B (2:18)

I'm really glad you finished the sentence out.

A (2:22)

I'm sorry. The first happen.

B (2:24)

What are we doing here today?

A (2:26)

You're telling the whole world, Leon, every time I have you on this podcast it's about something controversial.

B (2:42)

Yeah, I know. And you twist my arm to come on here. You manipulate me. You manipulate me.

A (2:48)

Manipulate.

B (2:49)

It's life and Death.

A (2:50)

No, it's not about manipulation. It's about giving an opportunity. You know, that's the thing about this world is we lack the ability right now or the bandwidth for people to have discussions. And that's the whole forum of this discussion. So that's why I wanted to have you on and I wanted to have your voice being able to be said and, and just sort of like, you know, throw some, you know, get some clarity around it from your perspective, you know.

B (3:26)

No, Robbie. Yeah. Just again, thank you very much for what you do for all of us and conservation and communities and everybody, you know, everybody involved. And yeah, again, thank you for giving us a platform to, to balance things out a little bit for, you know, for the public and, you know, those, those interested?

A (3:48)

Yeah. And Leon, look, I want to, I want to be completely fair here. I don't want to bias this. You obviously, you know, we are a pro hunting organization. You are a hunter. I also don't want to assume anything in this. I don't know much about what's going on. I do know the history of NG13 based on the work that we've done previously, based on what started in 2022 with the big tusker going down, which started this, literally this whole train moving forward. Right. We've done the Fine Balance documentary that we interviewed you in NG13. But, you know, what's happened over the last, like, you know, dare I say 12 months to 14 months is something I'm not very privy to. And so I don't want to assume anything. I just want to. I'm going to open it up really. There's been an article that has come out in the Currency, Currency Co Za and the. It was penned by a guard of Zimbabwe called Oscar and Color. And the title of that document or that that article was When Political Power Enters the Hunting Fields and the byline. And it's just for everyone's sake. What should be a windfall for a sand community has become a battleground, pivoting rival operators and local leaders against each other over control of a lucrative trophy hunting area for elephants, lions and leopards. And so I just want to. I just want to open it up to you. I'll just let. I think what we should do is go through a timeline of things or maybe even just start by saying, why is this even a controversy to start with? Like, if people aren't familiar with Botswana and what's going on in Botswana, why is this a controversy?

B (5:41)

Right, Robbie, let's get, let's maybe get back to that One. Yeah, I really, you know, the anti hunting rhetoric now I think we've been hunting in. The moratorium was lifted maybe five years ago and you know, the rhetoric continues. First and foremost, the moratorium was lifted through a national dialogue.

A (6:08)

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B (9:18)

Without looking at the economics of it or the science behind was lifted after consultation, extensive consultation of the. Of citizens of the country going kotla by kotla, which is, you know, village court. Translation to village court.

A (9:39)

Yeah. Every village in Botswana has like a Kotla, which is like the, the meeting place. It's where democracy occurs on the village level. Right. It's where everyone comes together, the chief comes together. They make democratic decisions by community, either by voting or by consensus, that is. And it's a place, it's a physical place as well. Not only just, you know, it's a meeting place, but sort of vehicle of what they are undertaking.

B (10:04)

Yeah, so I lost you a little bit there, Robbie. But yeah, basically, basically that, you know, that that's what it's all about. And because it was a moratorium for five or six years and when it was lifted, you know, there was a lot of controversy. But we still, it's still ongoing and we don't understand why. Well, I sort of do and I want to be frank, but, you know, this is how NGOs, anti NGOs generate, generate money. That, you know, debt for me is, is, is, is the bottom line as far as our, you know, our hunting quote is concerned in it. It doesn't really have an effect on, on the overall population. It's very sensitive and you know, this has been thoroughly discussed by far greater and more knowledgeable experts than myself. You know, it's just that hunting is always being controversial and it's sort of low, low hanging fruit.

A (11:07)

Leon, let's, let's focus on this, let's just focus on NG13 for a second before we get into the whole political mess that has occur last 12 months to 14 months. NG13 came into the news in 2022 because of the big tusker, the big 100 pounder that, that you managed to, to hunt and kill. Up until that point, what had happened in NG13?

B (11:36)

Well, Robbie, there was, there was absolutely nothing. The sand community that Oscar talks about I think have been trying to get the rights to NG13 since 2003. If I'm not, not, not mistaken. That's when the Chekhu Trust was established. And I think, yeah, I think they were awarded the first quota was, was 20, 20, 21. So you know, do the math.

A (12:06)

And in that intervening in the, the 2014-2020, which is for everyone's edification, Botswana used to be able to hunt. 1996 through 2014. 2014 new administration came in. Hunting was banned from 2014 to 2019. So five year period did. What happened to NG13 in that time frame? Was there an ecotourism operator that came into NG13 to operate?

B (12:33)

You came up there with a team and you know, we, we, we discussed it but there was absolutely nothing. There was nothing. There's no activity in NG13. There was one cattle post that has since since moved due to excessive cattle rustling coming from Angola and, and, and Zambia. We'll speak a bit more about that later. But I think the, the old man there lost 87, 87 head of cattle in maybe a 10 month.

A (13:02)

What do you mean rosters? Are they, what are they? They're coming across the border because right there you don't show the Caprivi between. Correct. Caprivi is between Botswana and Angola and Zambia.

B (13:12)

So it's a mix between, they say Angolans and Zambians and they just come across the Caprivi strip which is I think 20, 30 kilometers wide. And they. Okay. And I was actually on the phone to the MP earlier today, maybe two hours ago, and he said, you know, we really need to push the infrastructure in NG13 and put up a permanent camp. Put up a permanent camp on the Namibian border with water, et cetera, et cetera, to curb the wrestling the cattle.

A (13:44)

Just because it's desolate. There's no people, there's no people in NG13. Right.

B (13:50)

And they're stealing, I mean the cattle from where they're taking the cattle to the Namibian border. In some places it's 80km in a straight line and that, you know. Yeah, oh, that's all on, that's all on foot. And then they still got to get them into.

A (14:06)

So they're, they're, they're penetrating from Angola and zambia deep into NG13 what's under. What's. What's under NG13? So they're coming into NG11 and grabbing cattle.

B (14:19)

That's where the cattle are they on the main road, the southern. The southern edge of NG11 on the main gravel road just off that maybe 10km. So there's cattle posts and stuff, and that's where they're stealing the cattle from. And it's. It's a. It's a weekly occurrence.

A (14:40)

Okay. So again, I want to. I want to keep the whole, like, politics aside for a second. And it keeps sort of tied to the narrative of there's still people today. Even though we've had social dialogue in Botswana, we've had many meetings. Even the National Elephant Management Plan that the Botswana Department of Wildlife and Parks put on. I know that they went around and met like, eight different places. Open stakeholder meetings. I think the first day was closed government and stakeholder meetings. But the second day was open to anybody, communities. Anybody who wanted to come in and understand what's happening in the elephant management plan could come in and engage on that. On that management plan. There's still people today that say we should ban hunting.

B (15:27)

Yep. Well, yeah, Robbie, it's. It's another topic you and I have discussed, and I don't know if you want me to. To. To look at NG13 in particular, you know, the benefit.

A (15:41)

Yeah, let's use NG13 as. Let's just. NG13 as.

B (15:45)

I want to go back to. To. To. The most basic justification, so to say, so to speak, is land use. NG13. NG13 is a. Is a marginal area. It's a seasonal area. Like I say, it's.

A (16:04)

What do you mean?

B (16:04)

It's a seasonal area because it lacks permanent water, like a perennial river. The wildlife migrates. There is a. There is a lot of water during the rainy season and up, say, till June, July, depending on the year, in natural waterholes, which we call. Which we call pans. But once those dry up, you know, the wildlife migrates and it's. It's also a dispersal zone. And this is what it was in vigils for way back when, when they established these concessions. And also more recently, these marginal areas perform as a buffer to the prime Okavango Delta, you know, between your core wildlife areas and human settlement. That's where NG13 is, and that's at buffer, and it provides that dispersal zone for wildlife, and it also creates incentive and there's, you know, economic activity, etc. And stops, you know, I wouldn't say entirely stops poaching, but mitigates poaching and, and, and encroachment into wildlife habitat.

A (17:19)

So if you weren't there, if you weren't there, what would, what would NG13 be used for?

B (17:26)

If NG13. Because photographic is not a viable option.

A (17:31)

So it would be, it's been that, that. Let's just lay that to rest, right? If they had five years of opportunity to tender on the place, nobody went.

B (17:41)

In there, you know, and yet decades prior to that and nobody is shown.

A (17:45)

And I think you just, and I think you just articulated and it's what we saw, right. For an ecotourism operation to be viable, you need two. You need one thing and then you need a second thing desperately. Number one is you need density of animals. Like you need people to go up there to look and see animals. I think we saw, we did a game drive with you and in 45 minutes we saw two animals.

B (18:11)

Yeah.

A (18:12)

And I think the statistics say for ecotourism operations to be viable, it's an animal encounter is six minutes. So we had an animal encounter, two animal encounters in six 60. And in the drive in, there was like a three hour drive in, we had three animal encounters. So it was like a 45 minute per animal encounter. So they don't have the animals, which I understand, but then you also mentioned it's seasonal.

B (18:35)

Y. Exactly.

A (18:38)

So that's moving animals in and out, in and out, in and out. Unless you put water down and you put permanent water down, that'll hold the animals.

B (18:44)

Right, but, but even that doesn't hold them permanently because of the, you know, the vegetation dries up, the mopani, you know, the leaves fall down and the grass loses its nutritional content and, and they move.

A (18:58)

And so the animals.

B (18:59)

That's where it's designed, you know, it's just designed.

A (19:02)

Yeah, yeah. Animals leave. So ecotourism can't go in there is anything else. Can they use it for livestock? Can they use it for cattle?

B (19:10)

Not really. Because of, Geez, I would say disease again, a lack of water, the number one thing. And again, you know, you just reminded me they migrate. The cattle. The livestock in the old days used to migrate with the wildlife. So like now the cattle are in the backcountry in NG11 and as it dries up, because the grazing is better up there, but as it dries up, they, they, they migrate south and end up, you know, on the Okavango.

A (19:49)

Hmm. So there's also been some, you know, Mike Chase and Elephants Without Borders has put out A latest report, 2025 report that shows that one of the Things that they are concerned with beyond the hunting quota, that's some subject for a different podcast, is the influence of drought and poaching. They mentioned those two, but they focus a lot on poaching because drought, it is what it is. It's Southern Africa, it's sub Saharan Africa. But they do focus on poaching and their suggestion that there is elevated poaching now starting to occur in these northern Botswanan units or concessions. I think back in 20, 22, 23, he did a flight where they saw six carcasses, maybe. Then a second flight, they saw like another 30 or 40. And then this latest report, they said they mentioned something along the lines of like 120, 140 carcasses. Don't quote me on those numbers. They are probably not right, but they're in the vicinity of the, of the order of magnitude that he is seeing, which alarmed him. What do you know about it?

B (21:01)

So, Robbie, this is again, you know, coming back to. Back to Mike Chase. I mean, Mike is a. Mike is a personal friend of mine. We grew up together. And, you know, he. He told me where poaching occurs is where you don't have presence. So, I mean, just at that basic level, if there's Nobody there in NG30, no photographic outfit, no hunting outfit, then what.

A (21:32)

But don't you. Didn't we. We. We encountered. The Botswana Defense Force has a post right there on the border.

B (21:37)

Yeah. So the Botswana Defense Force isn't really, well, well enough equipped. There is a border, I think NG13, border with the Caprivi or Namibia is. Is 125km. There are two. There are two BDF camps or Botswana Defense Force camps. One right on the Quando and another one maybe.

A (22:00)

Yeah, that's the one we saw.

B (22:01)

That's the one we went to then. Then one, I think it's about 15km west, directly west. So for 120km you've got an open border, basically.

A (22:13)

How long is your border? How long is that?

B (22:15)

It's about 125km from east, running east, west. And then, you know, and then from there it's still unmanned. Going to the Okavango river, where it enters into Botswana, a place called Mohembo. And that's probably another 50 kilometers. So you're looking at almost 200 kilometers, at least 170 kilometers. That is. That is unmanned. And that, I mean, that road. If you thought the road you came in on was difficult, that road is.

A (22:44)

That's a. No, no, no, no, I saw it. We saw it. That, that road that Border road, you would get stuck every kilometer.

B (22:51)

Exactly. So it makes, it makes patrolling extremely difficult. And it's the same border that those cattle rusters that I'm talking about are coming across.

A (23:04)

Okay, so let's play the scenario. So the other thing that's in play here from an elephant perspective is kaza, right. There's larger 200, you know, 60,000 elephant population that's moving between Angola, Zambia, Botswana, a little bit of Namibia into Zimbabwe and These northern areas, NG14, NG13, NG11 seem to be a transient sort of corridor between. Which makes sense. Everything you just said makes sense to this argument, right? That they are moving seasonally through these areas. As it gets wet in the, as the rain falls, the interior pans fill up, the water fills up, elephants move out of the delta, they move out of other areas into these back lying areas. As it dries up, they start moving back towards other water sources. Right. So their argument is, Leon, you shouldn't be hunting those areas because these are super important dispersal corridors.

B (24:04)

Yeah. Again, Robbie, I, you know, I, I'm, I just try and keep it simple. I know, you know, I'm just a professional hunter, I'm not a scientist or anything like that. But let's go back to that point of having presence in an area, you know, road infrastructure, people's presence. And remember, this is a brand new concession. I think we've taken six exportable or trophy bulls if you want to call it in, in, in two seasons. And the rest have been been management pools.

A (24:39)

So how many, can I stop you there? How many bulls have you killed since 2022? Management, management, trophy.

B (24:47)

I think the first year was five, first year was five and the second year was five. So that's, that's a total of 10, five were hunted this year. So that's a total of 15 elephant since, you know, since the hunting opened in 2021.

A (25:07)

So 15 elephant from hunting from 2021.

B (25:13)

And, and yeah, and while we added, you know, since we started opening the roads in 2021, we haven't found a carcass, you know, a fresh, a freshly poached carcass. Yes, they are old carcasses and stuff like that, but whether they were poached or not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not 100, I'm not 100% sure. So you know, there's the aspect of presence and then the other one is pressure. So NG13 has got 5,5 elephant on quota. It's 280,000 still today.

A (25:45)

Still today, 5 elephant, that's it?

B (25:47)

Well, this year it might go up to 10. We're still waiting for the final, the final quota. Okay, actually correction. There was a quota of 10 in 20, 25, but only five were hunted. So you know, going back to that, you've got 280,000 hectares which is what probably over 600,000 acres. And yep, we can say even five elephant into that. I don't believe that that creates that kind of impact that will stop the migration. The hunting intensity is not high enough. We are probably hunting April, May, June and maybe into July. And that's not every day. And that is on elephant. At five elephant, that's 50 days of hunting, total of elephant and there's 365 days a year. So I hope that gives, puts things into perspective. It's not like we're running around 365 days a year and we're shooting 50 elephant. And then the other thing too is the carcass cleanup. And the carcass cleanup is twofold. Number one, the most important thing is the meat gets delivered to the community. We, we recover the entire elephant carcass, the entire elephant carcass where the elephant goes down, we put the whole thing on a specialized trailer and get it to the village as soon as possible. So, so that, that's, you know, that's the meat recovery side but the other side of it also, it minimizes disturbance in the area. We, we believe and you know, we come to experience if you've got elephant carcasses lying around, rotting elephant carcasses, stubble, you know, it, it, it does, it does create some disturbance I believe. But again, you know, we are not, we are not hunting in, in big herds. We're looking for single old bulls or a small group of bulls. It's not like we Charlie hoeing them off the back of a vehicle or something or in a breeding herd of 200 elephant. We, we are specific looking for all bulls past their prime. You know, which is one of the major criteria of, of, of hunting. I don't know if that answers that, Robbie.

A (28:05)

Well, I think, I think we've got to, I think you know, looking at it from the, from the alternative perspective, I think we got to understand like, I hate to couch it like this, but which devil is worse? And I'm speaking as a anti hunter, non hunter, which devil is worse? Right? Are you, you hate the idea that there's hunting in NG13 and five elephants are killed. Now the quota is 10, so potentially 10 are killed on an annual basis or not have any presence in There not know what's going on in there. And if there is this imminent threat for poaching, if poaching is something that we are very worried about, would non presence and an increased in poaching be something that is a better result then than the hunting side of things? So I get, look, I understand them, right. I understand they don't like hunting elephants, but I also understand they hate poaching of elephants. So which one here is the lesser of two evils that you're willing to swallow to say for the greater benefit of the elephant population? And also Mike Chase's report indicates that the poachers seem to be targeting the old bulls too. Yeah. Without, without a restriction on their, on their side from a quota perspective.

B (29:45)

So Robbie just explained, you know, why are we on the whole subject of 13? I think, I think the censuses that have been done between 11, NG 11, 13, 14 and maybe NG 12, I think they're 30,000 elephants and the total hunting quota is 20. If you know, if NG 13 gets 10 this year, then the total hunting quota is 20.

A (30:10)

And again NG 11 has 10 elephants.

B (30:14)

11 actually, sorry, yeah, 11 and 13 will most likely have 10. So that's 21 elephant out of 30,000 elephant. And if you look at the land mass, I don't know, you're probably looking at, I mean that thumb sucker. So we conservative thumb suck as I said, you know, 300. 300, yeah. 300 or 3,000 square kilometers. 30,000 elephant and 21 elephant are taken. And you know, I would say, yeah, 95% of those carcasses are fully recovered. But sometimes you just can't get to a carcass in time.

A (30:51)

Yeah.

B (30:53)

So, so that's just to put things into perspective. And, and, and, and again, you know, and again for me is we haven't found a carcass since 2021 and we spend you know, a lot of the time in, in way off the beaten track.

A (31:12)

Yeah, yeah. Leon, let me ask this question. I know it's not something we, we wanted to discuss, but I'm interested to get your opinion. You're a professional hunter, you like to hunt elephants. You have elephants. What are your thoughts to potentially having a class of elephants to be hunted in Botswana that is not a trophy class elephant? There's 30,000 elephants in NG13. Okay. Or NG11, NG13. There has to be bulls in that population that are of the 30 pound, 35 year old age class that will never get to trophy status. That would, that would fit essentially a Mike Chase model which is, hey you guys are doing harm to the population. Is this a cadre of elephants there that I think people would love to elephant hunt? You'd still generate the revenues for the communities, you'd still generate the meat for the communities, but also at the same time be able to address maybe some of these scientific concerns that Mike has. So.

B (32:14)

You know, as, as, as the, the association we have and professional hunters and outfitters, we have put the proposal to government and government are considering it. We, you know, we, we speak about.

A (32:30)

And what is that proposal? What is that proposal?

B (32:33)

That proposal is an export quota and then a non trophy. A non trophy, non export quota or it could be exported but you know, it is, it is below sort of trophy standard, so to speak. So it would be a management.

A (32:47)

And that's what you guys would go, you would, you would specifically keep the non exportable elephants into that?

B (32:54)

Yes.

A (32:54)

So sort of a figure out some sort of protocol in which that class of elephants get highlighted or taken the category.

B (33:01)

And I think the proposal was 50, 50 split. So if it was NG13, you know, be 5 trophy bulls and 5 management, 5 management pools or 6 trophy bulls and 4 management pools versus versus. Versus 10 versus 10 trophy balls. So that, that's a proposal that, that's, that's on the cards. It does, does, it does need, I don't know what do you call does need administrative decisions in that if it's non, non trophy or non exportable then the license fee needs to also come down and reflect that to make it, to make it more.

A (33:44)

No, I think a whole structure, a whole protocol needs to be built around and a protocol needs to be built.

B (33:49)

Around a finance besides the criteria of a management pool. You know, from, from legislation side of things, the licensing side of things. There needs to be movement on that end. And then Robbie, again, this is the, the, the misconception I like to clear up is that what we do is, is, is controlled hunting and they call it trophy hunting, et cetera. And it was never envisaged as a population management tool. It was a socioeconomic, you know, socioeconomic tool and.

A (34:21)

Right.

B (34:21)

This is.

A (34:22)

Right, absolutely.

B (34:23)

You know, and we don't want to confuse or we don't want to mix socioeconomic and population management. It doesn't work. You know, and again if we look at those 30,000 elephant and we hunt 21 elephant, whether they trophy or non trophy, it's going to do nothing to the population, let's be honest. You know, and then the other thing is that a place like NG13 is you, you wouldn't want to do too much management or too many elephant because then you would, you might be pushing those elephant back to where the people are and then you have them in NG, you know, in NG 11. So rather maybe increase the management quota in places in high conflict areas. But in, in no ways is the management hunting or the trophy hunting going to have an effect on the, on the overall population. I don't know what you think about that.

A (35:17)

Yeah, yeah.

B (35:18)

You look at 160,000.

A (35:19)

No, no, I totally agree, Totally agree. Hunting in Botswana is not a population management tool. The, the population is very large. The percentage is like 0.0.2% right now, actually. 0.0.15%. If you look, if you get the data, the offtake right now to the population is around the.015% level of the population. No, you're absolutely right. And look, and I think again, it comes down to this whole idea of banning hunting. It all comes down to, especially in these marginal areas, and this is a marginal area proven over and over again that nobody wants it. Ecotourism has not shown a single lack of interest is what's the lesser of two evils here. You know, an area that is completely open, abandoned, with no presence that allows for poachers to come in and out and poaching occurs at whatever levels. We don't know, hopefully less than, than high versus a hunter operator in there doing the work that he needs to do. Opening roads, generating socioeconomic benefits to the community, which we're about to get to, and establishing a presence that's deterring poachers and reducing that load on the elephant population, as Chase's report indicates. Leon, just to switch, so to switch gears, obviously there is a trust. There's a trust set up. Check your community trust is set up. It's been set up for a long time. It's what represents the communities. What, which, which community does it represent? Kwa. What else?

B (36:58)

The two, two major villages and what they call a cattle grazing syndicate. So I would say Tobare is the biggest village, about a thousand. And then Kaputura is close to 500. Yeah. And then many people, maybe 50 people. So you're looking at just under 2,000, 2,000 people that make up, make up the trust.

A (37:22)

So, and so I don't want to get into the backstory of. Because I think we were still, we were having tech checker trust issues already in like 2023. Right. Chairpersons running away with money, all sorts of things. Right. I don't know if you want to get into that or Not.

B (37:39)

Robbie, I. Before we get, we get going there, I just also want to, you know, bring things into perspective and that people think that, you know, we are trophy hunting or hunting all the big bulls throughout Botswana. I mean, you, you know, the map of Botswana, you look at the old. Of the Okavango, the Chobe and stuff like that, and there are a lot of. A lot of areas that there is no hunting, you know, absolutely no hunting. So that's just something that I, I just wanted to put things into perspective, you know. Yeah, I mean, we on the fringes in that, in that upper area now. Coming. Yeah. Coming back to NG13. I don't really want to get all into the politics. You know, we really, we really need to move on. One thing we need to understand is that, that it's a new trust. All these other trusts, Mubabi and places like that, they were established almost 30 years ago. So what Jack was going through now is par for the course, because community members are now starting to understand what it's all about. It's been disrupted by what's gone on, and we'll probably discuss that as we go forward, but it's pretty much par for the course. Let's be honest. Let's not be too hard on them. If we think back 30 years above and those places went through the same.

A (38:58)

Yeah, look, and I think the finger, unfortunately gets pointed at these community trusts all the time, right, that you're not doing a great job, you're not doing what you need to do. But you've got to remember they have. They don't have the benefit of. I'll couch this the best way I can, they don't have the. They don't have the benefit of an economic framework, of an education behind them to say, this is how we're going to run the trust, this is how we're going to run our economics, this is how we're going to invest money, this is how we're going to distribute money out to our community members. And there's also always the influence of somebody saying, hey, I'll help you out a little bit over here if you'll help me out a little bit over here. Which is an influence that happens everywhere.

B (39:42)

Exactly, Robbie. And again, you know, with the moratorium, a lot of, you know, the civil, senior civil servants and stuff, that understood hunting and understood the trusts, they know they're no longer there. So we almost, from the hunting standpoint, we almost had to start from scratch as the industry and as communities. So that's something that's that's overlooked. Yeah.

A (40:10)

So, Leon, you. You were the tenant. You were the operator of NG13s. And I say were purposefully. Okay, you say you still are in 2025. Something happened. You. You were essentially removed from NG13, right?

B (40:26)

Yeah. Robbie, this is stuff I might want to put on here, but I will. I will try to. I will try to give you the. Give you the. The picture. So again, we got into a dispute with. With a trust and a trust, an unconstitutional trust of where community funds actually go and that, you know, it's a requirement of the Trust and Property act of Botswana and the Department of Wildlife and National Parks to every year.

A (41:03)

So, Leon, you have proof that you were paying money into the trust.

B (41:08)

You will not get a hunting license. The wildlife Department will not release hunting licenses unless you have paid according to your agreement with it, with the trust. Okay. Okay. So, you know, so, so that's number one. But, Robbie, I think people need to. I was going through some figures because of that other article, and I'm trying to. I'm sketching around now, but people need to understand that I started with Czecho Trust at the end of 2018, working with them. The ban was lifted in 2021. We only started hunting in 2022. So, you know, the public needs to. And journalists, actually, I don't think they appreciate from 20. So there's 2019, 2020, 2021, and 2022 is where we started generating revenue. So that's three years without revenue. Okay. And one of those years, we paid for a full quota of four elephants and we didn't hunt them, you know, and, and it was part of our. I don't. I don't know if you want to call. Was a gesture of goodwill, et cetera, et cetera.

A (42:17)

Yeah, it was. You being the operator that everyone. You need to develop a relationship. You need to develop trust. You need to develop. This is who we are. These are the promises that we are putting online, and these are the ones that we're fulfilling. So you had to do all of that work. And it happens everywhere like that. That's how business operates, operate.

B (42:37)

So, you know, and we'll get into the figures later, but there was almost 2 million pooler with that quota and setting up the trust and getting them going to the point where they got their first quota. So these are things that, that, that, that I ignored. And I don't, I don't want to get ahead of myself because we want to address that. You know, that other article from. From Africa Geographic. But yeah, let's let's go Back to, to 2024 is actually where this dispute started. So these board members, they, they decided that I'm encroaching too much into their pie type of thing. And, and again, you know, Robbie, we, our, our partners are the community, not, not our actual partners are the villages. And you know, it's unprincipled to, you know, it's against our principle to go. It would be easy to pay guys off and, and continue operating, but, but we refused. So the way they tried to get us out was doubling, doubling the fees. And we have an agreement that has.

A (43:50)

Been shared doubling the trophy fees that is assigned to the community on your.

B (43:56)

Quota as a way of forcing us out. Because the community, they never took this via the community, who are actually the decision makers according to the constitution of the trust, they, the beneficiaries.

A (44:10)

So they didn't, they didn't undertake, like we said in the beginning, they didn't undertake the kotler of saying, okay, here's the contract. The contract has X trophy fee specified. We want to double that trophy fee. Coming back to the community. Does everybody agree?

B (44:25)

You know, they, they try to terminate our agreement, which is against the laws of Botswana the way they tried to do it. And of course they, they didn't involve, they didn't involve the, the community at all. So, so what, what ensued? There is an, Our agreement said it, if we disagree on something, we have to go to arbitration. And they flat out refused to go to arbitration. So the next step was to go to court. And we went to court and we lost. We lost the court case in, in, in 2023. No, 2024. And. But our agreement wasn't terminated. It, it, it wasn't terminated.

A (45:10)

What did you lose the court case about?

B (45:12)

There have been so many. Let me just think about it. Oh, yeah, they didn't want to extend the, the interdict that we had. The, the interdict. And that was, I mean, towards the end of the season when that, when that came out, but our agreement was, was never, was never terminated. Okay. And yeah, we didn't get an order to go to, to arbitration according to the agreement. So we, we went to the Court of Appeal, which is the highest court in Botswana, and we won that case in August of this year. On the 15th of August this year where the court.

A (45:51)

So when, when you were going into this year before the Court of Appeals Arbitrator in August, the beginning of 2025, you were still the operator of PG13.

B (46:00)

Yes.

A (46:02)

And you went and you were, you were going to hunt but the community. Not the community.

B (46:07)

Let me. The. The.

A (46:08)

The. The. The trust.

B (46:09)

Yeah.

A (46:10)

Was of the opinion that you were not the operator.

B (46:15)

Yeah, they, they, they. And that's where. That's where Darvi Grunefeld entered the picture. And, you know, obviously they told him that there's no agreement, et cetera, et cetera, and they signed an agreement. Again, no consultation of the community. According to the community members. They signed it in the Bush. They didn't sign it in the Kotler, and they didn't know who. Who. Who Darvie was. And then, you know, with a South African. With a South African company, basically a shelf company. And then when they realized that, no, this is becoming contentious, all the shares were transferred to the former. To the former minister. And I mean, that's. That's. That's pretty well. Pretty well documented. But we did have a court order in place up until. Yeah, we did have a court order in place that our. Our rights could not be infringed. Infringed upon. So we could. We could hunt.

A (47:16)

Okay.

B (47:18)

So anyway, long. You know, long story. Long story short, Robbie, there was a lot of back and forth, but the appeal court has recognized our agreement and has interdicted the hunting until we have gone to arbitration on the pricing. Okay. And just to give you an idea of this board of trustees, their term expired in June. The community has been trying since September 2022 to remove them after an audit. The community's been trying to remove them. In March of this year, they had what they called a special general meeting. I think it was the seventh notice for this meeting. The community took a decision to remove those trustees. The master of the high court did remove them. And then, you know, they challenged it. The old board challenged it, and they won somehow. They won on, you know, minor technicalities. But long story short, that same board of trustees term expired in June. The only way the community got them out was through a court order. A court order to hold a special general meeting. And they finally had that meeting on the 4th of September, 2025, and a new board of trustees was voted in. So, yeah, it's a long and convoluted thing, but our agreement stands. There's now a new board of trustees. There's no unnewed board of trustees in place.

A (48:57)

And so where does Darby Grunewald's agreement?

B (48:59)

So, because we have an existing agreement, you know, his agreement is invalid, but you cannot have one agreement on top of another. And then the other thing is, they. They operated with a Botswana. It's not a. It was Actually not a registered name, a registered company. It was a trading name.

A (49:20)

And.

B (49:22)

You know, I don't think they were very sincere with government because they told them that it didn't registered and stuff and it was a trading name. And when the appeal court ruling came out a little after that, they challenged it and won it, but they were not sincere to the court. And the court subsequently set aside that, that, that court order allowing them, allowing them to hunt. And so where we are now, what does that mean?

A (49:48)

What does that mean? The court set aside the court order.

B (49:51)

Because the appeal court really came out in August. DK Superior Botswana, supposedly a registered entity, which it's not. That came out in court. They challenged the Director of wildlife because he stopped the hunting because of the appeal court ruling. See, I'm, I'm, I'm not a lawyer. And then they won it. And so we then challenged that and say why were we not joined because of the appeal court ruling and why was the community not joined? Because they are the, they are the stakeholder, they own the concession. So we challenged that court order and it got set aside. So hunting was interdicted again. And then the judge said, again, legal stuff. The judge said, we have to go back to the original case, their application, but join the company, our company and the community. And so we went back to court and they withdrew. Darvi and, and, and the former minister Ronald Shamukuri, they, they, they withdrew with costs because they didn't have a leg to stand on. They didn't have an agreement.

A (50:56)

So Today we're talking January 2026. Where, where does everything stand right now?

B (51:05)

Where, where we stand now is that we've got the appeal court ruling, we're putting in an application to go to do arbitration on, on, on the pricing as far as the community.

A (51:18)

So the new, the new committee, the new committee wants to discuss increasing.

B (51:23)

Yes, well, yeah, we have to, we have to finalize an agreement based on fair market value. And like I said, when going, going back to our agreement, the arbitrator is going to determine that, you know, that, that leaves us out of the picture and saying that, you know, we abusing the communities or we ripping them off, et cetera, et cetera. It's going to be, It's.

A (51:44)

Even though that, even though that agreement and that arbitration was with the old.

B (51:48)

So we haven't been, we haven't been to arbitration yet. The, what that court order has done is recognized our agreement interdicted the hunting until we go to arbitration and then the arbitrator is going to set a Price and the community's got to be happy with it and we got to pay it whether we like it or not. If it's too much, then, you know, it's not viable, then we out. So it's being done by a neutral third party. So, so that's, and that, and that.

A (52:14)

Agreement is that are we, I'm assuming there's a tenure to this agreement. Right. So is this going to start year one of a, of a five year agreement or ten year agreement or is this arbitration of year three of a five year agreement?

B (52:30)

This is a, this I would say is a continuation of our agreement. So. Okay, yeah, it's, it's a continuation. Where we are, is on the price. That's where, that's where the hiccup is and that's what we had the disagreement about in early 2024. And that's what the arbitration process is about. It's not about the actual agreement, it's about the price, you know, and that also been in the league.

A (52:59)

And so is the arbitration process have a date in place.

B (53:05)

Like I say, I think the application's been submitted this week. Yeah, and then, and then, and then we'll know. But I don't think it's going to be too lengthy of a process because you know, all the prices and who's paying what is all on all on record.

A (53:25)

So there's really two options at this point in the game. Well, let's just to clarify to make sure everyone's following at this point in the game, the other operator, Darby Crone Vault and the previous minister, they are out of the picture. They do not have an agreement currently. They don't have with NG13 or the Chuku Trust check.

B (53:47)

Right? They don't, they don't have a legal, they don't have a legal agreement. All their documents, all the documents from the director, everything has been subpoenaed by the judge and there is no existing agreement, valid or existing.

A (54:04)

Your agreement, your agreement with Czecu Trust is now going to arbitration to determine with two possible outcomes. One, a price gets settled on by the arbitrator and is presented to you and you say yes, I can accept that, correct or no, that is too much, I can't. That's not going to make us viable at all. Can't make ends meet and we're going to walk away. And let's assume number two happens, what then? Does the community then put out a tender for a new operator?

B (54:46)

Robbie, I think the community has got three legal options. They can either do a direct appointment they can do a tender or they can do an auction.

A (54:58)

Okay. Okay. And you would assume in that scenario the arbitrated number that was presented to you would be the number that they use in that process.

B (55:11)

Sorry, Robbie. The arbitrator's number.

A (55:16)

Yeah, the arbitrated number. That is like, this is the, this is the. And we're making assumptions here, right? We're making assumptions that the number you walked away from, you're like, that's too much viability wise. I can't accept it. In the, in the, in the three legal processes you just described directly, tender, auction, would that arbitrator's price be in that or they decided to, you know, it.

B (55:41)

I think it would be up to the community to, to set a reserve and, and maybe start from scratch, you know, and that's opening up a whole can of worms robbing. Because you know, our agreement, it talks about, you know, if we're going to terminate before our term comes up, the things like infrastructure development, the setting up of the trust, you know, all those costs have got to come back to us. I mean, that's business. If I, you know, if I go to the bank, I buy a brand new Land Cruiser and I borrow $100,000 and I pay back 20, I don't get to keep the Land Cruiser, I have to give it back to the bank. And, and that's assignment.

A (56:24)

So this is all spelled out in a contract, right? It's all spelled out in the agreement. In a contract.

B (56:28)

We have to have our basis covered. It's a business agreement. The end of the day.

A (56:35)

Even though you, in an arbitration, you're the one stepping away, is there not a clause there that says if we decide to step away on our own free will, those things don't, like, you don't get.

B (56:46)

You don't get in our own free will. But then, you know, this is why I'm not looking at option two. Because it's going to be fair. Because our agreement talks about fair market value. And you know, we have, we have all the, you know, we have what everybody else is paying and being paid to government, etc. So, you know, I'm, I'm going to be in line.

A (57:11)

It should be in line with everybody else.

B (57:13)

And I'm happy about it because I'm tired of getting the finger pointed at me. You know, nobody, nobody, nobody takes into account, you know, what we have done and what we've done in, in, in the interim. Well, there's been no hunting for the communities. We still continued helping with our social corporate responsibilities. Funerals, etc. Etc. We haven't stopped any of that. And then we've supported the community legally to get to the point where they are, they are at now where they can finally get their own board of trustees and it's going to represent them and not their own personal interests. Because I mean that's essentially what we've also been fighting for. And that's what, what started the, the disagreement is that the money, very little of it has been filtering down to the communities. And again, like I said, it's, it's a teething process. It's, it's part of the process.

A (58:09)

Yeah, yeah. And that is the challenge, right? That is the challenge. And, and people point that, that I would say the majority of finger pointing that comes from, is leveled at hunting exists at that juncture. Right. Who's auditing the communities to make sure that they're doing what they're doing, making sure that there's no corruption, making sure that people aren't back pocketing money, that the actual benefits are being realized to the people on the ground.

B (58:37)

And this takes time because the people holding the trustees to account are the villagers, are the beneficiaries. And this is a, this is a completely new concept to them. They don't know, a lot of them don't know. They're only now starting to understand with the legal battles and the back and forth, they're now understanding their role, you know, the role of the trust and that that money actually belongs to them and that they should be the beneficiaries of that kind. And, and this is a problem.

A (59:07)

They've never had them before, like you said. I think that's a key point. They've never had it before. They've never had somebody come in and go, we're going to give you 2 billion puller a year. They're like what exactly? For those, those, those big, for those big elephants, okay, cool, give us 2 million. But then you, you can totally understand the problem, right? You can totally understand this. Like, you know, it's in an innate human character when there's a lot of money now available to a trust that had or to people that hand nothing that corruption's involved and stealing and theft and all these kinds of things come in. It's just a natural part of human society. It has nothing to do with hunting is, you know, who you are or what does.

B (59:48)

And, and you know, they point fingers at the hunting industry. The same thing happens in the photographic. There is NG32 outside of Mount. I mean they've been in court for two years too. And it's the same thing. The people are asking, where is all their money? And they are not being proper audits and stuff. So what government has done and why the new government has done it is to bring in the new cbnr, which.

A (60:16)

Is going to give, well, it's also support. Right. We talk about support. These guys that have never thought about financial instruments, think about investments, think about their kids and their grandkids, they're not thinking that way. How can they get support and help to really uplift their communities? You can't, you can't rely on them to do it. They need help.

B (60:38)

No, no, they do. So, you know, we've welcomed the, we've welcomed the, the, the new act and it's going to give government a bit more authority on, on, on, on the funds and the accountability of these funds. Like I say again, you know, hunting gets a bad rap, but it's happening in, in photographic communities too.

A (61:03)

Yeah, perfect. Well, Leon, you know, all, essentially we're in a wait and see kind of scenario of what happens in NG13. But I think again, I wanted to have this podcast with you.

B (61:15)

Appreciate it.

A (61:16)

Because a lot of people see things happening in NGO 13. It is a, it is a hot spot of discussion online around the whole hunting issue, the banning of hunting. Should we be hunting? There's a lot of players that talk a lot about NG13. And then you roll into the teething problems that the Trust has had. You know, money going to where, to what community, doing what, benefiting who? This, this other character coming in from South Africa, his involvement. It's, it's just a boiling, it's a boiling pot. So that's why I wanted to have you on. So I appreciate you being here, man. I appreciate the honesty and the openness that allows us to, to have these kinds of conversations.

B (62:05)

Yeah, I also, again, like I say, appreciate the platform and at least there's somewhere that, you know, this is open to the, to the public to watch. Just another question. I can't. Yeah, I can't believe we've been going for 56 minutes already, but I just feel like I've warmed up. I don't know if you want to get into the Africa Geographic article at all a little bit with just a couple.

A (62:30)

You always tend to do this with me. You're like, I get to the end. No, no, no, hold on, hold on. I want to talk about something else.

B (62:37)

You get 55 minutes. I've been edit this 365 days a year. Times five.

A (62:44)

I think we addressed, I think we addressed what's in an Africa Geographic article because that Africa Geographic that was tied to the CASA survey, It's part of the CASA survey.

B (62:55)

But I want to look at, I just want to go through the figures. Just quickly, just really briefly.

A (63:02)

Yeah, okay. Go through the figures. Show the figures.

B (63:04)

Robby. If you look at the revenue, let's just take the figures as they are. It says total revenue here, US$445,000. They haven't taken into account 14% VAT haven't taken into account a minimum of 15% agents commissions. So you're already at 30%. So you now you're down to, so now you're down to $315,000. Then he says, I don't know who wrote the article. It's. Anyway, it doesn't matter really. Now we had $315,000 which is more than 100,000 less than he says is our gross. And then he's got the direct costs which are not right. It's more like 125 or 130 to the community.

A (63:57)

What did he have as direct cost?

B (63:59)

100,000. He's using the wrong exchange rate and you know, maybe the original fee we paid, so we had about 130. The government license fees are correct. Again, the exchange rate is, is not right. So we on, on what is the total costs. We gone from 133 to 167. Okay, so now, so now I, I don't know, I lost my piece of paper but I worked out. He's saying that we got an annual gross profit. But what about setting up the trust? That's $200,000 almost building the hunting camp, it's $250,000. Infrastructure development, that's roads, boreholes, that's another $220,000. What about the daily running costs on safari? Forget maintenance and all that kind of stuff. So you know, this unfortunately is very misleading, very misleading because he says there's no infrastructure and then he says, you know, you charge extra. And this is, this is what I'm walking around with. I'm making 1.6 million fuller over a five year period. But doesn't take into account all of any of those. And again NG13 is probably the most expensive concession to operate by 20% just because of where it is. There was absolutely no infrastructure. No camp nearby that you could rent or anything. There weren't any roads. So all that's got to be brought in. You know, diesel's got to, takes a day to get the diesel into camp, two days there and back. Whereas.

A (65:38)

Oh, I remember, I remember a backhoe was broken or something like that and it took us two and a half days to even get.

B (65:44)

Yeah, exactly. And so that, that, that will, that machine will sit for three weeks before it's running again. Getting fuel in etc rations, getting staff in, vehicle breakdowns. I mean I've been through two vehicles and a truck that had just given up in that sand. So all of these things and I just wish these kind of things were more balanced and they're not because these guys are against hunting again. And it seemed.

A (66:13)

Yeah, I know, of course. Look, what did we expect with from Africa Geographic and Simon, right? It would have been amazing. Imagine if Simon had said, Leon, let's do one of these and I'll bring my numbers. Exactly, you bring your numbers and let's.

B (66:29)

Discuss and let's see where we are. So again, going back to your point, who's worse, you know, is it to have a controlled quota offtake or is it just to leave it wide open and then it contradicts again, it contradicts the research that unoccupied areas are the areas that get hammered. Sorry Wobby, I've filled your ears enough now for the next six months.

A (66:55)

No, no, no, that's fine.

B (66:56)

I just wanted to go through that, you know, the figures.

A (67:01)

Yeah, yeah, look, I think that there's, there's always justification. You are the hotspot, right. And that's where the, the fingers are being pointed. And Africa Geographic has had a love affair with NG13 since 2022 and it's not going away anytime soon, so it's not going away anytime soon. So you know, when everything gets squared away, here's what we should do. When arbitration occurs and the trust is squared away, you should come back on here and let's go through, let's go, let's do. If you're whippy willing, do a whole financial like. Okay, this is what just happened. Here are the numbers, here's the distribution, here's what's in the contract and here's what it's going to cost me this year to do this. Here's the government fees and we lay it all out financially and maybe next time you can write it all out and have the piece of paper in front of you.

B (68:03)

Thank you very much. I did, I went through the effort of doing it but, but you know, again, Robbie, just, just a quick one. Again the we fought this thing. It's come down to moral, you know, would Darvie, everybody knowing Darvi, he doesn't have the community's best interest at heart and would he be concerned about these things? So, you know, again, do they want Darvi in or do they want us in or do they don't want anybody in? Yeah, you know, that's just. They want someone else or someone else.

A (68:40)

Yeah, yeah.

B (68:42)

So there we go.

A (68:43)

All right, Leon. Well, I appreciate you. I appreciate your honesty, appreciate your willingness to come out on this. I know it's not a tough, it's not an easy subject to talk about but I think it's important to have a. Have your voice put out there so that people can hear directly from you and make their own opinions.

B (69:02)

I appreciate it Robbie, thank you very much and look forward to seeing you in the next few weeks in person.

A (69:08)

Yes, sir.

B (69:08)

Cheers, buddy. Thanks.

A (69:10)

Well, that's it for today. Appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hun.