
Dr. Jerrold (Jerry) Belant, a dear old friend of Robbie's from their time as professors at Mississippi State University, joins the podcast after bumping into Robbie at the CIC general assembly in Vienna, Austria. Jerry is the Boone And Crockett Chair of Wildlife Conservation at Michigan State, and is one of the foremost scientific minds in the world in carnivore conservation (publishing over a hundred papers a year!) and brings his formidable experience to the show to educate the audience about what exactly carnivore conservation looks like.
Loading summary
FishingBooker Announcer
Planning a fishing trip shouldn't feel like a full time job. With fishingbooker.com you can find and book the perfect fishing trip within minutes. FishingBooker.com connects you with trusted fishing captains around the world. Booking is fast, easy and secure with access to verified customer reviews, loyalty rewards, and around the clock customer support. Everything you need to book with confidence is in one place. So head to fishingbooker.com and start planning your next fishing fishing adventure today. Planning a fishing trip shouldn't feel like a full time job. With fishingbooker.com you can find and book the perfect fishing trip within minutes. FishingBooker.com connects you with trusted fishing captains around the world. Booking is fast, easy and secure with access to verified customer reviews, loyalty rewards and around the clock customer support. Everything you need to book with confidence is in one place. So head to fishingbooker.com and start planning your next fishing adventure today.
Robbie
So a blast from my past. Jerry Gerald Bellunt. We were both assistant professors together at Mississippi State University back in the day and I bumped into him at the CIC General assembly in Vienna, Austria. Jerry is the Boone and Crockett Chair in Wildlife Conservation in the Department of Fisheries and Wildlife at Michigan State University. And we just caught up. Jerry is one of the foremost individuals when it comes to carnivore carnivore ecology all over the world. He is a prolific scientist, publishes over a hundred papers a year, has multiple postdocs, multiple PhDs, multiple master students all over the world, and he's just a joy to be around. I'm a big fan of Jerry. It was so good to cross paths with him and slap a podcast headset on his head. And unbelievably, this is his first podcast ever. So, but fascinating conversation. I know you'll love it. Two scientists geeking out about carnivores. What could go wrong? Enjoy.
So 5 years ago there was a reason why I started this movement. And the truth then is the truth now that we need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around what we do and who we are. There's a sweet spot with a gun, you know, too heavy and it's a
Jerry Belant
burden to walk with.
Robbie
Too light and you whipping it. Why is the project so important to the hunting community?
Jerry Belant
It's. It's a. I think it's not only
Robbie
important, I think it's. I think it's vital.
Jerry Belant
I think it's, it's just in time.
Robbie
It's like snakes and ladders.
You guys are climbing the ladder and
Jerry Belant
then somebody does something Stupid.
Robbie
And you just slide down. That is such an amazing analogy.
Snakes and ladders.
Jerry Belant
Yeah.
Robbie
You know, ivory, in my opinion, was the plastic of its age. Okay.
Jerry Belant
The expenses were going up. It goes a long way with families. We are families that do need it.
Robbie
Let me close this door because I have a little wiener dog. What are you laughing Because I said wiener?
Jerry Belant
I'm really glad you finished the sentence out. I'm sorry the first happened. What are we doing here today?
Robbie
You're telling the whole world. Yeah. Sound good? We're surrounded by Germans. Oh, look, you are pretty good. You are pretty good. Look at this fortuitous meeting of two young assistant professors. Exactly how long ago was that? That was.
Jerry Belant
Yeah.
Robbie
It could be 2000.
Jerry Belant
Yeah. Because you came in January of 2009. Right.
Robbie
Yeah.
Jerry Belant
And I was.
Robbie
You were really there.
Jerry Belant
2008. So just like four months apart.
Robbie
That's unbelievable.
Jerry Belant
I know.
Robbie
And it's unbelievable that our worlds are like. I was like, oh, we're here in Vienna, Austria. No. Hey, Jerry. Exactly. And you also just popped into my life a week and a half ago. You sent me an email out of the blue.
Jerry Belant
Yes.
Robbie
Yeah.
Jerry Belant
Just because I knew of the Origins
Robbie
foundation and humbled that you actually knew about what we were doing.
Jerry Belant
I absolutely know it. Many people do. And I think it's great what you're doing.
Robbie
Thank you, man.
Jerry Belant
No. No worries.
Robbie
Yeah. So we were young assistant professors at Ms. State University back in the day.
Jerry Belant
Yes.
Robbie
Jerry Balant, I know this is going to be a tough question for you to answer. Is there a. Is there a bigger carnivore biologist than you in the world right now?
Jerry Belant
Oh, I'm confident there are, but I
Robbie
like, come on, come on. How many papers have you published?
Jerry Belant
A fair number, I guess.
Robbie
You were publishing. You were publishing 100 a year in 2010.
Jerry Belant
That's a bit of a stretch, but we.
Robbie
Okay, 50 a year. Okay, 50. Let's just say 50 a year.
Jerry Belant
But I've been very fortunate to work with a lot of good people over the years.
Robbie
You had some great PhD students, some great postdocs.
Jerry Belant
Yes, absolutely.
Robbie
And those. Those, like, again, those circles now, like, oh, geez, give me her name. She works in Washington now. Washington, Department of Fisheries and Wildlife. Stephanie.
Jerry Belant
Stephanie.
Robbie
Yeah.
Jerry Belant
And now she just transitioned over to director of New Hampshire. Yeah, exactly.
Robbie
So like, one of the PhD students that was in your lab, or she a postdoc?
Jerry Belant
No, PhD student.
Robbie
PhD student. Stephanie Samick. Right.
Jerry Belant
Simic. Yes, absolutely.
Robbie
Is now, like, the boss.
Jerry Belant
Yes.
Robbie
Of one of the wildlife agencies in this country. In America.
Jerry Belant
Yeah. Doing great. So. No, it's. It's wonderful and it's great, and you know how it is, Robbie. You were there. But it's wonderful to work with these young, aspiring scientists. Just the enthusiasm that you get, it just energizes you. So it's great.
Robbie
No, man, it is really, really good.
You just.
Again, I do terrible job of introducing people because typically, the people that I'm talking to are friends of mine. Jerry Belant.
Jerry Belant
Yep. I'm Jerry. And right now I am a professor in Boone and Crockett, Chair of Wildlife Conservation at Michigan State University.
Robbie
But you're from there, right? You're from Michigan.
Well.
Jerry Belant
Or from Wisconsin. Yeah. So it's as close as I could get to home, Robbie. Yep. But it's a really good gig, so I'm appreciative.
Robbie
How long have you been there now?
Jerry Belant
Deep in there? Like three and a half years.
Robbie
Okay.
Jerry Belant
And just over. Yeah.
Robbie
Do you have less or more than 10 masters or PhD students right now?
Jerry Belant
Now, we have a pretty good group right now. It's kind of a mix of.
Robbie
You're not answering the question. The reason you're not answering the question is because it's more.
Jerry Belant
Yeah, there's maybe a couple more than that, but. But it's a whole range from undergrads that are working on, you know, various science projects up to postdocs. We also have, you know, administrative person and educator, an outreach coordinator, so have broadened just to help get the word
Robbie
out, because now it's. And again, maybe this is a sign of the times. Right. And I. Again, I haven't been in the academic institution since 2013 when I left. Is it. Are you. Are you yourself thinking more programmatically, or has the university system started sort of embracing more programmatic things? Because back in the day, again, you know, it was publish or perish.
Yes.
Right.
Jerry Belant
Yep.
Robbie
But nowadays we've got things like this podcast, right?
Jerry Belant
Oh, exactly.
Robbie
Starting a podcast or building a program, like a Wild Foods.
Jerry Belant
Yes.
Robbie
Program.
It is 2026, and, my friends, big changes have happened in the world of firearm suppressors. The $200 tax stamp fee is now gone. Huge win for hunters, huge win for shooters, and a huge win for your wallets if you're thinking about elevating your shooting experience and adding a suppressor. Silence Essential is the best way to shop. And you don't even have to get off your couch to do it. Go to silenceessential.com, browse hundreds of suppressor options. They literally have all of the popular makes and models. Then their experts will walk you through setting up your account, creating a free NFA trust, and then submitting your application to the atf. Once approved, Silence Essential ships your new suppressor directly to your door. That's when you're going to have to
essentially get off the couch.
It's a game changer, guys. You haven't done it yet. Do it. The old days of waiting eight to 10 months on a suppressor are gone. It's more like two weeks. Some have even gotten their suppressors in shorter timeframes. It's never been easier to start shooting suppressed. Get started today by visiting silencer central.com it's really the simplest way to get your suppressors. Bushnell is eager to help you get set up for conservation success. That's right. They want to help you. The conservation and research community is dominated by good people doing good things and and investing significant time and effort for the benefit of habitat and the species.
So what do you need to do?
Pretty simple. Send us your conservation story and or your conservation wish. Could be managing whitetails, could be understanding your environment or species or something else related to conservation. What would you be able to do if you had a great trail camera setup? We will select the best story every other month and sends you a camera bundle. Cell camera, normal SD camera, SD cards as well as optics. Everything you need to get set up for success. I can't wait to see what you submit. You can email us, DM us, message us, whatever you want. We are not hard to find. Good luck. Okay, don't skip past this. This isn't your regular ad. This is me asking a favor of you, our listener. We have a new YouTube channel specifically for our podcasts. The Origins Foundation Podcast. Just Google it, put it in YouTube and subscribe and then share it with your friends. That's where we're going to have all of our podcast videos in one spot. So if you don't want to just listen to this in your vehicle, you want to watch it on YouTube as you are sitting working during the day, put it on your headphones and listen and watch at the same time. I need you to subscribe to the Origins foundation podcast channel on YouTube. You know me, just randomly, I'm going to pick probably one or two or three YouTube subscribers to the new podcast channel and send you something. We've got great partners that give us free stuff to give away. Why not give it to you guys? So go ahead and subscribe. The Origins Foundation Podcast Channel. Not only you're going to watch some cool podcasts, but you could win some cool stuff, too.
Jerry Belant
Yeah, no, you're right, Robby. And I think it's actually both, both the university and myself. I'm just recognizing the importance, you know, like you say, publish or perish. You know, you often heard of that, you know, especially when you and I were first starting out as assistant professors. It's still important, you know, as scientists. It's our primary currency, if you will, and very important in terms of evaluation, promotion, all of that good stuff. But increasingly we recognize not only as a profession, as academia, as a society, but. But it's so important to translate the science that we do, you know, to the broader publics and to decision makers.
Robbie
Has that translation changed since you got involved in 2008?
Jerry Belant
Absolutely. Like this podcast, for example. This is an. Podcasts are an incredible medium to get the word out on, in our case, wildlife conservation. And so social media is another one that's really taken off and it's being increasingly used and largely to good effect in terms of just creating awareness of the importance of conservation and many other things.
Robbie
Again, things have changed a lot since 2008, 2009. There's also been a rise, and I noticed it in the first six years that I was an assistant professor, a rise of sort of these pay to play publications.
Jerry Belant
Right.
Robbie
And so anybody can. Anybody can get peer review. Now, how have you felt that sort of come into your field, especially in the wildlife conservation field that we live in? And I'll add one other element. You're a hunter. I'm a hunter. I'm a pro hunting, you know, run a pro hunting organization. You clearly are pro consumptive use, sustainable use of wildlife. Yet there's. There can be people who can publish science, quote, unquote.
Jerry Belant
Yes, I'm glad you said that because the listeners wouldn't be able to see the air quotes that you showed.
Robbie
Correct.
Jerry Belant
So, yeah, there's.
Robbie
You're right, but it goes the same way for us. Right. I'm not saying that it's only the antis doing that. It's the pros also saying on both sides.
Jerry Belant
Yeah, you can see it on both sides. And to me, what's really important as a scientist is to maintain my objectivity. And part of what I really want to do is simply get the facts out and also to separate science from values, because often, even within our profession, that there's.
Robbie
You think values influence their science?
Jerry Belant
Yes, and. Well, how I always think of it. And there's probably other ways too, but to me, the role of science is to help inform the outcomes of value made decisions. And I've worked really hard in my career to stay true to that objectivity and to not interject my values. Have you, my work.
Robbie
Have you come across a situation where the science has gone against your values?
Jerry Belant
Yes. Yep. And so I have my personal values and then I have my professional obligations. And irrespective of the outcome, my job as a scientist is to get that information out. And also I realize that my values aren't static. I can learn, you know, and my values can change based on this knowledge.
Robbie
Have you gotten, do you have an example of that? I know I'm putting on the spot.
Jerry Belant
You are putting me on the spot.
Robbie
And that's, I'm just, I'm just saying like, you know, again, that we've got to be. And I want to be from an origins.
Just.
I'll give you some breathing room so you can think.
Jerry Belant
No, that's okay. I'm trying to come up with a.
Robbie
But the origins, like the Origins Foundation. Right. We're pro sustainable use.
Jerry Belant
Exactly.
Robbie
That's what we are.
Jerry Belant
But, but, and maybe broad.
Robbie
I've also got to be okay. When I see somebody doing something that is not. It doesn't fit with who we are. Yeah, it doesn't. And it doesn't align with who we are. And, or the science is showing, hey, you shouldn't be hunting yet somebody's promoting hunting. I've got to say, hey, we shouldn't be hunting.
Jerry Belant
Exactly, you're absolutely right. And like, broadly speaking, my, like you say, Robbie, personally, I'm very pro sustainable use. You know, I'm a hunter myself. Professionally, I'm basically neutral and whatever the science is, is what I put out. And so though I'm pro sustainable use, I'll be the first one to say if something like a situation of over harvest, for example, is adversely affecting a species, I'll be the first one to say it. You know, if I have that information. Even though I'm pro sustainable use, I'm not pro over exploitation, for example.
Robbie
So let me dive into. Because this is where I wanted this podcast to go. Let's talk about lions.
FishingBooker Announcer
Sure.
Robbie
You know a lot about lions.
Jerry Belant
A bit. Yeah.
Robbie
What, what's your background? Tell me a little bit of the stuff that you've done on lions.
Jerry Belant
Well, I've worked in lions for about five years in Tanzania.
Robbie
Okay.
Jerry Belant
And a big part of what our work was is to develop low cost alternative to estimating lion abundance. The thing with lions, just like most other large carnivores, is that they're pretty Difficult to get good estimates of.
Robbie
Why is that?
Jerry Belant
They tend to be low density, cover large spatial extents. And so it's not as much as the technique can't be developed, but it's very expensive to do that over large spatial extents. And for lions, there really wasn't a good low cost alternative for doing that. And so I was charged, so to speak, with trying to develop a technique that could be used to do that very thing, estimate lion abundance over large areas. And so what we did is kind of a series of studies. We first started out.
Robbie
But what can you do? It's only cameras, right?
Jerry Belant
Well, there's.
Robbie
Can you do something else?
Jerry Belant
Well, there's cameras, tracks, surveys, Cullen surveys, genetic mark recapture, individual identification. There's kind of a broad range of techniques. But if you think about those, each of those comes with a cost. And that cost is actual dollars for equipment, dollars for DNA analysis, dollars for
Robbie
personnel, transport vehicles around, run, run.
Jerry Belant
And for lions at that time, the most common technique was track surveys. And initially I was very excited about track surveys because it's low cost in terms of equipment. Basically you need a vehicle, but you also need roads. And someone sitting on the bunk.
Robbie
But you also need roads.
Jerry Belant
And you need roads. Exactly. But if you had those conditions, there's potential.
Robbie
What kind of road density would you need for a truck server to be successful?
Jerry Belant
Well, that's the thing is that's never really been addressed. Well, and part of what it was is there had been some techniques developed regarding tract surveys to estimate abundance. And what we wanted to do is basically validate those techniques and try it again, make sure it works, and see if we could refine it in any way to make it even better. And what we found though, is that the track surveys did not work very well. We did our work in the Serengeti ecosystem, you know, Serengeti national park, in adjacent protected areas, you know, immediately surrounding it. But what we found is that there was incredible variability in lion track deposition on the road. Like basically how many times they cross the road. And just like you said earlier, Robbie,
Robbie
or one lion walking down the road.
Jerry Belant
Yes. And how do you discern that? Also, substrate is a big deal. If you don't have nice sandy or soil, they're not going to lay tracks. If it's mud, you might get lucky, but they don't tend to like to walk in the mud. Yep. And so it's very difficult. And then we found that there's a lot more than having a road and to estimate line abundance, we found moon phase was largely you know, hugely important. As was two line moves. Absolutely.
Robbie
Gotcha.
Jerry Belant
It has a big influence.
Robbie
Oh, for sure.
In distribution of prey. If there's no prey around, why is there going to be a line in?
Jerry Belant
There's no lions. And if there's moon, that can alter foraging efficiency of lions because they're much easier to detect. And so there's a lot of things driving that. And what we found is that you can have doing track surveys from one week to the next week, you can get markedly different estimates of abundance, even if you're using the exact criteria recommended. So what we found is that it just didn't work. And there was a lot of reasons for that. So we moved into other techniques. And also like the idea of call in surveys.
Robbie
For example, Colleen, I think Colleen, big up at the carnival. NASA carnival project uses call in surveys tremendously.
Jerry Belant
Exactly. And there's a lot of folks that have done it. And one of the earlier problems that we had with call in surveys was that lions quickly habituated to the call. You'd play calls of like hyena whoop call, spotted hyena or wildebeest. What we found is warthog really works well. You can turn a lion on a dime with a warthog in distress call.
Robbie
Wow.
Jerry Belant
But what we found is lions, they habituate. They could pretty much very rapidly figure out that, oh, it's those people in the Land Rover playing calls again, you know, really? And so they would stop coming. And what we found is a detection probability. Maybe 60% of the time when you broadcast, you'd have lions come in. But the second time it might be 30%. The third time it might be 10%.
Robbie
Oh, shit.
Jerry Belant
And suddenly you realize I cannot get a good estimate because in the types of models we use, you have to remove that habituation and remove that bias because there are other things that affect it. Like if lions have just made a kill, they're not coming in. You know, they have all the food they need. So you have to go repeat repeated times. But what we were able to figure out, Robbie, that I was very excited about, is that we found that by altering the call types in these surveys that you could keep lions coming in and reduce that bias.
Robbie
Then a hyena, then a warthog, then a wildebeest.
Jerry Belant
Exactly. So we kind of set it up where each time we went out, we played a single lioness roar. Just because that's the smallest unit. And anything can take a single female. You know, if you have two females, they'll push out a single. But we Coupled that with hyena on whoop calls and a prey. And so we'd alternate between warthog, zebra and wildebeest. But each time we'd also change the hyenas whoop call and we'd also change the lioness roar. And what we found is by having different calls that kept the lion's attention,
Robbie
that they would come in, reduce the habituation.
Jerry Belant
It very much reduced it. And what we were able to do is provide like the first actual credible line abundance estimate for Serengeti National Park.
Robbie
Wow. So is anybody now using that technique?
Jerry Belant
Yeah, there's a number of people using that technique. And we weren't the ones to originate broadcast, you know, vocalizations. It's been around a long time. But we were the ones to refine it and reduce that habituation such that you can get good population estimates now from it.
Robbie
So you've done some line work. What other. You've obviously done a ton of mountain lion.
Jerry Belant
Yeah, I've done mountain lion work, done a lot of wolf work. You know, predator, prey relations a lot with bears, a number of carnivores. I've had the good fortune of getting to work with those a fair amount. So.
Robbie
So if you, if you want to, if you look across the landscape at your. You all of the carnivores that you work with, is there a common issue people?
Jerry Belant
Yeah, it always comes back to us, Ravi.
Robbie
Okay, and what is that? Is it a I want to hear from you, like, what is that people issue?
Jerry Belant
Oh, it picks something and you can find an example of an issue, you know, between large carnivores and people. As, you know, for anything surrounding humans and large carnivores, you have the entire spectrum of attitudes toward them, you know, ranging from, you know, fascination, passion, you know, to I'd rather not have them around and everything in between. And so it just depends on who that person is, what their occupation is or their relationship to the animal is and what that animal is actually doing.
Robbie
What do you think it is in the human psyche that causes such a disparate relationship with these, dare I say I would call them apex predators?
Jerry Belant
Right.
Robbie
You're not dealing with any other. You might have done some work on lower sort of meso predators, but apex predators, black bears, grizzlies, wolves, lions, I
Jerry Belant
think a lot of it. And it's not just one extreme or the other. I suggest it's like every thing in between as well. You know, where you have. You have people that are neutral on it as well. But you do have a relative stronger dichotomy.
Robbie
Do you find people that are neutral?
Jerry Belant
Yeah, like a lot, A lot. I haven't actually done a survey, but the surveys that have been done by a scientist. Yeah, there's neutral people, sure. Yep. People are just kind of indifferent, you know. Yep. It's less so with a apex predator or large carnivore than like you say with a, with a meso carnivore. But yeah, there's plenty of neutral as well.
Robbie
I have this hypothesis that.
Jerry Belant
Oh, let's hear it.
Robbie
And drawing back to my true science roots, that there is such a disparate relationship with predators because you have on one hand somebody who is the double, you know, triple S crowd, shoot, shovel, shout up kind of crowd. And then you have the I want to cohabitate sort of mentality crowd. Right. That I'm, they're cuddly there, I want to be with them, I want to touch them, I want to be them. That's, that's how far apart the apex predator human relationship is.
Jerry Belant
And I think what it is is not that there aren't the neutral, but that there's a larger number on those extremes. And those are the individuals that on average seem to be more vocal. Like you'll hear from them, whereas the ones in the middle, you're not going to hear from them.
Robbie
You know, I think we have these extremes. I think we have this, the triple S crowd extreme because of, I think tied to our ancestry, human ancestry, and our relationship with apex predators back through time, I. E. We see them as a competitor. We see them as somebody like, hey, this is something that has been something that I innately have been scared of, innately hate because they've taken my food kind of thing. And then on this hand, it is the, the hand that is I love predator. I love them. I see my. It's that they see human characteristics that they value in this apex predator. They see the maternal nature, they see the strength, they see the confidence. They see like intelligence in the eyes. That's to me two very different.
Jerry Belant
Well, what I wonder though, are they actually different or do both of those extremes have different amounts of those same elements? Because I agree with you that maybe we're both wrong, Robby. But I think this whole concept of risk, if you will, you know, as a competitor for food, as a competitor for, with wolves and white tailed deer, for a common prey species, you see that or hear about that a fair amount. You know, also if there is genetic predisposition, you know, humans weren't always the predator that we are now. You Know, you know, within the environment, you know, we're also at risk of predation ourselves, you know, at one time. But then I, I think like those people that may think that way also recognize the strength, you know, of that animal. You know, they may well recognize the maternal instinct. But I think a lot of it too now is just with the relative experiences that we have and how direct those experiences are with the animal that will influence our emotions or feelings toward them.
Robbie
Do you have. And again, I'm throwing you on the spot here.
Jerry Belant
That's okay. Give it a go.
Robbie
I've also got this other sort of. Especially when it deals with apex predators, you hear a lot of coexistence language.
Jerry Belant
Yes. Okay.
Robbie
I believe that for the majority of. On the sort of this hand, again, the hand that is we want as many predators don't touch a predator, no management allowed of predators is a cohabitation argument, not a coexistence argument.
Jerry Belant
Yes, yep, I see what you mean. And I think of coexistence as more broadly co occurring, you know, and part of it too is I think of humans. We are part of the environment, part of the ecosystem, and that means we do have a role, we do interact with these. And with these human conditions that you were just describing, we were just talking about a minute ago. To me, in the extreme ends of that continuum, they're somewhat diametrically opposed. And what we as scientists is to try to understand how the continuum operates in relation to the animals so that people that make management decisions can manage species in a way that accommodates, you know, to the extent possible, that breadth of human experience in relation to it.
Robbie
Do you think co occurrence involves these apex predators having a healthy fear of us as humans?
Jerry Belant
That would be value oriented. And I, I tend to stay away from the values.
Robbie
Such a scientist.
Jerry Belant
Come on, it's my role, man. That's my job. I can't even break that for you, Robbie. Sorry, Sorry, buddy. But many people would think that, that,
Robbie
Yeah, I, to me again, I guess that's why you're still a professor and I am not. I think that like even look at elephants, I think the reason why we have human conflicts, human wildlife conflicts, the way that we have them, or habitat issues associated with animals is because there is, you know, we are predators in our landscape. We are a part of the system. And when we are removed as those predators, the animals and wildlife that we interact with don't see us as those predators any longer. And we're not creating these. And again, this is a controversial statement. We're not creating these landscapes of fear. Because when I say landscapes of fear, somebody goes, well, that sounds like a bad thing. That doesn't sound like a healthy thing. And if we're seeing that wildlife have these, again, I don't believe have these human characteristics, then it's just a part of nature. That's just how it's been. Right. So, for instance, elephants. I'll use elephants as an example. Kruger national park just came out with a new elephant management plan. And Rich Saori is a phenomenal section ranger in the north of Kruger and he's seen the riverine forests absolutely get decimated, the fever tree forest being absolutely decimated. And the reason being, one of the hypotheses is that, and it's not a hypothesis to the change in, in vegetation is that, you know, back in the day when you used to have elephants in these systems moving through these systems and humans in these systems, because Kruger doesn't have any humans left in the system. They've been removed from the system because of the whole wilderness national park scenario, that these, the places that were landscapes of fear were the rivers because that's where humans lived. And so elephants recognize that as like, hey, that's not a place that I want to be. It's risky for me. I don't like it. Somebody may, you know, one of my brethren again, whether you think they think this way or not, dies. It's just not pleasant. And so we're going to slip in at night to get the water that we need and we're going to slip out and leave it. And then in the grander scheme of habitat quality and vegetation, those same systems, those same areas, those riverine areas, are the ice cream aisles of the grocery store. And so you don't want. If me and you were locked in a grocery store for 30 days, we would park off in the ice cream aisle and we would eat every single tub of ice cream until they were gone. And then we're going to look at each other going, I don't want to go to the KLR, do you?
Jerry Belant
Let's figure out not after 30 days, I think.
Robbie
No, exactly.
And so that's what's happened with elephants, is that they're. Again, we're going straying off topic here, but I think, and Richard believes, and so does Sam Ferreira now, hey, we need to try and figure out, it's not mass culling, it's clever elephant management in specific areas where they're having this degradated effect.
Jerry Belant
Well, is the degradation, is that a consequence of elephants not being killed? Or is it a consequence of elephants losing their fear, if you will, or that risk of the riverine habitat, long term, resulting in population increase is because of a lack of prediction, predation.
Robbie
I think what if I had to channel my inner Sam Ferreira? Sam would say, it's not a population issue, it's a locality effect issue.
Jerry Belant
Okay, so they're just spending increasing time because of the lack of risk, because
Robbie
of the lack of risk. And this is where the good vegetation is and we have water. Why are we going anywhere? And so we have to think outside the box now to say, how do we create a landscape of fear in these environments to give the habitat a break, to be able to regenerate these forests back into what they were supposed to be.
Jerry Belant
So you're proposing to introduce some risk along that river, Correct? Yep. And so how.
Robbie
And so the same thing for carnivores.
Jerry Belant
Exactly. So basically introduce predation or predation risk,
Robbie
I should say predation pressure to say,
Jerry Belant
hey, will it be human based or will it be apex predator based or both. And how far back would you go in time?
Robbie
So I think that we're not, we definitely do not want to get into a rewind scenario. Right. Because that's something that somebody will say, hey, there's again, using elephants. There used to be 4 million elephants. Every single NGO that is protecting elephants say there used to be 400 million elephants. There's only half a million left. We've lost 90% of the elephants. When, when did we have 4 million elephants in Africa? Well, in the whole 1700s. Same thing with grizzlies. Grizzlies to be introduced in California right now.
Jerry Belant
Same thing with wolves. And so the land conditions are not the same as they were. And so it's a really important point, and one that a lot of people struggle with, is where are we setting the clock?
Robbie
I don't think we should be setting the clock. I think we should recognize that we have a growing human population that has growing pressures on wildlife. And that is the driver. And the whole argument that is, well, humans are the problem. Yes, we are. But you can't say, I'm going to off Jerry because he's the problem. Like this whole rhetoric like get rid of the humans
Jerry Belant
and that's the whole thing. Robbie, too, is, you know, one of the biggest drivers of not just large carnivores, but biodiversity more broadly is land use change. And, you know, kind of rivals climate change, you know, in terms of by 2050, which is really not that far away. You know, they estimate as much as 3 1/2 million square kilometers of land will be converted to agricultural production to increase that very population of humans that you were just talking about. And so you're absolutely right. We are the problem. But we need to manage wisely. I think within context, you know, that we're not going anywhere, at least not right now. How do we manage effectively so that we can not cohabitate but coexist?
Robbie
Have you. And I haven't. So I'm asking you the question. Have you looked at policies and regulations around predator management, apex predator management? What's your opinion on that? Has it changed to the better? Are we in a better situation? What I'm trying to get at here is there's rhetoric and narrative out there that says, again, let's just use wolves, right? If you relegate wolves to state management, we're going to extirpate them on the state level. We're going to go back to extirpation, we're going to go back to extinction.
Jerry Belant
Yes, I've heard that, and Robbie, I've not found that to be the case, so to speak. In the U.S. state wildlife agencies do a remarkably good job of maintaining viable populations of their wildlife. It's functionally a mandate of all the states. Even those states that implement harvest, you know, they're not into the extirpation business. You know, that's not what state wildlife agencies are about. They're about managing the corpus, if you will, or making sure that species is there for future generations. And so they, they do a really good job.
Robbie
Do you think that mindset has changed since, say, the 50s?
Jerry Belant
Yes, absolutely. It's changed. And broadly, it's changed for the better. And not just us, but I mean worldwide, for the better.
Robbie
The better for what?
Jerry Belant
The better for coexistence. And coexistence does not mean laissez faire, you know, it can mean sustainable use, you know, because again, we as people or humans, we're part of the system. You know, we evolved as omnivores, which means that not only plants, but we also eat meat. You know, we're evolutionarily adapted to that. And so sustainable use of wildlife to me just makes so much sense. You know, I think about animals that are harvested sustainably every year. They're there, they're doing well. It doesn't mean that we can't do things even better than we're doing today. But I think of the alternatives to that in terms of, you know, is it better to use sustainable wildlife to the extent that you can versus domestic Livestock versus converting forests to corn, for example.
Robbie
Right.
Jerry Belant
And so sustainable use of wildlife as a food source will never replace commercial agriculture. They can't, of course, you know. Of course. But it's, to me, it's another food system, if you will, just like aquaculture, commercial fisheries, you know, domestic livestock, crop agriculture. They're all food systems.
Robbie
And it's significant. Like the stuff that you've been doing, Shane Mahoney's been doing.
Jerry Belant
Exactly.
Robbie
You know, it's, it's, it's not trivial.
Jerry Belant
No, it's not trivial. And it doesn't replace anything. It's complementary. And there's real value in having them, multiple food systems, if you will, for resiliency. And so there's value in redundancy, having multiple systems, because you have change in the amount available through time. And if one system is a little less in a certain amount of time or period of time, another one can maybe help take its place so that we can sustain ourselves better than in the absence of one or more of those systems.
Robbie
Now, I asked you the regulation question because obviously we get that a lot with wolves.
Jerry Belant
Yeah. The big thing with regulation, Robbie, it seems to me, is that we have a lot of conflation with science and values again. And it's kind of almost like a weaponization of science, if you will, where it's selective cherry picking, if you will, certain facts to support a value, support a position. Exactly.
Robbie
Happens on both sides.
Jerry Belant
It absolutely does. And to me, like the whole value thing, it's very important. We all, as people have our values, but we need to argue those or discuss those, debate those for the values that they are. And by and large, it's not that a value is right or wrong so much as they differ, you know, but the science over here, it doesn't change. I mean, we can learn more and gain more, but it's meant to be objective and ideally without integration of value, you know, but what happens when you conflate those is that people try to use science to support a value, whereas science is just meant to tell you what the outcome of the value is. But that's a huge problem.
Robbie
Do you think it's the way that you just put it sort of framed out in my brain. Do you think then that's the biggest
Jerry Belant
issue
Robbie
that we face? And I can see this from both sides, the anti side and the pro side. When science that is without value judgments and objective argues that your values are wrong.
Jerry Belant
Yeah, and it doesn't work that way. And also too.
Robbie
Why doesn't it work that way?
Jerry Belant
Because science cannot tell you if a value's right or wrong values are.
Robbie
But it can provide you data that shows you whether your values are justified or not.
Jerry Belant
Well, not, not really. It can show you what the outcome or likely outcome of that value is.
Robbie
Give me an example.
Jerry Belant
Okay, so. If you, let's say if you harvest each year 32% of your gray wolf population, your population will in all likelihood decline. Okay, so there's people that would say I don't want the wolf population to decline.
Robbie
Right.
Jerry Belant
You know, and there's people that would say I want it to decline. Science isn't telling you that wanting a wolf population to decline or not is right or wrong. It's just telling you the outcome that it will likely decline. If that makes sense. And so the value is independent of the science. They're separate arguments. But science informs that outcome. But it can't tell you that value is right or wrong because whether it's right or wrong is of course value based, not science based.
Robbie
So maybe I can, maybe I'll, maybe this is overly simplistic. So I see science that says, and I'll use, let's use Idaho as an example. Because I use Idaho a lot. Idaho has,200 wolves. They harvest 400 plus or minus every year. Population is fairly stable around thousand 2,200 wolves. They have every mechanism under the sun to take a wolf out. Okay. Somebody would say state management of wolves will lead to wolf extubation. I, we do not believe in state management wolf. The value that I have is I don't believe in wolf management. Yet here's the science that shows that the data saying, the science is saying that even at this level of whatever it's not 32%, whatever it is. Right. Is not having an effect on the wolf population. Did I mess up? Did I miss values in science?
Jerry Belant
Yes, because. Well, not. I shouldn't say you messed it up, but I guess my. What is that person's value exactly?
Robbie
Maybe I didn't, maybe I didn't project
Jerry Belant
a value because that person's value wouldn't be to say like wolves will become extirpated. That's more a statement. More statement, more objective. The value would be I don't want wolves to be extirpated or I don't want wolves to decline. That would be the value, if that makes sense.
Robbie
Okay, so in that value, if the value is I don't want wolves to decline and the science shows that they don't, even though you take, you harvest them, does the science prove your value? To be wrong.
Jerry Belant
No. Nope. The science says the outcome is different than your value. If you wanted them to do that.
Robbie
Okay.
Jerry Belant
Yep.
Robbie
Okay. The outcome is different to the value.
Jerry Belant
Exactly.
Robbie
You can have your value, but it's wrong.
Jerry Belant
No, it's not. No, it's not wrong.
Robbie
I'm playing Devil's Advil.
Jerry Belant
I know you are, but you still may desire a certain outcome. But if the science says the outcome is not likely to be that, that wouldn't actually change your value. You'd still want that. It just isn't happening.
Robbie
So then let me. So I purposely did this because do you think then that's the issue writ large. Like when you take a step back and you go to the 50,000 foot level, that regardless of the outcome of
Jerry Belant
science, people still have their values.
Robbie
People still have their values and their values won't change sometimes. Your value will never change, regardless of the outcome.
Jerry Belant
Exactly. And when you go back to the apex predators, the real challenge is that you have that broad continuum of values that are skewed to the extremes more than they are for other species.
Robbie
That's where we started with.
Exactly.
Jerry Belant
Exactly. How can you possibly. You actually cannot manage for that full continuum evenly, so to speak. So what many agencies do is they strive to do well. They all do the best they can and they all do a good job. But you try to manage for as broad as you can, recognizing in something controversial, like large carnivores typically are, you are never going to satisfy all of your constituents. You know, it's really. It's not possible.
Robbie
So as we, as we wrap this up, obviously you've done a lot of carnival work.
Jerry Belant
Yep, a fair amount.
Robbie
So tell me, I want to know the coolest carnival project you think you've done.
Jerry Belant
Boy, that's actually kind of hard. And I think I would.
Robbie
Oh, give me the coolest place that you've done carnival work.
Jerry Belant
I go back.
Robbie
Serengeti is pretty cool. Yep, Serengeti's pretty cool for somebody from Wisconsin.
Jerry Belant
Exactly. It's very cool. The other is really cool is the work I was able to do in Alaska with brown bears. That was also very cool. Completely different, of course, than the Serengeti, but both just amazing.
Robbie
What'd you do in Alaska?
Jerry Belant
A couple of things. Looked at brown bear co occurrence with black bears to figure out how these two species partition resources and coexist, not cohabitate, but coexist on the landscape. And then also looked at.
Robbie
And it's true. Right. They don't really cohabitate. They occupy different niches in the Ecosystem.
Jerry Belant
Exactly, exactly. You know, they live broadly on the same landscape but they use the resources differently that allows them to coexist. Coexist. But in the case there of course some with their body size, brown bears dominate, you know, so black bears kind of operate around the edges, so to speak of what the brown bears niche is.
Robbie
Okay. So that you did coexistence. Anything else?
Jerry Belant
Coexistence. Also looked at harvest management of brown bears like on the Kodiak Archipelago. And as you know, brown bears on Kodiak are huge, incredibly popular as a both not only for hunting, sustainable use hunting, but also for tourism, you know, so very popular. And we evaluated Alaska Department of Fish and Games management strategy on brown bears and found they did a fantastic job. They have a conservative harvest of bears so they can do it sustainably and allow that population to actually increase, if you will. So remarkable job. And. And it's a great example of meeting multiple stakeholder preferences and uses in the same landscape.
Robbie
And brown bear management is pretty tricky because of long gestation periods, right? As I understand it.
Jerry Belant
Yeah. Or not even. Yeah, they have long gestation but that long time to wean.
Robbie
Long time to wean. Sorry, that's what I meant.
Jerry Belant
Exactly right, exactly right.
Robbie
Between cub times is exactly that interbirth
Jerry Belant
interval we often think of it as can easily be three years. And so recruitment is slow. But they're also long lived species though, as you know. And so in species like that you tend to need more conservative harvest than you would say on white tailed deer for example. And they have a low relative harvest on the archipelago and what it's resulted in is a very robust and vibrant population that actually is increasing in size through time. So they've done a great job, you know, of allowing sustainable use of that resource, both consumptive and non consumptive through viewing and observation. So yeah, it's great.
Robbie
Amazing.
Jerry Belant
So yeah, two awesome areas.
Robbie
Amazing. Well Jerry, it's been a pleasure to have our paths crossed. And now that they've crossed, I'm sure there's going to be plenty opportunities in the future.
Jerry Belant
No, that sounds wonderful. It's been great to see you after all these years. Great to be on.
Robbie
You're way greater than me, so. But we both are gray. We both are getting gray.
Jerry Belant
Absolutely.
Robbie
Good to see you, bud.
Jerry Belant
You betcha.
Robbie
Well, that's it for today. Appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.
Episode 649: Jerrold Belant — Whose Values Matter in Large Carnivore Conservation?
Date: June 23, 2026
Host: Robbie, The Origins Foundation
Guest: Dr. Jerry Belant, Boone and Crockett Chair in Wildlife Conservation, Michigan State University
This episode tackles one of the thorniest dilemmas in wildlife conservation: whose values actually matter when managing large carnivores? Host Robbie reconnects with friend and eminent carnivore ecologist Dr. Jerry Belant for a candid, in-depth discussion about science, values, policy, and the real-world challenges of apex predator management. Through anecdotes, scientific insights, and philosophical exploration, the two scientists dig into how objectivity, emotion, and societal pressures intersect—and sometimes clash—in efforts to conserve and sustainably use large carnivores like lions, wolves, and bears.
Spectrum of Attitudes:
Why the Extremes?
This episode provides a rare, unfiltered view into the nuanced interplay of science, ethics, and values at the heart of carnivore conservation. Dr. Belant’s insistence on scientific objectivity, coupled with his recognition that management must acknowledge deeply rooted and diverse human values, offers a potent reminder: conservation decisions are as much about people as they are about wildlife. The conversation is loaded with real-world examples—lions, bears, elephants, and wolves—and pulls no punches in discussing the challenges, successes, and inevitable controversies in managing apex predators.
For anyone wrestling with “whose values matter” in conservation, this episode is essential listening.