Episode 611 - Doug Schoenrock || New Vision for AR Game and Fish – A Visit with Director Doug Schoenrock

Summary

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The Origins Foundation Podcast – Episode 611

Guest: Doug Schoenrock, Director, Arkansas Game and Fish Commission
Date: December 9, 2025
Title: New Vision for AR Game and Fish – A Visit with Director Doug Schoenrock

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Overview

This episode dives deep into conservation leadership with Doug Schoenrock, the newly appointed Director of Arkansas Game and Fish Commission. A seasoned executive from the food services industry (Sara Lee, Savannah Food Company) and former president of Ducks Unlimited, Schoenrock shares insights from his transition into public conservation leadership. Key topics range from wildlife crises (notably bear and mountain lion encounters), transformative management in fishing and hunting, engaging youth in conservation, to balancing tradition and science-based policy in Arkansas.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Doug Schoenrock’s Unique Background & Appointment

• Transitioned from a 41-year for-profit career (Sara Lee, food services) to Ducks Unlimited and now state wildlife management.
• First Director of a wildlife agency from the for-profit sector, bringing a business perspective to state conservation strategies.
  • "Not only did they hire a guy that didn't come from the space, they hired an old guy. Okay. Who had already retired." – Doug (09:41)
  • Emphasis on staff empowerment, blending passion and professionalism:
    "If you can work your passion, I think you have better employees." (10:52)

2. Why he took the Job: Reluctant but Passionate Leader

• Not seeking a career move or further step up; accepted role out of conservation passion.
  • "I'm kind of unique in that I'm doing this because I want to do it." – Doug (15:43)
  • Describes a near-retirement life in Michigan interrupted by recruitment.

3. Early Tenure Challenges: Bear Incidents

• First four months saw Arkansas' first two fatal black bear attacks in over a century.
  • Details both incidents—one bear had brain lesions but no rabies; second involved a bear returning repeatedly to a campsite.
    • “We knew the bear wasn't right… But you know, in defense of the bears, this cub was 70 pounds.” (18:36, 18:50)
• Response: Extensive necropsies, increased surveillance, and a nuanced, science-based public education campaign rather than fear-mongering.
  • "We're not going to go there... We are gonna try to step up education." (25:00)
  • “We want people to be more bear wise.” (24:12)
• Bear management details:
  • Arkansas set a harvest goal of 400 out of ~8,000 bear population.
  • Regulations: Baiting allowed on private land, not in WMAs; bear tags included with deer licenses.
  • (22:07–22:54)

4. Managing Public Perception, Politics, and Conservation Science

• Handling accusations and misconceptions (e.g., about “importing killer bears/mountain lions”).
  • “We had emails… they thought it was their house cat that was sparring with this 160-pound mountain lion.” (31:07)
• Notable comedic moments reflecting on odd wildlife encounters and the variety of quirky messages from the public.
  • Schoenrock journals these for a possible future book titled “You Can’t Make This Up.” (31:44)

5. The Bear Conservation Success Story

• History of reintroducing and collaring bears, now leading to thriving populations across the state.
  • “That effort is probably one of the greatest conservation stories in the state of Arkansas.” (25:49)

6. Mountain Lions and Wildlife Monitoring

• Recent confirmed mountain lion sightings and data tracking; all confirmed cats are transient males, not resident breeders.
• Using a national DNA database to track animal movements (mostly originating from South Dakota).
  • “There's a DNA database of these predators similar to what law enforcement has for human beings.” (28:51)
• Contextualizing large migrations of apex predators and Arkansas’s role as habitat.

7. Exotic Species Challenges

• Unusual cases: six-foot monitor lizard in Little Rock, a 27-foot Burmese python discovery due to illegal wildlife trade.
  • “Social media is a great tool to patrol to see where some of these are.” (33:21)

8. Fishery Management Crisis & Response

• Severe trout hatchery die-offs (millions lost) at federal facilities due to environmental changes (heavy spring floods, altered water temperature and chemistry).
  • “That hatchery will probably not put another fish in the water in Arkansas for at least 10 to 16 months.” (36:50)
• Emergency regulations: Extended catch-and-release zones, lowered creel limits to two from five on affected rivers.
  • “We felt like taking that nuclear option initially was the best thing.” (38:28)
• Engagement and support from fishing guides and local communities.

9. Forest and Waterfowl Conservation: Green Tree Reservoirs

• Discusses historical and current management of flooded timber (crucial for duck hunting).
  • "We did a good job getting water on them. We did a terrible job getting water off of them." (39:39)
• New strategies favor long-term regeneration vs. short-term hunting yield.
  • “Work we’re doing on GTRS today won’t manifest itself for 75 to 100 years.” (40:16)
• Shift from agricultural planting to “moist soil units” for healthier duck habitat.

10. Doug Schoenrock’s Vision for Arkansas Game and Fish

• Faster, More Efficient Government: Pushing the agency for timely, effective action.
  • “For one thing, coming from for profit, I’m not used to the speed of government… I challenge my team a lot to be more effective and faster.” (43:01)
• Youth Conservation Education: New state initiative with 65 schools (goal was 30) piloting K–12 conservation curriculum.
  • “We will make Arkansas the preeminent state in the nation for conservation education.” (43:40)
• Science-based, Transparent Decision-making: Grounding all policies in evidence, even when politically unpopular.
  • “Everything we do is science-based… not always popular because it’s not fast enough for a lot of sportsmen.” (44:37)

11. Hunting and Personal Passion

• Despite his high-profile role, Doug remains a public land hunter, emphasizing that conservation is about shared passion—not personalities or titles.
  • “It’s not about the person at all. It’s about the passion.” (45:27)
• Balancing visibility and personal enjoyment in Arkansas woods and waters.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On coming out of retirement:
  • “I’m kind of unique in that I’m doing this because I want to do it.” – Doug (15:43)
• On Arkansas bear management:
  • “We have about a population of about 8,000 bears… We set a harvest goal of 400.” – Doug (21:58)
• Bear incident response:
  • “We knew the bear wasn’t right… But you know, in defense of the bears, this cub was 70 pounds.” – Doug (18:36, 18:50)
• On mountain lion migration:
  • “The prior two [mountain lions] both came out of South Dakota.” – Doug (28:50)
• On the trout hatchery crisis:
  • “That hatchery will probably not put another fish in the water in Arkansas for at least 10 to 16 months.” – Doug (36:50)
• Conservation for the future:
  • “Work we’re doing on GTRS today won’t manifest itself for 75 to 100 years.” – Doug (40:16)
  • "The most selfless act that you can do is plant a tree that you know you'll never sit under." – Dan (41:01)
• Vision statement:
  • "I want to make sure our education initiative is rolling at warp speed... Everything we do is science-based." – Doug (43:40, 44:37)
• On public engagement:
  • “I have a book… the name of the book is ‘You can’t make this up.’” – Doug (31:44)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Doug’s appointment & unique background: 04:17–13:44
• Why Doug took the job (passion, not necessity): 15:18–16:03
• Bear incidents & response: 16:39–25:14
• Bear management regulations: 21:55–22:54
• Mountain lion sightings & tracking: 26:33–31:06
• Odd wildlife encounters (monitor lizard, python): 31:34–33:02
• Trout hatchery crisis & fishing regulation changes: 34:08–39:19
• Green Tree Reservoirs & duck habitat strategy: 39:37–42:39
• New vision for the agency (efficiency, youth, science focus): 43:00–44:37
• Personal approach to hunting, staff praise: 44:43–46:21

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Tone and Style

Doug’s tone is genuine, pragmatic, and modest, often punctuated with humor and humility. The discussion remains conversational, candid about the challenges and opportunities within modern state conservation, and ends on a positive, future-focused note.

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For listeners seeking the latest in conservation leadership, wildlife management challenges, and the future of Arkansas’ natural resources, this episode is both informative and inspiring.

Transcript

[Ashley]

Hi, everyone. Thanks for joining us. Today we have a special guest I am excited to introduce you to, Doug Schoenrock, someone I've known for a long time and highly respect. Doug is the new director of the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission, and he joins Arkansas after a long and illustrious career in the food services industry at Sara Lee and the Savannah Food Company, and also as a past president of Ducks Unlimited. He is an avid and lifelong outdoorsman and had actually retired from the private sector before being called out of retirement to take on this new role. So I think that you will enjoy our conversation with Doug. He brings a tremendous amount of experience, experience, integrity and wisdom and excitement to Arkansas. We are excited to have him on today, and I hope you enjoy it.

[Robbie]

So five years ago, there was a reason why I started this movement. And the truth then is the truth now that we need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around what we do and who we are.

[Doug Schoenrock]

There's a sweet spot with a gun, you know, too heavy and it's a burden to walk with. Too light and you whipping it.

[Robbie]

Why is the project so important to the hunting community?

[Doug Schoenrock]

It's. It's a. I think it's not only important, I think it's. I think it's vital. I think it's. It's just in time.

[Robbie]

It's like snakes and ladders. You guys are climbing the ladder, and then somebody does something stupid and you just slide down. That is such an amazing analogy. Snakes and ladders.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

You know, ivory, in my opinion, was the plastic of its age. Okay.

[Ashley]

The expenses are going up. It goes a long way with families. We are families that do need it.

[Robbie]

Let me close this door because I have a little wiener dog. What are you laughing? Because I said wiener?

[Ashley]

I'm really glad you finished the sentence out. I'm sorry. The first half. What are we doing here today?

[Robbie]

You're telling the whole world.

[Dan]

Yeah, it's normal. Me shouting in your ears. I love it. I love it.

Doug, you've done any podcasts as the new director of Arkansas?

[Doug Schoenrock]

Probably about eight.

[Ashley]

Have you really?

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Ashley]

Oh, gosh. I just blew myself out.

[Dan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Robbie]

So you're used to this.

[Ashley]

Throw me down.

[Dan]

You're used to this.

[Doug Schoenrock]

I've done a few, yeah. Some scripted, some not scripted. Do a lot of video messaging for, you know, our staff, and then did a lot of podcasts when I was with Ducks Unlimited, too.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Doug Schoenrock]

So kind of know the drill.

[Dan]

You've met Ashley before?

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yes. Ashley actually worked for Ducks Unlimited for. How many years are we.

[Ashley]

Are we recording it?

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Oh, we are. You always start it so early.

[Dan]

It's. It's the beauty of the podcast.

[Doug Schoenrock]

You can. You can edit whatever you want.

[Dan]

Right. And it gets the best stuff.

[Doug Schoenrock]

D. What, six, eight, 10?

[Ashley]

Yes. I was there 20, maybe 11, 2017.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

And then was on the public policy board for a long time.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

That's when you were president.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah, I was on. I was president from 20 to 22 and then chairman from 22 to 24.

[Ashley]

That's right.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Which I feel like we should. Since you're recording. Robbie, back up for a second and tell everybody who our special guest is today.

[Dan]

Go ahead.

[Ashley]

Which I am so excited to have on Doug Schoenrock, the new executive director of Arkansas Game and Fish, which is, I think, a really exciting development for the state to have this fantastic leader in place because he has a very, very.

Experienced history in the private sector and in the also nonprofit world. You just mentioned the. Your history with Ducks Unlimited, and I want to ask you a little bit about your. Because when I heard about your appointment, I was honestly a little bit shocked and excited, and I started texting some of your staff and your predecessor saying, oh, my gosh, how did you guys get Doug and why is he taking this job? And they were like, you're going to have to ask him.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah, it was. It was a shock to me as well. So I basically retired after 42 years in the for profit industry in the food business, but, you know, had served on the Ducks element board for 22 years. And so you loved.

[Dan]

You loved hunting, you loved walking?

[Doug Schoenrock]

Oh, yeah. When I was in. I mean, growing up.

When I finished chores, I was the kid that. Where'd you grow up? In middle Tennessee, about 80 miles south of Nashville. Okay.

[Ashley]

I didn't want to out you to the Arkansans on this national podcast, but I wondered if they knew you bled orange like I do.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Well, my gosh. That's.

[Dan]

That's.

[Doug Schoenrock]

They know that. They know that. But I'm a very wise person. I do not rub that in.

[Robbie]

I didn't.

[Doug Schoenrock]

I don't post anything. And, you know, I. I commiserate with them, but we.

[Ashley]

We don't have any beef with. So I, as. I think most of the. Our listeners know that I also state Orange, and. And Doug and I would visit about this at many DU events throughout years. And. And so we don't have any beef with Arkansas. Like, I kind of like the hogs and.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Having a knuckle and fat booth, and I like them.

[Doug Schoenrock]

You know why I like Arkansas is.

It'S a small state and everybody knows everybody. And I'm fired up about college football in general, especially the Southeastern Conference. Oh yeah, and I really, you know, Arkansas reminds me of Tennessee when I was a kid because you didn't miss a game on a Saturday listening to it on the radio or watching it on tv.

[Robbie]

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[Doug Schoenrock]

That's the way Arkansas is. So I have. I don't have any Tennessee paraphernalia in my home.

[Ashley]

What?

[Doug Schoenrock]

Well, I have an apartment now, Little Rock. I haven't had time to find a home yet.

[Ashley]

Not that.

[Doug Schoenrock]

But I do have an Arkansas football schedule on my refrigerator. So, you know, I guess that means I'm following the hogs.

[Ashley]

Well, you've got to. You've got to. You can have dual allegiances.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yes. Yeah, I like. And it's. It's easily strikable, too, as far as getting to games. And Arkansas is all about Arkansas football and I'm excited about that.

[Dan]

So obviously you've lived in Arkansas for quite some time now.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Six months. Well, four months. I moved there in June.

[Dan]

You're actually not from the state of Arkansas as hired as the director, you know, out of Tennessee.

[Doug Schoenrock]

So not only did they hire a guy that didn't come from the space, they hired an old guy. Okay. Who had already retired. Full of wisdom, basically. Well, I don't know if it's full of wisdom, but a lot of life experiences.

[Dan]

Okay, sure.

[Doug Schoenrock]

And. And then someone from not within the state. And, you know, during the interview process, I was. I was educated a lot on what the commission wanted to do and understood that they needed somebody that would bring a different set of perspectives and experiences into the role. And that's what I've been able to do. And look at it, you know, in a. From an outside for profit perspective and looking at it as a business motivating the. The employees and the personnel and building relationships and making them feel, you know, empowered to live their passion in the natural state and do what they like to do. Because they get to work in the area of things that they do what they like to do. So if you can work your passion, I think you have better employees 100%. And so I really like that aspect.

[Dan]

Ashley, you know, a lot of directors obviously do. Are there any directors currently in state and fish agency roles like Doug's role that came out of the for profit world? I don't think, I can't think of any head. I mean I can't think of any. And it's sort of the reason I'm asking the question is it must be such a fresh perspective.

[Ashley]

We have former legislators, we have former law enforcement, we have former academia. Academia, we have former military. I cannot think of anyone with corrupt. I mean there may be out there, I mean 50 directors.

[Dan]

I'll make a point here.

[Ashley]

And let's go back to your history. So 41 years in the for profit sector, you worked in the food services industry. A humongous organization, big organization.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Sarah Lee, which was a 24 billion dollar corporation. And I focused on the meat side. I was at Jimmy Dean. My last position while that company still existed was vice president of marketing. And then I ran, went into running specialty sales for Sarah Lee where I ran chain account sales in the food service sector, so restaurants, hotels, casinos worldwide. And so we did a lot of business in Europe and Africa and Asia and built products for those markets and those pallets and spent a lot of time on the road then.

[Ashley]

Had you retired from that by the time you took over as president of Ducks Unlimited?

[Doug Schoenrock]

Had not. So when I took over as president of ducks unlimited in 20, I had been working for a food, another food company, formerly Brian Foods CEO John Bryan. There was some massive consolidations within Sara Lee that I was part of leading that effort, trying to craft a new sales and marketing organization. Out of 10, we brought about 5 to 8 billion dollars worth of business with autonomous companies with their own cultures. And we tried to bring it into one, headquartered it in Ohio. So I moved to Cincinnati and I was responsible for assembling those sales and marketing teams for the, for that organization. So I saw a lot of dear friends who got exited, you know, and that was a very strong learning piece of my life. You realize the human dimension a whole lot more when you have to have difficult conversations with people. And I didn't like that man. But anyway, we emerged through that and I was, I was running a sales function for Sara Lee at the time and there was an imminent move to go to Chicago and I. That was really not in my cards. And so my Wife and I bought a home and a farm in Tennessee in the county that I grew up in.

[Ashley]

Which county is that, by the way?

[Doug Schoenrock]

Lincoln County. So right on the Alabama border. And, you know, we still have the farm, although it is for sale now. I don't have a lot of time for it right now, but we sold the house with 10 acres and then actually moved to Alabama. Huntsville, only 20 miles south. But we moved there because, A, our daughter was going to a preparatory school, which paid off well because she ended up going to the Air Force Academy.

[Dan]

Amazing.

[Doug Schoenrock]

And. And B, was I wanted variety in grocery opportunities. And in that little town of 6,000 people in Tennessee, there wasn't a whole lot of choices for groceries.

[Ashley]

Right, right.

[Doug Schoenrock]

So I enjoyed having eight different venues to shop for groceries.

[Ashley]

And Huntsville is a phenomenal town.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Fastest growing city in the state of Alabama.

[Dan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Robbie]

How did you.

[Dan]

How did you, like, put your hand up for this? Well, I even know you were in the mix.

[Ashley]

You had officially retired.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah, I had officially retired, and my wife and I, Linda had bought a home in Michigan. She's from western Michigan. So we bought a home on a lake that is adjacent to Lake Michigan. So we have dunes between us and the lake, and we have a channel that goes down to the big lake. And it's. It's a little town called Saugatuck, Michigan. Google it. It's a. Population is 800 in the winter and 25,000 in the summer. The grocery options and very unique grocery options. But. And so we have a home on the water there. We remodeled it. Took us about four years to do. We thought, yeah, someday we'll retire in it, Literally. I moved in that home for about three weeks and got the call from a recruiter who I knew who I'd used at Ducks Unlimited.

[Ashley]

I was gonna say Dan.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Dan Sherman. You may know Dan.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Doug Schoenrock]

And with Explore Company and. And did a lot of search work for us at du. And then says, you need to really look at this. And he kind of knew my conservation pedigree and my conservation DNA. And so I said, well, sure, I'd love to be interested. It intrigued me because.

[Dan]

Were you looking to get back into workforce?

[Doug Schoenrock]

Not at all. And so I'm kind of uniquely. I'm unique in that I'm doing this because I want to do it.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Doug Schoenrock]

You know, and it's not about the money or I'm not using this as a step to another career.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Doug Schoenrock]

I'm. I'm passionate about this. And so when you work your passion, I think you can be More effective.

[Ashley]

And so you obviously had spent a lot of time in Arkansas through your.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Du is our backyard. I lived in Memphis for 12 years. Arkansas was backyard. Arkansas is a sportsman's paradise.

[Ashley]

It really is.

[Doug Schoenrock]

And so I got into a lot of hunting and fishing opportunities here and hiking and I mean, we would even go to concerts from Memphis to Fayetteville to see good concerts because they had a good university there and they had good concerts. So I knew Arkansas quite a bit, quite well, had no idea the depth of this job. And, and I've had a lot of eye opening moments in the last four months.

[Ashley]

You've had some serious right off the bat challenges.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Talk to us about what's happened in the last.

[Doug Schoenrock]

So I, I think I'm, I'm a very strong believer that God put you in certain places for certain reasons. But, but, you know, in my first four months, we've had the first two bear fatalities in the state of Arkansas.

[Dan]

That's right.

[Doug Schoenrock]

In 130, I was going to say.

[Ashley]

Like, wow, over 100 years.

[Doug Schoenrock]

1889 or 1882 or something like that.

[Dan]

Wow.

[Doug Schoenrock]

And black bears, which are not typical, you know, to have in any state to have that type of crises. Both situations where the victims have been able to photograph bears.

That we thought were the assailant bears. One we knew for sure, the other one we didn't. The one the first bear attacked, a gentleman on a tractor, which is abnormal for a bear to approach a moving tractor to begin with. That bear that, that victim was literally med flatted out, had a lot of swirl around that area. And when the officers decided to follow that bear to the direction where they said it went in the woods, that bear was 20 yards in the woods waiting after a helicopter banner and ambulance. Been there in all kinds of vehicles. Young bear savvy, Palmao and little bear, small bear. But I'll tell you, even cubs have inch and a half long claws, you know, so they can do a lot of damage and they, they're very strong. And so the.

Officers dispatched that bear. We did a complete necropsy on it. We used, utilized several different universities to help us with that. And we found lesions on the brain. Everything else is pretty normal with that bear.

[Ashley]

No rabies, right?

[Doug Schoenrock]

No rabies, no distemper, no parvo, no.

We've tested it for Covid. Nothing. Only thing we found were lesions on the brain. And you know, to go much deeper than that, I, I really don't know that much about how to do that. But my understanding is it's quite an endeavor to then do further necropsy on the brain to understand cause and effect.

[Ashley]

Right.

[Doug Schoenrock]

And especially in a, in a brain of a bear. Yeah. And so we knew the bear wasn't right. Yeah, yeah. But you know, in defense of the bears, this cub was 70 pounds.

Female bears, I believe, only breed every two years.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Doug Schoenrock]

And the young stay with them, you know, for about a year and a half. And then mom boots them out and they have about an 8 mile range. And so mom leads, Junior, kicks him out after she kind of gets out of her range, he's got to go find a girlfriend or the new family to take him in or food. So they roam. So we get a lot of, a lot of bear sightings in May, June, July of young yearlings, year and a half old bears that have been displaced and they're out trying to find new home territories. They're hungry and they're looking for food. And so they may come to a campground and find that it's comfortable, there's a lot of people, there's a lot of trash, there's things for bears to get into. And so it was very tragic to have the first one. And then literally a month later, four, three weeks, three and a half weeks later, we had a suspected bear killing at a campground where an individual had been camping solo and that individual had been sending photos to his family of a bear that had been coming into his campsite. And again, rare behavior for a bear to come into a campsite. And he didn't, the family didn't hear from that individual for a few days. And so the sheriff was called to do a welfare check, wellness check. And they found, they found a body about 180ft from that campsite. And it had multiple bite wounds throughout the body. And we don't know if it was.

[Dan]

Postmortem or don't know.

[Doug Schoenrock]

We don't know any of those things. And so the autopsy was, was causal. Death was animal mauling because it was obvious, but we didn't know its species. We, you know, we hoped it wasn't anything, but it was either a bear, cat or dog. That's what they had, those species, not a dog, but you know, that family. And we just got DNA results back last week that it was indeed a bear. And, but we did not. And then we harvested a bear put for surveillance up in the area. Cameras, traps. Within three days after we removed that body, a bear returned to that same site that matched the bear in the photos that we had had from the individual cell phone. And we had biologists with them and we thought that was the bear and we actually harvested that bear and we had fingers crossed it was right bear and it wasn't. DNA did not match. And so you know that was, that was just a week ago basically tomorrow that we got that news and so we immediately went to press with it.

Obviously the family is not happy. Obviously there's a lot of fear in the state overbears, which I think that's unfounded. Although given the circumstances I certainly understand it.

[Dan]

Sure.

[Doug Schoenrock]

But it all, you know, this encourages all of us to be more bear wise, especially with black bears, to try to scare them off and don't let them get this nexus between humans and bears.

[Ashley]

What's the current harvest situation in Arkansas?

[Doug Schoenrock]

We, we have bear zones. We have about a population of about 8,000 bears in the state. We have, we set a harvest goal of 400.

[Ashley]

400.

[Doug Schoenrock]

And we're, you know, we're in the.

[Dan]

No bait, no dogs. Right.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Bait on private. No dogs.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Doug Schoenrock]

If you hunt WMA's Wildlife Management Areas, it's no bait, no dogs. Yep. And so most of our bears are probably harvested in on private and during archery season. We had harvested during the, during the bear archery season about 270 bears.

[Dan]

Wow.

[Doug Schoenrock]

On private land.

[Dan]

Amazing.

[Doug Schoenrock]

And well, we'll struggle this year to hit 400. You know we're around 360 now. But modern firearm for deer is not open yet. We will be soon. When, when you deer hunt in Arkansas, you also get a bear tag.

[Dan]

Oh, you don't, you don't buy an extra tag. It comes with your deer license.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Comes with your deer license. I believe it does. And so what happens is we run it on a quote. It's a cites animal so we have to call them in. Course. And so we set the quota actually under than what the habitat can afford. I mean when I could kill over 400. We set the quota knowing that on any given weekend if we exceed the quota, we might exceed it by four to five. We're still going to be within the harvest management plan. Yeah, but we won't. I don't think we get to quota this year.

[Ashley]

So even after these two fatalities, you don't think more people are going to get out last minute?

[Doug Schoenrock]

I'm not, I'm not. You know, bear hunters might be more opportunistic. Bear hunter, deer hunters might be because of that. But you know, we've had a lot of hate email in the last week about mismanagement and some of the stories are just, you can't make some of them understand that. But you know, we can't DNA check every bear. We can't go tranquilize every bear in the state and find the bear. No, these are wild animals, bottom line. And.

We will maintain surveillance in that area in conjunction with the sheriff's department. It's a US Forest Service campground and privately held within US Food Service. I mean US Forest Service. And.

That surveillance will stop at the end of October. And then if the sheriff likes to continue his surveillance and he can do so what we're trying to do is not cause a panic, but encourage people to be more bear wise.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

So those two things don't be the.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Well, that's the. That's rule number one. If you. A bear should be afraid of a human being and if they're properly afraid, are you going to see is the back end of a bear as they're running away? Well.

[Ashley]

And you don't ever want to, you know, you don't ever want to blame anyone. But it does. It's a little concerning if there are multiple pictures of a bear returning over and over to the same spot.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah. And you know, in respect for the families who have had these tragic losses. We're not going to go there. You know, that's just something that.

[Ashley]

And you don't.

[Doug Schoenrock]

We've had loss of life here and this is. That is the worst strategy that mankind can experience. And so we're not. We're not gonna. We're not gonna go there. And we are gonna try to step up education.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Doug Schoenrock]

On bare human interaction.

[Ashley]

Just make sure people know.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Correct.

[Ashley]

You know, be careful, be careful, be careful.

[Doug Schoenrock]

There are wild animals.

[Dan]

One of our. I don't know if you know this or not, but one of our first. Probably in the first six projects that we ever did as the Origin with Blood Origins then. But as the Origins foundation, we raised I think $38,000 for you and bought a bunch of bear collars and worked with a bear biologist. I set up a new.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Oh, thank you.

[Dan]

It was the new coastal zone bear population that they needed data on. And we brought Dan Cabella into it. Right. Did a whole episode with Cabela's family foundation and the hard truths of conservation.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yes.

[Dan]

That bears in Arkansas.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Well, you know that that effort is probably one of the greatest conservation stories in the state of Arkansas.

[Dan]

Agreed.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Where we were removing bears from the northwestern part of the state, coloring them and translating, transmitting them into the southern part of the state, transporting them. And now we have bear sightings, given the time of year in pretty much every county, we don't have resident species, you know, in every county. But southwest Arkansas is really getting strong on bear harvest.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Doug Schoenrock]

And so that, that is a as tragic as having the last couple of deaths are in the last couple of months. The conservation success story of bears in the state where they used to be natural is really, really, really important.

[Dan]

And I saw, talking about wildlife and things happening in the last four months, I saw a video by Brent Reeves.

Of Mountain lion.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yes, sir.

[Dan]

Going through Arkansas. Did you see that? Yeah, well, that it's got millions of use.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah. So Brent Reeves sent this out and Brent is with Meteor podcast. All right.

[Dan]

Yeah, he's got his own podcast actually.

[Doug Schoenrock]

That video was shot by Michelle Fur, who's an AGFC biologist.

[Dan]

Amazing.

[Doug Schoenrock]

While she was deer hunting.

[Dan]

Yeah. She was in a stand, she was.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Up in the tree stand.

[Dan]

And this mountain line came through.

[Doug Schoenrock]

I've never seen a mountain. And I, I watched it because I've never seen a mountain lion at peace. You know, usually when you encounter them, they're gone.

[Dan]

Right.

[Doug Schoenrock]

And this mountain line was just doing its thing, smelling, checking this out, yawning, whatever, just walking through the woods. How many times have you seen a mountain lion other than on like a National Geographic something? You know, you just don't see that. And that's, that's a, that's apropos because a week before that, two weeks before that, we had 160 pound male mountain lion hit by a car in Hotchkiss Spring counties. That's right. So, you know, so I'm getting questions. Are we importing killer bears and are we importing killer mountain lions to the state? And we're not. So we don't believe we have a breathable population. The breeding population in Arkansas, they're all transient males. The last three that have been this one and then the prior two, one was found by a forest service employee and the other one was shot by deer hunter, which incidentally, the one that was shot by deer hunter, that a cat was filmed on a, on a trail cam and ran into something. We were able to get like a stick or a fence or something. We were able to get DNA off of that. And then this cat was harvested 160 miles south of there, same DNA. And it was a short time. I want to say three to four days later.

[Dan]

No, look, it's amazing. We've got, we've got a cheetah relocation project in Mozambique right now and it's an open range system just like you would see in Arkansas with mountain lions. We've had cats move 400 kilometers.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah.

[Dan]

In three days.

[Doug Schoenrock]

The first two cats, we don't have the DNA results on this cat yet. We, the one that just was just hit by a car. But the prior two both came out of South Dakota.

[Dan]

Yeah, it's funny.

[Ashley]

South Dakota.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah. There's a DNA database of these predators similar to what law enforcement has for human beings. Okay. So we can, we can plug into that DNA database and kind of plug those. They're just numbers. And we got a match of a South Dakota strain.

[Ashley]

That is crazy. I had no idea.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah. Now we don't know about this one, but we suspect possibility. It's.

[Dan]

That was the whole argument. We did a big documentary on mountain lion hunting with hounds in Colorado to defend mountain lion hunting with sharks and we, we kicked their asses like we won by a landslide. But the argument there was specifically to this point was that the Colorado mountain lion population is so strong that you're seeing so much immigration. Immigration really out of the population into the Kansas of the world, into the Nebraska of the world, that then pushes further into the Dakotas and down into, you know, Arkansas is not as far stretch of the imagination to get to.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah, I don't know the biology. I don't know if the males are displaced because there's a more dominant male and he runs them off. I don't really know that biology of that species. But I think it's actually, I think it's a wonderful thing that we have cats in Arkansas. I think they're amazingly.

Intriguing species and we don't have any records of a human slash nexus with cats, you know.

[Dan]

Right.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Although when we found, when we got this cat, an officer got a call, the cat was hit, officer responded, recovered the cat and, and Henderson University now down in Arkadelphia has that cat for research. They've already put out some very good video of necropsy efforts on this cat. And, and they're preserving all the bones, the skin, the hair, everything, the hide, the skull. And it's going to be great for education and we're excited about that. And, but we, we had, we had emails as you always get when you get emails on stuff like this. Some there were cat, there were scratches on this cat's face and we literally had emails that people thought it was their house cat that was sparring with this mountain. 160 pound mountain line, which it is not.

[Ashley]

Imagine the emails you get.

[Doug Schoenrock]

It's amazing. And first of all, house cat wouldn't scratch a mountain lion. And if they did the mountain, I would probably punt on that house cat about 80 yards, you know, or eat.

[Ashley]

Or eat it.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah. And so it's. The moments of brevity in midst of the job are fun. And for someone coming from a for profit sector and passionate about the outdoors and conservation.

We deal with a lot of heavy stuff. But to get those little moments of brevity, it's, it's fun. I'm, I'm amassing.

I have a book that my wife gave me a journal and I'm, I'm a big journaler and then I'm just writing titles and I'm up to 40 titles in four months now of emails. And the name of the book is you can't make this Up. You know, and just stuff that happens and, you know, whether I ever ride it or not, but it just jogs my memory on a lot of unique things that I've had happen. You know, we had a, a six foot monitor lizard walking down the streets of Little Rock. Just where'd this come from?

[Ashley]

Out of somebody's house.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah, they were suspecting, I mean, and so enforcement's calling saying, sir, we, we have a six foot monitor lizard. What do we do? I said they bite. They're meat eaters. They're, they're dangerous. They have a strong bite. I'll be careful. They may, I don't think they're venomous, but I think that they can inflict some damage.

[Dan]

Serious bacterial infections.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah, that's what it is. And so we don't know whether to tranquit. What if we kill it? We don't want to kill it. And it got in some water and away it goes.

[Ashley]

So, so you lost it?

[Doug Schoenrock]

It's somewhere in Arkansas right now, we think. Now will it survive the winter? We don't know. You know, they're not, they're not too used to our climate, I don't think, but. And then two weeks ago we got a 27 foot Burmese python.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

Oh, no, no. Did you catch that one?

[Doug Schoenrock]

We, that was. So the illegal trade of, of especially amphibians.

[Ashley]

Right.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Is big within the United States and there are licenses, you have to harbor some things and their licenses that you can't get. And.

Social media is a, is a great tool to patrol to see where some of these are. We know the legal traders and so in, on occasion we encounter illegal traders and then we, we work with legal traders and we work with the zoo on, you know, finding homes for these animals that, so we don't have to euthanize them. So we want it to be legal. And but we found this python in an illegal. Someone that was harboring illegal reptiles among about a bunch of other things. Oh, I'm sure there's investigations going on, so I can't talk about that yet. Going on with that.

[Ashley]

So people generally go to Arkansas for ducks or to fish.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Correct.

[Ashley]

And you have had a major situation with fish.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yes.

[Ashley]

Lately that you've had to deal with. Can you talk about that a little bit?

[Doug Schoenrock]

I'd be glad to. Yeah, you're right. Actually, the trout fishery, Coal I call it cold water fishery in the northern north and north central part of the state is probably bigger than duck hunting. When you look at overall revenue brought to the state and more participants for.

[Ashley]

Sure people can do it.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah, we got 105,000 duck hunters. We probably have, you know, 350,000 fishermen come to stay or more. I think we sell nearly a. Nearly a million fishing license in state. They're not all trout fishing. So there are no native trout to Arkansas. Okay. It's all, all of all the fisheries are created by tailwaters and which is. There are thermal kinds in the lakes behind the, behind the dams. They create the right amount of dissolved oxygen, the right temperature for trout. So when, when the corps of engineers or whoever built some of these dams, part of the mitigation for.

Destroying river habitat was to.

Put out the right temperature water, what the right water column of water for trout. So Arkansas evolved a trout fishery. And so we have like seven or eight fish hatcheries in the state. Two of them are cold water. One of them, Jim Hinkle hatchery on the Spring river, got devastated in the floods of April of this year. That was, you know, right before I took the chop. But that, that, that actually was really doing a lot of stocking. Everything we do is stock now. There are, there are big fish because we have some catch and release areas. The other one that we get most of our stock fish from is the Norfolk Hatchery, which is below Norfolk Dam.

[Ashley]

And that has the kids stream.

[Doug Schoenrock]

It does as a kid strap fishing stream there as well. That's managed by us. And that hatchery is a federal hatchery. And with all the rains in the spring that Arkansas had, the lake went up to keep the lake level low.

[Dan]

For release more water.

[Doug Schoenrock]

They had to release more water which they're releasing more cold water. It forced the warmer water down from the rains. Right. So we reduced that water column and when we reduced it, it got warmer because there was more warm water putting warmth into it.

And it also produced some heavy metals and some nitrogen Sulfate or sulfite. That was devastating. And so the Norfolk Hatchery, which is a federal hatchery, had massive die offs in the tunes of millions of fish. They were 100% responsible for two or three of our rivers in stocking. And I'm not being a pessimist, I'm being a realist here. That hatchery will probably not put another fish in the water in Arkansas for at least 10 to 16 months.

[Dan]

Yeah, I was going to say. So we had that year to two years before they get.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Well, you know, again we, we, we get a lot of 8 inch fish and we got a lot of 8 inch from this hatchery. When they realized the problem we got some and put them in our raceways where we had capabilities at the Jim Ingle Hatchery. And then they released some 8 inch fish as well. Because rather have them fend for themselves in a river than die in a raceway, you know. So they're going to pretty much vacate this hatchery and have to clean it out.

[Dan]

Are you changing any of the fishing regulations? Don't keep.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yes.

[Dan]

Drop it to one fish to the 16 months. So we don't be able to put fish in.

[Doug Schoenrock]

On the White river which is our most famous river. We only had about a half a mile of catch and release below Bullsholes dam on that river. We have now extended that to 45 miles downstream to the, to the nexus of Norfolk River. This comes out of where that hatchery was and, and the White river it's catch and release only for the full Norfolk and the White. And then below that it's a creel limit of two versus a statewide normal crew limit of five.

[Dan]

That's right.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Only one can be over 14 inches.

[Dan]

Gotcha.

[Doug Schoenrock]

And and then we've gone to two other rivers that were depending on that Norfolk Hatchery to stock and have reduced the creel from five to two.

[Dan]

A lot of people would say, you know, when you see regulations like that in hunting you are always worried that you've lost it forever.

I'm assuming once things are rolling and getting up to speed that things will be put back to how they were.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Water will be there.

[Dan]

Yeah.

[Doug Schoenrock]

And we will get back to speed. We feel like taking this drastic movement, which it was drastic is the right thing to do. You can always improve on. It's only 120 day emergency regulation. And so the commission will have to vote on that after 120 days to see if they want to re up it again. But we felt like taking that nuclear option initially was the best thing as opposed to doing a reduced creel, finding out that didn't work, and then going to a nuclear option. So. But by and large, you know, the guides whose livelihood depend on this are in support of it. They understand it. And it's, you know, it's a, it's a testament to our commissioners to, to make that difficult decision. This is probably one of the heaviest decisions that a commission would ever have to make.

[Dan]

A lot of you've had multiple. The biometer.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yes.

[Dan]

You know, water level drop of 25%.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yes.

[Dan]

You know, Austin was saying changing. It wasn't. It went from you know, brute brawn to hearts and minds. Right. And just saying, look, you're not doing it for your ducks tomorrow. You're doing it for your kids. Ducks in 50, where's time?

[Ashley]

And you were a part of that from the DU standpoint.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah. When I was president du, I instituted a focus on long du and we actually did a short film on it called Green tree reservoirs. Gtrs, short for green tree reservoirs, are the reason why duck hunters want to come to Arkansas to see, to see a. Mallards coming through the timber. And we did a wonderful job back in the 40s and 50s of building, you know, flooded areas for duck hunting. And we did a good job of getting water on them. We did a terrible job of getting water off of them. And so we're going through a GTR strategy right now for all great GTRs across the state to try to.

Improve the hydrology, which gives young oak trees the opportunity to grow. And so we know how long water can stay on these DTRs. That doesn't always marry up with a 60 day duck season. Okay. It doesn't always flood it as soon as they want. So we get a lot of people ticked off at us for that. But if we don't do this, these are, these imperiled landscapes are going to disappear. And unfortunately, it takes an oak tree a long time to be a mass producer. And so the work we're doing on GTRS today won't manifest itself for 75 to 100 years.

[Dan]

What's that saying of.

You probably know it, Doug. It's like the most selfish act, selfless act that you can do is plant a tree that you know you'll never sit under.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Exactly. That's what we're doing. And we realize that. But. But we also realize that because we've had the good old days, we've. We've experienced them, we've seen it, and we want generations from the future to have that.

[Ashley]

It's hard for clubs Though that have that flooded timber. Not to flood for a season.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Oh, it's such a mission.

[Ashley]

It's so hard to sit out even one year and to convince them that that is going to be so beneficial for future years. But to miss even when. When you have so much money.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah, you know it is. And unfortunately we can't make trees grow faster. And you know, now a duck's. One of a duck's favorite food and best energy foods for migrating are called moist oil units, which are weeds, weed seeds. They and ducks fly south to get out of the weather and find food. And they burn all their energy when they fly south. Then they winter in Arkansas or Louisiana or Texas, build those fat reserves back up so they can fly back north to breed and do it all again. And they've done that for millions of years. So it's all about energy days. And we know that moist oil unit crops provide strong energy days for ducks.

We've encouraged some landowners to.

Focus more on more soil units and try to keep their timber dry at certain times of the year to help with regeneration and regrowth and refuges and refugees.

[Ashley]

Because moist. I believe there was a big push to get away from ag on the refuges last year and thankfully that was defeated.

[Doug Schoenrock]

We put them into most soil units.

[Ashley]

Yeah.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah. We're not planting corn and millet and stuff on them. We're putting moistural units on them which are better food lasts a whole lot longer and the input cost is a lot less. It's. So it's better all around for that.

[Dan]

Win, win. Win.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah.

[Dan]

I know. We're getting close to the time that you have to cut out.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah. I apologize.

[Dan]

No, no, no problems.

[Ashley]

What is your vision for the agency?

[Doug Schoenrock]

Sure.

[Ashley]

What do you want to see happen?

[Doug Schoenrock]

Well, for one thing, coming from for profit, I'm not used to the speed of government.

So I challenge my team a lot to. To be more effective and faster. And that. That's probably not heard a lot in the halls of AGFC. And the other thing is youth. The governor on June 6 announced a huge youth educational initiative program where we're doing. We set a goal of 30 pilot schools to do conservation education as part of their curriculum, K through 12. We have 65 schools signed up for right now and we will.

[Dan]

Wow.

[Doug Schoenrock]

We will make Arkansas the preeminent state in the nation prior to our conservation education.

[Ashley]

Fantastic.

[Doug Schoenrock]

And that was a. That was a big thing that I believed in it. Do you too. Is to involve new generations. And so I think. I think one of the best things we can all do as sportsmen. To give back is to provide opportunity for future generations. And that's what we're doing. So those two things I like to. I'd like to speed things up a little bit. I'd like to. I want to make sure our education initiative is. Is rolling at warp speed and then, and then trying to convince the public that we're on their side, that we're doing the right things. We're not making willy nilly decisions. Everything we do is science based on. And I learned that through du and it's not always popular because it's not fast enough for a lot of sportsmen. And I get that. I'm a sportsman too. But we're doing it for the right reasons.

[Ashley]

Right?

[Doug Schoenrock]

Science based.

[Ashley]

Do you think you're going to be able to duck hunt? More or less, since you took this job?

[Doug Schoenrock]

I have to be judgmental about where I go.

So I'm a public land hunter. I enjoy that. I did that before joining Ducks Unlimited. I did that when I was president of Ducks Unlimited. I'd. I'd go to a draw at an area in Alabama, really? And I'd hunt with some guys and they didn't know I was a president of Ducks Unlimited. And I'd hunt and have a good hunt. And maybe we killed three or four ducks, maybe we didn't, whatever, but it's a good time. And then one day I was in a, in a, in a sporting goods store and wearing a DU President jacket, I ran into one of the guys I hunted with. He said, well, where'd you get that jacket? I said, it's mine, is all. You're the president of ducks. And I said, yeah, well, you just hunted with us last weekend. I said, yeah, it was a good time, wasn't it? Yeah, but.

[Robbie]

So.

[Doug Schoenrock]

It'S not about the person at all. It's. It's about the passion. And I really believe that. So. So anyway, bottom line is, yeah, I'll get some duck hunting in. I have some friends who own places in Arkansas, not big clubs, who I know that I can go hunting with anytime just to get that outdoor fix. And there's no agenda attached to it. I like that.

[Dan]

Brilliant. Well, know that the Origins foundation is here for you.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Like, thank you.

[Dan]

That's what we were built for. You need a bullhorn. If you need to use the podcast, if you need us to raise some money for a conservation project, if you need us to put some education materials into your education effort, we have lots of those.

[Doug Schoenrock]

I really appreciate that.

[Ashley]

We appreciate you and we appreciate and love your staff.

[Doug Schoenrock]

So thank you. I couldn't do this without an excellent staff and I think I have the best. I brag on.

[Ashley]

They're great.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Yeah.

[Ashley]

So, well, best of luck. We are excited about you and we're excited about the future of Arkansas game.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Thank you. We will be calling also. Thank you.

[Ashley]

Thanks for being on.

[Doug Schoenrock]

Thank you.

[Robbie]

Well, that's it for today.

Appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.