Episode 642 - BASC Researchers || The Science Behind Wildfowling

Summary

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The Origins Foundation Podcast

Episode 642 – BASC Researchers: The Science Behind Wildfowling

Date: April 30, 2026
Host: James (The Origins Foundation)
Guests: Sophie Stafford & Heather Warrender (BASC Scientific Advisors)

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Episode Overview

This episode delves into the scientific work behind wildfowling (often called "duck hunting" in other countries) in the UK, focusing on how hunters and scientists collaborate to conserve waterfowl populations. Host James sits down with BASC scientific advisors Sophie Stafford and Heather Warrender to explore their research, the role of self-regulation in hunting communities, and the challenges faced around public perception, university education, and wildlife management policy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Understanding Wildfowling & BASC’s Role

• Terminology Difference: In the UK, “wildfowling” specifically refers to hunting wild ducks, geese, and waders, distinct from “duck shooting” (00:50).
• BASC (British Association for Shooting & Conservation): A major British organization that supports ethical hunting and wildlife conservation (05:24).
• Team Structure: Heather and Sophie are two of five scientific advisors at BASC (05:34).

2. Scientific Rigor & Projects

• Main Research Initiatives:
  • Wing Survey: Collects one wing from each shot bird to assess species, age, and sex (23:08).
  • Bird Ringing/Banding (Project Penelope): Tracks waterfowl movements and survival rates through color and metal rings, often coordinated with groups like the BTO (British Trust for Ornithology) and WWT (Wildfowl & Wetlands Trust) (33:36, 38:36).
  • Duck Nest and Disease Studies: Projects spanning nest monitoring and investigation of rice breast disease (10:16).
• Data Collection History:
  • Wing surveys began in the 1960s but had an important gap between 2002–2017 due to lost funding (26:13).
  • Longitudinal data exist for species like wigeon and teal since 1986 (26:37).

3. Value of Voluntary Hunter Data & Self Regulation

• Voluntary Surveys: Hunters voluntarily send wings for research; without their participation, valuable data would not exist (36:20).
• Self-regulation:
  • Though there are no statutory bag limits on waterfowl in the UK, clubs and individuals often impose their own, more stringent limits (32:47).
  • BASC’s “code of conduct” exemplifies proactive governance, countering the stereotype that hunters overexploit resources (33:59, 34:53).
• Citizen Science: The hunting community’s proactive participation is crucial for ongoing conservation monitoring (37:14).

4. Challenges: Perception, Education & Policy

• Academic Perceptions:
  • UK universities (especially in zoology and biology) mostly treat hunting and sustainable use negatively or avoid the topic, unlike agricultural degrees (12:18, 12:56, 13:46).
  • Student hunters can feel their perspectives are dismissed, which discourages open discussions (13:56).
  • There is little academic discussion about the benefits of moorland management via hunting (17:10).
• Public & NGO Attitudes:
  • Major wildlife organizations in the UK (RSPB, RSPCA, Wild Justice) focus on bird protection but rarely on deer or other species (18:04).
  • There’s a narrative discrepancy: predators are viewed as needing protection, while controlling them for ecosystem balance is stigmatized (19:49).
• Communication Gaps:
  • The long-standing, positive impacts of wildfowler self-governance often go unrecognized outside hunting circles (34:25).
  • Fear of losing rights has kept hunters’ contributions “in the closet,” but there’s a growing call for positive storytelling (34:53, 35:03).

5. Science of Population Trends and Threats

• Findings from Data:
  • Significant declines in adult females and reproductive output for wigeon and teal in the hunted bag over time (26:49).
  • Main drivers seem to be habitat loss, increased predation on breeding grounds (notably due to raccoon dogs and American mink), and environmental degradation, not hunting per se (29:06, 30:30).
  • There’s incomplete data on hunting take across Europe, making continent-wide conclusions about sustainability challenging (30:37).

6. International Collaboration & Management

• Waterfowlers’ Network: Seven-country European effort to coordinate research, habitat restoration, and monitoring (27:49).
• Migratory Connectivity: Ring recoveries help trace connections between the UK and breeding grounds in Scandinavia and Russia (39:30, 40:35).

7. Engagement, Demographics & Future Challenges

• Aging Community: The wildfowling community faces the issue of aging members and a shortage of younger recruits (44:18).
• Cultural Shift Needed: Modern society is increasingly disconnected from nature, impacting recruitment and understanding of hunting’s conservation role (45:16).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Hunting Stereotypes:

“You hunters, you go out and you slaughter everything. You kill everything. Well, these guys are like, no, no, the government says we can do that, but we actually don’t.”
— James (Podcast Host), (33:59)

On Educational Gaps:

“University was not necessarily one sided but just not open to talking about those [hunting] things...If he asked questions..he kind of gets shut down.”
— Sophie Stafford, (13:46)

On Gap in Citizen Science:

“This wouldn’t exist if it wasn’t for the duck shooters...with the governments not asking them to collect data mandatory.”
— Heather Warrender, (36:26)

On ecosystem management realities:

“The problem is with our landscape. We’ve modified it so much for a human landscape that it’s never going to find its natural balance...wildlife’s trying to fit in where it can.”
— Heather Warrender, (21:28)

On generational change:

“My biggest war in life is who’s coming after me.”
— Story relayed by James, (44:57)

On the importance of sharing the story:

“We do need to bring our heads above the parapet and shout about the good things that we’ve been doing without enforcement.”
— Heather Warrender, (34:53)

British humor & camaraderie:

“Let me close this door because I have a little wiener dog.”
“You are…You’re laughing because I said wiener.”
— Podcast Host & Cast, (02:07–02:12)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:50 – Defining “wildfowling” vs. “duck hunting”
• 05:34 – BASC’s scientific team structure
• 10:16 – BASC research projects overview
• 12:18 – University backgrounds & educational attitude toward sustainable use
• 13:56 – Challenges discussing hunting in academic settings
• 17:10 – Lack of balanced moorland management education in university wildlife management courses
• 23:08 – The science and methods behind the wing survey project
• 26:13 – History and continuity of waterfowl data collection
• 26:49 – Recent findings: declines in female wigeon & teal, reproductive indices
• 29:06–30:30 – Causes of waterfowl declines (predators and habitat loss, not hunting)
• 32:47 – UK bag limits and hunters’ self-regulation
• 34:25 – Communication gaps between hunting communities and wider public
• 36:20 – The vital role of volunteer hunter-contributed data
• 38:36 – Bird ringing programs and tracking migratory connectivity
• 44:18 – Demographic concerns: will the next generation of hunters carry on?
• 45:16 – Broader societal disconnect from nature

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Conclusion

This episode highlights the rigorous, science-driven ethos of BASC’s wildfowling community and the vital conservation work underpinned by volunteers. It addresses the complexity of balancing wildlife management, the difficulties in bridging educational and perceptual gaps, and the need to champion the truth about sustainable hunting. Through humor, honesty, and clear science, Heather and Sophie demonstrate that hunters are at the vanguard of collecting critical population data and self-regulating within a misunderstood landscape—work that is increasingly crucial as generational change and modern attitudes put traditional conservation alliances at risk.

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For further exploration:

• Learn more about BASC’s wing survey and citizen science projects
• Read up on long-term waterfowl population studies in Europe
• Engage with new narratives that merge science, tradition, and sensible wildlife management

Transcript

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[Podcast Host (James)]

Today, the British association of shooting and conservation BASc in the United Kingdom does a lot of work as it relates to wildlife conservation as well as obviously shooting well. We had an opportunity to talk to two of their scientific advisors, Sophie Stafford

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

and Heather Warrender, about the work that

[Podcast Host (James)]

they're doing specifically in the wild fouling space in the UK they call it wild fowling, not duck hunting. Duck hunting and duck shooting is something

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

different altogether in the United Kingdom.

[Podcast Host (James)]

And so I wanted to sit down with Sophie and Heather to explain the scientific rigor that comes from these wildfowlers and the information that they are collecting

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

from the birds that they shoot.

[Podcast Host (James)]

Fascinating little podcast. I hope you enjoy it. So five years ago there was a reason why I started this movement. And the truth then is the truth now that we need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around what we do and who we are.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

There's a sweet spot with a gun,

[Podcast Host (James)]

you know, too heavy and it's a

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

burden to walk with. Too light and you whipping it. Why is the project so important to the hunting community? It's. It's a. I think it's not only important, I think it's. I think it's vital. I think it's. It's just in time.

[Podcast Host (James)]

It's like snakes and ladders. You guys climbing the ladder and then somebody does something stupid and you just slide that. That is such an amazing analogy.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Snakes and ladders. Yeah.

[Podcast Host (James)]

You know, ivory in, in my opinion was the plastic of its age. Okay.

[Sophie Stafford]

The expenses are going up.

[Heather Warrender]

It goes a long way with families. We have families that do need it.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Let me close this door because I have a little wiener dog.

[Podcast Host (James)]

What?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

You are.

[Podcast Host (James)]

You're laughing because I said wiener.

[Sophie Stafford]

I'm really glad you finished this. And it's out.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I'm sorry, the first.

[Heather Warrender]

What are we doing here today?

[Podcast Host (James)]

You're telling the whole world.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

You've even put like gloves on.

[Heather Warrender]

Oh yeah. It's cuz I was. Yeah. Prepping these.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Prepping wings.

[Heather Warrender]

Prepping wings. Yeah. I have a. A duck aging and sexing workshop for the BTO on Saturday, aging and sexing workshop. Yeah. So it's a ringers conference. Do you know bird ringers? They put little rings on birds and not ringing their necks, ringing their legs.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I know that Lewis isn't in here, who's part of the slots media team, but you probably did like four sexual innuendos in the first, like four first 15 seconds of this podcast.

[Heather Warrender]

Oh, God.

[Sophie Stafford]

It's a lot.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah. Yeah. So, yes, I am. Yeah. Delivering a workshop for some people training to be bird ringers and haven't necessarily done any ducks because they're quite difficult to catch.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And Bask is doing the ringing itself.

[Heather Warrender]

So I do a bit of bird ringing in my spare time. We've got a very. Various projects ringing ducks. But this work, this conference that I'm going to is bto. So that's British Trust of Ornithology.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Okay.

[Heather Warrender]

And it's based. Yes, but bird ringers and Twitchers are slightly different. I feel like there is crossover, but we wouldn't put them all in the same group.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Okay.

[Heather Warrender]

So, yeah, that's down there kind of with wwt. So it's based at wwt, which is the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust in Slimbridge. So I'll be heading down there and I thought I'd try and preserve some wings so I can show them what the wing survey is without having to be all gruesome. Yeah, not too much.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And you've. You preserved them in salt?

[Heather Warrender]

Yes, I've tried doing it in salt, like pinning them out on these foam boards so they're nicely seen, spread.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Well, we are currently in Wales. We are northern Wales. Close to. We're in Rossett.

[Heather Warrender]

Yes.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Close to Wrexham. If everyone knows Wrexham, the football club.

[Heather Warrender]

Welcome to Wrexham.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, yeah. Has it. Has it been popularized over here just as much as being in America?

[Heather Warrender]

Probably, yeah. I don't know if it's been more popular in America or. Or not. A lot of people that I speak to that aren't from Wrexham are like, oh, I've. Well, I've watched the man U1 or whatever other football team ones there are. I didn't even realize there were other football team ones. But my partner's lived in Wrexham all his life, so we've watched every season and every episode. But no, it's great because the town's such a vibe now, so it has brought tourism. Yeah, it's nice.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So we are at the Basque headquarters. We are British association of Shooting and Conservation.

[Heather Warrender]

Absolutely.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And you two are the scientists here? Are you the only two scientists here?

[Heather Warrender]

We've got A team of five now. So there's another scientific advisor that's just joined our team today. Amazing Julia. And then we've got head of Science.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Her first day is today her first.

[Heather Warrender]

Well, she's moved from a different team.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Should have brought her here. You got some wing work to do today.

[Heather Warrender]

Work. I know it'll be all new to her. And then Cat is our boss.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Heather Warrender]

Dr. Cat McNicol. And then we've got Kathy as well.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

That was my first introduction to Basque. I was introduced to Cat by email and trying to get a podcast set up with Cat, and then she was like, I just. My schedule, I just cannot get you on. You need to talk to James. And that's how we started. And I had James on the podcast and then that's led us to right here, right now, this whole process, it's exciting.

[Heather Warrender]

It sounds really exciting, what you'll be doing up in Preston today.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So introduce yourself.

[Podcast Host (James)]

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[Heather Warrender]

So I'm Heather Warrender, BASC scientific advisor.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

How long have you worked for basc?

[Heather Warrender]

It'll be eight years in August. This was my first job straight out of my masters.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

What'd you get your masters in?

[Heather Warrender]

Wildlife Management at Newcastle University.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I liked it.

[Heather Warrender]

Repping my lab coat.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Lab coat from then.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And you?

[Sophie Stafford]

I'm Sophie Stafford.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I'm also putting that mic a little bit closer to your face.

[Sophie Stafford]

I'm Sophie Stafford. I'm also one of Basque scientific advisors. I've been here for three years now.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And what did you get your masters in?

[Sophie Stafford]

I've done a BSc in Zoology with conservation, followed by an internship.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And so what are you going to do your masters in since you're in the science field here?

[Heather Warrender]

PhD?

[Sophie Stafford]

Well, yeah, I'm thinking about like PhD through artist work.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So I like it.

[Sophie Stafford]

Just seeing what opportunities these projects that I do here give me and seeing where it goes.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Well, as soon as you get interested in something, that's the, that's the beauty of it.

[Sophie Stafford]

Now it's ducks. Heather has got me into ducks.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Never were in ducks into ducks before.

[Sophie Stafford]

I was, but I wasn't, I wasn't specialized in any direction beforehand. I just kind of went. I was interested in so many things but that, yeah, I just kind of went wherever that took me and it took me to Heather and ducks.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And you both, you're not just. You don't just do ducks, you're under, as I understand you're under, under everything. The scientific sort of umbrella of. Of Basque.

[Sophie Stafford]

Right, yeah. So like any evidence reviews that we need to do like whatever, like the topic that is needed at the time we research and we have surveys and we outsource research to external partners as well. Um, yeah, yeah.

[Heather Warrender]

It just happens that our longer projects like the WINK survey and Sophie's got a couple on duck nests and rice breast disease. Don't know if you've heard of it.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

No, never heard of that.

[Heather Warrender]

But all of our like longer term projects are waterfowl, wildfowl based. But yes, we dabble across.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

But it makes Sense. Because that's what, that's essentially what Basque was started in.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Right. Yes. You do do deer stuff, you do do biodiversity stuff, but it's ducks. Wild fouling is what started. Which is Wagby. What does Wagby stand for?

[Heather Warrender]

Oh, now you're asking.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Oh, come on, you better get this right.

[Heather Warrender]

Wild Fowl association for Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Or is it Island? No, it's island. Just island.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Ireland. Great Britain and Ireland. I was testing you. I knew that. So your background, your masters was in what?

[Heather Warrender]

Wildlife management.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Okay.

[Heather Warrender]

So, yeah, as soon as I. I hadn't even finished it when I saw this job come up and I was like, oh, what a. What a thing to go into. Yeah. Because I, my. I grew up on the moors in the Peak District National Park.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Nice.

[Heather Warrender]

My granddad was a upland grouse head keeper.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Wow.

[Heather Warrender]

Up there. My dad is part of a little syndicate, grouse shoot in District. District. So spent my childhood tromping the moors after him, checking traps and putting out grit and heather burning and tree planting and all that sort of thing. So, yeah, grew up in the shooting community.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So I'm. I'm fascinated. You went to Newcastle University, did your Bachelor of Science at Newcastle as well?

[Heather Warrender]

Yes, I did animal science. So I started in kind of agriculture rather than wildlife and then did my masters in wild. I. I got bored of pigs and sheep and chickens. And then I was like, okay, wildlife, that's what I want to do. Right. So, yeah.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And you, Sophie, what university did you go to?

[Sophie Stafford]

Bangor, which is in North Wales, like an hour from here.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So what is the tenor in the university system as it relates to sustainable use of wildlife and hunting? Is the university system, are they talking about it? Are they pro it? Sophie's shaking her head like, no, my.

[Sophie Stafford]

So just for context, my background is like, no shooting, nothing related to that in my upbringing. I'm from North Wales, but had no background knowledge of this industry or this.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

You weren't connected to it at all. Your family wasn't doing it, your friends weren't doing it. None of that. Okay.

[Sophie Stafford]

So my university experience was very. I suppose zoology is very theoretical. There was slightly less practical, like the wildlife management. Um, but there wasn't a lot of talk of, or if there was, it was usually in a negative light. So when I went on to get this job, my family and friends were like, what on earth like? You like animals, but you're like working for a shooting organization. But I just. After seeing the job description, I thought, I don't disagree with this. Based on my knowledge, although I've been taught by people who maybe disagree with it. I was, yeah, I didn't disagree with anything that Basque was doing.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So essentially, were you in a. Would you have class of classified yourself in a. A neutral opinion mindset around shooting and hunting?

[Sophie Stafford]

I'd say so, yeah. Especially from the wild food point of view and the health benefits of that. I, yeah, I supported that very much so. But yeah, university was not necessarily one sided but just not open to talking about those things. I know someone who was on my course who did shoot and if he asked questions about like, oh, what about this? Have you considered this when the lecturer's talking kind of gets shut down. Well, which, yeah, I reflected on later on and taken the shot and thought, yeah, there's something going on in the education system that maybe we need to get out there more as well and be the voice. Our scientists who go back to uni and say, hey, like this is what we've done.

[Heather Warrender]

You Heather, probably similar vibes. Obviously. I was in the agriculturally sector in my bachelor's so there were people more open to that within that course and stuff. So I wasn't in the. The zoology bit.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Give me the livestock, animal husbandry component

[Heather Warrender]

of things, all that sort of stuff. But the. They were all country folk, like they weren't the academics, the scientists. We were all looking at managing sheep and cows and grazing and land and all that sort of thing. So that kind of came along with it. And they were all in the clay shooting club, that kind of thing. But with my wildlife management masters, yeah, I moved schools. So I was in the agricultural school originally and then moved to the biology school for that one that was different. And we were talking about wildlife management and conflicts. So one of the key human wildlife conflicts that they brought up in the UK was the hen harriers situation. So there's a human wildlife conflict between hen harriers upon moorlands and the upland grouse situation.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yep. And the potent. And the associated illegal take of hen harriers to protect.

[Heather Warrender]

To protect the grass population. Yeah. So that obviously was the only thing that the whole cohort got taught about in terms of the shooting community in the UK while we were there. And I talked to my lecturer about it and I was like, I don't think this is a very fair reflection. I think we're based in the uk, we should be learning more about.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And you brought this back because of your upbringing.

[Heather Warrender]

What's that? Sorry?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

You brought this to attention because of your upbringing.

[Sophie Stafford]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

You were familiar with this situation I

[Heather Warrender]

know the whole picture. Or have a better understanding of the whole picture and just highlight. I mean, the. The module was on human wildlife conflicts. But I was like, it's not really fair to just give the only thing that we're learning about in the UK of wildlife management as that, like, there's a whole community around that's doing such good stuff.

[Sophie Stafford]

Yeah. And it's labeling that community, then for people, the people who are learning on your course, labeling that community.

[Heather Warrender]

And then that's the bad thing. And it's not really a fair reflection of the entire community, obviously. It's definitely something we need to work on and acknowledge and reduce.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So there wasn't a discussion on moorland management in your wildlife management course that showed the biodiversity enhancement as a result of shooting Amor.

[Sophie Stafford]

Not really.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Versus not using them all.

[Heather Warrender]

Wow. Though what we did, we went to kill the forest and looked at deer and the damage that deer did to the trees and then the management of the deer. So that was something that we did that was also shooting community based, but in terms of, like the bird side or whatever, it was a bit more negative. So, yeah, deer seems to be a more approachable thing within wildlife management within the uk because of the tree conflict.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. It's funny, in. In, in America, nobody cares about deer either.

[Heather Warrender]

It's honest like them, and they're delicious and they look more like something that we. Every day, I guess.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

But you're not going to see. What are your big animal rights organizations here in the UK? Is Peter big here?

[Heather Warrender]

It's not that.

[Podcast Host (James)]

RSPs. RSP.

[Heather Warrender]

RSPB. In terms of birds, RSPCA and wild justice to persecution. Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. And. But there's none that are protecting deer.

[Heather Warrender]

No.

[Sophie Stafford]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. It's just because it's just the deer. It doesn't make headlines, it doesn't make money, doesn't raise money.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah.

[Sophie Stafford]

It's interesting.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I'm coming back in April to do essentially what we're doing this week. Don't come back in April to do one on Morelands. And I'm going to an event, I don't know where my geography in the United Kingdom just gets turned around. I think I'm going west, but. No, you're going south. I was like, all right. On. There's a. There's a course called why Morelands Matter and they bring all sorts of diversified people from the cities and whatnot to a moorland. And it's this open conversation about, you know, why shooting is important. And then controversially, we're going to leave There and we're going to go across into Wales somewhere and we're going to look at RSPB site.

[Heather Warrender]

Is that Lake Vernwe?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Heather Warrender]

Interesting.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I'll release this podcast after we do this to show that it's a dead sight, essentially.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah. It's an interesting place, Lake Fernry. I've not done too much work on

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

it, but, like, as I've been told, if you walk out into the moorland that is managed through shooting, it's like this chorus and crescendo of bird life in the morning. You walk out into that same place that same morning and it's like, where the birds, like, isn't supposed to be. The Royal Protection. Royal Society of the Protection of Birds. Where the birds.

[Heather Warrender]

It's the prejudice control side, isn't it?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It absolutely is. Yeah, it's. And again, it's this whole mindset of nobody cares about deer, but how dare you manage a predator.

[Heather Warrender]

It looks fluffy and cute.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. And they belong. And you're like, sure, we're not trying to eradicate the predators. It's just a management scenario.

[Sophie Stafford]

In the same way that if you had wolves, they would manage those predators. Yes.

[Heather Warrender]

We don't want to.

[Sophie Stafford]

Which we don't. Which we don't want.

[Heather Warrender]

But, oh, no.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Well, it's, it's, you know, wolves. I think you two would find it fascinating when you start digging into management of animals and you start looking around the world at sustainable use of wildlife. There has been probably 30 years of save the X, save the wolf, save the grizzly, save the polar bear. Name something here. Save the. Whatever. Save the elephant, save the rhino, save the badger. Let's use that. And probably in the 90s, early 2000s, it was needed, okay? But today we are past that. There's no longer a need to save the wolf. We are way over recovery objectives. There's no longer need to save the elephants. We have more elephants today than we've ever had in a century in probably a fifth of the habitat available today, versus what we used to have. Same with badges. Same with feral horses. Same with. So now it's all about sustain and manage the X. But people can't, man. But you can't get around that narrative, number one and that. Secondly, that narrative doesn't make any money.

[Heather Warrender]

It should all be part of the management process from the start, shouldn't it? If you're thinking about recovering something, the problem is with our landscape. We've modified it so much for a human landscape that it's never going to find its natural balance. Because we're always, we've tilted that balance already. So wildlife's trying to fit in where it can. So you can't just bring something back and expect it to manage itself self. Cuz it doesn't.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Well, don't you hear that all the time online or whatnot? Somebody going, well, just rewind the clock.

[Heather Warrender]

How? Yeah, yeah.

[Sophie Stafford]

Also like there's people involved in that. In that there's a populate, like a country of people. They're not going to change their habits and how they live for the sake. Like that's too big an ask for a whole population. There might be a part of the population that is willing to do that, but it's unrealistic. Like I said, we can't go back that far at this point.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah. The other one that we hear a lot of is like, it's, oh, it's the humans. Get rid of the humans.

[Heather Warrender]

I'm like, how are you going to do that?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Thank you, Heather. Like my, my response is. Well, we'll just start with, we'll start with you first. Since you want to get rid of everyone, get rid of the humans. Are you suggesting other people need to go before you or let's start with you.

[Heather Warrender]

Interesting. Yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So you guys, we've got a bunch of wings out here. This, we started talking about this earlier right at the beginning of the podcast. So this is some of your waterfowl research that you are undertaking at Basque. So what, so tell me first, what, what do we have here? You've got.

[Heather Warrender]

So here we've got the wings that I've been preserving. So when wings come in, they actually come in like in a bag.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And what kind of wings are coming in?

[Heather Warrender]

Ducks from wild ducks, geese and waders.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So we've. Sophie's hitting. I know, Serious. She's putting her gloves on right now.

[Heather Warrender]

So. Yeah. So Hunters shooters will submit one wing from each duck.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Why are they doing that? Okay, sorry, too many questions.

[Heather Warrender]

They'll submit one wing from each duck, goose or wader that they've shot, pop them every. If they've shot five from one day, they can put them all in the same bag with the date that they shot them, the county that they shot them in, send them to me and Sophie and I will go through them, record all this data. And from the ducks, we can tell the age and the sex of them

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

from just the wing.

[Heather Warrender]

Just from the wing. So we can only age them adult or juvenile. So a juvenile was born in the previous breeding season after they've been through the second, they're the juveniles, first breeding season, they go through a full moult, so you can't.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And then from there the feathers are the same.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah. Then they're adults.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Okay.

[Heather Warrender]

So from that then obviously we can build up a picture year on year of how many juveniles are in that population, in the hunted side of that population, how many adult females are. They're the. The reproductive driver.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Sure.

[Heather Warrender]

And how many adult males. So how skewed is that population? And that could potentially, with other information, all the ecological data, the predation data from those breeding grounds can show us potentially where predation's higher, if it's on the breeding grounds, that sort of thing. Thing and survival.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

How long have you been doing this?

[Heather Warrender]

Ever since I started. This was the first project that I got given, so seven years.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So seven years ago somebody decided we needed to collect better waterfowl data.

[Heather Warrender]

Well, this has actually been going on in the UK since the 1960s. It started back in the 1960s.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Who was collecting that data then?

[Heather Warrender]

Vasco? Well, Wagby at the time with wwt, the Wildfowl and Wetlands Trust. I believe they started it together back then. Unfortunately, we've not got data all the way back then. I don't know if it's lost in an archive somewhere, but we've currently got data back to 1986 and unfortunately the survey was stopped in 2002 due to lack of funding. And then Matt Ellis, my boss at the time, he's now Executive Director of conservation here at BASC, he and Rich Hearn at WWT restarted the survey in 2017 because obviously there was a.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So you lost 15 years of data?

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah, well, but there was an obvious lack of data because we hadn't been doing it. So yeah, I've got that big task now of a 15 year gap, which is eye watering for a scientist.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So. But have you looked at the data? Is this. Is there a massive change between 2002 and 2017?

[Heather Warrender]

So I've looked at it from the entire data set back to 1986 and the only continuous species that we've got for that time period are widget and teal. And I've just published a paper.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Wow.

[Heather Warrender]

Funnily enough, on which is basically the long term demographics of these two species within the hunted bag. And it shows that we've had significant declines of adult females in both species and the reproductive output of both species. So if you calculate the juveniles per adult female across the entire data set, you can have a reproductive index, shows how many breeding females kind of are producing how many.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And the toughest part about this is, as I understand it, those, those breeding grounds for those females are not here.

[Heather Warrender]

No, they're up in Scandinavia or in far into Russia. So there's not a whole lot we can do apart from if we work with the waterfowls network, which is what James mentioned to you guys earlier.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Seven countries or something like that.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah. So it's a group of hunting organizations throughout Europe from, I think seven ish countries that are coming together and looking at where we can fund restoration of habitats in these breeding grounds for our ducks, where we can fund research projects. So a lot of these countries that didn't have wing surveys before have now set up wing surveys. So hopefully with time, obviously it takes time to build up these data sets, but with time, hopefully we can build a really nice picture of up in Denmark. What does the population in the hunting bag look like? It's probably going to have a much higher population of the juveniles, but then the kind of migration route, how does that population change across the route as well? So you can look at juvenile survival and yeah, hopefully we'll be able to piece together a better picture. But yes, the cross European boundaries does cause problems for migratory waterfowl conservation and management for sure.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And so if you looked at that data set, you might have written this in the paper. What is your hypothesis when it comes to causes of decline?

[Heather Warrender]

It differs between the two species. So they've both got. Obviously we looked at all of the research that's happened on those two species over that time period pretty much, and there's been a lot of changes in those breeding ground areas and the populations have been doing different things. So if we take Widgeon, their population was increasing and then it's been showing declines. I think it was in the early 2010s. And if we look at the habitat and the predators that have increased in those breeding grounds in central eastern northern Europe, they've had a massive explosion in raccoon dogs.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Heather Warrender]

Which is causing big problems. They're thinking, what is their American mink I think is over there as well. So that is obviously going to be a predation impact. Also there's been habitat change, eutrophication of waterways, expanding human populations in areas, changing habitats, forestry clearance, drainage of wetlands for forestry. It's all going to be impacting the more industrial we become as a human race. It's going to have impact, isn't it?

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So the thing that you didn't mention was take. Yes, you didn't mention hunting. You didn't mention.

[Heather Warrender]

Unfortunately, there is not Much data on take across Europe. The populations haven't absolutely crashed. There have been a few papers to look at sustainable take. Both of them say there is potential that both of these populations do have an unsustainable harvest, which is obviously something that we need to think about. Widgeon have. Now the population is looking like it's not continuing that decline. It's actually started to increase again, which is a good thing. The teal population is, has not undertaken those declines. It seems to have started to stabilize, which means it could have kind of reached carrying capacity, especially if the habitats declined in those breeding areas, if there's less habitat. Teal are quite an adaptive species, so they can pretty much breed in so many different places, but if that habitat has changed, they're still, they've still got to be around waterways, that sort of thing. So yeah, there are a few different things, but the European. I think it's. There's a European paper that has said that there's unsustainable take for both species. We don't collect bag data. It's not. There's not a uniform collection of bag data across Europe. Everybody's got their own system, their own hunting regulations. So it's very difficult for us to one defend.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Do we know what the hunting regulations look like for the rest? Because here, that's one of the things. One of the reasons why we're here is that in England, Wales, uk, United Kingdom, there's a very. I would even go. I don't think liberal is the appropriate term. It's unlimited, I. E. There is no bag limit. Yeah. And I know limits are a term of art. That is not something that is utilized here in United Kingdom, but there is

[Heather Warrender]

no number depends where you are. So some wildfireing clubs set their own by the government. By the government, not enforced by the

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

government, by the government.

[Heather Warrender]

There's no legal correct while.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And that's the another. That's the whole point of why we're here. The government, the, the, the asso, the, the deciding body for wildlife regulations in this country has said, shoot as many ducks as you want and as many geese as you want for 180 days. It's quite a long September 1st to February something. And then the wildfowlas, the duck hunters themselves have said, no, that's not sustainable. We're going to self regulate ourselves. Now Basque has come out with herself, you know the sort of code of conduct, self regulating. And they've taken even stringent, even more stringent some wild filing clubs beyond that, which again tied to Rhetoric and narrative. You know, you hunters, you go out and you slaughter everything. You kill everything. Well, these guys are like, no, no, the government says we can do that,

[Heather Warrender]

but we actually don't.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

But we actually don't.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah. We regulate ourselves. And. Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Now think about it from your perspective, about how you. The university you went to and that message, that story. This isn't. I didn't hear the story. Didn't get put in place a week ago. This has been 50, 60 years.

[Heather Warrender]

Nobody talks about it.

[Sophie Stafford]

No, it's a probably taboo subject for many people.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

It's just. It blows my mind. I don't know. Look, I don't. Maybe I get it. You know, the hunting fraternity, the wildfowling fraternity wants to be in the quote unquote, in the closet. You know, just leave us alone. We'll do what our. Our thing. Don't mess with us.

[Heather Warrender]

Don't put our heads above the parapet.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, but it's almost like the message is so good.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah. It's got to the point where we do need to bring our heads above the parapet and shout about the good things that we've been doing without enforcement.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Exactly.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah. It has come to that time. But it's difficult for people to change after they've been doing something for so long and have the confidence that it's not just gonna be taken away instantly. Like, oh, yeah, you might be doing that, but actually we still don't like it.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So we're gonna take it away.

[Heather Warrender]

We're gonna take it away. So it. Yeah, it's a scary time because we've also got the aspect of. Well, if we don't talk about all the good stuff we're doing, they might just take it away anyway. Because they don't know all the good things. So.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

No, because they. They have this perception.

[Heather Warrender]

Exactly.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

That we're just out to kill things, you know, waylay things and just like, you know, the punt gunning, you know, that's. It's amazing. Like, it's amazing that. But it's also like, that's why they got rid of it in. In. In America, because it was just unsustainable. But the whole ethic and ethos of the wildfowling community here. Not everyone. The vast majority of wildfowling clubs is completely 180 degrees away from that m. It's impressive.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah, it's an interesting place.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And to get your wings. Do they. Are they. This is also voluntary, right. They don't have to be cutting off wings and sending it to you.

[Heather Warrender]

No, this is all Voluntary. So this project wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the. The duck shooters.

[Sophie Stafford]

I mean, the same for all the

[Heather Warrender]

projects, citizen science, voluntary projects. So, yeah, this relies on them sending us the data and then we've got something. Because with the government's not asking them to collect data. Mandatory. So we've not. They don't have to. But this gives us something to say, actually. Let's have a look at what our hunters in the UK are shooting. Let's have a look at the populations that they're voluntary submitting data to. They don't have to. And it just gives us this really valuable data set to do the monitoring in kind of like a passive way.

[Sophie Stafford]

And proactive. Allows us to be proactive for them.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah, because if you think about any other ways of collecting age and sex data of ducks would be ringing. Bird ringing.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Right.

[Heather Warrender]

Or it would be field counts, which aren't very good, especially this late in the season, because you can't. Most of the juveniles are pretty much in full breeding plumage, so it'll be like the odd feather that's still a. A juvenile feather. So this is one of the best ways to collect this data. Nobody else can do it in exactly the same way and on the scale that the. The shooting community can do it.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And where are you getting wings from? You getting wings from all over the United Kingdom?

[Heather Warrender]

All over the United Kingdom, yeah. Some places better than others. Where you're going later, Preston, they have a dedicated spot in their car park where they can they go in, chop the wing off, label it up? I've given them labels and bags and things and they store them in the freezer right there and then.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, I made it easy as possible for you.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah, you'll see it later. And pretty much every single one of their ducks shot on their marsh will come to me, which is a fantastic data set and it's something that I want to try and recreate through the country, but they're just so good as a club, so.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And you've also got a ringing program, right? A banding program?

[Heather Warrender]

Yes, we've got Project Penelope, which originally was a waterfowler's network project, and we've set up ringing. Well, the ringing sites were all already set up. A couple more have been set up. Preston again has been one of these new sites for ringing Widgeon. But yes, we've been colouring them to track their movements, habitat use, site fidelity, so how frequently they come back to the site and hopefully look at survival as well, because I can't Remember when The last survival 2020 Penelope started, it was just. It was a three to four year project, but we've still got rings to go out. So we were tracking widget as well in Finland.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Is that how high they go? Yeah, or they go further than Finland.

[Heather Warrender]

They'll go further into Russia. But in terms of Scandinavia, that's. Yeah, the. Where they go through. They'll either breed there or go through Finland and then carry on to Russia.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So in your. With your band, is there. If somebody shoots one, is there like a phone number or a website or whatnot that they input the data in?

[Heather Warrender]

Sort of. There's the ringing program. So they've got. They'll get fitted with a color ring and a metal ring. So the metal rings are through the bto, the British Trust for Ornithology. All of the ringing in the UK is led by them. So you've got to be a licensed bird ringer to put these rings on. And that's got a code on it. So you'll just go online, input your code onto it. It goes to the bto. We've got a separate reporting site for the color rings. Most of the wildfowlas know about it, I would hope now. And yeah, they'll report the ring and it comes straight to me and then I can input it to the beat.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

So there's no way to capture that data outside of the United Kingdom if those birds get shot.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah, yeah. So there's euring, which is the European ringing network. I think they mono. They kind of coordinate all the ringing activities throughout Europe. And Yeah, so we've had rings reported from Russia, Belarus, Estonia, Lithuania, all sorts. It's insane how many rings. I mean, a lot of our widget are Russian breeders. And it's interesting when you look at the ringing data, there's a huge wetland estuary and there's like a line along it. So there must be quite a bit of hunting activity. But also might be where their breeding and that sort of thing and the limit of their range. But a lot of them will pass through that estuary.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Interesting.

[Heather Warrender]

Or waterway, which is really interesting. So, yeah, we're looking at. Yeah. Monitoring gwin their movements within the UK and across Europe.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

W. Yeah. Either of you shoot now as a wild fowler?

[Sophie Stafford]

Sophie's like, nope, I've been out. When I first started, I went out with James and had a lovely morning sunrise and I thought, oh, do you know what? I could do this.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Okay.

[Sophie Stafford]

So like, I just. I'm not.

[Heather Warrender]

Did you pick up the gun?

[Sophie Stafford]

No, because I'm tuned I don't trust myself.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Okay.

[Sophie Stafford]

I need to get confident. Confident and have time to put into that. But it's something that. Yeah. Especially. Yeah. Wildfowling, I think would be my. My first go to. To try shooting.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

I like it.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah.

[Sophie Stafford]

Because I love duck.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Oh, you love to eat duck?

[Sophie Stafford]

Yeah, I love ducks, but I also like duck pancakes.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

What's a duck pancake?

[Sophie Stafford]

Like crispy duck. From a Chinese. Probably very British.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

No, I like crispy duck. But what is it? Is it in a pancake mix?

[Sophie Stafford]

No, no, it's like you get like Chinese style, like really thin pancakes and you roll it up.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Oh, with duck inside.

[Sophie Stafford]

Yeah. And like hoisin sauce.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Okay. Maybe I should find some of those in the next week.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah, that's good.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And you, you hunt? Shoot.

[Heather Warrender]

No. So I. I got taken out by Preston for a Canada goose. Took a shot but missed it. And I just. I don't know. I love. So obviously coming from the uplands, I'll. I've always been. It's all driven shooting. I've always been in the beating line with my dog and working my dog. And I absolutely love that. That is something that I would do every day. Love seeing dogs work, love walking across the countryside, being part of the community. Absolutely, I'm there for it. I've never even being brought up. We did a bit of clay shooting and that sort of thing, but I was never that bothered about picking up the gun and shooting something myself.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Heather Warrender]

And now we do a bit of clay shooting. Me and my partner and his dad's got a little syndicate for pheasant shoot. But I'm. I'm not that bothered about shooting things myself. But I would love. I just like being part of the day.

[Sophie Stafford]

I enjoy seeing, I think one, once I get a dog, then that'll be like, okay, now I want to work my dog, so that'll like, give me that drive.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, I think so. Definitely.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Well, I appreciate both of you allowing us to crash your party here on a Monday morning.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah, it's been great.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And throw some headsets on you quickly. Just learn a little bit more about what you guys are doing here. It's cool. I. I love the whole sort of self governance component of the wildfowling industry and the hunters themselves, because. And it's a pity that, you know, the other component of this whole story is that these guys are aging out.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

And there's no. And there's no youngsters coming up behind them that are of our age that are like, yeah, we're gonna continue in these footsteps.

[Heather Warrender]

And there are a few, there are a few, not enough.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

But it's the same story all over the world. Like, I've got. I. I've interviewed a guy in Australia, and their club bought this huge wetland expanse, renovated it, rest, restored it, planted 66,000 trees. And he lives and breathes it, and he's lived and breathed it for 55 years. And he was even think saying to me, he's like, my biggest war in life is who's coming off to me.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah, that's the big question.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

New, new generation, new thought processes, you know, they grew up with. That's what they did. Right. He lived and breathed. Going out to the hot morass as a kid, as a adult, that was it.

[Heather Warrender]

Yeah. It's not part of society. No. It's like.

[Sophie Stafford]

Although we all. I think we all recognize the need to be connected to nature and how that benefits mental health, but there is like a growing lack of that with each generation, I feel.

[Podcast Host/Interviewer]

Yeah, totally. Well, Heather, Sophie, thank you. Appreciate you. Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening. As always, leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.