah. And I was also into the shooting. I work in a sports store with a. Which had a reasonable. Quite a reasonable firearms department. That's where I worked from when I left school. So I was always passionate about fire. I had an interest in firearms, that's for sure. And yeah, it was partly her that gave me the early interest for sure. As a child. As a young child. And then got involved in the fielding game in all sorts of things. And had a few other people in the organization at that time, took me under their wing. And the main thing they taught me. I still remember one chap who's now departed, Barry Lews. And Barry always taught me. Or Barry Lewis and the chap. I don't. Bob Simmons. If you're gonna hunt, you've got to conserve. You must conserve if you're gonna hunt. They drum that into me that if you're going to hunt, you must conserve. You cannot just kill something and expect everything else to, you know, to regenerate. You must concert. They drove that into me all the time. And, you know, that's. And I was silly enough, I suppose, at the young age where most were chasing women or whatever, they would drag me off to meetings. And I would be going to meetings in Melbourne and places like that involving the organization.

[B]

What. You know, it's funny, I don't know. You didn't know this because. And I told you a little bit about it in the, in the boat today when we were together, as we were waiting for the other boat, I was looking at you and I was looking around, and in my brain I was like, who's coming after Poot? Like. And then you stopped and I was videoing, and you're like, oh, I don't know if you should video this. But without you even knowing what I was thinking, you said, I'm worried about who's next.

[A]

Yeah, well, it does, it does worry me that somebody's got a. You know, I'm, I suppose I feel young, but the age isn't. I'm not going to be here forever. And who will take it up with a passion? And I've said to Lucas Cook, the CEO, and David Anderson, our chairman, I, you know, as far as any land purchases, wetland purchases, unless you've got somebody passionate there to drive, it won't work.

[B]

Won't work.

[A]

It's not just going to happen itself. You've got to have a driver.

[B]

What do you think has been, you know, you, you've been in this game for a long time. What's been the driver? The constant, constantly.

[A]

Stupidity, I think. Yeah, look, there's, there's a. I'll, I'll.

[B]

Say something controversial and then I want you to correct me. Somebody would say, oh, you're just a duck hunter. I'll say, we won't call her by your nickname for her. I'll say, Georgie Purcell will say, ah, he, he's passionate about it because he loves to kill ducks every single year.

[A]

Well, I do. I, I enjoy duck hunting. I enjoy getting out there, I enjoy eating them. But equally, as I was taught, if you go to take up this pursuit, you must conserve. You must conserve. The best way to conserve is habitat. Get the habitat right and the animals come along. Right. Whether it be ducks or whatever, all the birds you know, with this place. Yes, we're duck hunters, but all the rest of the bird species come along for the ride. The swans, even the dry land birds, the rosellas and the cockies that have been squawking, they all come along along for a ride with it. And yes, I am a hunter. I make no bones about that. I enjoy hunting. I enjoy the outdoor life, the camaraderie with the friends that we've been out with today. It's all part of life. And yes, I enjoy duck hunting, but I enjoy conserving them. I enjoy conservation. It worries me what's going to happen in this Gippsland area.

[B]

Cockatoos.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah.

[B]

This is what happens when you do a podcast in the middle of the Australian bush.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Get all the Australian crazies, which are the cockatoos who decided to just, like, come right on under the. On top of the tree that we are. Unbelievable. Lucas, chase them away.

[A]

Lucas, can you grab my dog, please? Over there. She's right there by the truck where I just worried about her tangling with a tiger snake. That's all.

[B]

One of the most venomous snakes in Australia.

[A]

One of.

[B]

Yep, one of. One of ten.

[A]

They're all pretty venomous. Depends how much they like you. Yeah.

[B]

So the hard morass we've talked about, there's a river right here. The Latrobe River.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

And on the southern border is the Dowd morass.

[A]

On the other side of the Latrobe river, on the south side of the Latrobe river is Dowd's morass, which is public.

[B]

Public land.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

How long has that been in the public domain to hunt?

[A]

Well, 70s, I'm just trying to think.

[B]

Were you hunting that in the 70s?

[A]

Yeah. Yes, I was. Yeah.

[B]

But you weren't hunting the heart.

[A]

No, I was hunting the heart in the 70s before that. You know, I'm 72 years old and I got to work the time frame out. I know. I always remember 75 was a brilliant year here.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Absolutely brilliant.

[B]

It was one of those, what you were saying earlier, ducks in Victoria specifically, is a boom, bust, boom, bust cycle. Yeah. Tell me more about that.

[A]

Well, it's. It's. It's based on floodwater, and it can be what the water conditions are like inland. In as much as the inland swamps of Australia have massive, massive breeding when they flood, and then eventually those inland swamps dry up and they come south. Now, if we've got good water in. In all of Victoria, we have a. Generally a very good season right across the state. 75 we'd come out of, I think, two or three floods in a row. Down here, there'd been phenomenal breeding and it was just, you know, the coastal lake, like, Reeve was full. Jack Smith, like, were full. The phenomenal wetland with phenomenal carrying capacity of water birds, particularly ducks. And 75 here, I remember in the heart, you could knock off after work, come down, and as long as you had the permission from the owner, you came down, walked out along one of the fence lines and would shoot your bag. 10 birds, no worries at all. And if you chose not to go the next night, well, you went the next morning. You know, you do exactly the same thing.

[B]

And are you at that point, how are you hunting them? Is it just like flyby shooting or.

[A]

You decoy had had decoys. But here that year it was flyby. They were just moving up and down the wetland all the time. And they would decoy if you'd let them, you know, but you didn't have to because there was just that many birds.

[B]

Is there a strong decoying culture here? Like, is that what happened from absolute one, like people were using decoys?

[A]

Decoys, yes. Historically, decoy decoys and marked hide positions is very strong. In marked hide. Well, that's a marked hide where somebody will, you know, construct a hide and put their name on it and that they're going to shoot opening. Or it may not even be that. It could be just a point of cane reed or that's where I'm going to shoot. And they put a sign up and that's so other hunters know there's going to be somebody there. And using that with decoys.

[B]

Looks like you've got like that little.

[A]

No, he won't eat much.

[B]

Hunts biter or something. There you got them.

[A]

The. And the early decoys were made out of in my time were made out of cork, generally cork. And hunters would take their heads and wings from the previous year, soaked them in formalin, and then they would wire those or stake those down to a shaped core. And that was their decoys. And there's still even a few around who do it. I know of a couple. And they even had boxes where we just lump our decoys around in bags. They had boxes where they were individually put into so they could protect them. So decoys were very strong. Some palm fronds were used later on. It was polystyrene when that become more available that they were still that were homemaking decoys. And then along came the plastic decoy. But Gippsland was always a strong decoy area. All right. They. They every virtually unless they were hunting dams or something. Anybody hunting out on these swamps had at least half a dozen decoys. Some may have had a dozen or 15 or 20.

[B]

Gotcha.

[A]

But they had a number of decoys and that's what they shot over.

[B]

I'm interested. I asked Lucas this question. He didn't know the answer. Why is this place called Gippsland? Do you know?

[A]

No, not off the top of my head. I'd only be guessing.

[B]

I think it's just a very strange name.

[A]

I think it came from a governor and I think his name was Gipps.

[B]

Okay. Pretty sure that would make sense. Yeah, that would make sense.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So talk to me about this hot morass. We're sitting here, it's 2025 and I'm recording this podcast. It's now October, this, in 2026. This will be the 20 year anniversary of you finishing all three parcels, starting.

[A]

No, no. Tell me a little bit about 206. We purchased the first.

[B]

Okay. Why did you decide to like, purchase? Give me that history.

[A]

Well, we'd always dreamed of it.

[B]

Was it the Sail Field Branch or Field and Deck Rip Lodge or what?

[A]

There was a, at that stage, there was a Gippsland Lakes catchment conservation group called Watermark and they'd all always had an interest in the Heart Morass. They had actually bought a woman out from America. I think her name from memory was Jorah Young. And she wrote a paper about, did a research paper on the Heart and Wrasse. It was all in private ownership there and had a bunch of recommendations and I was a really, had no involvement. I was a paid up member, but that was about it. And they had a, you know, talking with a few people involved with them that they were, you know, would have minded getting their hands on something.

[B]

Anyway, the Watermark people hunters.

[A]

No, no, not at all, not at all. And unfortunately Watermark have, have disbanded now and gone into recess. Anyway, there was a, there was a. The private landholders were having trouble with salinity coming in from the state game reserve down the bottom. There'd been a number of meetings convened between the private landholders.

[B]

Because it's so close to being so close to a title system.

[A]

Yes. Yeah, it gets a tidal influence from, from the Gippsland Lakes. And one of the landholders rang me one night to talk about something and he was getting quite irate about, you know, what was happening to his land. And, and he, you know, he was telling me that he had Agronomist in and he said that the agronomist had said the salinity was off the scales that they use.

[B]

It wasn't even measured.

[A]

He couldn't even measure anyway. And he said, he made the comment to me offhand, oh, nobody'd ever want to buy it. And I said, well, yeah, somebody might. And he said, who? And I said, Field and Game might. Oh. So that was probably the catalyst to get us to look further at it. And. He and his brothers had a bit of a connection to the Field and Game because the Sale Branch had been managing the shooting here we'd actually been managing. And they were people hunters were paying for a key to access the property during the hunting season. So we'd been doing that for, I think, three years for them anyway. I don't know where it came from from there, but that was, I think, from my memory. And they intimated that, that they would be potentially interested in selling. So there was a connection between ourselves, that is Field and Game Australia, Watermark and the West Gippsland Catchment Management Authority, which is a government statutory body. Somehow we got together and had a number of meetings and then decided we'll and Watermark were able to introduce us to a number of philanthropic trusts that may have been able to help us financially. Fortunately, the Hugh D Williamson foundation saw fit to back us.

[B]

All the other foundations looked at.

[A]

You looked. Well, they listened, but.

[B]

And then they were like, well, you're a hunter.

[A]

Yeah, no, we. I wasn't involved in those meetings, but I spoke to people that were in the meetings and they said, look. The first thing they said was, look, if hunting's an issue, we won't bother going any further. Oh, that is not negotiable in this whole scheme of things. And fortunately, the Williamson foundation, who had a strong connection to Watermark, saw fit to listen to us and put a proposal to them. Watermark were able to put up half a million dollars as a grant to us. The association was able to raise $700,000 out of consolidated Funds, branches and individual members. So.

[B]

That'S how it started. That's how what was the original. The first parcel was 1900 acres, 1980.

[A]

Acres, basically, in the first parcel.

[B]

But didn't the whole, like, didn't that whole first parcel set up like they were like, oh, wow, we've got one person interested, maybe there's a lot of other people that could be interested. So we'll make a big deal of this and we think it's valued at seven mil.

[A]

Well, basically, yes. We offered them a million dollars and they laughed at us. So it went to. And rightly so, probably, of course. And then some time after that, it crops up that the property is up for auction at auction. It, you know, it was just prior to Christmas, I remember that much, whatever year it was, and it, it went to. Went to auction, they failed to get a bid. They had a vendor's bid of about 4 million, I think.

[B]

What's a vendor's bid?

[A]

Well, that's where the, the seller can put a bid to start the. Oh, that was their bid, Yep. So then, anyway, they failed to get a bid. We, the group of us that were there representing all three organizations, they Said, look, if anybody's interested, we'd like to talk. So we stepped up to speak to.

[B]

Them and, well, to get to that point, you said, you're wasting your time. Everyone else, come on. This is four. You want four and a half. No, they weren't wasting our time.

[A]

The vendor said, oh. The auctioneer said, oh, they're looking to realize 7.7 million. So, you know, we said, wasting their time. That was the end of it. We went back to the local agent and said, look, we have 1.2 million. That's all we got. Don't come back and ask for 1.5. We have not got it. We got 1.2. And fortunate for us, the family involved, after a couple of weeks, come back and said, we'll take it.

[B]

That was the first 1900.

[A]

And since you've bought basically 770 acres from the second property owner and 550 acres from the third property owner.

[B]

And so we've got a restoration project now, a wetland restoration. You own a wetland?

[A]

Yep.

[B]

That now needs to be restored.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Total acreage, 32 to 3400.

[A]

Something in that.

[B]

Something in that range.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

So what do you do? Like you. You've now got this. What you're like, okay, I've seen the photos. You've got them all over here. The barren, barren, barren landscape. Not a tree to be seen. The only trees were the big trees that are around here that have been here for 200 years.

[A]

Well, we planted 66,400 recently. 66,000 trees on the property.

[B]

Who paid for that?

[A]

Basically, Catchment Management provided most of the trees. Some we purchased ourselves. But Catchment Management in the project were not able to put any money into land purchase. The charter did not allow for that. But they could assist us with advice with trees, water control structures. Yeah, well, that's come later on. They assisted us with technical staff to write the management plan. We had numerous meetings prior to, you know, anything happening. And yeah, they provided the trees, we planted them. Some plant trees have been planted by some contractors under Catchment Management. And then we've had on a couple of occasions, Bugblitz, another organization involved with us that had school kids down here planting as well. And yeah, basically we just kept planting and experimenting with where we could plant. You know, we had a couple of disasters, but that was to be expected.

[B]

That was learning.

[A]

That was learning. And the other big thing with trees is once we, the stock were gone, anything that was here got the right conditions, had a chance to germinate and survive. Like that tree over there. That's grown up out of that stump. They've got a, you know, they've had the chance to get the head above ground and survive.

[B]

Oh, I'm about to sneeze again. Did you. You look at this place now 20 years on and you, you were the, you know, one of the people that was. Took a first step in this place 20 years ago. Did you have in your brain what it would look like today?

[A]

No, no, I didn't. No, I had nothing in my brain. Just about what it looked like. It was just about.

[B]

Here's what the daoud looks like. Let me ask this because the daoud was.

[A]

Well, dao to me is. And I saw that dowage from the very early days and I've watched it to me in a lot of cases, regress. I've been involved in tree planting over there and water control structures, all stuff that we did as field and game people. But unfortunately a lot of the state game reserves have been let go through lack of funding. And I'm not. This comment is not aimed at Parks Victoria who are the managers? Not aimed at their staff. It is the fact that the government, they're constrained. They're constrained by budget. Budget. They're unsupfunded and ridiculous. The amount of land that they've got to look after with the amount of money that they get in their annual budget. So a lot of, you know, dows has become overgrown. The feeding edges, which I've always been adamant need to be maintained and that is the birds have got to be able to feed in shallow water. Doesn't matter whether they're ducks or anything. They want shallow water with clear margins. And what's happened over there, the cane roods have taken over and they've grown to the water's edge and now they're out in the water. So you get out of the cane region, you're in a foot or 18 inches of water, which is not good feeding depth for birds in a lot of cases. And what lives in the canes of the predators? Right. So and that's whether it's foxes or cats or whatever. The predators are in the reeds. So the birds tend to stay away from it. They've just got overgrown. And even to the weeds have taken over in a lot of cases. Some bad weeds in what I class is like boxthorn and blackberries and thistles and stuff like that because they just haven't got the money to control it. Their tracks are. Although, you know, again, dows morass have done a bit of work in recent times. But they are getting shocking states and some of these other state game reserves, you just can't even get around it.

[B]

Now I think that's the thing that I've sort of hit me the most and I get that somebody in the government would see it as oh, you're pointing a finger at us and not. And it's showing that we're not doing quote unquote, our job. And that's not the case here. The case is it's completely budget constrained. I think they would do the work if the budget was there. And so there's examples all around the world. This is obviously not a public partnership in the Hartmore ass, but there's examples all over the world that is a public private partnership. That's how it works. There's budget constraints all over the world, but there are areas, America being one of them, that the government realizes we don't have the money, we don't have the money to implement water control structures, we don't have the money to plant trees, we don't have the money to maintain tracks, we don't have money to do all of this kind of stuff. Oh, but there's an ngo, the private side that wants to help, that wants to go fundraise, who can access different money than we can. Okay, let's build a public private partnership and we all win.

[A]

And that would be great here as long as the government side of it doesn't hold them back. Right. Australia's over regulated and I just see too many things that the government just hold back as well because they're unsure. I've always had the attitude here, I'd rather have tried and failed than done nothing. And the first thing that happens with most of the government stuff, oh well, we'll get some consultants in. Well, I don't have a very high opinion of consultants, unfortunately, because I've seen being involved in things that they've had influence on and their influence is wrong, their reports are wrong and they charge a fortune for it. And you know, if it was to be an NGO and government joint partnership, it need to be some clear guidelines, otherwise the NGOs would walk away very quickly.

[B]

Yeah, because they'd bring the bureaucracy, right? Yep. The typical way that it works is the private partner, the public, the public component to the public private partnership is expertise. There's great expertise in the government. There's also they own the land, so they're the owners. But the private partnership really brings the money and brings the ability to operate in a non bureaucratic environment.

[A]

One of the classics I'll give you a classic example here. All these reserves here, Parks Victoria will not have a bar of cattle grazing, will not accept it. And we've been through some horrendous times of bushfires where farmers are desperate for grazing country and that sort of stuff after a bushfire. And there's a. The classic ones are massive reserve south of here, Jacksmith's Lake. It was farming land. And, you know, suggestions put forward that, all right, why don't we put some of this stock on here to keep them going while, you know, they get over the bushfire. We will not have a bar of it. And that was one of the main things that he had, that this property is going to be grazed. And it's in part of our management plan. It's part of controlling the vegetation, opening areas up, stopping vegetation, taking over, such as cane reeds on the edges, all that sort of stuff. And to me, that's one of the big problems.

[B]

You've seen it work?

[A]

Yeah, yeah, that's right. And one of the classic, the third property, we have a boundary with the state game reserve. And I always used to say to people down there, the property that we bought was grazed, grazed off edges. And then there was a fence line and there was the state game reserve, same system, but from that fence line on was solid tea tree and cane roots all the way around the edge. And I used to say to anybody that, listen, you tell me why all the birds are sitting on this private land along here and not sitting in the. In the state game reserve where. And it was because of grading. There was grazed off edges. There was feeding habitat for birds.

[B]

Does it still look like that today?

[A]

Yes, it does to a degree. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Well, we. Maintaining the vegetation so it doesn't take over like that. Yes, we want a bit of turtle. Yes, we want.

[B]

Yeah, the line is still there, right?

[A]

Oh, yeah, the line's still there.

[B]

And they still don't graze on that side.

[A]

There's no grazing. No, no. Well, government policies, they just won't gross. And to me, that's, you know, it's part of it. Yes. We didn't graze here for probably.

[B]

14.

[A]

Or 12 or 14 years before we put any stock on. The stock were controlled electric fencing. We only grazed certain areas and we're grazing a bit more now, depending on what's happening. But, you know, it.

[B]

You're not seeing any environmental degradation as.

[A]

A result of your, you know, the trees are up to enough where they would withstand anything that, you know, a cow might do or something like that, you know, we don't have bulls, we don't have bullocks. We temper what type of stock we've got in here, we control that. But it's an integral part of managing this place is the grazing. Outside of that, it gives us also an income, a small income to keep managing the property. Yeah. All that would make it difficult in this state to work with the government parties. Unless they change their policy.

[B]

No, because right now, as we talked about today, in the last 20 years, and maybe it hasn't been the whole 20 years, but you've gone from the state of dereliction to putting massive efforts to restore, to get it to a point.

[A]

And now it's not restoration anymore, it's maintaining.

[B]

It's maintaining and managing.

[A]

Managing.

[B]

Yep. Right. It's like, okay, it's not like we've just. We restored it to a point and we like, good. Hands off. We walk away. No, as a lot of people here in Victoria all around the world are advocating for a hands off approach to national park approach.

[A]

No way.

[B]

Not gonna work. Because what would happen here if you just walked away?

[A]

You give it, give it two years and it'd be a jungle. Would be a jungle. And you know, we spoke about trees in certain places. We're now removing trees, getting rid of them because it's just too much. They're too dense.

[B]

Too dense?

[A]

Yeah. And.

[B]

And there is such a thing as too dense.

[A]

Yep, it is. So it's management. And you know, weekly we'd be down here spraying, just keeping certain weeds. And every flood brings another. Another crop of weeds, a different crop of weeds, and we've got to deal with them. Not that we get floods every, but whenever they're after a flood, the first thing you get after flooding, this flood debris, all sorts of rubbish comes down the river in the flood. So you can spend three or four weeks just driving around picking up all that stuff. And then, you know, the other thing is weeds after a flood.

[B]

Thistles.

[A]

Yeah, thistles.

[B]

And why don't you guys like blackberries here? I was very surprised.

[A]

Although they're a wood, actually, they're not native. No, no, they're not.

[B]

See, that was when I was in South Australia. I was walking somebody's property and he was talking about, look, look at these deer trails and whatnot. And his whole, this whole little riverine area was covered in blackberries. And immediately, from my perspective in America, blackberries are native. They're good. Like that's what you want. They create some security, cover and whatnot. And he was like, oh, I'M gonna. This will. This place will look so much better when this is all gone. In my brain I was like, why would you say that? Like, don't you want to keep the blackberries?

[A]

People, people pick wild blackberries to make jam and pies and all sorts of stuff. But they are, they are a weed and a weed that needs to be controlled. And I must admit I'm a little bit loathe to control them. Right on the riverbank because Latrobe river is suffering from erosion, particularly on our side. And because it's a sharper bank and.

[B]

You want to maintain.

[A]

BlackBerry there quite often just, well, it'll protect the bank. You know, a few won't hurt. But on the main of the property, you know, it's a game BlackBerry that sticks his head up when I'm around. But we had a lot of box on here when we started. It's rarely do you ever see any box on there.

[B]

But as we wrap this up, do you have any visions for, you know, what you want this to look like in 20 years or what you want field and game to be like in 20 years or what you want hunting to be like in 20 years?

[A]

Well, in 20 years time I won't be here. I can assure you of that. The yes, I want to see if you are.

[B]

I'm going to wheel you out a wheelchair and let you shoot a duck here.

[A]

Okay. You know, yes, I want to see duck hunting continue. It's good, wild, healthy food. It's a good pursuit. It's. It's family orientated. The opening weekend with, you know, in, in the group that I shoot with, there's two and three generations of family there. It's fantastic to get together and shooting a duck or two is just a bonus on top. And to me the real hunting comes after the opening. But it's fantastic. So this hunting gotta stay for sure. And yes, we're gonna have to fight for wetlands because water getting. Australia is regarded as the driest continent. Water is scarce in the. On this continent. It needs to be used wisely. And I'm very concerned about what they're going to do to fill these open cut mines that they've got to do something with as they decommission the power stations. And I'm totally opposed to water going in but I am a realist and understand well that's probably the only thing they can do otherwise they're going to collapse. So as long as it can be maintained in this state I would be happy. I don't think it has to be any better than what it is, but it's gotta be maintained. And that's what I would hate to see, that I get to a stage where I can't and nurture other people into it, that the property is let go. And, you know, I'd like to see more effort put into these state game reserves to get them into a user, more user friendly state. Yeah, there's a lot of issues that face wetlands and hunters. But back to what I said. You've got to conserve to hunt and to conserve you've got to have habitat. You must have habitat. Get the habitat right and the game comes along and everything else. If you haven't got the habitat, you've got nothing to hunt.

[B]

And I'll add one thing to that. If you had to ask Georgie Purcell, maybe not Georgie, but people of that ilk, if you took hunting out of the conversation and you said to them, what's the most important thing, the most fundamental thing that you need for wildlife to survive and thrive in today's world?

[A]

If I, if like, if I had to say that to Georgie or somebody.

[B]

Of her, what's the answer?

[A]

Well, the answer is habitat.

[B]

The answer is habitat.

[A]

Habitat.

[B]

And they would say the same thing. They would say the same thing if they were truly connected to what is needed for wildlife to survive and thrive. They would say habitat. And all of a sudden we're singing off the same sheet of music.

[A]

There is plenty of people who are conservationists who would say that, but somebody of Georgie Purcell's ilk. No, they, they are, Their, their, their mantra is a bit, a little bit different. They don't care about the habitat. They only care about the animal. They do not care about the habitat. They don't understand that connection between habitat and, and wildlife. Yes, they want to maintain the wildlife, but there's a load of carp going out. Yes, they want to. Animals protect animals, but if the, in their eyes, if they starve to death, so be it. You know, that's natural.

[B]

Pretty sad state of affairs, huh?

[A]

It is, yeah. Yeah, it is. And why.

[B]

Well put. It's been my absolute honor and pleasure to meet you, get to know you. I know you got to know me before you actually met me face to face. Given the fact that I came into your town and put a billboard out.

[A]

That's our job.

[B]

Stirred the pot a little bit. But I appreciate you and I look forward to doing much more with you. And if there's anything that we can ever do to help from halfway around the world, you know that we are there and ready.

[A]

I've got to say on behalf of hunters that we really appreciate the work and the effort that you and your organization put in to hunting around the world to bring it to top of mind to make people understand that we're just harvesting animals for food. Good, healthy, free range food. That's what it's all about.

[B]

And it's the lifestyle and the habitat.

[A]

Yep, and the habitat. You want to do that harvesting, you gotta have the habitat. That's what it's about.

[B]

100%. Thanks, Bud.

[A]

Thank you, Mike.

[B]

Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.