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The Origins Foundation Podcast
Episode 655 - James Meager || Conservation Wins!
00:41:13
Minister for Hunting and Fishing, Hon James Meager, joins the podcast as a return guest to give some breaking news for conservation and hunting in New Zealand. Both Wapiti and Sika have been designated as New Zealand’s first two Herds of Special Interest (HOSI). What does this mean for those two species in New Zealand moving forward? Listen to the podcast to find out more
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- [00:00]
A
The honorable James Meagher joins me today on a very, very cool podcast. James reached out to me and said, robbie, I want to be on the podcast because I have some massive, massive news. I said, okay, come on, let's talk about it. Well, the last time James was on the podcast, we talked about the herds of special interest and the Game Animal Council amendment that has passed through the parliament and the idea of protecting or managing the Sika and Wapiti herds. The amount of work that has happened, decades worth of work by Cam Speedy and Roy Sloan at the Wapiti foundation and Seeker Foundation. And now the honorable Minister James Meager making an announcement that is a game changer for hunter led conservation efforts in New Zealand. So listen to the podcast, listen to the announcement, celebrate the announcement and tell everybody the amazing work that hunter led conservation is doing in New Zealand. Enjoy. So five years ago, there was a reason why I started this movement. And the truth then is the truth now that we need to champion our narrative. We need to champion the truth around what we do and who we are. There's a sweet spot with a gun, you know, too heavy and it's a
- [01:23]
B
burden to walk with. Too light and you whipping it.
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A
Why is the project so important to the hunting community? It's, it's a. I think it's not only important, I think it's. I think it's vital. I think it's, it's just in time.
- [01:35]
B
It's like snakes and ladders. You guys are climbing the ladder and
- [01:40]
A
then somebody does something stupid and you just slide down. That is such an amazing analogy. Snakes and ladders.
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B
Yeah.
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A
You know, ivory, in my opinion, was the plastic of its age. Okay.
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B
The expenses were going up.
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A
It goes a long way with families.
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B
We are families that do need it.
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A
Let me close this door because I have a little wiener dog. What are you laughing? Because I said wiener. I'm really glad you finished the sentence out. I'm sorry, the first half. What are we doing here today? You're telling the whole world. All right, one of us is evening and I've got something I can, I can enjoy. I think this happened the last time too. Like, I was drinking an alcoholic beverage and you were like, well, I can't really drink. It's ten o' clock in the morning. Okay. I got coffee or tea. I love the fact that. And we've had a huge week. I'll just tell you this, this podcast is gonna, is dropping. We've had a huge week. We just literally. National Geographic's Instagram just posted One of my videos. Wow. It's 269 million followers.
- [02:58]
B
Can you. Can you. Can you drop them a line and get them to share one of mine as well? I think they'd go well for me.
- [03:03]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, you know, I'm in. I'm in. Yeah. It's unbelievable. And it's just like, you know, and then the only. I know. You're the Honorable Minister James Mega. I call you James. I call you Nigger Mega. You know, you're the only hunting and fishing minister in this entire world. You know that, right?
- [03:29]
B
Right? Yeah, I do. I do. And. And we've had two, so we must be doing it twice as good as the rest of the world. Right?
- [03:36]
A
Exactly. And the fact that, you know, I can text you, you reached out and said, hey, Robbie, I want to come back on the podcast. We've got some news that we want to deliver. I was like, any time, any. At any moment of the hat, if the only hunting and fishing minister in this world texts me and goes, hey, we need to talk, we will talk.
- [03:59]
B
Well, Robbie.
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A
So welcome. Welcome back, Honorable Minister James.
- [04:03]
B
Great to be back with both at home. You get excited when National Geographic shares your stuff. I get excited when you share my stuff. So you're my national. You're my. You're my python.
- [04:13]
A
Yes. Look, man, you are. You're doing some amazing stuff there, man. You've got. Obviously, you don't just have the hunting and fishing portfolio, Andy. You have lots of other things. Talk about economic upliftment, airports. But there's just so much good happening, it feels like, in the sustainable use space in New Zealand. You're obviously very pro the sustainable use side of things. And you're not. You're not, you know, you don't shy away from saying, hey, I hunt. I went to Echo and get my own meat off the mountain.
- [04:46]
B
Right. Yeah. We've had some wild weather here over the past couple of weeks. I was supposed to go out with the deer stalkers in the Wairapa and a few of the tracks got washed out. But no, I mean, we're a hunting culture, a hunting nation. If you think of, you know, I'm Mori as well. If you think of generations of Mori who gathered food off the land, Mahinga Kai is the word for that traditional food gathering traditions. So it's just, in my view, in my perspective, a different version of that. And for New Zealanders who have had these animals in our country for, you know, 1880s, 1890s, I think the first one might even be before that the first deer were introduced. They've been here for a long time. Those traditions are part of our culture. And so I just think, and I think you probably take the same view. It's all about balance. It's all about taking a sensible, balanced approach to the impact that we all have animals have on our environment and how we can better manage them. And you know, I think July is a big month for us in the hunter league conservation space, and it's great to be able to be here to help share a bit with your audience about what's going on.
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A
It is 2026, and my friends, big changes have happened in the world of firearm suppressors. The $200 tax stamp fee is now gone. Huge win for hunters, huge win for shooters, and a huge win for your wallets. If you're thinking about elevating your shooting experience and adding a suppressor, Silence Essential is the best way to shop. And you don't even have to get off your couch to do it. Go to silenceessential.com, browse hundreds of suppressor options. They literally have all of the popular makes and models. Then their experts will walk you through setting up your account, creating a free NFA trust, and then submitting your application to the atf. Once approved, Silence Essential ships your new suppressor directly to your door. That's when you're going to have to essentially get off the couch. It's a game changer, guys. You haven't done it yet. Do it. The old days of waiting eight to 10 months on a suppressor are gone. It's more like two weeks. Some have even gotten their suppressors in shorter timeframes. It's never been easier to start shooting suppressed. Get started today by visiting silencer central.com it's really the simplest way to get your suppressors. Bushnell is eager to help you get set up for conservation success. That's right. They want to help you. The conservation and research community is dominated by good people doing good things and investing significant time and effort for the benefit of habitat and the species. So what do you need to do? Pretty simple. Send us your conservation story and or your conservation wish. Could be managing whitetails. Could be understanding your environment or species or something else related to conservation. What would you be able to do if you had a great trail camera setup? We will select the best story every other month and send you a camera bundle. Cell camera, normal, SD camera, SD cards as well as optics. Everything you need to get set up for success. I can't wait to see what you Submit, you can email us, DM us, message us, whatever you want. We are not hard to find. Good luck. Okay, don't skip past this. This isn't your regular ad. This is me asking a favor of you, our listener. We have a new YouTube channel specifically for our podcast, the Origins Foundation Podcast. Just Google it, put it in YouTube and, and subscribe and then share it with your friends. That's where we're going to have all of our podcast videos in one spot. So if you don't want to just listen to this in your vehicle, you want to watch it on YouTube as you are sitting working during the day, put it on your headphones and listen and watch at the same time. I need you to subscribe to the Origins foundation podcast channel on YouTube. You know me, just randomly, I'm going to pick probably one or two or three YouTube subscribers to the new podcast channel and send you something. We've got great partners that give us free stuff to give away. Why not give it to you guys? So go ahead and subscribe. The Origins foundation podcast channel. Not only you're going to watch some cool podcasts, but you could win some cool stuff, too. Yeah, I want to add a little bit to that because I just. And I'll share this paper with you because I think you'll find it fascinating. I read a paper about wildlife management and they talked about two concepts, one of rationality and one of proportionality. And it's tied to elephant management, but it really relates to any wildlife management, which is especially in the New Zealand context. All of your deer species, all of your animals, are essentially invasive. And yes, is it the ideal to take them all off the landscape for somebody, for some people's philosophy it is. But when you start thinking about a rational way of doing things, if you just start thinking about the proportionality of activities in how you would execute a herd reduction strategy, you have to start thinking about, obviously, regulatory mechanisms, but also you've got to start thinking about logistics. And is it practical, and is it actually practical to say, given the topic at hand, that we are going to and are able to eradicate all the Sikhatiya, are able can eradicate all the tar, can we eradicate all the wapiti? And I think most rational people would say no, yeah, it's not possible.
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B
I think if you look at the evidence of decades of, I guess, attempts to try and do just that, it hasn't worked and it will never work. Partly for practical reasons, everyone thinks we're this tiny little country at the bottom of the world. We're actually quite a large geographic country, especially for our population. And so if you just think of the terrain challenges, the geographic challenges, the financial challenges, we're not a wealthy enough country to, to pour the resource into doing that, quite frankly. So from a practical perspective, and you're
- [11:07]
A
Middle Earth, let's be honest, it's Middle Earth, it's Lord of the Rings, Middle Earth.
- [11:12]
B
And that's right. And so from a practical perspective, the answer's gotta be no. People have tried. We just, I think, practically don't have the resource. And then if you look at the political and maybe the cultural side, actually, I think unless you sit on the extremes of this argument, there isn't a desire for complete eradication and even that term invasive, but that's a loaded term. That's a term that's used to connote some sort of threat or invasion or disaster. And we all know that when you use those terms or when sort of the extreme parts of the movements use those terms, they're trying to invoke a particular response, an emotional response. If you take an approach to this where you say, well, actually why not think of them as introduced? And when you think of them as introduced, you then take a bit more of a balance managed approach. We're introduced, everyone comes from somewhere. And you're right, the only mammal species in New Zealand are bats, you know, but they come from somewhere at some point as well. And you've then got to take the approach, okay, if it's about what are the impact that these animals are having on our environment, on our conservation state, compared to the value that they hold with a lot of New Zealanders, it can't be all eradication and it can't be just letting them all to roam free and have browse levels that are actually impacting our biodiversity, you've got to meet somewhere in the middle. And so one of my tasks, I think over the coming years is to try and pull away from the extremes. And that can be on the hunting side of things as well. We can get very passionate about conservation efforts, about hunter elite conservation, and you can use loaded terms for some of the more extreme environmental voices out there. But at the end of the day, whether you're a conservationist, a recreational tramper, a hunter, we're all got a shared love and passion, which is to be out in the outdoors. And we just have different methods and different ways of protecting that passion. And I think, you know, you with your hunterlear conservation efforts globally, the movements we're starting to make here in New Zealand, the work of the Wapiti Foundation, Seeker foundation and all the other foundations around New Zealand. If you can get a community led initiative and you get some of the more extreme environmental voices involved in that movement, you're going to get better outcomes. And I think that's the starting point we move from.
- [13:36]
A
So the last time you were on this podcast, we were talking about, and I hope that you took my advice to heart the last time and talked about hoes. So not a hozy. Okay. I even try to convince Corinna Jordan to call this.
- [13:56]
B
It's a work in progress for me. I'm on board the way it's spelled. It's great. To me it's a hosie. There's not two S's. But look, we'll work on kiwis. Kiwis, we garble and mangle our vowels and our consonants at the best of times. So look, leave that as a. To do as a work on for me.
- [14:14]
A
Perfect, perfect. So last time you were here, we talked about the herds of special interest, which was this potential management. I don't even know if management's the right terminology here, policy framework to be able to say, okay, guys, we recognize that these two, and it was for Wapiti and Sika, these two things, people cherish them. There's hunter led conservation groups that work on them. There's hunter led conservation groups that manage them. They do sort of value adds to that management. They do trail maintenance, they do hut maintenance. They do all sorts of things. They do trap lines for pests, for stoats, for cats, for rats, hedgehogs. They do it all. And there's a value to these species, to these guys. Recreational hunting. Yes, absolutely, a value. The Wapiti even has a ballot system, so they're generating funds to be able to do all of this great work. It's not a burden on the taxpayer. And so, hey, let's try and move this process forward, which was the herds of special interest, the hosie. Last time we were together, it was being, I think if I remember correctly, it was being brought forward as the Game Animal Council amendment and it hadn't even gotten to parliament. So how about we pick up like what it took to get from there to like, you know, where we are. Well, before we say where we are today, how to get to the parliament, essentially.
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B
Yeah. So there's a two track pathway that we've moved on in the past. I guess it's probably been about 12 months since we last caught up. There are a couple of side issues at play here. So one is, you're right, these herds have particular value and a special place in the hearts and minds of New Zealanders, particularly hunters, particularly in those parts of the country, Fiordland and the Central Plateau, Central North Island. Now, Fiordland presents a particular challenge in that Wapiri exist in the national park. And so that's the first track, the first pathway was an amendment to the Game Animal Council act to confirm and clarify our view, which has always been our view, that you can designate a herd of special interest in a national park. There was some back and forth and some contention and some slightly contradictory parts of different bits of legislation. The National Parks act says you must exterminate as far as possible. The Game Animal Council act says you can designate a herd of special interest in a national park. Will, of course, the process of designating a herd of special interest is not an elimination or eradication process. It's, as you mentioned before, a management process where you manage the herd for its hunting values. We will end up with fewer animals, but healthier, better quality animals, better quality meat, better quality heads. There was an apparent contradiction between those two. And so we took the steps of saying, to avoid all doubt, to avoid litigation, conflict, controversy, we will take the bull by the horn, so to speak, and pass a law which says that you can designate a herd of special interest in a national park. Now, we thought we could always do that anyway, but passing that law makes it clear, makes it certain that a herd of special interest can be designated in a national park. And for us, our immediate focus was the Wapiti herd down in Fiorland. Now, the second track pathway to that has been the herd of special interest process itself, which sits outside that law change and is a, to be quite frank, very long, very consultation heavy, very technical process of receiving a proposal to designate a herd of special interest going out to the public. There are statutory stakeholders that we have to engage with and I need to make this clear to anyone who has some concerns about consultation or who gets to have input into this. The statute itself says we must engage with conservation authorities, forest and birds, local IWI community interested parties. There are a very wide and in depth list of individuals and groups that we have to consult with when we're trying to propose these herds of special interest. So that's the pathway that's running alongside the legislative change. That is where we have culminated in July to the point where we're basically, we're now in a position to designate two herds of special interest. So that's how it's been running and that's how we've gotten to the point where we are today. So one thing to give some certainty around national parks, particularly for Fiorden, the other thing is to get some of these herds of special interest actually in motion and in play. In 13 years since the law was actually passed, we've actually been able to do it.
- [19:05]
A
So you moved, you did all the consultations, an enormous amount of consultation. Got it to the point where it was like, all right, now we're going to move the herds of special interest into Parliament. And it now needed readings, second reading, third readings, all those things. Now we've gone through that entire process too, right?
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B
Yeah. So the. That was for the law change for the game animal.
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A
The law change. That's right.
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B
That went through, introduced early last year. Six month select committee hearings in person, written submissions, debates in the Parliament, you know, over about 12, 14, 16 months. So quite a substantial, lengthy process for what was actually quite a small law change. It was only a six or seven clause bill. And if you think some of the bits of legislation that go through are 4, 5, 600 pages, quite a significant process for a very small. But I think people think a significant change, which is fair enough. And then you've got the actual process of designating a herd of special interest which strictly sits outside of Parliament's mechanisms, but is a process that the Minister is responsible for. So that's myself working with the department, working with the Game Animal Council, the community organisations that might be asked to deliver the management of those herds. So Fiorden Wapiti foundation, the Seeker foundation and then all of the other interested parties. And that started in April, May last year. I think that's probably when we were talking and we're now in July 2026. So you can see a significant amount of work and time and effort has gone into this, importantly to get it right. They're the first ones. We want to get them right, we want to make sure that they withstand any potential challenge. Because, you know, this is a free and democratic country. People have the ability and the right to challenge decisions of people like myself. But I'm confident that we've done, done the right thing in the right way to get into a position where, you know, I would like to think that where we ended up at is essentially bulletproof.
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A
So this podcast is dropping. It is July 15th when this podcast
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B
drops and I've had a very good week. Well, the country has had a very good week.
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A
Very good week. And so you're on this podcast Right now to tell us this week has been amazing for New Zealand because of what, James?
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B
Well, this is the week where that two years of work for me, but 13 years of work for the sector has culminated in the very first two herds of special interest being designated this week. And so I was very, very proud to be able to be there in person, first of all, in Te Anau with the Fiorden Wapiti foundation to designate the country's first herd of special interest for the Wapiti herd in Fiordland, in the Wapiti area. And then why stop with one, right? Why not make it a week of celebration? So also very proud to be up in Taup Central north island plateau with the Seeker foundation, the Game Animal Council, to announce and formalise the designation of the country's second herd of special interest and the first in the north island for the Sika herd in the Kaimana and Kaweka forest parks. I think we need to stop and pause and realise how significant that is. You're talking about an act that was passed 13 years ago to provide this opportunity and it's taken over a decade worth of advocacy, I think, by the hunting sector, by those foundations provided proving that what they do on the land actually works, they actually improve the conservation values. If you look at the work of Roy and the team down in Fiordland, you look at the state of their state in the areas where they manage the browse levels are lower, the biodiversity is better in the areas that they control and they manage compared to outsider, that is the proof point that this kind of approach really, really works. And so it's testament to years and years of work by them. And then if I can have a little bit of self congratulations, a government that has focused on this being a priority for us in the hunting and fishing space, and it is only really when you put energy, time, resource, and I think, to be fair, a little bit of political capital into making this work is when you actually get the result. So very, very big month for the hunting community in the fact that we've now got our first two herds of special interest in New Zealand.
- [23:44]
A
Well, let me be the first person on this podcast on this platform to not just say that you had a little bit of a stake in this. You had a huge stake, Niga. You were the one who pushed it. We needed somebody like you. We needed a hunting and fishing minister that believed in what Sika and Wopiti were doing. We needed somebody to champion the hoses and that's what you took and you championed It. Even though. And I watched the parliamentary speeches of people calling this a trophy hunting herd of special interest, and the things that typically would come from the other side. And you stood strong. And that's what we believe in from a wildlife conservation perspective. When you strip it back, you strip it back of the idea that we are hunters. And I get it, people hate the idea that we hunt. But you cannot deny the benefits that are being seen and realized on the ground by the Wapiti foundation, by the Sika foundation, because they hunt. End the story. So, cheers. I'm going to choose you with my wine on this side of the world
- [24:49]
B
and mine, by the way, you can come and test this. There is no. There's no additives or preservatives in this. There's Nothing special at 10 o', clock, 11 o' clock in the morning. No look and look, I think you've made a really great case and that's very generous and very kind of you. But we should also acknowledge the work of Todd Maclay, who was the first hunting and fishing minister who took on this portfolio in opposition and actually realised that there was a need to represent and reflect the views of the hunting and fishing community in Parliament and in the ministry. And he was the one that set this up, set me up with the opportunity to be able to deliver it. So I should acknowledge Todd, who spent a lot of time flying internationally, setting up trade deals and still managed to put enough focus in this area so that someone like me can come along as a junior minister, pick it up and really put the time and effort into it. And the second thing I want to touch on is something that you've pointed out in a lot of the back and forth and the debate and the politics about that. One of the messages that's getting spread by people who don't like this idea of having hunters involved in conservation is that this is some sort of Trojan horse for trophy hunting. Well, the reality is, is if you took the extreme approach of eliminating and eradicating all animals in national parks and on our conservation estate, what's the natural outcome of that? The natural outcome is that the only people who would then be able to go hunting would be the wealthy, the elites, the preserve of those who can afford to access private game estates. And the value of those estates would go through the roof. Right. Because no longer can you or I arrive in New Zealand, stay in a hut, walk through the back blocks and get a pristine view with a pristine animal, basically for the cost of a rifle and a bullet that wouldn't be the preserve of all New Zealanders and all of our visitors, it would belong then to the wealthy few who could afford to access those private estates. So I think ironically, those who are saying this is about trophy hunting have done us a favour because they've pointed out the fact that if it weren't for these kind of management approaches and if the drive to eliminate animals in our public conservation land picked up steam and worked, you'd be eradicating an important cultural, recreational, social pastime that everyday kiwis and everyday New Zealanders participate in. Whether you are hunting pigs up in the far north or whether you're taking a trip down to Stewart island with your mates and hunting whitetail, you can do that as a freezing worker, as an accountant, as a clerical worker, as a supermarket worker. It doesn't matter what you are, you can do that and enjoy that with your kids. That wouldn't be the case if the extremists got their way.
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A
Yeah, look, New Zealand, I've said it before and people have challenged me on this and I'm not saying it in a, in any which way. I say New Zealand's the Mecca of hunting. It may not be the mecca of like this is the biggest, you know, you can kill the biggest things. No, I'm saying it because there are no tags, there's no limits, there's no seasons. Phenomenal amounts of crown land, phenomenal vistas. You know, you can hunt six different deer species, pigs, goats, you name it. It's an amazing, amazing place. And you are very much the political, the, the consummate politician. In acknowledging Todd. I will definitely acknowledge Todd too. I met him when I was at the Seeker show two years ago and, and obviously I, you know, we can't not say massive, massive kudos to the two stalwarts of hunter conservation led efforts here in, in, in New Zealand. Number one, Roy Sloan. Roy Sloan who forever slaved away at the Wapiti foundation because he just loves, now he's the executive director and he's getting paid to do the work, which is great. And then you've got Cam Speedy two, you know, an ecologist who just absolutely bleeds, his heart sings when he's in the Kaimanawas. And those two individuals, you know, I put them up against anybody in this world when it comes to the top notch gold star hunter led conservation efforts in this world. And you have two of them.
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B
And you know what happens with those two blokes is they actually nowadays will sacrifice what they love doing most. I'm sure they'd love nothing more than to be out hunting every single day. But they sacrifice that opportunity to instead focus on the wider picture, to set up the systems and the structures and the volunteer groups to go and do the trapping and the track maintenance and the hut maintenance, to fill out the forms, to make the concession applications, to spend their time setting up a future for people like me and you to be able to come and do this stuff. And so we really should acknowledge the immense amount of work that they've put into it. They will, when they decide to finally put their feet up and have a rest and enjoy the fruits of their labour, will reflect on them as being two of our shining lights and leaders in this space. And I know they've both been recognised with higher honours. You know, if we could hand out knighthoods here and there, I'd certainly be putting my hand up for each of them. And I think you're right to acknowledge the work that they've done because they've laid the foundations for these two herds of special interests. But also, you know, if we can prove that this model works, it lays the foundations for more of this kind of program, this management, to roll out. And it should. You raise a really good point about how easy it is to hunt in New Zealand and we are the Mecca, not because we've got the biggest animals and the biggest trophi and the most exotic creatures, but because it's so accessible to everyone. That comes with its challenges. Right? It does take a lot of resource to manage and run these programs. And that's why hosies are important, because, you know, particularly for Wapiti, it confirms that the ballot is something that can happen and gives them some assurance and some surety around that. And all the money that goes into the ballot goes back into management, back into conservation with sica, it will provide a. An option or an opportunity for first, the crown to support management in that area through the Sika Hosie, to make sure we can make it run well. Then there's the wider challenge of how do we make this sustainable over the long run? How do we find the volunteers, the people, the resources, the revenue that we need to ensure this is successful? And that's the next challenge, I think, for us to figure out how do we do this over 5, 10, 15 years and, and not just say, well, that was great for a podcast with me and Robbie, but actually, how do we make sure that in 20 years time, when you're still podcasting and I've got more grays that we can say, yep, this was the start of something really great. The final one. Before I let you run on to the next thing, there's two other organisations I wanted to really acknowledge. One is the Game Animal Council who they helped prepare the applications. They engaged with both the community and also the department to help assist us through the process. They are being delegated responsibility for managing the Sika Hosie alongside the Sika foundation in the central plateau. So for them that's a big step in their evolution as an organization too. They are now a bona fide statutory manager of game animals in New Zealand and it's a huge opportunity for them to prove that their connection to the hunting sector is a good model. The other ones I should acknowledge is the Department of Conservation. They are my officials, my advisors are the ones who put the paperwork together, did the consultation in a version and a process which was new. First time we've done it. Nothing is ever going to be perfect the first time around. But my officials at every step of the way made sure they did their very best to take my instructions on board to make sure that they did this to the highest quality that they could, that they listened to the hunting sector, the conservation sector. And I know there are different views out there around the department, but I think for this instance we need to acknowledge and I think congratulate them for embracing our direction as a government and for delivering on the policies that we've asked them to deliver on. And that's a great part of our system, which is that whether you are a left wing or a right wing or a red or a blue government, the public sector comes in and delivers your policy program. And so I just wanted to acknowledge the work of them and the officials that have done that too.
- [33:25]
A
No, good, good shout there. Good shots. The Department of Conservation doc. And also a big shout. You know, Corinna has done an amazing job as the executive director of the Game Animal Council. She's a, you know, firecracker and, you know, she, she loves her job too and she's done a great job with, with GAK and the Game Animal Council, so.
- [33:46]
B
And it's just herself, right? So it just goes to show that when you get the best of conservation, environmentalism and recreation and hunting, you get great outcomes. It is a really good model and I need to stress for anyone out there who might still have reservations, just come and see what's actually happening in Fiordland and come and see what's happening in the Kaimanaas and Kawekas. If we don't do anything, the reality is, is that no department, no government is ever going to have enough resource to do it on their own. We are always going to rely on, on the goodwill of community, of boots on the ground. And I think this is a really good way of doing that.
- [34:25]
A
And just two questions to finalize this out. So people that are listening to this, they may be completely oblivious to what's happening, they don't. What's. What's the point of this whole thing? What is the point, Miga? Like, what is the point? Why do we need a host?
- [34:38]
B
Well, the fundamental point to all of this is that those of us with half a brain, you know, we do recognise that everything we do in our environment has an impact. When we have browsing species, they have an impact on the environment, right? And so we've got to manage that impact and we've got to make sure we protect the conservation estate and the beauty of our country. If we don't have adaptive management, if we don't have sensible approaches to that, we're going to lose that social license to have those animals here. And you create tension, you create hostility and you already see that. So the point of having a hosie, having a herd of special interest, is to get that balance. It's to say that actually looking across the wide variety of everyone we have in New Zealand, you have people who deeply value our conservation estate and our environment. You have people who deeply value the recreational and social values of hunting. Putting food on the table in the middle of a cost of living crisis is an important as well. And so we need to bring all those different, I wouldn't say competing values, but different values together and have an approach which manages them sensibly. And when you're managing these herds so that the numbers are under control, so that the animals are healthier, the genetics are better, that we're targeting the right animals at the right time, we're reducing the impact on the conservation estate and improving our biodiversity outcomes. And, and you're using the thousands of hours of volunteer hunter work to monitor traps, to do the trap maintenance, to clear the bush, to update the huts. That also improves the recreation opportunities for your trampers and your walkers and your general conservationists. So I really think it's about managing our animals better, managing our environment better and doing it in a way where we think we can prove that it works.
- [36:39]
A
This last question is, and I've heard this a couple of times, is the hose is protecting these two species that happen to be invasive. And we've talked about this already and we've already answered this. But just to put a fine point, that are feral, that are non native, whatever you want to call it, isn't that counter to what you should be doing?
- [37:02]
B
Well, I've had this raised with me and I've always said it's an interesting concept of protecting a species by deliberately going out there and hunting them and trying to reduce their numbers to a manageable level. That's a weird concept of protection. Right? It's hard to say I'm protecting you, by the way, I'm gonna take out your sister and your niece down there, I'm gonna get rid of them. So, look, it's not about protecting a species, it's about realizing the reality of the situation, which is that these animals have been here for over 100 years. Some of the animals have been there longer than people in Parliament. Right. So you could argue, and I'd say this a bit tongue in cheek, some of them have a deeper historical connection to the land than half of our Members of Parliament, you know, depending on what boat you come over on. But the reality is that these animals are here. They do hold a special place for New Zealanders. We've got to recognise that fact, that some people's views don't automatically outweigh other people's views just because you draw a line in the sand at a certain date. So we recognise these animals have value. It's not about protecting animals, it's about managing the impact of those herds in a way which results in good hunting outcomes and good conservation outcomes. At the end of the day, if the only thing you care about is improving the values of our environment and of our conservation estate, you would still support this approach because you're going to get better conservation outcomes than the alternative, which is not to eliminate animals, because it's not being done, it will never be done. We don't have the resources to do it and we don't have the people to do it because hunters are the ones that actually make the biggest contribution to that. It's about managing the values of the conservation estate. So if you enjoy conservation, if you like our environment, you would support this because we are going to get better outcomes and I can almost certainly guarantee that.
- [38:51]
A
Well said. Well said, Miga. I am cheersing you again. Congratulations. Massive week. Two designations Wapiti and Seeker. If you want to learn more, you can find it on the Doc website. You can check us out. We've got a bunch of different videos on our social media. Look at the Wapiti website, look at the Seeker foundation website. All this news will be out in New Zealand again. Massive day. Mass, massive day for hunter that conservation. And cheers to you, buddy.
- [39:21]
B
Well done you, Robbie. And appreciate your support and appreciate everything you're doing for the hunting community around the globe. You're an absolute legend.
- [39:29]
A
You're welcome, bud. Well, that's it for today. I appreciate you listening as always. Leave a review, share it with your friends and most importantly, do what's right to convey the truth around hunting.