← The Origins Foundation Podcast
The Origins Foundation Podcast
Episode 632 - Paul Hubbard || Frederick Courtney Selous Part 1
01:31:20
Most of everyone has heard of Theodore Roosevelt, some of you may have heard of Frederick Courtney Selous. But did you know that they were really good friends? Did you know how they became friends? Do you know how they both shaped conservation? In this first of a two part podcast, returning guest Paul Hubbard, our favorite historian and archaeologist and “doer of great things”, talks about the famous hunter Frederick Courtney Selous. This is a MUST listen to podcast, as is Part II.
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- [00:00]
Robbie
Planning a fishing trip shouldn't feel like a full time job. With fishingbooker.com you can find and book the perfect fishing trip within minutes. FishingBooker.com connects you with trusted fishing captains around the world. Booking is fast, easy and secure with access to verified customer reviews, loyalty rewards and around the clock customer support. Everything you need to book with confidence is in one place. So head to fishingbooker.com and start planning your next fishing fishing adventure today. Frederick Courtney Salou. You may know the name, you may have seen it on boots, on parks, on super elite ranges. It's a famous name out of African hunting. Paul Hubbard is a repeat guess. He's a historian, archaeologist, A doer of all great things is what I like to refer Paul as. Paul has a repertoire of knowledge that is second to none, specifically around things pertaining to Africa, conservation, wildlife and hunting. He approached me with this idea like, can we talk about these famous hunters in Africa? And let's start with Salou. I said absolutely, let's do it. So this is part one of a two part series on Frederick Courtney Salou. We plan to do many, many other African hunters this year. And so just sit back, enjoy, learn and understand this just amazing individual and all the individuals that come around him, after him, before him, through this series with Paul. So enjoy. So five years ago there was a reason why I started this movement. And the truth then is the truth now that we need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around what we do and who we are. There's a sweet spot where they got, you know, too heavy and it's a
- [01:50]
Paul Hubbard
burden to walk with. Too light and you whipping it.
- [01:54]
Robbie
Why is the project so important to the hunting community?
- [01:57]
Paul Hubbard
It's, it's a. I think it's not only important, I think it's, I think it's vital. I think it's, it's just in time. It's like snakes and ladders. You guys are climbing the ladder and then somebody does something stupid and you just slide down.
- [02:09]
Robbie
That is such an amazing analogy. Snakes and ladders.
- [02:13]
Paul Hubbard
Yeah. You know, ivory in my opinion was the plastic of its age. Okay. The expenses were going up. It goes a long way with families. We have families that do need it.
- [02:23]
Robbie
Let me close this door because I have a little wiener dog. What are you laughing? Because I said wiener.
- [02:29]
Paul Hubbard
I'm really glad you finished the sentence out. I'm sorry the first happened. What are we doing here today?
- [02:48]
Robbie
I don't think I'm ever shocked at the status. I say this all the time. I'M jealous of your library, but I don't think I would be shocked at the status that is your desk. Dare I say a desk. How much. How much square footage on that desk do you actually have to work on?
- [03:04]
Paul Hubbard
12 inches by 12 inches? I was gonna say it's a bit more generous. 16 inches square, I think.
- [03:10]
Robbie
16 inches square enough for a computer and a notepad and everything else. There's like your classic professor scenario all around you, right? All these books standing head high around you in your little cave within a cave.
- [03:25]
Paul Hubbard
Yes, it is. And you can't even see the floor at the moment because I'm in the midst of writing another article. So there's piles of printouts and books by subject all over the place as well.
- [03:36]
Robbie
So do I have to, like, get in the queue of you writing an article like, the elephant ivory treaties? Like, where are we in the queue? I remember we had this conversation last time. We're on this podcast. Are we, like, getting close to the top at this point?
- [03:51]
Paul Hubbard
We're on up. You're third in the queue. I'm just finishing up an article for my first archaeology professor. They're doing a Fetchkift, a volume in honor of him, so I'm writing about rock art for him. And then I was under a deadline for another article on Alan Wilson and his men because I found some new bits and pieces that I want to write about for a journal. So we're reviewing the War of 1893, which has been really fun. And of course, our man today fits into that story, which is why I suggested it as a topic for you today as well, because that's also distracted me from elephants and ivory in terms of who was collecting it at that time instead. And it's been a joy reading, getting some statistics. So it's. It's in progress, you know, for those
- [04:42]
Robbie
you are a frequent visitor now on the Blood on the Origins foundation podcast, I keep wanting to say, you know, everyone's going to remember it as Blood Origins, but the Origins foundation podcast, for those of you that have not caught any of Paul Hubbard's previous conversations, they're all tied to ivory trade, which has been quite fascinating. But, Paul, for those of you that are listening to this for the very first time, that are being introduced to you for the very first time, whether by simple, by voice or by YouTube on video, you want to introduce yourself.
- [05:15]
Paul Hubbard
Sure. Thank you, Robbie. Thanks for having me on again, by the way. It's always fun. Yeah. I'm Paul Hubbard. I work as an archaeologist and a historian in Zimbabwe and for, for part of the year, then of the year working as a professional guide specializing in those two topics all around the country. So it's an enormous privilege and I have a great deal of fun with it because it beats working for a living, you know. And yeah, you know, the, the one of my great fun things that's been happening in the last couple of years is doing more and more research into the history of hunting and its impact within southern and central Africa before the modern era, you know, and I've accumulated a lot more books and been doing reading, which of course leads to questions and conversations that I've also been enjoying having in no large, in no small part, sorry. Because of you, Robbie, and listening to many of your other podcasts on hunting in the modern world and seeing many themes and similarities between then and now, and also possible solutions to some of the pressing questions. So it's good fun.
- [06:28]
Robbie
Yeah, I always, I say to, to you all the time, I think you've got your work life balance, like, figured out better than most people in that you decided like, okay, I'm going to work for six months of the year and then the other six months of the year I'm actually, I am working, but I'm actually just going to read and I'm just going to read and write articles and do the things that I love to do, which bolsters your work in the guiding side of things. So kudos. It is 2026, and my friends, big changes have happened in the world of firearm suppressors. The $200 tax stamp fee is now gone. Huge win for hunters, huge win for shooters, and a huge win for your wallets. If you're thinking about elevating your shooting experience and adding a suppressor, Silence Essential is the best way to to shop. And you don't even have to get off your couch to do it. Go to silenceessential.com, browse hundreds of suppressor options. They literally have all of the popular makes and models. Then their experts will walk you through setting up your account, creating a free NFA trust, and then submitting your application to the atf. Once approved, Silence Essential ships your new suppressor directly to your door. That's when you're going to have to essentially get off the couch. It's a game changer, guys. You haven't done it yet. Do it. The old days of waiting eight to 10 months on a suppressor are gone. It's more like two weeks. Some have even gotten their suppressors in shorter timeframes. It's Never been easier to start shooting suppressed. Get started today by visiting silencer central.com it's really the simplest way to get your suppressors. Bushnell is eager to help you get set up for conservation success. That's right. They want to help you. The conservation and research community is dominated by good people doing good things and investing significant time and effort for the benefit of habitat and the species. So what do you need to do? Pretty simple. Send us your conservation story and. Or your conservation wish could be managing whitetails. It could be understanding your environment or species or something else related to conservation. What would you be able to do if you had a great trail camera setup? We will select the best story every other month and send you a camera bundle. Cell camera, normal SD camera, SD cards as well as optics. Everything you need to get set up for success. I can't wait to see what you submit. You can email us, DM us, message us, whatever you want. We are not hard to find. Good luck.
- [09:02]
Paul Hubbard
Yeah, no, well, thank you. I'm very blessed in that I've been able to. I still haven't worked a day in my life, you know, even calling guiding work. I often joke with people. There's a lot going on but my heavens, what a privilege. You know, I won't demean it by calling it work, you know, but yeah, it's, it's, it's an enormous privilege and fun to, to do what I do at the moment and I never forget how blessed I am. It's. And long may it continue if I can be so cocky.
- [09:31]
Robbie
I'm sure it will, I'm sure it will. So one of the things we wanted to. I think we're going to get a lot of people listening to this, this episode specifically because you came to me with an idea which is like, hey Robbie, there's these, all these super famous hunters from, from Africa that, you know, their names are synonymous with lots of different things. Historical figures, well known figures, but nobody really, I don't think, you know, I might have.
- [10:07]
Paul Hubbard
I've done a little bit of research
- [10:08]
Robbie
into the podcast space. I don't think anybody has sort of decided to tackle like here, let's talk about this guy. Let's talk about this guy.
- [10:16]
Paul Hubbard
Let's talk about this guy.
- [10:17]
Robbie
The old God of, of hunting really in, in southern Africa. Have you come across anything?
- [10:26]
Paul Hubbard
Well, you know, there's, there's been some academic treatments, you know, in various books which are incredibly expensive and difficult to find. And then of course, because of my interest in the topic, I've been Collecting a huge amount of what I regard as the seminal texts on the history of hunting in Africa. But those are the one, we call them primary sources, which are written by the men and in very rare instances, women on the ground, hunting and traveling, exploring and interacting with wildlife here down in southern and central Africa. You know, there's been quite a few books looking at hunters as agents of colonialism. You know, like by the exploring they did, by the peoples they met, and like some, like the topic of our talk today, Salou, who actually took an active part in the imperial process. But nobody's really gone in depth on a lot of their impact as hunters, on both the local economy, on the wildlife populations, also on scientific discoveries that many of them helped see through, through their various activities. Even if they weren't the ones, you know, publishing the papers themselves, they. They had a sustained impact on that sort of stuff. So this has sort of been a bit of a passion project for, for a while now. Although I'm nowhere near ready to write up everything, because every time I think I've found something out, I learn there's another 20 branches of information that I want to get into. And, you know, there's, there's. I've heard, I've listened to a couple of podcasts on particular characters as well, you know, because I'm always interested in how other people approach the topics I'm interested in. And. Yeah, but I think what we had chatted about is trying to make this, you know, a regular occurring series looking at individuals and then also trying to offer some of the bigger picture stuff on their, their life and achievements, such as they may be. And also trying to put it in context because I think even in the modern world today, you know, there's this idea that, you know, hunting is slaughter, which there are instances where that was the case, but it is not the, the entire story, and neither is it often the truth. And so, you know, it's to also give a bit of nuance and appreciation to those sort of conversations that happened even at the time of a lot of these people, you know, from the 1820s all the way through until the end of the Victorian era In the early 1900s, you know, which is the main, the main time of interest to me. But I certainly feel that, you know, we, we could have some fun looking at a lot of these legends. You know, today, of course, we, we want to talk about Frederick Courtenay Salou. And then the next guy I want to do is the man who wrote this book here, which is William Charles Baldwin, who is one of the most influential of the early, I suppose, you know, the, the early European hunters operating in southern Africa. His book is. Has a seismic effect. But that. That can be a part.
- [13:33]
Robbie
Oh, for sure. I look forward to it. I honestly, you know, everybody probably in the hunting circles have, has heard of Frederick, you know, Courtney Salou, but Baldwin.
- [13:46]
Paul Hubbard
Well, just, you know, as a, as a fun thing reading this book. This is a reprint because I don't know where I've put my original of it. It's somewhere.
- [13:53]
Robbie
Oh, it's a. Yeah, I would be. I'm shocked. I'm shocked that you don't know where the original is.
- [13:59]
Paul Hubbard
That's somewhere here. It's there. But the thing is this book together with this one, which is David Livingston's. This is the first edition of David Livingston's book Missionary Travels and researchers reading those two is what got our man today, Frederick Courtney Salou, interested in Africa and as a place to visit.
- [14:24]
Robbie
Those two guys came before Courtney Salou. Yes, let's call him Salut today.
- [14:30]
Paul Hubbard
Reading those two. These two books when he was a young man are the two seminal texts. He actually mentions them several times. Does Frederick Courtenay Salou in his own published books, but also in his letters, many of which we have here in the Zimbabwean National Archives. Over the years, he keeps mentioning the two of them, especially Baldwin's book. Which is why I think Baldwin needs to be our next. Our next topic of interest for his influence. Because it wasn't just Salou that he influences in Europe when he writes about all of his adventures in the southern half of Africa, but he impacts a whole generation of hunters in Europe and America to come out to the continent both to hunt, to make a living here, to live here and all the rest of it. So it's quite important, you know, for today, I think, you know.
- [15:25]
Robbie
So Salou wrote, read these books in England, I'm assuming.
- [15:29]
Paul Hubbard
Yes, yes. You know, so Salou, you know, he's born on the last day of 1851. His birthday is the 31st of December, 1851. And he's born in Regent's park in London where he's born into a very upper middle class family. And you know, he gets sent to a succession of boarding schools because, you know, his father was much older when he had his son. He had actually had two wives before Frederick's mom. And so he can't handle this very boisterous, outdoorsy son that he has. So he actually gets shipped off to boarding schools all around the area. And there's several he goes to. But the pivotal one is when he gets shipped off to Rugby School, which is where he has a sympathetic housemaster who knows how to deal with this boisterous young man who cares nothing for getting an education if it didn't involve the natural world in some way and the outdoors in some way. And one of the things is, Sulu comes from an incredibly well educated family as well. You know, his. His uncles were noted authorities on natural history, both in bird watching and in botany and entomology. That's through his mother's side. His own mother was a published poet and playwright and all the rest of it. And you know, Salou's own siblings, you know, those older and younger than him, he's in the. In the middle of all of the kids. All of them go on to be quite intellectual. In fact, his brother Edmund is the father of modern bird watching, who's another character I'd love to talk about as well. In fact, his brother invented the term bird watching and bird watcher as a recreational activity to go hand in hand with the sport of birds as it was in England and Europe at that time. So, you know, Salou is surrounded by this love of learning, of poetry, of music and which he carries with him his whole life. You know, he could read music very, very well. And it's one of the things I often think of. Imagine him where he used to travel with sheet music in his saddlebags, together with a couple of books that he always traveled with throughout the whole wilds of Africa, including a copy of Thackeray's poems. And he also quite enjoyed a bit of the more romantic stuff by Byron and others. But. But he always used to carry sheet music and at the fire he would pull out the sheet music and he could read it in his head and hear the music. And I always imagine it's like him playing his own little concert around the fire in the evenings after a hard day out, and he's reading this music.
- [18:20]
Robbie
How crazy is somebody like that today? Think about somebody today going on safari with two books of poems with one theme, one more of a romantic theme, and like, obviously cracking open the books at night whilst he's lying in his cot or around the fire, like, you know, going through the poems. It's crazy.
- [18:43]
Paul Hubbard
Absolutely. And as he got a bit older and better known on his hunting trips, he actually always used to have a trunk of books as well as all of his own personal journals and writing instruments and stuff. But in his books he would carry this mixture of wildlife publications, the latest poetry and he also enjoyed reading a lot of the classics. He enjoyed Shakespeare. He enjoyed, as it became more widely available, you know, the works of Charles Dickens. He quite enjoyed Mark Twain's work as well because he also saw something, you know, to identify in their writings, but also, you know, it fulfilled his own keen intellect because, you know, when we talk about like salud. Growing up reading these books on Africa, he had actually devoured a huge amount of, of other books which he also writes about and we know a lot about his reading tastes. I'm not going to go into it now, even though I love knowing what people like to read, simply because, you know, he writes a lot of letters to his mother and he'll tell her, oh, I was reading this and oh, I, I've came across this mention and oh, thank you for this recommendation. No, I didn't like that one. You know, all the stuff you talk about to your mom when you're a young man in your early teens through to early adulthood, you know. And you know, Salou, he, he fascinates me on so many levels, you know, because he, even to this day, you know, he's a larger than life legend and the more you learn about him, the more he was aware of his fame later on in his years. But it meant nothing to him, which I also find extraordinary. You know, he knew himself very well and neither flattery nor ego much got in the way of what he saw as his life's missions, which also changed as he developed as well. But you know, one of the things is, is that, you know, which also again, I think almost anyone who loves the outdoors and especially those who love to go hunting of whatever you, wherever and whatever you like to hunt, I think you can identify a lot with his childhood as well, is that he's bunking school a lot of the time, you know, getting out of lessons and dashing out into the outdoors. And one of the things that was a lifelong passion for him was butterfly collecting. Everywhere he went, he carried butterfly nets and ether. Later on when it became, you know, easier to obtain and all that with collecting jars and meticulously handwritten notes. I've looked at some of the specimens Salou had collected for various museums and
- [21:14]
Robbie
did he, did he create a butterfly collection for people?
- [21:16]
Paul Hubbard
People? Oh, massive. You know, he, he donated thousands of specimens to the Museum of Natural History in London. He also collected and donated thousands of specimens into various American museums. The Smithsonian has some of his bits and pieces of his stuff. Several major European museums. He, he was, it was one thing after his career in Hunting, which we'll get to. He made a living for himself as a collector of natural specimens, but butterfly collecting was his act, absolute lifelong passion. More than hunting, in a way, or should I say hunting large game in a way, because he, he was offered court at school with his butterfly net and usually pockets filled with specimens as well as books where he would press some of the flowers and fungi and all sorts of stuff that he would find in the, in the woods around Rugby School. And of course he, as a youth, he was also in the, in the terminology of the day, he was a notorious poacher. There are so many stories of Salu being at school and being forced to run off because he had left school and was out on the surrounding areas, which were all, you know, these big country estates.
- [22:30]
Robbie
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [22:32]
Paul Hubbard
And he's there poaching birds eggs. He was poaching birds themselves because of course in those days, if you didn't have permission of the landowner and you there taking anything, you're a poacher under the law. And there's many a time where he had to save himself by showing off the incredible speed and stamina that he was well known for later on as an African hunter, by dashing off away from the, the gamekeepers, you know, who patrolled the areas and all communicated with each other to keep an eye out for that young man should he be found on their thing. And he's, he's on record as having swum flooded rivers to get away from some of the gamekeepers. And always, and he never let go of his specimens. As he would run, he'd have those things, it was more precious to him than his own skin. A lot of the time when he, he, he discovers these things and it's
- [23:20]
Robbie
funny, I know a bunch of hunters right now that are butterfly collectors too.
- [23:25]
Paul Hubbard
Yeah, I think it's a, you know, I always joke, I, I, I find as I'm getting older, you know, butterflies have become a bit more of an obsession. I haven't quite built up a collection yet, but I got a collection of books on butterflies. So I don't know how it's in
- [23:38]
Robbie
a, I think you stick with the books, stick with the book. You don't need to have another hobby.
- [23:44]
Paul Hubbard
Yeah. But, you know, and it's, and it's also, you know, a lot of the, a lot of the gamekeepers, when they got to know him, they actually treated him with a, a rough, good natured geniality where, you know, he would be given a clip around the ear and whatever he had stolen would be confiscated, it be sent on his way. And you know, with Salu as well, what I. What I absolutely also adore about him is that he had an. For his whole life he had a very, very funny sense of humor, both for practical jokes as well as wordplay. And he adored, adored, you know, good skits and jokes as well, you know, just. And some of them don't age well, as you would expect. Big either because the context is lost or they are definitely, to use the. The modern term, definitely not politically correct. But, you know, he. At school he was known for playing practical jokes. He got beaten by a master once and he was supposed to come back for round two and he ran off and the master chased him into a shed at rugby school and he climbed. He had already propped open the window at the back of the shed, climbed out, locked the window, ran around, locked the door, and then left the master there for the rest of the morning. And you know, the master that was only found like at lunchtime, this was like five in the morning. And, you know, he would do that. And then when asked about it, he denied all knowledge and said, no, the wind must have blown the door shut while the master was chasing some phantasm, which is a word I love as well, you know. And, you know, so you could see he was definitely destined to be a hunter because he also had no respect for authority, or should I say, no, wait, that's wrong. No respect. Polity. Authority. Yeah. You know, no respect for petty authority. And, you know, one of the things that I love as well is that, you know, just like many in the industry, at least that I know in Zimbabwe today, some of them are born to it. It's very obvious. But your family always have hopes of other things for you as you're growing up. And for Salou, his. His father especially wanted him to become a medical doctor. And Salus, practical jokes and poaching exploits and all this had basically gotten him Persona non grata at rugby. They were on the cusp of wanting to kick him out. And so a deal is struck when Sulu is 16 and they send him off to Vienna to. To begin training as a. As a doctor. And what's kind of amazing to me is that, you know, he. This is where he picks up on.
- [26:12]
Robbie
This is his family saying, like, you're going somewhere else. This is what you're going to be. You're going to be a doctor.
- [26:19]
Paul Hubbard
Yes. You know, his father, who, as I said, was much, much older than him, just wanted something, what he saw as normal, you Know, like, how are you going to make a living out in the bush? You know, you got to be a gamekeeper, you know, like, that's sort of what are you going to work for someone else? It'd be pennies. Because his father was a stockbroker and a banker, so, you know, they were very comfortably well off. But for, for, for Salou, even though he appreciated the comfortable lifestyle, money was not often a motivator for him. It was important throughout his whole life. You know, he understood money, or rather its lack and the impact it would have on what he really wanted to do. But a life dedicated to making money had no interest for him. And that's also why, you know, him and his father have quite a few to dos, I guess you'd call them nowadays, where words are exchanged and things are said and all the rest of it. So this trip, this being sent to Vienna is a bit of a compromise to get him off the continent and away from each other for a while. But also while there, his mother signs him up for all sorts of language lessons and for the violin, which Salou takes to very, very well. You know, he actually learns to play the violin quite well. And indeed, later on, you know, visitors to his home would often find him and his, his later wife, you know, on the violin and piano and keeping each other entertained. And, you know, Salou is there in Vienna and gaining his education, but he also takes the time to travel around the continent a little bit. And one of the biggest reasons, which sounds absolutely absurd, as to why Selu comes to Africa, because he had been arguing with his father from the age of 16 that I want to go to Africa. That's where my home is. I feel a connection to that place. Never been there. None of the family had any connections to Africa.
- [28:07]
Robbie
Yeah, dad hadn't gone to Africa, hadn't regaled him with stories. All he's doing is he's reading about Africa through these Baldwin and Livingstone's tales.
- [28:17]
Paul Hubbard
Yes, yes, and all the, you know,
- [28:20]
Robbie
and all the others, obviously.
- [28:21]
Paul Hubbard
And others obviously, but absolutely those too. And so one of the things is he's also not doing well at medical school because he later on in his book Travels and Adventure in Southeast Africa, he actually mentions that he only does well in medical school while he thought it would be useful information to treat himself while out in Africa. So, you know, it's a bit like having to learn first aid so, you know, you can deal with an emergency and then who cares about the rest? I don't need to know about how childbirth works. Or anything else that doctors need to know. You know, it's like, how do I take a bullet out? You know, or how do you stop bleeding? And you know, that's what he's interested in. So what actually brings him to Africa, and this is going to sound absolutely crazy, is the Franco Prussian War, you know, as newly unified France and Germany are flexing their might against each other, which then breaks out into, to all out warfare. Sulu is actually completely oblivious to the outbreak of the war when it happens because he's out in the Austrian countryside collecting butterflies. And then as soon as he hears the war is out has started, he actually goes to the front and because he's got this vague idea that, well, maybe if he signs up as a soldier he'll get some independence and head off away from his foe and then he can get on with his life. And what happens is he decides that the life of a soldier in that moment is not for him because as he's watching the battle he sees genuinely, this is written up in one of his biographies where he sees a butterfly in the middle of the shelling, where there's no man's land and all this and he runs out into it to go capture the butterfly, then gets back, I can't understand why. All of his friends who had watched him run out there are absolutely horrified and they tell his mother who then tells him, you come home now, you know, like we're not having here in the middle of this war running around like the idiot you are. You know, it's again, you know, I'm skipping over some stuff here but what happens to me, which is absolutely amazing to think about in the, in the life of anyone, even if this happened today, it's, it's kind of amazing because when Salus recalled home, you got to think about it, that it's the end of June 1871 and on his way home he stopped off in Vienna. He's actually gone to see, you know, an opera and some live orchestral performances and he's bought a few more books to read. He signed off that he's qualified on the violin at the end of June 1871. And on the 1st of September 1871, he steps foot in Africa for the first time. Okay, now you think that that's basically July and August before he set foot in Africa. Two months. And it's actually less than that because he leaves, he has to leave England. He never tells us when he does, but when you look at the shipping trips and all this, if he is arriving on the 1st of September, you can work back on which ship he must have. Where does he land?
- [31:19]
Robbie
When he lands in Africa, where does he land?
- [31:21]
Paul Hubbard
Cape Town, which you would never know from reading his books.
- [31:26]
Robbie
But that's like a, that's gotta be at least a two month journey.
- [31:30]
Paul Hubbard
So yeah, so he leaves England on the 24th of July.
- [31:33]
Robbie
So he must get into England, he must be recalled back and says screw this and five's the first ship that he can possibly find and gets on it and goes, I'm out.
- [31:43]
Paul Hubbard
Well, it's, it's almost exactly like that where basically he goes home and he has a, he has a serious chat with his mother and father and he says to them, I'm going to Africa, so please can I borrow some money, dad? And he says, and then I'll pay you back and if I don't pay you back, I'll come back home. That's what he actually, you know, that's the sort of deal that, that he strikes with his father which is, you know, we don't know the exact wording between them, but in a later letter when his mother's writing to him, when he's told her that he's staying on in Africa now and he's re, you know, he's spoiler alert. But he does manage to pay his father back so he can stay on in Africa for much longer. He, he, you know, basically asks for a loan from his father and says I'm off, I'm out of here, you don't want me in Europe, I don't want to be here, I'm going to Africa and you can either help me or I'm going anyway. So his father actually loans him 400 pound and, and says right, off you go. So what's amazing is when you read this is again the reprint. I don't have a first edition of
- [32:45]
Robbie
this as much as Hunter's Wanderings in Africa. FCC.
- [32:49]
Paul Hubbard
Yep, this is Salus first book. And when you read it, this book actually starts with one of my favorite lines in African literature because we just said that he arrives on the 1st of September, 1871, but the book starts on the 4th of September, 1871. I set foot for the first time upon the sandy shores of Algoa Bay with 400 pounds in my pocket and the weight of only 19 years upon my shoulders.
- [33:16]
Robbie
So why he arrived on the 1st of September?
- [33:21]
Paul Hubbard
Well, we know this because he writes a letter home to his mom to tell her that he arrived on that day. So he's not claiming to have arrived in Africa, because Salou, one of the most important things to know about him is he was incredibly honest. He could make mistakes in some of his opinions and facts that he had gathered on his trips. But he is quite a faithful recounter of what happens. You know, there's, you know, to coin a phrase, there was no BS about the man. And this was something that followed him his entire life, was that, you know, one of my favorite quotes is from Cornelius Van Rooyen, one of the greatest hunters in the history of Africa, as far as I'm concerned. Another guy for another talk. But Van Royen always says achievement. That man, Salou, he never lies. And for a hardcore Afrikada to say that about an Englishman, you know, that there was a solid reputation there, you know, in those, in those years, because when Roy hunted with Salou, also read some of his books and was like, yeah, no, that's, that's, you know, you are straight arrow. So Salus not lying there because he says, I stepped foot for the first time on the sandy shores of Algoa Bay. You know, he's not saying in Africa. So he would also do that. Which again, you know, we give him the benefit of the doubt. But what's amazing is that you think is that two months previously, there he is in the heart of culture, in the warm bosom of a wealthy family, with everything available to him that his heart could desire. And here he is at 19, saying goodbye to all of that, to follow almost a decade long dream, young as he was, to come to Africa. And I just think that that's the most amazing thing ever, you know, and it speaks to a lot of qualities about the man that recur throughout his life. You know, his integrity, his courage, his ability to make decisions with some assurance, even as difficult as they could be, and also once made, not to follow them blindly, but to adapt as the situation demanded. You know, he was an incredibly thoughtful guy who would continuously assess what was going on and not give up, but say, okay, this isn't working. Can we do this? Or this I don't want to do anymore. How can I change this for myself and for the better? And, you know, his life and career, you know, is shaped by those values. And, you know, one of the things when I did a talk on Salou for the Professional Guys association last year, and the thrust of it was looking at him as the archetype for our modern profession today, whether you're in the photographic industry or the, the hunting side,
- [35:56]
Robbie
in terms of his characteristics or what.
- [35:59]
Paul Hubbard
Yes, yeah. Looking at what did he do that? We still do today because it is the best ethical practice. And salud ticks so many boxes in the way he lives his life and the way he behaves as a hunter, in the way he would take animals, of course, to a different extent than we would today, but also in his respect for so many rules and processes that today are enforced. But in those days, was a. Was an option.
- [36:28]
Robbie
Like what? Well, as an example. Okay, perfect.
- [36:31]
Paul Hubbard
So. So one of the first ones is, you know, like I said, that decisive nature, you know, when you're a guide, you. You have a thousand and one things that you've got to be paying attention. Attention to it the whole time when you're doing approaches and all the rest of it. And you have to. You have to always be taking into account the behavior of the animal, the behavior of who's with you, what you're trying, and what the end result has got to be. One of my other favorite ones is how humble Salus was his entire life. He never assumed he was. Knew everything about anything. As experienced and amazing as he was to become, he always would find people with whom he could learn and learn from and learn with and on everything, no matter that by the time he dies, you know, Salou is a world authority on African wildlife. Across the entire continent, east, west, south, north, he had hunted many of those areas. He had looked at specimens, he had met scientists and researchers and, you know, plundered their knowledge for himself. And he would still find the time to talk to a tracker and say to him, well, how did you know that this was, you know, a leche and not an impala track? You know, tell. Explain to me how you would think about it, which is the way it's got to be. You know, you. You can learn from everyone at any time. And that's one of my guiding lights in my life, you know, is. And. And he surrounds himself all the time, especially in his first decade as a. As a professional hunter here in southern Africa. He is always linking himself to people who know more, who can teach him, from whom he can also learn just by watching them, especially when he goes out hunting, because, you know, Salou's first kill in Africa, his first harvest, was a hare that he saw on the side of the road that he takes a potshot as. As potshot at. While he's traveling up from Algo Bay through to. To the Kimberley area, he actually managed to get a rabbit. And he's so excited about it. When you read his book, it's. He writes about this like he's just managed to go after a lion, you know what I mean? It's, it's, it's a thing. And that's the other thing that he does, is he knows how to tell a good story, which to me is one of your prerequisites if you're going to be a good hunter and guide. You know, you've got to be able to tell a story. Story.
- [38:46]
Robbie
Do we know if Sulu has a plan? Does he gets there and, like, how long does he spend in Cape Town? Does he just say, all right, I'm out, and starts trending in a southeast in a northeastly direction?
- [39:00]
Paul Hubbard
So, yeah, he arrives in Cape Town, he spends a couple of days just to cash his letters of credit and to acclimatize himself and to ask questions. And then he gets back on a ship and sails around to Algoa Bay, which is where he actually now begins his venture into the interior. And why he chooses to go there, rather than trying to leave from Cape Town, is he found Cape Town far too civilized. He actually says, you know, it's like being back in Vienna at the time with everyone in their crimped dresses and fancy shoes and all the rest of it. So he couldn't wait to get back in his shorts and boots and be running wild again. So he goes to Delago Bay, Algo Bay, to. To start his journey to the interior there, because it was seen as being more wild. But also, he didn't know it at the time, but that was where a lot of his heroes that he had read about in African hunting had been hunting elephant. And that's what he wanted to do. He wanted to hunt elephant. He didn't care where, he didn't care how in Africa, but he wanted to have a career as an elephant hunter, which by the time he arrives in 1871, we are right at the tail end of elephant hunting as a profession in southern and central Africa, because the vast herds of elephants, which had been easy pickings since the 1840s, had been all but decimated in South Africa. What we'd think of today as southern Botswana and also throughout the southern Mozambique, you know, Zimbabwe, you know, we're using a modern geography today, but Zimbabwe was still terra incognita in a way because of the. The existence of the Ndebele kingdom, who stopped all outsiders at.
- [40:37]
Robbie
But we know from, from previous podcasts that they were heavy ivory traders themselves.
- [40:43]
Paul Hubbard
Correct.
- [40:43]
Robbie
So correct again. Going back to sort of the podcast themes that we've had in the past, it almost, you know, Feels like coming out of the 1870s through the 1910s, 1920s. Elephants are scarce in. In. Based on, you know, all anecdotal information that we can find. I think somebody said that Wangi had like. I don't know. Or was it Wangi or general Zimbabwe, like 4,000 elephants or something like that? Maybe it was Wangi itself.
- [41:18]
Paul Hubbard
Yeah, I think Ted Davidson says Wangi had fewer than 4,000 elephants when he arrived there in the 20s. And you then read about Salu's era as the Ndebele begin to grudgingly open up the hunter's road to allow people to hunt in certain parts of the kingdom where it was much more densely populated. So when Salou arrives here, you know, his dream is to become an elephant hunter. And, you know, at that time, one of the things that makes it all the remarkable is that he manages to live for a decade as a. As an elephant hunter, making a living from hunting elephants, hippo and some of the other more charismatic big game like zebra, giraffe, lion, kudu, for their skins and their horns. And
- [42:08]
Robbie
at this time being, is he just hunting for himself? Is he taking people? What's the scenario here? Or is he just a contract guy that's selling skins, selling ivory, or both?
- [42:20]
Paul Hubbard
So this is kind of cool. I love that question. Okay. Because what happens is when he arrives here, he's got £400 in his pocket, so he's actually able to kit himself out really well to head into the interior. So he's able to buy a wagon, which was hugely important for bringing your stuff back from the interior. You know, you needed that, that heavy thing. And the wagon that he buys originally is capable of carrying seven tons of kit. So he can also be well provisioned for his journey in. But it also allows him to do something that not a lot of other traders could. Hunters and traders in the interior could do at that time, where he would hunt for himself. And, you know, there's a whole bunch of statistics on, you know, how many elephants he shoots in his first year, in his second year, his third year, you know, all the. All that sort of stuff. But suffice to say, when he goes out hunting, he's shooting a lot of elephants for himself. And then he would also. But he's not just by himself. He would actually be out with these other hunters who would go up and set up camp in certain areas and then ride out or walk out for days at a time from their camp and shoot what they could, let the tusks, recover the tusks later. Once the elephants have lain in the felt for a time to soften everything up so you can just pull them out and then transport them back to that central area. So what Salu was able to do is also to link up with a lot of these white and black and also mixed race, the Griquas and coloured as we call them here in Zimbabwe, mixing up with them and then just buying out right from them and then bringing all of that ivory and other wildlife products back to the coast and selling it off for a profit. So you see, he's doing both where he's, he's hunting for himself, but he's also doing it. And, you know, Salou has no idea what he's doing when he, when he arrives here. He has not a clue. He had grown up using a gun. But this is different to having an elephant gun as we think of it. You know, one of those big boar muzzle loaders is what he starts his career off with. And I've got details written down if, if anyone's interested on his, on his actual firearms, but let's get to that in a second. But the, the humor is, is that when he arrives in Cape Town, one of the first things he does is a mistake, is he buys what he thinks is an elephant gun and it's just an antique shotgun, which he only realizes, you know, like, he's also like us when he arrives here, you know, nothing. No, nothing.
- [44:48]
Robbie
Yeah.
- [44:49]
Paul Hubbard
And thankfully he falls in with a few guys who, you know, who are able to, to, to sort him out. Guys who become legends like George Phillips and Pete Jacobs and Cornelius Van Royen. And also one of the most impactful guys on his, in his whole life is of course his man Cigar, who Sulu called a Hottentot. Today we call him a Koi. A man who had made a life for himself as a professional hunter as well, and sort of took young Sulu under his wing and taught him the ways of the bush and about how to survive out there, but also, you know, hunting, tracking, skinning, all that sort of stuff. And Cigar and Salou form a lifelong bond until Cigars tragically killed much later on, you know. And Salou also learns something very different to a lot of his contemporaries thanks to his mentorship by Cigar, which was a lot more responsible respect for the, the indigenous peoples of southern Africa than many of his contemporaries. That is one of the, the amazing things about many of these early hunters, Salu preeminent among them, in my opinion, is that they do, they leave those European ideas about racial Superiority and cultural dominance and, you know, as they leave it at the, at the seaside when they're coming into the interior. Yes, sure, they've, they still are, are fairly racist by our standards today, but by the standards of their time, how they change in the African inter, their links and communications. A lot of them, and not everyone, of course, but a lot of these men, and Salu preeminent among them, drops a lot of. You look at the changes in his language from his first book to his second book. You know, he's a lot more embedded in the culture and appreciative and respectful of the peoples with whom he's in contact, trading with, traveling through their territories, asking questions about and, you know, all that sort of stuff. And again, it sets him apart from many of his contemporaries.
- [46:45]
Robbie
Paul, from day one, is Salou thinking about writing? Like, is he thinking, oh, I'm going to write a book and then I'm going to write another one, as you said, like the opening stanza, that book is, you know, September 4, 1871, I put my feet on the sands of Algoa Bay. In his brain, is it just more like a journaling exercise every day of like, I'm just writing down what happened today. And then after a certain sometime it's like, oh, I think I've got something here. Bundle it up and send it to England and see if somebody will bind it and publish it.
- [47:20]
Paul Hubbard
Ah, excellent. So Sulu, as I mentioned, his background is from a very cultured literary family, but initially it's just he had the discipline of keeping a daily journal. And one of the most remarkable things about Salou is the meticulous records he kept on many, many fronts. He had a book where he would keep it as a journal, you know, just writing down what he had done, what he had experienced, what he thought. He then also kept a meticulously compiled game book where he recorded every single thing he shot, whether it was a bird, a rabbit or an elephant. It went in the book. He tells you which weapon he used, where he was and all the rest of it. And, you know, we are very lucky today because one of his game books surfaced recently for the period, you know, from the late, sorry, mid-1870s. There's a page from one of his books where you can see the. I'll send you this, you know, and you can see it's meticulous. And one of the things is a wonderful historian based in the uk, a guy called Mike Tucker, has done the most incredible work on compiling a spreadsheet of everything that Sulu Hunted in his career in Africa between 1871-1889. Because generally in History of Africa, Salus stops being an African hunter full time in 1889. And that's because he changes careers to, to join up with Cecil Rhodes and take part in the colonization of Zimbabwe, Zambia, and he works for the British South Africa Company for a time. So, you know, he, his career as a, as a, as a hunter of elephant is 10 years, it's 1871 to about 1881. He then drops the idea of being a full time elephant hunter and he actually becomes a, I, I, I would label him as a conservationist hunter, all right, but he's basically a collector. Where he gets, after the publication of that book, his first book, A Hunter's Wanderings in Africa, one of the things that it becomes, which is linked to his ideas about why he wants to do a book, is he becomes an instant authority on the wildlife, culture and geography of south and East Southern.
- [49:34]
Robbie
In the time frame of him writing the first book, it's not 10 years, right? What is it? Is it the first six months?
- [49:42]
Paul Hubbard
Takes him six months to belt it out from all of those records.
- [49:45]
Robbie
But where do we, do we know geographically where he goes from Algoa Bay? How far geographically in those six months does he actually push in?
- [49:53]
Paul Hubbard
No, no, sorry. It takes him, it takes him six months to write the book, but he disappears for, for basically with only one short trip back to the UK in 1875. He stays in Africa for that decade, 1871-1881, he goes back to England.
- [50:08]
Robbie
So is it the first book published after 1881?
- [50:12]
Paul Hubbard
Correct? Yes. Yeah. Okay. Okay, that's, Sorry, my apologies. I, I do the m. In those
- [50:17]
Robbie
10 years, do we know where he goes? Like from Algoa, like where does he actually go?
- [50:22]
Paul Hubbard
Oh, well, he goes up to, to Kimberley. Then he does a whole bunch of short sojourns, you know, around that area, heads up towards the Limpopo, comes back again and then, you know, he then goes off into what, what was then called Bethuna Land. Today it's actually part of northern South Africa. But you know, in those days this is so the Transvaal. You know, northern South Africa is the bit that touches the Limpopo and then you come down all the way towards the Orange River. You know, he spends a bit of time in that area and then he also begins his many, many trips into the interior. And this guy would ride and walk and hunt like you just cannot believe. Across most of what is Zimbabwe today, heading up eventually into Zambia, much Much later on. And you know, when you, you look at it, I actually have a map here showing you every single journey that he does. And again, I'll, I'll send you this email and you can, you can add it as a. Yeah, sure, yeah. That people can pause on. Which is done by the Royal Geographic Society of which Salou later becomes a member and wins all sorts of medals for his discoveries and mapping and the naming of places and you know, all that sort of stuff. But you know, he, he travels a lot into, sorry, through what is Botswana today. Up towards the Makadi Khadi Pans is before he crosses over into Zim, you know, for his first couple of years trying to be a professional hunter. And in his first couple of years he's very lucky with where he ends up hunting in, in, you know, in, in Botswana and heading up towards the Makarikadi Pans and all that sort of area. He makes enough money that he's be able to pay back his father. And then he comes back, resupplies while he's selling off all the ivory that he had both hunted himself and also traded from other hunters, you know, where he just paid them out in the, in the African wilds and then brought back a whole bunch of stuff. And then he comes back up and he, he travels up to the court of King Lobengula to ask permission to take the road into the interior of Matabilili land. And this is where he meets a whole lot of the legends who take him under his wing at the court of King Lobengula. And now I have just blanked. Oh no, that's it. He, he meets Lobengula in September of 1872, which is a pivotal time in Indobele history because 1872 or 1882. No, 1872 is when he meets King Lobengula the first time Master landing after
- [53:01]
Robbie
one year after landing in Cape Town. He's already up there.
- [53:04]
Paul Hubbard
Yep. You know, because he's, he's given his luck and he's done all these other small forays and now he's decided he's going to be a, you know, a full time elevator and you know, what, what age is he? 1851-72. So he's 21, you know. Yeah, yeah. So what's absolutely amazing is when Lobengula, it's quite a famous story told about Salou all the time is when he meets King Lobengula himself In his late 40s, at this moment, asked to take the road north to hunt elephant and Lobengula Looks at him and he says, are you sure you don't mean Steenbok, young man? Because elephants are too big for someone as small as you. And you know, Suzuh's like, how big is Salua? If I recall, he's about 5 foot 10. And you know, he's very lithe. That's how I describe Salu. His entire life he's live, incredibly well muscled, fair proportions, the most piercing blue eyes. Everyone who, who talks about his physical appearance talks about how his eyes could, could almost look through you and missed nothing. He also had, you know, quite fair hair, which was further bleached on exposure to the African sun, you know. And then he, for much of his time, he always had this big, thick, luxurious beard that would only be trimmed into civility back in, back in Europe, you know, otherwise he always had, like everyone did in those days, you know, this nice big, big bush beard and all the rest of it. And you know, he, but he, he looked, he always looked much younger than he was. You know, you even look at the photos of him in 1917, just before he dies, and I swear to God, he looks like in his late 40s, but he's actually 65. You know, he always looked very youthful, despite his time in the African sun, which always prematurely ages some of us from exposure.
- [54:52]
Robbie
Lobangula, when he's meet Salut, does he just say yes? No problems? Access the elephant road. Is it that simple? Is he that charismatic? Is he that convincing?
- [55:03]
Paul Hubbard
So when you read Salou's account of it, what's quite amusing is it seems like he's given the road because Lobengula thinks he's so young that he's gonna mess it up and then have to come back with his head between his, his tail between his legs. Sorry. And you know, that he, he has to be, he has to learn the hard way. And so Lomengrilis makes that joke about, oh, I don't think you're old enough to hunt elephants. You can only hunt steenbok. And then he says, but, you know, off you go. And there's this myth that's grown up which comes from Salus first biography, which was published just after he had died, where, you know, allegedly Lobengula says to him, oh, and you know, it's only when you kill an elephant that will actually call you a man. That's a myth. Lobungula never says that to him. And we know that because there were others present in this meeting who've left their own details, none of which mention that because that's quite a good line, you know, it's for someone who's destined to become a famous hunter. But no, that's, that's, that's a happy invention by some of his friends paying tribute to him, in my opinion. I've never found any, any evidence to support that. As much as I love the story, you know, it's, it's. The facts have got to matter occasionally.
- [56:13]
Robbie
So clearly successful in the interior. He's clearly successful once he takes the elephant road into Zim.
- [56:21]
Paul Hubbard
Oh, yes. You know, and it's, it's partly because of his willingness to team up with other more experienced hunters. He, he spends a lot of time up in the Wangi area, as we think of it today, come before him
- [56:34]
Robbie
at this point, like who is already spoken to Loban Gula and said they've got access also to the elephant. He's not the first one to get access, right?
- [56:43]
Paul Hubbard
No, no, definitely not. You know, you've got characters like George west beach who, who rebuilds Panda Matinga into one of the largest villages in the interior, you know, which is on the border between Zimbabwe and Botswana today. You've also got Van Royan as one of the great hunters, Jube. There's also John Lee, who had come in under Mzilikazi actually, and had hunted the Wangi area and elsewhere. There's also a plethora of Afrikaners who we don't know anything about because they don't write. And a lot of the time the only records we have of them is because they bump into literate hunters who write about their lives later on, you know, people like Salou who bump into these guys and then sometimes that's the only information that we have that they ever even existed, at least in the English speaking world. Because in the Afrikaada world there might be archives and stuff that have yet to be tapped of family diaries and stuff. So there's always more to learn out there. But for today, I'll tell you now because, you know, I read Afrikaats as well, very badly, but I can read it. Can't speak it very well, but I do read it. And you know, I've just been going through this fascinating book called the First Europeans in the Kruger Area. And I start going, oh, I know that guy because he was also in Wangi, you know, and this is from the 1750s, long before even the Ndebele are coming into this area, you know, and then you start to see a whole bunch of guys from the 1840s onwards coming up into hunt in this part of the world. And they dodge the Ndebele kingdom by going up through Botswana, through the Makadi Khadi, to Lake Ngami, and then to the falls. You know, once. Once Livingston has made his maps public and all that sort of stuff, you know, so. So there's a lot of these earlier hunters. And again, you know, I want to stress I'm still learning a lot about these guys, but Sulu is definitely, you know, in with the crowd as well, as young as he was. And also the fact that he's an Englishman, you know, he. He falls in with the right crowd.
- [58:48]
Robbie
The only Englishman. Were there? No, no, no.
- [58:51]
Paul Hubbard
This forum was.
- [58:52]
Robbie
No, there were others, right?
- [58:53]
Paul Hubbard
Yeah. No. One of my favorites. He actually ends up marrying a couple of Lobengula's daughters is a guy's called George Phillips, you know, who. Who is actually Salu's best man at his wedding, many years later. There's also, for heaven's sake, George Wood, with whom Salou goes into partnership. Wood actually writes a book called Ten Months in a Wagon. And Wood is actually quite interesting because he comes up here as a hunter and he leaves as a gold miner because Wood gets involved in the Tarti area and starts looking for gold and forgets all about elephants, as you do, you know. But Salhu's in partnership with George Wood, and they have a very good relationship for a lot of the time. And that's another character of Salou, is that, you know, he seemed to have this talent of getting along with almost everyone. You know, he had a head for languages as well, so he learns a lot of the indigenous languages. You know, he gets quite fluent in Swana. He also understands a lot of indebile. He. He also picks up shona in a very, very important degree. Same as he could, you know, had a smattering of German and French and Italian and, you know, so in his head, there's. There's this amazing ability to communicate as well. And, you know, the. The other thing as well is that when Salou is going out hunting, you know, it's not just him by himself. He's often got a stream of gun bearers, you know, who are walking, running, or riding behind him, carrying the extra weapons, ammunition, knives, you know, all the other stuff you need when you're going out on these hunts. And a lot of the time he's striking out into areas that are not that well known. That's the cool thing about Salou. He was never afraid to try areas that others had no interest in, you know, and one of the famous ones is, you know, into Northern Wenge, which at that time was seen as a bit of a desert where Salud gets there and he just. And he arrives at the right time of the year, which is, you know, towards the end of the rainy season and there's just elephants everywhere and he's able to harvest like nobody else's business and arrives back to, to meet up with old Jube who looks at him and goes, oh my word. What? What? You know, like, how did you do this? Yeah, yeah, you know, and you know, and Salu would also spend long times camped in, in one area and then range out quite widely. And you know, it's, it's my main interest in him recently has been in the Wangi, what is Wangi national park today? Because there's a lot of cool stuff where there's modern features which we only know about because Salu names them, you know, and he records the names. And one of the tricks that he does, just like his hero David Livingston is Salu, with a handful of exceptions, always used the local names for places, you know, and when he, an interesting one, even though he's an Englishman, he did not like the British government or the royal family very much at the time. And so whenever you look at whatever he names in English like Mount Hamden or Coridon or something like that, it's always something connected to, to anti royalist feelings, but he would never say so in a way. But this, you know, it's kind of amazing when you look at. That's an article a friend of mine is working on at the moment because we were having this, this discussion over some good brewed grains, fermented grains, and this came out that I said, you know, well, this guy and you're this guy and this guy. So he's busy working on that and I look forward to reading it when it eventually comes out. But the, the, you know, the thing with Salu like you famously where Wangi main camp is today, as you're going into the park, there's still the Kombrito in Burbie, the leadwood tree that he camped under still standing there today.
- [62:27]
Robbie
It's actually amazing.
- [62:29]
Paul Hubbard
Yeah. And it was very well know that.
- [62:31]
Robbie
How many people know that that is or is there is there a monument, a testament to this is Sulu's tree or how many tourists go past it and be like, yeah, it's another tree.
- [62:40]
Paul Hubbard
Not very many tourists are allowed to go past it because it's actually got the, the, the park manager's house is Built with the garden. That's where Ted Davidson put his house. So you know, you, you, if you ask, they'll let you go and have a look. And it's a very easy one to know because there's a little wall holding up the. The one branch had started to sag as happens with these incredibly old. So they built a little bit of a brick thing. It used to be an iron pipe to hold the branch up. So you'll know the tree when you see it. And you know, he camps there for several months at a time and then he goes ranging around all throughout the areas today, many of which are private concessions unfortunately. So you can't actually go necessarily everywhere he went that he talks about. But you know, he's hunting in areas today that are part of this national park. And that's also something that fascinates me because especially when you're reading a hunter's wanderings in Africa and you go back on the ground with into these areas, it speaks a lot to the environmental changes and similarities over the past 160 years in some of these areas.
- [63:38]
Robbie
Do you think it's possible to do that? Do you think it's possible to look back at Salou's writings and pick up a journey. Here's his wandering from. Just use Wangi. You've been talking about Wangi from Wangi north and pick up a day in the life of Tsulu or multiple, you know, week long expedition where he goes, these are the animals I saw, these are the animals I hunted and redo it today. Has anybody done that?
- [64:14]
Paul Hubbard
I've done it with a few guests through Wangi where we've started way down in the southern areas. And I've said right today I. And it's where I know he was. You know, then I'll say okay, he must have gone sort of in this way to get to the next point where I can confirm where he was because of the terrain or whatever. And we do that. And one of the things I have. I don't know where I've put it. I pulled it out to work on it. But I actually.
- [64:39]
Robbie
Does he just like for instance, does he describe the landscape I. E. Today when you obviously elephant densities are 10 times, 20 times, 30 times they what they were
- [64:50]
Paul Hubbard
like yes, you know what
- [64:52]
Robbie
he wrote and then look at the landscape and go wow.
- [64:55]
Paul Hubbard
The main way I've done that is by looking at some of the pans that he mentions because the names have survived into the present day. Or I've managed to figure out if the names of the pans have changed which ones he was talking about to compare to what we talk to today. Also some of the. I know Wangi is not a place you associate with river systems, but there are actually several fossil rivers that in Salou's time had a bit more water than they do today. So he talks about going through like the Masuma Malisa river, the Linquasha Flay, where there are safari camps stationed today who do acknowledge and appreciate that Salou legacy. I will hasten to add for the lodges that are based in those areas also up towards Northern Wangi. Like he talks about where he travels along the Lukozi River. The one thing I did with a mate of mine because as I think I've mentioned to you before, I've got very long suffering friends who are very wary of accepting trip invitations from me to places, but the one I did.
- [65:49]
Robbie
So there's different expeditions as I understand.
- [65:52]
Paul Hubbard
Yes, lure. Lured is the correct word. Yes. But you know, I did a trip which I was fascinated by with not just Salou, but a couple other guys in the area who had, who had traveled along the Lucozi river to, to the Guai and then up towards Zambezi. You know, because I was trying to find. He talks about a certain village which I'm desperate to find to do with Nambia history. But that's another, that's another project. So we actually were following, you know, of course we lazy, we did it in, in vehicles. You know, it's because not even I'm brave enough to walk in some of the areas where he walked nowadays. But the, the, you know, the amazing thing is is it is very possible and to also look at some of the animals that he, he runs across. You know, I've had the privilege of, you know, witnessing, you know, some of the herd movements that he, he mentions, you know, with breeding herds, you know, the mainly female and youngsters herds moving through the Linquasha area, the Somalisa areas. Even though there's much more elephants today, you know, you can still capture some of that because so much a Wangi, it feels familiar. I'm not going to say it's the same. That's, that's not true. But it feels very familiar when you've got his book in hand and off you go. Also, you know, another area where I've spent quite a bit of time where he did a lot of hunting and, and exploring and traveling was in the north of the country, which is where he spends a lot of time from the, the late 1870s through to the, the 1880s, which is the Harare area, you know, the Mazoe Valley, Loma Gundi area, and then all the way through to what is what used to be called Hartley, which today is Chugutu. That, by the way, Hartley is another hunter we have to talk about on this thing. Don't let me forget. He's amazing as well. Interesting. But anyway, the, the. So he goes through all these areas. So I've actually spent quite a bit of time, you know, going to spots where I know he was. Either he camped there or, you know, he did all that sort of stuff. And one of these days I'll do it as a travelog or something. You know, it's. It's come for. Come, come and come and see old Salu because, you know, he had a town named after him which was an area that he also spent a lot of time in. Harare and Chagutu, it's still called Salu, which fascinates me because Salu, you know, in the Zimbabwean government, when they've been doing all the name changes, he's actually not seen as an imperialist. He's seen as an explorer like Livingston. So therefore the name has stayed. I don't know how long that will last, but, you know, change is inevitable.
- [68:15]
Robbie
So, Paul, why did Salou In, I'm assuming 81, decide, okay, hunting. I'm done with this, like, idea of being a professional hunter.
- [68:32]
Paul Hubbard
A provisional, simply. Yeah, so. So if you think about it, and Salou writes about this starting in 1877 in letters to his mom, because just one thing for the source of information, okay. In the, in the National Archives, we have, in Zimbabwe, we have over 300 folios of Salus letters and correspondence throughout his life. The average size of each folio is like that thick. Okay, so I've slowly been reading them through. No biographer of Salus has ever made their way through all of his letters. They always just cherry pick various ones that are quite well known. But I've been slowly working my way through, and it's absolutely fascinating. So one of the things is from 1877, 1878, he starts writing to his mom and he's saying, you know, listen, I'm really thinking of packing it in. The elephants have become increasingly small, scarce. It is harder and harder to find sufficient elephants to harvest to turn a profit. And indeed, in the year, in the season from 1878 to 1879, even though he goes all the way across the Zambezi into Barotsi land and towards angola, he makes £2 profit on his elephant hunting for that year. So the elephant populations had become so scattered and you know, Sulu followed a sort of an ethical thing that we do today as well is that you don't really attack breeding herds. You know, a lot of his previous early experience he had witnessed this and, and found it abhorrent. So he's looking for the males. He would take a large female, don't get me wrong, you know, if she had a female elephant, a large pair of tusks, he was going to take them. So you think in his first year where he knows nothing, okay, he harvests approximately 450 pounds of ivory from his own gun. Okay. And he's then able to trade for another a thousand two hundred pounds of ivory, give or take, which he trades from others. Okay. So that's how in his first year he comes back as a cheeky little 21 year old now and pays his father back and is like, well guess what, I can make a living from this, I'm staying. You know, in his first year he
- [70:50]
Robbie
had 2, 2000 odd pounds close on.
- [70:55]
Paul Hubbard
Yeah. So by the time he's hitting the 18s, you know, within a, within eight years, it's increasingly difficult. And that's partly because the heyday was more popular.
- [71:07]
Robbie
It's also more becoming more popular. I'm sure Saloo is not by himself. I'm sure that because of the heyday there's lots of people now exploring in those areas.
- [71:17]
Paul Hubbard
Oh yes, the big cheese in the ivory industry at that time who facilitate the decimation in my opinion of a lot of the elephant herds in the area. The Four Corners area where Zimbabwe, Zambia, Botswana and Namibia are close to each other. If you put a pin in Vic Falls and you draw a big circle in that area, there's was George west beach at Panama Tenga. West beach was an avid hunter. He was a great friend of Salou throughout his life. You know, Salou and him used to, Salu and him would, you know, have a few drinks at Panama Tenga, then just walk up to see the falls and then come back a couple of days later. You know, like the two of them had that sort of relationship. And along the way Salou, it's very funny when you read his book because he talks about how west beach never lacked for female company no matter where they stopped. And you know, Salu is like a bit taken aback at this. But with west beach he actually equips huge numbers of professional black ivory hunters with guns, modern guns and, and also, you know, whatever else he could get his hands on. And he sends him into the interior to go and hunt ivory year round. And then as the rainy season ended, all these people would congregate at Panama Tenga and hand over their ivory to west beach who would pay them out with cash, trade goods, salted horses, more guns and ammunition, whatever they wanted at the time. That's one thing that's going on by the late 1870s. The second thing you've got going on is the massive explosion as written about by Livingston in the 1860s but only appreciated later on and then it grows even bigger is the expansion of the East African slave trade. And those guys are coming in under warlords. Tippu Tip is the most famous, another one to talk about. But he's coming in and they, these people are in that ghastly grotesque trade of human beings and they, they taking people.
- [73:11]
Robbie
But then they're also interwind, intertwined in this whole thing like intimately. Right?
- [73:17]
Paul Hubbard
Yeah, if you, if you. I think the perfect book on this sort of thing would be titled Blood and Ivory. You know, that's the story of savory in East Africa. It's blood and ivory. And so they would hunt these elephants, load up the slaves to carry the tusks to the coast. So these guys have no compunction in killing every elephant down to, for a milk tush, you know, those tiny. If it had a piece of ivory in its head, it was going to die and be taken to the coast. You know, it's awful when you read about the, the grotesque excesses of this. You know, like if you read David Livingston's last journals, you want to weep at the carnage human and, and animal, you know, and so that also a lot of the elephants, what happens there, because it's not just coming in from the, the East African coast, it's also coming in through Angola, you know, with the Portuguese as they ramp up their interest in trying to connect their two African colonies from east and west to create the, the Portuguese corridor across Central Africa. They are also sending in more and more hunting expeditions. And we don't understand, at least from an English speaking perspective as a historian, we don't understand a lot of what the Portuguese are up to at that time. There's researchers just starting to be published now, which I'm desperate to acquire. Well, that's another story about the, the Portuguese and the, the elephant hunting and the, the trade and you know, all this sort of stuff in the 1870s into the 1880s. Because this is all also enmeshed. Don't forget in the Scramble for Africa. So there's this wave of Europeans also coming into this part of the world and Americans to, to hunt and to, to, to, to look for territory and control of resources. You know, gold and diamonds and elephant ivory and a bit later on, you know, rubber in the, in Central Africa. Those are what people think of, of Africa. You know, the history, the culture, the people be damned. That's what Africa was to the outside world. And so Salou is also a counterweight to a lot of this. When he changed, he very publicly and dramatically changes his career as well. Like he announces it when he's back in London. I'm no longer. When, when his book comes out in 1881, he's like, there's no point in going hunting of elephant anymore in Africa as a profession. He makes it very public. And then this is also, it's not quite his road to Damascus moment where he becomes this out and out conservationist as we think of it today. But this starts the next phase of his career as a hunter, as a hunter, conservationist, as someone who now starts to see the need to limit, to control, to introduce ethics, to introduce all this sort of stuff as a hunter in Africa. Because we're starting to see people wanting to do expeditions, safaris as we think of them today. I don't know if we'll get to him today. I've got as much time as you want, but you know, you know, everyone always knows old Teddy Roosevelt's expedition and the story with him in Sulu, which is something I do want to touch on if we get time because I have a very different take on that.
- [76:16]
Robbie
I think what we should do is we should make a part two bedrift Salu.
- [76:20]
Paul Hubbard
Yes, I think so.
- [76:21]
Robbie
And I should have known that by the, when I started this discussion series with you, Paul Hubbard, that we should just say, okay, this is Salu. How many parts is Salu going to be? How many parts is Baldwin going to be? How many parts is Tippertoo going to be?
- [76:36]
Paul Hubbard
Yeah, so, so anyway, so Salou, what happens is he's talking about the slaughter of the elephant populations. You know, he's talking to him about his mom. And then he has, he's talking about
- [76:45]
Robbie
this in his journals, in that book that you just described, the first publish. He talks about the lack of elephants.
- [76:53]
Paul Hubbard
Yes. And you know, he talks about it right towards the end here. Sorry, I was just, I was looking, I put a bookmark and then I was silly and dropped it and all the rest of it. But you know, he actually does talk about it in the forward. Sorry, I don't know why I was looking at the back of it. But he does talk about it a little bit. But it's in his follow up book which is again I, I, which is the travel and adventure where he really makes it public. But it's not just in his books. You know, one of the things when you're also asking about Sulu and elephant hunting, as he's seen a dwindling elephant population, he still wants to stay in Africa in the 1870s. So what he also starts doing is writing and selling articles to various nature journals in Europe, especially the uk. He was a committed correspondent for the field, which to me is one of the most fantastic nature journals in the world. You know, I love reading it. I can read an issue from 100 years ago and read the current one. Always interesting stuff in there. So a lot of Salus first book is polished up versions of those articles which he would post in and they'd pay him a bit of money for that. And he, when he, when he's in the, the lead up to the publication of his first book, A Hunter's Wanderings in Africa in 1881, nobody has a lot of confidence in it. You know, it's his first ever book. They only print a thousand copies, so if you're looking for a first edition, you, you've probably only got a pool of less than 500. Okay. Because so many are in libraries and archives, you know, they all buy up the first editions and then they, they're not around. Sure. So if you own a first edition of A Hunter's Wanderings in Africa, well done. You know, I, it's, it's, I have a second edition somewhere here, but I only ever pull out the reprints when I'm doing work, you know, just for.
- [78:37]
Robbie
Have you ever come across a first edition for sale?
- [78:40]
Paul Hubbard
Yes, yes, I valued one for a friend who didn't know what he had.
- [78:45]
Robbie
What was the valuation on that first edition?
- [78:47]
Paul Hubbard
For the, for that. Because the COVID was a bit damaged. It was only $5,000.
- [78:57]
Robbie
If the COVID wasn't damaged, I'd probably,
- [79:01]
Paul Hubbard
you know, at auction. For a committed, you know, someone who really is passionate stuff, he could probably safely aim for 7,000 plus, you know, if you get a signed one. Oh boy, you can, you can write your chair. You just write the number and they'll give you money. I know a couple of guys who are like that. You know, the most valuable of his books to me is Extra actually his book on North America, you know, the, the because there's very few of those ever published. And it's a tiny little book about him hunting up in Canada and North America. You know, he goes through close to what is Yosemite today and you know, all throughout that part of the world as well. You know, from Canada across into the States and back. When does he do this? Oh, that's in, that comes out in 1908 if I recall correctly. You know, and that one, I don't know where I've put my one as well. Saloo writes nine books. Everyone always focuses on the famous four, which are all his Africa ones, but he actually writes books about hunting in Asia, hunting in North America and hunting in Europe as well. Nobody ever talks about those. I don't know where I've put my copies, they're in the office. So. So, you know. But his first book, when it comes out, he also gives a lot of talks because he sees a way, he's a clever guy as Salud. He sees a way to take that book and use it as a business card. So he sets himself up as a modern conservationist in several ways. Okay, and when I say conservationist equated to hunter. Okay. So first thing he does is he gets approached and then he starts approaching them. But he gets approached by a couple of the museums in England at that time who say, hey, we would love some specimens from that part of the world and we'll pay you X per specimen that you can land here. We want skins, we want skulls, we want skeletons, etc. Etc. So he starts, okay, okay, I could do that. You know, as long as you're not asking for 150 pound tusk. Yeah, I could do that. Yeah, yeah. The sick and, and then he, he makes it very clear that he's only interested in doing this if it's for education and the, the, the erudition of the general public, as he puts it in a letter. So, so that's also an important thing to him is that, you know, he's going to carry on killing things, but it's for a greater purpose now.
- [81:20]
Robbie
It's for a different purpose now. It's not for money making purposes. It's, he's, his, his philosophy and ethics have changed to something that's bigger.
- [81:29]
Paul Hubbard
Absolutely. And the paycheck is part of the, part of the journey, but it's, it's for him to survive because, you know, being last born in the sun, he doesn't inherit much wealth either. He's got to become more self made. You know, his father still looks after him, but, you know, the first son gets the most. So the other thing is that's the first thing that happens. Second thing is he gets asked by so many people, can you take me there? Can you lead us on a safari? I want to go and shoot here. I will pay you for your advice. I want to go on an expedition. I will pay you for your advice, you know, because you can't necessarily take me because I want to go to Tanganyika, but, you know, Africa. Tell us about it. And so he very quickly reinvents himself as. I wouldn't call him a travel agent, but certainly as a. As an expert on. On safari hunting safaris in Africa, because nobody's interested in the photographic. The camera is always there, but they come in here to shoot and to, to take animals and birds and all sorts at the time. So you can also look at this as incredibly extractive. But at the same time, in the philosophy of the era, it was, it was. I'm not trying to justify it, but it is, you know, this, this consumptive tourism that still sustains us to this day.
- [82:46]
Robbie
Yeah, yeah.
- [82:47]
Paul Hubbard
In our industry as well. So there's.
- [82:49]
Robbie
And this is in the 1880s, 1890s,
- [82:52]
Paul Hubbard
or just like the 1880s, because his next career now is for. For basically eight years, 1881-1889, where he sets himself up in this. And then he comes back here to southern Africa and he begins hunting, but now with a purpose. He also travels, he brings with several people who like paying him as clients to go on these expeditions. And, you know, he makes it very clear that he's very clever because he makes it very clear that we're also out here collecting. So I'm going to be doing shooting as well because we need xyz and you're gonna get to hunt this and this and this and. And then off we go. So, you know, one of the things is, is he's also able to. To do this for the museums because of something very important that I, I, you know, I'm very privileged to be involved with helping with some of the guides, training from my perspectives as history and storytelling and, you know, all this sort of stuff. One of the things I always say to them, even, even as a hunter, is your data collection is always very important. Your, Your understanding of the, the animals, your understanding of the environment. What you also report back, you know, with the monitoring of, of trophies and stuff like that is hugely important data. And Salu proves this as early as he was, because in his book, he's not just talking about the. The. Which he does so well. And I can't tell the stories, you know, if you want to read about Salus hunting stories in specifics, read his books. He tells the stories better than anyone, you know, but what he also does is throughout his book are scattered with notes about the behavior, the activities, the scientific debates about some of these animals to which he was a regular contributor. So that he's also. That's why the museums start approaching him, because they realize that this guy knows his stuff. He's not just there blowing holes in things. He studied them, he understands them. He's added new knowledge. When you look at a list of Salus publications, not his book, but where he's contributing stuff on notes on taxonomy, notes on behavior. And also like he's one of the first to recognize different species of giraffe. He's also one of the first to recognize that there's only a couple of species of rhino. Whereas before him it was thought that there were up to 12 different species of rhino in southern Africa. And I always joke it's because usually one was running away from you and one was trying to run you over, you know, that you had a very different confuciation. But you know, Salu Salou also shows his mettle as a proper hunter should that he's a naturalist as well, you know, is that he understands these, these creatures, their environment, and he also understands how to hunt them. And that that's what makes a true hunter, in my opinion. And many of the greatest hunters I know are that, you know, they know more about it than any scientist than any researcher because they've looked.
- [85:39]
Robbie
Well, it's just time spelt spent in the field, right, that, that there's no substitute for it. There's no substitute for being boots on the ground, walking every single day and understanding behavior and animals and whatnot. So absolutely.
- [85:53]
Paul Hubbard
I think what we should do. Go ahead. No, no, sorry. I was just going to say, you know, it's also combined with all that knowledge was actually putting it down. You know, this is a constant thing that I. Correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Put it into. Even if you write a little WhatsApp message, I tell some of these hunters, just make sure there's a record of it. Subway of this amazing thing that you've seen. Because, you know, I have it all the time. I say, oh geez, I just saw a painted dog doing this or a line do this and say, oh no, they do it all the time in this area. And I'm like, well, nobody knows that. You read the Guidebook. You read the, you know, you know it. So put it, write it up. Because it's important we learn because of that, because we haven't spent five years in this area and all that.
- [86:29]
Robbie
Yeah.
- [86:29]
Paul Hubbard
And you know, one of the, the other things that I just want to say when we talk about why does he change this as well is, you know, Salou also, with his change from just being a full time elephant hunter into being one of these, these museum collectors being paid for it and all the rest of it is he also. It's part of the transformation of Victorian England society at that time where there's a rising middle class with money, leisure and education who want to know more about the world and through. It's. It's hard for us to appreciate today. Okay, but something that I want to credit Sulu with and then maybe we do a part two about this aspect.
- [87:09]
Robbie
Oh no, we're definitely doing a part
- [87:10]
Paul Hubbard
two is, you know, with, with Salou is the fact that he was bringing back all these trophies, whether they were butterflies, mammals, birds, etc. It opened up the rest of the world to this, this Victorian population. And one of the things that happens and that you can draw direct lines from it and I may be overstating my case here a little bit, but it awakens an interest in conservation of the natural world by learning about these creatures, that they exist alongside us. And when combined with the Christian morality, especially the rise of the evangelical movement in Europe at the time that there's this duty taken from the book of Genesis that these creatures are ours, we own them according to God, but we also have to look after them and where they live. And so you see the rise of these conservation movements of which Salou was an integral founder in many cases, and not just in Europe, but across Africa and in America. And you know, if you want a teaser is, I have copies of the letters for another episode where him and a young member of the New York Congress called Teddy Roosevelt are chatting to each other about what should we do about conserving the environment in North America. And when that young man becomes president, probably the youngest president America is ever going to have, if current trends are to be followed. You know, when he becomes president in his first year, 230 million acres of the United States are declared protected land, to many of which Salou had traveled over and talked about with his friend about the need to conserve them.
- [88:58]
Robbie
Well, let's end it there and do part two about his expeditions. That's here about the Teddy Roosevelt story in Africa and then let's talk about his North American influence because I think, again, nobody knows. I don't think. I Bet you poll 10 people, did Salou ever step foot in America?
- [89:18]
Paul Hubbard
Yeah.
- [89:20]
Robbie
Nine out of 10 would say no. He's an African guy.
- [89:24]
Paul Hubbard
Yeah. No. Well, that's it. And yeah, he's honestly, this is my favorite part of the story is the next one coming up. As much as I love his life in Africa, having been to some of the places he went to in the States, which is another one you can do if you want to go on, you know, safari with Suku, I also have that sort of stuff on me and I did, did a little bit of it when I visited the States the last time.
- [89:45]
Robbie
Amazing.
- [89:46]
Paul Hubbard
And to me, this is where his massive influence really, really comes in, is inspiration in conservation. That is the second half of Salou's life.
- [89:57]
Robbie
Jeez. All right, well, stay tuned for part two, buddy.
- [90:01]
Paul Hubbard
Well, thanks for having me on again, man. I really appreciate it. It's always a pleasure.
- [90:06]
Robbie
Well, that's it for today. Appreciate you listening. As always, Leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.