Episode 644 - BASC || Keeping The Tradition Of Wildfowling Alive

Summary

The Origins Foundation Podcast

Episode 644 – BASC || Keeping The Tradition Of Wildfowling Alive
Release Date: May 12, 2026
Featuring: Host, Dave Upton (East Yorkshire), William Wykes (Scottish/English), Gerard Carlisle (Norfolk), Moderator/Interviewer

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Overview

This episode gathers three seasoned wildfowlers from Wales, Scotland, and England for a deep dive into the heritage, ethics, and evolving reality of wildfowling in the UK. The conversation, rich with tradition, explores the differences between UK wildfowling and American “duck hunting,” the importance of self-regulation, the effects of social media and modern pressures, the complexities of law and club administration, and the enduring pride and challenge of this way of life.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Wildfowling vs. Duck Hunting (03:35–06:24)

• UK wildfowlers distinguish themselves from "duck hunters," a term seen as more commercial and Americanized.
• Wildfowling: Done on the marsh, below the high water mark, often under harsh conditions. It’s about the experience and unpredictability, not “easy shooting.”
• “Duck hunting” in the UK often refers to more controlled or commercial setups (e.g., released birds on ponds).

Quote:

"I'm very traditionalist in my ways. And wildfowler would be the word." — Dave Upton (04:17)

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2. The Ethos and Tradition of Wildfowling (09:15–13:53)

• Wildfowling is about immersion in nature, tradition, and enjoying the challenge rather than maximizing harvest.
• There’s respect for other forms of hunting but an emphasis on self-regulation, ethics, and community.
• The experience is as important as, or more important than, the bag.

Quote:

"We go out expecting to be out there. And if we put our work in and we get a shot... But we’re not upset if we don’t get a duck. We're there to take in the world around us. The wildfowling is an escape on its own." — William Wykes (10:19)

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3. Self-Regulation vs. Legal Limits – A Unique System (19:00–26:21)

• The UK, unlike many other countries, often has no bag limits for wildfowling; regulation is managed by clubs via strict codes and mutual oversight.
• Clubs will step in if someone is seen to abuse the trust (e.g., repeatedly taking large bags, especially in poor weather).
• Hard weather bans are imposed after extended severe conditions to protect vulnerable birds.

Quote:

"Most genuine wildfowlers self-regulate... if you’ve been out there and shot 10 ducks and a couple of three geese, why would you want to be there the next day doing exactly the same? You’ve got those birds to deal with." — Dave Upton (25:00)

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4. Modern Pressures & Social Media (12:20–17:13)

• Rising concern that social media culture, especially from the U.S., promotes the pursuit of “limits” as a mark of success.
• The UK wildfowling community sees this as contradictory to their traditional values.
• There’s a generational divide: younger hunters influenced by online trends, older wildfowlers focus on the experience and restraint.

Quote:

"When you put a number on something... that target, you need to reach... Unless you've reached that, that’s not a good day. And it's, it's, it's a complete wrong ethos." — William Wykes (13:53)

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5. Club Structure, Land Access, and Regulation (21:00–38:42)

• UK wildfowling relies heavily on clubs, which lease or own marshland and enforce their own rules—often more restrictive than legal requirements.
• Scotland operates differently: the Crown owns the foreshore, so open access creates extra challenges for self-control and managing outsiders.
• Clubs sometimes have waiting lists, probationary periods, and mentoring systems to ensure responsible membership and tradition continuance.

Quote:

"It’s not just a matter of forming a club and that’s it... All you shoot now has to be consented... Sometimes they’ll look at bag numbers, maybe pintail have gone down in one certain area, so they'll impose a restriction." — Dave Upton (37:35)

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6. Contemporary Challenges: Public Perception and Law Enforcement (31:42–35:12)

• There’s increasing interference from non-hunting public (“Karens”), sometimes resulting in false accusations and police involvement.
• Police and the public often don’t understand local rights to hunt on the foreshore, leading to conflict and confusion.

Quote:

"You're doing something legally... and you get back to your car and there’s a firearms response unit with guns pointed at you. And it’s happened to some of my friends..." — William Wykes (34:44)

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7. Pride, Hardship, and the Spirit of Wildfowling (41:10–47:48)

• The difficulty and unpredictability is seen as a mark of authenticity and pride.
• Night shooting, moon shooting, and use of antique methods (like punt guns) are celebrated traditional aspects.
• Maintaining old customs, such as using simple or handmade decoys, is part of the culture.

Quote:

"It is one of the attractions of it or the main attraction. It’s an adventure, I suppose... Some people want to climb Everest... other people want hardship to try and achieve a goal. And the goal is wildfowling." — Gerard Carlisle (41:22)

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8. Tradition in Kit and Techniques: The Punt Gun Legacy (48:21–66:23)

• Long discussion on punt guns: how rare they are, the mechanics and tradition of their use, and how they differ historically and practically from American market guns.
• Less about making large kills, more about keeping tradition alive, enjoying the technical and natural challenge.

Quote:

"I go out punt gunning not to kill birds. I go out punt gunning to keep that tradition, that area of the sport going… It’s such hard work for such little gain." — William Wykes (49:39)

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9. Mentorship, Safety, and the Future of Wildfowling (66:44–72:20)

• Newcomers are encouraged to take part in trial days and mentoring schemes.
• Emphasis on safety: tides, weather, and marshes are dangerous without experience.
• Wildfowling is a life-long learning process and effectively becomes a way of life for those involved.

Quote:

"Most clubs offer a trial day... and they'll show you the ropes, give you a go at it and see what you think... Because it’s dangerous out there." — Gerard Carlisle (66:58)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Tradition vs. Commercialism:
  “The expensive decoy is a bit like the trout flies to the fishermen... those fancy decoys there to attract the wildfowler or duck hunter as you call it. Not the, not the, the quarry itself.” — Dave Upton (45:45)

• On the Challenge of the Marsh:
  “Wildfowling... you can't just jump into without any... not training but mentorship... You need to know what you’re doing.” — William Wykes (69:55)

• On Commitment:
  “It becomes a way of life... It takes over your life.” — Dave Upton (71:42)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:35 – Defining wildfowling vs. duck hunting
• 09:15 – Wildfowler ethos and tradition
• 12:20 – Effects of social media, generational change
• 19:00 – Self-regulation, ethics, limits
• 21:00 – Club land structure and regulatory framework
• 31:42 – Public perception, law enforcement
• 41:10 – The pride and hardship of wildfowling
• 48:21 – The tradition and reality of punt gunning
• 66:44 – Mentoring, safety, advice to newcomers
• 71:42 – The lifelong commitment and culture of wildfowling

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Conclusion

This episode offers an unvarnished look into the tightly-knit, tradition-soaked world of UK wildfowling, emphasizing its self-regulating ethic, respect for the land and community, and the enduring draw of challenge and heritage. The future’s uncertain—pressures abound, especially from changing social attitudes and regulatory landscapes—but the panel leaves no doubt about the deep pride, camaraderie, and stewardship still thriving among British wildfowlers.

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Final Call to Listeners:
“Do what’s right to convey the truth around hunting.” (72:50)

Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

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[Podcast Host]

Okay, you're gonna have to forgive me for this podcast because you're about to hear a podcast between four individuals, all of which have accents. My accent, and then three other accents. One from Wales, one from Scotland and one from England. These guys are all wildfowlers. They're not duck hunters. That is not something you call them in the United Kingdom. They are wildfowlers. These guys go out in the marsh and they have a very select bag of birds that they go after. They self regulate themselves and they're really just imbued in tradition and heritage tied to this thing that they love so much, which is wildfowling. And so I wanted to have these three gentlemen on. These guys are Dave Upton, William Wykes and Gerard Carlisle. Just exceptional individuals. They love wild fowling, they love the sport, they love the heritage, they love ducks. You'll just have to really listen carefully because the accents are thick.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Enjoy.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

So five years ago, there was a

[Podcast Host]

reason why I started this movement. And the truth then is the truth now that we need to champion our narrative.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

We need to champion the truth around

[Podcast Host]

what we do and who we are.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

There's a sweet spot with a gun, you know, too heavy and it's a

[Gerard Carlisle]

burden to walk with.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Too light and you whipping it. Why is the project so important to hunting community? It's.

[Gerard Carlisle]

It's a. I think it's not only important, I think it's.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

I think it's vital. I think it's. It's just in time.

[Dave Upton]

It's like snakes and ladders. You guys are climbing the ladder and then somebody does something stupid and you just slide that.

[Podcast Host]

That is such an amazing analogy.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Snakes and ladders.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Yeah.

[William Wykes]

You know, ivory in, in my opinion

[Dave Upton]

was the plastic of its age. Okay.

[William Wykes]

The expenses are going up.

[Dave Upton]

It goes a long way with families.

[Gerard Carlisle]

We have families that do need it.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Me close this door because I have a little wiener dog. What you. Are you laughing because I said wiener?

[Narrator/Host]

I'm really glad you finished the sentence out.

[Dave Upton]

I'm sorry. The first happen. What are we doing here today?

[William Wykes]

You're telling the whole world.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

No, not now. Yep, I think that's about right. I don't know how many people are going to actually listen to this podcast. Four people that nobody's going to be able to understand.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Does that include you?

[William Wykes]

That includes me, yeah.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

People are used to my accent.

[Dave Upton]

A little bit more Scottish accent. The cat Williams.

[Gerard Carlisle]

All right.

[William Wykes]

I'm half and half. I'm. I'm English, Scottish. A bit of Irish thrown in. Well, yeah, I was expecting to be on video and subtitles underneath.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Well, I'm French Irish with French Irish. French Irish. Was English thrown in?

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Is that a thing?

[Gerard Carlisle]

No, just where we came from.

[Dave Upton]

I'm Yorkshire English.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yorkshire English.

[Gerard Carlisle]

So you're part Viking, then?

[Dave Upton]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Oh, man. Yeah, a mixed bag.

[Dave Upton]

There were towns of Viking settlement. So yours.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dave Upton]

When they were raping and pillaging.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

So, Dave, last name Upton. Dave Upton from Yorkshire, England.

[Dave Upton]

East Yorkshire.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

East Yorkshire. Wildfowler, which translates to duck hunter. What do you think about if somebody called you a duck hunter?

[Dave Upton]

I think. Well, that's the Americanized way of saying it. I would class myself as wildfowler. Do you think duck hunter or goose hunter?

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Does it denigrate what you are as a wildfowler?

[Dave Upton]

By calling me a hunter?

[Interviewer/Moderator]

By calling you a duck hunter, does it get rid of tradition? It almost feels like wild fowling.

[William Wykes]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

That has this terminology of heritage and legacy.

[Dave Upton]

I'm very traditionalist in my ways. And wildfire would be the. The word.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

I'd prefer Gerard. Last name Carlisle. Oh, I thought you were going to say some French since you were French.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Peltier. That used to be peltier or politier. We can't remember which one. And the French one is Keo. I mean that the Irish one is Keo, but they say it kiosk. I might say it strangely.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Let me find out which channel you're on. There we go. And where you're from. Where are you hailing from?

[Gerard Carlisle]

Norfolk, England.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Norfolk, England. Also would consider yourself a duck hunter.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Wildfowler. Wildfowler duck hunting encapsulates people shooting on flight ponds and inland.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

So not. Not wild.

[Gerard Carlisle]

No. So wild fouling to us is usually done below the high water mark on the marsh under difficult conditions sometimes. And quite often that's the difference between duck hunting and duck hunting is more commercial to us. That's how we see it.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

A very interesting distinction. And it. There is connotations to it. Right? Yep. The inland duck hunting here in England is a put and put and take kind of situation, I. E. They put Ducks on a pond, they fly between ponds, you shoot them and then that's it. It's not really sustainable.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Well, well, it depends if they were going to release birds or not. Sometimes they'll release birds, you know, breed chicks and then bring them up and release them on the ponds. But if they're just doing wild birds and it's not really sustainable as it would be if you bred birds and put them on the pond. I suppose.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah, but breeding birds isn't really just. It's not quote unquote sustainable because you're putting constantly.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Yeah, and for us, it's not a sport because they're tame or not. You know, we need some really, some difficulty in what we do, some challenge. There's no challenge in shooting birds coming to a pond that are tame or semi tame.

[Podcast Host]

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[Interviewer/Moderator]

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[Podcast Host]

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[Dave Upton]

But with duck ponds, you know, if they are releasing bed, they'd be all mallard. But in doing so by feeding the pond, they'll always draw in the wild stock, widging and teal, which we class as our beds. As Gerard said, from below the meanow watermark. And especially if it's a commercialized shoot where people are paying to shoot and they expect sort of decent bags. Whereas a wildfowler, you don't expect anything. You always expect the unexpected.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Do you. Would you turn your nose or do you turn your nose up at people that pay to duck hunt?

[Dave Upton]

No, to me, nose up at them. Because it's not everybody's thing to be trudging out across the mud and, you know, getting sat in a creek and everything else. It's, you know, it's what makes the world go around by everyone doing different things, you know, and if that's what they prefer, we're all well and good as long as they're. They're on our side at the end of the day, well into their own.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

William. Is your last name Wallace?

[William Wykes]

No, unfortunately. William Wykes.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Bring your mic in.

[William Wykes]

Just a. There we go. Is that better? Yeah. Wikes. Wikes.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[William Wykes]

I've White farm cheese of the Midlands. Supposedly something to do with that. It's probably nothing to do with that, but it's a. It's a name that has originated from the Midlands of England. And I moved up to Scotland with my family when I was five. Five years old. So 33 years in Scotland now. So I'm Scottish, just about local in my local town, so.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

And you're a duck hunter?

[William Wykes]

No, no. Like my compatriots have just said, it's. There is a distinction between the two duck hunters. Certainly the duck hunters, I know, they go out expecting to get a duck. We go out expecting to be out there. And if we put our work in and we get a shot and we get a duck, then well be it. But we're not. We're not upset if we don't get a duck. We're there to take in the world around us. It's. The wildfowling is an escape on its own. The pressures of life get to us all and we all have our own thing that we like to do. But as you say, it's. I would never turn my nose down at somebody because I've been given opportunities which other people haven't. I've been brought. My father got into Wildfireland when he was early teens. My grandfather didn't do it. How my father got into it, I don't really know. I think he just read the old books and just thought, this is something I could get into. And I've had that opportunity given to me and passed down, hopefully, the. The rights and wrongs of what we should be doing, how we should be acting accordingly to support local communities and our local area and the likes of coming. Coming down here like we're guests and someone else's Marshall. We treat that with respect. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's. We don't expect anything. Like, I was kindly invited down here to join you guys and I had no expectations of getting a goose. I didn't fire a shot this morning. Brand new marsh for me. It was just something completely new for me. And like, I've chased geese all around the country, all around England, all around Scotland, but every marsh, there's something special about it. It's just something different. And that's half the enjoyment. You're going out and you're seeing these places with people that, you know, have the same feelings about it as you. It's not just a case of, here's my money, put me some. Put some ducks in front of me.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

So this ethos, and this is sort of part of why we're here, right? The ethos that Andy has, the ethos that Chris has, the ethos that you three have. One of the things that I'm seeing from Andy and Chris is that there's. There's not. There's not many people coming up behind you guys and. And maybe Will's probably more sort of engaged in this. I. And I don't mean to disparage you too, in terms of social media and the hunting community space in that space, but it almost feels like this idea that you just described, which is I'm coming to a marsh with no expectations of actually killing anything is actually a foreign concept to hunters. Coming up, upcoming hunters. It's this. Because of the social media world that we live in and the photos and the likes and the dopamine hit that you get from people going, man, look at them. How many ducks you killed. It's almost that not killing anything is a bad thing. And, and you hear people say and I've asked this to Andy and I've asked this Christian, I'd love to hear your three opinions on what I'm about to say. People it. They almost are sad or maybe sad's not the right word. Disappointed. And they're expressing their disappointment to their community that's watching them as a. I didn't get my limit today. You know, damn. It wasn't, it wasn't a good day. I didn't get my limit today.

[William Wykes]

Yep, totally agree. The, the what you say about youngsters coming in the social media aspect of it and obviously in the uk hunt, hunting wildfire link shooting as we know it is such a small part of now our social fabric that like everybody up and coming into this sport looks at America and they get the YouTube videos and everybody's chasing the limits. And I. It's a one that I absolutely hate. You should never ever set that as a limit to. That's your maximum you can shoot. So you should probably. One badge should probably with two bands you shouldn't be given a limit of like fortunately in this country we don't have limits. Like various parts of the world in the, in the UK where if people want to keep shooting they can and that's totally unsustainable, unethical. But when you put a number on something say 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, that automatically makes that. That target. 5 is that target you need to reach out. Unless you've reached that, that's not a good day. And it's, it's, it's a complete wrong E force of. We're not market gunning anymore. We're not market hunting. We're not, we're not good a house full of kids that need fed. This is purely. We're doing this now as a, a lifestyle choice and we shouldn't enjoy every moment of it.

[Dave Upton]

In my opinion Dave, a lot of I mean clubs put limits on birds because it's maybe a marsh that holds a lot of birds but they put these rules in on account of the exception one of the two individuals who were prepared to go beyond that. But wildfalling is a, it's a self regulating spot. You would take what you need, what you can deal with. You know. And again it's. And you know the reason that you're shooting that bed is to eat the bed, you know, process that bed and enjoy a meal from it. And like Will said it is that lifestyle that you, you'd sooner do. You'd sooner be shooting something that's free range and Organic as opposed to, you know, getting whatever down at the supermarket.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Gerona.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Yeah, basically our ethos was instilled, used to be instilled from birth within the family. So people who went out shooting would say whatever you shoot you must eat. So therefore having a, having five, six, seven, eight people behind a hide smashing the out of bunches of birds is not what we like to do really. It just sit. We think it brings the sport into disrepute. It looks bad to the public, to people who aren't informed, it looks bad to me. I don't like seeing it. And if I go to watch an American YouTube channel and it says limit reached, I'll skip by. So I'm interested in how many birds you see. I just want to see you waterfalling really. So the difference in cultures is vast between there and here and virtually every other country in the world. I don't think anybody self regulates like we do in this country. And that's the way of just social media has seemed to have just highlighted it and made it worse I think.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Well you, you said something in your response to me that the sort of reaching of limits like going for that is unethical.

[William Wykes]

Well yes, anything you do can, it can be unethical. But if a mandatory limit has been put on something by a government body the likes of you guys in the USA you've got a lot more research and stuff been put in every year. You get your bag limits of what you can shoot and on paper every, everybody shoots that amount and it should be good, that's okay. But if I've got a limit of five, but I know at the end of the week I'm going away with a family, I'm not going to get those five processed in time. I like eating my birds fresh so I shoot. I'm fortunate enough to live three minutes away from my marsh. So very rarely anything goes in the freezer all eaten fresh. So if I know at the end of say this week I'm going away, the kids want something to do. I'm not going to shoot five knowing that I've got two extra birds which I don't want to have to process and chuck in the freezer, that's likely going to end up in the bottom of the freezer forgotten about until the middle of next summer. And you go oh God, there's a duck sitting there. What am I going to do with this whole freeze bun piece of meat when I could have limited myself to shoot three which I know will feed me a lunch a couple of Dinners and then stop and then I'm in that fortunate situation. If I want a few more, I'll go out another day. But to set yourself this limit of I must fulfill those five bombs every day.

[Dave Upton]

Five.

[William Wykes]

Whatever the limit is. If you, it's, it's like given a speed limit there's some people will stick under the speed limit and other people. The speed limits the target, you need to get to it. And it's how different people perceive being told what they can and can't do. Some people see it as a regulatory structure and other people see it as a target. Must get that five. If we haven't got five, we've had a bad day. And it shouldn't. Every day on the water, every day on the Mars should be a good day. It's a day where we're not at work. It's a day when the house isn't falling down around us. Yeah. It's, it's. We should, we should take every blessing. We get to be able to do the things we enjoy without having a, like a, a target to have to reach to make that day a good day.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah. Let me, let me sort of give some people some context to what wild fouling looks like in the uk. So correct me if I'm wrong. Here you have about 180, 190 day season. Right. September through September through till end of

[William Wykes]

February, February 20th below the mean high water mark.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

So that's six months.

[William Wykes]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

So six times 380 days. Okay. You can hunt every single day of those 180 days.

[William Wykes]

Sunday is not in Scotland and certain places in England.

[Dave Upton]

Certain. Yeah. Counties and England Sundays. But yeah, I go to church on Sunday.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay. No hunting on Sunday. Okay. Here's one that will blow people's mind. You can hunt all day and all night.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Yep.

[William Wykes]

In some locations. Yes.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yep. Some locations, yes. Last one. That will blow people's mind. No back limits.

[Dave Upton]

No.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

You can shoot as many birds as you want. You can shoot as many geese as you want, correct? Yep. This is an audio medium world. You can't just shake your have to say yes.

[Dave Upton]

Unless. Unless it was. You're shooting on a club.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. Okay, so now you all belong to wild filing clubs, right?

[Gerard Carlisle]

Yep.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

And those wild filing clubs say we hear you UK government, but that's not what we want to do. That's not the tradition of wild filing in this country. So here what I've learned from Andy and I would, I'd love to hear from what your each wild filing Clubs have in terms of regulations, self regulations here, Andy. They have a different structure on L than they do in Preston. Liam. You can't hunt. I think it's Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturdays when they hunt. So three days rest, four days hunting. They don't have a limit in terms of hours you can be out on the marsh. They have a 10 bag, a 10 bird bag limit. They have a four bag G goose limit. Preston. You, they can hunt seven days a week, but you as an individual hunter can only hunt three of those seven days. They have a marsh off time at 9 o' clock in the morning and a marsh on time at 4 o' clock in the afternoon, but also off at 7pm unless it's a new moon, then you can go till midnight, which is blowing people's minds that I'm taking photographs at night saying we literally just got to the marsh to start hunting in the dark, which in American terms is illegal. Can't shoot after 30 minutes after sunset. Yep. And there's a specific time in the morning, 6:23 for instance that you can fire your first shot. Yeah. And again somebody said, oh, we'll go out at six o' clock in the morning. Like we're out there tonight, this morning in the pitch dark and if a bird had come over we could shoot it. It's not like you have to wait until sunrise. So I'll start with you, Gerard. What, what, what self regulations do you guys have in your wildfounding club?

[Gerard Carlisle]

In my, in the Phantom Wildfire association we adopt the Basque code of practice. Okay, so that is 10 ducks but no potchered and one pintail. And then there's a limit on gray geese. You shoot as well.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

You don't put any other self regulations on yourself.

[Gerard Carlisle]

You, you can do.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

But no, you guys don't. No.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Dave.

[Dave Upton]

Yeah. Back on the Humber on Hulu shrouding. We again it's, it's self regulating. We don't have any limits. But you see the beds we get are, they're never usually there quite that long. They're in and then they're moving on again. Whereas such as like here at Litham and Mor they've got these beds throughout the season. This is why they have to put the limits on, otherwise it just get abused. You know, we, we can make on a bit in the October, but come the November, you know, the estuary can be fairly empty. So you know, we take the roof with the smooth round. If, if, if somebody was there and we thought the shot enough, it would Be frowned upon.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

What do you mean?

[Dave Upton]

Possibly if they was doing it regularly.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Who determines that?

[Dave Upton]

The committee of the club.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

And what does that look like? Tell me what that would look like. If you think somebody shot too much,

[Dave Upton]

especially probably when in some hard weather when birds are looking, you know, to be in green areas and you know, parts like that where someone would abuse the situation, they'd go there one day, then they'd be there the next day, maybe the day after that. But if that was the case, they would, they would come up in front of the committee and it seems bringing the sport into disrepute.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

It seems very gray. If I was the guy going out there. Day one, day two, day three, in my mind I'm just, I'm. I'm hunting. I'm allowed to.

[Dave Upton]

Right. It's like I said earlier, if you, if most genuine W followers self regulate, if you've been out there and shot 10 ducks and a couple of three geese, why would you want to be there the next day doing exactly the same? You've got those birds to deal with. You see what I mean?

[Interviewer/Moderator]

No, I see what you mean. And again, what I'm trying to get at here is there is a, is a vast difference because I could see the, the vast duck hunting audience in the United States would be the individual you just described.

[Dave Upton]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Had a fantastic shoot this morning. Got our six bird limit because in the States there's a six bird limit. We're going out tomorrow morning, we're going to smash them again.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Yep.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

And we're going to smash them again on Thursday. We're going to again on Friday.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Everybody has that mindset. But then you have to have in your, in the back of your mind some restraint, especially in bad weather, because you can bag up because the birds are desperate and you can defeat them easily. And that's where the problem lies.

[Dave Upton]

This is why in this country we have a hard weather ban. You know, if you get 14 days of continuous hard frost, then the, a national ban will come in for, for duck and for the, for the sake of the birds. Yeah.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Duck and gays.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah.

[Dave Upton]

Yeah. And that's happened several times in my lifetime.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

See, that wouldn't happen in the States. No, that would actually, that's actually what

[Dave Upton]

you want because the wildfowlers are all for that. Because if you shoot birds in those conditions there is there as thin as razor blades, they're not worth, they're not worth shooting. And the birds are actually struggling. But that's, that's the wildfire and that's the clubs. But beyond the sea wall on private land they could be shooting no enderbirds without any respect for the quarry

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Will, what do you guys do?

[William Wykes]

Well, I'll throw a big spanner in the works on this because being north of the border in Scotland we're a completely different. As we were discussing earlier over breakfast, we're a completely different legal framework regards to access onto the. The marsh area. Ownership of marsh area. In England, wildfowling clubs have exclusive rights to that area which they either they own or they rent.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Right.

[William Wykes]

Whereas in Scotland if you're below that mean high water mark as it's stated on the map public that is technically it's called Crown foreshore. It's owned by the Crown, the monarchy and everybody has a right to recreation on that for sure. Whether that be dog walking while fouling. Go out there and fly a kite.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

But the foreshore looks like this. Like we were out there today.

[William Wykes]

Same same pretty all good differences regarding.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

And people would be walking their dogs out on that muck.

[William Wykes]

Not so much on the muck but at the back of the marsh. Like in the path that we walked out. You guys were in a different place but we had a path to walk out. Hard standing hard path like that. It's just ideal. Dog walkers out. Sure, sure. Yeah. It's not. Some dog walkers aren't such a huge problem in my area in Scotland because Samarsh is such an inhospitable area. But also my area we're in a. Also another spanner in the works. We entered into what's called the local nature reserve, a national designation and our area of marsh. The club owns 160 acre marsh and 30 acres inland which was converted into a reserve area. It's all. The shooting area is covered by a permit system which so if club members get a seasonal permit to shoot on that marsh as and when We've got a 12 o' clock noon limit have to be off back on we can go then back on at three o' clock moons we can shoot four nights before full moon, the night of the moon and four nights after. So those nights we can. We can. If we really wanted to we could go out as it gets dark, set out all night until next morning perfectly. But it's the way the tides work and the moon. Moon cycle works. It wouldn't ever. You'd never do that because sure you, you, you go out as the tide's flooding and pushing buds around and then once that tide starts slacking them back the buds will go out onto the Mud. And you're sitting there all night for no reason. But the rest of Scotland's not like that. Like, yes, there's ODD rspb, which is a, an organization we all love to moan about in the uk, own areas off Scotland which have been made into nature reserves, which are no go areas. So it's a, there's, there's a kind of mosaic of places you can go and can't, but the places you can go are getting fewer and far further between. So there's still the same amount of people wanting to shoot. So these areas are getting more pressure, more, it's more conflict even between wildfowlers.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Do you guys have waiting lists of people to get into your clubs?

[William Wykes]

Not. No, not in our club, no. Where again, no, not so much.

[Dave Upton]

You apply and then,

[William Wykes]

you know, it

[Dave Upton]

comes in front of the committee. Does anybody know this person? Well, then they come for an interview, but not so much awaiting this. I know some clubs do, I know Lytham Club does.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

But Lytham and Preston have waiting lists.

[Dave Upton]

But like, like, you know, they have to have the badge. You see, this is, this is the thing. And yeah, it's crazy.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

I was, was talking to Andy this morning. The process, like I, I almost wanted to tell him, I said the reason why you're worried about youngsters getting in here is number one, they can't get in here. You got a list, they've cut it off of 50. They probably have a waiting list of 100 if they could have one. And then once you get off the waiting list, you got a two year probationary period.

[Podcast Host]

It makes sense.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

I get it. Right, I get it. But there's also consequences.

[William Wykes]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

You're not getting the people in that you really need to get in because you're making the, the barrier of entry so high.

[Dave Upton]

Well, most clubs they will take in juniors but there's always somebody there who's responsible for them.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah.

[Dave Upton]

So there's no, there's no reason for stopping any juniors joining any club in, in Scotland.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Do you find that, you know, something we talked about over breakfast slash lunch, you find, you know, the term in America is Karen's people coming on and going. We see you hunting, we don't like you hunting, so I'm going to interfere with you hunting. Obviously it wouldn't be with you guys,

[William Wykes]

but yes, yes, I'm very fortunate in my little quiet corner of Scotland. It's not an issue as such. Like we're quite a sparsely populated area. The local community quite accepts the Wildfellow Club where we're a big part of the community. We're involved in some community community events. It's getting worse overly I've been now wildfireling for 20 nearly nine years and I've noticed the change like the the incomers into the village they hear shots going off and you start getting kind of calls for what's going on here and why is this happening and and then like I had one incident only a year ago where there's a a public road goes over a bridge and somebody had taken a photo put it on Facebook and said one of these nasty wildfires has shot a swan and just it was a photo of like looking over the bridge into the water. No something white laying in the water and so like obviously being secretary of the local club and not even on our ground but anything that kind of happens I want to be on it.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah. You want to investigate it.

[William Wykes]

I want to investigate what's going on straight down it was a dead sheep. Dead sheep laying in the water so and yeah and I'll give this current an absolute what for on Facebook to go and you're just smearing something you don't like you've no evidence to back up your claims there's a dead sheep in the war which you probably should have admittedly gone seen the farmer about it's nothing to do all fellows but you're just smearing it. But again we're looking in my area we're lucky further like there's lots of estuaries around Scotland and where there's a higher population center quite close by shots ringing out in the morning it's a regular occurrence the police have owned on people in Scotland while fouling legally and the problem is police don't know if a low as soon as firearms are mentioned on a police report it all goes to pot and as firearms teams arrive and and people thankfully never happened to me but it's not a nice thing to happen. You're doing something legally going about your day and you get back to your car and there's a firearms response unit with a gun's point at you and it's happened to some of my friends up around the central belt and that's just members of the public who don't understand what's going on. They hear a shot and the police again some police forces are great some noviceco then others are certainly again in the central belt where it's a far more urbanized area where first question ask who have you got permission for from to shoot here and when you try and explain you're on crown for sure.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

They don't understand.

[William Wykes]

They don't understand that. So guns get lifted, which. Quite right. If there's a firearms offense going on,

[Interviewer/Moderator]

do the firearms response unity understand that

[William Wykes]

it's getting better but you still get some.

[Dave Upton]

They're not. They're still not fully conversed. No. But like. Like Will said earlier, it's. It's incomers to areas. People out with towns want the life in the country but they're not prepared to accept what goes on in the country.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Right.

[Dave Upton]

They complain about the smells, they complain about the dust, they'll complain about everything. And wildfire is one of those things. Whereas the locals have lived there for years. Accept it. That's always been done.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

You know, is the. Is the majority of estuaries up and around the UK have wildfowling clubs.

[Dave Upton]

I would say the majority, yeah.

[William Wykes]

In. In England anyway. Scotland's again different because a while a wildflower and club can. Could set up potentially on any estuary in Scotland, a local. A group of local guys, but they've got no control over who goes on that estuary.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

But you said you owned. We.

[William Wykes]

Yes, we own like. We're one of the few clubs in Scotland to actually own a piece of marsh on the estuary. And the local nature reserve designation, the permits ensures that we can have some element of control over that area. But further other places around Scotland where this right to recreate still installed on the ground. Likes us 4 could set a club up on a small estuary in Scotland.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

But.

[William Wykes]

But we've got no legal repercussion to

[Interviewer/Moderator]

hold on to it. Lose.

[William Wykes]

Hold on to anything like that. Well, not even losing. Right. It's just to start. If, like. If we've got. Like Dave said earlier, if. If you got a lad that's going out every morning, bang, bang, bang, filling his bags full of duck, you can't. You can't go to him and say, right, you off for Marsh? Because he'll just put his middle finger up at you and say, I've got every right to be here and carry on doing what he's doing and shoot

[Interviewer/Moderator]

as much as I want.

[Dave Upton]

Yeah.

[William Wykes]

And like that's. And like this. There's teams of French guns, Italians, they're all doing that. They just go up and they're happy to pay big money for. And that's when we really started getting into the nitty gritty of guides. Guiding is a big issue in Scotland. A lot of money involved in it.

[Dave Upton]

That's where the commercialism comes in.

[William Wykes]

Yeah. The commercial, commercial side of shooting in Scotland. Is ruining while failing as we know it. Because you've got guides that rent huge swabs of inland ground to decoy geese. But then if they've not had a good do on the geese, they know they can legally take a team of guns out onto the photoshoot, line them up, say shoot at what you want, pay me 50 quid, 70 quid each and then we'll go away and do something else. And there's no legal framework to stop that happening.

[Dave Upton]

The way ahead with clubs these days is land purchase. You know, we realized that years ago and I mean we, we own land which is adjacent to the Pimberwealth own refuge but that'll always sustain our access, you know, to the shore. And then the mud is leased from ABP which is associated British ports. You know, we have that lease there, but we've always access to that. But along with the shoot, shooting these days, it's, it's not just a matter of forming a club. And that's it. We'll shoot this area of marsh. All you shoot now has to be consented. Every club now has to put in a consent, a notice of intent to shoot. And then it's looked at from by Natural England which is a government body of defra. And then they'll give you probably a five year consent to carry on doing that. You've always done. But sometimes they'll, they'll look at bad numbers. Maybe pintail have gone down in one certain area. So they'll impose a restriction, say, well you're only allowed to shoot so many pintail in that particular month.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

But I thought Natural England has already said there's no limits.

[Dave Upton]

No, not Natural England.

[William Wykes]

No.

[Dave Upton]

They can impose limits in specific areas if numbers have gone down or if a bird's red listed.

[William Wykes]

The Countryside and Wildlife Act. 81 I think it was 81 it basically stated we could shoot wildfowl. And under that law there was no regulatory structure for a bag limit. But under the consenting this again mainly affects English mark the English areas of the spa.

[Dave Upton]

Special Special Protection.

[William Wykes]

Special Protection Areas. EPEs and Triple SIS. It's all there.

[Dave Upton]

We're all industries now are pretty much.

[William Wykes]

They're all, they're all designated areas under some sort of protocol. And then on, on top of that, because it's a designated area, the lights naturally can come in and see under the precautionary principle your pintail numbers have gone down. So you're not allowed to shoot any more pintail. But then the stickler is that those. How many pintail that are on the estuary can fly inland to a fed feed flight pond. Are there.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Is there wild fowling in Ireland?

[William Wykes]

Yes and the same situation.

[Dave Upton]

This is pretty well Northern Ireland will be the same.

[William Wykes]

Northern Ireland's pretty much the same if it was Stranford Lock. And it's a contentious issue again of the as Gerard said that wild fouling is in the UK is classically known as below tidal air high tide Mark. Whereas the boys in Northern Ireland. I've shot Northern Ireland quite a lot and they get quite offended when you see to them wildfirel isn't on like so the big loch nest inland body of water in the uk you're not

[Interviewer/Moderator]

a wildfowl if you shoot that.

[William Wykes]

Well that's. They get offended if you don't say that because like it's as big as the years later loch Nee as a body of water is bigger than my local estuary. Yeah And I find it hard past anybody to see it's not. It's not as dangerous. Yes. You've not got water rising up and down but Loch Ne the wave length short like going out in a boat and it I've seen still.

[Dave Upton]

Still pretty much hardcore.

[William Wykes]

Oh it's. It's unbelievable. And yeah. So are you guys.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

It seems like you guys are Gerald ask you this seems like you. You. It's almost like a pride thing that wild fouling is hard.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Yeah that is. That is one of the attractions of it or the main attraction. It's an adventure I suppose.

[William Wykes]

Yeah.

[Gerard Carlisle]

So some people want to climb Everest, other people want to have hardship to try and achieve a goal and that. And the goal is waterfall and yeah definitely high tides, big wind. Danger in a challenge.

[Dave Upton]

A bit of a challenge.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Yeah. I like, I like a challenge.

[Dave Upton]

It's.

[William Wykes]

It's, it's.

[Dave Upton]

It's.

[William Wykes]

It's a whole. It's. It's the whole concept of like you know the birds are out there, they're feeding in there. You need the tides to shift them at a certain time of the day with a certain amount of wind to get them to fly over here. And you need to try and get yourself in underneath them. And then when you do all that and the stars align and it comes right they then need to be low enough to shoot which when the goose sight is world is as me and Gerald talking about this morning like what you guys over in America would call sky blasting is our everyday shooting. Like I'll put my 10 bore pattern it to 65 yards with the intent to shoot it at 65 yards if I did that over in the States. I'd be kick kicked out of most duck clubs. And then like we've got the, like Dave here using a double 8 bore. My father uses. Did use an 8 BO. He's now retired from shoulder gunning, but there's some big single four bars getting used.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

What's your distance shooting on your, on your eight ball. And Americans have never heard of an eight ball, by the way. Yeah, a bigger choke tube than a 10.

[Podcast Host]

It's a 10.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

It's an eight gauge.

[Dave Upton]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 50 yards is what you would class as a good clean killing range with an 8. You know, you could get them that little bit higher or you don't be shooting them just too much lower than that because that's what they were designed for, for, you know, a large shot charge which will do the business, a good range. Whereas the 12 bar will be sort of losing out by then. But that's, that's the, the traditional part of. It's not everybody's cup of tea. They can't be bothered to load cartridges or.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah, because you're not being able to. You're not buying eight ball cartridges

[Dave Upton]

or fours. Or fours. But it's, it's just the same as, you know, the old bloke down the road, he's got an old Humber car or the old block with a BSA motor mic, you know. Yeah. If he wants to keep it running that good on him. And I'm the same with, you know, my traditional fouling pieces, as we call them.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Explain to you why said a six ball. Are there no such things six balls with muzzle loaders?

[Dave Upton]

Well, my brother, he does a lot of muzzle loading.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[Dave Upton]

Now some of the guns he has, they were built in 1830, but you know, they're shooting as good and probably better than from when the day they were made. But it keeps them going. And we're just custodians of these guns and hopefully it'll, it'll carry on.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Well, it speaks to the tradition. Right. Yeah, that's. That's the thing again, part of everything that you guys have been talking about hardships, but also tradition.

[Dave Upton]

But we have all different aspects of Wild Horn. And see, you can go decoy in a channel, you know, Tad flight in, you know, flying them in the morning, night, moonshooting. Even to the point where if you want to do it even hard, who's going out with the boats or our punk gun in that that we have now, you know, it's synonymous just to

[Interviewer/Moderator]

this country and those things like Decoying very much are still. Still traditional. Like today they're just using silhouettes or socks.

[Dave Upton]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

You're not using the, you know, again, in America. I hate to keep referring to it, but you know, four or five dozen decoys that are $200 a dozen, you know, so there's $1,000 worth of decoys out there. Brand spanking new. The latest 3D technology.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Well, people started off using bits of white paper to replicate the white on a bird. And some people still do that today.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Then I progressed cutting out a silhouette of a plywood of the back of a goose and painting, hand painting it.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah.

[Gerard Carlisle]

And you stick it upright in the ground at 45 degrees. Yep.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Still today.

[Gerard Carlisle]

They still do that today. Yeah. All that's still viable today. You don't have to buy expensive decoys but still work.

[Dave Upton]

The expensive decoy is a bit like the trout flies to the fishermen. You know, they're there to attract the trout fishermen and those fancy decoys there to attract the, the wildfaller or duck hunter as you call it.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Not the, not the, the quarry itself.

[Dave Upton]

I mean I've shot, I've shot birds of decoys. They've been turned upside down, laid, flashed, everybody. If they're coming in, they're coming in, you know. Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

You talked about the traditionalist thing, obviously, night shooting. We've talked about night shooting being completely antithetical. Right.

[William Wykes]

Stream of the crop.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

It's. And that's what everyone says it's like. And I didn't understand it until I got to do it two days ago. You know, how do you even see the ducks? Right. Well, the UK weather is favorable to that clouds. Little bit of light bounces off the clouds. You see the silhouette, shoot the silhouette. And there's only a couple of birds that given the way that they look, are not on the quarry species. I. E. Can't shoot them. But correct me if I'm wrong, are they flying at night? A Sheldex flies at night, right?

[Gerard Carlisle]

Yeah. They will do.

[Dave Upton]

Yeah. Okay. Especially if they move by the tide.

[William Wykes]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

It was just, it's just. Yeah. When you, if you don't understand it and again the, you know, our, our brain coming from the United States this once it's 30 minutes after sunset. It's done. Yeah. Illegal.

[Dave Upton]

But it, you know, shooting birds under the bone, it's. It's magical that you're out there and I mean there's only certain species who mainly move and go into feed, which is usually pink footed geese and widget. But you see, they're the purest wild duck and the purest wild goose. And they'll take every opportunity they can if that tides moving, if the weather's hard and they've got a sugar beet field just above, beyond the sea wall, if they can just lip over the top and go into feed under the moon, under light, they will do rather than sat out there, you know, they might as well go then and get a good feed. And if you're there to intercept them, I mean, you know.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Well, I think that's the thing. Another piece of information that I don't think a lot of people understand is ducks fly all night.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Ducks can fly in the most atrocious weather at night and still see to get about. Right.

[Dave Upton]

But you see the nocturnal feeders anywhere. So you know, that dictates that, you know they will be on the move looking, looking for food. Whereas your geese are daytime feeders. But like I said, if they've got the opportunity under moonlight to go in and get an extra feed, they will do.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

So we talk tradition. Another piece of traditional gear is the punt gun. And you will are the only punt gunner here. I'm. Are you a punt gunner too, Dave? So punt gunning is again, one of the things that was completely outlawed in the United States was seen as the poaching mechanism.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Yes. Because they shot so many birds. It was a market gun. As it did. It was a market gun, so many birds. And they did the same over here.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[Gerard Carlisle]

But the way they dealt with it here was they just made it illegal to sell wild geese. So therefore you can shoot them, but you can't sell them. So what you're going to do with them.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Same with wildfowl.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Yep.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

You can't sell wildfire.

[Gerard Carlisle]

You can sell ducks, but you can't sell geese.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[Dave Upton]

You, you could sell ducks, but some clubs imposing rules that if you shoot any ducks on your club marsh, you can't sell them.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Gotcha. Gotcha. So how do you, you two are punt gunners? Maybe I'll ask the first question. Like, you know, to your point earlier, you're like, I'm only going to shoot three birds because I don't need five. But you'll go out and punt gun. And the reason you punt gun is, I dare I say to shoot more birds.

[William Wykes]

And I'll see you wrong.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[William Wykes]

Because I'll, I'll say it right now, us four could sit around what you guys would call a baited pond, which is a regular occurrence in, in the uk and kill far more bonds and will ever, ever kill with A punt gun. The, the, the literature has been somewhat skewed over the years, especially in the US with it being outlawed for. So, like, I don't know, off top of my head when it was outlawed, sure. But because it's not been done for so long, the old Chinese West Bros gets in and a story of a man shooting a handful, then turns in, is shot two handfuls. And then over the years more stories come out. Like the big story of people who don't understand punt gunning. Even in the uk between the UK shooting community. Oh, we used to fill the garden with nuts and bolts and bits and nail. Well, back in those days, it wasn't the manufacturer of nuts and bolts. Like every nut and bolt made for a machine was handmade. So it wasn't just random old bits of nut and bolt because they weren't available. The one thing that was truly available to a punt gunner back in the market gunning days of the UK was lead shot as ship ballast. So it was readily available. So I go out punt gunning not to kill birds. I go out punt gunning to keep that tradition, tradition, that area of the sport going, yes, I'll, I'll take a few birds. But that's, that's a choice I make if, if I can take. Like I've had opportunities to take big shots. I've had opportunities take little shots. I've had opportunities to take no shots. It's such hard work for such little gain and you choose where you put the gun. I couldn't shoot off the edge of a pack. Like, I'm not able to kill a lot of birds. I can shoot off the edge of a pack if I want. I'm still stoked about pack of birds across a mile of nothingness. I'm, I'm not, I'm not brushed up. I'm not. I am literally using the light conditions, the mud bank conditions, and hoping that the hundred pairs of eyes looking at me doesn't see me. And then if I can take a little shot off the end of those and then get half a dozen, I'm over the moon.

[Gerard Carlisle]

It's also, it's also extremely hard to get the correct condition to do that.

[William Wykes]

Yeah.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Because you cannot have much wind or waves. The tires got to be right, the wind's got to be right. The weather has to be perfect. There's only a few days in every season you can get out generally anyway.

[Dave Upton]

But you, you talk to anybody in a stalking spot, deer stalker. It's a thrill of the stalk. The end result is A shot and the kill. But that's just the end result. The thrill is being out there at one with nature. All the conditions you got to combat with seamanship, weather, tidal conditions, everything, everything's against you. Like Will said, you know, there might be 100 ducks there, but that's, you know, 100 pairs of eyes. They're all looking at you, unless they're facing the other way. But it's, you know, it's.

[William Wykes]

So you're not.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

You're saying to me, both of you, it's not an easy way to shoot ducks.

[William Wykes]

No, you're out before. Before light. Like my. My usual spell is, I'll get out before. Like you use the tides. Punt gunning. We go out with the tide.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Explain what your punt gun looks like.

[William Wykes]

Well, my gun is an inch and 38 internal diameter.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

So it's a two ball.

[William Wykes]

It's slightly bigger than turbo, I think. Whatever.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

So it's a one and three quarter ball. No, essentially no.

[William Wykes]

Three eight and three is. My God.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Inch and three eight.

[William Wykes]

Yeah. You're gone.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Holy smokes.

[William Wykes]

Yours are bigger gun.

[Dave Upton]

Yeah, man's a inch and five eights.

[William Wykes]

And then legally allowed up to inch and three quarter in the UK now.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[William Wykes]

But then back in the day.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

And how big is the cartridge that's going in the back? The cartridge six inches.

[William Wykes]

Longer.

[Dave Upton]

Longer.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Holy.

[William Wykes]

I should have brought one.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Really.

[Dave Upton]

Like a donkey's knob.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Look, I don't know what a donkey. You must know what a donkey's knob looks like, Dave.

[Gerard Carlisle]

He's got one. Is it a pound of shot?

[Dave Upton]

You.

[Gerard Carlisle]

What was your shoot a pounder shot?

[William Wykes]

No, no, my. My gun. My dad built the gun back in the mid-70s, before.

[Gerard Carlisle]

That's another thing with this sport. They build their own guns and their own boats.

[William Wykes]

Yeah, no, nobody, nobody makes these guns. But back back in the day, Holland and Holland probably made a few.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Are there any of those around that are still being used?

[Dave Upton]

Yeah, yeah, some are, yeah.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah.

[Dave Upton]

But you see, a lot of the gun makers, punk guns were they were done to outdo each other with some fancy lever of some fancy clip. But they're all the things that can go wrong with mud, sand, water. You want the simplest of actions, you know, on a pungum, so there's less to go wrong. So there's a. Basically just a long tube with a breech plug and then an action with the trigger and a firing pin.

[William Wykes]

So, yeah, my. The gun dad built, he's built a number of punt guns, but the One I use, Engine 38 internal diameter bore, it was proofed for a 20 ounce shot load. So pound and a quarter pound a quarter with 3 ounce of black powder behind it. So now with ideally required to use non toxic shot, we originally were able to get a tungsten based material called I don't know if you guys ever had it in America, ITM which was a mix of tungsten plastic polymer.

[Dave Upton]

Yeah, it did, they did because it originally come through Kent.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[William Wykes]

And, and it was.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

And what size are those? Those BB's?

[Dave Upton]

4 mil fours? Yeah, 4 millimeter.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

4 millimeter, what is that?

[William Wykes]

No American ones.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[William Wykes]

It was always known back back in the day, but BB up to treble A was your punch gun shot.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[William Wykes]

Because you could fit a lot of it in the case and you could kill birds at a further range for it. But in this day and age we went on to itm. We, me and my dad didn't get on well with it. It didn't produce the kill. The clean kills we wanted we were expecting. And you ended up chasing wounded birds further than we would like. So we started experimenting, went on to Bismuth. We didn't get on overly well. So I just had the brainwave. And it also came to the fact that ITM then became unobtainable. Our Vashna Kent, which was Gameboard, a kind of partner company stopped. They either stopped importing it or stopped selling it wholesale as a loose product for reloaders. And because of the cost as well, every shot was you were 75 pounds which is nearly $100 every time you pull the string.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Wow.

[William Wykes]

It just became inhibitive to my e force upon gunning where if I was happy killing five ducks, you couldn't justify like I work hard, I don't make a huge volume of money enough to waste £75 every time I pull the string for five ducks. So I went on to start playing about with big steel shot, get on really well with steel shot and the 12 and the 10. And I thought why can't I adapt this into my punt gun scenario? So I, I got in and made more plastic wads and just started experimenting. It turns out if I use the same 3 ounce powder charge and half my shot load to 10 ounce, I'll get a really, really potent load that does everything I need it to.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

What are you using, Dave?

[Dave Upton]

It was the same. You know, we've experimented with steel because it was a matter of having to do. And I know when Will's dad, Alan, when he first started with it years ago and we thought we, we'll give it a try. But we went down the same route and. And had some good success with it, but we, we've had good success with tungsten, you know, so we have that and, and steel as well.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Gotcha.

[Dave Upton]

You know.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

How many, how many punt gunners do you think are still around?

[Dave Upton]

Well, we have a. We have a group that meet every two years and on average there's probably 50 people. 50? You think there's 50 in the country?

[William Wykes]

Not. It's not even active. I reckon the 35 tops. 40 active punt gunners left in the UK, which would probably be the wild.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Wow.

[William Wykes]

Two of them are sitting here.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

That's amazing. And you. There's nobody punt gunning outside of the uk.

[William Wykes]

Possibly one the Holland estuaries. Possibly. I mean.

[Dave Upton]

No, it was. It was banned in.

[William Wykes]

Oh, it was banned, right.

[Dave Upton]

It was banned in Holland on account of the. The owners who had the decoys, the commercial decoys and they said that it was the punk gunners that was checking their share of the ducks.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Right. Gotcha.

[Dave Upton]

There was a lot of well known rich punk gunners who used to specifically go over to Holland. One of them was Raf Payne Galway

[William Wykes]

and

[Dave Upton]

forget his name now. Anyway, they used to go over to Holland but they didn't like the fact that the English was coming over there.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah, for sure.

[Dave Upton]

Killing their ducks. Captain Gold was the other chap.

[Gerard Carlisle]

So you.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

When you're obviously you've got your wildfire, you've got to decide. And it's I guess based on what Gerard said. It's all based on conditions.

[Dave Upton]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Whether or not. Okay, tomorrow is setting up to be perfect for a bunch.

[Gerard Carlisle]

We have to understand how the boat. The boat is. Looks like a little battleship but it's sunk as low as possible into the water. So any amount of waves. And it's very heavy too. So they're hard to maneuver and dodgy and is there.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Somebody was telling me yesterday that there's another. There's a punt gun boat that almost looks like a surfboard. In which. Do they still exist? Where you go over the mud flats and you're using paddles with your hand.

[Gerard Carlisle]

And I used to do it as well.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Does that still exist? Does anybody still do that component?

[William Wykes]

Not so much, no. No. Say they would back it before for what we would now call a traditional deck punt. There was the open Fen punt, which was just a very low boat with a big gun mounted on top and it was open topped.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[William Wykes]

And then. Sorry, Ralph Payne Galway. Come on.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Are you sitting in your pent guns

[William Wykes]

or you're lying laying flat in the punt? The punt is the vessel the punt's the boat.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[William Wykes]

And the gun is the gun.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[William Wykes]

So it's one of my pet peeves. It's like the grit motif when somebody calls it calls the gun the punt. Because the punt is the vessel and you're lying flat. Yeah. Stomach. So you get a double punt which is two man and a single punt which is one man.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[William Wykes]

So it's double punt. You've got your gunner on the front controlling the gun and your polar on the back. Who.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Everybody's lying flat.

[William Wykes]

Laying flat. Yep. As flat a lot for the water as you can get. You've got no cover. Okay.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

And the polar is just. This is low. It's low poling.

[Dave Upton]

There's no engines used there. That's illegal for the pursuit of alpha.

[William Wykes]

Yeah. Handle hand over the side. A setting pole which you have a set of three different pole. I've got three different poles in my pond. A three foot, five foot and a eight foot pole depending on what depth of water.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[William Wykes]

Because we're, we're basically running at low tide in the estuary system. So if you're anything more than certainly what I'm used to, anything over 8 foot in a deep channel, you're doing well and normally the wind's going to take you from one side the other. But there is some estuaries where like it could be a 20 foot channel and there is a method called sculling. I don't know if you know it, it's like a fancy kind of shape pallet. I don't know how to do it because I've never needed to learn. But some punters did skull their punt up to foul in deep water. But more.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

And how close are you getting to your. That you need to get. Obviously you've got a massive gun on the front.

[Dave Upton]

50, 60 yards is a good. A good.

[William Wykes]

Everybody thinks, oh, it's such a big gun, you must kill them. But it's. It's shooting the same size pellets really with a black powder charge. The actual bliss external ballistics of the gun is no different from your 12 bow. You've just got a bigger pattern and more pellets. Okay.

[Dave Upton]

You want to get in close for that close kill. You know, it's again, it's respect for

[Interviewer/Moderator]

your beds and, and is there an elevation dial on the gun itself in terms of like you have a point

[Dave Upton]

level, you have a point of balance where you can tip the gun and the. The gun crutch will move as well. So you can move it left, left to right or up and down.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[Dave Upton]

But you have a rest on a rod which will elevate the gun. As you push down on the gun, you can elevator up so the gun will sit that bit and you're looking

[Interviewer/Moderator]

down an iron sight. Yeah. Really Right.

[William Wykes]

And this is, this is again where it comes from a double punt to a single point. But I love my single punting where I'm doing, I'm pulling with my right hand or left hand depending on the wind direction pull and then I'm manually working the gun with my left hand. So I've got no ability to move the gun. So I need to control the punt. If I need to point the punt direction, I want to shoot in the double punter gun. I've got that ability to move a gun 7, 10 degrees either way and a bit of elevation if needs be. If there's ducks sitting up on a banking.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[William Wykes]

But it's. Yeah, it's just a different way of doing it.

[Dave Upton]

The good thing about double punting is if, if you don't have any success or you miss the shot, you, the puntsman can blame the gunner if you're in a single pun and he is only you to blame.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

And so I guess, I guess my last question. This is obviously shooting a 12 gauge shotgun. There's a recoil. I can only imagine what the recoil is like on a one and three eighths.

[Gerard Carlisle]

I've been in one and I promise you, they go backwards.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

The boat goes backwards backwards.

[Podcast Host]

How does the, how does the gun

[Interviewer/Moderator]

not come through the boat?

[Dave Upton]

Well, it's on a. It's on a breach in Europe and it has two. Well, there's two types. You can either have a pumpkin with trunnions on the, on the sides.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Like a road trunnion.

[Dave Upton]

Yeah. Like you. If he's. If you watch the old, the battleships, the Battle of Trafalgar, they were all running on ropes for the recall. They call them recoil ropes.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Okay.

[Dave Upton]

So you'd have a little round one, it'd go through to the stem of the punt and back up the other side.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[Dave Upton]

And then fasten that side. Or some punts have under deck recalls springs. Either springs are a rope underneath.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Okay.

[Dave Upton]

Fastened to a clamp underneath.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Interesting.

[Dave Upton]

And you can't shoulder them.

[William Wykes]

No. Of course. And the, the old artist.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

You would die.

[William Wykes]

Yeah.

[Gerard Carlisle]

They did have, they did have big guns that were called bank guns.

[William Wykes]

Yeah.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Similar to a place you'd lay on a bank and just fired.

[William Wykes]

Yeah. The other misconception again, going back to bank guns again, this is all back in the market gun in days there's a famous picture of the famous English market gunner Snowden sights with all these big guns laid out and, and it does, it does the tour around Facebook. Every so often somebody else shares it and, and, and again a lot of Americans comment on it going oh, punt guns, punt guns. But majority I would say all of those guns are bank guns. They've all got a shoulder stock on them. Punt guns traditionally don't have a shoulder stock because you never need to shoulder them. They're mounted on front of a punt. Whereas your bank gun, like the same bore, like the same shooting, the same charge, some of them but they're a big shoulder mounted gun for sneaking up over a river bank and loosen off into a pack of duck in a river. So that's why he's got his guns. They're all, I can see it in my head now, he's standing there with, with an almost loader and he's got, he's all these guns laid up behind him and majority of those guns have got a big wooden stop on.

[Dave Upton]

So but a lot of the, the muzzle loading punk guns, they did have a stock on them but they were hurled through the stock.

[William Wykes]

Yes.

[Dave Upton]

And they had a pin through where they would go on what they call a boot jack system. And it was like a board and he would put his weight onto the board and as he fired the gun he would hold down on the board to take the recoil of the gun. That's why they had stocks on. But once we became breach loaders, you know, they were far, far improved after that.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

No, it's unbelievable.

[Dave Upton]

It's not for the faint hearted.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

No, but it's so traditional. It's.

[Dave Upton]

But anything, anything you do, anything we do in wildfalling, you know, you feel justified, morally justified in taking the beds, you know, that you want to shoot because you know it's a surplus to that wild population, you know and, and like I said, I was feel justified by doing what I do.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah, yeah. Last words Gerard on wild fouling. If somebody was interested in wild fouling or what they needed to leave this conversation about with about wildfire.

[Gerard Carlisle]

Most clubs offer a trial day for wildfailing or take you out and they'll show you the ropes, give you a go at it and see what you think. So if you want to get into oil filing, this is all you can do. Contact the club or contact Basque themselves. Yeah, because they have give data intuition on, on the subject. So that's probably the good way and

[Interviewer/Moderator]

that's what I heard with Lytham didn't. Don't, don't do this. But Preston does. If you're on the waiting list, if you're, if you indicated interest, Preston will give you day tickets that you can go with a member and get out on the marsh, which is good, which is what you want to keep them interested.

[Gerard Carlisle]

They'll also have a mentoring scheme. The Phantom Wildfire says has a mentoring scheme. So once you join the club, you go on a WhatsApp mentoring scheme and ask people to take you out because. Because it's dangerous out there.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Sure.

[Gerard Carlisle]

We have to look after the people.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

I have no idea how big the tides are here. And some of those gutters like we went in the first day, you could fit a double decker bus in that gutter and the tide comes roaring in or roaring out and you're not watching.

[Dave Upton]

Yeah.

[Gerard Carlisle]

But if you get several days of northern winds, it keeps the tide in every day. And then one day it will come in and it can be several meters higher than it's predicted.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Unbelievable.

[Gerard Carlisle]

And if you don't know that, go

[Dave Upton]

for a swim where Gerard is on the wash. You know, you, you to get out to the edge. You, you maybe skipped over several big gutters to get out to the. But what you don't realize is that the back filling when the tad comes, if you are out there on a spring tad or something like that, you need to be back. You can't get back. Well, it's. Yeah. Stuck. You're going to be wet she and cold. No, but the thing is that with a sport it's, you know, people need breaking in gently but by like we've seen to go out on a day permit, somebody mentoring them know you wouldn't expect somebody just to join a club and say well there's your permit. Go out and help yourself.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Exactly.

[Dave Upton]

You know, they soon get disillusioned and. But that's the idea of having a mentor with it because they'd explain to you you want to be the here at this certain time. If it's. That's that wind in that quarter, that's a good time for this or whatever, you know. But it's while falling. It's not something you can learn in five minutes. You know, any one of us will admit all the years we've been doing it, you learn something every time, you know.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Unbelievable.

[Dave Upton]

Yeah.

[William Wykes]

Well as what's been relayed, it's not a, it's not something you can just jump into without any. Not training but mentorship like we're talking about shooting under the moon. Earlier, like, there is certainly up to me, Barnacle geese are protected species. They fly in, in among the pinks and you are shooting in moonlight. And it's not just for somebody to go out there and say, oh, there's a goose, let's shoot it. It's. It's.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Need to know what you're doing.

[William Wykes]

You need to know what you're doing. Again, need to know what the tides are doing. We're on tidal errors and yeah, it's not just. It's not just something you can pick up overnight. It's like I say, 28, 28 years up in wildfire now, from a young age. And I learned something new every day and that's why I really enjoyed this opportunity to come down here and explore LivingSmarsh. Because every estuary in the country is different. Have little, little differences or like different, just different fauna, flora on the ground. Even the mud's different. I know that sounds probably naughty from some. For anybody listening that doesn't give two hoots about mud, but some mud that sticks to every inch of you and some is nice and hard and you kneel on it and come off the marsh and your dog's not dirty and you're not dirty. And then other places, it absolute gets everywhere. Yeah. I've seen lads walking off some marshes, but I don't know how they actually managed to get seductive doing it. But it's as if we've been rolling in it.

[Dave Upton]

But.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Well, I told my cameraman the first time they showed me a dirty camera, I said, stop dropping the camera in the mic.

[Podcast Host]

Just stop.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Like it didn't touch the ground once.

[William Wykes]

Yeah, yeah. No, it. It genuinely gets everywhere. And imagine that in a punt.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah.

[William Wykes]

And then like again, my. My father's drilled into me like my mentor and the punt gunning. He says, before you get in that punt, you get your boots clean.

[Dave Upton]

We all carry brushes in there. Clean the cleats out on your. On your boots.

[William Wykes]

And because once it's in the punt, there's. And you're lying down in, it isn't. There's no getting away from it. It just smears and spreads everywhere and it covers everything and it makes for a really unenjoyable day when you're so. Yeah, no, Wildfire on's a magical, magical thing to be able to do. We're very privileged still to do it in the uk. Long may it continue.

[Dave Upton]

It becomes a way of life. Yeah, because you. That's all you talk about during the season because all your mates mostly go shooting as well. So you're talking ducks, geese, whatever, throughout the season, when even at the close of the scene, he's talking it through the summer. Because you're trying different loads out. You maybe got a new dog. You're training that. And I've got some new decoys. And it just goes on and on and on, and it's. That's. It becomes it. It takes over your life.

[William Wykes]

Yep.

[Gerard Carlisle]

It's good for you, in other words.

[Dave Upton]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah. A little bit of heart. Good for the old hurt. Anybody?

[Dave Upton]

Computer room.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Yeah, exactly.

[Dave Upton]

It keeps you fixed.

[William Wykes]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Well, it's a pleasure to meet the three of you.

[Dave Upton]

Thank you very much.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Just again, I'm privileged. I'm privileged to have these kinds of conversations. I'm privileged to learn, as you can tell. I'm super curious about these kinds of things. It's why we're here. And yeah, thank you for the time. And it wasn't too painful, right?

[Gerard Carlisle]

Gerard, the first podcast, we got through it. I'm not a virgin anymore.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

No, you're not a virgin. Exactly. Popped your cherry.

[Dave Upton]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Thanks, guys.

[Dave Upton]

Thank you.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

Well, that's it for today.

[William Wykes]

I appreciate you listening.

[Interviewer/Moderator]

As always, leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.