Episode 647 - Chris Comer || Counting Leopards

Summary

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The Origins Foundation Podcast — Episode 647

Guest: Chris Comer (Director of Conservation Programs, Safari Club International Foundation)
Title: Counting Leopards
Date: May 28, 2026

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Overview

This episode explores groundbreaking efforts to collect robust leopard population data across southern Africa. Host [unnamed, referred to as Interviewer] sits down in Vienna with Chris Comer, Director of Conservation Programs at the Safari Club International Foundation (SCIF), delving into how the hunting and conservation community is transforming its approach with cutting-edge camera trap research. The conversation draws out the scientific, logistical, and political complexities of monitoring highly elusive species like leopards, and considers the larger consequences for sustainable hunting, wildlife policy, and scientific legitimacy.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Why Counting Leopards Matters

• Essential for Conservation and Hunting:
  • Chris underscores that the project is "not only important, I think it's vital. I think it's just in time." (01:50, Chris Comer)
  • Leopards are elusive, notoriously difficult to monitor, and lack robust data in many range states.
• Regulatory Context:
  • SCIF’s camera surveys help countries provide the "non-detriment findings" (NDF) required by CITES for legal trophy exports.

The Origin of the Project

• Inspiration at CITES Conference:
  • Chris was inspired around 2018 at the CITES Conference of the Parties, when leopard quotas were debated and it was clear "there was a gap" in data. (04:47, Chris Comer)
• Academic Turned Practitioner:
  • Chris transitioned from academia to SCIF for more direct conservation impact.

Notable Quote:
"Everything is impossible until it gets done." — Nelson Mandela (04:00, referenced by Host)

Historical Conservation Approach vs. New Strategy

• SCIF previously operated as a grant-making body, but under Chris’s guidance, shifted to targeted, strategic projects to address key questions (11:22, Chris Comer).
• Cat populations, particularly leopards, chosen as high-impact, high-need focus area due to their ecological role and political significance.

The Camera Trap Methodology

Survey Design

• Botswana as Pilot Site:
  • Chosen for government support and urgent data gaps (13:00, Chris Comer).
  • 20 distinct sites surveyed, 50 stations per site, each with 2 cameras (total: 450 cameras) (14:06, Chris Comer).
• Individual Identification:
  • Leopards’ unique spot patterns enable individual identification from photos, allowing for robust population modeling using Spatially Explicit Capture-Recapture methods (15:00, Chris Comer).
  • Data initially scanned with AI, then meticulously checked by a human expert (Daniel Scogio). (15:27, Chris Comer)

Consistency and Replicability

• Methodology remains as consistent as possible across countries.
• Considering protocols that could be packaged and spread to private landowners and other partners for wider data collection (30:38).

Survey Findings and Impact

Botswana Results

• Density findings ranged from 1 to 3.8 leopards per 100 km²; highest in Central Kalahari Game Reserve (16:27, 16:52, Chris Comer).
• Results mirrored densities later found in South Africa.
• Evidence supports quota sustainability and strengthens countries’ positions before CITES.

Expansion to Other Countries

• MOU signed with Mozambique, with surveys starting July 2026 (19:40, Chris Comer).
• Work in progress or planned in South Africa (five sites, mostly Limpopo & Eastern Cape), Zambia, and eventually Namibia (20:45, 27:52).
• Namibia already has relatively good data, partly sponsored by SCIF (28:02, Chris Comer).
• Preliminary results in South Africa’s Limpopo: 3.81 leopards/100 km² (21:07, Interviewer/Host; 21:11 Chris Comer).

Memorable Moment:
Host calculates home range equivalence and remarks, “So four leopards are occupying 2.5 km by 2.5 km — if you fit them all uniquely, like, lock them in there... it’s not a lot.” (21:34, Host)

Contextualizing the Numbers

• Highest leopard densities in Africa can reach 12-15/100 km² in especially productive habitats; semiarid/arid areas, like much of Botswana and Limpopo, are naturally lower (22:30, Chris Comer).
• Host recalls anecdotal evidence of unexpected leopard presence in certain regions, highlighting their unpredictability and under-the-radar distribution (24:48–25:18).

Broader Implications

Informing Policy

• SCIF aims to have robust data ready by the 2028 CITES review (34:25–35:00).
• Even when not fully complete, showing transparent, large-scale, in-progress science is valuable before policy reviews.

Empowering Local Stakeholders

• Interest in providing methodology and equipment for landowners/farmers to contribute standardized data, multiplying survey scale (30:38–33:07).
• Would require careful auditing and standardization to ensure scientific quality (33:12–34:16).

Camera Technology Details

• Using established Browning cameras, in part due to prior positive experience; images are high-enough quality for identification, and cameras use infrared flash (most suitable for leopard work) (25:58–27:20).

Funding, Philanthropy, and Governance

• American conservation philanthropy strong compared to the European model; major factor making large-scale projects feasible (36:54, Host).
• SCIF’s conservation committee, mostly volunteers, plays a crucial enabling role by backing vision with resources and pragmatic support (37:35, Chris Comer).

Fieldwork Realities

• The human element: logistics, long days, the importance (and luxury!) of skilled camp cooks (38:10–39:02).

Beyond Leopards — Next Frontiers

• African Big Cat strategy could expand to lions, brown or spotted hyenas (29:00, Chris Comer).
• Some degree of repeated monitoring (not just initial baselines) expected, dictated by local government priorities and practical feasibility.

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Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• On Project Importance:
  • "It's not only important, I think it's vital. I think it's just in time." — Chris Comer (01:50)
• On Data Gaps and Motivation:
  • "You can see the writing on the wall... we could all use better information." — Chris Comer (10:13)
• On Peer Review and Policy:
  • "Peer reviewed is always great... For the people that challenge what you do, it puts a solid full stop on the process and the data." — Interviewer & Chris Comer (36:10–36:23)
• On Vision:
  • "My vision for this is... next time [at CITES], Botswana says, look, here's... a survey of our whole country... People just... can't argue with it." — Chris Comer (18:27)
• On Scaling Participation:
  • "Is there a way... here is the method, guys... you need a grid pattern... then submit it to you guys... and expand the footprint..." — Host (29:41)
  • "We've talked about that, about implementing that... we can't do everywhere." — Chris Comer (30:38)
• On Volunteer Support:
  • "The purpose of this committee is to support and enable this program however we can do it." — Chris Comer (37:35)
• On Fieldwork and Support:
  • "Some of these camp cooks in Africa – the incredible... Everything they cooked was over an open fire, and it was fantastic." — Chris Comer (39:01)

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Timeline of Important Segments

• 01:46–03:32 — Introduction, why leopard monitoring is vital
• 04:35–11:22 — Origins at CITES, scientific and political context
• 12:33–15:22 — Botswana pilot project, methodology overview
• 16:22–17:29 — Botswana results, density findings
• 18:13–19:55 — Policy and CITES implications
• 20:10–21:16 — Expansion: Mozambique, Zambia, South Africa
• 21:14–23:21 — Density comparisons, ecological context
• 24:48–25:36 — Field anecdotes, literature context
• 27:52–28:18 — Namibia and previous data efforts
• 29:00–30:38 — African Big Cats strategy and future possibilities
• 30:38–34:16 — Scaling up participatory data collection (farmers, landowners)
• 34:25–35:35 — Timeline and goals for next CITES review (2028)
• 36:53–38:10 — Philanthropy, conservation committee, and practicalities
• 38:10–39:06 — Fieldwork logistics and sustaining teams

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Tone and Language

The episode is candid, knowledgeable, sometimes lightly humorous, but always focused on pragmatic and scientific challenges. The host and Chris Comer exchange anecdotes and digress into specifics with the ease of peers with shared fieldwork and academic backgrounds, balancing technical explanations with accessible analogies (“snakes and ladders,” mapping leopard densities to familiar areas).

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Conclusion

This episode offers a detailed exploration of leopard surveying in Africa—not only as a technical/scientific exercise but as a case study in how modern conservation must blend fieldwork, stakeholder engagement, politics, and philanthropy. The conversation showcases a template for evidence-based, scalable wildlife research that is vital for ensuring sustainable use policies and defending hunting in international forums.

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Transcript

[Narrator/Host]

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[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Chris Comer is the Director of Conservation Programs at Safari Club International Foundation. I wanted to sit down with Chris and we managed to catch up in CIC Austria in Vienna. We were both attending a congress there, General assembly because they're doing some fantastic work in science and research behind large carnivores, specifically leopards, across southern Africa. There is a lack of data associated with leopards, specifically because they're elusive, difficult to count. And SEIF has gone forward with a camera trap survey, a methodology that they are implementing in Botswana, currently in South Africa, negotiations in Mozambique to really get a handle on providing data around the densities and population estimates on leopards. Fantastic stuff. Super glad I caught up with Chris and this is a fascinating podcast that I think everyone will enjoy. So five years ago, there was a reason why I started this movement. And the truth then is the truth now that we need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around what we do and who we are. There's a sweet spot where they got,

[Chris Comer]

you know, too heavy and it's a

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

burden to walk with.

[Chris Comer]

Too, too light and you whipping it.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Why is the project so important to the hunting community?

[Chris Comer]

It's. It's a. I think it's not only important, I think it's. I think it's vital. I think it's. It's just in time.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

It's like snakes and ladders. You guys are climbing the ladder and then somebody does something stupid and you just slide that. That is such an amazing analogy.

[Chris Comer]

Snakes and ladders. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

You know, ivory in, in my opinion was the plastic of its age.

[Chris Comer]

Okay.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

The expensive. You're growing up. It goes a long way with families.

[Chris Comer]

We have families that do need it.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Let me close this door because I have a little wiener dog. What? You are. You're laughing because I said wiener.

[Narrator/Host]

I'm really glad you finished the sentence out.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

I'm sorry the first happened. What are we doing here today? You're telling the whole world. Give me a mic check.

[Chris Comer]

Mic check.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

There we go. Good.

[Chris Comer]

Perfect.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Chris. Coma. Official title, SCIF Director of Conservation.

[Chris Comer]

Correct. Director of Conservation.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

I Got that right. Look at that. Okay, so here's. I'm going to jump right into it because. And I know that I know you know this, and I don't want to. I'm going to float your ego a little bit.

[Chris Comer]

Oh, good.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Because it's cool. It's. No, no, because it's cool. It's cool. Where did you. You had this idea probably three, four years ago.

[Chris Comer]

A little more, maybe. Yep. It was more like probably 2019.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

2019. You're like, man, there is a hole.

[Chris Comer]

Correct.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

A big hole.

[Chris Comer]

Yep.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And we can do something about it. And not just, yes, we're hunters. Yes. And. And for a species that is very. Again, I'm gonna. I'm being. I'm being very cryptic purposefully here. For a species that's difficult to measure,

[Chris Comer]

difficult to monitor, I would say notoriously difficult.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Okay. And. But it's, it's. It's a. And there's a reason why nobody has done it.

[Chris Comer]

Right. Okay. In fact, before we started this work, we had. I mean, people would say, oh, it's impossible. Can't be done at the scale that, that we were talking about. It's.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Have you heard of Nelson Mandela's famous quote? I have it on my. I actually used to have it on my bio. Nelson Mandela's famous quote is this. Everything is impossible until it gets done.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah, I have seen that one. I think I remember. I've seen it on your email signature. Yeah, yeah, that's a good one.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And so you're like, you've got this problem. Number one. Notorious, difficult to measure, difficult to capture. But then it's. The scale of it is unbelievable. Right. Namibia, no data. Hardly any data. Botswana, hardly any data. If no data, South Africa, very little data. Mozambique, very little data.

[Chris Comer]

Almost none. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And so you're like, all right, I want to do this.

[Chris Comer]

That's right.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And this specifically is. Now, is understanding leopards.

[Chris Comer]

That's right.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Leopard abundance.

[Chris Comer]

Correct. Across. Yeah, Across a very large scale, like a country scale.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

So take me back to 2019. Who are you telling, like, this idea to?

[Chris Comer]

So there's. If you can go back a little bit farther to where the idea came to me.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Comer]

So this actually came to me at the CITES conference of the parties, and at that time, I think it might have been even 2018, when they. Anyway, it was shortly after I started with SEIF at the CITES Conference of the parties, and they were.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And remind everyone you came out of academia.

[Chris Comer]

That's right. So I was a professor teaching wildlife management at Stephen F. Austin, State University

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

and then came to your senses much like you did. Right? Just like I did. Exactly right, yeah.

[Chris Comer]

And so I, so we're at the, at the cities meeting and this is the first time I'd been to it, but they were, they were reviewing the leopard quota. So not to get too far into

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

it, but each country get far into it, each other.

[Chris Comer]

All the leopard hunting countries, you know, leopards are listed on CITES as an Appendix one species. But there's.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Which means what? So somebody who doesn't know what cites Appendix 1 means, what is that?

[Chris Comer]

It means that there is no commercial trade or essentially no commercial trade allowed in that species. And in order to have any even non commercial trade, like, like hunting trophies, there's a process by which you have to determine that, that there is no. That the trade in these, in these trophies or whatever is non detrimental to the, to the population in the wild. A non detriment finding.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And that's cites ndf.

[Chris Comer]

That's right, cites. And so they, there's a special provision for leopards whereby that they. CITES voted to give the leopard hunting countries an annual quota and if they stay below that quota then they didn't need to do the extra permitting through cites. Basically they were, they were extra.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Extra NDFs or an NDF writ large.

[Chris Comer]

They'd. That's a good question. So the, the.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Because you would think an NDF would be again, based on everything we've just talked about, where it's difficult to ascertain. So what if a country didn't have an ndf? Did Sadie say no quota? No, they just said here's a minimum, it is 2026. And my friends, big changes have happened in the world of firearm suppressors. The $200 tax stamp fee is now gone. Huge win for hunters, huge win for shooters and a huge win for your wallets if you're thinking about elevating your shooting experience and adding a suppressor. Silence Essential is the best way to shop. And you don't even have to get off your, your couch to do it. Go to silenceessential.com, browse hundreds of suppressor options. They literally have all of the popular makes and models. Then their experts will walk you through setting up your account, creating a free NFA trust and then submitting your application to the atf. Once approved Silencer Central ships your new suppressor directly to your door. That's when you're going to have to essentially get off the couch. It's a game changer, guys. You haven't done it yet. Do it the old days of waiting eight to 10 months on a suppressor are gone. It's more like two weeks. Some have even gotten their suppressors in shorter timeframes. It's never been easier to start shooting suppressed. Get started today by visiting silencercentral.com it's really the simplest way to get your suppressors. Bushnell is eager to help you get set up for conservation success. That's right. They want to help you. The conservation and research community is dominated by good people doing good things and investing significant time and effort for the benefit of habitat and the species. So what do you need to do? Pretty simple. Send us your conservation story and or your conservation wish. Could be managing whitetails, could be understanding your environment or species or something else related to conservation. What would you be able to do if you had a great trail camera setup? We will select the best story every other month and send you a camera bundle. Cell camera, normal SD camera, SD cards, as well as optics. Everything you need to get set up for success. I can't wait to see what you submit. You can email us, DM us, message us whatever you want. We are not hard to find. Good luck.

[Chris Comer]

So they all submitted a. Basically each country submitted what amounts to an ndf basically saying this, whatever they

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

had, whatever information they had, right.

[Chris Comer]

And they approved a quota. And it varied. There's I think at the time when they first started, maybe 10 or 11 countries that had quota since then, like Ethiopia no longer has a quota. Malawi no longer has a quota. But, but you know, Zimbabwe, Tanzania, Zambia, South Africa, Namibia, Botswana all have a quota. And I don't know the numbers offhand, but it's somewhere between like 75 and 150 something.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

South Africa was 150, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Comer]

And so, and as long as they stay below those quotas they could, they could export up to that number freely essentially.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Chris Comer]

Under cites. Now getting them into the receiving country is a different issue but from the, the exporting country than the range country. But those quotas come up for review. So they were up for review in 2018. And so each country had submitted a report more or less saying here's what we know about leopards in our country and here why we think our harvest is sustainable. And they got a lot of the, I would say anti use groups and not only them, it's some. Several NGOs were sort of questioning the results they had and saying a lot of these data are not current or they weren't used, they weren't spatially expansive enough to say Something meaningful about the country level and all that. And it ended up the quotas were approved and that was fine. But you could see, like you said, there was a gap.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

You can see the writing on the wall.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah, you can see the writing on the wall. And from a scientific perspective, as you would appreciate, like I've looked at the data and I think it was good and I'm comfortable that those harvests were sustainable. But at the same time, you know, we could have a lot better information. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we could all use better information.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Sure.

[Chris Comer]

And so, and I remember distinctly during that review, I guess when we were talking about it, someone said, well, it's impossible to do to, to, to count leopards at the, at the scale that you need to. Yeah, right. And I said, oh. And so, but, but like there's a gap there. So then, then basically I go to, we have a conservation committee which is made up of volunteers where we talk about our strategic direction at saf. And I said, I think this is a good direction for us. We met with the folks from now

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

remind everyone you are the first director of conservation for seif.

[Chris Comer]

No, there were people before me, there was a director before.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

So what were the conservation strategies before you though? Because it just feels like again, I don't want to float your boat and I want to push your ego here, but it just feels like. And the conservation committee now, maybe it's just a new set of thought processes, but there seems to be like, okay, this is where we're going.

[Chris Comer]

No, that's absolutely true. So previous to my arrival, and there's a bunch of reasons, not just my arrival that prompted this, but we were basically a grant making organization. So we would solicit grant requests for any conservation related project and then that would come in and then we'd rank them and fund the ones that we could to a certain level. And when I came in I thought that it was much more compelling to find questions that we were interested in as an organization and then do what we could to answer those questions, provide science based data or other assistance to these conservation issues. And so it was definitely targeted that way. And so that was a whole process getting behind that. And we have four or five strategic areas, one of which is the African Big Cats for, you know, it's a question that is very relevant for the organization. Of course it's also one that's, that's quite challenging, particularly for the range countries. Takes a lot of resources that they may not have right. Not be able to do that. So we felt we could you know, that was a good one for us. And so, yeah, that was the process. But you're right, that was a new direction, which I think has been. It's thankfully, has exceeded even my expectations for how useful it would be. It's been really great.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

So this whole process, I want to get to, obviously, the. The new stuff shortly. But you, You. You got this new strategic direction, this new strategy objective, and said, okay, where do we start?

[Chris Comer]

That's right.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And you started Botswana.

[Chris Comer]

We started with Botswana. And that was why you pick Botswana one Because, I mean, we were sort of talking to the various countries that were involved, and they were just very, you know, Botswana. Well, one. They. They had.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Did they have leopard data?

[Chris Comer]

Very little. Okay, Very little. And they have individual, like, properties that have leopard data, but nothing at a large scale at all. And it was not. Yeah, and a lot of the stuff they had was quite old. And so it seemed like that was an area where we could have some success. They were very interested in, you know, the Department of Wildlife and National Parks was very supportive. And of course, anytime you're starting a new program, you want to be successful. Right. With your first thing. And so we say this seems like a. In Botswana's is a good place to work and, you know, the governance is pretty stable and, you know, all that stuff. So it was a good, good place for us. And like I said, the department was. Was totally on board with it. And so he said, this is a good place for us to sort of take this model, show some success, and then we can build on that to other countries in the region. So it just, it was sort of an alignment. Like, hey, this seems like the right spot.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Yeah, we crossed paths in Botswana.

[Chris Comer]

That was our hotel.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Like, you were coming out. I think you'd. You just arrived for it.

[Chris Comer]

That's right. And I was leaving. That's right.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

At Mountain Lodge. And I was leaving because we had just finished filming Fine Balance. So that first study in Botswana, how many cameras did you put out?

[Chris Comer]

We. Well, so we bought. We had a total of 450 cameras. Each of our grid is 100 cameras on 50 stations. So each of our stations has two cameras so we can get images to

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

figure out the methodology you wanted knowing full well, and I'm making an assumption here, has the methodology remained consistent now? Yes, through all the countries.

[Chris Comer]

As much as we can.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

As best as you can.

[Chris Comer]

Yep. And. And this. We didn't come up with this methodology. It's well established. Okay, okay.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

That.

[Chris Comer]

That this was the way to. To measure leopards. The Part we added was doing so many. So we did, we did 20 distinct sites across the country. Each site had this grid of 50 camera stations with two cameras at each station. And you know, you've seen, I'm sure that the cameras are on both sides of like a trail or a road and you get an image of the leopard as, as it goes by along the road. And the nice thing about leopards and other, many of the other cats, not all of them, is that that leopards have unique spot patterns. So you can identify individuals. Okay. And once you have an individual, then you can get a capture history for that or each individual that's present on a, on a site and put it into a modeling program called Spatially Explicit Capture Recapture, which basically derives a pretty robust estimate of density. Okay. Which is great.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And that identification of leopards, is that an intern's job or an AI's job?

[Chris Comer]

It's a combination of all. So we start out screening with an AI. Right. And, but actually it was our, Our program leader, Dr. Daniel Scogio, who really went through essentially all of our leopard photos.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Wow.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah. So it, he assume he, there must

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

be a pattern, there must be a process to that. Like there must be specific dots on like the front fore shoulder that he's like, all right, those are typically different. Yes.

[Chris Comer]

Although.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Yes and no.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah. Yes and no. There are, I think there are certain places you look like. Okay. That's a, you know, it's spots that are visible in most of the images. Right. Because some places aren't. But then you just look at it and say, okay, that looks distinctive. And then you mark like three or four spot areas. Sorry, not spots where you can, you know, there's, that's unique. Okay. We can, we can spot that quickly if we see it again.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And so when you, you've compiled, you finished your Botswana work.

[Chris Comer]

Yep.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

What was in terms of the results, density wise?

[Chris Comer]

Yeah. So it varied from about. Well, there's one site where we only had one image of a leopard out of our, you know, we, we had cameras out there for eight weeks or more. Okay. One, we only had one leopard. So there's, they can say, oh, they're present, but we can't get a density obviously from that. I think the highest was 3.8 Leopards per hundred square kilometers.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Chris Comer]

Which is pretty typical of these sort of semi arid habitats. And that was on a.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Very, very interesting that you said that number given what we're going to talk about last. Okay. Because it's exactly the same number.

[Chris Comer]

Really interesting.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Yeah. Anyway, yeah, they.

[Chris Comer]

So we.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

The.

[Chris Comer]

That was on the Central Car game reserve, which I don't know if you've ever been to the. I'm sure you have to the ckgr.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

No, I haven't.

[Chris Comer]

Oh, it's fantastic. It's an incredibly remote, this enormous game reserve right in the center of Botswana. One of the most, you know, we spent four or five days out there doing this work. You know, it's one of those places where at night you can't see a light nowhere, anywhere. You know, it's. It's, It's a really special place.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

So finished Botswana.

[Chris Comer]

Yep.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And again, I want to maybe a little bit behind the curtain scene here, because obviously your conservation committee has said, okay, great.

[Chris Comer]

Yep. But when I go forward. Right. Do more that you're.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Well, I'm just saying, did you have to like, you showed the data, the results coming out of Botswana and they're like, oh, wow.

[Chris Comer]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Holy smokes, we did it.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah. I'd say that's a good characterization. Yeah, we did.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

It's like, where are you going next?

[Chris Comer]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Because you need to go next somewhere.

[Chris Comer]

Oh, yeah. Yes. They're very supportive of that. So. And yeah. So. And so the Botswana government, actually Daniel's going to be in Botswana in about a month, 14th to 15th of May to present. We've already sent the report. But to actually be. To give a presentation on the.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Do you think that those results would. Are now going back to the original cite's cop situation? Would it change the number that Botswana is looking for from a quota perspective?

[Chris Comer]

I doubt it.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Is it now more defensible?

[Chris Comer]

That's, that's what I think. Okay. So my, My, my vision for how this works. Right. Is the next time. And they're. So the cite decided they would review the quotas every nine years. If I remember correctly, that was at the animals committee after the one where after that conference of the parties, they said we need to review these every nine years so it'll come up again. My vision for this is, is again, I'm sure that the same groups say, oh, we don't have good data. And then we present. Then Botswana says, look, here's. We did a, A, A survey of our, our whole country in.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Nobody's done a 23 scale before.

[Chris Comer]

And this is what it says in those. And people just. They can't argue with it. Right. They say, okay, well.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And it's arguably, again, not explicit or absolute.

[Chris Comer]

No, no.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

But it's the best available science we have.

[Chris Comer]

Right. And it. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Without spending millions and millions and Millions of dollars.

[Chris Comer]

I mean, I guess theoretically you could survey every inch of the country, but that would be.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Has Panthera not. Panthera has only done work in leopards in South Africa. Where else has Panthera.

[Chris Comer]

No, they've done it. They've done all over the continent.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Have they done some in Botswana?

[Chris Comer]

Not that I'm aware, but I wouldn't swear to that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know Wild Crew has done some. You know, the folks out of Oxford have done some there.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Chris Comer]

At least not in the recent history Panthera has done work in, in Botswana.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

So finish Botswana then.

[Chris Comer]

Right, so we're. Right now we have, we just signed an MoU with ANAC, which is the agency in Mozambique, will be starting there, Fingers crossed, in July.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Same sort of scale, 450 odd cameras.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Chris Comer]

But Botswana is about 30% large. I mean, sorry, Mozambique is about 30% larger than Botswana. So we'll probably have to do more sites. I'm guessing 35 sites or so north to south. Starting in the south, moving north, we're going to start. Right. In fact, our first sites are going to be I think right along the border with Kruger.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Nice.

[Chris Comer]

And then we'll move north from there. We've also. So we, we hosted a conference in Zambia this year. We met with their folk, their wildlife management agency. They're interested where should be. In fact, we're shipping cameras right now. Their camera is being shipped to Zambia right now. We'll get that started. And we've. And as you know, we're already on the ground in South Africa. We've done five sites, I think in South Africa already, mostly in Limpopo. Okay. But we're going to be. We did Limpopo, Eastern Cape. We'll be working in kzn.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Chris Comer]

Shortly they'll be going that same visit that our team will be over there in early May. They'll be going to KZN and some more sites in Limpopo, I think.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And do you have a specific. So in South Africa. I was going to absolutely go on a tangent, but I'll stay focused. In South Africa, you just released preliminary data right out of the Limpopo area, right?

[Chris Comer]

That's right, yep.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And it showed 3.81.

[Chris Comer]

That's right.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Leopards per 100 square kilometers. Right.

[Chris Comer]

That was at one of the sites in Limpopo.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Yeah. Is that a lot of leopards? Is that a little leopards? Is that like. I don't have an idea. When I think about, I'm like, it doesn't sound like a lot of Leopards,

[Chris Comer]

I think I would. I don't think it's like that's a ton of leopards.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

But 100 kilometers is only 10, I frame it, I got 10 kilometers by 10 kilometers.

[Chris Comer]

That's right. Right.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

So four leopards are occupying 2.2, you know, 2.5 kilometers by 2.5 kilometer. If you fit them all like uniquely, like lock them in there.

[Chris Comer]

That's about right, yeah. Which at the end of the day

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

it's not a lot. You know, the cheetahs that we're doing in Mozambique right now, you know, their home ranges are monstrous.

[Chris Comer]

Right, yeah.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

You know, 800, a thousand, you know, hectares. Oh yeah, you know, even more than that. More than that, probably 10,000. I think I might be a magnitude order out.

[Chris Comer]

That's right, yeah. So they, I mean, yeah. So my impression is that it's fairly typical, it's not a high number. So in very, very productive habitats where it was all sort of dependent on prey density.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Right, so what is, what is in terms of the literature, the highest density of leopards that is potentially out there.

[Chris Comer]

That sort of 12 to 15 range. And that's an 12 to 15.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

So if you go to like 100 square kilometers.

[Chris Comer]

100 square kilometers, I believe that's right, yeah. If you go to India and places like that. Yeah, that's a whole different ballgame.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Comer]

But yeah, in Africa that's not, that's an, you know, originally the whole. When they first designed the quotas for lepers, it was all dependent on rainfall. And so countries that had higher amounts of rainfall got bigger quotas per area. So I mean, but there's some. That's not, it's not quite that simple, of course, but that does tell you that like the product productivity of the landscape tells you how many leverage it can support. I think again, for these sort of semi arid to arid habitats, that's a normal number, not a ton. You know, we had, as you get farther south in Botswana, down near the, the border with the Northern Cape, it was, you know, more like 1.5, something like that.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Well, I think you'd, you know, you again, in the Northern Cape where it's sheep country, there's probably. Oh, that's, you know, no leopards that.

[Chris Comer]

Well, we're going to find out.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

That'll be good.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Well, you see the news out of Cape Town, you know, there's all these reports to the east out of Cape Town and up the north coast, leopards being seen for the first time ever. You know, six, seven leopards on Trail cameras. You're like, geez, they're showing up. They didn't, you know, they're showing up in places that nobody believed there were leopards or thought there were leopards. I remember undertaking a hike when I was a Scout. Was I like our, our Springbok Scout hike, like your Eagle Scout hike? It was.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Like 50 kilometer walk. And we just. And it was like, just point in the direction, like you need to be there. And we had to traverse private farms and. But without any permission, like, this is. You were just going. And we heard that this one farm had. And maybe, you know, this was back in the day. So I'm, you know, I'm probably 16 at the time. I don't think there was an issue with like, you know, you, you weren't like bundu bashing. But I think they knew about the Scouts and whatnot. But we were told via the grapevine. Again, I don't even know how we got told because there's no cell phones or anything like that, that there's leopards in these ridges, which they probably were. Yeah, right. Yeah, probably so. And we were like, okay, we're not going up there. We're going to stick to the road. And because we were told, you're not allowed to walk on the road.

[Chris Comer]

Oh.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And so we literally, like walked and if a car came by, we'd go into the bush.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah, I'm sure about. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Has anybody, I guess maybe to the, you know, higher rainfall, higher leopard densities. Is there a number? Has anybody. Again, did you go into this thinking, is 3.8 a good number? Is it relative? Is that something? Is that. Does that match what others have seen from a leopard density perspective?

[Chris Comer]

I mean, we didn't go into. We went into it like, we're just gonna. It is what it is, right? What we find. Of course, when you, when you get done with it and you start looking at, okay, what does this mean in terms of sustainability and things like that. But I didn't go into with any sort of preconceived notion, to be honest.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Hmm, interesting. So Mozambique happening now, South Africa happening now.

[Chris Comer]

Have you.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

I guess people are like, probably screaming down the. The podcast. What is. Have you figured out, like the best trail camera? Like, have you gone through probably five different companies and go, you're shit, you're shit. You're the one we need. That one works really well, actually, to

[Chris Comer]

be honest, we did not. So. So Daniel had been doing this kind of work with Ocelots in Texas for quite some time and had Been using the Browning cameras.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Yeah.

[Chris Comer]

And so we just.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Stuck with it.

[Chris Comer]

Stuck with it. And they've worked great. Yeah, knock on wood, right? But yet they work great. No, can we. Can we contact Browning and say now we need like some sort.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

I don't understand why you have it. Honestly, you should approach Browning and say, browning, we're doing this amazing leopard work all over Africa. We've got amazing imagery that you can share on your socials. Come, let me teach you. I'm a. Now a comms guy.

[Chris Comer]

Okay, this is good.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

I need a comms guy now. Chris, no. How would Absolutely. Email Browning tomorrow.

[Chris Comer]

Say hey.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And say, hey, we're buying a thousand cameras.

[Chris Comer]

About right.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Can we get 50% discount?

[Chris Comer]

Yeah, we do get a discount.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Chris Comer]

Not. Not maybe 50%. We do get a discount, man.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

You should be close to wholesale.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

In terms of. Yeah. What, you're buying these? Of course. Come on. Do you need me to just. Maybe we do.

[Chris Comer]

Maybe we need a representative that's going to help us out with this.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Yeah, just with just a little out of the box thinking beyond the scientist lens, like, oh, we could actually do this. We could ask this question. Exactly.

[Chris Comer]

But they, but they, you know, they. The images are plenty good for what we need and it's worked out fine. And they're the nice thing that.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Are they. Are they night flash? Because obviously nighttime is. Are they. Are they a white flash? Infrared or infrared?

[Chris Comer]

Infrared. Infrared. Which works fine for what we do. I know that some of the. Some applications of cameras, like with lions, you need a white flash, but for leopards it seems to be fine white flash.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Because.

[Chris Comer]

Because. So when you do lions, and I haven't actually done this myself, but you use their. The whisker patterns like on their muzzle. And so it's quite. Whoa. Yeah. You gotta have a lot of detail. And so the white flash gives you more detail at night than a. Than the infrared.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Does Mozambique, South Africa, Zambia? Is Namibia the next.

[Chris Comer]

Probably. I haven't. We. I have talked preliminarily with Namibia. They have the most recent data.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Data. They've got a great. They've got actually quite a good data leopard data sets.

[Chris Comer]

They do. In fact, we sponsored that.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

That was good. Recently updated.

[Chris Comer]

I haven't seen a new.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

No, I mean recently, like maybe 23.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah, that's about right. Yes, that's right. 23. That. So that was a lot.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

The new leopard density that came out of Namibia.

[Chris Comer]

Yep.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

You guys sponsored that?

[Chris Comer]

We did, among others. But we were one of the major sponsors of it. Yeah.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Chris Comer]

But this is before, this is sort of at the end of our previous strategy for how we do stuff. So we, you know, we just gave a grant to somebody through the nafa, the Professional Hunting Association. They actually organized it there. But if we go back, then I think we'll be doing it ourselves.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Makes sense.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And you obviously the strategic objective being Africa Big cats was not just leopards. No, it was just like, it was like, let's start with leopards. Because clearly once you, would you, would you repeat it again? Or you're just like, okay, we've plucked the holes now. Yeah, now we're going to move on to lions or now we're going to move on to something else like a spotted, you know, maybe not spotties, but brown hyenas or something.

[Chris Comer]

Brown hyenas actually is one that we have talked about. Brown hyenas, it's an interesting one. Or spotted hyenas. Right. You know, I think that there will be some repeated monitoring. I'm not sure we've talked about what the form that would take. I mean, whether we want to go back and do the whole thing again or whether we, we do. And it'll depend on what the governments there want to do, of course. But I think, yes, there'll be some repeat, some going back to, to see progress for these. For example, in Botswana, one of the things we did so we had those, all those cameras we left, we basically donated those to the Department of Wildlife and National Park.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Makes sense.

[Chris Comer]

So they can then, you know, in a couple of their, their scientists were with us basically every day that we were out there.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

So they could undertake the survey as they needed to.

[Chris Comer]

That's right, they could.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

So let me, you probably have thought about this, but I'm going to throw it out there because I've seen it in a WhatsApp group. You have a methodology. Is that methodology easy to package up and say, okay, sci, like we can only do so much scif. You can only do so much. Right. You can't cover every single farm in South Africa. But is there a way with certain caveats, say, here is the method, guys, here's the method for 100 square kilometers, if you've got a 10 kilometer by 10 kilometer area or whatever it is, you need a grid pattern. You need two trail cameras per 1km squared. You need to stratify it like this. You set up the cameras like that and get all the data and then submit it to you guys and expand the, the footprint of the data, multiply

[Chris Comer]

our efforts a thousand fold. Right. We have talked about that, about implementing that, and I think so. You know, as you know, in South Africa, we're partnering with the Faza foundation and the other entities there, and we've talked about how we could do something very much like that. Because, like you said, we can't do everywhere.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Because a bunch of. Because right now the quota going back to, like, the relevancy of what you're doing, right? The quota in South Africa is 11 Leopards.

[Chris Comer]

Right.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

For the whole country, but very geographically specific.

[Chris Comer]

So do you know the whole tell me methodology for how this works? And this is a. Tell it if I hope I'll get it right because it's very. It's kind of complex, but basically in order the sand be the South African National Biodiversity Index that provides scientific information to the government to make decisions about things like quotas. But the way they have it set up, basically each province is divided into, like, zones or whatever, right? And then. And you can't get a permit or a leopard tag until you survey that zone.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Correct.

[Chris Comer]

For three consecutive years and show either stability or increasing population.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Okay.

[Chris Comer]

And my, my. We haven't actually been through this, but if. My impression is if you, if you do that for this zone, then as you get more information, they will divide those zones into smaller and smaller areas and each area gets one tag, essentially. So if, if our work were to show a stable population, one of the areas we're surveying, then they would break one of the existing zones into a smaller. Maybe there'd be two tags where now there's only one. Right. So. So given the way that's set up, I could see what we're talking about being quite effective. Right? Because. Because then you, if you're, if you

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

have farmer A who's sitting in zone 20, it's like, why I've got so many leopards. Right. I know it. So, Chris, give me the methodology.

[Chris Comer]

Right?

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

I will, I will invest my own money. I will do the cameras, I will do it all so that we have the data for three years or whatever it's needed to then feed it into Sami.

[Chris Comer]

Right? That's what we've talked about. Exactly. Something like that. And they even were like, either seif or some of our partners could even have a, like a, A, a set of cameras where we could say, here you can use our cameras for three weeks and set it up. That's the kind of thing we've talked about. Just a matter of getting it organized and set up. But I think that's.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Logistically, it would be. It is it is challenging, as you

[Chris Comer]

know, you've done this kind of work if you're, you know, this will be represented as part of the scif, you know, portfolio or whatever.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Exactly.

[Chris Comer]

We want to make sure that people are adhering to the best standards. You know, it.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

It's. Well, you're going to have to check some balances. It's not just a matter of, like, we're going to give you cameras. See you later.

[Chris Comer]

Right.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

You know, there's going to be an auditing process. There has to be an auditing process of your data. There's probably an auditing process of what it looks like in the field.

[Chris Comer]

Exactly. Someone goes out and sees it. Yes. This is set up that we were talking about. They send us a map where your locations are. Because my experience, not surprisingly, when you talk to landowners, every time you, you go there and you say, we're going to do leopard survey, they're like, oh, you should put one down here, because we saw leopards at this location. Then you're like, well, that's not really how this works. Right. You want to do it more or less. Not that it has to be random within each little grid cell, but. But you can't just put like three cameras along the one stretch of road where you. Where you saw leopards. A bunch. You have to space them out and all that. So. Yeah, but they. So we'd have to make sure that we sort of. I think there would be some sort of verification. Like the first time this individual is. You have send somebody out there with them and show them. Okay, this is how we set this up.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Agreed.

[Chris Comer]

And once you have GPS locations on all those camera sites, then. Then they can, you know, then, you know, they're going to be in that spot. You could do it that way.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

So going back to the original thing that started this all, when is. Do we know when the, the standing party, the, the cop, the animal committees meet to think about quotas again? Are we talking 2028?

[Chris Comer]

I believe 2028.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And they will look at all.

[Chris Comer]

That's my impression. You know, things can change at cities, but yes, that's my.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

It's. They'll look at leopard in 2028.

[Chris Comer]

Oh, this is just leopards, not other species, correct? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

So 2028, it'll be leopards.

[Chris Comer]

Right.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And they'll reassess quotas in 2028.

[Chris Comer]

Yes.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

So is it the plan for you to have all that data done by 2028?

[Chris Comer]

I hope so. At least enough that. That most of these countries can say something about Either. I think it. So like Botswana will have all their data done, of course. But even if like we're two thirds of the way through, I think a large part of what when you go to these views, it's quite valuable for the countries even if they haven't completed, say, well, we're in the process of doing this. Right. So even if it's not all completely done, I think the fact that we have these things in progress will be quite impactful.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

And again, I don't know what is is needed at a cop. Are they looking for peer reviewed science or they're looking for just general government data reports with summary statistics, those kinds of things.

[Chris Comer]

That's kind of that. I mean obviously peer reviewed is always great. Yeah, but, but most of what, what comes there are government reports basically.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Is, is that something SIF is looking to do? Like, oh, obviously you come from an academic background. Peer review, obviously it means nothing in, in I say nothing flippantly, but really when the rest of the world doesn't care about peer review but us. But that is something that you want to do.

[Chris Comer]

Yes, absolutely. Yeah, we definitely do. And just because it does sort of again, for the people that challenge what

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

you do, it puts a solid full stop on the process and the data.

[Chris Comer]

That's right.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Cool. Yeah, man, it's exciting. It's really cool to see. And again, that's the beauty of having a little bit of longevity, but also, you know, the support that you get from your conservation committee. Everyone's saying, okay, look. And they're volunteers.

[Chris Comer]

That's right.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Certainly they have ideas of what they want to happen. But you're the staff, you're the PhD, you're the academic. Hey, this is a route we should go. And yes, here are the benefits to hunting.

[Chris Comer]

That's right.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Yes, you're a hunting organization, of course, but rather there's some big gaps here that we can really step into. Again, like we heard today, you know, obviously cic, we're at we in Vienna right now. But cic, the philanthropic nature of the European Community is not quite what. Well, not even quite is nowhere near the American philanthropic feel of what they do. And so that has such an impact to a vision or an idea like you that just says, hey, this is what we want to do.

[Chris Comer]

Right.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

It's going to take a while. It's going to take a ton of money.

[Chris Comer]

But we can do it.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

But we can. I can. You just got to say yes and we will do it.

[Chris Comer]

Right now I give credit to our conservation committee. I think we had Some new leadership come on board with that. And nothing against the folks. No, of course they were there before, but they've really taken a. Hey, we want to. We. We believe in the vision that. That the organization has, and we want to do whatever we can to support it. I mean, they've really said the purpose of this committee is to support and enable this program however we can do it. And they have. We had, for example, we had a conservation committee chair when we were in Botswana. You know, we stayed in tents basically on these sites, and we needed

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

like,

[Chris Comer]

someone to set up the camp and cook the meals and stuff. So while we were out all day working, then we. They would do all that support logistical stuff. And one of our committee members knew somebody in Botswana, basically called him and said, hey, would you want to. Are you interested in helping these guys out? You know, of course we paid them and. And like a week later we had one. Wow. So. Which is great. It's.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Oh, it's very fortunate, especially if you've been. Again, you've done field work. I've done field work. You out all day working, when you come back now, you have to cook, right. It's like. And you have to download data and you have to process data and do

[Chris Comer]

whatever camera set up. Right?

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Exactly. Get everything ready for the next day.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Hectic. It's a lot of work.

[Chris Comer]

And I would say, I'm sure. Well, I know you've experienced, I mean, the. Some of these camp cooks in. In Africa. The, the incredible.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Unbelievable.

[Chris Comer]

Everything they cooked was over an open fire, and it was fantastic.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Unbelievable.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah. So.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Well, kudos to you, man. Kudos to you and your conservation committee and appreciate that the direction and I know we had chatted was so fortuitous that you were here. I was like, list, just do this podcast we emailed three weeks ago saying, hey, let's have a leopard podcast. But this is perfect.

[Chris Comer]

Yeah. And it's been though. This meeting's been great. I mean, we've. I think we've got some stuff that we're working on of somewhat similar here in. In. In Europe that. That you like with brown bears, for example, I think same kind of work, there are gaps everywhere, right?

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Chris Comer]

We want to see where we can help, so.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Absolutely. It's exciting stuff. Good, good. Keep it up.

[Chris Comer]

All right. Thank you.

[Interviewer/Podcast Host]

Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening, as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends, and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.