Episode 638 - Oscar Goodman || Proving The #PROOF

Summary

The Origins Foundation Podcast

Episode 638 – Oscar Goodman || Proving The #PROOF
Date: April 16, 2026
Host: The Origins Foundation
Guest: Oscar Goodman, Co-Founder of Wild Vision

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Overview

This episode dives into a groundbreaking collaborative project between The Origins Foundation and Oscar Goodman, co-founder of Wild Vision. The central theme is the critical need to generate and communicate scientific "proof" regarding how the abandonment of hunting blocks impacts habitat and wildlife, particularly in Africa. The discussion uses a pioneering case study from Tanzania to confront prominent anti-hunting narratives, which claim abandoned hunting lands either recover or remain unchanged. Oscar and the host explore the technical journey of using satellite imagery and AI analytics to reveal the stark reality of habitat loss post-hunting, aiming to provide hard data that can shape the conservation narrative.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Wild Vision: Mapping and Hunting Intelligence

• Introduction to Wild Vision
  • Oscar Goodman explains Wild Vision as a mapping and hunting intelligence platform, providing actionable data for hunters to optimize their time in the field and to contribute to wildlife management.
  • Quote: "Wild Vision is a mapping and hunting intelligence platform for hunting here in New Zealand and shortly in North America. We provide simple insights into where and when to take the hunts...all backed up with some incredible data and analysis stuff, which is pretty cool." – Oscar Goodman [03:42]
• Balancing Tradition and Technology
  • Discussion of community pushback: some hunters fear tech makes hunting 'too easy.'
  • Oscar underscores their dual role: Enhancing trophy hunts and supporting management culls, especially the need to control spikes in New Zealand’s deer and tar populations.
  • Quote: "We’ve got these awesome alpine areas that take two, three, four, five days to get into...but then there’s also a spike in animals, mainly female herds, that we need to control." – Oscar Goodman [05:21]

2. Genesis of “THE PROOF” Project

• Origin of the Collaboration
  • Host’s vision to counter anti-hunting narratives with data: “I had this vision of creating a technology that could prove the changes in habitat that occur when hunting leaves an area...how can I prove that the habitat in that place either improved or disintegrated due to an inflection point?” [00:29]
  • Oscar joined, bringing technical expertise, leading to the trial project in Tanzania.
• Analytical and Communication Challenges
  • The project required robust analysis (satellite data across 20 years) and clear visual communication, balancing technical accuracy with accessible storytelling.
  • Quote: "There’s an analysis problem and then there’s a communication problem that need to be solved...we ended up having to do both hand in hand." – Oscar Goodman [13:39]

3. Satellite Analysis: Untangling the Truth

• Technical Approach
  • Multiple satellite sources (Landsat 5, 7, Sentinel) required due to changing resolutions; use of NDVI (Normalized Difference Vegetation Index) to measure greenness and thus land cover changes.
  • Challenges included differing resolutions, distinguishing between seasonal/annual changes and true long-term habitat conversion, and identifying farmland versus native “bare ground.”
  • Quote: "Firstly, you have to get the data...because it's a 20 year period and there's different satellites that go up with different resolutions over that time." – Oscar Goodman [14:48]
• Normalization and Verification
  • Solution: Calculating annual averages, focusing on the bottom 30% of NDVI changes as indicative of conversion (from savannah to agriculture). Ground-truthing with actual satellite imagery overlays.
  • Quote: "We ended up taking an average across the entire year...then we would take the bottom 30%...and then we account that as okay or that is changed land." – Oscar Goodman [16:53]
• Visual & Statistical Outcomes
  • PT East (abandoned block) experienced massive conversion after hunting ended (~7%→66% of pixels showing change from 2012-2025).
  • PT West (continues to be hunted) showed virtually no change since 2012.
  • Quote: "It went from 7.2% change in 2006 to 2012 and then went to 66% change from 2012 to 2025." – Host [22:57]
  • Clear, scientific evidence directly contradicts claims by anti-hunting groups that abandonment leads to natural recovery.

4. Challenging the Narrative: Social Media and Field Reality

• Debunking Misinformation
  • Host reads (25:04) from a viral anti-hunting post denying agricultural takeover of abandoned concessions, then contrasts it with their concrete findings.
  • Quote: "There is zero in capital letters evidence that cornfields have replaced wildlife. Once again, another false claim." – [Host reading from post, 24:36]
  • Oscar: "It's pretty obvious here that there's been some quite serious change." [25:04]
• Real-World Observations
  • Neighboring block operator (Mike Angelides) describes a visible boundary between intact wildlife habitat and converted farmland, with even natural indicators (like tsetse flies) highlighting habitat health.

5. Science-to-Action: Expanding Proof

• Scalability
  • Having built the analytical pipeline, Oscar can now rapidly analyze additional hunting blocks with new geospatial files (KMZs).
  • Quote: "If I give you a new kmz, that's all you need, right?" – Host
    "Yeah. So all I need is a new kmz and then I can just run the pipeline..." – Oscar Goodman [34:11]
• Future Directions
  • Ambition to scale to all affected African hunting concessions (potentially 115+).
  • Calls for collaboration from Tanzanian operators to submit new blocks for analysis.

6. Vision for Enhanced Field Documentation

• Transect Project Proposal
  • Inspired by Mike Fay’s “Mega Transect,” the host proposes a comparative biodiversity walk across the preserved (hunted) and abandoned blocks, using citizen-science tools like the Merlin birding app to augment habitat data with on-the-ground species counts.
  • Quote: "Let's start in Pee west and just take two days of walking across...and then two more days of walking to PD east and document things...Another piece of data to show how bird diversity has changed." – Host [36:03]
  • Oscar expresses personal enthusiasm for participating: "I've got some pretty good legs on me." [37:51]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Importance of Timely Proof:
  "I think it's not only important. I think it's vital. I think it's just in time." – Host [00:53]

• On Satellite Analysis Realities:
  "If it was one year and that was last year, it'd be super simple...But because it's the past 20 years, you have to use multiple satellites." – Oscar Goodman [15:11]

• On Contradicting Anti-Hunting Claims:
  "It's the data that I wanted...the beautiful thing about it from a science perspective is you got the PT west block right next to the PT east block..." – Host [31:54]

• On App Accessibility:
  "It's available on iOS, so Apple, right now and we've just launched on Android on Monday." – Oscar Goodman [09:59]

• On Communication Challenge:
  "There’s an analysis problem and then there’s a communication problem that need to be solved..." – Oscar Goodman [13:39]

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Important Timestamps

• 03:42 – Oscar introduces Wild Vision and its philosophy
• 05:21 – Balancing hunting heritage with management needs
• 13:39 – Identifying analysis vs. communication challenges
• 15:11 – Discussing satellite data complexities
• 16:53 – NDVI workflow and establishing quantitative change
• 22:57 – Statistic: Change jumps from 7% to 66% post-hunting
• 24:36–25:11 – Reading and refuting viral anti-hunting claims
• 30:52 – Natural vs. anthropogenic changes (fire, river, farming)
• 34:11 – Oscar confirms pipeline can scale to additional blocks
• 36:03–37:51 – Proposal for a biodiversity transect study
• 38:55 – Where to find/download Wild Vision

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Where to Find More

• Wild Vision: wildvisionnz.com, App Store, Play Store, Instagram @wildvisionhunt [38:55]
• Contact: Tanzanian operators encouraged to submit new KMZs for analysis.

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Tone & Final Thoughts

This candid, technically rich conversation mixes determined skepticism toward anti-hunting dogma with an engineer’s clarity and a conservationist’s urgency. The hosts pull no punches: science and lived experience must reshape the narrative. The “#PROOF” isn’t just data—it’s the opening salvo in a movement to ground wildlife management and policy in hard evidence.

Closing Quote:
"It's the kind of data that I wanted...the data that just proves it. Now we just need to publish it in a peer-reviewed article, and then let the world know about it." – Host [39:10]

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Oscar Goodman is the co founder of Wild Vision in New Zealand. Wild Vision is a new sort of AI technology to help hunters figure out where animals are, what watersheds to attack. More specifically around New Zealand's tar and deer population reduction strategies. Just makes you a better hunter is what he's looking for. Well, Oscar and I connected because I had this vision of creating a technology that could prove the changes in habitat that occur when hunting leaves an area. Specifically in Africa, hunting blocks are abandoned all the time or hunting comes into areas all the time. And so how can I prove that the habitat in that place either improved or disintegrated due to an inflection point? Well, that's where Oscar came in. And so we've got this podcast specifically talking about what we have built in a hunting block in Tanzania as an example. So enjoy. So five years ago, there was a reason why I started this movement. And the truth then is the truth now that we need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around what we do and who we are. There's a sweet spot with a gun, you know, too heavy and it's a burden to walk with. Too light and you whipping it. Why is the project so important to the hunting community? It's, it's a. I think it's not only important, I think it's. I think it's vital. I think it's. It's just in time.

[C]

It's like snakes and ladders. You guys are climbing the ladder and then somebody does something stupid and you just slide down.

[B]

That is such an amazing analogy. Snakes and ladders.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, ivory in my opinion was the plastic of its age. Okay.

[C]

The expenses were going up. It goes a long way with families. We are families that do need it.

[B]

Let me close this door because I have a little wiener dog. What? You are. You're laughing because I said wiener.

[C]

I'm really glad you finished the sentence out.

[B]

I'm sorry, the first happen. What are we doing here today? You're telling the whole world. I do a terrible, terrible job typically of introducing people. So I'm going to do a better job today of introducing you, Oscar Goodman. Wild Vision New Zealand. Is it Wild Vision New Zealand or just Wild Vision?

[C]

Just Wild Vision, yeah.

[B]

Wild Vision. Out of New Zealand.

[C]

Out of New Zealand.

[B]

Welcome to the Origins foundation podcast, my man.

[C]

Thank you. It's good to be here.

[B]

I'm happy to have you on here specifically because of the cool project that we have now started. I actually showed the operator out of PD west the design and the outcomes, I think two or three days ago, and he loved it.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, that's good. That's good. That's what we like to hear.

[B]

So tell people about Wild Vision. What is this? What made you decide that this is something that you wanted to get involved in?

[C]

Yep. So Wild Vision is a mapping and hunting intelligence platform for hunting here in New Zealand and shortly in North America. We provide simple insights into where and when to take the hunts down to what catchment to look into or what base to look at. All backed up with some incredible data and analysis stuff, which is pretty cool. I got into it from. I was pretty much just working full time as a design engineer in Christchurch and really wanted to maximize the time I had in the field. I was really busy, I didn't have much time, so wanted to make sure that when I was hunting, I was hunting in the right spot. I didn't have the time for trial and error, so I just had to make it count. So that started off a two year journey of going full time into development, learning how to do all the software and stuff like that and then in the process became a hunting guide and now travel the world guiding and doing what I love.

[B]

Do you think that there's an element here? Because I can already hear people. There's sort of like a sector of the hunting community is like, we don't want anything to become easier. Yeah. Kind of hunting. And you are obviously creating a product that's like, oh, I don't even have to. I don't have to do much work. I just have to figure something out and I go out for the afternoon and get what I need to do versus spending typically 3, 4, 5 days.

[C]

100%. There's two parts to it. Right. So here in New Zealand we've got, we've got these awesome alpine areas that take two, three, four, five days to get into. Where predominantly you're trophy hunting, you might be taking out some management animals at the same time, but predominantly you're looking for a large old male to take out and you do those big missions and you put in the effort and you hope to come out with the rewards, so we help with that. But then there's also the thing in New Zealand where there is a spike in animals, deer and tar, mainly female herds that we need to control.

[B]

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[C]

With wild vision, we can put the power into the hunter's hand and say this is where the animals are right now. You can hunt them in this way and if you take out the females, then that's good for the herd and good for the land. So yeah, there's two ways about it. I mean, we've got to take out more animals in New Zealand to make things good for everyone. So I know it.

[B]

Obviously a lot of the work that you do is proprietary, but you're just taking a bunch of data and sort of synthesizing it into an algorithm. It's like climate and where the sun is sort of a south facing slope that gets warmer earlier. Those kinds of things.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. So it's just gonna be yes.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, that's the answer.

[C]

So, you know, hunters, we all know what animals do under different things under different conditions. So from that you can.

[B]

Is that just intuition that you built into the equations and the algorithms or did you do research into animal behavior? Both.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

The answer is yes. Yes, Rob.

[C]

Yes. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yes, yes.

[B]

So Wild Vision is available right now. So if you went to, you could download it as an app, correct?

[C]

Yes. So it's available on iOS, so apple right now and we've just launched on Android on Monday.

[B]

Yeah, a couple of days ago. I thought I saw.

[C]

So it's available everywhere to be downloaded on any mobile device.

[B]

And this is primarily right now. New Zealand. New Zealand landscape. Figure out where you want to hunt, how you want to hunt, where potentially animals are. Is it a free platform or is somebody buying access to the information on an annual or monthly basis?

[C]

So it's. The Insights are available just in New Zealand at the moment, but you can use the mapping in New Zealand, Australia and the US and Canada. And it's a subscription pricing model. Yeah, Monthly subscription. What's. It's. Oh, I think it's fairly reasonable. In New Zealand it's 4.99amonth or 49.99 a year.

[B]

Okay. Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So about. I don't even know when we started talking, Oscar. Maybe 18 months ago.

[C]

Yeah. December 2024, maybe November, I think I started in January 25th. Okay. On this PTS project.

[B]

And I put out a call then for. I needed some GIS specialists to help me with an idea. And you're like, I'm not a GIS specialist, but I think I can help you. And I said, okay, let's talk a little bit more. And you obviously offered something that I was like, man, I don't know if I know I need this. So my idea was this. My idea was there's lots of rhetoric and narrative around hunting being not good for wildlife. Or the counter, from our perspective is if you ban hunting, something's gonna happen more often than not, habitat is gonna change. And so I was interested in figuring out a way to use satellite imagery to prove that that actually happens. And so I was looking for a way to get satellite imagery in a place where we know an inflection point in time, that is this hunting block got abandoned here. And then be able to compare statistically a period of time before an inflection point and a period of time after the inflection point. And go. There is a statistical difference in habitat as a result of change, mainly probably due to farmland or slash and burn agriculture. And that's what I wanted. And so you came to the table and were like, man, I think we can do this. And obviously I was a very ambitious individual and I was like, well, I want to do it for all of Africa. And we're like, okay, we'll just like slow your horses for a second and let's just pick like one area. One area. And so before we talk about the area when, when I've told you about this, well, what did we do? Like, what did you guys decide? Like this is the, the, the way that we were going to move forward with this.

[C]

So what we saw was there's a analysis problem and then there's a communication problem that need to be solved. If we did the analysis, that would be great. But how do you turn that into something that can actually, you can derive any insight from? So, yeah, two parts to the project that we saw needed to be done there was the strict analysis of the area and the optimization of how we analyzed it to get results that match what actually happened and then the communication of that. So we ended up having to do both hand in hand to get that all working. Right. But yeah, we ended up getting there.

[B]

But the analysis we had a lot of sort of, you know, I thought it would be fairly straightforward, right. Let's just take LANDSAP imagery or sentinel imagery and let's just look at the change over time and plot that change over time. Just like a Google Earth image kind of thing. But it wasn't quite that simple.

[C]

No, you have to use. So firstly, you have to get the data which, because it's a 20 year period and there's different satellites that go up with different resolutions over that time, isn't as straightforward as it seems. If you were to just take.

[B]

We want a resolution issue, we've got a resolution issue. Resolution changes over time, right?

[C]

Over time, yeah. So if it was one year and that was last year, it'll be super simple. Or the past four years, super simple project. But because it's the past 20 years, you have to use multiple satellites. And then there is the problem of, okay, so how do you actually analyze what is, what is unchanged and what is changed and what counts as that? So we used something called NDVI analysis, Normalized difference vegetation indices. And that analyzes how green some, you know, landscape is.

[B]

So right, so it's green savannah green grassland versus a bare dirt for farm beard dirt.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So and the problem with that we

[C]

ran into was so in a native savannah landscape, there's actually quite a lot of beer dirt. So you know how much beer dirt is acceptable. So yeah, there's a few problems there that we had to work around.

[B]

We also felt, we also had issues that depending on the time of the year, they were growing stuff on the farmland, which is green.

[C]

Yeah. Yes, they were growing stuff. And then we'd have wet years and dry years and the wet years obviously would be a lot greener than the dry years. So how do you account for that difference?

[B]

Yeah, so what have we. What hap. How did we. How do we normalize all these things? Those three factors, climates, different types of the years, what do we do?

[C]

So we ended up taking a average across the entire year of the ndvi and then for each pixel, and then we would take the bottom 30% and we. So, so we take the change and then we take the bottom 30%. So if, if the bottom 30% of what has changed and then we account that as okay or that is changed land, we're going to account for that.

[B]

Right.

[C]

And, and then to test that, we went and tied that up against the satellite view. So now we have the visual overlay on top of the satellite view of, you know, satellite is a picture of what's changed or what the land looks like now. So that then became accurate.

[B]

And so one of the. So what we did was we started with. So not many people may not know this, but in Tanzania around the Cecil the lion incident, which happened in 2015, a lot of these GMA hunting blocks in Tanzania, most of them had a lion tag associated with them. And so once the lion imports were shut down from a US perspective, a lot of these hunting blocks were abandoned. Nobody could afford the actual license, government block fee for these areas. Now those on the other side, the anti hunting side, would say that, oh, the guys had raped and pillaged these lands, there was no game left anyway, that's why they abandoned them. But it was all tied to, it was all tied to the, the lion tag, unfortunately, because that is the one that had the most cost. Like a lion is sold for $75,000, $80,000 and it would make a. A season for an operator. And so this block specifically. So we got a KMZ file of a block called PT East. PT east is in Tanzania. It's a long sort of rectangular block. And it was a hunt. It was hunted from 2000 to 2012. And if I remember correctly, Oscar, we Only started in 2016 in getting Landsat imagery. You said there was something wrong with the imagery before 20 2006, right? Not 2016, 2006.

[C]

So we've got, we've got imagery from 2004, I think, all the way through to 2025. It's just we're using Landsat 5 or 7 for the first chunk, Landsat 7 for next and Sentinel for last. And Landsat 7 has imagery era where it just misses a bit.

[B]

Another hurdle in dealing with this thing. So what we wanted to do and then the beauty about Pteast is in 2010, I believe, if I remember correctly, on my timeline, 2010, the hunters, that was Robinhood Safari's left, 2011, it got put up for auction. 2012, it was not reassigned to anybody. Nobody wanted the block. And from 2012 it's been abandoned. And the data. And so that's our inflection point. So we have this six year period prior to 2012 and then we have this period from 2012 to 2026. Today, 2025 was when the analysis occurred to show changing. The other thing that we have is next. Right next door to it is PT West. And Mike Angelides at Safari Royal Tanzania runs PT West. He's run PT west for forever. He's been there for I think 25 years or 30 years. And he's done some videos like recently of him crossing from PT east, which if you look at PTE from a Google Earth image today, where he drives in, it's just like farmland everywhere. There's no habitat left. And then he crosses and there's no tsetse flies. But as soon as he hits the river and it goes across the river, he gets hit by tsetse flies immediately. And. Which is a symbol of habitat and wildlife and whatnot. But it's anecdotal. There's no, like, scientific evidence to show like the change between PT east and PT West. And PT west has been hunted since 2000. Let's use 2006 again or 2004 all the way through today. And visually, I know this is a podcast, but we can't show like visually the difference. And I don't know if you looked at this or not and explored this. But when I explored it and you look at pts and I've actually got it up on my computer right now, so I'll be able to play with it. You probably won't be able to pay with it. From 2006 to 2012 is when the actual change, any change, actually happened in PT West Block from 2012. If I go from 2012 to today, there is very, very little change. Okay. And then if you do the same comparison for PTE. So 2006 to 2012, I'm going to go here, I'm going to go PTE. I'm going to go overall summary. Actually I'll go Savannah to farmer conversion gain high change polygons, computing statistics. 7.2% of the pixels are changed now. So then that's 7.2. So I'll go. And then 2025 to 2011, I'll do the same computing statistics. So it went from 7.2% change in 2006 to 2012 and then went to 66% change from 2012 to 2025.

[C]

It's a fair amount, isn't it?

[B]

It's what we wanted. It's like the proof that we wanted. And now I'm going to dig in my phone quickly. Oh, it's right here. I'm going to show you the screen. Whoever's watching this on YouTube will be able to see it, but I'm going to. This is a screenshot that I made off of Facebook and I'll just read it to you. Okay. Must read via Peter Cat. Well, well, here we go again. Trophy hunters and their friends claim that if lands are not given to trophy hunting organizations, they will revert. They will revert to agriculture with strongly negative consequences for wildlife. Sound familiar? Once again, there is not one iota of truth in such claims. One strong level of truth should be should come from Tanzania, where 110 of 154 hunting concessions were made redundant as the operators were no longer interested in renewing their leases. The lucrative game had already been shot out, is what they say, so that the local communities invade those lands with their tractors and plows. There is no such evidence. Despite many years of hunting companies abandoning their land. There is zero in capital letters evidence that cornfields have replaced wildlife. Once again, another false claim that has been made without any substance. Basic rule of thumb, don't believe anything trophy hunters tell you. You guys in government listening here?

[C]

I mean, it's pretty obvious here that there's been some quite serious change.

[B]

And what's Interesting is when I was talking to Mike Angelides, if you go further south, and again, people are, you know, you're listening to this podcast and you don't have the visuals of what I'm showing you, but if you look at that southern, there's a little. So in this PTE block, there's three areas that have changed significantly. And these areas have changed are because they're right up close to other farmland already. It's just an expansion of farmland into the area. If you look at that bottom polygon, do you notice all of that farmland underneath it, which is why it's expanded up into that polygon. If you look to the west, you see there's almost like a line, a definitive line there where the farmer hasn't creeped in. That's another gain reserve right there. And then the other thing that was super interesting is that in the middle of PT. East, all of those areas that we feel like there's no change has actually happened. The Tanzanian government has just declared that a forest reserve.

[C]

Oh, wow.

[B]

So it's almost like they've got a boundary now, and that's why we're seeing what we're seeing. Oscar, give me an idea. Is there a reason why we. We. We sort of formed a boundary there versus going all the way exploring that whole block, or is it we just didn't see the change in that sort of middle block where it is the forest, the forest reserve nowadays.

[C]

So what happens because of the nature of savannah versus the farmland and the bare ground in the savannah? Naturally, when we run an NDBI analysis over the whole block, we get a lot of noise which isn't reflective of what's actually happening. So we went and cross referenced all of our results for the whole area against satellite imagery and found that through that middle part, there was no change. But the NDVI analysis, because of the noise, was saying that there's change in areas where there isn't. So we decided for communication sake, to take out the middle part because.

[B]

But it's so clear when you look at that middle part, there's no. There's no farm blocks at all. Yeah, all fairly intact. There's one or two areas that, you know, have. Have somebody has, like, walked in and done a little bit of an expansion in it, but other than that, it's all fairly, fairly intact, you know.

[C]

Yeah. And what would happen is largely the rivers would get identified as chain land, because exactly what would. From a dry year to a wet year, or count that or a wet year to a dry Year, it would count that as change.

[B]

Where.

[C]

That's just what's happening naturally.

[B]

Do you think that you were going to get this kind of result? Look, I was hoping for it. But you're the engineer.

[C]

Well, yes, because when you look at the satellite change, like, you know, the satellite imagery over time, it's. That's showing a change and then we, the, then you can just back that up with data, which is what we've done. So initially we, you know, we, we set out to say, okay, well is there any change in the area? And can confirm that with satellite imagery. And then, okay, well, how much change has happened and where, where exactly has it happened? And that's where we use the, the data to be able to communicate that a lot easier.

[B]

It's so, again, it's so interesting how these areas really reflect sort of the boundary conditions of these places. Right. It's almost like from 2006 to 2012, the years that somebody was still in the area, very little. Again, I'm not looking at a satellite image, I'm looking at the analysis. There's very little incursion. And honestly, when you look at that, the yellow pixels that we show as change show way on the west side of the boundary. Remind me again, what's the difference between a blue and a yellow pixel?

[C]

So blows gain, right?

[B]

Change, like come back. So definitely growth happening. Right? There's maybe. And that's another analysis that we should actually look at. Like from 2006 to 2012, how much blue pixels do we have? Right. Because from 2000, from 2011 to 2025, I don't see hardly any blue pixels at all.

[C]

Right.

[B]

It's just a sea of bloody yellow pixels, which is the loss.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So there's definitely more blue than yellow in. And obviously there's going to be natural change. That's the other thing that we've got to consider. Right. In a natural system, you're going to have change. There's fire happening. Fire in the system's gonna wipe out a bunch of grass, a bunch of trees that's gonna identify as bare ground.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And what I find is really interesting now is. So hunting did stop in 2010. Correct.

[B]

Hunting did stop in 2010. Correct.

[C]

And then the land was made available in 2012.

[B]

Well, I think what happened was people started realizing over that sort of there might have been still somebody coming in in 2010, 2011, like looking at the block, somebody being present. But from 2011 onwards, like those 12 months is really when the abandonment occurred.

[C]

And that's when that first significant change

[B]

was people started moving in and like, oh, there's nobody here. We could do what we want. Nobody's kicking us off. Nobody's causing. Calling the cops or the old tower or anything like that to come in. So,

[C]

yeah, that's really interesting.

[B]

It's the kind of. It's the data that I wanted. Right. It's really, really, really. The data that. Yeah, it just proves it. Right. And we've got, again, the beautiful thing about it from a science perspective is you got the PT west block right next to the PT east block and just showing in PT West. PT west lost again, fires and whatnot. And what Mike noticed in that 2006-2012 period is those places he said are big open plains. You need somebody obviously, in the ground. Because when you look at, if you, if you zoom in these, these areas that are being identified as change areas are all along river systems. The vast majority of them are all along river systems in the west. Have you looked at that?

[C]

They're all along river systems, apart from that top northeast corner. Yeah, yeah. Which is cool.

[B]

Yeah. It's like, again, for the very, very first time, we now have this data. And now it's a matter of like, this is one block. Right. So according to that Facebook post, there's 115 of these.

[C]

Yeah. Which is a bit wild. Yeah.

[B]

So that's what I'm. You know, this is the beginning, man. You know, so it's now a matter of, like, me and you figuring out a strategy on how we pull this data together. And I just need to clone myself. That's all I need to do.

[C]

So.

[B]

No, this is cool, man. Again, this is exactly what I was hoping for. I was hoping for that we would get a tool in place that we could now replicate with. And correct me if I'm wrong here, we've done all of the. We've done all of the legwork now. So we understand the analysis, we understand what we're going to do now. It's a matter of if you give me. If I give you a new kmz, that's all you need, right?

[C]

Yeah. So all I need is a new kmz and then I can just run the pipeline on that new kmz, check the results against what's actually happening, and then, given all the bounds for the NDBI analysis are correct, publish those results and bring them onto this website. Yeah, amazing, Amazing.

[B]

So any Tanzanian operators listening to this send us KMZs because Oscar needs the business? No, I think it's cool. Look, I. I I think from a collaboration perspective, look, you're halfway around the world, you're in New Zealand and you just built an app that shows the proof of habitat change in Africa for a company that's headquartered in America.

[C]

Yeah. It's wild. Yeah. I need to go see the. What's actually happening as well, and then I can. I reckon that's going to create a lot of motivation, I think, for myself.

[B]

I told Mike Antolides, I think I told him, I said, I think the cool. I think what we need to do is a follow on to this is. I don't know if you've ever read any of Mike Fay's stuff. Do you know who Mike Fay is?

[C]

No.

[B]

I would. If you have any time to read, I know you're a busy guy.

[C]

I have time.

[B]

I would read a book called the Mega Transect.

[C]

Mega Transect, Yep.

[B]

He walked from the Indian Ocean to the Atlantic Ocean in a straight line, literally across the jungles of Africa. Okay. And he documented everything, like all the biodiversity, the birds, the animals, the poop, everything.

[C]

Wow.

[B]

And it took him like 280 days to walk across. Okay. And got. They got stuck like in a wetland complex, a swamp system that they would. They would have to move like 500 meters a day. That's all they could move. And they were living on like islands or like up on branches and shit like that to sleep. It was. It's an insane. The dude's insane. And there was a photographer that went with him. Gosh, I can't remember the photographer's name, but I've had him on the podcast. I've had the photographer that went on this transact with this guy on the podcast. And that's what I want to do with Mike Angelides. I said, let's do a transect. Let's start in Pee west and let's just take two days of walking across Pee west and get to the river and then do two more days of walking to PD east and document things. Like, for instance, again, one of the things I have to research is there's an app called Merlin. Merlin is a citizen science bird app. Right. I told you about it.

[C]

Yes. Yeah. Really cool. Yeah.

[B]

Like, does it work in Tanzania, number one? And will it work without signal? Do we need like a star, like Starlink mini or something like that with us? But you can get bird diversity measurements out of Merlin. And so every morning at 6:30 you run your Merlin app to get a diversity measure. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And do it on the east and west side again. Another piece of data to show how bird diversity has changed. There's going to be birds on the east, probably a lot of doves and pigeons and stuff like that, but the diversity should be much greater on the west. Maybe it isn't. Maybe it is. I don't know. But yeah, Mike loved the idea.

[C]

That'd be cool. That'd be real cool. I've got some pretty good leagues on me.

[B]

Inviting yourself. I like it. I like it. Would you do it across.

[C]

Across the. I'm assuming you'd do it across the area from west to east, where it goes from. Yeah, Savannah Top changed. Yeah.

[B]

On the top for sure.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Or you'd have two teams, one starting on the west and one starting in east going together. But I think you want the same people, you want the same team going across both. Both sides.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Because it'll be star. Based on the imagery we see, it'll be different. Completely different. You'll be walking on, you know, tilled up ground and slash ground versus full on habitat.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Cool. So cool.

[B]

One day. One day. One day. Oscar, where can people find more about Wild Vision if they want to download it, if they want to learn more about it?

[C]

Yeah. So you can go to wildvisionnz.com or search up Wild Vision on the App Store or the Play Store or Wild Vision on wildvisionhunt on Instagram. Nice.

[B]

Well, I appreciate you just saying yes to me and saying yes to this crazy idea and man, coming through. Now we just need to publish the data. We can gather the data, publish it in a peer reviewed article and then let the world know about it and let them play with it. You know, put it on our website and let them play with it. That's the idea. Final idea. That's exactly where we want it to be.

[C]

100%. Yeah. And appreciate you, Robbie. You do some good stuff.

[B]

Thank you, Oscar. Appreciate you, man.

[C]

Cheers, mate.

[B]

Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.