Episode 649 - Jerrold Belant || Whose values matter in large carnivore conservation?

Summary

Podcast Summary: The Origins Foundation Podcast

Episode 649: Jerrold Belant — Whose Values Matter in Large Carnivore Conservation?
Date: June 23, 2026
Host: Robbie, The Origins Foundation
Guest: Dr. Jerry Belant, Boone and Crockett Chair in Wildlife Conservation, Michigan State University

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Overview

This episode tackles one of the thorniest dilemmas in wildlife conservation: whose values actually matter when managing large carnivores? Host Robbie reconnects with friend and eminent carnivore ecologist Dr. Jerry Belant for a candid, in-depth discussion about science, values, policy, and the real-world challenges of apex predator management. Through anecdotes, scientific insights, and philosophical exploration, the two scientists dig into how objectivity, emotion, and societal pressures intersect—and sometimes clash—in efforts to conserve and sustainably use large carnivores like lions, wolves, and bears.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Academic Background and Approach

• Jerry’s Background:
  • Prolific carnivore ecologist, currently at Michigan State University ([06:06]).
  • "I've been very fortunate to work with a lot of good people over the years." (Jerry, [04:50])
• Value of Mentorship:
  • Notable for training students who become leaders in wildlife management agencies, such as Dr. Stephanie Simic ([05:22]).
  • “It's wonderful to work with these young, aspiring scientists. Their enthusiasm just energizes you.” (Jerry, [05:32])

Evolution in Science Communication (2008–2026)

• Shift Beyond “Publish or Perish”:
  • The role of scientists now includes outreach, social media, and translating findings for the public and policymakers ([10:40]).
  • “Increasingly we recognize not only as a profession, as academia, as a society, but it's so important to translate the science that we do … to the broader publics and to decision makers.” (Jerry, [10:57])

The Problem of “Pay to Play” Science

• Rise of Publication Biases:
  • Proliferation of low-bar “peer review” outlets allows both pro- and anti-hunting factions to publish papers supporting their views. Objectivity is threatened when values drive what is called “science” ([12:07]).
  • “You can see it on both sides. And to me, what's really important as a scientist is to maintain my objectivity … to separate science from values.” (Jerry, [12:57])

Science & Values: Collision and Separation

• Maintaining Objectivity:
  • Jerry’s ideal: science should inform value-based decisions but not be biased by the values of the scientist ([13:22]).
  • “The role of science is to help inform the outcomes of value-made decisions. And I’ve worked really hard in my career to stay true to that objectivity...” (Jerry, [13:24])
  • He’s encountered instances where his scientific findings conflicted with his personal values: “Irrespective of the outcome, my job as a scientist is to get that information out.” (Jerry, [13:55])

Lion Conservation Techniques

• Challenges in Lion Abundance Estimation: ([16:05]–[22:45])
  • Low population density, vast home ranges, and the high cost of traditional survey methods make population estimation difficult.
  • Track surveys—once popular—proved unreliable due to varying lion behavior and environmental factors.
  • “Moon phase was largely, you know, hugely important as was ... lion movement ... in distribution of prey.” (Jerry, [19:23])
  • Call-In Surveys: Developed refined call sequence strategies to reduce habituation and increase detection (novel use of alternating prey distress calls).
    • “We found that by altering the call types in these surveys you could keep lions coming in and reduce that bias.” (Jerry, [21:59])
    • Resulted in “the first actual credible lion abundance estimate for Serengeti National Park.” (Jerry, [22:45])

People: The Ultimate “Problem” in Carnivore Conservation

• Spectrum of Attitudes:

  • Human views toward carnivores range from fear and hostility (“shoot, shovel, shut up”) to idolization (“they’re cuddly, I want to touch them”), with many neutral or indifferent in between. Vocal minorities on the extremes dominate discourse ([23:43]–[26:16]).
  • “Anything surrounding humans and large carnivores, you have the entire spectrum of attitudes ... from fascination, passion, to ‘I'd rather not have them around’ and everything in between.” (Jerry, [23:53])

• Why the Extremes?

  • Host Robbie hypothesizes ancestral competition and fear vs. anthropomorphism drive the two extreme attitudes.
  • Jerry agrees, highlighting that personal experience and cultural context shape these positions. “A lot of it too now is just the relative experiences that we have and how direct those experiences are with the animal that will influence our emotions or feelings toward them.” (Jerry, [28:24])

“Coexistence” vs. “Cohabitation”

• Coexistence:
  • Jerry frames it scientifically as humans and predators occupying the same landscape, not necessarily interacting closely ([29:16]–[30:37]).
  • “We are part of the environment ... and interact with these large carnivores; we try to understand that continuum so people making management decisions can do so in a way that accommodates the breadth of experience.” (Jerry, [29:37])
• “Landscapes of Fear”:
  • Host suggests removing human threats can upset the balance, e.g., elephants overusing rivers in Kruger due to reduced predation/human risk ([31:10]–[35:24]).
  • Jerry discusses whether such ecological issues are due to population or locality effects, and how carefully introduced predation risk could restore balance.

Human Population, Land Use Change, and Apex Predators

• "One of the biggest drivers of not just large carnivores, but biodiversity more broadly is land-use change ... rivals climate change." (Jerry, [36:58])
• By 2050, an estimated 3.5 million km² of land will be converted to agriculture for growing human populations.

State vs. Federal Carnivore Management

• Robbie raises the anti-hunting claim: Ceding management to state agencies will result in predator extirpation. Jerry disagrees: “I've not found that to be the case ... state agencies do a remarkably good job of maintaining viable populations ... they're not into the extirpation business.” (Jerry, [38:31])
• Management outlook has improved dramatically since the 1950s: “It's changed for the better. And not just us but, I mean, worldwide, for the better.” (Jerry, [39:17])

Sustainable Use and Food Systems

• Sustainable Hunting as Food:
  • “Sustainable use of wildlife as a food source will never replace commercial agriculture … but it’s another food system … just like aquaculture, commercial fisheries, domestic livestock, crop agriculture.” (Jerry, [40:31])
  • Importance of food system redundancy and resiliency ([41:00]).

Science vs Values: The Great Conflation

• Weaponization of Science:
  • “It’s almost like a weaponization of science ... cherry picking certain facts to support a position.” (Jerry, [41:40])
  • Science is not meant to declare which value is “right”; it describes likely outcomes of chosen value-based actions ([43:40]).
    • “Science cannot tell you if a value’s right or wrong ... The value is independent of the science.” (Jerry, [43:40]; [44:02])
    • Example: Wolf harvest rates—science can show the population effect, not dictate if that's desirable.
  • Despite scientific evidence, people often cling to their values; “You are never going to satisfy all of your constituents ... It's not possible.” (Jerry, [48:07])

Memorable Quotes & Moments

• “The role of science is to help inform the outcomes of value-made decisions. ... I’ve worked really hard in my career to stay true to that objectivity.” (Jerry, [13:24])
• “Sustainable use of wildlife as a food source will never replace commercial agriculture ... But it’s, to me, it’s another food system, if you will, just like aquaculture, commercial fisheries, domestic livestock, crop agriculture.” (Jerry, [40:31])
• “It's almost like a weaponization of science, if you will, where it's selective cherry picking, if you will, certain facts to support a value, support a position.” (Jerry, [41:40])
• “You are never going to satisfy all of your constituents; it's really not possible.” (Jerry, [48:07])

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Notable Timestamps

• Academic nostalgia & introductions: [01:00]–[06:15]
• Changing face of science communication: [10:40]–[12:07]
• Objectivity, values, and “pay-to-play” science: [12:07]–[15:55]
• Lion research & population estimation breakthrough: [16:05]–[22:45]
• Human-carnivore relationships & emotional spectrum: [23:15]–[29:00]
• Coexistence, fear in wildlife, and elephant case study: [29:07]–[36:15]
• Land use change and population pressure: [36:58]–[37:52]
• State-level management & wolf population example: [37:52]–[41:00]
• Values vs. science and public policy: [41:40]–[47:17]
• Can science change values?: [47:17]–[48:07]
• Coolest carnivore work stories (Serengeti, Alaska bears): [49:07]–[52:31]

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Conclusion

This episode provides a rare, unfiltered view into the nuanced interplay of science, ethics, and values at the heart of carnivore conservation. Dr. Belant’s insistence on scientific objectivity, coupled with his recognition that management must acknowledge deeply rooted and diverse human values, offers a potent reminder: conservation decisions are as much about people as they are about wildlife. The conversation is loaded with real-world examples—lions, bears, elephants, and wolves—and pulls no punches in discussing the challenges, successes, and inevitable controversies in managing apex predators.

For anyone wrestling with “whose values matter” in conservation, this episode is essential listening.

Transcript

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[Robbie]

So a blast from my past. Jerry Gerald Bellunt. We were both assistant professors together at Mississippi State University back in the day and I bumped into him at the CIC General assembly in Vienna, Austria. Jerry is the Boone and Crockett Chair in Wildlife Conservation in the Department of Fisheries and Wildlife at Michigan State University. And we just caught up. Jerry is one of the foremost individuals when it comes to carnivore carnivore ecology all over the world. He is a prolific scientist, publishes over a hundred papers a year, has multiple postdocs, multiple PhDs, multiple master students all over the world, and he's just a joy to be around. I'm a big fan of Jerry. It was so good to cross paths with him and slap a podcast headset on his head. And unbelievably, this is his first podcast ever. So, but fascinating conversation. I know you'll love it. Two scientists geeking out about carnivores. What could go wrong? Enjoy.

So 5 years ago there was a reason why I started this movement. And the truth then is the truth now that we need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around what we do and who we are. There's a sweet spot with a gun, you know, too heavy and it's a

[Jerry Belant]

burden to walk with.

[Robbie]

Too light and you whipping it. Why is the project so important to the hunting community?

[Jerry Belant]

It's. It's a. I think it's not only

[Robbie]

important, I think it's. I think it's vital.

[Jerry Belant]

I think it's, it's just in time.

[Robbie]

It's like snakes and ladders.

You guys are climbing the ladder and

[Jerry Belant]

then somebody does something Stupid.

[Robbie]

And you just slide down. That is such an amazing analogy.

Snakes and ladders.

[Jerry Belant]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

You know, ivory, in my opinion, was the plastic of its age. Okay.

[Jerry Belant]

The expenses were going up. It goes a long way with families. We are families that do need it.

[Robbie]

Let me close this door because I have a little wiener dog. What are you laughing Because I said wiener?

[Jerry Belant]

I'm really glad you finished the sentence out. I'm sorry the first happened. What are we doing here today?

[Robbie]

You're telling the whole world. Yeah. Sound good? We're surrounded by Germans. Oh, look, you are pretty good. You are pretty good. Look at this fortuitous meeting of two young assistant professors. Exactly how long ago was that? That was.

[Jerry Belant]

Yeah.

[Robbie]

It could be 2000.

[Jerry Belant]

Yeah. Because you came in January of 2009. Right.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Jerry Belant]

And I was.

[Robbie]

You were really there.

[Jerry Belant]

2008. So just like four months apart.

[Robbie]

That's unbelievable.

[Jerry Belant]

I know.

[Robbie]

And it's unbelievable that our worlds are like. I was like, oh, we're here in Vienna, Austria. No. Hey, Jerry. Exactly. And you also just popped into my life a week and a half ago. You sent me an email out of the blue.

[Jerry Belant]

Yes.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Jerry Belant]

Just because I knew of the Origins

[Robbie]

foundation and humbled that you actually knew about what we were doing.

[Jerry Belant]

I absolutely know it. Many people do. And I think it's great what you're doing.

[Robbie]

Thank you, man.

[Jerry Belant]

No. No worries.

[Robbie]

Yeah. So we were young assistant professors at Ms. State University back in the day.

[Jerry Belant]

Yes.

[Robbie]

Jerry Balant, I know this is going to be a tough question for you to answer. Is there a. Is there a bigger carnivore biologist than you in the world right now?

[Jerry Belant]

Oh, I'm confident there are, but I

[Robbie]

like, come on, come on. How many papers have you published?

[Jerry Belant]

A fair number, I guess.

[Robbie]

You were publishing. You were publishing 100 a year in 2010.

[Jerry Belant]

That's a bit of a stretch, but we.

[Robbie]

Okay, 50 a year. Okay, 50. Let's just say 50 a year.

[Jerry Belant]

But I've been very fortunate to work with a lot of good people over the years.

[Robbie]

You had some great PhD students, some great postdocs.

[Jerry Belant]

Yes, absolutely.

[Robbie]

And those. Those, like, again, those circles now, like, oh, geez, give me her name. She works in Washington now. Washington, Department of Fisheries and Wildlife. Stephanie.

[Jerry Belant]

Stephanie.

[Robbie]

Yeah.

[Jerry Belant]

And now she just transitioned over to director of New Hampshire. Yeah, exactly.

[Robbie]

So like, one of the PhD students that was in your lab, or she a postdoc?

[Jerry Belant]

No, PhD student.

[Robbie]

PhD student. Stephanie Samick. Right.

[Jerry Belant]

Simic. Yes, absolutely.

[Robbie]

Is now, like, the boss.

[Jerry Belant]

Yes.

[Robbie]

Of one of the wildlife agencies in this country. In America.

[Jerry Belant]

Yeah. Doing great. So. No, it's. It's wonderful and it's great, and you know how it is, Robbie. You were there. But it's wonderful to work with these young, aspiring scientists. Just the enthusiasm that you get, it just energizes you. So it's great.

[Robbie]

No, man, it is really, really good.

You just.

Again, I do terrible job of introducing people because typically, the people that I'm talking to are friends of mine. Jerry Belant.

[Jerry Belant]

Yep. I'm Jerry. And right now I am a professor in Boone and Crockett, Chair of Wildlife Conservation at Michigan State University.

[Robbie]

But you're from there, right? You're from Michigan.

Well.

[Jerry Belant]

Or from Wisconsin. Yeah. So it's as close as I could get to home, Robbie. Yep. But it's a really good gig, so I'm appreciative.

[Robbie]

How long have you been there now?

[Jerry Belant]

Deep in there? Like three and a half years.

[Robbie]

Okay.

[Jerry Belant]

And just over. Yeah.

[Robbie]

Do you have less or more than 10 masters or PhD students right now?

[Jerry Belant]

Now, we have a pretty good group right now. It's kind of a mix of.

[Robbie]

You're not answering the question. The reason you're not answering the question is because it's more.

[Jerry Belant]

Yeah, there's maybe a couple more than that, but. But it's a whole range from undergrads that are working on, you know, various science projects up to postdocs. We also have, you know, administrative person and educator, an outreach coordinator, so have broadened just to help get the word

[Robbie]

out, because now it's. And again, maybe this is a sign of the times. Right. And I. Again, I haven't been in the academic institution since 2013 when I left. Is it. Are you. Are you yourself thinking more programmatically, or has the university system started sort of embracing more programmatic things? Because back in the day, again, you know, it was publish or perish.

Yes.

Right.

[Jerry Belant]

Yep.

[Robbie]

But nowadays we've got things like this podcast, right?

[Jerry Belant]

Oh, exactly.

[Robbie]

Starting a podcast or building a program, like a Wild Foods.

[Jerry Belant]

Yes.

[Robbie]

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[Jerry Belant]

Yeah, no, you're right, Robby. And I think it's actually both, both the university and myself. I'm just recognizing the importance, you know, like you say, publish or perish. You know, you often heard of that, you know, especially when you and I were first starting out as assistant professors. It's still important, you know, as scientists. It's our primary currency, if you will, and very important in terms of evaluation, promotion, all of that good stuff. But increasingly we recognize not only as a profession, as academia, as a society, but. But it's so important to translate the science that we do, you know, to the broader publics and to decision makers.

[Robbie]

Has that translation changed since you got involved in 2008?

[Jerry Belant]

Absolutely. Like this podcast, for example. This is an. Podcasts are an incredible medium to get the word out on, in our case, wildlife conservation. And so social media is another one that's really taken off and it's being increasingly used and largely to good effect in terms of just creating awareness of the importance of conservation and many other things.

[Robbie]

Again, things have changed a lot since 2008, 2009. There's also been a rise, and I noticed it in the first six years that I was an assistant professor, a rise of sort of these pay to play publications.

[Jerry Belant]

Right.

[Robbie]

And so anybody can. Anybody can get peer review. Now, how have you felt that sort of come into your field, especially in the wildlife conservation field that we live in? And I'll add one other element. You're a hunter. I'm a hunter. I'm a pro hunting, you know, run a pro hunting organization. You clearly are pro consumptive use, sustainable use of wildlife. Yet there's. There can be people who can publish science, quote, unquote.

[Jerry Belant]

Yes, I'm glad you said that because the listeners wouldn't be able to see the air quotes that you showed.

[Robbie]

Correct.

[Jerry Belant]

So, yeah, there's.

[Robbie]

You're right, but it goes the same way for us. Right. I'm not saying that it's only the antis doing that. It's the pros also saying on both sides.

[Jerry Belant]

Yeah, you can see it on both sides. And to me, what's really important as a scientist is to maintain my objectivity. And part of what I really want to do is simply get the facts out and also to separate science from values, because often, even within our profession, that there's.

[Robbie]

You think values influence their science?

[Jerry Belant]

Yes, and. Well, how I always think of it. And there's probably other ways too, but to me, the role of science is to help inform the outcomes of value made decisions. And I've worked really hard in my career to stay true to that objectivity and to not interject my values. Have you, my work.

[Robbie]

Have you come across a situation where the science has gone against your values?

[Jerry Belant]

Yes. Yep. And so I have my personal values and then I have my professional obligations. And irrespective of the outcome, my job as a scientist is to get that information out. And also I realize that my values aren't static. I can learn, you know, and my values can change based on this knowledge.

[Robbie]

Have you gotten, do you have an example of that? I know I'm putting on the spot.

[Jerry Belant]

You are putting me on the spot.

[Robbie]

And that's, I'm just, I'm just saying like, you know, again, that we've got to be. And I want to be from an origins.

Just.

I'll give you some breathing room so you can think.

[Jerry Belant]

No, that's okay. I'm trying to come up with a.

[Robbie]

But the origins, like the Origins Foundation. Right. We're pro sustainable use.

[Jerry Belant]

Exactly.

[Robbie]

That's what we are.

[Jerry Belant]

But, but, and maybe broad.

[Robbie]

I've also got to be okay. When I see somebody doing something that is not. It doesn't fit with who we are. Yeah, it doesn't. And it doesn't align with who we are. And, or the science is showing, hey, you shouldn't be hunting yet somebody's promoting hunting. I've got to say, hey, we shouldn't be hunting.

[Jerry Belant]

Exactly, you're absolutely right. And like, broadly speaking, my, like you say, Robbie, personally, I'm very pro sustainable use. You know, I'm a hunter myself. Professionally, I'm basically neutral and whatever the science is, is what I put out. And so though I'm pro sustainable use, I'll be the first one to say if something like a situation of over harvest, for example, is adversely affecting a species, I'll be the first one to say it. You know, if I have that information. Even though I'm pro sustainable use, I'm not pro over exploitation, for example.

[Robbie]

So let me dive into. Because this is where I wanted this podcast to go. Let's talk about lions.

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[Robbie]

You know a lot about lions.

[Jerry Belant]

A bit. Yeah.

[Robbie]

What, what's your background? Tell me a little bit of the stuff that you've done on lions.

[Jerry Belant]

Well, I've worked in lions for about five years in Tanzania.

[Robbie]

Okay.

[Jerry Belant]

And a big part of what our work was is to develop low cost alternative to estimating lion abundance. The thing with lions, just like most other large carnivores, is that they're pretty Difficult to get good estimates of.

[Robbie]

Why is that?

[Jerry Belant]

They tend to be low density, cover large spatial extents. And so it's not as much as the technique can't be developed, but it's very expensive to do that over large spatial extents. And for lions, there really wasn't a good low cost alternative for doing that. And so I was charged, so to speak, with trying to develop a technique that could be used to do that very thing, estimate lion abundance over large areas. And so what we did is kind of a series of studies. We first started out.

[Robbie]

But what can you do? It's only cameras, right?

[Jerry Belant]

Well, there's.

[Robbie]

Can you do something else?

[Jerry Belant]

Well, there's cameras, tracks, surveys, Cullen surveys, genetic mark recapture, individual identification. There's kind of a broad range of techniques. But if you think about those, each of those comes with a cost. And that cost is actual dollars for equipment, dollars for DNA analysis, dollars for

[Robbie]

personnel, transport vehicles around, run, run.

[Jerry Belant]

And for lions at that time, the most common technique was track surveys. And initially I was very excited about track surveys because it's low cost in terms of equipment. Basically you need a vehicle, but you also need roads. And someone sitting on the bunk.

[Robbie]

But you also need roads.

[Jerry Belant]

And you need roads. Exactly. But if you had those conditions, there's potential.

[Robbie]

What kind of road density would you need for a truck server to be successful?

[Jerry Belant]

Well, that's the thing is that's never really been addressed. Well, and part of what it was is there had been some techniques developed regarding tract surveys to estimate abundance. And what we wanted to do is basically validate those techniques and try it again, make sure it works, and see if we could refine it in any way to make it even better. And what we found though, is that the track surveys did not work very well. We did our work in the Serengeti ecosystem, you know, Serengeti national park, in adjacent protected areas, you know, immediately surrounding it. But what we found is that there was incredible variability in lion track deposition on the road. Like basically how many times they cross the road. And just like you said earlier, Robbie,

[Robbie]

or one lion walking down the road.

[Jerry Belant]

Yes. And how do you discern that? Also, substrate is a big deal. If you don't have nice sandy or soil, they're not going to lay tracks. If it's mud, you might get lucky, but they don't tend to like to walk in the mud. Yep. And so it's very difficult. And then we found that there's a lot more than having a road and to estimate line abundance, we found moon phase was largely you know, hugely important. As was two line moves. Absolutely.

[Robbie]

Gotcha.

[Jerry Belant]

It has a big influence.

[Robbie]

Oh, for sure.

In distribution of prey. If there's no prey around, why is there going to be a line in?

[Jerry Belant]

There's no lions. And if there's moon, that can alter foraging efficiency of lions because they're much easier to detect. And so there's a lot of things driving that. And what we found is that you can have doing track surveys from one week to the next week, you can get markedly different estimates of abundance, even if you're using the exact criteria recommended. So what we found is that it just didn't work. And there was a lot of reasons for that. So we moved into other techniques. And also like the idea of call in surveys.

[Robbie]

For example, Colleen, I think Colleen, big up at the carnival. NASA carnival project uses call in surveys tremendously.

[Jerry Belant]

Exactly. And there's a lot of folks that have done it. And one of the earlier problems that we had with call in surveys was that lions quickly habituated to the call. You'd play calls of like hyena whoop call, spotted hyena or wildebeest. What we found is warthog really works well. You can turn a lion on a dime with a warthog in distress call.

[Robbie]

Wow.

[Jerry Belant]

But what we found is lions, they habituate. They could pretty much very rapidly figure out that, oh, it's those people in the Land Rover playing calls again, you know, really? And so they would stop coming. And what we found is a detection probability. Maybe 60% of the time when you broadcast, you'd have lions come in. But the second time it might be 30%. The third time it might be 10%.

[Robbie]

Oh, shit.

[Jerry Belant]

And suddenly you realize I cannot get a good estimate because in the types of models we use, you have to remove that habituation and remove that bias because there are other things that affect it. Like if lions have just made a kill, they're not coming in. You know, they have all the food they need. So you have to go repeat repeated times. But what we were able to figure out, Robbie, that I was very excited about, is that we found that by altering the call types in these surveys that you could keep lions coming in and reduce that bias.

[Robbie]

Then a hyena, then a warthog, then a wildebeest.

[Jerry Belant]

Exactly. So we kind of set it up where each time we went out, we played a single lioness roar. Just because that's the smallest unit. And anything can take a single female. You know, if you have two females, they'll push out a single. But we Coupled that with hyena on whoop calls and a prey. And so we'd alternate between warthog, zebra and wildebeest. But each time we'd also change the hyenas whoop call and we'd also change the lioness roar. And what we found is by having different calls that kept the lion's attention,

[Robbie]

that they would come in, reduce the habituation.

[Jerry Belant]

It very much reduced it. And what we were able to do is provide like the first actual credible line abundance estimate for Serengeti National Park.

[Robbie]

Wow. So is anybody now using that technique?

[Jerry Belant]

Yeah, there's a number of people using that technique. And we weren't the ones to originate broadcast, you know, vocalizations. It's been around a long time. But we were the ones to refine it and reduce that habituation such that you can get good population estimates now from it.

[Robbie]

So you've done some line work. What other. You've obviously done a ton of mountain lion.

[Jerry Belant]

Yeah, I've done mountain lion work, done a lot of wolf work. You know, predator, prey relations a lot with bears, a number of carnivores. I've had the good fortune of getting to work with those a fair amount. So.

[Robbie]

So if you, if you want to, if you look across the landscape at your. You all of the carnivores that you work with, is there a common issue people?

[Jerry Belant]

Yeah, it always comes back to us, Ravi.

[Robbie]

Okay, and what is that? Is it a I want to hear from you, like, what is that people issue?

[Jerry Belant]

Oh, it picks something and you can find an example of an issue, you know, between large carnivores and people. As, you know, for anything surrounding humans and large carnivores, you have the entire spectrum of attitudes toward them, you know, ranging from, you know, fascination, passion, you know, to I'd rather not have them around and everything in between. And so it just depends on who that person is, what their occupation is or their relationship to the animal is and what that animal is actually doing.

[Robbie]

What do you think it is in the human psyche that causes such a disparate relationship with these, dare I say I would call them apex predators?

[Jerry Belant]

Right.

[Robbie]

You're not dealing with any other. You might have done some work on lower sort of meso predators, but apex predators, black bears, grizzlies, wolves, lions, I

[Jerry Belant]

think a lot of it. And it's not just one extreme or the other. I suggest it's like every thing in between as well. You know, where you have. You have people that are neutral on it as well. But you do have a relative stronger dichotomy.

[Robbie]

Do you find people that are neutral?

[Jerry Belant]

Yeah, like a lot, A lot. I haven't actually done a survey, but the surveys that have been done by a scientist. Yeah, there's neutral people, sure. Yep. People are just kind of indifferent, you know. Yep. It's less so with a apex predator or large carnivore than like you say with a, with a meso carnivore. But yeah, there's plenty of neutral as well.

[Robbie]

I have this hypothesis that.

[Jerry Belant]

Oh, let's hear it.

[Robbie]

And drawing back to my true science roots, that there is such a disparate relationship with predators because you have on one hand somebody who is the double, you know, triple S crowd, shoot, shovel, shout up kind of crowd. And then you have the I want to cohabitate sort of mentality crowd. Right. That I'm, they're cuddly there, I want to be with them, I want to touch them, I want to be them. That's, that's how far apart the apex predator human relationship is.

[Jerry Belant]

And I think what it is is not that there aren't the neutral, but that there's a larger number on those extremes. And those are the individuals that on average seem to be more vocal. Like you'll hear from them, whereas the ones in the middle, you're not going to hear from them.

[Robbie]

You know, I think we have these extremes. I think we have this, the triple S crowd extreme because of, I think tied to our ancestry, human ancestry, and our relationship with apex predators back through time, I. E. We see them as a competitor. We see them as somebody like, hey, this is something that has been something that I innately have been scared of, innately hate because they've taken my food kind of thing. And then on this hand, it is the, the hand that is I love predator. I love them. I see my. It's that they see human characteristics that they value in this apex predator. They see the maternal nature, they see the strength, they see the confidence. They see like intelligence in the eyes. That's to me two very different.

[Jerry Belant]

Well, what I wonder though, are they actually different or do both of those extremes have different amounts of those same elements? Because I agree with you that maybe we're both wrong, Robby. But I think this whole concept of risk, if you will, you know, as a competitor for food, as a competitor for, with wolves and white tailed deer, for a common prey species, you see that or hear about that a fair amount. You know, also if there is genetic predisposition, you know, humans weren't always the predator that we are now. You Know, you know, within the environment, you know, we're also at risk of predation ourselves, you know, at one time. But then I, I think like those people that may think that way also recognize the strength, you know, of that animal. You know, they may well recognize the maternal instinct. But I think a lot of it too now is just with the relative experiences that we have and how direct those experiences are with the animal that will influence our emotions or feelings toward them.

[Robbie]

Do you have. And again, I'm throwing you on the spot here.

[Jerry Belant]

That's okay. Give it a go.

[Robbie]

I've also got this other sort of. Especially when it deals with apex predators, you hear a lot of coexistence language.

[Jerry Belant]

Yes. Okay.

[Robbie]

I believe that for the majority of. On the sort of this hand, again, the hand that is we want as many predators don't touch a predator, no management allowed of predators is a cohabitation argument, not a coexistence argument.

[Jerry Belant]

Yes, yep, I see what you mean. And I think of coexistence as more broadly co occurring, you know, and part of it too is I think of humans. We are part of the environment, part of the ecosystem, and that means we do have a role, we do interact with these. And with these human conditions that you were just describing, we were just talking about a minute ago. To me, in the extreme ends of that continuum, they're somewhat diametrically opposed. And what we as scientists is to try to understand how the continuum operates in relation to the animals so that people that make management decisions can manage species in a way that accommodates, you know, to the extent possible, that breadth of human experience in relation to it.

[Robbie]

Do you think co occurrence involves these apex predators having a healthy fear of us as humans?

[Jerry Belant]

That would be value oriented. And I, I tend to stay away from the values.

[Robbie]

Such a scientist.

[Jerry Belant]

Come on, it's my role, man. That's my job. I can't even break that for you, Robbie. Sorry, Sorry, buddy. But many people would think that, that,

[Robbie]

Yeah, I, to me again, I guess that's why you're still a professor and I am not. I think that like even look at elephants, I think the reason why we have human conflicts, human wildlife conflicts, the way that we have them, or habitat issues associated with animals is because there is, you know, we are predators in our landscape. We are a part of the system. And when we are removed as those predators, the animals and wildlife that we interact with don't see us as those predators any longer. And we're not creating these. And again, this is a controversial statement. We're not creating these landscapes of fear. Because when I say landscapes of fear, somebody goes, well, that sounds like a bad thing. That doesn't sound like a healthy thing. And if we're seeing that wildlife have these, again, I don't believe have these human characteristics, then it's just a part of nature. That's just how it's been. Right. So, for instance, elephants. I'll use elephants as an example. Kruger national park just came out with a new elephant management plan. And Rich Saori is a phenomenal section ranger in the north of Kruger and he's seen the riverine forests absolutely get decimated, the fever tree forest being absolutely decimated. And the reason being, one of the hypotheses is that, and it's not a hypothesis to the change in, in vegetation is that, you know, back in the day when you used to have elephants in these systems moving through these systems and humans in these systems, because Kruger doesn't have any humans left in the system. They've been removed from the system because of the whole wilderness national park scenario, that these, the places that were landscapes of fear were the rivers because that's where humans lived. And so elephants recognize that as like, hey, that's not a place that I want to be. It's risky for me. I don't like it. Somebody may, you know, one of my brethren again, whether you think they think this way or not, dies. It's just not pleasant. And so we're going to slip in at night to get the water that we need and we're going to slip out and leave it. And then in the grander scheme of habitat quality and vegetation, those same systems, those same areas, those riverine areas, are the ice cream aisles of the grocery store. And so you don't want. If me and you were locked in a grocery store for 30 days, we would park off in the ice cream aisle and we would eat every single tub of ice cream until they were gone. And then we're going to look at each other going, I don't want to go to the KLR, do you?

[Jerry Belant]

Let's figure out not after 30 days, I think.

[Robbie]

No, exactly.

And so that's what's happened with elephants, is that they're. Again, we're going straying off topic here, but I think, and Richard believes, and so does Sam Ferreira now, hey, we need to try and figure out, it's not mass culling, it's clever elephant management in specific areas where they're having this degradated effect.

[Jerry Belant]

Well, is the degradation, is that a consequence of elephants not being killed? Or is it a consequence of elephants losing their fear, if you will, or that risk of the riverine habitat, long term, resulting in population increase is because of a lack of prediction, predation.

[Robbie]

I think what if I had to channel my inner Sam Ferreira? Sam would say, it's not a population issue, it's a locality effect issue.

[Jerry Belant]

Okay, so they're just spending increasing time because of the lack of risk, because

[Robbie]

of the lack of risk. And this is where the good vegetation is and we have water. Why are we going anywhere? And so we have to think outside the box now to say, how do we create a landscape of fear in these environments to give the habitat a break, to be able to regenerate these forests back into what they were supposed to be.

[Jerry Belant]

So you're proposing to introduce some risk along that river, Correct? Yep. And so how.

[Robbie]

And so the same thing for carnivores.

[Jerry Belant]

Exactly. So basically introduce predation or predation risk,

[Robbie]

I should say predation pressure to say,

[Jerry Belant]

hey, will it be human based or will it be apex predator based or both. And how far back would you go in time?

[Robbie]

So I think that we're not, we definitely do not want to get into a rewind scenario. Right. Because that's something that somebody will say, hey, there's again, using elephants. There used to be 4 million elephants. Every single NGO that is protecting elephants say there used to be 400 million elephants. There's only half a million left. We've lost 90% of the elephants. When, when did we have 4 million elephants in Africa? Well, in the whole 1700s. Same thing with grizzlies. Grizzlies to be introduced in California right now.

[Jerry Belant]

Same thing with wolves. And so the land conditions are not the same as they were. And so it's a really important point, and one that a lot of people struggle with, is where are we setting the clock?

[Robbie]

I don't think we should be setting the clock. I think we should recognize that we have a growing human population that has growing pressures on wildlife. And that is the driver. And the whole argument that is, well, humans are the problem. Yes, we are. But you can't say, I'm going to off Jerry because he's the problem. Like this whole rhetoric like get rid of the humans

[Jerry Belant]

and that's the whole thing. Robbie, too, is, you know, one of the biggest drivers of not just large carnivores, but biodiversity more broadly is land use change. And, you know, kind of rivals climate change, you know, in terms of by 2050, which is really not that far away. You know, they estimate as much as 3 1/2 million square kilometers of land will be converted to agricultural production to increase that very population of humans that you were just talking about. And so you're absolutely right. We are the problem. But we need to manage wisely. I think within context, you know, that we're not going anywhere, at least not right now. How do we manage effectively so that we can not cohabitate but coexist?

[Robbie]

Have you. And I haven't. So I'm asking you the question. Have you looked at policies and regulations around predator management, apex predator management? What's your opinion on that? Has it changed to the better? Are we in a better situation? What I'm trying to get at here is there's rhetoric and narrative out there that says, again, let's just use wolves, right? If you relegate wolves to state management, we're going to extirpate them on the state level. We're going to go back to extirpation, we're going to go back to extinction.

[Jerry Belant]

Yes, I've heard that, and Robbie, I've not found that to be the case, so to speak. In the U.S. state wildlife agencies do a remarkably good job of maintaining viable populations of their wildlife. It's functionally a mandate of all the states. Even those states that implement harvest, you know, they're not into the extirpation business. You know, that's not what state wildlife agencies are about. They're about managing the corpus, if you will, or making sure that species is there for future generations. And so they, they do a really good job.

[Robbie]

Do you think that mindset has changed since, say, the 50s?

[Jerry Belant]

Yes, absolutely. It's changed. And broadly, it's changed for the better. And not just us, but I mean worldwide, for the better.

[Robbie]

The better for what?

[Jerry Belant]

The better for coexistence. And coexistence does not mean laissez faire, you know, it can mean sustainable use, you know, because again, we as people or humans, we're part of the system. You know, we evolved as omnivores, which means that not only plants, but we also eat meat. You know, we're evolutionarily adapted to that. And so sustainable use of wildlife to me just makes so much sense. You know, I think about animals that are harvested sustainably every year. They're there, they're doing well. It doesn't mean that we can't do things even better than we're doing today. But I think of the alternatives to that in terms of, you know, is it better to use sustainable wildlife to the extent that you can versus domestic Livestock versus converting forests to corn, for example.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Jerry Belant]

And so sustainable use of wildlife as a food source will never replace commercial agriculture. They can't, of course, you know. Of course. But it's, to me, it's another food system, if you will, just like aquaculture, commercial fisheries, you know, domestic livestock, crop agriculture. They're all food systems.

[Robbie]

And it's significant. Like the stuff that you've been doing, Shane Mahoney's been doing.

[Jerry Belant]

Exactly.

[Robbie]

You know, it's, it's, it's not trivial.

[Jerry Belant]

No, it's not trivial. And it doesn't replace anything. It's complementary. And there's real value in having them, multiple food systems, if you will, for resiliency. And so there's value in redundancy, having multiple systems, because you have change in the amount available through time. And if one system is a little less in a certain amount of time or period of time, another one can maybe help take its place so that we can sustain ourselves better than in the absence of one or more of those systems.

[Robbie]

Now, I asked you the regulation question because obviously we get that a lot with wolves.

[Jerry Belant]

Yeah. The big thing with regulation, Robbie, it seems to me, is that we have a lot of conflation with science and values again. And it's kind of almost like a weaponization of science, if you will, where it's selective cherry picking, if you will, certain facts to support a value, support a position. Exactly.

[Robbie]

Happens on both sides.

[Jerry Belant]

It absolutely does. And to me, like the whole value thing, it's very important. We all, as people have our values, but we need to argue those or discuss those, debate those for the values that they are. And by and large, it's not that a value is right or wrong so much as they differ, you know, but the science over here, it doesn't change. I mean, we can learn more and gain more, but it's meant to be objective and ideally without integration of value, you know, but what happens when you conflate those is that people try to use science to support a value, whereas science is just meant to tell you what the outcome of the value is. But that's a huge problem.

[Robbie]

Do you think it's the way that you just put it sort of framed out in my brain. Do you think then that's the biggest

[Jerry Belant]

issue

[Robbie]

that we face? And I can see this from both sides, the anti side and the pro side. When science that is without value judgments and objective argues that your values are wrong.

[Jerry Belant]

Yeah, and it doesn't work that way. And also too.

[Robbie]

Why doesn't it work that way?

[Jerry Belant]

Because science cannot tell you if a value's right or wrong values are.

[Robbie]

But it can provide you data that shows you whether your values are justified or not.

[Jerry Belant]

Well, not, not really. It can show you what the outcome or likely outcome of that value is.

[Robbie]

Give me an example.

[Jerry Belant]

Okay, so. If you, let's say if you harvest each year 32% of your gray wolf population, your population will in all likelihood decline. Okay, so there's people that would say I don't want the wolf population to decline.

[Robbie]

Right.

[Jerry Belant]

You know, and there's people that would say I want it to decline. Science isn't telling you that wanting a wolf population to decline or not is right or wrong. It's just telling you the outcome that it will likely decline. If that makes sense. And so the value is independent of the science. They're separate arguments. But science informs that outcome. But it can't tell you that value is right or wrong because whether it's right or wrong is of course value based, not science based.

[Robbie]

So maybe I can, maybe I'll, maybe this is overly simplistic. So I see science that says, and I'll use, let's use Idaho as an example. Because I use Idaho a lot. Idaho has,200 wolves. They harvest 400 plus or minus every year. Population is fairly stable around thousand 2,200 wolves. They have every mechanism under the sun to take a wolf out. Okay. Somebody would say state management of wolves will lead to wolf extubation. I, we do not believe in state management wolf. The value that I have is I don't believe in wolf management. Yet here's the science that shows that the data saying, the science is saying that even at this level of whatever it's not 32%, whatever it is. Right. Is not having an effect on the wolf population. Did I mess up? Did I miss values in science?

[Jerry Belant]

Yes, because. Well, not. I shouldn't say you messed it up, but I guess my. What is that person's value exactly?

[Robbie]

Maybe I didn't, maybe I didn't project

[Jerry Belant]

a value because that person's value wouldn't be to say like wolves will become extirpated. That's more a statement. More statement, more objective. The value would be I don't want wolves to be extirpated or I don't want wolves to decline. That would be the value, if that makes sense.

[Robbie]

Okay, so in that value, if the value is I don't want wolves to decline and the science shows that they don't, even though you take, you harvest them, does the science prove your value? To be wrong.

[Jerry Belant]

No. Nope. The science says the outcome is different than your value. If you wanted them to do that.

[Robbie]

Okay.

[Jerry Belant]

Yep.

[Robbie]

Okay. The outcome is different to the value.

[Jerry Belant]

Exactly.

[Robbie]

You can have your value, but it's wrong.

[Jerry Belant]

No, it's not. No, it's not wrong.

[Robbie]

I'm playing Devil's Advil.

[Jerry Belant]

I know you are, but you still may desire a certain outcome. But if the science says the outcome is not likely to be that, that wouldn't actually change your value. You'd still want that. It just isn't happening.

[Robbie]

So then let me. So I purposely did this because do you think then that's the issue writ large. Like when you take a step back and you go to the 50,000 foot level, that regardless of the outcome of

[Jerry Belant]

science, people still have their values.

[Robbie]

People still have their values and their values won't change sometimes. Your value will never change, regardless of the outcome.

[Jerry Belant]

Exactly. And when you go back to the apex predators, the real challenge is that you have that broad continuum of values that are skewed to the extremes more than they are for other species.

[Robbie]

That's where we started with.

Exactly.

[Jerry Belant]

Exactly. How can you possibly. You actually cannot manage for that full continuum evenly, so to speak. So what many agencies do is they strive to do well. They all do the best they can and they all do a good job. But you try to manage for as broad as you can, recognizing in something controversial, like large carnivores typically are, you are never going to satisfy all of your constituents. You know, it's really. It's not possible.

[Robbie]

So as we, as we wrap this up, obviously you've done a lot of carnival work.

[Jerry Belant]

Yep, a fair amount.

[Robbie]

So tell me, I want to know the coolest carnival project you think you've done.

[Jerry Belant]

Boy, that's actually kind of hard. And I think I would.

[Robbie]

Oh, give me the coolest place that you've done carnival work.

[Jerry Belant]

I go back.

[Robbie]

Serengeti is pretty cool. Yep, Serengeti's pretty cool for somebody from Wisconsin.

[Jerry Belant]

Exactly. It's very cool. The other is really cool is the work I was able to do in Alaska with brown bears. That was also very cool. Completely different, of course, than the Serengeti, but both just amazing.

[Robbie]

What'd you do in Alaska?

[Jerry Belant]

A couple of things. Looked at brown bear co occurrence with black bears to figure out how these two species partition resources and coexist, not cohabitate, but coexist on the landscape. And then also looked at.

[Robbie]

And it's true. Right. They don't really cohabitate. They occupy different niches in the Ecosystem.

[Jerry Belant]

Exactly, exactly. You know, they live broadly on the same landscape but they use the resources differently that allows them to coexist. Coexist. But in the case there of course some with their body size, brown bears dominate, you know, so black bears kind of operate around the edges, so to speak of what the brown bears niche is.

[Robbie]

Okay. So that you did coexistence. Anything else?

[Jerry Belant]

Coexistence. Also looked at harvest management of brown bears like on the Kodiak Archipelago. And as you know, brown bears on Kodiak are huge, incredibly popular as a both not only for hunting, sustainable use hunting, but also for tourism, you know, so very popular. And we evaluated Alaska Department of Fish and Games management strategy on brown bears and found they did a fantastic job. They have a conservative harvest of bears so they can do it sustainably and allow that population to actually increase, if you will. So remarkable job. And. And it's a great example of meeting multiple stakeholder preferences and uses in the same landscape.

[Robbie]

And brown bear management is pretty tricky because of long gestation periods, right? As I understand it.

[Jerry Belant]

Yeah. Or not even. Yeah, they have long gestation but that long time to wean.

[Robbie]

Long time to wean. Sorry, that's what I meant.

[Jerry Belant]

Exactly right, exactly right.

[Robbie]

Between cub times is exactly that interbirth

[Jerry Belant]

interval we often think of it as can easily be three years. And so recruitment is slow. But they're also long lived species though, as you know. And so in species like that you tend to need more conservative harvest than you would say on white tailed deer for example. And they have a low relative harvest on the archipelago and what it's resulted in is a very robust and vibrant population that actually is increasing in size through time. So they've done a great job, you know, of allowing sustainable use of that resource, both consumptive and non consumptive through viewing and observation. So yeah, it's great.

[Robbie]

Amazing.

[Jerry Belant]

So yeah, two awesome areas.

[Robbie]

Amazing. Well Jerry, it's been a pleasure to have our paths crossed. And now that they've crossed, I'm sure there's going to be plenty opportunities in the future.

[Jerry Belant]

No, that sounds wonderful. It's been great to see you after all these years. Great to be on.

[Robbie]

You're way greater than me, so. But we both are gray. We both are getting gray.

[Jerry Belant]

Absolutely.

[Robbie]

Good to see you, bud.

[Jerry Belant]

You betcha.

[Robbie]

Well, that's it for today. Appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.