Episode 646 - Adri Kitshoff Botha || The Stalwart Of The South African Hunting Industry

Summary

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Podcast Summary: The Origins Foundation Podcast

Episode 646 – Adri Kitshoff Botha: The Stalwart Of The South African Hunting Industry
Date: May 26, 2026
Host: The Origins Foundation
Guest: Adri Kitshoff Botha, CEO of Custodians of Professional Hunting and Conservation South Africa

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Episode Overview

In this engaging, in-depth conversation recorded at the Hilton Vienna, host and guest dive into the life and legacy of Adri Kitshoff Botha—a pioneering leader in South Africa's hunting and conservation space. Touching on the evolution of her career, challenges facing the industry, gender dynamics, conservation battles, and the future of hunting in Africa, this episode offers both personal narrative and insights into the broader sustainable use debate.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Setting and Introduction to Adri Kitshoff Botha

• Host introduces Adri as a respected, perhaps under-recognized, pillar in the South African hunting industry.
  • “She is probably the number one organizational industry stalwart for hunting in South Africa, period… just is a machine when it comes to helping the hunting industry move forward.” (00:30)
• Scene is set with the two South Africans sharing breakfast in Vienna, reflecting on memories and the global reach of hunting discussions.

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2. Adri’s Early Life and Path Into the Hunting Industry

[10:12–14:53]

• Unexpected route to conservation: Adri initially worked in administration and government, with no ties to wildlife or hunting.
  • “I started working in Kimberley... at a law firm... then South African Railways and Harbors...” (11:34)
• No hunting background: Family involvement with hunting was minimal—her exposure was limited to food culture, not field experience.
  • “All I knew about it was that in winter time people would have gone hunted and they would have brought back the carcasses... That was what we knew about hunting.” (14:29)
• Entry into the industry: In 2001, she took a finance and marketing role at KZN Hunters and Conservation Association, pushing herself to learn about hunting and firearms legislation.

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3. Learning Curve and Embracing the Industry

[13:32–18:22]

• Adri’s immersion included participation in hunters’ courses and active learning at the shooting range.
• Major milestone: Realization that understanding the legislative side was incomplete without firsthand hunting experience.
  • “But nobody will ever take you serious because you've never hunted... That was in February 2008. And in May 2008, I went on my first hunt.” (18:13)
• Describes her first hunt—a warthog in the Eastern Cape—which fundamentally altered her perception of hunting.
  • “I can remember when I took the shot... It died immediately. But it made a bit of a noise that to me was tough to hear. But you do have a completely different perspective...” (19:18)

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4. Breaking Gender Barriers in a Male-Dominated Field

[16:17–25:39]

• Regularly the only woman in government and association meetings, she reflects on not feeling unwelcome, but acknowledges the uniqueness of her position.
  • “No, it was only me [in the room]. But you know what? They never made me feel unwelcome.” (16:24)
• Notable milestone: Adri appointed as the first female CEO of PHASA (Professional Hunters’ Association of South Africa).
  • “Yes, it was the first see a lady female CEO and I think first lady leadership position anywhere in any hunting organization in South Africa.” (24:24)
• Emphasizes support and mentorship from her male colleagues, which aided her success in leadership roles.

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5. Professional Trajectory and Industry Leadership

[20:24–28:14]

• Details transitions through key industry roles:
  • KZN Hunters ➡️ PHASA ➡️ Wildlife Ranching South Africa (WRSA) ➡️ Retirement ➡️ CEO of Custodians
• Shares the importance of her wide-ranging experience:
  • “You are the queen bee of hunting and the wildlife industry space in South Africa. It makes sense...” (30:08)
• Notes her return from retirement was at the request of industry peers who valued her expertise.

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6. Conservation, Anti-Hunting Sentiment, and Policy Challenges

[33:11–39:55]

• On anti-sustainable use opposition:
  • “I think the anti sustainable use groups are very organized and they've got very good programs to attack what we're doing... But I still think that we’ve got such a passion and we've got such a good track record...” (33:40)
• Biggest risk for the next decade: Political and policy-level influence by organized opposition groups.
  • “I still think the strength or the abilities of the anti sustainable use groups infiltrating policymakers. That might be it.” (34:37)
• Quotas and science: Explains legislative delays in setting hunting quotas for elephant, leopard, and rhino; describes the science supporting these quotas and challenges from court cases.
  • “The quota is scientifically defensible... You can’t give an elephant away for free in South Africa right now… negligible impact on the population... Same with Black Rhino.” (35:58–36:52)
  • “Our official site is leopard quota is 150, which makes sense. Again, the intent of the ministers is now to declare 11, based on feedback...” (37:50)
• Data and Transparency: New camera-trap survey guidelines may help rationalize quota decisions.

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7. Reflections, Legacy, and What’s Next

[39:55–41:50]

• Adri expresses gratitude for ongoing opportunities and stresses enjoyment and purpose in her work.
  • “As long as I love what I do.” (33:07)
• Encourages listeners to visit and learn more; directs them to Custodians’ website and socials for further engagement.
  • “Our website is www.thecustodians.co.za and our contact details is on there.” (41:09)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On learning by doing:
  • “You don't know what you don't know. That's right.” – Adri Kitshoff Botha, reflecting on how her first hunt changed her perspective (19:48)
• On leadership and gender:
  • “Yes, it was the first, the first [female CEO] in a male-dominated environment in 2010.” – Adri Kitshoff Botha (24:53)
• On industry recognition:
  • “Little did I know that you are the queen bee of hunting and the wildlife industry space in South Africa.” – Host (30:08)
• On external threats:
  • “I still think the strength or the abilities of the anti sustainable use groups infiltrating policymakers [is our biggest risk].” – Adri Kitshoff Botha (34:37)
• On the essence of sustainable use:
  • “We’ve got such a good track record of what we're doing is to the best of nature, of habitats, of people, of livelihoods, of animals.” – Adri Kitshoff Botha (33:50)
• On the future:
  • “I think in 10 years time we’ll still be hunting.” – Adri Kitshoff Botha (34:21)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:30 – Adri’s introduction and her importance to the industry
• 10:12 – Adri explains her background and how she entered the hunting world
• 16:24 – Early gender dynamics in a male-dominated industry
• 18:13 – Adri’s first hunt and its personal impact
• 24:24 – Appointment as the first female CEO in the sector
• 33:11 – Discussion on anti-hunting opposition and industry resilience
• 35:58 – South Africa’s science-backed hunting quotas explained
• 37:50 – Leopard survey methodologies and quota adjustments
• 41:09 – Where to find and connect with Custodians

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Final Thoughts

This episode offers a candid look at the realities—triumphs and challenges—of leading within South Africa’s hunting and conservation sector. Adri Kitshoff Botha’s journey from outsider to key organizational leader provides both inspiration and pragmatic insight, while the discussion underscores the importance of science, collaboration, political engagement, and adaptability in sustaining Africa’s wildlife legacy.

Find out more at:
thecustodians.co.za

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Transcript

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[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Audrey Kitsoff Boita is currently the CEO of Custodians. But a lot of people, number one, don't know who Audrey is and number two, don't know that she is probably the number one organizational industry stalwart for hunting in South Africa, period. She's been involved in the hunting industry since the early 2000s and has worked for many, many, many top organizations across South Africa. I consider Audrey a dear friend, a champion of our sustainable use of wildlife community and an individual that just is a machine when it comes to helping the hunting industry move forward. So enjoy.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

So five years ago, there was a reason why I started this movement. And the truth then is the truth now that we need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around what we do and who we are.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

There's a sweet spot where they got, you know, too heavy and it's a burden to walk with. Too light and you whipping it. Why is the project so important to the hunting community? It's. It's a. I think it's not only important, I think it's. I think it's vital. I think it's. It's just in time.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

It's like snakes and ladders.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

You guys climbing the ladder and then

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

somebody does something stupid and you just slide down. That is such an amazing analogy.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Snakes and ladders. Yeah.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

You know, ivory, in my opinion, was the plastic of its age. Okay.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

The expenses are going up. It goes a long way with families. We have families that do need it.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

Let me close this door because I

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

have a little wiener dog.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

What?

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

You are.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

You're laughing because I said wiener.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I'm really glad you finished this. And it's out. I'm sorry. The first happen. What are we doing here today?

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

You're telling the whole world.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Good. That looks good.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Good.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

There's a sign that says Budapest. You could drive to Budapest from here.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I would have loved to. If my husband was with me, I would have. I don't want to do things by myself anymore. New, new places. I want him to go with me. I used to by myself and then I would I didn't have a selfie stick. And I'll give my camera to whoever's around me and just ask to ask him to take a photograph. But I want to. I think you want to make memories.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Were there selfie sticks when you were traveling by yourself?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Look, I'm old, but I'm not that old. That was before Bluetooth selfie sticks.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Hilarious. So we're sitting here in breakfast hall in the Hilton Vienna, Austria. Imagine that, huh?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

No, imagine that.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Two South Africans. American South African and a true South African sitting in Vienna looking out over the street, looking out over Stadtplatz. Yeah, we went to the cathedral last night. That was unbelievable.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Amazing experience.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Experience, yeah. Catholic cathedral. It's the cathedral in Austria. It's the central cathedral in Vienna. Right. Do you know anything about it? I don't know anything about it, no.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I don't know too much about it. But we were. My husband and I were here in 2019. We did a tour of your Europe tour before then, cities, gop. And we went into the cathedral, but it was closed. You would only get into the entrance area where you can light your candle.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

You weren't allowed to go in and have mass.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

And it was my first ever Catholic Mass that I've attended. I go to church every Sunday, but obviously not a Catholic Mass.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

I was telling somebody yesterday, the last time I did a Catholic Mass, I went to Sacred Heart College in Observatory in South Africa. That's where I went to school, which is a Catholic school run by the Sacred Heart Brothers. And so every Friday, we would have mass as a school.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

So do they do the communion thing every day?

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

But the thing is, Sacred Heart College was the first school to open all races and all religions back in 1982. Okay. In South Africa, that was early. So all the expats were there. Like, Nelson Mandela's grandson was in my biology class. And so we'd have Mass every Monday, and obviously we have Muslims and Hindus and everything. So only the Catholics would go up and take Communion. But we all knew when to stand up. We all knew when to sit down. We all knew what to say after the priest had finished saying it. And what I noticed yesterday, because again, dating me a little bit, the last time I was in the Catholic Mass, there was not a single cell phone present ever. Like, that wasn't because in school we didn't have cell phones. Right. And so yesterday, immediately, like, I looked around, you would. You would be a man out of place if you didn't have your cell phone out.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I must say, to me, as well. Before the service started, I think I also took out my cell phone because there was the beautiful music, the organ music and the. What do you call it? The brass.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

The horns? No, it was the horns, the hunting horns.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

That was amazing. But that was before the service. So I also took a video then because it was just to. To be there and to have a memory. That was amazing. But I was quite surprised that people during the course of the service took. Took videos and took their cell phones out.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

That to me was like whilst he was. Whilst he was preaching or whilst he was praying and, you know. But then something just dropped in the kitchen.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

It did. I didn't go up for communion because.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Are you Catholic?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

No, I'm not. I'm not Catholic.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Then you couldn't, you couldn't have gone for communion.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Okay, well, but that's the thing because the whole service was in Austrian. So we had the booklet and you could read follow in English. But I didn't understand what is said. And that is why I thought, well, rather sit down. Don't do something that you're not supposed to do.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

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[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

essentially get off the couch.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

It's a game changer, guys. If you haven't done it yet, do it. The old days of waiting eight to 10 months on a suppressor are gone. It's more like two weeks. Some have even gotten their suppressors in shorter timeframes. It's never been easier to start shooting suppressed. Get started today by visiting silencercentral.com it's really the simplest way to get your suppressors. Bushnell is eager to help you get set up for conservation success. That's right. They want to help you. The conservation and research community is dominated by good people doing good things and investing Significant time and effort for the benefit of habitat and the species. So what do you need to do? Pretty simple. Send us your conservation story and. Or your conservation wish. Could be managing whitetails, could be understanding your environment or species or something else related to conservation. What would you be able to do if you had a great trail camera setup? We will select the best story every other month and send you a camera bundle. Cell camera, normal, SD camera, SD cards, as well as optics. Everything you need to get set up for success. I can't wait to see what you submit. You can email us, DM us, message us whatever you want. We are not hard to find. Good luck.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

So it was only Catholic that you

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

can correct if you've been. If you've been. Oh, what's the word? I should know it. Not baptized. Because that's not what happened. No, no, no, no. You go through communion. You go through communion.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Okay.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

And once you go through communion, then you're essentially a part of the Catholic Church. And that's when you can take communion every Friday whenever you go to mass, which is what? You're eating the body of Christ and you're drinking the blood of Christ.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yeah, well, just as well. I didn't get up because it was explained in Austrian or German or whatever language it was. Whereas we had the printed booklet. Booklet. So we could follow more or less where we are in the program. But yes, I thought I'd rather stay seated.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Well, Audrey, welcome to the Origins foundation podcast. Have you been on here before?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I've been. No, virtually. Well, we've done a long distance telephone call.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

We did a.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

We did a Riverside podcast.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

We did. When Custodians rebranded.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Oh, that's right.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

At the end of 2020.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

But we did that in. We did that in Paris. You, me and Craig.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Craig, yeah. You and I still. You and I still differed about the red in our corner. Corporate image, color.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Oh, did I have an issue with the red?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yeah, you said it was brighter and I said, no, it wasn't all that bright. But it was, it was. It. It was basically the South African sunset. So it's not all that bright. It's like an orangey bright kind of thing.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Stop digging up past history between us, please.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I'm a woman, you know. You do that. We do that. We never forget.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Introduce yourself a little bit because I want to, like, tell people a little bit more about who you are.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Where do I start? So my name is Audrey. My surname is Ketsof Puerto. And that is because my children's surname is Katsuff.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Okay.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

And after I separated from my husband, I decided to keep the name because it's.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

And add back your maiden name and

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

added back my new surname when I.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Well, Miguel.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yeah, yeah.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Mickle.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

M. Like M.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

There we go.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yeah. So, Adrian, I'm currently with the custodians of professional hunting and conservation.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

You're the CEO of custodians?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yes, I am.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

And you threaten to not become the CEO.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I. I thought you.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

I thought you were. I thought you were like, I'm done. Like, I've got one more year. And then all of a sudden, like, oh, Audrey's back for another two years.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

One year more year. I would have been there for three months. I joined them as a consultant, basically. And that was in the time when Sean Kelly was president chairman. Yeah. So. So my history is I was in the South African wildlife industry. Various associations I kicked off, started with.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Why were you even in that industry, by chance? What were you doing before. Let's just. Before you got involved with hunting and wildlife, what were you.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Oh, wow.

[Sponsor/Advertiser Voice]

What were you doing?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I started working in Kimberley in the Northern Cape. People would know about diamonds, know Kimberly in the Northern Cape. And I started working at a law firm for a couple of months after doing a diploma in Pretoria, our capital city. And then I started working for the. Then South African Railways and Harbors, which was a division that fell under the Minister of Transport.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Okay. In for the government. You're working for the government?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Basically, yeah. And then I moved from Kimberly to Johannesburg and I got a position at the parliamentary division. So that was amazing. I was young, and for six months of the year we moved down to Cape Town while parliament was in what, pro process.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

In session.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yeah, in session.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Yeah.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

That would be early January until May. And then we moved back to. To Johannesburg for six months.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Yeah.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

And that was amazing. So I've done that for a couple of years.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Yeah.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

And then I met my then husband and we got married and I had children and I stopped working and a couple of years later, move on. I started working again at Ava's. Not Ava's Car Rental, but Ava's Full Maintenance Leasing, which is the leasing side of a car.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

So what you're saying you had nothing to do with wildlife?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Nothing. Nothing. And then.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

But did you hunt? Did your family hunt? Did you hunt? Family hunt.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Another dad had a shotgun and I know that every winter somebody would have brought him some biltong that he bought and that was it. No, nothing. And then eventually in roundabout 2001, we were living in. In Kwazulu Natal.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Okay.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

And there was a position at the then KZN Hunters and Conservation association, which is an association for.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

And what was that position?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

It was for finance, finances and marketing. Okay, so marketing at a KZN hunting association. I didn't have a clue what hunting was about except enjoying Biltong every winter. So I realized I need to find out more. So I immediately went onto a hunter's course. I started going to the shooting range and that was amazing because the guys really took me under their wing. They taught me how to shoot.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

But you came at it though with no perceived perceptions, no like baggage or anything like that. Man, I'm looking for a new job and that sounds cool.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yeah, I knew the achievement at the time. When you approached me.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

If you had asked me in Joburg when I was going through the Catholic high school, going to university at Wits, ask me the question that we struggle with today. Like, do you, what do you think about hunting? I'd be exactly like you. I don't know. I don't care.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Don't know.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

I don't know what it is. I don't know.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

All I knew about it was that in winter time people would have gone hunted and they would have brought back the carcasses. You could buy a carcass or you could buy the bull torn, whatever. And that was what we knew about hunting. I never, never went on went hunting or I know my dad had a shotgun because at one stage we were staying on a farm but he didn't use it to, to hunt or bird shoot or anything.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

So you start in Kwazulu Nal as a financial marketing girl and quickly rise the ranks or what's the deal here?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

So as you know with these voluntary membership organizations, they normally have a president or chairman who's got his own business. He doesn't have all the time going to all the meetings. So I think eventually they realize that I can maybe the fact that I said I had parliamentary service assisted saying, you know what, she's, she, she can go and represent us. Maybe that's what happened, I don't know. But I started, I started representing KZN hunters at the government forums at that time.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

But you knew nothing about hunting.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

But remember I went on the course, I really tried to, to find out what it's about. And the first forums was basically about the Farms Control Act. So it wasn't really focused on hunting as such. It was about firearm ownership. And everybody at that time was so upset about this new firearms legislation coming in for all firearm owners in South Africa. So there were so many meetings and so many opportunities. And that was where I started to learn how to read legislation. Never in my life before did I actually take a bill or an act and read through it. And I was coached as to how to do that. And that was my entrance to dealing with government was through the Farms Control Act.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Let me. Can I ask a question? When you went UP and represented KwaZulu Natal Hunting association in this forum, how many females were in the room?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I knew that would be the question. I knew that would be. No, it was only me.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Wow.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

From the industry side, I can remember from. From the South African police site, from the central Farms registrar. They were a very senior official. Colonel Berger, I think was his surname. But otherwise it was only me. Went to the Hunters forum, went to the Wildlife forum. KZN Hunters was part of an umbrella association charter. Okay, so you go to a board meeting with.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Charter has like 23 members, right?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

23 associations.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Associations, yeah.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

So you would go to a board meeting, these like 45 guys around the table and me. But you know what? They never made me feel unwelcome.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Okay.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I must really say that that's amazing. It was amazing. And my first.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

This is in the 1920s.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Not that bad. Not that bad. Not that bad. Not that bad.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

This is 2000s, right? Two thousand ten.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

2001, 2005.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

2005.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yeah. I did my 2001. I started with Cousin Hunters. 2005, I think I attended my first meetings. So there was four years for me to learn what it's about. I did the courses, went to the shooting range. And then one night, after meeting with government about firearm legislation, the then, I don't know, President of JAZZA said to me, listen, my goal, you know everything about legislation. It's. You know everything. We can ask you anything about this act, but nobody will ever take you serious because you've never hunted.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Okay.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

That was in February 2008. And in May 2008, I went on my first hunt.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Okay.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

And I must admit, it did change my whole. How I understood what it was about previously. It was something especially dealing with Firearms Control Act. I was really promoting that hunters are allowed to have firearms. They should have more than 200 rounds of ammunition, all those kind of things. But I didn't understand why. I didn't understand what it feel. I didn't understand the passion. I didn't understand why people would want a rifle to go hunting once or twice or three times or four times a year. And all of a sudden, my first hunt was amazing. It was in the Eastern Cape. It was in the winter, it was bitterly cold. I got my first animal and it was just. Everything changed. If I think back about that morning, I.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

You can still remember it now.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Remembered. Our first animal was a warthog.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Okay.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I can remember when I took the shot that I saw the puff of dust on the animal. And everybody told me, of course, that once you've hunted the animal, just go and sit quiet. The animal will maybe run a few meters. You sit quiet, get up after 10 minutes, walk to the animal. It didn't happen that way with the warthog. It died immediately. But it made a bit of a noise that to me was tough to hear.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Yeah.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

But you do have a completely different perspective, I suppose everything in life until you haven't experienced it, you wouldn't know. You don't know what you don't know. That's right. Yeah. So, yes. So back to KZ and Hunters. I started there and then I think I just became part of the whole system. System and was respected by all the guys. I. I honestly can't say. Anybody who was in the organized hunting industry was every at any chance nasty to me at that time. They really welcomed me.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

So when you left, you went from KZN straight to Faza?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yeah, yeah. So one or two of the. The founder FARZA members.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

FAZA is the professional hunters association of South Africa. And there was only one at that stage. There's only one professional hunting association.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yes. So their office is on Pretoria and I've met these guys obviously at the all the forums. And two of the founder members of FARZA were also K and Hunters members. The one was Ian Goss. I don't know if you've ever met Ian.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

I never met Ian.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Bigger than life.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Is Ian still alive?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

No, he isn't. No, he isn't. But his daughter of custodians and Bill Daley, who's also passed away since, so. And they apparently had some other meeting at the FAZA office about appointing a CEO.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

And did FAZA have a CEO at that time?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Not at that time. I think they have had somebody in that position for a while, a couple of years before, but not at that time.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Okay. And how old was. How old is Faza? Do we know?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I. As far as I know, they're turning 50 next year. In 2027, they'll be 50 years old.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Okay.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

If I'm correct. Yeah. So that's quite amazing. That's a huge achievement. But then I must also say 2027, custodians is turning 10. So we're the little brother. But we've. That's all. That is amazing because many people didn't get. Think that we would like that. You know, it's like any new venture.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

So you became the c. They advertised for a CEO. Did they advertise or they just come to you?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no. I got a call from Ian Goss and if you get a call from Ian Goss and he says to you, girl, I want to meet you for breakfast tomorrow, then you pitch up. So we had breakfast in Durban the next morning somewhere at some hotel. And I thought, what on earth have I done? What have I done?

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Yeah, what have I messed up?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yes, exactly.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have a couple of people of those in my, in my life that they call and you're like, oh my God. Yeah, I'm going to answer this call, I'm going to get a lamb basting and then you. And I'm going to apologize and I can move on.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

And then you go to breakfast and you're sitting there the whole morning waiting now for what's going to happen. What. What's he going to say?

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Yeah, he's talking about the weather. He's. How's the hunting season? Exactly. When's the. When's the bomb going to drop?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

And then. Yeah, then he said to me that a few of the past presidents of Gaza or the fact that founder members were together on some kind of, I don't know, maybe a strategic session or something, and they decided they needed to appoint a CEO. And he said, well, he knows you. And at the time, that's what life is. I just got divorced a year before, so had that happened two years earlier, I probably wouldn't have been.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Yeah, it wasn't right times in terms of your life where you were.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Things happen, things fall in place. You must just give it.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

They don't even advertise. They just found the best.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I don't think everybody will agree with you on that one, but to me it was a.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

And again, it's just a big move. Plus also a female CEO of a hunting. The hunting association.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yeah.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Of South Africa.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yeah.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Was. And. And Faza and Charles are separate. Right. Because Charles is an association. It is. It doesn't represent professional hunters as I understand it.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Right. And t is not actually an association. It's more like A body, an umbrella

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

4A conglomerate to represent all the voices of 23 organizations resident South African hunting, recreational hunting.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I do know that they do have a few professional hunters as members as well, but their Main mandate is recreational South African hunting. Whereas Farza and our custodians focus on your international hunting tourist visiting South Africa. Yes, it was the first see a lady female CEO and I think first

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

lady leadership position anywhere in any hunting organization in South Africa.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Look, maybe first see, there's a lot of ladies.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Think about it. No, no, I don't want you to downplay this.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

No, no, no, no. What I'm saying is there's a lot of ladies managing.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

No, no, no. I want you to go back when you got appointed as a CEO.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yeah, it was the first, the first

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

in a male dominated environment in 2010.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yeah, that was, that was quite something. It was. But once again I never felt out of place at that time. The president was Peter Butland handing over to Edward Kotzker. And I also think that they, I don't know, maybe thought that they took a gamble and they better look after this girl to make sure that she doesn't mess up. So they've given me all the support I need in life and they were really, I think coaching me on the way forward in this leadership position which guided me to my next positions as well. So I don't know if I would have been able doing it without that guidance and support from the then exco.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

And how long did you stay at faza as a CEO?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Until the end of 2015. But then there was a position advertised by Wildlife Ranching South Africa. So that was quite a big change when I applied for the position and

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

I started and that was a CEO position at WRSA.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

At WRSA, that was their first CEO position. They were 10 years at the time. 10 years old was. I can remember. And yeah, that was a complete change because now when I entered this whole industry in 2001, it was with the local South African hunters. It was something people did as a. Out of passion and a hobby or whatever you want to call it, being in nature. Then I went to Farsa where changed to dealing with people. This is their bread and butter. They earn a living, this is their livelihoods.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Yeah. Totally different kettle of f. And then.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

But still hunting. And then I went to wrsa which are landowners. It's a completely different business and I really had to. And then a very influential board of directors who were on the WRSA board and that, that opened up a complete new way of operating in leadership to me. That was, that was. But now I'm back with where I started hunting.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

So you in WRSA from 2015 through 2018.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

2020, just after Covid I decided the Beginning of.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

To retire.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yeah. I've decided a couple of years before, when I reach a certain age, that is when I'm gonna say, okay, now it's my time for my own. For my own time. And I resigned the beginning of 2020 to.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

And who took over from you at WRSA?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I'll tell you now. So what happened? I would have. My last. I would have been the end of April and then Covid struck in March and we had to go through that whole system. So eventually I stayed on until the end of October, just go through that whole Covid period.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

And Richard York took over.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

York took over.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Okay.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yes.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

And he's still the CEO today, right?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yes, yes, he is. Yeah. So then I retired and I did all kinds of things. I did gardening, I baked, and I

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

learned how to dance.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Danced. I love dancing. We traveled quite a bit and it was. It was so nice.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

And then you got a phone call.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Then I got a phone call from. No, you know what? They were very. So Craig Kelly Martins, first of all invited me for a weekend to spend. Spend with the family. With the Martins family in Paul in the Western Cape.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

And you obviously knew the Martins from all the work that has happened in Faza.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

At Faza. And I've got huge respect for Sandy Martins, Craig's mom, the late Barcy Martin's wife. And we. They whined and dined, my husband and myself, that whole weekend. It was. It was really just so special. But I believe it was honest. There was honesty in hosting us for the weekend, but part of that was to find out if I would. If I would be available coming back.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Did you have an inkling going in there that that was what it was about?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

No, not. I don't know, maybe raised it. I can't remember.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Because obviously you were at WRSA when the split happened.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I was because I left Faza. My very last agm. Where I left Faza was when there was a decision from the floor about supporting captive brick line hunting or not. And at that time the decision was to not Support. That was 2015 and then 2016. The split took place in 2017. 2017, which were two years later. So I wasn't part of ours at the time.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

So you watched this happen from the WRSA CEOCs. So no inkling. You go and get wined and dined and.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Well, the next thing is I get a call from Sean and will I come back as a consultant, just helping them out for two, three months and get everything into place. You know what happened with custodians which

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

again, makes complete sense. Little did I know that you are the queen bee of hunting and the wildlife industry space in South Africa. So it makes sense that you are asked to be in a consulting forum because you've been there, done that. You've been there since the beginning. Who else has been involved for so long in the space.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Look.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

In the various capacities that you've been involved in.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

No, in the various capacities. Capacities. I don't. I. I don't know. But I mean, there's the pioneers being in the industry. No, no, no, no, no, no. In the leadership.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

People in the industry that run their operation. And then there's people in the administration of organizations and parliamentary engagement, political engagement, whatnot. Name me somebody else who's been there and done it. In the capacity you have. You can't.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Well, there's quite a few served on the boards. Maybe not as. Not not as an official, but on boards, but yes.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Yeah, that's different. It's different. Stop. Just say there is nobody else.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I don't want to do things like that. But anyway. Yeah. So coming back as a consultant, assisting. Assisting custodians of the governance.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Why are you so blushing and embarrassed about what I just said?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

You know what? I hate starting a sentence with me, my own me.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Okay, I get it. I get it. You didn't have to.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Okay? You did. I did it in a leadership position. I think it's the only position that's still existing. The same person.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Right?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

From back to 2005.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

I would say more than 20 years.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

You're trying to give away my age.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

You're young. 21. You were young.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Side. Yeah, it is. And. And you know what? I enjoyed most of it up till today. I enjoy it. I think I just.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

What do you mean, up until today?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Oh, I mean, even today.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Even today. Even today, yeah. So going to be like, man, I

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

mean, I get to meet so many people. Dr. Robbie Krueger. I mean, wow.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

I did. Listen, I don't. Now I. Now I know I'm in the presence of royalty, like hunting industry royalty in South Africa.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Oh, no, I don't know about that. But anyway, yeah, so consulting for three months and then eventually back.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Now the CEO of Custodians. And you've been there now for three years. Four years.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Oh, that was the end of 20. Yeah. Three years. Going for my fourth year. And everybody's. You know what? At the last convention, I was having dinner. The next moment, one of our members came up to me and he whispered in my ear, he said, listen, how old Are you, Can you tell me how old you are? I said why? He said because we've got a bet at the table and I want to win it. So there's a bit of concern about me and my age.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

I don't think so first thing.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

So I think as long as I love what I do.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

What do you think? You mean this? You've been in this place for 20 years. What do you think's our biggest challenge in the next 10?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Before I can answer that, when I started with Farza in 2010 I was told that within 10 years time there won't be wildlife left in Africa and there won't be any hunting left in Africa. And the animal writers.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

So do you think there's a bunch of fear mongering?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

To an extent I think there's reality that happens and I think the, the anti sustainable use groups are very organized and they've got very good programs to attack what we're doing because probably possibly they don't understand it or they are just being funded through it and making a living out of it. But I still think that we've got such a passion and we've got such good track record of what we're doing is to the best of nature, of habitats, of people, of livelihoods, of animals. So I, I think in 10 years time we'll still be hunting.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Oh for sure.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I honestly think we will. I don't know too much about the rest of Africa.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

I can't talk about that. Well, think. What do you think our biggest challenges will be? Not whether we'll be hunting or not. What's our biggest challenge in your mind based on what you see or what you've seen?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

I still think the strength or the abilities of the anti sustainable use groups infiltrating policymakers. I think that might be it. Because in South Africa for instance, and I always say you need to, there's two levels. There's your politicians and there's your officials. And as far as officials are concerned, in our department's forest policy writing, they open to listening to us. But then you do get the anti sustainable use groups. It's got funding to attack certain parts of our legislation which put a halt to hunting. Like we've had the court case against the quotas, the export quotas for elephant, rhino and leopard for four years based on a court case which was based on procedure and not. And not on hunting us, not on

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

merit, not on science.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

So yeah, I think it's an uphill. You are busy on your phone.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

No, I'm not I'm trying to, I'm. Denine is texting me right now telling me how late she got into bed.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Okay, the.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

No, I agree. I think that the, you know, the quota is a good example. The quota is scientifically defensible. It is from a non detrimental finding perspective is certainly defendable. You know, especially given the population elephants. We have, you know, 44,000 elephants. You can't give an elephant away for free in South Africa right now. And the cite's quota and the South African quarter export is 150, 300, 300 tusks. 300 tusks. 150 elephants. Okay, assuming elephants have two tusks when you shoot them, it's negligible impact on the population. You know, great sustainable management tool. Same with Black Rhino, right? Plenty. The private landowners that are investing all this money into Black Rhino conservation are the ones that are going on needing the, this export quota to survive.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

And it's 0.5% of the population.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

0.5%. And then the leopards, there's 11 leopards on quota right now. And if you look at the Panthera study that we talked about yesterday, at the minimum of their study framework, you're talking, if you go on the lowest conservative estimates like 2,900 leopards in South Africa, which we all know as bonkers. Right. The higher end of their numbers is like 21,000 leopards, which I think is probably where everyone was like that's probably more accurate than, than anything because of things like, you know, you look at the Western Cape and all the news coming out the Western Cape, there's leopards showing up where we've never seen leopards before. And it's not just one leopard camera trap servers are showing 6, 7 leopards leopard density thing that they just did in South Africa. Almost 4 leopards per up in Limpopo. Yeah, per 100 square kilometers, I think or something like that.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

And if you, if you actually our leopard. Our official site is leopard quota is 150, which makes sense again the intent of the ministers now to, to declare 11 based on the feedback that was

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

given by provinces, which is fine. Let's just get, let's just get that, let's get those 11. We know it's little, but that's the data that he has from the provinces, specific geographic data. Cool, no problem. But we're getting more and more data all the time and I think that these farmers, you know, I think it came through one of our WhatsApp groups. I give SIF has a camera trap survey Methodology.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

That's right.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

That they use. Can we get that methodology? The farmers would do it themselves. They would be like, okay, what do I need? 10 cameras, 20 cameras. Okay, and where do I need to put them? I'll put them out.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yeah. But what's good about that program that aligns now with the guidelines as published by the scientific authority as to how it should be done.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Correct.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Because previously it was. Panthera has done it and then other people maybe did. There were other camera traps, but it wasn't done according to the guidelines. Now it's official, it's done correctly. So I believe that it should have an impact on a higher quota. Well, if it's scientifically done correctly, according to our scientific authorities guidelines.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

So we'll see, we'll see the next couple of months. Hopefully within, you know, one or two months, a DFFE decision is made and the quota is now passed down as understanded. They'll address all the comments, then DFFE will pass it down to the regional, the provincial, and then the provincial will put the quota out on the street and then the challenge will come. If, if it's, if it's going to come.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Right, yeah. Let's see if the minister. Remember the, the, the notice that was published was only the intent to introduce a quota. So if it's not being. It's only the intent. So anything can still happen. It can increase, it can become less, it. A quota can also be a zero quota. And that's what I'm always concerned about.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Yeah, correct.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

That's still a quota. So let's see what happens.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

But we have time because he did put 20, 26 and 2027 quota in there, which is great. Instead of us, you know, being stymied and time passing and the judge dismissing the case because it's irrelevant.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Yeah. So that, that's, that's a problem. Previous years, even when we did have a quota, it was only declared kind of to his rot towards the end of the year, so people didn't have a chance to include it in their marketing material from international conventions or so. Yeah. The fact that it's declared for two years is very good.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Yeah, perfect. Well, Audrey, thank you for sitting down with me. Beautiful day in Vienna.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Oh, isn't this lovely? I still see the cathedral's tower from here.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Yeah. You're heading back to South Africa tomorrow? I'm heading off to England tomorrow. So we'll see each other in November, I think.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Well, I hope before that when you visit South Africa throughout the year, I hope I'll get a chance.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

I'm busy and working man. Maybe having to work for you as well. You do with a little surprise coming.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Very, very good project that we're going to work with together. Thank you for the opportunity.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Well, where can people learn more about what you do? Now you're with custodians, where can they learn more information about custodians?

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

It's very easy. Our website is www.thecustodians.co.za and our contact details is on there. We've got Facebook, Instagram, social media. Still need to get onto LinkedIn. I haven't done that yet. And yeah, at any time, contact us,

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

follow along and follow what they do on socials and great people doing great things.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

And when you visit South Africa, come and, you know, get into contact with us.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Come and say hi, have a hunt.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

Have a hunt.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

There we go.

[Audrey Kitsoff Boita]

With a custodians member or anybody? No, the custodians mean that. No, with anybody.

[Host (Possibly a Hunting Industry Expert)]

Thanks, Audrey. Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.